Messages in AquaticLife group. Page 1 of 1.

Group: AquaticLife Message: 55650 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/1/2014
Subject: Re: Holiday Greetings
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55651 From: steckermonkey50 Date: 1/15/2014
Subject: Cloudy glass
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55652 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 1/15/2014
Subject: Re: Cloudy glass
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55653 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/15/2014
Subject: Re: Cloudy glass
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55654 From: steckermonkey50 Date: 1/15/2014
Subject: Re: Cloudy glass
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55655 From: Harry Perry Date: 1/15/2014
Subject: Re: Cloudy glass
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55656 From: ptimlin Date: 1/16/2014
Subject: Re: Cloudy glass
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55657 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 1/16/2014
Subject: Re: Cloudy glass
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55658 From: steckermonkey50 Date: 1/20/2014
Subject: Cloudy glass
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55659 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/20/2014
Subject: Re: Cloudy glass
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55660 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/20/2014
Subject: Re: Cloudy glass
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55661 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 1/20/2014
Subject: Re: Cloudy glass
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55662 From: steckermonkey50 Date: 1/20/2014
Subject: Re: Cloudy glass
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55663 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/20/2014
Subject: Re: Cloudy glass
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55664 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 1/20/2014
Subject: Re: Cloudy glass
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55665 From: daydreamdesign13 Date: 1/23/2014
Subject: feeding veggies
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55666 From: megablasto2000 Date: 1/23/2014
Subject: fish aggression and water pump question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55667 From: Amber Date: 1/23/2014
Subject: Re: fish aggression and water pump question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55668 From: deenerzz Date: 1/23/2014
Subject: Re: feeding veggies
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55669 From: daydreamdesign13 Date: 1/23/2014
Subject: Re: feeding veggies
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55670 From: deenerzz Date: 1/24/2014
Subject: Re: feeding veggies
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55671 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/24/2014
Subject: Re: feeding veggies
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55672 From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c Date: 1/24/2014
Subject: Re: fish aggression and water pump question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55673 From: daydreamdesign13 Date: 1/24/2014
Subject: Re: feeding veggies
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55674 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 1/25/2014
Subject: Re: fish aggression and water pump question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55675 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 1/25/2014
Subject: Re: feeding veggies
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55676 From: daydreamdesign13 Date: 1/25/2014
Subject: Re: feeding veggies
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55677 From: daydreamdesign13 Date: 1/25/2014
Subject: Re: feeding veggies
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55678 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/25/2014
Subject: Re: feeding veggies
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55679 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/25/2014
Subject: Re: feeding veggies
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55680 From: daydreamdesign13 Date: 1/25/2014
Subject: Re: feeding veggies
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55681 From: daydreamdesign13 Date: 1/25/2014
Subject: Re: feeding veggies
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55682 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 1/25/2014
Subject: Re: feeding veggies
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55683 From: M Moi Date: 1/25/2014
Subject: Re: feeding veggies
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55684 From: daydreamdesign13 Date: 1/25/2014
Subject: Re: feeding veggies
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55685 From: daydreamdesign13 Date: 1/25/2014
Subject: Re: feeding veggies
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55686 From: deenerzz Date: 1/26/2014
Subject: Re: feeding veggies
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55687 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 1/26/2014
Subject: Re: feeding veggies
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55689 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/26/2014
Subject: Re: G'day all
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55691 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/27/2014
Subject: Re: G'day all
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55693 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/27/2014
Subject: Re: G'day all
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55695 From: megablasto2000 Date: 1/29/2014
Subject: Re: fish aggression and water pump question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55696 From: a777man2009 Date: 1/29/2014
Subject: Sterilizing filter
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55697 From: lisa_lawless2004 Date: 1/29/2014
Subject: Internal filters
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55698 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/30/2014
Subject: Re: Sterilizing filter
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55699 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/30/2014
Subject: Re: Internal filters
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55700 From: deenerzz Date: 1/30/2014
Subject: Re: Internal filters
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55701 From: alasse_au Date: 1/30/2014
Subject: Re: Sterilizing filter
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55702 From: rburrg Date: 1/30/2014
Subject: Plastic mesh and plants
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55703 From: lisa_lawless2004 Date: 1/31/2014
Subject: Re: Internal filters
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55704 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/31/2014
Subject: Re: Internal filters
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55705 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 2/1/2014
Subject: Re: Plastic mesh and plants
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55706 From: rburrg Date: 2/1/2014
Subject: Re: Plastic mesh and plants
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55707 From: rburrg Date: 2/2/2014
Subject: Wild aquatic plants
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55708 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 2/2/2014
Subject: Re: Plastic mesh and plants
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55709 From: rburrg Date: 2/2/2014
Subject: Re: Plastic mesh and plants
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55710 From: ptimlin Date: 2/3/2014
Subject: Re: Wild aquatic plants
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55711 From: rburrg Date: 2/3/2014
Subject: Re: Wild aquatic plants
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55712 From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c Date: 2/3/2014
Subject: Re: Wild aquatic plants
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55713 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 2/3/2014
Subject: Re: Plastic mesh and plants
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55714 From: lisa_lawless2004 Date: 2/3/2014
Subject: Breeding fancy guppies
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55715 From: Bharath Tonse Date: 2/4/2014
Subject: Re: Breeding fancy guppies
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55716 From: Amber Date: 2/4/2014
Subject: Re: Breeding fancy guppies
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55717 From: rburrg Date: 2/4/2014
Subject: Re: Wild aquatic plants
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55718 From: megablasto2000 Date: 2/4/2014
Subject: water pump question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55719 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 2/5/2014
Subject: Re: water pump question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55720 From: sevenspringss Date: 2/5/2014
Subject: Re: water pump question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55721 From: megablasto2000 Date: 2/10/2014
Subject: Re: water pump question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55722 From: megablasto2000 Date: 2/10/2014
Subject: Re: water pump question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55723 From: Amber Date: 2/10/2014
Subject: Re: water pump question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55724 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 2/10/2014
Subject: Re: water pump question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55725 From: sevenspringss Date: 2/10/2014
Subject: Re: water pump question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55726 From: ptimlin Date: 2/10/2014
Subject: Re: water pump question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55727 From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c Date: 2/10/2014
Subject: Re: water pump question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55728 From: megablasto2000 Date: 2/10/2014
Subject: Re: water pump question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55729 From: megablasto2000 Date: 2/11/2014
Subject: Re: water pump question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55730 From: megablasto2000 Date: 2/11/2014
Subject: fishless tank cycling question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55731 From: sevenspringss Date: 2/12/2014
Subject: Re: fishless tank cycling question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55732 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 2/12/2014
Subject: Re: fishless tank cycling question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55733 From: megablasto2000 Date: 2/12/2014
Subject: Re: fishless tank cycling question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55734 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 2/13/2014
Subject: Re: fishless tank cycling question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55735 From: Amber Date: 2/13/2014
Subject: Re: fishless tank cycling question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55736 From: rburrg Date: 2/13/2014
Subject: Re: fishless tank cycling question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55737 From: sevenspringss Date: 2/13/2014
Subject: Re: fishless tank cycling question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55738 From: sevenspringss Date: 2/13/2014
Subject: Re: fishless tank cycling question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55739 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 2/13/2014
Subject: Re: fishless tank cycling question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55740 From: megablasto2000 Date: 2/13/2014
Subject: Re: fishless tank cycling question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55741 From: megablasto2000 Date: 2/13/2014
Subject: Re: fishless tank cycling question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55742 From: megablasto2000 Date: 2/13/2014
Subject: Re: fishless tank cycling question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55743 From: buldog1971 Date: 2/16/2014
Subject: Dalmatian Fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55744 From: pam andress Date: 2/16/2014
Subject: Re: Dalmatian Fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55745 From: megablasto2000 Date: 2/16/2014
Subject: Re: Dalmatian Fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55746 From: megablasto2000 Date: 2/17/2014
Subject: Coating aquarium decorations before submersion
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55747 From: bulldog_bob_sly Date: 2/17/2014
Subject: Water treatment question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55748 From: Amber Date: 2/17/2014
Subject: Re: Coating aquarium decorations before submersion
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55749 From: rburrg Date: 2/17/2014
Subject: Re: Coating aquarium decorations before submersion
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55750 From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c Date: 2/18/2014
Subject: Re: Water treatment question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55751 From: buldog1971 Date: 2/18/2014
Subject: Re: Dalmatian Fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55752 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 2/18/2014
Subject: Re: Dalmatian Fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55753 From: love_animals07 Date: 2/18/2014
Subject: Thin tiger barb suddenly died?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55754 From: sevenspringss Date: 2/19/2014
Subject: Re: Thin tiger barb suddenly died?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55755 From: jett07002 Date: 2/19/2014
Subject: Re: Water treatment question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55756 From: love_animals07 Date: 2/19/2014
Subject: Re: Thin tiger barb suddenly died?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55757 From: love_animals07 Date: 2/19/2014
Subject: Re: Thin tiger barb suddenly died?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55758 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 2/19/2014
Subject: Re: Water treatment question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55759 From: bulldog_bob_sly Date: 2/20/2014
Subject: Re: Water treatment question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55760 From: jett07002 Date: 2/20/2014
Subject: Re: Water treatment question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55761 From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c Date: 2/20/2014
Subject: Re: Water treatment question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55762 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 2/20/2014
Subject: Re: Water treatment question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55763 From: jett07002 Date: 2/21/2014
Subject: Re: Water treatment question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55764 From: Lisa Lawless Date: 2/22/2014
Subject: Re: Breeding fancy guppies
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55765 From: o1bigtenor Date: 2/22/2014
Subject: Re: Breeding fancy guppies
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55766 From: Enid Rodriguez Date: 2/22/2014
Subject: Re: Breeding fancy guppies
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55767 From: Mothermastiff Date: 2/23/2014
Subject: OMG, Java moss EVERYWHERE!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55768 From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c Date: 2/23/2014
Subject: Re: Breeding fancy guppies
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55769 From: jett07002 Date: 2/24/2014
Subject: Re: Breeding fancy guppies
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55770 From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c Date: 2/24/2014
Subject: Re: OMG, Java moss EVERYWHERE!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55771 From: Amber Date: 2/24/2014
Subject: Re: OMG, Java moss EVERYWHERE!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55772 From: fish_go_illini Date: 2/25/2014
Subject: Sprin Auction / Tri County Tropical Fish Society
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55773 From: luvnpeas99 Date: 2/27/2014
Subject: No feeding, nowater changing
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55774 From: deenerzz Date: 2/27/2014
Subject: Re: No feeding, nowater changing
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55775 From: megablasto2000 Date: 2/27/2014
Subject: any way to speed up tank cycling?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55776 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 2/28/2014
Subject: Re: any way to speed up tank cycling?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55777 From: sevenspringss Date: 2/28/2014
Subject: Re: any way to speed up tank cycling?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55778 From: sevenspringss Date: 2/28/2014
Subject: Re: any way to speed up tank cycling?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55779 From: Mothermastiff Date: 2/28/2014
Subject: "Moss" is probably algae - more problems
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55780 From: Amber Date: 2/28/2014
Subject: Re: "Moss" is probably algae - more problems
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55781 From: ptimlin Date: 2/28/2014
Subject: Re: No feeding, nowater changing
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55782 From: luvnpeas99 Date: 2/28/2014
Subject: Re: No feeding, nowater changing
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55783 From: ptimlin Date: 3/1/2014
Subject: Re: No feeding, nowater changing
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55784 From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c Date: 3/3/2014
Subject: Re: No feeding, nowater changing
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55785 From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c Date: 3/3/2014
Subject: Re: "Moss" is probably algae - more problems
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55786 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 3/3/2014
Subject: Re: "Moss" is probably algae - more problems
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55787 From: Ben Sharvy Date: 3/3/2014
Subject: Re: No feeding, nowater changing
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55788 From: deenerzz Date: 3/3/2014
Subject: Re: No feeding, nowater changing
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55789 From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c Date: 3/4/2014
Subject: Re: No feeding, nowater changing
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55790 From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c Date: 3/4/2014
Subject: Re: "Moss" is probably algae - more problems
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55791 From: luvnpeas99 Date: 3/4/2014
Subject: Re: No feeding, nowater changing
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55792 From: deenerzz Date: 3/4/2014
Subject: Re: No feeding, nowater changing
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55793 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 3/4/2014
Subject: Re: "Moss" is probably algae - more problems
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55794 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 3/4/2014
Subject: Re: No feeding, nowater changing
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55795 From: deenerzz Date: 3/4/2014
Subject: Re: No feeding, nowater changing
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55796 From: Mothermastiff Date: 3/4/2014
Subject: Re: "Moss" is probably algae - more problems
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55797 From: deenerzz Date: 3/4/2014
Subject: Re: "Moss" is probably algae - more problems
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55798 From: sevenspringss Date: 3/4/2014
Subject: Re: "Moss" is probably algae - more problems
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55799 From: kbgwp Date: 3/5/2014
Subject: Re: No feeding, nowater changing
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55800 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 3/5/2014
Subject: Re: No feeding, nowater changing
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55801 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 3/5/2014
Subject: Re: No feeding, nowater changing
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55802 From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c Date: 3/5/2014
Subject: Re: "Moss" is probably algae - more problems
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55803 From: jett07002 Date: 3/5/2014
Subject: Re: No feeding, nowater changing
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55804 From: sevenspringss Date: 3/5/2014
Subject: Re: No feeding, nowater changing
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55805 From: deenerzz Date: 3/5/2014
Subject: Re: No feeding, nowater changing
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55806 From: kbgwp Date: 3/6/2014
Subject: Re: No feeding, nowater changing
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55807 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 3/6/2014
Subject: Re: No feeding, nowater changing
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55808 From: sevenspringss Date: 3/6/2014
Subject: Re: No feeding, nowater changing
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55809 From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c Date: 3/7/2014
Subject: Re: No feeding, nowater changing
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55810 From: kbgwp Date: 3/8/2014
Subject: Re: No feeding, nowater changing
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55811 From: sevenspringss Date: 3/8/2014
Subject: Re: No feeding, nowater changing
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55812 From: kbgwp Date: 3/9/2014
Subject: Re: No feeding, nowater changing
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55813 From: sevenspringss Date: 3/9/2014
Subject: Re: No feeding, nowater changing
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55814 From: kbgwp Date: 3/9/2014
Subject: Re: No feeding, nowater changing
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55815 From: kbgwp Date: 3/9/2014
Subject: Re: No feeding, nowater changing
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55816 From: sevenspringss Date: 3/9/2014
Subject: Re: No feeding, nowater changing
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55817 From: amejia1976 Date: 3/10/2014
Subject: Whats this growing?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55818 From: Amber Date: 3/11/2014
Subject: Re: Whats this growing?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55819 From: steckermonkey50 Date: 3/14/2014
Subject: Little giant water pump
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55820 From: Alex Mejia Date: 3/15/2014
Subject: Re: Whats this growing?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55821 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 3/15/2014
Subject: Re: Little giant water pump
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55822 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 3/15/2014
Subject: Cleaning Bogwood
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55823 From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c Date: 3/16/2014
Subject: Re: Cleaning Bogwood
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55824 From: Amber Date: 3/17/2014
Subject: Re: Whats this growing?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55825 From: steckermonkey50 Date: 3/19/2014
Subject: Re: Little giant water pump
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55826 From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c Date: 3/20/2014
Subject: Re: Little giant water pump
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55827 From: fish_go_illini Date: 3/20/2014
Subject: Sprin Auction / Peoria IL area March 22,2014
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55828 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 3/20/2014
Subject: Re: Cleaning Bogwood
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55829 From: megablasto2000 Date: 3/27/2014
Subject: Opinions on lava rock for freshwater aquariums
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55830 From: sevenspringss Date: 3/27/2014
Subject: Re: Opinions on lava rock for freshwater aquariums
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55831 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 3/27/2014
Subject: Re: Opinions on lava rock for freshwater aquariums
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55832 From: Harry Leverett Date: 3/27/2014
Subject: Re: Opinions on lava rock for freshwater aquariums
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55833 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 3/27/2014
Subject: Re: Opinions on lava rock for freshwater aquariums
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55834 From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c Date: 3/28/2014
Subject: Re: Opinions on lava rock for freshwater aquariums
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55835 From: megablasto2000 Date: 4/1/2014
Subject: Re: Opinions on lava rock for freshwater aquariums
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55836 From: Lorraine Murphy Date: 4/1/2014
Subject: fish stuck to filter
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55837 From: sevenspringss Date: 4/1/2014
Subject: Re: fish stuck to filter
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55838 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 4/2/2014
Subject: Re: fish stuck to filter
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55839 From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c Date: 4/2/2014
Subject: Re: Ciclids
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55840 From: Angela Cancilla Herschel Date: 4/2/2014
Subject: New Betta
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55841 From: sevenspringss Date: 4/2/2014
Subject: Re: New Betta
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55843 From: sevenspringss Date: 4/14/2014
Subject: Re: 5ft tank (DIY background)
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55844 From: megablasto2000 Date: 4/16/2014
Subject: Under the tank: to foam, or not to foam?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55845 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 4/16/2014
Subject: Re: Under the tank: to foam, or not to foam?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55846 From: Just Micky Date: 4/16/2014
Subject: Re: Under the tank: to foam, or not to foam?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55847 From: megablasto2000 Date: 4/16/2014
Subject: Re: Under the tank: to foam, or not to foam?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55848 From: sevenspringss Date: 4/16/2014
Subject: Re: Under the tank: to foam, or not to foam?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55849 From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c Date: 4/17/2014
Subject: Re: Under the tank: to foam, or not to foam?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55850 From: sevenspringss Date: 4/17/2014
Subject: Re: Under the tank: to foam, or not to foam?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55851 From: jett07002 Date: 4/17/2014
Subject: Re: Under the tank: to foam, or not to foam?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55852 From: ptimlin Date: 4/17/2014
Subject: Re: Under the tank: to foam, or not to foam?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55853 From: sevenspringss Date: 4/17/2014
Subject: Re: Under the tank: to foam, or not to foam?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55854 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 4/17/2014
Subject: Re: Under the tank: to foam, or not to foam?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55855 From: Martin TeBrake Date: 4/18/2014
Subject: New member
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55856 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 4/18/2014
Subject: Re: New member
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55857 From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c Date: 4/19/2014
Subject: Re: Under the tank: to foam, or not to foam?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55858 From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c Date: 4/19/2014
Subject: Re: Under the tank: to foam, or not to foam?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55859 From: sevenspringss Date: 4/19/2014
Subject: Re: New member
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55860 From: sevenspringss Date: 4/19/2014
Subject: Re: Under the tank: to foam, or not to foam?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55861 From: sevenspringss Date: 4/19/2014
Subject: Re: Under the tank: to foam, or not to foam?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55864 From: Harry Perry Date: 4/19/2014
Subject: Re: 5ft tank (DIY background)
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55865 From: sevenspringss Date: 4/19/2014
Subject: Re: 5ft tank (DIY background)
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55866 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 4/19/2014
Subject: Re: 5ft tank (DIY background)
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55868 From: Andy Mills Date: 4/20/2014
Subject: Questions about ramshorn snails
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55869 From: sevenspringss Date: 4/20/2014
Subject: Re: 5ft tank (DIY background)
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55871 From: sevenspringss Date: 4/20/2014
Subject: Re: 5ft tank (DIY background)
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55874 From: Harry Perry Date: 4/20/2014
Subject: Re: My gourami tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55875 From: Harry Perry Date: 4/20/2014
Subject: Re: My gourami tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55878 From: Rusty Barfield Date: 4/21/2014
Subject: Re: My gourami tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55880 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 4/21/2014
Subject: Re: Goldfish tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55882 From: Harry Perry Date: 4/21/2014
Subject: New Moderator
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55884 From: Patrick A. Timlin Date: 4/22/2014
Subject: Re: Goldfish tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55886 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 4/24/2014
Subject: Re: Goldfish tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55892 From: alasse_au Date: 4/27/2014
Subject: Tis so quiet....
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55893 From: sevenspringss Date: 4/27/2014
Subject: Re: Tis so quiet....
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55894 From: oldies1433 Date: 4/27/2014
Subject: Re: Tis so quiet....
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55895 From: angel2whitewings Date: 4/27/2014
Subject: Re: Tis so quiet....
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55896 From: Harry Perry Date: 4/27/2014
Subject: O.T. Post Neo format Yahoo mail.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55897 From: Amber Date: 4/27/2014
Subject: Re: Tis so quiet....
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55898 From: Andy Mills Date: 4/27/2014
Subject: Questions about ramshorn snails
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55899 From: deenerzz Date: 4/27/2014
Subject: Re: Tis so quiet....
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55900 From: db1433 Date: 4/27/2014
Subject: For Alasse and Andy
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55901 From: oldies1433 Date: 4/27/2014
Subject: Re: Tis so quiet....
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55902 From: oldies1433 Date: 4/27/2014
Subject: Re: Questions about ramshorn snails
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55903 From: annabellesmom2000 Date: 4/28/2014
Subject: New Tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55904 From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c Date: 4/28/2014
Subject: Re: Tis so quiet....
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55905 From: Amber Date: 4/28/2014
Subject: Re: New Tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55906 From: Amber Date: 4/28/2014
Subject: Brackish plants and fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55907 From: Amber Date: 4/28/2014
Subject: Re: Questions about ramshorn snails
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55908 From: annabellesmom2000 Date: 4/28/2014
Subject: Re: AquaticLife
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55909 From: oldies1433 Date: 4/28/2014
Subject: Re: Tis so quiet....
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55910 From: Amber Date: 4/28/2014
Subject: Re: AquaticLife
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55911 From: sevenspringss Date: 4/28/2014
Subject: Re: New Tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55912 From: megablasto2000 Date: 4/28/2014
Subject: Re: New Tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55913 From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c Date: 4/28/2014
Subject: Re: Tis so quiet....
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55914 From: annabellesmom2000 Date: 4/28/2014
Subject: Re: New Tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55915 From: megablasto2000 Date: 4/28/2014
Subject: Re: New Tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55916 From: deenerzz Date: 4/28/2014
Subject: Re: New Tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55917 From: alasse_au Date: 4/28/2014
Subject: Re: Tis so quiet....
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55918 From: deenerzz Date: 4/29/2014
Subject: Re: Tis so quiet....
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55919 From: sevenspringss Date: 4/29/2014
Subject: Re: Brackish plants and fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55920 From: Amber Date: 4/29/2014
Subject: Re: Brackish plants and fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55921 From: oldies1433 Date: 4/29/2014
Subject: Re: Tis so quiet....
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55922 From: oldies1433 Date: 4/29/2014
Subject: Re: Tis so quiet....
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55923 From: Terri Ferrier Date: 4/29/2014
Subject: Coming out of lurk mode:) (Long)
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55924 From: sevenspringss Date: 4/29/2014
Subject: Re: Testing Only
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55925 From: sevenspringss Date: 4/29/2014
Subject: Fwd: Testing Only
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55926 From: sevenspringss Date: 4/29/2014
Subject: Re: Tis so quiet....
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55927 From: sevenspringss Date: 4/29/2014
Subject: Re: Tis so quiet....
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55928 From: alasse_au Date: 4/29/2014
Subject: Re: Tis so quiet....
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55929 From: megablasto2000 Date: 4/29/2014
Subject: Does my goldy have a disease?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55930 From: oldies1433 Date: 4/29/2014
Subject: Re: Tis so quiet....
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55931 From: sevenspringss Date: 4/29/2014
Subject: Re: Tis so quiet....
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55932 From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c Date: 4/30/2014
Subject: Re: Tis so quiet....
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55933 From: jett07002 Date: 4/30/2014
Subject: Re: Fwd: Testing Only
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55934 From: Lorraine Murphy Date: 4/30/2014
Subject: Re: Tis so quiet....
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55935 From: sevenspringss Date: 4/30/2014
Subject: Re: Fwd: Testing Only
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55936 From: oldies1433 Date: 4/30/2014
Subject: Re: Tis so quiet....
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55937 From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c Date: 4/30/2014
Subject: Re: Tis so quiet....
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55938 From: jett07002 Date: 4/30/2014
Subject: Re: Fwd: Testing Only
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55939 From: msbutterfly770 Date: 4/30/2014
Subject: Strange thing
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55940 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 4/30/2014
Subject: Re: Does my goldy have a disease?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55941 From: Terri Ferrier Date: 4/30/2014
Subject: Re: Strange thing
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55942 From: alasse_au Date: 4/30/2014
Subject: Re: Strange thing
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55943 From: annabellesmom2000 Date: 5/1/2014
Subject: Re: New Tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55944 From: deenerzz Date: 5/1/2014
Subject: Re: New Tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55945 From: rburrg Date: 5/1/2014
Subject: Re: Strange thing
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55946 From: ptimlin Date: 5/1/2014
Subject: Re: Strange thing
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55947 From: sevenspringss Date: 5/1/2014
Subject: Re: New Tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55948 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 5/1/2014
Subject: Re: New Tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55949 From: Amber Date: 5/1/2014
Subject: Re: New Tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55950 From: Donna Ransome Date: 5/1/2014
Subject: Re: New Tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55951 From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c Date: 5/1/2014
Subject: Re: Does my goldy have a disease?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55952 From: megablasto2000 Date: 5/1/2014
Subject: Re: Does my goldy have a disease?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55953 From: megablasto2000 Date: 5/2/2014
Subject: Re: Does my goldy have a disease?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55954 From: megablasto2000 Date: 5/2/2014
Subject: Re: Does my goldy have a disease?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55955 From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c Date: 5/3/2014
Subject: Re: Does my goldy have a disease?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55956 From: love_animals07 Date: 5/6/2014
Subject: One heater, two ick infested tanks...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55957 From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c Date: 5/8/2014
Subject: Re: One heater, two ick infested tanks...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55958 From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c Date: 5/8/2014
Subject: Re: One heater, two ick infested tanks...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55959 From: love_animals07 Date: 5/8/2014
Subject: Re: One heater, two ick infested tanks...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55960 From: sally.blackhawks@btinternet.com Date: 5/8/2014
Subject: Re: One heater, two ick infested tanks...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55961 From: Amber Date: 5/8/2014
Subject: Re: One heater, two ick infested tanks...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55962 From: love_animals07 Date: 5/9/2014
Subject: Re: One heater, two ick infested tanks...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55963 From: db1433 Date: 5/12/2014
Subject: You WHO Ray?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55964 From: sevenspringss Date: 5/12/2014
Subject: Re: You WHO Ray?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55965 From: MASENGESHO Eric poponi Date: 5/13/2014
Subject: Re: You WHO Ray?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55966 From: MASENGESHO Eric poponi Date: 5/13/2014
Subject: Re: You WHO Ray?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55967 From: ellie_anne_elliott Date: 5/16/2014
Subject: Pygmy Puffer Fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55968 From: Cheryl Kautz Date: 5/19/2014
Subject: Fw: [AquaticLife] Pygmy Puffer Fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55969 From: ellie_anne_elliott Date: 5/19/2014
Subject: Re: Fw: [AquaticLife] Pygmy Puffer Fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55970 From: Amber Date: 5/20/2014
Subject: Re: Fw: [AquaticLife] Pygmy Puffer Fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55971 From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c Date: 5/20/2014
Subject: Re: Pygmy Puffer Fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55972 From: Harry Leverett Date: 5/20/2014
Subject: Re: Pygmy Puffer Fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55973 From: ellie_anne_elliott Date: 5/21/2014
Subject: Re: Pygmy Puffer Fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55974 From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c Date: 5/22/2014
Subject: Re: Pygmy Puffer Fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55975 From: jett07002 Date: 5/22/2014
Subject: Re: Pygmy Puffer Fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55976 From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c Date: 5/23/2014
Subject: Re: Pygmy Puffer Fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55977 From: ellie_anne_elliott Date: 5/26/2014
Subject: Re: Pygmy Puffer Fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55978 From: Andy Mills Date: 5/26/2014
Subject: Re: Pygmy Puffer Fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55979 From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c Date: 5/27/2014
Subject: Re: Pygmy Puffer Fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55980 From: ellie_anne_elliott Date: 5/27/2014
Subject: Re: Pygmy Puffer Fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55981 From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c Date: 5/28/2014
Subject: Re: Pygmy Puffer Fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55982 From: ellie_anne_elliott Date: 5/28/2014
Subject: Re: Pygmy Puffer Fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55983 From: ellie_anne_elliott Date: 5/28/2014
Subject: Re: Pygmy Puffer Fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55984 From: jett07002 Date: 5/29/2014
Subject: Re: Pygmy Puffer Fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55985 From: ellie_anne_elliott Date: 5/29/2014
Subject: Re: Pygmy Puffer Fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55986 From: Ellie Date: 5/29/2014
Subject: (no subject)
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55987 From: deenerzz Date: 5/29/2014
Subject: Re: (unknown)
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55988 From: Ellie Date: 5/29/2014
Subject: Re: (unknown)
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55989 From: ellie_elliott@... Date: 5/30/2014
Subject: Re: (unknown)
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55990 From: Angela Cancilla Herschel Date: 5/30/2014
Subject: OT: Video; how to help snapping turtle cross road
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55991 From: ellie_elliott@... Date: 5/30/2014
Subject: Success!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55992 From: sevenspringss Date: 5/30/2014
Subject: Re: Success!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55993 From: ellie_elliott@... Date: 5/31/2014
Subject: Re: Success!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55994 From: sevenspringss Date: 5/31/2014
Subject: Re: Success!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55995 From: ellie_elliott@ymail.com Date: 5/31/2014
Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Success!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55996 From: ptimlin Date: 5/31/2014
Subject: Re: OT: Video; how to help snapping turtle cross road
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55997 From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c Date: 5/31/2014
Subject: Re: Success!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55998 From: ellie_elliott@... Date: 5/31/2014
Subject: Re: Success!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55999 From: Angela Cancilla Herschel Date: 5/31/2014
Subject: Okay to but fighting fish out for a half hour in mid morning of sunl
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56000 From: sevenspringss Date: 5/31/2014
Subject: Re: Success!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56004 From: sevenspringss Date: 6/1/2014
Subject: Re: 2ft DIY Background
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56005 From: sevenspringss Date: 6/1/2014
Subject: Re: Nano Shellie tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56006 From: sevenspringss Date: 6/1/2014
Subject: Re: 2ft DIY Background
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56007 From: Kevin Boyle Date: 6/1/2014
Subject: Re: Nano Shellie tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56008 From: ellie_elliott@... Date: 6/1/2014
Subject: Re: Success!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56009 From: sevenspringss Date: 6/1/2014
Subject: Re: Success!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56010 From: ellie_elliott@... Date: 6/1/2014
Subject: Re: Success!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56011 From: ellie_elliott@... Date: 6/1/2014
Subject: Re: Success!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56012 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 6/1/2014
Subject: Re: Success!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56013 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 6/1/2014
Subject: Re: Okay to but fighting fish out for a half hour in mid morning of
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56016 From: Harry Perry Date: 6/1/2014
Subject: Angela Re: [AquaticLife] Okay to but fighting fish out for a half ho
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56017 From: deenerzz Date: 6/1/2014
Subject: Re: Okay to but fighting fish out for a half hour in mid morning of
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56018 From: sevenspringss Date: 6/1/2014
Subject: Re: 2ft DIY Background
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56019 From: sevenspringss Date: 6/1/2014
Subject: Re: Nano Shellie tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56020 From: sevenspringss Date: 6/1/2014
Subject: Re: Okay to but fighting fish out for a half hour in mid mornin...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56021 From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c Date: 6/1/2014
Subject: Re: Okay to but fighting fish out for a half hour in mid morning of
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56023 From: sevenspringss Date: 6/2/2014
Subject: Re: Nano Shellie tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56025 From: sevenspringss Date: 6/2/2014
Subject: Re: Nano Shellie tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56026 From: Angela Cancilla Herschel Date: 6/2/2014
Subject: *Okay to put fighting fish out for a half hour in mid morning?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56027 From: sevenspringss Date: 6/2/2014
Subject: Re: *Okay to put fighting fish out for a half hour in mid morni...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56028 From: Noura T. Date: 6/2/2014
Subject: Still here
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56029 From: sevenspringss Date: 6/2/2014
Subject: Re: Still here
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56030 From: noura_taweel Date: 6/2/2014
Subject: Re: Still here
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56031 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 6/2/2014
Subject: Re: *Okay to put fighting fish out for a half hour in mid morning?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56032 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 6/2/2014
Subject: Re: Still here
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56034 From: sevenspringss Date: 6/3/2014
Subject: Re: Nano Shellie tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56036 From: sevenspringss Date: 6/3/2014
Subject: Re: Nano Shellie tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56037 From: alasse_au Date: 6/3/2014
Subject: Re: Nano Shellie tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56038 From: Noura T. Date: 6/3/2014
Subject: Re: Still here
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56039 From: sevenspringss Date: 6/3/2014
Subject: Re: Nano Shellie tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56040 From: harryleverett60 Date: 6/3/2014
Subject: Re: Nano Shellie tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56041 From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c Date: 6/3/2014
Subject: Re: *Okay to put fighting fish out for a half hour in mid morning?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56042 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 6/3/2014
Subject: Re: Still here
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56043 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 6/3/2014
Subject: Re: *Okay to put fighting fish out for a half hour in mid morning?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56044 From: Angela Cancilla Herschel Date: 6/3/2014
Subject: Okay to put fighting fish out for a half hour in mid morning?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56045 From: sevenspringss Date: 6/3/2014
Subject: Re: Still here
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56046 From: sevenspringss Date: 6/4/2014
Subject: Re: Nano Shellie tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56047 From: Harry Leverett Date: 6/4/2014
Subject: Re: Nano Shellie tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56048 From: sevenspringss Date: 6/4/2014
Subject: Re: Nano Shellie tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56049 From: Angela Cancilla Herschel Date: 6/4/2014
Subject: *Okay to put fighting fish out for a half hour in mid morning/
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56050 From: deenerzz Date: 6/4/2014
Subject: Re: Nano Shellie tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56051 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 6/4/2014
Subject: Re: *Okay to put fighting fish out for a half hour in mid morning/
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56052 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 6/4/2014
Subject: Re: Nano Shellie tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56053 From: sevenspringss Date: 6/4/2014
Subject: Re: Nano Shellie tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56054 From: sevenspringss Date: 6/4/2014
Subject: Re: Nano Shellie tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56055 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 6/5/2014
Subject: Re: Nano Shellie tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56056 From: ellie_elliott@... Date: 6/5/2014
Subject: Re: Nano Shellie tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56057 From: Noura T. Date: 6/5/2014
Subject: Re: Still here
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56058 From: Noura T. Date: 6/5/2014
Subject: Re: Still here
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56059 From: sevenspringss Date: 6/5/2014
Subject: Re: Nano Shellie tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56060 From: oldies1433 Date: 6/5/2014
Subject: Re: Nano Shellie tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56061 From: sevenspringss Date: 6/5/2014
Subject: Re: Still here
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56062 From: sevenspringss Date: 6/5/2014
Subject: Re: Nano Shellie tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56063 From: oldies1433 Date: 6/5/2014
Subject: Re: Nano Shellie tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56064 From: oldies1433 Date: 6/5/2014
Subject: Noura Tank Repair
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56065 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 6/5/2014
Subject: Re: Still here
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56066 From: Angela Cancilla Herschel Date: 6/5/2014
Subject: Under gravel filters?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56067 From: sevenspringss Date: 6/6/2014
Subject: Re: Under gravel filters?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56068 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 6/6/2014
Subject: Re: Under gravel filters?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56069 From: Donna Ransome Date: 6/7/2014
Subject: Re: Nano Shellie tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56070 From: Angela Cancilla Herschel Date: 6/7/2014
Subject: Betta fish (under gravel filter)
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56072 From: oldies1433 Date: 6/11/2014
Subject: Re: Noura Tank Repair
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56073 From: José P. Zúñiga A. Date: 6/11/2014
Subject: I am a new joiner
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56074 From: noura_taweel Date: 6/11/2014
Subject: Re: Still here
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56075 From: noura_taweel Date: 6/11/2014
Subject: Re: Noura Tank Repair
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56076 From: oldies1433 Date: 6/11/2014
Subject: Re: Noura Tank Repair
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56077 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 6/11/2014
Subject: Re: I am a new joiner
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56078 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 6/11/2014
Subject: Re: Noura Tank Repair
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56079 From: Harry Perry Date: 6/11/2014
Subject: Re: I am a new joiner
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56080 From: sevenspringss Date: 6/11/2014
Subject: Re: I am a new joiner
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56081 From: sevenspringss Date: 6/11/2014
Subject: Re: Noura Tank Repair
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56082 From: sevenspringss Date: 6/11/2014
Subject: Re: Still here
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56083 From: sevenspringss Date: 6/11/2014
Subject: Re: Still here
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56084 From: José P. Zúñiga A. Date: 6/11/2014
Subject: Re: I am a new joiner
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56085 From: José P. Zúñiga A. Date: 6/11/2014
Subject: Re: I am a new joiner
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56086 From: José P. Zúñiga A. Date: 6/11/2014
Subject: Re: I am a new joiner
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56087 From: Noura T. Date: 6/12/2014
Subject: Re: Noura Tank Repair
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56088 From: Noura T. Date: 6/12/2014
Subject: Re: Still here
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56089 From: sevenspringss Date: 6/12/2014
Subject: Re: Still here
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56090 From: kristen6105 Date: 6/12/2014
Subject: Assassin snails
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56091 From: ellie_elliott@... Date: 6/12/2014
Subject: Update on Puffers
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56092 From: sevenspringss Date: 6/12/2014
Subject: Re: Update on Puffers
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56093 From: ellie_elliott@... Date: 6/12/2014
Subject: Re: Update on Puffers
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56094 From: sevenspringss Date: 6/12/2014
Subject: Re: Update on Puffers
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56095 From: ellie_elliott@... Date: 6/18/2014
Subject: Re: Update on Puffers
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56096 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 6/18/2014
Subject: Re: Update on Puffers
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56097 From: Terri Ferrier Date: 6/23/2014
Subject: New deco in my tank.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56098 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 6/23/2014
Subject: Re: New deco in my tank.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56099 From: ellie_elliott@... Date: 6/24/2014
Subject: Re: New deco in my tank.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56100 From: ellie_elliott@... Date: 6/24/2014
Subject: Re: New deco in my tank.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56101 From: amejia1976 Date: 6/24/2014
Subject: Broken Seals
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56102 From: Terri Ferrier Date: 6/24/2014
Subject: Re: New deco in my tank.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56103 From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c Date: 6/24/2014
Subject: Posting photos
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56104 From: deenerzz Date: 6/24/2014
Subject: Re: Posting photos
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56105 From: Amber Date: 6/24/2014
Subject: Re: Posting photos
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56106 From: amejia1976 Date: 6/24/2014
Subject: Re: Broken Seals
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56107 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 6/24/2014
Subject: Re: Posting photos
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56108 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 6/24/2014
Subject: Re: Broken Seals
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56109 From: amejia1976@yahoo.com Date: 6/24/2014
Subject: Re: Broken Seals
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56110 From: sevenspringss Date: 6/25/2014
Subject: Re: Broken Seals
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56111 From: Alex Mejia Date: 6/25/2014
Subject: Re: Broken Seals
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56112 From: sevenspringss Date: 6/26/2014
Subject: Re: Broken Seals
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56113 From: Alex Mejia Date: 6/26/2014
Subject: Re: Broken Seal
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56114 From: José P. Zúñiga A. Date: 6/26/2014
Subject: Nature's care organic potting mix for planted aquarium
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56115 From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c Date: 6/26/2014
Subject: Re: Posting photos
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56116 From: sevenspringss Date: 6/26/2014
Subject: Re: Broken Seal
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56117 From: sevenspringss Date: 6/26/2014
Subject: Re: Broken Seal
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56118 From: Michael Li Date: 7/1/2014
Subject: aloha from New York City - new member
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56119 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 7/2/2014
Subject: Re: aloha from New York City - new member
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56120 From: Michael Li Date: 7/2/2014
Subject: Re: aloha from New York City - new member
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56121 From: amejia1976 Date: 7/2/2014
Subject: Re: Broken Seal
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56122 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 7/2/2014
Subject: Re: aloha from New York City - new member
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56123 From: amejia1976 Date: 7/2/2014
Subject: New Freshwater tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56124 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 7/6/2014
Subject: Re: New Freshwater tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56125 From: sevenspringss Date: 7/6/2014
Subject: Re: New Freshwater tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56126 From: deenerzz Date: 7/6/2014
Subject: Re: New Freshwater tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56127 From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c Date: 7/7/2014
Subject: Re: New Freshwater tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56128 From: Terri Ferrier Date: 7/7/2014
Subject: Can anyone identify this fish?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56129 From: Sivakumar Viswanathan Date: 7/8/2014
Subject: Re: Can anyone identify this fish?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56130 From: Terri Ferrier Date: 7/8/2014
Subject: Re: Can anyone identify this fish?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56131 From: deenerzz Date: 7/8/2014
Subject: Re: Can anyone identify this fish?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56132 From: sevenspringss Date: 7/8/2014
Subject: Re: Can anyone identify this fish?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56133 From: Terri Ferrier Date: 7/8/2014
Subject: Re: Can anyone identify this fish?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56134 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 7/8/2014
Subject: Re: Can anyone identify this fish?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56135 From: sevenspringss Date: 7/8/2014
Subject: Re: Can anyone identify this fish?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56136 From: Terri Ferrier Date: 7/8/2014
Subject: New Tank being delivered on Thursday!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56137 From: sevenspringss Date: 7/9/2014
Subject: Re: New Tank being delivered on Thursday!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56138 From: Terri Ferrier Date: 7/9/2014
Subject: Re: New Tank being delivered on Thursday!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56139 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 7/9/2014
Subject: Re: New Tank being delivered on Thursday!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56140 From: sevenspringss Date: 7/9/2014
Subject: Re: New Tank being delivered on Thursday!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56141 From: Terri Ferrier Date: 7/9/2014
Subject: Re: New Tank being delivered on Thursday!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56142 From: Terri Ferrier Date: 7/9/2014
Subject: Re: New Tank being delivered on Thursday!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56143 From: Terri Ferrier Date: 7/10/2014
Subject: New Tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56144 From: amejia1976 Date: 7/18/2014
Subject: Aquabid
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56145 From: deenerzz Date: 7/18/2014
Subject: Re: Aquabid
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56146 From: amejia1976 Date: 7/18/2014
Subject: Re: New Freshwater tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56147 From: amejia1976 Date: 7/18/2014
Subject: Re: Aquabid
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56148 From: sevenspringss Date: 7/19/2014
Subject: Re: Aquabid
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56149 From: Jackie Date: 7/19/2014
Subject: Tank upgrade
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56150 From: oldies1433 Date: 7/20/2014
Subject: Re: Tank upgrade
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56151 From: amejia1976 Date: 7/24/2014
Subject: Re: Aquabid
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56152 From: amejia1976 Date: 7/24/2014
Subject: Re: Tank upgrade
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56153 From: sevenspringss Date: 7/24/2014
Subject: Re: Aquabid
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56154 From: amejia1976 Date: 7/24/2014
Subject: Re: Aquabid
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56155 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 7/24/2014
Subject: Re: Tank upgrade
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56156 From: oldies1433 Date: 7/24/2014
Subject: Re: Tank upgrade
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56157 From: amejia1976 Date: 7/24/2014
Subject: Re: Tank upgrade
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56158 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 7/25/2014
Subject: Re: Tank upgrade
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56159 From: Alex Mejia Date: 7/25/2014
Subject: Re: Tank upgrade
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56160 From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c Date: 7/27/2014
Subject: Re: Aquabid
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56161 From: sevenspringss Date: 7/28/2014
Subject: Re: Aquabid
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56162 From: Angela Cancilla Herschel Date: 7/28/2014
Subject: Aquatic feeder "invisible"
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56163 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 7/28/2014
Subject: Re: Aquatic feeder "invisible"
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56164 From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c Date: 7/29/2014
Subject: Re: Aquabid
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56165 From: amphibian_ca Date: 7/30/2014
Subject: Re: Aquabid
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56166 From: jett07002 Date: 7/31/2014
Subject: Re: Aquabid
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56167 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 7/31/2014
Subject: Re: Aquabid
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56168 From: José P. Zúñiga A. Date: 8/6/2014
Subject: Algae Outbreak in my tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56169 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 8/6/2014
Subject: Re: Algae Outbreak in my tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56170 From: José P. Zúñiga A. Date: 8/6/2014
Subject: Re: Algae Outbreak in my tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56171 From: Amber Date: 8/6/2014
Subject: Re: Algae Outbreak in my tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56172 From: amphibian_ca Date: 8/7/2014
Subject: Re: Algae Outbreak in my tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56173 From: amejia1976 Date: 8/7/2014
Subject: Re: Aquabid
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56174 From: sflerc726 Date: 8/13/2014
Subject: Stocking ideas for new aquarist with a 55gal tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56175 From: ptimlin Date: 8/14/2014
Subject: Re: Stocking ideas for new aquarist with a 55gal tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56176 From: amphibian_ca Date: 8/14/2014
Subject: Re: Stocking ideas for new aquarist with a 55gal tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56177 From: Terri Ferrier Date: 8/14/2014
Subject: Re: Stocking ideas for new aquarist with a 55gal tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56178 From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c Date: 8/14/2014
Subject: Re: Stocking ideas for new aquarist with a 55gal tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56179 From: Terri Ferrier Date: 8/23/2014
Subject: Need advice on lighting
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56180 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 8/24/2014
Subject: Re: Need advice on lighting
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56181 From: sflerc726 Date: 8/27/2014
Subject: Re: Stocking ideas for new aquarist with a 55gal tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56182 From: acer.myron Date: 8/30/2014
Subject: Re: Can anyone identify this fish?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56183 From: jett07002 Date: 9/3/2014
Subject: Re: Can anyone identify this fish?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56184 From: amejia1976 Date: 9/7/2014
Subject: Finally Up and Running
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56185 From: sevenspringss Date: 9/8/2014
Subject: Re: Finally Up and Running
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56186 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 9/8/2014
Subject: Re: Finally Up and Running
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56187 From: amejia1976 Date: 9/8/2014
Subject: Re: Finally Up and Running
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56188 From: amejia1976 Date: 9/8/2014
Subject: Re: Finally Up and Running
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56189 From: amejia1976 Date: 9/8/2014
Subject: Re: Finally Up and Running
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56190 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 9/8/2014
Subject: Re: Finally Up and Running
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56191 From: amejia1976 Date: 9/8/2014
Subject: Re: Finally Up and Running
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56192 From: sevenspringss Date: 9/8/2014
Subject: Re: Finally Up and Running
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56193 From: Andy Mills Date: 9/10/2014
Subject: Has anyone heard of a referee fish?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56194 From: ptimlin Date: 9/11/2014
Subject: Re: Has anyone heard of a referee fish?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56195 From: Andy Mills Date: 9/11/2014
Subject: Re: Has anyone heard of a referee fish?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56196 From: Alissa Jordan Date: 9/23/2014
Subject: (no subject)
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56197 From: jett07002 Date: 9/24/2014
Subject:
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56198 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 9/24/2014
Subject: Re:
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56199 From: alijo79 Date: 9/24/2014
Subject:
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56200 From: sevenspringss Date: 9/28/2014
Subject: Re: New Tank Sale
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56201 From: amejia1976 Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: New Tank Sale
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56202 From: sevenspringss Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: New Tank Sale
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56203 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: New Tank Sale
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56204 From: amejia1976 Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Coming Along Well
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56205 From: amejia1976 Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: New Tank Sale
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56206 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: New Tank Sale
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56207 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 9/30/2014
Subject: Re: Coming Along Well
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56208 From: Alex Mejia Date: 10/4/2014
Subject: Re: Coming Along Well
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56209 From: Jim Forshey (Aquatic Book Shop) Date: 10/11/2014
Subject: Some Items we put up for sale on e-bay.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56210 From: sevenspringss Date: 10/11/2014
Subject: Re: Some Items we put up for sale on e-bay.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56211 From: amejia1976 Date: 10/16/2014
Subject: Angelfish - Betta - Suckerfish - Snails
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56212 From: sevenspringss Date: 10/16/2014
Subject: Re: Angelfish - Betta - Suckerfish - Snails
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56213 From: amejia1976 Date: 10/16/2014
Subject: Re: Angelfish - Betta - Suckerfish - Snails
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56214 From: Andy Mills Date: 10/16/2014
Subject: Re: Angelfish - Betta - Suckerfish - Snails
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56215 From: amphibian_ca Date: 10/22/2014
Subject: Re: Angelfish - Betta - Suckerfish - Snails
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56216 From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: 10/25/2014
Subject: AquaticLife Yahoo! Fish Group ~ Founded: Nov 4, 2002, Tuesday, 04 No
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56217 From: joe t Date: 10/26/2014
Subject: Re: AquaticLife Yahoo! Fish Group ~ Founded: Nov 4, 2002, Tuesday, 0
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56218 From: Harry Perry Date: 10/26/2014
Subject: Re: AquaticLife Yahoo! Fish Group ~ Founded: Nov 4, 2002, Tuesday, 0
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56219 From: sevenspringss Date: 10/26/2014
Subject: Re: AquaticLife Yahoo! Fish Group ~ Founded: Nov 4, 2002, T...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56220 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 10/26/2014
Subject: Re: AquaticLife Yahoo! Fish Group ~ Founded: Nov 4, 2002, Tuesday, 0
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56221 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 10/27/2014
Subject: Bacterial Bloom?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56222 From: jett07002 Date: 10/27/2014
Subject: Re: AquaticLife Yahoo! Fish Group ~ Founded: Nov 4, 2002, T...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56223 From: Kevin Boyle Date: 10/27/2014
Subject: Re: Bacterial Bloom?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56224 From: sevenspringss Date: 10/27/2014
Subject: Re: AquaticLife Yahoo! Fish Group ~ Founded: Nov 4, 2002, T...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56225 From: sevenspringss Date: 10/27/2014
Subject: Re: Bacterial Bloom?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56226 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 10/27/2014
Subject: Re: Bacterial Bloom?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56227 From: sevenspringss Date: 10/27/2014
Subject: Re: Bacterial Bloom?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56228 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 10/27/2014
Subject: Re: Bacterial Bloom?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56229 From: Terri Ferrier Date: 10/27/2014
Subject: Re: Bacterial Bloom?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56230 From: sevenspringss Date: 10/27/2014
Subject: Re: Bacterial Bloom?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56231 From: sevenspringss Date: 10/27/2014
Subject: Re: Bacterial Bloom?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56232 From: amphibian_ca Date: 10/28/2014
Subject: Re: Bacterial Bloom?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56233 From: sevenspringss Date: 10/28/2014
Subject: Re: Bacterial Bloom?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56234 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 10/30/2014
Subject: Re: Bacterial Bloom?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56235 From: sevenspringss Date: 10/31/2014
Subject: Re: Bacterial Bloom?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56236 From: jett07002 Date: 10/31/2014
Subject: Re: Bacterial Bloom?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56237 From: sevenspringss Date: 10/31/2014
Subject: Re: Bacterial Bloom?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56238 From: Terri Ferrier Date: 10/31/2014
Subject: Re: Bacterial Bloom?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56239 From: sevenspringss Date: 10/31/2014
Subject: Re: Bacterial Bloom?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56240 From: Terri Ferrier Date: 10/31/2014
Subject: Re: Bacterial Bloom?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56241 From: sevenspringss Date: 11/1/2014
Subject: Re: Bacterial Bloom?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56242 From: Terri Ferrier Date: 11/1/2014
Subject: Re: Bacterial Bloom?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56243 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 11/1/2014
Subject: Re: Bacterial Bloom?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56244 From: sevenspringss Date: 11/1/2014
Subject: Re: Bacterial Bloom?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56245 From: Terri Ferrier Date: 11/1/2014
Subject: Re: Bacterial Bloom?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56246 From: Terri Ferrier Date: 11/1/2014
Subject: Re: Bacterial Bloom?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56247 From: sevenspringss Date: 11/1/2014
Subject: Re: Bacterial Bloom?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56248 From: Terri Ferrier Date: 11/1/2014
Subject: Re: Bacterial Bloom?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56249 From: sevenspringss Date: 11/1/2014
Subject: Re: Bacterial Bloom?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56250 From: Terri Ferrier Date: 11/1/2014
Subject: Re: Bacterial Bloom?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56251 From: sevenspringss Date: 11/1/2014
Subject: Re: Bacterial Bloom?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56252 From: Terri Ferrier Date: 11/1/2014
Subject: Re: Bacterial Bloom?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56253 From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: 11/3/2014
Subject: AquaticLife Yahoo! Fish Group ~ Founded: Nov 4, 2002, Tuesday, 04 No
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56254 From: Angela Cancilla Herschel Date: 11/3/2014
Subject: * Fluorescent Stingrays & Sea Horses & more!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56255 From: Angela Cancilla Herschel Date: 11/23/2014
Subject: Puffer Fish Creates Ocean Floor Crop Circles
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56256 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 11/23/2014
Subject: Re: Puffer Fish Creates Ocean Floor Crop Circles
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56257 From: deenerzz Date: 11/23/2014
Subject: Re: Puffer Fish Creates Ocean Floor Crop Circles
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56258 From: sevenspringss Date: 11/23/2014
Subject: Re: Puffer Fish Creates Ocean Floor Crop Circles
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56259 From: deenerzz Date: 11/23/2014
Subject: Re: Puffer Fish Creates Ocean Floor Crop Circles
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56260 From: Angela Cancilla Herschel Date: 11/24/2014
Subject: New: Using satellites to track and illuminate fishing industry typic
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56261 From: geodandrew Date: 12/8/2014
Subject: Water?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56262 From: sevenspringss Date: 12/8/2014
Subject: Re: Water?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56263 From: Harry Leverett Date: 12/8/2014
Subject: Re: Water?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56264 From: sevenspringss Date: 12/8/2014
Subject: Re: Water?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56265 From: Harry Leverett Date: 12/8/2014
Subject: Re: Water?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56266 From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c Date: 12/9/2014
Subject: Re: Water?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56267 From: sevenspringss Date: 12/9/2014
Subject: Re: Water?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56268 From: Noura T. Date: 12/9/2014
Subject: Feeding question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56269 From: sevenspringss Date: 12/9/2014
Subject: Re: Feeding question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56270 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 12/9/2014
Subject: Re: Feeding question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56271 From: Noura T. Date: 12/10/2014
Subject: Re: Feeding question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56272 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 12/11/2014
Subject: Fwd: Hello from new member!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56273 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 12/11/2014
Subject: Re: Fwd: Hello from new member!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56274 From: Angela Cancilla Herschel Date: 12/12/2014
Subject: 3 fish showed up in outside patio "pond" ( 7' L. x 4' w. x 31/2 acro
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56275 From: Harry Leverett Date: 12/12/2014
Subject: Tank lighting
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56276 From: Harry Leverett Date: 12/12/2014
Subject: Re: 3 fish showed up in outside patio "pond" ( 7' L. x 4' w. x 31/2
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56277 From: sevenspringss Date: 12/12/2014
Subject: Re: Tank lighting
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56278 From: Harry Leverett Date: 12/12/2014
Subject: Re: Tank lighting
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56279 From: Harry Leverett Date: 12/12/2014
Subject: Re: Tank lighting
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56280 From: sevenspringss Date: 12/12/2014
Subject: Re: Tank lighting
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56281 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 12/13/2014
Subject: Re: 3 fish showed up in outside patio "pond" ( 7' L. x 4' w. x 31/2
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56282 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 12/13/2014
Subject: Re: Fwd: Hello from new member!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56283 From: jett07002 Date: 12/13/2014
Subject: Re: Tank lighting
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56284 From: amphibian_ca Date: 12/13/2014
Subject: Re: Tank lighting
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56285 From: Harry Leverett Date: 12/13/2014
Subject: Re: Tank lighting
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56286 From: Harry Leverett Date: 12/13/2014
Subject: Re: Tank lighting
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56287 From: Harry Leverett Date: 12/13/2014
Subject: Re: Tank lighting
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56288 From: Harry Leverett Date: 12/13/2014
Subject: Re: Tank lighting
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56289 From: Angela Cancilla Herschel Date: 12/13/2014
Subject: 3 fish showed up in outside patio "pond" ( 7' L. x 4' w. x 31/2 acro
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56290 From: Harry Leverett Date: 12/14/2014
Subject: Light bar
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56291 From: kbgwp Date: 12/14/2014
Subject: Re: 3 fish showed up in outside patio "pond" ( 7' L. x 4' w. x 31/2
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56292 From: Harry Leverett Date: 12/15/2014
Subject: Re: Tank lighting
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56293 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 12/15/2014
Subject: Re: 3 fish showed up in outside patio "pond" ( 7' L. x 4' w. x 31/2
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56294 From: Rose Bustamante Date: 12/16/2014
Subject: cloudy water
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56295 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 12/16/2014
Subject: Re: cloudy water
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56296 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 12/16/2014
Subject: Aquarium setup
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56297 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 12/16/2014
Subject: Penguin 350 bio wheel
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56298 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 12/18/2014
Subject: Hello???
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56299 From: sevenspringss Date: 12/18/2014
Subject: Re: Hello???
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56300 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 12/20/2014
Subject: Still chuggin' a long
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56301 From: sevenspringss Date: 12/20/2014
Subject: Re: Still chuggin' a long
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56302 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 12/21/2014
Subject: Re: Still chuggin' a long
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56303 From: sevenspringss Date: 12/21/2014
Subject: Re: Still chuggin' a long
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56304 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 12/21/2014
Subject: Re: Still chuggin' a long
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56305 From: sevenspringss Date: 12/21/2014
Subject: Re: Still chuggin' a long
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56306 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 12/21/2014
Subject: Re: Still chuggin' a long
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56307 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 12/21/2014
Subject: Re: Still chuggin' a long
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56308 From: sevenspringss Date: 12/21/2014
Subject: Re: Still chuggin' a long
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56309 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 12/22/2014
Subject: Re: Still chuggin' a long
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56310 From: sevenspringss Date: 12/22/2014
Subject: Re: Still chuggin' a long
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56311 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 12/23/2014
Subject: Re: Still chuggin' a long
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56312 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 12/23/2014
Subject: Re: Still chuggin' a long
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56313 From: sevenspringss Date: 12/23/2014
Subject: Re: Still chuggin' a long
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56314 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 12/23/2014
Subject: UV Clarifiers vs UV Sterilizers
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56315 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 12/23/2014
Subject: Re: Still chuggin' a long
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56316 From: sevenspringss Date: 12/23/2014
Subject: Re: UV Clarifiers vs UV Sterilizers
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56317 From: sevenspringss Date: 12/23/2014
Subject: Re: Still chuggin' a long
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56318 From: sevenspringss Date: 12/23/2014
Subject: Re: Still chuggin' a long
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56319 From: pam andress Date: 12/23/2014
Subject: Re: Still chuggin' a long
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56320 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 12/24/2014
Subject: Happy holidays and thank you!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56321 From: sevenspringss Date: 12/24/2014
Subject: Re: Happy holidays and thank you!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56322 From: mrsbige Date: 12/24/2014
Subject: Re: Still chuggin' a long
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56323 From: deenerzz Date: 12/24/2014
Subject: Re: Still chuggin' a long
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56324 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 12/25/2014
Subject: Re: Happy holidays and thank you!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56325 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 12/26/2014
Subject: Questions on re-establishing tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56326 From: sevenspringss Date: 12/26/2014
Subject: Re: Questions on re-establishing tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56327 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 12/28/2014
Subject: Re: Questions on re-establishing tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56328 From: sevenspringss Date: 12/28/2014
Subject: Re: Questions on re-establishing tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56329 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 12/29/2014
Subject: Aquarium Sand
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56330 From: sevenspringss Date: 12/29/2014
Subject: Re: Aquarium Sand
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56331 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 12/29/2014
Subject: Re: Aquarium Sand
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56332 From: sevenspringss Date: 12/29/2014
Subject: Re: Aquarium Sand
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56333 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 12/29/2014
Subject: Re: Aquarium Sand
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56334 From: sevenspringss Date: 12/29/2014
Subject: Re: Aquarium Sand
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56335 From: Harry Leverett Date: 12/29/2014
Subject: Re: Aquarium Sand
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56336 From: Donna Ransome Date: 12/29/2014
Subject: Re: Aquarium Sand
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56337 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 12/29/2014
Subject: pH & High Range pH
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56338 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 12/29/2014
Subject: Re: Aquarium Sand
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56339 From: sevenspringss Date: 12/29/2014
Subject: Re: pH & High Range pH
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56340 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 12/30/2014
Subject: Re: Questions on re-establishing tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56341 From: sevenspringss Date: 12/30/2014
Subject: Re: Questions on re-establishing tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56342 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 12/31/2014
Subject: Re: Questions on re-establishing tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56343 From: sevenspringss Date: 12/31/2014
Subject: Re: Questions on re-establishing tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56344 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 12/31/2014
Subject: Re: Questions on re-establishing tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56345 From: sevenspringss Date: 12/31/2014
Subject: Re: Questions on re-establishing tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56346 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 1/1/2015
Subject: First try at plants in aquarium
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56347 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 1/1/2015
Subject: Question on Fluval set-up
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56348 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 1/2/2015
Subject: Numbers
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56349 From: ptimlin Date: 1/2/2015
Subject: Re: Question on Fluval set-up
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56350 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 1/2/2015
Subject: Re: Question on Fluval set-up
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56351 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/2/2015
Subject: Re: Numbers
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56352 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 1/2/2015
Subject: Re: Numbers
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56353 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 1/2/2015
Subject: Re: Question on Fluval set-up
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56354 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 1/2/2015
Subject: Re: Question on Fluval set-up
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56355 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 1/2/2015
Subject: Re: Question on Fluval set-up
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56356 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 1/3/2015
Subject: Re: Question on Fluval set-up
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56357 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 1/3/2015
Subject: Re: Question on Fluval set-up
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56358 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 1/3/2015
Subject: Re: Questions on re-establishing tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56359 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/3/2015
Subject: Re: Questions on re-establishing tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56360 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/3/2015
Subject: Re: Questions on re-establishing tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56361 From: David Davis Date: 1/4/2015
Subject: Re: Questions on re-establishing tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56362 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/4/2015
Subject: Re: Questions on re-establishing tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56363 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 1/4/2015
Subject: Re: Questions on re-establishing tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56364 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 1/4/2015
Subject: Re: Questions on re-establishing tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56365 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/4/2015
Subject: Re: Questions on re-establishing tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56366 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 1/4/2015
Subject: Re: Questions on re-establishing tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56367 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/5/2015
Subject: Re: Questions on re-establishing tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56368 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 1/5/2015
Subject: Re: Questions on re-establishing tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56369 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/5/2015
Subject: Re: Questions on re-establishing tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56370 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 1/5/2015
Subject: Numbers for 1/5
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56371 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 1/5/2015
Subject: Re: Questions on re-establishing tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56372 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/5/2015
Subject: Re: Questions on re-establishing tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56373 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/5/2015
Subject: Re: Numbers for 1/5
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56374 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 1/5/2015
Subject: Re: Numbers for 1/5
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56375 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/5/2015
Subject: Re: Numbers for 1/5
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56376 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 1/5/2015
Subject: Re: Question on Fluval set-up
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56377 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 1/5/2015
Subject: Re: Question on Fluval set-up
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56378 From: deenerzz Date: 1/5/2015
Subject: Re: Question on Fluval set-up
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56379 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 1/5/2015
Subject: Re: Questions on re-establishing tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56380 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 1/5/2015
Subject: Numbers for 55 Gal 1/5/15
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56381 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/5/2015
Subject: Re: Question on Fluval set-up
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56382 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/5/2015
Subject: Re: Questions on re-establishing tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56383 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/5/2015
Subject: Re: Numbers for 55 Gal 1/5/15
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56384 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 1/6/2015
Subject: Re: Questions on re-establishing tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56385 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 1/6/2015
Subject: Re: Numbers for 55 Gal 1/5/15
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56386 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 1/6/2015
Subject: Re: Question on Fluval set-up
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56387 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/6/2015
Subject: Re: Questions on re-establishing tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56388 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/6/2015
Subject: Re: Numbers for 55 Gal 1/5/15
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56389 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 1/6/2015
Subject: Numbers for 55 Gal snd 10 Gal 1/6/15
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56390 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/6/2015
Subject: Re: Numbers for 55 Gal snd 10 Gal 1/6/15
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56391 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 1/6/2015
Subject: Re: Numbers for 55 Gal 1/5/15
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56392 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 1/6/2015
Subject: Re: Numbers for 55 Gal snd 10 Gal 1/6/15
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56393 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/6/2015
Subject: Re: Numbers for 55 Gal 1/5/15
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56394 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/6/2015
Subject: Re: Numbers for 55 Gal snd 10 Gal 1/6/15
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56395 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 1/6/2015
Subject: Re: Numbers for 55 Gal 1/5/15
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56396 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/6/2015
Subject: Re: Numbers for 55 Gal 1/5/15
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56397 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 1/6/2015
Subject: Re: Numbers for 55 Gal snd 10 Gal 1/6/15
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56398 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 1/6/2015
Subject: Re: Numbers for 55 Gal 1/5/15
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56399 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/6/2015
Subject: Re: Numbers for 55 Gal snd 10 Gal 1/6/15
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56400 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/6/2015
Subject: Re: Numbers for 55 Gal 1/5/15
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56401 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 1/6/2015
Subject: Re: Updsted test result numbers 55 Gal snd 10 Gal 1/6/15
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56402 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 1/6/2015
Subject: Re: Numbers for 55 Gal 1/5/15
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56403 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/6/2015
Subject: Re: Numbers for 55 Gal 1/5/15
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56404 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/6/2015
Subject: Re: Updsted test result numbers 55 Gal snd 10 Gal 1/6/15
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56405 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 1/6/2015
Subject: Re: 2nd round Updated Numbers 55 Gal snd 10 Gal 1/6/15
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56406 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/6/2015
Subject: Re: 2nd round Updated Numbers 55 Gal snd 10 Gal 1/6/15
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56407 From: deenerzz Date: 1/6/2015
Subject: Re: Question on Fluval set-up
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56408 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 1/6/2015
Subject: Re: Question on Fluval set-up
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56409 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 1/6/2015
Subject: Re: 2nd round Updated Numbers 55 Gal snd 10 Gal 1/6/15u
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56410 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 1/6/2015
Subject: Re: Question on Fluval set-up
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56411 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/6/2015
Subject: Re: Question on Fluval set-up
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56412 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/6/2015
Subject: Re: 2nd round Updated Numbers 55 Gal snd 10 Gal 1/6/15u
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56413 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 1/7/2015
Subject: Re: Question on Fluval set-up
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56414 From: Harry Leverett Date: 1/7/2015
Subject: Aging water
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56415 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 1/7/2015
Subject: Re: Aging water
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56416 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/7/2015
Subject: Re: Aging water
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56417 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 1/7/2015
Subject: Water test results for 55 gal and 10 gal
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56418 From: Harry Leverett Date: 1/7/2015
Subject: Re: Aging water
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56419 From: Harry Leverett Date: 1/7/2015
Subject: Re: Aging water
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56420 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/7/2015
Subject: Re: Water test results for 55 gal and 10 gal
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56421 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/7/2015
Subject: Re: Aging water
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56422 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 1/7/2015
Subject: Re: Water test results for 55 gal and 10 gal
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56423 From: Harry Leverett Date: 1/7/2015
Subject: Re: Aging water
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56424 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/7/2015
Subject: Re: Water test results for 55 gal and 10 gal
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56425 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 1/7/2015
Subject: Re: 2nd round Updated Numbers 55 Gal snd 10 Gal 1/6/15u
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56426 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/7/2015
Subject: Re: 2nd round Updated Numbers 55 Gal snd 10 Gal 1/6/15u
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56427 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 1/7/2015
Subject: Re: 2nd round Updated Numbers 55 Gal snd 10 Gal 1/6/15u
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56428 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 1/7/2015
Subject: Re: Water test results for 55 gal and 10 gal
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56429 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/7/2015
Subject: Re: Water test results for 55 gal and 10 gal
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56430 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/7/2015
Subject: Re: 2nd round Updated Numbers 55 Gal snd 10 Gal 1/6/15u
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56431 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 1/7/2015
Subject: Re: Water test results for 55 gal and 10 gal
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56432 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/7/2015
Subject: Re: O/T - Water test results for 55 gal and 10 gal
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56433 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 1/7/2015
Subject: Re: 2nd round Updated Numbers 55 Gal snd 10 Gal 1/6/15u
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56434 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 1/7/2015
Subject: Re: O/T - Water test results for 55 gal and 10 gal
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56435 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/7/2015
Subject: Re: 2nd round Updated Numbers 55 Gal snd 10 Gal 1/6/15u
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56436 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 1/8/2015
Subject: Re: 2nd round Updated Numbers 55 Gal snd 10 Gal 1/6/15u
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56437 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/8/2015
Subject: Re: 2nd round Updated Numbers 55 Gal snd 10 Gal 1/6/15u
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56438 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 1/8/2015
Subject: Numbers for 1/8
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56439 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/8/2015
Subject: Re: Numbers for 1/8
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56440 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 1/8/2015
Subject: Re: 2nd round Updated Numbers 55 Gal snd 10 Gal 1/6/15u
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56441 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/8/2015
Subject: Re: 2nd round Updated Numbers 55 Gal snd 10 Gal 1/6/15u
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56442 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 1/8/2015
Subject: Re: 2nd round Updated Numbers 55 Gal snd 10 Gal 1/6/15u
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56443 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/8/2015
Subject: Re: 2nd round Updated Numbers 55 Gal snd 10 Gal 1/6/15u
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56444 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 1/8/2015
Subject: Re: 2nd round Updated Numbers 55 Gal snd 10 Gal 1/6/15u
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56445 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/8/2015
Subject: Re: 2nd round Updated Numbers 55 Gal snd 10 Gal 1/6/15u
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56446 From: PAULA BROWN Date: 1/16/2015
Subject: LED Light Question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56447 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 1/16/2015
Subject: Re: LED Light Question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56448 From: PAULA BROWN Date: 1/16/2015
Subject: Re: LED Light Question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56449 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 1/16/2015
Subject: Re: LED Light Question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56450 From: PAULA BROWN Date: 1/16/2015
Subject: Re: LED Light Question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56451 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 1/17/2015
Subject: Re: LED Light Question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56452 From: Just Date: 1/21/2015
Subject: Re: aquaticlife
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56453 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 1/22/2015
Subject: Fwd: [AquaticLife] Re: aquaticlife
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56454 From: Harry Leverett Date: 1/24/2015
Subject: Columnaris
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56455 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/24/2015
Subject: Re: Columnaris
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56456 From: Harry Leverett Date: 1/25/2015
Subject: Re: Columnaris
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56457 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/25/2015
Subject: Re: Columnaris
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56458 From: Harry Leverett Date: 1/25/2015
Subject: Re: Columnaris
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56459 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/25/2015
Subject: Re: Columnaris
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56460 From: Harry Leverett Date: 1/25/2015
Subject: Re: Columnaris
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56461 From: Harry Leverett Date: 1/25/2015
Subject: Re: Columnaris
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56462 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/25/2015
Subject: Re: Columnaris
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56463 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 1/25/2015
Subject: Cycled
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56464 From: Harry Leverett Date: 1/25/2015
Subject: Re: Columnaris
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56465 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 1/25/2015
Subject: Re: Cycled
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56466 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 1/25/2015
Subject: Re: Cycled
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56467 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 1/26/2015
Subject: Re: Cycled
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56468 From: Noura T. Date: 1/27/2015
Subject: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56469 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 1/27/2015
Subject: Re: Columnaris
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56470 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/27/2015
Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56471 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/27/2015
Subject: Re: Columnaris
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56472 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 1/27/2015
Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56473 From: Harry Leverett Date: 1/27/2015
Subject: Re: Columnaris
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56474 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/27/2015
Subject: Re: Columnaris
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56475 From: noura_taweel Date: 1/27/2015
Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56476 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/27/2015
Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56477 From: noura_taweel Date: 1/27/2015
Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56478 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/27/2015
Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56479 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/27/2015
Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56480 From: noura_taweel Date: 1/27/2015
Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56481 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/27/2015
Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56482 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 1/27/2015
Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56483 From: noura_taweel Date: 1/27/2015
Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56484 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/27/2015
Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56485 From: noura_taweel Date: 1/28/2015
Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56486 From: noura_taweel Date: 1/28/2015
Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56487 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 1/28/2015
Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56488 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/28/2015
Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56489 From: noura_taweel Date: 1/30/2015
Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56490 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/30/2015
Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56491 From: noura_taweel Date: 1/30/2015
Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56492 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/30/2015
Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56493 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/30/2015
Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56494 From: noura_taweel Date: 1/31/2015
Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56495 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/31/2015
Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56496 From: Harry Leverett Date: 1/31/2015
Subject: disinfectant solution
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56497 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/31/2015
Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56498 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/31/2015
Subject: Re: disinfectant solution
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56499 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 1/31/2015
Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56500 From: Harry Leverett Date: 1/31/2015
Subject: Re: disinfectant solution
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56501 From: noura_taweel Date: 1/31/2015
Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56502 From: Harry Leverett Date: 1/31/2015
Subject: Fluval FX
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56503 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/31/2015
Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56504 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 1/31/2015
Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56505 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/31/2015
Subject: Re: Fluval FX
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56506 From: Harry Leverett Date: 1/31/2015
Subject: Re: Fluval FX
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56507 From: noura_taweel Date: 1/31/2015
Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56508 From: noura_taweel Date: 1/31/2015
Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56509 From: noura_taweel Date: 1/31/2015
Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56510 From: Harry Leverett Date: 1/31/2015
Subject: Re: Fluval FX
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56511 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/31/2015
Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56512 From: Donna Ransome Date: 1/31/2015
Subject: Re: Fluval FX
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56513 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/31/2015
Subject: Re: Fluval FX
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56514 From: noura_taweel Date: 1/31/2015
Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56515 From: sevenspringss Date: 2/1/2015
Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56516 From: Noura T. Date: 2/1/2015
Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56517 From: sevenspringss Date: 2/1/2015
Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56518 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 2/1/2015
Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56519 From: sevenspringss Date: 2/1/2015
Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56520 From: Harry Leverett Date: 2/1/2015
Subject: Antibiotics
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56521 From: Noura T. Date: 2/1/2015
Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56522 From: Noura T. Date: 2/1/2015
Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56523 From: Noura T. Date: 2/1/2015
Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56524 From: Harry Leverett Date: 2/1/2015
Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56525 From: sevenspringss Date: 2/1/2015
Subject: Re: Antibiotics
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56526 From: Harry Leverett Date: 2/1/2015
Subject: Re: Antibiotics
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56527 From: sevenspringss Date: 2/1/2015
Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56528 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 2/1/2015
Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56529 From: Noura T. Date: 2/1/2015
Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56530 From: Noura T. Date: 2/1/2015
Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56531 From: Kevin Boyle Date: 2/1/2015
Subject: Re: Antibiotics
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56532 From: Harry Leverett Date: 2/1/2015
Subject: Re: Antibiotics
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56533 From: sevenspringss Date: 2/1/2015
Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56534 From: sevenspringss Date: 2/1/2015
Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56535 From: sevenspringss Date: 2/1/2015
Subject: Re: Antibiotics
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56536 From: Noura T. Date: 2/2/2015
Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56537 From: Noura T. Date: 2/2/2015
Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56538 From: Harry Leverett Date: 2/2/2015
Subject: Re: Antibiotics
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56539 From: sevenspringss Date: 2/2/2015
Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56540 From: sevenspringss Date: 2/2/2015
Subject: Re: Antibiotics
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56541 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 2/2/2015
Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56542 From: Noura T. Date: 2/2/2015
Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56543 From: Noura T. Date: 2/2/2015
Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56544 From: sevenspringss Date: 2/2/2015
Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56545 From: David Davis Date: 2/2/2015
Subject: Re: Antibiotics
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56546 From: Noura T. Date: 2/2/2015
Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56547 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 2/2/2015
Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56548 From: sevenspringss Date: 2/2/2015
Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56549 From: Noura T. Date: 2/3/2015
Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56550 From: dmctjc Date: 2/3/2015
Subject: Moving
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56551 From: Donna Ransome Date: 2/3/2015
Subject: Re: Moving
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56552 From: andy_peltier Date: 2/3/2015
Subject: 29 gallon
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56553 From: andy_peltier Date: 2/3/2015
Subject: Re: 29 gallon
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56554 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 2/3/2015
Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56555 From: Noura T. Date: 2/3/2015
Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56556 From: Noura T. Date: 2/3/2015
Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56557 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 2/3/2015
Subject: Re: Moving
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56558 From: sevenspringss Date: 2/3/2015
Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56559 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 2/3/2015
Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56560 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 2/3/2015
Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56561 From: Noura T. Date: 2/3/2015
Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56562 From: Noura T. Date: 2/3/2015
Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56563 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 2/3/2015
Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56564 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 2/3/2015
Subject: Re: 29 gallon
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56565 From: Noura T. Date: 2/3/2015
Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56566 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 2/3/2015
Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56567 From: dmctjc Date: 2/4/2015
Subject: Re: Moving
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56568 From: sevenspringss Date: 2/4/2015
Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56569 From: sevenspringss Date: 2/4/2015
Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56570 From: sevenspringss Date: 2/4/2015
Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56571 From: sevenspringss Date: 2/4/2015
Subject: Re: Moving
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56572 From: Donna Stannard Camp Date: 2/4/2015
Subject: Re: Moving
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56573 From: sevenspringss Date: 2/4/2015
Subject: Re: Moving
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56574 From: sevenspringss Date: 2/4/2015
Subject: Re: 29 gallon
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56575 From: Donna Stannard Camp Date: 2/4/2015
Subject: Re: Moving
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56576 From: andy_peltier Date: 2/4/2015
Subject: Re: 29 gallon
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56577 From: Noura T. Date: 2/4/2015
Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56578 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 2/4/2015
Subject: Re: 29 gallon
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56579 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 2/4/2015
Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56580 From: sevenspringss Date: 2/4/2015
Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56581 From: Noura T. Date: 2/5/2015
Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56582 From: sevenspringss Date: 2/5/2015
Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56583 From: andy_peltier Date: 2/5/2015
Subject: Re: 29 gallon
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56584 From: sevenspringss Date: 2/5/2015
Subject: Re: 29 gallon
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56585 From: Noura T. Date: 2/5/2015
Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56586 From: sevenspringss Date: 2/5/2015
Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56587 From: Noura T. Date: 2/5/2015
Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56588 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 2/5/2015
Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56589 From: harryleverett60 Date: 2/6/2015
Subject: Quarantine Tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56590 From: Donna Ransome Date: 2/6/2015
Subject: Re: Quarantine Tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56591 From: andy_peltier Date: 2/6/2015
Subject: Re: 29 gallon
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56592 From: sevenspringss Date: 2/6/2015
Subject: Re: Quarantine Tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56593 From: Harry Leverett Date: 2/6/2015
Subject: Re: Quarantine Tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56594 From: harryleverett60 Date: 2/6/2015
Subject: Rock work
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56595 From: Donna Ransome Date: 2/6/2015
Subject: Re: Rock work
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56596 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 2/6/2015
Subject: Re: 29 gallon
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56597 From: Harry Leverett Date: 2/6/2015
Subject: Re: Rock work
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56598 From: Donna Ransome Date: 2/6/2015
Subject: Re: Rock work
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56599 From: Harry Leverett Date: 2/6/2015
Subject: Re: Rock work
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56600 From: andy_peltier Date: 2/6/2015
Subject: Re: 29 gallon
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56601 From: Donna Ransome Date: 2/6/2015
Subject: Re: Rock work
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56602 From: Harry Leverett Date: 2/6/2015
Subject: Re: Rock work
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56603 From: Donna Ransome Date: 2/6/2015
Subject: Re: Rock work
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56604 From: sevenspringss Date: 2/6/2015
Subject: Re: Quarantine Tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56605 From: sevenspringss Date: 2/6/2015
Subject: Re: Rock work
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56606 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 2/6/2015
Subject: Re: 29 gallon
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56607 From: sevenspringss Date: 2/6/2015
Subject: Re: Rock work
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56608 From: Harry Leverett Date: 2/6/2015
Subject: Re: Rock work
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56609 From: sevenspringss Date: 2/6/2015
Subject: Re: Rock work
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56610 From: Terri Ferrier Date: 2/6/2015
Subject: Re: Rock work
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56611 From: sevenspringss Date: 2/6/2015
Subject: Re: Rock work
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56612 From: Harry Leverett Date: 2/6/2015
Subject: Re: Rock work
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56613 From: sevenspringss Date: 2/6/2015
Subject: Re: 29 gallon
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56614 From: Harry Leverett Date: 2/6/2015
Subject: Re: Rock work
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56615 From: deenerzz Date: 2/6/2015
Subject: Re: Rock work
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56616 From: sevenspringss Date: 2/7/2015
Subject: Re: Rock work
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56617 From: sevenspringss Date: 2/7/2015
Subject: Re: Rock work
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56618 From: Donna Ransome Date: 2/7/2015
Subject: Re: Rock work
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56619 From: harryleverett60 Date: 2/9/2015
Subject: Flagstone ?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56620 From: sevenspringss Date: 2/9/2015
Subject: Re: Flagstone ?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56621 From: Harry Leverett Date: 2/9/2015
Subject: Re: Flagstone ?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56622 From: David Davis Date: 2/9/2015
Subject: Re: Flagstone ?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56623 From: sevenspringss Date: 2/9/2015
Subject: Re: Flagstone ?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56624 From: sevenspringss Date: 2/9/2015
Subject: Re: Flagstone ?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56625 From: Harry Leverett Date: 2/9/2015
Subject: Re: Flagstone ?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56626 From: andy_peltier Date: 2/10/2015
Subject: Re: 29 gallon
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56627 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 2/11/2015
Subject: Re: 29 gallon
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56628 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 2/11/2015
Subject: Balloon Molly Pregnant
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56629 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 2/15/2015
Subject: Re: Balloon Molly Pregnant
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56630 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 2/15/2015
Subject: Re: Balloon Molly Pregnant
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56631 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 2/15/2015
Subject: Pregnant Molly?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56632 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 2/15/2015
Subject: Re: Balloon Molly Pregnant
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56633 From: harryleverett60 Date: 3/1/2015
Subject: CaribSea Cichlid sand
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56634 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 3/1/2015
Subject: Re: CaribSea Cichlid sand
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56635 From: Harry Leverett Date: 3/1/2015
Subject: Re: CaribSea Cichlid sand
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56636 From: Donna Ransome Date: 3/1/2015
Subject: Re: CaribSea Cichlid sand
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56637 From: Harry Leverett Date: 3/1/2015
Subject: Re: CaribSea Cichlid sand
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56638 From: Donna Ransome Date: 3/1/2015
Subject: Re: CaribSea Cichlid sand
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56639 From: Harry Leverett Date: 3/1/2015
Subject: Re: CaribSea Cichlid sand
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56640 From: sevenspringss Date: 3/1/2015
Subject: Re: CaribSea Cichlid sand
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56641 From: Harry Leverett Date: 3/2/2015
Subject: Re: CaribSea Cichlid sand
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56642 From: sevenspringss Date: 3/2/2015
Subject: Re: CaribSea Cichlid sand
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56643 From: lgb9999027 Date: 3/27/2015
Subject: goldfish problem - help needed
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56644 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 3/27/2015
Subject: Re: goldfish problem - help needed
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56645 From: Larry Blanchard Date: 3/27/2015
Subject: Re: goldfish problem - help needed
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56646 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 3/28/2015
Subject: Re: goldfish problem - help needed
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56647 From: Larry Blanchard Date: 3/30/2015
Subject: Re: goldfish problem - help needed
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56648 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 3/30/2015
Subject: Re: goldfish problem - help needed
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56649 From: David Davis Date: 3/31/2015
Subject: Re: goldfish problem - help needed
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56650 From: Larry Blanchard Date: 3/31/2015
Subject: Re: goldfish problem - help needed
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56651 From: Trevor Holyoak Date: 3/31/2015
Subject: Speaking of Petsmart...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56652 From: David Davis Date: 3/31/2015
Subject: Re: Speaking of Petsmart...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56653 From: Susan Small Date: 3/31/2015
Subject: Re: Speaking of Petsmart...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56654 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 3/31/2015
Subject: Re: goldfish problem - help needed
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56655 From: Trevor Holyoak Date: 3/31/2015
Subject: Re: Speaking of Petsmart...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56656 From: deenerzz Date: 3/31/2015
Subject: Re: Speaking of Petsmart...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56657 From: sevenspringss Date: 3/31/2015
Subject: Re: Speaking of Petsmart...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56658 From: Trevor Holyoak Date: 3/31/2015
Subject: Re: Speaking of Petsmart...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56659 From: Susan Small Date: 3/31/2015
Subject: Re: Speaking of Petsmart...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56660 From: sevenspringss Date: 3/31/2015
Subject: Re: Speaking of Petsmart...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56661 From: Trevor Holyoak Date: 3/31/2015
Subject: Re: Speaking of Petsmart...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56662 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 3/31/2015
Subject: Re: goldfish problem - help needed
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56663 From: sevenspringss Date: 3/31/2015
Subject: Re: goldfish problem - help needed
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56664 From: susansmall87 Date: 3/31/2015
Subject: Re: Speaking of Petsmart...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56665 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 3/31/2015
Subject: Re: goldfish problem - help needed
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56666 From: Larry Blanchard Date: 3/31/2015
Subject: Re: goldfish problem - help needed
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56667 From: Larry Blanchard Date: 3/31/2015
Subject: Re: Speaking of Petsmart...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56668 From: sevenspringss Date: 3/31/2015
Subject: Re: Speaking of Petsmart...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56669 From: drums4charity Date: 4/2/2015
Subject: Need fish in ATL
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56670 From: Andy Mills Date: 4/6/2015
Subject: Snowdrop pleco?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56671 From: sevenspringss Date: 4/6/2015
Subject: Re: Snowdrop pleco?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56672 From: Kevin Boyle Date: 4/6/2015
Subject: Re: Snowdrop pleco?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56673 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 4/6/2015
Subject: Re: Snowdrop pleco?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56674 From: Angela Cancilla Herschel Date: 4/11/2015
Subject: "Honey" Moray Eel Remembers
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56675 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 4/12/2015
Subject: Re: "Honey" Moray Eel Remembers
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56676 From: lgb9999027 Date: 4/12/2015
Subject: Re: goldfish problem - help needed
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56677 From: sevenspringss Date: 4/12/2015
Subject: Re: goldfish problem - help needed
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56678 From: Trevor Holyoak Date: 4/12/2015
Subject: Re: Speaking of Petsmart...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56679 From: sevenspringss Date: 4/12/2015
Subject: Re: Speaking of Petsmart...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56680 From: Larry Blanchard Date: 4/13/2015
Subject: Re: goldfish problem - help needed
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56681 From: sevenspringss Date: 4/13/2015
Subject: Re: goldfish problem - help needed
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56682 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 4/13/2015
Subject: Re: goldfish problem - help needed
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56683 From: Patrick A. Timlin Date: 4/14/2015
Subject: Re: goldfish problem - help needed
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56684 From: Larry Blanchard Date: 4/14/2015
Subject: Re: goldfish problem - help needed
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56685 From: Larry Blanchard Date: 4/14/2015
Subject: Re: goldfish problem - help needed
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56686 From: sevenspringss Date: 4/14/2015
Subject: Re: goldfish problem - help needed
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56687 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 4/14/2015
Subject: Re: goldfish problem - help needed
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56688 From: Larry Blanchard Date: 4/14/2015
Subject: Re: goldfish problem - help needed
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56689 From: Larry Blanchard Date: 4/14/2015
Subject: Re: goldfish problem - help needed
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56690 From: susansmall87 Date: 4/15/2015
Subject: Re: Speaking of Petsmart...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56691 From: lgb9999027 Date: 4/15/2015
Subject: Re: goldfish problem - help needed
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56692 From: sevenspringss Date: 4/15/2015
Subject: Re: goldfish problem - help needed
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56693 From: Larry Blanchard Date: 4/16/2015
Subject: Re: goldfish problem - help needed
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56694 From: sevenspringss Date: 4/16/2015
Subject: Re: goldfish problem - help needed
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56695 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 4/16/2015
Subject: Re: goldfish problem - help needed
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56696 From: sevenspringss Date: 4/16/2015
Subject: Re: goldfish problem - help needed
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56697 From: Larry Blanchard Date: 4/16/2015
Subject: Re: goldfish problem - help needed
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56698 From: Larry Blanchard Date: 4/16/2015
Subject: Re: goldfish problem - help needed
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56699 From: Larry Blanchard Date: 4/16/2015
Subject: Re: goldfish problem - help needed
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56700 From: sevenspringss Date: 4/16/2015
Subject: Re: goldfish problem - help needed
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56701 From: sevenspringss Date: 4/16/2015
Subject: Re: goldfish problem - help needed
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56702 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 4/17/2015
Subject: Re: goldfish problem - help needed
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56703 From: Acer Myron Date: 4/17/2015
Subject: Re: goldfish problem - help needed
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56704 From: Larry Blanchard Date: 4/17/2015
Subject: Re: goldfish problem - help needed
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56705 From: Larry Blanchard Date: 4/17/2015
Subject: Re: goldfish problem - help needed
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56706 From: sevenspringss Date: 4/17/2015
Subject: Re: goldfish problem - help needed
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56707 From: sevenspringss Date: 4/17/2015
Subject: Re: goldfish problem - help needed
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56708 From: Trevor Holyoak Date: 4/17/2015
Subject: Re: goldfish problem - help needed
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56709 From: Larry Blanchard Date: 4/18/2015
Subject: Re: goldfish problem - help needed
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56710 From: Larry Blanchard Date: 4/18/2015
Subject: Re: goldfish problem - help needed
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56711 From: Larry Blanchard Date: 4/18/2015
Subject: Re: goldfish problem - help needed
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56712 From: sevenspringss Date: 4/18/2015
Subject: Re: goldfish problem - help needed
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56713 From: joe t Date: 4/18/2015
Subject: Re: goldfish problem - help needed
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56714 From: Larry Blanchard Date: 4/18/2015
Subject: Re: goldfish problem - help needed
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56715 From: Larry Blanchard Date: 4/18/2015
Subject: Re: goldfish problem - help needed
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56716 From: Larry Blanchard Date: 4/19/2015
Subject: Re: goldfish problem - help needed
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56717 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 4/25/2015
Subject: Petting Blood Parrot
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56718 From: Donna Ransome Date: 4/25/2015
Subject: Advice for Showing Fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56719 From: sevenspringss Date: 4/25/2015
Subject: Re: Advice for Showing Fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56720 From: Donna Ransome Date: 4/25/2015
Subject: Re: Advice for Showing Fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56721 From: jett07002 Date: 4/26/2015
Subject: Re: Advice for Showing Fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56722 From: Harry Leverett Date: 4/26/2015
Subject: Re: Advice for Showing Fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56723 From: sevenspringss Date: 4/26/2015
Subject: Re: Advice for Showing Fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56724 From: pamandress23 Date: 4/26/2015
Subject: Re: Advice for Showing Fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56725 From: Angela Cancilla Herschel Date: 4/29/2015
Subject: Diver Helps Puffer Fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56726 From: David Davis Date: 4/30/2015
Subject: Re: Diver Helps Puffer Fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56727 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 4/30/2015
Subject: Re: Diver Helps Puffer Fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56728 From: Andy Mills Date: 5/12/2015
Subject: Filopaludina snails
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56729 From: Andy Mills Date: 5/16/2015
Subject: Filopaludina snails
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56730 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 5/16/2015
Subject: Re: Filopaludina snails
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56731 From: Harry Perry Date: 5/16/2015
Subject: Re: Filopaludina snails
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56732 From: Andy Mills Date: 5/17/2015
Subject: Re: Filopaludina snails
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56733 From: Enid Rodriguez Date: 5/17/2015
Subject: Re: Filopaludina snails
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56734 From: deenerzz Date: 5/17/2015
Subject: Re: Filopaludina snails
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56735 From: amejia1976 Date: 5/18/2015
Subject: 65 Gallon Aquarium in Second Floor
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56736 From: Trevor Holyoak Date: 5/18/2015
Subject: Re: 65 Gallon Aquarium in Second Floor
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56737 From: sevenspringss Date: 5/18/2015
Subject: Re: 65 Gallon Aquarium in Second Floor
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56738 From: Kevin Boyle Date: 5/18/2015
Subject: Re: 65 Gallon Aquarium in Second Floor
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56739 From: Alex Mejia Date: 5/19/2015
Subject: Re: 65 Gallon Aquarium in Second Floor
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56740 From: Alex Mejia Date: 5/19/2015
Subject: Re: 65 Gallon Aquarium in Second Floor
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56741 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 5/19/2015
Subject: Re: 65 Gallon Aquarium in Second Floor
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56742 From: o1bigtenor Date: 5/19/2015
Subject: Re: 65 Gallon Aquarium in Second Floor
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56743 From: Harry Leverett Date: 5/19/2015
Subject: Re: 65 Gallon Aquarium in Second Floor
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56744 From: Larry Blanchard Date: 5/19/2015
Subject: Re: 65 Gallon Aquarium in Second Floor
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56745 From: Larry Blanchard Date: 5/19/2015
Subject: Re: 65 Gallon Aquarium in Second Floor
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56746 From: jett07002 Date: 5/20/2015
Subject: Re: 65 Gallon Aquarium in Second Floor
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56747 From: Bharath Tonse Date: 5/21/2015
Subject: Re: 65 Gallon Aquarium in Second Floor
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56748 From: Andy Mills Date: 7/5/2015
Subject: Does anyone here buy fish online?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56749 From: bettijerseygirl Date: 7/5/2015
Subject: Re: Does anyone here buy fish online?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56750 From: Angela Cancilla Herschel Date: 7/5/2015
Subject: 5 Incredible Fish Behaviors Show How Intelligent They Really Are
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56751 From: Donna Ransome Date: 7/5/2015
Subject: Re: Does anyone here buy fish online?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56752 From: Donna Ransome Date: 7/5/2015
Subject: Re: Does anyone here buy fish online?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56753 From: Larry Blanchard Date: 7/6/2015
Subject: Re: Does anyone here buy fish online?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56754 From: Trevor Holyoak Date: 7/6/2015
Subject: Re: Does anyone here buy fish online?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56755 From: pamandress23 Date: 7/6/2015
Subject: Re: Does anyone here buy fish online?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56756 From: Kevin Boyle Date: 7/11/2015
Subject: Re: Does anyone here buy fish online?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56757 From: jett07002 Date: 7/12/2015
Subject: Re: Does anyone here buy fish online?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56758 From: Kevin Boyle Date: 7/12/2015
Subject: Re: Does anyone here buy fish online?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56759 From: andy_peltier Date: 7/17/2015
Subject: 75 gallon tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56760 From: sevenspringss Date: 7/17/2015
Subject: Re: 75 gallon tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56761 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 7/19/2015
Subject: Re: 75 gallon tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56762 From: sevenspringss Date: 7/19/2015
Subject: Re: 75 gallon tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56763 From: andy_peltier Date: 7/19/2015
Subject: Re: 75 gallon tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56764 From: sevenspringss Date: 7/19/2015
Subject: Re: 75 gallon tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56765 From: Rusty Barfield Date: 7/19/2015
Subject: Re: 75 gallon tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56766 From: sevenspringss Date: 7/19/2015
Subject: Re: 75 gallon tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56767 From: Rusty Barfield Date: 7/20/2015
Subject: Re: 75 gallon tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56768 From: jett07002 Date: 7/20/2015
Subject: Re: 75 gallon tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56769 From: sevenspringss Date: 7/20/2015
Subject: Re: 75 gallon tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56770 From: deenerzz Date: 7/20/2015
Subject: Re: 75 gallon tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56771 From: sevenspringss Date: 7/21/2015
Subject: Re: 75 gallon tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56772 From: noura_taweel Date: 7/22/2015
Subject: Hello everyone
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56773 From: sevenspringss Date: 7/22/2015
Subject: Re: Hello everyone
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56774 From: jett07002 Date: 7/22/2015
Subject: Re: 75 gallon tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56775 From: noura_taweel Date: 7/25/2015
Subject: Re: Hello everyone
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56776 From: sevenspringss Date: 7/25/2015
Subject: Re: Hello everyone
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56777 From: Noura T. Date: 7/25/2015
Subject: Re: Hello everyone
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56778 From: sevenspringss Date: 7/26/2015
Subject: Re: Hello everyone
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56779 From: Noura T. Date: 7/26/2015
Subject: Re: Hello everyone
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56780 From: Noura T. Date: 7/26/2015
Subject: Re: Hello everyone
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56781 From: Angela Cancilla Herschel Date: 7/26/2015
Subject: American Tortoise Rescue , needs help
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56782 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 7/28/2015
Subject: Re: Hello everyone
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56783 From: Noura T. Date: 7/29/2015
Subject: Re: Hello everyone
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56784 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 7/29/2015
Subject: Re: Hello everyone
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56785 From: PAULA BROWN Date: 7/29/2015
Subject: Re: Hello everyone
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56786 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 7/29/2015
Subject: Re: Hello everyone
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56787 From: PAULA BROWN Date: 7/29/2015
Subject: Re: Hello everyone
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56788 From: Andy Mills Date: 7/29/2015
Subject: Re: Hello everyone
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56789 From: sevenspringss Date: 7/30/2015
Subject: Re: Hello everyone
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56790 From: Nancy Lee Date: 7/30/2015
Subject: Re: Hello everyone
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56791 From: Larry Blanchard Date: 7/30/2015
Subject: Re: Hello everyone
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56792 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 7/30/2015
Subject: Re: Hello everyone
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56793 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 7/30/2015
Subject: Re: Hello everyone
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56794 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 7/30/2015
Subject: Re: Hello everyone
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56795 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 7/30/2015
Subject: Re: Hello everyone
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56796 From: Noura T. Date: 7/31/2015
Subject: Re: Hello everyone
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56797 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 8/1/2015
Subject: Re: Hello everyone
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56798 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 8/2/2015
Subject: Sprite Meets Marmalade-Introducing A New Goldfish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56799 From: sevenspringss Date: 8/2/2015
Subject: Re: Sprite Meets Marmalade-Introducing A New Goldfish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56800 From: Noura T. Date: 8/3/2015
Subject: Re: Sprite Meets Marmalade-Introducing A New Goldfish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56801 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 8/4/2015
Subject: Re: Sprite Meets Marmalade-Introducing A New Goldfish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56802 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 8/4/2015
Subject: Re: Sprite Meets Marmalade-Introducing A New Goldfish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56803 From: Angela Cancilla Herschel Date: 8/5/2015
Subject: Re: Sprite Meets Marmalade-Introducing A New Goldfish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56804 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 8/6/2015
Subject: Re: Sprite Meets Marmalade-Introducing A New Goldfish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56805 From: sevenspringss Date: 8/10/2015
Subject: Re: ALERT ! -- 75 gallon tank -- Resealing w/Silicone Sealant
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56806 From: noura_taweel Date: 8/11/2015
Subject: Dropsy
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56807 From: sevenspringss Date: 8/11/2015
Subject: Re: Dropsy
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56808 From: noura_taweel Date: 8/11/2015
Subject: Re: Dropsy
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56809 From: sevenspringss Date: 8/11/2015
Subject: Re: Dropsy
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56810 From: noura_taweel Date: 8/12/2015
Subject: Re: Dropsy
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56811 From: noura_taweel Date: 8/12/2015
Subject: Re: Dropsy
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56812 From: sevenspringss Date: 8/12/2015
Subject: Re: Dropsy
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56813 From: sevenspringss Date: 8/12/2015
Subject: Re: Dropsy
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56814 From: Rusty Barfield Date: 8/12/2015
Subject: Re: ALERT ! -- 75 gallon tank -- Resealing w/Silicone Sealant
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56815 From: sevenspringss Date: 8/12/2015
Subject: Re: ALERT ! -- 75 gallon tank -- Resealing w/Silicone Sealant
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56816 From: Noura T. Date: 8/12/2015
Subject: Re: Dropsy
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56817 From: sevenspringss Date: 8/12/2015
Subject: Re: Dropsy
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56818 From: noura_taweel Date: 8/12/2015
Subject: Re: Dropsy
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56819 From: sevenspringss Date: 8/12/2015
Subject: Re: Dropsy
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56820 From: sevenspringss Date: 8/12/2015
Subject: Re: Dropsy
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56821 From: Noura T. Date: 8/12/2015
Subject: Re: Dropsy
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56822 From: Trevor Holyoak Date: 8/12/2015
Subject: Re: Dropsy
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56823 From: sevenspringss Date: 8/12/2015
Subject: Re: Dropsy
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56824 From: sevenspringss Date: 8/12/2015
Subject: Re: Dropsy
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56825 From: Noura T. Date: 8/14/2015
Subject: Re: Dropsy
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56826 From: sevenspringss Date: 8/14/2015
Subject: Re: Dropsy
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56827 From: Andy Mills Date: 8/27/2015
Subject: Does anyone know anything about these snails
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56828 From: Dawn Moneyhan Date: 8/31/2015
Subject: Re: Does anyone know anything about these snails
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56829 From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: 11/3/2015
Subject: AquaticLife Yahoo! Fish Group ~ Founded: Nov 4, 2002, Wednesday, 04
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56830 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 11/4/2015
Subject: Re: AquaticLife Yahoo! Fish Group ~ Founded: Nov 4, 2002, Wednesday,
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56831 From: Noura T. Date: 11/4/2015
Subject: Re: AquaticLife Yahoo! Fish Group ~ Founded: Nov 4, 2002, Wednesday,
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56832 From: sevenspringss Date: 11/4/2015
Subject: Re: AquaticLife Yahoo! Fish Group ~ Founded: Nov 4, 2002, Wedne...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56833 From: sevenspringss Date: 11/4/2015
Subject: Re: AquaticLife Yahoo! Fish Group ~ Founded: Nov 4, 2002, Wedne...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56834 From: sevenspringss Date: 11/4/2015
Subject: Re: AquaticLife Yahoo! Fish Group ~ Founded: Nov 4, 2002, Wedne...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56835 From: o1bigtenor Date: 11/4/2015
Subject: Re: AquaticLife Yahoo! Fish Group ~ Founded: Nov 4, 2002, Wednesday,
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56836 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 11/4/2015
Subject: Re: AquaticLife Yahoo! Fish Group ~ Founded: Nov 4, 2002, Wednesday,
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56837 From: sevenspringss Date: 11/4/2015
Subject: Re: AquaticLife Yahoo! Fish Group ~ Founded: Nov 4, 2002, Wedne...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56838 From: Trevor Holyoak Date: 11/4/2015
Subject: Re: AquaticLife Yahoo! Fish Group ~ Founded: Nov 4, 2002, Wedne...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56839 From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c Date: 11/5/2015
Subject: Re: AquaticLife Yahoo! Fish Group ~ Founded: Nov 4, 2002, Wedne...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56840 From: Noura T. Date: 11/5/2015
Subject: Re: AquaticLife Yahoo! Fish Group ~ Founded: Nov 4, 2002, Wedne...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56841 From: Trevor Holyoak Date: 11/5/2015
Subject: Getting a FOWLR tank going again?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56842 From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c Date: 11/5/2015
Subject: Re: Getting a FOWLR tank going again?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56843 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 11/6/2015
Subject: Re: AquaticLife Yahoo! Fish Group ~ Founded: Nov 4, 2002, Wedne...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56844 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 11/6/2015
Subject: Re: AquaticLife Yahoo! Fish Group ~ Founded: Nov 4, 2002, Wedne...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56845 From: sevenspringss Date: 11/6/2015
Subject: Re: AquaticLife Yahoo! Fish Group ~ Founded: Nov 4, 2002, Wedne...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56846 From: sevenspringss Date: 11/6/2015
Subject: Re: AquaticLife Yahoo! Fish Group ~ Founded: Nov 4, 2002, Wedne...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56847 From: sevenspringss Date: 11/6/2015
Subject: Re: AquaticLife Yahoo! Fish Group ~ Founded: Nov 4, 2002, Wedne...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56848 From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c Date: 11/6/2015
Subject: Re: AquaticLife Yahoo! Fish Group ~ Founded: Nov 4, 2002, Wedne...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56849 From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c Date: 11/6/2015
Subject: Re: AquaticLife Yahoo! Fish Group ~ Founded: Nov 4, 2002, Wedne...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56850 From: Larry Blanchard Date: 11/6/2015
Subject: Re: AquaticLife Yahoo! Fish Group ~ Founded: Nov 4, 2002, Wedne...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56851 From: Harry Perry Date: 11/6/2015
Subject: Re: Larry
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56852 From: PAULA BROWN Date: 11/7/2015
Subject: Water Question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56853 From: sevenspringss Date: 11/7/2015
Subject: Re: Water Question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56854 From: PAULA BROWN Date: 11/7/2015
Subject: Re: Water Question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56855 From: sevenspringss Date: 11/7/2015
Subject: Re: Water Question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56856 From: PAULA BROWN Date: 11/7/2015
Subject: Re: Water Question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56857 From: Harry Perry Date: 11/7/2015
Subject: Re: Water Question,established tanks
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56858 From: sevenspringss Date: 11/7/2015
Subject: Re: Water Question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56859 From: sevenspringss Date: 11/7/2015
Subject: Re: Water Question,established tanks
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56860 From: sevenspringss Date: 11/7/2015
Subject: Re: Water Question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56861 From: Trevor Holyoak Date: 11/7/2015
Subject: Re: AquaticLife Yahoo! Fish Group ~ Founded: Nov 4, 2002, Wedne...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56862 From: sevenspringss Date: 11/7/2015
Subject: Re: AquaticLife Yahoo! Fish Group ~ Founded: Nov 4, 2002, Wedne...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56863 From: Larry Blanchard Date: 11/7/2015
Subject: Re: Water Question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56864 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 11/7/2015
Subject: Re: AquaticLife Yahoo! Fish Group ~ Founded: Nov 4, 2002, Wedne...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56865 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 11/7/2015
Subject: Re: Water Question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56866 From: sevenspringss Date: 11/7/2015
Subject: Re: Water Question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56867 From: PAULA BROWN Date: 11/7/2015
Subject: Re: Water Question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56868 From: PAULA BROWN Date: 11/7/2015
Subject: Re: Water Question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56869 From: PAULA BROWN Date: 11/7/2015
Subject: Re: Water Question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56870 From: sevenspringss Date: 11/8/2015
Subject: Re: Water Question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56871 From: sevenspringss Date: 11/8/2015
Subject: Re: Water Question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56872 From: PAULA BROWN Date: 11/8/2015
Subject: Re: Water Question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56873 From: PAULA BROWN Date: 11/8/2015
Subject: Re: Water Question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56874 From: Larry Blanchard Date: 11/8/2015
Subject: Re: Water Question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56875 From: PAULA BROWN Date: 11/8/2015
Subject: Water Problem
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56876 From: Noura T. Date: 11/8/2015
Subject: Re: AquaticLife Yahoo! Fish Group ~ Founded: Nov 4, 2002, Wedne...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56877 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 11/8/2015
Subject: Re: Water Question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56878 From: PAULA BROWN Date: 11/8/2015
Subject: Water Question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56879 From: Noura T. Date: 11/8/2015
Subject: Re: AquaticLife Yahoo! Fish Group
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56880 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 11/8/2015
Subject: Re: Water Question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56881 From: PAULA BROWN Date: 11/8/2015
Subject: Re: Water Question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56882 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 11/8/2015
Subject: Re: Water Question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56883 From: sevenspringss Date: 11/9/2015
Subject: Re: Water Question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56884 From: sevenspringss Date: 11/9/2015
Subject: Re: Water Question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56885 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 11/9/2015
Subject: Re: Water Question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56886 From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c Date: 11/9/2015
Subject: Re: AquaticLife Yahoo! Fish Group ~ Founded: Nov 4, 2002, Wedne...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56887 From: Larry Blanchard Date: 11/9/2015
Subject: Re: Water Question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56888 From: Larry Blanchard Date: 11/9/2015
Subject: Re: AquaticLife Yahoo! Fish Group ~ Founded: Nov 4, 2002, Wedne...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56889 From: sevenspringss Date: 11/9/2015
Subject: Re: Water Question
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56890 From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c Date: 11/10/2015
Subject: OT/Photo album in the group
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56891 From: Dawn Moneyhan Date: 11/10/2015
Subject: Dawn's OT Photos
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56892 From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c Date: 11/10/2015
Subject: Re: Dawn's OT Photos
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56893 From: PAULA BROWN Date: 11/10/2015
Subject: Water Question - Update
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56894 From: Harry Perry Date: 11/10/2015
Subject: Re: Pauls....Water Question - Update
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56895 From: sevenspringss Date: 11/10/2015
Subject: Re: Water Question - Update
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56896 From: o1bigtenor Date: 11/10/2015
Subject: Re: OT/Photo album in the group
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56897 From: o1bigtenor Date: 11/10/2015
Subject: Re: Dawn's OT Photos
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56898 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 11/11/2015
Subject: Re: Water Question - Update
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56899 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 11/11/2015
Subject: Re: OT/Photo album in the group
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56900 From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c Date: 11/11/2015
Subject: Re: Dawn's OT Photos
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56901 From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c Date: 11/12/2015
Subject: Re: OT/Photo album in the group
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56902 From: sevenspringss Date: 11/12/2015
Subject: Re: OT/Photo album in the group
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56903 From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c Date: 11/13/2015
Subject: Re: OT/Photo album in the group
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56904 From: sevenspringss Date: 11/13/2015
Subject: Re: OT/Photo album in the group
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56905 From: oldies1433 Date: 11/13/2015
Subject: Photo's????
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56906 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 11/13/2015
Subject: Re: Photo's????
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56907 From: Angela Cancilla Herschel Date: 11/13/2015
Subject: Hermit Crab
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56908 From: sevenspringss Date: 11/14/2015
Subject: Re: Hermit Crab
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56909 From: Angela Cancilla Herschel Date: 11/15/2015
Subject: Re: Hermit Crab
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56910 From: sevenspringss Date: 11/15/2015
Subject: Re: Hermit Crab
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56911 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 12/9/2015
Subject: Possible Gill Burns?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56912 From: noura_taweel Date: 12/9/2015
Subject: Ammonia burns (?)
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56913 From: Noura T. Date: 12/9/2015
Subject: Re: Possible Gill Burns?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56914 From: sevenspringss Date: 12/10/2015
Subject: Re: Possible Gill Burns?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56915 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 12/10/2015
Subject: Re: Possible Gill Burns?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56916 From: sevenspringss Date: 12/10/2015
Subject: Re: Possible Gill Burns?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56917 From: love_animals07 Date: 12/10/2015
Subject: Anyone here have experinece with raising killifish eggs???
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56918 From: sevenspringss Date: 12/10/2015
Subject: Re: Anyone here have experinece with raising killifish eggs???
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56919 From: Charles Harrison Date: 12/10/2015
Subject: Re: Anyone here have experinece with raising killifish eggs???
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56920 From: Amber Larr Date: 12/10/2015
Subject: Re: Anyone here have experinece with raising killifish eggs???
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56921 From: sevenspringss Date: 12/11/2015
Subject: Re: Anyone here have experinece with raising killifish eggs???
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56922 From: Amber Larr Date: 12/11/2015
Subject: Re: Anyone here have experinece with raising killifish eggs???
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56923 From: sevenspringss Date: 12/11/2015
Subject: Re: Anyone here have experinece with raising killifish eggs???
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56924 From: Amber Larr Date: 12/11/2015
Subject: Re: Anyone here have experinece with raising killifish eggs???
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56925 From: Jackie Date: 12/11/2015
Subject: Grass
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56926 From: Donna Ransome Date: 12/11/2015
Subject: Re: Grass
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56927 From: sevenspringss Date: 12/11/2015
Subject: Re: Anyone here have experinece with raising killifish eggs???
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56928 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 12/11/2015
Subject: Re: Grass
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56929 From: Charles Harrison Date: 12/11/2015
Subject: Re: Anyone here have experinece with raising killifish eggs???
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56930 From: Jim Forshey (Aquatic Book Shop) Date: 12/11/2015
Subject: Re: Anyone here have experinece with raising killifish eggs???
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56931 From: sevenspringss Date: 12/12/2015
Subject: Re: Anyone here have experinece with raising killifish eggs???
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56932 From: Charles Harrison Date: 12/12/2015
Subject: Re: Anyone here have experinece with raising killifish eggs???
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56933 From: Amber Larr Date: 12/12/2015
Subject: Re: Anyone here have experinece with raising killifish eggs???
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56934 From: Noura T. Date: 12/12/2015
Subject: Re: Possible Gill Burns?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56935 From: sevenspringss Date: 12/12/2015
Subject: Re: Possible Gill Burns?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56936 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 12/12/2015
Subject: Re: Possible Gill Burns?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56937 From: Amber Larr Date: 12/12/2015
Subject: Re: Anyone here have experinece with raising killifish eggs???
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56938 From: Charles Harrison Date: 12/12/2015
Subject: Re: Possible Gill Burns?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56939 From: Charles Harrison Date: 12/12/2015
Subject: Re: Anyone here have experinece with raising killifish eggs???
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56940 From: Noura T. Date: 12/13/2015
Subject: Re: Possible Gill Burns?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56941 From: Noura T. Date: 12/13/2015
Subject: Re: Possible Gill Burns?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56942 From: Charles Harrison Date: 12/13/2015
Subject: Re: Possible Gill Burns?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56943 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 12/13/2015
Subject: Re: Possible Gill Burns?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56944 From: Charles Harrison Date: 12/13/2015
Subject: Re: Possible Gill Burns?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56945 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 12/13/2015
Subject: Re: Possible Gill Burns?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56946 From: noura_taweel Date: 12/14/2015
Subject: Re: Possible Gill Burns?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56947 From: wilfredreims Date: 12/14/2015
Subject: Re: Anyone here have experinece with raising killifish eggs???
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56948 From: wilfredreims Date: 12/14/2015
Subject: Re: Anyone here have experinece with raising killifish eggs???
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56949 From: wilfredreims Date: 12/14/2015
Subject: Re: Anyone here have experinece with raising killifish eggs???
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56950 From: sevenspringss Date: 12/14/2015
Subject: Re: Possible Gill Burns?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56951 From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c Date: 12/14/2015
Subject: Re: Anyone here have experinece with raising killifish eggs???
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56952 From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c Date: 12/14/2015
Subject: Re: Grass
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56953 From: sevenspringss Date: 12/14/2015
Subject: Re: Anyone here have experinece with raising killifish eggs...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56954 From: Donna Ransome Date: 12/14/2015
Subject: Re: Grass
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56955 From: love_animals07 Date: 12/14/2015
Subject: Red lines at base of fins on SAEs!!!?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56956 From: Amber Larr Date: 12/14/2015
Subject: Re: Anyone here have experinece with raising killifish eggs???
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56957 From: sevenspringss Date: 12/14/2015
Subject: Re: Red lines at base of fins on SAEs!!!?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56958 From: Amber Larr Date: 12/15/2015
Subject: Re: Red lines at base of fins on SAEs!!!?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56959 From: sevenspringss Date: 12/15/2015
Subject: Re: Red lines at base of fins on SAEs!!!?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56960 From: Amber Larr Date: 12/15/2015
Subject: Re: Red lines at base of fins on SAEs!!!?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56961 From: sevenspringss Date: 12/23/2015
Subject: Re: Red lines at base of fins on SAEs!!!?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56962 From: Amber Larr Date: 12/23/2015
Subject: Re: Red lines at base of fins on SAEs!!!?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56963 From: sevenspringss Date: 12/24/2015
Subject: Re: Seasons Greetings
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56964 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 12/25/2015
Subject: Re: Seasons Greetings
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56965 From: noura_taweel Date: 12/26/2015
Subject: Guppy Fry
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56966 From: noura_taweel Date: 12/26/2015
Subject: Re: Seasons Greetings
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56967 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 12/26/2015
Subject: Re: Guppy Fry
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56968 From: Noura T. Date: 12/27/2015
Subject: Re: Guppy Fry
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56969 From: sevenspringss Date: 12/31/2015
Subject: Re: Greetings & Salutations
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56970 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 12/31/2015
Subject: Re: Greetings & Salutations
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56971 From: Angela Cancilla Herschel Date: 1/25/2016
Subject: I have been hacked - DO NOT subject; re:
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56972 From: Harry Perry Date: 1/25/2016
Subject: Re: I have been hacked - DO NOT subject; re:
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56973 From: Angela Cancilla Herschel Date: 1/27/2016
Subject: Genetics rewrites story of fish species trapped in single hole
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56974 From: Andy Mills Date: 1/30/2016
Subject: Strange pleco behaviour
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56975 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/30/2016
Subject: Re: Strange pleco behaviour
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56976 From: andy_peltier Date: 2/2/2016
Subject: Cloudy slime
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56977 From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c Date: 2/2/2016
Subject: Re: Strange pleco behaviour
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56978 From: Angela Cancilla Herschel Date: 2/4/2016
Subject: Koi surgery
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56979 From: Angela Cancilla Herschel Date: 2/22/2016
Subject: *Man Places Upside Down Fish Tank In His Koi Pond so they could have
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56980 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 2/22/2016
Subject: Re: *Man Places Upside Down Fish Tank In His Koi Pond so they could
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56981 From: Angela Cancilla Herschel Date: 3/18/2016
Subject: My Beta has "ick" ?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56982 From: Amber Larr Date: 3/18/2016
Subject: Re: My Beta has "ick" ?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56983 From: Angela Cancilla Herschel Date: 3/19/2016
Subject: Betta has Fungus - My Beta has "ick" ?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56984 From: Amber Larr Date: 3/19/2016
Subject: Re: Betta has Fungus - My Beta has "ick" ?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56985 From: Angela Cancilla Herschel Date: 3/19/2016
Subject: Betta has Fungus - My Beta has "ick" ?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56986 From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: 4/2/2016
Subject: Anyone here have experinece with raising killifish eggs???
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56987 From: sevenspringss Date: 4/2/2016
Subject: Re: Anyone here have experinece with raising killifish eggs???
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56988 From: hughjazzoreface Date: 5/20/2016
Subject: Air problem
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56989 From: deenerzz Date: 5/20/2016
Subject: Re: Air problem
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56990 From: sevenspringss Date: 5/21/2016
Subject: Re: Air problem
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56991 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 5/21/2016
Subject: Re: Air problem
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56992 From: Andy Mills Date: 6/11/2016
Subject: Hydra filters
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56993 From: ptimlin Date: 6/12/2016
Subject: Re: Hydra filters
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56994 From: Angela Cancilla Herschel Date: 6/12/2016
Subject: Fish can recognize human faces.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56995 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 6/12/2016
Subject: Re: Fish can recognize human faces.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56996 From: deenerzz Date: 6/12/2016
Subject: Re: Fish can recognize human faces.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56997 From: Noura T. Date: 6/14/2016
Subject: Re: Fish can recognize human faces.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56998 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 6/14/2016
Subject: Re: Fish can recognize human faces.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56999 From: sevenspringss Date: 6/14/2016
Subject: Re: Fish can recognize human faces.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57000 From: Angela Cancilla Herschel Date: 6/15/2016
Subject: Re: Fish can recognize human faces.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57001 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 6/16/2016
Subject: Re: Fish can recognize human faces.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57002 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 6/16/2016
Subject: Re: Fish can recognize human faces.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57003 From: Noura T. Date: 6/18/2016
Subject: Re: Fish can recognize human faces.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57004 From: Angela Cancilla Herschel Date: 6/19/2016
Subject: Re: Fish can recognize human faces.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57005 From: sevenspringss Date: 6/20/2016
Subject: Re: Fish can recognize human faces.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57006 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 6/20/2016
Subject: Re: Fish can recognize human faces.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57007 From: jett07002 Date: 6/21/2016
Subject: Re: Fish can recognize human faces.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57008 From: Charles Harrison Date: 6/21/2016
Subject: Re: Fish can recognize human faces.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57009 From: sevenspringss Date: 6/21/2016
Subject: Re: Fish can recognize human faces.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57010 From: jett07002 Date: 6/22/2016
Subject: Re: Fish can recognize human faces.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57011 From: sevenspringss Date: 6/22/2016
Subject: Re: Fish can recognize human faces.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57012 From: kbgwp Date: 6/22/2016
Subject: Re: Fish can recognize human faces.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57013 From: Trevor Holyoak Date: 6/22/2016
Subject: Re: Fish can recognize human faces.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57014 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 6/25/2016
Subject: Re: Fish can recognize human faces.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57015 From: sevenspringss Date: 6/25/2016
Subject: Re: Fish can recognize human faces.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57016 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 6/25/2016
Subject: Re: Fish can recognize human faces.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57017 From: jett07002 Date: 6/27/2016
Subject: Re: Fish can recognize human faces.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57018 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 6/28/2016
Subject: Re: Fish can recognize human faces.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57019 From: jett07002 Date: 6/29/2016
Subject: Re: Fish can recognize human faces.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57020 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 6/30/2016
Subject: Re: Fish can recognize human faces.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57021 From: Larry Blanchard Date: 6/30/2016
Subject: Re: Fish can recognize human faces.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57022 From: jett07002 Date: 7/1/2016
Subject: Re: Fish can recognize human faces.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57023 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 7/1/2016
Subject: Re: Fish can recognize human faces.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57024 From: Angela Cancilla Herschel Date: 7/2/2016
Subject: O/T: Hummers (video)
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57025 From: sevenspringss Date: 7/2/2016
Subject: Re: O/T: Hummers (video)
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57026 From: Angela Cancilla Herschel Date: 7/3/2016
Subject: Re: O/T: Hummers (video)
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57027 From: Angela Cancilla Herschel Date: 7/3/2016
Subject: O/T: Hummers (video)
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57028 From: jett07002 Date: 7/4/2016
Subject: Re: O/T: Hummers (video)
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57029 From: sevenspringss Date: 7/5/2016
Subject: Re: Beware -- previous - Scanned image -- DO NOT OPEN
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57030 From: Angela Cancilla Herschel Date: 7/5/2016
Subject: (no subject)
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57031 From: Angela Cancilla Herschel Date: 7/5/2016
Subject: *Intelligence of Fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57032 From: sevenspringss Date: 7/6/2016
Subject: Re: SPAM Think about your condition today and live longer and happie
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57033 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 7/7/2016
Subject: Re: O/T: Hummers (video)
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57034 From: sevenspringss Date: 7/7/2016
Subject: Re: O/T: Hummers (video)
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57035 From: jett07002 Date: 7/10/2016
Subject: Re: O/T: Hummers (video)
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57036 From: sevenspringss Date: 7/10/2016
Subject: Re: O/T: Hummers (video)
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57037 From: Angela Cancilla Herschel Date: 7/11/2016
Subject: Fish moving toward their caregiver
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57038 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 7/12/2016
Subject: Re: O/T: Hummers (video)
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57039 From: jett07002 Date: 7/13/2016
Subject: Re: O/T: Hummers (video)
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57040 From: sevenspringss Date: 7/13/2016
Subject: Re: O/T: Hummers (video)
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57041 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 7/13/2016
Subject: Re: O/T: Hummers (video)
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57042 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 7/13/2016
Subject: Re: O/T: Hummers (video)
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57043 From: hughjazzoreface Date: 7/13/2016
Subject: Growing Goldfish Fast
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57044 From: Harry Perry Date: 7/13/2016
Subject: Robert.....Re: [AquaticLife] Growing Goldfish Fast
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57045 From: jett07002 Date: 7/14/2016
Subject: Re: O/T: Hummers (video)
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57046 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 7/16/2016
Subject: Re: Growing Goldfish Fast
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57047 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 7/16/2016
Subject: Re: Robert.....Re: [AquaticLife] Growing Goldfish Fast
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57048 From: sevenspringss Date: 7/16/2016
Subject: Re: O/T: Hummers (video)
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57049 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 7/16/2016
Subject: Re: O/T: Hummers (video)
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57050 From: Harry Perry Date: 7/16/2016
Subject: Re: Robert.....Re: [AquaticLife] Growing Goldfish Fast
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57051 From: Noura T. Date: 8/8/2016
Subject: Ick in a planted tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57052 From: sevenspringss Date: 8/8/2016
Subject: Re: Ick in a planted tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57053 From: Noura T. Date: 8/8/2016
Subject: Re: Ick in a planted tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57054 From: sevenspringss Date: 8/8/2016
Subject: Re: Ick in a planted tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57055 From: Larry Blanchard Date: 8/8/2016
Subject: Re: Ick in a planted tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57056 From: sevenspringss Date: 8/8/2016
Subject: Re: Ick in a planted tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57057 From: Harry Perry Date: 8/8/2016
Subject: Ick in a planted tank- Try this......
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57058 From: Noura T. Date: 8/9/2016
Subject: Re: Ick in a planted tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57059 From: Noura T. Date: 8/9/2016
Subject: Re: Ick in a planted tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57060 From: ptimlin Date: 8/9/2016
Subject: Re: Ick in a planted tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57061 From: sevenspringss Date: 8/9/2016
Subject: Re: Ick in a planted tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57062 From: sevenspringss Date: 8/9/2016
Subject: Re: Ick in a planted tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57063 From: Larry Blanchard Date: 8/9/2016
Subject: Re: Ick in a planted tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57064 From: Angela Cancilla Herschel Date: 8/13/2016
Subject: Fish breathing oxygen from water explained in animation.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57065 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 8/15/2016
Subject: Re: Fish breathing oxygen from water explained in animation.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57066 From: Jan Kuenzl Date: 9/1/2016
Subject: Oceans: Fascinating and Endangered (Video)
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57067 From: Jackie Date: 9/2/2016
Subject: new canister
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57068 From: Donna Ransome Date: 9/2/2016
Subject: Re: new canister
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57069 From: sevenspringss Date: 9/2/2016
Subject: Re: new canister
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57070 From: Trevor Holyoak Date: 9/2/2016
Subject: Re: new canister
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57071 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 9/2/2016
Subject: Re: new canister
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57072 From: Kevin Boyle Date: 9/2/2016
Subject: Re: new canister
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57073 From: Trevor Holyoak Date: 9/2/2016
Subject: Re: new canister
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57074 From: Larry Blanchard Date: 9/2/2016
Subject: Re: new canister
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57075 From: sevenspringss Date: 9/2/2016
Subject: Re: new canister
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57076 From: pam andress Date: 9/2/2016
Subject: Re: new canister
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57077 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 9/2/2016
Subject: Re: new canister
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57078 From: Kevin Boyle Date: 9/2/2016
Subject: Re: new canister
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57079 From: Kevin Boyle Date: 9/2/2016
Subject: Re: new canister
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57080 From: Trevor Holyoak Date: 9/2/2016
Subject: Re: new canister
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57081 From: Donna Ransome Date: 9/3/2016
Subject: Re: new canister
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57082 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 9/3/2016
Subject: Re: new canister
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57083 From: sevenspringss Date: 9/3/2016
Subject: Re: new canister
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57084 From: Trevor Holyoak Date: 9/3/2016
Subject: Re: new canister
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57085 From: Trevor Holyoak Date: 9/3/2016
Subject: Re: new canister
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57086 From: ptimlin Date: 9/3/2016
Subject: Re: new canister
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57087 From: Jan Kuenzl Date: 9/3/2016
Subject: Oceans: Fascinating and Endangered (Video)
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57088 From: sevenspringss Date: 9/3/2016
Subject: Re: new canister
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57089 From: Cheryl Kautz Date: 9/3/2016
Subject: Re: new canister
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57090 From: sevenspringss Date: 9/3/2016
Subject: Re: new canister
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57091 From: Kevin Boyle Date: 9/3/2016
Subject: Re: new canister
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57092 From: Kevin Boyle Date: 9/3/2016
Subject: Re: new canister
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57093 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 9/3/2016
Subject: Re: new canister
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57094 From: sevenspringss Date: 9/3/2016
Subject: Re: new canister
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57095 From: ptimlin Date: 9/4/2016
Subject: PLEASE TRIM YOUR REPLIES !!!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57096 From: nonstopmom888 Date: 9/4/2016
Subject: Clown pleco, how much food?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57097 From: sevenspringss Date: 9/4/2016
Subject: Re: Clown pleco, how much food?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57098 From: ptimlin Date: 9/5/2016
Subject: Re: Clown pleco, how much food?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57099 From: ptimlin Date: 9/6/2016
Subject: Re: Clown pleco, how much food?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57100 From: sevenspringss Date: 9/6/2016
Subject: Re: Clown pleco, how much food?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57101 From: Jackie Date: 9/8/2016
Subject: new canister
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57102 From: angel2whitewings Date: 10/15/2016
Subject: Re: Clown pleco, how much food?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57103 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 10/16/2016
Subject: Patio Pond
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57104 From: sevenspringss Date: 10/17/2016
Subject: Re: Patio Pond
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57105 From: Angela Cancilla Herschel Date: 10/18/2016
Subject: ‘Monster’ 14-pound lobster caught near Bermuda after Hurricane
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57106 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 10/19/2016
Subject: Re: Patio Pond
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57107 From: Larry Blanchard Date: 10/20/2016
Subject: Re: Patio Pond
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57108 From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: 10/25/2016
Subject: AquaticLife Yahoo! Fish Group ~ Founded: Nov 4, 2002, Friday, 04 Nov
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57109 From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: 11/3/2016
Subject: AquaticLife Yahoo! Fish Group ~ Founded: Nov 4, 2002, Friday, 04 Nov
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57110 From: Andy Mills Date: 11/18/2016
Subject: Has anyone got any experience with blue phantom plecos
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57111 From: sevenspringss Date: 11/18/2016
Subject: Re: Has anyone got any experience with blue phantom plecos
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57112 From: Harry Perry Date: 11/18/2016
Subject: Blue Phantom Pleco
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57113 From: Harry Perry Date: 11/18/2016
Subject: again.....Re: [AquaticLife] Blue Phantom Pleco
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57114 From: Andy Mills Date: 11/20/2016
Subject: Re: Blue Phantom Pleco
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57115 From: Harry Perry Date: 11/20/2016
Subject: Andy.....Re: [AquaticLife] Blue Phantom Pleco
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57116 From: Angela Cancilla Herschel Date: 11/27/2016
Subject: Clear-water Barley Straw Bales ?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57117 From: sevenspringss Date: 11/27/2016
Subject: Re: Clear-water Barley Straw Bales ?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57118 From: Angela Cancilla Herschel Date: 11/29/2016
Subject: Re: Clear-water Barley Straw Bales ?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57119 From: sevenspringss Date: 11/29/2016
Subject: Re: Clear-water Barley Straw Bales ?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57120 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 12/7/2016
Subject: Re: Clear-water Barley Straw Bales ?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57121 From: sevenspringss Date: 12/8/2016
Subject: Re: Clear-water Barley Straw Bales ?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57122 From: Andy Mills Date: 12/8/2016
Subject: Striped talking catfish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57123 From: sevenspringss Date: 12/8/2016
Subject: Re: Striped talking catfish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57124 From: Angela Cancilla Herschel Date: 12/10/2016
Subject: Re: Clear-water Barley Straw Bales ?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57125 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 12/12/2016
Subject: Re: Clear-water Barley Straw Bales ?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57126 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 12/15/2016
Subject: Re: Striped talking catfish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57127 From: sevenspringss Date: 12/15/2016
Subject: Re: Striped talking catfish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57128 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 12/17/2016
Subject: Re: Striped talking catfish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57129 From: sevenspringss Date: 12/17/2016
Subject: Re: Striped talking catfish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57130 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 12/18/2016
Subject: Tame Stingray
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57131 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 12/21/2016
Subject: Re: Striped talking catfish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57132 From: sevenspringss Date: 12/21/2016
Subject: Re: Striped talking catfish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57133 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 12/21/2016
Subject: Re: Striped talking catfish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57134 From: Harry Perry Date: 12/24/2016
Subject: A message
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57135 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 12/24/2016
Subject: Re: Fish Teeth [Striped talking catfish]
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57136 From: sevenspringss Date: 12/24/2016
Subject: Re: Fish Teeth [Striped talking catfish]
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57137 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 12/24/2016
Subject: Re: A message
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57138 From: sevenspringss Date: 12/24/2016
Subject: Re: A message
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57139 From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: 1/27/2017
Subject: Money!!!, Friday, 27 January 2017
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57140 From: joe t Date: 2/4/2017
Subject: Re: Money!!!, Friday, 27 January 2017
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57141 From: sevenspringss Date: 2/4/2017
Subject: Re: Money!!!, Friday, 27 January 2017
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57142 From: ptimlin Date: 2/6/2017
Subject: Chicago's Shedd Aquarium announced death of lungfish "Grandad"
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57143 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 2/6/2017
Subject: Re: Chicago's Shedd Aquarium announced death of lungfish "Grandad"
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57144 From: piaba Date: 2/7/2017
Subject: Fw: Chicago's Shedd Aquarium announced death of lungfish "Grandad"
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57145 From: Angela Cancilla Herschel Date: 2/19/2017
Subject: Radioactive Plume From Fukushima Makes Landfall on West Coast
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57146 From: Angela Cancilla Herschel Date: 3/2/2017
Subject: We Know Why Sharks Don't Eat Their Roommates
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57147 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 3/2/2017
Subject: Re: We Know Why Sharks Don't Eat Their Roommates
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57148 From: piaba Date: 3/3/2017
Subject: Chicago's Shedd Aquarium announced death of lungfish "Grandad"
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57149 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 3/3/2017
Subject: A Pond With A View
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57150 From: Harry Perry Date: 3/3/2017
Subject: Re: A Pond With A View
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57151 From: Andy Mills Date: 3/6/2017
Subject: Freshwater turbo snail, blue turbo snail, Celetaia persculpta
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57152 From: sevenspringss Date: 3/6/2017
Subject: Re: Freshwater turbo snail, blue turbo snail, Celetaia persculpta
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57153 From: Angela Cancilla Herschel Date: 3/6/2017
Subject: Great Barrier Reef dead at 25 million years old.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57154 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 3/7/2017
Subject: Re: A Pond With A View
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57155 From: Harry Perry Date: 3/7/2017
Subject: John....Re: [AquaticLife] A Pond With A View
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57156 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 3/8/2017
Subject: Re: John....Re: [AquaticLife] A Pond With A View
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57157 From: Jan Künzl Date: 3/14/2017
Subject: Illustrated Infographic about Marine Habitats
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57158 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 3/15/2017
Subject: Re: Illustrated Infographic about Marine Habitats
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57159 From: Andy Mills Date: 4/2/2017
Subject: Has anyone ever kept striped piano snails
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57160 From: sevenspringss Date: 4/2/2017
Subject: Re: Has anyone ever kept striped piano snails
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57161 From: Angela Cancilla Herschel Date: 5/31/2017
Subject: Exploring deep sea near Australia, scientists find 'faceless' fish.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57162 From: sevenspringss Date: 5/31/2017
Subject: Re: Exploring deep sea near Australia, scientists find 'faceles...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57163 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 5/31/2017
Subject: Re: Exploring deep sea near Australia, scientists find 'faceles...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57164 From: sevenspringss Date: 5/31/2017
Subject: Re: Exploring deep sea near Australia, scientists find 'faceles...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57165 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 5/31/2017
Subject: Re: Exploring deep sea near Australia, scientists find 'faceles...
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57166 From: Angela Cancilla Herschel Date: 6/25/2017
Subject: Aquatic Affection: How a Scuba Diver Found a Good Friend Under the S
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57167 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 6/28/2017
Subject: Re: Aquatic Affection: How a Scuba Diver Found a Good Friend Under t
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57168 From: Jill Beck Date: 7/30/2017
Subject: Need to rehome 8 African dwarf frogs
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57169 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 7/31/2017
Subject: Re: Need to rehome 8 African dwarf frogs
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57170 From: Angela Cancilla Herschel Date: 8/15/2017
Subject: Goldfish playing basketball
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57171 From: Angela Cancilla Herschel Date: 8/15/2017
Subject: Betta fish jumping through hoops
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57172 From: Angela Cancilla Herschel Date: 8/15/2017
Subject: Fish 10 trained tricks
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57173 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 8/17/2017
Subject: Re: Fish 10 trained tricks
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57174 From: Noura T. Date: 8/21/2017
Subject: Brackish Water for Mollies
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57175 From: sevenspringss Date: 8/21/2017
Subject: Re: Brackish Water for Mollies
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57176 From: Noura T. Date: 8/21/2017
Subject: Re: Brackish Water for Mollies
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57177 From: sevenspringss Date: 8/21/2017
Subject: Re: Brackish Water for Mollies
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57178 From: Harry Perry Date: 8/21/2017
Subject: Noura.....Re: [AquaticLife] Brackish Water for Mollies
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57179 From: Noura T. Date: 8/21/2017
Subject: Re: Brackish Water for Mollies
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57180 From: Noura T. Date: 8/21/2017
Subject: Re: Noura.....Re: [AquaticLife] Brackish Water for Mollies
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57181 From: ptimlin Date: 8/22/2017
Subject: Re: Brackish Water for Mollies
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57182 From: sevenspringss Date: 8/22/2017
Subject: Re: Brackish Water for Mollies
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57183 From: bhosking@shaw.ca Date: 8/22/2017
Subject: Re: Noura.....Re: [AquaticLife] Brackish Water for Mollies
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57184 From: Noura T. Date: 8/22/2017
Subject: Re: Brackish Water for Mollies
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57185 From: amphibian_ca Date: 8/22/2017
Subject: Re: Brackish Water for Mollies
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57186 From: sevenspringss Date: 8/22/2017
Subject: Re: Brackish Water for Mollies
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57187 From: Harry Perry Date: 8/22/2017
Subject: This is increditable !!!!!!!! Salt for mollies
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57188 From: ptimlin Date: 8/23/2017
Subject: Re: Brackish Water for Mollies
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57189 From: sevenspringss Date: 8/23/2017
Subject: Re: Brackish Water for Mollies
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57190 From: amphibian_ca Date: 8/23/2017
Subject: Re: Brackish Water for Mollies
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57191 From: ptimlin Date: 8/23/2017
Subject: Re: Brackish Water for Mollies
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57192 From: ptimlin Date: 8/23/2017
Subject: Re: Brackish Water for Mollies
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57193 From: sevenspringss Date: 8/23/2017
Subject: Re: Brackish Water for Mollies
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57194 From: Cheryl Kautz Date: 8/23/2017
Subject: Re: Brackish Water for Mollies
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57195 From: Harry Perry Date: 8/23/2017
Subject: Patrick.....Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Brackish Water for Mollies
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57196 From: kbgwp Date: 8/24/2017
Subject: Re: Brackish Water for Mollies
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57197 From: amphibian_ca Date: 8/24/2017
Subject: Re: Brackish Water for Mollies
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57198 From: ptimlin Date: 8/24/2017
Subject: Re: Patrick.....Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Brackish Water for Mollies
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57199 From: Noura T. Date: 8/24/2017
Subject: Re: Brackish Water for Mollies
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57200 From: sevenspringss Date: 8/24/2017
Subject: Re: Brackish Water for Mollies
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57201 From: sevenspringss Date: 8/24/2017
Subject: Re: Noura.....Re: [AquaticLife] Brackish Water for Mollies
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57202 From: sevenspringss Date: 8/24/2017
Subject: Re: Brackish Water for Mollies
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57203 From: sevenspringss Date: 8/24/2017
Subject: Re: Noura.....Re: [AquaticLife] Brackish Water for Mollies
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57204 From: sevenspringss Date: 8/24/2017
Subject: Re: Brackish Water for Mollies
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57205 From: sevenspringss Date: 8/24/2017
Subject: Re: Brackish Water for Mollies
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57206 From: Noura T. Date: 8/25/2017
Subject: Re: Noura.....Re: [AquaticLife] Brackish Water for Mollies
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57207 From: sevenspringss Date: 8/25/2017
Subject: Re: Noura.....Re: [AquaticLife] Brackish Water for Mollies
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57208 From: Noura T. Date: 8/25/2017
Subject: Re: Noura.....Re: [AquaticLife] Brackish Water for Mollies
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57209 From: Harry Perry Date: 8/25/2017
Subject: Noura...again.....Re: [AquaticLife] Brackish Water for Mollies
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57210 From: sevenspringss Date: 8/25/2017
Subject: Re: Noura.....Re: [AquaticLife] Brackish Water for Mollies
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57211 From: Cheryl Kautz Date: 8/25/2017
Subject: Re: Noura...again.....Re: [AquaticLife] Brackish Water for Mollies
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57212 From: sevenspringss Date: 8/25/2017
Subject: Re: Noura...again.....Re: [AquaticLife] Brackish Water for Mollies
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57213 From: Noura T. Date: 8/25/2017
Subject: Re: Noura...again.....Re: [AquaticLife] Brackish Water for Mollies
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57214 From: Noura T. Date: 8/25/2017
Subject: Re: Noura...again.....Re: [AquaticLife] Brackish Water for Mollies
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57215 From: Harry Perry Date: 8/25/2017
Subject: Noura go here.....Re: [AquaticLife] Brackish Water for Mollies
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57216 From: sevenspringss Date: 8/25/2017
Subject: Re: Noura...again.....Re: [AquaticLife] Brackish Water for Mollies
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57217 From: amphibian_ca Date: 8/25/2017
Subject: Re: Brackish Water for Mollies
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57218 From: amphibian_ca Date: 8/25/2017
Subject: Re: Brackish Water for Mollies
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57219 From: amphibian_ca Date: 8/25/2017
Subject: Re: Noura.....Re: [AquaticLife] Brackish Water for Mollies
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57220 From: Angela Cancilla Herschel Date: 11/21/2017
Subject: Female Betta jumps through hoops
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57221 From: LarryB Date: 11/21/2017
Subject: Re: Female Betta jumps through hoops
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57222 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 11/21/2017
Subject: Re: Female Betta jumps through hoops
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57223 From: sevenspringss Date: 11/22/2017
Subject: Re: Female Betta jumps through hoops
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57224 From: LarryB Date: 11/22/2017
Subject: Re: Female Betta jumps through hoops
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57225 From: sevenspringss Date: 11/22/2017
Subject: Re: Female Betta jumps through hoops
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57226 From: LarryB Date: 11/23/2017
Subject: Re: Female Betta jumps through hoops
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57227 From: sevenspringss Date: 11/24/2017
Subject: Re: Female Betta jumps through hoops
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57228 From: LarryB Date: 11/24/2017
Subject: Re: Female Betta jumps through hoops
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57229 From: Harry Perry Date: 11/24/2017
Subject: Water issues....Re: [AquaticLife] Female Betta jumps through hoops
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57230 From: Harry Perry Date: 11/24/2017
Subject: Larry. Water issues.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57231 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 11/24/2017
Subject: Re: Water issues....Re: [AquaticLife] Female Betta jumps through hoo
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57232 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 11/27/2017
Subject: Re: Female Betta jumps through hoops
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57233 From: Harry Perry Date: 11/27/2017
Subject: Old tank syndrome.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57234 From: LarryB Date: 11/27/2017
Subject: Re: Female Betta jumps through hoops
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57235 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 11/28/2017
Subject: Re: Old tank syndrome.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57236 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 11/28/2017
Subject: Re: Female Betta jumps through hoops
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57237 From: Harry Perry Date: 11/28/2017
Subject: John....Re: [AquaticLife] Old tank syndrome.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57238 From: Harry Perry Date: 12/8/2017
Subject: Medicating Bettas......
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57239 From: sevenspringss Date: 12/8/2017
Subject: Re: Medicating Bettas......
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57240 From: Harry Perry Date: 12/8/2017
Subject: Ray.....Re: [AquaticLife] Medicating Bettas......
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57241 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 12/9/2017
Subject: Re: Ray.....Re: [AquaticLife] Medicating Bettas......
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57242 From: Harry Perry Date: 12/9/2017
Subject: SIMMONDS JOHN [AquaticLife] Medicating Bettas......
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57243 From: sevenspringss Date: 12/9/2017
Subject: Re: Ray.....Re: [AquaticLife] Medicating Bettas......
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57244 From: Harry Perry Date: 12/11/2017
Subject: Ray again..... [AquaticLife] Medicating Bettas......
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57245 From: sevenspringss Date: 12/11/2017
Subject: Re: Medicating Bettas......
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57246 From: sevenspringss Date: 12/25/2017
Subject: Re: Season's Greetings
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57247 From: Harry Perry Date: 12/25/2017
Subject: Ray....Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Season's Greetings
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57248 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 12/25/2017
Subject: Re: Ray....Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Season's Greetings
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57249 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/1/2018
Subject: Re: New Year's Greetings
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57250 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 1/1/2018
Subject: Re: New Year's Greetings
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57251 From: Andy Mills Date: 1/11/2018
Subject: Tortoiseshell pleco?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57252 From: Raymond Wetzel Date: 1/11/2018
Subject: Re: Tortoiseshell pleco?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57253 From: adonaikam Date: 3/20/2018
Subject: Hello all
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57254 From: adonaikam Date: 3/21/2018
Subject: Looking for advice / help with ideas on Outside pond
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57255 From: sevenspringss Date: 3/22/2018
Subject: Re: Looking for advice / help with ideas on Outside pond
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57256 From: jett07002 Date: 3/22/2018
Subject: Discus
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57257 From: sevenspringss Date: 3/22/2018
Subject: Re: Discus
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57258 From: adonaikam Date: 3/22/2018
Subject: Re: Discus
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57259 From: adonaikam Date: 3/22/2018
Subject: Re: Looking for advice / help with ideas on Outside pond
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57260 From: Raymond Wetzel Date: 3/22/2018
Subject: Re: Looking for advice / help with ideas on Outside pond
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57261 From: Harry Perry Date: 5/18/2018
Subject: Bettas
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57262 From: Raymond Wetzel Date: 5/19/2018
Subject: Re: Bettas
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57263 From: Harry Perry Date: 5/19/2018
Subject: Ray....Re: [AquaticLife] Bettas
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57264 From: Raymond Wetzel Date: 5/20/2018
Subject: Re: Ray....Re: [AquaticLife] Bettas
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57265 From: Harry Perry Date: 5/20/2018
Subject: Ray..again [AquaticLife] Bettas
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57266 From: Raymond Wetzel Date: 5/20/2018
Subject: Re: Ray..again [AquaticLife] Bettas
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57267 From: Harry Perry Date: 5/20/2018
Subject: Re: Ray..again [AquaticLife] Bettas
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57268 From: Harry Perry Date: 5/20/2018
Subject: Ray....Re: [AquaticLife] Bettas
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57269 From: Harry Perry Date: 5/28/2018
Subject: Old tank syndrome.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57270 From: Raymond Wetzel Date: 5/28/2018
Subject: Re: Old tank syndrome.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57271 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 6/9/2018
Subject: Re: Old tank syndrome.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57272 From: Harry Perry Date: 10/17/2019
Subject: YAHOO GROUP CHANGES
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57273 From: Raymond Wetzel Date: 10/17/2019
Subject: Re: YAHOO GROUP CHANGES
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57274 From: Harry Perry Date: 10/19/2019
Subject: Yahoo Group Changes.......Some Clarity
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57275 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 10/28/2019
Subject: Re: YAHOO GROUP CHANGES
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57276 From: Raymond Wetzel Date: 10/29/2019
Subject: Re: YAHOO GROUP CHANGES
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57277 From: Raymond Wetzel Date: 10/30/2019
Subject: Re: YAHOO GROUP CHANGES
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57278 From: Raymond Wetzel Date: 10/30/2019
Subject: Re: YAHOO GROUP CHANGES
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57279 From: Harry Perry Date: 10/30/2019
Subject: Another perspective.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57280 From: Raymond Wetzel Date: 10/30/2019
Subject: Re: Another perspective.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57281 From: Harry Perry Date: 11/2/2019
Subject: Fw: [DMSO] More on Yahoo Changes
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57282 From: Harry Perry Date: 11/3/2019
Subject: Saving content from group website......
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57283 From: Raymond Wetzel Date: 11/3/2019
Subject: Re: Saving content from group website......
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57284 From: Raymond Wetzel Date: 11/3/2019
Subject: Re: Saving content from group website......
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57285 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 11/3/2019
Subject: Re: Saving content from group website......
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57286 From: Raymond Wetzel Date: 11/3/2019
Subject: Re: Saving content from group website......
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57287 From: Charles Harrison Date: 11/3/2019
Subject: Re: Saving content from group website......
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57288 From: Michael Li Date: 11/4/2019
Subject: Re: Saving content from group website......
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57289 From: Raymond Wetzel Date: 11/4/2019
Subject: Re: Saving content from group website......
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57290 From: Raymond Wetzel Date: 11/4/2019
Subject: Re: Saving content from group website......
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57291 From: Michael Li Date: 11/4/2019
Subject: Re: Saving content from group website......
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57292 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 11/4/2019
Subject: Re: Saving content from group website......
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57293 From: Raymond Wetzel Date: 11/4/2019
Subject: Re: Saving content from group website......
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57294 From: Raymond Wetzel Date: 11/4/2019
Subject: Re: Saving content from group website......
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57295 From: Michael Li Date: 11/4/2019
Subject: Re: Saving content from group website......
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57296 From: Raymond Wetzel Date: 11/4/2019
Subject: Re: Saving content from group website......
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57297 From: Michael Li Date: 11/4/2019
Subject: Re: Saving content from group website......
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57298 From: harryfisherman Date: 11/13/2019
Subject: testing e-mail
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57299 From: harryfisherman Date: 11/13/2019
Subject: Testing
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57300 From: Harry Perry Date: 11/13/2019
Subject: Re: Saving Aquatic Life
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57301 From: Raymond Wetzel Date: 11/13/2019
Subject: Re: Testing
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57302 From: Raymond Wetzel Date: 11/13/2019
Subject: Re: Saving Aquatic Life
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57303 From: Raymond Wetzel Date: 11/13/2019
Subject: Re: Saving Aquatic Life
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57304 From: Trevor Holyoak Date: 11/13/2019
Subject: Re: Testing
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57305 From: Trevor Holyoak Date: 11/13/2019
Subject: Re: Testing
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57306 From: Harry Perry Date: 11/13/2019
Subject: Trevor.....Testing message function
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57307 From: Dale Smith Date: 11/13/2019
Subject: Re: Trevor.....Testing message function and an introduction
Group: AquaticLife Message: 57308 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 11/13/2019
Subject: Re: Trevor.....Testing message function and an introduction



Group: AquaticLife Message: 55650 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/1/2014
Subject: Re: Holiday Greetings
AOL Email
 
 
 
TO  ALL OF  OUR SO  VERY  VALUED  MEMBERS
 
 
 
Have  A  Very
 
 
HAPPY, HEALTHY & PROSPEROUS
 
 
NEW  YEAR !!!
 
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55651 From: steckermonkey50 Date: 1/15/2014
Subject: Cloudy glass

I bought a used 5 foot 100 gallon aquarium a couple years back with the intention of setting it up like my old 125 gallon set up (wet-dry filter African cichlid aquarium) Well I bought a large wet-dry filter and overflow box (still need to get a water pump) but I noticed the glass is kind of cloudy...I did a google search on how to clear up the cloudy aquarium glass and found a number of solutions (none of them worked) The closest I came was automotive rubbing compound which worked a little on one of the glass lids.. Im pretty sure that it was previously a salt water tank. vinegar and other solutions such as CLR do not work. Any solutions? I really got a deal on the aquarium at $100 and would like to get back into the hobby!

Group: AquaticLife Message: 55652 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 1/15/2014
Subject: Re: Cloudy glass
Hi,

   Automotive compounds such as T-cut etc are solvent based so if you've been using it on the inside of your tank-even just the glass lids you will risk having left some residue that will be poisonous to aquatic animals even if it appears to have been cleaned off thoroughly. I would suggest using white vinegar & warm water with a soft lint-free cloth to remove any residue & then rinse with salted water finally rinsing with cold water. As to removing the cloudiness from the glass, that will be thousands of minute scratches-I have the same on my tank slider lids where I scrape the calcium deposits off. As it is on the  side of your tank it is obviously a problem visually but I think you will be looking at some very expensive professional treatments that would negate the bargain price you got the tank for. Is the tank badly clouded on both sides? Hopefully the good folks on here might be able to give you some more positive help than I!

  John<o)))<


On 15 January 2014 05:16, <steckermonkey50@...> wrote:
 

I bought a used 5 foot 100 gallon aquarium a couple years back with the intention of setting it up like my old 125 gallon set up (wet-dry filter African cichlid aquarium) Well I bought a large wet-dry filter and overflow box (still need to get a water pump) but I noticed the glass is kind of cloudy...I did a google search on how to clear up the cloudy aquarium glass and found a number of solutions (none of them worked) The closest I came was automotive rubbing compound which worked a little on one of the glass lids.. Im pretty sure that it was previously a salt water tank. vinegar and other solutions such as CLR do not work. Any solutions? I really got a deal on the aquarium at $100 and would like to get back into the hobby!


Group: AquaticLife Message: 55653 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/15/2014
Subject: Re: Cloudy glass
AOL Email
Hello Stecker (name?),
 
Have you determined what the exact cause of this cloudiness is caused by?  Is this the result of thousands of minute scratches, as was suggested, or does it appear as though it's salts (calcium, sodium and magnesium compounds, etc.) residue from the previous owner's salt water being allowed to evaporate unattended?  While you found that CLR does "not work," how have you used it?  This product is quite useful in removing hardened salt deposits even when other methods are ineffective.  If you've merely used this product as a wipe, you may need to turn the tank on it's side so that the glass is flat on the table or stand and pour a quantity of CLR over the glass, allowing it to act on the deposits over time as it puddles on top of the glass. 
 
As for thoroughly removing the auto rubbing compound, try 91% rubbing alcohol.  Don't use this compound inside of the tank though.  You may consider using unsoaped steel wool in a fine grade such as #000 or even super fine #0000 which is normally used to clean glass without the use of liquid cleaners, but I'd recommend using it at least with water to prevent any scratching even though it may not be considered necessary to do.  You might try this steel wool along with CLR to help lift the deposits.  Of course, soaped Brillo may work in the same way, but it would need a thorough rinsing afterwards, although #0000 steel wool is what's regularly used for such applications..
 
Ray
 
 
In a message dated 1/15/2014 8:41:32 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, simmonds.john@... writes:
 

Hi,

   Automotive compounds such as T-cut etc are solvent based so if you've been using it on the inside of your tank-even just the glass lids you will risk having left some residue that will be poisonous to aquatic animals even if it appears to have been cleaned off thoroughly. I would suggest using white vinegar & warm water with a soft lint-free cloth to remove any residue & then rinse with salted water finally rinsing with cold water. As to removing the cloudiness from the glass, that will be thousands of minute scratches-I have the same on my tank slider lids where I scrape the calcium deposits off. As it is on the  side of your tank it is obviously a problem visually but I think you will be looking at some very expensive professional treatments that would negate the bargain price you got the tank for. Is the tank badly clouded on both sides? Hopefully the good folks on here might be able to give you some more positive help than I!

  John<o)))<


On 15 January 2014 05:16, <steckermonkey50@...> wrote:
 

I bought a used 5 foot 100 gallon aquarium a couple years back with the intention of setting it up like my old 125 gallon set up (wet-dry filter African cichlid aquarium) Well I bought a large wet-dry filter and overflow box (still need to get a water pump) but I noticed the glass is kind of cloudy...I did a google search on how to clear up the cloudy aquarium glass and found a number of solutions (none of them worked) The closest I came was automotive rubbing compound which worked a little on one of the glass lids.. Im pretty sure that it was previously a salt water tank. vinegar and other solutions such as CLR do not work. Any solutions? I really got a deal on the aquarium at $100 and would like to get back into the hobby!


Group: AquaticLife Message: 55654 From: steckermonkey50 Date: 1/15/2014
Subject: Re: Cloudy glass

This weekend i will try it as you said in regards to putting the tank on its side and letting it soak for a bit. The turtle wax rubbing compound I tried did nothing to remove the cloudiness...looks just like it did before. It didn't scratch the glass or anything, and its water based...but I agree with you that the tank will need a heavy duty cleaning before any fish can be put in it! The time I tried the CLR i had just wiped it on and rinsed it off right away. If it still don't clean it off ill try the #0000 steel wool.

The steckermonkey name is from back when I operated CNC lathes at Stecker Machine Co. I was one of the "monkeys that push the buttons"...lol

Group: AquaticLife Message: 55655 From: Harry Perry Date: 1/15/2014
Subject: Re: Cloudy glass
Before the steel wool, I would try lying it on it's side and soaking with plain white vinegar for at least 24 hours. No scratches and no harmful chemicals.

Harry
--------------------------------------------
On Wed, 1/15/14, steckermonkey50@... <steckermonkey50@...> wrote:

Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Cloudy glass
To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, January 15, 2014, 10:20 PM


 









This weekend i will try it as you said in
regards to putting the tank on its side and letting it soak
for a bit. The turtle wax rubbing compound I tried did
nothing to remove the cloudiness...looks just like it did
before. It didn't scratch the glass or anything, and its
water based...but I agree with you that the tank will need a
heavy duty cleaning before any fish can be put in it! The
time I tried the CLR i had just wiped it on and rinsed it
off right away. If it still don't clean it off ill try
the #0000 steel wool.The steckermonkey name is from
back when I operated CNC lathes at Stecker Machine Co. I was
one of the "monkeys that push the
buttons"...lol
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55656 From: ptimlin Date: 1/16/2014
Subject: Re: Cloudy glass
By any chance have you tried filling the tank with water to see how it looks? A lot of older tanks develop a haze that isn't noticeable once filled with water. You may find that this new (to you) tank looks acceptable to your eyes once filled.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55657 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 1/16/2014
Subject: Re: Cloudy glass
Just to add to those last couple of posts-if you haven't already filled the tank then it may be a good idea to do it outdoors if that is possible & leave it for a few hours. The reason being if it has any leaks then better to find them outside than in!

  John<o)))<


On 16 January 2014 14:24, <ptimlin@...> wrote:
 

By any chance have you tried filling the tank with water to see how it looks? A lot of older tanks develop a haze that isn't noticeable once filled with water. You may find that this new (to you) tank looks acceptable to your eyes once filled.


Group: AquaticLife Message: 55658 From: steckermonkey50 Date: 1/20/2014
Subject: Cloudy glass

No luck with the clear vinegar...it still has the cloudiness in it. I filled it up a couple weeks ago and left it for a week and there's no leaks in it and then drained it. I figure once I get a water pump for the wet-dry filter and a couple of overflow tubes ill set it up again and until I can afford a new 125 or similar size it'll have to do. I plan on selling it then for a reptile tank or something. Any suggestions for a good quality water pump? GPH?

Years back I used a little giant submersible on my last 125 that I got from a local hardware store but they no longer carry water pumps and I forgot how much GPH it put out.

Group: AquaticLife Message: 55659 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/20/2014
Subject: Re: Cloudy glass
AOL Email
Steck,
 
Sorry to hear that the clear vinegar did nothing; you might want to try the CLR now to see if that might improve things.  If not, it might indicate that the cloudiness is not being caused by hardened mineral deposits, but perhaps by some mild etching in the glass or erosion of the glass' inner surfaces by the action of sharp-edged sand in turbulent water.  Usually, as has been pointed out, once the tank is filled with water, the glass becomes more clear -- even if not as good as you'd hope.
 
There are a number of excellent water pumps in the hobby.  Eheim makes some good ones as do Tetra ("Mag Drive") and Eugene Danner ("Danner Supreme") and several others.  To get a better idea what's available for the application you have in mind, I'd suggest your sending for hobby supply catalogs from That Fish Place, Drs Foster & Smith and perhaps Big Al's.  In this way, you'll get a good idea of all the sizes and their flow rates, all in one place -- and whether they're internal or external
 
Ray
.
 
In a message dated 1/20/2014 12:20:06 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, steckermonkey50@... writes:
 

No luck with the clear vinegar...it still has the cloudiness in it. I filled it up a couple weeks ago and left it for a week and there's no leaks in it and then drained it. I figure once I get a water pump for the wet-dry filter and a couple of overflow tubes ill set it up again and until I can afford a new 125 or similar size it'll have to do. I plan on selling it then for a reptile tank or something. Any suggestions for a good quality water pump? GPH?

Years back I used a little giant submersible on my last 125 that I got from a local hardware store but they no longer carry water pumps and I forgot how much GPH it put out.

Group: AquaticLife Message: 55660 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/20/2014
Subject: Re: Cloudy glass
AOL Email
Interesting, the way your user name came about, as a lathe operator at this company you worked for.  As I found I had to address you as this name or part of it, for lack of your actual name -- and then, having to add a question mark to it in hopes it might invite you divulge your real name, I now need to ask you to please sign your messages as most all of us here do.  I notice that even with your most recent messages, which I've just approved for posting, that you're still not signing your messages.  Please do so as I'm sure we'd all appreciate knowing who you are.  Thank you.
 
Ray  (moderator) 
 
 
In a message dated 1/15/2014 10:54:56 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, steckermonkey50@... writes:
 

This weekend i will try it as you said in regards to putting the tank on its side and letting it soak for a bit. The turtle wax rubbing compound I tried did nothing to remove the cloudiness...looks just like it did before. It didn't scratch the glass or anything, and its water based...but I agree with you that the tank will need a heavy duty cleaning before any fish can be put in it! The time I tried the CLR i had just wiped it on and rinsed it off right away. If it still don't clean it off ill try the #0000 steel wool.

The steckermonkey name is from back when I operated CNC lathes at Stecker Machine Co. I was one of the "monkeys that push the buttons"...lol

Group: AquaticLife Message: 55661 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 1/20/2014
Subject: Re: Cloudy glass
Hi Ray,

  I had no idea Mag Drive pumps were manufactured by Tetra-thanks for that little snippet!

  John<o)))<


On 20 January 2014 17:57, <sevenspringss1@...> wrote:
 

Interesting, the way your user name came about, as a lathe operator at this company you worked for.  As I found I had to address you as this name or part of it, for lack of your actual name -- and then, having to add a question mark to it in hopes it might invite you divulge your real name, I now need to ask you to please sign your messages as most all of us here do.  I notice that even with your most recent messages, which I've just approved for posting, that you're still not signing your messages.  Please do so as I'm sure we'd all appreciate knowing who you are.  Thank you.
 
Ray  (moderator) 
 
 
In a message dated 1/15/2014 10:54:56 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, steckermonkey50@... writes:
 

This weekend i will try it as you said in regards to putting the tank on its side and letting it soak for a bit. The turtle wax rubbing compound I tried did nothing to remove the cloudiness...looks just like it did before. It didn't scratch the glass or anything, and its water based...but I agree with you that the tank will need a heavy duty cleaning before any fish can be put in it! The time I tried the CLR i had just wiped it on and rinsed it off right away. If it still don't clean it off ill try the #0000 steel wool.

The steckermonkey name is from back when I operated CNC lathes at Stecker Machine Co. I was one of the "monkeys that push the buttons"...lol


Group: AquaticLife Message: 55662 From: steckermonkey50 Date: 1/20/2014
Subject: Re: Cloudy glass

I didn't have any luck with the white vinegar....glass is still cloudy. I tested the aquarium for leaks a couple months ago and let it full for a week and a half or so before I drained it again...no leaks. It'll have to do for now. I need to get a water pump for the wet-dry filter and a couple of overflow tubes. Any suggestions on a good water pump for an African cichlid tank? I cant remember how much GPH the old pump put out, just that it was a little giant submersible, and the hardware store I bought it from no longer carries water pumps. Eventually I plan on getting another 125 or similar 6 foot tank, but for now the 5 foot 100 gallon will do. Maybe somebody will buy it for a reptile when I get a new tank!

Group: AquaticLife Message: 55663 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/20/2014
Subject: Re: Cloudy glass
AOL Email
Hi John,
 
Tetra Company (Tetra Worke) isn't the only one to manufacture mag-drive pumps, as this is a concept/design in the method to power and operate water pumps -- but I believe they're one of the better known companies for using this design.  As the term "mag-drive" would imply, the water pump is not driven directly by the motor through one shaft, but is turned indirectly with the assistance of magnets coupling the motor shaft with the pump shaft; it's not a trade mark term by any one manufacturer as far as I'm aware.
 
Tetra markets their pumps under their "TetraPond" trade name, but this should not restrict the smaller models from being used in aquarium applications.  Other companies that are known to be "Mag-Drive" pumps are Eugene Danner ("Danner Supreme") -- under various trade name/Series ("Danner Supreme HY-Drive," "Danner Aqua Supreme" and "Danner Supreme Classic"), CalPump, Atlantic Water Gardens (Tidal Wave II) and even some Little Giant pumps.  Cyprio was know to be a manufacturer of mag-drive water pumps, but I seem to recall they went out of business several years ago. 
 
Ray
  
 
In a message dated 1/20/2014 1:29:11 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, simmonds.john@... writes:
 

Hi Ray,

  I had no idea Mag Drive pumps were manufactured by Tetra-thanks for that little snippet!

  John<o)))<


On 20 January 2014 17:57, <sevenspringss1@...> wrote:
 

Interesting, the way your user name came about, as a lathe operator at this company you worked for.  As I found I had to address you as this name or part of it, for lack of your actual name -- and then, having to add a question mark to it in hopes it might invite you divulge your real name, I now need to ask you to please sign your messages as most all of us here do.  I notice that even with your most recent messages, which I've just approved for posting, that you're still not signing your messages.  Please do so as I'm sure we'd all appreciate knowing who you are.  Thank you.
 
Ray  (moderator) 
 
 
In a message dated 1/15/2014 10:54:56 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, steckermonkey50@... writes:
 

This weekend i will try it as you said in regards to putting the tank on its side and letting it soak for a bit. The turtle wax rubbing compound I tried did nothing to remove the cloudiness...looks just like it did before. It didn't scratch the glass or anything, and its water based...but I agree with you that the tank will need a heavy duty cleaning before any fish can be put in it! The time I tried the CLR i had just wiped it on and rinsed it off right away. If it still don't clean it off ill try the #0000 steel wool.

The steckermonkey name is from back when I operated CNC lathes at Stecker Machine Co. I was one of the "monkeys that push the buttons"...lol


Group: AquaticLife Message: 55664 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 1/20/2014
Subject: Re: Cloudy glass
Thanks again Ray- I actually did think Mag Drive was a brand name with only one manufacturer although I was aware of the method of propulsion.

BTW I've just posted 4 shots of my tank to the 'John's Fish' album which were taken at the weekend showing just how much my plants [& fish] have grown since the last pictures. I don't think I'll ever be needing to buy plants again-they are growing like weeds & I'm constantly pruning them back!

  John<o)))<


On 20 January 2014 23:37, <sevenspringss1@...> wrote:
 

Hi John,
 
Tetra Company (Tetra Worke) isn't the only one to manufacture mag-drive pumps, as this is a concept/design in the method to power and operate water pumps -- but I believe they're one of the better known companies for using this design.  As the term "mag-drive" would imply, the water pump is not driven directly by the motor through one shaft, but is turned indirectly with the assistance of magnets coupling the motor shaft with the pump shaft; it's not a trade mark term by any one manufacturer as far as I'm aware.
 
Tetra markets their pumps under their "TetraPond" trade name, but this should not restrict the smaller models from being used in aquarium applications.  Other companies that are known to be "Mag-Drive" pumps are Eugene Danner ("Danner Supreme") -- under various trade name/Series ("Danner Supreme HY-Drive," "Danner Aqua Supreme" and "Danner Supreme Classic"), CalPump, Atlantic Water Gardens (Tidal Wave II) and even some Little Giant pumps.  Cyprio was know to be a manufacturer of mag-drive water pumps, but I seem to recall they went out of business several years ago. 
 
Ray
  
 
In a message dated 1/20/2014 1:29:11 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, simmonds.john@... writes:
 

Hi Ray,

  I had no idea Mag Drive pumps were manufactured by Tetra-thanks for that little snippet!

  John<o)))<


On 20 January 2014 17:57, <sevenspringss1@...> wrote:
 

Interesting, the way your user name came about, as a lathe operator at this company you worked for.  As I found I had to address you as this name or part of it, for lack of your actual name -- and then, having to add a question mark to it in hopes it might invite you divulge your real name, I now need to ask you to please sign your messages as most all of us here do.  I notice that even with your most recent messages, which I've just approved for posting, that you're still not signing your messages.  Please do so as I'm sure we'd all appreciate knowing who you are.  Thank you.
 
Ray  (moderator) 
 
 
In a message dated 1/15/2014 10:54:56 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, steckermonkey50@... writes:
 

This weekend i will try it as you said in regards to putting the tank on its side and letting it soak for a bit. The turtle wax rubbing compound I tried did nothing to remove the cloudiness...looks just like it did before. It didn't scratch the glass or anything, and its water based...but I agree with you that the tank will need a heavy duty cleaning before any fish can be put in it! The time I tried the CLR i had just wiped it on and rinsed it off right away. If it still don't clean it off ill try the #0000 steel wool.

The steckermonkey name is from back when I operated CNC lathes at Stecker Machine Co. I was one of the "monkeys that push the buttons"...lol



Group: AquaticLife Message: 55665 From: daydreamdesign13 Date: 1/23/2014
Subject: feeding veggies
I have 2 small bristlenose plecos in my 30 gal tank.How do I deal with the veggies causing imbalances in my water quality? I do a 1/3 water change every week but I'm still concerned. 

What do you guys do?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55666 From: megablasto2000 Date: 1/23/2014
Subject: fish aggression and water pump question

Hi all,

 

Two questions.

 

A couple months ago I mentioned that one of my common goldies, Stripes, likes to chase my ryukin, King Fat.  I've seen the pattern though. He does it only after they eat.  I feed them their food pellets, they eat peacefully, and after they are done, Stripes starts bumping and chasing King Fat. This goes on intermittently for about 20 or 30 minutes, and then he stops and it doesn't happen again until the next feeding time.  I have isolated Stripes when he is really naughty by using an insertable grid for a few minutes, after about 1/2 hour, I realease him from "prison".  What is this all about?  Someone mentioned before that maybe Stripes is trying to go after King Fat because he is a girl, but this behavior only happens after eating time, so I don't think that is the issue.

 

Also, I have a RioPlus 800 water pump.  It works good, but often after I clean out the homemade canister filter, and refill the water, and then finally restart the pump, I haveto start it 3 or 4 times before water will start flowing. Also, sometimes it makes noise for a while, and then it goes way.  The pump seems fine in every regard, but I don't know why I have to try restarting the water flow several times, and I don't understand what the noise is.  After it gets going ,it's fine for days until I clean out the filter again.  Any ideas?

 

Thank guys, I appreciate any advice.

 

-Ken B.

Group: AquaticLife Message: 55667 From: Amber Date: 1/23/2014
Subject: Re: fish aggression and water pump question
On the canister filter noise: I think the noise after cleaning it is probably an air bubble in the system, that's why the noise goes away. Restarting it a few times might also be because there's air in the line too.
I have no experience with gold fish, sorry :(

Amber

On Thu, 23 Jan 2014 13:19:34 -0900, <megablasto2000@...> wrote:

 

Hi all,

 

Two questions.

 

A couple months ago I mentioned that one of my common goldies, Stripes, likes to chase my ryukin, King Fat.  I've seen the pattern though. He does it only after they eat.  I feed them their food pellets, they eat peacefully, and after they are done, Stripes starts bumping and chasing King Fat. This goes on intermittently for about 20 or 30 minutes, and then he stops and it doesn't happen again until the next feeding time.  I have isolated Stripes when he is really naughty by using an insertable grid for a few minutes, after about 1/2 hour, I realease him from "prison".  What is this all about?  Someone mentioned before that maybe Stripes is trying to go after King Fat because he is a girl, but this behavior only happens after eating time, so I don't think that is the issue.

 

Also, I have a RioPlus 800 water pump.  It works good, but often after I clean out the homemade canister filter, and refill the water, and then finally restart the pump, I haveto start it 3 or 4 times before water will start flowing. Also, sometimes it makes noise for a while, and then it goes way.  The pump seems fine in every regard, but I don't know why I have to try restarting the water flow several times, and I don't understand what the noise is.  After it gets going ,it's fine for days until I clean out the filter again.  Any ideas?

 

Thank guys, I appreciate any advice.

 

-Ken B.




--
Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55668 From: deenerzz Date: 1/23/2014
Subject: Re: feeding veggies
Replace the veggies before they cloud up the water.
 
As for the fecal output of the plecos, you'll have to stick to water changes.
 
Mike


-----Original Message-----
From: daydreamdesign13 <daydreamdesign13@...>
To: AquaticLife <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thu, Jan 23, 2014 11:54 am
Subject: [AquaticLife] feeding veggies

 
I have 2 small bristlenose plecos in my 30 gal tank.How do I deal with the veggies causing imbalances in my water quality? I do a 1/3 water change every week but I'm still concerned. 
What do you guys do?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55669 From: daydreamdesign13 Date: 1/23/2014
Subject: Re: feeding veggies

If I don't take them out in 3 days, they fall apart. So the water never actually LOOKS cloudy but the levels are elevated. Fresh summertime veggies last so much longer. 

What do you feed your plecos & how often?

Group: AquaticLife Message: 55670 From: deenerzz Date: 1/24/2014
Subject: Re: feeding veggies
I usually have them on a maintenance diet of Pleco wafers and weekly give them squash.  Sometimes pin it under a rock or a piece of wood or let it float to give them a work out at the top of the water :)  Speaking of wood, I try to have a couple types of wood in their tanks. There are a lot of different "Plecos" and they have different dietary needs. My thoughts are that if I have two varieties of wood, Pleco wafers, veggies like the squash or zucchini and the other fish food they get in the tank they will have a somewhat varied diet.

The fish food for the other fish has protein so they do get some if it is needed. The other fish also take advantage of the veggies in the tank.

Right now the tank has turned into a breeding factory. Two caves and two males and at least one adult female.  The males occasionally fight during feeding time. May have to remove on of them.  Lots of little ones all over the tank now.  Can't keep track of how many little ones are in there now. I need to pull some and spread them to the other tanks in the house and take some to auction.

Mike



-----Original Message-----
From: daydreamdesign13 <daydreamdesign13@...>
To: AquaticLife <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>Veggie
Sent: Thu, Jan 23, 2014 10:42 pm
Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] feeding veggies

 
If I don't take them out in 3 days, they fall apart. So the water never actually LOOKS cloudy but the levels are elevated. Fresh summertime veggies last so much longer. 
What do you feed your plecos & how often?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55671 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/24/2014
Subject: Re: feeding veggies
AOL Email
Hi Daydream,
 
First, it can be overlooked that you didn't sign you name with your original post, as possibly being eager to get your message up on line and forgetting to include your name.  But, with your not signing again here, I need to ask you to please sign your posts so that we may know who you are.  While signing is not required, when your being replied to, I don't think any of us necessarily want to post to a complete stranger.
 
Now, as the time you're allowing your veggies to remain in your aquarium has become evident, it's obvious that this may well be causing your problems.  You haven't stated in your first post that you tested your water and it appeared only that you had concerns about these veggies causing imbalances in your water quality.  I was even going to suggest your testing your water to be able to know if the water quality was in fact being compromised, since you offered no clue as to why you assumed this.  As you're stating now that the levels are elevated, indicating you must have tested it, it doesn't take until the water actually becomes cloudy for this matter to start decaying resulting in poor water quality.  Veggies should be left in an aquarium for no longer than one day -- and even that's a lot of time, unless they're quite fresh as you brought out. 
 
If you feel this frequency of changing them is a waste of vegetable matter since it may not all be eaten in one day, offer smaller portions.  If you pull out uneaten food of any kind before they have the chance to start putrifying, your water quality should remain unaffected by this source.  One way to start an infusoria culture is to add crushed veggies (often lettuce) to a small jar of old aquarium water.  You WILL see a cloud of animaculae or bacteria (depending on the quality of the culture) in short time, but it's seen quickly because it's confined to a small one-quart container.  You won't see (as cloudiness) the results of rotting veggie matter in the aquarium this soon, only because of its larger volume of water, but it's still happening. 
 
Plecos may be fed Romaine lettuce (never Iceberg lettuce), cucumber slices, butternut squash, zucchini and similar matter -- even eggplant.  Some hobbyists blanch these foods although it's not always necessary.  All depends on your fish's appetite, but it's something to keep in mind
 
Ray
 
 
 
In a message dated 1/24/2014 1:42:37 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, daydreamdesign13@... writes:
 

If I don't take them out in 3 days, they fall apart. So the water never actually LOOKS cloudy but the levels are elevated. Fresh summertime veggies last so much longer. 

What do you feed your plecos & how often?

Group: AquaticLife Message: 55672 From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c Date: 1/24/2014
Subject: Re: fish aggression and water pump question

For the pump you may want to also check the shaft and make sure it is in good condition.  The shaft and impeller and even the magnet inside will wear over time.  These parts are replaceable if you notice any wear.  This can cause the issues you describe with not starting right away and also the noise.  Also check the shaft to make sure it isn't bent at all. 


As for the goldfish, it's not a good idea to house common/comet goldfish with fancy goldfish.  Comets are much more aggressive and active, and the end result is the behavior you are describing and worse.  It doesn't take much for a comet to stress a fancy goldfish enough to make it sick, and it doesn't take much if/when the comet decides that it wants the tank to itself.  A comet goldfish is capable of killing a fancy goldfish in a matter of minutes, even if the fancy goldfish outsizes the comet by more than double.  You didn't mention what size tank the goldfish are in or how big the fish are?  That would help a lot.


You can try adding more decor to the tank for a temporary help, especially floating plants.  Also soak some of the pellet food so that some floats and some sinks right away.  This will allow the comet to come to the surface for food while the fancy goldfish searches the substrate for food and should at least temporarily help with the aggression.  Ultimately the solution is to house them separately.  The older and bigger the comet gets the higher the aggression is likely to get towards the fancy goldfish, and that fancy goldfish has no way to defend itself from the comet.  Comets are much stronger swimmers and much better at maneuvering because they are streamlined and their fins are much more functional. 


Dawn

Group: AquaticLife Message: 55673 From: daydreamdesign13 Date: 1/24/2014
Subject: Re: feeding veggies

I do have a piece of driftwood in the tank. And I do see the Plecos on it regularly, but haven't noticed it getting any smaller.


I feed either zucchini or cuke. The tan Pleco loves it. I have the veggie clipped at the top of the tank and as soon as I pull out my hand, he & the Angels are after it. As far as I know, the pink one has never eaten it. I'm planning on gluing a clip to a magnet so it can be at the bottom of the tank, then maybe the pink one will find it. I also have fed the veggie chips. They blend in with the gravel so I have no idea who eats them or how fast.


I do test my water. Before & after a partial water change but not every time. I have never let the water get cloudy. The veggie has fallen apart waaay before that happens. The first time I didn't take it out before it fell apart, it had made a mess of the filter. Lesson learned.


Sorry for not signing before,

Deb



Group: AquaticLife Message: 55674 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 1/25/2014
Subject: Re: fish aggression and water pump question
Hi Ken,

  I would stress that although I keep Goldfish they are all large powerful Comets so Dawn's experience of keeping them with fancy types should be heeded. That said-I have seen very similar behavior from mine to what you describe during & immediately after feeding time & it seems to only come from certain fish-probably their playful nature & also thinking they might be missing out on something! I have never seen any of mine display aggression towards one-another but again I only have the one type. Certainly this behavior is boisterous though with a lot of pushing & shoving.

With the noisy motor immediately after firing it up, I agree with Amber-you have probably got some air in the impeller chamber. I have often found switching off & on again a few second later several times will clear this & if that fails try giving it a gentle shake as it is running & that often releases the trapped air.

  John<o)))<
 


On 24 January 2014 13:14, <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote:
 

For the pump you may want to also check the shaft and make sure it is in good condition.  The shaft and impeller and even the magnet inside will wear over time.  These parts are replaceable if you notice any wear.  This can cause the issues you describe with not starting right away and also the noise.  Also check the shaft to make sure it isn't bent at all. 


As for the goldfish, it's not a good idea to house common/comet goldfish with fancy goldfish.  Comets are much more aggressive and active, and the end result is the behavior you are describing and worse.  It doesn't take much for a comet to stress a fancy goldfish enough to make it sick, and it doesn't take much if/when the comet decides that it wants the tank to itself.  A comet goldfish is capable of killing a fancy goldfish in a matter of minutes, even if the fancy goldfish outsizes the comet by more than double.  You didn't mention what size tank the goldfish are in or how big the fish are?  That would help a lot.


You can try adding more decor to the tank for a temporary help, especially floating plants.  Also soak some of the pellet food so that some floats and some sinks right away.  This will allow the comet to come to the surface for food while the fancy goldfish searches the substrate for food and should at least temporarily help with the aggression.  Ultimately the solution is to house them separately.  The older and bigger the comet gets the higher the aggression is likely to get towards the fancy goldfish, and that fancy goldfish has no way to defend itself from the comet.  Comets are much stronger swimmers and much better at maneuvering because they are streamlined and their fins are much more functional. 


Dawn


Group: AquaticLife Message: 55675 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 1/25/2014
Subject: Re: feeding veggies
Hi Deb,

  Several years ago I kept a couple of Plecos in with my Goldfish but these were quickly re-homed to a friend's tropical tank. While in my care I gave them mainly cucumber sections about 3 inches long held down on the bottom with a Screwcumber device: http://www.screwcumber.com/ They would eat the soft middle & leave the rind until it was hollow & then they would swim through it! As Ray mentioned I would never leave these in more than a few hours & if they had not eaten it all I would remove it anyway.

  John<o)))<


On 24 January 2014 17:59, <daydreamdesign13@...> wrote:
 

I do have a piece of driftwood in the tank. And I do see the Plecos on it regularly, but haven't noticed it getting any smaller.


I feed either zucchini or cuke. The tan Pleco loves it. I have the veggie clipped at the top of the tank and as soon as I pull out my hand, he & the Angels are after it. As far as I know, the pink one has never eaten it. I'm planning on gluing a clip to a magnet so it can be at the bottom of the tank, then maybe the pink one will find it. I also have fed the veggie chips. They blend in with the gravel so I have no idea who eats them or how fast.


I do test my water. Before & after a partial water change but not every time. I have never let the water get cloudy. The veggie has fallen apart waaay before that happens. The first time I didn't take it out before it fell apart, it had made a mess of the filter. Lesson learned.


Sorry for not signing before,

Deb




Group: AquaticLife Message: 55676 From: daydreamdesign13 Date: 1/25/2014
Subject: Re: feeding veggies

So, what veggie wafers does everyone use? I have Hikari  Algae Wafers. 

Comments...preferences?

Deb

Group: AquaticLife Message: 55677 From: daydreamdesign13 Date: 1/25/2014
Subject: Re: feeding veggies

Apparently I'm just leaving it in too long. Mine will even eat the rind, he's a pig!

Deb

Group: AquaticLife Message: 55678 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/25/2014
Subject: Re: feeding veggies
AOL Email
Hi Deb,
 
At the moment, I'm using Aqueon Algae Rounds.  I'm not saying it's the best food of this type, but it's fairly good (has spirulina, kelp meal, spinach, etc.).  Looking to try something different when this is used up.  I was thinking of trying O.S.I Spirulina Wafers (Hikari Algae Wafers is also very good), but after reading that Cobalt Aquatics Algae Wafers are advertised to contain spirulina, carrot, celery, beet, parsley, lettuce, spinach and other veggies I thought I'd see how the fish like this.  Could be that the other brands have similar contents but they just don't advertise it as much.  Hikari produces one of the best lines of fish food available so you probably can't go wrong with anything they offer.
 
Ray   
 
In a message dated 1/25/2014 1:00:58 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, daydreamdesign13@... writes:
 

So, what veggie wafers does everyone use? I have Hikari  Algae Wafers. 

Comments...preferences?

Deb

Group: AquaticLife Message: 55679 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/25/2014
Subject: Re: feeding veggies
AOL Email
Deb,
 
Yes, it sounds like you're leaving their veggies in too long.  That could definitely affect the water quality.  Oh, BTW, thanks for signing -- it's very much appreciated.
 
Ray
 
In a message dated 1/25/2014 1:01:49 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, daydreamdesign13@... writes:
 

Apparently I'm just leaving it in too long. Mine will even eat the rind, he's a pig!

Deb

Group: AquaticLife Message: 55680 From: daydreamdesign13 Date: 1/25/2014
Subject: Re: feeding veggies

Mike, just out of curiosity, since I've not bred Plecos, how do you clean a tank full of tiny Plecos?

Deb

Group: AquaticLife Message: 55681 From: daydreamdesign13 Date: 1/25/2014
Subject: Re: feeding veggies

Thanks everyone who responded. I love that I have a place to ask questions, from people who actually HAVE fish instead of those who SELL fish. 

Have a great weekend!

Deb

Group: AquaticLife Message: 55682 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 1/25/2014
Subject: Re: feeding veggies
Hi Deb,

  I used to feed my Plecos Hikari wafers in addition to the cucumber-they loved 'em, trouble was my Goldies got a taste for the wafers as well & would pinch them then proceed to play underwater hockey!

  John<o)))<

 

 


On 25 January 2014 21:43, <daydreamdesign13@...> wrote:
 

Thanks everyone who responded. I love that I have a place to ask questions, from people who actually HAVE fish instead of those who SELL fish. 

Have a great weekend!

Deb


Group: AquaticLife Message: 55683 From: M Moi Date: 1/25/2014
Subject: Re: feeding veggies
Carefully :)  
Keep your thumb over the end of the siphon hose so you can stop the suction immediately.  They also really don't want anything to do with that big siphon invading their space so they make themselves scarce when that happens.  

I run the Amano ADA soil in this tank so I don't really do a deep cleaning. Mostly just the surface, it packs in pretty tight so it is not like other soils I have used that need constant deep vacuuming. 

Mike

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 25, 2014, at 2:03 PM, <daydreamdesign13@...> wrote:

 

Mike, just out of curiosity, since I've not bred Plecos, how do you clean a tank full of tiny Plecos?

Deb

Group: AquaticLife Message: 55684 From: daydreamdesign13 Date: 1/25/2014
Subject: Re: feeding veggies

The Angels do attack the chips as they fall to the bottom. Then I lose track of them.

Deb

Group: AquaticLife Message: 55685 From: daydreamdesign13 Date: 1/25/2014
Subject: Re: feeding veggies

I bet they're adorable, Mike. Got pics?

Deb

Group: AquaticLife Message: 55686 From: deenerzz Date: 1/26/2014
Subject: Re: feeding veggies
Sorry, no.

I can try and take some pics, my aquatic photography skills are pretty bad.
My girlfriend is the photographer. I keep trying to convince her to get into this aspect of photography but she does not show an interest.

Mike



-----Original Message-----
From: daydreamdesign13 <daydreamdesign13@...>
To: AquaticLife <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sat, Jan 25, 2014 10:40 pm
Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] feeding veggies

 
I bet they're adorable, Mike. Got pics?
Deb
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55687 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 1/26/2014
Subject: Re: feeding veggies
Hi Mike,

  I'm not an accomplished photographer but in my experience fish are extremely difficult to capture images of, I probably use one in every 50 shots I take. You have got the unpredictability of movement like any animal but you also have the reflections off the flat glass surfaces so try to take everything at an angle & watch out for reflections of windows/tv/computer screen! The problems start piling up when using a flash as it will likely bounce off every other shiny flat surface of your tank. I try not to use flash for fear of startling my fish but the trade-off with not using is unless they are perfectly still you get a blurred image. If that wasn't enough there's the corner refraction as well so you might get two images of the same animal.

Does anyone on the group have any good tips for photographing fish successfully?

  John<o)))<


On 26 January 2014 19:15, <Deenerz@...> wrote:
 

Sorry, no.

I can try and take some pics, my aquatic photography skills are pretty bad.
My girlfriend is the photographer. I keep trying to convince her to get into this aspect of photography but she does not show an interest.

Mike




-----Original Message-----
From: daydreamdesign13 <daydreamdesign13@...>
To: AquaticLife <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sat, Jan 25, 2014 10:40 pm
Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] feeding veggies

 
I bet they're adorable, Mike. Got pics?
Deb


Group: AquaticLife Message: 55689 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/26/2014
Subject: Re: G'day all
AOL Email
Hi Alasse(?),
 
Noticed that you just joined late this afternoon.  A pleasure to see you joining this group.  Looks like you have a good number of tanks so far; MTS can easily get out of hand < g >.  If this is your intro, whom do we have the pleasure of knowing?  Thank you.
 
Ray
 
 
In a message dated 1/26/2014 10:52:00 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, alasse_au@... writes:
 

Only new to this page, thought I'd do a small intro :)


I'm an Aussie with major multiple tank syndrome lol I am owned by a dog, 2 cats, a bird, a mouse and, as I said before multiple tanks


I'm just getting round to setting many of my tanks back up, so they are either understocked or stockless, due to illness.


So tanks running so far......

5ft which is currently being fitted with a custom 3D background

4ft 'planted' which hopefully will be starting to get stocked soon

3.5ft peppermint bristlenose breeding colony & red cherry shrimp

3ft bristlenose breeding colony & red cherry shrimp

2.6ft planted tank

2ft shellie tank

2ft goldie tank

18" nano planted

Group: AquaticLife Message: 55691 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/27/2014
Subject: Re: G'day all
AOL Email
Hi Alasse,
 
It's good to know that.  Welcome to the group, and I'm looking forward to knowing you as well, as I'm sure the rest of the group here also is.  Signing your posts, which I encourage you to do, will help ensure that the hobbyists on this group get to know you buy this name.  I'm guessing you're enjoying the warm weather of your Summer "Down Under."  Most of us up north have been brutally cold recently as frigid Arctic air has been dropping down to cover the States into the deep South.  Seems only the West has been spared and then, I'm not sure to what extent.
 
Do you have any plans for what kinds of fish will be going in your 4' and 2.6' tanks?  As Goldfish will eventually outgrow your 2' tank, sooner than later, you may want to consider moving them to the 5' tank.  Wishing you a Happy & Healthy New Year; I hope you're well over your illness by now.
 
Ray   
 
 
 
In a message dated 1/27/2014 8:50:47 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, alasse_au@... writes:
 

Hiya Ray.


Alasse is the name I go by :)


Looking forward to getting to know you all

Group: AquaticLife Message: 55693 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/27/2014
Subject: Re: G'day all
AOL Email
Hi Alasse,
 
Glad to hear you're having some nice weather, although 40 o C (104 o F) is getting a bit hot.  Hope you're able to keep the aquariums cool enough.  Looking forward to Spring here.  This Winter has been downright brutal so far. 
 
Not sure at all what you mean by your 2' tank not being standard.  In any case, I can't see how your fish won't outgrow it, as Common and Comet (long fin) standard body Goldfish can reach 14".  They're really pond fish, which I'm sure you know, but many hobbyists house them in aquariums provided their tanks are big enough.  Too small of a tank, and that can inhibit their growth, compromising their health.
 
Sounds like you're going to have some happy Cichlids, with them having a 5' tank to swim around in.  I used to ship New World Cichlids to Australia back in the 1970's; shipped them on Qantas as they had the most direct flights even if they made one or two stops enroute.  I no longer export fish though.  I think there was an aquarium club that ordered them, as I seem to recall.  Was wondering if your plans are for Central and South American Cichlids or perhaps African Rift Lake Cichlids.    Either type would be fine for that size tank, although I realize that your list of available/allowable species is greatly restricted unless things have eased up recently.
 
Ray
 
 
In a message dated 1/27/2014 10:38:08 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, alasse_au@... writes:
 

Yes it is lovely summer weather here, some days have been a bit hot (40C+)


4ft thinking of doing a tiger barb tank.

2.6ft is now how to a pair of platinum gouramis

The goldfish wont outgrow this 2ft tank, the tank is not standard :)

The 5ft tank is going to become home to some cichlids


I hope I am over it too lol

Alasse

Group: AquaticLife Message: 55695 From: megablasto2000 Date: 1/29/2014
Subject: Re: fish aggression and water pump question
Thanks for all the responses.  Time to sell this bad boy.

-Ken B.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55696 From: a777man2009 Date: 1/29/2014
Subject: Sterilizing filter
Some time ago a deadly bacteria or the like killed all the fish in the tank. It was nasty, it ate away at their faces. I cleaned the 4 foot tank using white vinegar with out problems. But I still need to clean the filter and tubes. I'm running a Jebao 915, which does up to 5 foot tanks.

How should I clean this cannister filter? I have to use a strong but safe solution on each stages filter mediums. Any suggestion?
Robert
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55697 From: lisa_lawless2004 Date: 1/29/2014
Subject: Internal filters

Hello. I think i've been on this group before, however it's been a while since i've actually had a running aquarium.

I still don't. But hopefully in the next 24 months, i will have it up again.

 

The difference this time, is that I  want to be able to set it up in a position that enables me to utilise the proper hardware.

 

Previously, I’d been using an under gravel filter. This is now broken beyond repair, and I want to do this the right way, so my fish live longer, and I don’t have to ‘vacuum’ the substrate every second day.

 

What has been recommended to me, is an internal filter. Where I only need to take the sponge out, and rinse it in tank water every other day.

 

Specifically, an ‘Aqua One 103’

 

This, I’ve been told will suit up to 100 ltrs of water.

 

Does anybody use this particular item, and is it easy to use?

 

Regards

 

Lisa

 

Group: AquaticLife Message: 55698 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/30/2014
Subject: Re: Sterilizing filter
AOL Email
Hi Robert,
 
I don't know what made you think of using white vinegar for disinfecting your tank, as this method is rather unorthodox.  But, if used at the right strength, should be effective -- especially if used in conjunction with bleach.  Bleach (chlorine bleach solution) is the universally accepted antimicrobial agent used in disinfecting tanks.  Before going into what to use on your filter, I'd just like to cover the cleaning of your 4 foot tank to ensure this disease doesn't come back.
 
Could you tell us how much vinegar you used in your tank, and could you also tell us the capacity of your 4 foot tank -- unless you just used it right from the bottle with a cloth, on this tank's surfaces while empty?  When using a vinegar solution as an antibacterial wash in the volume of your tank, it should be used at a strength of at least 1 ounce of it per gallon of this tank's water.  If your 4 foot tank holds 55 gallons, you should have used at least 55 ounces of vinegar (almost half a gallon) for it to properly disinfect the tank.
 
As I stated earlier, chlorine bleach is normally used for this purpose, but even this agent is (much) more effective in acid water than it is in alkaline water -- which is where vinegar added to this wash at the same time will help disinfect to the maximum extent.  Chlorine bleach in alkaline water will produce a mild chlorite (OCI) solution, which will be moderately effective against microbes.  But, the same amount of chlorine bleach in acid water will produce a hypochlorite (HOCI) solution, hundreds of times more effective.  The same one ounce (maximum) of vinegar should be added per gallon of tank volume along with one ounce of bottled chlorine bleach.  "Maximum" in this case, for the amount of vinegar to be used, as you don't want the aquarium's water to be too acidic, causing free chlorine gas to escape.  This same strong but safe formula can be used very effectively on your filter components for the utmost benefit in sterilization.  Rinse everything thoroughly after disinfecting. 
 
Ray
 
In a message dated 1/29/2014 6:20:08 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, 708804@... writes:
 

Some time ago a deadly bacteria or the like killed all the fish in the tank. It was nasty, it ate away at their faces. I cleaned the 4 foot tank using white vinegar with out problems. But I still need to clean the filter and tubes. I'm running a Jebao 915, which does up to 5 foot tanks.

How should I clean this cannister filter? I have to use a strong but safe solution on each stages filter mediums. Any suggestion?
Robert

Group: AquaticLife Message: 55699 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/30/2014
Subject: Re: Internal filters
AOL Email
G'Day Lisa,
 
Yes, you have definitely been on this group before; welcome back.  Looks like you're planning to set up your aquarium again -- presumedly, about a 100 Liter (about 26 U.S. Gallons).  While I haven't used this particular sponge filter, I have used these types of filters and found them to be quite effective.  However, no filter -- neither internal nor external -- will eliminate the need for vacuuming the gravel.  But, unless you're grossly overfeeding your fish, this maintenance procedure (gravel vacuuming) need not be done all this frequently (every other day, as you outline here). 
 
Gravel vacuuming needs only to be done once a week, and then, many hobbyists vacuum only half their tanks gravel at any one time, with vacuuming the other half the following week -- alternating sides each week.  This, to preserve the most nitrifying bacteria on your gravel's surface at any one time.  If you opt for a internal sponge filter, I'd recommend also using a good HOB (hang-on-back) external filter along with it, but all this depends on the bioload of the aquarium.  Still, the use of the two filters will ensure the much better end result in filtration.
 
You might also consider a canister filter for this size tank. There are smaller canister filters designed for your size tank, made here in the States by Eheim, Marineland and Fluval; I don't know what's available down under.  I will say that sponge filters are very easily cleaned, just by rinsing in a bucket of old aquarium water (can't get much easier).
 
Ray
 
 
In a message dated 1/30/2014 1:35:22 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, lisa_lawless2004@... writes:
 

Hello. I think i've been on this group before, however it's been a while since i've actually had a running aquarium.

I still don't. But hopefully in the next 24 months, i will have it up again.

 

The difference this time, is that I  want to be able to set it up in a position that enables me to utilise the proper hardware.

 

Previously, I’d been using an under gravel filter. This is now broken beyond repair, and I want to do this the right way, so my fish live longer, and I don’t have to ‘vacuum’ the substrate every second day.

 

What has been recommended to me, is an internal filter. Where I only need to take the sponge out, and rinse it in tank water every other day.

 

Specifically, an ‘Aqua One 103’

 

This, I’ve been told will suit up to 100 ltrs of water.

 

Does anybody use this particular item, and is it easy to use?

 

Regards

 

Lisa

 

Group: AquaticLife Message: 55700 From: deenerzz Date: 1/30/2014
Subject: Re: Internal filters
Hello Ray and Lisa.

I think Jebo filters are available in Australia, cheap Asian import to the States as well Australia. They make copies of eheim and fluval,  
Here is a link for canister filters on ebay Australia. http://www.ebay.com.au/sch/i.html?_odkw=aquarium&_sop=15&_osacat=46309&_from=R40&_dmpt=AU_Pet_Supplies&Product%2520Type=Filters&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.Xaquarium+canister&_nkw=aquarium+canister&_sacat=46309

Also filters in general.  http://www.ebay.com.au/sch/Filtration-Heating-/46309/i.html?_from=R40&_dmpt=AU_Pet_Supplies&Product%2520Type=Filters&_sop=15&_nkw=aquarium&_pgn=2&_skc=200&rt=nc

Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: sevenspringss1 <sevenspringss1@...>
To: AquaticLife <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thu, Jan 30, 2014 2:01 am
Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Internal filters

 
G'Day Lisa,
 
Yes, you have definitely been on this group before; welcome back.  Looks like you're planning to set up your aquarium again -- presumedly, about a 100 Liter (about 26 U.S. Gallons).  While I haven't used this particular sponge filter, I have used these types of filters and found them to be quite effective.  However, no filter -- neither internal nor external -- will eliminate the need for vacuuming the gravel.  But, unless you're grossly overfeeding your fish, this maintenance procedure (gravel vacuuming) need not be done all this frequently (every other day, as you outline here). 
 
Gravel vacuuming needs only to be done once a week, and then, many hobbyists vacuum only half their tanks gravel at any one time, with vacuuming the other half the following week -- alternating sides each week.  This, to preserve the most nitrifying bacteria on your gravel's surface at any one time.  If you opt for a internal sponge filter, I'd recommend also using a good HOB (hang-on-back) external filter along with it, but all this depends on the bioload of the aquarium.  Still, the use of the two filters will ensure the much better end result in filtration.
 
You might also consider a canister filter for this size tank. There are smaller canister filters designed for your size tank, made here in the States by Eheim, Marineland and Fluval; I don't know what's available down under.  I will say that sponge filters are very easily cleaned, just by rinsing in a bucket of old aquarium water (can't get much easier).
 
Ray
 
 
In a message dated 1/30/2014 1:35:22 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, lisa_lawless2004@... writes:
 
Hello. I think i've been on this group before, however it's been a while since i've actually had a running aquarium.
I still don't. But hopefully in the next 24 months, i will have it up again.
 
The difference this time, is that I  want to be able to set it up in a position that enables me to utilise the proper hardware.
 
Previously, I’d been using an under gravel filter. This is now broken beyond repair, and I want to do this the right way, so my fish live longer, and I don’t have to ‘vacuum’ the substrate every second day.
 
What has been recommended to me, is an internal filter. Where I only need to take the sponge out, and rinse it in tank water every other day.
 
Specifically, an ‘Aqua One 103’
 
This, I’ve been told will suit up to 100 ltrs of water.
 
Does anybody use this particular item, and is it easy to use?
 
Regards
 
Lisa
 
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55701 From: alasse_au Date: 1/30/2014
Subject: Re: Sterilizing filter

I use vinegar to disinfect and clean my empty tanks and equipment. I just use it straight from the bottle. Is excellent stuff


Give it a good rinse and ya ready to go


For the canister just clean it with the straight vinegar and again rinse it thoroughly. I would just replace the media with new for peace of mind, as most is porous and I would be nervous it had retained some vinegar (or bleack if you go that way)

Group: AquaticLife Message: 55702 From: rburrg Date: 1/30/2014
Subject: Plastic mesh and plants
Plastic mesh is frequently used to make lawns and walls in aquaria using something like java moss.  Looking at this mesh stuff I was thinking a kind of pouch might be made by sewing together 2 pieces, and filling it with a substrate like sphagnum moss (and maybe some shale to give it weight).  A sing pouch might then be able to hold several large aquatic plants, allowing them to root within the pouch.  Once securely rooted they can then be more easily moved around as a group.  Once situated, the pouch might be covered and held in place with stones or gravel. Here's a drawing of the idea:
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5494/12212135014_79641b6a28_z.jpg
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55703 From: lisa_lawless2004 Date: 1/31/2014
Subject: Re: Internal filters

Hi Ray, thanks for the quick response. I will consider using both a HOB and an Internal then. I have an aquarium quite close to where i live, and he recommends 'Aqua One'; as a top brand. 

if the internal filter is quite slim, then using both shouldn't take away from the look of the tank if i can hide it with some strategically placed plants. I already have a heater, which i'm kinda hoping still works, and the halogen light still works.


As for the gravel vac, thanks again. I think my problem last time was that i was cleaning the gravel too often, and i was taking out all the good stuff. Must have thought i was doing them good lol.


I will keep you posted as time goes



Lisa

Group: AquaticLife Message: 55704 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/31/2014
Subject: Re: Internal filters
AOL Email
Hi Lisa,
 
Good to hear back from you and learn your intentions.  Just getting back to the sponge filter once more, I find them very good for a light bioload of few fish -- or many more smaller fish.  They're excellent to raise fry with, but as I see it, if you're maintaining a tank of average sized fishes, you'd want something more than just the sponge filter to be used, for mechanical filtration -- to remove suspended particles.  Yes, a sponge filter will do this, but it can clog up its pores much faster, requiring more frequent cleaning when it shouldn't be disturbed all that frequently.  Then too, clogged pores will cut off the free-flow of water in those affected areas, effectively killing off the bacteria; it's best used primarily as a biological filter without gathering too much debris, in my estimation.
 
Glad to see that you learned something from the last time keeping an aquarium.  Yes, while most of the nitrifying bacteria will be found in the filter(s), a good amount of it will still reside on all the remaining surfaces -- and the gravel (being so uneven and offering a large surface area because of this) still harbors a lot of these bacteria.  Vacuuming too often can disrupt the cycle, especially if it hadn't completed.  As you'll note, I mentioned that many hobbyists don't even vacuum all their gravel at one time, just to help save as much bacteria as they can between cleanings.  This is important when establishing a cycle -- to vacuum only half the bottom on alternate weeks, to retain as much bacteria as possible.
 
While the 'Aqua One' may be good, you also may want to consider Hagen's Aqua Clear -- if your aquarium store carries them.  Ask them about this filter if they have it, to get their opinion on it.  It's a very good filter and quite popular here in the States.
 
Will be here to field all your posts!
 
Ray   
 
 
In a message dated 1/31/2014 6:06:22 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, lisa_lawless2004@... writes:
 

Hi Ray, thanks for the quick response. I will consider using both a HOB and an Internal then. I have an aquarium quite close to where i live, and he recommends 'Aqua One'; as a top brand. 

if the internal filter is quite slim, then using both shouldn't take away from the look of the tank if i can hide it with some strategically placed plants. I already have a heater, which i'm kinda hoping still works, and the halogen light still works.


As for the gravel vac, thanks again. I think my problem last time was that i was cleaning the gravel too often, and i was taking out all the good stuff. Must have thought i was doing them good lol.


I will keep you posted as time goes



Lisa

Group: AquaticLife Message: 55705 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 2/1/2014
Subject: Re: Plastic mesh and plants
Hi ?

  That's a really good suggestion-reminds me of tomato grow bags!

  John<o)))<


On 31 January 2014 02:24, <riburr@...> wrote:
 

Plastic mesh is frequently used to make lawns and walls in aquaria using something like java moss.  Looking at this mesh stuff I was thinking a kind of pouch might be made by sewing together 2 pieces, and filling it with a substrate like sphagnum moss (and maybe some shale to give it weight).  A sing pouch might then be able to hold several large aquatic plants, allowing them to root within the pouch.  Once securely rooted they can then be more easily moved around as a group.  Once situated, the pouch might be covered and held in place with stones or gravel. Here's a drawing of the idea:
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5494/12212135014_79641b6a28_z.jpg


Group: AquaticLife Message: 55706 From: rburrg Date: 2/1/2014
Subject: Re: Plastic mesh and plants

I just started growing java moss on plastic mesh (plastic gutter screen from the hardware store), and started thinking of other applications.  The mesh floats on the surface of a small, water-filled bowl. Short strands of cut moss lay on the mesh.  I dump a couple cap-fulls of store-bought carbonated/tonic water into the bowl each day. Here's a picture of the java moss on the mesh:

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5491/12251645795_9b9d802cff_z.jpg

Group: AquaticLife Message: 55707 From: rburrg Date: 2/2/2014
Subject: Wild aquatic plants
Wondering... Has anyone had luck cultivating wild aquatic plants from local ponds, streams and rivers?  Specifically, plants in temperate regions with cold winters and warm summers.  While paddling the local rivers in summertime I often see lush growths of a variety of aquatic plants.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55708 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 2/2/2014
Subject: Re: Plastic mesh and plants
Very nice-this is giving me ideas what I could do in my tank with something similar!

  John<o)))<


On 1 February 2014 15:01, <riburr@...> wrote:
 

I just started growing java moss on plastic mesh (plastic gutter screen from the hardware store), and started thinking of other applications.  The mesh floats on the surface of a small, water-filled bowl. Short strands of cut moss lay on the mesh.  I dump a couple cap-fulls of store-bought carbonated/tonic water into the bowl each day. Here's a picture of the java moss on the mesh:

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5491/12251645795_9b9d802cff_z.jpg


Group: AquaticLife Message: 55709 From: rburrg Date: 2/2/2014
Subject: Re: Plastic mesh and plants

Once the mesh gets covered in java moss I plan to attach it to driftwood.  The mesh will allow a larger green canopy as opposed to just tying clumps of moss directly to the wood. Also, the spans of moss covered mesh might give a piece of driftwood a wind-driven bonsai look, complimenting flow-direction in a tank; See:
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2894/12281570243_402779949a_z.jpg

Group: AquaticLife Message: 55710 From: ptimlin Date: 2/3/2014
Subject: Re: Wild aquatic plants
I have collected wild growing plants for some of my tanks for many years. Although I haven't had any issues there are a number of things to keep in mind with respect to risks associated with this practice.

For the most part, many of the aquatic plants you find are often not even native anymore but invasive plants such as milfoil, water chestnut, etc. So many of them do great in either cool water tanks or tropical tanks.


The main issue that can happen with this practice is bringing disease or invasive living things into the tank. Usually the latter is more likely. Everything from snails to hydras to various insect larvae can be brought in. Some of them are predatory so definitely don't do this to a breeding tank as fry are easy pickings for many of these (hydra, dragonfly larvae, etc.).


Many people are totally against this practice and in there view only things from a petstore are safe, although many of us know you can catch a lot of bad things from pet store stock as well.


If you do want to try this, I suggest a white bucket to allow you to rinse out whatever you collect and also can inspect the plants. Some like to use a weak bleach solution which for a short exposure won't harm the plants but can kill off certain types of parasites, insects, etc.


Only you can decide if the risks associated with this is worth it. I can only say that over the years I have never had any issues with my tanks and wild collected plants.

Group: AquaticLife Message: 55711 From: rburrg Date: 2/3/2014
Subject: Re: Wild aquatic plants
Thank you for the thoughtful reply. Yes, I'm aware wild plants might harbor things I might not want to introduce into an established tank. My plan is to do a weak bleach rinse as you suggested, and to quarantine wild plants in a 10 gal., both to look for hitchhikers and to see if gathered specimens will root and thrive before transplanting to an established tank.

I found a list of riverine plants I can expect to find in local waters near my home in Virginia, USA; See:
http://www.dcr.virginia.gov/natural_heritage/natural_communities/ncRIa.shtml

Riverine Aquatic Beds

The floating and submergent herbaceous vegetation of this group inhabits flowing streams with water depths that exclude emergent species but permit bottom rooting of aquatic species. These communities occur throughout the eastern United States. They are poorly inventoried in Virginia, but are known to occur in rocky shallows along many of the major mountain and Piedmont rivers. They are particularly well developed in base-rich waters of the Shenandoah River (including its two forks), the James River, and portions of the Roanoke River. Characteristic species include water stargrass (Heteranthera dubia), tapegrass (Vallisneria americana), pondweeds (Potamogeton spp.), waterweeds (Elodea canadensis and Elodea nuttallii), and naiads (Najas spp.). Horn-leaf riverweed (Podostemum ceratophyllum) is often abundantly rooted on shallowly submerged boulders and rock outcrops. Sluggish shoreline eddies and pools often support mats of floating duckweeds (Lemna spp.), duckmeal (Spirodela spp.), and eastern mosquito fern (Azolla caroliniana). Water pollution is a serious threat that can cause major declines or die-offs of aquatic vegetation in this group."

Group: AquaticLife Message: 55712 From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c Date: 2/3/2014
Subject: Re: Wild aquatic plants

At one time I had collected and kept a wild species of hornwort in one of my ponds and it did quite well... until I discovered it was illegal for me to have it, so I got rid of it.  While I prefer native wild plants for my ponds I have found that the majority of the plants around here are either protected or considered invasive, both of which prevent a person from collecting or keeping them.  There is also the issue about where they are collected.  Unless they are on the person's private owned property it can be extremely difficult to find a legitimate collection place that's still legal.  Where I live the local swamps, marshes, rivers, lakes, and streams mostly fall on public land that is heavily patrolled by the DNR.  There are a few streams I have seen that run through private farm land but that is heavily patrolled by the farmers, who don't like trespassers.  The few I have asked if I can collect anything on their land have refused so I gave up.  For all of those reasons I have fallen back on purchased plants either from places like Menards & Fleet Farm and local plant nurseries, or wholesalers in the aquatic plant business.  IF a person is able to find a safe collection area (where it's legal) and plants that are legal to collect, growing them shouldn't be a big problem as long as the pond they are being moved to is close in conditions to that waterway where they were collected  (similar current/water flow, sunlight conditions, etc.) and they are trimmed/dug/removed properly to allow for future growth.


Dawn

Group: AquaticLife Message: 55713 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 2/3/2014
Subject: Re: Plastic mesh and plants
I look forward to seeing it & thanks for some interesting ideas!

  John<o)))<


On 3 February 2014 04:29, <riburr@...> wrote:
 

Once the mesh gets covered in java moss I plan to attach it to driftwood.  The mesh will allow a larger green canopy as opposed to just tying clumps of moss directly to the wood. Also, the spans of moss covered mesh might give a piece of driftwood a wind-driven bonsai look, complimenting flow-direction in a tank; See:
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2894/12281570243_402779949a_z.jpg


Group: AquaticLife Message: 55714 From: lisa_lawless2004 Date: 2/3/2014
Subject: Breeding fancy guppies

My desire for when i finally get my aquarium up and running again, is to set up a breeding fancy guppy community. I've bred them in the past and got great enjoyment out of it. There was nothing better then peering into the aquarium and discovering a fry or two. They were not easy to catch though lol.

I've got a smaller 13 inch tank, which i used for raising the fry when i found them. Had no substrate in that tank, but i did have a silk westeria plant and plastic 'grass', so they felt safe.

Anyway. I just wanted to ask...it's 2-3 females to every male right?.

And how many 'pairs' can i get in an 80 Gallon tank?

 

Lisa (Australia)

Group: AquaticLife Message: 55715 From: Bharath Tonse Date: 2/4/2014
Subject: Re: Breeding fancy guppies
generally the ratio in live bearers is one male 2 four females.
i keep about 500 guppies in each tank ..  36 by 12 by 18 in
my blog .. aquariumfish.rediffiland.com
 
 ... regards .. bharath

From: "lisa_lawless2004@..." <lisa_lawless2004@...>
To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, 4 February 2014 10:18 AM
Subject: [AquaticLife] Breeding fancy guppies

 
My desire for when i finally get my aquarium up and running again, is to set up a breeding fancy guppy community. I've bred them in the past and got great enjoyment out of it. There was nothing better then peering into the aquarium and discovering a fry or two. They were not easy to catch though lol.
I've got a smaller 13 inch tank, which i used for raising the fry when i found them. Had no substrate in that tank, but i did have a silk westeria plant and plastic 'grass', so they felt safe.
Anyway. I just wanted to ask...it's 2-3 females to every male right?.
And how many 'pairs' can i get in an 80 Gallon tank?
 
Lisa (Australia)


Group: AquaticLife Message: 55716 From: Amber Date: 2/4/2014
Subject: Re: Breeding fancy guppies
You're going to want at least 2-3 females per male, the more females to males the better, as the males will stress the females out less if there are more of them to chase ;)

As to how many in an 80 gallon tank? a lot ;) You could get maybe 10 males and 30 females, plus the fry that you can't catch will still have some room to grow before you re-home them. And if you want more females you could just get less males, I'd stick with 40 or less adults though, to give them lots of room to grow. 

Amber

On Mon, 03 Feb 2014 19:48:11 -0900, <lisa_lawless2004@...> wrote:

 

My desire for when i finally get my aquarium up and running again, is to set up a breeding fancy guppy community. I've bred them in the past and got great enjoyment out of it. There was nothing better then peering into the aquarium and discovering a fry or two. They were not easy to catch though lol.

I've got a smaller 13 inch tank, which i used for raising the fry when i found them. Had no substrate in that tank, but i did have a silk westeria plant and plastic 'grass', so they felt safe.

Anyway. I just wanted to ask...it's 2-3 females to every male right?.

And how many 'pairs' can i get in an 80 Gallon tank?

 

Lisa (Australia)




--
Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55717 From: rburrg Date: 2/4/2014
Subject: Re: Wild aquatic plants
Laws are pretty restrictive about taking things from public lands, like the National Forests in the USA. The taking of live plants is forbidden, although in most areas you can harvest things like fruit, berries and mushrooms for personal consumption. Harvesting for sale is forbidden.

Dead wood can be gathered for firewood to heat your home after purchasing a permit. Dead wood can be gathered for campfires while camping without any special permit. This is the reason I think the gathering of a couple of pieces of driftwood for a home aquarium is legal, as long as it's not for sale.

If one is fishing legally and your fishing lure drags a clump or two of aquatic plants up from the depths I don't think anybody will object if the plants somehow come home with you.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55718 From: megablasto2000 Date: 2/4/2014
Subject: water pump question

Hi guys,

 

I have a RioPlus800 water pump and it is kinda noisy.  I took it completely apart and there is nothing dirty inside.  After I put it back together and put it under water (just below waterline), turned it on, it was quiet as a mouse, but when I attached the hose leading to the canister filter, then it got noisy. So I guess backpressure makes it noisy.  But according to the spec sheet, I'm supposed to use 1/2" tubing, which is exactly what I'm using throughout the system (all hoses, bulkheads, clamps, etc).  When I feel the water pressure coming out of the bare output of the water pump (no hoses attached yet) it is very strong, but when I hook the pump up to the hoses and filter and check the end of the output hose, the water pressure is weaker.  Shouldn't the final water filter output be just as strong since I used 1/2" all the way through the system?

 

-Ken B.

Group: AquaticLife Message: 55719 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 2/5/2014
Subject: Re: water pump question
Hi Ken,

  I would have though the water pressure will decrease the further it has to travel so if the outlet is a very long way from the pump it will significantly weaker than at the pump nozzle.

With regard to the pump noise, suspect #1 is always trapped air so switch it on & off a few times & jiggle it around gently.

I wouldn't recommend this but one of my old Eheim canisters used to make a horrible noise when I turned it back on so I resorted to turning it completely upside down & shook it which worked every time as a jet of tiny bubbles shot from the outlet!

  John<o)))<


On 4 February 2014 23:08, <megablasto2000@...> wrote:
 

Hi guys,

 

I have a RioPlus800 water pump and it is kinda noisy.  I took it completely apart and there is nothing dirty inside.  After I put it back together and put it under water (just below waterline), turned it on, it was quiet as a mouse, but when I attached the hose leading to the canister filter, then it got noisy. So I guess backpressure makes it noisy.  But according to the spec sheet, I'm supposed to use 1/2" tubing, which is exactly what I'm using throughout the system (all hoses, bulkheads, clamps, etc).  When I feel the water pressure coming out of the bare output of the water pump (no hoses attached yet) it is very strong, but when I hook the pump up to the hoses and filter and check the end of the output hose, the water pressure is weaker.  Shouldn't the final water filter output be just as strong since I used 1/2" all the way through the system?

 

-Ken B.


Group: AquaticLife Message: 55720 From: sevenspringss Date: 2/5/2014
Subject: Re: water pump question
AOL Email
Ken,
 
Also, if the end of the output hose is higher than the pump, the outflow will be weaker.  For every foot that it's elevated, you lose X amount of GPH (gallons per hour).  That amount lost, dependent upon the pump's rating.
 
Ray
 
 
In a message dated 2/5/2014 2:26:40 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, simmonds.john@... writes:
 

Hi Ken,

  I would have though the water pressure will decrease the further it has to travel so if the outlet is a very long way from the pump it will significantly weaker than at the pump nozzle.

With regard to the pump noise, suspect #1 is always trapped air so switch it on & off a few times & jiggle it around gently.

I wouldn't recommend this but one of my old Eheim canisters used to make a horrible noise when I turned it back on so I resorted to turning it completely upside down & shook it which worked every time as a jet of tiny bubbles shot from the outlet!

  John<o)))<


On 4 February 2014 23:08, <megablasto2000@...> wrote:
 

Hi guys,

 

I have a RioPlus800 water pump and it is kinda noisy.  I took it completely apart and there is nothing dirty inside.  After I put it back together and put it under water (just below waterline), turned it on, it was quiet as a mouse, but when I attached the hose leading to the canister filter, then it got noisy. So I guess backpressure makes it noisy.  But according to the spec sheet, I'm supposed to use 1/2" tubing, which is exactly what I'm using throughout the system (all hoses, bulkheads, clamps, etc).  When I feel the water pressure coming out of the bare output of the water pump (no hoses attached yet) it is very strong, but when I hook the pump up to the hoses and filter and check the end of the output hose, the water pressure is weaker.  Shouldn't the final water filter output be just as strong since I used 1/2" all the way through the system?

 

-Ken B.


Group: AquaticLife Message: 55721 From: megablasto2000 Date: 2/10/2014
Subject: Re: water pump question
Thanks, guys, for the answers so far on this water pump issue.  I have an idea.

I talked to the owner at local aquatics store where I sometimes buy my stuff.  He suggested that it might be the right angle elbow hose barbs I have coming in and out of my canister filter.  He guessed that each elbow is probably slowing the water flow by approximately 15% each.  Strangely, that's exactly like what the output water feels like - about 25-30% less output pressure, along with the unit's noise, to boot.  I decided I will try using straight hose barbs instead of right angle units, but that means I have to shut off the filter and disassemble it.  It will probably take a full day, since I have to put silicone caulk around the fittings and allow for cure time.

Can anyone chime in about whether it will be OK to allow my fish to live in the unfiltered water for about 24 hours?  Currently, there are 3 fish, all about 3.5" - 4" long each, in a 20 gallon.

-Ken B.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55722 From: megablasto2000 Date: 2/10/2014
Subject: Re: water pump question
Hi Ray,

The output hose is only about 3" higher than the pump.  I have the pump placed near the waterline.  The output hose ends with a U-shaped pipe that only rises about 3 inches higher than the pump's intake.

-Ken B.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55723 From: Amber Date: 2/10/2014
Subject: Re: water pump question
If the tank is not over stocked I would say yes, if you don't have any cold water or high oxygen type fish (like hillstream loaches for example). I would recommend that you put in an airstone/pump if you have one on hand, if not you might want to at least do a decent sized water change (at least 25% maybe more) sometime in that 24 hours before you put the filter back on the tank.

Amber

On Sun, 09 Feb 2014 22:41:40 -0900, <megablasto2000@...> wrote:

 

Thanks, guys, for the answers so far on this water pump issue.  I have an idea.

I talked to the owner at local aquatics store where I sometimes buy my stuff.  He suggested that it might be the right angle elbow hose barbs I have coming in and out of my canister filter.  He guessed that each elbow is probably slowing the water flow by approximately 15% each.  Strangely, that's exactly like what the output water feels like - about 25-30% less output pressure, along with the unit's noise, to boot.  I decided I will try using straight hose barbs instead of right angle units, but that means I have to shut off the filter and disassemble it.  It will probably take a full day, since I have to put silicone caulk around the fittings and allow for cure time.

Can anyone chime in about whether it will be OK to allow my fish to live in the unfiltered water for about 24 hours?  Currently, there are 3 fish, all about 3.5" - 4" long each, in a 20 gallon.

-Ken B.

Group: AquaticLife Message: 55724 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 2/10/2014
Subject: Re: water pump question
You might have problems with die-off of the good bacteria in your filter if it is not oxygenated with a flow of water for such a long time. Is it possible to install a small temporary return pump & hose just to keep the filter healthy during the down time? Apologies if I'm barking up the wrong tree!

  John<o)))<


On 10 February 2014 15:29, Amber <arberglund@...> wrote:
If the tank is not over stocked I would say yes, if you don't have any cold water or high oxygen type fish (like hillstream loaches for example). I would recommend that you put in an airstone/pump if you have one on hand, if not you might want to at least do a decent sized water change (at least 25% maybe more) sometime in that 24 hours before you put the filter back on the tank.

Amber

On Sun, 09 Feb 2014 22:41:40 -0900, <megablasto2000@...> wrote:

 

Thanks, guys, for the answers so far on this water pump issue.  I have an idea.

I talked to the owner at local aquatics store where I sometimes buy my stuff.  He suggested that it might be the right angle elbow hose barbs I have coming in and out of my canister filter.  He guessed that each elbow is probably slowing the water flow by approximately 15% each.  Strangely, that's exactly like what the output water feels like - about 25-30% less output pressure, along with the unit's noise, to boot.  I decided I will try using straight hose barbs instead of right angle units, but that means I have to shut off the filter and disassemble it.  It will probably take a full day, since I have to put silicone caulk around the fittings and allow for cure time.

Can anyone chime in about whether it will be OK to allow my fish to live in the unfiltered water for about 24 hours?  Currently, there are 3 fish, all about 3.5" - 4" long each, in a 20 gallon.

-Ken B.


Group: AquaticLife Message: 55725 From: sevenspringss Date: 2/10/2014
Subject: Re: water pump question
AOL Email
Hi Ken,
 
Okay, so then it's not that it's pumping to any great height.  Yes, those right angle elbows will slow up the flow.  As for the fish living 24 hours without filtration, it's not so much the filtration you need to be concerned about but the turnover of surface water, so as to exchange gases in a timely manner.  If this were a 30" long 20 gallon tank, it would be more adequate for the purpose, rather than being a 24" long 20 gallon tank.  If you have an air pump supplying aeration, it would be no problem at all.  With a maximum of 12" of fish, this should be alright in a 20 High, but it is a bit tight.  What kind(s) of fishes are they and what's the temperature?
 
Ray 
 
In a message dated 2/10/2014 4:48:27 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, megablasto2000@... writes:
 

Hi Ray,

The output hose is only about 3" higher than the pump.  I have the pump placed near the waterline.  The output hose ends with a U-shaped pipe that only rises about 3 inches higher than the pump's intake.

-Ken B.

Group: AquaticLife Message: 55726 From: ptimlin Date: 2/10/2014
Subject: Re: water pump question
I have this handy little pocket reference book that gives all kinds of useful information. It has a nice section on water where it gives all kinds of data on things like flow rates in pipes, head pressure on pumps, etc,

Anyway, it lists frictional losses of pipe fittings. To your point about the elbow joints, as an example, for copper and steel pipes, if using 1/2" piping, a 90-degree elbow is the equivalent to about 1.6-feet of straight pipe in terms of frictional loss while a 45-degree fitting that frictional drop is half to 0.8-feet. I believe plastic pipe systems have an even higher frictional loss on flow rate. So yes, 90 elbows take out some flow so best to minimize the use of them when possible or try and go with 45-degree ones if you must. Also total pipe length will have an effect, so shorter is better when possible.

As to your question on how your fish will do without a filter for a day, those are fairly large fish in a somewhat smallish tank given their size. But as long as they are not gasping for air at the surface, they should be fine. My rule of thumb is if the fish can not live in a tank with the filters turned off for that long, then your tank is overstocked. My philosophy is filters are there to assist and should not be the critical life support and something like a power failure where the filter may be off for hours shouldn't result in any deaths of the live stock. Understocking and frequent water changes are my main modes of life support. So perhaps this exercise of redoing the filter can also let you know if you need to consider less/smaller fish or a bigger tank.

Best of luck with the project.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55727 From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c Date: 2/10/2014
Subject: Re: water pump question
I agree with Ray, with an air pump in place and temp held steady they should be fine for 24 hrs.  You might want to do a water change the day before you do this, too.  That will help bring waste levels down a bit for the time where there isn't anything other than biological filtration going on in the tank. 

Dawn
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55728 From: megablasto2000 Date: 2/10/2014
Subject: Re: water pump question

Ptimlin,


Thanks for that info.  It is good to hear confirmation about the elbows.


I plan on selling the largest goldfish I have, so I will only have 2, and will be making a 50-75 gallon tank soon.


-Ken B.

Group: AquaticLife Message: 55729 From: megablasto2000 Date: 2/11/2014
Subject: Re: water pump question
I guess it would just be better to remake the filter and transfer the media to the new filter instead of hoping I don't kill of the bacteria.  It didn't cost that much and the redesign would cure a few other issues I have with my first stab at making the homemade filter.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55730 From: megablasto2000 Date: 2/11/2014
Subject: fishless tank cycling question
I noticed the ph of the water was at 7.5 or higher.  If I want to reduce it, can I just use vinegar or citric acid powder?

-Ken B.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55731 From: sevenspringss Date: 2/12/2014
Subject: Re: fishless tank cycling question
AOL Email
Ken,
 
As you have goldfish, why would you want to lower your pH?  At pH 7.5, this is ideal for goldfish, although you haven't stated how high the "higher" pH value could be.  Still, when I managed one of the nation's largest water garden supply houses before I retired, there were customers coming in who had pH values up to 9.2, who's goldfish still did well.  It was only when their pH started approaching 9.4 when they began having problems.  If at all possible, it's always best to work with the pH you have, as it's much easier to maintain the same pH as your source (tap water).  By "easier," this means that not only would you be having a steady pH when using you tap water for partial water changes, but that there would be no need for the fish to keep readjusting to your higher pH tap water each time when making water changes to a tank having an artificially lowered pH.
 
I'm assuming that you're planning on adding a pH reducer each time you make partial water changes, since you would have to if you want to maintain a lower pH at all times -- unless you hadn't thought of that.  Adding a pH reducer just one initial time isn't going to keep it there when you make partial water changes and pH bounce will stress you fish each time it rises when you make water changes having a higher pH to an aquarium having a lower pH..
 
While I don't recommend your changing the pH, especially as I don't at all see a need for it, white vinegar -- used slowly and sparingly -- will do just that, if you still feel you must.     
 
Ray
 
 
In a message dated 2/11/2014 10:35:21 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, megablasto2000@... writes:
 

I noticed the ph of the water was at 7.5 or higher.  If I want to reduce it, can I just use vinegar or citric acid powder?

-Ken B.

Group: AquaticLife Message: 55732 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 2/12/2014
Subject: Re: fishless tank cycling question
I agree with Ray completely about a stable pH-this is far more important than whatever is perceived as the textbook 'ideal' for a particular type of fish. If they are doing well you really are making problems for yourself in the future as well as increasing your maintenance workload by artificially altering the natural pH. Mine is 7.8 & has been since day 1.

  John<o)))<


On 12 February 2014 11:19, <sevenspringss1@...> wrote:
 

Ken,
 
As you have goldfish, why would you want to lower your pH?  At pH 7.5, this is ideal for goldfish, although you haven't stated how high the "higher" pH value could be.  Still, when I managed one of the nation's largest water garden supply houses before I retired, there were customers coming in who had pH values up to 9.2, who's goldfish still did well.  It was only when their pH started approaching 9.4 when they began having problems.  If at all possible, it's always best to work with the pH you have, as it's much easier to maintain the same pH as your source (tap water).  By "easier," this means that not only would you be having a steady pH when using you tap water for partial water changes, but that there would be no need for the fish to keep readjusting to your higher pH tap water each time when making water changes to a tank having an artificially lowered pH.
 
I'm assuming that you're planning on adding a pH reducer each time you make partial water changes, since you would have to if you want to maintain a lower pH at all times -- unless you hadn't thought of that.  Adding a pH reducer just one initial time isn't going to keep it there when you make partial water changes and pH bounce will stress you fish each time it rises when you make water changes having a higher pH to an aquarium having a lower pH..
 
While I don't recommend your changing the pH, especially as I don't at all see a need for it, white vinegar -- used slowly and sparingly -- will do just that, if you still feel you must.     
 
Ray
 
 
In a message dated 2/11/2014 10:35:21 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, megablasto2000@... writes:
 

I noticed the ph of the water was at 7.5 or higher.  If I want to reduce it, can I just use vinegar or citric acid powder?

-Ken B.


Group: AquaticLife Message: 55733 From: megablasto2000 Date: 2/12/2014
Subject: Re: fishless tank cycling question

If 7.5 is good, then I will leave it there.  I have heard different things over time.  Sometimes I heard 7.2 or 7.0 was good, etc.

 

I'm still feeling like a total noob.  I think I have been changing my water too often.  After reading the fishless tank cycling post, I realized I had forgotten that I needed the ammonia to go up for a while to feed the nitrobacters.  Well, everytime I change the water, I add the water conditioner, and it says on the bottle that it reduces ammonia, so I think I have fooled myself that ammonia is "bad" for the fish, when in reality, it is necessary to get the biofiltration going.  I have been wondering why it is taking so long to get better nitrite and nitrate test results in my new filter.  I don't think the nitrobacters have been getting enough food.  My ammonia tests always comes out straight yellow.

 

I have been adding a teaspoon of salt, also some baking soda, to the fresh water at each change (25% every 2-3 days), and gravel vacuuming, so maybe that's why my fish haven't died yet?  Maybe I'm working too hard and the filter isn't getting setup right.  I'm glad I read the fishless tank cycling post.  I'm going to let more time pass between water changes so the ammonia can go up a bit, and keep the ph where it is and keep the filter floss clean.

 

Comments and criticism are welcome.

 

-Ken B.

Group: AquaticLife Message: 55734 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 2/13/2014
Subject: Re: fishless tank cycling question
H
i Ken,

  The good bacteria live in your filter & on all the surfaces in the tank, not in the water so it's ok-beneficial in fact to partially change the water often. How long has your tank been set up? I'm not sure on the baking powder-never used it.

  John<o)))<



On 13 February 2014 06:31, <megablasto2000@...> wrote:
 

If 7.5 is good, then I will leave it there.  I have heard different things over time.  Sometimes I heard 7.2 or 7.0 was good, etc.

 

I'm still feeling like a total noob.  I think I have been changing my water too often.  After reading the fishless tank cycling post, I realized I had forgotten that I needed the ammonia to go up for a while to feed the nitrobacters.  Well, everytime I change the water, I add the water conditioner, and it says on the bottle that it reduces ammonia, so I think I have fooled myself that ammonia is "bad" for the fish, when in reality, it is necessary to get the biofiltration going.  I have been wondering why it is taking so long to get better nitrite and nitrate test results in my new filter.  I don't think the nitrobacters have been getting enough food.  My ammonia tests always comes out straight yellow.

 

I have been adding a teaspoon of salt, also some baking soda, to the fresh water at each change (25% every 2-3 days), and gravel vacuuming, so maybe that's why my fish haven't died yet?  Maybe I'm working too hard and the filter isn't getting setup right.  I'm glad I read the fishless tank cycling post.  I'm going to let more time pass between water changes so the ammonia can go up a bit, and keep the ph where it is and keep the filter floss clean.

 

Comments and criticism are welcome.

 

-Ken B.


Group: AquaticLife Message: 55735 From: Amber Date: 2/13/2014
Subject: Re: fishless tank cycling question
The reason your fish are okay is from the water conditioner nullifying the ammonia, and then you're doing very regular water changes.
Water changes are NOT a bad thing, but if you're trying to get your biofilter fully established it's going to take even longer for you. Since right now you are cycling with fish I would recommend still doing water changes, but watch your ammonia and do a water change when you can read ammonia on the test strip. Don't let it get too high though or it will cause harm to the fish. You might want to also get a different water conditioner that doesn't affect the ammonia. Are you using Prime or something similar? They are good products, but you can find cheaper ones that will do just as good of a job. Do you know if you have heavy metals in your water?

Amber

On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 21:31:24 -0900, <megablasto2000@...> wrote:

 

If 7.5 is good, then I will leave it there.  I have heard different things over time.  Sometimes I heard 7.2 or 7.0 was good, etc.

 

I'm still feeling like a total noob.  I think I have been changing my water too often.  After reading the fishless tank cycling post, I realized I had forgotten that I needed the ammonia to go up for a while to feed the nitrobacters.  Well, everytime I change the water, I add the water conditioner, and it says on the bottle that it reduces ammonia, so I think I have fooled myself that ammonia is "bad" for the fish, when in reality, it is necessary to get the biofiltration going.  I have been wondering why it is taking so long to get better nitrite and nitrate test results in my new filter.  I don't think the nitrobacters have been getting enough food.  My ammonia tests always comes out straight yellow.

 

I have been adding a teaspoon of salt, also some baking soda, to the fresh water at each change (25% every 2-3 days), and gravel vacuuming, so maybe that's why my fish haven't died yet?  Maybe I'm working too hard and the filter isn't getting setup right.  I'm glad I read the fishless tank cycling post.  I'm going to let more time pass between water changes so the ammonia can go up a bit, and keep the ph where it is and keep the filter floss clean.

 

Comments and criticism are welcome.

 

-Ken B.




--
Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55736 From: rburrg Date: 2/13/2014
Subject: Re: fishless tank cycling question
Baking soda will raise pH. Depending on final pH this might form toxic ammonia, if I understand the chemistry.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55737 From: sevenspringss Date: 2/13/2014
Subject: Re: fishless tank cycling question
AOL Email
Ken,
 
A pH of 7.5 is fine.  No need to do anything at all to the water to reduce it.  Yes, as Amber stated, the main reason why your fish haven't died yet is because of the water conditioner (if it's a dechloraminator rather than just a dechlorinator) you're using -- not because of adding salt or baking soda to the water or because of your gravel vacuuming.  I'm assuming that your tap water contains chloramine (and not just chlorine) since the conditioner states that it reduces ammonia.  You're using the correct water conditioner if it's formulated to detoxify chloramine in this case.  OH, BTW, the water conditioner may "reduce" the ammonia but it's converted ammonium level remains the same; the nitrobacters still have the same amount of nitrogenous wastes to feed on.    
 
While you don't want the ammonia to build up too much, you do need to keep a certain level of it as nitrobacter food, to establish your cycle.  While you mention your ammonia tests always come out yellow, you haven't said what type of ammonia test kit you have.  I noticed Amber assumes you have test strips, but I haven't seen you say anything about this unless I missed it.  Actually, liquid test kits are by far the most accurate and if this is not what you have, I'd recommend get one -- as part of a master test kit containing the tests for the other water parameters you'll need to monitor. 
 
Now, when I said to keep a certain ammonia level in your water, this is to be done ONLY with the use of a good dechloraminator-type water conditioner -- which brings to mind, what brand are you using?  Prime, which Amber mentions is very good, but as she also said, there are less expensive ones that do the same thing.  There are also some that remove heavy metals; the reason you were asked about them.  When using your water conditioner, it will not only break the bond between the chlorine and the ammonia of the chloramine, but will convert the ammonia into relatively harmless ammonium -- which is why your fish are remaining safe.  Ammonia (NH3) IS definitely "bad" for your fish, as you may have originally thought.  Don't be fooled into thinking that ammonia isn't bad for the fish, except as in the form of ammonium (NH4OH). 
 
For two 4" goldfish in a 20 gallon tank, you shouldn't need to do a PWC (partial water change) any more often than about once a week after the tank is cycled, or about every four days when the cycle is getting established, depending on how much waste they're producing.  If John feels differently, I'd go with what he says.  Now, in maintaining a ammonia (ammonium) level safely so that the fish aren't affected, use the Prime (or other water conditioner)  when you first make a PWC -- and again, after two days.  This will ensure that any new ammonia being produced by the fish is also converted into ammonium.  Before the fish get much bigger, it would be prudent to move them to the larger lank you're planning on.
 
Several things I see I must address, that you've brought up.  We'd like to know how many PWC's you've made on this tank so far.  The reason for this is that your addition of one teaspoon of salt with every PWC you've been doing doesn't evaporate.  You may already be aware of this, but then, if you're adding one teaspoon of salt each time you do a water change -- and you're removing 25% of the old water (as doing a 25% PWC) each time you make this change -- you're removing salt, but ONLY 25% each time.  So, for every teaspoon of salt you've been adding, you're leaving behind 3/4 teaspoon of salt each time; It keeps building up!  If you've done 20 PWC's by now, you have 15 teaspoons of salt remaining in your 20 gallons.  Let us know the amount of PWC's you've done.
 
Getting to the baking soda -- I have no idea why you'd want to use this in the first place if you wanted to decrease the pH, as baking soda increases the pH.  No only is there absolutely no need to add baking soda, but it should not be added unless under certain circumstances where one needs to either maintain a certain pH with the continued influence of an acid or where you need to maintain a higher pH than normal.     
 
Now, on to gravel vacuuming.  This should not be done too often when cycling a tank, and then, when it is done it should only be done to half the bottom at a time leaving the other half until the following week to vacuum that portion.  So, do half the gravel once a week, alternating sides when you do this.  As your filter hasn't yet become fully populated with nitrobacters, and as the gravel's to surface contains nitrobacters -- albeit, not a large population at this stage -- you want to retain as much nitrifying bacteria as possible while the tank is cycling, to ensure the ammonia doesn't get out of hand.
 
As for the filter floss, keep it clean enough at this time only to the extent that particulates don't build up on it, blocking the flow of water from contacting the media.  Then -- when you do clean it -- rinse it off ONLY in a bucket of old aquarium water, never under the faucet.   
 
One last thing (for now), If you added salt right from the very beginning, this in itself would have prevented the fish from being poisoned by any high ammonia (NH3) levels, although I suspect you have too much salt in the water right now.  To keep the fish safe from ammonia toxicity, you need add only about 1/8 (or less) teaspoon of salt per gallon -- but it must be already in the water before any ammonia elevation, to ensure the safety of the fish.  If by chance your fish ever get poisoned by excess ammonia (not ammonium) in the absence of salt, you'd need to add (progressively -- as 1 tsp per gallon per day) 3 teaspoons of salt per gallon and keep that level for at least 2 weeks, so it's a lot easier to keep a token amount of salt in the water from the beginning when you're cycling with fish.
 
Keep an eye on your nitrite as the cycle progresses, and don't fail to ask us if you have any problems.  Nitrite is much more toxic than ammonia, although even more so in lower pH conditions. 
 
Ray       
 
  
 
In a message dated 2/13/2014 1:33:12 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, megablasto2000@... writes:
 

If 7.5 is good, then I will leave it there.  I have heard different things over time.  Sometimes I heard 7.2 or 7.0 was good, etc.

 

I'm still feeling like a total noob.  I think I have been changing my water too often.  After reading the fishless tank cycling post, I realized I had forgotten that I needed the ammonia to go up for a while to feed the nitrobacters.  Well, everytime I change the water, I add the water conditioner, and it says on the bottle that it reduces ammonia, so I think I have fooled myself that ammonia is "bad" for the fish, when in reality, it is necessary to get the biofiltration going.  I have been wondering why it is taking so long to get better nitrite and nitrate test results in my new filter.  I don't think the nitrobacters have been getting enough food.  My ammonia tests always comes out straight yellow.

 

I have been adding a teaspoon of salt, also some baking soda, to the fresh water at each change (25% every 2-3 days), and gravel vacuuming, so maybe that's why my fish haven't died yet?  Maybe I'm working too hard and the filter isn't getting setup right.  I'm glad I read the fishless tank cycling post.  I'm going to let more time pass between water changes so the ammonia can go up a bit, and keep the ph where it is and keep the filter floss clean.

 

Comments and criticism are welcome.

 

-Ken B.

Group: AquaticLife Message: 55738 From: sevenspringss Date: 2/13/2014
Subject: Re: fishless tank cycling question
AOL Email
Yes, the higher the pH, the more Free Ammonia (toxic ammonia) will be produced/released from any ammonium residing in the water.  The pH, and to a lesser extent, the temperature dictates the amount of any possible Free Ammonia in water containing any Ammonium/Ammonia compounds. 
 
Ray
 
In a message dated 2/13/2014 11:43:01 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, riburr@... writes:
 

Baking soda will raise pH. Depending on final pH this might form toxic ammonia, if I understand the chemistry.

Group: AquaticLife Message: 55739 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 2/13/2014
Subject: Re: fishless tank cycling question
Hi Ken,

  You might be wondering about heavy metals in your water as both Amber & Ray have mentioned them. The websites of water companies world-wide usually have a section for typing in your post/zip code & they return a full water quality report for your area detailing many things that are in the water & in what concentrations. You could maybe post it on here so we could see just what it is made up of.

With regard to Ray's suggestion about going with what I suggest about water changes-he's far more the expert than I so I would go with his recommendations!

  John<o)))<

 


On 13 February 2014 17:20, <sevenspringss1@...> wrote:
 

Yes, the higher the pH, the more Free Ammonia (toxic ammonia) will be produced/released from any ammonium residing in the water.  The pH, and to a lesser extent, the temperature dictates the amount of any possible Free Ammonia in water containing any Ammonium/Ammonia compounds. 
 
Ray
 
In a message dated 2/13/2014 11:43:01 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, riburr@... writes:
 

Baking soda will raise pH. Depending on final pH this might form toxic ammonia, if I understand the chemistry.


Group: AquaticLife Message: 55740 From: megablasto2000 Date: 2/13/2014
Subject: Re: fishless tank cycling question
Hi Ray,

Thank you for the advice and commentary.  You made a lot of comments, so I will try to respond to each one in serial fashion.

"I'm assuming that your tap water contains chloramine (and not just chlorine) since the conditioner states that it reduces ammonia."
I don't know if my tap contains chloramine.  I guess I should call my water company and ask them for a report, or see if there is one online.  The two water conditioners I've used are Seachem Neutral Regulator (at first), and Seachem Prime (past couple months).  They both list that they remove chlorine, chloramine, and ammonia.

"
While you mention your ammonia tests always come out yellow, you haven't said what type of ammonia test kit you have."
I was using test strips early on, but have been using the API Master Test Kit for a few months, now.

"...a good dechloraminator-type water conditioner -- which brings to mind, what brand are you using?"
I've been using Seachem Prime for a few months.

"
We'd like to know how many PWC's you've made on this tank so far.  The reason for this is that your addition of one teaspoon of salt with every PWC you've been doing doesn't evaporate."
*gulp!*  I've been adding the salt for the past couple weeks, and change the water about every 2 or 3 days.  Maybe about 7 or 8 PWCs.

"
Getting to the baking soda -- I have no idea why you'd want to use this in the first place if you wanted to decrease the pH, as baking soda increases the pH."
I've been using the baking soda to try and maintain the ph above 7.0.  After a while, it wants to dip, and I was under the impression that goldfish like it at around 7.2 or higher.

"
As your filter hasn't yet become fully populated with nitrobacters, and as the gravel's to surface contains nitrobacters -- albeit, not a large population at this stage -- you want to retain as much nitrifying bacteria as possible while the tank is cycling..."
OK.  I was thinking that the nitrobacters are sticking to the gravel and that vacuuming the gravel wouldn't affect them.  I thought I could only affect them if I actually scrubbed them off, or if I cleaned/washed them with something toxic.  Are you saying that removing the fish waste via gravel vac is removing the nitrobacters?

"As for the filter floss, keep it clean enough at this time only to the extent that particulates don't build up on it, blocking the flow of water from contacting the media.  Then -- when you do clean it -- rinse it off ONLY in a bucket of old aquarium water, never under the faucet."
This is one that confuses me.  My canister filter I made currently has 4 levels of filtration.  Level 1 is coarse foam, level 2 is common filter floss, level 3 is fine white felt, and level 4 is my biomedia.  Currently, I am using BioHome Ultra media from U.K.  It looked like awesome stuff.  You can see it on YouTube (user "pondguru").  Anyway, I was under the impression that I can clean the foams and flosses as much as I want, as long as I don't bother the biomedia, right?

-Ken B.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55741 From: megablasto2000 Date: 2/13/2014
Subject: Re: fishless tank cycling question
So, it sounds like a bad idea to add the baking soda?  I was trying to keep the ph level above 7.0.

-Ken B.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55742 From: megablasto2000 Date: 2/13/2014
Subject: Re: fishless tank cycling question
According to this water quality report, my service uses chloramine to treat water.
https://www.ebmud.com/sites/default/files/pdfs/ebmud-2012-water-quality-report-english-version.pdf

Chlorate is also listed, but I'm not sure if that's the same as "chlorine".

-Ken B.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55743 From: buldog1971 Date: 2/16/2014
Subject: Dalmatian Fish
I have a lot of dalmation fish I need to get rid of. I am not sure what to do with them, they are over populating my tank, I have several adds on Craiglists to get rid of them but no response, any help with what to do with these fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55744 From: pam andress Date: 2/16/2014
Subject: Re: Dalmatian Fish
You could contact fish club, schools etc to see if they would like some. Many doctors offices and such have tanks. Good luck!


To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
From: boxertwins06@...
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2014 17:05:42 -0800
Subject: [AquaticLife] Dalmatian Fish

 
I have a lot of dalmation fish I need to get rid of. I am not sure what to do with them, they are over populating my tank, I have several adds on Craiglists to get rid of them but no response, any help with what to do with these fish
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55745 From: megablasto2000 Date: 2/16/2014
Subject: Re: Dalmatian Fish
Have you asked a local petstore or fish place if they will take them?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55746 From: megablasto2000 Date: 2/17/2014
Subject: Coating aquarium decorations before submersion

I heard that if you don't want an aquarium decoration to affect the fish's water, you should epoxy coat the objects first.

 

Is there a particular kind of epoxy that should be used? Any experiences?

 

I am thinking of putting some foo dogs (jade Chinese lion) in mine, and also some "turtles" made of resin.  I was also thinking of adding some larger rocks and slate at some point too. Any comments?

 

-Ken B.

Group: AquaticLife Message: 55747 From: bulldog_bob_sly Date: 2/17/2014
Subject: Water treatment question
I heard of Prime - can I use that in place of aquasafeplus for a goldfish bowl or tank ?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55748 From: Amber Date: 2/17/2014
Subject: Re: Coating aquarium decorations before submersion
Spar varnish works really well too. And it's not 2 part like the epoxy would be, so it's quicker to apply. Spar varnish is typically used for wood on boats.

Amber

On Sun, 16 Feb 2014 23:32:13 -0900, <megablasto2000@...> wrote:

 

I heard that if you don't want an aquarium decoration to affect the fish's water, you should epoxy coat the objects first.

 

Is there a particular kind of epoxy that should be used? Any experiences?

 

I am thinking of putting some foo dogs (jade Chinese lion) in mine, and also some "turtles" made of resin.  I was also thinking of adding some larger rocks and slate at some point too. Any comments?

 

-Ken B.




--
Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55749 From: rburrg Date: 2/17/2014
Subject: Re: Coating aquarium decorations before submersion
There was a recent story on NPR about artifacts from the National Aquarium in D.C. being moved to Detroit's Belle Isle Aquarium.  Most of these were replicas of coral and things like sunken ships made of fiberglass, used as underwater decorations. I assume many of these were for use in salt water.

See:
http://www.npr.org/2014/02/04/271591559/some-fake-coral-might-mean-a-sea-change-at-detroit-aquarium
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55750 From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c Date: 2/18/2014
Subject: Re: Water treatment question
Yes you can use Prime instead, but be aware it may alter the readings on some brands of test kits. 
Please do NOT put goldfish into a bowl.  Goldfish need very large, well filtered aquariums with lots of water changes & gravel vacs.  Healthy fancy goldfish grow up to 9 inches and are as big around as a softball.  Healthy comet goldfish (feeder goldfish) grow up to 14 inches.  For a single fancy goldfish at least 90+ gallons is needed.  For a comet goldfish at least 125 gallons.

Dawn 
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55751 From: buldog1971 Date: 2/18/2014
Subject: Re: Dalmatian Fish
I talked to Petco and they are full on their fish tanks and they can not take anymore fish right now
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55752 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 2/18/2014
Subject: Re: Dalmatian Fish
There is a UK only aquatic market place called Aquarist-perhaps some US member can suggest a similar site in the States where these fish may be advertised? Do you have any small independent fish stores-they may also be able to help you. Alternatively contact local schools, colleges, old folk's homes or doctor's surgeries & see if their tropical tanks need stocking up.

  John<o)))<


On 18 February 2014 18:09, <boxertwins06@...> wrote:
 

I talked to Petco and they are full on their fish tanks and they can not take anymore fish right now


Group: AquaticLife Message: 55753 From: love_animals07 Date: 2/18/2014
Subject: Thin tiger barb suddenly died?
Good day... A while ago, I noticed that one of my tiger barbs was very thin. I watched it for a few days to make sure it was eating and no other fish was bullying it. Nothing was wrong. So, I figured maybe it just wasn't getting enough food. I started feeding them twice a day instead of once a day. Today, I turned the light on and then wandered away from the tank for a while and when I came back, I noticed something large floating at the top of the tank out of the corner of my eye. Thinking "Man, that's a large pond snail!" I starred for a second. Then I realized it wasn't a snail but a fish! The barb's eye is completely covered in fungus when I saw it. It looks like it's been dead all day...

Why did it die? Any ideas? I'm worried about loosing the rest of the fish as well....
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55754 From: sevenspringss Date: 2/19/2014
Subject: Re: Thin tiger barb suddenly died?
AOL Email
Test your water parameters and give us the results.  Also, give us some idea of your maintenance regimen.
 
Ray
 
 
In a message dated 2/18/2014 6:06:13 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, love_animals07@... writes:
 

Good day... A while ago, I noticed that one of my tiger barbs was very thin. I watched it for a few days to make sure it was eating and no other fish was bullying it. Nothing was wrong. So, I figured maybe it just wasn't getting enough food. I started feeding them twice a day instead of once a day. Today, I turned the light on and then wandered away from the tank for a while and when I came back, I noticed something large floating at the top of the tank out of the corner of my eye. Thinking "Man, that's a large pond snail!" I starred for a second. Then I realized it wasn't a snail but a fish! The barb's eye is completely covered in fungus when I saw it. It looks like it's been dead all day...

Why did it die? Any ideas? I'm worried about loosing the rest of the fish as well....

Group: AquaticLife Message: 55755 From: jett07002 Date: 2/19/2014
Subject: Re: Water treatment question

PLEASE, bulldog, do not put goldfish in a bowl!   I don't care how big it is, believe me, it's not big enough.  They need a lot of space and nice fresh, clean moving water.


joe t

Group: AquaticLife Message: 55756 From: love_animals07 Date: 2/19/2014
Subject: Re: Thin tiger barb suddenly died?
I do either a 30-40% water change every week, sometimes more if the nitrate test is red colored. When I tested it yesterday, I had no ammonia, no nitrite, and around 30ppm of nitrate. Water is at 72 degrees. pH is 8.2 .
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55757 From: love_animals07 Date: 2/19/2014
Subject: Re: Thin tiger barb suddenly died?
Oh, and here's a video I took of one of my bala sharks. I did noticed a little orange coloration on it's fins and I'm wondering if there could be velvet in the tank. I've never actually seen any good pictures of it, so maybe someone who has could say if it is or not... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2CON6YRFSXE
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55758 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 2/19/2014
Subject: Re: Water treatment question
Agreed-I have just 3 pond sized Comets in a 100 UK gallon tank & simply to keep up with the water quality I have to change out 25 gallons every 2 days. They are very dirty fish in comparison with others & can quickly pollute their water & that is the reason most of them never reach their potential size & life span unfortunately.

  John<o)))<


On 19 February 2014 16:29, <jett07002@...> wrote:
 

PLEASE, bulldog, do not put goldfish in a bowl!   I don't care how big it is, believe me, it's not big enough.  They need a lot of space and nice fresh, clean moving water.


joe t


Group: AquaticLife Message: 55759 From: bulldog_bob_sly Date: 2/20/2014
Subject: Re: Water treatment question
Thanks for the info.  Wanted to start with basic goldfish or other tropical fish and get educated on having a tank.  Never had one before.  Used to have an aquatic frog and hope to have one again in the furture.  Will have more questions I am sure.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55760 From: jett07002 Date: 2/20/2014
Subject: Re: Water treatment question

Hi John,


I know what you meant to say, but maybe not in the way I would say it.   The goldfish in itself is not "dirty".

It's a beautiful fish!  It is just that they are almost constantly looking for food and eating and of course this kind of activity produces a poop production line which has to be cleaned just as it would in any other environment.

Just my two cents, if you will.   I just think that perhaps a mother will see the words "dirty fish" and hesitate to get them for a child picturing a mess of a job.


joe t

Group: AquaticLife Message: 55761 From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c Date: 2/20/2014
Subject: Re: Water treatment question
Goldfish are not tropical, they are cold water fish.  Goldfish are also one of the harder species of fish to keep because of their extremely high waste output and need for large aquariums and frequent water changes.  Something else to consider when seeking your fish is their lifespan.  Goldfish are a very long term commitment.  "Basic" goldfish, aka comet goldfish have a lifespan of 25+ yrs. 

While goldfish have long been considered "starter fish" they are not a good beginner fish to learn from.  If you can let us know what size aquarium you intend to start with we can suggest more appropriate fish to help you get started as you learn.  If you plan to start with a bowl there are VERY FEW fish options available that would be suited to a bowl environment and they would still need some type of heater and/or aeration even if you did daily water changes.  The only humane use for a fish bowl really is a fake/plastic fish.

Dawn
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55762 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 2/20/2014
Subject: Re: Water treatment question
Hi Joe,

  You are right, I didn't mean 'dirty' in that way! I have 3 lovely male Comets & I have to do large & frequent water changes to keep pace with their output. I completely agree with Dawn's comments & in that way perhaps it is a good thing if a mother hesitated to get Goldfish for her kids-they really are quite demanding in terms of maintenance & the bigger they get the more maintenance [& space] they require to reach their full potential.

For beginners I think you could do a lot worse than a small tropical community tank, relatively easy to look after-smaller water changes & the fish will not grow anything like Goldfish in size.

  John<o)))<


On 20 February 2014 13:23, <jett07002@...> wrote:
 

Hi John,


I know what you meant to say, but maybe not in the way I would say it.   The goldfish in itself is not "dirty".

It's a beautiful fish!  It is just that they are almost constantly looking for food and eating and of course this kind of activity produces a poop production line which has to be cleaned just as it would in any other environment.

Just my two cents, if you will.   I just think that perhaps a mother will see the words "dirty fish" and hesitate to get them for a child picturing a mess of a job.


joe t


Group: AquaticLife Message: 55763 From: jett07002 Date: 2/21/2014
Subject: Re: Water treatment question

Agree wholeheartedly with what Dawn and you have said this post.


joe t

Group: AquaticLife Message: 55764 From: Lisa Lawless Date: 2/22/2014
Subject: Re: Breeding fancy guppies
Am i better off then to start with just a few? like say 3 males to 9 females? cause i don't want to overcrowd the tank either. Also would i risk inbreeding if i don't remove the fry once they're big enough?
 
How much of an issue would inbreeding present? would the resulting fry become infertie?
 
Lisa
 
 
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55765 From: o1bigtenor Date: 2/22/2014
Subject: Re: Breeding fancy guppies



On Wed, Feb 5, 2014 at 10:21 PM, Lisa Lawless <lisa_lawless2004@...> wrote:


Am i better off then to start with just a few? like say 3 males to 9 females? cause i don't want to overcrowd the tank either. Also would i risk inbreeding if i don't remove the fry once they're big enough?
 
How much of an issue would inbreeding present? would the resulting fry become infertie?

Not a pro here but lots and lots of time with animal breeding and genetics so here goes.

You are not asking perhaps the question that you need to start with.

1. What do I want for results?

If the answer is a tank with a beautiful school of guppies - - - then you have lots of options.

If the answer is something like - - - I want to develop some real neat looking fish (that are replicatable) then you have only a very small number of options (IMHO). Now you need detailed records of which male was with which female (and the results) and a whole heaping big pile of other records which let you say with great conviction (and a whole pile of evidence) 'this is how I developed this wonderful coloration package'. (You will also need a lot more equipment than with the 'simple' option.)

There are options between these two extremes but your answer to the question is the first thing you need to work on. (The questions of finances and opportunity have been ignored at this point.)

Dee
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55766 From: Enid Rodriguez Date: 2/22/2014
Subject: Re: Breeding fancy guppies
How big is this tank? 9 females seem like a lot because a single female can and will produce more than 20 fry at a hit (20 being a conservative number). I would go with a trio. My biggest inbreeding thing is when you start getting "blonde" guppies; they have normal coloration except the body doesn't have the normal base color, they are yellow. Do you have an outlet for your guppies? Otherwise this will lead to MTS (multiple tank syndrome). Been there. Otherwise enjoy it. Lots of people think that livebearers are for beginners only but they are my first love. Just buy your seed stock from a good source.
Enid


On Saturday, February 22, 2014 12:10 PM, o1bigtenor <o1bigtenor@...> wrote:
 



On Wed, Feb 5, 2014 at 10:21 PM, Lisa Lawless <lisa_lawless2004@...> wrote:


Am i better off then to start with just a few? like say 3 males to 9 females? cause i don't want to overcrowd the tank either. Also would i risk inbreeding if i don't remove the fry once they're big enough?
 
How much of an issue would inbreeding present? would the resulting fry become infertie?

Not a pro here but lots and lots of time with animal breeding and genetics so here goes.

You are not asking perhaps the question that you need to start with.

1. What do I want for results?

If the answer is a tank with a beautiful school of guppies - - - then you have lots of options.

If the answer is something like - - - I want to develop some real neat looking fish (that are replicatable) then you have only a very small number of options (IMHO). Now you need detailed records of which male was with which female (and the results) and a whole heaping big pile of other records which let you say with great conviction (and a whole pile of evidence) 'this is how I developed this wonderful coloration package'. (You will also need a lot more equipment than with the 'simple' option.)

There are options between these two extremes but your answer to the question is the first thing you need to work on. (The questions of finances and opportunity have been ignored at this point.)

Dee


Group: AquaticLife Message: 55767 From: Mothermastiff Date: 2/23/2014
Subject: OMG, Java moss EVERYWHERE!
I set up this 55 gal almost a year ago when I put a house on my little farm.  It has a school of guppies plus a catfish or two in it, because not only did I move, but I spent most of the past year having surgeries and recovering from them.   Had to keep it brainlessly simple when I could not do much.

I wanted the tank to get established well before getting a pair or two of discus (not to breed, just as pretty pets).  The discus are my goal once the tank and I are both in good shape. 

Guppies are cheap and easily replaced if anything went wrong with getting the tank stabilized.  Although they have some parasite that makes them dangle trails of poo.  A better food has helped, but not completely cured this.

We are on a well in north Florida and the pH is 8.0-8.5.  Which I have heard from local aquarists that discus can live in for years, but not reproduce in.

The plants I bought on eBay are mostly forms of Java fern (primarily my favorite, Windelov) because this is a simple low-light setup.  Two 48" CoraLife fluorescent bulbs.  An ordinary pet store filter.  A pet store heater set to 72F.

I wanted a little duckweed because guppies like to hang out in the roots.  So a friend gave me some from his overgrown swimming pool here in north Florida.  HUGE mistake.

If I am capable of learning from my mistakes, I must have a LOT to learn.

Since bringing home a tablespoon of duckweed from that elderly friend, I now have superfine Java moss clinging to the bases and stems of every plant in the 60 g tank.  Pretty soon, it is going to take over and completely fill the entire tank!!!  And then crawl out and cover my kitchen counters (the tank is on the kitchen island).

The Windex fish (pleco?) who keeps the glass pretty clean ignores the moss.  The mutt "jaguar" catfish only cleans up excess fish food and mostly hides in a tank ornament since he lost an eye.  

Is there a kind of fish that prefers Java moss for its primary diet?

I feel sick.  It has taken a year for the Windelov to make new 2" tall plants all over the tank, and this miserable moss stuff seems to be covering and hiding it. The moss is so fine, I can't imagine how to get it out of all those baby Windelov plants and not have it grow back.

What can I do to kill all of this horrible stuff without harming my baby Windelovs or my fish?

I have not put it in the tank yet, but recently got a UV filter.  Will that help?

How can I get RID of this fast spreading menace?

Being free of cancer is like, well, being FREE.

On with LIFE!

laurie (Mother Mastiff)
Silk Hope fiber farm, N FL
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55768 From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c Date: 2/23/2014
Subject: Re: Breeding fancy guppies
Lisa,
Inbreeding can become a huge issue.  Fry will breed with each other as well as their parent fish.  Inbred fry tend to have much weaker immune systems as well as genetic problems that can range from deformed fins to deformed bodies.  Infertility would be the least of the problems and is not as common as deformed body parts (including organs) and the problem with immune system.

It might seem difficult to over crowd an 80 gallon tank with something as small as guppies, but it can happen rather quickly.  My last bout of breeding livebearers left me with an overcrowded 90 gallon tank within about 3 - 4 months, and only fry were in that tank.  I started with 4 females and selectively bred them, so males/females were kept apart until I was ready to pair them for 48 hrs, then separated again. 

Each female can have 30+ fry every 30 days.  If the tank is not heavily decorated and even 1/2 of those fry survived, that's still 135+ fry every month (considering 9 females).  Females can also retain milt (sperm) in their bodies to fertilize up to 3 spawns without a male present, which is something else that should be considered.  Guppy fry are capable of breeding by about 12 wks of age and most pet stores won't take livebearers younger than 8 wks (at minimum).  That is something you should discuss and plan for before you start breeding.  Having a reliable outlet before you get started is important.  I would suggest at least 3 tanks total if planning to breed livebearers.  1 tank for the adults, 1 tank for male fry, and 1 tank for female fry.  Fry can usually be sexed by 6 - 8 wks of age.  Also something else to be aware of is that freshwater livebearers such as guppies, mollys, platys, and swordtails have the same ability that saltwater clownfish do... they have the ability to change sex.  With the saltwater clownfish it is males who have the ability to turn female if there are multiple males with no female present.  With the freshwater livebearers it is the opposite, females have the ability to turn male if there are multiple females with no male present.  The good news is that once they are male they stay male.  I mention this so that you are aware to watch over your female fry tank carefully and remove any that turn male as they age, to avoid inbreeding. 
If at any point you choose to stop breeding but wish to retain the adults, you will want to watch the females for this as well, and then just keep them separated.  Whenever someone wishes to keep livebearers without the breeding issues I always suggest seeking out all males rather than females for this reason.  All males in a tank can live peacefully together long term provided there is enough decor to help avoid aggression. 

Lastly, it's important to remember that any female brought home from a mixed sex tank, be it pet store or breeder, is likely to be pregnant and can produce fry for up to 3 months without being exposed to a male.  Being prepared for this right from the start will help avoid unexpected problems.

Dawn 
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55769 From: jett07002 Date: 2/24/2014
Subject: Re: Breeding fancy guppies

Thank you, Dawn, you're a wealth of knowledge.   I was going to respond, also, until I read your  post and you said all I would have said, except if Lisa is going to breed to sell, she is going to need many more tanks than three.   I am sure you know this, but I just thought I'd mention it. 

  I am not trying to discourage, but as you said, one should have a good understanding of what kind of project they are starting.


joe t

Group: AquaticLife Message: 55770 From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c Date: 2/24/2014
Subject: Re: OMG, Java moss EVERYWHERE!
Can you post a photo in an album please?  I am suspecting based on your description, that what you're dealing with isn't moss at all, but rather a species of hair algae... but I would need to see a photo of it before I can confirm this for you. 

Dawn
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55771 From: Amber Date: 2/24/2014
Subject: Re: OMG, Java moss EVERYWHERE!
Are you sure it's java moss or is it black beard algae? BBA is hard to get rid of, the only thing that can help keep it in control is very regular water changes to lower the nitrates so that it doesn't have as much nutrients to feed it. Flourish excel will also help kill off algae, but not 100%. Java moss is very course and looks like moss you would find growing on rocks near rivers/streams. BBA is soft almost like really thick greenish/black hair, in the sunlight it can almost look red too. 

Amber

On Sun, 23 Feb 2014 02:11:05 -0900, Mothermastiff <mother@...> wrote:

 
I set up this 55 gal almost a year ago when I put a house on my little farm.  It has a school of guppies plus a catfish or two in it, because not only did I move, but I spent most of the past year having surgeries and recovering from them.   Had to keep it brainlessly simple when I could not do much.

I wanted the tank to get established well before getting a pair or two of discus (not to breed, just as pretty pets).  The discus are my goal once the tank and I are both in good shape. 

Guppies are cheap and easily replaced if anything went wrong with getting the tank stabilized.  Although they have some parasite that makes them dangle trails of poo.  A better food has helped, but not completely cured this.

We are on a well in north Florida and the pH is 8.0-8.5.  Which I have heard from local aquarists that discus can live in for years, but not reproduce in.

The plants I bought on eBay are mostly forms of Java fern (primarily my favorite, Windelov) because this is a simple low-light setup.  Two 48" CoraLife fluorescent bulbs.  An ordinary pet store filter.  A pet store heater set to 72F.

I wanted a little duckweed because guppies like to hang out in the roots.  So a friend gave me some from his overgrown swimming pool here in north Florida.  HUGE mistake.

If I am capable of learning from my mistakes, I must have a LOT to learn.

Since bringing home a tablespoon of duckweed from that elderly friend, I now have superfine Java moss clinging to the bases and stems of every plant in the 60 g tank.  Pretty soon, it is going to take over and completely fill the entire tank!!!  And then crawl out and cover my kitchen counters (the tank is on the kitchen island).

The Windex fish (pleco?) who keeps the glass pretty clean ignores the moss.  The mutt "jaguar" catfish only cleans up excess fish food and mostly hides in a tank ornament since he lost an eye.  

Is there a kind of fish that prefers Java moss for its primary diet?

I feel sick.  It has taken a year for the Windelov to make new 2" tall plants all over the tank, and this miserable moss stuff seems to be covering and hiding it. The moss is so fine, I can't imagine how to get it out of all those baby Windelov plants and not have it grow back.

What can I do to kill all of this horrible stuff without harming my baby Windelovs or my fish?

I have not put it in the tank yet, but recently got a UV filter.  Will that help?

How can I get RID of this fast spreading menace?

Being free of cancer is like, well, being FREE.

On with LIFE!

laurie (Mother Mastiff)
Silk Hope fiber farm, N FL



--
Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55772 From: fish_go_illini Date: 2/25/2014
Subject: Sprin Auction / Tri County Tropical Fish Society
Hello all,
If you are in the Midwest (USA) (IL IN IA MO) I would like to invite you to attend the event listed below.
TRI-COUNTY TROPICAL FISH SOCIETY AUCTION (Peoria IL Club)
Saturday, March 22, 2014
American Legion Hall, 4501 Airport Road, Bartonville, IL 61607
Doors open 9:00 A.M.
Auction starts 10:30 A.M.

Fish, plants, food, equipment, books, etc may be offer for sale.
More info can be found at the link below
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/tctfs/info
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55773 From: luvnpeas99 Date: 2/27/2014
Subject: No feeding, nowater changing
How about a 10 gallon tank with a jungle of aquatic plants and 4 vegetarian fish like guppies?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55774 From: deenerzz Date: 2/27/2014
Subject: Re: No feeding, nowater changing
I don't think Guppies are vegetarian.  Pretty sure most fish are omnivorous to some degree. Even plecos will nosh on a dead fish given a chance.(I know there are many kinds of plecos and some have it as part of their diet, just using this as an example as most people people they strictly eat veggies)
Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: luvnpeas99 <luvnpeas99@...>
To: AquaticLife <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thu, Feb 27, 2014 4:46 pm
Subject: [AquaticLife] No feeding, nowater changing

 
How about a 10 gallon tank with a jungle of aquatic plants and 4 vegetarian fish like guppies?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55775 From: megablasto2000 Date: 2/27/2014
Subject: any way to speed up tank cycling?
Trying to cycle a 5 gallon so I can rehome one of my goldfish. been two weeks and ammonia uptake still pretty much the same as when starting. I bought this bacteria supplement from a French company called Prodibio. Comes in little sealed glass ampules, and has nitrogen or argon replacing the oxygen inside. But even though it says it's good for up to 15 gallon tank, doesnt seem like it did a damn thing. Comments? -Ken B.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55776 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 2/28/2014
Subject: Re: any way to speed up tank cycling?
Hi Ken,

I can't comment on that product specifically as I have never used it but my experience over the  few years I've been doing this hobby is generally there are no easy short-cuts or quick fixes. All of the 'magic' products in the  fish store that tell you they do this & that are a waste of time & money-you need to do everything the long way round to ensure it all works properly & even when they do anything there is almost always a trade-off in that you add more unwanted chemicals to your tank.

Pre-planned cycling of another tank when you already have an established one up & running shouldn't be a problem as you simply run an additional filter in your established tank for a few weeks & then transfer it to the new tank & you have an instant established tank as the new filter will have been 'seeded' with the good bacteria during it's temporary time in the original tank. Then there is always the fishless cycle method adding raw ammonia to the new tank to replicate organic waste & so force the production of the good bacteria in the filter but this will take some time possibly 2-6 weeks. There are many websites detailing this method online.

What does concern me is you saying about using a 5 gallon tank for a Goldfish-that is way too small as Goldfish produce a lot of waste which drives the oxygen out of the water & you need the dilution of larger tanks so the fish don't suffocate. You would need at least a 25-30 gallon with a big filter for one fancy fish just for starters & then you will need to upgrade as the fish grows. If your fish is a streamlined Common or Comet type then I would suggest at least double the size for fancy types & again you will need to further upgrade as they grow & you would be constantly doing water changes & checking the parameters. Even when you have cycled a 5 gallon tank a Goldfish will pollute it in less than a day so you will have your work cut out. The larger you go tank-wise with Goldfish the less work you have to do yourself as it is all about the amount of dilution of their waste. For example imagine that same fish in a 100 gallon tank-it would still be producing the same amount of waste but the time it would take to pollute the 100 gallon would be far more than the time it took to pollute 5.

  John<o)))<




On 28 February 2014 02:16, <megablasto2000@...> wrote:
 

Trying to cycle a 5 gallon so I can rehome one of my goldfish. been two weeks and ammonia uptake still pretty much the same as when starting. I bought this bacteria supplement from a French company called Prodibio. Comes in little sealed glass ampules, and has nitrogen or argon replacing the oxygen inside. But even though it says it's good for up to 15 gallon tank, doesnt seem like it did a damn thing. Comments? -Ken B.


Group: AquaticLife Message: 55777 From: sevenspringss Date: 2/28/2014
Subject: Re: any way to speed up tank cycling?
AOL Email
Hi Ken,
 
With your French Prodibio product being sealed under nitrogen and argon, it would appear as though this bacteria "supplement" is probably a culture of heterotrophic anaerobic bacteria -- and facultative anaerobes to boot -- rather than the autotrophic aerobic nitrobacters you need to start your cycle right from the beginning.
 
Heterotrophic bacteria are those that require an organic substrate -- they cannot synthesize their own food, as autotrophic bacteria do, so they use organic carbon as a food source (they colonize dead organic matter).  Additionally, many of these bacteria are facultative, having the option to grow with or without oxygen -- they don't necessarily need oxygen to survive -- and the fact that they are anaerobic shows this (anaerobes do not require oxygen).  As this Prodibio has nitrogen and argon replacing the oxygen in its glass ampules, it would seem that these bacteria are indeed facultative; this group includes some Pseudomonas, Escherichia and Bacillus.  Heterotrophs break down (putrify/rot) more complex organic matter to obtain the carbon they need as food; they can't use ammonia as a food. 
 
As they break down organic matter, they produce hydrogen and methane gases, but at this same time, they produce ammonia needed for nitrobacters (nitrifying bacteria) as food.  Until enough ammonia is produced by these heterotrophs, there's a long delay before the autotrophs (in this case, the nitrobacters) start multiplying.  That there's now apparently ammonia available, as I'm gathering from your message, they should be multiplying now, but it's not as though you initially started with nitrobacter cultures.  While heterotrophs will double their population within minutes, it take about 24 hours for autotrophs such as these nitrobacters we need to double their populations -- a vast difference in growth rates, and the reason why your nitrobacters are just getting started. 
 
On the other hand, the autotrophic bacteria we need in the form of nitrobacters, which are actually chemoautotrophs, are able to synthesis their own food from organic wastes (in this case, simple inorganic compounds like ammonium or ammonia), needing only carbon dioxide or carbonates to oxidize them.  As they do oxidize their food (ammonia), they require oxygen to perform this task and to survive.  While a small portion of this oxygen is to be found in the carbon dioxide and/or carbonates, they need a larger additional source of oxygen as a gas to first break these compounds down.   That your bacteria were not sealed with oxygen -- nor even just atmospheric gases -- precludes them from being nitrobacters.  As nitrobacters are aerobic, this indicates that they need oxygen in their environment. 
 
I probably answered more than you were looking for as a reply, but thought that this might be more understandable when being presented with the whole picture.  There ARE nitrobacter cultures available for use in starting a nitrogen cycle from the day you add it to your aquarium.  Most notably, as the most beneficial of these additives, is "Dr. Tim's One and Only, " developed by Dr. Timothy Hovanec.  Dr. Hovanec was the Chief Science Officer of Aquaria, Inc (parent company of Marineland, Inc.), where he developed the first true (& reliable) aquarium nitrobacter additive called "Bio-Spira."  He since started his own company -- Dr. Tim's Aquatics -- and improved this product which is now marketed as the one I stated (" . . . One and Only") above.  You're money would have been better utilize if you'd have bought this product instead, as fiwsh can be added to the tank immediately when using this product.
 
NOW, I need to bring to your attention, that unless your intention of placing this goldfish in a 5 gallon tank is a very temporary move, this fish should not reside in this tank for very long as it will need much more room to grow.  As has been stated here so very many times, while some hobbyists do keep goldfish in aquariums -- VERY large ones -- these fish are actually pond fish and do much better in that environment.  Still, they may be kept in tanks, but as Common and Comet (straight bodied long-tail versions) Goldfish will grow to about 14" long, I hope you can see that a 5 gallon tank will not fit their needs for long.  To keep them in such a small tank for very long is to stunt them, compromising their health.
 
Ray
      
 
In a message dated 2/27/2014 9:29:07 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, megablasto2000@... writes:
 

Trying to cycle a 5 gallon so I can rehome one of my goldfish. been two weeks and ammonia uptake still pretty much the same as when starting. I bought this bacteria supplement from a French company called Prodibio. Comes in little sealed glass ampules, and has nitrogen or argon replacing the oxygen inside. But even though it says it's good for up to 15 gallon tank, doesnt seem like it did a damn thing. Comments? -Ken B.

Group: AquaticLife Message: 55778 From: sevenspringss Date: 2/28/2014
Subject: Re: any way to speed up tank cycling?
AOL Email
Ken,
 
I left one seemingly small but important fact out that I intended to include in my original message.  While Dr. Timothy Hovanec was the Chief Science Officer of Aquaria Inc./ Marineland, Inc., he held that position at this facility for 17 years, indicating his exceptional prowess in this field.  
 
Ray
 
 
In a message dated 2/28/2014 6:36:16 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, sevenspringss1@... writes:
 

Hi Ken,
 
With your French Prodibio product being sealed under nitrogen and argon, it would appear as though this bacteria "supplement" is probably a culture of heterotrophic anaerobic bacteria -- and facultative anaerobes to boot -- rather than the autotrophic aerobic nitrobacters you need to start your cycle right from the beginning.
 
Heterotrophic bacteria are those that require an organic substrate -- they cannot synthesize their own food, as autotrophic bacteria do, so they use organic carbon as a food source (they colonize dead organic matter).  Additionally, many of these bacteria are facultative, having the option to grow with or without oxygen -- they don't necessarily need oxygen to survive -- and the fact that they are anaerobic shows this (anaerobes do not require oxygen).  As this Prodibio has nitrogen and argon replacing the oxygen in its glass ampules, it would seem that these bacteria are indeed facultative; this group includes some Pseudomonas, Escherichia and Bacillus.  Heterotrophs break down (putrify/rot) more complex organic matter to obtain the carbon they need as food; they can't use ammonia as a food. 
 
As they break down organic matter, they produce hydrogen and methane gases, but at this same time, they produce ammonia needed for nitrobacters (nitrifying bacteria) as food.  Until enough ammonia is produced by these heterotrophs, there's a long delay before the autotrophs (in this case, the nitrobacters) start multiplying.  That there's now apparently ammonia available, as I'm gathering from your message, they should be multiplying now, but it's not as though you initially started with nitrobacter cultures.  While heterotrophs will double their population within minutes, it take about 24 hours for autotrophs such as these nitrobacters we need to double their populations -- a vast difference in growth rates, and the reason why your nitrobacters are just getting started. 
 
On the other hand, the autotrophic bacteria we need in the form of nitrobacters, which are actually chemoautotrophs, are able to synthesis their own food from organic wastes (in this case, simple inorganic compounds like ammonium or ammonia), needing only carbon dioxide or carbonates to oxidize them.  As they do oxidize their food (ammonia), they require oxygen to perform this task and to survive.  While a small portion of this oxygen is to be found in the carbon dioxide and/or carbonates, they need a larger additional source of oxygen as a gas to first break these compounds down.   That your bacteria were not sealed with oxygen -- nor even just atmospheric gases -- precludes them from being nitrobacters.  As nitrobacters are aerobic, this indicates that they need oxygen in their environment. 
 
I probably answered more than you were looking for as a reply, but thought that this might be more understandable when being presented with the whole picture.  There ARE nitrobacter cultures available for use in starting a nitrogen cycle from the day you add it to your aquarium.  Most notably, as the most beneficial of these additives, is "Dr. Tim's One and Only, " developed by Dr. Timothy Hovanec.  Dr. Hovanec was the Chief Science Officer of Aquaria, Inc (parent company of Marineland, Inc.), where he developed the first true (& reliable) aquarium nitrobacter additive called "Bio-Spira."  He since started his own company -- Dr. Tim's Aquatics -- and improved this product which is now marketed as the one I stated (" . . . One and Only") above.  You're money would have been better utilize if you'd have bought this product instead, as fiwsh can be added to the tank immediately when using this product.
 
NOW, I need to bring to your attention, that unless your intention of placing this goldfish in a 5 gallon tank is a very temporary move, this fish should not reside in this tank for very long as it will need much more room to grow.  As has been stated here so very many times, while some hobbyists do keep goldfish in aquariums -- VERY large ones -- these fish are actually pond fish and do much better in that environment.  Still, they may be kept in tanks, but as Common and Comet (straight bodied long-tail versions) Goldfish will grow to about 14" long, I hope you can see that a 5 gallon tank will not fit their needs for long.  To keep them in such a small tank for very long is to stunt them, compromising their health.
 
Ray
      
 
In a message dated 2/27/2014 9:29:07 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, megablasto2000@... writes:
 

Trying to cycle a 5 gallon so I can rehome one of my goldfish. been two weeks and ammonia uptake still pretty much the same as when starting. I bought this bacteria supplement from a French company called Prodibio. Comes in little sealed glass ampules, and has nitrogen or argon replacing the oxygen inside. But even though it says it's good for up to 15 gallon tank, doesnt seem like it did a damn thing. Comments? -Ken B.

Group: AquaticLife Message: 55779 From: Mothermastiff Date: 2/28/2014
Subject: "Moss" is probably algae - more problems
The moss I complained about and asked here for help with is superfine bright green strands, finer than hair.  Can't see any black.  Must be algae.

I had a bottle of Flourish Excel, so when someone here said it might help against algae, I read the bottle and put some in the tank.

All my pet fish were dead the next morning,  even the big old hybrid "jaguar" cat who had survived incredible disaster, and all my pregnant guppies with the pretty colors (I found some where the females also had big colored fins but they can't get any more).

The Flourish Excel did not seem to make a dent in the algae.

With the fish all gone, I am free to use more drastic methods of killing the algae.

So what is the most effective way to kill the superfine algae?

Then what do I do so the tank is healthy for fish again?

A tank with no fish is a sad and lonely sight.


Being free of cancer is like, well, being FREE.

On with LIFE!

laurie (Mother Mastiff)
Silk Hope fiber farm, N FL
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55780 From: Amber Date: 2/28/2014
Subject: Re: "Moss" is probably algae - more problems
I'm so sorry for your fish losses :( I've never had Flourish Excel harm any of my fish, even when I use it in higher dosages than what is recommended on the bottle.
Did you do a water change first before adding the flourish?

And yes what you're describing sounds like hair algae, it's growing from an excess of nitrates in your water. Taking everything out and washing it in vinegar and rinsing really well should clean it all. You could also use bleach, but make sure to rinse everything extra well.

Have you already described your regular tank maintenance for everyone? How often do you clean the filters (and how), and how often do you clean the gravel and do water changes? This will help us figure out what the main cause of the algae was.

Amber

On Fri, 28 Feb 2014 02:52:25 -0900, Mothermastiff <mother@...> wrote:

 
The moss I complained about and asked here for help with is superfine bright green strands, finer than hair.  Can't see any black.  Must be algae.

I had a bottle of Flourish Excel, so when someone here said it might help against algae, I read the bottle and put some in the tank.

All my pet fish were dead the next morning,  even the big old hybrid "jaguar" cat who had survived incredible disaster, and all my pregnant guppies with the pretty colors (I found some where the females also had big colored fins but they can't get any more).

The Flourish Excel did not seem to make a dent in the algae.

With the fish all gone, I am free to use more drastic methods of killing the algae.

So what is the most effective way to kill the superfine algae?

Then what do I do so the tank is healthy for fish again?

A tank with no fish is a sad and lonely sight.


Being free of cancer is like, well, being FREE.

On with LIFE!

laurie (Mother Mastiff)
Silk Hope fiber farm, N FL



--
Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55781 From: ptimlin Date: 2/28/2014
Subject: Re: No feeding, nowater changing
I have a tank like this in my bedroom. 10 gallon with misc Crypt and Java fern plants plus a buttload (that's a technical term ;) of Java Moss that every few months I have to clear out about half. There are just common guppies in there which breed freely, so the only way you could only have a few of them is to limit them to one sex and if you pick female, hope none of them arrive already having been mated. It is a very low maintenance tank.

That said, while when I am have been slacking off on water changed, I will tend to let this tank go longer than others. But I wouldn't consider this a self contained environment that can go with ZERO water changes. Plus it is only 10 gallons, so you only need one smallish bucket or a couple of jugs to quickly do a 20% water change which takes all of 5-8 minutes or so.

But I do highly recommend a simple low maintenance tank like this. It can be just as satisfying as more "advanced" tanks in in some ways more so since a well set up one can run for years problem free without much work.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55782 From: luvnpeas99 Date: 2/28/2014
Subject: Re: No feeding, nowater changing
And, no feeding? Do you need snails for algae control?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55783 From: ptimlin Date: 3/1/2014
Subject: Re: No feeding, nowater changing
Oh I do feed them, just not a ton especially in the winter as the tank is unheated and the room is cool in the winter. Because the tank is so low maintenance, I get very little algae in it. So about once every 4 months or so I will clean the inside of the front glass, but that it about it.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55784 From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c Date: 3/3/2014
Subject: Re: No feeding, nowater changing
How would you replenish mineral content in a tank with plants & animals and no water changes?  And yes, as Mike pointed out, guppies are omnivore.  They need a source of protein even if it isn't a lot.

Dawn
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55785 From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c Date: 3/3/2014
Subject: Re: "Moss" is probably algae - more problems
What you are describing sounds like a species of filamentous hair algae that I know well... I battle it in 3 of my tanks most of every yr.  I disagree with Amber about it being nitrate fed, or at least not primarily.  The highest nitrate reading I have in any of my tanks is 10 and this stuff grows like the plague and it spreads fast.  I know it is partially phosphate fed.  It gets out of control anytime our weather changes to any kind of extreme, most especially in early spring and again in late fall, when the farmers are all fertilizing the fields.  I have tested and tracked the rise and fall of phosphate in my tap water at these times of the yr and it plays a huge role in the hair algae growth.  I also know that this type of algae is largely photosynthetic, meaning it feeds on light.  In one of my 215 gallon tanks where it grows, only the brightly lit areas of the tank get this type of hair algae.  The areas that are shaded/lower light never grow a strand of it.  Bristlenose plecos and snails don't eat it, either. 
I have had good luck with the Flourish Excel in controlling it, but if I miss a single dose it grows back and out of control overnight.  I know my tap water has an excess of some form of iron in it, and I suspect this also contributes to the problem.  I would need access to a mass spectrometer to confirm my suspicions, and properly identify the form of iron I'm dealing with, but I am positive it is iron.  I have a filtration unit hooked up on the household plumbing and whenever we change the cartridges they are a dark rusty iron color, so no questions there.  I also have very hard water, pH of 8.5 - 8.6 straight from the tap. 

I'm sorry to hear you lost your fish, but it's not likely that the Flourish Excel killed them, even if you slightly overdosed it.  (it would take a large overdose to affect the fish)  It is more likely an imbalance in your water chemistry somewhere, and the F.E. probably pushed it over the edge. 
I agree with Amber's suggestion of bleaching your tank to clean it.  That would be the most effective way to sterilize it.  If there are no fish or live plants (other than the hair algae) in the tank, you can simply add the bleach directly to the tank water and allow the filter and heater to remain on, and let it run this way for 24 - 48 hrs.  This will clean/sterilize all of the filter parts and the heater as well as the tank and substrate.  If I knew what size tank this was I could suggest a proper dose of bleach. 
After bleaching, empty the tank, rinse everything (remove and rinse all gravel or replace gravel), disassemble the filter to rinse each part, and then let everything completely air dry for at least 72 hrs.  Once dry, another rinse to make sure there is no odor of bleach, and then it is safe to set it all back up.  If you still smell bleach at this time, rinse good again and let air dry again before using. 

While bleaching everything will initially kill off the algae, there is a good chance that once you set the tank back up again, the algae problem will return.  Algae spores are everywhere... in the air, on our clothing and skin and hair, etc.  All it takes is 1 spore to start an algae issue, so long as the algae finds food, light, and water, it will grow.  Plants such as duckweed and pond plants contribute to this type of algae growth.  From what I have found over the past few yrs of studying this stuff, it smothers the plants, especially those that rely heavily on photosynthesis to grow, and then feeds on the dying plant matter, which would provide ammonia and organic compounds. 

I have tracked the algae via microscope from just before dosing with the F.E. and then daily for up to 2 wks after I see the algae die back, so I can see what effects the F.E has on the hair algae that cause it to die.  The F.E. breaks down the cell walls within the strands of algae and over the course of days, it depletes the strands of all photosynthetic matter.  It takes long term and regular use to keep this stuff at bay via the F.E. but it does work.  Overdosing the F.E is pointless, as it still takes days to do it's job, and adding a stronger dose doesn't change how it works or how quickly it will do it's job or how effective the outcome.  I have introduced the F.E directly to the strands of hair algae and watched for up to an hour at a time to see the reactions via microscope, and even direct contact without diluting with water doesn't speed up the process.  Good circulation in the tank is also important. 

Dawn
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55786 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 3/3/2014
Subject: Re: "Moss" is probably algae - more problems
Hi Dawn,

  That's an interesting observation about the phosphates contributing to growth of hair algae-something I'd never considered before & also how at certain times of the year when the weather is extreme or farmers are fertilising the fields although I have not noticed any particular spurts of growth but I will take note from now on. It's not a great problem in my tank as I regularly clean the back & sides also the planters from time to time but I do have it growing all over the bogwood arch which is a bit unsightly.

  John<o)))<


On 3 March 2014 18:51, <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote:
 

What you are describing sounds like a species of filamentous hair algae that I know well... I battle it in 3 of my tanks most of every yr.  I disagree with Amber about it being nitrate fed, or at least not primarily.  The highest nitrate reading I have in any of my tanks is 10 and this stuff grows like the plague and it spreads fast.  I know it is partially phosphate fed.  It gets out of control anytime our weather changes to any kind of extreme, most especially in early spring and again in late fall, when the farmers are all fertilizing the fields.  I have tested and tracked the rise and fall of phosphate in my tap water at these times of the yr and it plays a huge role in the hair algae growth.  I also know that this type of algae is largely photosynthetic, meaning it feeds on light.  In one of my 215 gallon tanks where it grows, only the brightly lit areas of the tank get this type of hair algae.  The areas that are shaded/lower light never grow a strand of it.  Bristlenose plecos and snails don't eat it, either. 
I have had good luck with the Flourish Excel in controlling it, but if I miss a single dose it grows back and out of control overnight.  I know my tap water has an excess of some form of iron in it, and I suspect this also contributes to the problem.  I would need access to a mass spectrometer to confirm my suspicions, and properly identify the form of iron I'm dealing with, but I am positive it is iron.  I have a filtration unit hooked up on the household plumbing and whenever we change the cartridges they are a dark rusty iron color, so no questions there.  I also have very hard water, pH of 8.5 - 8.6 straight from the tap. 

I'm sorry to hear you lost your fish, but it's not likely that the Flourish Excel killed them, even if you slightly overdosed it.  (it would take a large overdose to affect the fish)  It is more likely an imbalance in your water chemistry somewhere, and the F.E. probably pushed it over the edge. 
I agree with Amber's suggestion of bleaching your tank to clean it.  That would be the most effective way to sterilize it.  If there are no fish or live plants (other than the hair algae) in the tank, you can simply add the bleach directly to the tank water and allow the filter and heater to remain on, and let it run this way for 24 - 48 hrs.  This will clean/sterilize all of the filter parts and the heater as well as the tank and substrate.  If I knew what size tank this was I could suggest a proper dose of bleach. 
After bleaching, empty the tank, rinse everything (remove and rinse all gravel or replace gravel), disassemble the filter to rinse each part, and then let everything completely air dry for at least 72 hrs.  Once dry, another rinse to make sure there is no odor of bleach, and then it is safe to set it all back up.  If you still smell bleach at this time, rinse good again and let air dry again before using. 

While bleaching everything will initially kill off the algae, there is a good chance that once you set the tank back up again, the algae problem will return.  Algae spores are everywhere... in the air, on our clothing and skin and hair, etc.  All it takes is 1 spore to start an algae issue, so long as the algae finds food, light, and water, it will grow.  Plants such as duckweed and pond plants contribute to this type of algae growth.  From what I have found over the past few yrs of studying this stuff, it smothers the plants, especially those that rely heavily on photosynthesis to grow, and then feeds on the dying plant matter, which would provide ammonia and organic compounds. 

I have tracked the algae via microscope from just before dosing with the F.E. and then daily for up to 2 wks after I see the algae die back, so I can see what effects the F.E has on the hair algae that cause it to die.  The F.E. breaks down the cell walls within the strands of algae and over the course of days, it depletes the strands of all photosynthetic matter.  It takes long term and regular use to keep this stuff at bay via the F.E. but it does work.  Overdosing the F.E is pointless, as it still takes days to do it's job, and adding a stronger dose doesn't change how it works or how quickly it will do it's job or how effective the outcome.  I have introduced the F.E directly to the strands of hair algae and watched for up to an hour at a time to see the reactions via microscope, and even direct contact without diluting with water doesn't speed up the process.  Good circulation in the tank is also important. 

Dawn


Group: AquaticLife Message: 55787 From: Ben Sharvy Date: 3/3/2014
Subject: Re: No feeding, nowater changing
Minerals don't go anywhere.

Omnivores can subsist on a vegetarian diet.
 
--
"An eye for an eye" makes the whole world blind.


On Monday, March 3, 2014 10:21 AM, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c@..." <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote:
 
How would you replenish mineral content in a tank with plants & animals and no water changes?  And yes, as Mike pointed out, guppies are omnivore.  They need a source of protein even if it isn't a lot.

Dawn


Group: AquaticLife Message: 55788 From: deenerzz Date: 3/3/2014
Subject: Re: No feeding, nowater changing
Which Omnivores?
 
Even deer have been seen eating meat when their diet is lacking something essential.
 
Mike


-----Original Message-----
From: Ben Sharvy <luvnpeas99@...>
To: AquaticLife <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:03 pm
Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: No feeding, nowater changing

 
Minerals don't go anywhere.

Omnivores can subsist on a vegetarian diet.
 
--
"An eye for an eye" makes the whole world blind.


On Monday, March 3, 2014 10:21 AM, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c@..." <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote:
 
How would you replenish mineral content in a tank with plants & animals and no water changes?  And yes, as Mike pointed out, guppies are omnivore.  They need a source of protein even if it isn't a lot.

Dawn


Group: AquaticLife Message: 55789 From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c Date: 3/4/2014
Subject: Re: No feeding, nowater changing
The minerals don't go anywhere?  Uhm, that is not correct.  The minerals are used by plants and animals alike.  It's the mineral content in the water that helps to control & regulate their organ functions.  So over time, with no water changes, those minerals eventually get depleted.  There are a multitude of things that can happen in a situation such as that... each is different, but it does negatively affect the fish.  In young fish it can lead to deformed body parts, internal as well as external, it can lead to bone deterioration, malnutrition, and issues with organ function leading up to organ failure.  Lack of proper mineral balance can also lead to paralysis.  Then there is the lowered immune system, which makes the fish vulnerable to bacteria, fungus, and protozoans that find their way into the aquarium via the air, so adding new fish is no longer criteria for introducing illness.  It happens "out of nowhere". 

Another issue often found in aquariums with no water changes is a buildup of organic debris.  This can be in the from of fish waste, dead/dying plant matter, and dust that gets into every tank. 

As for feeding an omnivore fish nothing but plant matter, it may not kill them but they won't be healthy.  They will eventually show signs of protein deficiency, and that, too, will affect organ function, brain function, and muscle control.  Malnourished is malnourished, however you look at it. 

I guess I'm having a difficult time understanding why someone would do such a thing?  It's a recipe for disaster for the animals involved and gets to be not a matter of "if" you'll kill the fish but rather how long will it take? 

Dawn 
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55790 From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c Date: 3/4/2014
Subject: Re: "Moss" is probably algae - more problems
John, is there a way you can boil that piece of wood?  Or bake it?  That will kill the hair algae too, and then it will be work, but it can then be brushed off with a toothbrush.  (yes I've done it before, can you tell?  lol)

Dawn
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55791 From: luvnpeas99 Date: 3/4/2014
Subject: Re: No feeding, nowater changing
Conservation of matter = minerals don't go anywhere.

I'm basically asking if one can avoid the need for "divine" (human) intervention with a much higher plant/animal ratio than normal, and careful selecton of fish. If not guppies, then an algae-eater. Deadand fecal  material is recycled into the soil for use by plants, which oxygenate the water, etc. in the classic symbiotic exchange.

Omnivores can be healthy vegetarians. Humans are the obvious example.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55792 From: deenerzz Date: 3/4/2014
Subject: Re: No feeding, nowater changing
Sounds like you are look at a Walstadt tank.
 
 
Careful not to compare Humans/primates to other animals.  Similarities break down and you may end up with sick fish.
 
 


 
-----Original Message-----
From: luvnpeas99 <luvnpeas99@...>
To: AquaticLife <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tue, Mar 4, 2014 1:00 pm
Subject: [AquaticLife] RE: No feeding, nowater changing

 
Conservation of matter = minerals don't go anywhere.

I'm basically asking if one can avoid the need for "divine" (human) intervention with a much higher plant/animal ratio than normal, and careful selecton of fish. If not guppies, then an algae-eater. Deadand fecal  material is recycled into the soil for use by plants, which oxygenate the water, etc. in the classic symbiotic exchange.

Omnivores can be healthy vegetarians. Humans are the obvious example.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55793 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 3/4/2014
Subject: Re: "Moss" is probably algae - more problems
Hi Dawn,

  Thank you-yes I can do either-boiling is probably the best as baking would dry it out & mean I had to soak it again to make it sink? How long do I boil it for? Will it then brush back to the bare wood like when I first got it? That would be nice.

  John<o)))<

 


On 4 March 2014 18:08, <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote:
 

John, is there a way you can boil that piece of wood?  Or bake it?  That will kill the hair algae too, and then it will be work, but it can then be brushed off with a toothbrush.  (yes I've done it before, can you tell?  lol)

Dawn


Group: AquaticLife Message: 55794 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 3/4/2014
Subject: Re: No feeding, nowater changing
I've never heard of this Walstad tank before-looks interesting & I will study it-a tank that needs no maintenence is a great idea although anything that looks too good to be true generally is. I also have trouble with the idea of forcing vegetarianism on animals, we do it by choice-they can't choose if we restrict their natural diet which is cruel.

  John<o)))<


On 4 March 2014 22:21, <Deenerz@...> wrote:
 

Sounds like you are look at a Walstadt tank.
 
 
Careful not to compare Humans/primates to other animals.  Similarities break down and you may end up with sick fish.
 
 


 
-----Original Message-----
From: luvnpeas99 <luvnpeas99@...>
To: AquaticLife <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tue, Mar 4, 2014 1:00 pm
Subject: [AquaticLife] RE: No feeding, nowater changing

 
Conservation of matter = minerals don't go anywhere.

I'm basically asking if one can avoid the need for "divine" (human) intervention with a much higher plant/animal ratio than normal, and careful selecton of fish. If not guppies, then an algae-eater. Deadand fecal  material is recycled into the soil for use by plants, which oxygenate the water, etc. in the classic symbiotic exchange.

Omnivores can be healthy vegetarians. Humans are the obvious example.


Group: AquaticLife Message: 55795 From: deenerzz Date: 3/4/2014
Subject: Re: No feeding, nowater changing
I agree John.
 
I usually feed a pellet or flake that is a mix for "Omnivores" as well as some "alage" wafers for the plecos. There is a well respected fish keeper in my local club, he has been keeping fish for about 40 years and some of his fish are almost that old.  He insists that we should supplement with baby brine or other live protein while fish are fry. He raises a large variety of fish and is very succesful. 
 
 
Our club also has a member that is a Biologist I will ask his opinion on this next week.  He studies tropical fish in the wild as well as raising them and studying their behavior.
 
 
Mike
 



 
-----Original Message-----
From: SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...>
To: AquaticLife <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tue, Mar 4, 2014 5:28 pm
Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: No feeding, nowater changing

 
I've never heard of this Walstad tank before-looks interesting & I will study it-a tank that needs no maintenence is a great idea although anything that looks too good to be true generally is. I also have trouble with the idea of forcing vegetarianism on animals, we do it by choice-they can't choose if we restrict their natural diet which is cruel.

  John<o)))<


On 4 March 2014 22:21, <Deenerz@...> wrote:
 
Sounds like you are look at a Walstadt tank.
 
 
Careful not to compare Humans/primates to other animals.  Similarities break down and you may end up with sick fish.
 
 


 
-----Original Message-----
From: luvnpeas99 <luvnpeas99@...>
To: AquaticLife <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tue, Mar 4, 2014 1:00 pm
Subject: [AquaticLife] RE: No feeding, nowater changing

 
Conservation of matter = minerals don't go anywhere.

I'm basically asking if one can avoid the need for "divine" (human) intervention with a much higher plant/animal ratio than normal, and careful selecton of fish. If not guppies, then an algae-eater. Deadand fecal  material is recycled into the soil for use by plants, which oxygenate the water, etc. in the classic symbiotic exchange.

Omnivores can be healthy vegetarians. Humans are the obvious example.

Group: AquaticLife Message: 55796 From: Mothermastiff Date: 3/4/2014
Subject: Re: "Moss" is probably algae - more problems
The algae is clogging the area where leaves and roots come together in almost all my plants, and then grows in between the plants too.

Two or three years ago, I spent a fortune on plants, mostly my favorite Windelov.  

Back then, something suddenly turned the water murky two days after killing my 3 pair of just-paired discus that I had raised from nickel size.

When I moved, I cleaned the tank (hand washing every leaf of every plant in clean water) and set it up again.  Cycled it for a couple months, then got guppies.  They and Spot the old jaguar cat and a couple of plecos were plenty to deal with when life kept turning upside down.

I was very happy to see so many baby Windelov plants, 2" - 5" tall.  I do adore them and wanted a lot of them, like a jungle.

Two days after the guppies died, the water turned cloudy and looks like there is sludge floating over about 25% of the surface, same as before when the discus died (back then I tested ever parameter of the water and found nothing out of whack.)  

I have not turned the light back on while it was murky, but have to tomorrow because I cannot bear to lose those scads of plants.  I have two 30-gal tanks I want to bring over, and they are bare and really NEED the surplus plants from the 55.

In the move here, my water test kit got mislaid, and money is tight, those are not cheap.

I am using well water in Florida, so the pH is high, 8.0-8.5.  Other folks here use the well water, they only soften it when they want to breed their discus or angels.  The guppies were having babies just fine as recently as last week.

I would miss the plants at least as much as the guppies.  What can I do to save the plants???

Thanks!

Being free of cancer is like, well, being FREE.

On with LIFE!

laurie (Mother Mastiff)
Silk Hope fiber farm, N FL
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55797 From: deenerzz Date: 3/4/2014
Subject: Re: "Moss" is probably algae - more problems
By any chance was the tank itself used to house rodents?  Legend is that the urine settles in the sealer and leaks out continually causing high ammonia levels.
 
Please use caution on this next one.  Some of the planted tank guys in one of my local clubs used to take a syringe of Hydrogen peroxide and inject it directly on the moss to kill it.  Do not just pout it in the tank, but direct contact with the moss. Do not let a fish get near this while doing it. The hydrogen peroxide can harm them if they are close but if they are not near the Hydrogen peroxide it just releases oxygen into the water.
 
 


Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: Mothermastiff <mother@...>
To: AquaticLife <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tue, Mar 4, 2014 7:44 pm
Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: "Moss" is probably algae - more problems

 
The algae is clogging the area where leaves and roots come together in almost all my plants, and then grows in between the plants too.

Two or three years ago, I spent a fortune on plants, mostly my favorite Windelov.  

Back then, something suddenly turned the water murky two days after killing my 3 pair of just-paired discus that I had raised from nickel size.

When I moved, I cleaned the tank (hand washing every leaf of every plant in clean water) and set it up again.  Cycled it for a couple months, then got guppies.  They and Spot the old jaguar cat and a couple of plecos were plenty to deal with when life kept turning upside down.

I was very happy to see so many baby Windelov plants, 2" - 5" tall.  I do adore them and wanted a lot of them, like a jungle.

Two days after the guppies died, the water turned cloudy and looks like there is sludge floating over about 25% of the surface, same as before when the discus died (back then I tested ever parameter of the water and found nothing out of whack.)  

I have not turned the light back on while it was murky, but have to tomorrow because I cannot bear to lose those scads of plants.  I have two 30-gal tanks I want to bring over, and they are bare and really NEED the surplus plants from the 55.

In the move here, my water test kit got mislaid, and money is tight, those are not cheap.

I am using well water in Florida, so the pH is high, 8.0-8.5.  Other folks here use the well water, they only soften it when they want to breed their discus or angels.  The guppies were having babies just fine as recently as last week.

I would miss the plants at least as much as the guppies.  What can I do to save the plants???

Thanks!

Being free of cancer is like, well, being FREE.

On with LIFE!

laurie (Mother Mastiff)
Silk Hope fiber farm, N FL
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55798 From: sevenspringss Date: 3/4/2014
Subject: Re: "Moss" is probably algae - more problems
AOL Email
Hi Laurie,
 
I'm still not sure exactly what kind of algae you have, although it definitely sounds like an algae and not any other kind of plant.  Without seeing it though, it's hard to determine the type (unless you posted a pic and I missed it?).  There is a bright green variety of Brush (Beard) Algae, which doesn't grow very high, and which you may have.  This algae is susceptible to erythromycyn, which shouldn't affect your fishes, although ordinarily I don't advocate medicating indiscriminately.  Still, this may be worth a shot and shouldn't really harm your fishes.  If you see it working, be prepared to do some PWC's, syphoning off the bottom where this vegetation died. 
 
Back when you moved, and your water turned "murky," it almost sounds like this could have been a bacteria bloom.  Can't say for sure though without having seen it.  If it was, it could have caused oxygen deprivation; was the oxygen included as one of the "every" parameter you tested for ?  Did you test for oxygen when the guppies died ?  There may have been a similar issue going on there at that time.
 
I mention oxygen deprivation, not only because it may address your past problems, but because you need to avoid this potential if you treat your algae in killing it off.  Any algae that suddenly crashes will start a sudden bacterial bloom and deplete the oxygen.  Just be sure to remove the dead algae as soon as you see it, to avoid this problem.  If the algae starts killing off your plants, this same problem can occur when/if they start rotting.  BTW, just as Dawn stated, the Flourish Excel should not have killed your fish.  Double-dosed, it should kill Hair Algae (but I don't know if this is what you have) and some others -- but, for anyone else reading this, a double dose of Excel will kill off any Valisneria and Elodea too.  The Hydrogen Peroxide treatment will work, but it may not eradicate the problem if you miss any, as it will just grow right back. 
 
Ray
 
 
In a message dated 3/4/2014 10:44:50 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, mother@... writes:
 

The algae is clogging the area where leaves and roots come together in almost all my plants, and then grows in between the plants too.

Two or three years ago, I spent a fortune on plants, mostly my favorite Windelov.  

Back then, something suddenly turned the water murky two days after killing my 3 pair of just-paired discus that I had raised from nickel size.

When I moved, I cleaned the tank (hand washing every leaf of every plant in clean water) and set it up again.  Cycled it for a couple months, then got guppies.  They and Spot the old jaguar cat and a couple of plecos were plenty to deal with when life kept turning upside down.

I was very happy to see so many baby Windelov plants, 2" - 5" tall.  I do adore them and wanted a lot of them, like a jungle.

Two days after the guppies died, the water turned cloudy and looks like there is sludge floating over about 25% of the surface, same as before when the discus died (back then I tested every parameter of the water and found nothing out of whack.)  

I have not turned the light back on while it was murky, but have to tomorrow because I cannot bear to lose those scads of plants.  I have two 30-gal tanks I want to bring over, and they are bare and really NEED the surplus plants from the 55.

In the move here, my water test kit got mislaid, and money is tight, those are not cheap.

I am using well water in Florida, so the pH is high, 8.0-8.5.  Other folks here use the well water, they only soften it when they want to breed their discus or angels.  The guppies were having babies just fine as recently as last week.

I would miss the plants at least as much as the guppies.  What can I do to save the plants???

Thanks!

Being free of cancer is like, well, being FREE.

On with LIFE!

laurie (Mother Mastiff)
Silk Hope fiber farm, N FL

Group: AquaticLife Message: 55799 From: kbgwp Date: 3/5/2014
Subject: Re: No feeding, nowater changing
This idea of a low-maintenance tank sounds great.  Maybe you could investigate adding some live food to the tank.  Brine shrimp won't work long term since they need salt water to live but there are other things that do live in fresh water.  One that I know you can get eggs for is fairy shrimp.  Another is daphnia.  If you are not afraid to collect some aquatic bugs from a local pond, that might be a good place to get a starting culture.  I once helped a friend collect daphnia from his pond at night using a light to attract them and a fine mesh net.  I think he might have introduced the daphnia into that small private pond specifically to raise them but there are other similar creatures that normally live in ponds.  Unfortunately, a lot of them turn into flying insects though.

You might have to set the tank up with a section that the fish can't get to so they don't eat all of the little bugs.  Either that or add more every once in a while.

I know I mentioned this on this forum before and I still didn't do it but I want to set up a Walstad type dirt tank with a variety of these "live food" bugs to attempt to replicate the salt water aquarium's live sand and live rock.  Little bugs, worms, and snails in a planted tank is what I would like to have with no fish at all.  I'm not sure if a self-sustaining tank with fish will work but I think you could get close with the aquatic bugs.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55800 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 3/5/2014
Subject: Re: No feeding, nowater changing
Thank Mike, look forward to hearing what your friend has to say about this system.

  John<o)))<


On 5 March 2014 02:15, <Deenerz@...> wrote:
 

I agree John.
 
I usually feed a pellet or flake that is a mix for "Omnivores" as well as some "alage" wafers for the plecos. There is a well respected fish keeper in my local club, he has been keeping fish for about 40 years and some of his fish are almost that old.  He insists that we should supplement with baby brine or other live protein while fish are fry. He raises a large variety of fish and is very succesful. 
 
 
Our club also has a member that is a Biologist I will ask his opinion on this next week.  He studies tropical fish in the wild as well as raising them and studying their behavior.
 
 
Mike
 



 
-----Original Message-----
From: SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...>
To: AquaticLife <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tue, Mar 4, 2014 5:28 pm
Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: No feeding, nowater changing

 
I've never heard of this Walstad tank before-looks interesting & I will study it-a tank that needs no maintenence is a great idea although anything that looks too good to be true generally is. I also have trouble with the idea of forcing vegetarianism on animals, we do it by choice-they can't choose if we restrict their natural diet which is cruel.

  John<o)))<


On 4 March 2014 22:21, <Deenerz@...> wrote:
 
Sounds like you are look at a Walstadt tank.
 
 
Careful not to compare Humans/primates to other animals.  Similarities break down and you may end up with sick fish.
 
 


 
-----Original Message-----
From: luvnpeas99 <luvnpeas99@...>
To: AquaticLife <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tue, Mar 4, 2014 1:00 pm
Subject: [AquaticLife] RE: No feeding, nowater changing

 
Conservation of matter = minerals don't go anywhere.

I'm basically asking if one can avoid the need for "divine" (human) intervention with a much higher plant/animal ratio than normal, and careful selecton of fish. If not guppies, then an algae-eater. Deadand fecal  material is recycled into the soil for use by plants, which oxygenate the water, etc. in the classic symbiotic exchange.

Omnivores can be healthy vegetarians. Humans are the obvious example.


Group: AquaticLife Message: 55801 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 3/5/2014
Subject: Re: No feeding, nowater changing
I think it was the addition of the dirt that worried me the most-especially seeing that photo of John Innes Compost on the web site!

  John<o)))<


On 5 March 2014 14:26, <kbgwp@...> wrote:
 

This idea of a low-maintenance tank sounds great.  Maybe you could investigate adding some live food to the tank.  Brine shrimp won't work long term since they need salt water to live but there are other things that do live in fresh water.  One that I know you can get eggs for is fairy shrimp.  Another is daphnia.  If you are not afraid to collect some aquatic bugs from a local pond, that might be a good place to get a starting culture.  I once helped a friend collect daphnia from his pond at night using a light to attract them and a fine mesh net.  I think he might have introduced the daphnia into that small private pond specifically to raise them but there are other similar creatures that normally live in ponds.  Unfortunately, a lot of them turn into flying insects though.

You might have to set the tank up with a section that the fish can't get to so they don't eat all of the little bugs.  Either that or add more every once in a while.

I know I mentioned this on this forum before and I still didn't do it but I want to set up a Walstad type dirt tank with a variety of these "live food" bugs to attempt to replicate the salt water aquarium's live sand and live rock.  Little bugs, worms, and snails in a planted tank is what I would like to have with no fish at all.  I'm not sure if a self-sustaining tank with fish will work but I think you could get close with the aquatic bugs.


Group: AquaticLife Message: 55802 From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c Date: 3/5/2014
Subject: Re: "Moss" is probably algae - more problems
An easy way to avoid excessive die off of algae due to treatment would be to manually remove as much of it as you can before doing the treatment.
I agree with Ray about the bacteria blooms.  Usually cloudy water is an indication of bacterial bloom or suspended algae bloom.  If the water was "white cloudy" that would indicate bacteria, if it was "green cloudy" that would indicate suspended algae.  Those are 2 very different situations to deal with, and not knowing which of the 2 occurred makes it difficult to say what could have happened to kill your fish or cause the cloudy water.  Rapid changes in water chemistry can trigger either of those situations, and the most dangerous part of either will be lack of oxygen.  With a bacteria bloom there tends to be a sudden ammonia and then nitrite spike, which are also dangerous to the fish.  With suspended algae there is the risk that the algae gets trapped and coagulates in the gills, preventing oxygen intake. 

As for saving your plants at this point, I suggest manually removing as much of the algae as possible and then choose a treatment option.  If there are no fish left in the tank then there is no risk in using the eurethromycin, or peroxide.  Just keep in mind that algae is also a plant, so some of these methods may have some effect on certain plant species.  The other option is to continue dosing with the Flourish Excel according to the directions on the bottle.  It takes up to a week to 10 days before you see algae really start to die back.  That doesn't mean the FE isn't working.  It takes time but if you continue to dose even after the algae is gone from sight, that will help prevent it from coming back again.  When you move the plants you can go ahead and clean them off again like you did the last time before introducing them to a new tank.  Both the peroxide and erethromycin are something you have to be careful not to use often or overdose, especially when fish are in the tank, and once you stop using them the algae will likely grow back again.  That's why I would suggest sticking to the FE and watch your water parameters and oxygen levels closely. 

Dawn
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55803 From: jett07002 Date: 3/5/2014
Subject: Re: No feeding, nowater changing

Hi, All:

Agree with Mike and his 40 year fish keeper.   We (I) always supplemented feeding the fry with brine shrimp.

As a matter of fact, some of us even went so far as to feed the baby shrimp with supplements so that when the fish ate them it would be even more nutritious.

  I would think Ray or Dawn could expound on this better than I can.


joe t

Group: AquaticLife Message: 55804 From: sevenspringss Date: 3/5/2014
Subject: Re: No feeding, nowater changing
AOL Email
For starters here, I find it very unnerving addressing someone I don't even know the name of.  While you may have introduced yourself originally, I need to ask you to please sign your messages so that we may know who you are when they're posted.  It's not a requirement, but it goes a long way towards maintaining a more friendly atmosphere here -- and, it's appreciated.
 
As to your question, what you're asking about is referred to as the "balanced aquarium" concept.  It can, and has been done, even going back into the 1930's -- but never on an infinite basis.  Sooner or later, these sealed, self-contained environments free of external influences were found to fail as the balances established within them are always precarious at best.  In the best of scenarios, the natural outdoor environment (with the absence of man) is ever-changing and needs the constant influx of additional nutrients to survive.
 
There is very rarely enough of any one vegetative food being produced at any one time -- from the wastes of the living organisms consuming it -- to remain as a perpetual environment in sustaining the fishes indefinitely.  Yes, there is the certain reciprocal reaction between plants and fishes, even a mutual exchange of gases each use which benefits each other but the perpetually balanced aquarium has been proven by biologists in this field to be a myth. 
 
As someone else here suggested -- and again, I can't credit them as they hadn't signed -- seeding the aquarium with daphnia or cyclops might sound like a way to accomplish the perpetuity of non-interference of an aquarium, but the rate of these live foods' multiplication can never be sustained in balance with the fishes' devouring of them for any extended length of time.  
 
As a student of Dr. William T. Innes, I set up a 3 1/2 gallon tank of Guppies and Vallisneria in a controlled balanced aquarium experiment back in the early 1950's.  It thrived at first, with the plants multiplying by runners wrapping around the inside of the tank several times.  The Guppies also thrived and multiplied up to a finite extent.  I used Red Ramshorn Snails in this same tank to control the decay of dead plant and animal matter, which converted these solid organic matters back into plant and animaculae foods.  The plants multiplied to a finite extent, growing a finite number of them while at the same time, the oldest plants were found to die off eventually, at the same rate as the new ones propagated -- no more and no less. 
 
The same thing happened with the Guppies; after reaching a certain population number, the oldest ones died off only at the same rate as new ones were produced -- and, unlike Guppies maintained in an unconfined aquarium where they'd multiply freely, new ones in the attempted balanced aquarium added to the population only at the same rate the older ones died off -- they maintained a status quo.  Of course, no doubt some were eaten, but the end result was that eventually there was a stable population within a certain number, not varying very much from that established number.
 
While this cohabitation lasted for at least three years, I found that it could not have unless I at least periodically added small amounts of fish foods to this tank.  Without these additions, it was found that it would have failed.  Partial water changes at least had to be done, as otherwise if this were not done, the DOS (Dissolved Organic Solids) were found to build up, producing an environment not conducive to the fish's well being.
 
At this same time (during the early 1950's) there was an aquarium store in New York City, only about one block away from the famed Aquarium Stock Company, by the name of Nassau Aquarium.  In its showroom window was a sealed "balanced" aquarium containing much algae (propagated by the influence of the sun shining into the front window) and a group of Black Sailfin Mollies.  This set up too was purposely unattended for years, but was found in time to require the attention of maintenance by the proprietor if it was to survive.  Many older aquarists well remember this very aquarium in this long-gone store and still talk about it to this day, but the end result is that a "balanced aquarium" cannot exist on its own forever without an owner's interference.
 
All animals (including humans . . . and fish) need protein to flourish; it's essential to every animals' everyday well being.  Protein can only be found in larger quantities in animal matter, although plant matter too can contain protein.  Elephants are a typical example of an herbivore living just on plant matter but which need large amounts of protein to grow as big as they do.  They eat (and HAVE TO eat) between 330 and 350 pounds of food each day -- of vegetable matter -- to get enough nutrients to satisfy their needs -- protein included.  You bring up vegetarians (humans, not fish) who eat nothing but vegetable matter and who still do exceedingly well.  The smart vegetarians make sure to include such items as lentils, beans, nuts seeds and grains in their vegan diets as these foods contain the highest protein levels outside of meat, fish, eggs and milk. 
 
In the aquarium, we can't supplement our fishes' diets with any kind of higher protein vegetable matter such as I just indicated that people consume -- BUT -- for those fishes such as catfish and loaches, etc., which subsist on just vegetable matter, the algae they consume is comparatively rich in protein, but here again, supplementing their diets with spirulina wafers and the like is an extreme benefit to them when considering that spirulina is at least 60% vegetable protein.  It's not found in an aquarium that isn't attended by humans though -- so again the end result is that these fish won't do as well, even if enough algae continues to grow at a rate fast enough to fill their needs (which isn't always guaranteed).  The smart fish hobbyist will ensure to supplement their fishes' diet with only the best of foods, and a wide variety of them -- as they would find in unconfined nature..   
 
Ray  (one of your Moderators) 
 
 
In a message dated 3/4/2014 4:00:39 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, luvnpeas99@... writes:
 

Conservation of matter = minerals don't go anywhere.

I'm basically asking if one can avoid the need for "divine" (human) intervention with a much higher plant/animal ratio than normal, and careful selecton of fish. If not guppies, then an algae-eater. Deadand fecal  material is recycled into the soil for use by plants, which oxygenate the water, etc. in the classic symbiotic exchange.

Omnivores can be healthy vegetarians. Humans are the obvious example.

Group: AquaticLife Message: 55805 From: deenerzz Date: 3/5/2014
Subject: Re: No feeding, nowater changing
Thank you Ray!

Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: sevenspringss1 <sevenspringss1@...>
To: AquaticLife <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wed, Mar 5, 2014 9:26 pm
Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: No feeding, nowater changing

 
For starters here, I find it very unnerving addressing someone I don't even know the name of.  While you may have introduced yourself originally, I need to ask you to please sign your messages so that we may know who you are when they're posted.  It's not a requirement, but it goes a long way towards maintaining a more friendly atmosphere here -- and, it's appreciated.
 
As to your question, what you're asking about is referred to as the "balanced aquarium" concept.  It can, and has been done, even going back into the 1930's -- but never on an infinite basis.  Sooner or later, these sealed, self-contained environments free of external influences were found to fail as the balances established within them are always precarious at best.  In the best of scenarios, the natural outdoor environment (with the absence of man) is ever-changing and needs the constant influx of additional nutrients to survive.
 
There is very rarely enough of any one vegetative food being produced at any one time -- from the wastes of the living organisms consuming it -- to remain as a perpetual environment in sustaining the fishes indefinitely.  Yes, there is the certain reciprocal reaction between plants and fishes, even a mutual exchange of gases each use which benefits each other but the perpetually balanced aquarium has been proven by biologists in this field to be a myth. 
 
As someone else here suggested -- and again, I can't credit them as they hadn't signed -- seeding the aquarium with daphnia or cyclops might sound like a way to accomplish the perpetuity of non-interference of an aquarium, but the rate of these live foods' multiplication can never be sustained in balance with the fishes' devouring of them for any extended length of time.  
 
As a student of Dr. William T. Innes, I set up a 3 1/2 gallon tank of Guppies and Vallisneria in a controlled balanced aquarium experiment back in the early 1950's.  It thrived at first, with the plants multiplying by runners wrapping around the inside of the tank several times.  The Guppies also thrived and multiplied up to a finite extent.  I used Red Ramshorn Snails in this same tank to control the decay of dead plant and animal matter, which converted these solid organic matters back into plant and animaculae foods.  The plants multiplied to a finite extent, growing a finite number of them while at the same time, the oldest plants were found to die off eventually, at the same rate as the new ones propagated -- no more and no less. 
 
The same thing happened with the Guppies; after reaching a certain population number, the oldest ones died off only at the same rate as new ones were produced -- and, unlike Guppies maintained in an unconfined aquarium where they'd multiply freely, new ones in the attempted balanced aquarium added to the population only at the same rate the older ones died off -- they maintained a status quo.  Of course, no doubt some were eaten, but the end result was that eventually there was a stable population within a certain number, not varying very much from that established number.
 
While this cohabitation lasted for at least three years, I found that it could not have unless I at least periodically added small amounts of fish foods to this tank.  Without these additions, it was found that it would have failed.  Partial water changes at least had to be done, as otherwise if this were not done, the DOS (Dissolved Organic Solids) were found to build up, producing an environment not conducive to the fish's well being.
 
At this same time (during the early 1950's) there was an aquarium store in New York City, only about one block away from the famed Aquarium Stock Company, by the name of Nassau Aquarium.  In its showroom window was a sealed "balanced" aquarium containing much algae (propagated by the influence of the sun shining into the front window) and a group of Black Sailfin Mollies.  This set up too was purposely unattended for years, but was found in time to require the attention of maintenance by the proprietor if it was to survive.  Many older aquarists well remember this very aquarium in this long-gone store and still talk about it to this day, but the end result is that a "balanced aquarium" cannot exist on its own forever without an owner's interference.
 
All animals (including humans . . . and fish) need protein to flourish; it's essential to every animals' everyday well being.  Protein can only be found in larger quantities in animal matter, although plant matter too can contain protein.  Elephants are a typical example of an herbivore living just on plant matter but which need large amounts of protein to grow as big as they do.  They eat (and HAVE TO eat) between 330 and 350 pounds of food each day -- of vegetable matter -- to get enough nutrients to satisfy their needs -- protein included.  You bring up vegetarians (humans, not fish) who eat nothing but vegetable matter and who still do exceedingly well.  The smart vegetarians make sure to include such items as lentils, beans, nuts seeds and grains in their vegan diets as these foods contain the highest protein levels outside of meat, fish, eggs and milk. 
 
In the aquarium, we can't supplement our fishes' diets with any kind of higher protein vegetable matter such as I just indicated that people consume -- BUT -- for those fishes such as catfish and loaches, etc., which subsist on just vegetable matter, the algae they consume is comparatively rich in protein, but here again, supplementing their diets with spirulina wafers and the like is an extreme benefit to them when considering that spirulina is at least 60% vegetable protein.  It's not found in an aquarium that isn't attended by humans though -- so again the end result is that these fish won't do as well, even if enough algae continues to grow at a rate fast enough to fill their needs (which isn't always guaranteed).  The smart fish hobbyist will ensure to supplement their fishes' diet with only the best of foods, and a wide variety of them -- as they would find in unconfined nature..   
 
Ray  (one of your Moderators) 
 
 
In a message dated 3/4/2014 4:00:39 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, luvnpeas99@... writes:
 
Conservation of matter = minerals don't go anywhere.

I'm basically asking if one can avoid the need for "divine" (human) intervention with a much higher plant/animal ratio than normal, and careful selecton of fish. If not guppies, then an algae-eater. Deadand fecal  material is recycled into the soil for use by plants, which oxygenate the water, etc. in the classic symbiotic exchange.

Omnivores can be healthy vegetarians. Humans are the obvious example.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55806 From: kbgwp Date: 3/6/2014
Subject: Re: No feeding, nowater changing
Sorry for not signing my last post about adding the live food sources to the tank.  I still want that freshwater version of live sand and live rock and will get it someday.  As much as I'd love to have a no-maintenance tank, I have no problem with feeding the creatures and even doing water changes to keep such a tank alive and thriving.  I know when I tried the salt water aquarium, I would spend a lot of time just watching to see what kind of living things I could discover hiding in the cracks and crevices of the rocks and crawling around in and on the sand bottom.  I never did have any fish in that tank and didn't really even miss them although I did have other freshwater aquariums at that time that did have fish.

Brian in PA - USA
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55807 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 3/6/2014
Subject: Re: No feeding, nowater changing
Very interesting reading Ray-thank you.

  John<o)))<


On 6 March 2014 13:33, <kbgwp@...> wrote:
 

Sorry for not signing my last post about adding the live food sources to the tank.  I still want that freshwater version of live sand and live rock and will get it someday.  As much as I'd love to have a no-maintenance tank, I have no problem with feeding the creatures and even doing water changes to keep such a tank alive and thriving.  I know when I tried the salt water aquarium, I would spend a lot of time just watching to see what kind of living things I could discover hiding in the cracks and crevices of the rocks and crawling around in and on the sand bottom.  I never did have any fish in that tank and didn't really even miss them although I did have other freshwater aquariums at that time that did have fish.

Brian in PA - USA


Group: AquaticLife Message: 55808 From: sevenspringss Date: 3/6/2014
Subject: Re: No feeding, nowater changing
AOL Email
You're welcome John -- I always try to be thorough so that things are completely understood.  As for Brian's hopes, the freshwater environment and the saltwater environment are quite different.  The closest you could come to "live sand" and "live rock" in the freshwater aquarium would be in your filter.  All surfaces including the sand and rocks will be inhabited by nitrobacters though, only not especially large populations of them. 
 
Ray
 
 
In a message dated 3/6/2014 4:49:48 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, simmonds.john@... writes:
 

Very interesting reading Ray-thank you.

  John<o)))<


On 6 March 2014 13:33, <kbgwp@...> wrote:
 

Sorry for not signing my last post about adding the live food sources to the tank.  I still want that freshwater version of live sand and live rock and will get it someday.  As much as I'd love to have a no-maintenance tank, I have no problem with feeding the creatures and even doing water changes to keep such a tank alive and thriving.  I know when I tried the salt water aquarium, I would spend a lot of time just watching to see what kind of living things I could discover hiding in the cracks and crevices of the rocks and crawling around in and on the sand bottom.  I never did have any fish in that tank and didn't really even miss them although I did have other freshwater aquariums at that time that did have fish.

Brian in PA - USA


Group: AquaticLife Message: 55809 From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c Date: 3/7/2014
Subject: Re: No feeding, nowater changing
I hate to echo bad news, but I have to agree with Ray.  The freshwater environment is very different from the saltwater environment, and the diversity of animals is just as different.  While you can use porous rock such as tufa rock, in a freshwater tank to help with the nitrification process, which essentially turns it into a freshwater form of "live rock" you will not see the kinds of things you are describing with "critters" crawling in/on/out of the rock unless you first introduce these things to the tank.  Please be aware, however, that IF you introduce these critters to a freshwater tank, many of what you will find crawling around the tank will be a potential threat to your aquarium fish and you will also likely end up with eggs & larvae from a variety of insect species that will hatch, leave the water, and inhabit your house. 
Aside from freshwater copepods and amphipods, most of which are difficult to ever see in a freshwater tank, most of the things remaining in a freshwater substrate and rock type environment will be parasitic in nature.  Introducing non native species of animals to a situation like that means you are adding animals to be infected/infested by these parasites because they have no immunity to them.  And even worse for you is that a vast majority of the critter life such as you're describing... in a freshwater environment, tends to be microscopic in size.  In order to watch them you'd have to put water samples under a microscope. 

But if you want to try such a thing, let me make a suggestion.  Set yourself up a 20 - 30 gallon tank, run a powerhead for circulation rather than filter, and the only things you will want to put into this tank will be rock, sand/mud, water from a natural environment outdoors, such as a well established (for years) pond.  Dredge as deep as you can in that natural pond/river/lake/stream, but the more stagnant the water then more "life" you are likely to find.  I would suggest making sure you have a tight cover on this tank so that insects cannot escape easily, and a plan of some sort to eliminate potential nuisance insects from invading your house if they should get out.  Mosquitoes, many species of flies, beetles, etc. will all be found in these kinds of environments.  And please make sure that the location you are taking this stuff from, it is legal to do so.  My only request is that you NOT introduce non native fish into this environment.  If you desire fish in there, the best thing to do would be to catch a few wild minnows who have some immunity to the parasites, bacteria, fungus, etc. that will be brought in with your sand/mud, water collection.  That won't prevent anything from feeding on the fish, but those fish would have a much better chance at survival. 

To keep this new environment thriving in your tank you will also need to collect water from the same source repeatedly during the course of the year for water changes and top off's.  Even a wild habitat has some "maintenance" performed by mother nature in way of rain, snow, wind, circulation, etc.  If you put such an environment into a glass box and start to add things like tap or well water that have been somehow filtered, you will begin to see die off of the organisms in the tank.  The same thing applies to additives such as water conditioner, fertilizers, etc. too.  If you collect and add only rain water then you will eventually deplete the environment of the food supply these critters feed on.  This could be a fun science experiment if you're up to the challenge.  And you might want to put this in a room that is well ventilated because it is also liable to smell something awful, lol.  There will be a lot of rotting organic matter and pollution found in this type of environment, and once enclosed into a small space, it will have a foul odor, will grow algae, etc.  If in the future you would decide to use this same tank to set up a "captive" aquarium environment with aquarium fish, it would be a good idea to bleach/sterilize or replace everything that was used for this project to avoid contamination and a multitude of issues. 

Dawn
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55810 From: kbgwp Date: 3/8/2014
Subject: Re: No feeding, nowater changing
Thanks Dawn and Ray,
The closest I've ever got to having this dream (freshwater live sand/rock) was a 10 gallon planted tank with NO FISH.  The only living things besides the plants were snails and some tiny copepods and planaria.  The filter was a homemade, air powered one made from a glass jar filled with aquarium gravel with a plastic pipe and 90 degree elbows in the jar and the airline at the bottom of the pipe.  This worked great and didn't kill any of the tiny critters that got in it.  In fact, they lived in it.  The only thing missing was worms but I never found any freshwater ones to add.  I do like the idea of screening the tank or sealing it somehow to keep any hatching insects from escaping.  That would open up a lot more possible choices.

The start for this tank was obtained from a private pond using a fine net to collect the tiny snails, snail eggs, and other living things.  I did not and would not put tropical or even native fish in this tank since the goal was to keep and watch the tiny stuff that would have been eaten by any fish.  The plants were another feature of this tank that I enjoyed.  There was no hood on this tank and the plants grew both above and below the water.  It wasn't the same as the salt water aquarium but was a lot cheaper and much less work.

I'll eventually set up another aquarium.  Just haven't decided exactly what I want and can get yet.  Ghost shrimp might be an option.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55811 From: sevenspringss Date: 3/8/2014
Subject: Re: No feeding, nowater changing
AOL Email
Ghost Shrimp (also called grass shrimp, I believe) would be a great option.  Freshwater shrimp have become increasingly popular over the last 4 or 5 years or so.  Most hobbyist prefer more exotic ones which have nice colors, but the native grass shrimp are also popular.  They're not found in every freshwater habitat in their range, but when you find them they're usually abundant.  Depending upon where you live, they're worth considering.  I'm often able to catch them at one of the lakes I collect native fishes from in southern New Jersey but they're found right down to Florida.  Easily fed too, as they'll take flake food and pellets but they do especially well on algae.
 
Ray 
 
 
In a message dated 3/8/2014 5:45:22 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, kbgwp@... writes:
 

Thanks Dawn and Ray,
The closest I've ever got to having this dream (freshwater live sand/rock) was a 10 gallon planted tank with NO FISH.  The only living things besides the plants were snails and some tiny copepods and planaria.  The filter was a homemade, air powered one made from a glass jar filled with aquarium gravel with a plastic pipe and 90 degree elbows in the jar and the airline at the bottom of the pipe.  This worked great and didn't kill any of the tiny critters that got in it.  In fact, they lived in it.  The only thing missing was worms but I never found any freshwater ones to add.  I do like the idea of screening the tank or sealing it somehow to keep any hatching insects from escaping.  That would open up a lot more possible choices.

The start for this tank was obtained from a private pond using a fine net to collect the tiny snails, snail eggs, and other living things.  I did not and would not put tropical or even native fish in this tank since the goal was to keep and watch the tiny stuff that would have been eaten by any fish.  The plants were another feature of this tank that I enjoyed.  There was no hood on this tank and the plants grew both above and below the water.  It wasn't the same as the salt water aquarium but was a lot cheaper and much less work.

I'll eventually set up another aquarium.  Just haven't decided exactly what I want and can get yet.  Ghost shrimp might be an option.

Group: AquaticLife Message: 55812 From: kbgwp Date: 3/9/2014
Subject: Re: No feeding, nowater changing
Thanks again Ray,
I had no idea the ghost or grass shrimp might be native.  I have seen them at the pet shop before although I'm not sure that they weren't being sold to feed other fish.  That's where I would probably get them but might do some research to see if they live around here (in Pennsylvania).  I expect you would have to have a fishing license to collect them legally.

The only aquariums I have right now are a 5 gallon and a 10 gallon and they are not set up although the 5 gallon does have dirt, sand, water and a piece of drift wood I have been curing for well over a year now but no fish or plants.  I really want a much larger tank but don't have the money or space to do it at this time.  Every time I read the messages from this group it does make me want to get something set back up but I've had many aquariums before and next time I want my dream tank.  The problem is, I don't know exactly what that is yet.  It will almost certainly be freshwater and not just planted but aquascaped to possibly look natural.  I'll eventually figure it out but it might still take a few more tries to get what I'm looking for.  I keep thinking about using some features normally only seen in saltwater tanks like a sump to increase the amount of water and hide the filter and heater and possibly a refugium to give me a separate place to raise copepods or whatever protected from the main tank.

Brian in PA
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55813 From: sevenspringss Date: 3/9/2014
Subject: Re: No feeding, nowater changing
AOL Email
Hi Brian,
 
I just assumed you knew that ghost shrimp were native, only because you seem to prefer setting up a native tank and want to include them.  As I mentioned, there are more colorful freshwater shrimp, but they're exotic.  As you're setting up a tank of them sans fish, I did not see the need to include them (fish) in my reply, but for anyone else who may be interested in shrimp, you need to be careful about which fish to include with shrimp as these inverts can quickly become food for many larger fishes, including Cichlids.
 
These Ghost shrimp may be found in Pennsylvania; I'm really not sure.  I don't believe one would need a fishing license to collect shrimp, as these licenses cover only the need to regulate vertibrate  fishes.  As I make field trips to collect native fishes, I need to apply to my State for a Scientific Collecting Permit which doesn't necessitate a fishing license, but they're not that easily issued.  The shrimp I collect in certain lakes, along with the fish, are incidental -- as being found in the same seineful of small fishes -- but appreciated by many of the attendees that participate.    
 
If you're a member of the BCAS (Bucks County Aquarium Society) or the ACLC (Aquarium Club of Lancaster County), both in PA, you should get in touch with some of these club's officers who often join these collecting groups under my supervision.  Maybe you could join them, or maybe you could get them to bring some shrimp back for you.
 
If you don't belong to one of these clubs, you should consider joining, unless you're in another club or you're just not that close to where they meet.  The BCAS meets in Churchville, PA and the ACLC meets in Lancaster -- nearby the "That Fish Place" brick & morter fish store.  Next meeting of the ACLA is on Saturday, March 15th at 1:00PM.  The program is on Lake Victoria Haplochromines by Greg Steeves.  The BCAS meets on the 1st Thursday of the month, so their next meeting won't be until April 3rd.
 
Ray
 
 
In a message dated 3/9/2014 9:22:47 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, kbgwp@... writes:
 

Thanks again Ray,
I had no idea the ghost or grass shrimp might be native.  I have seen them at the pet shop before although I'm not sure that they weren't being sold to feed other fish.  That's where I would probably get them but might do some research to see if they live around here (in Pennsylvania).  I expect you would have to have a fishing license to collect them legally.

The only aquariums I have right now are a 5 gallon and a 10 gallon and they are not set up although the 5 gallon does have dirt, sand, water and a piece of drift wood I have been curing for well over a year now but no fish or plants.  I really want a much larger tank but don't have the money or space to do it at this time.  Every time I read the messages from this group it does make me want to get something set back up but I've had many aquariums before and next time I want my dream tank.  The problem is, I don't know exactly what that is yet.  It will almost certainly be freshwater and not just planted but aquascaped to possibly look natural.  I'll eventually figure it out but it might still take a few more tries to get what I'm looking for.  I keep thinking about using some features normally only seen in saltwater tanks like a sump to increase the amount of water and hide the filter and heater and possibly a refugium to give me a separate place to raise copepods or whatever protected from the main tank.

Brian in PA

Group: AquaticLife Message: 55814 From: kbgwp Date: 3/9/2014
Subject: Re: No feeding, nowater changing
I'm not close enough to either of those clubs.  I'm in Clearfield County about 200 or 250 miles away from either of those places.  I've never checked with the local pet shops to see if there might be a local club but I kind of doubt it.  My best bet would be to buy the fishing license and collect "bait" or just buy the shrimp from the pet shop.  I'm not planning to rush right into this idea but spring is coming soon (I hope) and now I'm thinking more serious about it.  That 10 gallon aquarium would probably be big enough to keep a few shrimp in to get back into the hobby.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55815 From: kbgwp Date: 3/9/2014
Subject: Re: No feeding, nowater changing
Sorry about that.  I forgot to sign my last reply again.  I did some more searching and it looks like Pittsburgh, Pa is the closest aquarium club to me and even it is a good drive away.  I guess this area is just too small to have enough interested people to form a club.

Brian in PA
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55816 From: sevenspringss Date: 3/9/2014
Subject: Re: No feeding, nowater changing
AOL Email
Brian,
 
There's the Greater Pittsburgh Aquarium Society out there; they meet at the Phipps Conservatory/Botanical Garden Center in Mellon Park.  It's just off 5th Avenue, at 1059 Shady Avenue.  Next meeting night is March 28 at 7:30 PM (some members get there up to an hour early for fish talk).  If you get out there, please say hello to Eric Bodrock for me.  He's very knowledgeable about the hobby and specializes in Cory Catfish, often giving lectures on them.  He used to live in Pittsburgh but moved to the outskirts a few years ago.  He could probably give you some good advice too, on most anything you could think of asking him about setting up your 10 gallon as a "pond environment."  
 
Ray (Wetzel)
 
 
In a message dated 3/9/2014 12:56:16 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, kbgwp@... writes:
 

Sorry about that.  I forgot to sign my last reply again.  I did some more searching and it looks like Pittsburgh, Pa is the closest aquarium club to me and even it is a good drive away.  I guess this area is just too small to have enough interested people to form a club.

Brian in PA

Group: AquaticLife Message: 55817 From: amejia1976 Date: 3/10/2014
Subject: Whats this growing?
Hello All;

Wondering if anyone has any idea of what plant is growing in my aquarium? I have 4 pictures in the folder named AMejia1976.

Your assistance is greatly appreciated.

Alex
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55818 From: Amber Date: 3/11/2014
Subject: Re: Whats this growing?
Looks like a type of moss, possibly java moss.

Amber


On Mon, 10 Mar 2014 16:54:12 -0800, <amejia1976@...> wrote:

 

Hello All;


Wondering if anyone has any idea of what plant is growing in my aquarium? I have 4 pictures in the folder named AMejia1976.

Your assistance is greatly appreciated.

Alex
_
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55819 From: steckermonkey50 Date: 3/14/2014
Subject: Little giant water pump

I am thinking of buying a little giant 4-MDQX-SC external water pump for my wet-dry filter system on my 100 gallon aquarium. It puts out 1,100 GPH max, my question is that since I don't need that much water flow what would be better? a 1" adjustable valve to reduce the flow on the return line or should I use a dimmer type control to reduce the voltage going into it and slow it down? I know I can buy a generic pond pump that put out the 600 - 700 or so GPH I should be using, but I trust the little giant name much more than a generic pond pump - my last large aquarium/wet-dry set up ran a little giant submersible and it ran for many-many years.


                                                  Thank you,

                                                      Pat L.

Group: AquaticLife Message: 55820 From: Alex Mejia Date: 3/15/2014
Subject: Re: Whats this growing?
Thanks amber. 
So from what ive been reading this is a good plant to have. Also as i have been able to get this growing is a good sign of a stable environment? 

Alex


Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Note® II


-------- Original message --------
From: Amber
Date:03/11/2014 10:38 AM (GMT-05:00)
To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Whats this growing?

Looks like a type of moss, possibly java moss.

Amber


On Mon, 10 Mar 2014 16:54:12 -0800, <amejia1976@...> wrote:

 

Hello All;


Wondering if anyone has any idea of what plant is growing in my aquarium? I have 4 pictures in the folder named AMejia1976.

Your assistance is greatly appreciated.

Alex
_
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55821 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 3/15/2014
Subject: Re: Little giant water pump
Hi Pat,

  What kind[s] of fish do you have? I assume you are talking US gallons? I'm not familiar with the particular make of pump you mention but perhaps my experience may be of some help to you. I have a 100 UK gallon breeder type tank [which I think is approx 120 US gal]  with 2 x Eheim Compact+ 5000s both set to their minimum output of 660 Us GPH making a total of 1320 US GPH. This is great as they turn the tank over 10 times per hour. The 2 outlets are near the ends of the tank & fire horizontally just below the surface towards the middle. There is quite a surface ripple which is good for the gas exchange as I keep Goldfish but the current lower down in the tank is minimal. Apart from maintenance stoppages these pumps have been running trouble-free for nearly 5 years.

  John<o)))<


On 14 March 2014 14:48, <steckermonkey50@...> wrote:
 

I am thinking of buying a little giant 4-MDQX-SC external water pump for my wet-dry filter system on my 100 gallon aquarium. It puts out 1,100 GPH max, my question is that since I don't need that much water flow what would be better? a 1" adjustable valve to reduce the flow on the return line or should I use a dimmer type control to reduce the voltage going into it and slow it down? I know I can buy a generic pond pump that put out the 600 - 700 or so GPH I should be using, but I trust the little giant name much more than a generic pond pump - my last large aquarium/wet-dry set up ran a little giant submersible and it ran for many-many years.


                                                  Thank you,

                                                      Pat L.


Group: AquaticLife Message: 55822 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 3/15/2014
Subject: Cleaning Bogwood
Hi Dawn,

  A couple of weeks ago you suggested boiling bogwood to remove the black algae, how long should I boil it for & should I use a stiff brush to remove the algae once boiled?

  John<o)))<
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55823 From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c Date: 3/16/2014
Subject: Re: Cleaning Bogwood
I would boil it for at least 30 minutes.  You want the boiling water to literally "cook" away the algae, and then yes, scrub with a stiff brush/toothbrush to remove whatever remains.  This may take more than once to get it all, it depends on the wood, it's density, and the exact species of algae.  After boiling and scrubbing, let it dry for a few days to a week, and then scrub with a brush again.  Anything remaining should literally crumble as you brush it off at that point.

Dawn
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55824 From: Amber Date: 3/17/2014
Subject: Re: Whats this growing?
I like my java moss, I attach it to rocks so it looks like little fluffy moss balls after awhile. I trim it occasionally when it gets out of hand. It's somewhat slow growing. Without tank parameters (water testing) I couldn't say how stable your environment is... but the java moss looks healthy so that's good. It doesn't need a lot of light though, so it's easy to care for.

Amber

On Sat, 15 Mar 2014 08:06:18 -0800, Alex Mejia <amejia1976@...> wrote:

 
Thanks amber. 
So from what ive been reading this is a good plant to have. Also as i have been able to get this growing is a good sign of a stable environment? 

Alex


Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Note® II


-------- Original message --------
From: Amber
Date:03/11/2014 10:38 AM (GMT-05:00)
To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Whats this growing?

Looks like a type of moss, possibly java moss.

Amber


On Mon, 10 Mar 2014 16:54:12 -0800, <amejia1976@...> wrote:

 

Hello All;


Wondering if anyone has any idea of what plant is growing in my aquarium? I have 4 pictures in the folder named AMejia1976.

Your assistance is greatly appreciated.

Alex
_



--
Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55825 From: steckermonkey50 Date: 3/19/2014
Subject: Re: Little giant water pump

The aquarium is not set-up yet, but its a 5 foot long 100 gallon aquarium. As far as fish go ill probably have south American cichlids in it this time. Years back I had a 125 stocked with quite a variety of African cichlids ranging from 2" to a 12" frontosa. That aquarium had a early style glass wet/dry set-up with 10 slide out drip-trays with gravel in each tray and a little giant submersible water pump (I believe it put out 600 or so GPH max...been a long time) I don't know if I can get one of the little giant 4-MDQX-SC as there probably going to be out of my price range. Ill probably wind up having to get a generic submersible pond pump of around 700-800 GPH.

My filter is a used very large Eshopps WD300CS that I got a bargain on thru craigslist for $80...just need a good powerful pump, heater, sand (I prefer that over gravel) and I can set it up...cant wait!

Group: AquaticLife Message: 55826 From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c Date: 3/20/2014
Subject: Re: Little giant water pump
I would not suggest a sand substrate with South or Central American cichlids.  These guys do a LOT of digging and rearranging in their tanks and sand would irritate and scratch the gills as they attempt to move it.  This leads to abrasions, swelling, infections, and lack of oxygen for the fish.  For the sake of the fish, please stick to a smooth type of gravel that won't injure them.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55827 From: fish_go_illini Date: 3/20/2014
Subject: Sprin Auction / Peoria IL area March 22,2014
hello I will be attending the following event. If any of you are also attending look me up would love to chat face to face if your there.
TRI-COUNTY TROPICAL FISH SOCIETY AUCTION
Saturday, March 22, 2014
American Legion Hall, 4501 Airport Road, Bartonville, IL 61607
Doors open 9:00 A.M.
Auction starts 10:30 A.M.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55828 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 3/20/2014
Subject: Re: Cleaning Bogwood
Thank you Dawn,

  My apologies for not getting back to you sooner-I'll let you know how it goes.

  John<o)))<


On 16 March 2014 18:38, <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote:
 

I would boil it for at least 30 minutes.  You want the boiling water to literally "cook" away the algae, and then yes, scrub with a stiff brush/toothbrush to remove whatever remains.  This may take more than once to get it all, it depends on the wood, it's density, and the exact species of algae.  After boiling and scrubbing, let it dry for a few days to a week, and then scrub with a brush again.  Anything remaining should literally crumble as you brush it off at that point.

Dawn


Group: AquaticLife Message: 55829 From: megablasto2000 Date: 3/27/2014
Subject: Opinions on lava rock for freshwater aquariums
I'm thinking of using small lava rock instead of gravel for the bottom of my aquarium of goldfish.  It would go with my color scheme, and I understand it is porous so it can grow good bacteria.  I guess my only issue is whether the lava rock negatively affects water quality in some way (ph, minerals, etc).

Anyone want to chime in?

-Ken B.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55830 From: sevenspringss Date: 3/27/2014
Subject: Re: Opinions on lava rock for freshwater aquariums
AOL Email
Sounds like a good excess food collector, which may not even lend itself to vacuuming.
 
Ray
 
 
In a message dated 3/27/2014 5:53:24 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, megablasto2000@... writes:
 

I'm thinking of using small lava rock instead of gravel for the bottom of my aquarium of goldfish.  It would go with my color scheme, and I understand it is porous so it can grow good bacteria.  I guess my only issue is whether the lava rock negatively affects water quality in some way (ph, minerals, etc).


Anyone want to chime in?

-Ken B.

Group: AquaticLife Message: 55831 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 3/27/2014
Subject: Re: Opinions on lava rock for freshwater aquariums
Hi Ken,

  It could also be dangerous having sharp edges that your fish could injure themselves on or tear their fins. I'm not certain but it may also affect the pH of the water.

  John<o)))<


On 27 March 2014 10:57, <sevenspringss1@...> wrote:
 

Sounds like a good excess food collector, which may not even lend itself to vacuuming.
 
Ray
 
 
In a message dated 3/27/2014 5:53:24 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, megablasto2000@... writes:
 

I'm thinking of using small lava rock instead of gravel for the bottom of my aquarium of goldfish.  It would go with my color scheme, and I understand it is porous so it can grow good bacteria.  I guess my only issue is whether the lava rock negatively affects water quality in some way (ph, minerals, etc).


Anyone want to chime in?

-Ken B.


Group: AquaticLife Message: 55832 From: Harry Leverett Date: 3/27/2014
Subject: Re: Opinions on lava rock for freshwater aquariums
In a previous life I had a Koi pond and had a couple of horse troughs full of lava rock as a filter. It didn't effect the pH to any large degree , but it has very rough edges and as filter media with water flowing through it , works pretty well. It is however a bear to back flush well and after awhile starts to look pretty bad. I don't believe it would make a good substrate. Just mho
Harry

Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID


SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> wrote:

 

Hi Ken,

  It could also be dangerous having sharp edges that your fish could injure themselves on or tear their fins. I'm not certain but it may also affect the pH of the water.

  John<o)))<


On 27 March 2014 10:57, <sevenspringss1@...> wrote:
 

Sounds like a good excess food collector, which may not even lend itself to vacuuming.
 
Ray
 
 
In a message dated 3/27/2014 5:53:24 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, megablasto2000@... writes:
 

I'm thinking of using small lava rock instead of gravel for the bottom of my aquarium of goldfish.  It would go with my color scheme, and I understand it is porous so it can grow good bacteria.  I guess my only issue is whether the lava rock negatively affects water quality in some way (ph, minerals, etc).


Anyone want to chime in?

-Ken B.


Group: AquaticLife Message: 55833 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 3/27/2014
Subject: Re: Opinions on lava rock for freshwater aquariums
Thanks for that Harry,

  That confirms the pH issue is nothing to worry about, the only practical experience I have of the stuff is about half a bucket full in one compartment of a filter on a 25,000 UK gallon Koi & Goldfish pond that I look after so that is not going to make any difference!

  John<o)))<


On 27 March 2014 11:59, Harry Leverett <harryleverett60@...> wrote:
 

In a previous life I had a Koi pond and had a couple of horse troughs full of lava rock as a filter. It didn't effect the pH to any large degree , but it has very rough edges and as filter media with water flowing through it , works pretty well. It is however a bear to back flush well and after awhile starts to look pretty bad. I don't believe it would make a good substrate. Just mho
Harry

Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID


SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> wrote:

 

Hi Ken,

  It could also be dangerous having sharp edges that your fish could injure themselves on or tear their fins. I'm not certain but it may also affect the pH of the water.

  John<o)))<


On 27 March 2014 10:57, <sevenspringss1@...> wrote:
 

Sounds like a good excess food collector, which may not even lend itself to vacuuming.
 
Ray
 
 
In a message dated 3/27/2014 5:53:24 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, megablasto2000@... writes:
 

I'm thinking of using small lava rock instead of gravel for the bottom of my aquarium of goldfish.  It would go with my color scheme, and I understand it is porous so it can grow good bacteria.  I guess my only issue is whether the lava rock negatively affects water quality in some way (ph, minerals, etc).


Anyone want to chime in?

-Ken B.



Group: AquaticLife Message: 55834 From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c Date: 3/28/2014
Subject: Re: Opinions on lava rock for freshwater aquariums
The point about not being able to back flush it to clean it and it's difficult to run a gravel vac through is valid.  Lava rock breaks down in water rather quickly and leaves a very fine silt behind.  That silt will not only make a mess but it traps organic waste, too, which will affect water quality.  Goldfish are dirty, so this could be a problem quickly.  If you want to use it as a bio media then do that in a filter instead of using it as a substrate.  (this would work great in a canister filter added to whatever other filtration is already being used, provided the canister is cleaned monthly to remove the silt buildup at the bottom)  The other problem that was mentioned about it being rough texture is also a valid concern.  Goldfish spend a LOT of time mouthing the substrate in search of food.  The rough texture can easily cause damage to their mouths.  If the pieces are small enough there is the potential they can swallow them from time to time, which would rip apart their intestines.  The rough uneven texture also means more potential for it to get stuck and not be passed vs a smooth piece of gravel that can pass through and come out the other end.  I would never use such a thing as a substrate for any fish known to dig or mess around in the substrate as a habitual instinct.  Goldfish and cichlids are the top 2 on that list. 

Dawn
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55835 From: megablasto2000 Date: 4/1/2014
Subject: Re: Opinions on lava rock for freshwater aquariums
Thanks, everyone.  No lava rock for me.

-Ken B.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55836 From: Lorraine Murphy Date: 4/1/2014
Subject: fish stuck to filter

I’ve been having trouble with fish getting stuck to the intake of my power filter.  What can I do to cage it to stop this?  Any ideas?

 

Laurie

Group: AquaticLife Message: 55837 From: sevenspringss Date: 4/1/2014
Subject: Re: fish stuck to filter
AOL Email
Hi Laurie,
 
Put a foam pre-filter in your intake.
 
Ray
 
 
In a message dated 4/2/2014 12:00:08 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, trinityfarms@... writes:
 

I’ve been having trouble with fish getting stuck to the intake of my power filter.  What can I do to cage it to stop this?  Any ideas?

Laurie

Group: AquaticLife Message: 55838 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 4/2/2014
Subject: Re: fish stuck to filter
Hi Laurie,

  Depending on your specific arrangements you could also use a piece of pantyhose secured across the inlet although this would only allow the finest debris through therefore reducing the  effectiveness  of the filtration system.  Another idea would be to make additional holes in the inlet nozzle/pipe to reduce the suction on any one hole.

 John<o)))<


On 2 April 2014 06:08, <sevenspringss1@...> wrote:
 

Hi Laurie,
 
Put a foam pre-filter in your intake.
 
Ray
 
 
In a message dated 4/2/2014 12:00:08 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, trinityfarms@... writes:
 

I’ve been having trouble with fish getting stuck to the intake of my power filter.  What can I do to cage it to stop this?  Any ideas?

Laurie


Group: AquaticLife Message: 55839 From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c Date: 4/2/2014
Subject: Re: Ciclids
I am wondering what type of filter this is and what species of fish are getting stuck to the intake?  Something sounds wrong unless these are fry?  A healthy mature (or even semi mature) fish should not be getting stuck to the average filter be it HOB, internal, canister, etc. even without covering the intake.  Can you provide more information please?
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55840 From: Angela Cancilla Herschel Date: 4/2/2014
Subject: New Betta
 Any suggestions for best care of a new male Betta ?  Any lighting, aquatic plants or gravel suggestions ...and just how often to change the large bowl of water?  Also would feeding him a bit of brine frozen shrimp be best or just part of a diet you  recommend?  My grand daughter got him as a  surprise  gift for her birthday and believe me it was a surprise for all of us !  So we want to do everything best for him from the start. 
_______________________________________________
Ciao, Angela Cancilla Herschel in SoCal

Being kind is more important ..than being important. ~
Any good animal trainer knows the science of positive
 reinforcement includes .... people too.
 And always try for most positive least intrusive methods. ~
California Wildlife Center,volunteer wildlife warrior
www.cawildlife.org
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55841 From: sevenspringss Date: 4/2/2014
Subject: Re: New Betta
AOL Email
Hi Angela,
 
Well, right from the start, I see you're under the wrong impression as to what the most ideal container to keep this fish in for its best quality of life would be.  While Bettas may be able to be kept in a "bowl," if only because they can breathe air and will survive in tight quarters because of this reason, they're still like any other fish when it comes to your wanting to duplicate an environment as close to their natural habitat as can be offered.  Many caring hobbyist give their Bettas a minimum of a five gallon aquarium to ensure them a habitat where they may live a life in the most natural manner and without creating a cage of boredom.  Even a two and a half gallon tank would be better than a bowl, though less than ideal, but if an animal must be kept in confinement, maintaining it in a living room rather than in the closet would be much more humane.
 
Any type of lighting that's normally sold as a hood or fixture for this tank would be appropriate, although here one must take into consideration how much light is really needed -- as being used -- and not being employed to encourage the growth of algae.  For this reason, unless the tank is densely planted, strong lighting must be eliminated in favor of more normal lumins.  Some plants to consider would include Dwarf Sword Plants, Vallisneria, Anubias, Java Fern, Hygrophilla, Bacopa and Cryptocorynes as examples, but it all depends on your water parameters as to which plants would be best suited to your tank.  Having a (liquid) master test kit available at your disposal for this and other needed purposes is always a recommendation and a worthwhile investment to monitor your water's composition at any time, as is often needed to determine for a variety of reasons. 
 
Most fishes, including Bettas, don't have much particular preferences for any one type(s) of plants, but you should go with aquatic plants that do best in your water's conditions.  Here, while taking your water parameters into consideration in growing plants most suited to the the hardness and pH, your own preferences of plants that will do best in your conditions would be the way to go, as aquascaping the tank in a setting that best fits a concept of what you'd envision you'd like to create as a emulating a natural environment -- and here you can be flexible; your Betta will most likely enjoy it since it will offer some variety in it's surroundings.
 
The gravel you choose would be best kept with this same concept in mind, and one that does not alter the water's chemistry as some might.  When in doubt, falling back on the tried and true #3 grade commercial aquarium gravel would never be a choice that would be very far from a more preferable substrate for your purposes.  It would fit right in with a natural aquarium's needs.  Of course, this is not the only type of gravel you could choose, but you don't want a substrate that's much coarser -- as this would allow excess food to accumulate within its depth -- and you don't want a substrate that's much finer -- as this may restrict the growth of the plants' roots.  While you still need a gravel that's easily cleanable when doing your weekly maintenance chores (like gravel vacuuming), you could use a gravel that's been artificially colored if this is your preference, but a color that's too far removed from being more subtle may likely wear on you over time.  There are aqua-colored gravels and similar blue, green and other pleasing tones if these are more to your liking as opposed to the more natural colors -- and there are reputable companies such as Estee which supply them (and which have been supplying them for over 50 years) -- but their novelty may only last on you for a limited amount of time.
 
Foods such as frozen Brine Shrimp are ideal when fed sparingly and not overfed to the extent that much of it falls to the bottom, uneaten.  Then to, along with this food, others should be offered as a variety.  All fishes need a varied diet to ensure that they are receiving all their needed nutrients; one single food, such as Brine Shrimp, should never be offered as their sole diet even if it's high in nutrition (which Brine Shrimp is not especially known to be, in including all of a diet's necessities).  Not withstanding, Brine Shrimp is still a good food, but just doesn't offer all of a fish's needs.  You may include such dry foods as "Betta Bits," and may also consider frozen Mysis shrimp, bloodworms, mosquito larvae (a food natural to Bettas in their wild environment) and glass larvae.  There are other dry foods to consider and once in a while live foods might be included, which are relished by the fish and which breaks up any possible monotony in their diet if a more mundane diet is offered.  With a Bettas diet, it must be considered that by nature, they're carnivores (insectivores) rather than herbivores so foods including somewhat more protein may be offered.
 
Normally, as part of a weekly aquarium maintenance regimen, a PWC (partial water change) must be done.  At these times, generally no more than about 20% of the water should be exchanged for tanks sparsely stocked such as this, but it should be done regularly as part of maintaining the fish and its environment in optimum health.  Needless to say, a good water conditioner should be used at this same time.  You could consider adding a couple of small Corydoras Catfish to this tank, which would still not be considered overstocked and they'll help clean up any excess food that falls to the bottom. As these catfish enjoy the company of their own kind, they're best kept as more than just one in the tank.  
 
Ray
         
 
In a message dated 4/2/2014 7:28:44 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, angelasfeathers@... writes:
 

 Any suggestions for best care of a new male Betta ?  Any lighting, aquatic plants or gravel suggestions ...and just how often to change the large bowl of water?  Also would feeding him a bit of brine frozen shrimp be best or just part of a diet you  recommend?  My grand daughter got him as a  surprise  gift for her birthday and believe me it was a surprise for all of us !  So we want to do everything best for him from the start. 
_______________________________________________
Ciao, Angela Cancilla Herschel in SoCal

Being kind is more important ..than being important. ~
Any good animal trainer knows the science of positive
 reinforcement includes .... people too.
 And always try for most positive least intrusive methods. ~
California Wildlife Center,volunteer wildlife warrior
www.cawildlife.org

Group: AquaticLife Message: 55843 From: sevenspringss Date: 4/14/2014
Subject: Re: 5ft tank (DIY background)
AOL Email
Alasse,
 
Looks real nice with that new background.  Obviously, this is before you've added any fish or shrimp.  It is on the sparse side as for being planted so I'm wondering if you plan on adding any more to that one lonely one at the far left.  We've had real rock internal backgrounds in the hobby in the past and something like this is always visually outstanding.  Unless these backgrounds are sealed off from the water column though, small fish almost always eventually find their way behind it and get trapped.  I hope you've taken this precaution to seal it off to the glass ends with silicone sealant to prevent this chance possibility.  Also, while I can't get a true view of your substrate's consistency, from this distance it does appear to be of a finer (smaller) grade, almost like sand.  If this is what you have, it will be counterproductive for growing plants as it compacts too much, preventing proper root growth.  That long tank underneath should be excellent for BN fry growout.  (please sign your posts).
 
Ray 
   
 
In a message dated 4/14/2014 9:05:30 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, alasse_au@... writes:
 

Not long finished the new background for my 5ft. Tis now filled and has about 30-40 endlers in it + about 10 or so cherry shrimp (these will become food for  final inhabitants more than likely)

http://i1231.photobucket.com/albums/ee514/BecLeeFotos/Fish%20Tanks/350litre%205ft%20tank/DSC01771.jpg

The tanks underneath are new and will become home to some albino BN & fry (also red cherry shrimp) and some common BN & fry (also yellow cherry shrimp)

Group: AquaticLife Message: 55844 From: megablasto2000 Date: 4/16/2014
Subject: Under the tank: to foam, or not to foam?
That is the question.  ;)

Just got a new 50 gallon tank.  It currently sits empty because I'm unsure whether to install foam underneath the tank or not.  It is a black plastic-rimmed tank from PetSmart.  The plastic rim lifts the bottom pane of glass  about 1/2" from the side panes.  There is a plastic strip (part of the black plastic rim) that goes across the center of the bottom pane, but still does not fill up to 1/2" on the bottom (it might be about 1/4" thick only).

Anyway, there seems to be no solid consensus about foaming among the various sites and forums I've looked up, so far.  One person even suggested that foaming the bottom of a rimmed tank might even weaken the tank seals.  Another person said he has seen his friend's tanks leak, and they were always NOT foamed underneath.

In my mind, 500 lbs. of water sitting on a 1/4" thick glass seems like asking for trouble. My aquarium stand is more than strong enough and flat to support 500 lbs. of water.  But then again, I wouldn't think that manufacturers would make a tank that will leak after filling it with 50 gallons of water.  Then again...this is a cheapy tank.  According to glass thickness safety calculators, this glass thickness for 50 gallons is listed as "safe" but not "very safe".  Worse, I'm not even sure of exactly how thick the bottom pane of glass is, since the black plastic rim covers the edges completely.  I'm only guessing that it is the same as the other panes (1/4" thick).

What do you guys think?

-Ken B.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55845 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 4/16/2014
Subject: Re: Under the tank: to foam, or not to foam?
Hi Ken,

  Not come across this situation before, could you possibly send us a couple of photos of the bottom? I do know there are some tanks sold for reptile or small mammal use which are not as thick or strong as aquatic tanks but are still calibrated for size in gallons/litres etc. I certainly share your concerns about the weight of water suspended on nothing but a picture or two may answer the question.

  John<o)))<


On 16 April 2014 20:57, <megablasto2000@...> wrote:
 

That is the question.  ;)

Just got a new 50 gallon tank.  It currently sits empty because I'm unsure whether to install foam underneath the tank or not.  It is a black plastic-rimmed tank from PetSmart.  The plastic rim lifts the bottom pane of glass  about 1/2" from the side panes.  There is a plastic strip (part of the black plastic rim) that goes across the center of the bottom pane, but still does not fill up to 1/2" on the bottom (it might be about 1/4" thick only).

Anyway, there seems to be no solid consensus about foaming among the various sites and forums I've looked up, so far.  One person even suggested that foaming the bottom of a rimmed tank might even weaken the tank seals.  Another person said he has seen his friend's tanks leak, and they were always NOT foamed underneath.

In my mind, 500 lbs. of water sitting on a 1/4" thick glass seems like asking for trouble. My aquarium stand is more than strong enough and flat to support 500 lbs. of water.  But then again, I wouldn't think that manufacturers would make a tank that will leak after filling it with 50 gallons of water.  Then again...this is a cheapy tank.  According to glass thickness safety calculators, this glass thickness for 50 gallons is listed as "safe" but not "very safe".  Worse, I'm not even sure of exactly how thick the bottom pane of glass is, since the black plastic rim covers the edges completely.  I'm only guessing that it is the same as the other panes (1/4" thick).

What do you guys think?

-Ken B.


Group: AquaticLife Message: 55846 From: Just Micky Date: 4/16/2014
Subject: Re: Under the tank: to foam, or not to foam?
This is a very common configuration.  Both manufactures that sell in the Midwest do this.  This tank is strong enough.  The Stand is strong enough.
 
The problem is some stands are not square.  The empty tanks rocks a little.  Filling the tank may warp it and eventfully cause the seals to break and leak.
 
Foam, I like foam core board from the art department is sufficient.  Sometimes I use half inch.
 
The foam will give enough to take up the slack and still be solid enough to support the tank.
 
Its not usually necessary.  But I like it.
 
Micky
 
 
Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 3:38 PM
Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Under the tank: to foam, or not to foam?
 


Hi Ken,

  Not come across this situation before, could you possibly send us a couple of photos of the bottom? I do know there are some tanks sold for reptile or small mammal use which are not as thick or strong as aquatic tanks but are still calibrated for size in gallons/litres etc. I certainly share your concerns about the weight of water suspended on nothing but a picture or two may answer the question.

  John<o)))<


On 16 April 2014 20:57, <megablasto2000@...> wrote:
 

That is the question.  ;)

Just got a new 50 gallon tank.  It currently sits empty because I'm unsure whether to install foam underneath the tank or not.  It is a black plastic-rimmed tank from PetSmart.  The plastic rim lifts the bottom pane of glass  about 1/2" from the side panes.  There is a plastic strip (part of the black plastic rim) that goes across the center of the bottom pane, but still does not fill up to 1/2" on the bottom (it might be about 1/4" thick only).

Anyway, there seems to be no solid consensus about foaming among the various sites and forums I've looked up, so far.  One person even suggested that foaming the bottom of a rimmed tank might even weaken the tank seals.  Another person said he has seen his friend's tanks leak, and they were always NOT foamed underneath.

In my mind, 500 lbs. of water sitting on a 1/4" thick glass seems like asking for trouble. My aquarium stand is more than strong enough and flat to support 500 lbs. of water.  But then again, I wouldn't think that manufacturers would make a tank that will leak after filling it with 50 gallons of water.  Then again...this is a cheapy tank.  According to glass thickness safety calculators, this glass thickness for 50 gallons is listed as "safe" but not "very safe".  Worse, I'm not even sure of exactly how thick the bottom pane of glass is, since the black plastic rim covers the edges completely.  I'm only guessing that it is the same as the other panes (1/4" thick).

What do you guys think?

-Ken B.

 
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55847 From: megablasto2000 Date: 4/16/2014
Subject: Re: Under the tank: to foam, or not to foam?
I tried uploading photos to the photos section of this group.  Does it work?  Because I uploaded twice, and it still says the folder is empty.

-Ken B.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55848 From: sevenspringss Date: 4/16/2014
Subject: Re: Under the tank: to foam, or not to foam?
AOL Email
Ken,
 
Aquariums are designed and manufactured so that the bottom glass is supported only by the plastic frame that surrounds it on four sides, held above any surface that the tank may rest on -- and some stands don't even have a top surface; their top is completely open.  If this were a problem, then there would be many tanks that would leak or fail completely.  They are just not designed to have the glass bottom rest on a stand surface, and apparently this must be considered safe by the manufacturers by now or they wouldn't continue using this design. 
 
I'm sure that the bottom glass of a 50 gallon tank can't just be 1/4" plate glass -- and I'm not just guessing this, I'm sure of it as I've already tried it; it will support 45 gallons though at the same dimensions.  While a 55 gallon tank has a tempered glass bottom, a 50 gallon tank does not, however.  For this reason alone, it needs to be thicker than 1/4".  I note your statement of this being a "cheapy tank" though, but I do not know at all exactly what is meant by this.  As John points out, there are very similar looking tanks on the market, sold as reptile tanks.  They are advertised not to be used as aquariums; their glass is much thinner than what's needed to support large volumes of water.If you're sure your's is an aquarium and not a terrarium, then it should be safe to hold water.   I don't know what you mean by not "very safe" either, if that's what it's advertised as. 
 
I've seen a number of discussions, even on here, on the "merits" of placing styrofoam under a tank first, before setting it down on a stand -- to "even out the support" it's being given even where surfaces are uneven.  Only a dreamer hoping that this would work would believe it.  Using an example, with a tank that perhaps has one corner which does not rest completely on the stand's top surface, but has a slight gap, the foam places under the whole tank will compress -- even under this corner's gap -- and will fill that slight gap's distance (as now compressed).  Do you really think that's supporting this corner?  The foam that's under the rest of the tank where there was never any gap will be compressed (completely) as much as it's possible for foam to be compressed, since this part of the tank never had a gap between it and the stand's top surface. 
 
Now, if foam can be compressed that much under the full weight of the tank where no gap existed, and the foam underneath where the slight gap once existed under this one corner compresses only enough to fill that gap's distance -- no matter how tightly it seems that its been compressed -- the fact that the foam was compressed completely under most of the rest of the tank shows that the foam filling the gap can be compressed more if there were not gap there.  It is NOT supporting the tank as though that corner were resting on solid wood.  Yes, since the foam is compressed, this shows that force (weight) has been exerted and that it's now exerting force back from being compressed -- but it's NOT fully compressed -- so, it's not exerting a full force as when it's completely compressed (it's not fully supporting that corner).  If you were to lift that tank and put a 0.10" shim between that corner and the foam, then let it down again to rest on the foam, it would compress the foam more -- showing that the foam was never completely compressed nor completely supporting that corner; it still had some "give" to it.  Using styrofoam to even out a tank's weigh on a stand's surface is a myth.    
 
Ray
 
 
In a message dated 4/16/2014 4:45:01 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, megablasto2000@... writes:
 

That is the question.  ;)

Just got a new 50 gallon tank.  It currently sits empty because I'm unsure whether to install foam underneath the tank or not.  It is a black plastic-rimmed tank from PetSmart.  The plastic rim lifts the bottom pane of glass  about 1/2" from the side panes.  There is a plastic strip (part of the black plastic rim) that goes across the center of the bottom pane, but still does not fill up to 1/2" on the bottom (it might be about 1/4" thick only).

Anyway, there seems to be no solid consensus about foaming among the various sites and forums I've looked up, so far.  One person even suggested that foaming the bottom of a rimmed tank might even weaken the tank seals.  Another person said he has seen his friend's tanks leak, and they were always NOT foamed underneath.

In my mind, 500 lbs. of water sitting on a 1/4" thick glass seems like asking for trouble. My aquarium stand is more than strong enough and flat to support 500 lbs. of water.  But then again, I wouldn't think that manufacturers would make a tank that will leak after filling it with 50 gallons of water.  Then again...this is a cheapy tank.  According to glass thickness safety calculators, this glass thickness for 50 gallons is listed as "safe" but not "very safe".  Worse, I'm not even sure of exactly how thick the bottom pane of glass is, since the black plastic rim covers the edges completely.  I'm only guessing that it is the same as the other panes (1/4" thick).

What do you guys think?

-Ken B.

Group: AquaticLife Message: 55849 From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c Date: 4/17/2014
Subject: Re: Under the tank: to foam, or not to foam?
I couldn't have said it better than Ray already has.  My husband works for an aquarium manufacturer and he has told many people basically the same thing as Ray has said here... styrofoam under any tank will NOT support or help to distribute the weight, and thus is even more dangerous than using nothing because it provides a false sense of security.  If a tank on the stand does not sit level then the STAND must be leveled, never the tank.  If a tank doesn't sit level on the stand itself then there is something wrong with the stand and it should not be trusted or used to support the weight of an aquarium.  Anytime someone attempts to level a tank itself on the stand they need to be prepared for that tank to crack/break at some point.  It isn't a matter of if, it's a matter of when.  A tank as large as 50 gallons will cause a LOT of damage when it breaks, not just water damage but there is the potential for glass to literally explode outward, sending flying shards of glass in every direction.  (and in case you're wondering, yes I have seen this happen... have seen glass shards stick into drywall the same way a knife would stick if thrown with that kind of force.)  That can be deadly.  Please don't do this.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55850 From: sevenspringss Date: 4/17/2014
Subject: Re: Under the tank: to foam, or not to foam?
AOL Email
Hi Dawn,
 
I'm glad my description was clear enough as I was concerned that perhaps it might not have been totally understandable.  It's difficult to properly explain, especially to those who believe that a styrofoam filler would be taking the weight of the tank equally in evening out any stress where its bottom doesn't meet the stand, as though supporting it where any gap may have been.  But to reiterate for others, if the foam isn't completely compressed -- as in the case where it's only being mostly compressed within a gap, then it's merely a "filler" since the mostly compressed foam is not solid enough to be supporting weight.  That the foam has compressed more where there's no gap is proof-positive that it can be compressed more, so "mostly-compressed" foam is not firmly supporting weight, it's just partially crushed, albeit down to almost its furthest extent -- but it's still not solid enough in a gap at that point.  This goes for ANY material that's used as a weight-evener/distributor; it's only a gap filler wherever the bottom has space between it and the stand.
 
Ray 
 
 
In a message dated 4/17/2014 5:20:37 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, dawnshungryeyes4u2c@... writes:
 

I couldn't have said it better than Ray already has.  My husband works for an aquarium manufacturer and he has told many people basically the same thing as Ray has said here... styrofoam under any tank will NOT support or help to distribute the weight, and thus is even more dangerous than using nothing because it provides a false sense of security.  If a tank on the stand does not sit level then the STAND must be leveled, never the tank.  If a tank doesn't sit level on the stand itself then there is something wrong with the stand and it should not be trusted or used to support the weight of an aquarium.  Anytime someone attempts to level a tank itself on the stand they need to be prepared for that tank to crack/break at some point.  It isn't a matter of if, it's a matter of when.  A tank as large as 50 gallons will cause a LOT of damage when it breaks, not just water damage but there is the potential for glass to literally explode outward, sending flying shards of glass in every direction.  (and in case you're wondering, yes I have seen this happen... have seen glass shards stick into drywall the same way a knife would stick if thrown with that kind of force.)  That can be deadly.  Please don't do this.

Group: AquaticLife Message: 55851 From: jett07002 Date: 4/17/2014
Subject: Re: Under the tank: to foam, or not to foam?

Hello, Everybody:

What Ray is telling you about the foam is true.  It is not supporting the tank.  In other words, if there is a weak rim on the support stand I certainly would not use foam to help support the tank because the rim on the stand is weak.

In my past experience.....(I never used foam under my tanks)........some of the guys use to use foam because the tank would not rest true on the stand and they wanted to take up some space so the tank would not twist or crack.  In my opinion, they only saw this movement when the tank was empty.  When you fill it with water and it gets heavier, it will not move anymore.   I am talking slight differences here.  If you have a big gap between the tank and the support stand you will sure have to use another stand or wood to even out the tanks resting place.  I sure would not use foam to "support" that tank.


joe t

Group: AquaticLife Message: 55852 From: ptimlin Date: 4/17/2014
Subject: Re: Under the tank: to foam, or not to foam?
Did you buy this tank brand new? If so, then if it is made to be an aquarium it will either have thick enough glass to support the water or the glass with be tempered so they could go with thinner glass but in almost all cases of tempered galss there should be a sticker on the bottom glass saying it is tempered and to NOT drill the bottom plate.

As to putting something under the tank, the tank should be supported by the plastic frame. Some people say if you put something under the plastic tank it helps to spread the weight is there are any uneven points in the frame or in the stand that would case a stress point. However, plastic frames are normally siliconed to the bottom of the tank and in my opinion the silicone is probably enough to help even out the forces applied to the glass itself.

Yes, tanks can and do leak and in almost all cases, anyone's specific guess as to why it leaked (it was on foam, it wasn't on foam, etc.) is probably nothing more than a guess. In other words, it is all anecdotal evidence which may or may not have anything to do with why the tank leaked.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55853 From: sevenspringss Date: 4/17/2014
Subject: Re: Under the tank: to foam, or not to foam?
AOL Email
Hello Joe,
 
This is exactly my point.  Those guys whom you say used to use foam to take up some space, were only doing just that -- taking up some space (filling the gap without actually giving the tank support under the area where a gap was present).  They were deluding themselves into thinking that once that gap was filled, that the foam (even somewhat compressed) was now supporting the tank in that area; WRONGO.  As you just said, when you fill the tank with water and it gets heavier, it will not move, especially larger tanks.  Many larger tanks -- even stainless steel frame tanks -- will even themselves out to meet the supporting stand as the weight of the water will act down on all four corners regardless if there's a gap at one corner or not -- and the water's weight will twist the tank ever so slightly so that all four corners are even with the top of the stand.  Foam, (ANY kind of foam) or any other similar material in the area of any gap will not prevent the tank from twisting and weighing that corner down (distorting the tank) in the area of the gap; the foam will only be compressed but most often not solidly.  With heavier tanks, when the foam in the gap is crushed solidly, the tank has then already distorted, so it's of no real help.  
 
The frame on smaller stainless steel frame tanks are sometimes strong enough to prevent this distortion, and here I'm talking about no more than 5 gallons, as the weigh at any one corner is only about 10 pounds, but once you get to 15 gallons and larger, even a steel-framed tank will not prevent twisting.  The only way to prevent this twisting is to level the stand evenly with the bottom of the tank.  To not do so causes lateral stress in the silicone joints, with one side glass exerting a downward force while the end glass meeting it is exerting an upward force -- WHILE the bottom glass is forced to bow (concave).  The joints may last a while in this position, but sooner or later they WILL fail.  Thin wood shims in place of the foam before the tank is filled, under the corner with the gap, would give solid support (albeit, only in one small area), but this is not the proper way to correct this problem.  It's only to illustrate that wood will provide support, whereas foam won't. 
 
Ray
      
 
In a message dated 4/17/2014 11:19:59 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, jett07002@... writes:
 

Hello, Everybody:

What Ray is telling you about the foam is true.  It is not supporting the tank.  In other words, if there is a weak rim on the support stand I certainly would not use foam to help support the tank because the rim on the stand is weak.

In my past experience.....(I never used foam under my tanks)........some of the guys use to use foam because the tank would not rest true on the stand and they wanted to take up some space so the tank would not twist or crack.  In my opinion, they only saw this movement when the tank was empty.  When you fill it with water and it gets heavier, it will not move anymore.   I am talking slight differences here.  If you have a big gap between the tank and the support stand you will sure have to use another stand or wood to even out the tanks resting place.  I sure would not use foam to "support" that tank.


joe t

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Group: AquaticLife Message: 55854 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 4/17/2014
Subject: Re: Under the tank: to foam, or not to foam?
A very interesting thread-I was always been under the impression that foam was a good way to go for evening out the imperfections in the meeting of glass tank base & stand. I've done it my self in some of my previous smaller tanks. I completely get the solid shim idea now that it has been mentioned. My current 100 gallon is acrylic & all one piece standing on a flatbed unit exactly the same base area-all that is between the tank & unit is a layer of black felt & that is only there for cosmetic reasons so the bottom appears black & not walnut coloured if the fish clear a patch of gravel.

  John<o)))<


On 17 April 2014 18:55, <sevenspringss1@...> wrote:
 

Hello Joe,
 
This is exactly my point.  Those guys whom you say used to use foam to take up some space, were only doing just that -- taking up some space (filling the gap without actually giving the tank support under the area where a gap was present).  They were deluding themselves into thinking that once that gap was filled, that the foam (even somewhat compressed) was now supporting the tank in that area; WRONGO.  As you just said, when you fill the tank with water and it gets heavier, it will not move, especially larger tanks.  Many larger tanks -- even stainless steel frame tanks -- will even themselves out to meet the supporting stand as the weight of the water will act down on all four corners regardless if there's a gap at one corner or not -- and the water's weight will twist the tank ever so slightly so that all four corners are even with the top of the stand.  Foam, (ANY kind of foam) or any other similar material in the area of any gap will not prevent the tank from twisting and weighing that corner down (distorting the tank) in the area of the gap; the foam will only be compressed but most often not solidly.  With heavier tanks, when the foam in the gap is crushed solidly, the tank has then already distorted, so it's of no real help.  
 
The frame on smaller stainless steel frame tanks are sometimes strong enough to prevent this distortion, and here I'm talking about no more than 5 gallons, as the weigh at any one corner is only about 10 pounds, but once you get to 15 gallons and larger, even a steel-framed tank will not prevent twisting.  The only way to prevent this twisting is to level the stand evenly with the bottom of the tank.  To not do so causes lateral stress in the silicone joints, with one side glass exerting a downward force while the end glass meeting it is exerting an upward force -- WHILE the bottom glass is forced to bow (concave).  The joints may last a while in this position, but sooner or later they WILL fail.  Thin wood shims in place of the foam before the tank is filled, under the corner with the gap, would give solid support (albeit, only in one small area), but this is not the proper way to correct this problem.  It's only to illustrate that wood will provide support, whereas foam won't. 
 
Ray
      
 
In a message dated 4/17/2014 11:19:59 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, jett07002@... writes:
 

Hello, Everybody:

What Ray is telling you about the foam is true.  It is not supporting the tank.  In other words, if there is a weak rim on the support stand I certainly would not use foam to help support the tank because the rim on the stand is weak.

In my past experience.....(I never used foam under my tanks)........some of the guys use to use foam because the tank would not rest true on the stand and they wanted to take up some space so the tank would not twist or crack.  In my opinion, they only saw this movement when the tank was empty.  When you fill it with water and it gets heavier, it will not move anymore.   I am talking slight differences here.  If you have a big gap between the tank and the support stand you will sure have to use another stand or wood to even out the tanks resting place.  I sure would not use foam to "support" that tank.


joe t

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Group: AquaticLife Message: 55855 From: Martin TeBrake Date: 4/18/2014
Subject: New member
Hi am sending this email so that I can become a member of the group. 

My email is mtmtebrake2@...

Thanks, 
Martin TeBrake
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55856 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 4/18/2014
Subject: Re: New member
Hi Martin,

  Welcome to the group.

  John<o)))<


On 18 April 2014 22:54, Martin TeBrake <mtmtebrake2@...> wrote:
 

Hi am sending this email so that I can become a member of the group. 

My email is mtmtebrake2@...

Thanks, 
Martin TeBrake


Group: AquaticLife Message: 55857 From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c Date: 4/19/2014
Subject: Re: Under the tank: to foam, or not to foam?
Actually, when tanks break there are ways to determine the cause of the break based on the location, pattern, size, and depth of the crack/break.  Manufacturers do this regularly to determine if they are liable for replacement and damages in cases of broken tanks.  It's not guess work, there is some science behind it.  An uneven surface that cracks a tank will produce different results than a tank that breaks because something was dropped into/on it, and those both differ from a tank that breaks because of a weakened seal... which differs from a break due to rapid temperature fluctuation, etc.  I have learned a lot since my husband has worked for a manufacturer for so many yrs, and have seen the photos and heard the explanations many times over.  They deal all the time with people who call and lie to them just to get freebies.  It happens daily.  That is why they require photos and information before they will even begin to process a claim.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55858 From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c Date: 4/19/2014
Subject: Re: Under the tank: to foam, or not to foam?
I forgot to sign my last post about the determinations in breakage of a tank... oops, sorry. 

Ray, I felt your explanation was right on the money... a little confusing the way you described it, but after reading through it slowly, I found it to be completely accurate.  :-)
I'd also like to mention that putting foam (or any other material) under a tank to fill in gaps/unevenness will void it's warranty (if it's a new tank or still in the possession of the original owner).  Every manufacturer will tell you to level the stand, never the tank on the stand.  Because glass doesn't warp like plastic does, if there is a gap between a corner of the tank and the stand then there is a problem with the stand, not the tank.

Dawn 
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55859 From: sevenspringss Date: 4/19/2014
Subject: Re: New member
AOL Email
Hi Martin,
 
Welcome to the group, glad to have you here.  You probably couldn't have come to a more informative site as we have many knowledgeable members here who can guide you.  Likewise, we're hoping that you can add to this info base.  You'll find that the group is not nearly as active as it once was not too long ago, but then the activity on Yahoo groups in general (including the other aquarium-related groups) have dwindled.  This may be due in part to Yahoo's new "Neo" format, which many find unfriendly to use, or may be due to the popularity of Facebook, I just don't know.  Still, we remain the largest Yahoo aquarium group going, with 3481 members, a few having dropped out since Neo came in and a few others joining.  So, we're all here to answer any questions you may have.  In the meantime, feel free to browse the archives, if you can navigate Neo and enjoy your (hopefully) long stay here.
 
Ray -- One of your moderators
 
 
In a message dated 4/18/2014 6:58:20 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, mtmtebrake2@... writes:
 

Hi am sending this email so that I can become a member of the group. 

My email is mtmtebrake2@...

Thanks, 
Martin TeBrake

Group: AquaticLife Message: 55860 From: sevenspringss Date: 4/19/2014
Subject: Re: Under the tank: to foam, or not to foam?
AOL Email
Science is always fascinating, even that which determines how an aquarium has broken.
 
Ray
 
 
In a message dated 4/19/2014 3:08:12 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, dawnshungryeyes4u2c@... writes:
 

Actually, when tanks break there are ways to determine the cause of the break based on the location, pattern, size, and depth of the crack/break.  Manufacturers do this regularly to determine if they are liable for replacement and damages in cases of broken tanks.  It's not guess work, there is some science behind it.  An uneven surface that cracks a tank will produce different results than a tank that breaks because something was dropped into/on it, and those both differ from a tank that breaks because of a weakened seal... which differs from a break due to rapid temperature fluctuation, etc.  I have learned a lot since my husband has worked for a manufacturer for so many yrs, and have seen the photos and heard the explanations many times over.  They deal all the time with people who call and lie to them just to get freebies.  It happens daily.  That is why they require photos and information before they will even begin to process a claim.

Group: AquaticLife Message: 55861 From: sevenspringss Date: 4/19/2014
Subject: Re: Under the tank: to foam, or not to foam?
AOL Email
As I've said before, it's not an easy concept to explain, especially to those preferring to believe otherwise.  Thanks for coming to this same conclusion, that this explanation is exactly what's happening with stress in uneven corners.  It can be confusing in trying to explain, but I tried to demonstrate it from every aspect I could think of while still making it comprehendible. Good point that "leveling" a tank and not the stand will void its warranty.  Must be a (obvious) good reason for that, as you pointed out.  Oh, don't be at all concerned about missing one signing in hundreds; we all know who you are by now.
 
Ray
 
 
In a message dated 4/19/2014 3:16:05 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, dawnshungryeyes4u2c@... writes:
 

I forgot to sign my last post about the determinations in breakage of a tank... oops, sorry. 

Ray, I felt your explanation was right on the money... a little confusing the way you described it, but after reading through it slowly, I found it to be completely accurate.  :-)
I'd also like to mention that putting foam (or any other material) under a tank to fill in gaps/unevenness will void it's warranty (if it's a new tank or still in the possession of the original owner).  Every manufacturer will tell you to level the stand, never the tank on the stand.  Because glass doesn't warp like plastic does, if there is a gap between a corner of the tank and the stand then there is a problem with the stand, not the tank.

Dawn 

Group: AquaticLife Message: 55864 From: Harry Perry Date: 4/19/2014
Subject: Re: 5ft tank (DIY background)
You don't have to sign anything. The owner only cares that your here and participating.
I asked him.
Harry, a moderator
--------------------------------------------

There are fish and shrimp in the tank when that
photo was taken. Very difficult to see because as stated
they are endlers and cherry shrimp (tiny critters)
Its not been fully set up as yet lol I've not
long filled it, give me time to get it properly setup with
décor lol. The tank will be planted over time, not easy
(or cheap) to get my hands on enough plants to fill a 5ft in
one go. Also still on the lookout for wood that I like.

The background isn't real rock, it is foam and cement
and is completely sealed. The substrate will support plants
no problems, used it before.
This is a work in progress, I was merely sharing the
background being finally finished and the tank ready to move
on with.
Alasse (why I have to sign this is beyond me when
each post states who is posting it!)
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55865 From: sevenspringss Date: 4/19/2014
Subject: Re: 5ft tank (DIY background)
AOL Email
No, it's no necessary, but it's appreciated that posters sign and is the cordial thing to do in maintaining an amicable atmosphere on the group rather than being complete strangers to one another.  It promotes a definite feeling of camaraderie here which goes a long way in everyone's enjoyment of others' posts.  Some headers indicate the name of the member and others may not, but not everyone always looks at the headers.
 
Ray -- a moderator
 
 
In a message dated 4/19/2014 10:44:58 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, harryfisherman@... writes:
 

You don't have to sign anything. The owner only cares that your here and participating.
I asked him.
Harry, a moderator
--------------------------------------------

There are fish and shrimp in the tank when that
photo was taken. Very difficult to see because as stated
they are endlers and cherry shrimp (tiny critters)
Its not been fully set up as yet lol I've not
long filled it, give me time to get it properly setup with
décor lol. The tank will be planted over time, not easy
(or cheap) to get my hands on enough plants to fill a 5ft in
one go. Also still on the lookout for wood that I like.

The background isn't real rock, it is foam and cement
and is completely sealed. The substrate will support plants
no problems, used it before.
This is a work in progress, I was merely sharing the
background being finally finished and the tank ready to move
on with.
Alasse (why I have to sign this is beyond me when
each post states who is posting it!)







Group: AquaticLife Message: 55866 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 4/19/2014
Subject: Re: 5ft tank (DIY background)
Hi Alasse,

I see unsigned posts on other forums too & always look at the header so I can repond personally but headers don't always bear any apparent resemblance to the identity of the person sending the email.

  John


On 19 April 2014 16:20, <sevenspringss1@...> wrote:
 

No, it's no necessary, but it's appreciated that posters sign and is the cordial thing to do in maintaining an amicable atmosphere on the group rather than being complete strangers to one another.  It promotes a definite feeling of camaraderie here which goes a long way in everyone's enjoyment of others' posts.  Some headers indicate the name of the member and others may not, but not everyone always looks at the headers.
 
Ray -- a moderator
 
 
In a message dated 4/19/2014 10:44:58 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, harryfisherman@... writes:
 

You don't have to sign anything. The owner only cares that your here and participating.
I asked him.
Harry, a moderator
--------------------------------------------

There are fish and shrimp in the tank when that
photo was taken. Very difficult to see because as stated
they are endlers and cherry shrimp (tiny critters)
Its not been fully set up as yet lol I've not
long filled it, give me time to get it properly setup with
décor lol. The tank will be planted over time, not easy

(or cheap) to get my hands on enough plants to fill a 5ft in
one go. Also still on the lookout for wood that I like.

The background isn't real rock, it is foam and cement
and is completely sealed. The substrate will support plants
no problems, used it before.
This is a work in progress, I was merely sharing the
background being finally finished and the tank ready to move
on with.
Alasse (why I have to sign this is beyond me when
each post states who is posting it!)








Group: AquaticLife Message: 55868 From: Andy Mills Date: 4/20/2014
Subject: Questions about ramshorn snails
Hello, I've got a few questions about ramshorn snails. I've currently
got both red and black ramshorns, the red I've had since Christmas and
the black I only got last weekend. The black snails seem quite a bit
bigger than the reds, do all ramshorns get to the same size or are the
darker ones generally bigger. Are red and black ramshorn snails the
same species? Also, can the two types hybridise or will red breed with
red and black with black? If they can hybridise, what size and colour
are the young likely to be when fully grown? I know many people think
of these snails as pests but I must admit I've got a bit of a soft spot
for them, I find them quite interesting little things.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55869 From: sevenspringss Date: 4/20/2014
Subject: Re: 5ft tank (DIY background)
AOL Email
Signing is not required and nobody is forcing you to (and nobody wants to force you to).  Remaining aloof though, appears to many that one does not intend to become very friendly with the group of others whom they associate with and that they're standoffish -- even if that's not what you have in mind.  Most members here, except for some newcomers who haven't been made aware of this, do sign their names showing to the rest they have nothing to hide and preferring to be part of a group showing friendliness in a more thoughtfully intimate, warm, cordial and trusting manner.  Preferring to remain aloof gives the appearance of one who wants to remain distant from the rest -- even if that's not what that person means by this -- and may not necessarily bring forth greater efforts by others in giving the best help they can offer when a question comes up.  I'm not saying this to have you sign, but just to show you that this is human nature in any group situation, often as a reaction to how others appear to them.  The choice is yours and I'm guessing that at least part of your reason may be only to preserve your identity on a forum that's open to the world wide 'Net, where others (not even in the group) may compromise it.  Good malware and virus protection programs offer the best solutions to this as even without signing, others can easily hack your address if they want to.  Yahoo (Groups) doesn't provide any protection from this.   
 
Now, going back to one of your previous posts, I notice that you filled your 92 gallon (350 Liter) tank fairly recently when you said "I've not long filled it."  While i don't know specifically how long your tank's been filled, it looks like you may not be aware that a nitrogen cycle should be established first before adding any fish.  Since you already have Endler's (and apparently some Angels) and shrimp in there, I'd suggest adding any other fishes even more slowly to give the filter a chance to grow the beneficial nitrifying bacteria you'll need.  You do say that you'll be holding off on adding the rest of the Angels, which is a wise move in this case, but when you add them, don't add too many at once.  That you have 350 liters of water is a big plus in helping to establish this "cycle" slowly as this large water column and its filter assimilates your present small bioload of fish's waste products efficiently.  A cycle can usually take up to at least four and more often up to six weeks to get firmly established.
 
As you're already learning that it can be financially difficult to set up and populate an aquarium, it would be best if you held off on the Angels (or at least the majority of them) until the tank has been set up for around six weeks.  You can add one every week or so -- and by this, I'm assuming you mean small ones at around a 25 cent (quarter) size or smaller.  You haven't said how many you plan to add altogether though, which I'm sure some of us here may be curious about.      
 
In the meantime, the plants you're adding can only be an increasing asset to your tank, and will help use up (as food) some of your fish's waste products -- besides being esthetically pleasing.  A good investment would be to purchase a master test kit to help you monitor your water's parameters as the cycle gets established.  You'd need to check on the ammonia, nitrite and nitrate as it continues and a pH kit (that comes with it) is always handy when adding new fish, to help you know how long they need to be adjusted to your water.
 
Best of luck and don't hesitate to ask any questions if you have any; keep us informed.
 
Ray
 
 
In a message dated 4/20/2014 6:42:42 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, alasse_au@... writes:
 

I don't use my real name on here, Alasse is what I go by, and that is what shows in the header, so if its all good I wont sign as me each post. Anyway back onto the original part of the thread


I have added some more wood to the tank that I had stored in my pond, it prolly wont stay permanently as it is a different wood type than I want to use in here. So i'll be on the lookout for some more goldvine.

I picked up some java fern and a few more Vals for the tank. Hope to be picking up a few large Anubias for this next week all going well.

I've decided angels are heading into this tank, I have some but require more, so once I have the rest in the house they will all be added at the same tim. Holding off on adding them also gives the plants a bit of a chance to settle in too.

I now have heaters for the bottom tanks. I need to pick up one more sponge filter and then I can kick start these and move the BN over.


Getting there


Group: AquaticLife Message: 55871 From: sevenspringss Date: 4/20/2014
Subject: Re: 5ft tank (DIY background)
AOL Email
Thanks for filling in some pieces which you hadn't yet explained yet.  I really wasn't sure if you were a relative novice or experienced fish keeper only because you stated that your tank was not long filled up.  By that, it appeared that it may not have even been filled up for a long enough time to get your cycle established.  Since the tank is fully cycled, then it's probably been filled for at least about six weeks or so, which wasn't made clear.
 
Too, since it at first appeared that your tank may not have been cycled, if it hadn't have been filled for a sufficient amount of time, this was the reason I suggested your getting a master test kit as most hobbyists find them quite helpful during this stage.  There's no reason to delay adding more Angels at this point in time then, although depending on your three Angels' size (and your wanting to match the new ones to these), you might not want to add nine Angels all at once.
 
Just getting back to one's not signing for the moment, but not to dwell on it as I'm sure you have your reasons, I'd just like to add that some people see this as being rude and insulting, because they're open enough to sign their names but others aren't that forward with them.  It's like someone introducing themselves to someone else at a friendly gathering, giving them their name, and not receiving the other person's name back in return.  It's often taken as a snub regardless of the reason behind it. 
 
Now getting back to your tank(s), I think the large one on top looks great, especially with that background.  With the tank being so large, and the fish (Endlers) being so small, I just didn't see them, but then too, I didn't see the three Angelfish you mentioned.  I mistakenly thought you had one long tank on the bottom, but with having two separate tanks, they'll be more versatile.   It's really hard to determine the size of your gravel since the pic wasn't close-up, but I'm glad to hear it's not sand-like.  It does look great, also.  As for "overstocking" of any one species of Cichlids, while still keeping within the proper bioload for the tank, unless African mouthbrooders are being considered where this would be to the best advantage, most Cichlid hobbyists use dither fish to keep the aggression down -- it (overstocking) is not standard practice for keeping substrate spawners, although if obtaining a pair is the hobbyist's plan, one should start with at least six individuals as this will offer a 97% chance of getting at least one pair out of the six -- and if very lucky, three pairs.
 
Adding to this "overstocking" concept, I would point out here that as the numbers of Angelfish increase, the less likely that pairing will occur.  While there's always an exception to Angelfish's behavior, this result will be found to be the more prevalent, but then, your goal may not be to breed them but just maintain them for display which hasn't been indicated.  Again, best of luck.
 
Ray
 
 
In a message dated 4/20/2014 10:03:34 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, alasse_au@... writes:
 

Remaining aloof is not my reasoning, if that was the case I simply would not interact with the group at all. I am sharing my tanks and interacting with people here, if that is what people here class as aloof, then so be it :)


I am fully aware of the nitrogen cycle :) The tank is fully cycled, but thank you for the concern. I also already own a master testing kit :) Not a novice fishkeeper :)


I will be adding 10-12 angels to this tank (and yes I have had experience with keeping angels previously), I find overstocking keeps aggression to a minimum, as is standard practice with many cichlids.

I have 3 already, I need to order the rest to make up the 10-12 required, this is the only reason the angels have not been introduced as yet.

Group: AquaticLife Message: 55874 From: Harry Perry Date: 4/20/2014
Subject: Re: My gourami tank
Thanks for sharing.

Harry
--------------------------------------------

Tank - 34gal DisplayFiltration -
CanisterHeater - 200WSubstrate - Eco
complete/LateriteHardscape - Goldvine & rocks
from gardenPlants - Various anubias, Crypts,
Swords, Aponogeton Crispus, Hairgrass, Val &
WisteriaFertz - Dino Spit, Seachem Trace &
Seachem Flourish
http://i1231.photobucket.com/albums/ee514/BecLeeFotos/Fish%20Tanks/130litre%20All%20in%20one%20tank/25ftGourami16thMar20141b.jpg
Home to a gold angel, a pair of Platinum Gouramis, a
school of ember tetras, and oto. Currently temp housing 3
angels which are moving to another tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55875 From: Harry Perry Date: 4/20/2014
Subject: Re: My gourami tank
Do you have a problem with your Gouramis not lasting long. Supposedly Dwarf Gourami disease?.

Harry
--------------------------------------------

Tank - 34gal DisplayFiltration -
CanisterHeater - 200WSubstrate - Eco
complete/LateriteHardscape - Goldvine & rocks
from gardenPlants - Various anubias, Crypts,
Swords, Aponogeton Crispus, Hairgrass, Val &
WisteriaFertz - Dino Spit, Seachem Trace &
Seachem Flourish
http://i1231.photobucket.com/albums/ee514/BecLeeFotos/Fish%20Tanks/130litre%20All%20in%20one%20tank/25ftGourami16thMar20141b.jpg
Home to a gold angel, a pair of Platinum Gouramis, a
school of ember tetras, and oto. Currently temp housing 3
angels which are moving to another tank
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55878 From: Rusty Barfield Date: 4/21/2014
Subject: Re: My gourami tank
What a beautiful tank. Thanks for sharing.
Besides fertilizing you obviously have great lighting for the plants to thrive.

Rusty in Texas

On Apr 20, 2014, at 5:14 PM, alasse_au@... wrote:



Tank - 34gal Display

Filtration - Canister

Heater - 200W

Substrate - Eco complete/Laterite

Hardscape - Goldvine & rocks from garden

Plants - Various anubias, Crypts, Swords, Aponogeton Crispus, Hairgrass, Val & Wisteria

Fertz - Dino Spit, Seachem Trace & Seachem Flourish


http://i1231.photobucket.com/albums/ee514/BecLeeFotos/Fish%20Tanks/130litre%20All%20in%20one%20tank/25ftGourami16thMar20141b.jpg


Home to a gold angel, a pair of Platinum Gouramis, a school of ember tetras, and oto. Currently temp housing 3 angels which are moving to another tank




Group: AquaticLife Message: 55880 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 4/21/2014
Subject: Re: Goldfish tank
Lovely fish & tank-what make are those blue wafers they're eating?

  John<o)))<


On 21 April 2014 00:13, <alasse_au@...> wrote:
 

Tank - 75gal display

Filtration - Canister

Heater - 300W

Substrate - PFS

Hardscape - Gumtree & Rocks from garden

Plants - Anubias, Java fern & Fakes

http://i1231.photobucket.com/albums/ee514/BecLeeFotos/Fish%20Tanks/286litre%204ft%20tank/4ft28thFeb20141a.jpg

Home to 1x Ryukin, 1x Dragon Eye, 1x Black Moor, 2x Pearlscale & 1x Oranda

http://i1231.photobucket.com/albums/ee514/BecLeeFotos/Fish/Goldies6thApr20141a.jpg

**This tank is getting rescaped over the next few days


Group: AquaticLife Message: 55882 From: Harry Perry Date: 4/21/2014
Subject: New Moderator
John Simmonds has joined our moderator team.

We all know John as someone always willing to help.


I look forward to working with him.

Harry
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55884 From: Patrick A. Timlin Date: 4/22/2014
Subject: Re: Goldfish tank
Curious as to the use of the 300W heater. Is that mainly in order to keep tropical plants? And speaking of which, how are the goldfish on your plants?

 
Regards,
Patrick
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55886 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 4/24/2014
Subject: Re: Goldfish tank
I read a lot about how Goldfish like to uproot & destroy plants-also how it is good to have live plants in there to supplement their staple diet. In my experience my fish all used to rip the plants to pieces when they were younger until I put in enough plants to keep up with the attrition & then they didn't bother-as if they had nothing to prove! I've also had many different types of plant in with them but although they used to pull them apart & play with them I never once seen them actually eat any vegetation in 10 years. Now the fish are getting older I haven't seen them take any interest in the plants for several years other than swim through & round them-I wonder if it is an age related thing or even down to the personalities/attitudes of individual groups of fish?

  John<o)))<


On 24 April 2014 09:07, <alasse_au@...> wrote:
 

The heater is for the goldfish and the apple snails. Most of the plants in there are fake, the anubias, swords and java fern would do ok in a cold water tank :)

The goldfish are pretty good on live plants actually. They don't touch whats live in there :)


Group: AquaticLife Message: 55892 From: alasse_au Date: 4/27/2014
Subject: Tis so quiet....

Such a shame......oh well i'll make an effort to keep chatting, i'll keep adding as my tanks change, but I spose not much point if no one is here to interact with :(


Please tell me this isn't just because I don't sign my name?


Or is it just no one is around?


Group: AquaticLife Message: 55893 From: sevenspringss Date: 4/27/2014
Subject: Re: Tis so quiet....
AOL Email
Alasse,
 
Could be that with the weather finally getting nicer outside, lots of people may be enjoy this long-awaited change.  Then too, many of these Yahoo groups are far from being as busy as they once were, with Facebook becaming more popular -- and then, there's Neo to have to contend with.  We're not that small that unsigned messages prevent us from commenting where it's deserved.  In checking out your large tank, those Platinum Angels do look great.  I find two of them very easily, but I'm unsure of the third, unless that's it up at the surface feeding, at the far right.  The tank is starting to fill out nicely with the plants and that driftwood piece is interesting, although I think you said you were planning to change it.
 
Ray
 
 
In a message dated 4/27/2014 9:29:49 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, alasse_au@... writes:
 

Such a shame......oh well i'll make an effort to keep chatting, i'll keep adding as my tanks change, but I spose not much point if no one is here to interact with :(


Please tell me this isn't just because I don't sign my name?


Or is it just no one is around?


Group: AquaticLife Message: 55894 From: oldies1433 Date: 4/27/2014
Subject: Re: Tis so quiet....
I'm thinking that everyone has nice healthy fish with no problems!

bill in pa​


On Sun, Apr 27, 2014 at 7:17 AM, <alasse_au@...> wrote:
 

Such a shame......oh well i'll make an effort to keep chatting, i'll keep adding as my tanks change, but I spose not much point if no one is here to interact with :(


Please tell me this isn't just because I don't sign my name?


Or is it just no one is around?



Group: AquaticLife Message: 55895 From: angel2whitewings Date: 4/27/2014
Subject: Re: Tis so quiet....

Hello!


I am here to have chat at evenings available.


Yours welcome!



Group: AquaticLife Message: 55896 From: Harry Perry Date: 4/27/2014
Subject: O.T. Post Neo format Yahoo mail.
There is an easy version for Yahoo mail. The group site cannot be changed.

IN the upper right hand corner click the gear icon all the way to the right. Then click settings.

On the left box click viewing e-mail. At the bottom click basic.

Then on the left at bottom click save. You can always go back if you want.

Harry
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55897 From: Amber Date: 4/27/2014
Subject: Re: Tis so quiet....
People post in spurts sometimes, I know I'm one of those types. I read the emails, but don't always respond due to life getting distracting.

I just set up a brackish tank and moved my knight goby into it, and got a few guppies, mollies and bumblebee gobies too. I'm excited to try something new.

Amber

On Sun, 27 Apr 2014 03:17:16 -0800, <alasse_au@...> wrote:

 

Such a shame......oh well i'll make an effort to keep chatting, i'll keep adding as my tanks change, but I spose not much point if no one is here to interact with :(


Please tell me this isn't just because I don't sign my name?


Or is it just no one is around?





--
Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55898 From: Andy Mills Date: 4/27/2014
Subject: Questions about ramshorn snails
Am re-posting this as have not yet had any responses.

Hello, I've got a few questions about ramshorn snails. I've currently
got both red and black ramshorns, the red I've had since Christmas and
the black I only got last weekend. The black snails seem quite a bit
bigger than the reds, do all ramshorns get to the same size or are the
darker ones generally bigger. Are red and black ramshorn snails the
same species? Also, can the two types hybridise or will red breed with
red and black with black? If they can hybridise, what size and colour
are the young likely to be when fully grown? I know many people think
of these snails as pests but I must admit I've got a bit of a soft spot
for them, I find them quite interesting little things.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55899 From: deenerzz Date: 4/27/2014
Subject: Re: Tis so quiet....
I find what Amber wrote to be true. Also many of our members are in North America and it is heating up here. People start to spend a bit more time outside and less time aquascaping.

I am currently plant shopping for my girlfriend's other panted 55 gallon tank. I sure am starting to miss all my cichlids.  More active than plant watching : )  We were in San Francisco yesterday and made a side trip to a planted aquarium store, Aqua Forest Aquarium, they sell fish but the focus is plant related tanks. They sell top of the line Amano supplies and equipment. Their setups make you want to run home and redesign
your whole tank. Unfortunately I am on a budget right now and have to work with what I have with the addition of some plants.

Both of her 55 gallon tanks are medium lighting and the more mature tank is quite the unkempt jungle. The newer setup is mostly Java fern clumps and java moss.  It was what we could prune from the more mature tank.  I want to increase and improve the lighting as I love red plants.  Time and money :)

Mike


-----Original Message-----
From: Amber <arberglund@...>
To: AquaticLife <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sun, Apr 27, 2014 10:15 am
Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Tis so quiet....

People post in spurts sometimes, I know I'm one of those types. I read the emails, but don't always respond due to life getting distracting.

I just set up a brackish tank and moved my knight goby into it, and got a few guppies, mollies and bumblebee gobies too. I'm excited to try something new.

Amber
 
On Sun, 27 Apr 2014 03:17:16 -0800, <alasse_au@...> wrote:

 
Such a shame......oh well i'll make an effort to keep chatting, i'll keep adding as my tanks change, but I spose not much point if no one is here to interact with :(

Please tell me this isn't just because I don't sign my name?

Or is it just no one is around?




--
Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55900 From: db1433 Date: 4/27/2014
Subject: For Alasse and Andy



Ray has asked me to step in here for a moment and let you folks know that he has replied to both of your messages to group but he is having difficulty with his postings reaching group and showing up out here.  Please bear along as I know he will keep trying to respond or re-post until his mail is visible here on group.  He has answered you but you cannot see his answers as they are not be posted from or into group properly yet.

bill in pa


 



Group: AquaticLife Message: 55901 From: oldies1433 Date: 4/27/2014
Subject: Re: Tis so quiet....
re-send same message............I hope!

bill​


On Sun, Apr 27, 2014 at 10:09 AM, <sevenspringss1@...> wrote:
 

Alasse,
 
Could be that with the weather finally getting nicer outside, lots of people may be enjoy this long-awaited change.  Then too, many of these Yahoo groups are far from being as busy as they once were, with Facebook becaming more popular -- and then, there's Neo to have to contend with.  We're not that small that unsigned messages prevent us from commenting where it's deserved.  In checking out your large tank, those Platinum Angels do look great.  I find two of them very easily, but I'm unsure of the third, unless that's it up at the surface feeding, at the far right.  The tank is starting to fill out nicely with the plants and that driftwood piece is interesting, although I think you said you were planning to change it.
 
Ray
 
 
In a message dated 4/27/2014 9:29:49 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, alasse_au@... writes:
 

Such a shame......oh well i'll make an effort to keep chatting, i'll keep adding as my tanks change, but I spose not much point if no one is here to interact with :(


Please tell me this isn't just because I don't sign my name?


Or is it just no one is around?



Group: AquaticLife Message: 55902 From: oldies1433 Date: 4/27/2014
Subject: Re: Questions about ramshorn snails
re-send

bill​


On Sun, Apr 27, 2014 at 1:29 PM, Andy Mills <andy.mills@...> wrote:
 

Am re-posting this as have not yet had any responses.

Hello, I've got a few questions about ramshorn snails. I've currently
got both red and black ramshorns, the red I've had since Christmas and
the black I only got last weekend. The black snails seem quite a bit
bigger than the reds, do all ramshorns get to the same size or are the
darker ones generally bigger. Are red and black ramshorn snails the
same species? Also, can the two types hybridise or will red breed with
red and black with black? If they can hybridise, what size and colour
are the young likely to be when fully grown? I know many people think
of these snails as pests but I must admit I've got a bit of a soft spot
for them, I find them quite interesting little things.


Group: AquaticLife Message: 55903 From: annabellesmom2000 Date: 4/28/2014
Subject: New Tank


Hi, I'm Linda. I recently joined the list. I used to have aquariums years ago before kids and then got too busy to take care of them (the aquariums, not the kids!) But now my last one is ready to leave the next, and his lizard had died so I decided it was time to take that tank and start an aquarium again.

Boy, how things have changed! Way back when, you set up the aquarium and let the fish get scalded with ammonia and nitrates as part of the normal course of things. But from my reading now, that needn't be. So I set up the aquarium 2 months ago. I added Stress Zyme to add bacteria, it says to add at startup and the next 2 weeks. I diligently test the water every week and nothing is happening. Everything tests 0, except the PH which 7.6 (we have our own well and it's very hard water.) Shouldn't something have happened by now?

I'm wondering if I started out with a couple of corydoras, it if would start the ball rolling. If I just stuck with the 2 for awhile would the system get going safely, or will it still have to go through the high ammonia process? I don't want to subject fish to that but I'm also getting tired of telling people that no, they don't see any fish in my tank!
Linda


Group: AquaticLife Message: 55904 From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c Date: 4/28/2014
Subject: Re: Tis so quiet....
I am still here, but the others summed it up pretty well thus far.  I have a facebook fish group that I run which takes up a fair amount of my time these days and life in general has just been busy this past year with my youngest child about to graduate in 2 months.  We just survived her senior prom (barely), lol.

I am waiting for the weather to warm up and be nice enough to get my garden started for the year and get back to finishing our pond build that we started mid summer last year... it has been so cold and wet so far that not much we want or need to do outside is yet possible.  Most years I would already have some things in the garden at this point.  We will be breaking down the pond at my in law's house once the weather is warm enough and bringing our koi home at long last... so making space for them, swapping out tanks to accommodate them, etc. is going to keep us busy for a while yet. 

I have also been more busy with tank maintenance, since this is the rainy season and I live in a heavy agricultural area, that means hair algae coming out of my ears.  We also have very high silicate content in our water here so it's wreaking havoc on my new 120 gallon reef tank as well.  I have started testing out some new filtration medias that deal with phosphates, silicates, etc. and am eagerly awaiting the results, hoping they do the trick.  If not, I will be back to pulling hair algae on a daily basis, syphoning cyano bacteria from the reef daily, and trying to find something else that's affordable to try.  I go though this twice/yr and am used to it, but this yr is the worst it has ever been and I'm not sure why. 

And the other thing that has been keeping me away is that I'm nursing an injured fish right now.  My geophagus iporangensis started beating the snot out of one of their tank mates, a sub dominant male, during this last spawning session and they caused some internal damage.  About every 3 days he hangs out in a corner, upside down, being guided around a bit by one of the others so he isn't the target of the big dominant male... and then he's upright and normal again for about 3 days.  Every time I think I'm going to just go in and get him and put him down, then he appears to be fine for a few days, so I just don't have the heart to do it yet.  I've had these guys for the past almost 8 yrs now, raised them from fry and am pretty attached to them in spite of the amount of work they are to take care of and in spite of knowing that they continue to fight regularly for territory in the tank.  215 gallons has proven to not be enough space for the 4 of them to co exist peacefully and they are so dirty that they need a lot of maintenance to keep them clean.  I wish I had access to the proper lab equipment or even just a lab to submit some samples for dna testing, as I suspect they are either not iporangensis but rather brasiliensis, or a hybrid of the 2 species, which are virtually identical except for size.  The iporangensis is supposed to be much smaller in size, topping out around 6 inches each... yet my female is about 9 inches and my males are about 12 - 14 inches each.  (about double the size I had been expecting or prepared for)  They also appear to be aging faster than I expected, which also leads me to believe they are a hybrid which has in turn, affected their gene makeup in various ways I wasn't prepared for.  I am mentally preparing myself for what I know is coming in the near future (likely the next couple of yrs) as I expect to lose them to old age.  Once they are gone I will be turning that 215 gallon tank into a saltwater tank, so I have already begun the planning stages for that. 

This summer is going to be a very busy one with fish and non fish related stuff going on.  I will be popping in whenever I can.  I do try to read the messages as they come into my email but I just don't always get the time, or at least the time to get to all of them. 

Dawn   
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55905 From: Amber Date: 4/28/2014
Subject: Re: New Tank
I have not used stress zyme, but if it's the same as Dr Tim's one and only then you are supposed to add fish at the same time you add the bacteria to the tank. The reason nothing shows up on the tests is because there's nothing in your water to have fed the bacteria and it has likely all died off by now.
If you just add fish now then you'll be starting the cycle all over again and yes you will have high ammonia first, then nitrites, then eventually nitrates when the cycle is finishing. It will stress out fish to put them through this, but it has been done by people before and will likely still happen by people for awhile ;) It usually shortens the fishes life spans, if it doesn't end up killing them. 

Amber

On Mon, 28 Apr 2014 09:34:52 -0800, <Linda@...> wrote:

 


Hi, I'm Linda. I recently joined the list. I used to have aquariums years ago before kids and then got too busy to take care of them (the aquariums, not the kids!) But now my last one is ready to leave the next, and his lizard had died so I decided it was time to take that tank and start an aquarium again.

Boy, how things have changed! Way back when, you set up the aquarium and let the fish get scalded with ammonia and nitrates as part of the normal course of things. But from my reading now, that needn't be. So I set up the aquarium 2 months ago. I added Stress Zyme to add bacteria, it says to add at startup and the next 2 weeks. I diligently test the water every week and nothing is happening. Everything tests 0, except the PH which 7.6 (we have our own well and it's very hard water.) Shouldn't something have happened by now?

I'm wondering if I started out with a couple of corydoras, it if would start the ball rolling. If I just stuck with the 2 for awhile would the system get going safely, or will it still have to go through the high ammonia process? I don't want to subject fish to that but I'm also getting tired of telling people that no, they don't see any fish in my tank!
Linda





--
Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55906 From: Amber Date: 4/28/2014
Subject: Brackish plants and fish
Does anyone out there have brackish tanks? I have recently setup my 29
gallon (tall) as a brackish tank and I have a few fish in it now. 3
mollies (1 male 2 females), 5 guppies (3 females and 2 males), 5 bumblebee
gobies, 1 knight goby, and 1 purple spotted goby. I also have a single
ghost shrimp (which I doubt will last long, LOL), and 2 tracked nerite
snails. I plan on getting a few more nerite snails and maybe some more
ghost shrimp if this one survives, or possibly amano shrimp instead, will
see. But otherwise the tank is nearly fully stocked.
I'm looking at suggestions for brackish plants, or at least plants that
will tolerate low brackish conditions (around 1.005 eventually, but not at
that level yet, still slowly raising the salinity every few days).

Amber

--
Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55907 From: Amber Date: 4/28/2014
Subject: Re: Questions about ramshorn snails
I've never had black ramshorns, I have had the red ones and a bluish looking type. They interbred and would have mixed color babies. I also found them a huge pest, but my clown loaches love them ;)

Amber

On Sun, 27 Apr 2014 09:29:09 -0800, Andy Mills <andy.mills@...> wrote:

 

Am re-posting this as have not yet had any responses.

Hello, I've got a few questions about ramshorn snails. I've currently
got both red and black ramshorns, the red I've had since Christmas and
the black I only got last weekend. The black snails seem quite a bit
bigger than the reds, do all ramshorns get to the same size or are the
darker ones generally bigger. Are red and black ramshorn snails the
same species? Also, can the two types hybridise or will red breed with
red and black with black? If they can hybridise, what size and colour
are the young likely to be when fully grown? I know many people think
of these snails as pests but I must admit I've got a bit of a soft spot
for them, I find them quite interesting little things.

__._,
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55908 From: annabellesmom2000 Date: 4/28/2014
Subject: Re: AquaticLife
So could I just start from here as if new?  Add the StressZyme at the same time as my corydoras and work up from there?  The water condition is essentially the same as 2 months ago.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55909 From: oldies1433 Date: 4/28/2014
Subject: Re: Tis so quiet....
Hi Dawn,

A question if you don't mind?  On that Facebook group that you mentioned............about how many folks are on it?

Regards,

Bill


On Mon, Apr 28, 2014 at 1:51 PM, <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote:
 

I am still here, but the others summed it up pretty well thus far.  I have a facebook fish group that I run which takes up a fair amount of my time these days and life in general has just been busy this past year with my youngest child about to graduate in 2 months.  We just survived her senior prom (barely), lol.

I am waiting for the weather to warm up and be nice enough to get my garden started for the year and get back to finishing our pond build that we started mid summer last year... it has been so cold and wet so far that not much we want or need to do outside is yet possible.  Most years I would already have some things in the garden at this point.  We will be breaking down the pond at my in law's house once the weather is warm enough and bringing our koi home at long last... so making space for them, swapping out tanks to accommodate them, etc. is going to keep us busy for a while yet. 

I have also been more busy with tank maintenance, since this is the rainy season and I live in a heavy agricultural area, that means hair algae coming out of my ears.  We also have very high silicate content in our water here so it's wreaking havoc on my new 120 gallon reef tank as well.  I have started testing out some new filtration medias that deal with phosphates, silicates, etc. and am eagerly awaiting the results, hoping they do the trick.  If not, I will be back to pulling hair algae on a daily basis, syphoning cyano bacteria from the reef daily, and trying to find something else that's affordable to try.  I go though this twice/yr and am used to it, but this yr is the worst it has ever been and I'm not sure why. 

And the other thing that has been keeping me away is that I'm nursing an injured fish right now.  My geophagus iporangensis started beating the snot out of one of their tank mates, a sub dominant male, during this last spawning session and they caused some internal damage.  About every 3 days he hangs out in a corner, upside down, being guided around a bit by one of the others so he isn't the target of the big dominant male... and then he's upright and normal again for about 3 days.  Every time I think I'm going to just go in and get him and put him down, then he appears to be fine for a few days, so I just don't have the heart to do it yet.  I've had these guys for the past almost 8 yrs now, raised them from fry and am pretty attached to them in spite of the amount of work they are to take care of and in spite of knowing that they continue to fight regularly for territory in the tank.  215 gallons has proven to not be enough space for the 4 of them to co exist peacefully and they are so dirty that they need a lot of maintenance to keep them clean.  I wish I had access to the proper lab equipment or even just a lab to submit some samples for dna testing, as I suspect they are either not iporangensis but rather brasiliensis, or a hybrid of the 2 species, which are virtually identical except for size.  The iporangensis is supposed to be much smaller in size, topping out around 6 inches each... yet my female is about 9 inches and my males are about 12 - 14 inches each.  (about double the size I had been expecting or prepared for)  They also appear to be aging faster than I expected, which also leads me to believe they are a hybrid which has in turn, affected their gene makeup in various ways I wasn't prepared for.  I am mentally preparing myself for what I know is coming in the near future (likely the next couple of yrs) as I expect to lose them to old age.  Once they are gone I will be turning that 215 gallon tank into a saltwater tank, so I have already begun the planning stages for that. 

This summer is going to be a very busy one with fish and non fish related stuff going on.  I will be popping in whenever I can.  I do try to read the messages as they come into my email but I just don't always get the time, or at least the time to get to all of them. 

Dawn   


Group: AquaticLife Message: 55910 From: Amber Date: 4/28/2014
Subject: Re: AquaticLife
I'd recommend a water change at least, but you don't have to change all the water, maybe 25%. Add the stresszyme per the instructions, and add the fish at the same time (unless the instructions say otherwise, but I would assume it's similar to  Dr Tim's product).

Amber

On Mon, 28 Apr 2014 12:32:29 -0800, <Linda@...> wrote:

 

So could I just start from here as if new?  Add the StressZyme at the same time as my corydoras and work up from there?  The water condition is essentially the same as 2 months ago.




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Group: AquaticLife Message: 55911 From: sevenspringss Date: 4/28/2014
Subject: Re: New Tank
AOL Email
Hi Linda,
 
If this message goes through (I've been having Yahoogroup problems) -- first, that your tests show no ammonia with this tank is an excellent indication, as sometimes tanks used for reptiles can be unfit for use by fish.  Most often, such tanks used for small mammals (gerbils, white rats, etc.) are useless for fish unless you strip out the silicone sealant in the corners and replace it.  Some of this variation in the degrees of safety of these tanks used by terrestrials depends on how much matting is used on the bottom and how often it's changed.  What happens is that these animals' urine gets absorbed by the sealant and when filled with water, it leaches out continually over time, causing the ammonia to remain very high -- toxic to the fish.  It there were such a problem however, you would have seen evidence of it by now.  While you've had this tank set up now for two months though, obviously with no cycle becoming established from your description, you'll need to take steps to start this process by adding some organic waste products to feed the nitrifying bacteria.  Nothing would be happening -- as you're experiencing -- unless you take further steps to initiate it. 
 
Now, with starting your cycle, you can't expect anything to change when you test your water, even with a nitrobacter additive.  As long as there is no organic waste of any kind added to the water, there won't be an ammonia elevation.  If you haven't added any household ammonia to the water, or even some fish food to be broken down, any nitrifying bacteria in the water or the filter will starve out in short time.  To start a fishless cycle, you'll need to add 4 to 5 drops per gallon, per day, of clear (not sudsy) household ammonia to the tank to feed the bacteria and have them populate your filter.  As you do this, you'll be testing your ammonia each day.  You'll see that the ammonia level will spike to its highest at around 10 days and then slowly decline as your nitrite level rises.  After 10 days,  you'll also need to do daily nitrite tests as well as ammonia tests.  The nitrite should peak after about another 10 days, and then gradually decrease also.  You'll know when your cycle has become establish when, after adding the daily 4 to 5 drops of clear ammonia (per gallon) on one day, the very next day -- before adding anything -- your test results will be zero, indicating that your bacteria are now able to convert all of your ammonia (and converted nitrite) to nitrate within 24 hours.
 
At this time, you need to test your nitrate and do a large enough partial water change to get its level down to at least 40 ppm or less, with less being more beneficial.
 
Ray
 
 
In a message dated 4/28/2014 1:38:28 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, Linda@... writes:
 


Hi, I'm Linda. I recently joined the list. I used to have aquariums years ago before kids and then got too busy to take care of them (the aquariums, not the kids!) But now my last one is ready to leave the next, and his lizard had died so I decided it was time to take that tank and start an aquarium again.

Boy, how things have changed! Way back when, you set up the aquarium and let the fish get scalded with ammonia and nitrates as part of the normal course of things. But from my reading now, that needn't be. So I set up the aquarium 2 months ago. I added Stress Zyme to add bacteria, it says to add at startup and the next 2 weeks. I diligently test the water every week and nothing is happening. Everything tests 0, except the PH which 7.6 (we have our own well and it's very hard water.) Shouldn't something have happened by now?

I'm wondering if I started out with a couple of corydoras, it if would start the ball rolling. If I just stuck with the 2 for awhile would the system get going safely, or will it still have to go through the high ammonia process? I don't want to subject fish to that but I'm also getting tired of telling people that no, they don't see any fish in my tank!
Linda


Group: AquaticLife Message: 55912 From: megablasto2000 Date: 4/28/2014
Subject: Re: New Tank
Linda,
I think it depends on the supplement you buy.  I bought a cheapy bacteria supplement once from Top Fin ( a PetSmart brand), and it didn't do a damn thing.  I'm pretty sure any bacteria that were in it were dead.  A few weeks later, I tried another supplement from Ecological Laboratories, called "Microbe-Lift Nite-Out II" and it was the real deal.  I was also suggested to try Bio-Spira from the Tetra brand, but that experiment got messed up when I spilled soap into the tank.  I had to restart my cycle and that's when I decided to try out the Microbe-Lift product because it was a better value than the Bio-Spira.

-Ken
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55913 From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c Date: 4/28/2014
Subject: Re: Tis so quiet....
Hi Bill.  No problem.  My group currently has 305 members and we have been up and running for just over a year now.  Mine is one of the smaller fish groups on facebook because my friend (the other admin) and I are very strict on our rules in there.  We don't allow people to "flip" fish/animals and we don't allow people to fight and insult each other, etc.  We are a kid friendly group and we put a lot of time and effort into monitoring all posts/comments for accuracy. 
We both were members of another facebook fish group and got tired of the crap that was going on in there, between the people bashing each other and the horrible misinformation and lack of morals, so we decided to quit and start our own so we had a happy, healthy environment in which to help those who needed and wanted it.  It also helped me put a stop to the massive amount of private messages that were filling my inbox every day from people asking for fish/aquarium help.  It was getting so bad that I was spending up to 6 hrs/day just responding to everyone who asked for my help.  I don't have that kind of time to devote to volunteer work and it was getting impossible for me to keep up with a paid job and all of those endless messages.  The group makes it much more manageable.

Examples of the misinformation we were battling in the other groups would be things like, "the only difference between freshwater and saltwater is just adding salt" and "livebearers are scaleless fish" and other such garbage.  In those other groups, whenever we would attempt to correct misinformation in an attempt to truly help people, we would get verbally attacked for it.  Other issues were things such as some people advocating releasing fish such as pacu, arrowanas, oscars, red devils, and comet goldfish into our natural waterways when they outgrew someone's tank.  And of course, there were also a lot of people insisting that rather than helping someone learn to do things the right way, we sit back and just let them make all the beginner mistakes and kill tanks full of fish as their "learning curve".  It was getting so bad and frustrating we just both decided we'd had enough.  Rather than trying to find another group that had a good approach and offered real help, we decided to start our own and it has worked out wonderfully.  We have had to remove and ban a handful of people along the way, but overall it has been pretty peaceful and pleasant since we began. 

The majority of our members are somewhat local to us, but we do have a handful from various other states and even a few from other countries who stay to learn, ask questions, and seek help when they need it.  We allow our members to buy/sell/trade as long as they aren't flipping live animals (buying them from somewhere with the sole purpose of reselling them for profit).  We also have a few small private business owners who can order just about anything someone is looking for in way of live plants and fish/animals, some of them will ship and others keep it to local pick up only, and we have a number of breeders who sell their fry in our group, too. 

Since my group isn't trying to beat out other groups by getting massive numbers of members, it works out well.  The people who are there truly want to be there and don't have any problems abiding by the rules.  We average about 5 new members/wk most months.  Facebook makes it much easier for us to prevent spam because once we block someone, there is no way for them to find our group again much less attempt to join it, and facebook better controls those people who have 200 email addresses for the sole purpose of spam, so they seldom are able to create a new identity to get back in later.  It's also easier on facebook to contact each other via private message if/when a situation calls for it, rather than having to rely on email.  Helping people in real time/live chat has saved many lives in medical situations where timing is critical.  To be able to ask questions and get immediate responses is such a time saver, and better than phone because they can send pictures and video immediately too.  On facebook I am able to help twice as many people in 1/2 the amount of time and get immediate notifications while I am doing other things, so I am better able to multitask.  I belong to a few bird groups where I help there, too... and of course various other things.  Yahoo groups, chat, etc. are dying... sadly... so we go where the people are.  Now days, facebook is the place to be.  :-)

Dawn        
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55914 From: annabellesmom2000 Date: 4/28/2014
Subject: Re: New Tank
Thanks all for your responses.  Since I don't have the fish yet anyway, I think I'll go with the ammonia solution.  I know the pet store carries that and I'll feel like I'm actually causing some kind of reaction.  My pet store only carried the StressZyme, so I don't have any other option there.

Thanks again,

Linda
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55915 From: megablasto2000 Date: 4/28/2014
Subject: Re: New Tank
Also, you need to actually add some clear ammonia to the tank for the supplemented bacteria to feed on, otherwise I think they will die off and your numbers won't change much if at all.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55916 From: deenerzz Date: 4/28/2014
Subject: Re: New Tank
Try Dr. Tim's One and Only.
 
It works! I have used it and so have others on this group.
 
 
Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: megablasto2000 <megablasto2000@...>
To: AquaticLife <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Mon, Apr 28, 2014 2:35 pm
Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: New Tank

 
Linda,
I think it depends on the supplement you buy.  I bought a cheapy bacteria supplement once from Top Fin ( a PetSmart brand), and it didn't do a damn thing.  I'm pretty sure any bacteria that were in it were dead.  A few weeks later, I tried another supplement from Ecological Laboratories, called "Microbe-Lift Nite-Out II" and it was the real deal.  I was also suggested to try Bio-Spira from the Tetra brand, but that experiment got messed up when I spilled soap into the tank.  I had to restart my cycle and that's when I decided to try out the Microbe-Lift product because it was a better value than the Bio-Spira.

-Ken
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55917 From: alasse_au Date: 4/28/2014
Subject: Re: Tis so quiet....

Big Facebook fan here, can understand the appeal there.


I just think if people shared the good here as well as the bad it would be great. Thankfully I rarely have bad happen, but I do like to share my tanks and see other peoples tanks


Anyway i'll update here as things progress with the tanks (many are going through changes). So far I've only really shared 3 of the number I have :)


Looking forward to getting to know many of you

Group: AquaticLife Message: 55918 From: deenerzz Date: 4/29/2014
Subject: Re: Tis so quiet....
Looking forward to more of your tank pictures.

Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: alasse_au <alasse_au@...>
To: AquaticLife <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Mon, Apr 28, 2014 8:25 pm
Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Tis so quiet....

 
Big Facebook fan here, can understand the appeal there.

I just think if people shared the good here as well as the bad it would be great. Thankfully I rarely have bad happen, but I do like to share my tanks and see other peoples tanks

Anyway i'll update here as things progress with the tanks (many are going through changes). So far I've only really shared 3 of the number I have :)

Looking forward to getting to know many of you
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55919 From: sevenspringss Date: 4/29/2014
Subject: Re: Brackish plants and fish
AOL Email
Hi Amber,
 
You may not be receiving this on the Group as I think I'm still having problems with Yahoogroup email being sent back from the Home Page  I'll soon find out after I send this; I'd expect it will post to the Home Page but no one thinks to look there unless they have another reason to go up there.  Anyway, I used to believe that even the toughest of freshwater plants could tolerate only a specific gravity of 1.003 (3 teaspoons of salt to the gallon).  More recently, it is my understanding that there are a number of what we'd consider to be (only) freshwater plants which will adapt to moderately brackish conditions provided they're acclimated to this type of water gradually -- over a period of 10 days or more.
 
Most of these tolerable plants will do well provided the specific gravity does not exceed 1.008, and they do much better at 1.005.  Your planned specific gravity (of 1.005) should be fine as long as you don't exceed it by too much.  First and foremost, Java Fern (Microsorum pteropus) is one of the best candidates to be included in a brackish aquarium as it can also be found in these conditions in  nature.  Java Moss is well suited to brackish water too, although it doesn't only grow in a specific location in a tank but spreads out as a large clump (without a root system).  I'll name some other plants you should do well with (if they're acclimated as they'll need to be);
 
Valisneria americana, Moneywort (Bacopa monnieri), Microsword (Lilaeopsis brasiliensis [L. novae]) -- note, not it's related Carolina Grasswort (L. carolinensis) although this one will tolerate up to 1.003, Hygrophila polysperma and Anubias barteri.  Cryptocoryne ciliata will grow in a s.g. of 1.005 as it's also occasionally found it brackish water in the wild, provided the salinity doesn't get much higher.  Cryptocoryne wendtii does well too, but as Crypts are not as readily adaptable to new conditions (they sometimes "melt" in any abruptly new conditions), it's best if more time is given to acclimate them.  When they do melt, they often come back, even if slowly, but not all the time.  Aponogeton crispus is well-suited for a brackish environment too.  Sagittaria subulata does alright in brackish conditions but does best if only the first (lowest) three or four inches are submersed, with the remainder grown out of the water. 
 
Many brackish water hobbyists grow young (small) Red Mangrove (Rhizophophora mangle), which gives the unmistakable appearance of a brackish water environment, but the only thing you really see underwater are its stilt roots, with the leaves being above the water.  You'd probably need a tall tank to see this plant to its best advantage, or at least keep the water level down about 4" or 5" from the top.  Even these natives of brackish water need to be acclimated slowly to conditions other than what they've been grown in.  While this plant can eventually get huge, simply keeping them trimmed will keep them more manageable, similar to bonsai.  They're extremely slow growers and many of them grown in the aquarium can be kept to a minimum of only about 12" high if that's preferred, or as high as your aquarium.  The trick is not to trim the axial tip before it has branched, or that can kill it.
 
Ray
 
 
In a message dated 4/28/2014 4:27:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, arberglund@... writes:
Does anyone out there have brackish tanks? I have recently setup my 29 
gallon (tall) as a brackish tank and I have a few fish in it now. 3 
mollies (1 male 2 females), 5 guppies (3 females and 2 males), 5 bumblebee 
gobies, 1 knight goby, and 1 purple spotted goby. I also have a single 
ghost shrimp (which I doubt will last long, LOL), and 2 tracked nerite 
snails. I plan on getting a few more nerite snails and maybe some more 
ghost shrimp if this one survives, or possibly amano shrimp instead, will 
see. But otherwise the tank is nearly fully stocked.
I'm looking at suggestions for brackish plants, or at least plants that 
will tolerate low brackish conditions (around 1.005 eventually, but not at 
that level yet, still slowly raising the salinity every few days).

Amber

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Group: AquaticLife Message: 55920 From: Amber Date: 4/29/2014
Subject: Re: Brackish plants and fish
AOL Email
I have a microsword but it sold by a different scientific name. Lilaeopsis mauritiana, is this not a brackish type of micro sword? I also have HYGROPHILA CORYMBOSA growing like crazy in one of my tanks, I took a trimming and put it in my new brackish tank to see if it'll acclimate okay.
I don't have any Sagittaria left, I threw it all away when I moved, it was growing me out of tank and home ;)
I wonder if my purple cabomba will survive brackish.

Amber

On Tue, 29 Apr 2014 04:39:18 -0800, <Sevenspringss1@...> wrote:

Hi Amber,
 
You may not be receiving this on the Group as I think I'm still having problems with Yahoogroup email being sent back from the Home Page  I'll soon find out after I send this; I'd expect it will post to the Home Page but no one thinks to look there unless they have another reason to go up there.  Anyway, I used to believe that even the toughest of freshwater plants could tolerate only a specific gravity of 1.003 (3 teaspoons of salt to the gallon).  More recently, it is my understanding that there are a number of what we'd consider to be (only) freshwater plants which will adapt to moderately brackish conditions provided they're acclimated to this type of water gradually -- over a period of 10 days or more.
 
Most of these tolerable plants will do well provided the specific gravity does not exceed 1.008, and they do much better at 1.005.  Your planned specific gravity (of 1.005) should be fine as long as you don't exceed it by too much.  First and foremost, Java Fern (Microsorum pteropus) is one of the best candidates to be included in a brackish aquarium as it can also be found in these conditions in  nature.  Java Moss is well suited to brackish water too, although it doesn't only grow in a specific location in a tank but spreads out as a large clump (without a root system).  I'll name some other plants you should do well with (if they're acclimated as they'll need to be);
 
Valisneria americana, Moneywort (Bacopa monnieri), Microsword (Lilaeopsis brasiliensis [L. novae]) -- note, not it's related Carolina Grasswort (L. carolinensis) although this one will tolerate up to 1.003, Hygrophila polysperma and Anubias barteri.  Cryptocoryne ciliata will grow in a s.g. of 1.005 as it's also occasionally found it brackish water in the wild, provided the salinity doesn't get much higher.  Cryptocoryne wendtii does well too, but as Crypts are not as readily adaptable to new conditions (they sometimes "melt" in any abruptly new conditions), it's best if more time is given to acclimate them.  When they do melt, they often come back, even if slowly, but not all the time.  Aponogeton crispus is well-suited for a brackish environment too.  Sagittaria subulata does alright in brackish conditions but does best if only the first (lowest) three or four inches are submersed, with the remainder grown out of the water. 
 
Many brackish water hobbyists grow young (small) Red Mangrove (Rhizophophora mangle), which gives the unmistakable appearance of a brackish water environment, but the only thing you really see underwater are its stilt roots, with the leaves being above the water.  You'd probably need a tall tank to see this plant to its best advantage, or at least keep the water level down about 4" or 5" from the top.  Even these natives of brackish water need to be acclimated slowly to conditions other than what they've been grown in.  While this plant can eventually get huge, simply keeping them trimmed will keep them more manageable, similar to bonsai.  They're extremely slow growers and many of them grown in the aquarium can be kept to a minimum of only about 12" high if that's preferred, or as high as your aquarium.  The trick is not to trim the axial tip before it has branched, or that can kill it.
 
Ray
 
 
In a message dated 4/28/2014 4:27:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, arberglund@... writes:
Does anyone out there have brackish tanks? I have recently setup my 29 
gallon (tall) as a brackish tank and I have a few fish in it now. 3 
mollies (1 male 2 females), 5 guppies (3 females and 2 males), 5 bumblebee 
gobies, 1 knight goby, and 1 purple spotted goby. I also have a single 
ghost shrimp (which I doubt will last long, LOL), and 2 tracked nerite 
snails. I plan on getting a few more nerite snails and maybe some more 
ghost shrimp if this one survives, or possibly amano shrimp instead, will 
see. But otherwise the tank is nearly fully stocked.
I'm looking at suggestions for brackish plants, or at least plants that 
will tolerate low brackish conditions (around 1.005 eventually, but not at 
that level yet, still slowly raising the salinity every few days).

Amber

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Group: AquaticLife Message: 55921 From: oldies1433 Date: 4/29/2014
Subject: Re: Tis so quiet....
Question?  If you are on Facebook, is it easy for you to post or link your photos on it?

Bill ​


On Mon, Apr 28, 2014 at 10:54 PM, <alasse_au@...> wrote:
 

Big Facebook fan here, can understand the appeal there.


I just think if people shared the good here as well as the bad it would be great. Thankfully I rarely have bad happen, but I do like to share my tanks and see other peoples tanks


Anyway i'll update here as things progress with the tanks (many are going through changes). So far I've only really shared 3 of the number I have :)


Looking forward to getting to know many of you


Group: AquaticLife Message: 55922 From: oldies1433 Date: 4/29/2014
Subject: Re: Tis so quiet....
Good hearing from you Dawn!  Of course, these days it's good to hear from anyone!​ Yes, I think Facebook has taken a toll on our groups for one reason or another.  As I mentioned to Ray, my wife is on it but I would not know my way around to save my life.  I have seen it on her Ipad but I have yet to join.  From the sounds of your message maybe it is something to consider.  Thee is not much doing here.

Many people say that it is faster but I cannot see how unless its as mentioned that it is faster because its more direct?  As you stated, with it you are actually helping more people than here.  That's easy enough to understand because there are not many people here!  My other groups for computers and digital photography seem busy enough but for fish, I'm afraid most seem going to Facebook.  Maybe the new wave?

Bill



On Mon, Apr 28, 2014 at 6:52 PM, <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote:
 

Hi Bill.  No problem.  My group currently has 305 members and we have been up and running for just over a year now.  Mine is one of the smaller fish groups on facebook because my friend (the other admin) and I are very strict on our rules in there.  We don't allow people to "flip" fish/animals and we don't allow people to fight and insult each other, etc.  We are a kid friendly group and we put a lot of time and effort into monitoring all posts/comments for accuracy. 
We both were members of another facebook fish group and got tired of the crap that was going on in there, between the people bashing each other and the horrible misinformation and lack of morals, so we decided to quit and start our own so we had a happy, healthy environment in which to help those who needed and wanted it.  It also helped me put a stop to the massive amount of private messages that were filling my inbox every day from people asking for fish/aquarium help.  It was getting so bad that I was spending up to 6 hrs/day just responding to everyone who asked for my help.  I don't have that kind of time to devote to volunteer work and it was getting impossible for me to keep up with a paid job and all of those endless messages.  The group makes it much more manageable.

Examples of the misinformation we were battling in the other groups would be things like, "the only difference between freshwater and saltwater is just adding salt" and "livebearers are scaleless fish" and other such garbage.  In those other groups, whenever we would attempt to correct misinformation in an attempt to truly help people, we would get verbally attacked for it.  Other issues were things such as some people advocating releasing fish such as pacu, arrowanas, oscars, red devils, and comet goldfish into our natural waterways when they outgrew someone's tank.  And of course, there were also a lot of people insisting that rather than helping someone learn to do things the right way, we sit back and just let them make all the beginner mistakes and kill tanks full of fish as their "learning curve".  It was getting so bad and frustrating we just both decided we'd had enough.  Rather than trying to find another group that had a good approach and offered real help, we decided to start our own and it has worked out wonderfully.  We have had to remove and ban a handful of people along the way, but overall it has been pretty peaceful and pleasant since we began. 

The majority of our members are somewhat local to us, but we do have a handful from various other states and even a few from other countries who stay to learn, ask questions, and seek help when they need it.  We allow our members to buy/sell/trade as long as they aren't flipping live animals (buying them from somewhere with the sole purpose of reselling them for profit).  We also have a few small private business owners who can order just about anything someone is looking for in way of live plants and fish/animals, some of them will ship and others keep it to local pick up only, and we have a number of breeders who sell their fry in our group, too. 

Since my group isn't trying to beat out other groups by getting massive numbers of members, it works out well.  The people who are there truly want to be there and don't have any problems abiding by the rules.  We average about 5 new members/wk most months.  Facebook makes it much easier for us to prevent spam because once we block someone, there is no way for them to find our group again much less attempt to join it, and facebook better controls those people who have 200 email addresses for the sole purpose of spam, so they seldom are able to create a new identity to get back in later.  It's also easier on facebook to contact each other via private message if/when a situation calls for it, rather than having to rely on email.  Helping people in real time/live chat has saved many lives in medical situations where timing is critical.  To be able to ask questions and get immediate responses is such a time saver, and better than phone because they can send pictures and video immediately too.  On facebook I am able to help twice as many people in 1/2 the amount of time and get immediate notifications while I am doing other things, so I am better able to multitask.  I belong to a few bird groups where I help there, too... and of course various other things.  Yahoo groups, chat, etc. are dying... sadly... so we go where the people are.  Now days, facebook is the place to be.  :-)

Dawn        


Group: AquaticLife Message: 55923 From: Terri Ferrier Date: 4/29/2014
Subject: Coming out of lurk mode:) (Long)

Hi everyone.  My name is Terri Ferrier and I live in South Texas .  I'm very much like another new member Linda, in that I have recently restarted my aquarium hobby after about 30 years.  As a teenager, I had numerous aquariums and bred some extremely fancy guppys that I sold to a local LFS and for my own enjoyment.  I kept a 55 gallon community tank with a variety of fish.  My other 6 tanks ranged in size from 2.5 gal to 20 gallons and all housed guppys. 

 

Back in the day:).....cycling a tank was unheard of.  We washed the tank, put in the gravel, filled it up and added chlorine drops and then added fish.  No problem with ammonia, nitrates or anything else and I never lost any fish.  In fact, every 2-3 months, I would completely break down the tank, take it outside and scrub it down and set it all back up.  Hang on the back filters were just becoming available and were expensive  At this time, the filters were made for specific tanks, there were no generic fits and there wasn't one made for my tank but I bought one anyhow.  It wasn't a good fit but it was the best fit I could find and I had to jury rig it on the frame.  This tank had a wide stainless steel frame including on the corners and used a thick black rubbery foam insulation about a half inch thick between the glass and frame.  The light and cover were also stainless steel.  My other tanks all had the little corner filters that you had to regularly replace the charcoal and cotten wool.

 

Skip ahead 30 years and boy did I get an eye opener and did I learn the hard way.  For months, it just got in my head how nice it would be to have an aquarium again.  About a year ago, I got a wild hair one day and went and bought a 36 gallon setup and did just like I always had.  Set the tank up, added my new fish and promptly lost about $200 worth of fish due to extremely high ammonia levels.  I started hitting the books and the internet trying to figure out what happened and got a whole new education.  My tank finally cycled and I started adding new fish and everything is good.  Right now, it houses a school of neons, some glass cats, corydoras, black tetras, zebras, khuli loaches, a couple of powder blue dwarf gouramis and a couple of hatchet fish. 

 

Then I got the itch for a bigger tank.  And last Thanksgiving, I added a 75 gallon setup that houses mostly cichlids which is new for me.  I never had any kind of cichlids in the past.  I originally stocked quite a few fish because of the tank size but will soon be moving some of them out since they're starting to get some size to them.  My keepers that are housed in this tank are 4 blood red parrot fish, 2 angel fish, 4 electric blue johanni, 2 electric yellow labs, 4 turquoise rainbow fish, 3 pink gourami, a leopard cat and 2 plecostomas.  Eventually I might have to thin them out some more or else get another bigger tank:)  This tank has been so much easier to setup and maintain.  Have had no problems at all.

 

The aquarium business has changed so much since I last had my aquariums.  Some of the things I've noticed.....Fish are being sold at a much younger age and smaller size than before when fish were sold at close to maturity.  Because of this, I find the fish more fragile and it makes it difficult to add new fish after the older fish have had a few months or more to grow.  Some of the new fish tend to simply disappear overnight, if you know what I mean.  Plants are another thing.  I ordered some plants online once that showed photos of the plants of a good size.  They were delivered and they were way less than half the size I was expecting.  The plants in the stores are no better.  For example, I have yet to find any anacharis plants longer than 5"-6" and I quickly found out that this is the norm now.  I remember going to the LFS and buying anacharis that was at least 12-18" long, sometimes longer.  Same with vallisneria.  These plants were large, dark green, and almost crisp with healthiness  Now, I have yet to have a single plant live in my tanks.  Before, my plants grew like weeds.  The anacharis grew so long that I would break off a good sized piece, stick it down in the gravel and in no time the broken off piece was the size of the original plant.  Stores today stock few to no plants at all.  And the few plants I have found and bought recently have been nowhere as healthy looking as the plants I had back in the day. They are small with faded color and soft. I plant them and immediately they start losing even more color, losing leaves and just waste away to nothing but a root ball.  I've tried fertilizers, co2 boosters, anything I could find.  I finally gave up and have nothing but plastic plants now.  Medications and water treatments have changed also.  They were more concentrated back in the day and you could buy one bottle or package and treat your big tank for the required number of days and have enough left over to treat some smaller tanks and it didn't cost a fortune.  I remember the treatment for ridding the chlorine in the water was a small 2oz dropper bottle and you added drops, not capfuls or ounces of product.

 

So, enough about all that.  I've pretty much figured things out although I'm still learning and am thoroughly enjoying my aquariums and my fish.

 

Terri

 

Group: AquaticLife Message: 55924 From: sevenspringss Date: 4/29/2014
Subject: Re: Testing Only
AOL Email
Please excuse this test, but I need to see if emails generated from my ISP, sent to Yahoo Groups, will post as Yahoo mail.  Thank you.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55925 From: sevenspringss Date: 4/29/2014
Subject: Fwd: Testing Only
AOL Email
 
 

From: Sevenspringss1@...
To: aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 4/29/2014 3:09:36 P.M. Eastern Standard Time
Subj: Re: Testing Only
 
Please excuse this test, but I need to see if emails generated from my ISP, sent to Yahoo Groups, will post as Yahoo mail.  Thank you.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55926 From: sevenspringss Date: 4/29/2014
Subject: Re: Tis so quiet....
AOL Email
Hi Bill,
 
There are still well over 3400 members here.  I don't know how many aquarium hobbyists are on Facebook, but with the membership base this Yahoogroup has, hardly anyone posts anymore compared to only a year ago (or less).  I still think is may have something to do with Yahoo's new "Neo" not being a very friendly format to navigate.  No one I've talked to about this likes it very much and many hate it.
 
Ray
 
 
In a message dated 4/29/2014 11:27:07 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, db1433@... writes:
 

Good hearing from you Dawn!  Of course, these days it's good to hear from anyone!​ Yes, I think Facebook has taken a toll on our groups for one reason or another.  As I mentioned to Ray, my wife is on it but I would not know my way around to save my life.  I have seen it on her Ipad but I have yet to join.  From the sounds of your message maybe it is something to consider.  Thee is not much doing here.

Many people say that it is faster but I cannot see how unless its as mentioned that it is faster because its more direct?  As you stated, with it you are actually helping more people than here.  That's easy enough to understand because there are not many people here!  My other groups for computers and digital photography seem busy enough but for fish, I'm afraid most seem going to Facebook.  Maybe the new wave?

Bill



On Mon, Apr 28, 2014 at 6:52 PM, <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote:
 

Hi Bill.  No problem.  My group currently has 305 members and we have been up and running for just over a year now.  Mine is one of the smaller fish groups on facebook because my friend (the other admin) and I are very strict on our rules in there.  We don't allow people to "flip" fish/animals and we don't allow people to fight and insult each other, etc.  We are a kid friendly group and we put a lot of time and effort into monitoring all posts/comments for accuracy. 
We both were members of another facebook fish group and got tired of the crap that was going on in there, between the people bashing each other and the horrible misinformation and lack of morals, so we decided to quit and start our own so we had a happy, healthy environment in which to help those who needed and wanted it.  It also helped me put a stop to the massive amount of private messages that were filling my inbox every day from people asking for fish/aquarium help.  It was getting so bad that I was spending up to 6 hrs/day just responding to everyone who asked for my help.  I don't have that kind of time to devote to volunteer work and it was getting impossible for me to keep up with a paid job and all of those endless messages.  The group makes it much more manageable.

Examples of the misinformation we were battling in the other groups would be things like, "the only difference between freshwater and saltwater is just adding salt" and "livebearers are scaleless fish" and other such garbage.  In those other groups, whenever we would attempt to correct misinformation in an attempt to truly help people, we would get verbally attacked for it.  Other issues were things such as some people advocating releasing fish such as pacu, arrowanas, oscars, red devils, and comet goldfish into our natural waterways when they outgrew someone's tank.  And of course, there were also a lot of people insisting that rather than helping someone learn to do things the right way, we sit back and just let them make all the beginner mistakes and kill tanks full of fish as their "learning curve".  It was getting so bad and frustrating we just both decided we'd had enough.  Rather than trying to find another group that had a good approach and offered real help, we decided to start our own and it has worked out wonderfully.  We have had to remove and ban a handful of people along the way, but overall it has been pretty peaceful and pleasant since we began. 

The majority of our members are somewhat local to us, but we do have a handful from various other states and even a few from other countries who stay to learn, ask questions, and seek help when they need it.  We allow our members to buy/sell/trade as long as they aren't flipping live animals (buying them from somewhere with the sole purpose of reselling them for profit).  We also have a few small private business owners who can order just about anything someone is looking for in way of live plants and fish/animals, some of them will ship and others keep it to local pick up only, and we have a number of breeders who sell their fry in our group, too. 

Since my group isn't trying to beat out other groups by getting massive numbers of members, it works out well.  The people who are there truly want to be there and don't have any problems abiding by the rules.  We average about 5 new members/wk most months.  Facebook makes it much easier for us to prevent spam because once we block someone, there is no way for them to find our group again much less attempt to join it, and facebook better controls those people who have 200 email addresses for the sole purpose of spam, so they seldom are able to create a new identity to get back in later.  It's also easier on facebook to contact each other via private message if/when a situation calls for it, rather than having to rely on email.  Helping people in real time/live chat has saved many lives in medical situations where timing is critical.  To be able to ask questions and get immediate responses is such a time saver, and better than phone because they can send pictures and video immediately too.  On facebook I am able to help twice as many people in 1/2 the amount of time and get immediate notifications while I am doing other things, so I am better able to multitask.  I belong to a few bird groups where I help there, too... and of course various other things.  Yahoo groups, chat, etc. are dying... sadly... so we go where the people are.  Now days, facebook is the place to be.  :-)

Dawn        


Group: AquaticLife Message: 55927 From: sevenspringss Date: 4/29/2014
Subject: Re: Tis so quiet....
AOL Email
 
Hi Bill,
 
There are still well over 3400 members here.  I don't know how many aquarium hobbyists are on Facebook, but with the membership base this Yahoogroup has, hardly anyone posts anymore compared to only a year ago (or less).  I still think is may have something to do with Yahoo's new "Neo" not being a very friendly format to navigate.  No one I've talked to about this likes it very much and many hate it.
 
Ray
 
 
In a message dated 4/29/2014 11:27:07 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, db1433@... writes:
 

Good hearing from you Dawn!  Of course, these days it's good to hear from anyone!​ Yes, I think Facebook has taken a toll on our groups for one reason or another.  As I mentioned to Ray, my wife is on it but I would not know my way around to save my life.  I have seen it on her Ipad but I have yet to join.  From the sounds of your message maybe it is something to consider.  Thee is not much doing here.

Many people say that it is faster but I cannot see how unless its as mentioned that it is faster because its more direct?  As you stated, with it you are actually helping more people than here.  That's easy enough to understand because there are not many people here!  My other groups for computers and digital photography seem busy enough but for fish, I'm afraid most seem going to Facebook.  Maybe the new wave?

Bill



On Mon, Apr 28, 2014 at 6:52 PM, <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote:
 

Hi Bill.  No problem.  My group currently has 305 members and we have been up and running for just over a year now.  Mine is one of the smaller fish groups on facebook because my friend (the other admin) and I are very strict on our rules in there.  We don't allow people to "flip" fish/animals and we don't allow people to fight and insult each other, etc.  We are a kid friendly group and we put a lot of time and effort into monitoring all posts/comments for accuracy. 
We both were members of another facebook fish group and got tired of the crap that was going on in there, between the people bashing each other and the horrible misinformation and lack of morals, so we decided to quit and start our own so we had a happy, healthy environment in which to help those who needed and wanted it.  It also helped me put a stop to the massive amount of private messages that were filling my inbox every day from people asking for fish/aquarium help.  It was getting so bad that I was spending up to 6 hrs/day just responding to everyone who asked for my help.  I don't have that kind of time to devote to volunteer work and it was getting impossible for me to keep up with a paid job and all of those endless messages.  The group makes it much more manageable.

Examples of the misinformation we were battling in the other groups would be things like, "the only difference between freshwater and saltwater is just adding salt" and "livebearers are scaleless fish" and other such garbage.  In those other groups, whenever we would attempt to correct misinformation in an attempt to truly help people, we would get verbally attacked for it.  Other issues were things such as some people advocating releasing fish such as pacu, arrowanas, oscars, red devils, and comet goldfish into our natural waterways when they outgrew someone's tank.  And of course, there were also a lot of people insisting that rather than helping someone learn to do things the right way, we sit back and just let them make all the beginner mistakes and kill tanks full of fish as their "learning curve".  It was getting so bad and frustrating we just both decided we'd had enough.  Rather than trying to find another group that had a good approach and offered real help, we decided to start our own and it has worked out wonderfully.  We have had to remove and ban a handful of people along the way, but overall it has been pretty peaceful and pleasant since we began. 

The majority of our members are somewhat local to us, but we do have a handful from various other states and even a few from other countries who stay to learn, ask questions, and seek help when they need it.  We allow our members to buy/sell/trade as long as they aren't flipping live animals (buying them from somewhere with the sole purpose of reselling them for profit).  We also have a few small private business owners who can order just about anything someone is looking for in way of live plants and fish/animals, some of them will ship and others keep it to local pick up only, and we have a number of breeders who sell their fry in our group, too. 

Since my group isn't trying to beat out other groups by getting massive numbers of members, it works out well.  The people who are there truly want to be there and don't have any problems abiding by the rules.  We average about 5 new members/wk most months.  Facebook makes it much easier for us to prevent spam because once we block someone, there is no way for them to find our group again much less attempt to join it, and facebook better controls those people who have 200 email addresses for the sole purpose of spam, so they seldom are able to create a new identity to get back in later.  It's also easier on facebook to contact each other via private message if/when a situation calls for it, rather than having to rely on email.  Helping people in real time/live chat has saved many lives in medical situations where timing is critical.  To be able to ask questions and get immediate responses is such a time saver, and better than phone because they can send pictures and video immediately too.  On facebook I am able to help twice as many people in 1/2 the amount of time and get immediate notifications while I am doing other things, so I am better able to multitask.  I belong to a few bird groups where I help there, too... and of course various other things.  Yahoo groups, chat, etc. are dying... sadly... so we go where the people are.  Now days, facebook is the place to be.  :-)

Dawn        


Group: AquaticLife Message: 55928 From: alasse_au Date: 4/29/2014
Subject: Re: Tis so quiet....
There are thousands of aquarists on FB....
Though yahoo groups has changed, it not really that hard to navigate. Honestly though FB is a much nicer medium to play on. Way easier to post pictures and just generally interact with other people
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55929 From: megablasto2000 Date: 4/29/2014
Subject: Does my goldy have a disease?

Hi guys,


I just posted some photos of my fantail goldy in the photo section.  There is also a video:   http://youtu.be/Yw6KqWL2jMI


I'm not sure if my goldy has a disease or not.  It is very hard to tell at this point.  But basically, I see what look like pale, barely discernible, white patches on my goldy's head, between the eyes.  I took a video and posted snapshots from the video. They are not that great but give an idea of what I think I'm seeing.  I talked to some people in a local fish discussion group on Facebook, but no one seems to be no agreement what disease it is, or if there is even an issue in the first place.  I'm still not sure myself, because I can only notice it under really good light at the proper angle.  Can't say I noticed this before, but I also can't say I was looking for it either.  Maybe it has always been there?


So far my goldy seem to behave fine.  I did notice today a little spot or something on the very tip end of his tail, which I also took a photo of, and highlighted.


I am kinda baffled, if this is a disease, because the water parameters have been very good - zero ammonia, neutral pH, zero nitrites, and acceptable nitrates.  Also, he is the only fish in the tank for the past month or so, and I have owned this fish for nearly a year already.


What do you guys think?  Just out of caution, I decided to add some aquarium salt to the water (3 teaspoons to 15 gallon).


-Ken

Group: AquaticLife Message: 55930 From: oldies1433 Date: 4/29/2014
Subject: Re: Tis so quiet....
Yes but.......................................................................
There ain't squat you can do about it!  They are going to prevail no matter what, and as far as going back to the old
format that the rumor mill has girding out about?  What and admit they were wrong to fool with it in the first place!  You'll never see it​.

Like the man said; its going to get worse before it gets better, that's for sure.  Free email service?  Nothing is free but Yahoo threw everyone a curve with this one.  So far on any of my groups I have not heard even one favorable comment, not one.

Before I forget, you should run your security and malwares program on  your machine.  I don't know if it is your settings or what but all of your messages for the last few days are all going into my spam file out here so something in the coding is sending them there?  Maybe this might be some of the root of your problem?  You never had this problem before so something is causing it.

Bill


On Tue, Apr 29, 2014 at 4:51 PM, <sevenspringss1@...> wrote:
 

Hi Bill,
 
There are still well over 3400 members here.  I don't know how many aquarium hobbyists are on Facebook, but with the membership base this Yahoogroup has, hardly anyone posts anymore compared to only a year ago (or less).  I still think is may have something to do with Yahoo's new "Neo" not being a very friendly format to navigate.  No one I've talked to about this likes it very much and many hate it.
 
Ray
 
 
In a message dated 4/29/2014 11:27:07 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, db1433@... writes:
 

Good hearing from you Dawn!  Of course, these days it's good to hear from anyone!​ Yes, I think Facebook has taken a toll on our groups for one reason or another.  As I mentioned to Ray, my wife is on it but I would not know my way around to save my life.  I have seen it on her Ipad but I have yet to join.  From the sounds of your message maybe it is something to consider.  Thee is not much doing here.

Many people say that it is faster but I cannot see how unless its as mentioned that it is faster because its more direct?  As you stated, with it you are actually helping more people than here.  That's easy enough to understand because there are not many people here!  My other groups for computers and digital photography seem busy enough but for fish, I'm afraid most seem going to Facebook.  Maybe the new wave?

Bill



On Mon, Apr 28, 2014 at 6:52 PM, <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote:
 

Hi Bill.  No problem.  My group currently has 305 members and we have been up and running for just over a year now.  Mine is one of the smaller fish groups on facebook because my friend (the other admin) and I are very strict on our rules in there.  We don't allow people to "flip" fish/animals and we don't allow people to fight and insult each other, etc.  We are a kid friendly group and we put a lot of time and effort into monitoring all posts/comments for accuracy. 
We both were members of another facebook fish group and got tired of the crap that was going on in there, between the people bashing each other and the horrible misinformation and lack of morals, so we decided to quit and start our own so we had a happy, healthy environment in which to help those who needed and wanted it.  It also helped me put a stop to the massive amount of private messages that were filling my inbox every day from people asking for fish/aquarium help.  It was getting so bad that I was spending up to 6 hrs/day just responding to everyone who asked for my help.  I don't have that kind of time to devote to volunteer work and it was getting impossible for me to keep up with a paid job and all of those endless messages.  The group makes it much more manageable.

Examples of the misinformation we were battling in the other groups would be things like, "the only difference between freshwater and saltwater is just adding salt" and "livebearers are scaleless fish" and other such garbage.  In those other groups, whenever we would attempt to correct misinformation in an attempt to truly help people, we would get verbally attacked for it.  Other issues were things such as some people advocating releasing fish such as pacu, arrowanas, oscars, red devils, and comet goldfish into our natural waterways when they outgrew someone's tank.  And of course, there were also a lot of people insisting that rather than helping someone learn to do things the right way, we sit back and just let them make all the beginner mistakes and kill tanks full of fish as their "learning curve".  It was getting so bad and frustrating we just both decided we'd had enough.  Rather than trying to find another group that had a good approach and offered real help, we decided to start our own and it has worked out wonderfully.  We have had to remove and ban a handful of people along the way, but overall it has been pretty peaceful and pleasant since we began. 

The majority of our members are somewhat local to us, but we do have a handful from various other states and even a few from other countries who stay to learn, ask questions, and seek help when they need it.  We allow our members to buy/sell/trade as long as they aren't flipping live animals (buying them from somewhere with the sole purpose of reselling them for profit).  We also have a few small private business owners who can order just about anything someone is looking for in way of live plants and fish/animals, some of them will ship and others keep it to local pick up only, and we have a number of breeders who sell their fry in our group, too. 

Since my group isn't trying to beat out other groups by getting massive numbers of members, it works out well.  The people who are there truly want to be there and don't have any problems abiding by the rules.  We average about 5 new members/wk most months.  Facebook makes it much easier for us to prevent spam because once we block someone, there is no way for them to find our group again much less attempt to join it, and facebook better controls those people who have 200 email addresses for the sole purpose of spam, so they seldom are able to create a new identity to get back in later.  It's also easier on facebook to contact each other via private message if/when a situation calls for it, rather than having to rely on email.  Helping people in real time/live chat has saved many lives in medical situations where timing is critical.  To be able to ask questions and get immediate responses is such a time saver, and better than phone because they can send pictures and video immediately too.  On facebook I am able to help twice as many people in 1/2 the amount of time and get immediate notifications while I am doing other things, so I am better able to multitask.  I belong to a few bird groups where I help there, too... and of course various other things.  Yahoo groups, chat, etc. are dying... sadly... so we go where the people are.  Now days, facebook is the place to be.  :-)

Dawn        



Group: AquaticLife Message: 55931 From: sevenspringss Date: 4/29/2014
Subject: Re: Tis so quiet....
AOL Email
Bill,  By those four or so messages I forwarded to you from other list owners/moderators, you can see that there are other people on many other Yahoo groups having the same problem.  No, I realize there's absolutely nothing I can do about Neo, and Yahoo sure isn't going to admit they did wrong.  Haven't heard anything circulating in a rumor mill about this, but we all know it's not going back to their extremely friendly to use format.  I was going to ask you if you've seen any of my emails in your spam folder, as that's where other messages by other people on other groups are winding up.  I checked my own spam folder to see if the Yahoo mail of the messages I've sent in, which I'm supposed to see in my inbox wound up there, but it's empty.  Unless . . . it doesn't work that way.  Something's causing this but I'm far from being alone as lots of people are suddenly having it. 
 
Ray
 
In a message dated 4/29/2014 9:11:49 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, db1433@... writes:
 

Yes but.......................................................................
There ain't squat you can do about it!  They are going to prevail no matter what, and as far as going back to the old
format that the rumor mill has girding out about?  What and admit they were wrong to fool with it in the first place!  You'll never see it​.

Like the man said; its going to get worse before it gets better, that's for sure.  Free email service?  Nothing is free but Yahoo threw everyone a curve with this one.  So far on any of my groups I have not heard even one favorable comment, not one.

Before I forget, you should run your security and malwares program on  your machine.  I don't know if it is your settings or what but all of your messages for the last few days are all going into my spam file out here so something in the coding is sending them there?  Maybe this might be some of the root of your problem?  You never had this problem before so something is causing it.

Bill


On Tue, Apr 29, 2014 at 4:51 PM, <sevenspringss1@...> wrote:
 

Hi Bill,
 
There are still well over 3400 members here.  I don't know how many aquarium hobbyists are on Facebook, but with the membership base this Yahoogroup has, hardly anyone posts anymore compared to only a year ago (or less).  I still think is may have something to do with Yahoo's new "Neo" not being a very friendly format to navigate.  No one I've talked to about this likes it very much and many hate it.
 
Ray
 
 
In a message dated 4/29/2014 11:27:07 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, db1433@... writes:
 

Good hearing from you Dawn!  Of course, these days it's good to hear from anyone!​ Yes, I think Facebook has taken a toll on our groups for one reason or another.  As I mentioned to Ray, my wife is on it but I would not know my way around to save my life.  I have seen it on her Ipad but I have yet to join.  From the sounds of your message maybe it is something to consider.  Thee is not much doing here.

Many people say that it is faster but I cannot see how unless its as mentioned that it is faster because its more direct?  As you stated, with it you are actually helping more people than here.  That's easy enough to understand because there are not many people here!  My other groups for computers and digital photography seem busy enough but for fish, I'm afraid most seem going to Facebook.  Maybe the new wave?

Bill



On Mon, Apr 28, 2014 at 6:52 PM, <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote:
 

Hi Bill.  No problem.  My group currently has 305 members and we have been up and running for just over a year now.  Mine is one of the smaller fish groups on facebook because my friend (the other admin) and I are very strict on our rules in there.  We don't allow people to "flip" fish/animals and we don't allow people to fight and insult each other, etc.  We are a kid friendly group and we put a lot of time and effort into monitoring all posts/comments for accuracy. 
We both were members of another facebook fish group and got tired of the crap that was going on in there, between the people bashing each other and the horrible misinformation and lack of morals, so we decided to quit and start our own so we had a happy, healthy environment in which to help those who needed and wanted it.  It also helped me put a stop to the massive amount of private messages that were filling my inbox every day from people asking for fish/aquarium help.  It was getting so bad that I was spending up to 6 hrs/day just responding to everyone who asked for my help.  I don't have that kind of time to devote to volunteer work and it was getting impossible for me to keep up with a paid job and all of those endless messages.  The group makes it much more manageable.

Examples of the misinformation we were battling in the other groups would be things like, "the only difference between freshwater and saltwater is just adding salt" and "livebearers are scaleless fish" and other such garbage.  In those other groups, whenever we would attempt to correct misinformation in an attempt to truly help people, we would get verbally attacked for it.  Other issues were things such as some people advocating releasing fish such as pacu, arrowanas, oscars, red devils, and comet goldfish into our natural waterways when they outgrew someone's tank.  And of course, there were also a lot of people insisting that rather than helping someone learn to do things the right way, we sit back and just let them make all the beginner mistakes and kill tanks full of fish as their "learning curve".  It was getting so bad and frustrating we just both decided we'd had enough.  Rather than trying to find another group that had a good approach and offered real help, we decided to start our own and it has worked out wonderfully.  We have had to remove and ban a handful of people along the way, but overall it has been pretty peaceful and pleasant since we began. 

The majority of our members are somewhat local to us, but we do have a handful from various other states and even a few from other countries who stay to learn, ask questions, and seek help when they need it.  We allow our members to buy/sell/trade as long as they aren't flipping live animals (buying them from somewhere with the sole purpose of reselling them for profit).  We also have a few small private business owners who can order just about anything someone is looking for in way of live plants and fish/animals, some of them will ship and others keep it to local pick up only, and we have a number of breeders who sell their fry in our group, too. 

Since my group isn't trying to beat out other groups by getting massive numbers of members, it works out well.  The people who are there truly want to be there and don't have any problems abiding by the rules.  We average about 5 new members/wk most months.  Facebook makes it much easier for us to prevent spam because once we block someone, there is no way for them to find our group again much less attempt to join it, and facebook better controls those people who have 200 email addresses for the sole purpose of spam, so they seldom are able to create a new identity to get back in later.  It's also easier on facebook to contact each other via private message if/when a situation calls for it, rather than having to rely on email.  Helping people in real time/live chat has saved many lives in medical situations where timing is critical.  To be able to ask questions and get immediate responses is such a time saver, and better than phone because they can send pictures and video immediately too.  On facebook I am able to help twice as many people in 1/2 the amount of time and get immediate notifications while I am doing other things, so I am better able to multitask.  I belong to a few bird groups where I help there, too... and of course various other things.  Yahoo groups, chat, etc. are dying... sadly... so we go where the people are.  Now days, facebook is the place to be.  :-)

Dawn        



Group: AquaticLife Message: 55932 From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c Date: 4/30/2014
Subject: Re: Tis so quiet....
Bill,
In answer to your question, yes, facebook is much easier when it comes to posting photos and links, and as was already mentioned, it's so much faster for everything and very easy to navigate.  (easier to moderate as well)  Facebook is very user friendly compared to Yahoo, even by Yahoo's old standards.  I like that facebook gives me immediate notifications when someone posts in the group so I am able to get there and answer questions or make comments quickly even if I'm doing other things. 
As for aquarists on facebook... there are tens of thousands of aquatic hobbyists on facebook to interact with from beginner to advanced to professional.  TFH has a facebook page for members to interact on and share photos, etc.  They have featured more than one of my tank photos for their daily circulations.

My group is small but growing.  As I mentioned in my last post, I am ok with the smaller group at present because I can only keep up with so much in a given day.  There are ways I could quickly generate masses of hobbyists joining my group, but then I would have to weed through them all to make sure nobody is abusing the rules or posting spam, needing to be deleted, etc.  I have had 7 new members join just in the past 24 hrs.  But there are MANY aquarium based groups on facebook depending on what a person is interested in and how much bs they want to deal with in regards to fighting/arguing, morals, ethics, etc.  Some openly welcome the behaviors my friend & I work so hard to keep out of our group, and there are many where the advice being given out is a crap shoot in regards to accuracy, and attempting to correct someone on their misinformation can be a vulgar, heated, lengthy exchange.  I have no interest in doing battle with thousands of people over the accuracy of their information so I restrict myself to just my group and visiting the TFH group along with another group that specifically focus's on the saltwater/reef side of the hobby.

In regards to Yahoo and this new format, I hate it.  It has made posting in the group, finding things in the group, etc. much more time consuming and confusing.  As my schedule gets busier I just have less time to navigate through the Yahoo mess and Yahoo email hasn't been much better.  With facebook it's easier to write quick posts and get them out to the group immediately without having to wait for things such as Yahoo's lag time, which I find very frustrating. 

There is no harm in adding facebook to your list of groups to visit just to get a feel for things and test the waters.  Maybe your wife could help you with that before you decide you want to join and interact fully?  If there's anything I can do to help anyone interested in checking out the facebook groups please just let me know. 

I do want to note that in spite of facebook, I do still find my way back here as often as I'm able simply because I enjoy the people here too.  As much as facebook is my new "home base" I have no intentions of leaving this group as long as it's here.  :-)  Sometimes the slower pace here on Yahoo is a welcomed stress reliever.

Dawn   
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55933 From: jett07002 Date: 4/30/2014
Subject: Re: Fwd: Testing Only

Your message came through on the email, Ray.  I also have Yahoo Mail. 


Now I am going to answering you on the Yahoo Mail itself.  See if that goes through for you. 


joe t

Group: AquaticLife Message: 55934 From: Lorraine Murphy Date: 4/30/2014
Subject: Re: Tis so quiet....

 

 

From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...
Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2014 2:54 AM
To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Tis so quiet....

 

 

J

Laurie

I do want to note that in spite of facebook, I do still find my way back here as often as I'm able simply because I enjoy the people here too.  As much as facebook is my new "home base" I have no intentions of leaving this group as long as it's here.  :-)  Sometimes the slower pace here on Yahoo is a welcomed stress reliever.

Dawn   

Group: AquaticLife Message: 55935 From: sevenspringss Date: 4/30/2014
Subject: Re: Fwd: Testing Only
AOL Email
Hi Joe,
 
Thanks you very much.  I'm quite relieved the message was posted -- although I don't see it posted here on my computer as Yahoogroup mail on the Aquatic Life group.  I think the problem is/was just on the (Yahoo) groups, not with Yahoo mail as coming from your provider.  I guess I'll see in time if any more messages of mine which I decide to send to Aquatic Life get posted.  Thanks again,
 
Ray
 
 
In a message dated 4/30/2014 10:38:10 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, jett07002@... writes:
 

Your message came through on the email, Ray.  I also have Yahoo Mail. 


Now I am going to answering you on the Yahoo Mail itself.  See if that goes through for you. 


joe t

Group: AquaticLife Message: 55936 From: oldies1433 Date: 4/30/2014
Subject: Re: Tis so quiet....
Dawn thanks so much for your extra comments and time.  From your mails the other day I know your busy and I appreciate the extra time you have given me.  What I can't figure is how everyone finds everyone else.

For instance, I have your name and email address from over here on Yahoo groups.  But suppose I didn't?  You mentioned you have a fish group over on Facebook.  Ok now without knowing your name,or the name of your group; f that pertains or not, how would I find YOUR group and when I do, how would I know for sure that it actually is your group?

Now here's the other part that I can't understand.  I do understand what you have written on far, and how you can speak or work directly with people but how do you keep your manners?

My wife says you have to "friend" someone, suppose you don't friend them or ignore the request.  Of course, they are not friended by you but then doesn't that get people mad at you?  But then of course the obvious; you don't have these people on your group driving you crazy either, right?

Bill


On Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 5:53 AM, <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote:
 

Bill,
In answer to your question, yes, facebook is much easier when it comes to posting photos and links, and as was already mentioned, it's so much faster for everything and very easy to navigate.  (easier to moderate as well)  Facebook is very user friendly compared to Yahoo, even by Yahoo's old standards.  I like that facebook gives me immediate notifications when someone posts in the group so I am able to get there and answer questions or make comments quickly even if I'm doing other things. 
As for aquarists on facebook... there are tens of thousands of aquatic hobbyists on facebook to interact with from beginner to advanced to professional.  TFH has a facebook page for members to interact on and share photos, etc.  They have featured more than one of my tank photos for their daily circulations.

My group is small but growing.  As I mentioned in my last post, I am ok with the smaller group at present because I can only keep up with so much in a given day.  There are ways I could quickly generate masses of hobbyists joining my group, but then I would have to weed through them all to make sure nobody is abusing the rules or posting spam, needing to be deleted, etc.  I have had 7 new members join just in the past 24 hrs.  But there are MANY aquarium based groups on facebook depending on what a person is interested in and how much bs they want to deal with in regards to fighting/arguing, morals, ethics, etc.  Some openly welcome the behaviors my friend & I work so hard to keep out of our group, and there are many where the advice being given out is a crap shoot in regards to accuracy, and attempting to correct someone on their misinformation can be a vulgar, heated, lengthy exchange.  I have no interest in doing battle with thousands of people over the accuracy of their information so I restrict myself to just my group and visiting the TFH group along with another group that specifically focus's on the saltwater/reef side of the hobby.

In regards to Yahoo and this new format, I hate it.  It has made posting in the group, finding things in the group, etc. much more time consuming and confusing.  As my schedule gets busier I just have less time to navigate through the Yahoo mess and Yahoo email hasn't been much better.  With facebook it's easier to write quick posts and get them out to the group immediately without having to wait for things such as Yahoo's lag time, which I find very frustrating. 

There is no harm in adding facebook to your list of groups to visit just to get a feel for things and test the waters.  Maybe your wife could help you with that before you decide you want to join and interact fully?  If there's anything I can do to help anyone interested in checking out the facebook groups please just let me know. 

I do want to note that in spite of facebook, I do still find my way back here as often as I'm able simply because I enjoy the people here too.  As much as facebook is my new "home base" I have no intentions of leaving this group as long as it's here.  :-)  Sometimes the slower pace here on Yahoo is a welcomed stress reliever.

Dawn   


Group: AquaticLife Message: 55937 From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c Date: 4/30/2014
Subject: Re: Tis so quiet....
Bill,
I know it sounds confusing but once you get used to it, it really isn't so bad... it's just different. 
"Friending" people is how you connect with them on your personal page, and yes, you do need to know their name or email address in order to find them. 
In regards to finding my particular group, you would either need to know the name of it, have a direct link for it, or I would have to personally invite you to it.  However, with that said... if you want to find other fish groups there is a search function on facebook that is pretty easy to use.  You can browse the various groups that come up, read their initial statement in their "about" section, and then decide whether or not you wish to browse around or not.  Some groups are open to all/general public, some are "closed" and you can look through them but not post unless you join, and some of those require approval by an administrator, and still others are private and nobody can get into them without an invitation. 

If you should decide to join facebook and give it a try and would like some help in navigating things, please let me know.  I would be more than happy to offer my assistance and would be more than happy to have you as my friend there too.  With your wife to help on your end, I'm sure we could teach you the "facebook way" pretty quickly.  :-)  The chat feature allows for us to leave private messages to each other (whether we are friends or not) and the live chat is easy to use and shows at the bottom of your page while you navigate through facebook pages, so there is no going back n forth from 2 different programs or worry of being cut off from each other as you move from page to page within facebook.  I have done this for other friends in the past and everyone so far has caught on rather quickly, even those who were not real computer literate. 

Now for the benefit of Ray and the other mods here in the group, I want to make it known to EVERYONE who reads this... while I am happy to help any of the group members here to learn to navigate and use facebook and I welcome any of this group's members to my fish group on facebook, I do NOT want people to leave this group in favor or mine over there.  I do NOT want to see this group fall apart if there is anything I can do to help hold it together.  I think this is a good place, a fun place, and a very helpful place for all.  And as I mentioned yesterday, I personally have on intentions of leaving this group for as long as it is here.  The slower pace of this group can be a huge relief and very welcome in our new fast paced world and I would very much miss all of this in spite of the new difficulties of navigation that Yahoo has forced on us all.  My invitation to join my facebook group does extend to the mods in this group as well.  The only thing I ask is that as I respect the rules of this group, all who join mine, respect the rules there.  Whether I am friends with people or not, anyone who abuses or ignores the rules of my group gets removed quickly and is not allowed to return. 

And lastly, Bill, I'd like to address your question about people getting angry about not being friended on facebook.  I'm sure some do, but I don't let myself worry about that nor do I make it my problem.  Of my many family members, other than my children, my mother, and 2 of my cousins, I have not friended any of my family on facebook.  My mother and I don't communicate via facebook, I simply use it to keep an eye on her since she is now widowed and elderly.  She and I both play one of the same facebook games, so we send things back and forth to each other via the game to help each other advance, and in that way I know she's ok and functioning on the other end without having to speak to her directly.  (we don't get along)  There have been people who have sent me friends requests that I have simply ignored, and others that I have blocked.  Those that I have blocked cannot even find my page on facebook (one of the security features) and those I have ignored their request can find only my main home page and basic info that I have allowed to be viewed by the public.  Facebook offers a wide variety of privacy settings that I encourage everyone to examine and utilize if they should join.  It's an easy way to avoid conflict and to avoid bothersome people you don't wish to communicate with, and it's also an easy way to keep your personal information private.  This includes your basic page as well as all photos you put into your own albums or on your page.  You also have the ability to prevent others from sharing your photos and information, aka becoming a gateway to the outside world.  So put simply, if someone gets upset, it becomes their problem and they have no way to bother me with it.

I don't mind taking a bit of time from my schedule to explain this to anyone here or to help anyone who wishes to make the transition to adding facebook to their online world.  I have been here to help since I joined this group and that has not changed. 

I hope all of this info helps.  :-)

Dawn       
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55938 From: jett07002 Date: 4/30/2014
Subject: Re: Fwd: Testing Only

OK.   Understood.


Just trying to be helpful.


Last you'll hear from me on the subject.


joe t

Group: AquaticLife Message: 55939 From: msbutterfly770 Date: 4/30/2014
Subject: Strange thing
My cat has decided that the 5 gallon tank I have for a few guppies is the puuurrrfect place for fresh water. Everyday she decides to sit there and watch them and then get a drink.

I do hope this won't make her sick.  If she were and outside feline, heaven knows what she might begetting and/o eating.

Group: AquaticLife Message: 55940 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 4/30/2014
Subject: Re: Does my goldy have a disease?
Hi Ken,

  What a perky looking little fish you have! In my opinion, those patches you refer to on his head are probably an excess production of slime coat & that condition is typically only visible in certain lights or from certain angles. Slime coat is a protective layer of mucus that serves to shield the fish from damage by sliding off any sharp or protruding object that may come into contact with the animal. I notice you have a small tunnel in your tank-does your fish go in there very much & possibly hangs out in there too?

The reason I ask is because I also have a tunnel in my tank & my fish often sit or sleep in there. When they do, if the top of their heads are in contact with the top of the tunnel for any length of time [say several hours at night for instance] the prolonged contact seems to generate uneven slime coat growth on the part of their bodies that was touching the tunnel although these symptoms usually disappear in a day or so. How long have you noticed it on your fish? If it is indeed an excess of slime coat due to touching some decor then you have absolutely nothing to worry about. The salt will strip the slime coat but that in turn will stimulate the fish to generate more which will very likely even out the depth of the slime coat over the entire fish so the patches will disappear.

  John<o)))<




On 29 April 2014 23:55, <megablasto2000@...> wrote:
 

Hi guys,


I just posted some photos of my fantail goldy in the photo section.  There is also a video:   http://youtu.be/Yw6KqWL2jMI


I'm not sure if my goldy has a disease or not.  It is very hard to tell at this point.  But basically, I see what look like pale, barely discernible, white patches on my goldy's head, between the eyes.  I took a video and posted snapshots from the video. They are not that great but give an idea of what I think I'm seeing.  I talked to some people in a local fish discussion group on Facebook, but no one seems to be no agreement what disease it is, or if there is even an issue in the first place.  I'm still not sure myself, because I can only notice it under really good light at the proper angle.  Can't say I noticed this before, but I also can't say I was looking for it either.  Maybe it has always been there?


So far my goldy seem to behave fine.  I did notice today a little spot or something on the very tip end of his tail, which I also took a photo of, and highlighted.


I am kinda baffled, if this is a disease, because the water parameters have been very good - zero ammonia, neutral pH, zero nitrites, and acceptable nitrates.  Also, he is the only fish in the tank for the past month or so, and I have owned this fish for nearly a year already.


What do you guys think?  Just out of caution, I decided to add some aquarium salt to the water (3 teaspoons to 15 gallon).


-Ken


Group: AquaticLife Message: 55941 From: Terri Ferrier Date: 4/30/2014
Subject: Re: Strange thing

I have a 5 gallon tank that houses my electric blue crayfish and my cat does the same thing.  It's got a cover on it but he drinks out of the top of the filter.

 

Terri

 


From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of msbutterfly770@...
Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2014 6:45 PM
To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AquaticLife] Strange thing

 



My cat has decided that the 5 gallon tank I have for a few guppies is the puuurrrfect place for fresh water. Everyday she decides to sit there and watch them and then get a drink.

I do hope this won't make her sick.  If she were and outside feline, heaven knows what she might begetting and/o eating.


Group: AquaticLife Message: 55942 From: alasse_au Date: 4/30/2014
Subject: Re: Strange thing

Both of my cats drink from whatever tank they can get too, been doing it for years.


Tis fishy tasting filtered water I spose lol

Group: AquaticLife Message: 55943 From: annabellesmom2000 Date: 5/1/2014
Subject: Re: New Tank
Hi, it's Linda again.  I'm feeling remarkably dumb about this but I wanted to clarify--when I start the ammonia do I also add bacteria at the same time or later or what? 

I haven't gotten the ammonia yet.  Last time I was in the pet store I saw it there.  But of course now it's not there.  I checked both pet stores and no luck. Then I found ammonia in Walmart but I'm not sure if its clear or sudsy.  It doesn't specifically say and when I shook it it foamed (but I don't know if that has anything to do with it, maybe all ammonia foams)  The ingredients say ammonia plus surfectant.  So can I use that or just keep looking for straight ammonia with no additives? I'm going to try to get to the grocery store today to see if they have a different type of ammonia.

Neither of the local pet stores carry Dr. Tim products, but I found that Drs. Smith & Foster do carry those products so I guess I will be ordering the nitrifying bacteria from them.

Has anyone ordered fish from Smith & Foster?  Again my local pet stores don't carry some of the fish I'd like to have.  Is it safe to order them online?  Or do you have the pet store order them?  Will they?  This is one of those times I get frustrated at living in rural America.  Very few local resources for things like this.

Linda
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55944 From: deenerzz Date: 5/1/2014
Subject: Re: New Tank
Hi Linda,

I will let someone else reply that has more knowledge about the ammonia.

Dr. Tim's products can be purchased direct from his web page.  If you join his mailing list there seem to be frequent discounts.

I have not purchased from Dr. Fosters and Smith, maybe some dry goods in the past but never fish.  You can always try WWW.Aquabid.com  Many of the sellers there raise their own fish and sell there. This is a great place to get rare or uncommon fish.  I just purchased some fish food on there from a seller I have been buying from for several years. Great price, he throws in samples of his other products. The fish seem to really enjoy the food. Just like ebay, check the feedback on sellers before you buy.

Have you tried your closest craigslist city?  Sometimes people sell there fish there. I belong to an Aquarium society and once a month we have a guest speaker and an auction. Sellers auction off their dry goods, their live plants as well fish.  I get a majority of my fish and dry goods at my club's monthly auction.  See if there is a club within driving distance.

Have to run to work now,

Good luck.

Mike




-----Original Message-----
From: Linda <Linda@...>
To: AquaticLife <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thu, May 1, 2014 10:49 am
Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Tank

 
Hi, it's Linda again.  I'm feeling remarkably dumb about this but I wanted to clarify--when I start the ammonia do I also add bacteria at the same time or later or what? 

I haven't gotten the ammonia yet.  Last time I was in the pet store I saw it there.  But of course now it's not there.  I checked both pet stores and no luck. Then I found ammonia in Walmart but I'm not sure if its clear or sudsy.  It doesn't specifically say and when I shook it it foamed (but I don't know if that has anything to do with it, maybe all ammonia foams)  The ingredients say ammonia plus surfectant.  So can I use that or just keep looking for straight ammonia with no additives? I'm going to try to get to the grocery store today to see if they have a different type of ammonia.

Neither of the local pet stores carry Dr. Tim products, but I found that Drs. Smith & Foster do carry those products so I guess I will be ordering the nitrifying bacteria from them.

Has anyone ordered fish from Smith & Foster?  Again my local pet stores don't carry some of the fish I'd like to have.  Is it safe to order them online?  Or do you have the pet store order them?  Will they?  This is one of those times I get frustrated at living in rural America.  Very few local resources for things like this.

Linda
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55945 From: rburrg Date: 5/1/2014
Subject: Re: Strange thing
Not healthy for the fish if your cat has recently been dosed with one of the popular flea and tick insecticides you put behind their neck.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55946 From: ptimlin Date: 5/1/2014
Subject: Re: Strange thing
Like others, same thing here. I have a roughly 2.5 gallon tank in my kitchen which just houses some common guppies and java ferns. Our cat has been drinking out of it for years with no issues.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55947 From: sevenspringss Date: 5/1/2014
Subject: Re: New Tank
AOL Email
Linda,
 
I'm going to give this a try in seeing if it posts.  If you're going to add Dr. Tim's One and Only, there's no need for ammonia.  You can add the fish within 12 hours of adding the bacteria additive.  One thing you'll need to watch for when receiving it from DrsFosterSmith -- be sure it's still cold when you open it.  It should be shipped with ice packs so that warm weather doesn't kill it in transit, as can happen if the product got too warm/hot.
 
Ray -- Moderator
 
 
In a message dated 5/1/2014 1:49:13 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, Linda@... writes:
 

Hi, it's Linda again.  I'm feeling remarkably dumb about this but I wanted to clarify--when I start the ammonia do I also add bacteria at the same time or later or what? 

I haven't gotten the ammonia yet.  Last time I was in the pet store I saw it there.  But of course now it's not there.  I checked both pet stores and no luck. Then I found ammonia in Walmart but I'm not sure if its clear or sudsy.  It doesn't specifically say and when I shook it it foamed (but I don't know if that has anything to do with it, maybe all ammonia foams)  The ingredients say ammonia plus surfectant.  So can I use that or just keep looking for straight ammonia with no additives? I'm going to try to get to the grocery store today to see if they have a different type of ammonia.

Neither of the local pet stores carry Dr. Tim products, but I found that Drs. Smith & Foster do carry those products so I guess I will be ordering the nitrifying bacteria from them.

Has anyone ordered fish from Smith & Foster?  Again my local pet stores don't carry some of the fish I'd like to have.  Is it safe to order them online?  Or do you have the pet store order them?  Will they?  This is one of those times I get frustrated at living in rural America.  Very few local resources for things like this.

Linda

Group: AquaticLife Message: 55948 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 5/1/2014
Subject: Re: New Tank
Hi Linda,

  You need to use the clear ammonia-the sudsy ammonia has got other stuff in as you mentioned & so is no good for cycling your tank. I understand you are in a very rural area & there is not many outlets nearby but is it possible to order it online like the bacteria?

  John<o)))<


On 1 May 2014 17:10, <Linda@...> wrote:
 

Hi, it's Linda again.  I'm feeling remarkably dumb about this but I wanted to clarify--when I start the ammonia do I also add bacteria at the same time or later or what? 

I haven't gotten the ammonia yet.  Last time I was in the pet store I saw it there.  But of course now it's not there.  I checked both pet stores and no luck. Then I found ammonia in Walmart but I'm not sure if its clear or sudsy.  It doesn't specifically say and when I shook it it foamed (but I don't know if that has anything to do with it, maybe all ammonia foams)  The ingredients say ammonia plus surfectant.  So can I use that or just keep looking for straight ammonia with no additives? I'm going to try to get to the grocery store today to see if they have a different type of ammonia.

Neither of the local pet stores carry Dr. Tim products, but I found that Drs. Smith & Foster do carry those products so I guess I will be ordering the nitrifying bacteria from them.

Has anyone ordered fish from Smith & Foster?  Again my local pet stores don't carry some of the fish I'd like to have.  Is it safe to order them online?  Or do you have the pet store order them?  Will they?  This is one of those times I get frustrated at living in rural America.  Very few local resources for things like this.

Linda


Group: AquaticLife Message: 55949 From: Amber Date: 5/1/2014
Subject: Re: New Tank
Surfactant is soap, so no you can't use that one.

Amber

On Thu, 01 May 2014 08:10:10 -0800, <Linda@...> wrote:

 

Hi, it's Linda again.  I'm feeling remarkably dumb about this but I wanted to clarify--when I start the ammonia do I also add bacteria at the same time or later or what? 

I haven't gotten the ammonia yet.  Last time I was in the pet store I saw it there.  But of course now it's not there.  I checked both pet stores and no luck. Then I found ammonia in Walmart but I'm not sure if its clear or sudsy.  It doesn't specifically say and when I shook it it foamed (but I don't know if that has anything to do with it, maybe all ammonia foams)  The ingredients say ammonia plus surfectant.  So can I use that or just keep looking for straight ammonia with no additives? I'm going to try to get to the grocery store today to see if they have a different type of ammonia.

Neither of the local pet stores carry Dr. Tim products, but I found that Drs. Smith & Foster do carry those products so I guess I will be ordering the nitrifying bacteria from them.

Has anyone ordered fish from Smith & Foster?  Again my local pet stores don't carry some of the fish I'd like to have.  Is it safe to order them online?  Or do you have the pet store order them?  Will they?  This is one of those times I get frustrated at living in rural America.  Very few local resources for things like this.

Linda




--
Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55950 From: Donna Ransome Date: 5/1/2014
Subject: Re: New Tank

Use directions for ammonia on the bottle of bacteria you use.

 

No surfectants in your ammonia…ammonia only.

 

There are lots of online vendors…what kind of fish are you buying?  I’ve seen fish misidentified on Dr. Fosters and Smith so I’d buy elsewhere.

 


From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Deenerz@...
Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2014 2:08 PM
To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Tank

 

 

Hi Linda,

I will let someone else reply that has more knowledge about the ammonia.

Dr. Tim's products can be purchased direct from his web page.  If you join his mailing list there seem to be frequent discounts.

I have not purchased from Dr. Fosters and Smith, maybe some dry goods in the past but never fish.  You can always try WWW.Aquabid.com  Many of the sellers there raise their own fish and sell there. This is a great place to get rare or uncommon fish.  I just purchased some fish food on there from a seller I have been buying from for several years. Great price, he throws in samples of his other products. The fish seem to really enjoy the food. Just like ebay, check the feedback on sellers before you buy.

Have you tried your closest craigslist city?  Sometimes people sell there fish there. I belong to an Aquarium society and once a month we have a guest speaker and an auction. Sellers auction off their dry goods, their live plants as well fish.  I get a majority of my fish and dry goods at my club's monthly auction.  See if there is a club within driving distance.

Have to run to work now,

Good luck.

Mike

 

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Linda <Linda@...>
To: AquaticLife < AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com >
Sent: Thu, May 1, 2014 10:49 am
Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Tank

 

Hi, it's Linda again.  I'm feeling remarkably dumb about this but I wanted to clarify--when I start the ammonia do I also add bacteria at the same time or later or what? 

I haven't gotten the ammonia yet.  Last time I was in the pet store I saw it there.  But of course now it's not there.  I checked both pet stores and no luck. Then I found ammonia in Walmart but I'm not sure if its clear or sudsy.  It doesn't specifically say and when I shook it it foamed (but I don't know if that has anything to do with it, maybe all ammonia foams)  The ingredients say ammonia plus surfectant.  So can I use that or just keep looking for straight ammonia with no additives? I'm going to try to get to the grocery store today to see if they have a different type of ammonia.

Neither of the local pet stores carry Dr. Tim products, but I found that Drs. Smith & Foster do carry those products so I guess I will be ordering the nitrifying bacteria from them.

Has anyone ordered fish from Smith & Foster?  Again my local pet stores don't carry some of the fish I'd like to have.  Is it safe to order them online?  Or do you have the pet store order them?  Will they?  This is one of those times I get frustrated at living in rural America .  Very few local resources for things like this.

Linda

Group: AquaticLife Message: 55951 From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c Date: 5/1/2014
Subject: Re: Does my goldy have a disease?
Based on those photos and that video it is impossible to diagnose anything with any sense of accuracy.  One thing that concerns me is his size vs his age.  At over a year old (since you've had him almost a year) that fish shouldn't fit into a 15 gallon tank comfortably, which tells me it is very likely stunted.  Stunting of growth can bring a lot of other issues with it, such as problems with organ function... which is potentially what you may be seeing early signs of based on your description. 
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55952 From: megablasto2000 Date: 5/1/2014
Subject: Re: Does my goldy have a disease?
Actually, it is a 20 gallon, but the 20 gallon is on a kitchen counter, and I don't know if it can support 20 full gallons of water on it or not.  He has been in a full 20 gallon until a couple weeks ago.   It is a temporary placement until I get my stand leveled (this weekend) for the 50 gallon I just bought.

He seems to be pretty happy.  I have been keeping an eye on him over the past few days.  I think John may be right, it is just a slime coat that I never noticed.  It has not gotten worse, and it is pretty hard to tell if there is anything to even see.  He is the only fish in there, so I don't see how he would have an infection. Plus, when I first got him, he was medicated with Tetra Lifeguard for a week.

Unless something more obvious pops up in the next week or two, I guess I will just chalk it up to nothing to be concerned about.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55953 From: megablasto2000 Date: 5/2/2014
Subject: Re: Does my goldy have a disease?
Dawn, what group are you on on Facebook?

-Ken
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55954 From: megablasto2000 Date: 5/2/2014
Subject: Re: Does my goldy have a disease?
Dawn, what group are on you on Facebook?

-Ken B.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55955 From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c Date: 5/3/2014
Subject: Re: Does my goldy have a disease?
Ken,
I didn't think it was appropriate to post that here in the group without the permission from the mods, so please check your email... I sent you the direct link. 

Dawn
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55956 From: love_animals07 Date: 5/6/2014
Subject: One heater, two ick infested tanks...
Hello... I'll make this short, I guess.

I just got four tiger barbs today. The tanks at PetSmart did have some ick'd fish in them, so I figured I'd come home, move the heater out of my molly's tank who have been over ick for several weeks now, and treat the barbs for it right from the start (86-88 degree water for 2 weeks.) So, I set up the quarantine tank, moved the heater over, put my power head in, took the extra airstone out of the molly's tank, and took a couple of decoations out of the mollies and and put them into the quarantine tank.

Then, I plugged the molly's light back in, fixed their filter, and turned the light on. SURPRISE! Your molly that you thought was cured has ick again...

Now what? I only have on heater. Could I give the tiger barbs and the mollies a try and see if I can't treat that whole tank? I'm afraid I'm going to loose that molly anyway. It's been too long, from the looks of it.

The only problem is, I'm used to ick looking like salt grains. This fish appears to have fungus on it's eye and the "ick" spots are larger than I'm used to. I'll get a picture up of her for sure. Maybe I'm overreacting, but this doesn't look like an ick I'm used to...


Group: AquaticLife Message: 55957 From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c Date: 5/8/2014
Subject: Re: One heater, two ick infested tanks...
From your description it doesn't sound like your molly has ich.  She may have a bacterial or even fungal infection going on.  A photo will help to determine that. 
Please do not put your molly with tiger barbs.  Even very small tiger barbs would chew her up in a hurry, most especially if she's sick.  You also risk the tiger barbs contracting whatever illness your molly has, and thus risk losing ALL of the fish. 

Regardless of how you approach this you are going to need a 2nd heater.  Both of those species are tropical and they are not compatible in the same tank.  You can dose the molly tank with salt (if it's only mollys in there; if there are other fish with her then I would ask you to please post all of the species so we can determine if salt is safe to use in that tank) to help.  Mollys do very well in brackish water and have fewer health issues when kept in brackish water.  Brackish conditions should be worked up to slowly, over the course of a week or 2, not all at once.

Dawn
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55958 From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c Date: 5/8/2014
Subject: Re: One heater, two ick infested tanks...
I just viewed your posted photos of the molly.  That does not look like ich, but rather a fungal infection as I first suspected.  Methylene blue alongside of salt will help to treat that.  Again, only add salt if the only fish in the tank are mollys or other livebearers.  If there are other fish in the tank, please post a complete list of the other species and we can determine if salt is safe for all in the tank and offer up an appropriate dosage.

Dawn
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55959 From: love_animals07 Date: 5/8/2014
Subject: Re: One heater, two ick infested tanks...
Thanks to both of you... I did get the same answer of an infection from someone on the forum I'm part of and it's nice to have someone back that up.

I'm treating the tank with MelaFix and PrimaFix as of right now. I just got the bottle of PrimaFix (active ingredent of Pimenta racemosa) and have been using the MelaFix for about 3 days now (active ingredent of 1.0% Melaleuca.

Momma, as I call the black guppy, is doing much better these last couple of days. She seems to have lost some of the patching on her body and is swimming around.

It seems that the mixture of PrimaFix and MelaFix (I am told by both of the bottles that they can be used together at full strength.) is creating more bubbling than normal around the air filter.

Also, Momma's poop was black when I checked on her just a few minutes ago and was hanging from her.

And, I will not put the tiger barbs with the mollies. I'm not even considering it now that I know she didn't get ick again. The barbs are going into a 55 gallon tank with 4 other tiger barbs and 3 sharks (2 balas and a rainbow. I'm upgrading as soon as I can to a 125 for the bala sharks.)

My house keeps the 10 gallons at about 75 degrees naturally and our furnace keeps the house from falling below 73 degrees even when it's cold outside. The heater was in the tanks only for ick treatment, but I am going to move it back to the molly's tank in 2 weeks after the tigers are moved out of quarantine.

The mollies are the only fish in the tank. 5 of them are babies. Yes, it's a 10 gallon tank which is small for mollies. I'm actually hoping on them breeding and I'm not worried about overstocking thanks to my painted turtle in another tank. I know, that's sort of cruel of me...

I hope I didn't forget any of your questions/ concerns....
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55960 From: sally.blackhawks@btinternet.com Date: 5/8/2014
Subject: Re: One heater, two ick infested tanks...

V.
Pq

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android



From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c@... <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...>;
To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>;
Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: One heater, two ick infested tanks...
Sent: Thu, May 8, 2014 4:24:05 PM

 

I just viewed your posted photos of the molly.  That does not look like ich, but rather a fungal infection as I first suspected.  Methylene blue alongside of salt will help to treat that.  Again, only add salt if the only fish in the tank are mollys or other livebearers.  If there are other fish in the tank, please post a complete list of the other species and we can determine if salt is safe for all in the tank and offer up an appropriate dosage.

Dawn

Group: AquaticLife Message: 55961 From: Amber Date: 5/8/2014
Subject: Re: One heater, two ick infested tanks...
If you do happen to add salt to your molly tank (which I also recommend, mine are much healthier in a brackish tank than regular freshwater), make sure to mix the salt in with tank water until it dissolves before you pour the salt water mixture into the tank. If the fish eat the salt granules it can burn their gills.

Amber

On Thu, 08 May 2014 11:38:59 -0800, <love_animals07@...> wrote:

 

Thanks to both of you... I did get the same answer of an infection from someone on the forum I'm part of and it's nice to have someone back that up.

I'm treating the tank with MelaFix and PrimaFix as of right now. I just got the bottle of PrimaFix (active ingredent of Pimenta racemosa) and have been using the MelaFix for about 3 days now (active ingredent of 1.0% Melaleuca.

Momma, as I call the black guppy, is doing much better these last couple of days. She seems to have lost some of the patching on her body and is swimming around.

It seems that the mixture of PrimaFix and MelaFix (I am told by both of the bottles that they can be used together at full strength.) is creating more bubbling than normal around the air filter.

Also, Momma's poop was black when I checked on her just a few minutes ago and was hanging from her.

And, I will not put the tiger barbs with the mollies. I'm not even considering it now that I know she didn't get ick again. The barbs are going into a 55 gallon tank with 4 other tiger barbs and 3 sharks (2 balas and a rainbow. I'm upgrading as soon as I can to a 125 for the bala sharks.)

My house keeps the 10 gallons at about 75 degrees naturally and our furnace keeps the house from falling below 73 degrees even when it's cold outside. The heater was in the tanks only for ick treatment, but I am going to move it back to the molly's tank in 2 weeks after the tigers are moved out of quarantine.

The mollies are the only fish in the tank. 5 of them are babies. Yes, it's a 10 gallon tank which is small for mollies. I'm actually hoping on them breeding and I'm not worried about overstocking thanks to my painted turtle in another tank. I know, that's sort of cruel of me...

I hope I didn't forget any of your questions/ concerns....




--
Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55962 From: love_animals07 Date: 5/9/2014
Subject: Re: One heater, two ick infested tanks...
Thanks for the suggestion. I'm waiting on having some extra money so I can buy a barometer and some reef salt (mostly for my Nerite Snails) and making the tank, slowly, into a brackish tank. I just haven't managed to buy the salt and everything else yet.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55963 From: db1433 Date: 5/12/2014
Subject: You WHO Ray?


Hi Ray,

I just had I problem getting this far myself.  I gotcha!  But I was hoping for some light ………………somewhere.  Just one last yahoo question?  Is it possible for you to go to your “Yahoo Groups Page”?  If you can successfully log onto this page and see ALL of your groups, then I am thinking you have a “transmission” problem.  BUT………………………………..


Should it be that you cannot even get this far then they must be able to help you to at least log on.  If they are telling you that “you can’t get there from here” type of thing then they need to relook at their Neo program because there is a hole in it already!


Even so logging on, but not being able to send from inside of a group is also their problem.  Are there any moderators that you know of that have a setup simialair to your that you can compare notes with?

Bill




Group: AquaticLife Message: 55964 From: sevenspringss Date: 5/12/2014
Subject: Re: You WHO Ray?
AOL Email
Bill,
 
If I go to "Yahoo Groups" < www.yahoogroups.com > then it asks me to Browse but doesn't list my groups.  If I go to any of the groups I'm on, it will go to that group but will list all of the groups I'm on, on the left hand side.  Ever since Neo came in, that's the format they display on my home page.  I don't see how I'd have a transmission problem when my messages are transmitted to the group.  They're just not sent back out as a post to anyone's mail box but they're found on the home page.  When I just now went up on the AquaticLife group, I was already logged in there.  No. I don't know what any of the other moderators have for a set up.  Well, I'm out to mow the lawn now.  Was just about to do that yesterday afternoon when my neighbor started having people over for as party and I didn't want to disturb the peace & quite.
 
Ray
 
In a message dated 5/12/2014 12:54:20 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
 


Hi Ray,

I just had I problem getting this far myself.  I gotcha!  But I was hoping for some light ………………somewhere.  Just one last yahoo question?  Is it possible for you to go to your “Yahoo Groups Page”?  If you can successfully log onto this page and see ALL of your groups, then I am thinking you have a “transmission” problem.  BUT………………………………..


Should it be that you cannot even get this far then they must be able to help you to at least log on.  If they are telling you that “you can’t get there from here” type of thing then they need to relook at their Neo program because there is a hole in it already!


Even so logging on, but not being able to send from inside of a group is also their problem.  Are there any moderators that you know of that have a setup simialair to your that you can compare notes with?

Bill




Group: AquaticLife Message: 55965 From: MASENGESHO Eric poponi Date: 5/13/2014
Subject: Re: You WHO Ray?
really i do finish my university studies in wildlife and aquatic resource management and  i wont to increase my practical skills  so if anyone among the  group members can help me to get an internship he/she can contact me on email masericpopo@...  i'm in Africa in developing country Rwanda where fisheries are not developed
I'm looking forward to hear from you.


                                                                                thank you 

Le Lundi 12 mai 2014 22h52, "sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> a écrit :
 
Bill,
 
If I go to "Yahoo Groups" < www.yahoogroups.com > then it asks me to Browse but doesn't list my groups.  If I go to any of the groups I'm on, it will go to that group but will list all of the groups I'm on, on the left hand side.  Ever since Neo came in, that's the format they display on my home page.  I don't see how I'd have a transmission problem when my messages are transmitted to the group.  They're just not sent back out as a post to anyone's mail box but they're found on the home page.  When I just now went up on the AquaticLife group, I was already logged in there.  No. I don't know what any of the other moderators have for a set up.  Well, I'm out to mow the lawn now.  Was just about to do that yesterday afternoon when my neighbor started having people over for as party and I didn't want to disturb the peace & quite.
 
Ray
 
In a message dated 5/12/2014 12:54:20 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
 

Hi Ray,
I just had I problem getting this far myself.  I gotcha!  But I was hoping for some light ………………somewhere.  Just one last yahoo question?  Is it possible for you to go to your “Yahoo Groups Pageâ€?  If you can successfully log onto this page and see ALL of your groups, then I am thinking you have a “transmission†problem.  BUT………………………………..

Should it be that you cannot even get this far then they must be able to help you to at least log on.  If they are telling you that “you can’t get there from here†type of thing then they need to relook at their Neo program because there is a hole in it already!

Even so logging on, but not being able to send from inside of a group is also their problem.  Are there any moderators that you know of that have a setup simialair to your that you can compare notes with?
Bill





Group: AquaticLife Message: 55966 From: MASENGESHO Eric poponi Date: 5/13/2014
Subject: Re: You WHO Ray?
really i do finish my university studies in wildlife and aquatic resource management and  i wont to increase my practical skills  so if anyone among the  group members can help me to get an internship he/she can contact me on email masericpopo@...  i'm in Africa in developing country Rwanda where fisheries are not developed
I'm looking forward to hear from you.


                                                                                thank you 

Le Lundi 12 mai 2014 22h52, "sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> a écrit :
 
Bill,
 
If I go to "Yahoo Groups" < www.yahoogroups.com > then it asks me to Browse but doesn't list my groups.  If I go to any of the groups I'm on, it will go to that group but will list all of the groups I'm on, on the left hand side.  Ever since Neo came in, that's the format they display on my home page.  I don't see how I'd have a transmission problem when my messages are transmitted to the group.  They're just not sent back out as a post to anyone's mail box but they're found on the home page.  When I just now went up on the AquaticLife group, I was already logged in there.  No. I don't know what any of the other moderators have for a set up.  Well, I'm out to mow the lawn now.  Was just about to do that yesterday afternoon when my neighbor started having people over for as party and I didn't want to disturb the peace & quite.
 
Ray
 
In a message dated 5/12/2014 12:54:20 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
 

Hi Ray,
I just had I problem getting this far myself.  I gotcha!  But I was hoping for some light ………………somewhere.  Just one last yahoo question?  Is it possible for you to go to your “Yahoo Groups Pageâ€?  If you can successfully log onto this page and see ALL of your groups, then I am thinking you have a “transmission†problem.  BUT………………………………..

Should it be that you cannot even get this far then they must be able to help you to at least log on.  If they are telling you that “you can’t get there from here†type of thing then they need to relook at their Neo program because there is a hole in it already!

Even so logging on, but not being able to send from inside of a group is also their problem.  Are there any moderators that you know of that have a setup simialair to your that you can compare notes with?
Bill





Group: AquaticLife Message: 55967 From: ellie_anne_elliott Date: 5/16/2014
Subject: Pygmy Puffer Fish

Hi guys,


I have a mature 70litre freshwater tank set up, and I would like to keep freshwater pygmy puffers in it as a species only tank!


I had a couple of questions before we get them.


1) We had planned on getting 3 puffers, will this be an okay number for this size tank, or would more/less be better?


2) We already have Java Moss balls and Elodea pond weed planted up in the tank, do these guys like any other kinds of plants?


3) Do they prefer the filter rippling at the top or submerged?


4) The tank is in indirect sunlight during the day and lit up from behind by a kitchen unit light at night. I have not invested in a tank light as I heard they dont particularly like being lit up, is this correct?


5) Foodwise, are snails a good enough staple diet with occasional treats of blood worm, brine shrimp and slivers of fish, or are there better things to feed them daily?


6) If I put 2 adult Golden Apple Snails (4cm diameter) in with them, will they ignore the adults and just eat the babies?


Sorry about all the questions, I just want to make sure that I get this right from the beginning!


Ellie


Group: AquaticLife Message: 55968 From: Cheryl Kautz Date: 5/19/2014
Subject: Fw: [AquaticLife] Pygmy Puffer Fish
On Friday, May 16, 2014 9:01:10 AM, "evocated_undine@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 
  In the ocean Porcupine Puffer Fish can often be found in small groups but replicating this in the home aquarium can be foolish because of their potential adult size and because they can be one of the dirtier fishes to keep. They can reach 12 inches (30 cm) or more so you'll need to have a larger tank, preferably 100 gallons (380 liters) or larger. For most hobbyists, keeping multiple Porcupine Puffers would not be a good idea. 

Temperament / Behavior : This can be a cool fish in the right setup. They may nip at and eat smaller fish, invertebrates and crustaceans. This fish is NOT considered reef tank safe.

Porcupine Puffer Fish like to eat crustaceans so frozen meaty marine cubes work well as well as small pieces of fresh shrimp. Give them some of the herbivore frozen foods a few times per week and try to get them to eat vitamin enriched flake foods too.

Best the way to avoid from indirect sunlight. Can cause the temperature raised too warm from the indirect sunlight.

Cheryl *:) happy 
 
 
Hi guys,

I have a mature 70litre freshwater tank set up, and I would like to keep freshwater pygmy puffers in it as a species only tank!

I had a couple of questions before we get them.

1) We had planned on getting 3 puffers, will this be an okay number for this size tank, or would more/less be better?

2) We already have Java Moss balls and Elodea pond weed planted up in the tank, do these guys like any other kinds of plants?

3) Do they prefer the filter rippling at the top or submerged?

4) The tank is in indirect sunlight during the day and lit up from behind by a kitchen unit light at night. I have not invested in a tank light as I heard they dont particularly like being lit up, is this correct?

5) Foodwise, are snails a good enough staple diet with occasional treats of blood worm, brine shrimp and slivers of fish, or are there better things to feed them daily?

6) If I put 2 adult Golden Apple Snails (4cm diameter) in with them, will they ignore the adults and just eat the babies?

Sorry about all the questions, I just want to make sure that I get this right from the beginning!

Ellie



Group: AquaticLife Message: 55969 From: ellie_anne_elliott Date: 5/19/2014
Subject: Re: Fw: [AquaticLife] Pygmy Puffer Fish
Hi, thanks for replying, but just to clarify I have freshwater pygmy puffers as opposed to marine porcupine puffers. I would never contemplate keeping a group of those, especially not in such a tiny tank for their needs! Ellie
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55970 From: Amber Date: 5/20/2014
Subject: Re: Fw: [AquaticLife] Pygmy Puffer Fish
There's a brackish puffer that's also a dwarf, make sure you don't actually end up with a brackish one instead of freshwater. They have slightly different markings between the two.

Amber

On Mon, 19 May 2014 11:48:09 -0800, evocated_undine@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

Hi, thanks for replying, but just to clarify I have freshwater pygmy puffers as opposed to marine porcupine puffers. I would never contemplate keeping a group of those, especially not in such a tiny tank for their needs! Ellie




--
Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55971 From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c Date: 5/20/2014
Subject: Re: Pygmy Puffer Fish
Ellie, sorry it has taken me so long to reply to your original post, I have been extremely busy on this end.  Let me copy/paste them here in my message and put the answers after each one so I don't miss anything.
 

1) We had planned on getting 3 puffers, will this be an okay number for this size tank, or would more/less be better?
This may or may not work.  Every puffer has it's own unique personality.  The better chance is if you can get male/female together, but when they are young they are near impossible to sex, so this can be very difficult.  I only know one person who can usually sex them correctly, and he has been keeping them and sexing them for over 30 yrs, so he knows what he's looking for.  He has tried to teach me to do it but I have a difficult time seeing the differences because they are so slight.  It is all about their body shape, one is fuller in body than the other, but I can't remember which is which.

2) We already have Java Moss balls and Elodea pond weed planted up in the tank, do these guys like any other kinds of plants?
The species of plants doesn't matter, they are strict carnivore.  The only purpose of plants in their tank is for shelter & territory and they need extreme amounts of both.  They are tiny but they are extremely aggressive fish, even towards each other.  One thing that can help a little bit with the aggression levels is to add a few feeder guppies so they have something to chase other than just each other.  This can be messy as they chew on the feeder guppies so the guppies will need to be replaced as they die and removed from the tank, alongside of lots of water changes and good filtration.  The puffers need extremely clean water to stay healthy. 

3) Do they prefer the filter rippling at the top or submerged?
I have kept these guys in both types of situations and not found them to have a preference as long as the circulation within the tank doesn't bother their swimming.  They struggle to swim through heavy current, which causes stress.  Stressed puffers usually end up to be dead puffers. 

4) The tank is in indirect sunlight during the day and lit up from behind by a kitchen unit light at night. I have not invested in a tank light as I heard they dont particularly like being lit up, is this correct?
I would have to say this is incorrect, especially if you are keeping live plants in the tank.  The plants will require direct light, and the elodea will need moderate to high light to do well.  I have never had an issue keeping these guys in lighted tanks and have had them on/off for many yrs.  My last trio was in a 10 gallon tank, high light, extreme amount of plants (java fern, java moss, and various bunch plants) and 2 of the 3 lived for almost 7 yrs.  The 3rd one was killed by the other 2 within the first 6 months. 

5) Foodwise, are snails a good enough staple diet with occasional treats of blood worm, brine shrimp and slivers of fish, or are there better things to feed them daily?
Snails are a good staple diet along with any other meaty foods you can get them to eat, however, I must mention that they are very selective about the species of snails they will eat.  Ram's horn snails are the best option.  Trumpet snails they will want nothing to do with.  The size of the snails also makes a difference.  I spent years on behavioral studies on these guys and discovered they have very unique feeding habits.  Unlike other puffer species they do NOT crunch through the snail shells to get their food, but rather they "nip" at the foot of the snails as they move around, usually on the glass.  Each bite they take from a snail brings the snail's natural instinct of pulling up into it's shell for protection, so the puffer must move on to another snail.  This presents 2 problems.  1. It takes a LOT of snails to feed a single puffer enough to keep it healthy, and 2. It causes for a lot of dead uneaten snails to rot in the tank.  After a bite or 2 from the foot they tend to cause enough damage to the snail that it pulls up into the shell and dies over a period of 24 - 48 hrs.  Dead/dying snails pollute the tank water very quickly.  It took me a very long time to actually figure out what was happening in my puffer tanks and why... hours on end of sitting in front of the tank observing everything, day after day.  Larger snails were easier for the puffers to bite/eat, but they also polluted the tank faster.  Once a few bites have been taken from their foot they lose the ability to crawl/move around, so they die. 
My solution to making sure my puffers were always well fed and water clean, aside from many water changes and good filtration, was to deshell the snails myself and feed them to the puffers one at a time.  This was how I discovered why they dislike trumpet snails and won't eat them.  They will only consume snails that bleed red blood.  Trumpet snails have blue blood.  (I found this out in the process of deshelling them)  The puffers seem to know exactly what species of snail meat they are being offered just on sight, as they wouldn't even taste the trumpet snails.  I don't know if the trumpets are somehow toxic to them or just taste bad, but I went through a lot of trumpet snails before concluding it was hopeless to even offer them.  (trumpet snails are extremely difficult to deshell, too) 
Another good food for the puffers is live black worms... much healthier than blood worms, and a lot less messy.  Most of the puffers will eat the black worms readily, but they need to be offered only a few worms at a time and the food must be live.  It is rare to get a pea/dwarf/pygmy puffer to eat food that isn't live, so keep this in mind when making your choices.  Some can be taught, others will refuse and starve to death if not given live food.  Go easy on any food that isn't live until you know for sure your puffers will actually eat it.  Uneaten food is the easiest way to quickly pollute their water.  Scheduling water changes within 2 - 6 hrs of feeding time will help to avoid polluting the water.  (yes, this means at least a partial change each day)
Lastly about feeding is that these puffers, due to their feeding habits, should be fed multiple times each day to be sure they are getting enough food.  They are a constant forager with a high metabolism.  If you just put a bunch of snails into their tank for food and don't pay attention to their feeding habits, you will start to notice an excess of empty snail shells in the substrate but puffers that quickly lose weight or always appear to be underweight with hollowed out bellies.  Be aware of this and keep watch over them, take whatever steps are needed to make sure they get plenty of food into the fish and not just a few bites before it dies in the tank and the fish move on in search of something else.  They will NOT work to get/find food, they are opportunistic feeders. 

6) If I put 2 adult Golden Apple Snails (4cm diameter) in with them, will they ignore the adults and just eat the babies?
Not likely.  They will very likely take bites out of the feet of the adult snails until the snail is no longer able to move around on it's foot and dies.  See #5 above in regards to their feeding habits.

I hope this info helps.  If you have more questions please feel free to ask.  I will check back in here in the group within the next few days.

Dawn

Group: AquaticLife Message: 55972 From: Harry Leverett Date: 5/20/2014
Subject: Re: Pygmy Puffer Fish
Wow Dawn, that was a great post. I have no interest in Puffers but I read the whole thing. Fantastic answers ! Thank you every much !

Harry

Sent from my iPad

On May 20, 2014, at 1:48 PM, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

Ellie, sorry it has taken me so long to reply to your original post, I have been extremely busy on this end.  Let me copy/paste them here in my message and put the answers after each one so I don't miss anything.
 

1) We had planned on getting 3 puffers, will this be an okay number for this size tank, or would more/less be better?
This may or may not work.  Every puffer has it's own unique personality.  The better chance is if you can get male/female together, but when they are young they are near impossible to sex, so this can be very difficult.  I only know one person who can usually sex them correctly, and he has been keeping them and sexing them for over 30 yrs, so he knows what he's looking for.  He has tried to teach me to do it but I have a difficult time seeing the differences because they are so slight.  It is all about their body shape, one is fuller in body than the other, but I can't remember which is which.

2) We already have Java Moss balls and Elodea pond weed planted up in the tank, do these guys like any other kinds of plants?
The species of plants doesn't matter, they are strict carnivore.  The only purpose of plants in their tank is for shelter & territory and they need extreme amounts of both.  They are tiny but they are extremely aggressive fish, even towards each other.  One thing that can help a little bit with the aggression levels is to add a few feeder guppies so they have something to chase other than just each other.  This can be messy as they chew on the feeder guppies so the guppies will need to be replaced as they die and removed from the tank, alongside of lots of water changes and good filtration.  The puffers need extremely clean water to stay healthy. 

3) Do they prefer the filter rippling at the top or submerged?
I have kept these guys in both types of situations and not found them to have a preference as long as the circulation within the tank doesn't bother their swimming.  They struggle to swim through heavy current, which causes stress.  Stressed puffers usually end up to be dead puffers. 

4) The tank is in indirect sunlight during the day and lit up from behind by a kitchen unit light at night. I have not invested in a tank light as I heard they dont particularly like being lit up, is this correct?
I would have to say this is incorrect, especially if you are keeping live plants in the tank.  The plants will require direct light, and the elodea will need moderate to high light to do well.  I have never had an issue keeping these guys in lighted tanks and have had them on/off for many yrs.  My last trio was in a 10 gallon tank, high light, extreme amount of plants (java fern, java moss, and various bunch plants) and 2 of the 3 lived for almost 7 yrs.  The 3rd one was killed by the other 2 within the first 6 months. 

5) Foodwise, are snails a good enough staple diet with occasional treats of blood worm, brine shrimp and slivers of fish, or are there better things to feed them daily?
Snails are a good staple diet along with any other meaty foods you can get them to eat, however, I must mention that they are very selective about the species of snails they will eat.  Ram's horn snails are the best option.  Trumpet snails they will want nothing to do with.  The size of the snails also makes a difference.  I spent years on behavioral studies on these guys and discovered they have very unique feeding habits.  Unlike other puffer species they do NOT crunch through the snail shells to get their food, but rather they "nip" at the foot of the snails as they move around, usually on the glass.  Each bite they take from a snail brings the snail's natural instinct of pulling up into it's shell for protection, so the puffer must move on to another snail.  This presents 2 problems.  1. It takes a LOT of snails to feed a single puffer enough to keep it healthy, and 2. It causes for a lot of dead uneaten snails to rot in the tank.  After a bite or 2 from the foot they tend to cause enough damage to the snail that it pulls up into the shell and dies over a period of 24 - 48 hrs.  Dead/dying snails pollute the tank water very quickly.  It took me a very long time to actually figure out what was happening in my puffer tanks and why... hours on end of sitting in front of the tank observing everything, day after day.  Larger snails were easier for the puffers to bite/eat, but they also polluted the tank faster.  Once a few bites have been taken from their foot they lose the ability to crawl/move around, so they die. 
My solution to making sure my puffers were always well fed and water clean, aside from many water changes and good filtration, was to deshell the snails myself and feed them to the puffers one at a time.  This was how I discovered why they dislike trumpet snails and won't eat them.  They will only consume snails that bleed red blood.  Trumpet snails have blue blood.  (I found this out in the process of deshelling them)  The puffers seem to know exactly what species of snail meat they are being offered just on sight, as they wouldn't even taste the trumpet snails.  I don't know if the trumpets are somehow toxic to them or just taste bad, but I went through a lot of trumpet snails before concluding it was hopeless to even offer them.  (trumpet snails are extremely difficult to deshell, too) 
Another good food for the puffers is live black worms... much healthier than blood worms, and a lot less messy.  Most of the puffers will eat the black worms readily, but they need to be offered only a few worms at a time and the food must be live.  It is rare to get a pea/dwarf/pygmy puffer to eat food that isn't live, so keep this in mind when making your choices.  Some can be taught, others will refuse and starve to death if not given live food.  Go easy on any food that isn't live until you know for sure your puffers will actually eat it.  Uneaten food is the easiest way to quickly pollute their water.  Scheduling water changes within 2 - 6 hrs of feeding time will help to avoid polluting the water.  (yes, this means at least a partial change each day)
Lastly about feeding is that these puffers, due to their feeding habits, should be fed multiple times each day to be sure they are getting enough food.  They are a constant forager with a high metabolism.  If you just put a bunch of snails into their tank for food and don't pay attention to their feeding habits, you will start to notice an excess of empty snail shells in the substrate but puffers that quickly lose weight or always appear to be underweight with hollowed out bellies.  Be aware of this and keep watch over them, take whatever steps are needed to make sure they get plenty of food into the fish and not just a few bites before it dies in the tank and the fish move on in search of something else.  They will NOT work to get/find food, they are opportunistic feeders. 

6) If I put 2 adult Golden Apple Snails (4cm diameter) in with them, will they ignore the adults and just eat the babies?
Not likely.  They will very likely take bites out of the feet of the adult snails until the snail is no longer able to move around on it's foot and dies.  See #5 above in regards to their feeding habits.

I hope this info helps.  If you have more questions please feel free to ask.  I will check back in here in the group within the next few days.

Dawn

Group: AquaticLife Message: 55973 From: ellie_anne_elliott Date: 5/21/2014
Subject: Re: Pygmy Puffer Fish
Hi Dawn,

Thanks so much for your reply.

We bought 3 puffers, but unfortunately 1 was quite skinny compared to the others, and starved before it felt comfortable enough to eat :(

The other 2 are doing well a the moment. I believe they are both the same gender, as they both have very similar body structures, the only difference is 1 has very black markings, and the others are paler with a bright blue spot in the same place the other has a dark one!

So far they have acclimatized well, using the plants to hide when scared but spending increasing amounts of time exploring the tank. The paler coloured one has decided 1 plant is HIS territory, and if the other puffer goes near it he chases it away, but other than the odd non-commital chase, I have only see 1 or too pecks hit home, and they dont appear to have done any damage to each other so far, For this reason, I am sticking to having the 2, as I dont want to cause any further problems by introducing a 3rd one again!

My filter is quite strong (I prefer over-filtering a tank to help keep water quality good), however they dont seem to have any problem manouvering around, and they have lots of ornaments to shelter in if they need to rest. They are able to mobilise and stop in all areas bar in the filter stream directly at the top of the tank, so they can avoid this area if they want, although I have seen them appear to deliberately swim into it and let it carry them along before swimming into the nearest plant to scavenge some more. They are little clowns, and fascinating to watch!

Since your reply, I have started turning the aquarium light on in the evenings for the plants, and they dont seem to be bothered at all, so thats nice for being able to see them properly!
Up till now I have fed them blood worm, daphnia, artemia and mysis (all frozen, defrosted first and then tipped into the tank) The plants I bought from the aquarium store had some baby snails in, which they have eaten pretty quickly, so I have ordered 100 Ramshorn snails online (thanks for your recommendation!). They should be arriving tomorrow hopefully! I have also bought a couple of Tracked Nerite Snails to help clean up any left over food, who I did some research on and it says they dont breed in freshwater as they have a marine nymph stage, so I dont need to worry about them over populating the tank, and I will keep my eye out in case they get pecked by the puffers and die so they dont pollute the tank. I will also invest in some live blackworm at some point, though I need to find somewhere to store them so I can feed them in small quantities only. Do they need a filtered tank to survive, or can they just live in a plastic tub?

Thanks for you help so far!

Ellie

 

Group: AquaticLife Message: 55974 From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c Date: 5/22/2014
Subject: Re: Pygmy Puffer Fish
Hi Ellie,
Sorry to hear you lost 1 puffer.  That was something I tried to express in my last message.  It doesn't take long for them to starve, need to keep watch over their little bellies to make sure they remain plump and rounded.  For as tough as they may seem, they are very sensitive.

In regards to your filter.  If they deliberately swim up through the filter stream and it pushes them around then the flow is too strong for them.  An easy solution to this while still being able to over filter the tank is to downgrade the size of the filter (or switch to a different brand of filter... if you tell me which brand you are using I should be able to suggest one with an easier flow rate/current) and add a 2nd filter, also downgraded size.  One filter on each back corner of the tank should give you ample filtration while keeping the flow weak enough to not stress the fish.  Puffers will continue to try to swim through those areas because they are foragers, nothing is off limits to them.  Being blown around in the water flow can be damaging to their delicate little bodies.  They are tough in personality but not so much in physical ability.

Black worms need to be stored in the refrigerator in a tightly sealed container with just enough water to cover them completely.  They last up to 2 wks this way, sometimes a bit longer, if the water in their container is rinsed/cleaned daily.  I think the longest I've ever been able to store them this way was about 3 wks with daily rinsing to remove any dead worms.  Any dead worms in the container will quickly pollute their water and kill more worms.  I have heard claims of people raising them in aquariums, however I have never seen visible proof of such.  I tend to not believe this because I know for fact that not only do they need to remain very cold but they also feed on raw sewage.  For this reason I will advise that you make sure you wash well with soap & water after handling them and don't touch your face until after you are washed up.  When black worms get too warm (typical tropical aquarium conditions) they die and dissolve/melt within a couple of hours.  I have been working with black worms for over 20 yrs and have tested many methods of keeping them.  When storing them at any temp over 40F they tend to mostly die within 12 - 18 hrs.  Dead black worms are nasty looking and smell absolutely awful.  (enough to make your eyes water)  When I have kept puffers I bought live black worms about once every 2 - 3 wks in a small enough quantity that I knew my puffers would eat them all before they died.  Ram's horn snails and live black worms were always my puffer's main diet with brine and mysis shrimp as a supplement between. 

I would also like to note here that adult frozen brine shrimp contains almost no nutritional value for the fish, so if fed frequently (more than just an occasional treat) they should be soaked in a vitamin supplement such as Zoe (by Kent Marine) for 5 - 10 minutes, strained through a net, and then offered to the fish (without rinsing).  I work with frozen brine as a staple food for my saltwater mandarin right now, so an easy tip for using the Zoe is to put the frozen brine into a plastic cup, add 5 - 8 drops of Zoe, and let it thaw completely in the Zoe, then simply pour into a brine net and feed to the fish.  It sounds complicated but it becomes routine and easy to do once you've done it a few times.  Discard the remaining Zoe from the cup or when pouring the thawed shrimp into the net, do so over the sink.  Then simply dip the net into the tank to wash the brine into the water and rinse the net under the faucet before storing for the night. 

I agree with your choice of not adding another puffer.  To do so at this stage would be putting an "intruder" into the tank and it would be subject to attacks by the original puffers. 

They do have incredible personalities and are a lot of fun to watch and play with.  I spent a lot of time daily interacting with mine.  They are extremely curious, need to check everything to see if it's food.  They can be quite comical.  :-)  If you really sit and watch them closely, you will notice that they are extremely observant.  Even while sitting still in one place, their eyes are always moving and on the lookout, and whenever something catches their interest they will suddenly dart towards it to check it out, then stop and look around again before repeating.  Each puffer has it's own individual personality, which also makes them great fun.  No 2 are identical in their markings, and again, close observation will allow you to pick out the subtle differences.

Enjoy your new babies and feel free to ask any questions you may have along the way.  I love these little guys, just don't have an appropriate place to keep them anymore. 

Dawn
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55975 From: jett07002 Date: 5/22/2014
Subject: Re: Pygmy Puffer Fish

Dawn, great post!!


Very educational and very convincing to me that I do not want to even attempt Puffers.  LOL


joe t

Group: AquaticLife Message: 55976 From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c Date: 5/23/2014
Subject: Re: Pygmy Puffer Fish
joe t, lol.  They are great little fish but they're not for everyone.  There's nothing wrong with that.  After yrs of working in the store and dealing with people who went elsewhere to purchase their fish, only to get them home and discover they just were not well matched (people & fish), I delved deeper into behavioral studies so that I could better help people to choose fish that were right for them.  I have a list of questions I ask when someone comes to me and says "I think I want a fish tank" and while some find it annoying that I ask so many questions, it's in their own best interest to answer them.  I have a very high success rate working this way and I'm glad I can help bring that to the group as well.  There is no worse feeling that getting an animal home and then feeling obligated to care for something you just turn out not to like, or to find out that it's a lot more work than you were prepared for.  When people get bored or frustrated with their fish they tend to not take as good of care of them than if they adore them, so it's in the best interests of the animals, too.

Dawn
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55977 From: ellie_anne_elliott Date: 5/26/2014
Subject: Re: Pygmy Puffer Fish
Hi Dawn, so 1 of my puffers is thriving! He has a chubby little belly, and I've seen him eat bits of both frozen and live food happily. I have been defrosting and then pipetting the frozen food into the elodea, so he can forage through and pick the bits he wants to eat. He has also got the hang of hunting and eating Ramshorn snails. The other puffer is not thriving. He still has enough energy to swim around the tank, but he doesn't show any real luster for any of the foods I've offered him. He presumably must be eating the odd bit, as he hasn't starved to death, like the small thin one did, I don't want him to waste away though! I've offered him frozen bloodworm (2 different sizes), mysis shrimp, daphnia, brine shrimp and mussel (chopped into little pieces and offered by hand, tweezers and dropped in the tank right in front of him!), live daphnia, and of course the ramshorn snails. His little piggy friend will quite happily tuck into all of these, he just doesn't seem interested, at least not when I'm watching. I don't have easy access to the blackworms you describe, and I am dubious as to whether he would tuck into them as he shows no interest in the bloodworms. What do you suggest I do? Ellie xxx
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55978 From: Andy Mills Date: 5/26/2014
Subject: Re: Pygmy Puffer Fish
Are blackworms what we call tubifex worms here in the UK? Seem to
remember reading this somewhere but not sure.



On 26/05/2014 18:23, evocated_undine@... [AquaticLife] wrote:
> Hi Dawn, so 1 of my puffers is thriving! He has a chubby little belly, and I've seen him eat bits of both frozen and live food happily. I have been defrosting and then pipetting the frozen food into the elodea, so he can forage through and pick the bits he wants to eat. He has also got the hang of hunting and eating Ramshorn snails. The other puffer is not thriving. He still has enough energy to swim around the tank, but he doesn't show any real luster for any of the foods I've offered him. He presumably must be eating the odd bit, as he hasn't starved to death, like the small thin one did, I don't want him to waste away though! I've offered him frozen bloodworm (2 different sizes), mysis shrimp, daphnia, brine shrimp and mussel (chopped into little pieces and offered by hand, tweezers and dropped in the tank right in front of him!), live daphnia, and of course the ramshorn snails. His little piggy friend will quite happily tuck into all of these, he just doesn't seem interested,
at least not when I'm watching. I don't have easy access to the blackworms you describe, and I am dubious as to whether he would tuck into them as he shows no interest in the bloodworms. What do you suggest I do? Ellie xxx
>
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55979 From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c Date: 5/27/2014
Subject: Re: Pygmy Puffer Fish
Black worms and tubifex worms are 2 entirely different species of worms.
Ellie,
There are many puffers who will only eat live food, which is one of the many challenges in keeping them.  Do you have access to any live adult brine?  Live mosquito larvae?

I don't know where you are located, but it is late spring here in WI and the weather is plenty warm enough to raise mosquito larvae outside.  If your outdoor temp is staying above freezing at night, try setting a bucket of tap water (no water conditioner or other chemicals added) outside where it will get some sunlight for at least part of the day, if you can place it near plants or grass that's even better.  It will draw mosquitoes naturally.  Once out there let it just sit without being disturbed for about 48 hrs, then run a brine shrimp net through it and you should be able to catch your own mosquito larvae that way.  Once you have some in the net (make sure you get a bunch of them so the active puffer can feed while still leaving enough for the other) simply rinse the net into the tank with the puffers, take a step or 2 back from the tank and just stand real still and watch. 

The other thing is to make sure you back away from the tank and watch from a bit of a distance.  The fish can see you if you are within about 2 ft of the tank... you want them to think nobody is watching.  Make sure the light is on for easy viewing, and then just sit and watch closely to see if the less active fish is taking any of the mosquito larvae you are offering.  Continue to try to get some live black worms if at all possible... it is the movement of the food that attracts them.  If you can get the fish to eat something... anything, that will buy you some time to work on teaching it to accept other food sources.  Not all will, but you can try. 

As I mentioned in one of my previous posts, my last couple of dwarf puffers required me to deshell the snails before they would eat them.  It was a lot of hassle, time consuming, but it was the only way to get them to eat enough to keep them healthy.  I used a tiny fingernail/toenail scissors with a sharp point and a tweezers, cut away the shell starting at the opening, and working my way around the shell from the outside edge.  Once I got close enough to the center of the shell the tweezers was then used to pull the snail from it.  I am going to suggest you try this because the snails will bleed when removed from their shell.  The blood in the tank attracted the fish quickly and helped lead them straight to the food source.  When you remove the snails from the shells make sure the blood is "red".  This makes all the difference.  Different species of snails have different types of blood & bodily fluids, and the puffers were ONLY attracted to the red blood.  You can also try squashing a few of the smaller snails to the glass (they will stick for a while) to release the blood and break the shells, which should also attract the fish to them.  Be patient, it may take them a few minutes to be willing to investigate after your hand is out of the water and you have backed away from the tank.

Also make sure that there is no intimidation or aggressive competition for food within the tank.  The lesser aggressive of the fish can starve simply by feeling intimidated in searching for food if the other fish is fast and a "food hog".  A LOT of food going into the tank in various areas will help resolve that issue, but will require much more frequent water changes to deal with the increased waste levels. 

I'm going to ask if you will please email me privately off group?  I have tanks full of snails here that I know are the right species for dwarf puffer food.  I would like to send you some just to make sure you are getting the right snail species, which could be contributing to your problem if the ones you are obtaining are different. (such as bladder snails instead of true ram's horn)  The only thing I ask is that you cover the shipping costs, which would be minimal if you are here in the states.  I can send a wide variety of sizes of the right species, since the larger ones are easier to remove the shells, and the larger ones are what you would need to lay eggs for more baby snails.  Dwarf puffers can be VERY fussy about their food sources, and this will vary for each individual fish.  You may need to obtain a long tweezers and hand feed the less aggressive fish to make sure it is eating enough.  Yes, I know that sounds like a lot of hassle, but these fish can be very high maintenance.  They are not the easiest species to keep. 

Dawn
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55980 From: ellie_anne_elliott Date: 5/27/2014
Subject: Re: Pygmy Puffer Fish
Hi Dawn,

Once again, thanks for all your help!

Sadly I live in the uk, which makes shipping live animals difficult, if not impossible without great cost involved! I will try the bucket and mosquito thing, however we dont have many mozzies around where I live, so I'm not sure what larvae we may end up with!

The snails I have in my tank have bright red bodies, so I presumed (possibly incorrectly!) that they have red blood? The chubby puffer certainly seems to be enjoying them anyway!

You may be onto something with the other puffer feeling threatened out of food, as the chubby puffer gets VERY defensive of his food as he's eating, and will chase him away, but I have been putting food in all 4 corners of the tank, so I hope he is managing to get something at least! He certainly has energy still, as he explores sometimes, I've just never actively seen him eat anything I've offered so far! I will buy some adult brine shrimp and see if he goes for them. The daphnia certainly interested both of them, however they seemed to be a bit lazy when chasing to eat them, starting to swim then seemingly  getting distracted by something else and swimming off in the opposite direction!

I don't mind the extra work required, I have been offering him stuff in tweezers, and he looks interested, but never takes a bite! I am used to having extra needy creatures, I have an African clawed frog who I hand feed every day, and she is currently laying batches of eggs which is meaning a good hour and a half of cleaning every evening!

Ellie xx
,
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55981 From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c Date: 5/28/2014
Subject: Re: Pygmy Puffer Fish
Hi Ellie,
I wasn't sure where you lived so I had to at least offer what I could for you... I have helped a number of people from the UK with fish issues and I understand the challenges.  There was a time when I had told hubby that the UK was one of the places I had considered living until I found out about the many issues they present with fish keeping.  I would be so lost without my easy access to the things I need for keeping my fish and continuing my research.  While we all run into challenges of some sort or other, the UK seems to present more than most other places.

Keep doing what you're doing and keep watching.  Your fish are still new and learning to trust you, that takes time.  As that happens they will begin to feel more comfortable going about their regular activities while you watch from a bit of a distance. 

Yes, their curious nature does tend to get the best of them, lol.  Their attention spans are extremely short and they are very easily distracted, which is why I suggested taking a step or 2 away from the tank to just sit and watch them for extended periods of time.  If they can see you then you become their focus rather than foraging for food, which defeats the purpose.  It can take months before they fully settle in and get used to you.

Can you post a photo of the tank they are living in?  I would like to see how it is decorated.  I may be able to offer some tips for you to help with the aggression/intimidation issues based on what I can see in the photo(s).  Pictures can tell a lot.  :-)

In regards to the daphnia, again you are seeing their limited attention span.  If they have to work too hard to find/get food they will let it go and search for something easier.  They have a very high metabolic rate, which affects their energy levels as well as their appetites.  Animals with high metabolisms tend to be "lazy foragers" by nature, conserving energy wherever/however possible while constantly eating.  Other animals well known for this trait would be things such as the 3 toed sloth and the koala bear.  The other thing I have observed over the years is that some foods don't particularly interest the dwarf puffers as an actual food source, so they follow it around a bit and watch it due to their high level of curiosity, but don't actually eat it.  Depending on what it is, sometimes they will nip at it to test it out, taste it, or just play with it, but they quickly grow bored with it as they must continue their constant search for food.  It is their high metabolism that makes them such a challenge to keep healthy because if they don't get enough constant food supply they very quickly starve to death.  A full 24 hrs without any food is enough to starve them to the point of death.  So keep offering with the tweezers, keep spreading the food around the tank, don't give up.  He/she will eventually learn to trust you and the tweezers enough to start feeding from it.  Once you find a favorite food for that other fish, offering that via tweezers will help teach that the tweezers means yummy food and he/she will learn to come running anytime that tweezers is present.  These fish are very much like small children with a severe case of ADD.  ;-) 

I'm truly glad you're getting to enjoy their unique personalities and the fun (as well as challenges) they present.  Not enough people truly get to know their fish in such a way.  When I began my quest on behavior studies the things I learned about each species studied was fascinating and inspiring.  Most fish are very interactive and social with people if given the time and the chance... and they are also smart enough to learn things like coming when "called".  Most of the fish I have at present will follow me from one place to another as soon as they can see me and when I am working in the tank they seek me out to interact with them.  This can make maintenance a challenge in keeping them safe.  It's not easy to do a gravel vac or cleaning equipment, etc. when you have 5 or more fish pushing on your hands and trying to swim into your hands to be pet and played with, lol.  My angels will even come to greet my macaw when I take him to the tank and he talks to them and waves goodnight to them at night on our way to tucking him into his cage for bedtime.  My 2 yr old grandson has already begun to learn how to interact with many of my fish and is completely fascinated at how they will come up to nibble his fingers to say hi, or will greet him at any point along the tank glass if he slowly places a finger to the glass and moves it in small circles.  He is mildly autistic and this has been a great tool in teaching him to sit calmly to interact without scaring the fish.  His last visit here was his first full week away from his parents.  When they dropped him off he was so hyper he couldn't sit still for a minute.  By the end of his week here, when they came to pick him up, he took mommy by the hand and into the fish room to show her what he learned and the exiting rewards he found in sitting still with the fish.  It was such a huge change that she had tears in her eyes to see his excitement and his new level of control all wrapped into a simple fish tank.  Fish are not the mindless, unfeeling creatures that a lot of people write them off to be... and anyone who learns and experiences it takes away something that is truly priceless.  :-)

I look forward to seeing a photo of your tank and your puffers.  Have a great day!

Dawn
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55982 From: ellie_anne_elliott Date: 5/28/2014
Subject: Re: Pygmy Puffer Fish
How fantastic about your grandson! Being a veterinary nurse myself, I often see the amazing effect having a pet can have on some children. All animals truly are a gift, and I hate the way some people just take on animals without even trying to find out what their requirements are and when they don't thrive, just give up and dump them, or worse just let them perish! So today, the little guy ate in front of me 3 mouthfuls of blood worm, which is more than I've ever seen him eat, so I'm happy about that. I know it's not enough, but it's a start! I painstakingly caught a whole load of mosquito larvae using a turkey baster, and they both totally ignored them, typical! I've uploaded pictures of my tank (excuse the cat on top, she likes to sleep there because the tank light unit gets warm!), and both puffers. Behaviour wise I'm confused as the "dominant" puffer (aka the fat one, or Walter White as I've named him) swims around with his tail closed to a point, which I read is a sign of fear or unsureness, whereas the "submissive" puffer (the skinny one aka Jessie Pinkman) swims around with his tail open, even when being chased?? Also, Jessie has darker colourings than Walter, which in other species I know can indicate dominance, so very confusing! I will buy some live brine shrimp at the weekend. I know they may be less nutritional, but right now I just want him to have a full belly! Ellie xx
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55983 From: ellie_anne_elliott Date: 5/28/2014
Subject: Re: Pygmy Puffer Fish
OK, won't let me upload photos from my phone so here is a link to my photobucket account containing pictures of my tank and puffers http://s239.photobucket.com/user/untamed_spirit/library/Pufferfish%20Tank Ellie xx
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55984 From: jett07002 Date: 5/29/2014
Subject: Re: Pygmy Puffer Fish

Hello to you both, Dawn and Ellie:


        I am reading your posts about these puffers and I can not help to scratch my head and think, 1) Boy have they got patience!  and 2)  How long can they keep this up?


        If I am reading your posts correctly, you are dealing with a creature(s) that need constant -- and I mean CONSTANT--care.    How can you possibly keep this up for any length of time?   There has to be a point that sooner or later you will not be able to do what is required and it is all over.  The fish are dead.


        Please understand, my intention is not to be critical but trying to be rational. 


        Dawn, I have read all your posts on this subject and I truly do not know how you can possibly be dong this for any length of time.   Unless you are in an environment where you may have a staff and this "vigil" goes on 24/7.


         In my opinion these poor creatures belong in their own natural environment.  To be owned by anyone who has other things to do is their demise.


joe t

Group: AquaticLife Message: 55985 From: ellie_anne_elliott Date: 5/29/2014
Subject: Re: Pygmy Puffer Fish
Hi Joe, I have had aquatic pets all my life, and will care for them 24/7 to ensure they get the quality of life they deserve. Although I agree that wild caught fish are wrong, these little puffers were tank bred, and if it weren't for me purchasing them, they may have ended up in a home where someone did not take the time to understand them and they would of suffered and died. I do not mind spending the time caring for these little guys, as they give so much character back! Also they bring my husband and our visitors joy to watch. I work with animals daily, so it doesn't even seem like an extra special effort looking after my clan. I currently have a puppy, 2 cats, 11 chickens, 2 gerbils, an African clawed frog, corys and puffers, and all my animals are happy and healthy (in fact my corys regularly breed and my frog is in the middle of laying her fifth clutch of eggs, a sign she is feeling completely happy and safe ) I agree if people do not have the time or desire to look after their pets, they shouldn't have them, however dont be under the assumption that ant of our pets are in any way neglected or unhappy! Ellie
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55986 From: Ellie Date: 5/29/2014
Subject: (no subject)
I can no longer access the group, I don't know why? I still need help with my puffer :(
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55987 From: deenerzz Date: 5/29/2014
Subject: Re: (unknown)
Ellie,
 
Please describe.
 
Do you mean the Yahoo page? Or receiving email?
 
I think you may have just joined again under another email address.
 
 
Mike ( a moderator)


-----Original Message-----
From: Ellie evocated_undine@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
To: aquaticlife <aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thu, May 29, 2014 2:21 pm
Subject: [AquaticLife] (unknown)

 

I can no longer access the group, I don't know why? I still need help with my puffer :(
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55988 From: Ellie Date: 5/29/2014
Subject: Re: (unknown)
Every time I go to the group it says Join Group, so I try, but it still says Join Group and I can't see any of the conversations and I'm not receiving the emails anymore either? I had no problem accessing it earlier!


From: Deenerz@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>;
To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>;
Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] (unknown)
Sent: Thu, May 29, 2014 9:24:52 PM

 

Ellie,
 
Please describe.
 
Do you mean the Yahoo page? Or receiving email?
 
I think you may have just joined again under another email address.
 
 
Mike ( a moderator)


-----Original Message-----
From: Ellie evocated_undine@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
To: aquaticlife <aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thu, May 29, 2014 2:21 pm
Subject: [AquaticLife] (unknown)

 

I can no longer access the group, I don't know why? I still need help with my puffer :(
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55989 From: ellie_elliott@... Date: 5/30/2014
Subject: Re: (unknown)
Haha, so it was a yahoo glitch as usual! Back on, woohoo!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55990 From: Angela Cancilla Herschel Date: 5/30/2014
Subject: OT: Video; how to help snapping turtle cross road
Video ; how to safely help a snapping turtle cross the road.

Ciao, Angela Cancilla Herschel in SoCal
Being kind is more important ...than being important.
Any good animal trainer knows the science of positive reinforcement ...includes people too.
And always try for ; most positive least intrusive methods.
Wildlife warrior volunteer at;
California Wildlife Center

Sent from my iPhone

Group: AquaticLife Message: 55991 From: ellie_elliott@... Date: 5/30/2014
Subject: Success!!
Jessie finally ate! I rigged up a small plastic lunchbox with suckered clips attaching it to the midlevel of the tank (he spends a lot of time investigating the top of the tank) and put some live bloodworms in there. With a little hand guidance of how to get at the bloodworm (he kept trying to get them through the side of the plastic! ) he has now stuffed his little Puffer guts on them! He has a little round belly like Walter now, I'm so happy! Thanks for all your help Dawn, I will use this lunchbox as his feeding platform and slowly train him to eat other things too for nutritional healthiness, I'm aware bloodworms are not sufficient as a soul diet! I'm just so happy he's eaten something! Ellie
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55992 From: sevenspringss Date: 5/30/2014
Subject: Re: Success!!
AOL Email
Ellie,
 
Glad to hear that Jessie finally has an appetite.  A word of caution though.  While I realize that you want Jessie to make up for lost time when this fish was not eating, don't feed him too many live bloodworms at once.  While live bloodworms are one of the most nutritious foods you can offer a fish, they have been known on rare occasion to eat their way out through the side of a fish, causing inflammation (and subsequent infection) to that area of the abdomen.  While this is rare, and while I'm not meaning to alarm you, the chances of this happening are greatly reduced when the stomach isn't so burdened by a large compliment of them, allowing the digestive juices the opportunity to start digesting this food in much shorter time.  As you indicate you can afford the time to look after maintaining your animals, you would do best to spread out his feedings with smaller portions throughout the day until he catches up with his sibling(s). 
 
One thing you should try, if you can locate them (as I'm fairly confident you can), is to include a small quantity of frozen bloodworms with the live feeding in efforts to see if he'll eat them too, at this same time.  If he does, which would seem likely, increase the amount of frozen bloodworms (along with the smaller portion of live bloodworms) while decreasing the frequency of the feedings.  In the States, we have available to us the Hikari brand of Frozen bloodworms -- which are far superior to any other brand on the market; they're cultivated indoors in their facilities rather than being collected in the wild..  While San Francisco Bay brand also offers them, regretfully, I feel I must dissuade you from buying this brand.  Try locating Hikari frozen bloodworms if you can. 
 
Ray
         
 
In a message dated 5/30/2014 6:18:32 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
 

Jessie finally ate! I rigged up a small plastic lunchbox with suckered clips attaching it to the midlevel of the tank (he spends a lot of time investigating the top of the tank) and put some live bloodworms in there. With a little hand guidance of how to get at the bloodworm (he kept trying to get them through the side of the plastic! ) he has now stuffed his little Puffer guts on them! He has a little round belly like Walter now, I'm so happy! Thanks for all your help Dawn, I will use this lunchbox as his feeding platform and slowly train him to eat other things too for nutritional healthiness, I'm aware bloodworms are not sufficient as a soul diet! I'm just so happy he's eaten something! Ellie

Group: AquaticLife Message: 55993 From: ellie_elliott@... Date: 5/31/2014
Subject: Re: Success!!
Hi Ray, thankyou for your words of wisdom. What an horrific image of bloodworms eating their way out! I sincerely hope this doesn't happen! I had been offering in the past frozen bloodworm, which he had shown limited interest in, but I'm hoping now he has his feeding lunchbox he will take a wider selection of foods! The frozen bloodworm I have is part of the JMC Aquatics Quintet frozen cubes along with daphnia, artemia and mysis which have added vitamins. I'm hoping these are Ok? Ellie
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55994 From: sevenspringss Date: 5/31/2014
Subject: Re: Success!!
AOL Email
Hi Ellie,
 
Live bloodworm's rare exiting issue has been documented with pics, so it can happen even if (fortunately) not as the regular occurrence of events.  My thoughts are that the more of them concentrated in a fish's stomach, the greater the chance that they're not all going to begin being digested very early and that just one may have the opportunity to gnaw it's way out.  Yes, I understand that you had limited success offering frozen bloodworms in the past, but as this was before you gave him live bloodworms, he quite possibly was unfamiliar with them and wasn't sure of them as food. 
 
Now that you're feeding him live bloodworms, much to his liking, he may well take a liking to the frozen version also since he knows what to expect of them.  Whenever feeding any fish a food that is unfamiliar to them -- even foods that are clearly labeled (for us) to read "FISH FOOD," -- the best way to introduce the fish to this new food is always to include it with its older food so that a connection will be made by the fish between the two foods.  The fish may not have had the chance to read the label < g >. 
 
What may obviously be a fish food to us may not necessarily be seen as a food to a fish, so mixing it with the food they've always been eating up until now will present the chance for the fish to try the new food while he's eating his regular food -- which they usually take advantage of at that time.  I know that this one Puffer you have wasn't eating anything previously while you first had him, but now that he's eating live bloodworms, this will be the perfect chance to try him on the frozen ones.  An example though, of just how fish may perceive a new food; if a new size pellet food is offered to a fish that has been being fed pellets only of a smaller size, without mixing in some of the more familiar smaller pellets. most often the fish may not recognize the larger pellets as food.  Over time, the fish may (or may not) get to slowly learn that this new size is food, but that's not always a sure thing either. Only when the old familiar size food is fed at the same time as the new food, will the fish get to try it and find out now that it's food -- especially if he's a bit hungry to prompt him to try the new size.  A day or two of feeding his regular food more sparingly before feeding the new food will usually give him that impetus.
 
I'm not familiar with JMC Aquatics, but if it's pure frozen bloodworms (as opposed to containing pieces of leaves and tiny twigs, etc., as does the other brand I mention in my last post), this should be perfectly fine.  As you continued that brand name with "Quintet," I'm assuming that the same product also contains daphnia, Artemia and Mysis shrimp, hopefully as separate food cubes.  Of course, if all four frozen foods are contained in one cube, you have no choice other than to feed your fish all of them at once.  Nothing wrong with this as they're all good foods, offering a nice variety, but now you need to familiarize the fish with these inanimate foods so that he'll learn that they are indeed foods.  Occasionally, fish will try something different just to see if it's palatable, but again, you'd be better off feeding some live bloodworms at this same time.  More often though, a fish will try freshly thawed foods just because they look palatable, whereas dry foods don't necessarily present themselves as such.  As I'm sure you're aware, frozen foods should first be thawed out in something like a very fine mesh baby brine shrimp net, and fed to the fish only at this stage (thawed); the frozen cube shouldn't be dropped into the tank. This way too, if the cube turns out to contain more than one feeding, you can place the remainder in the refrigerator for the next time, maybe putting it in a plaster sandwich bag.  After thawing in the net, it should be given a quick rinse to remove any liquids, like excess blood from the frozen bloodworms.
 
Ray
   
 
In a message dated 5/31/2014 5:30:38 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
 

Hi Ray, thankyou for your words of wisdom. What an horrific image of bloodworms eating their way out! I sincerely hope this doesn't happen! I had been offering in the past frozen bloodworm, which he had shown limited interest in, but I'm hoping now he has his feeding lunchbox he will take a wider selection of foods! The frozen bloodworm I have is part of the JMC Aquatics Quintet frozen cubes along with daphnia, artemia and mysis which have added vitamins. I'm hoping these are Ok? Ellie

Group: AquaticLife Message: 55995 From: ellie_elliott@ymail.com Date: 5/31/2014
Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Success!!
Hi Ray, 

Yes,  the frozen blocks are all seperate creatures in each, which is useful for me to establish which foods are and arent accepted! Also,  no twigs or leaves, just creatures in vitamin supplemented ice blocks. For tonight's feed I will put 2 or 3 live blood worms and a small syringe full of frozen ones to ease him gently into non-live food, then perhaps tomorrow I will try mixing with another sort of frozen food. I always defrost the cubes in dechlorinated water then suck up small amounts in a pipette and distribute the food into different areas in the tank. In this way Walter gets to scavenge as he enjoys and Jessie gets to eat in his lunchbox in peace! 

Ellie

Sent from my HTC

----- Reply message -----
From: "sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [AquaticLife] Success!!
Date: Sat, May 31, 2014 12:41

 

Hi Ellie,
 
Live bloodworm's rare exiting issue has been documented with pics, so it can happen even if (fortunately) not as the regular occurrence of events.  My thoughts are that the more of them concentrated in a fish's stomach, the greater the chance that they're not all going to begin being digested very early and that just one may have the opportunity to gnaw it's way out.  Yes, I understand that you had limited success offering frozen bloodworms in the past, but as this was before you gave him live bloodworms, he quite possibly was unfamiliar with them and wasn't sure of them as food. 
 
Now that you're feeding him live bloodworms, much to his liking, he may well take a liking to the frozen version also since he knows what to expect of them.  Whenever feeding any fish a food that is unfamiliar to them -- even foods that are clearly labeled (for us) to read "FISH FOOD," -- the best way to introduce the fish to this new food is always to include it with its older food so that a connection will be made by the fish between the two foods.  The fish may not have had the chance to read the label < g >. 
 
What may obviously be a fish food to us may not necessarily be seen as a food to a fish, so mixing it with the food they've always been eating up until now will present the chance for the fish to try the new food while he's eating his regular food -- which they usually take advantage of at that time.  I know that this one Puffer you have wasn't eating anything previously while you first had him, but now that he's eating live bloodworms, this will be the perfect chance to try him on the frozen ones.  An example though, of just how fish may perceive a new food; if a new size pellet food is offered to a fish that has been being fed pellets only of a smaller size, without mixing in some of the more familiar smaller pellets. most often the fish may not recognize the larger pellets as food.  Over time, the fish may (or may not) get to slowly learn that this new size is food, but that's not always a sure thing either. Only when the old familiar size food is fed at the same time as the new food, will the fish get to try it and find out now that it's food -- especially if he's a bit hungry to prompt him to try the new size.  A day or two of feeding his regular food more sparingly before feeding the new food will usually give him that impetus.
 
I'm not familiar with JMC Aquatics, but if it's pure frozen bloodworms (as opposed to containing pieces of leaves and tiny twigs, etc., as does the other brand I mention in my last post), this should be perfectly fine.  As you continued that brand name with "Quintet," I'm assuming that the same product also contains daphnia, Artemia and Mysis shrimp, hopefully as separate food cubes.  Of course, if all four frozen foods are contained in one cube, you have no choice other than to feed your fish all of them at once.  Nothing wrong with this as they're all good foods, offering a nice variety, but now you need to familiarize the fish with these inanimate foods so that he'll learn that they are indeed foods.  Occasionally, fish will try something different just to see if it's palatable, but again, you'd be better off feeding some live bloodworms at this same time.  More often though, a fish will try freshly thawed foods just because they look palatable, whereas dry foods don't necessarily present themselves as such.  As I'm sure you're aware, frozen foods should first be thawed out in something like a very fine mesh baby brine shrimp net, and fed to the fish only at this stage (thawed); the frozen cube shouldn't be dropped into the tank. This way too, if the cube turns out to contain more than one feeding, you can place the remainder in the refrigerator for the next time, maybe putting it in a plaster sandwich bag.  After thawing in the net, it should be given a quick rinse to remove any liquids, like excess blood from the frozen bloodworms.
 
Ray
   
 
In a message dated 5/31/2014 5:30:38 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
 

Hi Ray, thankyou for your words of wisdom. What an horrific image of bloodworms eating their way out! I sincerely hope this doesn't happen! I had been offering in the past frozen bloodworm, which he had shown limited interest in, but I'm hoping now he has his feeding lunchbox he will take a wider selection of foods! The frozen bloodworm I have is part of the JMC Aquatics Quintet frozen cubes along with daphnia, artemia and mysis which have added vitamins. I'm hoping these are Ok? Ellie

Group: AquaticLife Message: 55996 From: ptimlin Date: 5/31/2014
Subject: Re: OT: Video; how to help snapping turtle cross road
Nice video. In the past I have usually just stood in the road encouraging large snappers to hurry up and waving at approaching cars to hold on a minute. But now I know where I can safely grab them.

The only downside to picking up a snapping turtle, at least in my area, is they are very likely to have walked through a nice roadside bed of poison ivy to get there (that evil stuff is EVERYWHERE in Massachusetts), so picking them up risks also picking up some poison ivy. Uggh! Keep a small bottle of commercially available poison ivy wash or blocker in your car.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55997 From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c Date: 5/31/2014
Subject: Re: Success!!
That's great news!  :-)  Just for clarification, were they live bloodworms or live black worms?  There is a big difference between the 2.
Since he now has a place to comfortably feed you may want to try putting some snails up there on his "platform" too.  Once he really recognizes this as a feeding area he will start to investigate everything you put there for him and test it out as food.  This could help him to recognize the snails as a food source.  Mysis shrimp are something else you can offer to him as well as juvenile ghost shrimp. 

My puffer tanks usually had a large moss mat growing in them so I often raised ghost shrimp in the same tank as the puffers.  The adult shrimp were too large to be eaten, but when they started breeding the puffers would feast on the newly hatched baby shrimp and it kept a steady supply of natural food in the tank for them along with the snails.  Not all of my puffers would eat them, but enough that I seldom found young shrimp that were allowed to grow to adulthood.  As long as male and female shrimp are present and the water is kept clean, ghost shrimp are very easy to breed/raise and are very nutritious for the puffers if they will eat them.  Of course, the other option would be to raise the shrimp in a separate tank and net out the newly hatched fry as you find them and then offer them up in a controlled feeding situation if you choose. 

After seeing the photos of your tank and puffers I would still suggest adding a lot more decor to their tank, in particular plants (live or fake no matter... silk work just as well as live ones do for territory).  The more decor/plants you can get in there the easier it will be for the 2 puffers to continue to get along on a long term basis.  Keep in mind that once the other fish begins to recognize this platform as a feeding area, he/she is likely to invade that at feeding time as well.  They are super smart.

Congrats to you and your fish!  I look forward to reading your updates as you post them.

Dawn
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55998 From: ellie_elliott@... Date: 5/31/2014
Subject: Re: Success!!
Hi Dawn, They're 100% bloodworms, are blackworms better for them? Also, today I put a few live brine shrimp in there and they have both been eating them, which is fab! I have since added some surface floating plants to make them both feel more protected from above, and will invest in some bogwood attached to suckers to further divide the tank and add more layers. Ellie
Group: AquaticLife Message: 55999 From: Angela Cancilla Herschel Date: 5/31/2014
Subject: Okay to but fighting fish out for a half hour in mid morning of sunl
Is is okay to put my daughter's fighting fish out for a half hour in mid morning of sunlight and D3?  With me working in the garden in Malibu, CA (mild Mediterranean weather)?
It seems we have learned so many species benefit from natural sunlight especially the UVB rays needed for D3 to synthesize calcium .
_______________________________________________
Ciao, Angela Cancilla Herschel in SoCal

Being kind is more important ..than being important. ~
Any good animal trainer knows the science of positive
 reinforcement includes .... people too.
 And always try for most positive least intrusive methods. ~
California Wildlife Center,volunteer wildlife warrior
www.cawildlife.org
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56000 From: sevenspringss Date: 5/31/2014
Subject: Re: Success!!
AOL Email
Ellie,
 
I don't believe that blackworms are any better for fish than bloodworms, but this is can yet be another variety in the fish's diet.  Too much of any one food is not the best thing for any fish and different foods should be fed whenever (and as often) possible.  Bloodworms do have certain advantages in nutrition over blackworms though, with one of them being that they (bloodworms) contain beta carotene, which is a natural color enhancer.  Live adult brine shrimp is a great alternative, even if they're not immensely nutritious.  For better nutritive benefit, they may be gut fed before feeding them to your fish, by giving them a feeding of bakers; yeast -- and a small addition of hard-boiled egg yolk, being careful that the egg yolk doesn't foul their water.  Try locating live Daphnia too; they can be fed bakers' yeast (Fleischmann's) and/or green water/suspended algae.    
 
Too, Mysis shrimp is also an excellent source of carotene.  Bloodworms, Daphnia and Mysis (and yes, also brine shrimp) also contain chitin in their exoskeletons, which is used to aid in the structure of the fish's scales.  This protein is similar to the keratin in our fingernails.  Too much of it though can act as a laxative, but with feeding these foods judiciously, they are excellent sources of other important proteins.  Of those invertebrates having an exoskeleton, either keratin, chitin or a combination of both proteins are used to construct their exoskeletons, with the chitin exoskeleton of bloodworms being exceptionally thin (as are those of Daphnia and Mysis) and easily digestible if not fed too much at once. 
 
Still, while I realize that neither Jessie or Walter will eat (nor are being fed) dry foods, for others here, such foods should be fed sparingly right after feeding bloodworms, even on the following day, as it's been reported that in some fish species that the combination may cause intestinal blockage.  While I can't confirm that (and therefore, don't necessarily support it), there seems to be sufficient evidence to support this and it might be best/safest to feed a different frozen food (Mysis, Daphnia, Cyclops, etc.) after feeding bloodworms and before feeding a dry food; even too much of these other frozen foods are said to possibly cause a blockage on occasion.  Bloodworms should never be fed to East African Haplochromines and very sparingly to East African substrate spawners, as they have more difficulty in digesting them.  Blackworms are an excellent food variety for Puffers though, if they'll eat them.  The key is not too much of any one food, but everything in moderation.
 
Ray
       
 
In a message dated 5/31/2014 4:58:41 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
 

Hi Dawn, They're 100% bloodworms, are blackworms better for them? Also, today I put a few live brine shrimp in there and they have both been eating them, which is fab! I have since added some surface floating plants to make them both feel more protected from above, and will invest in some bogwood attached to suckers to further divide the tank and add more layers. Ellie

Group: AquaticLife Message: 56004 From: sevenspringss Date: 6/1/2014
Subject: Re: 2ft DIY Background
AOL Email
Looks great.  Nice work !   I'm guessing that "2ft" is referring to the height?
 
Ray
 
 
In a message dated 6/1/2014 7:59:35 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
 

My newest tank DIY background setup


Home to Endler livebearer males and Ember tetras


http://i1231.photobucket.com/albums/ee514/BecLeeFotos/Fish%20Tanks/DIY%20Backgrounds/2ft29thMay20141a.jpg

Group: AquaticLife Message: 56005 From: sevenspringss Date: 6/1/2014
Subject: Re: Nano Shellie tank
AOL Email
Another nice job.  What size is this tank?
 
Ray
 
 
In a message dated 6/1/2014 8:02:05 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
 
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56006 From: sevenspringss Date: 6/1/2014
Subject: Re: 2ft DIY Background
AOL Email
I wonder what happened to the reply I sent on this message -- before I posted to the nano Shellie tank?
 
Ray
 
 
In a message dated 6/1/2014 7:59:35 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
 

My newest tank DIY background setup


Home to Endler livebearer males and Ember tetras


http://i1231.photobucket.com/albums/ee514/BecLeeFotos/Fish%20Tanks/DIY%20Backgrounds/2ft29thMay20141a.jpg

Group: AquaticLife Message: 56007 From: Kevin Boyle Date: 6/1/2014
Subject: Re: Nano Shellie tank
On 6/1/2014 8:02 AM, alasse_au@... [AquaticLife] wrote:
 

Group: AquaticLife Message: 56008 From: ellie_elliott@... Date: 6/1/2014
Subject: Re: Success!!
Thankyou for your very informative response! An update on my 2 boys: After a few false starts, the feeding lunchbox is a success, and both fish have been feeding in it either one after the other or even simultaneously a couple of times! I have reduced the amount of live bloodworm I giver per feeding, and have been adding live brine shrimp (which both joyously hunt and eat!) and I have also successfully snuck some tiny chopped up bits of mussel which have been eaten alongside the bloodworm. All in all, I am very pleased how they both have nicely rounded tummies now, and their behaviour towards each other, although not exactly friendly, has become less aggressive of late, as now Jessie is a similar structure to Walter, he is standing up for himself better! I must say their colouration has improved remarkably since eating the bloodworm, and thanks to your information above, I now understand why! Thankyou all for your help, it had made the new ownership of these guys easier and therefore more pleasant for all of us! Ellie
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56009 From: sevenspringss Date: 6/1/2014
Subject: Re: Success!!
AOL Email
Hi Ellie,
 
That's very nice to hear; thanks for filling us in on how the two are doing -- and how they're both doing together.  I'm always pleased when the members have success, that's what makes it all worthwhile moderating the group.
 
Cordially,
 
Ray
 
 
In a message dated 6/1/2014 1:44:01 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
 

Thankyou for your very informative response! An update on my 2 boys: After a few false starts, the feeding lunchbox is a success, and both fish have been feeding in it either one after the other or even simultaneously a couple of times! I have reduced the amount of live bloodworm I giver per feeding, and have been adding live brine shrimp (which both joyously hunt and eat!) and I have also successfully snuck some tiny chopped up bits of mussel which have been eaten alongside the bloodworm. All in all, I am very pleased how they both have nicely rounded tummies now, and their behaviour towards each other, although not exactly friendly, has become less aggressive of late, as now Jessie is a similar structure to Walter, he is standing up for himself better! I must say their colouration has improved remarkably since eating the bloodworm, and thanks to your information above, I now understand why! Thankyou all for your help, it had made the new ownership of these guys easier and therefore more pleasant for all of us! Ellie

Group: AquaticLife Message: 56010 From: ellie_elliott@... Date: 6/1/2014
Subject: Re: Success!!
http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff311/untamed_spirit/utf-8BSU1BRzI1MTRfMi5qcGc.jpg Above is the new tank layout with the lunchbox
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56011 From: ellie_elliott@... Date: 6/1/2014
Subject: Re: Success!!
http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff311/untamed_spirit/utf-8BSU1BRzI1MTRfMi5qcGc.jpg Above is the new tank layout with the lunchbox and the floating plants. http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff311/untamed_spirit/utf-8BSU1BRzI1MTNfMS5qcGc.jpg And here's the 2 boys together
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56012 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 6/1/2014
Subject: Re: Success!!
Hi Ellie,

  I've been following your thread with great interest & I'm very happy to see that your boys are now ok-well done! Also great to see the pictures, I don't have much contact with any type of fish except Carps so it's nice to learn about other species.

  John<o)))<

 


On 1 June 2014 21:08, ellie_elliott@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Group: AquaticLife Message: 56013 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 6/1/2014
Subject: Re: Okay to but fighting fish out for a half hour in mid morning of
Hi Angela,

  As no one has yet replied to your query I'll bump it so hopefully someone who knows about Bettas can help you in case they missed it.

  John<o)))<


On 31 May 2014 22:21, Angela Cancilla Herschel angelasfeathers@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

Is is okay to put my daughter's fighting fish out for a half hour in mid morning of sunlight and D3?  With me working in the garden in Malibu, CA (mild Mediterranean weather)?
It seems we have learned so many species benefit from natural sunlight especially the UVB rays needed for D3 to synthesize calcium .
_______________________________________________
Ciao, Angela Cancilla Herschel in SoCal

Being kind is more important ..than being important. ~
Any good animal trainer knows the science of positive
 reinforcement includes .... people too.
 And always try for most positive least intrusive methods. ~
California Wildlife Center,volunteer wildlife warrior
www.cawildlife.org


Group: AquaticLife Message: 56016 From: Harry Perry Date: 6/1/2014
Subject: Angela Re: [AquaticLife] Okay to but fighting fish out for a half ho
The sun won't hurt your bettas. Where they come from they get sun all the time.

I would however put something over one end of the tank to create some shade if they want it.

Most animals can synthsize what they need.

Don't forget your vit. D. Sun exposure is important but don't over do it. Our bodies can manufacture 25,000 I.U. in about 30 minutes in the sun. It doesn't take long to get what you need.

Harry
--------------------------------------------
On Sun, 6/1/14, SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Okay to but fighting fish out for a half hour in mid morning of sunlight and D3?
To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, June 1, 2014, 7:46 PM














 

 



   


     
       
       
       Hi Angela,

ツ� As no
one has yet replied to your query I'll bump it so
hopefully someone who knows about Bettas can help you in
case they missed it.


ツ�
John<o)))<


On 31 May 2014 22:21,
Angela Cancilla Herschel angelasfeathers@...
[AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
wrote:














 

ツ�



   


     
       
       
       Is is okay to
put my daughter's fighting fish out for a half hour in
mid morning of sunlight and D3?テつ� With me working in
the garden in Malibu, CA (mild Mediterranean weather)?


It seems we have
learned so many species benefit from natural sunlight
especially the UVB rays needed for D3 to synthesize calcium
.


_______________________________________________
Ciao, Angela Cancilla Herschel in SoCal


Being kind is more important ..than being
important. ~


Any good animal trainer knows the science of positive
テつ�reinforcement includes .... people too.
テつ�And always try for most positive
least intrusive methods. ~


California Wildlife Center,volunteer
wildlife warrior
www.cawildlife.org





     
     

     
     






   










     
     

     
     






   
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56017 From: deenerzz Date: 6/1/2014
Subject: Re: Okay to but fighting fish out for a half hour in mid morning of
The consequences of forgetting are bad.

I would not place him in direct sunlight but ambient light near a window with no chance of direct sunlight hitting his tank.


Mike


-----Original Message-----
From: SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
To: AquaticLife <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sun, Jun 1, 2014 4:46 pm
Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Okay to but fighting fish out for a half hour in mid morning of sunlight and D3?

 
Hi Angela,

  As no one has yet replied to your query I'll bump it so hopefully someone who knows about Bettas can help you in case they missed it.

  John<o)))<


On 31 May 2014 22:21, Angela Cancilla Herschel angelasfeathers@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 
Is is okay to put my daughter's fighting fish out for a half hour in mid morning of sunlight and D3?  With me working in the garden in Malibu, CA (mild Mediterranean weather)?
It seems we have learned so many species benefit from natural sunlight especially the UVB rays needed for D3 to synthesize calcium .
_______________________________________________
Ciao, Angela Cancilla Herschel in SoCal

Being kind is more important ..than being important. ~
Any good animal trainer knows the science of positive
 reinforcement includes .... people too.
 And always try for most positive least intrusive methods. ~
California Wildlife Center,volunteer wildlife warrior
www.cawildlife.org

Group: AquaticLife Message: 56018 From: sevenspringss Date: 6/1/2014
Subject: Re: 2ft DIY Background
AOL Email
Okay, thanks.  It just looks longer than that, which is why I thought the 2 ft would have been in the other direction -- high.  I'm sure it's the small Endlers which makes it look larger.
 
Ray 
 
In a message dated 6/1/2014 7:55:23 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
 

2ft L x 15" W x 15" H

Group: AquaticLife Message: 56019 From: sevenspringss Date: 6/1/2014
Subject: Re: Nano Shellie tank
AOL Email
That's about the absolute minimum size tank you could hope to keep the fish in.  While Multi's is a small species, Tanganyika fish in general do best in as large a tank as you can supply them with.  Best of luck with them.  Keep in mind that they don't tolerate very much nitrate at all, so keep up with your PWC's accordingly.
 
Ray 
 
In a message dated 6/1/2014 7:57:06 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
 

The tank is about 1.5ft long

Group: AquaticLife Message: 56020 From: sevenspringss Date: 6/1/2014
Subject: Re: Okay to but fighting fish out for a half hour in mid mornin...
AOL Email
I'd be afraid of that small quantity of water heating up fast when being exposed to full sun.  As this fish's container is obviously portable for you to consider moving it, could you tell us what size it is?
 
Ray
 
 
In a message dated 5/31/2014 5:22:00 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
 

Is is okay to put my daughter's fighting fish out for a half hour in mid morning of sunlight and D3?  With me working in the garden in Malibu, CA (mild Mediterranean weather)?
It seems we have learned so many species benefit from natural sunlight especially the UVB rays needed for D3 to synthesize calcium .
_______________________________________________
Ciao, Angela Cancilla Herschel in SoCal

Being kind is more important ..than being important. ~
Any good animal trainer knows the science of positive
 reinforcement includes .... people too.
 And always try for most positive least intrusive methods. ~
California Wildlife Center,volunteer wildlife warrior
www.cawildlife.org

Group: AquaticLife Message: 56021 From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c Date: 6/1/2014
Subject: Re: Okay to but fighting fish out for a half hour in mid morning of
There is no harm in putting him outside if you take precautions for his safety.  First and most important is to be sure he's protected from potential predators.  Birds, reptiles, amphibians, and even some larger species of insects would joyously find him a tasty treat, as would many rodents and scavengers such as raccoons, opossum, etc.  Raccoons and opossum are quite handy at opening and closing things to attain access.  Other things to be sure of is that he has ample amounts of shade in his tank/environment so he can get out of the sun if he feels the need, plenty of ventilation at the surface of the water for breathing, and a close watch over his water temp.  I lived in southern CA for a few yrs a long time ago, I remember how the temp got to 100+ by 10am in the morning at this time of year.  While bettas do need warmer temps than many other tropical fish, there is still such a thing as too warm.  Anything above 86 would be pushing the limits on temp.  With direct sun beating down on a small amount of water for any length of time, the water temp will rise quickly.  Rapid change in temp is dangerous to any fish. 
The same applies to putting him in/near a window. 

Dawn
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56023 From: sevenspringss Date: 6/2/2014
Subject: Re: Nano Shellie tank
AOL Email
Yes, there are many reports out there, written by unknowing hobbyist, of keeping groups of Shellies in tanks as small as 5 gallons -- and even as small as 3 gallons -- but of course most of us realize that this is not only foolish but very poor procedure.  This is akin to Betta keepers (and I can't refer to them as Betta hobbyists) who insist on keeping a male Betta in a "Betta Bowl" containing only a quart or less of water.  The fish may be able to live in it, but it's not proper fish maintenance.  
 
While Multies are about the smallest Cichlid known, with the males not even reaching 2", they can at times be very territorial.  I don't know much experience you've had with Multies or with any Tanganyika Cichlids as a whole, but while 6 of them may be housed in a 1.5 ft tank, it's generally recommended to not house more than 4 of them -- as a harem of one male and three females -- in this size tank.  Too, while two males may sometimes be kept in this same size tank, often one male may consider the entire 1.5 ft tank his territory.  I don't know how many gallons a 1.5 ft tank is Down Under, but here in the States, a 1.5 ft (18 inch) tank is not even a 10 gallon tank; a normal 10 gallon tank here measures 20" Long X 10" Wide X 12" High.  A 1.5 ft tank of the same height (12") would need to be 16" wide to be of any appreciable size greater than a 10 gallon tank, which would make it just shy of 15 gallon (14.78 gallons).  Anything narrower would not be all that much larger than a 10 gallon and could result in the same problem with trying to house multiple males.
 
Many long-time Tanganyika Cichlid hobbyists do 25% PWC twice a week, including myself, which prevents any potential problems these fish may encounter when even small nitrate build-ups are present.  Other fish aren't as susceptible to the presence of nitrate and only need weekly partial water changes, but fish from this Lake are an exception.  
 
Ray
   
 
In a message dated 6/2/2014 3:46:15 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
 

They can be kept in a smaller tank (10gal or a bit under) no problems, these guys have been in their tank for quite some time now, there are only 4 of them at present, but I am wanting to add a few more to the colony, so this is why they are going to a bit bigger tank.


They get weekly water changes, same as all the other tanks.

Group: AquaticLife Message: 56025 From: sevenspringss Date: 6/2/2014
Subject: Re: Nano Shellie tank
AOL Email
So glad you're doing well with your Multies; nice to see they're breeding for you.  I'm still at a loss as to how many gallons this 1.5 ft tank holds, since it's shorter than what's considered a standard 10 gallon tank here in the States.   Obviously, it must be much wider than the standard 10" wide 10 gallon tank if it's to hold more.  I have to doubt that it's taller as there would be no gain in bottom area if that's where the extra volume is.
 
Doing twice-weekly PWC's is not a requirement for Tanganyika Cichlids, but they appear to thrive from the additional fresh water.  Actually, a hobbyist can't change too much water, even if it's not needed.  While fish do extremely great on a regular weekly regimen of partial water changes, most appear to thrive even better when this additional maintenance is given them -- especially Cichlids from this Lake, as they never evolved to have to tolerate any nitrate impurities.  I realize that I don't need to do that extra PWC mid-week for my Tanganyika Cichlids, but I see their increased demeanor every time I provide this, along with an appetite that just won't quit < g >.  If you feel you don't need (or want) extra pointers, that's fine too.
 
Best regards,
 
Ray
 
 
 
In a message dated 6/2/2014 1:44:33 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
 

I've been keeping them for quite a while now :) They are breeding and active and doing awesome in the tanks they have been kept in

Once per week water change is easy keeping the water stats in the safe zone and is working great for myself and my fish. I have no need to do extra water changes just because someone states it is a requirement lol It is only required if your water stats are not staying in the safe zone :)

Group: AquaticLife Message: 56026 From: Angela Cancilla Herschel Date: 6/2/2014
Subject: *Okay to put fighting fish out for a half hour in mid morning?
Hi John, Mike, Harry, Dawn, Ray,

Yes forgetting him is what scares me too!

I am getting him a 5 g tank and making it have privacy for him to go to with some water plants  ...want to try and make it a  more natural like setting ... "a la"  rice paddies .
But I was thinking about keeping a small  2 quart bowl just for  the garden right next to me  with a timer on my iPhone while I'm on my cell  checking my gazillion emails from my biologist friends all over the world  ( trust me) .

Being involved with  the science of the study of behavior  and conservation of many species especially avian, and reptiles that cannot synthesize D3 in nature without sunlight on their own.  I fully know the importance of the important UVB rays  and have seen again and again metabolic bone disease.

UVB rays ( the part of the spectrum that D3 is made from) cannot penetrate glass or plastic.  In cold winter climate's with zoos that have great aviaries and herp enclosures ..they use roofs with plexi UVB friendly plastic  that are extremely costly ( like $ 50 dollars a square foot ) ..in order for this specific "B" ray to be allowed to penetrate .

I remember my dermatologist ( my cousin! ) told me to guage by our skin color and that  we might need only a half hour but a dark person would need at least one hour


_______________________________________________
Ciao, Angela Cancilla Herschel in SoCal

Being kind is more important ..than being important. ~
Any good animal trainer knows the science of positive
 reinforcement includes .... people too.
 And always try for most positive least intrusive methods. ~
California Wildlife Center,volunteer wildlife warrior
www.cawildlife.org
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56027 From: sevenspringss Date: 6/2/2014
Subject: Re: *Okay to put fighting fish out for a half hour in mid morni...
AOL Email
Hi Angela,
 
A 5 gallon tank for him would be ideal.  Noticing you plan to put him outside in a 2 quart bowl, next to you, your original message doesn't say how often you plan this.  As you seem to be an avid gardener, I'm guessing you plan to move him nearly every day.  I was just wondering how you plan to transfer him every day, from his 5 gallon tank to this bowl(?).  It would not be in his best interest to be netting him every day, although I doubt you'd be able to just guide him into this bowl more than a few times before he learned how to dodge this.  I think he'd get more and more obstinate to your netting him after about a week or so too, and will become harder to catch after a short time.  
 
While I don't mean to cut into his quality of life by suggesting you give him a permanent 2 1/2 gallon tank, this would still be adequate and at the same time you could move him and his tank out to the garden without disrupting him.  Of course, we're talking about 18 or so pounds here when considering that the tank won't be filled to the brim.  If you could maintain guiding him every day into a clear plastic potato salad container, this would be much better than netting him.  You then easily pour him into this 2 qt. bowl you mentioned.  He could still have his 5 gallon tank and enjoy the sunlight outdoors at the same time.
 
If you follow through with this plan, I'd suggest that you place an aquarium thermometer into this bowl and check it regularly the first day, to see how fast the temperature rises.  Turn the thermometer away from the sun's rays.  With the fish being right next to you, it's doubtful that many predators would chance sneaking up on you, and you shouldn't need to watch for racoons or possums as they're primarily nocturnal.  If you see one of these animals during mid-morning, chances are they're rabid, so get back in the house right away -- with the fish.  If you momentarily forget about him, a curious bird could land next to him and "investigate" the situation; this, you would need to be on your guard for.  
 
As Dawn also sees no harm in putting this fish outside, with al precautions followed, I too don't see much danger in this (again, with precautions), although I don't really see the necessity.  I've truthfully never heard of any aquarist putting their animals outside for this purpose of assuring them adequate vitamin D3, and I know many hobbyists who grow their fishes up to nearly the size they attain in nature, when providing them with large enough tanks.  Yes, goldfish and Koi are provided a pond -- most often outdoors -- although I know of one nearby water gardener who built his pond enclosed with his dining room so he can enjoy watching them while he has dinner. 
 
If these large indoor fishes had skeletal problems caused by a vitamin D3 deficiency, we couldn't prove it by these hobbyists' success with their "tank busters."  Actually, I have several 14" Central American Cichlids, which have never been outdoors (I raised them from eggs, [indoors]), yet none have any bone deformities from a lack of this vitamin.  I do realize that especially reptiles need an external (read; light) source of vitamin D3, as a UV-B fixture (I've had a turtle now going on 10 years), but perhaps fish get enough vitamins in their foods.  BTW, any dry foods -- such as "Betta Bits" -- should be stored in the freezer, with the container being used every day being stored in the fridge -- to help preserve their vitamins.
 
Ray
     
 
In a message dated 6/2/2014 2:36:25 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
 

Hi John, Mike, Harry, Dawn, Ray,

Yes forgetting him is what scares me too!

I am getting him a 5 g tank and making it have privacy for him to go to with some water plants  ...want to try and make it a  more natural like setting ... "a la"  rice paddies .
But I was thinking about keeping a small  2 quart bowl just for  the garden right next to me  with a timer on my iPhone while I'm on my cell  checking my gazillion emails from my biologist friends all over the world  ( trust me) .

Being involved with  the science of the study of behavior  and conservation of many species especially avian, and reptiles that cannot synthesize D3 in nature without sunlight on their own.  I fully know the importance of the important UVB rays  and have seen again and again metabolic bone disease.

UVB rays ( the part of the spectrum that D3 is made from) cannot penetrate glass or plastic.  In cold winter climate's with zoos that have great aviaries and herp enclosures ..they use roofs with plexi UVB friendly plastic  that are extremely costly ( like $ 50 dollars a square foot ) ..in order for this specific "B" ray to be allowed to penetrate .

I remember my dermatologist ( my cousin! ) told me to guage by our skin color and that  we might need only a half hour but a dark person would need at least one hour


_______________________________________________
Ciao, Angela Cancilla Herschel in SoCal

Being kind is more important ..than being important. ~
Any good animal trainer knows the science of positive
 reinforcement includes .... people too.
 And always try for most positive least intrusive methods. ~
California Wildlife Center,volunteer wildlife warrior
www.cawildlife.org

Group: AquaticLife Message: 56028 From: Noura T. Date: 6/2/2014
Subject: Still here

Hi everyone,

I hope that you’re all doing well.

Just passing by to let you know that me, my family, and my pets are still alive “and kicking”. Actually, we’ve increased by 2 budgies (a male who escaped to us, and a female that was bought to accompany him). As for me, I’m working from home now.

 

Except for one Pleco, I haven’t bought any new fish in over a year “with two major power outages and shorter daily outages”. During this year I only lost 2 fish (1 Yellow Lab, and 1 Clown Loach), and had to give one Angelfish away because the two Angelfish were constantly fighting. They were perfectly fine until one of them had a serious case of fin rot, and I had to isolate him for treatment and protection in a tiny bowl (6 liters) which was all I had at the time. With extensive care, medication, PWCs, and maintenance, the fish was cured within 4 weeks and gained back its fins’ full length, but the other fish had already dominated the 20 G and didn’t accept the return of its recovered companion. So.. the latter had to find a new home!

 

Local fish stores are only selling locally bred fish now, and expired fish food (I found a box with an expiry date of Nov 2012). And I think that even the boxes that I bought with a good Ex.date are forged. All low quality and very expensive Chinese stuff (triple the old prices).

 

I now have 4 fish in the 20 G, and yet I feel that it’s already overstocked since the fish got big: 1 male molly “born in the same tank”, 1 Clown Loach, 1 Angelfish “4 inches body length without the tail, and more than 6 inches long pectoral fins!”, and one 4” common pleco. We recently noticed and increase in the number of MT snails, I think that my Clown Loach got too big to stick its mouth and eat them up.

My small 20 liters tank still houses the 2 male guppies “were born there”, and a ton of thriving plants, mostly Anubias Nanas which flowered last Autumn. Not to mention the MTS s.

The 35 G was cracked at the bottom “my fault”,and I had to move the two Yellow Labs back to the old 17 G. I think they are two males, they’re not happy in the smaller space, they fight on an almost daily basis, but surprisingly never hurt each other. I’m pretty sure that if I took them to the fish store, it’s probable that someone with an even smaller tank will purchase them L, so they will stay here with me.

Why do they have their most severe fights immediately after each PWC is beyond me! Any idea why?

 

Noura (in Syria)

 

 

 

 

Group: AquaticLife Message: 56029 From: sevenspringss Date: 6/2/2014
Subject: Re: Still here
AOL Email
Hi Nora,
 
So good to hear from you!  I hope things have calmed down somewhat, in your area.  We don't hear quite as much lately about how the turmoil is going, but I'm sure it's still ongoing.  Glad to see that most of your fish are still doing well. 
 
Too bad about cracking the bottom of the 35 G.  You probably don't have the silicone sealant available to you in a tube, but if you did, you could get a piece of glass the same size as the bottom of this tank (if it wouldn't be too expensive) and place it in the tank over the existing bottom.  You'd first need to remove any sealant bead sticking up above the original bottom, but once that's done the new bottom could be sealed in place right over the old one.  Should be less expensive than buying a new tank.   
 
To extend the vitamin activity in the fish food for as long as you can, store the bulk of it in the freezer and the container you use every day in the refrigerator.  Vitamins will otherwise lose their effectiveness within two months of manufacture if stored in the open.  Too late for the expired Chinese fish food, but there may be hope in preserving some vitamins in the newest (forged exp. date?) fish food. 
 
PWC's invigorate fishes, as the water is now closer to what they require in lack of impurities, providing conditions more ideal to them.  For this same reason, PWC's will help induce spawning in many species.  Your two Yellow Lab males are being brought closer into an environment for spawning so they're even more territorial at this time.   
 
Please keep us informed when you can. 
 
Best wishes,
 
Ray
 
 
In a message dated 6/2/2014 4:43:37 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
 

Hi everyone,

I hope that you’re all doing well.

Just passing by to let you know that me, my family, and my pets are still alive “and kicking”. Actually, we’ve increased by 2 budgies (a male who escaped to us, and a female that was bought to accompany him). As for me, I’m working from home now.

Except for one Pleco, I haven’t bought any new fish in over a year “with two major power outages and shorter daily outages”. During this year I only lost 2 fish (1 Yellow Lab, and 1 Clown Loach), and had to give one Angelfish away because the two Angelfish were constantly fighting. They were perfectly fine until one of them had a serious case of fin rot, and I had to isolate him for treatment and protection in a tiny bowl (6 liters) which was all I had at the time. With extensive care, medication, PWCs, and maintenance, the fish was cured within 4 weeks and gained back its fins’ full length, but the other fish had already dominated the 20 G and didn’t accept the return of its recovered companion. So.. the latter had to find a new home!

Local fish stores are only selling locally bred fish now, and expired fish food (I found a box with an expiry date of Nov 2012). And I think that even the boxes that I bought with a good Ex.date are forged. All low quality and very expensive Chinese stuff (triple the old prices).

I now have 4 fish in the 20 G, and yet I feel that it’s already overstocked since the fish got big: 1 male molly “born in the same tank”, 1 Clown Loach, 1 Angelfish “4 inches body length without the tail, and more than 6 inches long pectoral fins!”, and one 4” common pleco. We recently noticed and increase in the number of MT snails, I think that my Clown Loach got too big to stick its mouth and eat them up.

My small 20 liters tank still houses the 2 male guppies “were born there”, and a ton of thriving plants, mostly Anubias Nanas which flowered last Autumn. Not to mention the MTS s.

The 35 G was cracked at the bottom “my fault”,and I had to move the two Yellow Labs back to the old 17 G. I think they are two males, they’re not happy in the smaller space, they fight on an almost daily basis, but surprisingly never hurt each other. I’m pretty sure that if I took them to the fish store, it’s probable that someone with an even smaller tank will purchase them L, so they will stay here with me.

Why do they have their most severe fights immediately after each PWC is beyond me! Any idea why?

Noura (in Syria)

Group: AquaticLife Message: 56030 From: noura_taweel Date: 6/2/2014
Subject: Re: Still here
Hi again Ray (and everyone),
I was thinking of making my own fish food, I'm not even confident that these Chinese fish foods are truly enriched with vitamins in the first place. Since a little over two years ago, it seems that almost everything in the markets here is of the absolute lowest qualities, and probably forged in everything, including human medications, but it's all brought to us in top prices because of the local currency's extreme debase. When people are dying in the streets and find no one to bury them (not in my city, though), it's difficult to concentrate on less important things, such as the quality of goods. The situation here isn't any better now than it was before, but we're fortunate to live in a city that didn't witness as much fighting "and falling rockets" as other areas in the country.
Anyway, why I didn't make my own fish food is that I'm afraid of roiling the water.

Back to tanks!
In fact, I do have a sealed silicone tube!
I have uploaded a photo of the tank's crack to my album, it should be visible once approved:
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/AquaticLife/photos/albums/1956468285

The crack is in the corner. I can get a piece of glass to fix the tank, but I didn't know that we can do that without having to tear the entire tank down!
The tank's glass is 8 mm thick, how thick should the new bottom be, is 6 mm enough?
Since the tank is very heavy, we will fix it ourselves, but I don't know how much silicone should we apply, or how. My dear hubby is quite a handy person when it comes to repairs, so he'll be more than happy to do this if someone explained it to him in details. I will also search YouTube for additional guidance, if any.

Noura

 

Group: AquaticLife Message: 56031 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 6/2/2014
Subject: Re: *Okay to put fighting fish out for a half hour in mid morning?
Hi Angela,

  Interesting to learn about the rays not being able to penetrate plastic-I have an acrylic tank & where it is situated at the back of my living room it gets some early morning sun in Winter months at the end & the fish will frequently come & bask in that.

  John<o)))<


On 2 June 2014 19:30, Angela Cancilla Herschel angelasfeathers@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

Hi John, Mike, Harry, Dawn, Ray,

Yes forgetting him is what scares me too!

I am getting him a 5 g tank and making it have privacy for him to go to with some water plants  ...want to try and make it a  more natural like setting ... "a la"  rice paddies .
But I was thinking about keeping a small  2 quart bowl just for  the garden right next to me  with a timer on my iPhone while I'm on my cell  checking my gazillion emails from my biologist friends all over the world  ( trust me) .

Being involved with  the science of the study of behavior  and conservation of many species especially avian, and reptiles that cannot synthesize D3 in nature without sunlight on their own.  I fully know the importance of the important UVB rays  and have seen again and again metabolic bone disease.

UVB rays ( the part of the spectrum that D3 is made from) cannot penetrate glass or plastic.  In cold winter climate's with zoos that have great aviaries and herp enclosures ..they use roofs with plexi UVB friendly plastic  that are extremely costly ( like $ 50 dollars a square foot ) ..in order for this specific "B" ray to be allowed to penetrate .

I remember my dermatologist ( my cousin! ) told me to guage by our skin color and that  we might need only a half hour but a dark person would need at least one hour


_______________________________________________
Ciao, Angela Cancilla Herschel in SoCal

Being kind is more important ..than being important. ~
Any good animal trainer knows the science of positive
 reinforcement includes .... people too.
 And always try for most positive least intrusive methods. ~
California Wildlife Center,volunteer wildlife warrior
www.cawildlife.org


Group: AquaticLife Message: 56032 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 6/2/2014
Subject: Re: Still here
Hi Noura,

  I'd also like to say how nice it is to hear from you again-I was just thinking the other day that I would soon post a message on here asking if you were still ok as we've not heard from you for so long but happily you've answered that for us!

I would guess the 6mm glass would be fine as repair material for your 35G because the structural integrity has not been compromised to any great degree by the crack & the new glass would sit directly on top of the old one reinforcing it.

  John<o)))<


On 2 June 2014 23:36, n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

Hi again Ray (and everyone),
I was thinking of making my own fish food, I'm not even confident that these Chinese fish foods are truly enriched with vitamins in the first place. Since a little over two years ago, it seems that almost everything in the markets here is of the absolute lowest qualities, and probably forged in everything, including human medications, but it's all brought to us in top prices because of the local currency's extreme debase. When people are dying in the streets and find no one to bury them (not in my city, though), it's difficult to concentrate on less important things, such as the quality of goods. The situation here isn't any better now than it was before, but we're fortunate to live in a city that didn't witness as much fighting "and falling rockets" as other areas in the country.
Anyway, why I didn't make my own fish food is that I'm afraid of roiling the water.

Back to tanks!
In fact, I do have a sealed silicone tube!
I have uploaded a photo of the tank's crack to my album, it should be visible once approved:
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/AquaticLife/photos/albums/1956468285

The crack is in the corner. I can get a piece of glass to fix the tank, but I didn't know that we can do that without having to tear the entire tank down!
The tank's glass is 8 mm thick, how thick should the new bottom be, is 6 mm enough?
Since the tank is very heavy, we will fix it ourselves, but I don't know how much silicone should we apply, or how. My dear hubby is quite a handy person when it comes to repairs, so he'll be more than happy to do this if someone explained it to him in details. I will also search YouTube for additional guidance, if any.

Noura

 


Group: AquaticLife Message: 56034 From: sevenspringss Date: 6/3/2014
Subject: Re: Nano Shellie tank
AOL Email
Okay, I understand your position and that's quite alright with me.  I'll just add that there's no substitute for partial water changing, and that's not "messing" with a tank.  There's such a thing as one being successful at keeping fish alive (and active & healthy), and doing the best for them -- or at least better for them.  This is similar (yet of course somewhat different) to a hobbyist maintaining goldfish in an undersize tank and stunting them instead of providing adequate size housing for them; with changing water only as "necessary" when a second PWC will ensure the fish's health, and while these goldfish are still active and "appear" healthy in an undersize tank, so much better can be done for them.  I understand too, that what "works" for someone may not necessarily work for someone else, but sometimes "works" can mean barely getting by but lacking improvement.  As I mentioned too, a tank the size of a 10 gallon (or less) may -- or well may not -- be large enough to accommodate two Multie males, depending on their individual dispositions.  If you feel you know more than others and don't need advice, so be it; I won't offer it again.  It wasn't meant to denigrate you nor point out any faults.  I wish you the best in all your aquatic ventures. 
 
Ray
 
 
In a message dated 6/3/2014 4:20:50 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
 

They are moving from a 5gal tank to a 9.2gal (1.5ft) tank


As stated, how I am keeping them is working for me :) The fish are all active and healthy, so I am going with it is working for them. :)


I don't think messing with a tank that does not require it to be in the fish's best interest. I let the fish live in their home and go about their fishy stuff in peace. (what others do is their choice)

Group: AquaticLife Message: 56036 From: sevenspringss Date: 6/3/2014
Subject: Re: Nano Shellie tank
AOL Email
Hi Alasse,
 
I'm sorry you took my advice that way.  I realize that you hadn't asked for it, but then, I notice that some of your methods could use improvement (and again, I'm not meaning to be at all rude here either).  My purpose, as one of the moderators here, in giving you (and others) advice is to help you to continually succeed in this hobby.  If it even appeared to you as I was being rude -- which I have no reason to -- then permit me to express my apologies as it wasn't meant.  I would never say (or even think) that you come off as knowing everything, as all of us know that no one ever can -- even the most experienced aquarists alive.  I've always been the first to admit (even here in the past) that I certainly don't know everything, but I hope my nearly lifelong experiences in this hobby account for something which I can pass on to others.  If I do see things that can be improved upon, I'll try to point them out to enrich your hobby experience as time progresses. 
 
Again, I do this in hopes that you'll succeed even more successfully, even if what you're doing now is working for you.  There's always room for improvement in anyone's methods, even mine, but I'm here to try to have you avoid any pitfalls as your hobby goes on, when lending you advice from my nearly 67+ years in the hobby as one of the earliest Rift Lake Cichlid importers, Fish Collector, Fish Wholesaler, Aquarium Store owner, Fish Hatchery owners and aquarium hobbyist.  I've been through a lot of it, with many Tanganyika Cichlids first being spawned by me (and I could list them) when first imported in the early 1970's, and with that knowledge fortunately gained then and through the years, I mean only to see your hobby prosper even further -- I'm not saying that you're doing anything wrong though, as your fish wouldn't be spawning for you if you were.  An expansion to a larger tank and with additional conspecifics, may bring about new problems however which you haven't encountered yet (and which I have).  I don't post anything unless I know it to be true from personal experience; my advice isn't just opinions.  You seem to have got me all wrong if you see my advice as being condescending as that serves no purpose.  
 
While I did ask you to please sign your posts in the beginning, as most members here do, this was only to create a more friendly atmosphere on this List as a whole.  I haven't even brought that up as of late and have remained quiet about that.
 
Cordially,
 
Ray
    
 
In a message dated 6/3/2014 8:00:46 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
 

Hmmmm, you may not mean to denigrate or point out supposed faults, but you certainly do, and have on each post I have made pretty much. I can sorta understand why this place is not so active. I will no longer be posting here sadly, each time I have I get the feeling of being somewhat lectured and badgered by you, and to be honest it comes across as not so friendly.


I certainly do not think I am know more than anyone else, I think I am doing what works and is best for myself and my fish.

Before you say that I think I know everything, you need to stop and have a bit of a look at yourself. You have some genuine good input, but come across as somewhat rude and condescending.


I was here to share my experience, photos, etc, but I can see that this place just isn't for me.

Thank you to those who have been pleasant and enjoy your piece of the net :)


Peace

Group: AquaticLife Message: 56037 From: alasse_au Date: 6/3/2014
Subject: Re: Nano Shellie tank

I don't believe I have you wrong :)


Again you don't believe I am wrong, but I need improvement? lol  Why?, because it doesn't run in line with your personal experience.

My personal experience, which I do not need to list and rattle off as you have, is no less valid than yours. All I will say is I am no newbie fish keeper, what works for me in my experience is what I will continue to do.


If you want people to post here and contribute their experiences, then say your piece and move on, not keep going on and on about it, because wether you think you do or not, you come across as pushy and rude.

Having to don a flame battle suit everytime you try to contribute to a community is not a fun thing, which is what these places should be about.


I have removed many of my posts, and would appreciate you as a moderator removing what I cannot. I really have no interest in being a part of this group anymore, and as soon as my content is removed in total I will be leaving. Sad considering I was at least keeping the group moving somewhat, or trying to at least.


You wonder why the group is getting so quiet. I'm sure there are other factors contributing, but sorry you are not helping in the way you come across to people.


Group: AquaticLife Message: 56038 From: Noura T. Date: 6/3/2014
Subject: Re: Still here

Hi John,

Thanks for thinking about us during my absence J

As you estimated, the crack didn’t affect the tank’s structure, but it was leaking.

I searched YouTube yesterday, but couldn’t find a video explaining how to apply the silicone in this particular situation, they were mainly replacing the entire panel.

I would appreciate it if you, or anyone else, could explain it to me. If I’m using a glass panel to cover the entire bottom, should I apply silicon just on the internal entourage, or should it be distributed in the center of the  bottom as well? If so, should it cover the entire bottom, or just a few spots of silicone here and there?

 

Many thanks,

Noura

 

Group: AquaticLife Message: 56039 From: sevenspringss Date: 6/3/2014
Subject: Re: Nano Shellie tank
AOL Email
Sorry to see you have what appears to be an attitude problem.  I don't choose to give you any advice on that; that one's up to you to straighten out .  Better luck elsewhere.  Finito!
 
 
 
In a message dated 6/3/2014 1:41:06 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
 

I don't believe I have you wrong :)


Again you don't believe I am wrong, but I need improvement? lol  Why?, because it doesn't run in line with your personal experience.

My personal experience, which I do not need to list and rattle off as you have, is no less valid than yours. All I will say is I am no newbie fish keeper, what works for me in my experience is what I will continue to do.


If you want people to post here and contribute their experiences, then say your piece and move on, not keep going on and on about it, because wether you think you do or not, you come across as pushy and rude.

Having to don a flame battle suit everytime you try to contribute to a community is not a fun thing, which is what these places should be about.


I have removed many of my posts, and would appreciate you as a moderator removing what I cannot. I really have no interest in being a part of this group anymore, and as soon as my content is removed in total I will be leaving. Sad considering I was at least keeping the group moving somewhat, or trying to at least.


You wonder why the group is getting so quiet. I'm sure there are other factors contributing, but sorry you are not helping in the way you come across to people.


Group: AquaticLife Message: 56040 From: harryleverett60 Date: 6/3/2014
Subject: Re: Nano Shellie tank
I would liken it to keeping a dog on a short chain. The dog Will survive and be semi active but will not be happy and content or progress in life well.
As to keeping the group moving , you started out bitching REPEATEDLY about having to sign your post. I wouldn't really call that keeping the group moving. You were given good ideas but chose not to listen which is fine but do it silently.
All in all I would say your just a person the likes unrest and bickering.
NOT sorry to see you go,

Harry L
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56041 From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c Date: 6/3/2014
Subject: Re: *Okay to put fighting fish out for a half hour in mid morning?
Hi Angela,
I have to agree with Ray's last post and my biggest concerns echo his at this time.  Water temp fluctuation and the stress of moving the fish daily would top my list, too.  Water temp can be monitored and the fish can be moved back indoors if that becomes an issue, but the constant moving in/out every day or even once/wk would be very stressful.  A stressed fish tends to be a sick fish.  In the aquatic world, something as "simple" as stress... kills. 

While I fully understand your concerns, your last post clarifying the reason behind those concerns (thank you for that info) I would also remind you that different species have different needs.  I am very familiar with both avian and reptile needs, as I have had both in my life almost constant since I was a child.  My burmese python was about 3 ft long when I met her.  When she died of pneumonia 9+ yrs later she was 18 ft and her vet used to just fawn all over her because of the obvious attention given to her care.  She didn't suffer with vitamin/mineral deficiencies.  I have also kept a wide variety of other snakes, from boas to various other pythons, down to garter snakes.  My very first animal love/passion was snakes and lizards.  I also ran an in-home rescue for iguanas and turtles for almost 15 yrs.  It was all about nursing them back to health and then finding them healthy forever homes.  In regards to avians, I was raised with 4 amazon parrots and a cockatiel.  I currently have a sun conure who has been with me for 7 yrs and my harlequin macaw who is now 16 yrs old, been with me for 14 yrs.  I was raised from a young age around my mother's friends who were bird breeders, owners, trainers, etc. and even had the opportunity to know Dr Lafeber Sr. when I was growing up.  (he was a wonderful man!) 

But, with that said, I have also been keeping fish for the past 30+ yrs and have worked in the aquatic industry for the past 20+.  Never in all that time have I found an issue with fish needing natural sunlight to be healthy or maintain a proper vitamin balance.  As Ray mentioned, a lot of prepared fish foods do contain vitamin supplements and there are also bulbs available for their light fixtures that put out the UV you are concerned about.  Anyone who maintains a healthy planted aquarium would be familiar with this to some degree or other since most aquatic plants require some level of UV for their growth/health. 

Most importantly I guess, I would like to point out the way each type of animal processes their vitamins.  With birds and reptiles they do require sunlight or at very least the replica of it via the proper light fixtures/bulbs, not just for bone health but also to digest and process their food properly and efficiently.  If you look at reptiles you also see there is the need for temp fluctuation in every 24 hr period, which fish also do not require (and which can be dangerous to fish).  Birds on the other hand are as temperature sensitive as fish are, with a much smaller range of acceptable temps as well as the dangers in fluctuation, especially rapid or drastic changes.  There are other animals that cannot tolerate any sunlight, and some that tolerate very little... it's all about what species you are dealing with.  We cannot lump all species together in regards to vitamin/mineral/sunlight needs because that is not in their best interests.  Each has their own specific needs. 

In all my years of fish keeping I have never exposed any of my fish to outdoor direct sunlight except for my koi and comets in the outdoor pond.  I keep freshwater and saltwater animals and have never had any issues with bone growth or lack of vitamins.  The reason this has never been a problem is because they are fed proper diets that meet their nutritional needs... which also varies from species to species just within the aquatic world. 

I'm going to make a suggestion for you before you attempt to move your betta outdoors with you during the day.  Take a container of water the same size/quantity as that which you plan to keep your betta in outdoors, and set it outside with you each day for a week and monitor the water temp.  Don't check just how warm it gets (which is vital) but also how quickly it changes in temp.  If the temp fluctuates more than 2 - 3 degrees in the first hour, that would be a good indication that moving your betta outside with you would cause more harm than good.  If you are able to control the water temp and prevent rapid or drastic fluctuation, then I would say that won't be harmful to him... but as we progress into warmer weather now that summer is here, this will need to be monitored daily because it will change with the weather.  Sun heats water quickly, especially when it is a small quantity.  I live in WI and on a hot summer day of about 85 degrees, my dog's water bucket must be changed every hour while she is outdoors because it heats up that quickly when sitting in the sun.  That is a 7 gallon bucket and starts out cold (about 40 degrees) from the hose, and within an hour can reach over 80 in temp.  On a cloudy but warm day it may only get up to 60 in that same hour... but that is an example of how quickly water temp can be affected by air temp and sunlight.  If 7 gallons heats that quickly, just imagine how fast 2.5 gallons will heat up?  That would be enough to quickly kill a betta. 

IF you decide to proceed, also watch the fish closely and pay attention to how often he actually comes out to sit in sunlit areas vs how much of his time is spent under decor or plants in the shaded area of his little bowl/tank.  I think that in itself will surprise you.  I think you will notice he prefers the shaded areas rather than direct sunlight, which pretty much defeats the purpose of putting him out there. 

The other thing I ask you to consider is eyesight and how direct sunlight will affect a fish's ability to see.  As those sun rays shine down through the water it has an enormous effect on a fish's vision.  A fish who is having difficulty in seeing is going to be a very stressed and unhappy fish.  The deeper in the water the fish goes the more "bent" the sun/light rays become, and the ability for those rays to penetrate certain depths also changes.  If you have ever gone fishing you may have noticed that at the peak sunlight hours, most fish will head for the deeper water and then will begin to surface for feeding at sunrise and sunset, when they are not being hit with direct light.  That is not by accident.  Please don't forget that too much of a good thing is no good. 

I can't tell you not to take your fish outdoors with you during the day, but I will encourage you to give this much more thought before doing so.  You may find that instead of helping him you only serve in causing him harm.  I would hate to see that happen.

Dawn   
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56042 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 6/3/2014
Subject: Re: Still here
Hi Noura,

  I do have some engineering knowledge but not in the aquatic field so there are probably factors that I don't know so if anyone can correct or elaborate on the following please do so but here goes:
In my opinion you want to get a perfect seal all the way around the perimeter of the new base so that there is a nice 'angle' of silicone all round just like the original base-a picture-frame shape if you will. That way you will not get any water leaking through into the gap between the old & new bases which could potentially cause toxic problems should it build up & leach back into your water. As for the silicone pattern inside the perimeter, I would either spot it at regular points as you would do a ceramic wall tile ::::: or else zig-zag the line of silicone along the length of the tank from one side to the other in a /\/\/\/ pattern & do the sealed edges last. That way when you gently push the new base down it will spread the silicone beading evenly & cushion itself.
Hope that all makes sense!

  John<o)))<


On 3 June 2014 18:39, 'Noura T.' n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

Hi John,

Thanks for thinking about us during my absence J

As you estimated, the crack didn’t affect the tank’s structure, but it was leaking.

I searched YouTube yesterday, but couldn’t find a video explaining how to apply the silicone in this particular situation, they were mainly replacing the entire panel.

I would appreciate it if you, or anyone else, could explain it to me. If I’m using a glass panel to cover the entire bottom, should I apply silicon just on the internal entourage, or should it be distributed in the center of the  bottom as well? If so, should it cover the entire bottom, or just a few spots of silicone here and there?

 

Many thanks,

Noura

 


Group: AquaticLife Message: 56043 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 6/3/2014
Subject: Re: *Okay to put fighting fish out for a half hour in mid morning?
Hi Dawn,

  Interesting point about the refraction of the Sun's rays-never thought of that but of course it is obvious now you mention it. I often walk along my local canal & the fish are just under the surface morning & evening but mid afternoon there is no one to be seen!

  John<o)))<


On 3 June 2014 21:31, dawnshungryeyes4u2c@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

Hi Angela,
I have to agree with Ray's last post and my biggest concerns echo his at this time.  Water temp fluctuation and the stress of moving the fish daily would top my list, too.  Water temp can be monitored and the fish can be moved back indoors if that becomes an issue, but the constant moving in/out every day or even once/wk would be very stressful.  A stressed fish tends to be a sick fish.  In the aquatic world, something as "simple" as stress... kills. 

While I fully understand your concerns, your last post clarifying the reason behind those concerns (thank you for that info) I would also remind you that different species have different needs.  I am very familiar with both avian and reptile needs, as I have had both in my life almost constant since I was a child.  My burmese python was about 3 ft long when I met her.  When she died of pneumonia 9+ yrs later she was 18 ft and her vet used to just fawn all over her because of the obvious attention given to her care.  She didn't suffer with vitamin/mineral deficiencies.  I have also kept a wide variety of other snakes, from boas to various other pythons, down to garter snakes.  My very first animal love/passion was snakes and lizards.  I also ran an in-home rescue for iguanas and turtles for almost 15 yrs.  It was all about nursing them back to health and then finding them healthy forever homes.  In regards to avians, I was raised with 4 amazon parrots and a cockatiel.  I currently have a sun conure who has been with me for 7 yrs and my harlequin macaw who is now 16 yrs old, been with me for 14 yrs.  I was raised from a young age around my mother's friends who were bird breeders, owners, trainers, etc. and even had the opportunity to know Dr Lafeber Sr. when I was growing up.  (he was a wonderful man!) 

But, with that said, I have also been keeping fish for the past 30+ yrs and have worked in the aquatic industry for the past 20+.  Never in all that time have I found an issue with fish needing natural sunlight to be healthy or maintain a proper vitamin balance.  As Ray mentioned, a lot of prepared fish foods do contain vitamin supplements and there are also bulbs available for their light fixtures that put out the UV you are concerned about.  Anyone who maintains a healthy planted aquarium would be familiar with this to some degree or other since most aquatic plants require some level of UV for their growth/health. 

Most importantly I guess, I would like to point out the way each type of animal processes their vitamins.  With birds and reptiles they do require sunlight or at very least the replica of it via the proper light fixtures/bulbs, not just for bone health but also to digest and process their food properly and efficiently.  If you look at reptiles you also see there is the need for temp fluctuation in every 24 hr period, which fish also do not require (and which can be dangerous to fish).  Birds on the other hand are as temperature sensitive as fish are, with a much smaller range of acceptable temps as well as the dangers in fluctuation, especially rapid or drastic changes.  There are other animals that cannot tolerate any sunlight, and some that tolerate very little... it's all about what species you are dealing with.  We cannot lump all species together in regards to vitamin/mineral/sunlight needs because that is not in their best interests.  Each has their own specific needs. 

In all my years of fish keeping I have never exposed any of my fish to outdoor direct sunlight except for my koi and comets in the outdoor pond.  I keep freshwater and saltwater animals and have never had any issues with bone growth or lack of vitamins.  The reason this has never been a problem is because they are fed proper diets that meet their nutritional needs... which also varies from species to species just within the aquatic world. 

I'm going to make a suggestion for you before you attempt to move your betta outdoors with you during the day.  Take a container of water the same size/quantity as that which you plan to keep your betta in outdoors, and set it outside with you each day for a week and monitor the water temp.  Don't check just how warm it gets (which is vital) but also how quickly it changes in temp.  If the temp fluctuates more than 2 - 3 degrees in the first hour, that would be a good indication that moving your betta outside with you would cause more harm than good.  If you are able to control the water temp and prevent rapid or drastic fluctuation, then I would say that won't be harmful to him... but as we progress into warmer weather now that summer is here, this will need to be monitored daily because it will change with the weather.  Sun heats water quickly, especially when it is a small quantity.  I live in WI and on a hot summer day of about 85 degrees, my dog's water bucket must be changed every hour while she is outdoors because it heats up that quickly when sitting in the sun.  That is a 7 gallon bucket and starts out cold (about 40 degrees) from the hose, and within an hour can reach over 80 in temp.  On a cloudy but warm day it may only get up to 60 in that same hour... but that is an example of how quickly water temp can be affected by air temp and sunlight.  If 7 gallons heats that quickly, just imagine how fast 2.5 gallons will heat up?  That would be enough to quickly kill a betta. 

IF you decide to proceed, also watch the fish closely and pay attention to how often he actually comes out to sit in sunlit areas vs how much of his time is spent under decor or plants in the shaded area of his little bowl/tank.  I think that in itself will surprise you.  I think you will notice he prefers the shaded areas rather than direct sunlight, which pretty much defeats the purpose of putting him out there. 

The other thing I ask you to consider is eyesight and how direct sunlight will affect a fish's ability to see.  As those sun rays shine down through the water it has an enormous effect on a fish's vision.  A fish who is having difficulty in seeing is going to be a very stressed and unhappy fish.  The deeper in the water the fish goes the more "bent" the sun/light rays become, and the ability for those rays to penetrate certain depths also changes.  If you have ever gone fishing you may have noticed that at the peak sunlight hours, most fish will head for the deeper water and then will begin to surface for feeding at sunrise and sunset, when they are not being hit with direct light.  That is not by accident.  Please don't forget that too much of a good thing is no good. 

I can't tell you not to take your fish outdoors with you during the day, but I will encourage you to give this much more thought before doing so.  You may find that instead of helping him you only serve in causing him harm.  I would hate to see that happen.

Dawn   


Group: AquaticLife Message: 56044 From: Angela Cancilla Herschel Date: 6/3/2014
Subject: Okay to put fighting fish out for a half hour in mid morning?
Thank you, John and Ray,
 Actually the prepared diet foods appear to have D3 in them as I knew they did .   I was just wondering what you here would think?  It is just I know from passed experience with so many species when ever possible ...there is nothing like sunlight :}
_______________________________________________
Ciao, Angela Cancilla Herschel in SoCal

Being kind is more important ..than being important. ~
Any good animal trainer knows the science of positive
 reinforcement includes .... people too.
 And always try for most positive least intrusive methods. ~
California Wildlife Center,volunteer wildlife warrior
www.cawildlife.org
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56045 From: sevenspringss Date: 6/3/2014
Subject: Re: Still here
AOL Email
Hi Noura,
 
Probably, the reason why you couldn't find anything on how to install a glass bottom over the existing one is because it's not normally done as a professional repair, but replacing the panel is.  This is not to say it can't be done, as many hobbyists who occasionally run into this job do install one panel over the other.  As you might imagine replacing the panel is much more difficult..
 
The first thing you need to do, as I mentioned previously, is to remove any trace of a raised bead from along the top of the perimeter of the old bottom.  Then, as a trail run, place the new glass bottom into the tank and let it settle carefully on top of the old bottom, without yet applying any silicone sealant.  In this way, you can see how much of a gap you have between the edges of the new bottom and the four sides (the two ends, the front and the back).  In this way, you'll also see if the new bottom is too wide or too long.  While you don't want the new bottom too snug, you also don't want too large of a gap between it and these four verticle panels.  It does need to be snug against the old bottom as this old bottom will be supporting it, and you need a small gap around the perimeter to be able to push the sealant down into the joints between the new bottom and the verticle panels.  The new bottom should be about 3 mm shorter and about 3 mm narrower than the old bottom.
 
With the silicone beading completely removed from around the top of the old bottom's perimeter where it meets the verticle sides, the new bottom should rest completely in contact with the old bottom when a dry run is made to try it out.  Before you do this trail installation though, you'll also need to remove about 3 cm of the verticle silicone bead from each of the four verticle corners, starting from where the verticle panels meet the old bottom; this ensures that there's no interferance when the new bottom is swiveled in place -- and I'll explain this last part later. 
 
Now, as John said, one way to apply the silicone is to first lay down a number of 5 cm diameter spots evenly spaced on top of the old bottom or apply a zig-zag pattern along the old bottom from one end to the other.  I've seen it done with the large 5 cm spots (solid circles) of sealant.  This is especially important only IF your new bottom doesn't lie completely flat on top of the old bottom, since the 6 mm glass won't support the weight of the water on its own if there's any gap what-so-ever between it and the old bottom -- it needs to lie directly on the old bottom.  If it does not, then a zig-zag pattern (or solid circles) of silicone must be applied across the top of the entire old bottom and the new bottom must be pushed down evenly on top of this, when installing this new glass.  Care must be taken not to use too much force, but the sealant should spread evenly as this will be supporting the new bottom.
 
IF, on the other hand, the new bottom DOES lie completely flat on the old bottom when trying it out, then no zig-zag or spot pattern silicone needs to be used between the old bottom and the new bottom.  This is the way I've done it, and which seems to work best -- provided the new glass rests completely even on top of the old bottom.  To remove the new bottom after making a trial (no silicone) installation, just turn the tank upside down -- slowly and carefully to let the glass fall out while supporting it with your hand.  
 
So, after the trail installation has been done satisfactorily, and you find that it fits just the way you want, it's time to install it now with silicone being used.  Now regardless of whether you first need the zig-zag pattern or not, these next steps are how you'd ensure the seal between the new and old bottoms' perimeters and all the verticle sides.  Using a pair of latex gloves, and keeping a chisel handy, put an extremely thin coating of silicone around (inside) all four verticle sides, starting at the old bottom, to a height of 8 mm.  Put a heavier coating of silicone along one long edge of the new bottom, and put a thinner coating of silicone along the opposite (long) edge of the new bottom.  Put an extremely thin coating of silicone along the two short edges (the ends) of the new bottom.  These rather thin coatings ensure a seal when making contact with the beading you'll install later.
 
Now, with the new bottom having coatings of silicone around their edges (but no silicone on top or underneath the new bottom at these points), gently lower the long edge (containing the heavier silicone coating) of this new bottom into the bottom edge of the front panel where it meets the old bottom.  The new bottom will be on an angle, front to back, with the front of this new bottom tilted down and the rear of this new bottom tilted up.  After making contact with the new bottom along the front (bottom) edge, allow this glass (new bottom) to swivel down into place at the back (bottom) edge.  Then, with the new bottom resting completely on the old bottom, take the chisel and insert it carefully where needed between the new bottom and the four verticle panels and center it, with approximately 1.5 mm of space all around the perimeter.  With that done, lay down a bead around the new bottom's perimeter and press it down into this minor gap creating a seal between all glass panels, after which a new beading of silicone will need to be installed in the four verticle corners where you cut 3 cm of it away for the glass to fall into place.  These new verticle beads need to extend upward (and over the existing corner beads) past where the removed portion was cut off and preferably somewhat outward of the existing corner beads to make contact with the glass.  You'll undoubtedly have a slight smear or two of silicone on the inside of at least one end panel, but that can be scraped off after it sets.  Let me know if you have any questions.  It's not as hard as it may sound, but I wanted to explain it thoroughly.
 
Ray
     
 
In a message dated 6/3/2014 2:21:28 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
 

Hi John,

Thanks for thinking about us during my absence J

As you estimated, the crack didn’t affect the tank’s structure, but it was leaking.

I searched YouTube yesterday, but couldn’t find a video explaining how to apply the silicone in this particular situation, they were mainly replacing the entire panel.

I would appreciate it if you, or anyone else, could explain it to me. If I’m using a glass panel to cover the entire bottom, should I apply silicon just on the internal entourage, or should it be distributed in the center of the  bottom as well? If so, should it cover the entire bottom, or just a few spots of silicone here and there?

Many thanks,

Noura

Group: AquaticLife Message: 56046 From: sevenspringss Date: 6/4/2014
Subject: Re: Nano Shellie tank
AOL Email
Harry,
 
Thank you very much for the kind support.  Some people will twist things to fit their own psyche no matter how hard you try to help them and/or do anything to help them.  I guess they just don't want to hear it and believe that they don't need anyone else's advice.  It's impossible to talk to anyone like this as they'll always assume your intentions are not in their best interest.  I see (by Yahoo's message to us), that she unsubscribed yesterday; probably for the best, although I don't often like to see anyone quit this group.  Some people, you just can't please no matter how hard you try.  Thanks again for telling it like it is (or was)!
 
Ray
 
 
In a message dated 6/3/2014 2:55:46 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
 

I would liken it to keeping a dog on a short chain. The dog Will survive and be semi active but will not be happy and content or progress in life well.

As to keeping the group moving , you started out bitching REPEATEDLY about having to sign your post. I wouldn't really call that keeping the group moving. You were given good ideas but chose not to listen which is fine but do it silently.
All in all I would say your just a person the likes unrest and bickering.
NOT sorry to see you go,

Harry L

Group: AquaticLife Message: 56047 From: Harry Leverett Date: 6/4/2014
Subject: Re: Nano Shellie tank
Ray
I have found every list has one or two of them. They always take the easy way out on most things and then want to argue why their ways is right , always falling back on "it works for me" so no use trying something different if more work is required. Usually their way is the lazy way.

Probably wants a tank full of fish to show off, as long as their not floating on top and moving around some what that's good enough.

Harry L.

Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID


"sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

Harry,
 
Thank you very much for the kind support.  Some people will twist things to fit their own psyche no matter how hard you try to help them and/or do anything to help them.  I guess they just don't want to hear it and believe that they don't need anyone else's advice.  It's impossible to talk to anyone like this as they'll always assume your intentions are not in their best interest.  I see (by Yahoo's message to us), that she unsubscribed yesterday; probably for the best, although I don't often like to see anyone quit this group.  Some people, you just can't please no matter how hard you try.  Thanks again for telling it like it is (or was)!
 
Ray
 
 
In a message dated 6/3/2014 2:55:46 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
 

I would liken it to keeping a dog on a short chain. The dog Will survive and be semi active but will not be happy and content or progress in life well.

As to keeping the group moving , you started out bitching REPEATEDLY about having to sign your post. I wouldn't really call that keeping the group moving. You were given good ideas but chose not to listen which is fine but do it silently.
All in all I would say your just a person the likes unrest and bickering.
NOT sorry to see you go,

Harry L

Group: AquaticLife Message: 56048 From: sevenspringss Date: 6/4/2014
Subject: Re: Nano Shellie tank
AOL Email
Harry,  you make some good points here.  Ordinarily, I would not extend a thread such as this, but as this group -- and every other fish group -- is slow right now, I don't think this would interfere with more important matters (not that we'll dwell on it too long, though).  Just wanted to add that unlike anyone else, either a beginner or very experienced hobbyist, a person like this just doesn't want to be told anything -- period.  They get insulted when you try to suggest something that may improve what they're doing.  Anyone else I know of would at least welcome a suggestion (any suggestion) as someone else's different methods to at least consider and weigh against what they're doing.  In this way, they can judge for themselves if the idea may be an improvement over their old methods.  Someone else's methods are always interesting, and there may even be merit in them which hasn't been considered before, or even heard about, but not to these kinds.  Well, no big loss but I hate to see anyone headed for possible failure in this hobby when it's apparent that they don't know everything they profess to know.  They can sure be unnecessarily insulting though.  Well, on to better topics.
 
Best regards,
 
Ray
 
 
In a message dated 6/4/2014 12:57:18 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
 

Ray
I have found every list has one or two of them. They always take the easy way out on most things and then want to argue why their ways is right , always falling back on "it works for me" so no use trying something different if more work is required. Usually their way is the lazy way.

Probably wants a tank full of fish to show off, as long as their not floating on top and moving around some what that's good enough.

Harry L.

Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID


"sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

Harry,
 
Thank you very much for the kind support.  Some people will twist things to fit their own psyche no matter how hard you try to help them and/or do anything to help them.  I guess they just don't want to hear it and believe that they don't need anyone else's advice.  It's impossible to talk to anyone like this as they'll always assume your intentions are not in their best interest.  I see (by Yahoo's message to us), that she unsubscribed yesterday; probably for the best, although I don't often like to see anyone quit this group.  Some people, you just can't please no matter how hard you try.  Thanks again for telling it like it is (or was)!
 
Ray
 
 
In a message dated 6/3/2014 2:55:46 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
 

I would liken it to keeping a dog on a short chain. The dog Will survive and be semi active but will not be happy and content or progress in life well.

As to keeping the group moving , you started out bitching REPEATEDLY about having to sign your post. I wouldn't really call that keeping the group moving. You were given good ideas but chose not to listen which is fine but do it silently.
All in all I would say your just a person the likes unrest and bickering.
NOT sorry to see you go,

Harry L

Group: AquaticLife Message: 56049 From: Angela Cancilla Herschel Date: 6/4/2014
Subject: *Okay to put fighting fish out for a half hour in mid morning/
Thank you Dawn and everyone.
I am not going to move him in and out as I don't want to stress him ...and the formulated food has D3 in it so I don't have to worry about the B part of the UV spectrum  as fish seem to be able to absorb it added to their food very well.
 I think it's great how you guys all like to have real water plants in your beautiful tanks. Plants ( including water plants)  don't need the UVB ..plants are fine with bright UVA lighting ..anything else said is just marketing .
When I got my Solarmeter 6.0 to test for UVB radiation I was shocked to find the only ones that emitted any actual readings of UVB ( B rays) was the Reptisun .  I have a beautiful garden aviary for my fully flighted (and  recall trained free flying) macaws ...but yet I fell for it and purchased the original OTT "full spectrum" floor lamps  ( actually I got four ) that I now only use for my art work...because the UVB reading on my meter and on other meters of my friends at the  Zoo ... also show zip ,ziltch, niente, nada , a reading of 1 or 2, and that is if you hold the meter no more than 1 "  away!
PS. I know Ted's (Dr Lafeber) wife Chris Davis!   
_______________________________________________
Ciao, Angela Cancilla Herschel in SoCal

Being kind is more important ..than being important. ~
Any good animal trainer knows the science of positive
 reinforcement includes .... people too.
 And always try for most positive least intrusive methods. ~
California Wildlife Center,volunteer wildlife warrior
www.cawildlife.org
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56050 From: deenerzz Date: 6/4/2014
Subject: Re: Nano Shellie tank
Ray,
 
As always you were a perfect gentleman throughout this situation.
Glad you are here and I always pay attention to your advice.
 
Thanks!
 
Mike


-----Original Message-----
From: sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
To: AquaticLife <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wed, Jun 4, 2014 11:03 am
Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Nano Shellie tank

 
Harry,  you make some good points here.  Ordinarily, I would not extend a thread such as this, but as this group -- and every other fish group -- is slow right now, I don't think this would interfere with more important matters (not that we'll dwell on it too long, though).  Just wanted to add that unlike anyone else, either a beginner or very experienced hobbyist, a person like this just doesn't want to be told anything -- period.  They get insulted when you try to suggest something that may improve what they're doing.  Anyone else I know of would at least welcome a suggestion (any suggestion) as someone else's different methods to at least consider and weigh against what they're doing.  In this way, they can judge for themselves if the idea may be an improvement over their old methods.  Someone else's methods are always interesting, and there may even be merit in them which hasn't been considered before, or even heard about, but not to these kinds.  Well, no big loss but I hate to see anyone headed for possible failure in this hobby when it's apparent that they don't know everything they profess to know.  They can sure be unnecessarily insulting though.  Well, on to better topics.
 
Best regards,
 
Ray
 
 
In a message dated 6/4/2014 12:57:18 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
 
Ray
I have found every list has one or two of them. They always take the easy way out on most things and then want to argue why their ways is right , always falling back on "it works for me" so no use trying something different if more work is required. Usually their way is the lazy way.

Probably wants a tank full of fish to show off, as long as their not floating on top and moving around some what that's good enough.

Harry L.

Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID


"sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 
Harry,
 
Thank you very much for the kind support.  Some people will twist things to fit their own psyche no matter how hard you try to help them and/or do anything to help them.  I guess they just don't want to hear it and believe that they don't need anyone else's advice.  It's impossible to talk to anyone like this as they'll always assume your intentions are not in their best interest.  I see (by Yahoo's message to us), that she unsubscribed yesterday; probably for the best, although I don't often like to see anyone quit this group.  Some people, you just can't please no matter how hard you try.  Thanks again for telling it like it is (or was)!
 
Ray
 
 
In a message dated 6/3/2014 2:55:46 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
 
I would liken it to keeping a dog on a short chain. The dog Will survive and be semi active but will not be happy and content or progress in life well.
As to keeping the group moving , you started out bitching REPEATEDLY about having to sign your post. I wouldn't really call that keeping the group moving. You were given good ideas but chose not to listen which is fine but do it silently.
All in all I would say your just a person the likes unrest and bickering.
NOT sorry to see you go,

Harry L
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56051 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 6/4/2014
Subject: Re: *Okay to put fighting fish out for a half hour in mid morning/
Hi Angela,

  From day one I've always given my Goldfish real plants-I just think it is nicer for them to brush against foliage rather than plastic!

  John<o)))<

ps-just viewed your website, you are doing a great job for the wildlife.


On 4 June 2014 22:12, Angela Cancilla Herschel angelasfeathers@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

Thank you Dawn and everyone.
I am not going to move him in and out as I don't want to stress him ...and the formulated food has D3 in it so I don't have to worry about the B part of the UV spectrum  as fish seem to be able to absorb it added to their food very well.
 I think it's great how you guys all like to have real water plants in your beautiful tanks. Plants ( including water plants)  don't need the UVB ..plants are fine with bright UVA lighting ..anything else said is just marketing .
When I got my Solarmeter 6.0 to test for UVB radiation I was shocked to find the only ones that emitted any actual readings of UVB ( B rays) was the Reptisun .  I have a beautiful garden aviary for my fully flighted (and  recall trained free flying) macaws ...but yet I fell for it and purchased the original OTT "full spectrum" floor lamps  ( actually I got four ) that I now only use for my art work...because the UVB reading on my meter and on other meters of my friends at the  Zoo ... also show zip ,ziltch, niente, nada , a reading of 1 or 2, and that is if you hold the meter no more than 1 "  away!
PS. I know Ted's (Dr Lafeber) wife Chris Davis!   
_______________________________________________
Ciao, Angela Cancilla Herschel in SoCal

Being kind is more important ..than being important. ~
Any good animal trainer knows the science of positive
 reinforcement includes .... people too.
 And always try for most positive least intrusive methods. ~
California Wildlife Center,volunteer wildlife warrior
www.cawildlife.org


Group: AquaticLife Message: 56052 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 6/4/2014
Subject: Re: Nano Shellie tank
H
​i Ray & Harry,

  Following on from you comments you would not believe the amount of people calling me via my web site with Goldfish problems who, when I ask how big is the tank [always my first question] will reply "oh it's big enough". When pressed-big enough usually means one step up from a 'kid's starter tank or bowl. If the fish is extremely lucky he will have an airstone in there as well!!


  John<o)))<
  ​


On 4 June 2014 23:27, Deenerz@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

Ray,
 
As always you were a perfect gentleman throughout this situation.
Glad you are here and I always pay attention to your advice.
 
Thanks!
 
Mike


-----Original Message-----
From: sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
To: AquaticLife <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wed, Jun 4, 2014 11:03 am
Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Nano Shellie tank

 
Harry,  you make some good points here.  Ordinarily, I would not extend a thread such as this, but as this group -- and every other fish group -- is slow right now, I don't think this would interfere with more important matters (not that we'll dwell on it too long, though).  Just wanted to add that unlike anyone else, either a beginner or very experienced hobbyist, a person like this just doesn't want to be told anything -- period.  They get insulted when you try to suggest something that may improve what they're doing.  Anyone else I know of would at least welcome a suggestion (any suggestion) as someone else's different methods to at least consider and weigh against what they're doing.  In this way, they can judge for themselves if the idea may be an improvement over their old methods.  Someone else's methods are always interesting, and there may even be merit in them which hasn't been considered before, or even heard about, but not to these kinds.  Well, no big loss but I hate to see anyone headed for possible failure in this hobby when it's apparent that they don't know everything they profess to know.  They can sure be unnecessarily insulting though.  Well, on to better topics.
 
Best regards,
 
Ray
 
 
In a message dated 6/4/2014 12:57:18 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
 
Ray
I have found every list has one or two of them. They always take the easy way out on most things and then want to argue why their ways is right , always falling back on "it works for me" so no use trying something different if more work is required. Usually their way is the lazy way.

Probably wants a tank full of fish to show off, as long as their not floating on top and moving around some what that's good enough.

Harry L.

Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID


"sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 
Harry,
 
Thank you very much for the kind support.  Some people will twist things to fit their own psyche no matter how hard you try to help them and/or do anything to help them.  I guess they just don't want to hear it and believe that they don't need anyone else's advice.  It's impossible to talk to anyone like this as they'll always assume your intentions are not in their best interest.  I see (by Yahoo's message to us), that she unsubscribed yesterday; probably for the best, although I don't often like to see anyone quit this group.  Some people, you just can't please no matter how hard you try.  Thanks again for telling it like it is (or was)!
 
Ray
 
 
In a message dated 6/3/2014 2:55:46 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
 
I would liken it to keeping a dog on a short chain. The dog Will survive and be semi active but will not be happy and content or progress in life well.
As to keeping the group moving , you started out bitching REPEATEDLY about having to sign your post. I wouldn't really call that keeping the group moving. You were given good ideas but chose not to listen which is fine but do it silently.
All in all I would say your just a person the likes unrest and bickering.
NOT sorry to see you go,

Harry L


Group: AquaticLife Message: 56053 From: sevenspringss Date: 6/4/2014
Subject: Re: Nano Shellie tank
AOL Email
Mike,
 
Thank you very much for your kind words.  I surely tried to offer here some information which I know she wasn't aware of, even in (especially in) my next to last message to her.  I felt I bent over backwards to convince her of my sincerity to help her, and I'd do it again if I thought she'd take it and gain from it.  Needless to say, the part she threw back in my face when belittling me about "listing and rattling off" my personal experience was not well appreciated.  I don't believe I've ever mentioned much here about my experiences in the hobby before this, except perhaps saying at one time that I had been a fish store owner, as I prefer not to appear like I'm bragging.  I'd rather not have my accomplishments known and have whatever advice I can offer just be seen as knowledge learned, but I felt I'd convince her of the validity of the info if she knew some of my "credentials."  While she couldn't be talked to without twisting everything around, one other thing I learned many years ago is that it doesn't pay to escalate a confrontation, which she was turning this whole thing into.  I hope she does better elsewhere.  Thanks again, I didn't mean for her to turn this into a circus on the group.
 
Ray
    
 
In a message dated 6/4/2014 6:27:59 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
 

Ray,
 
As always you were a perfect gentleman throughout this situation.
Glad you are here and I always pay attention to your advice.
 
Thanks!
 
Mike


-----Original Message-----
From: sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
To: AquaticLife <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wed, Jun 4, 2014 11:03 am
Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Nano Shellie tank

 
Harry,  you make some good points here.  Ordinarily, I would not extend a thread such as this, but as this group -- and every other fish group -- is slow right now, I don't think this would interfere with more important matters (not that we'll dwell on it too long, though).  Just wanted to add that unlike anyone else, either a beginner or very experienced hobbyist, a person like this just doesn't want to be told anything -- period.  They get insulted when you try to suggest something that may improve what they're doing.  Anyone else I know of would at least welcome a suggestion (any suggestion) as someone else's different methods to at least consider and weigh against what they're doing.  In this way, they can judge for themselves if the idea may be an improvement over their old methods.  Someone else's methods are always interesting, and there may even be merit in them which hasn't been considered before, or even heard about, but not to these kinds.  Well, no big loss but I hate to see anyone headed for possible failure in this hobby when it's apparent that they don't know everything they profess to know.  They can sure be unnecessarily insulting though.  Well, on to better topics.
 
Best regards,
 
Ray
 
 
In a message dated 6/4/2014 12:57:18 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
 
Ray
I have found every list has one or two of them. They always take the easy way out on most things and then want to argue why their ways is right , always falling back on "it works for me" so no use trying something different if more work is required. Usually their way is the lazy way.

Probably wants a tank full of fish to show off, as long as their not floating on top and moving around some what that's good enough.

Harry L.

Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID


"sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 
Harry,
 
Thank you very much for the kind support.  Some people will twist things to fit their own psyche no matter how hard you try to help them and/or do anything to help them.  I guess they just don't want to hear it and believe that they don't need anyone else's advice.  It's impossible to talk to anyone like this as they'll always assume your intentions are not in their best interest.  I see (by Yahoo's message to us), that she unsubscribed yesterday; probably for the best, although I don't often like to see anyone quit this group.  Some people, you just can't please no matter how hard you try.  Thanks again for telling it like it is (or was)!
 
Ray
 
 
In a message dated 6/3/2014 2:55:46 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
 
I would liken it to keeping a dog on a short chain. The dog Will survive and be semi active but will not be happy and content or progress in life well.
As to keeping the group moving , you started out bitching REPEATEDLY about having to sign your post. I wouldn't really call that keeping the group moving. You were given good ideas but chose not to listen which is fine but do it silently.
All in all I would say your just a person the likes unrest and bickering.
NOT sorry to see you go,

Harry L

Group: AquaticLife Message: 56054 From: sevenspringss Date: 6/4/2014
Subject: Re: Nano Shellie tank
AOL Email
Hi John,
 
First, I'm glad you agreed to become a moderator with us.  You've always been extremely helpful with your posts.  Undoubtedly, there are goldfish keepers out there who still think that Goldfish bowls are the only way to house Goldfish -- most likely because this has always been the accepted way to keep them since these bowls have been around almost as long as people have been keeping these fish.  I guess we must assume that they never make any connection between the small Goldfish sold in Pet Shops, along with these bowls, and the 14" Comets found in private ponds.  I suppose, they may not even realize that Goldfish are kept in ponds, or they may think that the pond fish are totally different.  Why else would they be so sure that their 5 gallon tank is "big enough?"  An airstone?  What is that?  No one ever told them about this.  Well, all's I can say is keep up the good work, and don't get tired of explaining the proper way to keep Goldfish -- in a diplomatic way < g
>.
 
Ray
 
 
In a message dated 6/4/2014 7:04:31 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
 

H
​i Ray & Harry,

  Following on from you comments you would not believe the amount of people calling me via my web site with Goldfish problems who, when I ask how big is the tank [always my first question] will reply "oh it's big enough". When pressed-big enough usually means one step up from a 'kid's starter tank or bowl. If the fish is extremely lucky he will have an airstone in there as well!!


  John<o)))<
  ​


On 4 June 2014 23:27, Deenerz@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

Ray,
 
As always you were a perfect gentleman throughout this situation.
Glad you are here and I always pay attention to your advice.
 
Thanks!
 
Mike


-----Original Message-----
From: sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
To: AquaticLife <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wed, Jun 4, 2014 11:03 am
Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Nano Shellie tank

 
Harry,  you make some good points here.  Ordinarily, I would not extend a thread such as this, but as this group -- and every other fish group -- is slow right now, I don't think this would interfere with more important matters (not that we'll dwell on it too long, though).  Just wanted to add that unlike anyone else, either a beginner or very experienced hobbyist, a person like this just doesn't want to be told anything -- period.  They get insulted when you try to suggest something that may improve what they're doing.  Anyone else I know of would at least welcome a suggestion (any suggestion) as someone else's different methods to at least consider and weigh against what they're doing.  In this way, they can judge for themselves if the idea may be an improvement over their old methods.  Someone else's methods are always interesting, and there may even be merit in them which hasn't been considered before, or even heard about, but not to these kinds.  Well, no big loss but I hate to see anyone headed for possible failure in this hobby when it's apparent that they don't know everything they profess to know.  They can sure be unnecessarily insulting though.  Well, on to better topics.
 
Best regards,
 
Ray
 
 
In a message dated 6/4/2014 12:57:18 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
 
Ray
I have found every list has one or two of them. They always take the easy way out on most things and then want to argue why their ways is right , always falling back on "it works for me" so no use trying something different if more work is required. Usually their way is the lazy way.

Probably wants a tank full of fish to show off, as long as their not floating on top and moving around some what that's good enough.

Harry L.

Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID


"sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 
Harry,
 
Thank you very much for the kind support.  Some people will twist things to fit their own psyche no matter how hard you try to help them and/or do anything to help them.  I guess they just don't want to hear it and believe that they don't need anyone else's advice.  It's impossible to talk to anyone like this as they'll always assume your intentions are not in their best interest.  I see (by Yahoo's message to us), that she unsubscribed yesterday; probably for the best, although I don't often like to see anyone quit this group.  Some people, you just can't please no matter how hard you try.  Thanks again for telling it like it is (or was)!
 
Ray
 
 
In a message dated 6/3/2014 2:55:46 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
 
I would liken it to keeping a dog on a short chain. The dog Will survive and be semi active but will not be happy and content or progress in life well.
As to keeping the group moving , you started out bitching REPEATEDLY about having to sign your post. I wouldn't really call that keeping the group moving. You were given good ideas but chose not to listen which is fine but do it silently.
All in all I would say your just a person the likes unrest and bickering.
NOT sorry to see you go,

Harry L


Group: AquaticLife Message: 56055 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 6/5/2014
Subject: Re: Nano Shellie tank
Funny you should say that Ray-the amount of people who, when seeing my tank for the first time will ask if they are special kind of Goldfish as people are not used to seeing 9 & 10 inch long Goldfish. I just reply no-they are ordinary pond Comets!

  John<o)))<



On 5 June 2014 00:40, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

Hi John,
 
First, I'm glad you agreed to become a moderator with us.  You've always been extremely helpful with your posts.  Undoubtedly, there are goldfish keepers out there who still think that Goldfish bowls are the only way to house Goldfish -- most likely because this has always been the accepted way to keep them since these bowls have been around almost as long as people have been keeping these fish.  I guess we must assume that they never make any connection between the small Goldfish sold in Pet Shops, along with these bowls, and the 14" Comets found in private ponds.  I suppose, they may not even realize that Goldfish are kept in ponds, or they may think that the pond fish are totally different.  Why else would they be so sure that their 5 gallon tank is "big enough?"  An airstone?  What is that?  No one ever told them about this.  Well, all's I can say is keep up the good work, and don't get tired of explaining the proper way to keep Goldfish -- in a diplomatic way < g >.
 
Ray
 
 
In a message dated 6/4/2014 7:04:31 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
 

H
​i Ray & Harry,

  Following on from you comments you would not believe the amount of people calling me via my web site with Goldfish problems who, when I ask how big is the tank [always my first question] will reply "oh it's big enough". When pressed-big enough usually means one step up from a 'kid's starter tank or bowl. If the fish is extremely lucky he will have an airstone in there as well!!


  John<o)))<
  ​


On 4 June 2014 23:27, Deenerz@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

Ray,
 
As always you were a perfect gentleman throughout this situation.
Glad you are here and I always pay attention to your advice.
 
Thanks!
 
Mike


-----Original Message-----
From: sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
To: AquaticLife <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wed, Jun 4, 2014 11:03 am
Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Nano Shellie tank

 
Harry,  you make some good points here.  Ordinarily, I would not extend a thread such as this, but as this group -- and every other fish group -- is slow right now, I don't think this would interfere with more important matters (not that we'll dwell on it too long, though).  Just wanted to add that unlike anyone else, either a beginner or very experienced hobbyist, a person like this just doesn't want to be told anything -- period.  They get insulted when you try to suggest something that may improve what they're doing.  Anyone else I know of would at least welcome a suggestion (any suggestion) as someone else's different methods to at least consider and weigh against what they're doing.  In this way, they can judge for themselves if the idea may be an improvement over their old methods.  Someone else's methods are always interesting, and there may even be merit in them which hasn't been considered before, or even heard about, but not to these kinds.  Well, no big loss but I hate to see anyone headed for possible failure in this hobby when it's apparent that they don't know everything they profess to know.  They can sure be unnecessarily insulting though.  Well, on to better topics.
 
Best regards,
 
Ray
 
 
In a message dated 6/4/2014 12:57:18 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
 
Ray
I have found every list has one or two of them. They always take the easy way out on most things and then want to argue why their ways is right , always falling back on "it works for me" so no use trying something different if more work is required. Usually their way is the lazy way.

Probably wants a tank full of fish to show off, as long as their not floating on top and moving around some what that's good enough.

Harry L.

Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID


"sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 
Harry,
 
Thank you very much for the kind support.  Some people will twist things to fit their own psyche no matter how hard you try to help them and/or do anything to help them.  I guess they just don't want to hear it and believe that they don't need anyone else's advice.  It's impossible to talk to anyone like this as they'll always assume your intentions are not in their best interest.  I see (by Yahoo's message to us), that she unsubscribed yesterday; probably for the best, although I don't often like to see anyone quit this group.  Some people, you just can't please no matter how hard you try.  Thanks again for telling it like it is (or was)!
 
Ray
 
 
In a message dated 6/3/2014 2:55:46 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
 
I would liken it to keeping a dog on a short chain. The dog Will survive and be semi active but will not be happy and content or progress in life well.
As to keeping the group moving , you started out bitching REPEATEDLY about having to sign your post. I wouldn't really call that keeping the group moving. You were given good ideas but chose not to listen which is fine but do it silently.
All in all I would say your just a person the likes unrest and bickering.
NOT sorry to see you go,

Harry L



Group: AquaticLife Message: 56056 From: ellie_elliott@... Date: 6/5/2014
Subject: Re: Nano Shellie tank
When I worked at Dobbies selling fish, I got sick of having to deal with rude, arrogant people that wouldn't accept that clown fish couldn't live in goldfish bowls.. They were often accompanied by a small sniveling child saying they WANT A NEMO! Sadly there is a lot of ignorance in the world, and for those willing to listen to others wisdom and learn, they will be treated with a fascinating hobby and healthy livestock! It's always the animals I feel bad for, as they are the ones that ultimately suffer an untimely and often torturous death due to lack of proper or sufficient care! It is my belief that owning an animal is a luxury, not a right, and that if you cannot care sufficiently for it, you should not get one. I am a moderator on an African Clawed Frog Group, and thanks to a prevalent company known as 'Grow a Frog ', the people that join our group as their frog is not well are mainly shocked when they discover that these frogs need at least 10 gallons each, filters and regular water changes, when on the packet it says no filter required, just change all the water once a month.. It's so sad that animals are missold like this, and in this situation I do not blame the people that purchased them and were just following the instructions, I blame the corporate companies that think it's OK to exploit these creatures for profit! Rant over! This group has been a wealth of information for me, and I intend to be a regular visitor to pick up more tips along my fish keeping journey! Ellie
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56057 From: Noura T. Date: 6/5/2014
Subject: Re: Still here

Many thanks, John J

 

 

Group: AquaticLife Message: 56058 From: Noura T. Date: 6/5/2014
Subject: Re: Still here

 

Hi Ray,

I appreciate your detailed explanation, that was just what’s needed!

For now, I have one question. Other questions may arise later when I discuss your explanation with my hubby, who will assist me with this, as he will –undoubtedly- have his own thoughts about all this J. For example, he previously suggested adding a glass corner triangle on top of the crack, and silicone it thoroughly, instead of adding a whole new bottom. I believe that if that was a valid option, someone here would have already mentioned it.

 

My question is about this step:

“Take the chisel and insert it carefully where needed between the new bottom and the
four verticle panels and center it, with approximately 1.5 mm of space all
around the perimeter. With that done, lay down a bead around the new
bottom's perimeter and press it down into this minor gap creating a seal between
all glass panels,”

 

By “lay down a bead around..” do you mean putting a layer of silicone?

And “press it down”: is this done with the chisel?

 

Many thanks,

Noura

 

Group: AquaticLife Message: 56059 From: sevenspringss Date: 6/5/2014
Subject: Re: Nano Shellie tank
AOL Email
Hi Ellie,
 
If I'm not mistaken, I believe that Dawn told us essentially the same thing a year or two ago -- about parents coming into her store with kids demanding "Nemo" and not knowing the first thing about keeping marine fish.  Something went through my mind last night about this general subject of purposefully putting only as much effort into maintaining their fish as they can get away with, without trying to do more for them.  As Harry put it, "They always take the easy way out."  In my estimation, a good fish keeper is one who considers the fish they're currently caring for as irreplaceable, even though more can usually be found at their nearest pet shop.  These animals are not expendable and if cared for with that in mind, the fish that all hobbyists are caring for now would receive better treatment.  If those hobbyists who aren't sure of proper care would admit that to themselves, then maybe they'd seek out the information they're lacking. 
 
While we all know that fish can be bought for 50 cents or $50 (or more), but if they were all cared for as being precious (which they ARE), then maybe more people would give them better treatment instead of just considering them throw-away items when they choose not to give them proper maintenance.  On these Tanganyika "Shellies" as a general subject, I'm not meaning to say that they need a humongous size tank, as they only reach a size of about 1 3/4", but some reports I've read indicate there are hobbyists keeping a harem (of four) of them in as small as a three gallon tank.  They really don't need large tanks at all (and are noted for that), but they still need an adequate size one even though they're this small.   It's almost as though there's a contest going on as to who can keep these fish in the smallest tank they can, only because they can, while still being able to keep them alive.  That's not having the fish's best interest in mind.
 
It looks like were on the same page.  For one thing, there's too much misinformation out there.  While it's not being seen so much lately, a number of years back on here the new members who came to us with problems would frequently need to be told that there are far too many aquarium websites up on the 'Net giving out bogus info and not really knowing what they're talking about in many cases.  Yet, just the way their websites were set up, it made them look quite authoritative.  We had to inform them all over again as to what's really proper maintenance.  The corporations you mention which purposely misinform people for their own profits should be black-balled.  Please visit here often, even though it has slowed down.  There are many knowledgeable members here, one of whom I mentioned above.
 
Ray
 
 
In a message dated 6/5/2014 6:22:05 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
 

When I worked at Dobbies selling fish, I got sick of having to deal with rude, arrogant people that wouldn't accept that clown fish couldn't live in goldfish bowls.. They were often accompanied by a small sniveling child saying they WANT A NEMO! Sadly there is a lot of ignorance in the world, and for those willing to listen to others wisdom and learn, they will be treated with a fascinating hobby and healthy livestock! It's always the animals I feel bad for, as they are the ones that ultimately suffer an untimely and often torturous death due to lack of proper or sufficient care! It is my belief that owning an animal is a luxury, not a right, and that if you cannot care sufficiently for it, you should not get one. I am a moderator on an African Clawed Frog Group, and thanks to a prevalent company known as 'Grow a Frog ', the people that join our group as their frog is not well are mainly shocked when they discover that these frogs need at least 10 gallons each, filters and regular water changes, when on the packet it says no filter required, just change all the water once a month.. It's so sad that animals are missold like this, and in this situation I do not blame the people that purchased them and were just following the instructions, I blame the corporate companies that think it's OK to exploit these creatures for profit! Rant over! This group has been a wealth of information for me, and I intend to be a regular visitor to pick up more tips along my fish keeping journey! Ellie

Group: AquaticLife Message: 56060 From: oldies1433 Date: 6/5/2014
Subject: Re: Nano Shellie tank
There is one thing out of this whole situation that I don't understand.....................................why would anyone with this kind of mindset even brother joining any group?
Just to antagonize and make trouble?  Can't figure it?

Bill​


On Wed, Jun 4, 2014 at 2:02 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

Harry,  you make some good points here.  Ordinarily, I would not extend a thread such as this, but as this group -- and every other fish group -- is slow right now, I don't think this would interfere with more important matters (not that we'll dwell on it too long, though).  Just wanted to add that unlike anyone else, either a beginner or very experienced hobbyist, a person like this just doesn't want to be told anything -- period.  They get insulted when you try to suggest something that may improve what they're doing.  Anyone else I know of would at least welcome a suggestion (any suggestion) as someone else's different methods to at least consider and weigh against what they're doing.  In this way, they can judge for themselves if the idea may be an improvement over their old methods.  Someone else's methods are always interesting, and there may even be merit in them which hasn't been considered before, or even heard about, but not to these kinds.  Well, no big loss but I hate to see anyone headed for possible failure in this hobby when it's apparent that they don't know everything they profess to know.  They can sure be unnecessarily insulting though.  Well, on to better topics.
 
Best regards,
 
Ray
 
 
In a message dated 6/4/2014 12:57:18 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
 

Ray
I have found every list has one or two of them. They always take the easy way out on most things and then want to argue why their ways is right , always falling back on "it works for me" so no use trying something different if more work is required. Usually their way is the lazy way.

Probably wants a tank full of fish to show off, as long as their not floating on top and moving around some what that's good enough.

Harry L.

Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID


"sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

Harry,
 
Thank you very much for the kind support.  Some people will twist things to fit their own psyche no matter how hard you try to help them and/or do anything to help them.  I guess they just don't want to hear it and believe that they don't need anyone else's advice.  It's impossible to talk to anyone like this as they'll always assume your intentions are not in their best interest.  I see (by Yahoo's message to us), that she unsubscribed yesterday; probably for the best, although I don't often like to see anyone quit this group.  Some people, you just can't please no matter how hard you try.  Thanks again for telling it like it is (or was)!
 
Ray
 
 
In a message dated 6/3/2014 2:55:46 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
 

I would liken it to keeping a dog on a short chain. The dog Will survive and be semi active but will not be happy and content or progress in life well.

As to keeping the group moving , you started out bitching REPEATEDLY about having to sign your post. I wouldn't really call that keeping the group moving. You were given good ideas but chose not to listen which is fine but do it silently.
All in all I would say your just a person the likes unrest and bickering.
NOT sorry to see you go,

Harry L


Group: AquaticLife Message: 56061 From: sevenspringss Date: 6/5/2014
Subject: Re: Still here
AOL Email
Hi Noura,
 
Please ask any questions on this as you need to, so that you thoroughly understand it.  As for putting a patch (corner triangle) on top of the crack, I purposefully didn't bring that up as for one thing I don't know at all in which direction this crack is running, and two, unless it's running from the end glass to the side glass (on that angle), it won't work at all -- and may still not work even if the crack is on this angle.  Part of the success with patching an angle crack -- if you understand what I'm describing here -- depends on it's distance from the corner.   On the other hand, a crack that has started at one of the bottom's edges near the corner and has only gone a short distance out towards the middle of the bottom (but has stopped after not going very far), will continue to spread even with a triangle patch on it unless a small (2 mm, for example) hole is drilled at the end of the crack closest to the center of the tank (not at the edge).  I doubt you have the facilities to drill the glass.  If you could describe this crack more -- length & direction --  maybe I could get a better idea of how to proceed, if there is a better procedure.
 
Yes, laying down a "bead" is laying down a layer of silicone.  The "bead" I'm trying to describe is the long thin layer of silicone sealant that you'd squeeze out of the tube along the length of the top of the joint of the new bottom and the verticle glass panes (sides and ends).  Now as for the chisel, that only has one use and it's not to press down on the silicone sealant "bead."  As I suggested, the new bottom is to be cut 3 mm shorter and 3 mm narrower than the inside dimensions of the tank.  When this new bottom is placed in the tank, there will be a 3 mm gap between the edge of the new bottom were it meets the side and the end of the tank.  The chisel's purpose is to gently nudge the new bottom away from the side and end that it's closest to, to center this new bottom within the tank -- instead of having a 3mm gap at one end or at one side, the chisel will be inserted between the new bottom and the narrowest gaps at one side and end, and move the new bottom over towards the center to increase the narrower gaps.  You want the two 3mm differences on the length and width to result in four 1.5 mm gaps at all four edges of the new bottom where it meets the four verticle panes.  I'm hoping I'm making myself clear on this, but if not, let me know.
 
Getting back to "pressing it down," after you apply a thin bead (layer) of silicone sealant along each joint -- and do this only as one joint at a time -- with you hands wearing latex gloves, use your index finger the press the silicone down into the joint while making a convex bead of it, as you run your finger from one end of the layer to the (from one corner to the other).  With care, this should result in one long uniform "bead" that continually contacts both the new bottom and the verticle (side or end) glass pane, as approximately no more than about an 8 mm (half your fingers width) strip on top of both (new bottom and end/side) panes at their edges.  If you could press the layer down (with your finger) as a 6 mm bead on each of these two panes, so much the better.  You want enough silicone laid down as a bead to prevent any leak (to make a good seal) but not too much to where it won't look neat. 
 
I hope I'm not saying too much that's leading to confusion.  These simple procedures are not easy to explain when it's impossible to actually show you.  In a case like this, it's easier done than said.  I do have a few questions for you which has just come to mind.  When you said that silicone tubes are available there near you, are they specifically for aquarium use?  Did you buy this in a pet shop?  If not for aquarium use, does it state whether it's to be used for window & doors or does it say for kitchen & bath?  If it's not specifically for aquariums, it can still be used if it's for windows & doors (but NOT for kitchen & bath); kitchen and bath silicone contains a mildew inhibitor which kills fish.  Are they just the small 3 ounce tubes or do you have a 10.1 ounce (299 mL) tube for use in a caulking gun?    
 
Ray 
 
  
 
In a message dated 6/5/2014 6:42:08 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
 

Hi Ray,

I appreciate your detailed explanation, that was just what’s needed!

For now, I have one question. Other questions may arise later when I discuss your explanation with my hubby, who will assist me with this, as he will –undoubtedly- have his own thoughts about all this J. For example, he previously suggested adding a glass corner triangle on top of the crack, and silicone it thoroughly, instead of adding a whole new bottom. I believe that if that was a valid option, someone here would have already mentioned it.

My question is about this step:

“Take the chisel and insert it carefully where needed between the new bottom and the
four verticle panels and center it, with approximately 1.5 mm of space all
around the perimeter. With that done, lay down a bead around the new
bottom's perimeter and press it down into this minor gap creating a seal between
all glass panels,”

By “lay down a bead around..” do you mean putting a layer of silicone?

And “press it down”: is this done with the chisel?

Many thanks,

Noura

Group: AquaticLife Message: 56062 From: sevenspringss Date: 6/5/2014
Subject: Re: Nano Shellie tank
AOL Email
Hi Bill,
 
Don't you think this same thing crossed my mind (?).  Apparently not for advice, but in all fairness, to share their experience and photos, as they put it and to show pics of their tanks.  They obviously don't want to be told how to better their experience but I thought this was part of what we're all about.  After all, we only want what's best for the fish.  Guess I shouldn't have suggested how to improve things, since I wasn't asked to < g
>.
 
Ray
 
 
In a message dated 6/5/2014 8:08:37 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
 

There is one thing out of this whole situation that I don't understand.....................................why would anyone with this kind of mindset even brother joining any group?
Just to antagonize and make trouble?  Can't figure it?

Bill​


On Wed, Jun 4, 2014 at 2:02 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

Harry,  you make some good points here.  Ordinarily, I would not extend a thread such as this, but as this group -- and every other fish group -- is slow right now, I don't think this would interfere with more important matters (not that we'll dwell on it too long, though).  Just wanted to add that unlike anyone else, either a beginner or very experienced hobbyist, a person like this just doesn't want to be told anything -- period.  They get insulted when you try to suggest something that may improve what they're doing.  Anyone else I know of would at least welcome a suggestion (any suggestion) as someone else's different methods to at least consider and weigh against what they're doing.  In this way, they can judge for themselves if the idea may be an improvement over their old methods.  Someone else's methods are always interesting, and there may even be merit in them which hasn't been considered before, or even heard about, but not to these kinds.  Well, no big loss but I hate to see anyone headed for possible failure in this hobby when it's apparent that they don't know everything they profess to know.  They can sure be unnecessarily insulting though.  Well, on to better topics.
 
Best regards,
 
Ray
 
 
In a message dated 6/4/2014 12:57:18 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
 

Ray
I have found every list has one or two of them. They always take the easy way out on most things and then want to argue why their ways is right , always falling back on "it works for me" so no use trying something different if more work is required. Usually their way is the lazy way.

Probably wants a tank full of fish to show off, as long as their not floating on top and moving around some what that's good enough.

Harry L.

Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID


"sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

Harry,
 
Thank you very much for the kind support.  Some people will twist things to fit their own psyche no matter how hard you try to help them and/or do anything to help them.  I guess they just don't want to hear it and believe that they don't need anyone else's advice.  It's impossible to talk to anyone like this as they'll always assume your intentions are not in their best interest.  I see (by Yahoo's message to us), that she unsubscribed yesterday; probably for the best, although I don't often like to see anyone quit this group.  Some people, you just can't please no matter how hard you try.  Thanks again for telling it like it is (or was)!
 
Ray
 
 
In a message dated 6/3/2014 2:55:46 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
 

I would liken it to keeping a dog on a short chain. The dog Will survive and be semi active but will not be happy and content or progress in life well.

As to keeping the group moving , you started out bitching REPEATEDLY about having to sign your post. I wouldn't really call that keeping the group moving. You were given good ideas but chose not to listen which is fine but do it silently.
All in all I would say your just a person the likes unrest and bickering.
NOT sorry to see you go,

Harry L


Group: AquaticLife Message: 56063 From: oldies1433 Date: 6/5/2014
Subject: Re: Nano Shellie tank
Well all I do know is that I admire your patience ...................for me, I could never
handle a situation like that, I just don't have that kind of temperament.  It's my temper that would be the first to go, maybe that's why I am not a moderator.  I would have to say that we here on Aquatic Life are in good hands.

You mentioned posting pictures, I have found that there are a number of ways to do this without joining Yahoo groups.  For full motion video, which I do not think that Yahoo supports anyway, there is the very popular YouTube.  For those gifted with the ability to take still photos of fish there is a site called Flickr.  These sites are very easy to use and as far as I know are free.  Of course the obvious feature here is that you do not have to be a member of a fish group to post or upload to them.  This allows your Aunt Sadie or Uncle Amos, to enjoy your photos as well by just using a link to them.

Finally I see Noura is having issue with replacing the bottom of an aquarium.  Not an easy task for sure.  Sometimes it is very difficult to get the "How" or visualize the instructions being given.  This occurs many times when the subject being covered has never been addressed by the folks requesting the information to do it.  With this in mind and along with the instructions that Ray has given you so far, I offer this site to help you along:


Regards,

Bill


On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 8:50 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

Hi Bill,
 
Don't you think this same thing crossed my mind (?).  Apparently not for advice, but in all fairness, to share their experience and photos, as they put it and to show pics of their tanks.  They obviously don't want to be told how to better their experience but I thought this was part of what we're all about.  After all, we only want what's best for the fish.  Guess I shouldn't have suggested how to improve things, since I wasn't asked to < g >.
 
Ray
 
 
In a message dated 6/5/2014 8:08:37 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
 

There is one thing out of this whole situation that I don't understand.....................................why would anyone with this kind of mindset even brother joining any group?
Just to antagonize and make trouble?  Can't figure it?

Bill​


On Wed, Jun 4, 2014 at 2:02 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

Harry,  you make some good points here.  Ordinarily, I would not extend a thread such as this, but as this group -- and every other fish group -- is slow right now, I don't think this would interfere with more important matters (not that we'll dwell on it too long, though).  Just wanted to add that unlike anyone else, either a beginner or very experienced hobbyist, a person like this just doesn't want to be told anything -- period.  They get insulted when you try to suggest something that may improve what they're doing.  Anyone else I know of would at least welcome a suggestion (any suggestion) as someone else's different methods to at least consider and weigh against what they're doing.  In this way, they can judge for themselves if the idea may be an improvement over their old methods.  Someone else's methods are always interesting, and there may even be merit in them which hasn't been considered before, or even heard about, but not to these kinds.  Well, no big loss but I hate to see anyone headed for possible failure in this hobby when it's apparent that they don't know everything they profess to know.  They can sure be unnecessarily insulting though.  Well, on to better topics.
 
Best regards,
 
Ray
 
 
In a message dated 6/4/2014 12:57:18 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
 

Ray
I have found every list has one or two of them. They always take the easy way out on most things and then want to argue why their ways is right , always falling back on "it works for me" so no use trying something different if more work is required. Usually their way is the lazy way.

Probably wants a tank full of fish to show off, as long as their not floating on top and moving around some what that's good enough.

Harry L.

Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID


"sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

Harry,
 
Thank you very much for the kind support.  Some people will twist things to fit their own psyche no matter how hard you try to help them and/or do anything to help them.  I guess they just don't want to hear it and believe that they don't need anyone else's advice.  It's impossible to talk to anyone like this as they'll always assume your intentions are not in their best interest.  I see (by Yahoo's message to us), that she unsubscribed yesterday; probably for the best, although I don't often like to see anyone quit this group.  Some people, you just can't please no matter how hard you try.  Thanks again for telling it like it is (or was)!
 
Ray
 
 
In a message dated 6/3/2014 2:55:46 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
 

I would liken it to keeping a dog on a short chain. The dog Will survive and be semi active but will not be happy and content or progress in life well.

As to keeping the group moving , you started out bitching REPEATEDLY about having to sign your post. I wouldn't really call that keeping the group moving. You were given good ideas but chose not to listen which is fine but do it silently.
All in all I would say your just a person the likes unrest and bickering.
NOT sorry to see you go,

Harry L



Group: AquaticLife Message: 56064 From: oldies1433 Date: 6/5/2014
Subject: Noura Tank Repair
​Hi Noura,

I think I may have missed your original post on this tank repair, may I ask, how big is the tank you are trying to repair?


Bill
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56065 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 6/5/2014
Subject: Re: Still here
Hi Noura,

  If you are still in doubt about Ray's suggested use of the chisel-It is just to get some lateral leverage in the thin gap once the new base is laid down to ensure all 4 edges are equi-distant from the 4 upright side panes. You could just as well use the end of a steel ruler or a thin flat blade screwdriver if you don't have a chisel.


  John<o)))<


On 5 June 2014 13:35, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

Hi Noura,
 
Please ask any questions on this as you need to, so that you thoroughly understand it.  As for putting a patch (corner triangle) on top of the crack, I purposefully didn't bring that up as for one thing I don't know at all in which direction this crack is running, and two, unless it's running from the end glass to the side glass (on that angle), it won't work at all -- and may still not work even if the crack is on this angle.  Part of the success with patching an angle crack -- if you understand what I'm describing here -- depends on it's distance from the corner.   On the other hand, a crack that has started at one of the bottom's edges near the corner and has only gone a short distance out towards the middle of the bottom (but has stopped after not going very far), will continue to spread even with a triangle patch on it unless a small (2 mm, for example) hole is drilled at the end of the crack closest to the center of the tank (not at the edge).  I doubt you have the facilities to drill the glass.  If you could describe this crack more -- length & direction --  maybe I could get a better idea of how to proceed, if there is a better procedure.
 
Yes, laying down a "bead" is laying down a layer of silicone.  The "bead" I'm trying to describe is the long thin layer of silicone sealant that you'd squeeze out of the tube along the length of the top of the joint of the new bottom and the verticle glass panes (sides and ends).  Now as for the chisel, that only has one use and it's not to press down on the silicone sealant "bead."  As I suggested, the new bottom is to be cut 3 mm shorter and 3 mm narrower than the inside dimensions of the tank.  When this new bottom is placed in the tank, there will be a 3 mm gap between the edge of the new bottom were it meets the side and the end of the tank.  The chisel's purpose is to gently nudge the new bottom away from the side and end that it's closest to, to center this new bottom within the tank -- instead of having a 3mm gap at one end or at one side, the chisel will be inserted between the new bottom and the narrowest gaps at one side and end, and move the new bottom over towards the center to increase the narrower gaps.  You want the two 3mm differences on the length and width to result in four 1.5 mm gaps at all four edges of the new bottom where it meets the four verticle panes.  I'm hoping I'm making myself clear on this, but if not, let me know.
 
Getting back to "pressing it down," after you apply a thin bead (layer) of silicone sealant along each joint -- and do this only as one joint at a time -- with you hands wearing latex gloves, use your index finger the press the silicone down into the joint while making a convex bead of it, as you run your finger from one end of the layer to the (from one corner to the other).  With care, this should result in one long uniform "bead" that continually contacts both the new bottom and the verticle (side or end) glass pane, as approximately no more than about an 8 mm (half your fingers width) strip on top of both (new bottom and end/side) panes at their edges.  If you could press the layer down (with your finger) as a 6 mm bead on each of these two panes, so much the better.  You want enough silicone laid down as a bead to prevent any leak (to make a good seal) but not too much to where it won't look neat. 
 
I hope I'm not saying too much that's leading to confusion.  These simple procedures are not easy to explain when it's impossible to actually show you.  In a case like this, it's easier done than said.  I do have a few questions for you which has just come to mind.  When you said that silicone tubes are available there near you, are they specifically for aquarium use?  Did you buy this in a pet shop?  If not for aquarium use, does it state whether it's to be used for window & doors or does it say for kitchen & bath?  If it's not specifically for aquariums, it can still be used if it's for windows & doors (but NOT for kitchen & bath); kitchen and bath silicone contains a mildew inhibitor which kills fish.  Are they just the small 3 ounce tubes or do you have a 10.1 ounce (299 mL) tube for use in a caulking gun?    
 
Ray 
 
  
 
In a message dated 6/5/2014 6:42:08 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
 

Hi Ray,

I appreciate your detailed explanation, that was just what’s needed!

For now, I have one question. Other questions may arise later when I discuss your explanation with my hubby, who will assist me with this, as he will –undoubtedly- have his own thoughts about all this J. For example, he previously suggested adding a glass corner triangle on top of the crack, and silicone it thoroughly, instead of adding a whole new bottom. I believe that if that was a valid option, someone here would have already mentioned it.

My question is about this step:

“Take the chisel and insert it carefully where needed between the new bottom and the
four verticle panels and center it, with approximately 1.5 mm of space all
around the perimeter. With that done, lay down a bead around the new
bottom's perimeter and press it down into this minor gap creating a seal between
all glass panels,”

By “lay down a bead around..” do you mean putting a layer of silicone?

And “press it down”: is this done with the chisel?

Many thanks,

Noura


Group: AquaticLife Message: 56066 From: Angela Cancilla Herschel Date: 6/5/2014
Subject: Under gravel filters?
Any recommendations ?
 Here is a 3 lb  tank ( Betta size) I was looking at, on Amazon, but not sure about underground filters ?
What do you guys think?

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001B4KG2Q/ref=ox_sc_sfl_title_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER

Ciao, Angela Cancilla Herschel in SoCal
Being kind is more important ...than being important.
Any good animal trainer knows the science of positive reinforcement ...includes people too.
And always try for ; most positive least intrusive methods.
Wildlife warrior volunteer at;
California Wildlife Center
www.cawildlife.org

Sent from my iPhone

Group: AquaticLife Message: 56067 From: sevenspringss Date: 6/6/2014
Subject: Re: Under gravel filters?
AOL Email
Hi again Angela,
 
There's nothing wrong with an undergravel filter in principle, although it still needs to be broken down periodically to remove the debris that accumulates under its plate -- and trapped in the gravel.  Actually, I'm not a fan of a round "tank" like this, although my preferences are immaterial here.  I first read all the reviews that were included in the website you provided the link to.  I don't know if you had the chance to read them, but I found some of these reviews inadvisable as a good buy.  I also googled this product to find more reviews.  There were several which stated that either the air pump or at least one (or more) of the 3 different color LED lights -- or both -- failed to work after about a month.  A common reason for the LED lights failing was said to be its close proximity to moisture, where it can't be prevented from entering the fixture.  
 
One review mentioned that the airstone couldn't be positioned very deeply as the air pump didn't seem strong enough to counteract the slightly greater water pressure towards the bottom of the tank, and so, it couldn't push air at a lower depth.  A couple of other reviews stated that fish could get into the undergravel filter's uplift tube in the center of the tank; one owner's Betta getting trapped there.  This tank is described as being light-weight (one report said "flimsy") plastic/acrylic construction, seemingly not very durable, but then, you wouldn't be moving it around anyway.  If it's water-tight, it should work, but I'm not sure about it's $24 value if its components don't hold up very long. 
 
I've had experience with the Hydor Mini Heater, and it didn't seem to produce very much heat at all.  To be fair though when saying this, I tried it in a 5.5 gallon tank, but still it didn't seem to raise the temperature appreciatively -- and Bettas prefer it near 78 o or so.   
 
My estimation is that you could do better by just going to your local pet shop (or -- PetSmart) and buying at least a 2 1/2 gallon tank if you don't have room for a 5 gallon one (a 5 gallon tank seems to be what most advanced Betta keepers use).  Either of these tanks can be bought at PetSmart at $10 when they have their quarterly $1 per gallon tank sales -- with $10 being the minimum sales price for any tank.  Their air pumps are around $12, as I recall, and a small air-operated inside filter is extremely reasonable anywhere.  You'd could then get a fluorescent light and a much better, needed heater that would be adequate, like one of the Cobalt Aquatic Mini-Therm heaters.  The light fixture should cover the whole tank as Bettas can be jumpers.  While this whole package will cost more than the $24 KollerKraft tank, the equipment will be more reliable -- and you'll be saving $9.99 right away, in shipping charges to put towards this package.  This is only one opinon though.        
 
Ray
 
 
In a message dated 6/6/2014 1:55:08 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
 

Any recommendations ?
 Here is a 3 lb  tank ( Betta size) I was looking at, on Amazon, but not sure about underground filters ?
What do you guys think?

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001B4KG2Q/ref=ox_sc_sfl_title_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER

Ciao, Angela Cancilla Herschel in SoCal
Being kind is more important ...than being important.
Any good animal trainer knows the science of positive reinforcement ...includes people too.
And always try for ; most positive least intrusive methods.
Wildlife warrior volunteer at;
California Wildlife Center
www.cawildlife.org

Sent from my iPhone

Group: AquaticLife Message: 56068 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 6/6/2014
Subject: Re: Under gravel filters?
Hi Angela,

  Just to add that in my experience it always seems best to avoid any gimmick or novelty item when keeping fish & that is across the board from fanciful ornaments & coloured gravels to unusual shaped tanks. These rarely benefit the inhabitants & are usually very poor value for money. I think the only acceptable departure from rectangular aquariums would be a bow-front tank-just my opinion of course.

  John<o)))<
 


On 6 June 2014 13:22, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

Hi again Angela,
 
There's nothing wrong with an undergravel filter in principle, although it still needs to be broken down periodically to remove the debris that accumulates under its plate -- and trapped in the gravel.  Actually, I'm not a fan of a round "tank" like this, although my preferences are immaterial here.  I first read all the reviews that were included in the website you provided the link to.  I don't know if you had the chance to read them, but I found some of these reviews inadvisable as a good buy.  I also googled this product to find more reviews.  There were several which stated that either the air pump or at least one (or more) of the 3 different color LED lights -- or both -- failed to work after about a month.  A common reason for the LED lights failing was said to be its close proximity to moisture, where it can't be prevented from entering the fixture.  
 
One review mentioned that the airstone couldn't be positioned very deeply as the air pump didn't seem strong enough to counteract the slightly greater water pressure towards the bottom of the tank, and so, it couldn't push air at a lower depth.  A couple of other reviews stated that fish could get into the undergravel filter's uplift tube in the center of the tank; one owner's Betta getting trapped there.  This tank is described as being light-weight (one report said "flimsy") plastic/acrylic construction, seemingly not very durable, but then, you wouldn't be moving it around anyway.  If it's water-tight, it should work, but I'm not sure about it's $24 value if its components don't hold up very long. 
 
I've had experience with the Hydor Mini Heater, and it didn't seem to produce very much heat at all.  To be fair though when saying this, I tried it in a 5.5 gallon tank, but still it didn't seem to raise the temperature appreciatively -- and Bettas prefer it near 78 o or so.   
 
My estimation is that you could do better by just going to your local pet shop (or -- PetSmart) and buying at least a 2 1/2 gallon tank if you don't have room for a 5 gallon one (a 5 gallon tank seems to be what most advanced Betta keepers use).  Either of these tanks can be bought at PetSmart at $10 when they have their quarterly $1 per gallon tank sales -- with $10 being the minimum sales price for any tank.  Their air pumps are around $12, as I recall, and a small air-operated inside filter is extremely reasonable anywhere.  You'd could then get a fluorescent light and a much better, needed heater that would be adequate, like one of the Cobalt Aquatic Mini-Therm heaters.  The light fixture should cover the whole tank as Bettas can be jumpers.  While this whole package will cost more than the $24 KollerKraft tank, the equipment will be more reliable -- and you'll be saving $9.99 right away, in shipping charges to put towards this package.  This is only one opinon though.        
 
Ray
 
 
In a message dated 6/6/2014 1:55:08 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
 

Any recommendations ?
 Here is a 3 lb  tank ( Betta size) I was looking at, on Amazon, but not sure about underground filters ?
What do you guys think?

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001B4KG2Q/ref=ox_sc_sfl_title_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER

Ciao, Angela Cancilla Herschel in SoCal
Being kind is more important ...than being important.
Any good animal trainer knows the science of positive reinforcement ...includes people too.
And always try for ; most positive least intrusive methods.
Wildlife warrior volunteer at;
California Wildlife Center
www.cawildlife.org

Sent from my iPhone


Group: AquaticLife Message: 56069 From: Donna Ransome Date: 6/7/2014
Subject: Re: Nano Shellie tank

Trust me you have Ray wrong.  You know how sometimes things come across differently in writing than in person?  I know Ray personally (fish clubs and auctions, etc.) and you couldn’t imagine a kinder human being.  His advice is really meant to help!

 

He and I don’t agree on 100% of fish keeping advice but I would still ask for his because 99% of it I do agree with.  I have not followed the whole thread but a 10G with 50% weekly water changes are good ideas for multies.

 


From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com ]
Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2014 1:41 PM
To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Nano Shellie tank

 

 

I don't believe I have you wrong :)

 

Again you don't believe I am wrong, but I need improvement? lol  Why?, because it doesn't run in line with your personal experience.

My personal experience, which I do not need to list and rattle off as you have, is no less valid than yours. All I will say is I am no newbie fish keeper, what works for me in my experience is what I will continue to do.

 

If you want people to post here and contribute their experiences, then say your piece and move on, not keep going on and on about it, because wether you think you do or not, you come across as pushy and rude.

Having to don a flame battle suit everytime you try to contribute to a community is not a fun thing, which is what these places should be about.

 

I have removed many of my posts, and would appreciate you as a moderator removing what I cannot. I really have no interest in being a part of this group anymore, and as soon as my content is removed in total I will be leaving. Sad considering I was at least keeping the group moving somewhat, or trying to at least.

 

You wonder why the group is getting so quiet. I'm sure there are other factors contributing, but sorry you are not helping in the way you come across to people.

 

Group: AquaticLife Message: 56070 From: Angela Cancilla Herschel Date: 6/7/2014
Subject: Betta fish (under gravel filter)
Thanks Ray and John ....I'm going with the 5 g rectangle ( or 2, with a heater and filter .
Cobalt Aquatic Mini-Therm
heater and a light fixture that covers the whole tank to prevent jumping that I have been warned about Betta's doing.

I often really hate asking at stores because usually so often as I'm sure you know , the lack of up to date information from them is appalling .....but I try and look at them as a "teaching moment."


>Hi Angela,
There's nothing wrong with an undergravel filter in principle, although it
still needs to be broken down periodically to remove the debris that
accumulates under its plate -- and trapped in the gravel. Actually, I'm not a
fan of a round "tank" like this, although my preferences are immaterial
here. I first read all the reviews that were included in the website you
provided the link to. I don't know if you had the chance to read them, but I
found some of these reviews inadvisable as a good buy. I also googled this
product to find more reviews. There were several which stated that either
the air pump or at least one (or more) of the 3 different color LED lights
-- or both -- failed to work after about a month. A common reason for the
LED lights failing was said to be its close proximity to moisture, where it
can't be prevented from entering the fixture.

One review mentioned that the airstone couldn't be positioned very deeply
as the air pump didn't seem strong enough to counteract the slightly
greater water pressure towards the bottom of the tank, and so, it couldn't push
air at a lower depth. A couple of other reviews stated that fish could get
into the undergravel filter's uplift tube in the center of the tank; one
owner's Betta getting trapped there. This tank is described as being
light-weight (one report said "flimsy") plastic/acrylic construction, seemingly
not very durable, but then, you wouldn't be moving it around anyway. If it's
water-tight, it should work, but I'm not sure about it's $24 value if its
components don't hold up very long.

I've had experience with the Hydor Mini Heater, and it didn't seem to
produce very much heat at all. To be fair though when saying this, I tried it
in a 5.5 gallon tank, but still it didn't seem to raise the temperature
appreciatively -- and Bettas prefer it near 78 o or so.

My estimation is that you could do better by just going to your local pet
shop (or -- PetSmart) and buying at least a 2 1/2 gallon tank if you don't
have room for a 5 gallon one (a 5 gallon tank seems to be what most
advanced Betta keepers use). Either of these tanks can be bought at PetSmart at
$10 when they have their quarterly $1 per gallon tank sales -- with $10
being the minimum sales price for any tank. Their air pumps are around $12, as
I recall, and a small air-operated inside filter is extremely reasonable
anywhere. You'd could then get a fluorescent light and a much better,
needed heater that would be adequate, like one of the Cobalt Aquatic Mini-Therm
heaters. The light fixture should cover the whole tank as Bettas can be
jumpers. While this whole package will cost more than the $24 KollerKraft
tank, the equipment will be more reliable -- and you'll be saving $9.99
right away, in shipping charges to put towards this package. This is only one
opinon though.

Ray

> Hi Angela,

Just to add that in my experience it always seems best to avoid any
gimmick or novelty item when keeping fish & that is across the board from
fanciful ornaments & coloured gravels to unusual shaped tanks. These rarely
benefit the inhabitants & are usually very poor value for money. I think
the only acceptable departure from rectangular aquariums would be a
bow-front tank-just my opinion of course.

John*<o)))<*

Ciao, Angela Cancilla Herschel in SoCal
Being kind is more important ...than being important.
Any good animal trainer knows the science of positive reinforcement ...includes people too.
And always try for ; most positive least intrusive methods.
Wildlife warrior volunteer at;
California Wildlife Center
www.cawildlife.org

Sent from my iPhone
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56072 From: oldies1433 Date: 6/11/2014
Subject: Re: Noura Tank Repair
Hi Noura,

Please keep us updated on this project?

Best wishes,

Bill​


On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 3:13 AM, 'Noura T.' n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 



Hi Bill,

It’s a 35 G tank.

I think that it’s a 23” x 35” (50 x 83 cm) footprint.

My best,

Noura

----------------------

<https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/AquaticLife/conversations/topics/56064;_ylc=X3oDMTJyanA4YXZhBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzg0OTUxNTcEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDQyNzUyBG1zZ0lkAzU2MDY0BHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2bXNnBHN0aW1lAzE0MDIwNDIyMjE-> Noura Tank Repair

Thu Jun 5, 2014 7:01 am (PDT) . Posted by:

<mailto:db1433@...?subject=Re%3A%20Noura%20Tank%20Repair> "oldies1433" db1433

​Hi Noura,

I think I may have missed your original post on this tank repair, may I
ask, how big is the tank you are trying to repair?

Bill

_________________________________________________

Noura Tawil

English - Arabic Translator

Latakia – Syria

<http://www.proz.com/translator/1729315> My Proz Translator Profile

<http://www.proz.com/translation-contests/35/winners> Winner/Translation Contest 2014

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Group: AquaticLife Message: 56073 From: José P. Zúñiga A. Date: 6/11/2014
Subject: I am a new joiner

Hi All:

I am a new joiner to the group. I live in Chicago and I recently bought a 55 gallon used-tank and I was wondering if you could guide me or provide me with some links where I can answers the following questions I have:

 

1) How do I clean my used-tank and Aqueon 55 gallon filter from the calcium deposits?

2) I would like to have a planted tank, so what type of reading do you recommend? High-tech or low tech planted tank?

3) I would like to have some angel fish, what other fish do you recommend to have with angelfish?

 

Thanks in advance,

Regards,

Jose Pablo (aka chepe)

Group: AquaticLife Message: 56074 From: noura_taweel Date: 6/11/2014
Subject: Re: Still here
This post was sent 10 hours ago from my Outlook, but somehow it never appeared here. I'm re-sending it.

Hi,

Sorry for taking so long to reply, it’s a long story.

Thanks for your continuous help and detailed replies. I totally understand your replies to my latest questions.

 

“Ray: I don't know at all in which direction this crack is running, and two, unless it's running from the end glass to the side glass (on that angle), it won't work at all and may still not work even if the crack is on this angle.”

 

The crack does  go from the end panel to the side panel. It has a bow shape, starting 2 cm from the corner at the side panel, and ending about 8” from the corner on the end panel. I had uploaded a photo of the crack earlier this month. It’s in my Album “Noura’s tanks in Syria”. Sorry that I can’t post a direct link right now because I’m replying offline (power outage, ADSL router off!). Please check it and let me know what you think. If you’re totally confident that a corner patch will work, then that would be terrific news for us.

 

“Ray: These simple procedures are not easy to explain when it's impossible to actually show you. In a case like this, it's easier done than said.”

You’re right, especially for a visually oriented person like me. Perhaps one day you’ll be able to make a YouTube explaining the process. It will be invaluable for people in this situation.

 

“Ray: are they specifically for aquarium use? Did you buy this in a pet shop?”

No, and No L

 

“Ray: If not for aquarium use, does it state whether it's to be used for window & doors or does it say for kitchen & bath? Kitchen & bath silicone contains a mildew inhibitor which kills fish.”

Shortly after joining this group, I learned about these facts. But even before the war began here, I couldn’t find 100% Silicon for window & door use. I asked pet shops and glass workshops as well, and they all told me that they only use “kitchen & bathroom” silicone for aquariums, with the mildew resistance feature. I eventually had to give up searching. Now all of my tanks, in the past and present, are assembled with this type of silicone. I’ve been filling and emptying any new tank on a daily basis for a week before putting anything in there. My newest tank (the cracked 35 G) went through the same process, and I was lucky not to lose a fish during the first couple of months. It doesn’t seem that I have another choice.


“Ray: Are they just the small 3 ounce tubes or do you have a 10.1 ounce (299 mL) tube for use in a caulking gun?”

It’s a 280 mL tube, 100% silicone, for use in a caulking gun. I got it last summer for a decorating project that I never got the chance (neither the will) to complete (which was a DIY stereofoam & cement background). And now it’s very difficult to find the same silicone material. However, I will give it a desperate try next time I go downtown, perhaps I will miraculously find a door & window silicone type.

After typing the above, I noticed that the Expiry date is March 2014 L. It’s still sealed, so I hope that it’s still working for my repair in case I couldn’t find the needed silicone.

 

All the best,

Noura

Group: AquaticLife Message: 56075 From: noura_taweel Date: 6/11/2014
Subject: Re: Noura Tank Repair
I will, Bill. However, I'm not planning on setting the repaired tank "when it's repaired" any time soon. Especially with the unstable situation in the city "rockets and the like".
The tank will probably sit in the balcony, patiently waiting for more peaceful times, just like we are!

My best,
Noura
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56076 From: oldies1433 Date: 6/11/2014
Subject: Re: Noura Tank Repair
Please take care and be careful ​Noura.   I know from the news that things are not that well in your part of the world
right now.

Bill


On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 1:48 PM, n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

I will, Bill. However, I'm not planning on setting the repaired tank "when it's repaired" any time soon. Especially with the unstable situation in the city "rockets and the like".
The tank will probably sit in the balcony, patiently waiting for more peaceful times, just like we are!

My best,
Noura


Group: AquaticLife Message: 56077 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 6/11/2014
Subject: Re: I am a new joiner
Hi Jose,

  Welcome to the group, I can answer half of question 1 for you! If your aquarium is a rectangular glass tank then you can use a little lemon juice or white vinegar & a regular glass scraper-be sure to rise the tank thoroughly afterwards to remove all traces of the citric acid/vinegar.

  John<o)))<


On 11 June 2014 18:05, José P. Zúñiga A. jpzuniga@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

Hi All:

I am a new joiner to the group. I live in Chicago and I recently bought a 55 gallon used-tank and I was wondering if you could guide me or provide me with some links where I can answers the following questions I have:

 

1) How do I clean my used-tank and Aqueon 55 gallon filter from the calcium deposits?

2) I would like to have a planted tank, so what type of reading do you recommend? High-tech or low tech planted tank?

3) I would like to have some angel fish, what other fish do you recommend to have with angelfish?

 

Thanks in advance,

Regards,

Jose Pablo (aka chepe)


Group: AquaticLife Message: 56078 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 6/11/2014
Subject: Re: Noura Tank Repair
Hi Noura,

  Thinking of you-hopefully there will soon be an end to the troubles. Despite the difficulties & problems you really are doing great for your fish-they are lucky to have you.

  John<o)))<


On 11 June 2014 18:54, oldies1433 db1433@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

Please take care and be careful ​Noura.   I know from the news that things are not that well in your part of the world
right now.

Bill


On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 1:48 PM, n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

I will, Bill. However, I'm not planning on setting the repaired tank "when it's repaired" any time soon. Especially with the unstable situation in the city "rockets and the like".
The tank will probably sit in the balcony, patiently waiting for more peaceful times, just like we are!

My best,
Noura



Group: AquaticLife Message: 56079 From: Harry Perry Date: 6/11/2014
Subject: Re: I am a new joiner
Hi Jose, welcome to our group.

I agree with John. I use vinegar for cleaning. Especially tank covers and light fixtures.

For stubborn "water marks" (calcium deposits) I just spray with vinegar after removing from the tank and let sit. for a few minutes. Cleans up well without toxic chemicals.

Your plants will depend on your lights. The average tank cover with lights is usually 1 watt per gallon which is low light.

http://www.tfhmagazine.com/details/articles/setting-up-a-successful-lowtech-planted-tank-like-a-pro-part-1-the-basics-full-article.htm

Keep in mind when dealing with angles...they are chiclids and when the lights go out they are predators. I wouldn't put5 anything small in with them.

http://www.fishchannel.com/fish-exclusives/aquarium-fish-international/cichlid-forum/angelfish-rams.aspx


Harry
--------------------------------------------

       
       Hi Jose,

  Welcome
to the group, I can answer half of question 1 for you! If
your aquarium is a rectangular glass tank then you can use a
little lemon juice or white vinegar & a regular glass
scraper-be sure to rise the tank thoroughly afterwards to
remove all traces of the citric acid/vinegar.


  John<o)))<


On 11
June 2014 18:05, José P. Zúñiga A. jpzuniga@...
[AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
wrote:

       
       
       Hi All:



I am a new joiner to the group. I live in Chicago and I
recently bought a 55
gallon used-tank and I was wondering if you could guide me
or provide me with
some links where I can answers the following questions I
have:

 

1) How do I clean my
used-tank and Aqueon 55 gallon filter from
the calcium deposits?

2) I would like to have a
planted tank, so what type of
reading do you recommend? High-tech or low tech planted
tank?

3) I would like to have
some angel fish, what other fish do
you recommend to have with angelfish?

 

Thanks in advance,

Regards,



Jose Pablo (aka chepe)


     
     

     
     






   










     
     

     
     



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Group: AquaticLife Message: 56080 From: sevenspringss Date: 6/11/2014
Subject: Re: I am a new joiner
AOL Email
Hi Jose,
 
A good calcium deposit remover is lemon juice, allowed to remain on the affected glass surface for a while to enable it to work.  You haven't said where these deposits are located on the tank, and I'm not going to wait for a reply, only to send you another message later and delay your work -- but I might expect it to be mostly along the old water line where the water continually evaporates from the surface.  If this is where you're talking about, and if these deposits are quite stubborn and difficult to get off, try Jelmar Company's "CLR" -- Calcium/Lime/Rust Remover.  You'll need to do each one of the four verticle panels at a time by first laying the empty tank on its side and pouring a quantity of this household product on the glass, allowing it to remain on the deposits overnight, and then scrubbing lightly with Fine 000 Grade Steel Wool.  After one side is done, lay it on its other side and then on each end and do the same thing.  This can take a while but it does a nice job and it's fish-safe; you just need to rinse the tank out thoroughly afterwards, but it's not toxic to fish like Windex is.  
 
While you're a new joiner here, I don't know how new you are to aquariums and their plants.  If you feel that you're not yet that well experienced with plants, there are plenty of plants which are low tech in their maintenance needs.  I'd recommend you start reading up on aquatic plants with this in mind.  For best results, plan on getting a reflector having a fluorescent tube rated at around 6000K (not 10,000K). 
 
In addition to Angelfish, you could get some of the medium size Tetras -- like Bleeding Heart or Lemon Tetras -- and some of the medium size Barbs (I do not recommend Tiger Barbs with Angels).  Honey Gouramies can be added and some livebearers like  a Platy of your choice of variety.  Cory Catfish and/or Bushynose Catfish would go well in this tank too.
 
Ray
        
 
In a message dated 6/11/2014 1:31:03 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
 

Hi All:

I am a new joiner to the group. I live in Chicago and I recently bought a 55 gallon used-tank and I was wondering if you could guide me or provide me with some links where I can answers the following questions I have:

 

1) How do I clean my used-tank and Aqueon 55 gallon filter from the calcium deposits?

2) I would like to have a planted tank, so what type of reading do you recommend? High-tech or low tech planted tank?

3) I would like to have some angel fish, what other fish do you recommend to have with angelfish?

 

Thanks in advance,

Regards,

Jose Pablo (aka chepe)

Group: AquaticLife Message: 56081 From: sevenspringss Date: 6/11/2014
Subject: Re: Noura Tank Repair
AOL Email
Hi Noura,
 
I checking over the dimensions of your tank's footprint, to see how safe a patch would be verses a complete bottom, I need to point out first of all, that here in the States, there are no 35" (or 36") long tanks made that have a width of 23" (or 24").  While such a length tank may still be made in Syria, in the width you stated -- even though it would seem rather odd -- the 50 cm you mentioned is really only 19 3/4" (19.75"), not 23", and the 83 cm is really 32.75", not 35".  As these measurements seem really odd, perhaps the tank may be 50 cm (19.75") X 91 cm (36") -- or 88 cm (35").  If the tank is this size and if it's 12" (31 cm) high, then it's a 38 U.S. Gallon size tank.  In any case, I have to consider your 50 cm (perhaps, 46 cm?) to be very near the correct width, which is my concern when considering a patch.
 
Ray
 
 
In a message dated 6/11/2014 3:21:47 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
 



Hi Bill,

It’s a 35 G tank.

I think that it’s a 23” x 35” (50 x 83 cm) footprint.

My best,

Noura

----------------------

<https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/AquaticLife/conversations/topics/56064;_ylc=X3oDMTJyanA4YXZhBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzg0OTUxNTcEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDQyNzUyBG1zZ0lkAzU2MDY0BHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2bXNnBHN0aW1lAzE0MDIwNDIyMjE-> Noura Tank Repair

Thu Jun 5, 2014 7:01 am (PDT) . Posted by:

<mailto:db1433@...?subject=Re%3A%20Noura%20Tank%20Repair> "oldies1433" db1433

​Hi Noura,

I think I may have missed your original post on this tank repair, may I
ask, how big is the tank you are trying to repair?

Bill

_________________________________________________

Noura Tawil

English - Arabic Translator

Latakia – Syria

<http://www.proz.com/translator/1729315> My Proz Translator Profile

<http://www.proz.com/translation-contests/35/winners> Winner/Translation Contest 2014

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife Message: 56082 From: sevenspringss Date: 6/11/2014
Subject: Re: Still here
AOL Email
Hi again Noura,
 
With your tank seeming to be near or between 18" and 20" (the 50 cm you mentioned) and as the crack appears to run parallel to the edge along the end, the minimum safest way to patch this crack -- if you only wanted to do a patch -- would be to install a rectangular piece of glass (not a corner-shaped piece of glass) from one side of the tank to the other, right up against the end of the tank over the crack, and extending out from that side about 12 cm to 15 cm (5" to 6").  As long as you're installing any glass though, I'd suggest installing the whole new bottom over the old one, not just a patch, as there's so much more strength in a complete bottom.  BTW, How high is this tank?
 
I don't have the faintest idea of how to do U-Tube (LOL).
 
It would be SO much better if you could find Window & Door Silicone.  If you can't find it, and have used tanks in the past assembled with Kitchen & Bath Silicone -- after rinsing it many times over a week or more, then perhaps installing a bottom with this toxic type of silicone will be safe after you also follow this same procedure of filling it with new water every day for at least a week.  I'm not positive of exactly what is being used in Kitchen & Bath Silicone toady, but some years back they added arsenic to kill the mildew -- which is why it killed the fish.  I really wouldn't trust this type of silicone, but if you keep water in these tanks put together with this type of silicone -- after you remove all (hopefully) of the mildew retardant -- then onky you would know how safe it would be.
 
I just wanted to know what size silicone tube(s) you planned to use, because if you planned to use the smaller tube, you'd need more than one, and should have several on hand as the installation should be done all at one time so that none of the sealant has begun to cure yet as you're completing the job.  I don't remember if I told you this, but you should do this either in a well-ventilated room (maybe with an electric fan), or (preferably) outdoors, maybe on the balcony if it's safe there.  The fumes from the silicone are awful and you need to hold your breath if you get too near it -- which is hard to avoid.   
 
As for the expiration date, the March date isn't written in stone as if April 1st June 11th) is too late, but a lot of it has to do with what temperature it was stored in.  I noticed the average high temperature (in Damascus) was around 20 o C in March, and June can have an average high around 35 o C.  Since you got this last Summer, and since July and August can have an average high of 37 o C (in Damascus), unless the tube of silicone was kept in cooler conditions, I'm afraid its shelf life could have been shortened, or at the very least, not being extended much past March.
 
 
What happens when using outdated silicone sealant is that it doesn't cure completely, and again, I speak only from experience.  It may just never set up completely and get firm as it should under normal conditions.  I'd suggest looking for a new tube of silicone if you can find it, and as you said, try to get the Window & door type.  While it's easy for me to suggest getting a new tube (while not considering the expense), it's so much easier to install a new whole bottom with silicone you'll know will cure properly, than to have to cut it out and install it all over again if it only half-cures.  I seem to remember than outdated silicone doesn't adhere as well, as most of the curing agent is gone -- which you'll know just from the smell, if you don't mind breathing in close proximity of it when applying it, the chances are that it's lost its usefulness.
 
Best wishes,
 
Ray
         
 
In a message dated 6/11/2014 2:39:06 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
 

This post was sent 10 hours ago from my Outlook, but somehow it never appeared here. I'm re-sending it.

Hi,

Sorry for taking so long to reply, it’s a long story.

Thanks for your continuous help and detailed replies. I totally understand your replies to my latest questions.

 

“Ray: I don't know at all in which direction this crack is running, and two, unless it's running from the end glass to the side glass (on that angle), it won't work at all and may still not work even if the crack is on this angle.”

 

The crack does  go from the end panel to the side panel. It has a bow shape, starting 2 cm from the corner at the side panel, and ending about 8” from the corner on the end panel. I had uploaded a photo of the crack earlier this month. It’s in my Album “Noura’s tanks in Syria”. Sorry that I can’t post a direct link right now because I’m replying offline (power outage, ADSL router off!). Please check it and let me know what you think. If you’re totally confident that a corner patch will work, then that would be terrific news for us.

 

“Ray: These simple procedures are not easy to explain when it's impossible to actually show you. In a case like this, it's easier done than said.”

You’re right, especially for a visually oriented person like me. Perhaps one day you’ll be able to make a YouTube explaining the process. It will be invaluable for people in this situation.

 

“Ray: are they specifically for aquarium use? Did you buy this in a pet shop?”

No, and No L

 

“Ray: If not for aquarium use, does it state whether it's to be used for window & doors or does it say for kitchen & bath? Kitchen & bath silicone contains a mildew inhibitor which kills fish.”

Shortly after joining this group, I learned about these facts. But even before the war began here, I couldn’t find 100% Silicon for window & door use. I asked pet shops and glass workshops as well, and they all told me that they only use “kitchen & bathroom” silicone for aquariums, with the mildew resistance feature. I eventually had to give up searching. Now all of my tanks, in the past and present, are assembled with this type of silicone. I’ve been filling and emptying any new tank on a daily basis for a week before putting anything in there. My newest tank (the cracked 35 G) went through the same process, and I was lucky not to lose a fish during the first couple of months. It doesn’t seem that I have another choice.


“Ray: Are they just the small 3 ounce tubes or do you have a 10.1 ounce (299 mL) tube for use in a caulking gun?”

It’s a 280 mL tube, 100% silicone, for use in a caulking gun. I got it last summer for a decorating project that I never got the chance (neither the will) to complete (which was a DIY stereofoam & cement background). And now it’s very difficult to find the same silicone material. However, I will give it a desperate try next time I go downtown, perhaps I will miraculously find a door & window silicone type.

After typing the above, I noticed that the Expiry date is March 2014 L. It’s still sealed, so I hope that it’s still working for my repair in case I couldn’t find the needed silicone.

 

All the best,

Noura

Group: AquaticLife Message: 56083 From: sevenspringss Date: 6/11/2014
Subject: Re: Still here
AOL Email
First paragraph:
 
Should have read -- over the crack, and extending out from that END (not side) about !2 cm to 15 cm.
 
Ray
 
 
In a message dated 6/11/2014 7:42:11 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
 

Hi again Noura,
 
With your tank seeming to be near or between 18" and 20" (the 50 cm you mentioned) and as the crack appears to run parallel to the edge along the end, the minimum safest way to patch this crack -- if you only wanted to do a patch -- would be to install a rectangular piece of glass (not a corner-shaped piece of glass) from one side of the tank to the other, right up against the end of the tank over the crack, and extending out from that side about 12 cm to 15 cm (5" to 6").  As long as you're installing any glass though, I'd suggest installing the whole new bottom over the old one, not just a patch, as there's so much more strength in a complete bottom.  BTW, How high is this tank?
 
I don't have the faintest idea of how to do U-Tube (LOL).
 
It would be SO much better if you could find Window & Door Silicone.  If you can't find it, and have used tanks in the past assembled with Kitchen & Bath Silicone -- after rinsing it many times over a week or more, then perhaps installing a bottom with this toxic type of silicone will be safe after you also follow this same procedure of filling it with new water every day for at least a week.  I'm not positive of exactly what is being used in Kitchen & Bath Silicone toady, but some years back they added arsenic to kill the mildew -- which is why it killed the fish.  I really wouldn't trust this type of silicone, but if you keep water in these tanks put together with this type of silicone -- after you remove all (hopefully) of the mildew retardant -- then onky you would know how safe it would be.
 
I just wanted to know what size silicone tube(s) you planned to use, because if you planned to use the smaller tube, you'd need more than one, and should have several on hand as the installation should be done all at one time so that none of the sealant has begun to cure yet as you're completing the job.  I don't remember if I told you this, but you should do this either in a well-ventilated room (maybe with an electric fan), or (preferably) outdoors, maybe on the balcony if it's safe there.  The fumes from the silicone are awful and you need to hold your breath if you get too near it -- which is hard to avoid.   
 
As for the expiration date, the March date isn't written in stone as if April 1st June 11th) is too late, but a lot of it has to do with what temperature it was stored in.  I noticed the average high temperature (in Damascus) was around 20 o C in March, and June can have an average high around 35 o C.  Since you got this last Summer, and since July and August can have an average high of 37 o C (in Damascus), unless the tube of silicone was kept in cooler conditions, I'm afraid its shelf life could have been shortened, or at the very least, not being extended much past March.
 
 
What happens when using outdated silicone sealant is that it doesn't cure completely, and again, I speak only from experience.  It may just never set up completely and get firm as it should under normal conditions.  I'd suggest looking for a new tube of silicone if you can find it, and as you said, try to get the Window & door type.  While it's easy for me to suggest getting a new tube (while not considering the expense), it's so much easier to install a new whole bottom with silicone you'll know will cure properly, than to have to cut it out and install it all over again if it only half-cures.  I seem to remember than outdated silicone doesn't adhere as well, as most of the curing agent is gone -- which you'll know just from the smell, if you don't mind breathing in close proximity of it when applying it, the chances are that it's lost its usefulness.
 
Best wishes,
 
Ray
         
 
In a message dated 6/11/2014 2:39:06 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
 

This post was sent 10 hours ago from my Outlook, but somehow it never appeared here. I'm re-sending it.

Hi,

Sorry for taking so long to reply, it’s a long story.

Thanks for your continuous help and detailed replies. I totally understand your replies to my latest questions.

 

“Ray: I don't know at all in which direction this crack is running, and two, unless it's running from the end glass to the side glass (on that angle), it won't work at all and may still not work even if the crack is on this angle.”

 

The crack does  go from the end panel to the side panel. It has a bow shape, starting 2 cm from the corner at the side panel, and ending about 8” from the corner on the end panel. I had uploaded a photo of the crack earlier this month. It’s in my Album “Noura’s tanks in Syria”. Sorry that I can’t post a direct link right now because I’m replying offline (power outage, ADSL router off!). Please check it and let me know what you think. If you’re totally confident that a corner patch will work, then that would be terrific news for us.

 

“Ray: These simple procedures are not easy to explain when it's impossible to actually show you. In a case like this, it's easier done than said.”

You’re right, especially for a visually oriented person like me. Perhaps one day you’ll be able to make a YouTube explaining the process. It will be invaluable for people in this situation.

 

“Ray: are they specifically for aquarium use? Did you buy this in a pet shop?”

No, and No L

 

“Ray: If not for aquarium use, does it state whether it's to be used for window & doors or does it say for kitchen & bath? Kitchen & bath silicone contains a mildew inhibitor which kills fish.”

Shortly after joining this group, I learned about these facts. But even before the war began here, I couldn’t find 100% Silicon for window & door use. I asked pet shops and glass workshops as well, and they all told me that they only use “kitchen & bathroom” silicone for aquariums, with the mildew resistance feature. I eventually had to give up searching. Now all of my tanks, in the past and present, are assembled with this type of silicone. I’ve been filling and emptying any new tank on a daily basis for a week before putting anything in there. My newest tank (the cracked 35 G) went through the same process, and I was lucky not to lose a fish during the first couple of months. It doesn’t seem that I have another choice.


“Ray: Are they just the small 3 ounce tubes or do you have a 10.1 ounce (299 mL) tube for use in a caulking gun?”

It’s a 280 mL tube, 100% silicone, for use in a caulking gun. I got it last summer for a decorating project that I never got the chance (neither the will) to complete (which was a DIY stereofoam & cement background). And now it’s very difficult to find the same silicone material. However, I will give it a desperate try next time I go downtown, perhaps I will miraculously find a door & window silicone type.

After typing the above, I noticed that the Expiry date is March 2014 L. It’s still sealed, so I hope that it’s still working for my repair in case I couldn’t find the needed silicone.

 

All the best,

Noura

Group: AquaticLife Message: 56084 From: José P. Zúñiga A. Date: 6/11/2014
Subject: Re: I am a new joiner
Hi Ray:
You are right, the deposits are along the old water line. Thanks for the advice. 
Regards,
Jose Pablo


On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 4:48 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

Hi Jose,
 
A good calcium deposit remover is lemon juice, allowed to remain on the affected glass surface for a while to enable it to work.  You haven't said where these deposits are located on the tank, and I'm not going to wait for a reply, only to send you another message later and delay your work -- but I might expect it to be mostly along the old water line where the water continually evaporates from the surface.  If this is where you're talking about, and if these deposits are quite stubborn and difficult to get off, try Jelmar Company's "CLR" -- Calcium/Lime/Rust Remover.  You'll need to do each one of the four verticle panels at a time by first laying the empty tank on its side and pouring a quantity of this household product on the glass, allowing it to remain on the deposits overnight, and then scrubbing lightly with Fine 000 Grade Steel Wool.  After one side is done, lay it on its other side and then on each end and do the same thing.  This can take a while but it does a nice job and it's fish-safe; you just need to rinse the tank out thoroughly afterwards, but it's not toxic to fish like Windex is.  
 
While you're a new joiner here, I don't know how new you are to aquariums and their plants.  If you feel that you're not yet that well experienced with plants, there are plenty of plants which are low tech in their maintenance needs.  I'd recommend you start reading up on aquatic plants with this in mind.  For best results, plan on getting a reflector having a fluorescent tube rated at around 6000K (not 10,000K). 
 
In addition to Angelfish, you could get some of the medium size Tetras -- like Bleeding Heart or Lemon Tetras -- and some of the medium size Barbs (I do not recommend Tiger Barbs with Angels).  Honey Gouramies can be added and some livebearers like  a Platy of your choice of variety.  Cory Catfish and/or Bushynose Catfish would go well in this tank too.
 
Ray
        
 
In a message dated 6/11/2014 1:31:03 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
 

Hi All:

I am a new joiner to the group. I live in Chicago and I recently bought a 55 gallon used-tank and I was wondering if you could guide me or provide me with some links where I can answers the following questions I have:

 

1) How do I clean my used-tank and Aqueon 55 gallon filter from the calcium deposits?

2) I would like to have a planted tank, so what type of reading do you recommend? High-tech or low tech planted tank?

3) I would like to have some angel fish, what other fish do you recommend to have with angelfish?

 

Thanks in advance,

Regards,

Jose Pablo (aka chepe)


Group: AquaticLife Message: 56085 From: José P. Zúñiga A. Date: 6/11/2014
Subject: Re: I am a new joiner
Hi Harry:

Thanks for the information and the links.
regards,
Jose Pablo


On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 4:44 PM, Harry Perry harryfisherman@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

Hi Jose, welcome to our group.

I agree with John. I use vinegar for cleaning. Especially tank covers and light fixtures.

For stubborn "water marks" (calcium deposits) I just spray with vinegar after removing from the tank and let sit. for a few minutes. Cleans up well without toxic chemicals.

Your plants will depend on your lights. The average tank cover with lights is usually 1 watt per gallon which is low light.

http://www.tfhmagazine.com/details/articles/setting-up-a-successful-lowtech-planted-tank-like-a-pro-part-1-the-basics-full-article.htm

Keep in mind when dealing with angles...they are chiclids and when the lights go out they are predators. I wouldn't put5 anything small in with them.

http://www.fishchannel.com/fish-exclusives/aquarium-fish-international/cichlid-forum/angelfish-rams.aspx

Harry
--------------------------------------------

       
       Hi Jose,

  Welcome


to the group, I can answer half of question 1 for you! If
your aquarium is a rectangular glass tank then you can use a
little lemon juice or white vinegar & a regular glass
scraper-be sure to rise the tank thoroughly afterwards to
remove all traces of the citric acid/vinegar.


  John<o)))<


On 11
June 2014 18:05, José P. Zúñiga A. jpzuniga@...

[AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
wrote:

       
       
       Hi All:



I am a new joiner to the group. I live in Chicago and I
recently bought a 55
gallon used-tank and I was wondering if you could guide me
or provide me with
some links where I can answers the following questions I
have:

 


1) How do I clean my
used-tank and Aqueon 55 gallon filter from
the calcium deposits?

2) I would like to have a
planted tank, so what type of
reading do you recommend? High-tech or low tech planted
tank?

3) I would like to have
some angel fish, what other fish do
you recommend to have with angelfish?

 


Thanks in advance,

Regards,



Jose Pablo (aka chepe)


     
     

     
     






   










     
     

     
     



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Group: AquaticLife Message: 56086 From: José P. Zúñiga A. Date: 6/11/2014
Subject: Re: I am a new joiner
Simond:
Thanks for your advice. I already bought the glass scrapper. 
Regards,

Jose Pablo


On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 4:17 PM, SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

Hi Jose,

  Welcome to the group, I can answer half of question 1 for you! If your aquarium is a rectangular glass tank then you can use a little lemon juice or white vinegar & a regular glass scraper-be sure to rise the tank thoroughly afterwards to remove all traces of the citric acid/vinegar.

  John<o)))<


On 11 June 2014 18:05, José P. Zúñiga A. jpzuniga@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

Hi All:

I am a new joiner to the group. I live in Chicago and I recently bought a 55 gallon used-tank and I was wondering if you could guide me or provide me with some links where I can answers the following questions I have:

 

1) How do I clean my used-tank and Aqueon 55 gallon filter from the calcium deposits?

2) I would like to have a planted tank, so what type of reading do you recommend? High-tech or low tech planted tank?

3) I would like to have some angel fish, what other fish do you recommend to have with angelfish?

 

Thanks in advance,

Regards,

Jose Pablo (aka chepe)



Group: AquaticLife Message: 56087 From: Noura T. Date: 6/12/2014
Subject: Re: Noura Tank Repair

Thank you very much, John and bill J

 

Group: AquaticLife Message: 56088 From: Noura T. Date: 6/12/2014
Subject: Re: Still here

 

Hi Ray,

You have every right of being confused by my tanks measurements, I have typed the height instead of width!

The actual footprint is 35 cm x 82 cm, the height is 50 cm (I’ll leave it to you to figure the inches).

It was custom made to fit my sturdy table.

 

I’ll do my best to find a new silicone tube. Cost won’t be an issue, the repair has to be made after all. The problem is finding an good quality while the market is flooded with rigged goods. Let’s hope for the best J

 

Thank you,

Noura

Group: AquaticLife Message: 56089 From: sevenspringss Date: 6/12/2014
Subject: Re: Still here
AOL Email
Hi Noura,
 
Okay, so then in inches, your tank is 13.75" wide X 32.25" long X 19.75" high.  and holds about 37 U.S. gallons (all figures being approximate, with the measurements being rounded off to the nearest 1/4")).  From what I'm understanding you to say, the crack starts about 2 cm (centimeters) away from the end panel -- at the side panel -- and extends for about 8" (inches) along the direction of the end panel.  In effect, about 20 cm (8") of the 35 cm (13.75") is cracked along the width of the tank (please correct me if I'm wrong), remaining about 2 cm out from the end all along its path and not ending at another edge. 
 
With the stress of the water's weight on it when filled, there's nothing to prevent the crack from continuing straight across to the other side panel (unless it's drilled where it now stops), so you wouldn't want to install a patch short of going from one side panel to the other -- to cover the area where the crack can eventually travel to.  While the crack may never continue further, even with a patch on it, it MAY continue at any time.  Then, the only thing that would be supporting the bottom at that end would be the patch and its strength would be dependent upon how far it extends from that end towards the opposite end.  In this case, I suggested the patch should be at least 12 cm (5") to 15 cm (6") long -- starting from the end that's cracked, out towards the opposite end; about 1/7 to 1/5 of the length of the tank.  I hope that makes some sense.
 
Now, as long as you'd be installing this size patch, I see no reason why a full size bottom shouldn't be installed over the old bottom as this would ensure a strong tank when your done, even though the section patch ought to work.  If on the other hand, the crack started at a distance of 5 cm out from the corner along the side, and continued on an angle to the end at a distance of 7.5 cm out from the corner, then a 10 cm X 15 cm corner patch could be installed as the bottom would still have most of its strength at that end -- and the crack wouldn't spread any further as it would already be complete from side to end, but this crack is different and has reduced the bottom's strength significantly at that end with the possibility of reducing it further if it spreads (you haven't said the crack has ended/completed, as coming into the edge, at any point along the side).  Please let me know if there's been any miscommunication, and if I'm not completely understanding you.
 
Ray   
 
 
In a message dated 6/12/2014 4:33:39 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
 

Hi Ray,

You have every right of being confused by my tanks measurements, I have typed the height instead of width!

The actual footprint is 35 cm x 82 cm, the height is 50 cm (I’ll leave it to you to figure the inches).

It was custom made to fit my sturdy table.

I’ll do my best to find a new silicone tube. Cost won’t be an issue, the repair has to be made after all. The problem is finding an good quality while the market is flooded with rigged goods. Let’s hope for the best J

Thank you,

Noura

Group: AquaticLife Message: 56090 From: kristen6105 Date: 6/12/2014
Subject: Assassin snails
Hi, just wanting to see if anyone had any experience in this department.  I have a 12 gal planted tank with a couple of cory cats, assorted tetras, a few shrimp, and three nerite snails.  Recently I have been overrun with malasian trumpet snails, they are everywhere!  I am trying to decide if I can safely add a couple assassin snails to get rid of them without hurting the nerites.  I have read conflicting reports when I have searched the web.  Just wondering what you guys thought.  Thanks
Kristen


Group: AquaticLife Message: 56091 From: ellie_elliott@... Date: 6/12/2014
Subject: Update on Puffers
So, just to update you guys, my 2 puffers Walter and Jessie are thriving! They eat a diet of live bloodworms (not too many to prevent an 'Alien' style eruption!), live brine shrimp, and assorted frozen foods. They have lovely chubby bellies, which are ready to be refilled every evening (their metabolism is insanely fast!). My ramshorn snails are breeding up a storm in their seperate tank, and the babies will soon be ready to be placed in the main tank to be another food source to be hunted between meal times! I honestly cannot thank you guys enough for all your help when I first got these little creatures. Without your help they would probably not be thriving as they are now, and I wouldn't be getting as much enjoyment out of watching them suck up their food like spaghetti! Ellie xx
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56092 From: sevenspringss Date: 6/12/2014
Subject: Re: Update on Puffers
AOL Email
Hi Ellie,
 
Glad to hear they're both doing so well.  Keep up the good work.
 
Also, I see that you sent in a message on Uniquaria on May 19 -- if you have another email address --  but it apparently wasn't posted until a few days ago (June 10).  There's an "Ellie" on there, also with Puffers, obtained on May 17, whom I'm guessing is you.   I don't remember you asking anything about a filter on here, but if you have any concerns let us know.  Without a filter going, and as long as the tank isn't overcrowded, there should still be an adequate amount of oxygen being absorbed through the surface.  You (if that's you on that other group; I remember you changing your address here and having a couple of problems doing it) apparently had luck with turning the filter around since I don't see any follow-ups.
 
Ray
 
 
In a message dated 6/12/2014 5:49:39 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
 

So, just to update you guys, my 2 puffers Walter and Jessie are thriving! They eat a diet of live bloodworms (not too many to prevent an 'Alien' style eruption!), live brine shrimp, and assorted frozen foods. They have lovely chubby bellies, which are ready to be refilled every evening (their metabolism is insanely fast!). My ramshorn snails are breeding up a storm in their seperate tank, and the babies will soon be ready to be placed in the main tank to be another food source to be hunted between meal times! I honestly cannot thank you guys enough for all your help when I first got these little creatures. Without your help they would probably not be thriving as they are now, and I wouldn't be getting as much enjoyment out of watching them suck up their food like spaghetti! Ellie xx

Group: AquaticLife Message: 56093 From: ellie_elliott@... Date: 6/12/2014
Subject: Re: Update on Puffers
Hi Ray, yes it was me as I was having problems with accessing the site at an earlier date, and yes, turning the filter head around solved the problem. The flow is greatly reduced, and the ripples seem to oxygenate the tank sufficiently whilst allowing the puffers to swim around the whole outside of the tank. You can remove my other profile so as not to cause further confusion if you like? Ellie
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56094 From: sevenspringss Date: 6/12/2014
Subject: Re: Update on Puffers
AOL Email
Hi Ellie,
 
I'm glad everything was solved.
 
Ray
 
 
In a message dated 6/12/2014 6:24:25 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
 

Hi Ray, yes it was me as I was having problems with accessing the site at an earlier date, and yes, turning the filter head around solved the problem. The flow is greatly reduced, and the ripples seem to oxygenate the tank sufficiently whilst allowing the puffers to swim around the whole outside of the tank. You can remove my other profile so as not to cause further confusion if you like? Ellie

Group: AquaticLife Message: 56095 From: ellie_elliott@... Date: 6/18/2014
Subject: Re: Update on Puffers
Walter http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff311/untamed_spirit/Mobile%20Uploads/IMAG2535_1.jpg Jessie http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff311/untamed_spirit/Mobile%20Uploads/IMAG2560_1.jpg Their home http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff311/untamed_spirit/Mobile%20Uploads/IMAG2574_1.jpg Ellie x
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56096 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 6/18/2014
Subject: Re: Update on Puffers
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56097 From: Terri Ferrier Date: 6/23/2014
Subject: New deco in my tank.

We finally got a live fish store here where I live!!!!  Petsmart will never see me again!!!  The owner also does maintenance, set up and custom design tanks.  He's been in business for quite a while with that and opened a store front about a month ago.  I called and got him to come out and re-do my tank today.  I was not happy with the cling back that was solid plants with lots of Green on it.  It seemed to make the tank look so dark.  If I had a solid colored wall behind the tank, I wouldn't bother with a cling back but it's a two tone wall with a chair rail and it looks terrible showing through the tank.  And I wanted all the gravel removed and replaced with sand.  This is a 75 gal aquarium and I'm no longer a spring chicken so I had him come out to do the work.  I was very pleased!  I had the cling back replaced with a solid blue that really makes the colors of my fish pop.  And the fish, especially al the cichlids are really happy with the sand.  Here's a link to a photo of my tank.

http://www5.snapfish.com/snapfish/thumbnailshare/AlbumID=11456479026/a=18005526026_18005526026/otsc=SHR/otsi=SALBlink/COBRAND_NAME=snapfish/

 

Terri Ferrier

Group: AquaticLife Message: 56098 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 6/23/2014
Subject: Re: New deco in my tank.
Hi Terri,

 Your tank looks great-well done! A tank should be a source of relaxation & enjoyment-not constant worry & work, you are lucky to have found the fish man. I like your comment about Petsmart, we have a similar organisation in the UK called Pets At Home. It's generally a terrible place with poor animal welfare & useless advice although to their credit they do fabulous plants!

  John<o)))<


On 24 June 2014 00:30, 'Terri Ferrier' terriferrier@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

We finally got a live fish store here where I live!!!!  Petsmart will never see me again!!!  The owner also does maintenance, set up and custom design tanks.  He's been in business for quite a while with that and opened a store front about a month ago.  I called and got him to come out and re-do my tank today.  I was not happy with the cling back that was solid plants with lots of Green on it.  It seemed to make the tank look so dark.  If I had a solid colored wall behind the tank, I wouldn't bother with a cling back but it's a two tone wall with a chair rail and it looks terrible showing through the tank.  And I wanted all the gravel removed and replaced with sand.  This is a 75 gal aquarium and I'm no longer a spring chicken so I had him come out to do the work.  I was very pleased!  I had the cling back replaced with a solid blue that really makes the colors of my fish pop.  And the fish, especially al the cichlids are really happy with the sand.  Here's a link to a photo of my tank.

http://www5.snapfish.com/snapfish/thumbnailshare/AlbumID=11456479026/a=18005526026_18005526026/otsc=SHR/otsi=SALBlink/COBRAND_NAME=snapfish/

 

Terri Ferrier


Group: AquaticLife Message: 56099 From: ellie_elliott@... Date: 6/24/2014
Subject: Re: New deco in my tank.
Wow! Your tank looks gorgeous! I have always wanted cichlids, but have never had an empty tank to have them in a species only set up! Ellie xx
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56100 From: ellie_elliott@... Date: 6/24/2014
Subject: Re: New deco in my tank.
I second the useless advice at Pets at Home. I went to my local one and asked the guy which snails will breed the most in my freshwater tank to feed my puffers. He sold me 2 nerite snails on the basis that there were a lot of them in the tank, so they must have bred. Having since done some research, it turns out Nerite snails need slightly brackish water to breed and for the eggs to hatch, so now I have 2 non breeding snails making their way around the tank! Fortunately they are good at eating the brown hair algae, something I had struggled with in the past, so they have their uses, however the bad advice given made me a little cross.. I always believe if you don't know the answer to a question, say so, don't guess! I see the result of bad information from pet stores frequently at my surgery too, sometimes bordering on dangerously wrong advice! Ellie Ellie
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56101 From: amejia1976 Date: 6/24/2014
Subject: Broken Seals

Need help...


25 in hight

36 in wide

18 in deep 


I have 3 spots were the seals broke. Any recommendations on where I can get some clear instructions on how to repair? 


This is 75 us gallons... and cant really afford to buy a new one.


But just in case any recommendations on where I can get one would be great.


Thanks


Alex

Group: AquaticLife Message: 56102 From: Terri Ferrier Date: 6/24/2014
Subject: Re: New deco in my tank.

Thanks Ellie.  A year ago, I restarted my aquarium hobby after 30 years.  May of last year, I started with a 36 gal tank and filled it with small community fish like I had in the past.  Then I decided to do something different and around Thanksgiving, I bought this 75 gal tank and decided to try the cichlids.  Other than kissing Gouramis, I had never had any Cichlids in my tanks.  I'm really enjoying them. 

 

Terri

 


From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2014 3:50 AM
To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: New deco in my tank.

 



Wow! Your tank looks gorgeous! I have always wanted cichlids, but have never had an empty tank to have them in a species only set up! Ellie xx

Group: AquaticLife Message: 56103 From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c Date: 6/24/2014
Subject: Posting photos
I just tried to post some new photos to share with the group, but Yahoo apparently isn't going to let me do that.  Can anyone help?  I got to the photo albums, tried to add photos to my existing album (Dawn's reef) and it said it uploaded them but then nothing showed up.  I tried again, tried to start a new album.  It said the photos were uploaded (upload complete) but when I was finished it said the folder was empty.  I hate all of these changes, it shouldn't be this complicated.  Ugh!
If anyone can help me with adding my photos to my album it would be much appreciated.

The photos I am attempting to post is of a scarlet reef hermit larvae, 1 of about 100 I found in my biocube yesterday.  I had to put it under the microscope to get the photo because they're so tiny.  Today I am down to about 5 or 6 of them still visible.  I'm not sure if my mandarin ate them during the course of yesterday/tonight but that would be a good guess.  There is also a slight chance that some of them have taken to the rock work to hide, so I will continue watching the tank.  I was unprepared for them, totally taken by surprise when I found them.  I'm planning to set up another biocube in the coming weeks/month so I can move the mandarin and goby out of this tank and hopefully successfully raise a full spawn of the hermit larvae in the near future.  (in case anyone is wondering,  yes this is saltwater)

Just wanted to share some happy news.  Hope everyone has a good week!

Dawn


Group: AquaticLife Message: 56104 From: deenerzz Date: 6/24/2014
Subject: Re: Posting photos
Done :)



-----Original Message-----
From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
To: AquaticLife <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tue, Jun 24, 2014 12:35 pm
Subject: [AquaticLife] Posting photos

 
I just tried to post some new photos to share with the group, but Yahoo apparently isn't going to let me do that.  Can anyone help?  I got to the photo albums, tried to add photos to my existing album (Dawn's reef) and it said it uploaded them but then nothing showed up.  I tried again, tried to start a new album.  It said the photos were uploaded (upload complete) but when I was finished it said the folder was empty.  I hate all of these changes, it shouldn't be this complicated.  Ugh!
If anyone can help me with adding my photos to my album it would be much appreciated.

The photos I am attempting to post is of a scarlet reef hermit larvae, 1 of about 100 I found in my biocube yesterday.  I had to put it under the microscope to get the photo because they're so tiny.  Today I am down to about 5 or 6 of them still visible.  I'm not sure if my mandarin ate them during the course of yesterday/tonight but that would be a good guess.  There is also a slight chance that some of them have taken to the rock work to hide, so I will continue watching the tank.  I was unprepared for them, totally taken by surprise when I found them.  I'm planning to set up another biocube in the coming weeks/month so I can move the mandarin and goby out of this tank and hopefully successfully raise a full spawn of the hermit larvae in the near future.  (in case anyone is wondering,  yes this is saltwater)

Just wanted to share some happy news.  Hope everyone has a good week!

Dawn

Group: AquaticLife Message: 56105 From: Amber Date: 6/24/2014
Subject: Re: Posting photos
I see your pictures, did you get it figured out finally? Congrats on the hermit crab larvae :)

Amber

On Tue, 24 Jun 2014 11:34:57 -0800, dawnshungryeyes4u2c@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

I just tried to post some new photos to share with the group, but Yahoo apparently isn't going to let me do that.  Can anyone help?  I got to the photo albums, tried to add photos to my existing album (Dawn's reef) and it said it uploaded them but then nothing showed up.  I tried again, tried to start a new album.  It said the photos were uploaded (upload complete) but when I was finished it said the folder was empty.  I hate all of these changes, it shouldn't be this complicated.  Ugh!
If anyone can help me with adding my photos to my album it would be much appreciated.

The photos I am attempting to post is of a scarlet reef hermit larvae, 1 of about 100 I found in my biocube yesterday.  I had to put it under the microscope to get the photo because they're so tiny.  Today I am down to about 5 or 6 of them still visible.  I'm not sure if my mandarin ate them during the course of yesterday/tonight but that would be a good guess.  There is also a slight chance that some of them have taken to the rock work to hide, so I will continue watching the tank.  I was unprepared for them, totally taken by surprise when I found them.  I'm planning to set up another biocube in the coming weeks/month so I can move the mandarin and goby out of this tank and hopefully successfully raise a full spawn of the hermit larvae in the near future.  (in case anyone is wondering,  yes this is saltwater)

Just wanted to share some happy news.  Hope everyone has a good week!

Dawn

  




--
Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56106 From: amejia1976 Date: 6/24/2014
Subject: Re: Broken Seals
Hello

Removed all silicone that I could. Do i need to do anything else? I uploaded a picture to AMejia1976 folder that shows a line on the left side. No matter how much I scrape with the blade I cant get it out.

Should I be fine to just put the new silicone? I ordered it and should be here in 2 days so if I need to clean now is the time. Someone recommended I use denature alcohol and mineral spirits to try and get that line off.

Any assistance would be appreciate it.

@lex
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56107 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 6/24/2014
Subject: Re: Posting photos
Very interesting Dawn,

  Thanks for posting. How long before they get big enough to fend for themselves outside of the rock work?

  John<o)))<


On 24 June 2014 20:55, Amber arberglund@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

I see your pictures, did you get it figured out finally? Congrats on the hermit crab larvae :)

Amber

On Tue, 24 Jun 2014 11:34:57 -0800, dawnshungryeyes4u2c@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

I just tried to post some new photos to share with the group, but Yahoo apparently isn't going to let me do that.  Can anyone help?  I got to the photo albums, tried to add photos to my existing album (Dawn's reef) and it said it uploaded them but then nothing showed up.  I tried again, tried to start a new album.  It said the photos were uploaded (upload complete) but when I was finished it said the folder was empty.  I hate all of these changes, it shouldn't be this complicated.  Ugh!
If anyone can help me with adding my photos to my album it would be much appreciated.

The photos I am attempting to post is of a scarlet reef hermit larvae, 1 of about 100 I found in my biocube yesterday.  I had to put it under the microscope to get the photo because they're so tiny.  Today I am down to about 5 or 6 of them still visible.  I'm not sure if my mandarin ate them during the course of yesterday/tonight but that would be a good guess.  There is also a slight chance that some of them have taken to the rock work to hide, so I will continue watching the tank.  I was unprepared for them, totally taken by surprise when I found them.  I'm planning to set up another biocube in the coming weeks/month so I can move the mandarin and goby out of this tank and hopefully successfully raise a full spawn of the hermit larvae in the near future.  (in case anyone is wondering,  yes this is saltwater)

Just wanted to share some happy news.  Hope everyone has a good week!

Dawn

  




--
Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/


Group: AquaticLife Message: 56108 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 6/24/2014
Subject: Re: Broken Seals
Hi Alex,

  I'm a little unsure what we are looking at in your photo, is the tank upright on one end?

  John<o)))<


On 25 June 2014 00:22, amejia1976@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

Hello


Removed all silicone that I could. Do i need to do anything else? I uploaded a picture to AMejia1976 folder that shows a line on the left side. No matter how much I scrape with the blade I cant get it out.

Should I be fine to just put the new silicone? I ordered it and should be here in 2 days so if I need to clean now is the time. Someone recommended I use denature alcohol and mineral spirits to try and get that line off.

Any assistance would be appreciate it.

@lex


Group: AquaticLife Message: 56109 From: amejia1976@yahoo.com Date: 6/24/2014
Subject: Re: Broken Seals

The tank is upright. What you are seen is the right corner on the front and upright.

I am thinking this is not old silicone but rather calcification. The tank has a manufacturing date of 4q 2005.

@lex

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android



From: SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>;
To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>;
Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Broken Seals
Sent: Wed, Jun 25, 2014 12:40:45 AM

 

Hi Alex,

  I'm a little unsure what we are looking at in your photo, is the tank upright on one end?

  John<o)))<


On 25 June 2014 00:22, amejia1976@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

Hello


Removed all silicone that I could. Do i need to do anything else? I uploaded a picture to AMejia1976 folder that shows a line on the left side. No matter how much I scrape with the blade I cant get it out.

Should I be fine to just put the new silicone? I ordered it and should be here in 2 days so if I need to clean now is the time. Someone recommended I use denature alcohol and mineral spirits to try and get that line off.

Any assistance would be appreciate it.

@lex


Group: AquaticLife Message: 56110 From: sevenspringss Date: 6/25/2014
Subject: Re: Broken Seals
AOL Email
It would be best if that calcification were removed.  Try using white vinegar or lemon juice, or for more stubborn deposits use a product called CLR (Calcium, Lime, Rust) and rinse well afterwards.  Whatever you use, don't just expect the deposits to wipe off with a rag soaked with your cleaning agent.  Best results are had when whatever you're using is allowed to pool over the deposits overnight.  Position your tank to lie flat on the side with the calcification.
 
All seams where you plan to lay down new sealant should be wiped with a clean rag containing acetone.  It's MUCH better than using rubbing alcohol, even 91%.  Acetone can be found in your hardware store in a quart size metal can; it's nothing more than nail polish remover, but it removes all traces of oils, etc. 
 
Ray
 
 
In a message dated 6/24/2014 8:48:58 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
 

The tank is upright. What you are seen is the right corner on the front and upright.

I am thinking this is not old silicone but rather calcification. The tank has a manufacturing date of 4q 2005.

@lex

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android



From: SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>;
To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>;
Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Broken Seals
Sent: Wed, Jun 25, 2014 12:40:45 AM

 

Hi Alex,

  I'm a little unsure what we are looking at in your photo, is the tank upright on one end?

  John<o)))<


On 25 June 2014 00:22, amejia1976@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

Hello


Removed all silicone that I could. Do i need to do anything else? I uploaded a picture to AMejia1976 folder that shows a line on the left side. No matter how much I scrape with the blade I cant get it out.

Should I be fine to just put the new silicone? I ordered it and should be here in 2 days so if I need to clean now is the time. Someone recommended I use denature alcohol and mineral spirits to try and get that line off.

Any assistance would be appreciate it.

@lex


Group: AquaticLife Message: 56111 From: Alex Mejia Date: 6/25/2014
Subject: Re: Broken Seals
Hello Ray

Thanks for the feedback.

Im using CLR right now. Going to use it overnight for each of the 5 sides.

Once done is the acetone all i should use? Once is rinsed do i need to use anything else to remove any other chemicals and make it fish safe?

All the fish are in a 35 gallon tank. All are alive swiming and eating as normal. Good thing i was able to move the water from the damaged tank to the backup on. I plan to move the water back in once repairs have been confirmed to have worked. Unless others suggest otherwise. 

Currently all filter equipment is in the wet dry sump so hopefully it will make it. Prefilter bioballs etc.



@lex


Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Note® II


-------- Original message --------
From: "sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]"
Date:06/25/2014 5:34 AM (GMT-05:00)
To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Broken Seals

 

It would be best if that calcification were removed.  Try using white vinegar or lemon juice, or for more stubborn deposits use a product called CLR (Calcium, Lime, Rust) and rinse well afterwards.  Whatever you use, don't just expect the deposits to wipe off with a rag soaked with your cleaning agent.  Best results are had when whatever you're using is allowed to pool over the deposits overnight.  Position your tank to lie flat on the side with the calcification.
 
All seams where you plan to lay down new sealant should be wiped with a clean rag containing acetone.  It's MUCH better than using rubbing alcohol, even 91%.  Acetone can be found in your hardware store in a quart size metal can; it's nothing more than nail polish remover, but it removes all traces of oils, etc. 
 
Ray
 
 
In a message dated 6/24/2014 8:48:58 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
 

The tank is upright. What you are seen is the right corner on the front and upright.

I am thinking this is not old silicone but rather calcification. The tank has a manufacturing date of 4q 2005.

@lex

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android



From: SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>;
To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>;
Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Broken Seals
Sent: Wed, Jun 25, 2014 12:40:45 AM

 

Hi Alex,

  I'm a little unsure what we are looking at in your photo, is the tank upright on one end?

  John<o)))<


On 25 June 2014 00:22, amejia1976@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

Hello


Removed all silicone that I could. Do i need to do anything else? I uploaded a picture to AMejia1976 folder that shows a line on the left side. No matter how much I scrape with the blade I cant get it out.

Should I be fine to just put the new silicone? I ordered it and should be here in 2 days so if I need to clean now is the time. Someone recommended I use denature alcohol and mineral spirits to try and get that line off.

Any assistance would be appreciate it.

@lex


Group: AquaticLife Message: 56112 From: sevenspringss Date: 6/26/2014
Subject: Re: Broken Seals
AOL Email
@lex,
 
After using the acetone, you then proceed with sealing the tank with silicone.  After the silicone sets (after 48 hours), then you rinse the tank out.  Nothing else is needed to remove any other chemicals, etc., but just rinse well to remove any CLR residue.  I don't remember your saying what size tank this is, but if all the fish that are now in the 35 gallon came from a much larger tank (?) -- this leaker, we can expect that this 35 gallon tank's water may be less than ideal by the time you're ready to put the fish back into this tank.  So again, depending on the size of this tank, you may not necessarily want to move all of the 35 gallon tank's water back into it but only enough to filled this tank up about half way; it will be like doing a large PWC when topping the rest of this tank off with fresh water.
 
There's one thing that I'm not totally grasping here, and that's the part where you said there are three places where the tank leaks.  Could you explain that more thoroughly?  Where are these leaks and are they all along one joint?
 
BTW, have you been following the directions on tank sealing written here just previous to your question?  If not, be sure to wear a pair of latex gloves as the silicone will take up to a week or more to remove from your hands and fingers if you don't.
 
Ray 
 
In a message dated 6/25/2014 8:05:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
 

Hello Ray

Thanks for the feedback.

Im using CLR right now. Going to use it overnight for each of the 5 sides.

Once done is the acetone all i should use? Once is rinsed do i need to use anything else to remove any other chemicals and make it fish safe?

All the fish are in a 35 gallon tank. All are alive swiming and eating as normal. Good thing i was able to move the water from the damaged tank to the backup on. I plan to move the water back in once repairs have been confirmed to have worked. Unless others suggest otherwise. 

Currently all filter equipment is in the wet dry sump so hopefully it will make it. Prefilter bioballs etc.



@lex


Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Note® II


-------- Original message --------
From: "sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]"
Date:06/25/2014 5:34 AM (GMT-05:00)
To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Broken Seals

 

It would be best if that calcification were removed.  Try using white vinegar or lemon juice, or for more stubborn deposits use a product called CLR (Calcium, Lime, Rust) and rinse well afterwards.  Whatever you use, don't just expect the deposits to wipe off with a rag soaked with your cleaning agent.  Best results are had when whatever you're using is allowed to pool over the deposits overnight.  Position your tank to lie flat on the side with the calcification.
 
All seams where you plan to lay down new sealant should be wiped with a clean rag containing acetone.  It's MUCH better than using rubbing alcohol, even 91%.  Acetone can be found in your hardware store in a quart size metal can; it's nothing more than nail polish remover, but it removes all traces of oils, etc. 
 
Ray
 
 
In a message dated 6/24/2014 8:48:58 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
 

The tank is upright. What you are seen is the right corner on the front and upright.

I am thinking this is not old silicone but rather calcification. The tank has a manufacturing date of 4q 2005.

@lex

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android



From: SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>;
To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>;
Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Broken Seals
Sent: Wed, Jun 25, 2014 12:40:45 AM

 

Hi Alex,

  I'm a little unsure what we are looking at in your photo, is the tank upright on one end?

  John<o)))<


On 25 June 2014 00:22, amejia1976@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

Hello


Removed all silicone that I could. Do i need to do anything else? I uploaded a picture to AMejia1976 folder that shows a line on the left side. No matter how much I scrape with the blade I cant get it out.

Should I be fine to just put the new silicone? I ordered it and should be here in 2 days so if I need to clean now is the time. Someone recommended I use denature alcohol and mineral spirits to try and get that line off.

Any assistance would be appreciate it.

@lex


Group: AquaticLife Message: 56113 From: Alex Mejia Date: 6/26/2014
Subject: Re: Broken Seal
Good morning Ray

Original tank is a 65 us gl (http://www.aqueonproducts.com/assets/013/26433_400wh.jpg) with a sump under. Sure has been a fun experience removing all decor and rocks. By the time i was done I had a full 5g bucket full of decor and another 5g bucket full of gravel. Had not done anything other than cleanings and PWCs in over 5 years.

The leaking was on 3 spots as indicated before. One was on the bottom right glass panel and there were two in the bottom in the rear glass panel. The two on the back were not close to the brace. Tank and stand were level both vertically and horizontally in case this is why you were asking as to where the leaks were.

Its likelly the leaking was due mostly to age as the tank is almost 10 years old. The previous owner had a salt water setup also; not that this should make a difference.

Yes; i read the Noura thread with the tank repair. Pretty neat stuff given the challenges she faces. After having caulked my tub and baseboards I know the pain silicone is. Great material but a pain still.

Now that I have caught up to the group I also realize I should have read the thread from Jose (the new join) but at the time I was in panic mode since I had never had this issue.

Appreciate your assistance tremendously. Especially since you could have just told me to go read other threads dealing with my challenge. 

@lex


Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Note® II






-------- Original message --------
From: "sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]"
Date:06/26/2014 6:58 AM (GMT-05:00)
To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Broken Seals

 

@lex,
 
After using the acetone, you then proceed with sealing the tank with silicone.  After the silicone sets (after 48 hours), then you rinse the tank out.  Nothing else is needed to remove any other chemicals, etc., but just rinse well to remove any CLR residue.  I don't remember your saying what size tank this is, but if all the fish that are now in the 35 gallon came from a much larger tank (?) -- this leaker, we can expect that this 35 gallon tank's water may be less than ideal by the time you're ready to put the fish back into this tank.  So again, depending on the size of this tank, you may not necessarily want to move all of the 35 gallon tank's water back into it but only enough to filled this tank up about half way; it will be like doing a large PWC when topping the rest of this tank off with fresh water.
 
There's one thing that I'm not totally grasping here, and that's the part where you said there are three places where the tank leaks.  Could you explain that more thoroughly?  Where are these leaks and are they all along one joint?
 
BTW, have you been following the directions on tank sealing written here just previous to your question?  If not, be sure to wear a pair of latex gloves as the silicone will take up to a week or more to remove from your hands and fingers if you don't.
 
Ray 
 
In a message dated 6/25/2014 8:05:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
 

Hello Ray

Thanks for the feedback.

Im using CLR right now. Going to use it overnight for each of the 5 sides.

Once done is the acetone all i should use? Once is rinsed do i need to use anything else to remove any other chemicals and make it fish safe?

All the fish are in a 35 gallon tank. All are alive swiming and eating as normal. Good thing i was able to move the water from the damaged tank to the backup on. I plan to move the water back in once repairs have been confirmed to have worked. Unless others suggest otherwise. 

Currently all filter equipment is in the wet dry sump so hopefully it will make it. Prefilter bioballs etc.



@lex


Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Note® II


-------- Original message --------
From: "sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]"
Date:06/25/2014 5:34 AM (GMT-05:00)
To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Broken Seals

 

It would be best if that calcification were removed.  Try using white vinegar or lemon juice, or for more stubborn deposits use a product called CLR (Calcium, Lime, Rust) and rinse well afterwards.  Whatever you use, don't just expect the deposits to wipe off with a rag soaked with your cleaning agent.  Best results are had when whatever you're using is allowed to pool over the deposits overnight.  Position your tank to lie flat on the side with the calcification.
 
All seams where you plan to lay down new sealant should be wiped with a clean rag containing acetone.  It's MUCH better than using rubbing alcohol, even 91%.  Acetone can be found in your hardware store in a quart size metal can; it's nothing more than nail polish remover, but it removes all traces of oils, etc. 
 
Ray
 
 
In a message dated 6/24/2014 8:48:58 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
 

The tank is upright. What you are seen is the right corner on the front and upright.

I am thinking this is not old silicone but rather calcification. The tank has a manufacturing date of 4q 2005.

@lex

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android



From: SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>;
To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>;
Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Broken Seals
Sent: Wed, Jun 25, 2014 12:40:45 AM

 

Hi Alex,

  I'm a little unsure what we are looking at in your photo, is the tank upright on one end?

  John<o)))<


On 25 June 2014 00:22, amejia1976@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

Hello


Removed all silicone that I could. Do i need to do anything else? I uploaded a picture to AMejia1976 folder that shows a line on the left side. No matter how much I scrape with the blade I cant get it out.

Should I be fine to just put the new silicone? I ordered it and should be here in 2 days so if I need to clean now is the time. Someone recommended I use denature alcohol and mineral spirits to try and get that line off.

Any assistance would be appreciate it.

@lex


Group: AquaticLife Message: 56114 From: José P. Zúñiga A. Date: 6/26/2014
Subject: Nature's care organic potting mix for planted aquarium

Hi all:

I bought a used 55 gallon tank and I would like to set it as a planted aquarium. I have a bag of nature’s care organic potting mix for planted aquarium and I was wondering if someone could advise me on whether I could use it or not? Also, is it necessary to clean the potting mix from the big chunks?


Thanks in advance,
Regards,

 

Jose Pablo

Group: AquaticLife Message: 56115 From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c Date: 6/26/2014
Subject: Re: Posting photos
John, they are gone now, as I expected would happen... they became food for the mandarin & goby who live in that tank.  It will be another month or so before I'm able to set up another tank to accommodate them.  I won't have the space until my daughter moves out.

Just to clarify, once they hatch they go free swimming and hang at/near the surface of the water, not into the rock work.  Old enough to fend for themselves would be the time at which they find & utilize shells for protection.  From the limited info I have found online, that happens at about 2 - 3 wks of age.  Based on the size and stage of development these were at when I found them, I would have to guess they were about 3 - 5 days old when I saw them.  The female hermit carries the eggs on her body until they hatch and I never saw that stage... which is why I was unprepared for this to happen and caught by surprise when I saw them.  I had no idea my hermits were spawning... and still have no idea which one is female.  The adult hermits spend a good part of their time climbing around on the rock and in the crevices and caves, so trying to sex them would mean literally breaking down the tank and removing all of the rock just to find them all.  That's not going to happen.  Once I have the ability to set up another tank I will be moving the mandarin and goby to the new tank so the hermits are left in this one without any predators. 

Dawn
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56116 From: sevenspringss Date: 6/26/2014
Subject: Re: Broken Seal
AOL Email
@lex,
 
I seldom tell the members to just go and read other threads in the archives dealing with the same problem, when often the "same" problem may be quite different.  I'm not asking you about the proximity of the leaks because I suspect the set-up may not be level, but because their proximity can show an inherent weakness along a particular joint.  If I'm reading you right, as it turns out, two of your leaks are along the same joint -- the joint where the bottom of the tank meets the back of the tank.  While I still don't know if both of these leaks are on the same side of the brace, I suspect each is on a different side; they will never be near the brace, unless this part of the tank's sealant is losing its adhesiveness, at which time it's time to replace it.  Still, as a 65 gallon tank is about 24" high and exerting considerable pressure at that depth, that the joints have weakened along that plane in two places can only be expected to get worse.  In effect, if the sealant has loosened to the extent that the leak extends for 4" now, over additional time it can be expected to loosen to an extent of 5" or even 6", since it's already starting to give way.  The resealing of the joint that you'll be attempting is not going to get new sealant in between the two panes of glass but merely seal the two panes from leakage at their confluence.  It won't be much more than a patch.  
 
While this may prevent leakage for a while, the water pressure over time can continue increase the length where the two panes are parting.  I'd suggest installing two more braces, front to back, in the area of these leaks.  By this, I don't mean braces added to the top molding, but a section of 1/4" plate glass at least 5" wide, running from front to back (inside) on the bottom of the tank.  These braces should be as tight (within reason) as possible when installed front to back, and when the silicone is coated onto their ends, it should also be coated on at least 3" of their undersides towards where they meet the sides of the tank.  In this way, the brace is firmly sealed to the bottom of the tank.  This, in addition to your resealing the tank, should make for an excellent repair lasting a good while.  I had to do this on a 20 gallon extra high and it's fine now.
 
Sometimes, for added leak-proof assurance, some of us will have our glass dealers cut us strips of 1/4" or 3/8" square plate glass the length of the inside of the tank, and as we install a slightly thinner bead of silicone down the length of the joint we quickly push this square glass "rod" down into the joint and then add more silicone along the sides of its length.  But, this is on tanks that we know haven't lost their joints' adhesion.  You could try that to borrow time, but it may not prevent the sides from bowing more over time at the bottom as the joint slowly loses its adhesion.
 
Ray
 
 
In a message dated 6/26/2014 2:48:25 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
 

Good morning Ray

Original tank is a 65 us gl (http://www.aqueonproducts.com/assets/013/26433_400wh.jpg) with a sump under. Sure has been a fun experience removing all decor and rocks. By the time i was done I had a full 5g bucket full of decor and another 5g bucket full of gravel. Had not done anything other than cleanings and PWCs in over 5 years.

The leaking was on 3 spots as indicated before. One was on the bottom right glass panel and there were two in the bottom in the rear glass panel. The two on the back were not close to the brace. Tank and stand were level both vertically and horizontally in case this is why you were asking as to where the leaks were.

Its likelly the leaking was due mostly to age as the tank is almost 10 years old. The previous owner had a salt water setup also; not that this should make a difference.

Yes; i read the Noura thread with the tank repair. Pretty neat stuff given the challenges she faces. After having caulked my tub and baseboards I know the pain silicone is. Great material but a pain still.

Now that I have caught up to the group I also realize I should have read the thread from Jose (the new join) but at the time I was in panic mode since I had never had this issue.

Appreciate your assistance tremendously. Especially since you could have just told me to go read other threads dealing with my challenge. 

@lex


Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Note® II






-------- Original message --------
From: "sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]"
Date:06/26/2014 6:58 AM (GMT-05:00)
To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Broken Seals

 

@lex,
 
After using the acetone, you then proceed with sealing the tank with silicone.  After the silicone sets (after 48 hours), then you rinse the tank out.  Nothing else is needed to remove any other chemicals, etc., but just rinse well to remove any CLR residue.  I don't remember your saying what size tank this is, but if all the fish that are now in the 35 gallon came from a much larger tank (?) -- this leaker, we can expect that this 35 gallon tank's water may be less than ideal by the time you're ready to put the fish back into this tank.  So again, depending on the size of this tank, you may not necessarily want to move all of the 35 gallon tank's water back into it but only enough to filled this tank up about half way; it will be like doing a large PWC when topping the rest of this tank off with fresh water.
 
There's one thing that I'm not totally grasping here, and that's the part where you said there are three places where the tank leaks.  Could you explain that more thoroughly?  Where are these leaks and are they all along one joint?
 
BTW, have you been following the directions on tank sealing written here just previous to your question?  If not, be sure to wear a pair of latex gloves as the silicone will take up to a week or more to remove from your hands and fingers if you don't.
 
Ray 
 
In a message dated 6/25/2014 8:05:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
 

Hello Ray

Thanks for the feedback.

Im using CLR right now. Going to use it overnight for each of the 5 sides.

Once done is the acetone all i should use? Once is rinsed do i need to use anything else to remove any other chemicals and make it fish safe?

All the fish are in a 35 gallon tank. All are alive swiming and eating as normal. Good thing i was able to move the water from the damaged tank to the backup on. I plan to move the water back in once repairs have been confirmed to have worked. Unless others suggest otherwise. 

Currently all filter equipment is in the wet dry sump so hopefully it will make it. Prefilter bioballs etc.



@lex


Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Note® II


-------- Original message --------
From: "sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]"
Date:06/25/2014 5:34 AM (GMT-05:00)
To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Broken Seals

 

It would be best if that calcification were removed.  Try using white vinegar or lemon juice, or for more stubborn deposits use a product called CLR (Calcium, Lime, Rust) and rinse well afterwards.  Whatever you use, don't just expect the deposits to wipe off with a rag soaked with your cleaning agent.  Best results are had when whatever you're using is allowed to pool over the deposits overnight.  Position your tank to lie flat on the side with the calcification.
 
All seams where you plan to lay down new sealant should be wiped with a clean rag containing acetone.  It's MUCH better than using rubbing alcohol, even 91%.  Acetone can be found in your hardware store in a quart size metal can; it's nothing more than nail polish remover, but it removes all traces of oils, etc. 
 
Ray
 
 
In a message dated 6/24/2014 8:48:58 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
 

The tank is upright. What you are seen is the right corner on the front and upright.

I am thinking this is not old silicone but rather calcification. The tank has a manufacturing date of 4q 2005.

@lex

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android



From: SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>;
To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>;
Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Broken Seals
Sent: Wed, Jun 25, 2014 12:40:45 AM

 

Hi Alex,

  I'm a little unsure what we are looking at in your photo, is the tank upright on one end?

  John<o)))<


On 25 June 2014 00:22, amejia1976@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

Hello


Removed all silicone that I could. Do i need to do anything else? I uploaded a picture to AMejia1976 folder that shows a line on the left side. No matter how much I scrape with the blade I cant get it out.

Should I be fine to just put the new silicone? I ordered it and should be here in 2 days so if I need to clean now is the time. Someone recommended I use denature alcohol and mineral spirits to try and get that line off.

Any assistance would be appreciate it.

@lex


Group: AquaticLife Message: 56117 From: sevenspringss Date: 6/26/2014
Subject: Re: Broken Seal
AOL Email
@lex,
 
There is one other way you could tackle this problem.  Similar to adding two additional glass cross braces across the bottom of the tank from front to back, you could install an approximate 35" X 3" piece of 1/4" plate glass along the length of that bottom-back seam as you reseal the tank, instead of using cross braces.  The edge of it abutting the back panel should be coated with silicone as should the bottom surface of it where it rests on the bottom of the tank.    It can be installed as two separate 17 1/2" (X 3") sections if it's more convenient -- and less expensive -- although the one piece will offer even more strength.  This should prevent further movement of the back panel while providing a good seal.
 
Ray 
 
In a message dated 6/26/2014 2:48:25 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
 

Good morning Ray

Original tank is a 65 us gl (http://www.aqueonproducts.com/assets/013/26433_400wh.jpg) with a sump under. Sure has been a fun experience removing all decor and rocks. By the time i was done I had a full 5g bucket full of decor and another 5g bucket full of gravel. Had not done anything other than cleanings and PWCs in over 5 years.

The leaking was on 3 spots as indicated before. One was on the bottom right glass panel and there were two in the bottom in the rear glass panel. The two on the back were not close to the brace. Tank and stand were level both vertically and horizontally in case this is why you were asking as to where the leaks were.

Its likelly the leaking was due mostly to age as the tank is almost 10 years old. The previous owner had a salt water setup also; not that this should make a difference.

Yes; i read the Noura thread with the tank repair. Pretty neat stuff given the challenges she faces. After having caulked my tub and baseboards I know the pain silicone is. Great material but a pain still.

Now that I have caught up to the group I also realize I should have read the thread from Jose (the new join) but at the time I was in panic mode since I had never had this issue.

Appreciate your assistance tremendously. Especially since you could have just told me to go read other threads dealing with my challenge. 

@lex


Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Note® II






-------- Original message --------
From: "sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]"
Date:06/26/2014 6:58 AM (GMT-05:00)
To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Broken Seals

 

@lex,
 
After using the acetone, you then proceed with sealing the tank with silicone.  After the silicone sets (after 48 hours), then you rinse the tank out.  Nothing else is needed to remove any other chemicals, etc., but just rinse well to remove any CLR residue.  I don't remember your saying what size tank this is, but if all the fish that are now in the 35 gallon came from a much larger tank (?) -- this leaker, we can expect that this 35 gallon tank's water may be less than ideal by the time you're ready to put the fish back into this tank.  So again, depending on the size of this tank, you may not necessarily want to move all of the 35 gallon tank's water back into it but only enough to filled this tank up about half way; it will be like doing a large PWC when topping the rest of this tank off with fresh water.
 
There's one thing that I'm not totally grasping here, and that's the part where you said there are three places where the tank leaks.  Could you explain that more thoroughly?  Where are these leaks and are they all along one joint?
 
BTW, have you been following the directions on tank sealing written here just previous to your question?  If not, be sure to wear a pair of latex gloves as the silicone will take up to a week or more to remove from your hands and fingers if you don't.
 
Ray 
 
In a message dated 6/25/2014 8:05:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
 

Hello Ray

Thanks for the feedback.

Im using CLR right now. Going to use it overnight for each of the 5 sides.

Once done is the acetone all i should use? Once is rinsed do i need to use anything else to remove any other chemicals and make it fish safe?

All the fish are in a 35 gallon tank. All are alive swiming and eating as normal. Good thing i was able to move the water from the damaged tank to the backup on. I plan to move the water back in once repairs have been confirmed to have worked. Unless others suggest otherwise. 

Currently all filter equipment is in the wet dry sump so hopefully it will make it. Prefilter bioballs etc.



@lex


Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Note® II


-------- Original message --------
From: "sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]"
Date:06/25/2014 5:34 AM (GMT-05:00)
To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Broken Seals

 

It would be best if that calcification were removed.  Try using white vinegar or lemon juice, or for more stubborn deposits use a product called CLR (Calcium, Lime, Rust) and rinse well afterwards.  Whatever you use, don't just expect the deposits to wipe off with a rag soaked with your cleaning agent.  Best results are had when whatever you're using is allowed to pool over the deposits overnight.  Position your tank to lie flat on the side with the calcification.
 
All seams where you plan to lay down new sealant should be wiped with a clean rag containing acetone.  It's MUCH better than using rubbing alcohol, even 91%.  Acetone can be found in your hardware store in a quart size metal can; it's nothing more than nail polish remover, but it removes all traces of oils, etc. 
 
Ray
 
 
In a message dated 6/24/2014 8:48:58 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
 

The tank is upright. What you are seen is the right corner on the front and upright.

I am thinking this is not old silicone but rather calcification. The tank has a manufacturing date of 4q 2005.

@lex

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android



From: SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>;
To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>;
Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Broken Seals
Sent: Wed, Jun 25, 2014 12:40:45 AM

 

Hi Alex,

  I'm a little unsure what we are looking at in your photo, is the tank upright on one end?

  John<o)))<


On 25 June 2014 00:22, amejia1976@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

Hello


Removed all silicone that I could. Do i need to do anything else? I uploaded a picture to AMejia1976 folder that shows a line on the left side. No matter how much I scrape with the blade I cant get it out.

Should I be fine to just put the new silicone? I ordered it and should be here in 2 days so if I need to clean now is the time. Someone recommended I use denature alcohol and mineral spirits to try and get that line off.

Any assistance would be appreciate it.

@lex


Group: AquaticLife Message: 56118 From: Michael Li Date: 7/1/2014
Subject: aloha from New York City - new member
Hi everyone,

My name is Michael, and I'm a reptile keeper from New York City, interested in aquatics, as well.

Pleased to meet all of you, and I hope to learn a lot from this group.

Best,
Michael
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56119 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 7/2/2014
Subject: Re: aloha from New York City - new member
Hi Michael,

  Welcome to the group. what kind of aquatics are you interested in?

  John<o)))<


On 2 July 2014 03:52, Michael Li columbia.cs@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

Hi everyone,

My name is Michael, and I'm a reptile keeper from New York City, interested in aquatics, as well.

Pleased to meet all of you, and I hope to learn a lot from this group.

Best,
Michael


Group: AquaticLife Message: 56120 From: Michael Li Date: 7/2/2014
Subject: Re: aloha from New York City - new member
Hi John,

I love water lilies, and strange oddities such as Marimo balls. Are you familiar with them? Is there anyone else in this group that loves these "creatures?" Haha.

Michael


On Wed, Jul 2, 2014 at 4:07 AM, SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

Hi Michael,

  Welcome to the group. what kind of aquatics are you interested in?

  John<o)))<


On 2 July 2014 03:52, Michael Li columbia.cs@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

Hi everyone,

My name is Michael, and I'm a reptile keeper from New York City, interested in aquatics, as well.

Pleased to meet all of you, and I hope to learn a lot from this group.

Best,
Michael



Group: AquaticLife Message: 56121 From: amejia1976 Date: 7/2/2014
Subject: Re: Broken Seal
Good evening Ray;

You were right. After all the cleaning and wiping I discovered that the bottom seam where the back panel and bottom meet has no silicone in between them like the sides do. Definitely do not want to risk it breaking when I am not home.

Thanks for your assistance.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56122 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 7/2/2014
Subject: Re: aloha from New York City - new member
Hi Michael,

  I'm familiar with water lillies as I maintain ponds & sometimes have to move, divide or set them. As such I discovered the flower has a very nice scent. I was not aware of Marimo balls until your post & so I Googled them.

 John<o)))<

 


On 2 July 2014 14:52, Michael Li columbia.cs@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

Hi John,

I love water lilies, and strange oddities such as Marimo balls. Are you familiar with them? Is there anyone else in this group that loves these "creatures?" Haha.

Michael


On Wed, Jul 2, 2014 at 4:07 AM, SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

Hi Michael,

  Welcome to the group. what kind of aquatics are you interested in?

  John<o)))<


On 2 July 2014 03:52, Michael Li columbia.cs@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

Hi everyone,

My name is Michael, and I'm a reptile keeper from New York City, interested in aquatics, as well.

Pleased to meet all of you, and I hope to learn a lot from this group.

Best,
Michael




Group: AquaticLife Message: 56123 From: amejia1976 Date: 7/2/2014
Subject: New Freshwater tank

Greetings all;


As some of you might know my 65g US has lost its battle. Given that this was a hand me down I have no idea of what brands are reputable.


Here are the brands I am considering. All are for a similar 65g US with dimensions of 36W - 18D - 25H.


Aqueon - Formerly All Glass

Marineland which also makes the Perfecto brand

Deep Blue Professionals (This was recommended by my local LFS and a Petco employee)


I am somewhat familiar with Aqueon and Marineland as I have purchased other fish and non-fish products from them. Deep Blue I have never heard of.


All the manufacturers make regular and pre-drilled tanks. As I have a wet/dry wish sump and pump I believe I can use either. Only concern is with the slits on the pre-drilled tanks as the fish used to get sucked in on the overflow box I had on the other tank. This was remedy using a strip of window screening material around it but having looked at the pre-drilled options there is no easy way to put the screening material on it.


Any feedback that can be shared would be greatly appreciated.


@lex


Group: AquaticLife Message: 56124 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 7/6/2014
Subject: Re: New Freshwater tank
Hi Alex,

  I'm afraid I cannot give  you any info regarding tank manufacturers as I am in the UK, I'm surprised no one saw your original post so hopefully it will be spotted now!

  John<o)))<


On 2 July 2014 23:57, amejia1976@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

Greetings all;


As some of you might know my 65g US has lost its battle. Given that this was a hand me down I have no idea of what brands are reputable.


Here are the brands I am considering. All are for a similar 65g US with dimensions of 36W - 18D - 25H.


Aqueon - Formerly All Glass

Marineland which also makes the Perfecto brand

Deep Blue Professionals (This was recommended by my local LFS and a Petco employee)


I am somewhat familiar with Aqueon and Marineland as I have purchased other fish and non-fish products from them. Deep Blue I have never heard of.


All the manufacturers make regular and pre-drilled tanks. As I have a wet/dry wish sump and pump I believe I can use either. Only concern is with the slits on the pre-drilled tanks as the fish used to get sucked in on the overflow box I had on the other tank. This was remedy using a strip of window screening material around it but having looked at the pre-drilled options there is no easy way to put the screening material on it.


Any feedback that can be shared would be greatly appreciated.


@lex



Group: AquaticLife Message: 56125 From: sevenspringss Date: 7/6/2014
Subject: Re: New Freshwater tank
AOL Email
Never had a problem with Aqueon -- OR All Glass.
 
Ray
 
 
In a message dated 7/6/2014 3:58:21 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
 

Hi Alex,

  I'm afraid I cannot give  you any info regarding tank manufacturers as I am in the UK, I'm surprised no one saw your original post so hopefully it will be spotted now!

  John<o)))<


On 2 July 2014 23:57, amejia1976@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

Greetings all;


As some of you might know my 65g US has lost its battle. Given that this was a hand me down I have no idea of what brands are reputable.


Here are the brands I am considering. All are for a similar 65g US with dimensions of 36W - 18D - 25H.


Aqueon - Formerly All Glass

Marineland which also makes the Perfecto brand

Deep Blue Professionals (This was recommended by my local LFS and a Petco employee)


I am somewhat familiar with Aqueon and Marineland as I have purchased other fish and non-fish products from them. Deep Blue I have never heard of.


All the manufacturers make regular and pre-drilled tanks. As I have a wet/dry wish sump and pump I believe I can use either. Only concern is with the slits on the pre-drilled tanks as the fish used to get sucked in on the overflow box I had on the other tank. This was remedy using a strip of window screening material around it but having looked at the pre-drilled options there is no easy way to put the screening material on it.


Any feedback that can be shared would be greatly appreciated.


@lex



Group: AquaticLife Message: 56126 From: deenerzz Date: 7/6/2014
Subject: Re: New Freshwater tank
I am unfamiliar with "Deep Blue" but have had the other two brands and would use them without concern.

Mike


-----Original Message-----
From: SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
To: AquaticLife <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sun, Jul 6, 2014 12:58 pm
Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Freshwater tank

 
Hi Alex,

  I'm afraid I cannot give  you any info regarding tank manufacturers as I am in the UK, I'm surprised no one saw your original post so hopefully it will be spotted now!

  John<o)))<


On 2 July 2014 23:57, amejia1976@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 
Greetings all;

As some of you might know my 65g US has lost its battle. Given that this was a hand me down I have no idea of what brands are reputable.

Here are the brands I am considering. All are for a similar 65g US with dimensions of 36W - 18D - 25H.

Aqueon - Formerly All Glass
Marineland which also makes the Perfecto brand
Deep Blue Professionals (This was recommended by my local LFS and a Petco employee)

I am somewhat familiar with Aqueon and Marineland as I have purchased other fish and non-fish products from them. Deep Blue I have never heard of.

All the manufacturers make regular and pre-drilled tanks. As I have a wet/dry wish sump and pump I believe I can use either. Only concern is with the slits on the pre-drilled tanks as the fish used to get sucked in on the overflow box I had on the other tank. This was remedy using a strip of window screening material around it but having looked at the pre-drilled options there is no easy way to put the screening material on it.

Any feedback that can be shared would be greatly appreciated.

@lex


Group: AquaticLife Message: 56127 From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c Date: 7/7/2014
Subject: Re: New Freshwater tank
Nearly everything in my house is now Aqueon, from tanks to heaters to filters... even foods.  They are still the best out there in my opinion, and still offer the best in customer service, warranty, etc.

One thing you might want to investigate is the stands for the tanks.  If you have an existing manufactured stand that you intend to use, it's a good idea to stick with that company brand name for the tank that will sit on top of it.  Each company has slight differences in their sizes, anywhere from 1/8 to 1/4 inch, which makes a difference for how the tanks fit on stands (support), how covers and light fixtures sit on top, etc.  That is how each company keeps their copyright for things that the average person would think are all the same.  There are slight differences with every company.  Maybe that's a place for you to start?
Also, like the others, I have never heard of "Deep Blue" and I would encourage you to do some research before trusting an unknown/unpopular company.  Is that an actual manufacturer name or is it a product name?  There are many products out there, commonly found at places such as the chain stores and Walmart, etc. where the name on the product is different, sometimes even listed/advertised as the store's own brand name product, but it actually originates from one of the top major manufacturers.  I would suggest looking into that before trusting it.  If it is truly a different manufacturer than the top 3 or 4 in the industry, then some research about their reputation, their origin, warranty info, etc. would be in order.  With new companies I also do a court document search, too.  You would be surprised how many of those smaller, less known, or new companies get sued regularly.   I refuse to do business or purchase products from any company that has strings of lawsuits out there for defective products, breech of contract, refusal to honor warranty, etc.

Hope this info helps.

Dawn
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56128 From: Terri Ferrier Date: 7/7/2014
Subject: Can anyone identify this fish?

When I bought this fish, I was told it was a Leopard Catfish.  None of my searches has found any Leopard Catfish that even remotely looks like this guy.  He's about 4-5 inches right now.  I turned the photo sideways to get a better view of him.  He likes to hang on the glass behind my filter.  His top fin is even taller than it appears but it's partially hidden by the grass in the photo.  The photo is here:  http://www5.snapfish.com/snapfish/slideshow/AlbumID=11630822026/PictureID=485678406026/a=18005526026_18005526026/otsc=SHR/otsi=SPIClink/COBRAND_NAME=snapfish/

 

I'd appreciate it if anyone could help me find more info on this fish.

Thanks

 

Terri Ferrier

Group: AquaticLife Message: 56129 From: Sivakumar Viswanathan Date: 7/8/2014
Subject: Re: Can anyone identify this fish?

This is Synodontis catfish. You could do google, very interesting fish.

Regards
Siva


From: "'Terri Ferrier' terriferrier@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, 8 July 2014 12:15 PM
Subject: [AquaticLife] Can anyone identify this fish?

 
When I bought this fish, I was told it was a Leopard Catfish.  None of my searches has found any Leopard Catfish that even remotely looks like this guy.  He's about 4-5 inches right now.  I turned the photo sideways to get a better view of him.  He likes to hang on the glass behind my filter.  His top fin is even taller than it appears but it's partially hidden by the grass in the photo.  The photo is here:  http://www5.snapfish.com/snapfish/slideshow/AlbumID=11630822026/PictureID=485678406026/a=18005526026_18005526026/otsc=SHR/otsi=SPIClink/COBRAND_NAME=snapfish/
 
I'd appreciate it if anyone could help me find more info on this fish.
Thanks
 
Terri Ferrier


Group: AquaticLife Message: 56130 From: Terri Ferrier Date: 7/8/2014
Subject: Re: Can anyone identify this fish?

Thanks so much.  I found it, it's a Featherfin Catfish.

 

Terri

 


Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Can anyone identify this fish?

 

This is Synodontis catfish. You could do google, very interesting fish.

 

Regards

Siva

 

_._,___

Group: AquaticLife Message: 56131 From: deenerzz Date: 7/8/2014
Subject: Re: Can anyone identify this fish?
Synodontis Eupterus


http://www.planetcatfish.com/common/species.php?species_id=121

Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: 'Terri Ferrier' terriferrier@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
To: AquaticLife <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Mon, Jul 7, 2014 11:45 pm
Subject: [AquaticLife] Can anyone identify this fish?

 
When I bought this fish, I was told it was a Leopard Catfish.  None of my searches has found any Leopard Catfish that even remotely looks like this guy.  He's about 4-5 inches right now.  I turned the photo sideways to get a better view of him.  He likes to hang on the glass behind my filter.  His top fin is even taller than it appears but it's partially hidden by the grass in the photo.  The photo is here:  http://www5.snapfish.com/snapfish/slideshow/AlbumID=11630822026/PictureID=485678406026/a=18005526026_18005526026/otsc=SHR/otsi=SPIClink/COBRAND_NAME=snapfish/
 
I'd appreciate it if anyone could help me find more info on this fish.
Thanks
 
Terri Ferrier
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56132 From: sevenspringss Date: 7/8/2014
Subject: Re: Can anyone identify this fish?
AOL Email
Hi Terri,
 
I'm glad to see that the I.D. for your mystery (Synodontis) fish has been given.  But, I just wanted to add that when I tried accessing your link, that I got an message from Snapfish telling me -- "We're sorry, but the photo you're trying to view is a restricted access photo; it can only be viewed by friends who were given direct access by the photo owner."  Actually, this is the first time I've ever encountered "Snapfish."  I've never heard of this site before.  Do I need to join Snapfish to see any photos generated from there?
 
Ray
 
 
In a message dated 7/8/2014 2:45:11 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
 

When I bought this fish, I was told it was a Leopard Catfish.  None of my searches has found any Leopard Catfish that even remotely looks like this guy.  He's about 4-5 inches right now.  I turned the photo sideways to get a better view of him.  He likes to hang on the glass behind my filter.  His top fin is even taller than it appears but it's partially hidden by the grass in the photo.  The photo is here:  http://www5.snapfish.com/snapfish/slideshow/AlbumID=11630822026/PictureID=485678406026/a=18005526026_18005526026/otsc=SHR/otsi=SPIClink/COBRAND_NAME=snapfish/

I'd appreciate it if anyone could help me find more info on this fish.

Thanks

Terri Ferrier

Group: AquaticLife Message: 56133 From: Terri Ferrier Date: 7/8/2014
Subject: Re: Can anyone identify this fish?
AOL Email

You shouldn't have to join.  I don't know why it wouldn't let you view it.  I shared it with a link, so it should have taken you right to it.  Might have been just a glitch in their system at the time.  Snapfish is a photo share site generated by HP.  When they decided to shut it down, Kodak EasyShare turned everything over to Snapfish.

 

Terri

 


From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2014 5:03 AM
To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Can anyone identify this fish?

 

Hi Terri,

 

I'm glad to see that the I.D. for your mystery (Synodontis) fish has been given.  But, I just wanted to add that when I tried accessing your link, that I got an message from Snapfish telling me -- "We're sorry, but the photo you're trying to view is a restricted access photo; it can only be viewed by friends who were given direct access by the photo owner."  Actually, this is the first time I've ever encountered "Snapfish."  I've never heard of this site before.  Do I need to join Snapfish to see any photos generated from there?

 

Ray

 

 

 


Group: AquaticLife Message: 56134 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 7/8/2014
Subject: Re: Can anyone identify this fish?
Just to say I followed Terri's link & was able to view the photo ok.

  John<o)))<


On 8 July 2014 23:01, 'Terri Ferrier' terriferrier@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

You shouldn't have to join.  I don't know why it wouldn't let you view it.  I shared it with a link, so it should have taken you right to it.  Might have been just a glitch in their system at the time.  Snapfish is a photo share site generated by HP.  When they decided to shut it down, Kodak EasyShare turned everything over to Snapfish.

 

Terri

 


From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2014 5:03 AM
To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Can anyone identify this fish?

 

Hi Terri,

 

I'm glad to see that the I.D. for your mystery (Synodontis) fish has been given.  But, I just wanted to add that when I tried accessing your link, that I got an message from Snapfish telling me -- "We're sorry, but the photo you're trying to view is a restricted access photo; it can only be viewed by friends who were given direct access by the photo owner."  Actually, this is the first time I've ever encountered "Snapfish."  I've never heard of this site before.  Do I need to join Snapfish to see any photos generated from there?

 

Ray

 

 

 



Group: AquaticLife Message: 56135 From: sevenspringss Date: 7/8/2014
Subject: Re: Can anyone identify this fish?
AOL Email
Terri,
 
Okay, thanks.   Another cyber mystery which shall remain so,
 
Ray
 
 
In a message dated 7/8/2014 8:59:28 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
 

You shouldn't have to join.  I don't know why it wouldn't let you view it.  I shared it with a link, so it should have taken you right to it.  Might have been just a glitch in their system at the time.  Snapfish is a photo share site generated by HP.  When they decided to shut it down, Kodak EasyShare turned everything over to Snapfish.

Terri


From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2014 5:03 AM
To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Can anyone identify this fish?

Hi Terri,

I'm glad to see that the I.D. for your mystery (Synodontis) fish has been given.  But, I just wanted to add that when I tried accessing your link, that I got an message from Snapfish telling me -- "We're sorry, but the photo you're trying to view is a restricted access photo; it can only be viewed by friends who were given direct access by the photo owner."  Actually, this is the first time I've ever encountered "Snapfish."  I've never heard of this site before.  Do I need to join Snapfish to see any photos generated from there?

Ray


Group: AquaticLife Message: 56136 From: Terri Ferrier Date: 7/8/2014
Subject: New Tank being delivered on Thursday!

On Sunday, there was a post on one of my local Facebook groups.  A woman posted that her parents were wanting to sell their 110 gal aquarium...the entire setup including the fish for $400!!  I messaged her immediately and told them to call me.  We arranged that I meet them today to see the tank and it's in great shape.  It's just becoming too much work for them in their older age and they are wanting to travel.  It includes the stand, canister filter system, bio wheel filter, a power head aerator and all the supplies they have on hand.  The fish also come with the tank.  There are 2 Plecos 8-10", 3 very large Severums (1 turquoise, 1 red and 1 gold) and 2 really large silver dollars. 

 

This was too good of a deal to pass up and I've made arrangements with the LFS owner who does aquarium maintenance.  He will go there and get the tank and the fish and bring it all here to my house, clean it and set it all up.  I plan to have him change out the gravel with sand and change the cling background on it. Then I'll figure out what I want to decorate it with.  They have a few large rocks in it now but this tank is very tall and other than those few rocks that sit pretty low to the gravel, there's nothing else....looks way out of balance.  Here's a link to a photo of it as it is now.  Not a great picture but the only one she posted.   I'll send new pics as soon as it's here's and done.

 

http://www5.snapfish.com/snapfish/slideshow/AlbumID=11641386026/PictureID=485879973026/a=18005526026_18005526026/otsc=SHR/otsi=SPIClink/COBRAND_NAME=snapfish/

 

 

Terri

Group: AquaticLife Message: 56137 From: sevenspringss Date: 7/9/2014
Subject: Re: New Tank being delivered on Thursday!
AOL Email
Terri,
 
Sounds like a nice buy, especially if you like large fish (the Plecos can about double their present size).  While you haven't mentioned it, I'm presuming this also includes the hood(?).  I would normally recommend sticking with gravel, but as you're not going to be able to grow plants in this tank anyway (since the Silver Dollars would have them for breakfast), it would appear that sand would be just as appropriate.  You're probably thinking about this item already, but some tall driftwood would go well here in filling the empty space as a decoration.  Usually, it needs to either be boiled or allowed to soak for a good while to remove the tannins, or the aquarium water will turn like tea -- clear but brown -- and become acid.  Should affect these fish, but most general hobbyists prefer colorless water. 
 
Yes, I receive another message from Snapfish telling me I can't access the site.  It's directly from Snapfish too, as contains the unique snapfish<<o>>< by hp logo in it's header.  Go figure!  Tried entering your link into my Firefox, but that didn't get me anywhere either, indicating it's not my browser that's at fault..  Then I went right to the Snapfish site but as soon as I did I saw it wanted me to either create an account or log in, as though I already had one, so couldn't get anywhere there either.
 
Best of luck with the set up.  Let us know if we can be of any assistance.
 
Ray
 
 
In a message dated 7/9/2014 1:08:00 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
 

On Sunday, there was a post on one of my local Facebook groups.  A woman posted that her parents were wanting to sell their 110 gal aquarium...the entire setup including the fish for $400!!  I messaged her immediately and told them to call me.  We arranged that I meet them today to see the tank and it's in great shape.  It's just becoming too much work for them in their older age and they are wanting to travel.  It includes the stand, canister filter system, bio wheel filter, a power head aerator and all the supplies they have on hand.  The fish also come with the tank.  There are 2 Plecos 8-10", 3 very large Severums (1 turquoise, 1 red and 1 gold) and 2 really large silver dollars. 

This was too good of a deal to pass up and I've made arrangements with the LFS owner who does aquarium maintenance.  He will go there and get the tank and the fish and bring it all here to my house, clean it and set it all up.  I plan to have him change out the gravel with sand and change the cling background on it. Then I'll figure out what I want to decorate it with.  They have a few large rocks in it now but this tank is very tall and other than those few rocks that sit pretty low to the gravel, there's nothing else....looks way out of balance.  Here's a link to a photo of it as it is now.  Not a great picture but the only one she posted.   I'll send new pics as soon as it's here's and done.

http://www5.snapfish.com/snapfish/slideshow/AlbumID=11641386026/PictureID=485879973026/a=18005526026_18005526026/otsc=SHR/otsi=SPIClink/COBRAND_NAME=snapfish/

Terri

Group: AquaticLife Message: 56138 From: Terri Ferrier Date: 7/9/2014
Subject: Re: New Tank being delivered on Thursday!
AOL Email

Yes, the light hood and glass cover are included.  If I do put any plants in there, they will be artificial.  I thought about some driftwood, but I've heard how it can discolor the water. In fact, the daughter of the people I'm getting the aquarium from has that problem even after doing the long soak.  She says her water is never clear.  I saw some tall spiny coral type rocks at the LFS the other day.  I'll be looking into that or something similar.   I really like the sand.  It seems much cleaner than the gravel, the fish show out more against it and I love the way the landscaping is always changing because of the fish moving it around.

 

As far as the large fish, they are really nice.  But I'm still undecided. Maybe if I had raised them up from a smaller size I would like them better.  Although they are gorgeous to look at, they struck me as kind of ho-hum when I first saw them.  Very little movement and no interaction between the fish  There's a good chance I can do a trade off with the LFS owner.  He sets up these huge tanks (180+ gal) around town in offices, hospitals, etc. and does the maintenance on them.  And he stocks them with some good size fish.

 

I contacted Snapfish and they do require you have an account to view the photos.  Learn something new everyday:(  I'll be looking for another photo share site that doesn't require an account for viewers and will be dumping Snapfish.

 

Terri

 


From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com ]
Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2014 6:20 AM
To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Tank being delivered on Thursday!

Terri,

 

Sounds like a nice buy, especially if you like large fish (the Plecos can about double their present size).  While you haven't mentioned it, I'm presuming this also includes the hood(?).  I would normally recommend sticking with gravel, but as you're not going to be able to grow plants in this tank anyway (since the Silver Dollars would have them for breakfast), it would appear that sand would be just as appropriate.  You're probably thinking about this item already, but some tall driftwood would go well here in filling the empty space as a decoration.  Usually, it needs to either be boiled or allowed to soak for a good while to remove the tannins, or the aquarium water will turn like tea -- clear but brown -- and become acid.  Should affect these fish, but most general hobbyists prefer colorless water. 

 

Yes, I receive another message from Snapfish telling me I can't access the site.  It's directly from Snapfish too, as contains the unique snapfish<<o>>< by hp logo in it's header.  Go figure!  Tried entering your link into my Firefox, but that didn't get me anywhere either, indicating it's not my browser that's at fault..  Then I went right to the Snapfish site but as soon as I did I saw it wanted me to either create an account or log in, as though I already had one, so couldn't get anywhere there either.

 

Best of luck with the set up.  Let us know if we can be of any assistance.

 

Ray

 

 

 


Group: AquaticLife Message: 56139 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 7/9/2014
Subject: Re: New Tank being delivered on Thursday!
Strange, every link posted to Snap Fish allows me to see the photo in question although they are also requesting me to sign up on the same page which I don't need to.

  John<o)))<


On 9 July 2014 20:21, 'Terri Ferrier' terriferrier@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

Yes, the light hood and glass cover are included.  If I do put any plants in there, they will be artificial.  I thought about some driftwood, but I've heard how it can discolor the water. In fact, the daughter of the people I'm getting the aquarium from has that problem even after doing the long soak.  She says her water is never clear.  I saw some tall spiny coral type rocks at the LFS the other day.  I'll be looking into that or something similar.   I really like the sand.  It seems much cleaner than the gravel, the fish show out more against it and I love the way the landscaping is always changing because of the fish moving it around.

 

As far as the large fish, they are really nice.  But I'm still undecided. Maybe if I had raised them up from a smaller size I would like them better.  Although they are gorgeous to look at, they struck me as kind of ho-hum when I first saw them.  Very little movement and no interaction between the fish  There's a good chance I can do a trade off with the LFS owner.  He sets up these huge tanks (180+ gal) around town in offices, hospitals, etc. and does the maintenance on them.  And he stocks them with some good size fish.

 

I contacted Snapfish and they do require you have an account to view the photos.  Learn something new everyday:(  I'll be looking for another photo share site that doesn't require an account for viewers and will be dumping Snapfish.

 

Terri

 


From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2014 6:20 AM
To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Tank being delivered on Thursday!

Terri,

 

Sounds like a nice buy, especially if you like large fish (the Plecos can about double their present size).  While you haven't mentioned it, I'm presuming this also includes the hood(?).  I would normally recommend sticking with gravel, but as you're not going to be able to grow plants in this tank anyway (since the Silver Dollars would have them for breakfast), it would appear that sand would be just as appropriate.  You're probably thinking about this item already, but some tall driftwood would go well here in filling the empty space as a decoration.  Usually, it needs to either be boiled or allowed to soak for a good while to remove the tannins, or the aquarium water will turn like tea -- clear but brown -- and become acid.  Should affect these fish, but most general hobbyists prefer colorless water. 

 

Yes, I receive another message from Snapfish telling me I can't access the site.  It's directly from Snapfish too, as contains the unique snapfish<<o>>< by hp logo in it's header.  Go figure!  Tried entering your link into my Firefox, but that didn't get me anywhere either, indicating it's not my browser that's at fault..  Then I went right to the Snapfish site but as soon as I did I saw it wanted me to either create an account or log in, as though I already had one, so couldn't get anywhere there either.

 

Best of luck with the set up.  Let us know if we can be of any assistance.

 

Ray

 

 

 



Group: AquaticLife Message: 56140 From: sevenspringss Date: 7/9/2014
Subject: Re: New Tank being delivered on Thursday!
AOL Email
Hi Terri,
 
Okay, with the hood and everything else included, that's a great deal -- not to yet mention the value of the fish you get with it.  Artificial plants would be the way to go, if you keep the Silver Dollar        s (& Severum).  With real plants, what the Silver Dollars don't eat, the Severums will uproot.  I've seen reports that plastic plants can sometimes injure fish during the night if they accidentally make contact with them.  While I was never for silk plants in an aquatic setting, mainly due to their being organic and assumedly prone to rot, I believe I noticed Dawn having them so they may be alright after all.  Maybe she can add to this part.
 
On the driftwood, it's usually recommended to boil it to remove the tannins.  While I did also say soaking it, that's more useful for smaller pieces.  Rocks are fine, but if they're really made of coral, they'll harden your water too much.  You should also avoid any rocks with limestone for the same reason.  By this, you can tell that I don't know specifically what you have in mind, but "spiny" doesn't sound very safe for the fish either, if they should accidentally bump into it at night.  No doubt you'll be able to do a fish trade.  As for there being no interaction, sometimes it's much better that way -- especially with Cichlids -- as at least they're not displaying aggression or territoriality.  
 
Ray
          
 
In a message dated 7/9/2014 4:35:49 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
 

Yes, the light hood and glass cover are included.  If I do put any plants in there, they will be artificial.  I thought about some driftwood, but I've heard how it can discolor the water. In fact, the daughter of the people I'm getting the aquarium from has that problem even after doing the long soak.  She says her water is never clear.  I saw some tall spiny coral type rocks at the LFS the other day.  I'll be looking into that or something similar.   I really like the sand.  It seems much cleaner than the gravel, the fish show out more against it and I love the way the landscaping is always changing because of the fish moving it around.

As far as the large fish, they are really nice.  But I'm still undecided. Maybe if I had raised them up from a smaller size I would like them better.  Although they are gorgeous to look at, they struck me as kind of ho-hum when I first saw them.  Very little movement and no interaction between the fish  There's a good chance I can do a trade off with the LFS owner.  He sets up these huge tanks (180+ gal) around town in offices, hospitals, etc. and does the maintenance on them.  And he stocks them with some good size fish.

I contacted Snapfish and they do require you have an account to view the photos.  Learn something new everyday:(  I'll be looking for another photo share site that doesn't require an account for viewers and will be dumping Snapfish.

Terri


From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com ]
Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2014 6:20 AM
To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Tank being delivered on Thursday!

Terri,

Sounds like a nice buy, especially if you like large fish (the Plecos can about double their present size).  While you haven't mentioned it, I'm presuming this also includes the hood(?).  I would normally recommend sticking with gravel, but as you're not going to be able to grow plants in this tank anyway (since the Silver Dollars would have them for breakfast), it would appear that sand would be just as appropriate.  You're probably thinking about this item already, but some tall driftwood would go well here in filling the empty space as a decoration.  Usually, it needs to either be boiled or allowed to soak for a good while to remove the tannins, or the aquarium water will turn like tea -- clear but brown -- and become acid.  Should affect these fish, but most general hobbyists prefer colorless water. 

Yes, I receive another message from Snapfish telling me I can't access the site.  It's directly from Snapfish too, as contains the unique snapfish<<o>>< by hp logo in it's header.  Go figure!  Tried entering your link into my Firefox, but that didn't get me anywhere either, indicating it's not my browser that's at fault..  Then I went right to the Snapfish site but as soon as I did I saw it wanted me to either create an account or log in, as though I already had one, so couldn't get anywhere there either.

Best of luck with the set up.  Let us know if we can be of any assistance.

Ray


Group: AquaticLife Message: 56141 From: Terri Ferrier Date: 7/9/2014
Subject: Re: New Tank being delivered on Thursday!
AOL Email

 

 


From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2014 5:34 PM
To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Tank being delivered on Thursday!

 




Hi Terri,

 

Okay, with the hood and everything else included, that's a great deal -- not to yet mention the value of the fish you get with it.  Artificial plants would be the way to go, if you keep the Silver Dollar        s (& Severum).  With real plants, what the Silver Dollars don't eat, the Severums will uproot.  I've seen reports that plastic plants can sometimes injure fish during the night if they accidentally make contact with them.  While I was never for silk plants in an aquatic setting, mainly due to their being organic and assumedly prone to rot, I believe I noticed Dawn having them so they may be alright after all.  Maybe she can add to this part.

 

On the driftwood, it's usually recommended to boil it to remove the tannins.  While I did also say soaking it, that's more useful for smaller pieces.  Rocks are fine, but if they're really made of coral, they'll harden your water too much.  You should also avoid any rocks with limestone for the same reason.  By this, you can tell that I don't know specifically what you have in mind, but "spiny" doesn't sound very safe for the fish either, if they should accidentally bump into it at night.  No doubt you'll be able to do a fish trade.  As for there being no interaction, sometimes it's much better that way -- especially with Cichlids -- as at least they're not displaying aggression or territoriality.  

 

Ray

          

 

In a message dated 7/9/2014 4:35:49 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

 

Yes, the light hood and glass cover are included.  If I do put any plants in there, they will be artificial.  I thought about some driftwood, but I've heard how it can discolor the water. In fact, the daughter of the people I'm getting the aquarium from has that problem even after doing the long soak.  She says her water is never clear.  I saw some tall spiny coral type rocks at the LFS the other day.  I'll be looking into that or something similar.   I really like the sand.  It seems much cleaner than the gravel, the fish show out more against it and I love the way the landscaping is always changing because of the fish moving it around.

As far as the large fish, they are really nice.  But I'm still undecided. Maybe if I had raised them up from a smaller size I would like them better.  Although they are gorgeous to look at, they struck me as kind of ho-hum when I first saw them.  Very little movement and no interaction between the fish  There's a good chance I can do a trade off with the LFS owner.  He sets up these huge tanks (180+ gal) around town in offices, hospitals, etc. and does the maintenance on them.  And he stocks them with some good size fish.

I contacted Snapfish and they do require you have an account to view the photos.  Learn something new everyday:(  I'll be looking for another photo share site that doesn't require an account for viewers and will be dumping Snapfish.

Terri


From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com ]
Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2014 6:20 AM
To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Tank being delivered on Thursday!

Terri,

Sounds like a nice buy, especially if you like large fish (the Plecos can about double their present size).  While you haven't mentioned it, I'm presuming this also includes the hood(?).  I would normally recommend sticking with gravel, but as you're not going to be able to grow plants in this tank anyway (since the Silver Dollars would have them for breakfast), it would appear that sand would be just as appropriate.  You're probably thinking about this item already, but some tall driftwood would go well here in filling the empty space as a decoration.  Usually, it needs to either be boiled or allowed to soak for a good while to remove the tannins, or the aquarium water will turn like tea -- clear but brown -- and become acid.  Should affect these fish, but most general hobbyists prefer colorless water. 

Yes, I receive another message from Snapfish telling me I can't access the site.  It's directly from Snapfish too, as contains the unique snapfish<<o>>< by hp logo in it's header.  Go figure!  Tried entering your link into my Firefox, but that didn't get me anywhere either, indicating it's not my browser that's at fault..  Then I went right to the Snapfish site but as soon as I did I saw it wanted me to either create an account or log in, as though I already had one, so couldn't get anywhere there either.

Best of luck with the set up.  Let us know if we can be of any assistance.

Ray


Group: AquaticLife Message: 56142 From: Terri Ferrier Date: 7/9/2014
Subject: Re: New Tank being delivered on Thursday!
AOL Email

I think spiny is the wrong word.  It's more like rocks or coral that resemble a leafless tree branch with a few limbs.  It's all smooth, no spines.  I'm just going to have to wait and see.  I'll probably change my mind a half dozen times before it's done:)

 

Terri


From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com ]
Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2014 5:34 PM
To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Tank being delivered on Thursday!

 

On the driftwood, it's usually recommended to boil it to remove the tannins.  While I did also say soaking it, that's more useful for smaller pieces.  Rocks are fine, but if they're really made of coral, they'll harden your water too much.  You should also avoid any rocks with limestone for the same reason.  By this, you can tell that I don't know specifically what you have in mind, but "spiny" doesn't sound very safe for the fish either, if they should accidentally bump into it at night.  No doubt you'll be able to do a fish trade.  As for there being no interaction, sometimes it's much better that way -- especially with Cichlids -- as at least they're not displaying aggression or territoriality.  

 

Ray

          

 

 

 

Group: AquaticLife Message: 56143 From: Terri Ferrier Date: 7/10/2014
Subject: New Tank

They had it set up by 1:00 today.  I ended up having to go into town so I stopped by the LFS store while I was there.  Picked up the driftwood and artificial plants and played around with it.

 

Here's a pic of the tank:

 

http://s1368.photobucket.com/user/Terri_Martin_Ferrier/media/NewTank_zps55ee8816.jpg.html?filters[user]=140808526&filters[recent]=1&sort=1&o=0

 

 

Terri

 

Group: AquaticLife Message: 56144 From: amejia1976 Date: 7/18/2014
Subject: Aquabid

Hello all


Wondering if anyone has any US based seller recommendations on aquabid? Looking to get some Saggitaria and some vallis for the replacement tank. From reading online seems these are fairly easy and easy to grow.


If none; what should I avoid?


My tank

65gl US

2x 39w T5 bulbs.


Dont know what my chem will be but it was 7.6ph, 0 Ammo, Nitra, and Nitri in the old tank.


Thanks


@lex

Group: AquaticLife Message: 56145 From: deenerzz Date: 7/18/2014
Subject: Re: Aquabid
Check the forums on aquabid. People on the forums can be pretty blunt when a seller is not up to par.
 
Mike


-----Original Message-----
From: amejia1976@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
To: AquaticLife <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Fri, Jul 18, 2014 7:39 pm
Subject: [AquaticLife] Aquabid

 
Hello all

Wondering if anyone has any US based seller recommendations on aquabid? Looking to get some Saggitaria and some vallis for the replacement tank. From reading online seems these are fairly easy and easy to grow.

If none; what should I avoid?

My tank
65gl US
2x 39w T5 bulbs.

Dont know what my chem will be but it was 7.6ph, 0 Ammo, Nitra, and Nitri in the old tank.

Thanks

@lex
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56146 From: amejia1976 Date: 7/18/2014
Subject: Re: New Freshwater tank
Sorry has taken so long to reply. Wanted to thank you all for the help; this was not as easy as I had expected.

Finally settled on a 65 from Marineland. Arrived yesterday. I am just needing to get the proper plumbing supplies as this is a predrilled unit.

Definitely looking forward to setting up my first NON newbie tank.

Thank you all for the knowledge.

@lex
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56147 From: amejia1976 Date: 7/18/2014
Subject: Re: Aquabid
Thanks Mike;

I always forget about them forums. 

@lex


---In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, <Deenerz@...> wrote :

Check the forums on aquabid. People on the forums can be pretty blunt when a seller is not up to par.
 
Mike


-----Original Message-----
From: amejia1976@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
To: AquaticLife <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Fri, Jul 18, 2014 7:39 pm
Subject: [AquaticLife] Aquabid

 
Hello all

Wondering if anyone has any US based seller recommendations on aquabid? Looking to get some Saggitaria and some vallis for the replacement tank. From reading online seems these are fairly easy and easy to grow.

If none; what should I avoid?

My tank
65gl US
2x 39w T5 bulbs.

Dont know what my chem will be but it was 7.6ph, 0 Ammo, Nitra, and Nitri in the old tank.

Thanks

@lex
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56148 From: sevenspringss Date: 7/19/2014
Subject: Re: Aquabid
AOL Email
@lex,
 
If you've never grown both of these plants together in one tank, as it seems to appear you've grown none, one thing you should avoid is attempting to grow Sagittaria and Vallisneria in the same tank.  Quite often, even if not 100% of the time, these two plant genera do not do well together.  Going back at least 80 years in the hobby, these two genera are described as being rivals, with both seldom prospering together.  This may be at least partially due to each preferring widely different water conditions. Each IS easy to grow, with Val preferring hard, alkaline water while Sag does best in soft, slightly acid water.
 
Getting to what your water chemistry was, unless you were making massive PWC fairly frequently, it's next to impossible to maintain a zero level of nitrate in a populated tank, as this is the end result of the nitrogen cycle in the aquarium.  To show a zero reading for nitrate would indicate that your tank was never cycled.  Very attentive maintenance with PWC's can often result in quite low nitrate readings though, even down to 5 ppm if one is diligent but this directly depends on the size of the bioload.  Your old tank's pH 7.6 would indicate that Vallisneria would be your better choice of aquarium plants, between the two genera you mentioned, as it's most likely your tap water is similar to this value.  
 
Ray
 
 
In a message dated 7/18/2014 10:39:21 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
 

Hello all


Wondering if anyone has any US based seller recommendations on aquabid? Looking to get some Saggitaria and some vallis for the replacement tank. From reading online seems these are fairly easy and easy to grow.


If none; what should I avoid?


My tank

65gl US

2x 39w T5 bulbs.


Dont know what my chem will be but it was 7.6ph, 0 Ammo, Nitra, and Nitri in the old tank.


Thanks


@lex

Group: AquaticLife Message: 56149 From: Jackie Date: 7/19/2014
Subject: Tank upgrade
Hello Everyone,

   My name is Jackie and I have a question, well maybe several. My existing tank is a 55 gal.(freshwater)  I want to go bigger and my husband thinks we should upgrade to a better system, ie "drilled tank". What are your thoughts on this type and what brands, sizes do you recommend? I'm considering a 75, 90 gal.

Thanks very much.

Jackie
LaGrange, IL.

Group: AquaticLife Message: 56150 From: oldies1433 Date: 7/20/2014
Subject: Re: Tank upgrade

Hello Jackie,

 

By having that 55 you have already crossed over into the world of larger aquariums.  Your next step will be even more thrilling because almost any other larger tank that you buy will be wider than the stock 55 at 13 inches.  This bigger width opens up many aquascaping possibilities.

 

Now as to your hubbys notion about drilled tanks.  Yes, he is correct, they will offer you more sophisticated filtering units to chose from BUT……………………….you are going to pay a lot of money just have two holes drilled into a box of water! <g> 

 

My point is that you can spend that money in a larger tank size if you like.  Holes aside, there are many different systems that you can opt for without the strain or expense of a drilled tank.  How about using a canister filter?  You did not mention your 55’s current set up but using a canister filter will allow you to get much closer to the rear wall where the tank is situated for a more pleasing look rather than being gawked out into the room.  I should mention also that size from here on up means a lot.  If you have the floor space available why not consider a longer length tank like a 125 which is 72” x 18 ½” x 20” high.  These make a fantastic display and offer your fish a larger swimming area.

 

There is a lot for you to consider; live plants, perhaps even larger fish like some of the bigger cichlids: you haven’t told us what you are currently keeping.  All of these things will affect the aquarium size you want.  Also when considering tank size is the finished look.  My current 75 gallon has a handmade cabinet stand base as well as a top canopy which hides the lighting units.  In all of my years of fish keeping this is a first for me along with a venture into the world of live plants.  Please keep us posted about your final decisions and keep enjoying our hobby.

 

bill in pa

 

 



On Sat, Jul 19, 2014 at 11:08 PM, Jackie actjak2@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

Hello Everyone,

   My name is Jackie and I have a question, well maybe several. My existing tank is a 55 gal.(freshwater)  I want to go bigger and my husband thinks we should upgrade to a better system, ie "drilled tank". What are your thoughts on this type and what brands, sizes do you recommend? I'm considering a 75, 90 gal.

Thanks very much.

Jackie
LaGrange, IL.


Group: AquaticLife Message: 56151 From: amejia1976 Date: 7/24/2014
Subject: Re: Aquabid
Good morning Ray;

Thanks for the info regarding the two of these not getting along. Kinda sad actually as I really like the carpet look the Sag has.

One error I did make was on the Nitrate; it was actually @ 80ppm after my Feb 2014 test.

Regards;

@lex
Orlando, Fl

---In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, <sevenspringss1@...> wrote :

AOL Email
@lex,
 
If you've never grown both of these plants together in one tank, as it seems to appear you've grown none, one thing you should avoid is attempting to grow Sagittaria and Vallisneria in the same tank.  Quite often, even if not 100% of the time, these two plant genera do not do well together.  Going back at least 80 years in the hobby, these two genera are described as being rivals, with both seldom prospering together.  This may be at least partially due to each preferring widely different water conditions. Each IS easy to grow, with Val preferring hard, alkaline water while Sag does best in soft, slightly acid water.
 
Getting to what your water chemistry was, unless you were making massive PWC fairly frequently, it's next to impossible to maintain a zero level of nitrate in a populated tank, as this is the end result of the nitrogen cycle in the aquarium.  To show a zero reading for nitrate would indicate that your tank was never cycled.  Very attentive maintenance with PWC's can often result in quite low nitrate readings though, even down to 5 ppm if one is diligent but this directly depends on the size of the bioload.  Your old tank's pH 7.6 would indicate that Vallisneria would be your better choice of aquarium plants, between the two genera you mentioned, as it's most likely your tap water is similar to this value.  
 
Ray
 
 
In a message dated 7/18/2014 10:39:21 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
 

Hello all


Wondering if anyone has any US based seller recommendations on aquabid? Looking to get some Saggitaria and some vallis for the replacement tank. From reading online seems these are fairly easy and easy to grow.


If none; what should I avoid?


My tank

65gl US

2x 39w T5 bulbs.


Dont know what my chem will be but it was 7.6ph, 0 Ammo, Nitra, and Nitri in the old tank.


Thanks


@lex

Group: AquaticLife Message: 56152 From: amejia1976 Date: 7/24/2014
Subject: Re: Tank upgrade
Good morning Jackie;

Just recently I actually needed to get my tank replaced. After much research I decided to go with a pre-drilled 65 from Marineland. Given that my current filter is a wet/dry I did not have to worry about getting a new filter. In your case you might end up needing to get a different filter should the one you have not be compatible with a pre-drilled unit.

As Bill said, you will pay a premium for pre-drilled; about 20% more expensive than standard. Shop around before you decide. I went to several Local Fish Stores (LFS); one of them wanted to charge $50 for the plumbing kit that was actually included in the tank I purchased.

What also made a difference for me was that with the pre-drilled the plumbing can all be kept in the tank and be more discrete. For example; the heater I have does not fit in the sump I have, so I had it on the back wall of the old tank. With the new tank this will be hidden from view by the inside corner overflow.

One other thing; the pictures at the link above are misleading. The corner overflow is much larger than pictured, but again, as it is inside is still better for me.

Most of the members here recommended I get a tank from the large brands; Marineland/Perfecto and Aqueon were tops. There are some of other brands out there but price wise they are pretty much the same; this is one item where brand might be worth it. Marineland/Perfecto include the plumbing kit in all the CornerFlow units; don't know about the other ones.

Regards;

@lex
Orlando, Fl


---In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, <db1433@...> wrote :

Hello Jackie,

 

By having that 55 you have already crossed over into the world of larger aquariums.  Your next step will be even more thrilling because almost any other larger tank that you buy will be wider than the stock 55 at 13 inches.  This bigger width opens up many aquascaping possibilities.

 

Now as to your hubbys notion about drilled tanks.  Yes, he is correct, they will offer you more sophisticated filtering units to chose from BUT……………………….you are going to pay a lot of money just have two holes drilled into a box of water! <g> 

 

My point is that you can spend that money in a larger tank size if you like.  Holes aside, there are many different systems that you can opt for without the strain or expense of a drilled tank.  How about using a canister filter?  You did not mention your 55’s current set up but using a canister filter will allow you to get much closer to the rear wall where the tank is situated for a more pleasing look rather than being gawked out into the room.  I should mention also that size from here on up means a lot.  If you have the floor space available why not consider a longer length tank like a 125 which is 72” x 18 ½” x 20” high.  These make a fantastic display and offer your fish a larger swimming area.

 

There is a lot for you to consider; live plants, perhaps even larger fish like some of the bigger cichlids: you haven’t told us what you are currently keeping.  All of these things will affect the aquarium size you want.  Also when considering tank size is the finished look.  My current 75 gallon has a handmade cabinet stand base as well as a top canopy which hides the lighting units.  In all of my years of fish keeping this is a first for me along with a venture into the world of live plants.  Please keep us posted about your final decisions and keep enjoying our hobby.

 

bill in pa

 

 



On Sat, Jul 19, 2014 at 11:08 PM, Jackie actjak2@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

Hello Everyone,

   My name is Jackie and I have a question, well maybe several. My existing tank is a 55 gal.(freshwater)  I want to go bigger and my husband thinks we should upgrade to a better system, ie "drilled tank". What are your thoughts on this type and what brands, sizes do you recommend? I'm considering a 75, 90 gal.

Thanks very much.

Jackie
LaGrange, IL.


Group: AquaticLife Message: 56153 From: sevenspringss Date: 7/24/2014
Subject: Re: Aquabid
AOL Email
Good morning @lex,
 
Pertaining to the level of your nitrate, oddly when I first opened your email, it appeared as 8 o(small letter "o") and ppm, as one unbroken term with no spacing.  When I hit reply to be able to type this, it changed to 8 0(zero) and then ppm, as one unbroken term with no spacing.  I'm now assuming it was 80 ppm (please correct me if I'm wrong).  If it was 8 ppm, with no "o" or "0" then that would have been great.  Although (as you may already be aware), 80 ppm is much higher than the generally accepted 40 ppm upper limit permitted preferred as water being relatively free of impurities, not causing stress on the fish.  An aquarium having a nitrate level twice as high as the 40 ppm recognized max should have had more (or larger) PWC's done each week.
 
While your tap water has a pH of 7.6, it's still worth trying to grow Sag if your hardness isn't too high.  I've seen some very nice looking Amazon Sword plants grown in moderately alkaline water when the hardness wasn't excessive, and these plants have similar requirements to Sag.  The Val - Sag rival conclusion isn't written in stone but is only a recommendation to be aware of -- depending on the water conditions.
 
Ray
 
 
In a message dated 7/24/2014 7:06:31 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
 

Good morning Ray;


Thanks for the info regarding the two of these not getting along. Kinda sad actually as I really like the carpet look the Sag has.

One error I did make was on the Nitrate; it was actually @ 80ppm after my Feb 2014 test.

Regards;

@lex
Orlando, Fl

---In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, <sevenspringss1@...> wrote :

@lex,
 
If you've never grown both of these plants together in one tank, as it seems to appear you've grown none, one thing you should avoid is attempting to grow Sagittaria and Vallisneria in the same tank.  Quite often, even if not 100% of the time, these two plant genera do not do well together.  Going back at least 80 years in the hobby, these two genera are described as being rivals, with both seldom prospering together.  This may be at least partially due to each preferring widely different water conditions. Each IS easy to grow, with Val preferring hard, alkaline water while Sag does best in soft, slightly acid water.
 
Getting to what your water chemistry was, unless you were making massive PWC fairly frequently, it's next to impossible to maintain a zero level of nitrate in a populated tank, as this is the end result of the nitrogen cycle in the aquarium.  To show a zero reading for nitrate would indicate that your tank was never cycled.  Very attentive maintenance with PWC's can often result in quite low nitrate readings though, even down to 5 ppm if one is diligent but this directly depends on the size of the bioload.  Your old tank's pH 7.6 would indicate that Vallisneria would be your better choice of aquarium plants, between the two genera you mentioned, as it's most likely your tap water is similar to this value.  
 
Ray
 
 
In a message dated 7/18/2014 10:39:21 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
 

Hello all


Wondering if anyone has any US based seller recommendations on aquabid? Looking to get some Saggitaria and some vallis for the replacement tank. From reading online seems these are fairly easy and easy to grow.


If none; what should I avoid?


My tank

65gl US

2x 39w T5 bulbs.


Dont know what my chem will be but it was 7.6ph, 0 Ammo, Nitra, and Nitri in the old tank.


Thanks


@lex

Group: AquaticLife Message: 56154 From: amejia1976 Date: 7/24/2014
Subject: Re: Aquabid
Ray;

So my last tests were before the PWC which I did about 75% as my Mopany had a large release of tannins this time around.

Yes, the Nitrate was eighty ppm. Guess I will spell it out next time; thanks alot Yahoo!

My kH was six (6)
My gH was ten (10)

Hopefully the new setup will be as stable as the last one. My chem barely changed in 3 years.

I will not do the plants until I have had the new setup running at least a month to let it all settle down. Hopefully I can get some decent specimens that will do good.

@lex
Orlando, Fl



---In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, <sevenspringss1@...> wrote :

AOL Email
Good morning @lex,
 
Pertaining to the level of your nitrate, oddly when I first opened your email, it appeared as 8 o(small letter "o") and ppm, as one unbroken term with no spacing.  When I hit reply to be able to type this, it changed to 8 0(zero) and then ppm, as one unbroken term with no spacing.  I'm now assuming it was 80 ppm (please correct me if I'm wrong).  If it was 8 ppm, with no "o" or "0" then that would have been great.  Although (as you may already be aware), 80 ppm is much higher than the generally accepted 40 ppm upper limit permitted preferred as water being relatively free of impurities, not causing stress on the fish.  An aquarium having a nitrate level twice as high as the 40 ppm recognized max should have had more (or larger) PWC's done each week.
 
While your tap water has a pH of 7.6, it's still worth trying to grow Sag if your hardness isn't too high.  I've seen some very nice looking Amazon Sword plants grown in moderately alkaline water when the hardness wasn't excessive, and these plants have similar requirements to Sag.  The Val - Sag rival conclusion isn't written in stone but is only a recommendation to be aware of -- depending on the water conditions.
 
Ray
 
 
In a message dated 7/24/2014 7:06:31 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
 

Good morning Ray;


Thanks for the info regarding the two of these not getting along. Kinda sad actually as I really like the carpet look the Sag has.

One error I did make was on the Nitrate; it was actually @ 80ppm after my Feb 2014 test.

Regards;

@lex
Orlando, Fl

---In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, <sevenspringss1@...> wrote :

@lex,
 
If you've never grown both of these plants together in one tank, as it seems to appear you've grown none, one thing you should avoid is attempting to grow Sagittaria and Vallisneria in the same tank.  Quite often, even if not 100% of the time, these two plant genera do not do well together.  Going back at least 80 years in the hobby, these two genera are described as being rivals, with both seldom prospering together.  This may be at least partially due to each preferring widely different water conditions. Each IS easy to grow, with Val preferring hard, alkaline water while Sag does best in soft, slightly acid water.
 
Getting to what your water chemistry was, unless you were making massive PWC fairly frequently, it's next to impossible to maintain a zero level of nitrate in a populated tank, as this is the end result of the nitrogen cycle in the aquarium.  To show a zero reading for nitrate would indicate that your tank was never cycled.  Very attentive maintenance with PWC's can often result in quite low nitrate readings though, even down to 5 ppm if one is diligent but this directly depends on the size of the bioload.  Your old tank's pH 7.6 would indicate that Vallisneria would be your better choice of aquarium plants, between the two genera you mentioned, as it's most likely your tap water is similar to this value.  
 
Ray
 
 
In a message dated 7/18/2014 10:39:21 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
 

Hello all


Wondering if anyone has any US based seller recommendations on aquabid? Looking to get some Saggitaria and some vallis for the replacement tank. From reading online seems these are fairly easy and easy to grow.


If none; what should I avoid?


My tank

65gl US

2x 39w T5 bulbs.


Dont know what my chem will be but it was 7.6ph, 0 Ammo, Nitra, and Nitri in the old tank.


Thanks


@lex

Group: AquaticLife Message: 56155 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 7/24/2014
Subject: Re: Tank upgrade
Hi Alex & Bill,

  I'm not entirely sure what a 'Drilled Tank' is-could you explain please? I'm guessing it's something common in the States but coming from the UK I have not come across that term before.

  John<o)))<


On 24 July 2014 12:25, amejia1976@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

Good morning Jackie;


Just recently I actually needed to get my tank replaced. After much research I decided to go with a pre-drilled 65 from Marineland. Given that my current filter is a wet/dry I did not have to worry about getting a new filter. In your case you might end up needing to get a different filter should the one you have not be compatible with a pre-drilled unit.

As Bill said, you will pay a premium for pre-drilled; about 20% more expensive than standard. Shop around before you decide. I went to several Local Fish Stores (LFS); one of them wanted to charge $50 for the plumbing kit that was actually included in the tank I purchased.

What also made a difference for me was that with the pre-drilled the plumbing can all be kept in the tank and be more discrete. For example; the heater I have does not fit in the sump I have, so I had it on the back wall of the old tank. With the new tank this will be hidden from view by the inside corner overflow.

One other thing; the pictures at the link above are misleading. The corner overflow is much larger than pictured, but again, as it is inside is still better for me.

Most of the members here recommended I get a tank from the large brands; Marineland/Perfecto and Aqueon were tops. There are some of other brands out there but price wise they are pretty much the same; this is one item where brand might be worth it. Marineland/Perfecto include the plumbing kit in all the CornerFlow units; don't know about the other ones.

Regards;

@lex
Orlando, Fl


---In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, <db1433@...> wrote :

Hello Jackie,

 

By having that 55 you have already crossed over into the world of larger aquariums.  Your next step will be even more thrilling because almost any other larger tank that you buy will be wider than the stock 55 at 13 inches.  This bigger width opens up many aquascaping possibilities.

 

Now as to your hubbys notion about drilled tanks.  Yes, he is correct, they will offer you more sophisticated filtering units to chose from BUT……………………….you are going to pay a lot of money just have two holes drilled into a box of water! <g> 

 

My point is that you can spend that money in a larger tank size if you like.  Holes aside, there are many different systems that you can opt for without the strain or expense of a drilled tank.  How about using a canister filter?  You did not mention your 55’s current set up but using a canister filter will allow you to get much closer to the rear wall where the tank is situated for a more pleasing look rather than being gawked out into the room.  I should mention also that size from here on up means a lot.  If you have the floor space available why not consider a longer length tank like a 125 which is 72” x 18 ½” x 20” high.  These make a fantastic display and offer your fish a larger swimming area.

 

There is a lot for you to consider; live plants, perhaps even larger fish like some of the bigger cichlids: you haven’t told us what you are currently keeping.  All of these things will affect the aquarium size you want.  Also when considering tank size is the finished look.  My current 75 gallon has a handmade cabinet stand base as well as a top canopy which hides the lighting units.  In all of my years of fish keeping this is a first for me along with a venture into the world of live plants.  Please keep us posted about your final decisions and keep enjoying our hobby.

 

bill in pa

 

 



On Sat, Jul 19, 2014 at 11:08 PM, Jackie actjak2@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

Hello Everyone,

   My name is Jackie and I have a question, well maybe several. My existing tank is a 55 gal.(freshwater)  I want to go bigger and my husband thinks we should upgrade to a better system, ie "drilled tank". What are your thoughts on this type and what brands, sizes do you recommend? I'm considering a 75, 90 gal.

Thanks very much.

Jackie
LaGrange, IL.



Group: AquaticLife Message: 56156 From: oldies1433 Date: 7/24/2014
Subject: Re: Tank upgrade

No worries Si​mmonds John; its good to hear from you  It means just exactly that, they drill holes in the bottom of an aquarium to allow for, usually plastic tubing but sometimes, rigid piping to be used for all connections.  This is then coupled to some very sophisticated filter equipment.  Here is a good example: http://www.lifegardaquatics.com/

 

These folks make some of the best on the market.  You will notice that some of the fittings look much like standard plumbing parts, some of them are.  Their modules hooked together will heat, filter, apply UV if desired; just about anything dealing with moving water.  Of course, you have to have a wallet that can handle the price but there you have it. <g> 


Many times too, these units are powered by large mag drive pumps which usually push or pull the aquarium water through themselves to accomplish this task.  Sometimes there may be also a need for drilling holes in the upper rear glass or acrylic plastic tank for a product called a refugiums.

 

Many of our salt water friends utilize these for hook ups such as this:

http://www.nano-reef.com/topic/195359-daveys-15long-rimless-peninsula/


Their purpose as I understand it, is to allow for extra or additional denitrification, circulation, surface agitation, oxygenation.  Tropical marine refugiums often contain live rock and live sand, macroalgae to accomplish this process.

 

bill in pa



On Thu, Jul 24, 2014 at 8:05 PM, SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

Hi Alex & Bill,

  I'm not entirely sure what a 'Drilled Tank' is-could you explain please? I'm guessing it's something common in the States but coming from the UK I have not come across that term before.

  John<o)))<


On 24 July 2014 12:25, amejia1976@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

Good morning Jackie;


Just recently I actually needed to get my tank replaced. After much research I decided to go with a pre-drilled 65 from Marineland. Given that my current filter is a wet/dry I did not have to worry about getting a new filter. In your case you might end up needing to get a different filter should the one you have not be compatible with a pre-drilled unit.

As Bill said, you will pay a premium for pre-drilled; about 20% more expensive than standard. Shop around before you decide. I went to several Local Fish Stores (LFS); one of them wanted to charge $50 for the plumbing kit that was actually included in the tank I purchased.

What also made a difference for me was that with the pre-drilled the plumbing can all be kept in the tank and be more discrete. For example; the heater I have does not fit in the sump I have, so I had it on the back wall of the old tank. With the new tank this will be hidden from view by the inside corner overflow.

One other thing; the pictures at the link above are misleading. The corner overflow is much larger than pictured, but again, as it is inside is still better for me.

Most of the members here recommended I get a tank from the large brands; Marineland/Perfecto and Aqueon were tops. There are some of other brands out there but price wise they are pretty much the same; this is one item where brand might be worth it. Marineland/Perfecto include the plumbing kit in all the CornerFlow units; don't know about the other ones.

Regards;

@lex
Orlando, Fl


---In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, <db1433@...> wrote :

Hello Jackie,

 

By having that 55 you have already crossed over into the world of larger aquariums.  Your next step will be even more thrilling because almost any other larger tank that you buy will be wider than the stock 55 at 13 inches.  This bigger width opens up many aquascaping possibilities.

 

Now as to your hubbys notion about drilled tanks.  Yes, he is correct, they will offer you more sophisticated filtering units to chose from BUT……………………….you are going to pay a lot of money just have two holes drilled into a box of water! <g> 

 

My point is that you can spend that money in a larger tank size if you like.  Holes aside, there are many different systems that you can opt for without the strain or expense of a drilled tank.  How about using a canister filter?  You did not mention your 55’s current set up but using a canister filter will allow you to get much closer to the rear wall where the tank is situated for a more pleasing look rather than being gawked out into the room.  I should mention also that size from here on up means a lot.  If you have the floor space available why not consider a longer length tank like a 125 which is 72” x 18 ½” x 20” high.  These make a fantastic display and offer your fish a larger swimming area.

 

There is a lot for you to consider; live plants, perhaps even larger fish like some of the bigger cichlids: you haven’t told us what you are currently keeping.  All of these things will affect the aquarium size you want.  Also when considering tank size is the finished look.  My current 75 gallon has a handmade cabinet stand base as well as a top canopy which hides the lighting units.  In all of my years of fish keeping this is a first for me along with a venture into the world of live plants.  Please keep us posted about your final decisions and keep enjoying our hobby.

 

bill in pa

 

 



On Sat, Jul 19, 2014 at 11:08 PM, Jackie actjak2@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

Hello Everyone,

   My name is Jackie and I have a question, well maybe several. My existing tank is a 55 gal.(freshwater)  I want to go bigger and my husband thinks we should upgrade to a better system, ie "drilled tank". What are your thoughts on this type and what brands, sizes do you recommend? I'm considering a 75, 90 gal.

Thanks very much.

Jackie
LaGrange, IL.




Group: AquaticLife Message: 56157 From: amejia1976 Date: 7/24/2014
Subject: Re: Tank upgrade
Hello John;

Not sure how long they have been around as up until now I had no need for a new tank. Taking a wild guess is that they are more often used with saltwater.

First time I went to one of the LFS's around here he asked what I wanted. One of the options he mentioned was this drilled tank. 

Simply put the tank has been drilled on the bottom with several holes that are used for the plumbing. Here is the one purchased. This one is a corner-flow made by Marineland; a popular aquatic manufacturer here in the states. They are called this because the overflow boxes are inside and in the corners instead of the bulky outside overflow boxes used by many wet/dry systems. Some bigger tanks can have a "cornerflow" in each side. Those will have 4 holes; 2 for return and 2 for overflow.

I uploaded a few pictures to the folder named AMejia1976 with pictures of the one I purchased.

Here is a link to a picture of this type been used with a XP filter and UV setup. You can do a Google search for pre drilled aquariums and see many articles about it.

While they are more expensive I find them more appealing and convenient for me as I already have a wet/dry system. For those with hang on back filters they are not useful.

Hope this helps a bit. While I have had my fish for a while now this is completely new.

Best Regards;

@lex
Orlando, Fl



Group: AquaticLife Message: 56158 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 7/25/2014
Subject: Re: Tank upgrade
Thank both for your interesting responses & looking at your examples I realise I must also have a pre drilled tank although I didn't know it by that name.  It's a 100 UK gallon acrylic tank with corner weirs that drop through the base via hard plumbing into my wet/dry.

  John<o)))<


On 25 July 2014 02:42, amejia1976@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

Hello John;


Not sure how long they have been around as up until now I had no need for a new tank. Taking a wild guess is that they are more often used with saltwater.

First time I went to one of the LFS's around here he asked what I wanted. One of the options he mentioned was this drilled tank. 

Simply put the tank has been drilled on the bottom with several holes that are used for the plumbing. Here is the one purchased. This one is a corner-flow made by Marineland; a popular aquatic manufacturer here in the states. They are called this because the overflow boxes are inside and in the corners instead of the bulky outside overflow boxes used by many wet/dry systems. Some bigger tanks can have a "cornerflow" in each side. Those will have 4 holes; 2 for return and 2 for overflow.

I uploaded a few pictures to the folder named AMejia1976 with pictures of the one I purchased.

Here is a link to a picture of this type been used with a XP filter and UV setup. You can do a Google search for pre drilled aquariums and see many articles about it.

While they are more expensive I find them more appealing and convenient for me as I already have a wet/dry system. For those with hang on back filters they are not useful.

Hope this helps a bit. While I have had my fish for a while now this is completely new.

Best Regards;

@lex
Orlando, Fl




Group: AquaticLife Message: 56159 From: Alex Mejia Date: 7/25/2014
Subject: Re: Tank upgrade

Lol...

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android



From: SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>;
To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>;
Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Tank upgrade
Sent: Fri, Jul 25, 2014 10:48:58 PM

 

Thank both for your interesting responses & looking at your examples I realise I must also have a pre drilled tank although I didn't know it by that name.  It's a 100 UK gallon acrylic tank with corner weirs that drop through the base via hard plumbing into my wet/dry.

  John<o)))<


On 25 July 2014 02:42, amejia1976@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

Hello John;


Not sure how long they have been around as up until now I had no need for a new tank. Taking a wild guess is that they are more often used with saltwater.

First time I went to one of the LFS's around here he asked what I wanted. One of the options he mentioned was this drilled tank. 

Simply put the tank has been drilled on the bottom with several holes that are used for the plumbing. Here is the one purchased. This one is a corner-flow made by Marineland; a popular aquatic manufacturer here in the states. They are called this because the overflow boxes are inside and in the corners instead of the bulky outside overflow boxes used by many wet/dry systems. Some bigger tanks can have a "cornerflow" in each side. Those will have 4 holes; 2 for return and 2 for overflow.

I uploaded a few pictures to the folder named AMejia1976 with pictures of the one I purchased.

Here is a link to a picture of this type been used with a XP filter and UV setup. You can do a Google search for pre drilled aquariums and see many articles about it.

While they are more expensive I find them more appealing and convenient for me as I already have a wet/dry system. For those with hang on back filters they are not useful.

Hope this helps a bit. While I have had my fish for a while now this is completely new.

Best Regards;

@lex
Orlando, Fl




Group: AquaticLife Message: 56160 From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c Date: 7/27/2014
Subject: Re: Aquabid
Just an observation for you to mull over... more than once over the yrs I have successfully grown needle sag in brackish water tanks.  Being brackish, using marine salt to raise salinity, also means hard water, pH of up to 8.2 and the needle sag did great.  Anubias also did well in those conditions long term.

A nitrate level of 80 can cause harm to any plant... One of the few plants that can thrive in high nitrate for extended periods of time and help to lower the nitrate level is hornwort.  I have had great success over the yrs with this, too, along with naja grass.  Those are 2 of my favorites for heavily stocked tanks or conditions with high waste output from the fish.  They both do a great job of utilizing nitrate and grow quickly in those conditions if they are given enough light... especially in harder water. 
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56161 From: sevenspringss Date: 7/28/2014
Subject: Re: Aquabid
AOL Email
The Sagittaria, to be grown in soft acid water is a general recommendation.  This is not to say that Sag can't be grown in alkaline water, or even in hard alkaline water, but many species of Sag commonly grown in the aquarium do prefer soft acid water.  As was stated, the Val -- Sag rivalry conclusion isn't written in stone, meaning at least some Sag species can be grown in harder water and at higher pH values.  For this same reason, it was replied to Alex (@lex) that it's worth a try to grow Sag at his pH 7.6 conditions.  I've never had any of the Sag species I've grown do nearly as well in alkaline water as it did in soft acid water, even though I've done it at times.  My Sag gigantea (sinensis), S. subulata and S. natans, as several species in particular, absolutely flourished in soft acid water over many years when I grew them under these conditions, frequently sending up small white flowers above the surface each Summer.  Even my S. microfolia did extremely well in soft acid water, albeit I never had it flower.    
 
The conclusion of Val vs. Sag not doing well together was Written by Dr. William T. Innes, in his "Exotic Aquarium Fishes" First Edition (1935) and continued in every edition up through the final 19th Edition (1956) and the Revised 19th Editions (of 1957 & 1964).  Of Sagittaria, Dr. Innes wrote; "All these truly aquatic species of Sagittaria throw up summer stalks which develop long, lanced leaves above the water.  Flower stems bear trusses of pretty cup-shaped white flowers with a yellow ball in the center.  Sagittaria and Vallisneria are rivals.  Both seldom prosper together."  I'm sure Dr, Innes had good reason to state in his book what he did about these two plants.  I don't profess to know more about these two aquatic plants than Dr. Innes (the "Father of the Aquarium Hobby") did, and prefer to believe what he said about these plants, as coinciding with my experiences with them.  When the copyright for Innes' book ran out and Dr. Herbert Axelrod took it over for printing by his TFH Corp., he didn't change one word of what Innes wrote about these plants, even though other parts of the book were further revised.  It would appear just by this, that the information passed on to us on these two plants by both prominent authors would be best heeded.      
 
Yes, Hornwort is excellent for utilizing nitrate and thriving in a higher concentration of it.  I used to sell lots of it particularly for Koi ponds when I was managing Waterford (Tricker's) Water Gardens.  This plant does exceptionally well at absorbing dissolved organic wastes in any form, and helps keeps ammonia to an absolute minimum even if one's cycle has been interrupted.  Najas grass is great for this purpose too; I keep some in a number of my tanks at all times, not necessarily for keeping the DOS down in every situation but also as a spawning medium for Killifish in many of those tank which I grow it in.  Hornwort definitely needs lots of light, which is not a problem in the pond.  Najas ("Guppy Grass"), on the other hand, does real well in low light -- not quite as well in low light as does Java Moss, but very well; it's reputed for this.  Much more light, and it can literally start growing out of the tank and crowding the fish of swimming space, but it's not adverse to stronger lighting.  At those times I bag some of it up and distribute it at my local fish club.  This (Najas) is a plant that grows equally well in hard or soft water, whereas I've noted that Hornwort prefers hard water.
 
Ray
                 
 
In a message dated 7/28/2014 1:43:01 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes: 

Just an observation for you to mull over... more than once over the yrs I have successfully grown needle sag in brackish water tanks.  Being brackish, using marine salt to raise salinity, also means hard water, pH of up to 8.2 and the needle sag did great.  Anubias also did well in those conditions long term.

A nitrate level of 80 can cause harm to any plant... One of the few plants that can thrive in high nitrate for extended periods of time and help to lower the nitrate level is hornwort.  I have had great success over the yrs with this, too, along with naja grass.  Those are 2 of my favorites for heavily stocked tanks or conditions with high waste output from the fish.  They both do a great job of utilizing nitrate and grow quickly in those conditions if they are given enough light... especially in harder water. 

Group: AquaticLife Message: 56162 From: Angela Cancilla Herschel Date: 7/28/2014
Subject: Aquatic feeder "invisible"
Aquatic feeder
I thought this was interesting and wondered what others have used ..this is by ;
Animal Equipment by Stoney, LLC
_______________________________________________
Ciao, Angela Cancilla Herschel in SoCal

Being kind is more important ..than being important. ~

California Wildlife Center,volunteer wildlife warrior ~
www.cawildlife.org
Amazon wish list;  : http://amzn.com/w/2432ONM8ST9AK
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56163 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 7/28/2014
Subject: Re: Aquatic feeder "invisible"
Hi Angela,

  I've never seen one of those before-thanks fro sharing. It seems a very effective way of getting food accurately to a particular individual.  I've seen a perspex tube used in a similar way to drop pellets at any given point in the tank.

  John<o)))<


On 28 July 2014 16:59, Angela Cancilla Herschel angelasfeathers@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

Aquatic feeder
I thought this was interesting and wondered what others have used ..this is by ;
Animal Equipment by Stoney, LLC
_______________________________________________
Ciao, Angela Cancilla Herschel in SoCal

Being kind is more important ..than being important. ~

California Wildlife Center,volunteer wildlife warrior ~
www.cawildlife.org
Amazon wish list;  : http://amzn.com/w/2432ONM8ST9AK


Group: AquaticLife Message: 56164 From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c Date: 7/29/2014
Subject: Re: Aquabid
I will just point out that Axelrod was not a botanist, and thus it makes perfect sense to me that he would not have changed plant info in that particular publication for that very reason alone... he was an ichthyologist, thus he updated info about fish, which had nothing to do with plants.  There are a lot of other authors out there, some with degrees or backgrounds in botany, many with more current data than 1964 who see things a bit differently, so which author each of us chooses to trust is entirely our own personal opinion.  I can pick up 10 different books, by 10 different authors, all the same topic, and none of them agrees with the others 100%.


I was simply citing my own experience with one of the species of sag plants because I felt it was relevant to the conversation.  Yrs ago at the store we grew various species of sag in the tap water, pH of 7.6 - 7.8 and they all thrived, some of them even flowered.  We did the same thing with the vals and got the same results.  At various times we had both val and sag species sharing 40 gallon tanks and both thrived.  Most common when we did that was the needle sag mixed into the same tank as the jungle val.  We had some beautiful display tanks that were set up that way for yrs, running basic tap water, without any plant issues.

One of the things I also noted with the val and sag species that we kept in the soft water (pH 6.6 - 7.0) tanks was that temperature played a bigger role in whether they thrived or not than pH did.  Both plants did better in cooler temps (78 - 75) than they did in the warmer temps of our discus tanks (82 - 86), with the exception of the contortion val.. which seemed to thrive at nearly all temps we attempted to keep it at.  The val plants tended to shed more in the warmer water whereas the sag tended to have a less healthy root structure until it just disappeared entirely.

Dawn 
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56165 From: amphibian_ca Date: 7/30/2014
Subject: Re: Aquabid
I'll just toss in my observations if I may, concerning Sagittaria/Vallisneria and the pH issue.

The matter of these two genera not doing well in the same aquarium is held by some, and the origin of this thinking has been explained.  This view does not seem to be held by most sources, and Dawn's experience shows it is not always applicable if at all.  I've not tried the two together.

To the more important issue, pH and GH.  The pH is actually of much less relevance that GH when it comes to plants [as indeed with fish, but that is for another topic].  I do not have good luck with Vallisneria, because my water is very soft; almost zero out of the tap.  Vallisneria does better in moderately hard to hard water, which is not surprising since it is native to one (or more) of the African rift lakes, and that is about as hard as freshwater gets for aquarium fish.  Vallisneria needs the "hard"minerals, particularly calcium, and in very soft water these have to be supplemented.  It needs good light, moderate to bright, also not surprising since it is a fast growing plant and such plants need more light and nutrients to photosynthesize full out.  Vallisneria also readily assimilates carbon from bicarbonates (as opposed to CO2), another reason they thrive in harder water.  They tolerate brackish water provided the salt content is not too high.

Vallisneria is distributed in all tropical and subtropical areas worldwide; in some places, such as the continental United States, they extend into the temperate zone. All species are dioecious, having male and female plants that both produce flowers. The female flowers grow on long scapes and float on the surface; male flowers are produced at the base of the male plant and become detached and float to the surface and open. The water then carries the pollen to the female flower. Seeds are not produced in aquaria, and the plants spread by numerous daughter plants that arise from runners. These daughter plants may be left to form an extensive mat of plants or separated once they have developed several leaves and roots and planted in another location.  This dioecious aspect is one reason the nomenclature of the genus has been so confused, since it is only via the flowers that species can be accurately identified.  Recent work (Les, et al. 2008) using phylogenetics has resulted in 12 species being identified by molecular data, and an additional 2 to 3 species by morphological differences within groups that were invariant at the molecular level. Two new Vallisneria species (V. australis, V. erecta) are formally described in the same study.

Vallisneria species are quite similar in appearance to Sagittaria. The leaves of the latter are usually a darker green and more stiff, pointed, and have a different vein structure; their roots are whiter and thicker than Vallisneria.  They are in different botanical families so not closely related.  Sagitarria is closely related to the sword plants in the genera Echinodorus and Helanthium [the chain swords] in the same family, Alismataceae.  The latter two genera are confined to the New World, but Sagitarria has species in both hemispheres.  All of these plants will reproduce vegetatively in the aquarium; sexual reproduction via flowering is rare, and often requires emersed cultivation in the case of Sagittaria, Echinodorus and Helanthium since these are all marsh or bog plants and not true aquatics.  But they all adapt very well to submersed cultivation.  Soft water is not a problem for these plants, and indeed they naturally occur in areas with very soft water.  However, the total lack of "hard" minerals will cause problems especially for the larger Echinodorus species.

I see I've digressed a bit, but perhaps (hopefully) some will find the information of interest.

Byron.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56166 From: jett07002 Date: 7/31/2014
Subject: Re: Aquabid

Thank you, Byron.   Very interesting.  


When my tanks were set up, Vals and Sags were my favorite plants for some reason.  I had them in almost all my show tanks. 


Most of them grew very well, but now I understand why the Sags and sword plants got along so well. 


joe t

Group: AquaticLife Message: 56167 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 7/31/2014
Subject: Re: Aquabid
Hi Byron,

  Most interesting-particularly the info regarding Vallis which I have loads in my tank. Mine often grow those long scapes-didn't realise the flowers were female, I've never seen a male flower.

  John<o)))<


On 31 July 2014 16:54, jett07002@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

Thank you, Byron.   Very interesting.  


When my tanks were set up, Vals and Sags were my favorite plants for some reason.  I had them in almost all my show tanks. 


Most of them grew very well, but now I understand why the Sags and sword plants got along so well. 


joe t


Group: AquaticLife Message: 56168 From: José P. Zúñiga A. Date: 8/6/2014
Subject: Algae Outbreak in my tank

Hi All:

I just returned from a 10-days’ vacation and I noticed that my 55 gallon aquarium has been invaded by hair algae. I run 12 hours of lights, I run an eheim canister filter professional 3e and use C02. How can I get rid of these algae?

Thanks,

Regards,


Jose Pablo Zuniga

Group: AquaticLife Message: 56169 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 8/6/2014
Subject: Re: Algae Outbreak in my tank
Hi Jose,

 Can you tell us what fish you keep? I assume you are running a 'planted tank' rather then a 'tank with plants' from your mention of CO2. I see hair algae a lot in the ponds which I maintain this time of year & the reason is almost always sunlight which prompts the outbreak but you regularly have lights on for 12 hours so I wonder if someone has been looking after the tank for you while you have been on vacation? If so then could they have over fed the fish-this is a common problem when a fish keeper goes on holiday & the fish get 'spoiled' by the house sitter.

I do get strands of the stuff in my tank all the time, it tends to congregate in small clumps around my Anacharis & sometimes streams off the Vallis at the surface but it never reaches epidemic proportions-I remove it by winding it around a cotton bud which works fine. There are herbicides which are used in ponds that specifically target this stuff by breaking it up so it gets caught in the filters-however I don't know if there are similar or suitable additives for tank use. Apologies for my limited advice-hopefully someone can offer you some more positive help.

  John<o)))<


On 6 August 2014 20:12, José P. Zúñiga A. jpzuniga@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

Hi All:

I just returned from a 10-days’ vacation and I noticed that my 55 gallon aquarium has been invaded by hair algae. I run 12 hours of lights, I run an eheim canister filter professional 3e and use C02. How can I get rid of these algae?

Thanks,

Regards,


Jose Pablo Zuniga


Group: AquaticLife Message: 56170 From: José P. Zúñiga A. Date: 8/6/2014
Subject: Re: Algae Outbreak in my tank
Hi John:

You are right. I have a planted tank and while I was away, I left the automatic feeder which I calibrated before leaving on vacation. I do not think my tank was over fed since I also noticed some of my plants were actually eaten by my fish. I have 3 platty, 3 Siamese Algae Eater, 2 Cory Cats & 2 small plecos. 

Another issue that worries me is that the algae is all over my plants, so I do not know if it will eventually kill them.

Regards,

Jose


On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 3:48 PM, SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

Hi Jose,

 Can you tell us what fish you keep? I assume you are running a 'planted tank' rather then a 'tank with plants' from your mention of CO2. I see hair algae a lot in the ponds which I maintain this time of year & the reason is almost always sunlight which prompts the outbreak but you regularly have lights on for 12 hours so I wonder if someone has been looking after the tank for you while you have been on vacation? If so then could they have over fed the fish-this is a common problem when a fish keeper goes on holiday & the fish get 'spoiled' by the house sitter.

I do get strands of the stuff in my tank all the time, it tends to congregate in small clumps around my Anacharis & sometimes streams off the Vallis at the surface but it never reaches epidemic proportions-I remove it by winding it around a cotton bud which works fine. There are herbicides which are used in ponds that specifically target this stuff by breaking it up so it gets caught in the filters-however I don't know if there are similar or suitable additives for tank use. Apologies for my limited advice-hopefully someone can offer you some more positive help.

  John<o)))<


On 6 August 2014 20:12, José P. Zúñiga A. jpzuniga@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

Hi All:

I just returned from a 10-days’ vacation and I noticed that my 55 gallon aquarium has been invaded by hair algae. I run 12 hours of lights, I run an eheim canister filter professional 3e and use C02. How can I get rid of these algae?

Thanks,

Regards,


Jose Pablo Zuniga



Group: AquaticLife Message: 56171 From: Amber Date: 8/6/2014
Subject: Re: Algae Outbreak in my tank
I would suggest cutting the amount of light to more like 6 hours a day for now, or even less if your plants will be okay. I use flourish excel in most of my tanks with plants and it has a type of algaecide in it (natural one) that helps combat algae, I'm not sure what to do when you use injection CO2.

Amber

On Wed, 06 Aug 2014 11:12:28 -0800, José P. Zúñiga A. jpzuniga@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

Hi All:

I just returned from a 10-days’ vacation and I noticed that my 55 gallon aquarium has been invaded by hair algae. I run 12 hours of lights, I run an eheim canister filter professional 3e and use C02. How can I get rid of these algae?

Thanks,

Regards,


Jose Pablo Zuniga


Group: AquaticLife Message: 56172 From: amphibian_ca Date: 8/7/2014
Subject: Re: Algae Outbreak in my tank
My first question would be, is this really hair algae, or rather a form of brush algae?  Many call the latter "hair."

Algae is always waiting to take advantage of the situation.  It is possible that too much food was being added (it is not just excess food that might accumulate, but more food into the fish is more waste out.  So either way, organics will rise and this feeds algae.  Another cause is lack of water changes.  I don't know your schedule, but a water change should be done every week, and if this occurs, algae can be partially thwarted, and 10 days with no water changes plus the food is likely the cause.  Light is another factor, and the additional daylight during summer (more intensity plus longer duration) can in itself trigger algae increases.  Put all these together...

As you were on a regular and consistent duration with tank lighting, I would not reduce it more than an hour or two.  The plants and fish have become accustomed to the duration and their inner circadian rhythm can be thrown off with sudden changes, causing more issues.  Major water changes, including vacuuming the substrate to remove organics, is the best course of action.

Byron.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56173 From: amejia1976 Date: 8/7/2014
Subject: Re: Aquabid
Sorry I have not responded. Work has been busier than expected.

Thank you all for your input and info about the plants.

As of this moment I am just cycling the tank using water and bioballs I had set aside in the temp tank. So far I have no Ammo No Nitri and 40 Nitra.

Just going to wait a few more days and test again before I add fish.

Have a good one.

@lex

Group: AquaticLife Message: 56174 From: sflerc726 Date: 8/13/2014
Subject: Stocking ideas for new aquarist with a 55gal tank

Hi I just set up my 55 gallon tank and it is nearly ready for fish. Ultimately I would like to get some angelfish. However i plan on starting with some easier starter fish but I want to make sure they will get along with my angelfish in the future. Some fish I was thinking about were blackskirt tetras and neon tetras. Can you guys please give me some suggestions for how many fish I should start with, when to add more, and ideas for my ultimate stocking scheme? Some other fish I was considering were some swordtails, and I am open to other ideas as well. Any input is welcome! :) Thanks!

Group: AquaticLife Message: 56175 From: ptimlin Date: 8/14/2014
Subject: Re: Stocking ideas for new aquarist with a 55gal tank
Blackskirts are cool fish but they are a bit nippy and this could be a problem later when Angelfish get their longer fins. Swordfish are a hardwater fish while angels are more of a softwater fish, although angels can adapt to a wide range of water types (most are fish farmed in Florida with rather hard water).Neon tetras are a good choice if they are in there first full grown and the Angels are small when introduced so they grow up with the smaller fish and don't see them as snacks. Cardinal tetras, black neon tetras, and Glowlight tetras (I have always loved their neon orange) are other choices that are cheap, easy to care for and widely available. All of them stay small so you can get a decent sized school of them without risking overstocking a 55g.And of course, what Angel fish tank is complete without a little school of Cory cats bumbling around the bottom?  ;)P.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56176 From: amphibian_ca Date: 8/14/2014
Subject: Re: Stocking ideas for new aquarist with a 55gal tank
Angelfish will be nice in a 55g.  A group of five is best; any fewer and you risk one becoming targeted.  Just realize that you will likely have male/female and thus pairing which means spawning and another set of issues.
I agree that black skirts or black widow are not a good choice, as they tend to get nippy with sedate fish present.  This nipping is something that any tetra can resort too if kept in insufficient numbers, so whatever other tetra you decide on, have a decent-sized group.  This rather depends upon the species.  I would avoid linear fish like neons because these can often be seen by the angels as food, though adding the angels last and at a small size may prevent this if the tetra are large enough.
Good fish with angels are several of the tetra species in the "Rosy" clade of Hyphessobrycon, such as the Rosy Tetra, Roberti Tetra, etc.  Just avoid the fin nippers like the Serpae (Red Minor).  A group of corydoras (they are shoaling fish too) is a nice addition as mentioned.  No less than five, but you have space for more, and I would say around 12.  You can mix species, but try to have several of each species; corys are highly social fish.
You should check your water supply people (their website) for the parameters of your tap water.  While many are somewhat adaptable, some species have preferences, some have specific needs, so this will help in deciding.
Byron.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56177 From: Terri Ferrier Date: 8/14/2014
Subject: Re: Stocking ideas for new aquarist with a 55gal tank

You've gotten some good suggestions so far.  However, there are always exceptions to every rule:)  I have 2 fairly large angelfish right now.  I bought them as very young, small angels that I put in a 36 gal with neons, guppies, glass cats, etc. along with 3 blackskirt tetras.  They did extremely well and were never aggressive in any way. (and neither were the black tetras)  The angels very quickly grew quite a bit larger (still non-aggressive) and I bought a 75 gallon tank with plans to move them into that tank along with a bunch of cichlids.  I started with very young cichlids that were dwarfed by the the size of these angels.  Never a problem one.  They are still in the 75 gal along with 4 electric blue johannis, 4 yellow labs, 2 orange zebras, 4 parrot fish, 2 gold gouramis, 3 pink gouramis, 4 giant danios, 4 turquoise rainbow fish, 2 rosy barbs, 2 plecos, a red tail shark and a featherfin cat.  As of now, the angels are still the largest fish in the tank but the others are catching up fast.  None of the fish bother the angels and the angels pay no attention to any of the others.  When the time comes though, I'll be moving some of them to my new 110 gal tank.  Everything I've read says they do best in soft water with lower PH levels.  My water is extremely hard, the PH is 8.4 and they are thriving.  I do nothing to change the ph levels.  They are what they are and ping ponging levels does much more harm than steady levels that are not quite ideal.  Most fish can and do adapt to conditions that are not the best.  Now having said all this, I would never introduce my angels in a tank of large full grown cichlids.  Raising them up from young small fish though, none of them have developed any aggression.  It was the same when they were in the 36 gal tank with the small community fish.

 

Terri

 


From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2014 10:38 PM
To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AquaticLife] Stocking ideas for new aquarist with a 55gal tank

Hi I just set up my 55 gallon tank and it is nearly ready for fish. Ultimately I would like to get some angelfish. However i plan on starting with some easier starter fish but I want to make sure they will get along with my angelfish in the future. Some fish I was thinking about were blackskirt tetras and neon tetras. Can you guys please give me some suggestions for how many fish I should start with, when to add more, and ideas for my ultimate stocking scheme? Some other fish I was considering were some swordtails, and I am open to other ideas as well. Any input is welcome! :) Thanks!


__

Group: AquaticLife Message: 56178 From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c Date: 8/14/2014
Subject: Re: Stocking ideas for new aquarist with a 55gal tank
I personally would skip the neon tetras.  Not only are they often seen by angels as food, but they are not a hearty fish, certainly not a good species to use for starting a new tank.  I am wondering if this 55 gallon tank will be your final tank or if you intend to upgrade in the next 1 - 2 yrs?  That is going to make a big difference on what fish and how many of each will work together with angels in a 55 gallon tank.  Adult angels are typically very territorial and can be very aggressive, not to mention their large size.  If you were to end up with a breeding pair then aggression and territorial issues would only increase.  If angels are your planned centerpiece fish then they should be planned around carefully, including how many angels you are putting in there.  Another thing to take into consideration is your equipment/level of filtration and how much maintenance you wish to do as the fish mature.  The more fish you add to the tank the more frequent the water changes will need to be.  55 gallons may seem large to some people, but to a fish that is a very limited amount of space to coexist with other fish.  I have angels in 3 of my tanks currently.  1 is an adult male who cannot coexist with other angels or other large fish who share his territory.  He is in a 65 gallon tank and lives happily with a school of 10 white clouds & gold white clouds and a school of 6 albino cory catfish, along with a very small/young albino bristlenose pleco.  The tank is heavily planted and they have all been together for years without issues.  In another 65 gallon tank I have a younger (2 yr old) single angelfish with a juvenile clown loach, a 7 yr old rubber pleco, 2 very old zebra danios, and 6 young lyretail sailfin mollies.  This tank is less heavily planted but has a lot more rock work decor, everyone gets along wonderfully and the angel helps to control the molly population by eating the majority of the fry when they appear.  In one of my 215 gallon tanks I have 4 angels (3 yrs old) that I raised from hatching, so they are siblings.  I kept them because of their genetic defects to prevent having to cull them from the spawn that was sold to the lfs.  They share their tank with a school of 6 turquoise rainbows, 3 botia striata loaches, 4 juvenile bristlenose plecos.  This is a heavily decorated and semi heavily planted tank and all get along great.There are a wide variety of fish that are compatible with angels, but it really depends on tank size and the amount of decor in the tank.  White clouds and gold white clouds are one of my favorites to mix with angelfish.  They are sturdy, easy, and inexpensive, plus they stay small (about 1 inch full grown) and are very colorful.  Swordtails are great fish but be prepared for their adult size of up to 5 inches and the fact that as adults they can be a bit nippy.  Mollies are fun and come in a wide variety of colors and fin styles.  Sphenops mollies and gold dust mollies are some that stay smaller (under 2 inches) while sailfins can max out at 5 - 6 inches.  Platys are also typically compatible with angelfish, but again, many platys can grow up to 3 inches as mature adults.  Other hearty options that can work well with angels: dwarf neon rainbows, red & blue columbian tetras, any of the danios (these are one of the sturdiest and best beginner fish), madigascar rainbows, head & tail light tetras, glo lite tetras, congo tetras, green fire tetras, roberti tetras, glass catfish, any of the botia loaches, gold barbs, cherry barbs, harlequin rasboras, scissortail rasboras (these can get up to 4 - 5 inches as adult), and of course most of the species of cory cats (any who are compatible in terms of environment).  You have lots of options.  I would urge you to do some research, choose 1 - 2 species of fish that are compatible (most of the above named species will coexist peacefully provided the tank is properly/heavily decorated), determine their adult size, and choose your schools carefully based on what will fit comfortably in your tank without crowding.  Be careful not to overstock your fish population.  Under stocked is always better than over stocked.  Once you choose the species you wish to keep, come on back to the group and ask about population limits.  That is the easiest way for anyone to help give you sound, accurate advice.Congrats on your new tank.  :-)Dawn  
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56179 From: Terri Ferrier Date: 8/23/2014
Subject: Need advice on lighting

I have a tall 110gal freshwater tank.  No live plants, it's mostly cichlids.  It measures 48" wide, 27" tall and 18" deep.  Currently I have 2 light fixtures on it.  One is an Aqueon 2-T5 fixture 48" long with a 6700K bulb and a colormax bulb in it.  The other fixture is a Current- USA 48" Satellite LED fixture, seen here - http://www.marinedepot.com/Current_USA_Satellite_Freshwater_LED_24_Inch_LED_Light_Fixtures-Current_USA-CU04000-FILTFILDTF-vi.html  These lights provide OK lighting, it's just not bright and details in the tank don't pop. 

The colors of the fish don't either.   There's a shadow in the back going along the top 8" or so..  It's frustrating because my 75 gallon tank that measures 48" wide 19" tall and 18" deep has a Current-USA 36" LED and the single bulb light fixture that came with my tank with a colormax bulb in it and this tank really pops.  The fish colors are vibrant.  You can see everything in this tank.

 

I'd like to make the lighting effects in the 110 gal more like the other tank.  Any recommendations?

 

Terri Ferrier

Group: AquaticLife Message: 56180 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 8/24/2014
Subject: Re: Need advice on lighting
Hi Terri,
 
  I'm no expert on lighting & my 120 US gallon Goldfish tank has some plants in it rather than being a 'Planted Tank' it is 8 feet long & 20 x 20 inches square section. I use 2 Biopur free standing lighting units each fitted with 2 x 34", 39W T5s, one is a standard white Arcadia Plant Pro & the other is a Tropical pink. Combined they work much like natural sunlight & I am very happy with the results-nice & bright so that the fishes glossy coats shine & the greenery looks vibrant & healthy. The plants I have are variously Vallis, Anacharis, Water Sprite & Hornwort which all grow so well I am frequently pruning them just to keep them from taking over the tank. I have the lights on for about 7 hours per day, they've been running for over 5 years now with no problems whatsoever & are really easy lights to clean, maintain & change the bulbs. One thing that is very noticeable is when you put a new bulb in the difference in luminosity to the old ones is very obvious-especially as I usually change one side a day or two before the other so I can directly compare the brightness & the old ones dull considerably over a year so I try to change them around every 9-10 months-hope this is of some help.

  John<o)))<


On 24 August 2014 03:51, 'Terri Ferrier' terriferrier@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

I have a tall 110gal freshwater tank.  No live plants, it's mostly cichlids.  It measures 48" wide, 27" tall and 18" deep.  Currently I have 2 light fixtures on it.  One is an Aqueon 2-T5 fixture 48" long with a 6700K bulb and a colormax bulb in it.  The other fixture is a Current-USA 48" Satellite LED fixture, seen here - http://www.marinedepot.com/Current_USA_Satellite_Freshwater_LED_24_Inch_LED_Light_Fixtures-Current_USA-CU04000-FILTFILDTF-vi.html  These lights provide OK lighting, it's just not bright and details in the tank don't pop. 

The colors of the fish don't either.   There's a shadow in the back going along the top 8" or so..  It's frustrating because my 75 gallon tank that measures 48" wide 19" tall and 18" deep has a Current-USA 36" LED and the single bulb light fixture that came with my tank with a colormax bulb in it and this tank really pops.  The fish colors are vibrant.  You can see everything in this tank.

 

I'd like to make the lighting effects in the 110 gal more like the other tank.  Any recommendations?

 

Terri Ferrier


Group: AquaticLife Message: 56181 From: sflerc726 Date: 8/27/2014
Subject: Re: Stocking ideas for new aquarist with a 55gal tank
Thank you all for the responses so far. First of all i don't plan on getting any more ranks anytime soon. This 55gal is going to be my main and one and only tank in the foreseeable future. My goal is to creat a community tank with the focus being a pair of angelfish, once my tank is done cycling and Once I feel more comfortable. So far I decided to start with platys to cycle my tank with I got 6 sunburst platys. I fed sparingly and measured my ammonia every day for 7 days and still no measurable amounts of ammonia. So I thought maybe that's not enough fish for such a large tank so I bought 6 albater catfish, they are very small and similar to Cory cats. It's been about 4 days and I still haven't seen any ammonia on my test. I have the API master test kit and I am 100% sure I'm doing the test correctly. Is this normal? Am I doing something wrong? Any advice is welcomed!
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56182 From: acer.myron Date: 8/30/2014
Subject: Re: Can anyone identify this fish?
hi i am acer.  i know  what it is . i have one. it is called a feathered cat fish . i got one from bluegrass fish farm. well its what they called it.  
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56183 From: jett07002 Date: 9/3/2014
Subject: Re: Can anyone identify this fish?

I just clicked the link and got the photo up.  No problem.  


joe t

Group: AquaticLife Message: 56184 From: amejia1976 Date: 9/7/2014
Subject: Finally Up and Running
Finally finished getting up and running.

Uploading a picture and video of the new; improved setup. Will be under AMejia1976

My chemistry is doing great too.

pH @ 7.6
Ammo @ 0 (Zero) ppm
Nitrite @ 0 (Zero) ppm
Nitrate @ 5 (Five) ppm
kH @ 5 (Five) - 89.5 ppm
gH @ 10 (Ten) - 179 ppm.

Will be adding 2 more medium pieces of Mopany and a few caves or hiding spots.

Now that my chemistry has settle I also ordered the Dwarf Sag and American Val. While I have been told they might not like each other I'll give it a try and see what happens. Seller I got them on Aquabid is also throwing in some pennyworth, moneywort, ludwigia and water nymph. Figured since they are low to medium light I'd give them a try too.

Must admit, even if the plants don't take; the look of more natural looking substrate (Fluorite) adds a great visual.

Will be sticking to fish I know. 8 Red Eye Tetra, 10 Black Skirt Tetra, 10 Sarpae Tetra, 5 Pristella Tetra, 15 Gold Bar, 10 Cherry Barbs, 1 Raimbow Shark, 1 Chinese Algae Eater, 8 Pearl Danios, and some Swordfish. 

Well. Just wanted to stop by and say hello and update.

Hope everyone is having a great summer.

@lex


Group: AquaticLife Message: 56185 From: sevenspringss Date: 9/8/2014
Subject: Re: Finally Up and Running
AOL Email
Hi @lex,
 
Good to see your water chemistry looking so good.  You made a nice choice of substrate with Fluorite.  Yes, I see no reason why you can't add a couple more pieces of Mopany wood.  I'm not sure what you have in mind for caves, but it looks interesting; perhaps you'd like to share your ideas on that.
 
With your new pre-drilled Marineland 65 gallon, the 68 fish you plan to add are far too many -- and if you're thinking of the out-dated (but still somewhat useful) rule of one inch of fish per gallon, for fish no larger than 3" long, please note that the rule IS per inch of fish (at adult size) per gallon and NOT one fish per gallon.  Besides, this rule can't always be used with a tank's volume without considering its dimensions.  Assuming your 65 is a standard one, it has the same footprint as a 50 gallon tank.  For that matter, it also has the same footprint as a 40 gallon breeder and a 30 gallon breeder.  Ideally, for all practical purposes, while the 65 gallon is twice as high as the 30 gallon breeder, it's capable of maintaining only as many inches of fish (perhaps slightly more) as a 30 gallon breeder tank if your power goes out and the gaseous exchanges rely solely on their natural absorption through the surface without the aid of having the surface turned over by electrically-operated artificial aeration and filtration.
 
One other piece of advice, do not get a Chinese Algae Eater as they all too soon lose their appetite for algae and develop one for the body slime of other fishes, attacking these fish (often during the night).  Instead, get a Siamese Algae Eater -- which has the horizontal (lengthwise) black stripe that runs down the length of the fish, also running through the tail fin.  In the Chinese Algae Eater, this black stripe stops at the base of the caudal (tail) fin and does not run through it.
 
Ray
 
 
In a message dated 9/8/2014 2:56:03 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
 

Finally finished getting up and running.


Uploading a picture and video of the new; improved setup. Will be under AMejia1976

My chemistry is doing great too.

pH @ 7.6
Ammo @ 0 (Zero) ppm
Nitrite @ 0 (Zero) ppm
Nitrate @ 5 (Five) ppm
kH @ 5 (Five) - 89.5 ppm
gH @ 10 (Ten) - 179 ppm.

Will be adding 2 more medium pieces of Mopany and a few caves or hiding spots.

Now that my chemistry has settle I also ordered the Dwarf Sag and American Val. While I have been told they might not like each other I'll give it a try and see what happens. Seller I got them on Aquabid is also throwing in some pennyworth, moneywort, ludwigia and water nymph. Figured since they are low to medium light I'd give them a try too.

Must admit, even if the plants don't take; the look of more natural looking substrate (Fluorite) adds a great visual.

Will be sticking to fish I know. 8 Red Eye Tetra, 10 Black Skirt Tetra, 10 Sarpae Tetra, 5 Pristella Tetra, 15 Gold Bar, 10 Cherry Barbs, 1 Raimbow Shark, 1 Chinese Algae Eater, 8 Pearl Danios, and some Swordfish. 

Well. Just wanted to stop by and say hello and update.

Hope everyone is having a great summer.

@lex


Group: AquaticLife Message: 56186 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 9/8/2014
Subject: Re: Finally Up and Running
Hi Alex,

  Looking good-you got some excellent water chemistry & that's a splendid Rainbow Shark!

  John<o)))<

On 8 September 2014 07:55, amejia1976@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

Finally finished getting up and running.


Uploading a picture and video of the new; improved setup. Will be under AMejia1976

My chemistry is doing great too.

pH @ 7.6
Ammo @ 0 (Zero) ppm
Nitrite @ 0 (Zero) ppm
Nitrate @ 5 (Five) ppm
kH @ 5 (Five) - 89.5 ppm
gH @ 10 (Ten) - 179 ppm.

Will be adding 2 more medium pieces of Mopany and a few caves or hiding spots.

Now that my chemistry has settle I also ordered the Dwarf Sag and American Val. While I have been told they might not like each other I'll give it a try and see what happens. Seller I got them on Aquabid is also throwing in some pennyworth, moneywort, ludwigia and water nymph. Figured since they are low to medium light I'd give them a try too.

Must admit, even if the plants don't take; the look of more natural looking substrate (Fluorite) adds a great visual.

Will be sticking to fish I know. 8 Red Eye Tetra, 10 Black Skirt Tetra, 10 Sarpae Tetra, 5 Pristella Tetra, 15 Gold Bar, 10 Cherry Barbs, 1 Raimbow Shark, 1 Chinese Algae Eater, 8 Pearl Danios, and some Swordfish. 

Well. Just wanted to stop by and say hello and update.

Hope everyone is having a great summer.

@lex



Group: AquaticLife Message: 56187 From: amejia1976 Date: 9/8/2014
Subject: Re: Finally Up and Running
Group settings did not allow me to post the video. Posted to YouTube for those interested.

 

@lex

Group: AquaticLife Message: 56188 From: amejia1976 Date: 9/8/2014
Subject: Re: Finally Up and Running
Thanks Ray;

The count I had was of those already in and 15 others recently purchased. I added more than the rule expecting some to not make it due to stress etc. Thus far 3 have passed since. I too have come to believe the rule is not such a great tool anymore. I am also finding that the fish are not as distributed as expected. Meaning, too many are staying in the bottom. Most of the Cherry and Gold barbs are choosing to stay in the bottom. Hopeful this is just temporary behavior. If it does not I will prog give some to by brother.

The Chinese eater was already there with the now decommissioned tank. Had it since little and I kinda like how it and the Shark look in contrast to the other smaller ones.

Don't really know what to do with the caves. I am getting too worried that the bottom will be too covered and not allow plants to grow since they wont be getting much light. The plan is to add items little by little and see how the behavior and visual appeal develops.

Once the plants arrive I will have a better idea of where I want to end up at. I want to add some Juliie and some panda cories but since I have the Shark I have not since they would have no place to hide and would probably end up as dinner.

Right now my biggest worry is all the fish waste in the bottom. I am feeding very sparingly so all food is getting consumed but they sure poop. Hopefully the plants get here soon and take hold.

@lex

Group: AquaticLife Message: 56189 From: amejia1976 Date: 9/8/2014
Subject: Re: Finally Up and Running
Thanks John. Hopefully I can do better this time.

The shark Ive had since it was 1.5 inches so I am extremelly proud it this one. I had plecos before and they never survived. Shark I've had for over 2 years now.

@lex
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56190 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 9/8/2014
Subject: Re: Finally Up and Running
I like this! The fish all look healthy & active-good work.

  John<o)))<

On 8 September 2014 22:15, amejia1976@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

Group settings did not allow me to post the video. Posted to YouTube for those interested.


My New Freshwater Aquarium
Marineland Pre-drilled 65 Gallon
Preview by Yahoo

 

@lex


Group: AquaticLife Message: 56191 From: amejia1976 Date: 9/8/2014
Subject: Re: Finally Up and Running
Thanks John,

Pics and video are definitely better.. after all we all did have show and tell in school.

Was my first video on youtube. Is kinda nice to be able to show what I am proud of.

@lex
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56192 From: sevenspringss Date: 9/8/2014
Subject: Re: Finally Up and Running
AOL Email
@lex,
 
That rule is still fairly valid when used for fishes up to about 3" or so, but much beyond that size where the height and girth of the fish increase disproportionately, it becomes useless.  As for a fish's location in the aquarium, many species have predetermined establish niches in their habitat -- regardless of what tank you put them in; it's their place in their environment no matter where that might be.  Many closely related Barbs just automatically choose the bottom third of the aquarium in which to reside, and they do this as a species, meaning that for the most part, individuals won't stray too far from this predetermined niche.  We can count on most Danios as preferring the upper quarter of the tank -- any tank -- and Rainbowfish preferring the upper third of the tank.  Many closely related Tetras will reside in the bottom-most third of the tank, but as this family is diverse, those other species of this same family will find other niches, such as the Hatchetfish (found just under the surface) as an example.  By this, you can begin to see that stocking a tank also requires this planning in considering where all the different types of fishes will primarily swim, in addition to their size relative to each other and their compatibility.  There are other fish families which may be found using the entire water column, having no certain preference for any certain level.  Most New World Cichlids (and many West African Cichlids as well) fit into this category, Angelfish being just one of this former group that display this in the aquarium -- but which do prefer the upper reaches of their South American rivers that they reside in.  Festivum Cichlids, most frequently found cohabitating with them, will be found directly underneath them in nature.
 
Yes, once the plants arrive, they'll fill things out more.  As you already know, the taller the tank is, the less useful light there will be to penetrate the depths.  With your choice of low light level plants, this shouldn't be any problem as they should still do well despite this problem.  many things available to us for the aquarium have their drawbacks as well as their distinct advantages.  Fluorite is one of these as it's lightness in the water makes it difficult to vacuum the substrate, to remove the fish waste and debris without vacuuming up the Fluorite too.  As for Cories, they'd make a nice addition and a very useful one besides.  Try looking for individuals that are at least half-grown, rather than the small young ones -- unless your Shark is really a "Shark" not only in name but also in behavior (is it really that bad?).  As for caves, you could try using halves of a terra-cotta flowerpots, cut vertically from top to bottom, and place them horizontally on top of the substrate to use for cover for these Cories.  They're not obtrusive, will not use very much bottom area, and will be a useful addition for housing these fish.  Some hobbyists apply a very thin coating of silicone sealant on top of these flowerpot halves and cover it with the same substrate they're using so that it all blends in with the bottom. 
 
Ray
        
 
In a message dated 9/8/2014 5:34:23 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
 

Thanks Ray;


The count I had was of those already in and 15 others recently purchased. I added more than the rule expecting some to not make it due to stress etc. Thus far 3 have passed since. I too have come to believe the rule is not such a great tool anymore. I am also finding that the fish are not as distributed as expected. Meaning, too many are staying in the bottom. Most of the Cherry and Gold barbs are choosing to stay in the bottom. Hopeful this is just temporary behavior. If it does not I will prog give some to by brother.

The Chinese eater was already there with the now decommissioned tank. Had it since little and I kinda like how it and the Shark look in contrast to the other smaller ones.

Don't really know what to do with the caves. I am getting too worried that the bottom will be too covered and not allow plants to grow since they wont be getting much light. The plan is to add items little by little and see how the behavior and visual appeal develops.

Once the plants arrive I will have a better idea of where I want to end up at. I want to add some Juliie and some panda cories but since I have the Shark I have not since they would have no place to hide and would probably end up as dinner.

Right now my biggest worry is all the fish waste in the bottom. I am feeding very sparingly so all food is getting consumed but they sure poop. Hopefully the plants get here soon and take hold.

@lex

Group: AquaticLife Message: 56193 From: Andy Mills Date: 9/10/2014
Subject: Has anyone heard of a referee fish?
Hi, just wondering if anyone has heard of such a thing as a referee
fish. One of my friends apparently saw some fish marked as this in a
shop a couple of weeks ago. I've never heard of such a thing and can't
find anything on the web. Is there such a thing or is it just some made
up name. If it is a real fish, what are they and does anyone have any
information about them, am curious to know more. Thanks.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56194 From: ptimlin Date: 9/11/2014
Subject: Re: Has anyone heard of a referee fish?
Well all fish names are make up.  ;)

Is this a freshwater fish? Perhaps some sort of "zebra" fish where the "referee" is a reference to black stripes? There could be a number of different species that a shop might give this name, especially among the cichlids such as Convict Cichlids.

Without a photo to look at, we would all be making wild guesses.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56195 From: Andy Mills Date: 9/11/2014
Subject: Re: Has anyone heard of a referee fish?
Yes it was a freshwater fish but I really don't know any more apart from
she said they had red and blue in them. Wish I had more to go on but
that really is all I know. If she goes to the shop again I'll ask her
to try and find out a bit more.



On 11/09/2014 14:24, ptimlin@... [AquaticLife] wrote:
> Well all fish names are make up. ;)
>
> Is this a freshwater fish? Perhaps some sort of "zebra" fish where the "referee" is a reference to black stripes? There could be a number of different species that a shop might give this name, especially among the cichlids such as Convict Cichlids.
>
> Without a photo to look at, we would all be making wild guesses.
>
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56196 From: Alissa Jordan Date: 9/23/2014
Subject: (no subject)
Is there anyone on here in the Lubbock area who would like to take my fish I no longer have time to properly take care of them.
I have a large andel fish, 4 long fin tetras, 2 zebra danios, and a green stripe catfish. Email me at alissajordan79@yahoo if interested thanks.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56197 From: jett07002 Date: 9/24/2014
Subject:

Pardon my ignorance, Alissa, but where is Lubbock?


joe t


Group: AquaticLife Message: 56198 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 9/24/2014
Subject: Re:

On 24 September 2014 16:40, jett07002@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

Pardon my ignorance, Alissa, but where is Lubbock?


joe t



Group: AquaticLife Message: 56199 From: alijo79 Date: 9/24/2014
Subject:

Not an ignorant question, sorry for not adding.It's in Texas. I don't post very often and it took several time before this dinosaur computer would cooperate.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56200 From: sevenspringss Date: 9/28/2014
Subject: Re: New Tank Sale
AOL Email
Just thought I'd let everyone know that PetSmart is having one of their $1 per gallon tank sales -- on 10G, 20G, 29G, 40G and 55G Tetra glass tanks - ongoing now.
 
Ray
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56201 From: amejia1976 Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: New Tank Sale
In my area (Orlando, Fl USA) Petco has a similar sale until 10/11.

@lex
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56202 From: sevenspringss Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: New Tank Sale
AOL Email
Actually, I hadn't seen the message posted, so I assumed it never went through (at least, I never got an email back from Yahoogroups).  Since it did go through, as your message indicates, let me make the needed correction -- that the sale IS at Petco (not PetSmart).  The sale is in most Petco stores from September 28 through October 25, except for the Grand Opening stores which starts their sale on October 1st.
 
Ray
 
 
In a message dated 9/29/2014 7:15:58 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
 

In my area (Orlando, Fl USA) Petco has a similar sale until 10/11.


@lex

Group: AquaticLife Message: 56203 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: New Tank Sale
We don't appear to have any sales like this in the UK unfortunately-every time I see this posted I'm jealous!

  John<o)))<

On 30 September 2014 00:15, amejia1976@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

In my area (Orlando, Fl USA) Petco has a similar sale until 10/11.


@lex


Group: AquaticLife Message: 56204 From: amejia1976 Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Coming Along Well

Hello everyone;


Hope everyone has had a good summer.


Uploaded a few pictures of the tank with some of the added decor. So far I have only added plastic plants, caves and some additional pieces of mopani.


For those who like video head over to another New Freshwater Aquarium video. I think is coming along really good; better than I thought really.


Next is real plants. I already received them and was quarantining them for a week before starting to plant. Any suggestions from those who aquascape on what I can do or use to get them in the ground without disturbing the substrate too much?


Looking forward to your suggestions.


Best regards


@lex

Semper Fi

 

Group: AquaticLife Message: 56205 From: amejia1976 Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: New Tank Sale
Just take a hop across the pond. I am sure you can use a vacay/holiday!

@lex
SemperFi

Group: AquaticLife Message: 56206 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: New Tank Sale
Haha, sounds great but I think the import duty would eat up all my profits despite the cheap air fares!

  John<o)))<

On 30 September 2014 00:39, amejia1976@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

Just take a hop across the pond. I am sure you can use a vacay/holiday!

@lex
SemperFi


Group: AquaticLife Message: 56207 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 9/30/2014
Subject: Re: Coming Along Well
Hi Alex,

  Just watched your video-looks fabulous, well done!

  John<o)))<

On 30 September 2014 00:36, amejia1976@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

Hello everyone;


Hope everyone has had a good summer.


Uploaded a few pictures of the tank with some of the added decor. So far I have only added plastic plants, caves and some additional pieces of mopani.


For those who like video head over to another New Freshwater Aquarium video. I think is coming along really good; better than I thought really.


Next is real plants. I already received them and was quarantining them for a week before starting to plant. Any suggestions from those who aquascape on what I can do or use to get them in the ground without disturbing the substrate too much?


Looking forward to your suggestions.


Best regards


@lex

Semper Fi

New Freshwater Aquarium
Marineland Pre-drilled 65 Gallon. Added Mopani, Caves and some plastic plants. Still a work in progress.
Preview by Yahoo

 


Group: AquaticLife Message: 56208 From: Alex Mejia Date: 10/4/2014
Subject: Re: Coming Along Well
Thanks John. 
Definitelly more work than expected but i am satisfied with the results.

@l3x


Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Note® II


-------- Original message --------
From: "SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@... [AquaticLife]"
Date:09/30/2014 7:02 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Coming Along Well

 

Hi Alex,

  Just watched your video-looks fabulous, well done!

  John<o)))<

On 30 September 2014 00:36, amejia1976@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

Hello everyone;


Hope everyone has had a good summer.


Uploaded a few pictures of the tank with some of the added decor. So far I have only added plastic plants, caves and some additional pieces of mopani.


For those who like video head over to another New Freshwater Aquarium video. I think is coming along really good; better than I thought really.


Next is real plants. I already received them and was quarantining them for a week before starting to plant. Any suggestions from those who aquascape on what I can do or use to get them in the ground without disturbing the substrate too much?


Looking forward to your suggestions.


Best regards


@lex

Semper Fi

New Freshwater Aquarium
Marineland Pre-drilled 65 Gallon. Added Mopani, Caves and some plastic plants. Still a work in progress.
Preview by Yahoo

 


Group: AquaticLife Message: 56209 From: Jim Forshey (Aquatic Book Shop) Date: 10/11/2014
Subject: Some Items we put up for sale on e-bay.
I hope it is appropriate to post this to the group.



Some Items we put up for sale on e-bay.



Every week we will be putting some new items up for sale, please check out
our listings weekly.



For the most part they will be books from the Aquatic Research Institute
library that was in Hayward, California and income produced from the from
the sale of these books are going to Academy of Science in San Francisco
(Steinhart Aquarium)



Darwinschen Theorie by Charles Darwin (in German, Darwinian Theory


<http://www.ebay.com/itm/Darwinschen-Theorie-by-Charles-Darwin-in-German-Dar
winian-Theory-Hardcover-/121458310068>
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Darwinschen-Theorie-by-Charles-Darwin-in-German-Darw
inian-Theory-Hardcover-/121458310068?



The Naturalist in Nicaragua by Thomas Belt

http://www.ebay.com/itm/The-Naturalist-in-Nicaragua-by-Thomas-Belt-Hardback-
1985-Travel-Exploration-/121458320129?



A Year at the Shore By Philip Henry Gosse

http://www.ebay.com/itm/A-Year-at-the-Shore-By-Philip-Henry-Gosse-hardcover-
1865-/121458325509?



Turtles of the United Sates & Canada By Clifford H. Pope

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Turtles-of-the-United-Sates-amp-Canada-By-Clifford-H
-Pope-hardback-1961-/121458331600?



If you have any questions please let us know.

Jim Forshey

The Aquatic Book Shop

California

(530) 622-7547

<http://www.seahorses.com/> www.Seahorses.com



LogoL-tn



´¯'·.¸¸..><((((º>.·´¯'·.¸¸.·´¯'·.¸><((((º>¸.·´¯'·.¸. ,.
.·´¯'·..><((((º>¸.·´¯'·.¸.·´¯'·...¸><((((º>¸.·´¯'·.¸. ,





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56210 From: sevenspringss Date: 10/11/2014
Subject: Re: Some Items we put up for sale on e-bay.
AOL Email
Jim,
 
It is indeed appropriate to post items for sale here with which the proceeds are to benefit such an organization as the Steinhart Aquarium (or any similar academy).  Thanks very much for asking.
 
Ray Wetzel -- Moderator
 
 
 
In a message dated 10/11/2014 2:48:29 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
 

I hope it is appropriate to post this to the group.

Some Items we put up for sale on e-bay.

Every week we will be putting some new items up for sale, please check out
our listings weekly.

For the most part they will be books from the Aquatic Research Institute
library that was in Hayward, California and income produced from the from
the sale of these books are going to Academy of Science in San Francisco
(Steinhart Aquarium)

Darwinschen Theorie by Charles Darwin (in German, Darwinian Theory

<http://www.ebay.com/itm/Darwinschen-Theorie-by-Charles-Darwin-in-German-Dar
winian-Theory-Hardcover-/121458310068>
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Darwinschen-Theorie-by-Charles-Darwin-in-German-Darw
inian-Theory-Hardcover-/121458310068?

The Naturalist in Nicaragua by Thomas Belt

http://www.ebay.com/itm/The-Naturalist-in-Nicaragua-by-Thomas-Belt-Hardback-
1985-Travel-Exploration-/121458320129?

A Year at the Shore By Philip Henry Gosse

http://www.ebay.com/itm/A-Year-at-the-Shore-By-Philip-Henry-Gosse-hardcover-
1865-/121458325509?

Turtles of the United Sates & Canada By Clifford H. Pope

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Turtles-of-the-United-Sates-amp-Canada-By-Clifford-H
-Pope-hardback-1961-/121458331600?

If you have any questions please let us know.

Jim Forshey

The Aquatic Book Shop

California

(530) 622-7547

<http://www.seahorses.com/> www.Seahorses.com

LogoL-tn

´¯'·.¸¸..><((((º>.·´¯'·.¸¸.·´¯'·.¸><((((º>¸.·´¯'·.¸. ,.
.·´¯'·..><((((º>¸.·´¯'·.¸.·´¯'·...¸><((((º>¸.·´¯'·.¸. ,

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife Message: 56211 From: amejia1976 Date: 10/16/2014
Subject: Angelfish - Betta - Suckerfish - Snails

Good morning all;


Friend of mine has given me her angelfish, Betta and Orange Suckerfish as she was not able to take it with her when she moved out of town. 


Angelfish/Suckerfish/Nerite Tank

From looking at images it looks to be a White Blushing Angel (Pterophyllum sp.). While everything I find said it will do fine in a tropical/community environment I wanted to make sure I ran it by the group before I introduce it to my tank.


The suckerfish I can not find any reference on any image that I have seen. It definitely looks like a Chinese algae eater but bigger. It is orange in color and about 4 inches long. I have not been able to take a pic of it yet as it moved way fast.


There are also 3 zebra nerite snails in that tank. While I really like the snails and the info I find say they are not as prolific I am afraid they will escape.


The blue betta is currently in a 3 gallon tank with 2 of the nerite snails. Should it be kept by itself or can I incorporate it?


Currently I have gold, cherry and red barbs, danios, rainbow shark, whisker shrimp, red eye tetras, black skirt tetras, sarpae tetras and Chinese algae eaters.


There is also a lot of hiding places in the tank. This includes mopani, caves, plastic plants and live plants that are still rooting (dwarf sag, penniwort, moneywort, american vallis and ludwigia.


Any input will be greatly appreciated.


@lex



Group: AquaticLife Message: 56212 From: sevenspringss Date: 10/16/2014
Subject: Re: Angelfish - Betta - Suckerfish - Snails
AOL Email
@lex,
 
With you already having Chinese Algae Eaters in your tank, as a blanket recommendation, I would say not to add this Angelfish to this tank.  As These Algae Eaters grow, they lose their appetite for algae and develop a preference for the body slim of slower moving (and flat-sided) fish like Angels.  The Orange "Suckerfish" sounds like it could well be an Orange Bushynose Pleco, which may grow only another inch (if it's a male) -- if it appears that there are bristles growing on its head.  This would be completely safe to add to this tank if it sounds like I described it.  Females of this species have much shorter bristles, but they're still obvious.  Bettas don't generally do very well in a community tank.  I'd advise keeping it in the 3 gallon tank you have it in.  I don't believe the Nerite snail will escape from the tank they're in if there's a full hood on it.
 
Ray
   
 
In a message dated 10/16/2014 8:36:09 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
 

Good morning all;


Friend of mine has given me her angelfish, Betta and Orange Suckerfish as she was not able to take it with her when she moved out of town. 


Angelfish/Suckerfish/Nerite Tank

From looking at images it looks to be a White Blushing Angel (Pterophyllum sp.). While everything I find said it will do fine in a tropical/community environment I wanted to make sure I ran it by the group before I introduce it to my tank.


The suckerfish I can not find any reference on any image that I have seen. It definitely looks like a Chinese algae eater but bigger. It is orange in color and about 4 inches long. I have not been able to take a pic of it yet as it moved way fast.


There are also 3 zebra nerite snails in that tank. While I really like the snails and the info I find say they are not as prolific I am afraid they will escape.


The blue betta is currently in a 3 gallon tank with 2 of the nerite snails. Should it be kept by itself or can I incorporate it?


Currently I have gold, cherry and red barbs, danios, rainbow shark, whisker shrimp, red eye tetras, black skirt tetras, sarpae tetras and Chinese algae eaters.


There is also a lot of hiding places in the tank. This includes mopani, caves, plastic plants and live plants that are still rooting (dwarf sag, penniwort, moneywort, american vallis and ludwigia.


Any input will be greatly appreciated.


@lex



Group: AquaticLife Message: 56213 From: amejia1976 Date: 10/16/2014
Subject: Re: Angelfish - Betta - Suckerfish - Snails
I was afraid you would say that. :(

Once I get home I will see if it looks like the bushy pleco you mention.

As for the nerites. Yes, the tank is covered.... but the filter has has a 1 inch pvc where this little guy will get in thru and end up i the sump. I have been playing with ways to put some sort of screen there but have not been able to figure it out yet.

These Zebra ones are quite pretty though. I love their color/shape.

@lex

Group: AquaticLife Message: 56214 From: Andy Mills Date: 10/16/2014
Subject: Re: Angelfish - Betta - Suckerfish - Snails
Just stand something on the top of the tank over the hole to stop
escapes, I just use an empty fish food container and haven't had any
problems with snails escaping.




On 16/10/2014 14:56, amejia1976@... [AquaticLife] wrote:
> I was afraid you would say that. :(
>
> Once I get home I will see if it looks like the bushy pleco you mention.
>
>
> As for the nerites. Yes, the tank is covered.... but the filter has has a 1 inch pvc where this little guy will get in thru and end up i the sump. I have been playing with ways to put some sort of screen there but have not been able to figure it out yet.
>
>
> These Zebra ones are quite pretty though. I love their color/shape.
>
>
> @lex
>
>
>
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56215 From: amphibian_ca Date: 10/22/2014
Subject: Re: Angelfish - Betta - Suckerfish - Snails
I agree with Ray's cautions, and would add another (sorry).  With some of the tetra and danios you now have, I would not add an angelfish to this tank. Most barbs and danios are active swimmers, and for this reason not a good match with sedate fish.  But some of the tetras pose more of a threat.

Serpae Tetra (Hyphessobrycon eques) are notorious fin nippers, and sedate fish with long fins (like the angelfish) are too much a temptation and will likely be targeted especially when added to the existing mix.  The Black Skirt Tetra and the Red Eye Tetra have similar if lesser reputations as nippers too.  I don't know how many there are of each species, but the fewer the more likely the nipping will be.  This can highly stress out the angelfish, leading of course to a weakened immune system and health problems.

Byron.
Group: AquaticLife Message: 56216 From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: 10/25/2014
Subject: AquaticLife Yahoo! Fish Group ~ Founded: Nov 4, 2002, Tuesday, 04 No
Attachments :
    "AquaticLife Yahoo! Fish Group ~ Founded: Nov 4, 2002" reminder
    When
    Tuesday, 04 November 2014
    12:00 AM to 12:00 AM
    (GMT) Greenwich Mean Time - Dublin / Edinburgh / Lisbon / London
    Where
    http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/AquaticLife/message/31
    Notes
    Add a Friend @ MySpace.com/AquaticLifeGroup ~ AquaticLife ~ the #1 Yahoo! Fish Group, was Originally Named "FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium" Group Name Officially Changed on: Friday, January 28th, 2005 ~ Moderator Activity 1771-1800 of 21521 Jan 28, 2005 8:36 pm Edit (Changed name: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium -> AquaticLife) by tropicalfishman ~ Message #8138 New Group Name - AquaticLife This message is to Notify all members of the group address change. Previous Group Name: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium New Group Name: AquaticLife New Email Address: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com New Web Address: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AquaticLife Please update any Links and Bookmarks with the new name. Thank You ~ Message #8137 [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium group name change Hello, The moderator of the FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium group has changed the group's name to AquaticLife. This means that both the group's email address and the group home page location have changed. The group email address: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com The group home page location: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AquaticLife If you have links which point to this group or an address book entry for the group, you should update them, as the old addresses will no longer work. Regards, Yahoo! Groups Customer Care ~ Message #8140 Fri Jan 28, 2005 8:36 pm [AquaticLife] FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium group name/addresses have changed Hello, The moderator of the FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium group has changed the group's name. ~ Jan 29, 2005 3:21 am Changed category by tropicalfishman ~ Message #8145 New Group Category: Fish We are now the Largest of all Yahoo! Fish Groups. Old Category - Top > Hobbies & Crafts > Hobbies > Aquariums NEW Category - Top > Science > Biology > Animals > Marine Life > Fish
    From
    AquaticLife   Calendar
    Group: AquaticLife Message: 56217 From: joe t Date: 10/26/2014
    Subject: Re: AquaticLife Yahoo! Fish Group ~ Founded: Nov 4, 2002, Tuesday, 0
     
    I am confused.   What's this all about?
    These messages were sent about 10 years ago.  There is no new information.   So what is its purpose?
    Maybe Happy Anniversary? 


    joe t
    Group: AquaticLife Message: 56218 From: Harry Perry Date: 10/26/2014
    Subject: Re: AquaticLife Yahoo! Fish Group ~ Founded: Nov 4, 2002, Tuesday, 0
    It's a Yahoo Reminder that was put in the system years ago to mark our anniversary.

    Harry.
    --------------------------------------------
    On Sun, 10/26/14, joe t jett07002@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

    Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: AquaticLife Yahoo! Fish Group ~ Founded: Nov 4, 2002, Tuesday, 04 No
    To: "AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
    Date: Sunday, October 26, 2014, 11:16 AM


      I am
    confused.   What's this all
    about?These
    messages were sent about 10 years ago.  There is no new
    information.   So what is its
    purpose?Maybe
    Happy Anniversary? 

    joe
    t
    Group: AquaticLife Message: 56219 From: sevenspringss Date: 10/26/2014
    Subject: Re: AquaticLife Yahoo! Fish Group ~ Founded: Nov 4, 2002, T...
    AOL Email
    Joe,
     
    While the information was given as it happened, THIS message was not sent out 10 years ago.  You may note, directly below the large bold print headline, it's dated, "When  Tuesday, 04 November 2014," so it couldn't have been sent out years ago.  Also says, "Where" and gives a site to go up to at 12 AM that day (next Tuesday).  I'm guessing this has something to do with the twelve year anniversary, and quite possible our group owner Aaron posted it.
     
    Ray
       
     
    In a message dated 10/26/2014 10:16:32 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
     

     
    I am confused.   What's this all about?
    These messages were sent about 10 years ago.  There is no new information.   So what is its purpose?
    Maybe Happy Anniversary? 


    joe t

    Group: AquaticLife Message: 56220 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 10/26/2014
    Subject: Re: AquaticLife Yahoo! Fish Group ~ Founded: Nov 4, 2002, Tuesday, 0
    Ten years online is quite an achievement-well done! Unfortunately social networking seems to have greatly reduced the traffic lately.

      John<o)))<

    On 26 October 2014 16:10, Harry Perry harryfisherman@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
     

    It's a Yahoo Reminder that was put in the system years ago to mark our anniversary.

    Harry.
    --------------------------------------------
    On Sun, 10/26/14, joe t jett07002@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

    Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: AquaticLife Yahoo! Fish Group ~ Founded: Nov 4, 2002, Tuesday, 04 No
    To: "AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
    Date: Sunday, October 26, 2014, 11:16 AM


      I am
    confused.   What's this all
    about?These
    messages were sent about 10 years ago.  There is no new
    information.   So what is its
    purpose?Maybe
    Happy Anniversary? 

    joe
    t







    Group: AquaticLife Message: 56221 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 10/27/2014
    Subject: Bacterial Bloom?
    Hi Everyone,

      Very occasionally when I do a water change I am left with a very foggy tank for several hours-sometimes it doesn't clear until the morning. It looks very much like a bacterial bloom but I am mystified why it only happens rarely-I change around 25% of the water every couple of days & almost always I do a gravel vac in part of the tank. Sometimes I will tidy the plants or clean some algae off the back wall.

    When this happens the water parameters are exactly the same as they are when there is no fog & the fish seem unconcerned. Usually there is some suspended particles but after the filters have been running for half an hour everything is crystal clear again-there seems to be no pattern to this happening so can anyone suggest a possible cause?

      John<o)))<
    Group: AquaticLife Message: 56222 From: jett07002 Date: 10/27/2014
    Subject: Re: AquaticLife Yahoo! Fish Group ~ Founded: Nov 4, 2002, T...

    Ray, Thanks for pointing out the obvious!  LOL.


    I was referring to the CONTENT of the message.   Presumed it was MAYBE for the anniversary.  But I got a little concerned thinking there was messed up data that got cut off.


    If Aaron did send it, he didn't follow his own rules and take off the old data.   Message could have simply read Happy Anniversary or something of the sort.


    I think Harry hit the nail on the head with the Yahoo Groups System sending it out.  That would certainly explain the mess.


    In any event, Happy Anniversary to all the "originals" that have been on for so long.


    joe t

    Group: AquaticLife Message: 56223 From: Kevin Boyle Date: 10/27/2014
    Subject: Re: Bacterial Bloom?
    On 10/27/2014 8:18 AM, SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@... [AquaticLife] wrote:
     
    Hi Everyone,

      Very occasionally when I do a water change I am left with a very foggy tank for several hours-sometimes it doesn't clear until the morning. It looks very much like a bacterial bloom but I am mystified why it only happens rarely-I change around 25% of the water every couple of days & almost always I do a gravel vac in part of the tank. Sometimes I will tidy the plants or clean some algae off the back wall.

    When this happens the water parameters are exactly the same as they are when there is no fog & the fish seem unconcerned. Usually there is some suspended particles but after the filters have been running for half an hour everything is crystal clear again-there seems to be no pattern to this happening so can anyone suggest a possible cause?

      John<o)))<
    my tanks do the same thing, i always assumed that the the prime i use to rid the incoming water of chloramine converts it to ammonia, the bloom is due to the  beneficial bacteria in the tank stepping up their game and consuming the ammonia, when it's gone things go back to normal, the excess bacteria die off and the water clears.

    -- 
    
    Group: AquaticLife Message: 56224 From: sevenspringss Date: 10/27/2014
    Subject: Re: AquaticLife Yahoo! Fish Group ~ Founded: Nov 4, 2002, T...
    AOL Email
    Joe,
     
    Yes, I'm sure Harry is correct on this.  It makes perfect sense that it's an automatic Yahoo Reminder, now that I think about it -- which I've forgotten about.  As I stated, I was only guessing at what seemed to be an obvious possibility, when nothing else came to mind.  Glad we have Harry here as a moderator, since he knows what's going on.  Looks like we have until next Tuesday to congratulate each other -- and the "Happy Anniversary" greetings are not only for the "originals," they're for all who are part of this group.  I'm not an "original" myself, but joined shortly afterwards, I believe, in 2003 when it was still called "FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium" group, so I remember the change to "AquaticLife."   
     
    While messages have quieted down considerable, due to social networking as John points out, we still have almost the same number of members as we did before the posting drop-off.  If we had lost a considerable amount of the membership, we'd (moderators) know about it as we get alerts from Yahoo whenever anyone unsubscribes -- and while we have seen a number that unsubscribed, we've also seen almost that amount subscribe recently.  I just hope the newest members are not disappointed in the lack of posts, but it's all due to members also having joined Facebook, etc., and chatting there instead.  We were probably the busiest Yahoo fish group on the 'Net before the social networks came along.  There's still a huge Archive of back posts where a member can find just about anything related to any problem they may have, and we're always here to help if a problem needs to be refreshed.
     
    Ray
      
     
    In a message dated 10/27/2014 8:00:03 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
     

    Ray, Thanks for pointing out the obvious!  LOL.


    I was referring to the CONTENT of the message.   Presumed it was MAYBE for the anniversary.  But I got a little concerned thinking there was messed up data that got cut off.


    If Aaron did send it, he didn't follow his own rules and take off the old data.   Message could have simply read Happy Anniversary or something of the sort.


    I think Harry hit the nail on the head with the Yahoo Groups System sending it out.  That would certainly explain the mess.


    In any event, Happy Anniversary to all the "originals" that have been on for so long.


    joe t

    Group: AquaticLife Message: 56225 From: sevenspringss Date: 10/27/2014
    Subject: Re: Bacterial Bloom?
    AOL Email
    Hi John,
     
    As I'm following what you're describing, I'd tend to rule out a bacterial bloom as they just don't clear up in half an hour.  AND, as your filter is clearing this up, unless you're using a diatom filter (and maybe you are?), any other filter will just not filter out bacteria.  I'd have to lean towards fine particulates being stirred up from the substrate as you're adding fresh water.  I'm not exactly sure though about this condition when you say that it can last for several hours -- and sometimes until morning -- yet you also say that it's crystal clear in half an hour by the filter's action. Or, maybe I'm missing something here.  One thing to also consider is even if it's not cleared up in half an hour, a bacterial bloom just does not clear up by the next morning -- nor does it come on spontaneously, immediately after a partial water change.  They take some time to build up. 
     
    I'd be more inclined to say that the cloudiness may be caused by a rare case of your water conditioner reacting with your particular water parameters, as Kevin suggests, but not because of the ammonia being released from the chloramine.  Blooms don't come and go that fast, besides, the bacteria will consume ammonia (as tied up in chloramine) just as fast as they will consume ammonium, converted to this state by the action of Prime; the Prime wouldn't seem to make any difference in the rate of the bacteria's multiplication.  Remember, when considering the rate at which heterotrophic bacteria (Bacillus, Pseudomonas, Escherichicia, etc.) can multiply in minutes, autotrophic (Nitrobacteraceae) is only capable of multiplying at these same numbers in no less than 24 hours.  Nitrobacteria are comparatively slow growing (multiplying) -- it takes that much longer for nitrifying bacteria to multiply than it does for any other type of bacteria to multiply.    
     
    One more thing to consider is that when your water is super-saturated with gases due to its colder temperature and it's being under pressure in you water supplier's pipes, you can get a cloudiness in your aquarium from it as these gases become exposed to much less pressure.  If you tap water is already getting much colder than normal, this could account for this temporary condition.
     
    Ray
     
     
    In a message dated 10/27/2014 7:18:44 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
     

    Hi Everyone,

      Very occasionally when I do a water change I am left with a very foggy tank for several hours-sometimes it doesn't clear until the morning. It looks very much like a bacterial bloom but I am mystified why it only happens rarely-I change around 25% of the water every couple of days & almost always I do a gravel vac in part of the tank. Sometimes I will tidy the plants or clean some algae off the back wall.

    When this happens the water parameters are exactly the same as they are when there is no fog & the fish seem unconcerned. Usually there is some suspended particles but after the filters have been running for half an hour everything is crystal clear again-there seems to be no pattern to this happening so can anyone suggest a possible cause?

      John<o)))<

    Group: AquaticLife Message: 56226 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 10/27/2014
    Subject: Re: Bacterial Bloom?
    Hi Ray,

      Sorry if my description was unclear-just to clarify. This condition happens occasionally after I have done a water change & some tank maintenance. However-I always use a water conditioner & always do the same process of cleaning & sometimes vacuuming sections of the tank. It only occurs occasionally & when have done exactly what I did the previous water change when no 'bloom' occurred-just the stirred-up particles that lasted half an hour or so. No, I don't have a diatom filter-my main filtration is a simple wet/dry affair utilising bio balls, nylon pot scrubbers & ceramic hoops. In addition I have a small canister filter running a UV sub-system & this canister only has ceramic hoops in the trays.

    I understand about the cooler water being super-saturated with oxygen & I did wonder if this was what I was seeing but it happens at any time of year whether the water out of the cold tap is cooler or warmer. I also age it overnight so it gets to more or less room temperature when I do the change so perhaps it isn't that?

      John<o)))<

    On 27 October 2014 16:49, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
     

    Hi John,
     
    As I'm following what you're describing, I'd tend to rule out a bacterial bloom as they just don't clear up in half an hour.  AND, as your filter is clearing this up, unless you're using a diatom filter (and maybe you are?), any other filter will just not filter out bacteria.  I'd have to lean towards fine particulates being stirred up from the substrate as you're adding fresh water.  I'm not exactly sure though about this condition when you say that it can last for several hours -- and sometimes until morning -- yet you also say that it's crystal clear in half an hour by the filter's action. Or, maybe I'm missing something here.  One thing to also consider is even if it's not cleared up in half an hour, a bacterial bloom just does not clear up by the next morning -- nor does it come on spontaneously, immediately after a partial water change.  They take some time to build up. 
     
    I'd be more inclined to say that the cloudiness may be caused by a rare case of your water conditioner reacting with your particular water parameters, as Kevin suggests, but not because of the ammonia being released from the chloramine.  Blooms don't come and go that fast, besides, the bacteria will consume ammonia (as tied up in chloramine) just as fast as they will consume ammonium, converted to this state by the action of Prime; the Prime wouldn't seem to make any difference in the rate of the bacteria's multiplication.  Remember, when considering the rate at which heterotrophic bacteria (Bacillus, Pseudomonas, Escherichicia, etc.) can multiply in minutes, autotrophic (Nitrobacteraceae) is only capable of multiplying at these same numbers in no less than 24 hours.  Nitrobacteria are comparatively slow growing (multiplying) -- it takes that much longer for nitrifying bacteria to multiply than it does for any other type of bacteria to multiply.    
     
    One more thing to consider is that when your water is super-saturated with gases due to its colder temperature and it's being under pressure in you water supplier's pipes, you can get a cloudiness in your aquarium from it as these gases become exposed to much less pressure.  If you tap water is already getting much colder than normal, this could account for this temporary condition.
     
    Ray
     
     
    In a message dated 10/27/2014 7:18:44 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
     

    Hi Everyone,

      Very occasionally when I do a water change I am left with a very foggy tank for several hours-sometimes it doesn't clear until the morning. It looks very much like a bacterial bloom but I am mystified why it only happens rarely-I change around 25% of the water every couple of days & almost always I do a gravel vac in part of the tank. Sometimes I will tidy the plants or clean some algae off the back wall.

    When this happens the water parameters are exactly the same as they are when there is no fog & the fish seem unconcerned. Usually there is some suspended particles but after the filters have been running for half an hour everything is crystal clear again-there seems to be no pattern to this happening so can anyone suggest a possible cause?

      John<o)))<


    Group: AquaticLife Message: 56227 From: sevenspringss Date: 10/27/2014
    Subject: Re: Bacterial Bloom?
    AOL Email
    Hi John,
     
    No, then it can't be excess gases causing this (thanks for making things clearer).  As you don't have a diatom filter, your present filter can't be removing bacteria.  So, to understand this correctly, your filter clears this up within half an hour -- but it's only removing stirred up particles at that time; the "bloom" still remains until the next morning, when it occurs.  Right now, I'm unsure as to what it can be, but I really don't think it's bacteria -- at least not nitrifying bacteria (which is usually what causes a bloom) since it happens too fast.  I have to ask, do you ever use baking soda to boost the pH or maintain it from going acid?  Also, have you tested your tap water for phosphates (specifically, organophosphates -- which uses the same testing reagents), especially the tap water you're adding at the time this happens?  I think it's a chemical issue, or maybe a chemical/heterotrophic bacteria situation whereby these bacteria take advantage of the new influx of nutrients at these times.  While many of these bacteria are anaerobic, there are others that are facultative and which can survive in either aerobic or anaerobic environments.  These bacteria need organic compounds, such as the organophosphates I mentioned, for food; they can't utilize chemical carbon (such as from carbon dioxide) such as what nitrifying bacteria can use, but need organic carbon from more complex (organic) compounds.  I'm only fishing for a solution to your problem as this is far from definite, but perhaps a water test for such compounds may indicate the answer.      
     
    Ray
     
     
    In a message dated 10/27/2014 12:00:29 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
     

    Hi Ray,

      Sorry if my description was unclear-just to clarify. This condition happens occasionally after I have done a water change & some tank maintenance. However-I always use a water conditioner & always do the same process of cleaning & sometimes vacuuming sections of the tank. It only occurs occasionally & when have done exactly what I did the previous water change when no 'bloom' occurred-just the stirred-up particles that lasted half an hour or so. No, I don't have a diatom filter-my main filtration is a simple wet/dry affair utilising bio balls, nylon pot scrubbers & ceramic hoops. In addition I have a small canister filter running a UV sub-system & this canister only has ceramic hoops in the trays.

    I understand about the cooler water being super-saturated with oxygen & I did wonder if this was what I was seeing but it happens at any time of year whether the water out of the cold tap is cooler or warmer. I also age it overnight so it gets to more or less room temperature when I do the change so perhaps it isn't that?

      John<o)))<

    On 27 October 2014 16:49, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
     

    Hi John,
     
    As I'm following what you're describing, I'd tend to rule out a bacterial bloom as they just don't clear up in half an hour.  AND, as your filter is clearing this up, unless you're using a diatom filter (and maybe you are?), any other filter will just not filter out bacteria.  I'd have to lean towards fine particulates being stirred up from the substrate as you're adding fresh water.  I'm not exactly sure though about this condition when you say that it can last for several hours -- and sometimes until morning -- yet you also say that it's crystal clear in half an hour by the filter's action. Or, maybe I'm missing something here.  One thing to also consider is even if it's not cleared up in half an hour, a bacterial bloom just does not clear up by the next morning -- nor does it come on spontaneously, immediately after a partial water change.  They take some time to build up. 
     
    I'd be more inclined to say that the cloudiness may be caused by a rare case of your water conditioner reacting with your particular water parameters, as Kevin suggests, but not because of the ammonia being released from the chloramine.  Blooms don't come and go that fast, besides, the bacteria will consume ammonia (as tied up in chloramine) just as fast as they will consume ammonium, converted to this state by the action of Prime; the Prime wouldn't seem to make any difference in the rate of the bacteria's multiplication.  Remember, when considering the rate at which heterotrophic bacteria (Bacillus, Pseudomonas, Escherichicia, etc.) can multiply in minutes, autotrophic (Nitrobacteraceae) is only capable of multiplying at these same numbers in no less than 24 hours.  Nitrobacteria are comparatively slow growing (multiplying) -- it takes that much longer for nitrifying bacteria to multiply than it does for any other type of bacteria to multiply.    
     
    One more thing to consider is that when your water is super-saturated with gases due to its colder temperature and it's being under pressure in you water supplier's pipes, you can get a cloudiness in your aquarium from it as these gases become exposed to much less pressure.  If you tap water is already getting much colder than normal, this could account for this temporary condition.
     
    Ray
     
     
    In a message dated 10/27/2014 7:18:44 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
     

    Hi Everyone,

      Very occasionally when I do a water change I am left with a very foggy tank for several hours-sometimes it doesn't clear until the morning. It looks very much like a bacterial bloom but I am mystified why it only happens rarely-I change around 25% of the water every couple of days & almost always I do a gravel vac in part of the tank. Sometimes I will tidy the plants or clean some algae off the back wall.

    When this happens the water parameters are exactly the same as they are when there is no fog & the fish seem unconcerned. Usually there is some suspended particles but after the filters have been running for half an hour everything is crystal clear again-there seems to be no pattern to this happening so can anyone suggest a possible cause?

      John<o)))<


    Group: AquaticLife Message: 56228 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 10/27/2014
    Subject: Re: Bacterial Bloom?
    Hi Ray,

      Funnily enough I tested my tank water for phosphates yesterday, before & after a water change it comes in as 0.1 although I just tested my tap water & it comes in a 0.2 is that what you would expect to see? I do add around a third of R/O water into my water change to bring down the background NO3 if that makes any difference to the PO4 results? One thing I am unable to test for Phosphates right now is my aged water but I am putting a tub out this evening for tomorrow's water change & I will test that tomorrow & let you know the results.

    Just to clear things up-no, my filters are not just removing the  stirred-up particles but leaving the cloudness. What is happening is I can do 20 identical water changes with some tank maintenance. One time in 20 I will be left with this cloudiness, that is why I'm a little confused because it seems to happen at random-Summer or winter, morning or evening, whether I re-pot a couple of plants, clean the filter, whether there is salt in the tank or not etc. There appears to be no identifiable common occurrence for this to happen!

    I never use baking soda-i used to use carbon in my filter socks but I have seen no hard evidence that it is doing anything positive so I don't bother anymore. I do add water conditioner-even though I have chlorine in my tap water & I age it overnight I still use the conditioner to remove anything else that may be lurking in there. The only other things I sometimes add are Epsom Salts if one of the fish has any possible constipation issues or general salt which I do from time to time at a background level.I have seen this cloudiness both with & without salt.

    Your suggestion about the bacteria taking advantage of the new nutrients is also something I've considered but if so why does it only happen randomly now & again? Could there be fluctuating levels of something as yet unknown in my tap water?

      John<o)))<


    On 27 October 2014 21:14, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
     

    Hi John,
     
    No, then it can't be excess gases causing this (thanks for making things clearer).  As you don't have a diatom filter, your present filter can't be removing bacteria.  So, to understand this correctly, your filter clears this up within half an hour -- but it's only removing stirred up particles at that time; the "bloom" still remains until the next morning, when it occurs.  Right now, I'm unsure as to what it can be, but I really don't think it's bacteria -- at least not nitrifying bacteria (which is usually what causes a bloom) since it happens too fast.  I have to ask, do you ever use baking soda to boost the pH or maintain it from going acid?  Also, have you tested your tap water for phosphates (specifically, organophosphates -- which uses the same testing reagents), especially the tap water you're adding at the time this happens?  I think it's a chemical issue, or maybe a chemical/heterotrophic bacteria situation whereby these bacteria take advantage of the new influx of nutrients at these times.  While many of these bacteria are anaerobic, there are others that are facultative and which can survive in either aerobic or anaerobic environments.  These bacteria need organic compounds, such as the organophosphates I mentioned, for food; they can't utilize chemical carbon (such as from carbon dioxide) such as what nitrifying bacteria can use, but need organic carbon from more complex (organic) compounds.  I'm only fishing for a solution to your problem as this is far from definite, but perhaps a water test for such compounds may indicate the answer.      
     
    Ray
     
     
    In a message dated 10/27/2014 12:00:29 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
     

    Hi Ray,

      Sorry if my description was unclear-just to clarify. This condition happens occasionally after I have done a water change & some tank maintenance. However-I always use a water conditioner & always do the same process of cleaning & sometimes vacuuming sections of the tank. It only occurs occasionally & when have done exactly what I did the previous water change when no 'bloom' occurred-just the stirred-up particles that lasted half an hour or so. No, I don't have a diatom filter-my main filtration is a simple wet/dry affair utilising bio balls, nylon pot scrubbers & ceramic hoops. In addition I have a small canister filter running a UV sub-system & this canister only has ceramic hoops in the trays.

    I understand about the cooler water being super-saturated with oxygen & I did wonder if this was what I was seeing but it happens at any time of year whether the water out of the cold tap is cooler or warmer. I also age it overnight so it gets to more or less room temperature when I do the change so perhaps it isn't that?

      John<o)))<

    On 27 October 2014 16:49, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
     

    Hi John,
     
    As I'm following what you're describing, I'd tend to rule out a bacterial bloom as they just don't clear up in half an hour.  AND, as your filter is clearing this up, unless you're using a diatom filter (and maybe you are?), any other filter will just not filter out bacteria.  I'd have to lean towards fine particulates being stirred up from the substrate as you're adding fresh water.  I'm not exactly sure though about this condition when you say that it can last for several hours -- and sometimes until morning -- yet you also say that it's crystal clear in half an hour by the filter's action. Or, maybe I'm missing something here.  One thing to also consider is even if it's not cleared up in half an hour, a bacterial bloom just does not clear up by the next morning -- nor does it come on spontaneously, immediately after a partial water change.  They take some time to build up. 
     
    I'd be more inclined to say that the cloudiness may be caused by a rare case of your water conditioner reacting with your particular water parameters, as Kevin suggests, but not because of the ammonia being released from the chloramine.  Blooms don't come and go that fast, besides, the bacteria will consume ammonia (as tied up in chloramine) just as fast as they will consume ammonium, converted to this state by the action of Prime; the Prime wouldn't seem to make any difference in the rate of the bacteria's multiplication.  Remember, when considering the rate at which heterotrophic bacteria (Bacillus, Pseudomonas, Escherichicia, etc.) can multiply in minutes, autotrophic (Nitrobacteraceae) is only capable of multiplying at these same numbers in no less than 24 hours.  Nitrobacteria are comparatively slow growing (multiplying) -- it takes that much longer for nitrifying bacteria to multiply than it does for any other type of bacteria to multiply.    
     
    One more thing to consider is that when your water is super-saturated with gases due to its colder temperature and it's being under pressure in you water supplier's pipes, you can get a cloudiness in your aquarium from it as these gases become exposed to much less pressure.  If you tap water is already getting much colder than normal, this could account for this temporary condition.
     
    Ray
     
     
    In a message dated 10/27/2014 7:18:44 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
     

    Hi Everyone,

      Very occasionally when I do a water change I am left with a very foggy tank for several hours-sometimes it doesn't clear until the morning. It looks very much like a bacterial bloom but I am mystified why it only happens rarely-I change around 25% of the water every couple of days & almost always I do a gravel vac in part of the tank. Sometimes I will tidy the plants or clean some algae off the back wall.

    When this happens the water parameters are exactly the same as they are when there is no fog & the fish seem unconcerned. Usually there is some suspended particles but after the filters have been running for half an hour everything is crystal clear again-there seems to be no pattern to this happening so can anyone suggest a possible cause?

      John<o)))<



    Group: AquaticLife Message: 56229 From: Terri Ferrier Date: 10/27/2014
    Subject: Re: Bacterial Bloom?

    I've had this happen also.  We're on well water and I finally noticed that it does it when I do my water changes using water from a hard water line instead of a softened water line.  It's mineral content that clouds the water.  It clears up by the next day.

     

    Terri

     


    From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com ]
    Sent: Monday, October 27, 2014 12:00 PM
    To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
    Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Bacterial Bloom?

     

    Hi Ray,

      Sorry if my description was unclear-just to clarify. This condition happens occasionally after I have done a water change & some tank maintenance. However-I always use a water conditioner & always do the same process of cleaning & sometimes vacuuming sections of the tank. It only occurs occasionally & when have done exactly what I did the previous water change when no 'bloom' occurred-just the stirred-up particles that lasted half an hour or so. No, I don't have a diatom filter-my main filtration is a simple wet/dry affair utilising bio balls, nylon pot scrubbers & ceramic hoops. In addition I have a small canister filter running a UV sub-system & this canister only has ceramic hoops in the trays.

    I understand about the cooler water being super-saturated with oxygen & I did wonder if this was what I was seeing but it happens at any time of year whether the water out of the cold tap is cooler or warmer. I also age it overnight so it gets to more or less room temperature when I do the change so perhaps it isn't that?

      John<o)))<

     

    Group: AquaticLife Message: 56230 From: sevenspringss Date: 10/27/2014
    Subject: Re: Bacterial Bloom?
    AOL Email
    Hi John,
     
    Yes, a higher level of phosphates before a bloom is exactly what I'd expect to see, even though I don't know the amount needed to trigger a bloom.  Testing the water regularly for this compound may show some indication that this could be the cause if the higher levels are seen to coincide with these blooms.  You'd need to chart it for a period of time to see when differences in the level correlates with the blooms.  It's these possible fluctuating levels of phosphate presence I'm concerned about.
     
    Ray
     
     
    In a message dated 10/27/2014 5:04:45 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
     

    Hi Ray,

      Funnily enough I tested my tank water for phosphates yesterday, before & after a water change it comes in as 0.1 although I just tested my tap water & it comes in a 0.2 is that what you would expect to see? I do add around a third of R/O water into my water change to bring down the background NO3 if that makes any difference to the PO4 results? One thing I am unable to test for Phosphates right now is my aged water but I am putting a tub out this evening for tomorrow's water change & I will test that tomorrow & let you know the results.

    Just to clear things up-no, my filters are not just removing the  stirred-up particles but leaving the cloudness. What is happening is I can do 20 identical water changes with some tank maintenance. One time in 20 I will be left with this cloudiness, that is why I'm a little confused because it seems to happen at random-Summer or winter, morning or evening, whether I re-pot a couple of plants, clean the filter, whether there is salt in the tank or not etc. There appears to be no identifiable common occurrence for this to happen!

    I never use baking soda-i used to use carbon in my filter socks but I have seen no hard evidence that it is doing anything positive so I don't bother anymore. I do add water conditioner-even though I have chlorine in my tap water & I age it overnight I still use the conditioner to remove anything else that may be lurking in there. The only other things I sometimes add are Epsom Salts if one of the fish has any possible constipation issues or general salt which I do from time to time at a background level.I have seen this cloudiness both with & without salt.

    Your suggestion about the bacteria taking advantage of the new nutrients is also something I've considered but if so why does it only happen randomly now & again? Could there be fluctuating levels of something as yet unknown in my tap water?

      John<o)))<


    On 27 October 2014 21:14, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
     

    Hi John,
     
    No, then it can't be excess gases causing this (thanks for making things clearer).  As you don't have a diatom filter, your present filter can't be removing bacteria.  So, to understand this correctly, your filter clears this up within half an hour -- but it's only removing stirred up particles at that time; the "bloom" still remains until the next morning, when it occurs.  Right now, I'm unsure as to what it can be, but I really don't think it's bacteria -- at least not nitrifying bacteria (which is usually what causes a bloom) since it happens too fast.  I have to ask, do you ever use baking soda to boost the pH or maintain it from going acid?  Also, have you tested your tap water for phosphates (specifically, organophosphates -- which uses the same testing reagents), especially the tap water you're adding at the time this happens?  I think it's a chemical issue, or maybe a chemical/heterotrophic bacteria situation whereby these bacteria take advantage of the new influx of nutrients at these times.  While many of these bacteria are anaerobic, there are others that are facultative and which can survive in either aerobic or anaerobic environments.  These bacteria need organic compounds, such as the organophosphates I mentioned, for food; they can't utilize chemical carbon (such as from carbon dioxide) such as what nitrifying bacteria can use, but need organic carbon from more complex (organic) compounds.  I'm only fishing for a solution to your problem as this is far from definite, but perhaps a water test for such compounds may indicate the answer.      
     
    Ray
     
     
    In a message dated 10/27/2014 12:00:29 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
     

    Hi Ray,

      Sorry if my description was unclear-just to clarify. This condition happens occasionally after I have done a water change & some tank maintenance. However-I always use a water conditioner & always do the same process of cleaning & sometimes vacuuming sections of the tank. It only occurs occasionally & when have done exactly what I did the previous water change when no 'bloom' occurred-just the stirred-up particles that lasted half an hour or so. No, I don't have a diatom filter-my main filtration is a simple wet/dry affair utilising bio balls, nylon pot scrubbers & ceramic hoops. In addition I have a small canister filter running a UV sub-system & this canister only has ceramic hoops in the trays.

    I understand about the cooler water being super-saturated with oxygen & I did wonder if this was what I was seeing but it happens at any time of year whether the water out of the cold tap is cooler or warmer. I also age it overnight so it gets to more or less room temperature when I do the change so perhaps it isn't that?

      John<o)))<

    On 27 October 2014 16:49, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
     

    Hi John,
     
    As I'm following what you're describing, I'd tend to rule out a bacterial bloom as they just don't clear up in half an hour.  AND, as your filter is clearing this up, unless you're using a diatom filter (and maybe you are?), any other filter will just not filter out bacteria.  I'd have to lean towards fine particulates being stirred up from the substrate as you're adding fresh water.  I'm not exactly sure though about this condition when you say that it can last for several hours -- and sometimes until morning -- yet you also say that it's crystal clear in half an hour by the filter's action. Or, maybe I'm missing something here.  One thing to also consider is even if it's not cleared up in half an hour, a bacterial bloom just does not clear up by the next morning -- nor does it come on spontaneously, immediately after a partial water change.  They take some time to build up. 
     
    I'd be more inclined to say that the cloudiness may be caused by a rare case of your water conditioner reacting with your particular water parameters, as Kevin suggests, but not because of the ammonia being released from the chloramine.  Blooms don't come and go that fast, besides, the bacteria will consume ammonia (as tied up in chloramine) just as fast as they will consume ammonium, converted to this state by the action of Prime; the Prime wouldn't seem to make any difference in the rate of the bacteria's multiplication.  Remember, when considering the rate at which heterotrophic bacteria (Bacillus, Pseudomonas, Escherichicia, etc.) can multiply in minutes, autotrophic (Nitrobacteraceae) is only capable of multiplying at these same numbers in no less than 24 hours.  Nitrobacteria are comparatively slow growing (multiplying) -- it takes that much longer for nitrifying bacteria to multiply than it does for any other type of bacteria to multiply.    
     
    One more thing to consider is that when your water is super-saturated with gases due to its colder temperature and it's being under pressure in you water supplier's pipes, you can get a cloudiness in your aquarium from it as these gases become exposed to much less pressure.  If you tap water is already getting much colder than normal, this could account for this temporary condition.
     
    Ray
     
     
    In a message dated 10/27/2014 7:18:44 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
     

    Hi Everyone,

      Very occasionally when I do a water change I am left with a very foggy tank for several hours-sometimes it doesn't clear until the morning. It looks very much like a bacterial bloom but I am mystified why it only happens rarely-I change around 25% of the water every couple of days & almost always I do a gravel vac in part of the tank. Sometimes I will tidy the plants or clean some algae off the back wall.

    When this happens the water parameters are exactly the same as they are when there is no fog & the fish seem unconcerned. Usually there is some suspended particles but after the filters have been running for half an hour everything is crystal clear again-there seems to be no pattern to this happening so can anyone suggest a possible cause?

      John<o)))<



    Group: AquaticLife Message: 56231 From: sevenspringss Date: 10/27/2014
    Subject: Re: Bacterial Bloom?
    AOL Email
    Terri,
     
    There may be something to this where John's water is concerned, which is why I asked about possible baking soda use.  That John hasn't mentioned anything about using a water softener and alternating from this source would seem to eliminate this possibility of minerals being already present in a hard water line as opposed to a soft water line, though.  Still, we can't dismiss the possibility of minerals, although without having two different sources, such differences in minerals would normally only be expected to occur seasonally from his water company.  While no two aquaria are the same, there may be something more to this than meets the eye.  His water chemistry is still being considered, aside from any possible bacteria activity.
     
    Ray
     
    In a message dated 10/27/2014 7:08:41 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
     

    I've had this happen also.  We're on well water and I finally noticed that it does it when I do my water changes using water from a hard water line instead of a softened water line.  It's mineral content that clouds the water.  It clears up by the next day.

    Terri


    From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com ]
    Sent: Monday, October 27, 2014 12:00 PM
    To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
    Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Bacterial Bloom?

    Hi Ray,

      Sorry if my description was unclear-just to clarify. This condition happens occasionally after I have done a water change & some tank maintenance. However-I always use a water conditioner & always do the same process of cleaning & sometimes vacuuming sections of the tank. It only occurs occasionally & when have done exactly what I did the previous water change when no 'bloom' occurred-just the stirred-up particles that lasted half an hour or so. No, I don't have a diatom filter-my main filtration is a simple wet/dry affair utilising bio balls, nylon pot scrubbers & ceramic hoops. In addition I have a small canister filter running a UV sub-system & this canister only has ceramic hoops in the trays.

    I understand about the cooler water being super-saturated with oxygen & I did wonder if this was what I was seeing but it happens at any time of year whether the water out of the cold tap is cooler or warmer. I also age it overnight so it gets to more or less room temperature when I do the change so perhaps it isn't that?

      John<o)))<

    Group: AquaticLife Message: 56232 From: amphibian_ca Date: 10/28/2014
    Subject: Re: Bacterial Bloom?
    I have carried out some research a while back into bacteria in freshwater, and it is my view that what you describe (and given the further data in subsequent posts) is a bacterial bloom.  It could also be microscopic particulate matter, or a combo of both.  The particulate matter can be stirred up (this would settle out reasonably quickly), or arrive via the tap/well water (here in Greater Vancouver we often see very cloudy water after very heavy rains which wash sediment into the reservoirs and the filtration can't handle all of this, as it is very microscopic).  But in most cases I believe it is simply a bacterial bloom, so I'll explain this a bit.

    The tap water is actually high in organics.  Well water that someone else mentioned could have a lot of organics too.  The chlorine and filtration used by the municipality just can't remove these as they are mainly dissolved not particulate.

    Heterotrophs appear sooner and faster.  They build many of the biofilms that all bacteria use to adhere to surfaces, and they reproduce much faster, around 15 to 60 minutes, compared to hours for the autotrophs.  So if heterotrophs cause the bacterial bloom in a new tank, and yet there is very little if any obvious organic waste, how?  Well, when water is dechlorinated, it can suddenly support bacteria, and the "organic waste" in the water itself feeds the heterotroph bacteria and it very rapidly reproduces and clouds the tank milky white.  This will occur in fishless cycling with just ammonia; here It is usually minimal with live plants because they assimilate nutrients from organics.

    Heterotrophs are facultative anaerobes—unlike autotrophs which need oxygen—so they can switch between aerobic and anaerobic depending upon the environment.  When heterotrophs bloom in the water they switch to being aerobic and consume vast amounts of oxygen.  This is the real danger of a bacteria bloom, as it can starve the fish of oxygen.  Increasing aeration may be advisable, but I would not worry about this with normal filtration but only in very still tanks.

    A water change is not recommended to clear a bacterial bloom.  When the free-floating heterotrophs are removed, the others will reproduce even faster to compensate, thus worsening the bloom.  If left alone, they usually dissipate within a few days.  I have this cloudiness at most water changes, and usually minimally; it sometimes clears significantly with a couple of hours, sometimes the next day and almost always by the day following the tanks are what I would call crystal clear.  It varies from tank to tank, as each tank is biologically different, and as I said it can vary according to the level of organics.

    I copied the above from my earlier research to save time, so the font is a bit different.  I left out the bits about other bacterial blooms in established tanks, as you only asked about those connected with a water change.

    Byron.

    Group: AquaticLife Message: 56233 From: sevenspringss Date: 10/28/2014
    Subject: Re: Bacterial Bloom?
    AOL Email
    Byron,
     
    You haven't said anything that I didn't already say although in other words, except that Heterotrophs CANNOT use ammonia; they can't synthesize their own food out of ammonia like nitrifying bacteria can.  Heterotroph's main food is organic carbon, obtained from organic matter having carbon.  They break down any organic matter containing carbon to get their food -- which is why I suggested John test his water for Organophosphates (methyl phosphate, diethyl phosphate, etc.).  I already suggested that John's bacterial blooms may be the result of Heterotrophs -- which, as I said, can multiply in minutes, what it takes autotrophs (like nitrobacters) a day to grow.
     
    Also, it's not so much that autotrophs need the oxygen -- although they do need it -- but much more importantly, they need the carbon dioxide in the water with which they remove this carbon to help synthesize their foods; something that hetertrophs can't do. 
     
    Ray
     
     
    In a message dated 10/28/2014 12:33:57 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
     

    I have carried out some research a while back into bacteria in freshwater, and it is my view that what you describe (and given the further data in subsequent posts) is a bacterial bloom.  It could also be microscopic particulate matter, or a combo of both.  The particulate matter can be stirred up (this would settle out reasonably quickly), or arrive via the tap/well water (here in Greater Vancouver we often see very cloudy water after very heavy rains which wash sediment into the reservoirs and the filtration can't handle all of this, as it is very microscopic).  But in most cases I believe it is simply a bacterial bloom, so I'll explain this a bit.


    The tap water is actually high in organics.  Well water that someone else mentioned could have a lot of organics too.  The chlorine and filtration used by the municipality just can't remove these as they are mainly dissolved not particulate.

    Heterotrophs appear sooner and faster.  They build many of the biofilms that all bacteria use to adhere to surfaces, and they reproduce much faster, around 15 to 60 minutes, compared to hours for the autotrophs.  So if heterotrophs cause the bacterial bloom in a new tank, and yet there is very little if any obvious organic waste, how?  Well, when water is dechlorinated, it can suddenly support bacteria, and the "organic waste" in the water itself feeds the heterotroph bacteria and it very rapidly reproduces and clouds the tank milky white.  This will occur in fishless cycling with just ammonia; here It is usually minimal with live plants because they assimilate nutrients from organics.

    Heterotrophs are facultative anaerobes—unlike autotrophs which need oxygen—so they can switch between aerobic and anaerobic depending upon the environment.  When heterotrophs bloom in the water they switch to being aerobic and consume vast amounts of oxygen.  This is the real danger of a bacteria bloom, as it can starve the fish of oxygen.  Increasing aeration may be advisable, but I would not worry about this with normal filtration but only in very still tanks.

    A water change is not recommended to clear a bacterial bloom.  When the free-floating heterotrophs are removed, the others will reproduce even faster to compensate, thus worsening the bloom.  If left alone, they usually dissipate within a few days.  I have this cloudiness at most water changes, and usually minimally; it sometimes clears significantly with a couple of hours, sometimes the next day and almost always by the day following the tanks are what I would call crystal clear.  It varies from tank to tank, as each tank is biologically different, and as I said it can vary according to the level of organics.

    I copied the above from my earlier research to save time, so the font is a bit different.  I left out the bits about other bacterial blooms in established tanks, as you only asked about those connected with a water change.

    Byron.

    Group: AquaticLife Message: 56234 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 10/30/2014
    Subject: Re: Bacterial Bloom?
    Hi Ray,

      I'll have to keep an eye on the phosphates coming out of my tap from now on-especially if they are going to fluctuate. As with most water companies there is a facility on mine to download a detailed water quality report for my area but this is not really as good a facility as you might think-the results are over a year old & there is only one new report every so often. Additionally there is no phosphate reading although here are a couple of organophosphate insecticides shown but the results are negligible. At least this new report have got the nitrate reading a bit more accurate at 16, last one showed it to be around 7 & it measures just over 15.

     I have uploaded the water quality report for my area of Leicester to the files section of the forum-I know it's a bit long but if you or anyone else interested could have a quick look through maybe something in it may give you a clue as to what is going on with my occasional clouding. I would also appreciate any comments on any aspect of my water supply results as it may be something that has not occurred to me.

      John<o)))<




    On 28 October 2014 23:50, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
     

    Byron,
     
    You haven't said anything that I didn't already say although in other words, except that Heterotrophs CANNOT use ammonia; they can't synthesize their own food out of ammonia like nitrifying bacteria can.  Heterotroph's main food is organic carbon, obtained from organic matter having carbon.  They break down any organic matter containing carbon to get their food -- which is why I suggested John test his water for Organophosphates (methyl phosphate, diethyl phosphate, etc.).  I already suggested that John's bacterial blooms may be the result of Heterotrophs -- which, as I said, can multiply in minutes, what it takes autotrophs (like nitrobacters) a day to grow.
     
    Also, it's not so much that autotrophs need the oxygen -- although they do need it -- but much more importantly, they need the carbon dioxide in the water with which they remove this carbon to help synthesize their foods; something that hetertrophs can't do. 
     
    Ray
     
     
    In a message dated 10/28/2014 12:33:57 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
     

    I have carried out some research a while back into bacteria in freshwater, and it is my view that what you describe (and given the further data in subsequent posts) is a bacterial bloom.  It could also be microscopic particulate matter, or a combo of both.  The particulate matter can be stirred up (this would settle out reasonably quickly), or arrive via the tap/well water (here in Greater Vancouver we often see very cloudy water after very heavy rains which wash sediment into the reservoirs and the filtration can't handle all of this, as it is very microscopic).  But in most cases I believe it is simply a bacterial bloom, so I'll explain this a bit.


    The tap water is actually high in organics.  Well water that someone else mentioned could have a lot of organics too.  The chlorine and filtration used by the municipality just can't remove these as they are mainly dissolved not particulate.

    Heterotrophs appear sooner and faster.  They build many of the biofilms that all bacteria use to adhere to surfaces, and they reproduce much faster, around 15 to 60 minutes, compared to hours for the autotrophs.  So if heterotrophs cause the bacterial bloom in a new tank, and yet there is very little if any obvious organic waste, how?  Well, when water is dechlorinated, it can suddenly support bacteria, and the "organic waste" in the water itself feeds the heterotroph bacteria and it very rapidly reproduces and clouds the tank milky white.  This will occur in fishless cycling with just ammonia; here It is usually minimal with live plants because they assimilate nutrients from organics.

    Heterotrophs are facultative anaerobes—unlike autotrophs which need oxygen—so they can switch between aerobic and anaerobic depending upon the environment.  When heterotrophs bloom in the water they switch to being aerobic and consume vast amounts of oxygen.  This is the real danger of a bacteria bloom, as it can starve the fish of oxygen.  Increasing aeration may be advisable, but I would not worry about this with normal filtration but only in very still tanks.

    A water change is not recommended to clear a bacterial bloom.  When the free-floating heterotrophs are removed, the others will reproduce even faster to compensate, thus worsening the bloom.  If left alone, they usually dissipate within a few days.  I have this cloudiness at most water changes, and usually minimally; it sometimes clears significantly with a couple of hours, sometimes the next day and almost always by the day following the tanks are what I would call crystal clear.  It varies from tank to tank, as each tank is biologically different, and as I said it can vary according to the level of organics.

    I copied the above from my earlier research to save time, so the font is a bit different.  I left out the bits about other bacterial blooms in established tanks, as you only asked about those connected with a water change.

    Byron.


    Group: AquaticLife Message: 56235 From: sevenspringss Date: 10/31/2014
    Subject: Re: Bacterial Bloom?
    AOL Email
    Hi John,
     
    Oddly enough, my machine has fits trying to open a pdf file, and even more fits when trying to access anything on the Neo page.  It's better with a jpg file, but this isn't your problem; it's at my end.  In other words, I'm unable to access info in this form.  Any organophosphate insecticides in minute dissolved amounts would be problematic in providing just the nutrient base that heterotrophic bacteria could thrive on.  With your water company reports coming out so infrequently, there a good chance this or any contaminent may not show up on them at those times if this problem is so occasional.  See if you can locate an aquarium hobby phosphate test kit to keep a closer eye on this possible compound.  
     
    Just out of curiosity though, just how frequent do these "blooms" occur?  If they're once every few months, I realize you'll need to be doing lots of tests, all coming up with negative results, even if this suspected contaminent is the root of this infrequent issue.  As you may already know by now, just about how often this happens or about how long the problem-free periods last, you could start testing near the time you'd expect the next bloom to appear -- unless they're so random as to show no pattern at all.  In that case, I'm afraid you'll just have to test for this all along, after each PWC, until it happens again but at least then it could pinpoint (or not) the source of your problem.  Worst case scenario is that your testing will eliminate the suspected agent, but with putting us one step closer to the actual problem, although the estimation of heterotrophs at this time is real; I highly suspect them. 
     
    Ray
     
     
    In a message dated 10/30/2014 7:34:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
     

    Hi Ray,

      I'll have to keep an eye on the phosphates coming out of my tap from now on-especially if they are going to fluctuate. As with most water companies there is a facility on mine to download a detailed water quality report for my area but this is not really as good a facility as you might think-the results are over a year old & there is only one new report every so often. Additionally there is no phosphate reading although here are a couple of organophosphate insecticides shown but the results are negligible. At least this new report have got the nitrate reading a bit more accurate at 16, last one showed it to be around 7 & it measures just over 15.

     I have uploaded the water quality report for my area of Leicester to the files section of the forum-I know it's a bit long but if you or anyone else interested could have a quick look through maybe something in it may give you a clue as to what is going on with my occasional clouding. I would also appreciate any comments on any aspect of my water supply results as it may be something that has not occurred to me.

      John<o)))<




    On 28 October 2014 23:50, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
     

    Byron,
     
    You haven't said anything that I didn't already say although in other words, except that Heterotrophs CANNOT use ammonia; they can't synthesize their own food out of ammonia like nitrifying bacteria can.  Heterotroph's main food is organic carbon, obtained from organic matter having carbon.  They break down any organic matter containing carbon to get their food -- which is why I suggested John test his water for Organophosphates (methyl phosphate, diethyl phosphate, etc.).  I already suggested that John's bacterial blooms may be the result of Heterotrophs -- which, as I said, can multiply in minutes, what it takes autotrophs (like nitrobacters) a day to grow.
     
    Also, it's not so much that autotrophs need the oxygen -- although they do need it -- but much more importantly, they need the carbon dioxide in the water with which they remove this carbon to help synthesize their foods; something that hetertrophs can't do. 
     
    Ray
     
     
    In a message dated 10/28/2014 12:33:57 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
     

    I have carried out some research a while back into bacteria in freshwater, and it is my view that what you describe (and given the further data in subsequent posts) is a bacterial bloom.  It could also be microscopic particulate matter, or a combo of both.  The particulate matter can be stirred up (this would settle out reasonably quickly), or arrive via the tap/well water (here in Greater Vancouver we often see very cloudy water after very heavy rains which wash sediment into the reservoirs and the filtration can't handle all of this, as it is very microscopic).  But in most cases I believe it is simply a bacterial bloom, so I'll explain this a bit.


    The tap water is actually high in organics.  Well water that someone else mentioned could have a lot of organics too.  The chlorine and filtration used by the municipality just can't remove these as they are mainly dissolved not particulate.

    Heterotrophs appear sooner and faster.  They build many of the biofilms that all bacteria use to adhere to surfaces, and they reproduce much faster, around 15 to 60 minutes, compared to hours for the autotrophs.  So if heterotrophs cause the bacterial bloom in a new tank, and yet there is very little if any obvious organic waste, how?  Well, when water is dechlorinated, it can suddenly support bacteria, and the "organic waste" in the water itself feeds the heterotroph bacteria and it very rapidly reproduces and clouds the tank milky white.  This will occur in fishless cycling with just ammonia; here It is usually minimal with live plants because they assimilate nutrients from organics.

    Heterotrophs are facultative anaerobes—unlike autotrophs which need oxygen—so they can switch between aerobic and anaerobic depending upon the environment.  When heterotrophs bloom in the water they switch to being aerobic and consume vast amounts of oxygen.  This is the real danger of a bacteria bloom, as it can starve the fish of oxygen.  Increasing aeration may be advisable, but I would not worry about this with normal filtration but only in very still tanks.

    A water change is not recommended to clear a bacterial bloom.  When the free-floating heterotrophs are removed, the others will reproduce even faster to compensate, thus worsening the bloom.  If left alone, they usually dissipate within a few days.  I have this cloudiness at most water changes, and usually minimally; it sometimes clears significantly with a couple of hours, sometimes the next day and almost always by the day following the tanks are what I would call crystal clear.  It varies from tank to tank, as each tank is biologically different, and as I said it can vary according to the level of organics.

    I copied the above from my earlier research to save time, so the font is a bit different.  I left out the bits about other bacterial blooms in established tanks, as you only asked about those connected with a water change.

    Byron.


    Group: AquaticLife Message: 56236 From: jett07002 Date: 10/31/2014
    Subject: Re: Bacterial Bloom?

    Hello.


    For what it is worth, I have had this "bloom" problem for years.  It has never bothered my fish.  Unless I am missing something, it hasn't bothered John's fish either. 


    Aside from satisfying John's curiosity, and mine, why should we be concerned about this? 


    As I said, this occasional happening hasn't bothered my fish for many years.  Is there a potential for causing the fish distress or killing them?


    joe t

    Group: AquaticLife Message: 56237 From: sevenspringss Date: 10/31/2014
    Subject: Re: Bacterial Bloom?
    AOL Email
    Hi Joe,
     
    As you're addressing John in the third person here, I don't know who you're asking about why "we" should be concerned about this.  Obviously, John is concerned about it as he wouldn't have asked about it in the first place, and as I'd hope to help him, I'm now concerned about it too but not because it affects me.  One reason for the concern is that we still don't know for sure what's causing it, only what may very possibly be causing it as one of a number of feasible causes.  We don't even know yet for sure if this is an actual bacteria "bloom," just as you can't be sure that your's has been an actual "bloom," even if it takes on the appearance of one.  A large enough bacterial bloom though, can deplete the dissolved oxygen, causing distress to the fish and even the chance for fish loss if the circumstances are more pronounced.  If it's an actual heterotrophic bacteria bloom, fish loss can be experienced when the influx of organophosphates in the tap water increases to a greater level than had been reached in the past, this higher level being capable of promoting an all-encompassing and sufficiently heavy bloom as to cause a bacterial "crash" and with it the suffocation of fish.  If the addition of these organic compounds in the tap water never reach such proportions, then no, it won't cause the fish and harm, but there's no way of knowing when it will -- if this is the root of the problem -- and since we don't know yet for sure whether organophosphates are even present and causing bacteria to multiply in large populations, it remains a concern until the cause of the cloudiness is found.  If John is having the identical problem as you're having, and just like your's, the problem will not get any worse nor cause the fish any stress over the years, then it may well be of no concern -- just as you're questioning it -- but without knowing more about John's problem and/or if it's the same thing you're seeing, it will still remain a concern because of its (unknown) potential.  Hopefully, whenever it does occur in John's tank(s) in the future, it will always be a non-issue, but that remains to be seen.
     
    Ray
     
     
    In a message dated 10/31/2014 11:11:09 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
     

    Hello.


    For what it is worth, I have had this "bloom" problem for years.  It has never bothered my fish.  Unless I am missing something, it hasn't bothered John's fish either. 


    Aside from satisfying John's curiosity, and mine, why should we be concerned about this? 


    As I said, this occasional happening hasn't bothered my fish for many years.  Is there a potential for causing the fish distress or killing them?


    joe t

    Group: AquaticLife Message: 56238 From: Terri Ferrier Date: 10/31/2014
    Subject: Re: Bacterial Bloom?
    AOL Email

    I'd be curious as to the cause.  I did water changes on all 3 of my tanks today and all three are whitish cloudy.  Not bad but the water is not crystal clear.  The temperature has dropped some the last few days.
    I have well water that is VERY hard and the PH is 8.2-8.4
    Two of my tanks water parameters were slightly off today so more water changes again tomorrow. 

     

    Terri


    From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
    Sent: Friday, October 31, 2014 1:26 PM
    To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
    Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Bacterial Bloom?

    Hi Joe,

     

    As you're addressing John in the third person here, I don't know who you're asking about why "we" should be concerned about this.  Obviously, John is concerned about it as he wouldn't have asked about it in the first place, and as I'd hope to help him, I'm now concerned about it too but not because it affects me.  One reason for the concern is that we still don't know for sure what's causing it, only what may very possibly be causing it as one of a number of feasible causes.  We don't even know yet for sure if this is an actual bacteria "bloom," just as you can't be sure that your's has been an actual "bloom," even if it takes on the appearance of one.  A large enough bacterial bloom though, can deplete the dissolved oxygen, causing distress to the fish and even the chance for fish loss if the circumstances are more pronounced.  If it's an actual heterotrophic bacteria bloom, fish loss can be experienced when the influx of organophosphates in the tap water increases to a greater level than had been reached in the past, this higher level being capable of promoting an all-encompassing and sufficiently heavy bloom as to cause a bacterial "crash" and with it the suffocation of fish.  If the addition of these organic compounds in the tap water never reach such proportions, then no, it won't cause the fish and harm, but there's no way of knowing when it will -- if this is the root of the problem -- and since we don't know yet for sure whether organophosphates are even present and causing bacteria to multiply in large populations, it remains a concern until the cause of the cloudiness is found.  If John is having the identical problem as you're having, and just like your's, the problem will not get any worse nor cause the fish any stress over the years, then it may well be of no concern -- just as you're questioning it -- but without knowing more about John's problem and/or if it's the same thing you're seeing, it will still remain a concern because of its (unknown) potential.  Hopefully, whenever it does occur in John's tank(s) in the future, it will always be a non-issue, but that remains to be seen.

     

     


    Group: AquaticLife Message: 56239 From: sevenspringss Date: 10/31/2014
    Subject: Re: Bacterial Bloom?
    AOL Email
    Terri,
     
    This cloudiness issue may not necessarily have the same cause in everyone's tanks.  There's the chance that your problem may have a different origin, if only because of your very different water parameters.  There may be a chemical cause here, especially if longer time periods between water changes elapsed.  Then too, larger than normal PWC's
    could have played a role in this.  Am not exactly sure what is meant by the parameters being "slightly off," but cloudiness can have a chemical cause when too different pH's encounter each other -- depending what elements are present (and what, if any, have been added).
     
    Ray
     
     
    In a message dated 10/31/2014 8:27:53 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
     

    I'd be curious as to the cause.  I did water changes on all 3 of my tanks today and all three are whitish cloudy.  Not bad but the water is not crystal clear.  The temperature has dropped some the last few days.
    I have well water that is VERY hard and the PH is 8.2-8.4
    Two of my tanks water parameters were slightly off today so more water changes again tomorrow. 

    Terri


    From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
    Sent: Friday, October 31, 2014 1:26 PM
    To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
    Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Bacterial Bloom?

    Hi Joe,

    As you're addressing John in the third person here, I don't know who you're asking about why "we" should be concerned about this.  Obviously, John is concerned about it as he wouldn't have asked about it in the first place, and as I'd hope to help him, I'm now concerned about it too but not because it affects me.  One reason for the concern is that we still don't know for sure what's causing it, only what may very possibly be causing it as one of a number of feasible causes.  We don't even know yet for sure if this is an actual bacteria "bloom," just as you can't be sure that your's has been an actual "bloom," even if it takes on the appearance of one.  A large enough bacterial bloom though, can deplete the dissolved oxygen, causing distress to the fish and even the chance for fish loss if the circumstances are more pronounced.  If it's an actual heterotrophic bacteria bloom, fish loss can be experienced when the influx of organophosphates in the tap water increases to a greater level than had been reached in the past, this higher level being capable of promoting an all-encompassing and sufficiently heavy bloom as to cause a bacterial "crash" and with it the suffocation of fish.  If the addition of these organic compounds in the tap water never reach such proportions, then no, it won't cause the fish and harm, but there's no way of knowing when it will -- if this is the root of the problem -- and since we don't know yet for sure whether organophosphates are even present and causing bacteria to multiply in large populations, it remains a concern until the cause of the cloudiness is found.  If John is having the identical problem as you're having, and just like your's, the problem will not get any worse nor cause the fish any stress over the years, then it may well be of no concern -- just as you're questioning it -- but without knowing more about John's problem and/or if it's the same thing you're seeing, it will still remain a concern because of its (unknown) potential.  Hopefully, whenever it does occur in John's tank(s) in the future, it will always be a non-issue, but that remains to be seen.


    Group: AquaticLife Message: 56240 From: Terri Ferrier Date: 10/31/2014
    Subject: Re: Bacterial Bloom?
    AOL Email

    Ray,

     

    Normally, my tanks are 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites and nitrates will vary from 30-80.  Nitrates have been an ongoing thing that I keep a check on and do frequent water changes because of that.  PH is always 8.2-8.4  Today, after water changes, this is what I had:

     

    36 gallon  (1/3 water change) - Ammonia .25  Nitrites 0  Nitrates 30  PH 8.4

    75 gallon (50% water change) - Ammonia .25  Nitrites .25  Nitrates 80  PH 8.2

    110 gallon (1/3 water change) - Ammonia 0  Nitrites 0  Nitrates 40  PH 8.2

     

    All were crystal clear before the water changes.  The 36 gallon I really wasn't surprised at the cloudiness because I removed all the gravel and replaced with sand.  The other two I wasn't expecting the cloudiness.

     

    Terri

     


    From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
    Sent: Friday, October 31, 2014 9:27 PM
    To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
    Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Bacterial Bloom?

     




    Terri,

     

    This cloudiness issue may not necessarily have the same cause in everyone's tanks.  There's the chance that your problem may have a different origin, if only because of your very different water parameters.  There may be a chemical cause here, especially if longer time periods between water changes elapsed.  Then too, larger than normal PWC's

    could have played a role in this.  Am not exactly sure what is meant by the parameters being "slightly off," but cloudiness can have a chemical cause when too different pH's encounter each other -- depending what elements are present (and what, if any, have been added).

     

    Ray

     

     

    In a message dated 10/31/2014 8:27:53 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

     

    I'd be curious as to the cause.  I did water changes on all 3 of my tanks today and all three are whitish cloudy.  Not bad but the water is not crystal clear.  The temperature has dropped some the last few days.
    I have well water that is VERY hard and the PH is 8.2-8.4
    Two of my tanks water parameters were slightly off today so more water changes again tomorrow. 

    Terri


    From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
    Sent: Friday, October 31, 2014 1:26 PM
    To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
    Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Bacterial Bloom?

    Hi Joe,

    As you're addressing John in the third person here, I don't know who you're asking about why "we" should be concerned about this.  Obviously, John is concerned about it as he wouldn't have asked about it in the first place, and as I'd hope to help him, I'm now concerned about it too but not because it affects me.  One reason for the concern is that we still don't know for sure what's causing it, only what may very possibly be causing it as one of a number of feasible causes.  We don't even know yet for sure if this is an actual bacteria "bloom," just as you can't be sure that your's has been an actual "bloom," even if it takes on the appearance of one.  A large enough bacterial bloom though, can deplete the dissolved oxygen, causing distress to the fish and even the chance for fish loss if the circumstances are more pronounced.  If it's an actual heterotrophic bacteria bloom, fish loss can be experienced when the influx of organophosphates in the tap water increases to a greater level than had been reached in the past, this higher level being capable of promoting an all-encompassing and sufficiently heavy bloom as to cause a bacterial "crash" and with it the suffocation of fish.  If the addition of these organic compounds in the tap water never reach such proportions, then no, it won't cause the fish and harm, but there's no way of knowing when it will -- if this is the root of the problem -- and since we don't know yet for sure whether organophosphates are even present and causing bacteria to multiply in large populations, it remains a concern until the cause of the cloudiness is found.  If John is having the identical problem as you're having, and just like your's, the problem will not get any worse nor cause the fish any stress over the years, then it may well be of no concern -- just as you're questioning it -- but without knowing more about John's problem and/or if it's the same thing you're seeing, it will still remain a concern because of its (unknown) potential.  Hopefully, whenever it does occur in John's tank(s) in the future, it will always be a non-issue, but that remains to be seen.


    Group: AquaticLife Message: 56241 From: sevenspringss Date: 11/1/2014
    Subject: Re: Bacterial Bloom?
    AOL Email
    Terri,
     
    As cloudiness is an infrequent issue, and as each aquarium is at least slightly different from the next -- even those in the same fish room -- it's very odd that you should have this same issue in all three tanks at the same time . . . unless it isn't your tanks that are the cause but the water itself that you're adding.  Do you have a small spare tank lying around, such as one always recommended to have as a hospital or quarantine tank?  If so, just try filling it with your well water to see if it clouds up on its own.  Looks like you're not adding anything else to your aquariums as I'm sure you would have mentioned that here, so we can rule out any other "chemicals" in your water except what might be in your well water.
     
    Just because you have well water does not mean that it can't have some of the same organophosphates that were discussed with John's problem, especially if you live in a farming district, and especially if your well water is from a municipal source (private wells can still have these compounds too though, if there are farms in the area).  You haven't stated whether this cloudiness occurred right after adding the fresh well water, or whether it developed over several hours.  This could help point the way to the answer.
     
    Ray
     
     
    In a message dated 11/1/2014 12:07:16 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
     

    Ray,

    Normally, my tanks are 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites and nitrates will vary from 30-80.  Nitrates have been an ongoing thing that I keep a check on and do frequent water changes because of that.  PH is always 8.2-8.4  Today, after water changes, this is what I had:

    36 gallon  (1/3 water change) - Ammonia .25  Nitrites 0  Nitrates 30  PH 8.4

    75 gallon (50% water change) - Ammonia .25  Nitrites .25  Nitrates 80  PH 8.2

    110 gallon (1/3 water change) - Ammonia 0  Nitrites 0  Nitrates 40  PH 8.2

    All were crystal clear before the water changes.  The 36 gallon I really wasn't surprised at the cloudiness because I removed all the gravel and replaced with sand.  The other two I wasn't expecting the cloudiness.

    Terri


    From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
    Sent: Friday, October 31, 2014 9:27 PM
    To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
    Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Bacterial Bloom?




    Terri,

    This cloudiness issue may not necessarily have the same cause in everyone's tanks.  There's the chance that your problem may have a different origin, if only because of your very different water parameters.  There may be a chemical cause here, especially if longer time periods between water changes elapsed.  Then too, larger than normal PWC's

    could have played a role in this.  Am not exactly sure what is meant by the parameters being "slightly off," but cloudiness can have a chemical cause when too different pH's encounter each other -- depending what elements are present (and what, if any, have been added).

    Ray

    In a message dated 10/31/2014 8:27:53 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

     

    I'd be curious as to the cause.  I did water changes on all 3 of my tanks today and all three are whitish cloudy.  Not bad but the water is not crystal clear.  The temperature has dropped some the last few days.
    I have well water that is VERY hard and the PH is 8.2-8.4
    Two of my tanks water parameters were slightly off today so more water changes again tomorrow. 

    Terri


    From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
    Sent: Friday, October 31, 2014 1:26 PM
    To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
    Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Bacterial Bloom?

    Hi Joe,

    As you're addressing John in the third person here, I don't know who you're asking about why "we" should be concerned about this.  Obviously, John is concerned about it as he wouldn't have asked about it in the first place, and as I'd hope to help him, I'm now concerned about it too but not because it affects me.  One reason for the concern is that we still don't know for sure what's causing it, only what may very possibly be causing it as one of a number of feasible causes.  We don't even know yet for sure if this is an actual bacteria "bloom," just as you can't be sure that your's has been an actual "bloom," even if it takes on the appearance of one.  A large enough bacterial bloom though, can deplete the dissolved oxygen, causing distress to the fish and even the chance for fish loss if the circumstances are more pronounced.  If it's an actual heterotrophic bacteria bloom, fish loss can be experienced when the influx of organophosphates in the tap water increases to a greater level than had been reached in the past, this higher level being capable of promoting an all-encompassing and sufficiently heavy bloom as to cause a bacterial "crash" and with it the suffocation of fish.  If the addition of these organic compounds in the tap water never reach such proportions, then no, it won't cause the fish and harm, but there's no way of knowing when it will -- if this is the root of the problem -- and since we don't know yet for sure whether organophosphates are even present and causing bacteria to multiply in large populations, it remains a concern until the cause of the cloudiness is found.  If John is having the identical problem as you're having, and just like your's, the problem will not get any worse nor cause the fish any stress over the years, then it may well be of no concern -- just as you're questioning it -- but without knowing more about John's problem and/or if it's the same thing you're seeing, it will still remain a concern because of its (unknown) potential.  Hopefully, whenever it does occur in John's tank(s) in the future, it will always be a non-issue, but that remains to be seen.


    Group: AquaticLife Message: 56242 From: Terri Ferrier Date: 11/1/2014
    Subject: Re: Bacterial Bloom?
    AOL Email

    Our well is a private well, not in a farming district. The cloudiness happened immediately as I was refilling the tank.
    The tanks are much better today.  The 75 gal is almost normal.  The 110, just slightly cloudy.  The 36, much better, I can see details at the back of the tank today.

     

    I really think it's my water, just can't figure why it clouds up sometimes and not others.  When the well was put in many years ago and the water tested, we were told that a hardness of 10 was very hard water.  Our water measured 31.  Over the years it's gone down to 27.  Even with a softener, the water is never really soft and the hard water deposits on everything is a constant battle.

     

    Terri

     


    From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
    Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2014 8:06 AM
    To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
    Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Bacterial Bloom?

     

    Terri,

     

    As cloudiness is an infrequent issue, and as each aquarium is at least slightly different from the next -- even those in the same fish room -- it's very odd that you should have this same issue in all three tanks at the same time . . . unless it isn't your tanks that are the cause but the water itself that you're adding.  Do you have a small spare tank lying around, such as one always recommended to have as a hospital or quarantine tank?  If so, just try filling it with your well water to see if it clouds up on its own.  Looks like you're not adding anything else to your aquariums as I'm sure you would have mentioned that here, so we can rule out any other "chemicals" in your water except what might be in your well water.

     

    Just because you have well water does not mean that it can't have some of the same organophosphates that were discussed with John's problem, especially if you live in a farming district, and especially if your well water is from a municipal source (private wells can still have these compounds too though, if there are farms in the area).  You haven't stated whether this cloudiness occurred right after adding the fresh well water, or whether it developed over several hours.  This could help point the way to the answer.

     

    Ray

      


    Group: AquaticLife Message: 56243 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 11/1/2014
    Subject: Re: Bacterial Bloom?
    Hi Ray,

    Sorry for my late response-I've not had time to sit down & go through my
    emails for a couple of days. Ray-I've attached some .jpeg versions of my
    water quality report so hopefully you can get a better idea of what my
    water is like now. Perhaps yourself or someone else may just spot something
    there that is significant.

    I've got a phosphate test kit now, made by Columbo-a company I had not been
    aware of before but it seems they get some good reviews & indeed the test
    kit itself is excellent using 10ml of water instead of the more usual 5 so
    hopefully this will bring in more accurate results. I think these blooms
    are occurring only once every few months or so-that's how infrequent they
    are & as I mentioned they don't seem to correspond with anything that is
    going on in or around the tank. I would also say that they don't even seem
    to happen between any measurable time period, I can recall two happening
    within a week ages ago but usually they just happen out of the blue.
    Another factor about this, if it were a heterotrophic bloom that would
    lower the dissolved oxygen yet my oxygen levels appear to remain stable at
    between 5 & 8 all the time & i have tested that when there is a bloom
    taking place.


    Joe-you are correct, these blooms never affect my fish in any way
    whatsoever that I can tell-their behaviour, feeding & general friendliness
    towards me is exactly the same. At this stage it is very unlikely that this
    condition will adversely affect the fish because it has been ongoing for so
    long now.

    Just to play Devil's Advocate-I wonder if this phenomenon is microscopic
    suspended bubbles from switching my pumps back on? That would explain why
    it has dissipated by the next day.

    Terri-I wonder if your pH is of any relevance to your or my blooms? The
    reason being I also have hard water but it only goes up to 8 & is often
    more like 7.8. If your tanks are established then you should not be getting
    any Nitrite or ammonia readings so that is odd when you do a 50% water
    change & get Ammo & NO2 results from a previously zero result. Are they
    heavily stocked? Changing the subject a little-it may be worth mentioning
    that I sometimes get 'ghost' readings when I do water tests-that is I may
    do an NO3 test & get zero when I have an established tank with 3 big fish
    in. When I get any results I am not expecting I always retest & then I will
    get something along the lines of 30 for NO3.

    John*<o)))<*





    On 1 November 2014 14:43, 'Terri Ferrier' terriferrier@...
    [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

    >
    >
    > Our well is a private well, not in a farming district. The cloudiness
    > happened immediately as I was refilling the tank.
    > The tanks are much better today. The 75 gal is almost normal. The 110,
    > just slightly cloudy. The 36, much better, I can see details at the back
    > of the tank today.
    >
    >
    >
    > I really think it's my water, just can't figure why it clouds up sometimes
    > and not others. When the well was put in many years ago and the water
    > tested, we were told that a hardness of 10 was very hard water. Our water
    > measured 31. Over the years it's gone down to 27. Even with a softener,
    > the water is never really soft and the hard water deposits on everything is
    > a constant battle.
    >
    >
    >
    > Terri
    >
    >
    > ------------------------------
    >
    > *From:* AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
    > *Sent:* Saturday, November 01, 2014 8:06 AM
    > *To:* AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
    > *Subject:* Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Bacterial Bloom?
    >
    >
    >
    > Terri,
    >
    >
    >
    > As cloudiness is an infrequent issue, and as each aquarium is at least
    > slightly different from the next -- even those in the same fish room --
    > it's very odd that you should have this same issue in all three tanks at
    > the same time . . . unless it isn't your tanks that are the cause but the
    > water itself that you're adding. Do you have a small spare tank lying
    > around, such as one always recommended to have as a hospital or quarantine
    > tank? If so, just try filling it with your well water to see if it clouds
    > up on its own. Looks like you're not adding anything else to your
    > aquariums as I'm sure you would have mentioned that here, so we can rule
    > out any other "chemicals" in your water except what might be in your well
    > water.
    >
    >
    >
    > Just because you have well water does not mean that it can't have some of
    > the same organophosphates that were discussed with John's problem,
    > especially if you live in a farming district, and especially if your well
    > water is from a municipal source (private wells can still have these
    > compounds too though, if there are farms in the area). You haven't stated
    > whether this cloudiness occurred right after adding the fresh well water,
    > or whether it developed over several hours. This could help point the way
    > to the answer.
    >
    >
    >
    > Ray
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >


    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    Group: AquaticLife Message: 56244 From: sevenspringss Date: 11/1/2014
    Subject: Re: Bacterial Bloom?
    AOL Email
    Terri,
     
    I'd suggest you test for phosphate in you well water, even though you're not in a farming area.  As this cloudiness happens immediately after your added fresh well water, I don't believe it's a reaction to anything in your tanks -- although filling an empty (spare) quarantine tank will clearly -- no pun intended -- show you if this new-water mix with your tank water creates any reaction or not.  If an empty tank shows up as being cloudy right after you fill it, then we know that no reaction to other water is going on.  Also, as bacteria take some time to multiply -- even fast growing bacteria like the heterotrophs that were discussed -- they can be ruled out as blooming in your aquarium, but with possible organic contaminants in your well water, they could still be multiplying there.  If this is what's happening, it could be explained when it happens periodically as the organic nutrients needed by them vary from time to time.  Differing amounts of rainwater at different times to seep down to the water table in different amounts and at different times, having the capacity to carry with it varying amounts of these organics at these times.  A hardness of 10 o is hard, but is not very hard.  I have to guess that the other numbers (31 and 27) you give are ppm (parts per million)?
     
     
    My tap water is 11 o Hardness and it doesn't leave large deposits on anything.  If it did, I'd expect to see it on the glasswear after it came out of the dishwasher.  Getting back to your hardness test numbers, I'll wait for your answer in describing what the 31 and 27 represent.  If they're ppm, it would indicate your water is quite soft, but if it's degrees of Hardness, that's EXTREMELY hard, with the lower number (27) being over 480 ppm. 
     
    Ray
     
     
    In a message dated 11/1/2014 9:43:52 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
     

    Our well is a private well, not in a farming district. The cloudiness happened immediately as I was refilling the tank.
    The tanks are much better today.  The 75 gal is almost normal.  The 110, just slightly cloudy.  The 36, much better, I can see details at the back of the tank today.

    I really think it's my water, just can't figure why it clouds up sometimes and not others.  When the well was put in many years ago and the water tested, we were told that a hardness of 10 was very hard water.  Our water measured 31.  Over the years it's gone down to 27.  Even with a softener, the water is never really soft and the hard water deposits on everything is a constant battle.

    Terri


    From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
    Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2014 8:06 AM
    To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
    Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Bacterial Bloom?

    Terri,

    As cloudiness is an infrequent issue, and as each aquarium is at least slightly different from the next -- even those in the same fish room -- it's very odd that you should have this same issue in all three tanks at the same time . . . unless it isn't your tanks that are the cause but the water itself that you're adding.  Do you have a small spare tank lying around, such as one always recommended to have as a hospital or quarantine tank?  If so, just try filling it with your well water to see if it clouds up on its own.  Looks like you're not adding anything else to your aquariums as I'm sure you would have mentioned that here, so we can rule out any other "chemicals" in your water except what might be in your well water.

    Just because you have well water does not mean that it can't have some of the same organophosphates that were discussed with John's problem, especially if you live in a farming district, and especially if your well water is from a municipal source (private wells can still have these compounds too though, if there are farms in the area).  You haven't stated whether this cloudiness occurred right after adding the fresh well water, or whether it developed over several hours.  This could help point the way to the answer.

    Ray

      


    Group: AquaticLife Message: 56245 From: Terri Ferrier Date: 11/1/2014
    Subject: Re: Bacterial Bloom?
    AOL Email

    That is a thought, about the rainwater carrying organics down to the water table.  We go through bouts of severe drought for months.  Then recently, in the last month or so, we've had rain.  It might even have something to do with the depth of the wells.  Most people around here have 60-70' wells.  We have two wells.  One is at 120' and the other is at 160'

     

    The numbers were given to me by the water softening company that performed one simple test back years ago.  So I'd have to say it's degree of hardness.  Another company came out a few months ago and did several more comprehensive tests and I assume was a ppm test that gave a result of 22.   Like I said, it's extremely hard water.  Without a softener system, my dishwasher is useless.  Not a single dish will come clean.  When we first moved here, we went through 3 icemakers in 3 years.  After the last one, I refused to get another icemaker until we installed a small RO unit just for the refrigerator.  We did that and still using the same icemaker 9 years later.  We've replaced so many faucets, fixtures and hosebibs over the years, I've lost count.  We have to replace our propane water heater ever 4-5 years.

    Even using softened water, I get hard water deposits on my filters and the edges of my aquariums.  I'll try to post a pic of one of my tanks.

     

    Terri


    From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com ]
    Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2014 1:50 PM
    To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
    Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Bacterial Bloom?

     




    Terri,

     

    I'd suggest you test for phosphate in you well water, even though you're not in a farming area.  As this cloudiness happens immediately after your added fresh well water, I don't believe it's a reaction to anything in your tanks -- although filling an empty (spare) quarantine tank will clearly -- no pun intended -- show you if this new-water mix with your tank water creates any reaction or not.  If an empty tank shows up as being cloudy right after you fill it, then we know that no reaction to other water is going on.  Also, as bacteria take some time to multiply -- even fast growing bacteria like the heterotrophs that were discussed -- they can be ruled out as blooming in your aquarium, but with possible organic contaminants in your well water, they could still be multiplying there.  If this is what's happening, it could be explained when it happens periodically as the organic nutrients needed by them vary from time to time.  Differing amounts of rainwater at different times to seep down to the water table in different amounts and at different times, having the capacity to carry with it varying amounts of these organics at these times.  A hardness of 10 o is hard, but is not very hard.  I have to guess that the other numbers (31 and 27) you give are ppm (parts per million)?

     

     

    My tap water is 11 o Hardness and it doesn't leave large deposits on anything.  If it did, I'd expect to see it on the glasswear after it came out of the dishwasher.  Getting back to your hardness test numbers, I'll wait for your answer in describing what the 31 and 27 represent.  If they're ppm, it would indicate your water is quite soft, but if it's degrees of Hardness, that's EXTREMELY hard, with the lower number (27) being over 480 ppm. 

     

    Ray

     

     

    In a message dated 11/1/2014 9:43:52 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

     

    Our well is a private well, not in a farming district. The cloudiness happened immediately as I was refilling the tank.
    The tanks are much better today.  The 75 gal is almost normal.  The 110, just slightly cloudy.  The 36, much better, I can see details at the back of the tank today.

    I really think it's my water, just can't figure why it clouds up sometimes and not others.  When the well was put in many years ago and the water tested, we were told that a hardness of 10 was very hard water.  Our water measured 31.  Over the years it's gone down to 27.  Even with a softener, the water is never really soft and the hard water deposits on everything is a constant battle.

    Terri


    From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com ]
    Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2014 8:06 AM
    To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
    Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Bacterial Bloom?

    Terri,

    As cloudiness is an infrequent issue, and as each aquarium is at least slightly different from the next -- even those in the same fish room -- it's very odd that you should have this same issue in all three tanks at the same time . . . unless it isn't your tanks that are the cause but the water itself that you're adding.  Do you have a small spare tank lying around, such as one always recommended to have as a hospital or quarantine tank?  If so, just try filling it with your well water to see if it clouds up on its own.  Looks like you're not adding anything else to your aquariums as I'm sure you would have mentioned that here, so we can rule out any other "chemicals" in your water except what might be in your well water.

    Just because you have well water does not mean that it can't have some of the same organophosphates that were discussed with John's problem, especially if you live in a farming district, and especially if your well water is from a municipal source (private wells can still have these compounds too though, if there are farms in the area).  You haven't stated whether this cloudiness occurred right after adding the fresh well water, or whether it developed over several hours.  This could help point the way to the answer.

    Ray

      


    Group: AquaticLife Message: 56246 From: Terri Ferrier Date: 11/1/2014
    Subject: Re: Bacterial Bloom?
    AOL Email

    I just added an album to the photo section on the yahoo group page titled Cloudy water and Hard water.  The first pic is the top of my 36 gallon tank taken after I had wiped the top off.  The second shows the same tank much improved over yesterday but you can still see the whitish cloudy look to the water.  This tank is normally hi-def crystal clear.

     

    Terri

     

    Group: AquaticLife Message: 56247 From: sevenspringss Date: 11/1/2014
    Subject: Re: Bacterial Bloom?
    AOL Email
    Terri,
     
    I was going to ask you how deep your well(s) is/are.  After it rains, it may not reach your water table for weeks, depending on how much rock there is down deep.  But after a hard rain, you may be able to see a pattern as to how long after your water turns cloudy.  If this period is consistent, you should be able to contribute it to the rainfall you had several weeks back.
     
    Covering degrees of Hardness and PPM.  1 o (one degree) of Hardness = 17.8 ppm.  So, if your ppm test was only 22, this would equal only 1.23 o Hardness.  The number 27 -- if it were ppm -- would only be 1.52 o Hsrdness and the number 31 -- if it were ppm -- would only be 1.74 o Hardness; not even 2 o Hardness -- extremely soft.  Those numbers must be degrees of Hardness, not ppm.  In which case, 22 o Hardness would = 392 ppm, 27 o Hardness would = 481 ppm and 31 o Hardness would = 552 ppm.  that's well over the 10 o Hardness you stated earlier, thast you were told.  that 10 o Hardness = only 178 ppm, only moderately hard.  It's doubtful that you have only 10 o Hardness.  You have extremely hard water.  I don't believe that should have anything to do with the cloudiness though, but I would still suggest you fill an empty tank to see what the results are.
     
    Ray
        
     
    In a message dated 11/1/2014 2:18:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
     

    That is a thought, about the rainwater carrying organics down to the water table.  We go through bouts of severe drought for months.  Then recently, in the last month or so, we've had rain.  It might even have something to do with the depth of the wells.  Most people around here have 60-70' wells.  We have two wells.  One is at 120' and the other is at 160'

    The numbers were given to me by the water softening company that performed one simple test back years ago.  So I'd have to say it's degree of hardness.  Another company came out a few months ago and did several more comprehensive tests and I assume was a ppm test that gave a result of 22.   Like I said, it's extremely hard water.  Without a softener system, my dishwasher is useless.  Not a single dish will come clean.  When we first moved here, we went through 3 icemakers in 3 years.  After the last one, I refused to get another icemaker until we installed a small RO unit just for the refrigerator.  We did that and still using the same icemaker 9 years later.  We've replaced so many faucets, fixtures and hosebibs over the years, I've lost count.  We have to replace our propane water heater ever 4-5 years.

    Even using softened water, I get hard water deposits on my filters and the edges of my aquariums.  I'll try to post a pic of one of my tanks.

    Terri


    From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com ]
    Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2014 1:50 PM
    To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
    Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Bacterial Bloom?




    Terri,

    I'd suggest you test for phosphate in you well water, even though you're not in a farming area.  As this cloudiness happens immediately after your added fresh well water, I don't believe it's a reaction to anything in your tanks -- although filling an empty (spare) quarantine tank will clearly -- no pun intended -- show you if this new-water mix with your tank water creates any reaction or not.  If an empty tank shows up as being cloudy right after you fill it, then we know that no reaction to other water is going on.  Also, as bacteria take some time to multiply -- even fast growing bacteria like the heterotrophs that were discussed -- they can be ruled out as blooming in your aquarium, but with possible organic contaminants in your well water, they could still be multiplying there.  If this is what's happening, it could be explained when it happens periodically as the organic nutrients needed by them vary from time to time.  Differing amounts of rainwater at different times to seep down to the water table in different amounts and at different times, having the capacity to carry with it varying amounts of these organics at these times.  A hardness of 10 o is hard, but is not very hard.  I have to guess that the other numbers (31 and 27) you give are ppm (parts per million)?

    My tap water is 11 o Hardness and it doesn't leave large deposits on anything.  If it did, I'd expect to see it on the glasswear after it came out of the dishwasher.  Getting back to your hardness test numbers, I'll wait for your answer in describing what the 31 and 27 represent.  If they're ppm, it would indicate your water is quite soft, but if it's degrees of Hardness, that's EXTREMELY hard, with the lower number (27) being over 480 ppm. 

    Ray

    In a message dated 11/1/2014 9:43:52 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

     

    Our well is a private well, not in a farming district. The cloudiness happened immediately as I was refilling the tank.
    The tanks are much better today.  The 75 gal is almost normal.  The 110, just slightly cloudy.  The 36, much better, I can see details at the back of the tank today.

    I really think it's my water, just can't figure why it clouds up sometimes and not others.  When the well was put in many years ago and the water tested, we were told that a hardness of 10 was very hard water.  Our water measured 31.  Over the years it's gone down to 27.  Even with a softener, the water is never really soft and the hard water deposits on everything is a constant battle.

    Terri


    From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com ]
    Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2014 8:06 AM
    To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
    Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Bacterial Bloom?

    Terri,

    As cloudiness is an infrequent issue, and as each aquarium is at least slightly different from the next -- even those in the same fish room -- it's very odd that you should have this same issue in all three tanks at the same time . . . unless it isn't your tanks that are the cause but the water itself that you're adding.  Do you have a small spare tank lying around, such as one always recommended to have as a hospital or quarantine tank?  If so, just try filling it with your well water to see if it clouds up on its own.  Looks like you're not adding anything else to your aquariums as I'm sure you would have mentioned that here, so we can rule out any other "chemicals" in your water except what might be in your well water.

    Just because you have well water does not mean that it can't have some of the same organophosphates that were discussed with John's problem, especially if you live in a farming district, and especially if your well water is from a municipal source (private wells can still have these compounds too though, if there are farms in the area).  You haven't stated whether this cloudiness occurred right after adding the fresh well water, or whether it developed over several hours.  This could help point the way to the answer.

    Ray

      


    Group: AquaticLife Message: 56248 From: Terri Ferrier Date: 11/1/2014
    Subject: Re: Bacterial Bloom?
    AOL Email

    Ok, I just completed another 50% water change on all 3 tanks.  All are now 0 ammonia and 0 nitrites.  Nitrates are lower in all 3.  Had a thought and tested my tap water for nitrates and got a measure of 10.  That has never happened.  I've tested several times and got 5 one time a year ago.  The rest of the time, it was 0.  The 36 gal is down to 10, the 75 and 110 are down to 40.  The strangest thing is the PH is lower in all 3 tanks. And I double checked them.  The 36 gal went from 8.4 to 7.4.  The 75 showed the least change 8.2 to 8.0. and the 110 gal went from 8.2 to 7.4  I've never had a ph reading less than 8.0 and normal get 8.2-8.4. 

     

    Either something is wacky with my water or my test kit is no good.  I don't know if they can go bad or expire or not.  It was bought in May 2013.  I've ordered another kit to see if I get anything different.

     

    Terri

     


    From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com ]
    Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2014 2:55 PM
    To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
    Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Bacterial Bloom?

     

    Terri,

     

    I was going to ask you how deep your well(s) is/are.  After it rains, it may not reach your water table for weeks, depending on how much rock there is down deep.  But after a hard rain, you may be able to see a pattern as to how long after your water turns cloudy.  If this period is consistent, you should be able to contribute it to the rainfall you had several weeks back.

     

    Covering degrees of Hardness and PPM.  1 o (one degree) of Hardness = 17.8 ppm.  So, if your ppm test was only 22, this would equal only 1.23 o Hardness.  The number 27 -- if it were ppm -- would only be 1.52 o Hsrdness and the number 31 -- if it were ppm -- would only be 1.74 o Hardness; not even 2 o Hardness -- extremely soft.  Those numbers must be degrees of Hardness, not ppm.  In which case, 22 o Hardness would = 392 ppm, 27 o Hardness would = 481 ppm and 31 o Hardness would = 552 ppm.  that's well over the 10 o Hardness you stated earlier, thast you were told.  that 10 o Hardness = only 178 ppm, only moderately hard.  It's doubtful that you have only 10 o Hardness.  You have extremely hard water.  I don't believe that should have anything to do with the cloudiness though, but I would still suggest you fill an empty tank to see what the results are.

     

    Ray

        

     

     


    Group: AquaticLife Message: 56249 From: sevenspringss Date: 11/1/2014
    Subject: Re: Bacterial Bloom?
    AOL Email
    Terri,
     
    Since you said your water is VERY hard and the pH is always 8.2 -- 8.4, I took this as being constant.  Before this, I was about to ask you if the pH was fluctuating, until you said how deep your wells are.  My well is not that deep and the pH will fluctuate but no more than 0.4 maximum when it does, and then, it will take months to do so.  If it does fluctuate, it's usually no more than a difference of 0.2 and usually no more than 0.3 and this is seasonal as the rainfall differs.  A deep well like yours tends to remain more constant and a change of a full 1.0 is extremely unusual, perhaps almost impossible.  I would suspect your testing reagent as most have an expiration date.  If it doesn't it should be changed periodically anyway, and while a term of 18 months should still be good, it is stretching it when considering you don't know how long it was on the store's shelf.  Refrigerating it, as you'd do for fish meds,  should extend its life, but I prefer not to store test kits this way as I feel the chemicals in them may not be as sensitive when they're so cold.  If you find out with a new test kit, that your pH has come down, this may have something to do with the water being cloudy.  When was the last time you tested your pH and got the higher readings you quoted?  Please don't expect any replies from me tomorrow until after I get back from a fish auction in the southern part of my state tomorrow evening.
     
    Ray 
     
     
    In a message dated 11/1/2014 7:25:37 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
     

    Ok, I just completed another 50% water change on all 3 tanks.  All are now 0 ammonia and 0 nitrites.  Nitrates are lower in all 3.  Had a thought and tested my tap water for nitrates and got a measure of 10.  That has never happened.  I've tested several times and got 5 one time a year ago.  The rest of the time, it was 0.  The 36 gal is down to 10, the 75 and 110 are down to 40.  The strangest thing is the PH is lower in all 3 tanks. And I double checked them.  The 36 gal went from 8.4 to 7.4.  The 75 showed the least change 8.2 to 8.0. and the 110 gal went from 8.2 to 7.4  I've never had a ph reading less than 8.0 and normal get 8.2-8.4. 

    Either something is wacky with my water or my test kit is no good.  I don't know if they can go bad or expire or not.  It was bought in May 2013.  I've ordered another kit to see if I get anything different.

    Terri


    From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com ]
    Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2014 2:55 PM
    To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
    Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Bacterial Bloom?

    Terri,

    I was going to ask you how deep your well(s) is/are.  After it rains, it may not reach your water table for weeks, depending on how much rock there is down deep.  But after a hard rain, you may be able to see a pattern as to how long after your water turns cloudy.  If this period is consistent, you should be able to contribute it to the rainfall you had several weeks back.

    Covering degrees of Hardness and PPM.  1 o (one degree) of Hardness = 17.8 ppm.  So, if your ppm test was only 22, this would equal only 1.23 o Hardness.  The number 27 -- if it were ppm -- would only be 1.52 o Hsrdness and the number 31 -- if it were ppm -- would only be 1.74 o Hardness; not even 2 o Hardness -- extremely soft.  Those numbers must be degrees of Hardness, not ppm.  In which case, 22 o Hardness would = 392 ppm, 27 o Hardness would = 481 ppm and 31 o Hardness would = 552 ppm.  that's well over the 10 o Hardness you stated earlier, thast you were told.  that 10 o Hardness = only 178 ppm, only moderately hard.  It's doubtful that you have only 10 o Hardness.  You have extremely hard water.  I don't believe that should have anything to do with the cloudiness though, but I would still suggest you fill an empty tank to see what the results are.

    Ray

        


    Group: AquaticLife Message: 56250 From: Terri Ferrier Date: 11/1/2014
    Subject: Re: Bacterial Bloom?
    AOL Email

    Most recently I just tested the PH last week and yesterday and got my usual readings 8.2-8.4.  I haven't tested the PH every week, because for so long it was the same reading, every single time I tested.  Even yesterday.  That's why I was so surprised at the readings today.  I've never gotten readings that low so I tested them again and got the same.  I'll let you know the readings from the new test kit as soon as it gets here on Tuesday.  Now I'm starting to wonder about the nitrates levels also.

     

    Terri

     


    From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com ]
    Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2014 10:27 PM
    To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
    Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Bacterial Bloom?

     

    Terri,

     

    Since you said your water is VERY hard and the pH is always 8.2 -- 8.4, I took this as being constant.  Before this, I was about to ask you if the pH was fluctuating, until you said how deep your wells are.  My well is not that deep and the pH will fluctuate but no more than 0.4 maximum when it does, and then, it will take months to do so.  If it does fluctuate, it's usually no more than a difference of 0.2 and usually no more than 0.3 and this is seasonal as the rainfall differs.  A deep well like yours tends to remain more constant and a change of a full 1.0 is extremely unusual, perhaps almost impossible.  I would suspect your testing reagent as most have an expiration date.  If it doesn't it should be changed periodically anyway, and while a term of 18 months should still be good, it is stretching it when considering you don't know how long it was on the store's shelf.  Refrigerating it, as you'd do for fish meds,  should extend its life, but I prefer not to store test kits this way as I feel the chemicals in them may not be as sensitive when they're so cold.  If you find out with a new test kit, that your pH has come down, this may have something to do with the water being cloudy.  When was the last time you tested your pH and got the higher readings you quoted?  Please don't expect any replies from me tomorrow until after I get back from a fish auction in the southern part of my state tomorrow evening.

     

    Ray 

     

     


    Group: AquaticLife Message: 56251 From: sevenspringss Date: 11/1/2014
    Subject: Re: Bacterial Bloom?
    AOL Email
    Terri,
     
    With your getting test results of pH 8.2 -- 8.4 as recently as last week, it wouldn't appear that your test reagent would go bad in just one week's time.  You really shouldn't have to test your water every week, as it's not expected to change that fast.  If you haven't had anything much above zero readings for your nitrate until now, I too have to wonder what's happening to your water as it's highly unusual for both of these parameters to change so differently -- although the elevated nitrate can be associated with the pH drop.  Nitrate creates nitric acid in water, which is why the process of nitrification in an aquarium results in acidity.  If one doesn't change out their water via PWC's, they'll find this acidity building up in their tank, with the resultant pH drop after a while.  The puzzle now becomes, where is this nitrate coming from(?).  First of all, has there been any unusual change in your rainfall pattern recently -- either much more rain or much less rain?  One other thing, be sure your test vials are clean, although I'm fairly sure they are.
     
    Later,
     
    Ray. 
     
     
    In a message dated 11/1/2014 10:51:05 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
     

    Most recently I just tested the PH last week and yesterday and got my usual readings 8.2-8.4.  I haven't tested the PH every week, because for so long it was the same reading, every single time I tested.  Even yesterday.  That's why I was so surprised at the readings today.  I've never gotten readings that low so I tested them again and got the same.  I'll let you know the readings from the new test kit as soon as it gets here on Tuesday.  Now I'm starting to wonder about the nitrates levels also.

    Terri


    From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com ]
    Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2014 10:27 PM
    To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
    Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Bacterial Bloom?

    Terri,

    Since you said your water is VERY hard and the pH is always 8.2 -- 8.4, I took this as being constant.  Before this, I was about to ask you if the pH was fluctuating, until you said how deep your wells are.  My well is not that deep and the pH will fluctuate but no more than 0.4 maximum when it does, and then, it will take months to do so.  If it does fluctuate, it's usually no more than a difference of 0.2 and usually no more than 0.3 and this is seasonal as the rainfall differs.  A deep well like yours tends to remain more constant and a change of a full 1.0 is extremely unusual, perhaps almost impossible.  I would suspect your testing reagent as most have an expiration date.  If it doesn't it should be changed periodically anyway, and while a term of 18 months should still be good, it is stretching it when considering you don't know how long it was on the store's shelf.  Refrigerating it, as you'd do for fish meds,  should extend its life, but I prefer not to store test kits this way as I feel the chemicals in them may not be as sensitive when they're so cold.  If you find out with a new test kit, that your pH has come down, this may have something to do with the water being cloudy.  When was the last time you tested your pH and got the higher readings you quoted?  Please don't expect any replies from me tomorrow until after I get back from a fish auction in the southern part of my state tomorrow evening.

    Ray 


    Group: AquaticLife Message: 56252 From: Terri Ferrier Date: 11/1/2014
    Subject: Re: Bacterial Bloom?
    AOL Email

    No, I've always had to watch the nitrates.  They usually stay around 40 but they can spike higher (80+) quickly.  I don't have plants, so no plant decay.  I never see food left laying around the tank.  The community tank is fed flakes with some bloodworms for the goby dragon and ghost knife fish.  The 2 large cichlid tanks are fed crisps and pellets.  They gobble it up pretty quick. I just removed all the gravel in the community tank and replaced it with sand but I regularly vacuumed the gravel.  The other 2 tanks have always had sand.  A couple of tanks, I'm pushing the limit on the number of fish but I'm pretty regular with weekly water changes with an occasional every other week.

     

    As for rainfall, no rain all summer until September which was fairly wet, only 2-3 good soaking rains, then nothing in October.  And yes, my test vials are rinsed thoroughly after each use.

     

    Terri

     


    From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com ]
    Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2014 11:52 PM
    To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
    Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Bacterial Bloom?

     




    Terri,

     

    With your getting test results of pH 8.2 -- 8.4 as recently as last week, it wouldn't appear that your test reagent would go bad in just one week's time.  You really shouldn't have to test your water every week, as it's not expected to change that fast.  If you haven't had anything much above zero readings for your nitrate until now, I too have to wonder what's happening to your water as it's highly unusual for both of these parameters to change so differently -- although the elevated nitrate can be associated with the pH drop.  Nitrate creates nitric acid in water, which is why the process of nitrification in an aquarium results in acidity.  If one doesn't change out their water via PWC's, they'll find this acidity building up in their tank, with the resultant pH drop after a while.  The puzzle now becomes, where is this nitrate coming from(?).  First of all, has there been any unusual change in your rainfall pattern recently -- either much more rain or much less rain?  One other thing, be sure your test vials are clean, although I'm fairly sure they are.

     

    Later,

     

    Ray. 

     

     

     


    Group: AquaticLife Message: 56253 From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: 11/3/2014
    Subject: AquaticLife Yahoo! Fish Group ~ Founded: Nov 4, 2002, Tuesday, 04 No
    Attachments :
      "AquaticLife Yahoo! Fish Group ~ Founded: Nov 4, 2002" reminder
      When
      Tuesday, 04 November 2014
      12:00 AM to 12:00 AM
      (GMT) Greenwich Mean Time - Dublin / Edinburgh / Lisbon / London
      Where
      http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/AquaticLife/message/31
      Notes
      Add a Friend @ MySpace.com/AquaticLifeGroup ~ AquaticLife ~ the #1 Yahoo! Fish Group, was Originally Named "FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium" Group Name Officially Changed on: Friday, January 28th, 2005 ~ Moderator Activity 1771-1800 of 21521 Jan 28, 2005 8:36 pm Edit (Changed name: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium -> AquaticLife) by tropicalfishman ~ Message #8138 New Group Name - AquaticLife This message is to Notify all members of the group address change. Previous Group Name: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium New Group Name: AquaticLife New Email Address: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com New Web Address: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AquaticLife Please update any Links and Bookmarks with the new name. Thank You ~ Message #8137 [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium group name change Hello, The moderator of the FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium group has changed the group's name to AquaticLife. This means that both the group's email address and the group home page location have changed. The group email address: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com The group home page location: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AquaticLife If you have links which point to this group or an address book entry for the group, you should update them, as the old addresses will no longer work. Regards, Yahoo! Groups Customer Care ~ Message #8140 Fri Jan 28, 2005 8:36 pm [AquaticLife] FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium group name/addresses have changed Hello, The moderator of the FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium group has changed the group's name. ~ Jan 29, 2005 3:21 am Changed category by tropicalfishman ~ Message #8145 New Group Category: Fish We are now the Largest of all Yahoo! Fish Groups. Old Category - Top > Hobbies & Crafts > Hobbies > Aquariums NEW Category - Top > Science > Biology > Animals > Marine Life > Fish
      From
      AquaticLife   Calendar
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56254 From: Angela Cancilla Herschel Date: 11/3/2014
      Subject: * Fluorescent Stingrays & Sea Horses & more!

      Absorb blue light  & emit , red , green & orange light.

      Fluorescent Stingrays and Sea Horses . ScienceTake w/ James Gorman 


      http://youtu.be/-mj9TEuQxGY


      Ciao, Angela Cancilla Herschel in SoCal
      Being kind is more important ...than being important ~
      Wildlife warrior volunteer at ~
      California Wildlife Center:
      Amazon Wish List:

      Sent from my iPhone

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56255 From: Angela Cancilla Herschel Date: 11/23/2014
      Subject: Puffer Fish Creates Ocean Floor Crop Circles

      Anyone with a Puffer that designs on the fish tank bottom too ?

      Amazing Little Puffer Fish Creates Ocean Floor Crop Circles to attract a female 


      <http://youtu.be/yaPmYYWsixU>
      _______________________________________________
      Ciao, Angela Cancilla Herschel in SoCal

      Being kind is more important ..than being important. ~

      California Wildlife Center,volunteer wildlife warrior ~
      www.cawildlife.org
      Amazon wish list;  : http://amzn.com/w/2432ONM8ST9AK
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56256 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 11/23/2014
      Subject: Re: Puffer Fish Creates Ocean Floor Crop Circles
      That's incredible-thanks very much for posting.

        John<o)))<

      On 23 November 2014 at 22:39, Angela Cancilla Herschel angelasfeathers@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      Anyone with a Puffer that designs on the fish tank bottom too ?

      Amazing Little Puffer Fish Creates Ocean Floor Crop Circles to attract a female 


      <http://youtu.be/yaPmYYWsixU>
      _______________________________________________
      Ciao, Angela Cancilla Herschel in SoCal

      Being kind is more important ..than being important. ~

      California Wildlife Center,volunteer wildlife warrior ~
      www.cawildlife.org
      Amazon wish list;  : http://amzn.com/w/2432ONM8ST9AK


      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56257 From: deenerzz Date: 11/23/2014
      Subject: Re: Puffer Fish Creates Ocean Floor Crop Circles
      There are Rift lake Cichlids that build bowers.

      Mike



      -----Original Message-----
      From: Angela Cancilla Herschel angelasfeathers@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
      To: AquaticLife fish ponds <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Sun, Nov 23, 2014 2:39 pm
      Subject: [AquaticLife] Puffer Fish Creates Ocean Floor Crop Circles

       
      Anyone with a Puffer that designs on the fish tank bottom too ?
      Amazing Little Puffer Fish Creates Ocean Floor Crop Circles to attract a female 

      <http://youtu.be/yaPmYYWsixU>
      _______________________________________________
      Ciao, Angela Cancilla Herschel in SoCal

      Being kind is more important ..than being important. ~

      California Wildlife Center,volunteer wildlife warrior ~
      www.cawildlife.org
      Amazon wish list;  : http://amzn.com/w/2432ONM8ST9AK
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56258 From: sevenspringss Date: 11/23/2014
      Subject: Re: Puffer Fish Creates Ocean Floor Crop Circles
      AOL Email
      CROP CIRCLES ???   Maybe these are alien fish from the planet "Atlantis," who've come here in water-filled saucers to create these out-of-the-world circles that can only be seen for what they are by looking down from the top of the aquarium.
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 11/23/2014 5:39:19 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Anyone with a Puffer that designs on the fish tank bottom too ?

      Amazing Little Puffer Fish Creates Ocean Floor Crop Circles to attract a female 


      <http://youtu.be/yaPmYYWsixU>
      _______________________________________________
      Ciao, Angela Cancilla Herschel in SoCal

      Being kind is more important ..than being important. ~

      California Wildlife Center,volunteer wildlife warrior ~
      www.cawildlife.org
      Amazon wish list;  : http://amzn.com/w/2432ONM8ST9AK

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56259 From: deenerzz Date: 11/23/2014
      Subject: Re: Puffer Fish Creates Ocean Floor Crop Circles
      I have read stranger thoughts om aliens  :0

      Mike



      -----Original Message-----
      From: sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
      To: AquaticLife <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Sun, Nov 23, 2014 6:06 pm
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Puffer Fish Creates Ocean Floor Crop Circles

       
      CROP CIRCLES ???   Maybe these are alien fish from the planet "Atlantis," who've come here in water-filled saucers to create these out-of-the-world circles that can only be seen for what they are by looking down from the top of the aquarium.
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 11/23/2014 5:39:19 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       
      Anyone with a Puffer that designs on the fish tank bottom too ?
      Amazing Little Puffer Fish Creates Ocean Floor Crop Circles to attract a female 

      <http://youtu.be/yaPmYYWsixU>
      _______________________________________________
      Ciao, Angela Cancilla Herschel in SoCal

      Being kind is more important ..than being important. ~

      California Wildlife Center,volunteer wildlife warrior ~
      www.cawildlife.org
      Amazon wish list;  : http://amzn.com/w/2432ONM8ST9AK
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56260 From: Angela Cancilla Herschel Date: 11/24/2014
      Subject: New: Using satellites to track and illuminate fishing industry typic
      Google has partnered with conservationists.
      Soon the partners will release a public map showing ship locations from just a few days ago, which will help identify—and hopefully help stop—illegal fishing (like a marine-protected reserves and reefs).

      <http://www.onearth.org/earthwire/there-are-lot-fishing-boats-sea?utm_source=fb&utm_medium=post&utm_campaign=socialmedia>
      _______________________________________________
      Ciao, Angela Cancilla Herschel in SoCal

      Being kind is more important ..than being important. ~

      California Wildlife Center,volunteer wildlife warrior ~
      www.cawildlife.org
      Amazon wish list;  : http://amzn.com/w/2432ONM8ST9AK
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56261 From: geodandrew Date: 12/8/2014
      Subject: Water?

      Hi my name is George, I just joined the group. I have been in and out of the aquarium hobby many times. I have had salt, reef, and freshwater aquariums over the years. Now I'm back in because of my son who is 7. We have been growing his tank size due to the fish which are Cichlids. Now up to a 37 gallon tank.

       

      My question is about RODI. Back in the day I used a RODI unit to get clean water for my tanks. Is this method still used today? We have been using water from a dehumidifier unit. The water coming from the unit has been extremely pure. But now that winter is here the unit is not producing any water. And because the house is so dry the tank in loosing a good amount through  evaporation. We have hard water with a lot of organic compounds in it. Is RODI still the way to go and if no what other method is used.

       

      PS I was dumb struck to find out that FAMA is no longer in production. 


      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56262 From: sevenspringss Date: 12/8/2014
      Subject: Re: Water?
      AOL Email
      Hi George,
       
      Welcome to the group; hope you enjoy your stay.  As you may already be aware, non of the Yahoo group are very active any longer as a lot of that has gone over to social media sites (Facebook, etc.),  So, don't be too surprised if you don't see many posts on other subjects.  We're always here to help though.  Getting to your question, I've never seen the abbreviation, "RODI" in all my years in the hobby.  Could just be I never ran across it and it's always been used, but you got one on me here -- unless you mean "RO" (reverse osmosis) unit.  As you're looking to replace your evaporated water from your tanks water column of hard water, I'm assuming this is what you mean. 
       
      Yes, reverse osmosis units are certainly still being used and will probably still have a use in this hobby for many years to come.  I don't advise using water from you dehumidifier as its coils may be of copper or of aluminum.  If those coils are of copper, you're adding a toxic metal to your tank each time you add water from this unit; a certain amount always dissolves in water devoid of elements.  This never evaporates and continues to build up over time.  Eventually, you will be losing fish and wondering why.  Plants and any invertebrates will go first.  If you have either of the latter and they're still healthy, then you may not even have copper coils, or the dissolved copper hasn't built up to a toxic point yet.  Aluminum is not very good for your fish either however, so try to find out what your dehumidifier has.
       
      Other than an R/O unit, you could use ion-exchange water softener pillows in your filter, although they'll replace the hardening mineral with sodium, as common table salt (sodium chloride) which is used to charge them.  You could also use bottled demineralized water if you know the process involved, or just a soft bottled drinking water.  All brands are different in their hardness and all locations have different brands; Highland Spring and Aqua-Pure are soft bottled waters, as examples.
       
      Noticing you have Cichlids, I need to ask what species you have, as African Rift Lake Cichlids require hard water.  Noticing too, you have organic compounds in your tap water, do you know which compounds they are?  If they're organic phosphates, you could use a phosphate remover in your filter -- if your fish need hard water.  Then you could just use your tap water.  Without knowing what kinds of Cichlids you have however, I can't recommend an R/O unit as your fish might not do well in it.  This (R/O) would be one way to go though, if you have South American and West African Cichlids. 
       
      Ray
            
       
      In a message dated 12/8/2014 12:24:04 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hi my name is George, I just joined the group. I have been in and out of the aquarium hobby many times. I have had salt, reef, and freshwater aquariums over the years. Now I'm back in because of my son who is 7. We have been growing his tank size due to the fish which are Cichlids. Now up to a 37 gallon tank.

       

      My question is about RODI. Back in the day I used a RODI unit to get clean water for my tanks. Is this method still used today? We have been using water from a dehumidifier unit. The water coming from the unit has been extremely pure. But now that winter is here the unit is not producing any water. And because the house is so dry the tank in loosing a good amount through  evaporation. We have hard water with a lot of organic compounds in it. Is RODI still the way to go and if no what other method is used.

       

      PS I was dumb struck to find out that FAMA is no longer in production. 


      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56263 From: Harry Leverett Date: 12/8/2014
      Subject: Re: Water?
      You brought up an interesting point about the copper coils on the dehumidifier  leaching  into the water. Would the house plumbing do the same?  Most household have copper water supplies.
      Got me curious now.

      Thanks
      H Harry L.

      Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56264 From: sevenspringss Date: 12/8/2014
      Subject: Re: Water?
      AOL Email
      Copper water pipes can be dangerous for fish, especially in new houses.  With age, it forms a patina, but it's all relative -- upon how old the house and plumbing is.  A lower pH and softer water (either one or both) will tend to pull out (dissolve) a bit of this copper too.  When in doubt, just let your faucet run a few minutes to flush out any water that was standing in your pipes.  If there was any appreciable amount of dissolved copper in your tap water, that's where it would be.  I know you can't do this with hot water as you'll drain it all out of your water heater before fresh water comes in from the street, but the major portion of changing water is cold anyway, with just enough hot water mixed in to get it to tank temperature.  There are copper aquarium test kits available if you're curious about your water.
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 12/8/2014 2:53:37 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      You brought up an interesting point about the copper coils on the dehumidifier  leaching  into the water. Would the house plumbing do the same?  Most household have copper water supplies.
      Got me curious now.

      Thanks
      H Harry L.

      Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56265 From: Harry Leverett Date: 12/8/2014
      Subject: Re: Water?
      That seems logical.
      Thanks again Ray
      Harry

      Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID


      "sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Copper water pipes can be dangerous for fish, especially in new houses.  With age, it forms a patina, but it's all relative -- upon how old the house and plumbing is.  A lower pH and softer water (either one or both) will tend to pull out (dissolve) a bit of this copper too.  When in doubt, just let your faucet run a few minutes to flush out any water that was standing in your pipes.  If there was any appreciable amount of dissolved copper in your tap water, that's where it would be.  I know you can't do this with hot water as you'll drain it all out of your water heater before fresh water comes in from the street, but the major portion of changing water is cold anyway, with just enough hot water mixed in to get it to tank temperature.  There are copper aquarium test kits available if you're curious about your water.
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 12/8/2014 2:53:37 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      You brought up an interesting point about the copper coils on the dehumidifier  leaching  into the water. Would the house plumbing do the same?  Most household have copper water supplies.
      Got me curious now.

      Thanks
      H Harry L.

      Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56266 From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c Date: 12/9/2014
      Subject: Re: Water?
      A few things I'd like to add to this conversation.
      1st, RODI refers to reverse osmosis deionized.  This does differ from straight RO by adding the deionizing filtration to the reverse osmosis process. 
      With that said, I'd like to point out that if using RODI or just RO or just DI water for softer water cichilds such as South/Central American cichlids, then some kind of mineral supplementation must be added to the water.  Using any water source that is devoid of mineral content will require supplementation of minerals for the health of the fish... they NEED some amount of mineral content for their bodies/organs to function properly.  The easiest way to do this would be to mix some tap water into the RO or RODI water and monitor the pH, GH, and KH levels until you have it where you need/want it for the health & safety of the fish.  Once the appropriate ratio is determined this is an easy and inexpensive option.  The other option would be to dose the clean water with something such as Discus Essentials, which is a balance of the minerals the fish need for good overall health.  (this product is not just for discus) 
      Not using a mineral supplementation source means the water will pull mineral content from the bodies of the fish which can lead to organ damage/shut down, weakened bones, and overall poor health and much shortened lifespan of the animals.  This also can mean an inability for invertebrates to form healthy exoskeletons. 

      The other thing I'd like to mention is about the copper... when testing for copper there are 2 different types of copper test kits available.  1 is for chelated and the other is for non chelated copper.  If testing copper levels due to copper pipes it's a good idea to test for both.  If testing for only one and the other is present, it won't show up, and this does make a difference for the animals as both can have an effect on overall animal health, especially invertebrates.

      Dawn 
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56267 From: sevenspringss Date: 12/9/2014
      Subject: Re: Water?
      AOL Email
      I understood George's purpose for these types of water to be for topping of his tank in replacing water lost from evaporation.  While nothing was said concerning the sole use of R/O (or RODI) water, or of demineralized water, the warning stated here is most prudent.  Such mineral-free water should never be used by itself as the medium for any aquarium.  There's an old saying in science that I learned over 60 years ago and which stuck with me, which I've posted here once or twice.  Simply put, it goes like this; "Nature abhors a vacuum."  In other words, wherever there is an absence (of anything), the physics of things will see to it that it's filled whenever possible, either via chemistry or other means, depending on its state.  In this case, the mineral-free water is the "vacuum," which will take (dissolve) any other matter into it at a rate equal to its pureness; the less mineral content it has (up to absolutely zero), the greater the influence upon anything surrounding it or it surrounding anything, in balancing (leaching/satisfying) its lack of mineral content with its surroundings.
       
      In this case, using pure (completely devoid of mineral content) water in the aquarium will effectively leach the calcium out of the fish's bones over time.  Other minerals will be leached from the fish more quickly, depending on its solubility, meaning needed minerals in the fishes flesh will be leached via the blood through the gill's osmoregulatory system, mutually resulting in a loss of electrolytes, causing the condition of "water intoxication" (hyperhydration).  The fish's blood is left with a much higher level of water to salts/minerals as is normally maintained for life functions, with dangerously low levels of these life-sustaining electrolytes, even leaching the iron out of the bloods red corpuscels.     
       
      Ray Wetzel
       
       
      In a message dated 12/9/2014 8:06:14 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      A few things I'd like to add to this conversation.
      1st, RODI refers to reverse osmosis deionized.  This does differ from straight RO by adding the deionizing filtration to the reverse osmosis process. 
      With that said, I'd like to point out that if using RODI or just RO or just DI water for softer water cichilds such as South/Central American cichlids, then some kind of mineral supplementation must be added to the water.  Using any water source that is devoid of mineral content will require supplementation of minerals for the health of the fish... they NEED some amount of mineral content for their bodies/organs to function properly.  The easiest way to do this would be to mix some tap water into the RO or RODI water and monitor the pH, GH, and KH levels until you have it where you need/want it for the health & safety of the fish.  Once the appropriate ratio is determined this is an easy and inexpensive option.  The other option would be to dose the clean water with something such as Discus Essentials, which is a balance of the minerals the fish need for good overall health.  (this product is not just for discus) 
      Not using a mineral supplementation source means the water will pull mineral content from the bodies of the fish which can lead to organ damage/shut down, weakened bones, and overall poor health and much shortened lifespan of the animals.  This also can mean an inability for invertebrates to form healthy exoskeletons. 

      The other thing I'd like to mention is about the copper... when testing for copper there are 2 different types of copper test kits available.  1 is for chelated and the other is for non chelated copper.  If testing copper levels due to copper pipes it's a good idea to test for both.  If testing for only one and the other is present, it won't show up, and this does make a difference for the animals as both can have an effect on overall animal health, especially invertebrates.

      Dawn 

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56268 From: Noura T. Date: 12/9/2014
      Subject: Feeding question

       

      Hello,

      I hope everyone is doing great J

      I have a quick question..

      The situation here is getting worse and worse for us and for our fish.. we often have 4 hours long power outages, followed by just 2 hours of electricity, then 4 hours of blackout again, and it goes like that all day around. On better days it’s 3 hours by 3. I haven’t any new fish since a couple of years, and I’m somehow not losing any either!

      The question is, when would be the best time to feed the fish when we only have 2 hours of electric power, preceded and followed by 4 hours of blackout?

      I thought maybe half an hour before the 2 hours of electricity start, to have the filtration on when the maximum amount of fish “poop” is dropped in the water? Just wondering…

      Temperature is okay so far. Not dropping much during blackouts.

       

      Thank you!

      Noura

       

       

       

       

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56269 From: sevenspringss Date: 12/9/2014
      Subject: Re: Feeding question
      AOL Email
      Hi Noura,
       
      It's always so good to hear from you, and your message is especially welcome at this time after not hearing from you in a while.  I'm just glad to see you haven't been displaced from your home and that no conflicts are happening right in your town.  That intermittent electricity issue is very unfortunate and I'm sorry to hear about that.  Good to know that you're not losing any fish. 
       
      Getting right to your question, since your concern is about when to feed when you're having so many blackouts, I have to assume that your aquarium must be in a window-less room, since you seem to need to time the feeding to when your aquarium lights will be lit -- or, is it just that you want to ensure that the filter is running when you feed the fish?  Actually, while I can understand your concern in that regard, it's usually best (but not necessarily needed) to have the filtration and any other form of water circulation temporarily turned off when feeding fish.  This will prevent the food from "washing" from the surface into the water column where it would all too soon fall to the substrate before the fish get a chance to see it. 
       
      If the tank is being lighted by daylight coming through the window, I'd suggest to feed the fish at sometime in the morning -- but not too early when the room is not well lit yet -- at about the half an hour (that you had in mind) before the electricity comes on.  This will give the fish plenty of time to consume the food before the water gets agitated by the filter causing any food that would have been available to get washed to areas of the tank beyond notice of the fish.   Timing the feedings like this will also allow the fish the rest of the day to hunt for any food they missed when first fed, rather than feeding them shortly before dusk. 
       
      Usually, the filter is not relied upon to clean the fish droppings out of the water column.  This chore is to be part of the weekly tank maintenance, when the bottom is hosed (syphoned, pumped, . . . ) off in removing a portion of water for the water change. 
       
      If your room temperature drops, and/or the electricity goes out for longer periods, not allowing the heater to go on, you could just fill some plastic bottles with heated water on the stove, cap them, and let them float in the aquarium while keeping check on the thermometer.  This should give the tank enough heat to prevent the temperature from dropping too low. 
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 12/9/2014 4:22:54 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hello,

      I hope everyone is doing great J

      I have a quick question..

      The situation here is getting worse and worse for us and for our fish.. we often have 4 hours long power outages, followed by just 2 hours of electricity, then 4 hours of blackout again, and it goes like that all day around. On better days it’s 3 hours by 3. I haven’t any new fish since a couple of years, and I’m somehow not losing any either!

      The question is, when would be the best time to feed the fish when we only have 2 hours of electric power, preceded and followed by 4 hours of blackout?

      I thought maybe half an hour before the 2 hours of electricity start, to have the filtration on when the maximum amount of fish “poop” is dropped in the water? Just wondering…

      Temperature is okay so far. Not dropping much during blackouts.

      Thank you!

      Noura

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56270 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 12/9/2014
      Subject: Re: Feeding question
      Hi Noura,

        I'd just like to echo Ray's sentiments-it's really great to hear from you again & although you are having the power outages it's nice to know your fish are still doing well-they have a good keeper!

        John<o)))<

      On 9 December 2014 at 23:34, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      Hi Noura,
       
      It's always so good to hear from you, and your message is especially welcome at this time after not hearing from you in a while.  I'm just glad to see you haven't been displaced from your home and that no conflicts are happening right in your town.  That intermittent electricity issue is very unfortunate and I'm sorry to hear about that.  Good to know that you're not losing any fish. 
       
      Getting right to your question, since your concern is about when to feed when you're having so many blackouts, I have to assume that your aquarium must be in a window-less room, since you seem to need to time the feeding to when your aquarium lights will be lit -- or, is it just that you want to ensure that the filter is running when you feed the fish?  Actually, while I can understand your concern in that regard, it's usually best (but not necessarily needed) to have the filtration and any other form of water circulation temporarily turned off when feeding fish.  This will prevent the food from "washing" from the surface into the water column where it would all too soon fall to the substrate before the fish get a chance to see it. 
       
      If the tank is being lighted by daylight coming through the window, I'd suggest to feed the fish at sometime in the morning -- but not too early when the room is not well lit yet -- at about the half an hour (that you had in mind) before the electricity comes on.  This will give the fish plenty of time to consume the food before the water gets agitated by the filter causing any food that would have been available to get washed to areas of the tank beyond notice of the fish.   Timing the feedings like this will also allow the fish the rest of the day to hunt for any food they missed when first fed, rather than feeding them shortly before dusk. 
       
      Usually, the filter is not relied upon to clean the fish droppings out of the water column.  This chore is to be part of the weekly tank maintenance, when the bottom is hosed (syphoned, pumped, . . . ) off in removing a portion of water for the water change. 
       
      If your room temperature drops, and/or the electricity goes out for longer periods, not allowing the heater to go on, you could just fill some plastic bottles with heated water on the stove, cap them, and let them float in the aquarium while keeping check on the thermometer.  This should give the tank enough heat to prevent the temperature from dropping too low. 
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 12/9/2014 4:22:54 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hello,

      I hope everyone is doing great J

      I have a quick question..

      The situation here is getting worse and worse for us and for our fish.. we often have 4 hours long power outages, followed by just 2 hours of electricity, then 4 hours of blackout again, and it goes like that all day around. On better days it’s 3 hours by 3. I haven’t any new fish since a couple of years, and I’m somehow not losing any either!

      The question is, when would be the best time to feed the fish when we only have 2 hours of electric power, preceded and followed by 4 hours of blackout?

      I thought maybe half an hour before the 2 hours of electricity start, to have the filtration on when the maximum amount of fish “poop” is dropped in the water? Just wondering…

      Temperature is okay so far. Not dropping much during blackouts.

      Thank you!

      Noura


      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56271 From: Noura T. Date: 12/10/2014
      Subject: Re: Feeding question

      Thank you so much my friends. It’s nice to know we’re on your minds J

      The last fish loss was last summer (I lost my 18 months old homebred Guppy males).

      I currently have 3 tanks. I never set the “new” bigger tank up, the one with the broken base that I was planning to make a DIY textured cement background for. Life has been too uncomfortable for me to feel like doing such projects.

      There is not fuel for warming the house either, and cooking gas is being very difficult to get (we don’t have gas pipes running to buildings, but gas “bottles”). So I’m really glad that the fish seem to be adapted to the situation, however we haven’t had too low temperatures yet, and I haven’t seen the tanks going below 24 C.

       

      According to the current schedule, the power is on from 11 a.m to 2 p.m. Taking Ray’s advice would make my fish’s new feeding time around 10.30 a.m

      I have been feeding them around 5 p.m (the power is on from 5-8 p.m these days), which is after sunset. Will switch to a.m

       

      I thought you might be interested in knowing my set up at the moment:

      I still have 3 tanks, the biggest housing 3 fish (An Angel, a Clown Loach, and a Pleco) in the living room with little light when the power is off, because the window is at the end of the long living room.

      The medium tank is kind of half lit by the window, it houses 2 Yellow labs who often fight (no serious injuries!). Whenever this tank becomes fishless, I will empty it, and probably get rid of it.

      The smallest tank houses 2 female guppies, and is HEAVILY planted with Anubias Nana and some kind of Sword I think. This gets the best natural light, and the plants are thriving and crowded. I tried taking some baby plants to the other 2 tanks, but the light was never favorable for plants in them, not just now with the power outages, but ever since I set them up. The plants seem “dwarf” in them, yellow, and spreading their leaves horizontally. They only survive in the small tank by the western window (6 gallons).

       

      Thank you, Ray and John. It’s nice to see that you’re always around here to help, and that you’re well J

       

      Noura

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56272 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 12/11/2014
      Subject: Fwd: Hello from new member!!
      >
      >>
      >> Hello everyone from cold and blustery Pickerington Ohio, suburb of Columbus. I am a fairly new, confused and stressed out aquarium owner. In my life I never imagined how much work goes into having an aquarium. I enjoy it but trying to keep these guys healthy and alive is stressing me out.
      >>
      >> This all started with a Betta. After having Rocky for 2 years in a bowl, I moved him up to a 1.5 gal aquarium. While at the pet store getting stuff for Rocky I saw the cutest lil African Dwarf Frogs. Added one to Rockys aquarium. This is about the time I started figuring out aquariums are work. We moved up to 5 gallon and now I have a 55 gallon for fish and a 10 gallon for my frogs and Rocky.
      >>
      >> I belong to another Yahoo group who are great to help me with the frogs but they suggested I try to join your group to get advice on the 55 gallon tank. The 55 gallon tank has been set up about 3 weeks. After set up I added some Mollies, Cory catfish and snails. I also added a bottle of Safe Start Plus.
      >> At the advice of my other group I have been doing 10% and 25% water changes and treating with Prime. I've been cleaning up uneaten food every day but only cleaning topically, leaving bacteria stuff at the bottom alone.
      >> Last week they told me to do a 25% water change and add another bottle of Safe Start. After that I should refrain from water changes but treat with Prime every other day. On the 9th I saw the first changes in test results.
      >> 12/9 Ph 7.6 Hph 8 Ammonia .50 nitrites 0 nitrates 5 treated with prime
      >>
      >> 12/10 Ph 7.6 Hph 8 Ammonia 0 nitrites 0 nitrates 20
      >>
      >> 12/11 Ph 7.0 Hph 7.4 ammonia 4 nitrites 0 nitrates 20 treated with prime
      >>
      >> I'm still trying to understand the cycling process and at this point I don't know if my tank has cycled or not, what numbers are ideal for the tank and how I should proceed. I realize the other group while focusing on frogs may not know as much as aquarists who focus more on fish and I'm hoping you all can help me along.


      >> Thank you for reading my long, info laden post but I really do appreciate your help.
      >> thanks again!
      >> peg
      >>
      >>
      >>
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56273 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 12/11/2014
      Subject: Re: Fwd: Hello from new member!!
      Hi Peg,

        Welcome to the group & info laden posts are just what we need to best advise you!!

       I don't have any practical experience with tropical fish or frogs so I won't give you any specifics but I can give you some general pointers until one of the experts jumps in [no pun intended] Basically there are three stages to cycling a tank-when a tank has living creatures in it they put out waste & that waste is ammonia. After a while the ammonia causes good bacteria to form, mainly in the filters which eats the harmful ammonia but unfortunately it gives out another toxin-Nitrite. Luckily this second toxin also generates good bugs in your filters which eats the nitrite & instead gives out nitrate. Nitrate is far less harmful that ammonia or nitrite but can still cause problems if left unchecked &

      ​sadly there is not a third set of good bacteria that will eat it so that is where partial water changes come in to constantly dilute this background organic waste which is nitrate.

      ​It appears that the first stage of your tank's cycle has completed-the ammonia has peaked & then dropped to zero while at the same time the nitrite has started to rise on Dec 10th. Today it is showing a very high figure so you would be well to do ​​
      ​up to a 4​
      0% water change to drop this figure & then do further partial water changes in the following days. Your ideal results that show when the tank is cycles will be zero ammonia & zero nitrite. As things progress you will see the nitrate [organic waste] rise slightly as has yesterday.

      I don't think you need to use your regular pH test as the results only go to 7.6 even if they
      ​'​
      re above that number so use the High Range pH & that will give you the true figure. 
      ​I think​
      you should be vacuuming your tank floor waste
      ​ as I reckon that may be pushing your toxins up by leaving it​
      ​​
      ​ there.​


        John [from cold & blustery Leicester!]<o)))<

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56274 From: Angela Cancilla Herschel Date: 12/12/2014
      Subject: 3 fish showed up in outside patio "pond" ( 7' L. x 4' w. x 31/2 acro
      OK we are stumped guys ! In Malibu California outdoors surrounded by nature (less than a mile from the ocean)  ...we have no idea how 3 fish all of a sudden showed up out of the blue ( less than a half inch long) and it has been 6 to 8 weeks and now  and they are about two inches long(they are grayish black with a metallic tint).   My mind is trying to figure out all kinds of possibilities for vectors ? 
      _______________________________________________
      Ciao, Angela Cancilla Herschel in SoCal

      Being kind is more important ..than being important. ~

      California Wildlife Center,volunteer wildlife warrior ~
      www.cawildlife.org
      Amazon wish list;  : http://amzn.com/w/2432ONM8ST9AK
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56275 From: Harry Leverett Date: 12/12/2014
      Subject: Tank lighting
      Starting a small fish room ( my wife is going to corner the guppy market ;) I built a small rack for her and am to the lighting part. Do the shop light fixtures with daylight or sunlight bulbs do OK for the fish or do I need to get a proper 4' aquarium light?
      Thanks Harry L.

      Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56276 From: Harry Leverett Date: 12/12/2014
      Subject: Re: 3 fish showed up in outside patio "pond" ( 7' L. x 4' w. x 31/2
      My bet would the local wildlife , birds dropped them or something like that, or sneaky neighbor lol.
      Harry L.
      Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID


      "Angela Cancilla Herschel angelasfeathers@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      OK we are stumped guys ! In Malibu California outdoors surrounded by nature (less than a mile from the ocean)  ...we have no idea how 3 fish all of a sudden showed up out of the blue ( less than a half inch long) and it has been 6 to 8 weeks and now  and they are about two inches long(they are grayish black with a metallic tint).   My mind is trying to figure out all kinds of possibilities for vectors ? 
      _______________________________________________
      Ciao, Angela Cancilla Herschel in SoCal

      Being kind is more important ..than being important. ~

      California Wildlife Center,volunteer wildlife warrior ~
      www.cawildlife.org
      Amazon wish list;  : http://amzn.com/w/2432ONM8ST9AK
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56277 From: sevenspringss Date: 12/12/2014
      Subject: Re: Tank lighting
      AOL Email
      Harry,
       
      Many hobbyist with multi tanks and racks use shop lights, but I don't know exactly where you plan to use them  While you can use them suspended right over the tanks, they can also be used suspended over the ceiling between rows of racks.  Shop lights from the ceiling though, won't grow many plants besides the very low light demanded varieties of plants.
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 12/12/2014 4:59:54 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Starting a small fish room ( my wife is going to corner the guppy market ;) I built a small rack for her and am to the lighting part. Do the shop light fixtures with daylight or sunlight bulbs do OK for the fish or do I need to get a proper 4' aquarium light?
      Thanks Harry L.

      Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56278 From: Harry Leverett Date: 12/12/2014
      Subject: Re: Tank lighting
      I built a light bar out of copper tubing and sweat joints , looks pretty good if I say so myself but, I digress . I can adjust the height from on the tanks to about 12" above. I was wondering about the bulbs?
      Thanks
      Harry


      Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID


      "sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Harry,
       
      Many hobbyist with multi tanks and racks use shop lights, but I don't know exactly where you plan to use them  While you can use them suspended right over the tanks, they can also be used suspended over the ceiling between rows of racks.  Shop lights from the ceiling though, won't grow many plants besides the very low light demanded varieties of plants.
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 12/12/2014 4:59:54 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Starting a small fish room ( my wife is going to corner the guppy market ;) I built a small rack for her and am to the lighting part. Do the shop light fixtures with daylight or sunlight bulbs do OK for the fish or do I need to get a proper 4' aquarium light?
      Thanks Harry L.

      Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56279 From: Harry Leverett Date: 12/12/2014
      Subject: Re: Tank lighting
      I found an interesting tidbit today. A 48" T5 aquatic bulb will not fit a 48" shop light. The 48" coral life bulbs are about 3" short. I never thought about the fixture fitting the tank exactly so the sockets are moved in. The shop light bulbs are full 48". Live and learn.
      Harry


      Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID


      "Harry Leverett harryleverett60@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      I built a light bar out of copper tubing and sweat joints , looks pretty good if I say so myself but, I digress . I can adjust the height from on the tanks to about 12" above. I was wondering about the bulbs?
      Thanks
      Harry


      Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID


      "sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Harry,
       
      Many hobbyist with multi tanks and racks use shop lights, but I don't know exactly where you plan to use them  While you can use them suspended right over the tanks, they can also be used suspended over the ceiling between rows of racks.  Shop lights from the ceiling though, won't grow many plants besides the very low light demanded varieties of plants.
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 12/12/2014 4:59:54 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Starting a small fish room ( my wife is going to corner the guppy market ;) I built a small rack for her and am to the lighting part. Do the shop light fixtures with daylight or sunlight bulbs do OK for the fish or do I need to get a proper 4' aquarium light?
      Thanks Harry L.

      Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56280 From: sevenspringss Date: 12/12/2014
      Subject: Re: Tank lighting
      AOL Email
      I never gave that a thought, about a "48" aquatic bulb" not being 48".  I know many of the aquatic light fixtures use (used?) a bulb the next size down.  Like a 24" long hood would use an 18" bulb and a 30" long hood would use a 24" bulb.  
       
      Ray 
       
       
       
      In a message dated 12/12/2014 10:21:00 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      I found an interesting tidbit today. A 48" T5 aquatic bulb will not fit a 48" shop light. The 48" coral life bulbs are about 3" short. I never thought about the fixture fitting the tank exactly so the sockets are moved in. The shop light bulbs are full 48". Live and learn.
      Harry


      Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID


      "Harry Leverett harryleverett60@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      I built a light bar out of copper tubing and sweat joints , looks pretty good if I say so myself but, I digress . I can adjust the height from on the tanks to about 12" above. I was wondering about the bulbs?
      Thanks
      Harry


      Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID


      "sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Harry,
       
      Many hobbyist with multi tanks and racks use shop lights, but I don't know exactly where you plan to use them  While you can use them suspended right over the tanks, they can also be used suspended over the ceiling between rows of racks.  Shop lights from the ceiling though, won't grow many plants besides the very low light demanded varieties of plants.
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 12/12/2014 4:59:54 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Starting a small fish room ( my wife is going to corner the guppy market ;) I built a small rack for her and am to the lighting part. Do the shop light fixtures with daylight or sunlight bulbs do OK for the fish or do I need to get a proper 4' aquarium light?
      Thanks Harry L.

      Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID


      Posted by: Harry Leverett <harryleverett60@...>
      Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (4)
      .

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56281 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 12/13/2014
      Subject: Re: 3 fish showed up in outside patio "pond" ( 7' L. x 4' w. x 31/2
      Hi Angela,

        I agree-someone has put them in there! Do you have a photo of them please? Did you already have some fish of your own in there?

        John<o)))<

      On 12 December 2014 at 22:02, Harry Leverett harryleverett60@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      My bet would the local wildlife , birds dropped them or something like that, or sneaky neighbor lol.
      Harry L.
      Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID


      "Angela Cancilla Herschel angelasfeathers@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      OK we are stumped guys ! In Malibu California outdoors surrounded by nature (less than a mile from the ocean)  ...we have no idea how 3 fish all of a sudden showed up out of the blue ( less than a half inch long) and it has been 6 to 8 weeks and now  and they are about two inches long(they are grayish black with a metallic tint).   My mind is trying to figure out all kinds of possibilities for vectors ? 
      _______________________________________________
      Ciao, Angela Cancilla Herschel in SoCal

      Being kind is more important ..than being important. ~

      California Wildlife Center,volunteer wildlife warrior ~
      www.cawildlife.org
      Amazon wish list;  : http://amzn.com/w/2432ONM8ST9AK

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56282 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 12/13/2014
      Subject: Re: Fwd: Hello from new member!!
      I'm just bumping this one back up in case anyone's missed it so Peg can get some definitive help for her cycling tank-thanks.

        John<o)))<

      On 11 December 2014 at 21:11, Peg Yruegas peg@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       



      >
      >>
      >> Hello everyone from cold and blustery Pickerington Ohio, suburb of Columbus. I am a fairly new, confused and stressed out aquarium owner. In my life I never imagined how much work goes into having an aquarium. I enjoy it but trying to keep these guys healthy and alive is stressing me out.
      >>
      >> This all started with a Betta. After having Rocky for 2 years in a bowl, I moved him up to a 1.5 gal aquarium. While at the pet store getting stuff for Rocky I saw the cutest lil African Dwarf Frogs. Added one to Rockys aquarium. This is about the time I started figuring out aquariums are work. We moved up to 5 gallon and now I have a 55 gallon for fish and a 10 gallon for my frogs and Rocky.
      >>
      >> I belong to another Yahoo group who are great to help me with the frogs but they suggested I try to join your group to get advice on the 55 gallon tank. The 55 gallon tank has been set up about 3 weeks. After set up I added some Mollies, Cory catfish and snails. I also added a bottle of Safe Start Plus.
      >> At the advice of my other group I have been doing 10% and 25% water changes and treating with Prime. I've been cleaning up uneaten food every day but only cleaning topically, leaving bacteria stuff at the bottom alone.
      >> Last week they told me to do a 25% water change and add another bottle of Safe Start. After that I should refrain from water changes but treat with Prime every other day. On the 9th I saw the first changes in test results.
      >> 12/9 Ph 7.6 Hph 8 Ammonia .50 nitrites 0 nitrates 5 treated with prime
      >>
      >> 12/10 Ph 7.6 Hph 8 Ammonia 0 nitrites 0 nitrates 20
      >>
      >> 12/11 Ph 7.0 Hph 7.4 ammonia 4 nitrites 0 nitrates 20 treated with prime
      >>
      >> I'm still trying to understand the cycling process and at this point I don't know if my tank has cycled or not, what numbers are ideal for the tank and how I should proceed. I realize the other group while focusing on frogs may not know as much as aquarists who focus more on fish and I'm hoping you all can help me along.

      >> Thank you for reading my long, info laden post but I really do appreciate your help.
      >> thanks again!
      >> peg
      >>
      >>
      >>

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56283 From: jett07002 Date: 12/13/2014
      Subject: Re: Tank lighting

      Hello, Harry:

      I use shop lights for my aquariums and my plants.


      With a little ingenuity just string up a system of cords by which you can lower or lift the lights for whatever your needs may be at the time. 


      It works for me.   Been doing it for years.  Does not have to be complicated.  Even two cords to handle each side will do.


      joe t

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56284 From: amphibian_ca Date: 12/13/2014
      Subject: Re: Tank lighting
      A couple of issues to mention.  First, there are different types of fluorescent tube fixtures/tubes available.  The most standard and basic type is T8.  There is also T5 (you mentioned T5 tubes in one post), T12 and perhaps another less commonly seen.  The "T" number refers to the diameter of the tubes in eighths of an inch, so a T8 is 8/8 or 1 inch, a T5 is 5/8 inch, etc.  But these tubes are not interchangeable (sometimes T12 and T8 are, more momentarily) because the pins at the ends are different and the tubes themselves have specific differences when it comes to the fixtures.  T8 is the newer "form" of T12, developed to be more energy-efficient, so T12 tubes are not being manufactured and are less often seen now, though old stock is still encountered especially in the smaller lengths.

      On the tube length, this is standard among the types of tubes, so any 49-inch T8 will fit in a fixture made for 4-foot tubes.  Same for T5, but here you may encounter T5 NO (= normal output), T5 HO (high output) and T5 VHO (very high output) and there may be some issues that differentiate them concerning the fixture, I'm not sure as I do not use T5.  I'll leave this, as with "shop lights" you are most likely dealing with T8.  So your 4-foot shop light fixture should take any 48-inch T8 tubes (the "48-inch" will be on the tube or package).

      Moving on to the tubes themselves.  For aquarium plants scientific studies have shown that light in the colour temperature range (measured in Kelvin) between 5000K and 7000K works best.  Plants photosynthesize most efficiently (all other issues like nutrients being equal) within 6000K to 7000K.  Tubes commonly referred to as "Daylight" or similar will have a kelvin around 6500K.  You can mix say a 5000K and a 6500K to create a slightly warmer white, and I find this combo works nicely over dual tube tanks.  With 4-foot tubes, the less expensive tubes made by Sylvania or Phillips work well in my experience.

      Tubes are also in basic wattages for the length, with T8 anyway.  So a T8 will likely be 32 watts now; they originally were 40 watts, but the tubes are now being even more efficiently made and usually come as 32 watts.  The wattage is only the measurement of the amount of energy a tube uses to produce the light, and not an indication of intensity/brightness unless you are comparing identical tubes but this doesn't really matter as the wattages are standard for tubes.  [In CFL bulbs you can see this difference more, as a GE Daylight CFL 13w will be brighter than the same bulb in 9w, etc.]

      As for the distance from tubes to water surface, remember that the higher the fixture is above the tank surface, the less light will be able to penetrate into the water and it is being dispersed in the space between tube and water surface.  It is also easier to view the aquarium with the lights on the tank frame, or with some sort of barrier between the tubes and surface if they are above the frame, just so you are not dealing with bright light hitting your eyes.

      Plants will only grow (= photosynthesize) well if the light intensity is sufficient for the plant species (this varies, what we term low light requirement plants, moderate light, high light in very general terms), all 17 nutrients are available in sufficient quantity for the plant species, and the duration is adequate.  All else being present, duration can be as little as six hours during each 24-hour period.  Once you have the intensity and nutrients balanced, the duration can be varied; too much or too little of the duration can cause algae issues, as can nutrient deficiencies/excesses, and intensity too for that matter.

      Byron.
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56285 From: Harry Leverett Date: 12/13/2014
      Subject: Re: Tank lighting
      My light bar and table
      Harry

      Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID

      "jett07002@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


      >
      >Hello, Harry:
      >
      >I use shop lights for my aquariums and my plants.
      >
      >
      >With a little ingenuity just string up a system of cords by which you can lower or lift the lights for whatever your needs may be at the time. 
      >
      >
      >It works for me.   Been doing it for years.  Does not have to be complicated.  Even two cords to handle each side will do.
      >
      >
      >joe t
      >
      >
      >
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      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56286 From: Harry Leverett Date: 12/13/2014
      Subject: Re: Tank lighting
      You're right. One of my problems was I had T8 and T5 confused. The "shop light" is T8 and the corallife bulbs are T5, no lost though, my 4' tank light takes T5. I have 2 6500k bulbs in the shop light now but will probably change 1 to the 4500k.

      Thank y'all for all the help. I do think I'll build 2 more light bars for the 55 gal and 30 gal. tanks. I like the look of the copper. Probably make the next ones from 1" copper tubing and do a better job on the sweat joints.
      Thanks again
      Harry L.

      Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID


      "bhosking@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      A couple of issues to mention.  First, there are different types of fluorescent tube fixtures/tubes available.  The most standard and basic type is T8.  There is also T5 (you mentioned T5 tubes in one post), T12 and perhaps another less commonly seen.  The "T" number refers to the diameter of the tubes in eighths of an inch, so a T8 is 8/8 or 1 inch, a T5 is 5/8 inch, etc.  But these tubes are not interchangeable (sometimes T12 and T8 are, more momentarily) because the pins at the ends are different and the tubes themselves have specific differences when it comes to the fixtures.  T8 is the newer "form" of T12, developed to be more energy-efficient, so T12 tubes are not being manufactured and are less often seen now, though old stock is still encountered especially in the smaller lengths.


      On the tube length, this is standard among the types of tubes, so any 49-inch T8 will fit in a fixture made for 4-foot tubes.  Same for T5, but here you may encounter T5 NO (= normal output), T5 HO (high output) and T5 VHO (very high output) and there may be some issues that differentiate them concerning the fixture, I'm not sure as I do not use T5.  I'll leave this, as with "shop lights" you are most likely dealing with T8.  So your 4-foot shop light fixture should take any 48-inch T8 tubes (the "48-inch" will be on the tube or package).

      Moving on to the tubes themselves.  For aquarium plants scientific studies have shown that light in the colour temperature range (measured in Kelvin) between 5000K and 7000K works best.  Plants photosynthesize most efficiently (all other issues like nutrients being equal) within 6000K to 7000K.  Tubes commonly referred to as "Daylight" or similar will have a kelvin around 6500K.  You can mix say a 5000K and a 6500K to create a slightly warmer white, and I find this combo works nicely over dual tube tanks.  With 4-foot tubes, the less expensive tubes made by Sylvania or Phillips work well in my experience.

      Tubes are also in basic wattages for the length, with T8 anyway.  So a T8 will likely be 32 watts now; they originally were 40 watts, but the tubes are now being even more efficiently made and usually come as 32 watts.  The wattage is only the measurement of the amount of energy a tube uses to produce the light, and not an indication of intensity/brightness unless you are comparing identical tubes but this doesn't really matter as the wattages are standard for tubes.  [In CFL bulbs you can see this difference more, as a GE Daylight CFL 13w will be brighter than the same bulb in 9w, etc.]

      As for the distance from tubes to water surface, remember that the higher the fixture is above the tank surface, the less light will be able to penetrate into the water and it is being dispersed in the space between tube and water surface.  It is also easier to view the aquarium with the lights on the tank frame, or with some sort of barrier between the tubes and surface if they are above the frame, just so you are not dealing with bright light hitting your eyes.

      Plants will only grow (= photosynthesize) well if the light intensity is sufficient for the plant species (this varies, what we term low light requirement plants, moderate light, high light in very general terms), all 17 nutrients are available in sufficient quantity for the plant species, and the duration is adequate.  All else being present, duration can be as little as six hours during each 24-hour period.  Once you have the intensity and nutrients balanced, the duration can be varied; too much or too little of the duration can cause algae issues, as can nutrient deficiencies/excesses, and intensity too for that matter.

      Byron.
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56287 From: Harry Leverett Date: 12/13/2014
      Subject: Re: Tank lighting
      Well hell I sent a picture, haven't a clue what happened to it.
      Harry

      Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID


      "Harry Leverett harryleverett60@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      My light bar and table
      Harry

      Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID

      "jett07002@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


      >
      >Hello, Harry:
      >
      >I use shop lights for my aquariums and my plants.
      >
      >
      >With a little ingenuity just string up a system of cords by which you can lower or lift the lights for whatever your needs may be at the time. 
      >
      >
      >It works for me.   Been doing it for years.  Does not have to be complicated.  Even two cords to handle each side will do.
      >
      >
      >joe t
      >
      >
      >
      ><!-- #ygrp-mkp { border: 1px solid #d8d8d8; font-family: Arial; margin: 10px 0; padding: 0 10px; } #ygrp-mkp hr { border: 1px solid #d8d8d8; } #ygrp-mkp #hd { color: #628c2a; font-size: 85%; font-weight: 700; line-height: 122%; margin: 10px 0; } #ygrp-mkp #ads { margin-bottom: 10px; } #ygrp-mkp .ad { padding: 0 0; } #ygrp-mkp .ad p { margin: 0; } #ygrp-mkp .ad a { color: #0000ff; text-decoration: none; } #ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc { font-family: Arial; } #ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc #hd { margin: 10px 0px; font-weight: 700; font-size: 78%; line-height: 122%; } #ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc .ad { margin-bottom: 10px; padding: 0 0; } #actions { font-family: Verdana; font-size: 11px; padding: 10px 0; } #activity { background-color: #e0ecee; float: left; font-family: Verdana; font-size: 10px; padding: 10px; } #activity span { font-weight: 700; } #activity span:first-child { text-transform: uppercase; } #activity span a { color: #5085b6; text-decoration: none; } #activity span span { color: #ff7900; } #activity span .underline { text-decoration: underline; } .attach { clear: both; display: table; font-family: Arial; font-size: 12px; padding: 10px 0; width: 400px; } .attach div a { text-decoration: none; } .attach img { border: none; padding-right: 5px; } .attach label { display: block; margin-bottom: 5px; } .attach label a { text-decoration: none; } blockquote { margin: 0 0 0 4px; } .bold { font-family: Arial; font-size: 13px; font-weight: 700; } .bold a { text-decoration: none; } dd.last p a { font-family: Verdana; font-weight: 700; } dd.last p span { margin-right: 10px; font-family: Verdana; font-weight: 700; } dd.last p span.yshortcuts { margin-right: 0; } div.attach-table div div a { text-decoration: none; } div.attach-table { width: 400px; } div.file-title a, div.file-title a:active, div.file-title a:hover, div.file-title a:visited { text-decoration: none; } div.photo-title a, div.photo-title a:active, div.photo-title a:hover, div.photo-title a:visited { text-decoration: none; } div#ygrp-mlmsg #ygrp-msg p a span.yshortcuts { font-family: Verdana; font-size: 10px; font-weight: normal; } .green { color: #628c2a; } .MsoNormal { margin: 0 0 0 0; } o { font-size: 0; } #photos div { float: left; width: 72px; } #photos div div { border: 1px solid #666666; height: 62px; overflow: hidden; width: 62px; } #photos div label { color: #666666; font-size: 10px; overflow: hidden; text-align: center; white-space: nowrap; width: 64px; } #reco-category { font-size: 77%; } #reco-desc { font-size: 77%; } .replbq { margin: 4px; } #ygrp-actbar div a:first-child { /* border-right: 0px solid #000;*/ margin-right: 2px; padding-right: 5px; } #ygrp-mlmsg { font-size: 13px; font-family: Arial, helvetica,clean, sans-serif; *font-size: small; *font: x-small; } #ygrp-mlmsg table { font-size: inherit; font: 100%; } #ygrp-mlmsg select, input, textarea { font: 99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif; } #ygrp-mlmsg pre, code { font:115% monospace; *font-size:100%; } #ygrp-mlmsg * { line-height: 1.22em; } #ygrp-mlmsg #logo { padding-bottom: 10px; } #ygrp-msg p a { font-family: Verdana; } #ygrp-msg p#attach-count span { color: #1E66AE; font-weight: 700; } #ygrp-reco #reco-head { color: #ff7900; font-weight: 700; } #ygrp-reco { margin-bottom: 20px; padding: 0px; } #ygrp-sponsor #ov li a { font-size: 130%; text-decoration: none; } #ygrp-sponsor #ov li { font-size: 77%; list-style-type: square; padding: 6px 0; } #ygrp-sponsor #ov ul { margin: 0; padding: 0 0 0 8px; } #ygrp-text { font-family: Georgia; } #ygrp-text p { margin: 0 0 1em 0; } #ygrp-text tt { font-size: 120%; } #ygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right: none !important; } -->

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56288 From: Harry Leverett Date: 12/13/2014
      Subject: Re: Tank lighting
      Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID

      "Harry Leverett harryleverett60@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


      >
      >My light bar and table
      >Harry
      >
      >Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID
      >
      >"jett07002@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
      >
      >> 
      >>
      >>Hello, Harry:
      >>
      >>I use shop lights for my aquariums and my plants.
      >>
      >>
      >>With a little ingenuity just string up a system of cords by which you can lower or lift the lights for whatever your needs may be at the time. 
      >>
      >>
      >>It works for me.   Been doing it for years.  Does not have to be complicated.  Even two cords to handle each side will do.
      >>
      >>
      >>joe t
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >><!-- #ygrp-mkp { border: 1px solid #d8d8d8; font-family: Arial; margin: 10px 0; padding: 0 10px; } #ygrp-mkp hr { border: 1px solid #d8d8d8; } #ygrp-mkp #hd { color: #628c2a; font-size: 85%; font-weight: 700; line-height: 122%; margin: 10px 0; } #ygrp-mkp #ads { margin-bottom: 10px; } #ygrp-mkp .ad { padding: 0 0; } #ygrp-mkp .ad p { margin: 0; } #ygrp-mkp .ad a { color: #0000ff; text-decoration: none; } #ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc { font-family: Arial; } #ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc #hd { margin: 10px 0px; font-weight: 700; font-size: 78%; line-height: 122%; } #ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc .ad { margin-bottom: 10px; padding: 0 0; } #actions { font-family: Verdana; font-size: 11px; padding: 10px 0; } #activity { background-color: #e0ecee; float: left; font-family: Verdana; font-size: 10px; padding: 10px; } #activity span { font-weight: 700; } #activity span:first-child { text-transform: uppercase; } #activity span a { color: #5085b6; text-decoration: none; } #activity span span { color: #ff7900; } #activity span .underline { text-decoration: underline; } .attach { clear: both; display: table; font-family: Arial; font-size: 12px; padding: 10px 0; width: 400px; } .attach div a { text-decoration: none; } .attach img { border: none; padding-right: 5px; } .attach label { display: block; margin-bottom: 5px; } .attach label a { text-decoration: none; } blockquote { margin: 0 0 0 4px; } .bold { font-family: Arial; font-size: 13px; font-weight: 700; } .bold a { text-decoration: none; } dd.last p a { font-family: Verdana; font-weight: 700; } dd.last p span { margin-right: 10px; font-family: Verdana; font-weight: 700; } dd.last p span.yshortcuts { margin-right: 0; } div.attach-table div div a { text-decoration: none; } div.attach-table { width: 400px; } div.file-title a, div.file-title a:active, div.file-title a:hover, div.file-title a:visited { text-decoration: none; } div.photo-title a, div.photo-title a:active, div.photo-title a:hover, div.photo-title a:visited { text-decoration: none; } div#ygrp-mlmsg #ygrp-msg p a span.yshortcuts { font-family: Verdana; font-size: 10px; font-weight: normal; } .green { color: #628c2a; } .MsoNormal { margin: 0 0 0 0; } o { font-size: 0; } #photos div { float: left; width: 72px; } #photos div div { border: 1px solid #666666; height: 62px; overflow: hidden; width: 62px; } #photos div label { color: #666666; font-size: 10px; overflow: hidden; text-align: center; white-space: nowrap; width: 64px; } #reco-category { font-size: 77%; } #reco-desc { font-size: 77%; } .replbq { margin: 4px; } #ygrp-actbar div a:first-child { /* border-right: 0px solid #000;*/ margin-right: 2px; padding-right: 5px; } #ygrp-mlmsg { font-size: 13px; font-family: Arial, helvetica,clean, sans-serif; *font-size: small; *font: x-small; } #ygrp-mlmsg table { font-size: inherit; font: 100%; } #ygrp-mlmsg select, input, textarea { font: 99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif; } #ygrp-mlmsg pre, code { font:115% monospace; *font-size:100%; } #ygrp-mlmsg * { line-height: 1.22em; } #ygrp-mlmsg #logo { padding-bottom: 10px; } #ygrp-msg p a { font-family: Verdana; } #ygrp-msg p#attach-count span { color: #1E66AE; font-weight: 700; } #ygrp-reco #reco-head { color: #ff7900; font-weight: 700; } #ygrp-reco { margin-bottom: 20px; padding: 0px; } #ygrp-sponsor #ov li a { font-size: 130%; text-decoration: none; } #ygrp-sponsor #ov li { font-size: 77%; list-style-type: square; padding: 6px 0; } #ygrp-sponsor #ov ul { margin: 0; padding: 0 0 0 8px; } #ygrp-text { font-family: Georgia; } #ygrp-text p { margin: 0 0 1em 0; } #ygrp-text tt { font-size: 120%; } #ygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right: none !important; } -->
      >
      >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >
      ><!-- #ygrp-mkp { border: 1px solid #d8d8d8; font-family: Arial; margin: 10px 0; padding: 0 10px; } #ygrp-mkp hr { border: 1px solid #d8d8d8; } #ygrp-mkp #hd { color: #628c2a; font-size: 85%; font-weight: 700; line-height: 122%; margin: 10px 0; } #ygrp-mkp #ads { margin-bottom: 10px; } #ygrp-mkp .ad { padding: 0 0; } #ygrp-mkp .ad p { margin: 0; } #ygrp-mkp .ad a { color: #0000ff; text-decoration: none; } #ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc { font-family: Arial; } #ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc #hd { margin: 10px 0px; font-weight: 700; font-size: 78%; line-height: 122%; } #ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc .ad { margin-bottom: 10px; padding: 0 0; } #actions { font-family: Verdana; font-size: 11px; padding: 10px 0; } #activity { background-color: #e0ecee; float: left; font-family: Verdana; font-size: 10px; padding: 10px; } #activity span { font-weight: 700; } #activity span:first-child { text-transform: uppercase; } #activity span a { color: #5085b6; text-decoration: none; } #activity span span { color: #ff7900; } #activity span .underline { text-decoration: underline; } .attach { clear: both; display: table; font-family: Arial; font-size: 12px; padding: 10px 0; width: 400px; } .attach div a { text-decoration: none; } .attach img { border: none; padding-right: 5px; } .attach label { display: block; margin-bottom: 5px; } .attach label a { text-decoration: none; } blockquote { margin: 0 0 0 4px; } .bold { font-family: Arial; font-size: 13px; font-weight: 700; } .bold a { text-decoration: none; } dd.last p a { font-family: Verdana; font-weight: 700; } dd.last p span { margin-right: 10px; font-family: Verdana; font-weight: 700; } dd.last p span.yshortcuts { margin-right: 0; } div.attach-table div div a { text-decoration: none; } div.attach-table { width: 400px; } div.file-title a, div.file-title a:active, div.file-title a:hover, div.file-title a:visited { text-decoration: none; } div.photo-title a, div.photo-title a:active, div.photo-title a:hover, div.photo-title a:visited { text-decoration: none; } div#ygrp-mlmsg #ygrp-msg p a span.yshortcuts { font-family: Verdana; font-size: 10px; font-weight: normal; } .green { color: #628c2a; } .MsoNormal { margin: 0 0 0 0; } o { font-size: 0; } #photos div { float: left; width: 72px; } #photos div div { border: 1px solid #666666; height: 62px; overflow: hidden; width: 62px; } #photos div label { color: #666666; font-size: 10px; overflow: hidden; text-align: center; white-space: nowrap; width: 64px; } #reco-category { font-size: 77%; } #reco-desc { font-size: 77%; } .replbq { margin: 4px; } #ygrp-actbar div a:first-child { /* border-right: 0px solid #000;*/ margin-right: 2px; padding-right: 5px; } #ygrp-mlmsg { font-size: 13px; font-family: Arial, helvetica,clean, sans-serif; *font-size: small; *font: x-small; } #ygrp-mlmsg table { font-size: inherit; font: 100%; } #ygrp-mlmsg select, input, textarea { font: 99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif; } #ygrp-mlmsg pre, code { font:115% monospace; *font-size:100%; } #ygrp-mlmsg * { line-height: 1.22em; } #ygrp-mlmsg #logo { padding-bottom: 10px; } #ygrp-msg p a { font-family: Verdana; } #ygrp-msg p#attach-count span { color: #1E66AE; font-weight: 700; } #ygrp-reco #reco-head { color: #ff7900; font-weight: 700; } #ygrp-reco { margin-bottom: 20px; padding: 0px; } #ygrp-sponsor #ov li a { font-size: 130%; text-decoration: none; } #ygrp-sponsor #ov li { font-size: 77%; list-style-type: square; padding: 6px 0; } #ygrp-sponsor #ov ul { margin: 0; padding: 0 0 0 8px; } #ygrp-text { font-family: Georgia; } #ygrp-text p { margin: 0 0 1em 0; } #ygrp-text tt { font-size: 120%; } #ygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right: none !important; } -->

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56289 From: Angela Cancilla Herschel Date: 12/13/2014
      Subject: 3 fish showed up in outside patio "pond" ( 7' L. x 4' w. x 31/2 acro
      Never mind guys ....sheesh.

      OMG!  I am so  so dumb ! These are their babies! Well we now know we have at least one of the opposite sex of the 3 large goldfish in the garden patio pond . 
      >OK we are stumped guys ! In Malibu California outdoors surrounded by nature (less than a mile from the ocean)  ...we have no idea how 3 fish all of a sudden showed up out of the blue ( less than a half inch long) and it has been 6 to 8 weeks and now  and they are about two inches long(they are grayish black with a metallic tint).   My mind is trying to figure out all kinds of possibilities for vectors ? 

      Ciao, Angela Cancilla Herschel in SoCal
      Being kind is more important ...than being important ~
      Wildlife warrior volunteer at ~
      California Wildlife Center:
      Amazon Wish List:

      Sent from my iPhone

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56290 From: Harry Leverett Date: 12/14/2014
      Subject: Light bar
      Try one more time

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56291 From: kbgwp Date: 12/14/2014
      Subject: Re: 3 fish showed up in outside patio "pond" ( 7' L. x 4' w. x 31/2
      I thought that might be what happened as soon as I read your message.  The same thing happened here (in Pennsylvania) this last summer.  We had 3 plastic ponds outside that had some goldfish in them.  After we moved those fish into the big pond here, some tiny fish appeared.  Ended up being a dozen or more that were also moved to the big pond before the cold weather came.

      I considered keeping one or two of them indoors but set them all free instead.  They are in a pond that already had 3 large goldfish plus the smaller (obviously mature) goldfish from the little ponds.  No other types of fish live in the big pond but there are lots of frogs, tadpoles, and newts as well as all kinds of bugs for them to eat.  Hopefully they survive the winter.  The large ones have lived there at least a winter or two now but it isn't real deep (4-5 feet) and I think racoons or some other animal cleaned that pond out before.

      Good luck with your new babies.

      Brian in PA


      ---In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, <angelasfeathers@...> wrote :

      Never mind guys ....sheesh.

      OMG!  I am so  so dumb ! These are their babies! Well we now know we have at least one of the opposite sex of the 3 large goldfish in the garden patio pond . 

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56292 From: Harry Leverett Date: 12/15/2014
      Subject: Re: Tank lighting
      I found another little interesting tidbit today I went by the feed store and they had 12 milliliter syringes. They come in perfect for drawing up water samples and for dosing small amounts of water conditioners.

      Airline tubing fits the end of the syringe perfectly and you can reach the bottom of the bottle with it

      Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID

      Harry Leverett <harryleverett60@...> wrote:

      >
      >
      >Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56293 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 12/15/2014
      Subject: Re: 3 fish showed up in outside patio "pond" ( 7' L. x 4' w. x 31/2
      Hi Angela,

        That's great news & shows that your pond is a very healthy environment, otherwise the fish would not have spawned. A similar thing happened during the Summer in one of the ponds I look after-he has a closed population of 7 mature streamlined Goldfish & a big Tench in 350 gallons. One day in June when I was doing a pond vacuuming I spotted a new fish around two inches long. Then I realised he had been hiding out in the plats around the edge while he grew. Now he's happily feeding in open water with the big fish-no danger of being mistaken for dinner now!​

        John<o)))<

      On 14 December 2014 at 15:49, kbgwp@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      I thought that might be what happened as soon as I read your message.  The same thing happened here (in Pennsylvania) this last summer.  We had 3 plastic ponds outside that had some goldfish in them.  After we moved those fish into the big pond here, some tiny fish appeared.  Ended up being a dozen or more that were also moved to the big pond before the cold weather came.

      I considered keeping one or two of them indoors but set them all free instead.  They are in a pond that already had 3 large goldfish plus the smaller (obviously mature) goldfish from the little ponds.  No other types of fish live in the big pond but there are lots of frogs, tadpoles, and newts as well as all kinds of bugs for them to eat.  Hopefully they survive the winter.  The large ones have lived there at least a winter or two now but it isn't real deep (4-5 feet) and I think racoons or some other animal cleaned that pond out before.

      Good luck with your new babies.

      Brian in PA



      ---In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, <angelasfeathers@...> wrote :

      Never mind guys ....sheesh.

      OMG!  I am so  so dumb ! These are their babies! Well we now know we have at least one of the opposite sex of the 3 large goldfish in the garden patio pond . 

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56294 From: Rose Bustamante Date: 12/16/2014
      Subject: cloudy water
      A few months ago I set up a 26 gallon bow front and I have 2 three inch goldfish in there. I change 25% of water every week, the tank came with an Aqeon hang on the back filter, I have some moss balls and elodea plants. I started the tank with bacteria in a bottle and some java moss from an established tank. My last water test showed no ammonia, nitrite, and 10% nitrate. The fish are thriving but the water remains slightly cloudy. In the past when setting up a tank, there is always the "bacteria bloom" which would resolve itself after a few days. Any idea what to do? Thanks, Rose
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56295 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 12/16/2014
      Subject: Re: cloudy water
      Hi Rose,

       That sounds just about perfect conditions for your fish but of course it is no fun looking at the fog! I have a similar problem occasionally when I do a water change but that is usually gone by the next morning & I assume from your post that you have this cloudiness all the time?

      Are there times when it is more noticeable than others or is it the same all the time? If it is changing even slightly then take note of what you are doing immediately before=perhaps it is the result of feeding or a water change or a filter clean?

      Do you vacuum the gravel when you do a water change?

        John<o)))<

      On 16 December 2014 at 15:53, Rose Bustamante bustamante.rose@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      A few months ago I set up a 26 gallon bow front and I have 2 three inch goldfish in there. I change 25% of water every week, the tank came with an Aqeon hang on the back filter, I have some moss balls and elodea plants. I started the tank with bacteria in a bottle and some java moss from an established tank. My last water test showed no ammonia, nitrite, and 10% nitrate. The fish are thriving but the water remains slightly cloudy. In the past when setting up a tank, there is always the "bacteria bloom" which would resolve itself after a few days. Any idea what to do? Thanks, Rose

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56296 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 12/16/2014
      Subject: Aquarium setup
      ----------










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      Sent from my iPhone


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56297 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 12/16/2014
      Subject: Penguin 350 bio wheel
      ----------










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      Sent from my iPhone


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56298 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 12/18/2014
      Subject: Hello???
      Hey there!! How are you all? Hopefully everyone is well.

      My numbers today are nitrates 20, ammonia 8, nitrites 0, ph 6.7 and high ph 7.4,

      Some more I my fish will get re-homed today.
      The Gourami's, the tetras I can catch and one of the Angels. This will just leave 2 Angels, 2 snails, 3 panda Cory cats, 4 albino Cory cats.
      It's getting pretty sparse in there.
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56299 From: sevenspringss Date: 12/18/2014
      Subject: Re: Hello???
      AOL Email
      Hi Peg,
       
      I'm doing okay here, how about you and the bug you're fighting? 
       
      Seeing as your ammonia doubled since yesterday (which seems too fast for the smaller bioload you now have), and seeing that the Polyfilter isn't removing enough of this ammonia to keep it at a constant level, it appears you'll need to make another 50% PWC -- even though the water conditioner keeps it from being toxic.  While we need a fair amount of ammonia (ammonium) in the water column at all times while cycling the tank, it needn't be at any higher level than if you were doing a fishless cycle where 4 or 5 drops of clear household ammonia per gallon is used to get a 4 ppm reading.  This should be quite sufficient to feed the nitrifying bacteria, to get the tank cycled.  Any more ammonia than this is excessive and superfluous.  As a reminder, if changing another 50% of the water, you'll need to add 1 TBL of salt as you replace this removed water with fresh-drawn.  After the PWC, recheck your water parameters and give us those figures. 
       
      Keep a count on the days since you first did the initial 50% PWC, cleaned the filter media and vacuumed the gravel.  After about 10 days, you should see some nitrite appearing in your test results for it.  Since your nitrate is remaining the same, at 20 ppm, your pH should not have dropped to pH 6.7.  Ammonium is not acidic but is basic and so, if there were any change, the pH should have increased just a bit with more of this organic waste having been produced (higher ammonia reading being given).  I would surely expect the pH to increase with the subsequent PWC.  BTW, while still using Prime with the API test kit, you're still going to get possible erroneous reading for your ammonia tests.  You need to start thing about either changing water conditioners or changing ammonia test kit brands.
       
      The tetras are adding comparatively little to the bioload, and should also be remaining safe from ammonia toxicity as long as you're using a water conditioner we've discussed.  You may want to consider rehoming two albino Cory cats instead.   
       
      Ray
            
       
      In a message dated 12/18/2014 3:23:36 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hey there!! How are you all? Hopefully everyone is well.

      My numbers today are nitrates 20, ammonia 8, nitrites 0, ph 6.7 and high ph 7.4,

      Some more I my fish will get re-homed today.
      The Gourami's, the tetras I can catch and one of the Angels. This will just leave 2 Angels, 2 snails, 3 panda Cory cats, 4 albino Cory cats.
      It's getting pretty sparse in there.

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56300 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 12/20/2014
      Subject: Still chuggin' a long
      @As suggested yesterday I had to empty half the 55. Took me hours and I never got fully empty. Today I did the other half

      M





      Sent from my iPhone
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56301 From: sevenspringss Date: 12/20/2014
      Subject: Re: Still chuggin' a long
      AOL Email
      Sounds like it's past time you got one of those Python water changers.  Some hobbyists use a small Flotox utility pump (& two short garden hoses) that can be bought at Home Depot or Loews. Makes life a lot easier; no more lugging water around in buckets.  It should be near time that you vacuumed the other half of the substrate too. 
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 12/21/2014 1:09:42 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      @As suggested yesterday I had to empty half the 55. Took me hours and I never got fully empty. Today I did the other half

      M

      Sent from my iPhone

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56302 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 12/21/2014
      Subject: Re: Still chuggin' a long
      Hi Peg,

        Did you vacuum the gravel when you removed half the water? I'm wondering if your high ammonia reading is caused by debris sitting in your gravel.

        John<o)))<

      On 21 December 2014 at 06:19, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      Sounds like it's past time you got one of those Python water changers.  Some hobbyists use a small Flotox utility pump (& two short garden hoses) that can be bought at Home Depot or Loews. Makes life a lot easier; no more lugging water around in buckets.  It should be near time that you vacuumed the other half of the substrate too. 
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 12/21/2014 1:09:42 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      @As suggested yesterday I had to empty half the 55. Took me hours and I never got fully empty. Today I did the other half

      M

      Sent from my iPhone


      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56303 From: sevenspringss Date: 12/21/2014
      Subject: Re: Still chuggin' a long
      AOL Email
      Going back through the thread, it's clear that you made the last large PWC on the evening of 12/14.  Today would be exactly one week since you also vacuumed half the gravel at that time, so that maintenance procedure is now due unless you did that yesterday with this latest large PWC.  Actually, I don't know how much debris the gravel has held up until this time -- just as John is wondering -- but alternating (weekly) the vacuuming of half the gravel at any one time while you're cycling is the best way to go to preserve as much bacteria as you can.  If the debris was really excessive though, it would serve little purpose in holding off on the balance of this job until a week later, as the nitrifying bacteria would go into a decline when too much waste is present in/on your substrate.  A healthy nitrobacter population will take hold on your substrate with any excessive debris having been removed.  When debris accumulates to this proportion, all of it should be removed as part of your initial clean-up, but none of us could know how much debris you had last week, as you likely would not have known what was excessive or not.  I'd have assumed that if you saw it as excessive, you would have made the attempt to at least clean part of that debris up. 
      Since you hadn't even mentioned this debris as being excessive, even after vacuuming the first half, I'm assuming it was not extraordinary.  The remainder of the substrate should be cleaned now, however.  As a reminder, excessive debris in and on the gravel adversely affects the proper functioning of the UG Filter, but this is not to say it should be vacuumed to the point of starving out the beneficial bacteria.  Do you have any numbers you can give us after making the latest parameter tests after this PWC?
       
      Ray  
       
       
      In a message dated 12/21/2014 1:09:42 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      @As suggested yesterday I had to empty half the 55. Took me hours and I never got fully empty. Today I did the other half

      M

      Sent from my iPhone

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56304 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 12/21/2014
      Subject: Re: Still chuggin' a long
      Last night I was totally dead and wanting to provide more info but could not hold my head up any longer. Still trying to kick my cold which is now all upper respiratory and driving me nuts! 

      Before I forget, I've rehomed all but 3 angelfish, 3 panda Cory cats and 5 neon tetras. I tried to rehome the tetras but I couldn't catch to save my life. The Gourami's and the cats gave me a serious run for my money. 

      On 12/19 (Friday morning) my numbers were ph 6.6, hph, 7.4, ammon 8, nitrites 0 nitrates 20

      I changed 25% of the water and cleaned gravel, on top and underneath. 
      I added the 1 TBSP dissolved kosher salt when complete. 
      The numbers that night were ph 7.6, hph 7.8, ammon 8, nitrites 0, nitrates 20

      12/20 my numbers were ph 6.6, hph 7.4, Ammon 8, nitrites 0, nitrates 20
      I changed 50% of water and vacuumed all the gravel then rinsed all the filters. After complete I added 1 TBSP dissolved kosher salt, figuring I had gotten rid of what I'd it in the day before. 

      My numbers today were ph 6.8, hph 7.4, Ammon 8, nitrites .25, nitrates 20

      I also recd my kh/gh kit. I don't know how to read it yet (working on it tho) so I'll tell you how many drops of solution it took to change each.  GH 10 drops from Orange to green, KH 3 drops to yellow. Now on the kh directions it said the water should turn from blue to yellow but mine was never blue. I put a drop in and it didn't turn blue but wasn't yellow. It took 3 drops to get to yellow but before that it was just various shakes of cloudy/murky.... 
       The tap numbers here are gh 7 drops. Kh 5 drops. 

      You asked about debris I noticed in tank. Being newer I don't have a baseline to determine excessive etc but to me, the debris I've vacuumed is excessive. It's just gross to me. 

      I have ordered a Marina aquavac hoping it'll help me get to the crap deep under the gravel that I'm missing. 
      I'm to the point of wanting to empty the tank, clean it out, clean the rocks, plants etc... Change the filters and basically start over. 
      I wonder if I should chuck the under gravel filter? I've started seriously looking at canister filters and if I empty and start over I want to do it with canister filters and the penguin 350 only. ( no under gravel or hanging filter)

      Maybe I'm being excessive but it feels like I'm not making any progress.  Can this be turned around without going back to the beginning? 

      Sent from my iPhone

      On Dec 21, 2014, at 11:04 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56305 From: sevenspringss Date: 12/21/2014
      Subject: Re: Still chuggin' a long
      AOL Email
      Addressing the notations as I see them, whenever trying to net a fish, always use two nets -- one which you hold steady and one to chase the fish into this stationary net.  Chasing a fish all around the tank with only one net only serves to stress them out, often without really capturing them. 
       
      Looks like your bioload is now light enough to not cause problems in cycling.
       
      Getting right to your ammonia level of 8.0 ppm,  remaining as such even after two recent PWC's, as I believe I stated before, API's ammonia test kit only reads as high as 8.0 ppm.  When you tested for it on Friday, it could have been at 10 ppm, 12 ppm or higher.  Actually, even with disregarding a possibly higher ammonia level for a moment, a 25% PWC with having an 8.0 ppm level of ammonia could only be expected to bring it down to 6.0 ppm.  The follow-up 50% PWC should have then brought in down to 3.0 ppm, but as it hasn't, unless the test was done improperly, this indicates that your 8.0 ppm ammonia may have been higher that it registered.  For all intents and purposed, at this time while fighting the increase in ammonia, no less than 50% PWC's should be done at any time.  Is the Polyfilter turning color, and are you changing this out periodically to ensure you have active Polyfilter working? 
       
      With the lightened bioload, it's extremely unusual for the pH to have dropped that much (from pH 7.6 down to pH 6.6 with your low pH test kit), during the week and from 12/19 to 12/20.
       
      While on the topic of PWC's, while it's not essential, a 25% PWC would only require adding back 1/2 TBS of Kosher salt.  Only a 50% PWC requires a full TBS of Kosher salt being replaced.  No harm done as it's still very slight, but directions should always be followed as close as possible. 
       
      Now, back to more important issues, I'm wondering if you're reading the pH colors correctly.  When the pH is near neutral (pH 7.0), it can be harder to distinguish between the subtle shades of green and blue.  I trust you're using a piece of white cardboard to better see the colors.  That you're starting to finally get a nitrite reading is encouraging.  While you want to feed these particular nitrobacters, and while you don't want to deplete their food by removing too much of it via PWC's, the 8 ppm ammonia is more than enough of a food source for them.  You do need to get a better PWCing system other than just buckets at this time, as going forward from here you'll need to do more and larger PWC's.  I still have to wonder if you changed ammonia test kit brands or water conditioner brands to prevent possible false readings.
       
      As the 50% PWC did nothing to reduce the ammonia level, nor to raise the pH, you'll have to do a 75% PWC when you can, if you're sure of these test results and if you're changing out the Polyfilter (and still getting these high ammonia readings).  Polyfilter has a finite capacity for impurities and needs to be changed to keep it most effective.  With a 75% PWC, you'll need to add 1 1/2 TBS of Kosher salt back into the tank.  Check your tap water's pH to make sure it hasn't dropped into the acid range.  Not only will you need to reduce the ammonia level to 4.0 ppm, but you need to raise the pH back up into the alkaline range where it was previously -- if your tap water still reads pH 7.4 -- 7.6 and still has the capacity to increase your pH.
       
      Yes, this can be turned around; that you have the start of a nitrite level, the cycle is well into its beginning.  It just may take more work (more & larger PWC's) to keep things stabilized throughout it.  You can consider the 25% PWC as doing practically nothing in addressing the ammonia level even while the pH drop makes little sense at the moment. 
       
      Getting directly to the debris previously in/on your substrate, I fully expected you had no baseline to firm any comparison between very little and excessive, and so I saw no purpose in asking you if it appeared to be too much.  As the debris which you vacuumed though appeared excessive at that time, a remark of such then would have prompted me to suggest continuing cleaning all the gravel -- but then, this was never really gone into much further.  As I recommended above, this would now be the time to finish the vacuuming and no later; this should help matters although a quick turn around can't be expected.
       
      While your kh/gh kit would not be useful in cycling your tank, these parameters are always good to know.  Your posted readings of these tests are helpful in knowing that your GH is only moderately hard while you KH (temporary/carbonate hardness) is not high at all.  Actually, your KH of only 3 o (degrees) shows that its buffering capacity is quite low and that the pH can drop more easily than if this parameter were high.  Still, for the pH to drop as it did needs to have some opposing agent (i.e., an acid) counteracting the effects of the normally higher pH.  Unless your tap water now tests out as being slightly acid, the pH should rise with temporarily more and larger PWC's.  A question while on this topic; do you have well water?  As for a canister filter, you can't go wrong with one.  As far as starting over, there's really no sense in doing that now, when you have the beginnings of cycle, and as you have fish.  By now I'm sure you see it's much harder to cycle a tank having fish in it as you can't let the parameters of the nitrogen cycle become excessive.  With the nitrite now beginning to rise, this is all the more reason why you'll need to keep on top of PWCing to keep this parameter down -- especially if the pH tends to remain on the acid side).  Doing a fishless cycle requires very little (if any) PWCing, except at the very end to remove the excess nitrate.    
       
      Ray
                  
       
      In a message dated 12/21/2014 12:58:51 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Last night I was totally dead and wanting to provide more info but could not hold my head up any longer. Still trying to kick my cold which is now all upper respiratory and driving me nuts! 

      Before I forget, I've rehomed all but 3 angelfish, 3 panda Cory cats and 5 neon tetras. I tried to rehome the tetras but I couldn't catch to save my life. The Gourami's and the cats gave me a serious run for my money. 

      On 12/19 (Friday morning) my numbers were ph 6.6, hph, 7.4, ammon 8, nitrites 0 nitrates 20

      I changed 25% of the water and cleaned gravel, on top and underneath. 
      I added the 1 TBSP dissolved kosher salt when complete. 
      The numbers that night were ph 7.6, hph 7.8, ammon 8, nitrites 0, nitrates 20

      12/20 my numbers were ph 6.6, hph 7.4, Ammon 8, nitrites 0, nitrates 20
      I changed 50% of water and vacuumed all the gravel then rinsed all the filters. After complete I added 1 TBSP dissolved kosher salt, figuring I had gotten rid of what I'd it in the day before. 

      My numbers today were ph 6.8, hph 7.4, Ammon 8, nitrites .25, nitrates 20

      I also recd my kh/gh kit. I don't know how to read it yet (working on it tho) so I'll tell you how many drops of solution it took to change each.  GH 10 drops from Orange to green, KH 3 drops to yellow. Now on the kh directions it said the water should turn from blue to yellow but mine was never blue. I put a drop in and it didn't turn blue but wasn't yellow. It took 3 drops to get to yellow but before that it was just various shakes of cloudy/murky.... 
       The tap numbers here are gh 7 drops. Kh 5 drops. 

      You asked about debris I noticed in tank. Being newer I don't have a baseline to determine excessive etc but to me, the debris I've vacuumed is excessive. It's just gross to me. 

      I have ordered a Marina aquavac hoping it'll help me get to the crap deep under the gravel that I'm missing. 
      I'm to the point of wanting to empty the tank, clean it out, clean the rocks, plants etc... Change the filters and basically start over. 
      I wonder if I should chuck the under gravel filter? I've started seriously looking at canister filters and if I empty and start over I want to do it with canister filters and the penguin 350 only. ( no under gravel or hanging filter)

      Maybe I'm being excessive but it feels like I'm not making any progress.  Can this be turned around without going back to the beginning? 

      Sent from my iPhone

      On Dec 21, 2014, at 11:04 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56306 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 12/21/2014
      Subject: Re: Still chuggin' a long
      Yea i did vacuum but i dont have a lot of should or arm strength so its really hard to keep at it.

      I have ordered a  Marina Aquavac. Itll be here tomorrow. No more bucket luggin for me.

      Peg
      Soon Opening: Hoopin' It Up Designs
                                Custom Embroidery & Embellishments

      On Dec 21, 2014, at 5:22 AM, SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Hi Peg,

        Did you vacuum the gravel when you removed half the water? I'm wondering if your high ammonia reading is caused by debris sitting in your gravel.

        John<o)))<

      On 21 December 2014 at 06:19, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      Sounds like it's past time you got one of those Python water changers.  Some hobbyists use a small Flotox utility pump (& two short garden hoses) that can be bought at Home Depot or Loews. Makes life a lot easier; no more lugging water around in buckets.  It should be near time that you vacuumed the other half of the substrate too. 
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 12/21/2014 1:09:42 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      @As suggested yesterday I had to empty half the 55. Took me hours and I never got fully empty. Today I did the other half

      M

      Sent from my iPhone


      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56307 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 12/21/2014
      Subject: Re: Still chuggin' a long
      Yes still using the poly in the hang on filter. I change it every 4-5 days. When I take it out it has some gray matter on it but not excessive.

      I have a problem with some of the test kit colors. In comparing them it's hard to tell where they fall sometimes though so I ask hubby to give it a look too. As for the ammonia testing, I've ordered a Seachem Ammonia test that should be here in the next day or so.

      You asked about well water. We're on city water but they tell us that they soften it. I can't tell it though dance I have hard water spots everywhere and they never come off.

      I've been looking at several canister filters. Maybe you could take a look and off advice or suggestions on what I need to look for.

      These are ones I've looked at so far: 




      After reading reviews I'd like the cascade but I'd like yo the uv sterilizer. Can you recommend others to look at?



      Sent from my iPad

      On Dec 21, 2014, at 2:33 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Addressing the notations as I see them, whenever trying to net a fish, always use two nets -- one which you hold steady and one to chase the fish into this stationary net.  Chasing a fish all around the tank with only one net only serves to stress them out, often without really capturing them. 
       
      Looks like your bioload is now light enough to not cause problems in cycling.
       
      Getting right to your ammonia level of 8.0 ppm,  remaining as such even after two recent PWC's, as I believe I stated before, API's ammonia test kit only reads as high as 8.0 ppm.  When you tested for it on Friday, it could have been at 10 ppm, 12 ppm or higher.  Actually, even with disregarding a possibly higher ammonia level for a moment, a 25% PWC with having an 8.0 ppm level of ammonia could only be expected to bring it down to 6.0 ppm.  The follow-up 50% PWC should have then brought in down to 3.0 ppm, but as it hasn't, unless the test was done improperly, this indicates that your 8.0 ppm ammonia may have been higher that it registered.  For all intents and purposed, at this time while fighting the increase in ammonia, no less than 50% PWC's should be done at any time.  Is the Polyfilter turning color, and are you changing this out periodically to ensure you have active Polyfilter working? 
       
      With the lightened bioload, it's extremely unusual for the pH to have dropped that much (from pH 7.6 down to pH 6.6 with your low pH test kit), during the week and from 12/19 to 12/20.
       
      While on the topic of PWC's, while it's not essential, a 25% PWC would only require adding back 1/2 TBS of Kosher salt.  Only a 50% PWC requires a full TBS of Kosher salt being replaced.  No harm done as it's still very slight, but directions should always be followed as close as possible. 
       
      Now, back to more important issues, I'm wondering if you're reading the pH colors correctly.  When the pH is near neutral (pH 7.0), it can be harder to distinguish between the subtle shades of green and blue.  I trust you're using a piece of white cardboard to better see the colors.  That you're starting to finally get a nitrite reading is encouraging.  While you want to feed these particular nitrobacters, and while you don't want to deplete their food by removing too much of it via PWC's, the 8 ppm ammonia is more than enough of a food source for them.  You do need to get a better PWCing system other than just buckets at this time, as going forward from here you'll need to do more and larger PWC's.  I still have to wonder if you changed ammonia test kit brands or water conditioner brands to prevent possible false readings.
       
      As the 50% PWC did nothing to reduce the ammonia level, nor to raise the pH, you'll have to do a 75% PWC when you can, if you're sure of these test results and if you're changing out the Polyfilter (and still getting these high ammonia readings).  Polyfilter has a finite capacity for impurities and needs to be changed to keep it most effective.  With a 75% PWC, you'll need to add 1 1/2 TBS of Kosher salt back into the tank.  Check your tap water's pH to make sure it hasn't dropped into the acid range.  Not only will you need to reduce the ammonia level to 4.0 ppm, but you need to raise the pH back up into the alkaline range where it was previously -- if your tap water still reads pH 7.4 -- 7.6 and still has the capacity to increase your pH.
       
      Yes, this can be turned around; that you have the start of a nitrite level, the cycle is well into its beginning.  It just may take more work (more & larger PWC's) to keep things stabilized throughout it.  You can consider the 25% PWC as doing practically nothing in addressing the ammonia level even while the pH drop makes little sense at the moment. 
       
      Getting directly to the debris previously in/on your substrate, I fully expected you had no baseline to firm any comparison between very little and excessive, and so I saw no purpose in asking you if it appeared to be too much.  As the debris which you vacuumed though appeared excessive at that time, a remark of such then would have prompted me to suggest continuing cleaning all the gravel -- but then, this was never really gone into much further.  As I recommended above, this would now be the time to finish the vacuuming and no later; this should help matters although a quick turn around can't be expected.
       
      While your kh/gh kit would not be useful in cycling your tank, these parameters are always good to know.  Your posted readings of these tests are helpful in knowing that your GH is only moderately hard while you KH (temporary/carbonate hardness) is not high at all.  Actually, your KH of only 3 o (degrees) shows that its buffering capacity is quite low and that the pH can drop more easily than if this parameter were high.  Still, for the pH to drop as it did needs to have some opposing agent (i.e., an acid) counteracting the effects of the normally higher pH.  Unless your tap water now tests out as being slightly acid, the pH should rise with temporarily more and larger PWC's.  A question while on this topic; do you have well water?  As for a canister filter, you can't go wrong with one.  As far as starting over, there's really no sense in doing that now, when you have the beginnings of cycle, and as you have fish.  By now I'm sure you see it's much harder to cycle a tank having fish in it as you can't let the parameters of the nitrogen cycle become excessive.  With the nitrite now beginning to rise, this is all the more reason why you'll need to keep on top of PWCing to keep this parameter down -- especially if the pH tends to remain on the acid side).  Doing a fishless cycle requires very little (if any) PWCing, except at the very end to remove the excess nitrate.    
       

      Ray
                  
       
      In a message dated 12/21/2014 12:58:51 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Last night I was totally dead and wanting to provide more info but could not hold my head up any longer. Still trying to kick my cold which is now all upper respiratory and driving me nuts! 

      Before I forget, I've rehomed all but 3 angelfish, 3 panda Cory cats and 5 neon tetras. I tried to rehome the tetras but I couldn't catch to save my life. The Gourami's and the cats gave me a serious run for my money. 

      On 12/19 (Friday morning) my numbers were ph 6.6, hph, 7.4, ammon 8, nitrites 0 nitrates 20

      I changed 25% of the water and cleaned gravel, on top and underneath. 
      I added the 1 TBSP dissolved kosher salt when complete. 
      The numbers that night were ph 7.6, hph 7.8, ammon 8, nitrites 0, nitrates 20

      12/20 my numbers were ph 6.6, hph 7.4, Ammon 8, nitrites 0, nitrates 20
      I changed 50% of water and vacuumed all the gravel then rinsed all the filters. After complete I added 1 TBSP dissolved kosher salt, figuring I had gotten rid of what I'd it in the day before. 

      My numbers today were ph 6.8, hph 7.4, Ammon 8, nitrites .25, nitrates 20

      I also recd my kh/gh kit. I don't know how to read it yet (working on it tho) so I'll tell you how many drops of solution it took to change each.  GH 10 drops from Orange to green, KH 3 drops to yellow. Now on the kh directions it said the water should turn from blue to yellow but mine was never blue. I put a drop in and it didn't turn blue but wasn't yellow. It took 3 drops to get to yellow but before that it was just various shakes of cloudy/murky.... 
       The tap numbers here are gh 7 drops. Kh 5 drops. 

      You asked about debris I noticed in tank. Being newer I don't have a baseline to determine excessive etc but to me, the debris I've vacuumed is excessive. It's just gross to me. 

      I have ordered a Marina aquavac hoping it'll help me get to the crap deep under the gravel that I'm missing. 
      I'm to the point of wanting to empty the tank, clean it out, clean the rocks, plants etc... Change the filters and basically start over. 
      I wonder if I should chuck the under gravel filter? I've started seriously looking at canister filters and if I empty and start over I want to do it with canister filters and the penguin 350 only. ( no under gravel or hanging filter)

      Maybe I'm being excessive but it feels like I'm not making any progress.  Can this be turned around without going back to the beginning? 

      Sent from my iPhone

      On Dec 21, 2014, at 11:04 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56308 From: sevenspringss Date: 12/21/2014
      Subject: Re: Still chuggin' a long
      AOL Email
      Yes, some hobbyists have a problem distinguishing the test result colors.  Not only might the Seachem ammonia kit show stronger colors but it will eliminate any possible false readings due to using Prime at this same time.
       
      On your softened city water, this is all the more reason why you need to test your tap water daily to know its parameters (especially pH) every day, which appears are fluctuating daily.  Besides possibly explaining the large differences in pH from day to day, or at least from week to week, it could be a source of ammonia especially if they use a large concentration of chloramine.  Chloramine concentrations are often higher in the Winter anyhow, not necessarily because water companies add more, but because colder water holds more.  You need to test for this also, in your tap water. 
       
      The two canister filters you offer for consideration are certainly priced right but they're not even near the top of the line.  Besides, the first one (the SunSun model 304B) is meant for a 150 gallon aquarium and rated at a water flow rate of 525 gallons per hour.  If your thinking that this much-larger-than-needed filter would be for efficient, this high of a flow rate would virtually blow your fish out of the water < g > in your 55 gallon tank. 
       
      Even the Penn Cascade filter you cite is meant for a much larger, 100 gallon aquarium, and has a flow rate of 265 gallons per hour -- more compatible with your 55 gallon tank than the SunSun model, although some hobbyist would say it's somewhat excessive depending on the size of your fish.  This flow rate is built into other filters recommended for tank capacities up to 70 gallons.  A better value in the long run -- and perhaps you can find a sale on it soon -- is a Fluval canister filter, which in my estimation is top of the line.  Their Model 306 is designed for aquaria up to 70 gallons, with a flow rate of 303 gallons per hour.  While this flow rate is also somewhat higher than necessary for your 55 gallon aquarium, their Model 305 (also designed for tanks up to 70 gallons) has a more moderate flow rate of 260 gallons per hour -- still slightly high for a 55 gallon tank but still doable, especially if having mostly larger fish.  What I like about the Fluval filters besides their superb design is their large capacity for filter media. Their Models 206 and 306 have three media baskets as opposed to Penn-Plax's two such containers.  
       
       Yes, Fluval offers a Model 206, which is designed for tanks up to 40 gallons, but which has a good flow rate of 206 gallons per hour.  This flow rate is quite adequate for a 55 gallon tank and should be well suitable for your application.  In comparison, Marineland's Model C-220, meant for a 55 gallon tank, has a flow rate of 220 gallons per hour, whereas the Eheim Model 2213-37 canister filter recommended by them for up to a 65 gallon tank has a flow rate of 116 gallons per hour and the Penn-Plax Cascade 700, recommended by them for tanks up to 65 gallons has a flow rate of 185 gallons per hour.  The Fluval 206 would seem the way to go, with a good, but not too strong, flow rate and media capacity.  I've offered other options only to give you more choices, but I believe this Model 206 would be about the best choice.
       
      As far as second in design to the Fluval filters, Eheim rates far up there but still can't hold a candle to Fluval's over all superiority.  Amazon appears to have the Fluval Model 206 on sale now @ $113.15.  As for having a built in UV sterilizer, the SunSun models are the only canister filters I'm aware of that contain a built-in UV sterilizer, including their large Model HW-304B which you gave a link to, but only this manufacturers' larger filters have this feature.  The slightly smaller SunSun Model 302B, designed for the much larger (than your 55) 75 gallon tank -- and having three filter chambers -- doesn't even have a UV sterilizer, and this filter has a too-large-of-a-flow rate for your smaller fish to be comfortable, of 264 gallons per hour .          
       
      UV sterilization in canister filters is mainly designed for the marine application.  I'm not sure why you'd want a UV sterilizer except for it sounding like it might be an advantage, but not only are UV sterilizers not designed (not intended) for freshwater aquaria, but after some time they will greatly lower your fishes' immune system's tolerance to pathogens since these fish will no longer be exposed to them.  When adding any new fish at a later date, which normally could carry any types of pathogens with them, your present fish will be extremely susceptible to contracting any disease brought in.  While UV sterilizers are commonly used in the Koi and Goldfish ponds, they're used primarily to control suspended algae.  They can be used for the same purpose in the aquarium, but at this risk. 
       
      Ray    
       
       
       
      In a message dated 12/21/2014 9:48:34 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Yes still using the poly in the hang on filter. I change it every 4-5 days. When I take it out it has some gray matter on it but not excessive.

      I have a problem with some of the test kit colors. In comparing them it's hard to tell where they fall sometimes though so I ask hubby to give it a look too. As for the ammonia testing, I've ordered a Seachem Ammonia test that should be here in the next day or so.

      You asked about well water. We're on city water but they tell us that they soften it. I can't tell it though dance I have hard water spots everywhere and they never come off.

      I've been looking at several canister filters. Maybe you could take a look and off advice or suggestions on what I need to look for.

      These are ones I've looked at so far: 




      After reading reviews I'd like the cascade but I'd like yo the uv sterilizer. Can you recommend others to look at?



      Sent from my iPad

      On Dec 21, 2014, at 2:33 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Addressing the notations as I see them, whenever trying to net a fish, always use two nets -- one which you hold steady and one to chase the fish into this stationary net.  Chasing a fish all around the tank with only one net only serves to stress them out, often without really capturing them. 
       
      Looks like your bioload is now light enough to not cause problems in cycling.
       
      Getting right to your ammonia level of 8.0 ppm,  remaining as such even after two recent PWC's, as I believe I stated before, API's ammonia test kit only reads as high as 8.0 ppm.  When you tested for it on Friday, it could have been at 10 ppm, 12 ppm or higher.  Actually, even with disregarding a possibly higher ammonia level for a moment, a 25% PWC with having an 8.0 ppm level of ammonia could only be expected to bring it down to 6.0 ppm.  The follow-up 50% PWC should have then brought in down to 3.0 ppm, but as it hasn't, unless the test was done improperly, this indicates that your 8.0 ppm ammonia may have been higher that it registered.  For all intents and purposed, at this time while fighting the increase in ammonia, no less than 50% PWC's should be done at any time.  Is the Polyfilter turning color, and are you changing this out periodically to ensure you have active Polyfilter working? 
       
      With the lightened bioload, it's extremely unusual for the pH to have dropped that much (from pH 7.6 down to pH 6.6 with your low pH test kit), during the week and from 12/19 to 12/20.
       
      While on the topic of PWC's, while it's not essential, a 25% PWC would only require adding back 1/2 TBS of Kosher salt.  Only a 50% PWC requires a full TBS of Kosher salt being replaced.  No harm done as it's still very slight, but directions should always be followed as close as possible. 
       
      Now, back to more important issues, I'm wondering if you're reading the pH colors correctly.  When the pH is near neutral (pH 7.0), it can be harder to distinguish between the subtle shades of green and blue.  I trust you're using a piece of white cardboard to better see the colors.  That you're starting to finally get a nitrite reading is encouraging.  While you want to feed these particular nitrobacters, and while you don't want to deplete their food by removing too much of it via PWC's, the 8 ppm ammonia is more than enough of a food source for them.  You do need to get a better PWCing system other than just buckets at this time, as going forward from here you'll need to do more and larger PWC's.  I still have to wonder if you changed ammonia test kit brands or water conditioner brands to prevent possible false readings.
       
      As the 50% PWC did nothing to reduce the ammonia level, nor to raise the pH, you'll have to do a 75% PWC when you can, if you're sure of these test results and if you're changing out the Polyfilter (and still getting these high ammonia readings).  Polyfilter has a finite capacity for impurities and needs to be changed to keep it most effective.  With a 75% PWC, you'll need to add 1 1/2 TBS of Kosher salt back into the tank.  Check your tap water's pH to make sure it hasn't dropped into the acid range.  Not only will you need to reduce the ammonia level to 4.0 ppm, but you need to raise the pH back up into the alkaline range where it was previously -- if your tap water still reads pH 7.4 -- 7.6 and still has the capacity to increase your pH.
       
      Yes, this can be turned around; that you have the start of a nitrite level, the cycle is well into its beginning.  It just may take more work (more & larger PWC's) to keep things stabilized throughout it.  You can consider the 25% PWC as doing practically nothing in addressing the ammonia level even while the pH drop makes little sense at the moment. 
       
      Getting directly to the debris previously in/on your substrate, I fully expected you had no baseline to firm any comparison between very little and excessive, and so I saw no purpose in asking you if it appeared to be too much.  As the debris which you vacuumed though appeared excessive at that time, a remark of such then would have prompted me to suggest continuing cleaning all the gravel -- but then, this was never really gone into much further.  As I recommended above, this would now be the time to finish the vacuuming and no later; this should help matters although a quick turn around can't be expected.
       
      While your kh/gh kit would not be useful in cycling your tank, these parameters are always good to know.  Your posted readings of these tests are helpful in knowing that your GH is only moderately hard while you KH (temporary/carbonate hardness) is not high at all.  Actually, your KH of only 3 o (degrees) shows that its buffering capacity is quite low and that the pH can drop more easily than if this parameter were high.  Still, for the pH to drop as it did needs to have some opposing agent (i.e., an acid) counteracting the effects of the normally higher pH.  Unless your tap water now tests out as being slightly acid, the pH should rise with temporarily more and larger PWC's.  A question while on this topic; do you have well water?  As for a canister filter, you can't go wrong with one.  As far as starting over, there's really no sense in doing that now, when you have the beginnings of cycle, and as you have fish.  By now I'm sure you see it's much harder to cycle a tank having fish in it as you can't let the parameters of the nitrogen cycle become excessive.  With the nitrite now beginning to rise, this is all the more reason why you'll need to keep on top of PWCing to keep this parameter down -- especially if the pH tends to remain on the acid side).  Doing a fishless cycle requires very little (if any) PWCing, except at the very end to remove the excess nitrate.    
       

      Ray
                  
       
      In a message dated 12/21/2014 12:58:51 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Last night I was totally dead and wanting to provide more info but could not hold my head up any longer. Still trying to kick my cold which is now all upper respiratory and driving me nuts! 

      Before I forget, I've rehomed all but 3 angelfish, 3 panda Cory cats and 5 neon tetras. I tried to rehome the tetras but I couldn't catch to save my life. The Gourami's and the cats gave me a serious run for my money. 

      On 12/19 (Friday morning) my numbers were ph 6.6, hph, 7.4, ammon 8, nitrites 0 nitrates 20

      I changed 25% of the water and cleaned gravel, on top and underneath. 
      I added the 1 TBSP dissolved kosher salt when complete. 
      The numbers that night were ph 7.6, hph 7.8, ammon 8, nitrites 0, nitrates 20

      12/20 my numbers were ph 6.6, hph 7.4, Ammon 8, nitrites 0, nitrates 20
      I changed 50% of water and vacuumed all the gravel then rinsed all the filters. After complete I added 1 TBSP dissolved kosher salt, figuring I had gotten rid of what I'd it in the day before. 

      My numbers today were ph 6.8, hph 7.4, Ammon 8, nitrites .25, nitrates 20

      I also recd my kh/gh kit. I don't know how to read it yet (working on it tho) so I'll tell you how many drops of solution it took to change each.  GH 10 drops from Orange to green, KH 3 drops to yellow. Now on the kh directions it said the water should turn from blue to yellow but mine was never blue. I put a drop in and it didn't turn blue but wasn't yellow. It took 3 drops to get to yellow but before that it was just various shakes of cloudy/murky.... 
       The tap numbers here are gh 7 drops. Kh 5 drops. 

      You asked about debris I noticed in tank. Being newer I don't have a baseline to determine excessive etc but to me, the debris I've vacuumed is excessive. It's just gross to me. 

      I have ordered a Marina aquavac hoping it'll help me get to the crap deep under the gravel that I'm missing. 
      I'm to the point of wanting to empty the tank, clean it out, clean the rocks, plants etc... Change the filters and basically start over. 
      I wonder if I should chuck the under gravel filter? I've started seriously looking at canister filters and if I empty and start over I want to do it with canister filters and the penguin 350 only. ( no under gravel or hanging filter)

      Maybe I'm being excessive but it feels like I'm not making any progress.  Can this be turned around without going back to the beginning? 

      Sent from my iPhone

      On Dec 21, 2014, at 11:04 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56309 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 12/22/2014
      Subject: Re: Still chuggin' a long
      I ended up buying the Fluval 206. Just starting to look set paperwork. I'm sure it'll be a bear!!

      Sent from my iPad

      On Dec 22, 2014, at 12:58 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Yes, some hobbyists have a problem distinguishing the test result colors.  Not only might the Seachem ammonia kit show stronger colors but it will eliminate any possible false readings due to using Prime at this same time.
       
      On your softened city water, this is all the more reason why you need to test your tap water daily to know its parameters (especially pH) every day, which appears are fluctuating daily.  Besides possibly explaining the large differences in pH from day to day, or at least from week to week, it could be a source of ammonia especially if they use a large concentration of chloramine.  Chloramine concentrations are often higher in the Winter anyhow, not necessarily because water companies add more, but because colder water holds more.  You need to test for this also, in your tap water. 
       
      The two canister filters you offer for consideration are certainly priced right but they're not even near the top of the line.  Besides, the first one (the SunSun model 304B) is meant for a 150 gallon aquarium and rated at a water flow rate of 525 gallons per hour.  If your thinking that this much-larger-than-needed filter would be for efficient, this high of a flow rate would virtually blow your fish out of the water < g > in your 55 gallon tank. 
       
      Even the Penn Cascade filter you cite is meant for a much larger, 100 gallon aquarium, and has a flow rate of 265 gallons per hour -- more compatible with your 55 gallon tank than the SunSun model, although some hobbyist would say it's somewhat excessive depending on the size of your fish.  This flow rate is built into other filters recommended for tank capacities up to 70 gallons.  A better value in the long run -- and perhaps you can find a sale on it soon -- is a Fluval canister filter, which in my estimation is top of the line.  Their Model 306 is designed for aquaria up to 70 gallons, with a flow rate of 303 gallons per hour.  While this flow rate is also somewhat higher than necessary for your 55 gallon aquarium, their Model 305 (also designed for tanks up to 70 gallons) has a more moderate flow rate of 260 gallons per hour -- still slightly high for a 55 gallon tank but still doable, especially if having mostly larger fish.  What I like about the Fluval filters besides their superb design is their large capacity for filter media. Their Models 206 and 306 have three media baskets as opposed to Penn-Plax's two such containers.  
       
       Yes, Fluval offers a Model 206, which is designed for tanks up to 40 gallons, but which has a good flow rate of 206 gallons per hour.  This flow rate is quite adequate for a 55 gallon tank and should be well suitable for your application.  In comparison, Marineland's Model C-220, meant for a 55 gallon tank, has a flow rate of 220 gallons per hour, whereas the Eheim Model 2213-37 canister filter recommended by them for up to a 65 gallon tank has a flow rate of 116 gallons per hour and the Penn-Plax Cascade 700, recommended by them for tanks up to 65 gallons has a flow rate of 185 gallons per hour.  The Fluval 206 would seem the way to go, with a good, but not too strong, flow rate and media capacity.  I've offered other options only to give you more choices, but I believe this Model 206 would be about the best choice.
       
      As far as second in design to the Fluval filters, Eheim rates far up there but still can't hold a candle to Fluval's over all superiority.  Amazon appears to have the Fluval Model 206 on sale now @ $113.15.  As for having a built in UV sterilizer, the SunSun models are the only canister filters I'm aware of that contain a built-in UV sterilizer, including their large Model HW-304B which you gave a link to, but only this manufacturers' larger filters have this feature.  The slightly smaller SunSun Model 302B, designed for the much larger (than your 55) 75 gallon tank -- and having three filter chambers -- doesn't even have a UV sterilizer, and this filter has a too-large-of-a-flow rate for your smaller fish to be comfortable, of 264 gallons per hour .          
       
      UV sterilization in canister filters is mainly designed for the marine application.  I'm not sure why you'd want a UV sterilizer except for it sounding like it might be an advantage, but not only are UV sterilizers not designed (not intended) for freshwater aquaria, but after some time they will greatly lower your fishes' immune system's tolerance to pathogens since these fish will no longer be exposed to them.  When adding any new fish at a later date, which normally could carry any types of pathogens with them, your present fish will be extremely susceptible to contracting any disease brought in.  While UV sterilizers are commonly used in the Koi and Goldfish ponds, they're used primarily to control suspended algae.  They can be used for the same purpose in the aquarium, but at this risk. 
       
      Ray    
       
       
       
      In a message dated 12/21/2014 9:48:34 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Yes still using the poly in the hang on filter. I change it every 4-5 days. When I take it out it has some gray matter on it but not excessive.

      I have a problem with some of the test kit colors. In comparing them it's hard to tell where they fall sometimes though so I ask hubby to give it a look too. As for the ammonia testing, I've ordered a Seachem Ammonia test that should be here in the next day or so.

      You asked about well water. We're on city water but they tell us that they soften it. I can't tell it though dance I have hard water spots everywhere and they never come off.

      I've been looking at several canister filters. Maybe you could take a look and off advice or suggestions on what I need to look for.

      These are ones I've looked at so far: 




      After reading reviews I'd like the cascade but I'd like yo the uv sterilizer. Can you recommend others to look at?



      Sent from my iPad

      On Dec 21, 2014, at 2:33 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Addressing the notations as I see them, whenever trying to net a fish, always use two nets -- one which you hold steady and one to chase the fish into this stationary net.  Chasing a fish all around the tank with only one net only serves to stress them out, often without really capturing them. 
       
      Looks like your bioload is now light enough to not cause problems in cycling.
       
      Getting right to your ammonia level of 8.0 ppm,  remaining as such even after two recent PWC's, as I believe I stated before, API's ammonia test kit only reads as high as 8.0 ppm.  When you tested for it on Friday, it could have been at 10 ppm, 12 ppm or higher.  Actually, even with disregarding a possibly higher ammonia level for a moment, a 25% PWC with having an 8.0 ppm level of ammonia could only be expected to bring it down to 6.0 ppm.  The follow-up 50% PWC should have then brought in down to 3.0 ppm, but as it hasn't, unless the test was done improperly, this indicates that your 8.0 ppm ammonia may have been higher that it registered.  For all intents and purposed, at this time while fighting the increase in ammonia, no less than 50% PWC's should be done at any time.  Is the Polyfilter turning color, and are you changing this out periodically to ensure you have active Polyfilter working? 
       
      With the lightened bioload, it's extremely unusual for the pH to have dropped that much (from pH 7.6 down to pH 6.6 with your low pH test kit), during the week and from 12/19 to 12/20.
       
      While on the topic of PWC's, while it's not essential, a 25% PWC would only require adding back 1/2 TBS of Kosher salt.  Only a 50% PWC requires a full TBS of Kosher salt being replaced.  No harm done as it's still very slight, but directions should always be followed as close as possible. 
       
      Now, back to more important issues, I'm wondering if you're reading the pH colors correctly.  When the pH is near neutral (pH 7.0), it can be harder to distinguish between the subtle shades of green and blue.  I trust you're using a piece of white cardboard to better see the colors.  That you're starting to finally get a nitrite reading is encouraging.  While you want to feed these particular nitrobacters, and while you don't want to deplete their food by removing too much of it via PWC's, the 8 ppm ammonia is more than enough of a food source for them.  You do need to get a better PWCing system other than just buckets at this time, as going forward from here you'll need to do more and larger PWC's.  I still have to wonder if you changed ammonia test kit brands or water conditioner brands to prevent possible false readings.
       
      As the 50% PWC did nothing to reduce the ammonia level, nor to raise the pH, you'll have to do a 75% PWC when you can, if you're sure of these test results and if you're changing out the Polyfilter (and still getting these high ammonia readings).  Polyfilter has a finite capacity for impurities and needs to be changed to keep it most effective.  With a 75% PWC, you'll need to add 1 1/2 TBS of Kosher salt back into the tank.  Check your tap water's pH to make sure it hasn't dropped into the acid range.  Not only will you need to reduce the ammonia level to 4.0 ppm, but you need to raise the pH back up into the alkaline range where it was previously -- if your tap water still reads pH 7.4 -- 7.6 and still has the capacity to increase your pH.
       
      Yes, this can be turned around; that you have the start of a nitrite level, the cycle is well into its beginning.  It just may take more work (more & larger PWC's) to keep things stabilized throughout it.  You can consider the 25% PWC as doing practically nothing in addressing the ammonia level even while the pH drop makes little sense at the moment. 
       
      Getting directly to the debris previously in/on your substrate, I fully expected you had no baseline to firm any comparison between very little and excessive, and so I saw no purpose in asking you if it appeared to be too much.  As the debris which you vacuumed though appeared excessive at that time, a remark of such then would have prompted me to suggest continuing cleaning all the gravel -- but then, this was never really gone into much further.  As I recommended above, this would now be the time to finish the vacuuming and no later; this should help matters although a quick turn around can't be expected.
       
      While your kh/gh kit would not be useful in cycling your tank, these parameters are always good to know.  Your posted readings of these tests are helpful in knowing that your GH is only moderately hard while you KH (temporary/carbonate hardness) is not high at all.  Actually, your KH of only 3 o (degrees) shows that its buffering capacity is quite low and that the pH can drop more easily than if this parameter were high.  Still, for the pH to drop as it did needs to have some opposing agent (i.e., an acid) counteracting the effects of the normally higher pH.  Unless your tap water now tests out as being slightly acid, the pH should rise with temporarily more and larger PWC's.  A question while on this topic; do you have well water?  As for a canister filter, you can't go wrong with one.  As far as starting over, there's really no sense in doing that now, when you have the beginnings of cycle, and as you have fish.  By now I'm sure you see it's much harder to cycle a tank having fish in it as you can't let the parameters of the nitrogen cycle become excessive.  With the nitrite now beginning to rise, this is all the more reason why you'll need to keep on top of PWCing to keep this parameter down -- especially if the pH tends to remain on the acid side).  Doing a fishless cycle requires very little (if any) PWCing, except at the very end to remove the excess nitrate.    
       

      Ray
                  
       
      In a message dated 12/21/2014 12:58:51 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Last night I was totally dead and wanting to provide more info but could not hold my head up any longer. Still trying to kick my cold which is now all upper respiratory and driving me nuts! 

      Before I forget, I've rehomed all but 3 angelfish, 3 panda Cory cats and 5 neon tetras. I tried to rehome the tetras but I couldn't catch to save my life. The Gourami's and the cats gave me a serious run for my money. 

      On 12/19 (Friday morning) my numbers were ph 6.6, hph, 7.4, ammon 8, nitrites 0 nitrates 20

      I changed 25% of the water and cleaned gravel, on top and underneath. 
      I added the 1 TBSP dissolved kosher salt when complete. 
      The numbers that night were ph 7.6, hph 7.8, ammon 8, nitrites 0, nitrates 20

      12/20 my numbers were ph 6.6, hph 7.4, Ammon 8, nitrites 0, nitrates 20
      I changed 50% of water and vacuumed all the gravel then rinsed all the filters. After complete I added 1 TBSP dissolved kosher salt, figuring I had gotten rid of what I'd it in the day before. 

      My numbers today were ph 6.8, hph 7.4, Ammon 8, nitrites .25, nitrates 20

      I also recd my kh/gh kit. I don't know how to read it yet (working on it tho) so I'll tell you how many drops of solution it took to change each.  GH 10 drops from Orange to green, KH 3 drops to yellow. Now on the kh directions it said the water should turn from blue to yellow but mine was never blue. I put a drop in and it didn't turn blue but wasn't yellow. It took 3 drops to get to yellow but before that it was just various shakes of cloudy/murky.... 
       The tap numbers here are gh 7 drops. Kh 5 drops. 

      You asked about debris I noticed in tank. Being newer I don't have a baseline to determine excessive etc but to me, the debris I've vacuumed is excessive. It's just gross to me. 

      I have ordered a Marina aquavac hoping it'll help me get to the crap deep under the gravel that I'm missing. 
      I'm to the point of wanting to empty the tank, clean it out, clean the rocks, plants etc... Change the filters and basically start over. 
      I wonder if I should chuck the under gravel filter? I've started seriously looking at canister filters and if I empty and start over I want to do it with canister filters and the penguin 350 only. ( no under gravel or hanging filter)

      Maybe I'm being excessive but it feels like I'm not making any progress.  Can this be turned around without going back to the beginning? 

      Sent from my iPhone

      On Dec 21, 2014, at 11:04 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56310 From: sevenspringss Date: 12/22/2014
      Subject: Re: Still chuggin' a long
      AOL Email
      Good choice; I'm sure you're going to like it.  Everyone I know who has this brand appreciates them very much.  You can't go wrong and this size is ideal for your needs.
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 12/22/2014 9:30:00 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      I ended up buying the Fluval 206. Just starting to look set paperwork. I'm sure it'll be a bear!!

      Sent from my iPad

      On Dec 22, 2014, at 12:58 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Yes, some hobbyists have a problem distinguishing the test result colors.  Not only might the Seachem ammonia kit show stronger colors but it will eliminate any possible false readings due to using Prime at this same time.
       
      On your softened city water, this is all the more reason why you need to test your tap water daily to know its parameters (especially pH) every day, which appears are fluctuating daily.  Besides possibly explaining the large differences in pH from day to day, or at least from week to week, it could be a source of ammonia especially if they use a large concentration of chloramine.  Chloramine concentrations are often higher in the Winter anyhow, not necessarily because water companies add more, but because colder water holds more.  You need to test for this also, in your tap water. 
       
      The two canister filters you offer for consideration are certainly priced right but they're not even near the top of the line.  Besides, the first one (the SunSun model 304B) is meant for a 150 gallon aquarium and rated at a water flow rate of 525 gallons per hour.  If your thinking that this much-larger-than-needed filter would be for efficient, this high of a flow rate would virtually blow your fish out of the water < g > in your 55 gallon tank. 
       
      Even the Penn Cascade filter you cite is meant for a much larger, 100 gallon aquarium, and has a flow rate of 265 gallons per hour -- more compatible with your 55 gallon tank than the SunSun model, although some hobbyist would say it's somewhat excessive depending on the size of your fish.  This flow rate is built into other filters recommended for tank capacities up to 70 gallons.  A better value in the long run -- and perhaps you can find a sale on it soon -- is a Fluval canister filter, which in my estimation is top of the line.  Their Model 306 is designed for aquaria up to 70 gallons, with a flow rate of 303 gallons per hour.  While this flow rate is also somewhat higher than necessary for your 55 gallon aquarium, their Model 305 (also designed for tanks up to 70 gallons) has a more moderate flow rate of 260 gallons per hour -- still slightly high for a 55 gallon tank but still doable, especially if having mostly larger fish.  What I like about the Fluval filters besides their superb design is their large capacity for filter media. Their Models 206 and 306 have three media baskets as opposed to Penn-Plax's two such containers.  
       
       Yes, Fluval offers a Model 206, which is designed for tanks up to 40 gallons, but which has a good flow rate of 206 gallons per hour.  This flow rate is quite adequate for a 55 gallon tank and should be well suitable for your application.  In comparison, Marineland's Model C-220, meant for a 55 gallon tank, has a flow rate of 220 gallons per hour, whereas the Eheim Model 2213-37 canister filter recommended by them for up to a 65 gallon tank has a flow rate of 116 gallons per hour and the Penn-Plax Cascade 700, recommended by them for tanks up to 65 gallons has a flow rate of 185 gallons per hour.  The Fluval 206 would seem the way to go, with a good, but not too strong, flow rate and media capacity.  I've offered other options only to give you more choices, but I believe this Model 206 would be about the best choice.
       
      As far as second in design to the Fluval filters, Eheim rates far up there but still can't hold a candle to Fluval's over all superiority.  Amazon appears to have the Fluval Model 206 on sale now @ $113.15.  As for having a built in UV sterilizer, the SunSun models are the only canister filters I'm aware of that contain a built-in UV sterilizer, including their large Model HW-304B which you gave a link to, but only this manufacturers' larger filters have this feature.  The slightly smaller SunSun Model 302B, designed for the much larger (than your 55) 75 gallon tank -- and having three filter chambers -- doesn't even have a UV sterilizer, and this filter has a too-large-of-a-flow rate for your smaller fish to be comfortable, of 264 gallons per hour .          
       
      UV sterilization in canister filters is mainly designed for the marine application.  I'm not sure why you'd want a UV sterilizer except for it sounding like it might be an advantage, but not only are UV sterilizers not designed (not intended) for freshwater aquaria, but after some time they will greatly lower your fishes' immune system's tolerance to pathogens since these fish will no longer be exposed to them.  When adding any new fish at a later date, which normally could carry any types of pathogens with them, your present fish will be extremely susceptible to contracting any disease brought in.  While UV sterilizers are commonly used in the Koi and Goldfish ponds, they're used primarily to control suspended algae.  They can be used for the same purpose in the aquarium, but at this risk. 
       
      Ray    
       
       
       
      In a message dated 12/21/2014 9:48:34 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Yes still using the poly in the hang on filter. I change it every 4-5 days. When I take it out it has some gray matter on it but not excessive.

      I have a problem with some of the test kit colors. In comparing them it's hard to tell where they fall sometimes though so I ask hubby to give it a look too. As for the ammonia testing, I've ordered a Seachem Ammonia test that should be here in the next day or so.

      You asked about well water. We're on city water but they tell us that they soften it. I can't tell it though dance I have hard water spots everywhere and they never come off.

      I've been looking at several canister filters. Maybe you could take a look and off advice or suggestions on what I need to look for.

      These are ones I've looked at so far: 




      After reading reviews I'd like the cascade but I'd like yo the uv sterilizer. Can you recommend others to look at?



      Sent from my iPad

      On Dec 21, 2014, at 2:33 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Addressing the notations as I see them, whenever trying to net a fish, always use two nets -- one which you hold steady and one to chase the fish into this stationary net.  Chasing a fish all around the tank with only one net only serves to stress them out, often without really capturing them. 
       
      Looks like your bioload is now light enough to not cause problems in cycling.
       
      Getting right to your ammonia level of 8.0 ppm,  remaining as such even after two recent PWC's, as I believe I stated before, API's ammonia test kit only reads as high as 8.0 ppm.  When you tested for it on Friday, it could have been at 10 ppm, 12 ppm or higher.  Actually, even with disregarding a possibly higher ammonia level for a moment, a 25% PWC with having an 8.0 ppm level of ammonia could only be expected to bring it down to 6.0 ppm.  The follow-up 50% PWC should have then brought in down to 3.0 ppm, but as it hasn't, unless the test was done improperly, this indicates that your 8.0 ppm ammonia may have been higher that it registered.  For all intents and purposed, at this time while fighting the increase in ammonia, no less than 50% PWC's should be done at any time.  Is the Polyfilter turning color, and are you changing this out periodically to ensure you have active Polyfilter working? 
       
      With the lightened bioload, it's extremely unusual for the pH to have dropped that much (from pH 7.6 down to pH 6.6 with your low pH test kit), during the week and from 12/19 to 12/20.
       
      While on the topic of PWC's, while it's not essential, a 25% PWC would only require adding back 1/2 TBS of Kosher salt.  Only a 50% PWC requires a full TBS of Kosher salt being replaced.  No harm done as it's still very slight, but directions should always be followed as close as possible. 
       
      Now, back to more important issues, I'm wondering if you're reading the pH colors correctly.  When the pH is near neutral (pH 7.0), it can be harder to distinguish between the subtle shades of green and blue.  I trust you're using a piece of white cardboard to better see the colors.  That you're starting to finally get a nitrite reading is encouraging.  While you want to feed these particular nitrobacters, and while you don't want to deplete their food by removing too much of it via PWC's, the 8 ppm ammonia is more than enough of a food source for them.  You do need to get a better PWCing system other than just buckets at this time, as going forward from here you'll need to do more and larger PWC's.  I still have to wonder if you changed ammonia test kit brands or water conditioner brands to prevent possible false readings.
       
      As the 50% PWC did nothing to reduce the ammonia level, nor to raise the pH, you'll have to do a 75% PWC when you can, if you're sure of these test results and if you're changing out the Polyfilter (and still getting these high ammonia readings).  Polyfilter has a finite capacity for impurities and needs to be changed to keep it most effective.  With a 75% PWC, you'll need to add 1 1/2 TBS of Kosher salt back into the tank.  Check your tap water's pH to make sure it hasn't dropped into the acid range.  Not only will you need to reduce the ammonia level to 4.0 ppm, but you need to raise the pH back up into the alkaline range where it was previously -- if your tap water still reads pH 7.4 -- 7.6 and still has the capacity to increase your pH.
       
      Yes, this can be turned around; that you have the start of a nitrite level, the cycle is well into its beginning.  It just may take more work (more & larger PWC's) to keep things stabilized throughout it.  You can consider the 25% PWC as doing practically nothing in addressing the ammonia level even while the pH drop makes little sense at the moment. 
       
      Getting directly to the debris previously in/on your substrate, I fully expected you had no baseline to firm any comparison between very little and excessive, and so I saw no purpose in asking you if it appeared to be too much.  As the debris which you vacuumed though appeared excessive at that time, a remark of such then would have prompted me to suggest continuing cleaning all the gravel -- but then, this was never really gone into much further.  As I recommended above, this would now be the time to finish the vacuuming and no later; this should help matters although a quick turn around can't be expected.
       
      While your kh/gh kit would not be useful in cycling your tank, these parameters are always good to know.  Your posted readings of these tests are helpful in knowing that your GH is only moderately hard while you KH (temporary/carbonate hardness) is not high at all.  Actually, your KH of only 3 o (degrees) shows that its buffering capacity is quite low and that the pH can drop more easily than if this parameter were high.  Still, for the pH to drop as it did needs to have some opposing agent (i.e., an acid) counteracting the effects of the normally higher pH.  Unless your tap water now tests out as being slightly acid, the pH should rise with temporarily more and larger PWC's.  A question while on this topic; do you have well water?  As for a canister filter, you can't go wrong with one.  As far as starting over, there's really no sense in doing that now, when you have the beginnings of cycle, and as you have fish.  By now I'm sure you see it's much harder to cycle a tank having fish in it as you can't let the parameters of the nitrogen cycle become excessive.  With the nitrite now beginning to rise, this is all the more reason why you'll need to keep on top of PWCing to keep this parameter down -- especially if the pH tends to remain on the acid side).  Doing a fishless cycle requires very little (if any) PWCing, except at the very end to remove the excess nitrate.    
       

      Ray
                  
       
      In a message dated 12/21/2014 12:58:51 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Last night I was totally dead and wanting to provide more info but could not hold my head up any longer. Still trying to kick my cold which is now all upper respiratory and driving me nuts! 

      Before I forget, I've rehomed all but 3 angelfish, 3 panda Cory cats and 5 neon tetras. I tried to rehome the tetras but I couldn't catch to save my life. The Gourami's and the cats gave me a serious run for my money. 

      On 12/19 (Friday morning) my numbers were ph 6.6, hph, 7.4, ammon 8, nitrites 0 nitrates 20

      I changed 25% of the water and cleaned gravel, on top and underneath. 
      I added the 1 TBSP dissolved kosher salt when complete. 
      The numbers that night were ph 7.6, hph 7.8, ammon 8, nitrites 0, nitrates 20

      12/20 my numbers were ph 6.6, hph 7.4, Ammon 8, nitrites 0, nitrates 20
      I changed 50% of water and vacuumed all the gravel then rinsed all the filters. After complete I added 1 TBSP dissolved kosher salt, figuring I had gotten rid of what I'd it in the day before. 

      My numbers today were ph 6.8, hph 7.4, Ammon 8, nitrites .25, nitrates 20

      I also recd my kh/gh kit. I don't know how to read it yet (working on it tho) so I'll tell you how many drops of solution it took to change each.  GH 10 drops from Orange to green, KH 3 drops to yellow. Now on the kh directions it said the water should turn from blue to yellow but mine was never blue. I put a drop in and it didn't turn blue but wasn't yellow. It took 3 drops to get to yellow but before that it was just various shakes of cloudy/murky.... 
       The tap numbers here are gh 7 drops. Kh 5 drops. 

      You asked about debris I noticed in tank. Being newer I don't have a baseline to determine excessive etc but to me, the debris I've vacuumed is excessive. It's just gross to me. 

      I have ordered a Marina aquavac hoping it'll help me get to the crap deep under the gravel that I'm missing. 
      I'm to the point of wanting to empty the tank, clean it out, clean the rocks, plants etc... Change the filters and basically start over. 
      I wonder if I should chuck the under gravel filter? I've started seriously looking at canister filters and if I empty and start over I want to do it with canister filters and the penguin 350 only. ( no under gravel or hanging filter)

      Maybe I'm being excessive but it feels like I'm not making any progress.  Can this be turned around without going back to the beginning? 

      Sent from my iPhone

      On Dec 21, 2014, at 11:04 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56311 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 12/23/2014
      Subject: Re: Still chuggin' a long
      Hi Peg,

        It's a very good make-you will be fine! I've used Fluval internal filters in smaller tanks in the past & they never let me down, I still have those filters & occasionally use them either in hospital tanks or lend them out & they still perform like the day I bought them.

       John<o)))<

      On 23 December 2014 at 02:33, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      Good choice; I'm sure you're going to like it.  Everyone I know who has this brand appreciates them very much.  You can't go wrong and this size is ideal for your needs.
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 12/22/2014 9:30:00 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      I ended up buying the Fluval 206. Just starting to look set paperwork. I'm sure it'll be a bear!!

      Sent from my iPad

      On Dec 22, 2014, at 12:58 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Yes, some hobbyists have a problem distinguishing the test result colors.  Not only might the Seachem ammonia kit show stronger colors but it will eliminate any possible false readings due to using Prime at this same time.
       
      On your softened city water, this is all the more reason why you need to test your tap water daily to know its parameters (especially pH) every day, which appears are fluctuating daily.  Besides possibly explaining the large differences in pH from day to day, or at least from week to week, it could be a source of ammonia especially if they use a large concentration of chloramine.  Chloramine concentrations are often higher in the Winter anyhow, not necessarily because water companies add more, but because colder water holds more.  You need to test for this also, in your tap water. 
       
      The two canister filters you offer for consideration are certainly priced right but they're not even near the top of the line.  Besides, the first one (the SunSun model 304B) is meant for a 150 gallon aquarium and rated at a water flow rate of 525 gallons per hour.  If your thinking that this much-larger-than-needed filter would be for efficient, this high of a flow rate would virtually blow your fish out of the water < g > in your 55 gallon tank. 
       
      Even the Penn Cascade filter you cite is meant for a much larger, 100 gallon aquarium, and has a flow rate of 265 gallons per hour -- more compatible with your 55 gallon tank than the SunSun model, although some hobbyist would say it's somewhat excessive depending on the size of your fish.  This flow rate is built into other filters recommended for tank capacities up to 70 gallons.  A better value in the long run -- and perhaps you can find a sale on it soon -- is a Fluval canister filter, which in my estimation is top of the line.  Their Model 306 is designed for aquaria up to 70 gallons, with a flow rate of 303 gallons per hour.  While this flow rate is also somewhat higher than necessary for your 55 gallon aquarium, their Model 305 (also designed for tanks up to 70 gallons) has a more moderate flow rate of 260 gallons per hour -- still slightly high for a 55 gallon tank but still doable, especially if having mostly larger fish.  What I like about the Fluval filters besides their superb design is their large capacity for filter media. Their Models 206 and 306 have three media baskets as opposed to Penn-Plax's two such containers.  
       
       Yes, Fluval offers a Model 206, which is designed for tanks up to 40 gallons, but which has a good flow rate of 206 gallons per hour.  This flow rate is quite adequate for a 55 gallon tank and should be well suitable for your application.  In comparison, Marineland's Model C-220, meant for a 55 gallon tank, has a flow rate of 220 gallons per hour, whereas the Eheim Model 2213-37 canister filter recommended by them for up to a 65 gallon tank has a flow rate of 116 gallons per hour and the Penn-Plax Cascade 700, recommended by them for tanks up to 65 gallons has a flow rate of 185 gallons per hour.  The Fluval 206 would seem the way to go, with a good, but not too strong, flow rate and media capacity.  I've offered other options only to give you more choices, but I believe this Model 206 would be about the best choice.
       
      As far as second in design to the Fluval filters, Eheim rates far up there but still can't hold a candle to Fluval's over all superiority.  Amazon appears to have the Fluval Model 206 on sale now @ $113.15.  As for having a built in UV sterilizer, the SunSun models are the only canister filters I'm aware of that contain a built-in UV sterilizer, including their large Model HW-304B which you gave a link to, but only this manufacturers' larger filters have this feature.  The slightly smaller SunSun Model 302B, designed for the much larger (than your 55) 75 gallon tank -- and having three filter chambers -- doesn't even have a UV sterilizer, and this filter has a too-large-of-a-flow rate for your smaller fish to be comfortable, of 264 gallons per hour .          
       
      UV sterilization in canister filters is mainly designed for the marine application.  I'm not sure why you'd want a UV sterilizer except for it sounding like it might be an advantage, but not only are UV sterilizers not designed (not intended) for freshwater aquaria, but after some time they will greatly lower your fishes' immune system's tolerance to pathogens since these fish will no longer be exposed to them.  When adding any new fish at a later date, which normally could carry any types of pathogens with them, your present fish will be extremely susceptible to contracting any disease brought in.  While UV sterilizers are commonly used in the Koi and Goldfish ponds, they're used primarily to control suspended algae.  They can be used for the same purpose in the aquarium, but at this risk. 
       
      Ray    
       
       
       
      In a message dated 12/21/2014 9:48:34 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Yes still using the poly in the hang on filter. I change it every 4-5 days. When I take it out it has some gray matter on it but not excessive.

      I have a problem with some of the test kit colors. In comparing them it's hard to tell where they fall sometimes though so I ask hubby to give it a look too. As for the ammonia testing, I've ordered a Seachem Ammonia test that should be here in the next day or so.

      You asked about well water. We're on city water but they tell us that they soften it. I can't tell it though dance I have hard water spots everywhere and they never come off.

      I've been looking at several canister filters. Maybe you could take a look and off advice or suggestions on what I need to look for.

      These are ones I've looked at so far: 




      After reading reviews I'd like the cascade but I'd like yo the uv sterilizer. Can you recommend others to look at?



      Sent from my iPad

      On Dec 21, 2014, at 2:33 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Addressing the notations as I see them, whenever trying to net a fish, always use two nets -- one which you hold steady and one to chase the fish into this stationary net.  Chasing a fish all around the tank with only one net only serves to stress them out, often without really capturing them. 
       
      Looks like your bioload is now light enough to not cause problems in cycling.
       
      Getting right to your ammonia level of 8.0 ppm,  remaining as such even after two recent PWC's, as I believe I stated before, API's ammonia test kit only reads as high as 8.0 ppm.  When you tested for it on Friday, it could have been at 10 ppm, 12 ppm or higher.  Actually, even with disregarding a possibly higher ammonia level for a moment, a 25% PWC with having an 8.0 ppm level of ammonia could only be expected to bring it down to 6.0 ppm.  The follow-up 50% PWC should have then brought in down to 3.0 ppm, but as it hasn't, unless the test was done improperly, this indicates that your 8.0 ppm ammonia may have been higher that it registered.  For all intents and purposed, at this time while fighting the increase in ammonia, no less than 50% PWC's should be done at any time.  Is the Polyfilter turning color, and are you changing this out periodically to ensure you have active Polyfilter working? 
       
      With the lightened bioload, it's extremely unusual for the pH to have dropped that much (from pH 7.6 down to pH 6.6 with your low pH test kit), during the week and from 12/19 to 12/20.
       
      While on the topic of PWC's, while it's not essential, a 25% PWC would only require adding back 1/2 TBS of Kosher salt.  Only a 50% PWC requires a full TBS of Kosher salt being replaced.  No harm done as it's still very slight, but directions should always be followed as close as possible. 
       
      Now, back to more important issues, I'm wondering if you're reading the pH colors correctly.  When the pH is near neutral (pH 7.0), it can be harder to distinguish between the subtle shades of green and blue.  I trust you're using a piece of white cardboard to better see the colors.  That you're starting to finally get a nitrite reading is encouraging.  While you want to feed these particular nitrobacters, and while you don't want to deplete their food by removing too much of it via PWC's, the 8 ppm ammonia is more than enough of a food source for them.  You do need to get a better PWCing system other than just buckets at this time, as going forward from here you'll need to do more and larger PWC's.  I still have to wonder if you changed ammonia test kit brands or water conditioner brands to prevent possible false readings.
       
      As the 50% PWC did nothing to reduce the ammonia level, nor to raise the pH, you'll have to do a 75% PWC when you can, if you're sure of these test results and if you're changing out the Polyfilter (and still getting these high ammonia readings).  Polyfilter has a finite capacity for impurities and needs to be changed to keep it most effective.  With a 75% PWC, you'll need to add 1 1/2 TBS of Kosher salt back into the tank.  Check your tap water's pH to make sure it hasn't dropped into the acid range.  Not only will you need to reduce the ammonia level to 4.0 ppm, but you need to raise the pH back up into the alkaline range where it was previously -- if your tap water still reads pH 7.4 -- 7.6 and still has the capacity to increase your pH.
       
      Yes, this can be turned around; that you have the start of a nitrite level, the cycle is well into its beginning.  It just may take more work (more & larger PWC's) to keep things stabilized throughout it.  You can consider the 25% PWC as doing practically nothing in addressing the ammonia level even while the pH drop makes little sense at the moment. 
       
      Getting directly to the debris previously in/on your substrate, I fully expected you had no baseline to firm any comparison between very little and excessive, and so I saw no purpose in asking you if it appeared to be too much.  As the debris which you vacuumed though appeared excessive at that time, a remark of such then would have prompted me to suggest continuing cleaning all the gravel -- but then, this was never really gone into much further.  As I recommended above, this would now be the time to finish the vacuuming and no later; this should help matters although a quick turn around can't be expected.
       
      While your kh/gh kit would not be useful in cycling your tank, these parameters are always good to know.  Your posted readings of these tests are helpful in knowing that your GH is only moderately hard while you KH (temporary/carbonate hardness) is not high at all.  Actually, your KH of only 3 o (degrees) shows that its buffering capacity is quite low and that the pH can drop more easily than if this parameter were high.  Still, for the pH to drop as it did needs to have some opposing agent (i.e., an acid) counteracting the effects of the normally higher pH.  Unless your tap water now tests out as being slightly acid, the pH should rise with temporarily more and larger PWC's.  A question while on this topic; do you have well water?  As for a canister filter, you can't go wrong with one.  As far as starting over, there's really no sense in doing that now, when you have the beginnings of cycle, and as you have fish.  By now I'm sure you see it's much harder to cycle a tank having fish in it as you can't let the parameters of the nitrogen cycle become excessive.  With the nitrite now beginning to rise, this is all the more reason why you'll need to keep on top of PWCing to keep this parameter down -- especially if the pH tends to remain on the acid side).  Doing a fishless cycle requires very little (if any) PWCing, except at the very end to remove the excess nitrate.    
       

      Ray
                  
       
      In a message dated 12/21/2014 12:58:51 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Last night I was totally dead and wanting to provide more info but could not hold my head up any longer. Still trying to kick my cold which is now all upper respiratory and driving me nuts! 

      Before I forget, I've rehomed all but 3 angelfish, 3 panda Cory cats and 5 neon tetras. I tried to rehome the tetras but I couldn't catch to save my life. The Gourami's and the cats gave me a serious run for my money. 

      On 12/19 (Friday morning) my numbers were ph 6.6, hph, 7.4, ammon 8, nitrites 0 nitrates 20

      I changed 25% of the water and cleaned gravel, on top and underneath. 
      I added the 1 TBSP dissolved kosher salt when complete. 
      The numbers that night were ph 7.6, hph 7.8, ammon 8, nitrites 0, nitrates 20

      12/20 my numbers were ph 6.6, hph 7.4, Ammon 8, nitrites 0, nitrates 20
      I changed 50% of water and vacuumed all the gravel then rinsed all the filters. After complete I added 1 TBSP dissolved kosher salt, figuring I had gotten rid of what I'd it in the day before. 

      My numbers today were ph 6.8, hph 7.4, Ammon 8, nitrites .25, nitrates 20

      I also recd my kh/gh kit. I don't know how to read it yet (working on it tho) so I'll tell you how many drops of solution it took to change each.  GH 10 drops from Orange to green, KH 3 drops to yellow. Now on the kh directions it said the water should turn from blue to yellow but mine was never blue. I put a drop in and it didn't turn blue but wasn't yellow. It took 3 drops to get to yellow but before that it was just various shakes of cloudy/murky.... 
       The tap numbers here are gh 7 drops. Kh 5 drops. 

      You asked about debris I noticed in tank. Being newer I don't have a baseline to determine excessive etc but to me, the debris I've vacuumed is excessive. It's just gross to me. 

      I have ordered a Marina aquavac hoping it'll help me get to the crap deep under the gravel that I'm missing. 
      I'm to the point of wanting to empty the tank, clean it out, clean the rocks, plants etc... Change the filters and basically start over. 
      I wonder if I should chuck the under gravel filter? I've started seriously looking at canister filters and if I empty and start over I want to do it with canister filters and the penguin 350 only. ( no under gravel or hanging filter)

      Maybe I'm being excessive but it feels like I'm not making any progress.  Can this be turned around without going back to the beginning? 

      Sent from my iPhone

      On Dec 21, 2014, at 11:04 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:



      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56312 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 12/23/2014
      Subject: Re: Still chuggin' a long
      Thanks! Looking forward to getting it set up but a little intimidated by the book of instructions

      Sent from my iPhone

      On Dec 23, 2014, at 7:15 AM, SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Hi Peg,

        It's a very good make-you will be fine! I've used Fluval internal filters in smaller tanks in the past & they never let me down, I still have those filters & occasionally use them either in hospital tanks or lend them out & they still perform like the day I bought them.

       John<o)))<

      On 23 December 2014 at 02:33, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      Good choice; I'm sure you're going to like it.  Everyone I know who has this brand appreciates them very much.  You can't go wrong and this size is ideal for your needs.
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 12/22/2014 9:30:00 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      I ended up buying the Fluval 206. Just starting to look set paperwork. I'm sure it'll be a bear!!

      Sent from my iPad

      On Dec 22, 2014, at 12:58 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Yes, some hobbyists have a problem distinguishing the test result colors.  Not only might the Seachem ammonia kit show stronger colors but it will eliminate any possible false readings due to using Prime at this same time.
       
      On your softened city water, this is all the more reason why you need to test your tap water daily to know its parameters (especially pH) every day, which appears are fluctuating daily.  Besides possibly explaining the large differences in pH from day to day, or at least from week to week, it could be a source of ammonia especially if they use a large concentration of chloramine.  Chloramine concentrations are often higher in the Winter anyhow, not necessarily because water companies add more, but because colder water holds more.  You need to test for this also, in your tap water. 
       
      The two canister filters you offer for consideration are certainly priced right but they're not even near the top of the line.  Besides, the first one (the SunSun model 304B) is meant for a 150 gallon aquarium and rated at a water flow rate of 525 gallons per hour.  If your thinking that this much-larger-than-needed filter would be for efficient, this high of a flow rate would virtually blow your fish out of the water < g > in your 55 gallon tank. 
       
      Even the Penn Cascade filter you cite is meant for a much larger, 100 gallon aquarium, and has a flow rate of 265 gallons per hour -- more compatible with your 55 gallon tank than the SunSun model, although some hobbyist would say it's somewhat excessive depending on the size of your fish.  This flow rate is built into other filters recommended for tank capacities up to 70 gallons.  A better value in the long run -- and perhaps you can find a sale on it soon -- is a Fluval canister filter, which in my estimation is top of the line.  Their Model 306 is designed for aquaria up to 70 gallons, with a flow rate of 303 gallons per hour.  While this flow rate is also somewhat higher than necessary for your 55 gallon aquarium, their Model 305 (also designed for tanks up to 70 gallons) has a more moderate flow rate of 260 gallons per hour -- still slightly high for a 55 gallon tank but still doable, especially if having mostly larger fish.  What I like about the Fluval filters besides their superb design is their large capacity for filter media. Their Models 206 and 306 have three media baskets as opposed to Penn-Plax's two such containers.  
       
       Yes, Fluval offers a Model 206, which is designed for tanks up to 40 gallons, but which has a good flow rate of 206 gallons per hour.  This flow rate is quite adequate for a 55 gallon tank and should be well suitable for your application.  In comparison, Marineland's Model C-220, meant for a 55 gallon tank, has a flow rate of 220 gallons per hour, whereas the Eheim Model 2213-37 canister filter recommended by them for up to a 65 gallon tank has a flow rate of 116 gallons per hour and the Penn-Plax Cascade 700, recommended by them for tanks up to 65 gallons has a flow rate of 185 gallons per hour.  The Fluval 206 would seem the way to go, with a good, but not too strong, flow rate and media capacity.  I've offered other options only to give you more choices, but I believe this Model 206 would be about the best choice.
       
      As far as second in design to the Fluval filters, Eheim rates far up there but still can't hold a candle to Fluval's over all superiority.  Amazon appears to have the Fluval Model 206 on sale now @ $113.15.  As for having a built in UV sterilizer, the SunSun models are the only canister filters I'm aware of that contain a built-in UV sterilizer, including their large Model HW-304B which you gave a link to, but only this manufacturers' larger filters have this feature.  The slightly smaller SunSun Model 302B, designed for the much larger (than your 55) 75 gallon tank -- and having three filter chambers -- doesn't even have a UV sterilizer, and this filter has a too-large-of-a-flow rate for your smaller fish to be comfortable, of 264 gallons per hour .          
       
      UV sterilization in canister filters is mainly designed for the marine application.  I'm not sure why you'd want a UV sterilizer except for it sounding like it might be an advantage, but not only are UV sterilizers not designed (not intended) for freshwater aquaria, but after some time they will greatly lower your fishes' immune system's tolerance to pathogens since these fish will no longer be exposed to them.  When adding any new fish at a later date, which normally could carry any types of pathogens with them, your present fish will be extremely susceptible to contracting any disease brought in.  While UV sterilizers are commonly used in the Koi and Goldfish ponds, they're used primarily to control suspended algae.  They can be used for the same purpose in the aquarium, but at this risk. 
       
      Ray    
       
       
       
      In a message dated 12/21/2014 9:48:34 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Yes still using the poly in the hang on filter. I change it every 4-5 days. When I take it out it has some gray matter on it but not excessive.

      I have a problem with some of the test kit colors. In comparing them it's hard to tell where they fall sometimes though so I ask hubby to give it a look too. As for the ammonia testing, I've ordered a Seachem Ammonia test that should be here in the next day or so.

      You asked about well water. We're on city water but they tell us that they soften it. I can't tell it though dance I have hard water spots everywhere and they never come off.

      I've been looking at several canister filters. Maybe you could take a look and off advice or suggestions on what I need to look for.

      These are ones I've looked at so far: 




      After reading reviews I'd like the cascade but I'd like yo the uv sterilizer. Can you recommend others to look at?



      Sent from my iPad

      On Dec 21, 2014, at 2:33 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Addressing the notations as I see them, whenever trying to net a fish, always use two nets -- one which you hold steady and one to chase the fish into this stationary net.  Chasing a fish all around the tank with only one net only serves to stress them out, often without really capturing them. 
       
      Looks like your bioload is now light enough to not cause problems in cycling.
       
      Getting right to your ammonia level of 8.0 ppm,  remaining as such even after two recent PWC's, as I believe I stated before, API's ammonia test kit only reads as high as 8.0 ppm.  When you tested for it on Friday, it could have been at 10 ppm, 12 ppm or higher.  Actually, even with disregarding a possibly higher ammonia level for a moment, a 25% PWC with having an 8.0 ppm level of ammonia could only be expected to bring it down to 6.0 ppm.  The follow-up 50% PWC should have then brought in down to 3.0 ppm, but as it hasn't, unless the test was done improperly, this indicates that your 8.0 ppm ammonia may have been higher that it registered.  For all intents and purposed, at this time while fighting the increase in ammonia, no less than 50% PWC's should be done at any time.  Is the Polyfilter turning color, and are you changing this out periodically to ensure you have active Polyfilter working? 
       
      With the lightened bioload, it's extremely unusual for the pH to have dropped that much (from pH 7.6 down to pH 6.6 with your low pH test kit), during the week and from 12/19 to 12/20.
       
      While on the topic of PWC's, while it's not essential, a 25% PWC would only require adding back 1/2 TBS of Kosher salt.  Only a 50% PWC requires a full TBS of Kosher salt being replaced.  No harm done as it's still very slight, but directions should always be followed as close as possible. 
       
      Now, back to more important issues, I'm wondering if you're reading the pH colors correctly.  When the pH is near neutral (pH 7.0), it can be harder to distinguish between the subtle shades of green and blue.  I trust you're using a piece of white cardboard to better see the colors.  That you're starting to finally get a nitrite reading is encouraging.  While you want to feed these particular nitrobacters, and while you don't want to deplete their food by removing too much of it via PWC's, the 8 ppm ammonia is more than enough of a food source for them.  You do need to get a better PWCing system other than just buckets at this time, as going forward from here you'll need to do more and larger PWC's.  I still have to wonder if you changed ammonia test kit brands or water conditioner brands to prevent possible false readings.
       
      As the 50% PWC did nothing to reduce the ammonia level, nor to raise the pH, you'll have to do a 75% PWC when you can, if you're sure of these test results and if you're changing out the Polyfilter (and still getting these high ammonia readings).  Polyfilter has a finite capacity for impurities and needs to be changed to keep it most effective.  With a 75% PWC, you'll need to add 1 1/2 TBS of Kosher salt back into the tank.  Check your tap water's pH to make sure it hasn't dropped into the acid range.  Not only will you need to reduce the ammonia level to 4.0 ppm, but you need to raise the pH back up into the alkaline range where it was previously -- if your tap water still reads pH 7.4 -- 7.6 and still has the capacity to increase your pH.
       
      Yes, this can be turned around; that you have the start of a nitrite level, the cycle is well into its beginning.  It just may take more work (more & larger PWC's) to keep things stabilized throughout it.  You can consider the 25% PWC as doing practically nothing in addressing the ammonia level even while the pH drop makes little sense at the moment. 
       
      Getting directly to the debris previously in/on your substrate, I fully expected you had no baseline to firm any comparison between very little and excessive, and so I saw no purpose in asking you if it appeared to be too much.  As the debris which you vacuumed though appeared excessive at that time, a remark of such then would have prompted me to suggest continuing cleaning all the gravel -- but then, this was never really gone into much further.  As I recommended above, this would now be the time to finish the vacuuming and no later; this should help matters although a quick turn around can't be expected.
       
      While your kh/gh kit would not be useful in cycling your tank, these parameters are always good to know.  Your posted readings of these tests are helpful in knowing that your GH is only moderately hard while you KH (temporary/carbonate hardness) is not high at all.  Actually, your KH of only 3 o (degrees) shows that its buffering capacity is quite low and that the pH can drop more easily than if this parameter were high.  Still, for the pH to drop as it did needs to have some opposing agent (i.e., an acid) counteracting the effects of the normally higher pH.  Unless your tap water now tests out as being slightly acid, the pH should rise with temporarily more and larger PWC's.  A question while on this topic; do you have well water?  As for a canister filter, you can't go wrong with one.  As far as starting over, there's really no sense in doing that now, when you have the beginnings of cycle, and as you have fish.  By now I'm sure you see it's much harder to cycle a tank having fish in it as you can't let the parameters of the nitrogen cycle become excessive.  With the nitrite now beginning to rise, this is all the more reason why you'll need to keep on top of PWCing to keep this parameter down -- especially if the pH tends to remain on the acid side).  Doing a fishless cycle requires very little (if any) PWCing, except at the very end to remove the excess nitrate.    
       

      Ray
                  
       
      In a message dated 12/21/2014 12:58:51 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Last night I was totally dead and wanting to provide more info but could not hold my head up any longer. Still trying to kick my cold which is now all upper respiratory and driving me nuts! 

      Before I forget, I've rehomed all but 3 angelfish, 3 panda Cory cats and 5 neon tetras. I tried to rehome the tetras but I couldn't catch to save my life. The Gourami's and the cats gave me a serious run for my money. 

      On 12/19 (Friday morning) my numbers were ph 6.6, hph, 7.4, ammon 8, nitrites 0 nitrates 20

      I changed 25% of the water and cleaned gravel, on top and underneath. 
      I added the 1 TBSP dissolved kosher salt when complete. 
      The numbers that night were ph 7.6, hph 7.8, ammon 8, nitrites 0, nitrates 20

      12/20 my numbers were ph 6.6, hph 7.4, Ammon 8, nitrites 0, nitrates 20
      I changed 50% of water and vacuumed all the gravel then rinsed all the filters. After complete I added 1 TBSP dissolved kosher salt, figuring I had gotten rid of what I'd it in the day before. 

      My numbers today were ph 6.8, hph 7.4, Ammon 8, nitrites .25, nitrates 20

      I also recd my kh/gh kit. I don't know how to read it yet (working on it tho) so I'll tell you how many drops of solution it took to change each.  GH 10 drops from Orange to green, KH 3 drops to yellow. Now on the kh directions it said the water should turn from blue to yellow but mine was never blue. I put a drop in and it didn't turn blue but wasn't yellow. It took 3 drops to get to yellow but before that it was just various shakes of cloudy/murky.... 
       The tap numbers here are gh 7 drops. Kh 5 drops. 

      You asked about debris I noticed in tank. Being newer I don't have a baseline to determine excessive etc but to me, the debris I've vacuumed is excessive. It's just gross to me. 

      I have ordered a Marina aquavac hoping it'll help me get to the crap deep under the gravel that I'm missing. 
      I'm to the point of wanting to empty the tank, clean it out, clean the rocks, plants etc... Change the filters and basically start over. 
      I wonder if I should chuck the under gravel filter? I've started seriously looking at canister filters and if I empty and start over I want to do it with canister filters and the penguin 350 only. ( no under gravel or hanging filter)

      Maybe I'm being excessive but it feels like I'm not making any progress.  Can this be turned around without going back to the beginning? 

      Sent from my iPhone

      On Dec 21, 2014, at 11:04 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:



      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56313 From: sevenspringss Date: 12/23/2014
      Subject: Re: Still chuggin' a long
      AOL Email
      If there's anything you don't understand about the instructions just ask here and I'm sure someone can help you -- or ask on the other group, as I believe Donna bought a Fluval a short time back after I sent her an Eheim that she wasn't completely happy with.  I know she could help you.
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 12/23/2014 12:19:06 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Thanks! Looking forward to getting it set up but a little intimidated by the book of instructions

      Sent from my iPhone

      On Dec 23, 2014, at 7:15 AM, SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Hi Peg,

        It's a very good make-you will be fine! I've used Fluval internal filters in smaller tanks in the past & they never let me down, I still have those filters & occasionally use them either in hospital tanks or lend them out & they still perform like the day I bought them.

       John<o)))<

      On 23 December 2014 at 02:33, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      Good choice; I'm sure you're going to like it.  Everyone I know who has this brand appreciates them very much.  You can't go wrong and this size is ideal for your needs.
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 12/22/2014 9:30:00 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      I ended up buying the Fluval 206. Just starting to look set paperwork. I'm sure it'll be a bear!!

      Sent from my iPad

      On Dec 22, 2014, at 12:58 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Yes, some hobbyists have a problem distinguishing the test result colors.  Not only might the Seachem ammonia kit show stronger colors but it will eliminate any possible false readings due to using Prime at this same time.
       
      On your softened city water, this is all the more reason why you need to test your tap water daily to know its parameters (especially pH) every day, which appears are fluctuating daily.  Besides possibly explaining the large differences in pH from day to day, or at least from week to week, it could be a source of ammonia especially if they use a large concentration of chloramine.  Chloramine concentrations are often higher in the Winter anyhow, not necessarily because water companies add more, but because colder water holds more.  You need to test for this also, in your tap water. 
       
      The two canister filters you offer for consideration are certainly priced right but they're not even near the top of the line.  Besides, the first one (the SunSun model 304B) is meant for a 150 gallon aquarium and rated at a water flow rate of 525 gallons per hour.  If your thinking that this much-larger-than-needed filter would be for efficient, this high of a flow rate would virtually blow your fish out of the water < g > in your 55 gallon tank. 
       
      Even the Penn Cascade filter you cite is meant for a much larger, 100 gallon aquarium, and has a flow rate of 265 gallons per hour -- more compatible with your 55 gallon tank than the SunSun model, although some hobbyist would say it's somewhat excessive depending on the size of your fish.  This flow rate is built into other filters recommended for tank capacities up to 70 gallons.  A better value in the long run -- and perhaps you can find a sale on it soon -- is a Fluval canister filter, which in my estimation is top of the line.  Their Model 306 is designed for aquaria up to 70 gallons, with a flow rate of 303 gallons per hour.  While this flow rate is also somewhat higher than necessary for your 55 gallon aquarium, their Model 305 (also designed for tanks up to 70 gallons) has a more moderate flow rate of 260 gallons per hour -- still slightly high for a 55 gallon tank but still doable, especially if having mostly larger fish.  What I like about the Fluval filters besides their superb design is their large capacity for filter media. Their Models 206 and 306 have three media baskets as opposed to Penn-Plax's two such containers.  
       
       Yes, Fluval offers a Model 206, which is designed for tanks up to 40 gallons, but which has a good flow rate of 206 gallons per hour.  This flow rate is quite adequate for a 55 gallon tank and should be well suitable for your application.  In comparison, Marineland's Model C-220, meant for a 55 gallon tank, has a flow rate of 220 gallons per hour, whereas the Eheim Model 2213-37 canister filter recommended by them for up to a 65 gallon tank has a flow rate of 116 gallons per hour and the Penn-Plax Cascade 700, recommended by them for tanks up to 65 gallons has a flow rate of 185 gallons per hour.  The Fluval 206 would seem the way to go, with a good, but not too strong, flow rate and media capacity.  I've offered other options only to give you more choices, but I believe this Model 206 would be about the best choice.
       
      As far as second in design to the Fluval filters, Eheim rates far up there but still can't hold a candle to Fluval's over all superiority.  Amazon appears to have the Fluval Model 206 on sale now @ $113.15.  As for having a built in UV sterilizer, the SunSun models are the only canister filters I'm aware of that contain a built-in UV sterilizer, including their large Model HW-304B which you gave a link to, but only this manufacturers' larger filters have this feature.  The slightly smaller SunSun Model 302B, designed for the much larger (than your 55) 75 gallon tank -- and having three filter chambers -- doesn't even have a UV sterilizer, and this filter has a too-large-of-a-flow rate for your smaller fish to be comfortable, of 264 gallons per hour .          
       
      UV sterilization in canister filters is mainly designed for the marine application.  I'm not sure why you'd want a UV sterilizer except for it sounding like it might be an advantage, but not only are UV sterilizers not designed (not intended) for freshwater aquaria, but after some time they will greatly lower your fishes' immune system's tolerance to pathogens since these fish will no longer be exposed to them.  When adding any new fish at a later date, which normally could carry any types of pathogens with them, your present fish will be extremely susceptible to contracting any disease brought in.  While UV sterilizers are commonly used in the Koi and Goldfish ponds, they're used primarily to control suspended algae.  They can be used for the same purpose in the aquarium, but at this risk. 
       
      Ray    
       
       
       
      In a message dated 12/21/2014 9:48:34 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Yes still using the poly in the hang on filter. I change it every 4-5 days. When I take it out it has some gray matter on it but not excessive.

      I have a problem with some of the test kit colors. In comparing them it's hard to tell where they fall sometimes though so I ask hubby to give it a look too. As for the ammonia testing, I've ordered a Seachem Ammonia test that should be here in the next day or so.

      You asked about well water. We're on city water but they tell us that they soften it. I can't tell it though dance I have hard water spots everywhere and they never come off.

      I've been looking at several canister filters. Maybe you could take a look and off advice or suggestions on what I need to look for.

      These are ones I've looked at so far: 




      After reading reviews I'd like the cascade but I'd like yo the uv sterilizer. Can you recommend others to look at?



      Sent from my iPad

      On Dec 21, 2014, at 2:33 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Addressing the notations as I see them, whenever trying to net a fish, always use two nets -- one which you hold steady and one to chase the fish into this stationary net.  Chasing a fish all around the tank with only one net only serves to stress them out, often without really capturing them. 
       
      Looks like your bioload is now light enough to not cause problems in cycling.
       
      Getting right to your ammonia level of 8.0 ppm,  remaining as such even after two recent PWC's, as I believe I stated before, API's ammonia test kit only reads as high as 8.0 ppm.  When you tested for it on Friday, it could have been at 10 ppm, 12 ppm or higher.  Actually, even with disregarding a possibly higher ammonia level for a moment, a 25% PWC with having an 8.0 ppm level of ammonia could only be expected to bring it down to 6.0 ppm.  The follow-up 50% PWC should have then brought in down to 3.0 ppm, but as it hasn't, unless the test was done improperly, this indicates that your 8.0 ppm ammonia may have been higher that it registered.  For all intents and purposed, at this time while fighting the increase in ammonia, no less than 50% PWC's should be done at any time.  Is the Polyfilter turning color, and are you changing this out periodically to ensure you have active Polyfilter working? 
       
      With the lightened bioload, it's extremely unusual for the pH to have dropped that much (from pH 7.6 down to pH 6.6 with your low pH test kit), during the week and from 12/19 to 12/20.
       
      While on the topic of PWC's, while it's not essential, a 25% PWC would only require adding back 1/2 TBS of Kosher salt.  Only a 50% PWC requires a full TBS of Kosher salt being replaced.  No harm done as it's still very slight, but directions should always be followed as close as possible. 
       
      Now, back to more important issues, I'm wondering if you're reading the pH colors correctly.  When the pH is near neutral (pH 7.0), it can be harder to distinguish between the subtle shades of green and blue.  I trust you're using a piece of white cardboard to better see the colors.  That you're starting to finally get a nitrite reading is encouraging.  While you want to feed these particular nitrobacters, and while you don't want to deplete their food by removing too much of it via PWC's, the 8 ppm ammonia is more than enough of a food source for them.  You do need to get a better PWCing system other than just buckets at this time, as going forward from here you'll need to do more and larger PWC's.  I still have to wonder if you changed ammonia test kit brands or water conditioner brands to prevent possible false readings.
       
      As the 50% PWC did nothing to reduce the ammonia level, nor to raise the pH, you'll have to do a 75% PWC when you can, if you're sure of these test results and if you're changing out the Polyfilter (and still getting these high ammonia readings).  Polyfilter has a finite capacity for impurities and needs to be changed to keep it most effective.  With a 75% PWC, you'll need to add 1 1/2 TBS of Kosher salt back into the tank.  Check your tap water's pH to make sure it hasn't dropped into the acid range.  Not only will you need to reduce the ammonia level to 4.0 ppm, but you need to raise the pH back up into the alkaline range where it was previously -- if your tap water still reads pH 7.4 -- 7.6 and still has the capacity to increase your pH.
       
      Yes, this can be turned around; that you have the start of a nitrite level, the cycle is well into its beginning.  It just may take more work (more & larger PWC's) to keep things stabilized throughout it.  You can consider the 25% PWC as doing practically nothing in addressing the ammonia level even while the pH drop makes little sense at the moment. 
       
      Getting directly to the debris previously in/on your substrate, I fully expected you had no baseline to firm any comparison between very little and excessive, and so I saw no purpose in asking you if it appeared to be too much.  As the debris which you vacuumed though appeared excessive at that time, a remark of such then would have prompted me to suggest continuing cleaning all the gravel -- but then, this was never really gone into much further.  As I recommended above, this would now be the time to finish the vacuuming and no later; this should help matters although a quick turn around can't be expected.
       
      While your kh/gh kit would not be useful in cycling your tank, these parameters are always good to know.  Your posted readings of these tests are helpful in knowing that your GH is only moderately hard while you KH (temporary/carbonate hardness) is not high at all.  Actually, your KH of only 3 o (degrees) shows that its buffering capacity is quite low and that the pH can drop more easily than if this parameter were high.  Still, for the pH to drop as it did needs to have some opposing agent (i.e., an acid) counteracting the effects of the normally higher pH.  Unless your tap water now tests out as being slightly acid, the pH should rise with temporarily more and larger PWC's.  A question while on this topic; do you have well water?  As for a canister filter, you can't go wrong with one.  As far as starting over, there's really no sense in doing that now, when you have the beginnings of cycle, and as you have fish.  By now I'm sure you see it's much harder to cycle a tank having fish in it as you can't let the parameters of the nitrogen cycle become excessive.  With the nitrite now beginning to rise, this is all the more reason why you'll need to keep on top of PWCing to keep this parameter down -- especially if the pH tends to remain on the acid side).  Doing a fishless cycle requires very little (if any) PWCing, except at the very end to remove the excess nitrate.    
       

      Ray
                  
       
      In a message dated 12/21/2014 12:58:51 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Last night I was totally dead and wanting to provide more info but could not hold my head up any longer. Still trying to kick my cold which is now all upper respiratory and driving me nuts! 

      Before I forget, I've rehomed all but 3 angelfish, 3 panda Cory cats and 5 neon tetras. I tried to rehome the tetras but I couldn't catch to save my life. The Gourami's and the cats gave me a serious run for my money. 

      On 12/19 (Friday morning) my numbers were ph 6.6, hph, 7.4, ammon 8, nitrites 0 nitrates 20

      I changed 25% of the water and cleaned gravel, on top and underneath. 
      I added the 1 TBSP dissolved kosher salt when complete. 
      The numbers that night were ph 7.6, hph 7.8, ammon 8, nitrites 0, nitrates 20

      12/20 my numbers were ph 6.6, hph 7.4, Ammon 8, nitrites 0, nitrates 20
      I changed 50% of water and vacuumed all the gravel then rinsed all the filters. After complete I added 1 TBSP dissolved kosher salt, figuring I had gotten rid of what I'd it in the day before. 

      My numbers today were ph 6.8, hph 7.4, Ammon 8, nitrites .25, nitrates 20

      I also recd my kh/gh kit. I don't know how to read it yet (working on it tho) so I'll tell you how many drops of solution it took to change each.  GH 10 drops from Orange to green, KH 3 drops to yellow. Now on the kh directions it said the water should turn from blue to yellow but mine was never blue. I put a drop in and it didn't turn blue but wasn't yellow. It took 3 drops to get to yellow but before that it was just various shakes of cloudy/murky.... 
       The tap numbers here are gh 7 drops. Kh 5 drops. 

      You asked about debris I noticed in tank. Being newer I don't have a baseline to determine excessive etc but to me, the debris I've vacuumed is excessive. It's just gross to me. 

      I have ordered a Marina aquavac hoping it'll help me get to the crap deep under the gravel that I'm missing. 
      I'm to the point of wanting to empty the tank, clean it out, clean the rocks, plants etc... Change the filters and basically start over. 
      I wonder if I should chuck the under gravel filter? I've started seriously looking at canister filters and if I empty and start over I want to do it with canister filters and the penguin 350 only. ( no under gravel or hanging filter)

      Maybe I'm being excessive but it feels like I'm not making any progress.  Can this be turned around without going back to the beginning? 

      Sent from my iPhone

      On Dec 21, 2014, at 11:04 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:



      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56314 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 12/23/2014
      Subject: UV Clarifiers vs UV Sterilizers
      Hi Ray,

        Something you mentioned to peg a couple of days ago got me thinking-you said that there is no need to use a UV sterilizer in a tank because it weakens the fish. I've always had one running & over the years my fish have been very sickly with one thing or another & never really had the strong constitution that pond Comets should have which always surprised me as I keep them in 100 gallons with plenty of water changes. I wonder if I'm draining the  very life out of them by using this?

      The ponds I look after have clarifiers that take care of the blankeet weed algae problem & they are always black inside when I clean them. Conversely my sterilizer is always white inside when I clean it-dead bacteria.

          John<o)))<
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56315 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 12/23/2014
      Subject: Re: Still chuggin' a long
      A couple of questions so far but not on actual Fluval set-up.

       Right now I have that under gravel filter running and I'm wondering if I should take it out?

      Also, I've got a good 2.5" substrate. Should I consider removing some?  Reason I ask... I read online that pre bio-wheel days the substrate trapped the necessary stuff to get the tanks cycle going but with the bio-wheel that's no longer necessary. It seems that with less substrate it would be easier to do housekeeping. 

      Even with my water changes the ammonia level has been 4 and above for quite awhile.  What would be the best way to go forward? Drain, clean then hook up the Fluval or partial change, clean then hook up etc.... And in all this the consideration about under gravel filter and substrate reduction. 

      Ultimately I want to provide a nice home for a community of fish and I'm willing to do what I need to do to get there. 

      Thank you again for alllllllll your help. I could never afford to bring someone in to do this commercially so I am so grateful you are here to help and I appreciate your advice!!



      Sent from my iPad

      On Dec 23, 2014, at 12:26 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      If there's anything you don't understand about the instructions just ask here and I'm sure someone can help you -- or ask on the other group, as I believe Donna bought a Fluval a short time back after I sent her an Eheim that she wasn't completely happy with.  I know she could help you.
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 12/23/2014 12:19:06 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Thanks! Looking forward to getting it set up but a little intimidated by the book of instructions

      Sent from my iPhone

      On Dec 23, 2014, at 7:15 AM, SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Hi Peg,

        It's a very good make-you will be fine! I've used Fluval internal filters in smaller tanks in the past & they never let me down, I still have those filters & occasionally use them either in hospital tanks or lend them out & they still perform like the day I bought them.

       John<o)))<

      On 23 December 2014 at 02:33, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      Good choice; I'm sure you're going to like it.  Everyone I know who has this brand appreciates them very much.  You can't go wrong and this size is ideal for your needs.
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 12/22/2014 9:30:00 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      I ended up buying the Fluval 206. Just starting to look set paperwork. I'm sure it'll be a bear!!

      Sent from my iPad

      On Dec 22, 2014, at 12:58 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Yes, some hobbyists have a problem distinguishing the test result colors.  Not only might the Seachem ammonia kit show stronger colors but it will eliminate any possible false readings due to using Prime at this same time.
       
      On your softened city water, this is all the more reason why you need to test your tap water daily to know its parameters (especially pH) every day, which appears are fluctuating daily. Â Besides possibly explaining the large differences in pH from day to day, or at least from week to week, it could be a source of ammonia especially if they use a large concentration of chloramine.  Chloramine concentrations are often higher in the Winter anyhow, not necessarily because water companies add more, but because colder water holds more.  You need to test for this also, in your tap water. 
       
      The two canister filters you offer for consideration are certainly priced right but they're not even near the top of the line. Â Besides, the first one (the SunSun model 304B) is meant for a 150 gallon aquarium and rated at a water flow rate of 525 gallons per hour.  If your thinking that this much-larger-than-needed filter would be for efficient, this high of a flow rate would virtually blow your fish out of the water < g > in your 55 gallon tank. 
       
      Even the Penn Cascade filter you cite is meant for a much larger, 100 gallon aquarium, and has a flow rate of 265 gallons per hour -- more compatible with your 55 gallon tank than the SunSun model, although some hobbyist would say it's somewhat excessive depending on the size of your fish.  This flow rate is built into other filters recommended for tank capacities up to 70 gallons.  A better value in the long run -- and perhaps you can find a sale on it soon -- is a Fluval canister filter, which in my estimation is top of the line.  Their Model 306 is designed for aquaria up to 70 gallons, with a flow rate of 303 gallons per hour.  While this flow rate is also somewhat higher than necessary for your 55 gallon aquarium, their Model 305 (also designed for tanks up to 70 gallons) has a more moderate flow rate of 260 gallons per hour -- still slightly high for a 55 gallon tank but still doable, especially if having mostly larger fish.  What I like about the Fluval filters besides their superb design is their large capacity for filter media. Their Models 206 and 306 have three media baskets as opposed to Penn-Plax's two such containers. Â 
       
       Yes, Fluval offers a Model 206, which is designed for tanks up to 40 gallons, but which has a good flow rate of 206 gallons per hour.  This flow rate is quite adequate for a 55 gallon tank and should be well suitable for your application. Â In comparison, Marineland's Model C-220, meant for a 55 gallon tank, has a flow rate of 220 gallons per hour, whereas the Eheim Model 2213-37 canister filter recommended by them for up to a 65 gallon tank has a flow rate of 116 gallons per hour and the Penn-Plax Cascade 700, recommended by them for tanks up to 65 gallons has a flow rate of 185 gallons per hour.  The Fluval 206 would seem the way to go, with a good, but not too strong, flow rate and media capacity.  I've offered other options only to give you more choices, but I believe this Model 206 would be about the best choice.
       
      As far as second in design to the Fluval filters, Eheim rates far up there but still can't hold a candle to Fluval's over all superiority.  Amazon appears to have the Fluval Model 206 on sale now @ $113.15.  As for having a built in UV sterilizer, the SunSun models are the only canister filters I'm aware of that contain a built-in UV sterilizer, including their large Model HW-304B which you gave a link to, but only this manufacturers' larger filters have this feature.  The slightly smaller SunSun Model 302B, designed for the much larger (than your 55) 75 gallon tank -- and having three filter chambers -- doesn't even have a UV sterilizer, and this filter has a too-large-of-a-flow rate for your smaller fish to be comfortable, of 264 gallons per hour . Â Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ 
       
      UV sterilization in canister filters is mainly designed for the marine application.  I'm not sure why you'd want a UV sterilizer except for it sounding like it might be an advantage, but not only are UV sterilizers not designed (not intended) for freshwater aquaria, but after some time they will greatly lower your fishes' immune system's tolerance to pathogens since these fish will no longer be exposed to them.  When adding any new fish at a later date, which normally could carry any types of pathogens with them, your present fish will be extremely susceptible to contracting any disease brought in.  While UV sterilizers are commonly used in the Koi and Goldfish ponds, they're used primarily to control suspended algae.  They can be used for the same purpose in the aquarium, but at this risk. 
       
      Ray Â Ã‚ Ã‚ 
       
       
       
      In a message dated 12/21/2014 9:48:34 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Yes still using the poly in the hang on filter. I change it every 4-5 days. When I take it out it has some gray matter on it but not excessive.

      I have a problem with some of the test kit colors. In comparing them it's hard to tell where they fall sometimes though so I ask hubby to give it a look too. As for the ammonia testing, I've ordered a Seachem Ammonia test that should be here in the next day or so.

      You asked about well water. We're on city water but they tell us that they soften it. I can't tell it though dance I have hard water spots everywhere and they never come off.

      I've been looking at several canister filters. Maybe you could take a look and off advice or suggestions on what I need to look for.

      These are ones I've looked at so far: 




      After reading reviews I'd like the cascade but I'd like yo the uv sterilizer. Can you recommend others to look at?



      Sent from my iPad

      On Dec 21, 2014, at 2:33 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Addressing the notations as I see them, whenever trying to net a fish, always use two nets -- one which you hold steady and one to chase the fish into this stationary net.  Chasing a fish all around the tank with only one net only serves to stress them out, often without really capturing them. 
       
      Looks like your bioload is now light enough to not cause problems in cycling.
       
      Getting right to your ammonia level of 8.0 ppm,  remaining as such even after two recent PWC's, as I believe I stated before, API's ammonia test kit only reads as high as 8.0 ppm.  When you tested for it on Friday, it could have been at 10 ppm, 12 ppm or higher.  Actually, even with disregarding a possibly higher ammonia level for a moment, a 25% PWC with having an 8.0 ppm level of ammonia could only be expected to bring it down to 6.0 ppm. Â The follow-up 50% PWC should have then brought in down to 3.0 ppm, but as it hasn't, unless the test was done improperly, this indicates that your 8.0 ppm ammonia may have been higher that it registered.  For all intents and purposed, at this time while fighting the increase in ammonia, no less than 50% PWC's should be done at any time.  Is the Polyfilter turning color, and are you changing this out periodically to ensure you have active Polyfilter working? 
       
      With the lightened bioload, it's extremely unusual for the pH to have dropped that much (from pH 7.6 down to pH 6.6 with your low pH test kit), during the week and from 12/19 to 12/20.
       
      While on the topic of PWC's, while it's not essential, a 25% PWC would only require adding back 1/2 TBS of Kosher salt.  Only a 50% PWC requires a full TBS of Kosher salt being replaced.  No harm done as it's still very slight, but directions should always be followed as close as possible. 
       
      Now, back to more important issues, I'm wondering if you're reading the pH colors correctly.  When the pH is near neutral (pH 7.0), it can be harder to distinguish between the subtle shades of green and blue.  I trust you're using a piece of white cardboard to better see the colors.  That you're starting to finally get a nitrite reading is encouraging.  While you want to feed these particular nitrobacters, and while you don't want to deplete their food by removing too much of it via PWC's, the 8 ppm ammonia is more than enough of a food source for them.  You do need to get a better PWCing system other than just buckets at this time, as going forward from here you'll need to do more and larger PWC's.  I still have to wonder if you changed ammonia test kit brands or water conditioner brands to prevent possible false readings.
       
      As the 50% PWC did nothing to reduce the ammonia level, nor to raise the pH, you'll have to do a 75% PWC when you can, if you're sure of these test results and if you're changing out the Polyfilter (and still getting these high ammonia readings).  Polyfilter has a finite capacity for impurities and needs to be changed to keep it most effective.  With a 75% PWC, you'll need to add 1 1/2 TBS of Kosher salt back into the tank.  Check your tap water's pH to make sure it hasn't dropped into the acid range.  Not only will you need to reduce the ammonia level to 4.0 ppm, but you need to raise the pH back up into the alkaline range where it was previously -- if your tap water still reads pH 7.4 -- 7.6 and still has the capacity to increase your pH.
       
      Yes, this can be turned around; that you have the start of a nitrite level, the cycle is well into its beginning.  It just may take more work (more & larger PWC's) to keep things stabilized throughout it.  You can consider the 25% PWC as doing practically nothing in addressing the ammonia level even while the pH drop makes little sense at the moment. 
       
      Getting directly to the debris previously in/on your substrate, I fully expected you had no baseline to firm any comparison between very little and excessive, and so I saw no purpose in asking you if it appeared to be too much.  As the debris which you vacuumed though appeared excessive at that time, a remark of such then would have prompted me to suggest continuing cleaning all the gravel -- but then, this was never really gone into much further.  As I recommended above, this would now be the time to finish the vacuuming and no later; this should help matters although a quick turn around can't be expected.
       
      While your kh/gh kit would not be useful in cycling your tank, these parameters are always good to know.  Your posted readings of these tests are helpful in knowing that your GH is only moderately hard while you KH (temporary/carbonate hardness) is not high at all.  Actually, your KH of only 3 o (degrees) shows that its buffering capacity is quite low and that the pH can drop more easily than if this parameter were high.  Still, for the pH to drop as it did needs to have some opposing agent (i.e., an acid) counteracting the effects of the normally higher pH.  Unless your tap water now tests out as being slightly acid, the pH should rise with temporarily more and larger PWC's.  A question while on this topic; do you have well water?  As for a canister filter, you can't go wrong with one.  As far as starting over, there's really no sense in doing that now, when you have the beginnings of cycle, and as you have fish.  By now I'm sure you see it's much harder to cycle a tank having fish in it as you can't let the parameters of the nitrogen cycle become excessive.  With the nitrite now beginning to rise, this is all the more reason why you'll need to keep on top of PWCing to keep this parameter down -- especially if the pH tends to remain on the acid side).  Doing a fishless cycle requires very little (if any) PWCing, except at the very end to remove the excess nitrate.   Â 
       

      Ray
       Â Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ 
       
      In a message dated 12/21/2014 12:58:51 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Last night I was totally dead and wanting to provide more info but could not hold my head up any longer. Still trying to kick my cold which is now all upper respiratory and driving me nuts! 

      Before I forget, I've rehomed all but 3 angelfish, 3 panda Cory cats and 5 neon tetras. I tried to rehome the tetras but I couldn't catch to save my life. The Gourami's and the cats gave me a serious run for my money. 

      On 12/19 (Friday morning) my numbers were ph 6.6, hph, 7.4, ammon 8, nitrites 0 nitrates 20

      I changed 25% of the water and cleaned gravel, on top and underneath. 
      I added the 1 TBSP dissolved kosher salt when complete. 
      The numbers that night were ph 7.6, hph 7.8, ammon 8, nitrites 0, nitrates 20

      12/20 my numbers were ph 6.6, hph 7.4, Ammon 8, nitrites 0, nitrates 20
      I changed 50% of water and vacuumed all the gravel then rinsed all the filters. After complete I added 1 TBSP dissolved kosher salt, figuring I had gotten rid of what I'd it in the day before. 

      My numbers today were ph 6.8, hph 7.4, Ammon 8, nitrites .25, nitrates 20

      I also recd my kh/gh kit. I don't know how to read it yet (working on it tho) so I'll tell you how many drops of solution it took to change each.  GH 10 drops from Orange to green, KH 3 drops to yellow. Now on the kh directions it said the water should turn from blue to yellow but mine was never blue. I put a drop in and it didn't turn blue but wasn't yellow. It took 3 drops to get to yellow but before that it was just various shakes of cloudy/murky.... 
       The tap numbers here are gh 7 drops. Kh 5 drops. 

      You asked about debris I noticed in tank. Being newer I don't have a baseline to determine excessive etc but to me, the debris I've vacuumed is excessive. It's just gross to me. 

      I have ordered a Marina aquavac hoping it'll help me get to the crap deep under the gravel that I'm missing. 
      I'm to the point of wanting to empty the tank, clean it out, clean the rocks, plants etc... Change the filters and basically start over. 
      I wonder if I should chuck the under gravel filter? I've started seriously looking at canister filters and if I empty and start over I want to do it with canister filters and the penguin 350 only. ( no under gravel or hanging filter)

      Maybe I'm being excessive but it feels like I'm not making any progress.  Can this be turned around without going back to the beginning? 

      Sent from my iPhone

      On Dec 21, 2014, at 11:04 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:



      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56316 From: sevenspringss Date: 12/23/2014
      Subject: Re: UV Clarifiers vs UV Sterilizers
      AOL Email
      Hi John,
       
      While a UV sterilizer won't weaken the fish (directly), it does weaken their immune system making them more prone to contracting illnesses.  While most fish have been exposed to at least some pathogens during their lifetime, even in the wild (especially in the wild), there are many other pathogens they've never encountered yet, before -- and here were talking about tank raised fish.  Normally, if any certain pathogen is present in their wild environment, it's in extremely low populations unless the majority of the fish have the disease or unless their environment is more confined.  Pathogens in low populations are much easier to fight off, even if a fish hasn't yet been exposed to it; this fish will build up an immunity to this disease at this time, as it's fighting it off.  The normal environment I'm referring to is in nature while the more confining environment is the aquarium, regardless of how large it may be.
       
      There are some pathogens which the fishes' immune system creates a long lasting immunity to (like we do against the Chicken Pox or Measles virus) and other pathogens which these fishes just do not create any long-term immunity to (like the over 200 different cold viruses we have the chance to come in contact with -- and which we develop only temporary immunities to).  Fortunately (in a way) for us, we're constantly exposed to many different cold viruses which helps keep up our immune system especially if we've had those particular cold viruses recently.  In time, many different immunities wear off, but it's only the repeated exposure to them that peaks our immune system against those pathogens we're more frequently exposed to.
       
      Fish that are denied exposure to pathogens will slowly loose their immunity to them over time and have a much greater problem confronting them when they are exposed to them at a much later date.  Add to that, the possibility that a pathogen population will be larger in comparison to the fishes' environment if that environment is confining (as in the aquarium), as opposed to being in the wild.  Then, add to that the introduction of a new fish -- which is not sick but quite healthy, but at the same time has been exposed to many more pathogens, some of which are still with this new fish as in a symbiotic relationship with this fish.  The (new) fish has a well-developed enough immune system against this pathogen not to get ill, but can never fight it off completely -- and there are such pathogens present in the aquatic environment, such as the protozoan, Hexamita to just name one.  Picture putting this new fish, even after a month or more in quarantine, in with the present fishes that were denied the opportunity to constantly build up their immune systems.  It's like a death sentence to these present fishes; they haven't been exposed to any pathogens to have the chance to build up and/or maintain an immunity to anything.
       
      One valid application for a UV sterilizer would be in the wholesale fish establishment where wild fishes (many carrying disease pathogens, but which remain healthy) are confined in stock tanks in crowded conditions.  This is short-term with the UV Unit in efforts to keep the pathogens at bay until the fishes are sold.  There are some home-hatcheries that use them, but at high risk.  Many multi-tank central filtration systems will use a UV sterilizer but it just takes one fish to get an illness to go right through all the tanks, exposes all the fish in every tank to a pathogen they never developed an immunity for.  There's such a thing as being "too clean."
       
      Ray
       
       
       
      In a message dated 12/23/2014 3:52:54 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hi Ray,

        Something you mentioned to peg a couple of days ago got me thinking-you said that there is no need to use a UV sterilizer in a tank because it weakens the fish. I've always had one running & over the years my fish have been very sickly with one thing or another & never really had the strong constitution that pond Comets should have which always surprised me as I keep them in 100 gallons with plenty of water changes. I wonder if I'm draining the  very life out of them by using this?

      The ponds I look after have clarifiers that take care of the blankeet weed algae problem & they are always black inside when I clean them. Conversely my sterilizer is always white inside when I clean it-dead bacteria.

          John<o)))<

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56317 From: sevenspringss Date: 12/23/2014
      Subject: Re: Still chuggin' a long
      AOL Email
       
       
      In a message dated 12/23/2014 3:54:27 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      A couple of questions so far but not on actual Fluval set-up.

       Right now I have that under gravel filter running and I'm wondering if I should take it out?

      Also, I've got a good 2.5" substrate. Should I consider removing some?  Reason I ask... I read online that pre bio-wheel days the substrate trapped the necessary stuff to get the tanks cycle going but with the bio-wheel that's no longer necessary. It seems that with less substrate it would be easier to do housekeeping. 

      Even with my water changes the ammonia level has been 4 and above for quite awhile.  What would be the best way to go forward? Drain, clean then hook up the Fluval or partial change, clean then hook up etc.... And in all this the consideration about under gravel filter and substrate reduction. 

      Ultimately I want to provide a nice home for a community of fish and I'm willing to do what I need to do to get there. 

      Thank you again for alllllllll your help. I could never afford to bring someone in to do this commercially so I am so grateful you are here to help and I appreciate your advice!!



      Sent from my iPad

      On Dec 23, 2014, at 12:26 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      If there's anything you don't understand about the instructions just ask here and I'm sure someone can help you -- or ask on the other group, as I believe Donna bought a Fluval a short time back after I sent her an Eheim that she wasn't completely happy with.  I know she could help you.
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 12/23/2014 12:19:06 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Thanks! Looking forward to getting it set up but a little intimidated by the book of instructions

      Sent from my iPhone

      On Dec 23, 2014, at 7:15 AM, SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Hi Peg,

        It's a very good make-you will be fine! I've used Fluval internal filters in smaller tanks in the past & they never let me down, I still have those filters & occasionally use them either in hospital tanks or lend them out & they still perform like the day I bought them.

       John<o)))<

      On 23 December 2014 at 02:33, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      Good choice; I'm sure you're going to like it.  Everyone I know who has this brand appreciates them very much.  You can't go wrong and this size is ideal for your needs.
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 12/22/2014 9:30:00 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      I ended up buying the Fluval 206. Just starting to look set paperwork. I'm sure it'll be a bear!!

      Sent from my iPad

      On Dec 22, 2014, at 12:58 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Yes, some hobbyists have a problem distinguishing the test result colors.  Not only might the Seachem ammonia kit show stronger colors but it will eliminate any possible false readings due to using Prime at this same time.
       
      On your softened city water, this is all the more reason why you need to test your tap water daily to know its parameters (especially pH) every day, which appears are fluctuating daily. Â Besides possibly explaining the large differences in pH from day to day, or at least from week to week, it could be a source of ammonia especially if they use a large concentration of chloramine.  Chloramine concentrations are often higher in the Winter anyhow, not necessarily because water companies add more, but because colder water holds more.  You need to test for this also, in your tap water. 
       
      The two canister filters you offer for consideration are certainly priced right but they're not even near the top of the line. Â Besides, the first one (the SunSun model 304B) is meant for a 150 gallon aquarium and rated at a water flow rate of 525 gallons per hour.  If your thinking that this much-larger-than-needed filter would be for efficient, this high of a flow rate would virtually blow your fish out of the water < g > in your 55 gallon tank. 
       
      Even the Penn Cascade filter you cite is meant for a much larger, 100 gallon aquarium, and has a flow rate of 265 gallons per hour -- more compatible with your 55 gallon tank than the SunSun model, although some hobbyist would say it's somewhat excessive depending on the size of your fish.  This flow rate is built into other filters recommended for tank capacities up to 70 gallons.  A better value in the long run -- and perhaps you can find a sale on it soon -- is a Fluval canister filter, which in my estimation is top of the line.  Their Model 306 is designed for aquaria up to 70 gallons, with a flow rate of 303 gallons per hour.  While this flow rate is also somewhat higher than necessary for your 55 gallon aquarium, their Model 305 (also designed for tanks up to 70 gallons) has a more moderate flow rate of 260 gallons per hour -- still slightly high for a 55 gallon tank but still doable, especially if having mostly larger fish.  What I like about the Fluval filters besides their superb design is their large capacity for filter media. Their Models 206 and 306 have three media baskets as opposed to Penn-Plax's two such containers. Â 
       
       Yes, Fluval offers a Model 206, which is designed for tanks up to 40 gallons, but which has a good flow rate of 206 gallons per hour.  This flow rate is quite adequate for a 55 gallon tank and should be well suitable for your application. Â In comparison, Marineland's Model C-220, meant for a 55 gallon tank, has a flow rate of 220 gallons per hour, whereas the Eheim Model 2213-37 canister filter recommended by them for up to a 65 gallon tank has a flow rate of 116 gallons per hour and the Penn-Plax Cascade 700, recommended by them for tanks up to 65 gallons has a flow rate of 185 gallons per hour.  The Fluval 206 would seem the way to go, with a good, but not too strong, flow rate and media capacity.  I've offered other options only to give you more choices, but I believe this Model 206 would be about the best choice.
       
      As far as second in design to the Fluval filters, Eheim rates far up there but still can't hold a candle to Fluval's over all superiority.  Amazon appears to have the Fluval Model 206 on sale now @ $113.15.  As for having a built in UV sterilizer, the SunSun models are the only canister filters I'm aware of that contain a built-in UV sterilizer, including their large Model HW-304B which you gave a link to, but only this manufacturers' larger filters have this feature.  The slightly smaller SunSun Model 302B, designed for the much larger (than your 55) 75 gallon tank -- and having three filter chambers -- doesn't even have a UV sterilizer, and this filter has a too-large-of-a-flow rate for your smaller fish to be comfortable, of 264 gallons per hour . Â Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ 
       
      UV sterilization in canister filters is mainly designed for the marine application.  I'm not sure why you'd want a UV sterilizer except for it sounding like it might be an advantage, but not only are UV sterilizers not designed (not intended) for freshwater aquaria, but after some time they will greatly lower your fishes' immune system's tolerance to pathogens since these fish will no longer be exposed to them.  When adding any new fish at a later date, which normally could carry any types of pathogens with them, your present fish will be extremely susceptible to contracting any disease brought in.  While UV sterilizers are commonly used in the Koi and Goldfish ponds, they're used primarily to control suspended algae.  They can be used for the same purpose in the aquarium, but at this risk. 
       
      Ray Â Ã‚ Ã‚ 
       
       
       
      In a message dated 12/21/2014 9:48:34 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Yes still using the poly in the hang on filter. I change it every 4-5 days. When I take it out it has some gray matter on it but not excessive.

      I have a problem with some of the test kit colors. In comparing them it's hard to tell where they fall sometimes though so I ask hubby to give it a look too. As for the ammonia testing, I've ordered a Seachem Ammonia test that should be here in the next day or so.

      You asked about well water. We're on city water but they tell us that they soften it. I can't tell it though dance I have hard water spots everywhere and they never come off.

      I've been looking at several canister filters. Maybe you could take a look and off advice or suggestions on what I need to look for.

      These are ones I've looked at so far: 




      After reading reviews I'd like the cascade but I'd like yo the uv sterilizer. Can you recommend others to look at?



      Sent from my iPad

      On Dec 21, 2014, at 2:33 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Addressing the notations as I see them, whenever trying to net a fish, always use two nets -- one which you hold steady and one to chase the fish into this stationary net.  Chasing a fish all around the tank with only one net only serves to stress them out, often without really capturing them. 
       
      Looks like your bioload is now light enough to not cause problems in cycling.
       
      Getting right to your ammonia level of 8.0 ppm,  remaining as such even after two recent PWC's, as I believe I stated before, API's ammonia test kit only reads as high as 8.0 ppm.  When you tested for it on Friday, it could have been at 10 ppm, 12 ppm or higher.  Actually, even with disregarding a possibly higher ammonia level for a moment, a 25% PWC with having an 8.0 ppm level of ammonia could only be expected to bring it down to 6.0 ppm. Â The follow-up 50% PWC should have then brought in down to 3.0 ppm, but as it hasn't, unless the test was done improperly, this indicates that your 8.0 ppm ammonia may have been higher that it registered.  For all intents and purposed, at this time while fighting the increase in ammonia, no less than 50% PWC's should be done at any time.  Is the Polyfilter turning color, and are you changing this out periodically to ensure you have active Polyfilter working? 
       
      With the lightened bioload, it's extremely unusual for the pH to have dropped that much (from pH 7.6 down to pH 6.6 with your low pH test kit), during the week and from 12/19 to 12/20.
       
      While on the topic of PWC's, while it's not essential, a 25% PWC would only require adding back 1/2 TBS of Kosher salt.  Only a 50% PWC requires a full TBS of Kosher salt being replaced.  No harm done as it's still very slight, but directions should always be followed as close as possible. 
       
      Now, back to more important issues, I'm wondering if you're reading the pH colors correctly.  When the pH is near neutral (pH 7.0), it can be harder to distinguish between the subtle shades of green and blue.  I trust you're using a piece of white cardboard to better see the colors.  That you're starting to finally get a nitrite reading is encouraging.  While you want to feed these particular nitrobacters, and while you don't want to deplete their food by removing too much of it via PWC's, the 8 ppm ammonia is more than enough of a food source for them.  You do need to get a better PWCing system other than just buckets at this time, as going forward from here you'll need to do more and larger PWC's.  I still have to wonder if you changed ammonia test kit brands or water conditioner brands to prevent possible false readings.
       
      As the 50% PWC did nothing to reduce the ammonia level, nor to raise the pH, you'll have to do a 75% PWC when you can, if you're sure of these test results and if you're changing out the Polyfilter (and still getting these high ammonia readings).  Polyfilter has a finite capacity for impurities and needs to be changed to keep it most effective.  With a 75% PWC, you'll need to add 1 1/2 TBS of Kosher salt back into the tank.  Check your tap water's pH to make sure it hasn't dropped into the acid range.  Not only will you need to reduce the ammonia level to 4.0 ppm, but you need to raise the pH back up into the alkaline range where it was previously -- if your tap water still reads pH 7.4 -- 7.6 and still has the capacity to increase your pH.
       
      Yes, this can be turned around; that you have the start of a nitrite level, the cycle is well into its beginning.  It just may take more work (more & larger PWC's) to keep things stabilized throughout it.  You can consider the 25% PWC as doing practically nothing in addressing the ammonia level even while the pH drop makes little sense at the moment. 
       
      Getting directly to the debris previously in/on your substrate, I fully expected you had no baseline to firm any comparison between very little and excessive, and so I saw no purpose in asking you if it appeared to be too much.  As the debris which you vacuumed though appeared excessive at that time, a remark of such then would have prompted me to suggest continuing cleaning all the gravel -- but then, this was never really gone into much further.  As I recommended above, this would now be the time to finish the vacuuming and no later; this should help matters although a quick turn around can't be expected.
       
      While your kh/gh kit would not be useful in cycling your tank, these parameters are always good to know.  Your posted readings of these tests are helpful in knowing that your GH is only moderately hard while you KH (temporary/carbonate hardness) is not high at all.  Actually, your KH of only 3 o (degrees) shows that its buffering capacity is quite low and that the pH can drop more easily than if this parameter were high.  Still, for the pH to drop as it did needs to have some opposing agent (i.e., an acid) counteracting the effects of the normally higher pH.  Unless your tap water now tests out as being slightly acid, the pH should rise with temporarily more and larger PWC's.  A question while on this topic; do you have well water?  As for a canister filter, you can't go wrong with one.  As far as starting over, there's really no sense in doing that now, when you have the beginnings of cycle, and as you have fish.  By now I'm sure you see it's much harder to cycle a tank having fish in it as you can't let the parameters of the nitrogen cycle become excessive.  With the nitrite now beginning to rise, this is all the more reason why you'll need to keep on top of PWCing to keep this parameter down -- especially if the pH tends to remain on the acid side).  Doing a fishless cycle requires very little (if any) PWCing, except at the very end to remove the excess nitrate.   Â 
       

      Ray
       Â Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ 
       
      In a message dated 12/21/2014 12:58:51 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Last night I was totally dead and wanting to provide more info but could not hold my head up any longer. Still trying to kick my cold which is now all upper respiratory and driving me nuts! 

      Before I forget, I've rehomed all but 3 angelfish, 3 panda Cory cats and 5 neon tetras. I tried to rehome the tetras but I couldn't catch to save my life. The Gourami's and the cats gave me a serious run for my money. 

      On 12/19 (Friday morning) my numbers were ph 6.6, hph, 7.4, ammon 8, nitrites 0 nitrates 20

      I changed 25% of the water and cleaned gravel, on top and underneath. 
      I added the 1 TBSP dissolved kosher salt when complete. 
      The numbers that night were ph 7.6, hph 7.8, ammon 8, nitrites 0, nitrates 20

      12/20 my numbers were ph 6.6, hph 7.4, Ammon 8, nitrites 0, nitrates 20
      I changed 50% of water and vacuumed all the gravel then rinsed all the filters. After complete I added 1 TBSP dissolved kosher salt, figuring I had gotten rid of what I'd it in the day before. 

      My numbers today were ph 6.8, hph 7.4, Ammon 8, nitrites .25, nitrates 20

      I also recd my kh/gh kit. I don't know how to read it yet (working on it tho) so I'll tell you how many drops of solution it took to change each.  GH 10 drops from Orange to green, KH 3 drops to yellow. Now on the kh directions it said the water should turn from blue to yellow but mine was never blue. I put a drop in and it didn't turn blue but wasn't yellow. It took 3 drops to get to yellow but before that it was just various shakes of cloudy/murky.... 
       The tap numbers here are gh 7 drops. Kh 5 drops. 

      You asked about debris I noticed in tank. Being newer I don't have a baseline to determine excessive etc but to me, the debris I've vacuumed is excessive. It's just gross to me. 

      I have ordered a Marina aquavac hoping it'll help me get to the crap deep under the gravel that I'm missing. 
      I'm to the point of wanting to empty the tank, clean it out, clean the rocks, plants etc... Change the filters and basically start over. 
      I wonder if I should chuck the under gravel filter? I've started seriously looking at canister filters and if I empty and start over I want to do it with canister filters and the penguin 350 only. ( no under gravel or hanging filter)

      Maybe I'm being excessive but it feels like I'm not making any progress.  Can this be turned around without going back to the beginning? 

      Sent from my iPhone

      On Dec 21, 2014, at 11:04 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:



      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56318 From: sevenspringss Date: 12/23/2014
      Subject: Re: Still chuggin' a long
      AOL Email
      There are some hobbyists who prefer them and others who want no part of them.  Whatever your preference is, this should guide you.  UG filters are not a necessity but they can add to ones biological filtration, regardless of how much other filtration there is.  It can also be considered a "back-up" system of additional nitrobacters.  Just for the moment, getting back to substrate depth, while uneven heaps between valleys can cause dead spots in the UG's filtration area, ideally -- and not taking a UG filter into consideration, the substrate should slope up gradually from front to back, with the back having the highest level of gravel.  This sets the fish off better and they can't get "lost" as easily in the overall scene.  Coupling a UG filter with this, it will be understood that the deeper gravel towards the read won't have nearly (if any) the action that will occur towards the front.  You just have to contend with that if you want a more visually proper aquascape, but you can still level the whole bottom off if you're not that concerned as much with aquascaping.  As you don't use live plants, the gravel depth is not as important where its normally needed, but for those who do, the taller plants (with the longer roots) will have their needed deeper gravel where they'll have the most effect -- along the rear of the tank.
       
      If you want to retain the UG filter, you could remove a good part of this gravel and just have a depth of 3/4" at the front glass, sloping up to 1 1/2" at the rear.  This would have nothing to do with the biowheel filter though, as the UG filter is totally independent.  Not really sure what you read on line.  Pre-biowheel days, the nitrifying bacteria still became established in either the inside or in the outside (HOB) filter.  The substrate never holds large populations of nitrifying bacteria -- unless accompanied by UG filter action, drawing oxygenated water through the substrate.  As for the action of "trapping" which you mention, UG filters do have the tendency to draw debris into the gravel, and bacteria with it.  There are some hobbyist, not having a UG filter, who allow the excess build-up of mulm on their gravel, most often towards the front where the gravel is often at its lowest depth.  Some of this mulm may become trapped into the gravel, but if there's no UG filter under this gravel, the nitrifying bacteria can grow no deeper than 1/2" or less.  Undesirable anaerobic bacteria will take hold at greater depths, confirming that the hobbyist allowing this accumulation of mulm was not adequately maintaining their tank.  Accumulating debris like this was never considered the right thing to do for proper aquarium maintenance.  Yes, less substrate would make vacuuming it easier, but a good part of the housekeeping begins with proper feeding.
       
      With your ammonia level, in cycling, it needs to be approximately around 4 ppm, and as i said, it will spike higher up until 10 or so days after starting the cycle, until these bacteria are in large enough populations that they'll convert much of this ammonia into nitrite.  I see no reason to drain the tank at this state, and I'm not at all sure what you mean by "clean" this time.  Keep in mind, the UG filter is partially responsible for establishing your cycle this far, even though it's far from complete.  If you drain the tank and remove the UG Unit, this much of the bacteria will be removed from the cycling systyem and the Fluval will have none.  It will be almost like going back to scratch again.  First, you need to give some time for the Fluval to develop nitrifying bacteria before considering removing any.  The biowheel doesn't yet have a full compliment of nitrobacters.
       
      Until the cycle gets further along, you need to rely on large PWC's to keep the ammonia level at 4.0 ppm and the nitrite level low (preferably lower than 2.5 ppm).  While it's known and accepted that you have this UG filter in operation, nothing was ever said as to how it's powered.  I could assume it has powerheads, but it may just have bubble tubes.  Powerheads on the UG filter will   It cannot be assumed that the biowheel can now take over the job that the UG Unit has done up until now.  IT CAN'T at this point in time.   
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 12/23/2014 3:54:27 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      A couple of questions so far but not on actual Fluval set-up.

       Right now I have that under gravel filter running and I'm wondering if I should take it out?

      Also, I've got a good 2.5" substrate. Should I consider removing some?  Reason I ask... I read online that pre bio-wheel days the substrate trapped the necessary stuff to get the tanks cycle going but with the bio-wheel that's no longer necessary. It seems that with less substrate it would be easier to do housekeeping. 

      Even with my water changes the ammonia level has been 4 and above for quite awhile.  What would be the best way to go forward? Drain, clean then hook up the Fluval or partial change, clean then hook up etc.... And in all this the consideration about under gravel filter and substrate reduction. 

      Ultimately I want to provide a nice home for a community of fish and I'm willing to do what I need to do to get there. 

      Thank you again for alllllllll your help. I could never afford to bring someone in to do this commercially so I am so grateful you are here to help and I appreciate your advice!!



      Sent from my iPad

      On Dec 23, 2014, at 12:26 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      If there's anything you don't understand about the instructions just ask here and I'm sure someone can help you -- or ask on the other group, as I believe Donna bought a Fluval a short time back after I sent her an Eheim that she wasn't completely happy with.  I know she could help you.
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 12/23/2014 12:19:06 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Thanks! Looking forward to getting it set up but a little intimidated by the book of instructions

      Sent from my iPhone

      On Dec 23, 2014, at 7:15 AM, SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Hi Peg,

        It's a very good make-you will be fine! I've used Fluval internal filters in smaller tanks in the past & they never let me down, I still have those filters & occasionally use them either in hospital tanks or lend them out & they still perform like the day I bought them.

       John<o)))<

      On 23 December 2014 at 02:33, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      Good choice; I'm sure you're going to like it.  Everyone I know who has this brand appreciates them very much.  You can't go wrong and this size is ideal for your needs.
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 12/22/2014 9:30:00 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      I ended up buying the Fluval 206. Just starting to look set paperwork. I'm sure it'll be a bear!!

      Sent from my iPad

      On Dec 22, 2014, at 12:58 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Yes, some hobbyists have a problem distinguishing the test result colors.  Not only might the Seachem ammonia kit show stronger colors but it will eliminate any possible false readings due to using Prime at this same time.
       
      On your softened city water, this is all the more reason why you need to test your tap water daily to know its parameters (especially pH) every day, which appears are fluctuating daily. Â Besides possibly explaining the large differences in pH from day to day, or at least from week to week, it could be a source of ammonia especially if they use a large concentration of chloramine.  Chloramine concentrations are often higher in the Winter anyhow, not necessarily because water companies add more, but because colder water holds more.  You need to test for this also, in your tap water. 
       
      The two canister filters you offer for consideration are certainly priced right but they're not even near the top of the line. Â Besides, the first one (the SunSun model 304B) is meant for a 150 gallon aquarium and rated at a water flow rate of 525 gallons per hour.  If your thinking that this much-larger-than-needed filter would be for efficient, this high of a flow rate would virtually blow your fish out of the water < g > in your 55 gallon tank. 
       
      Even the Penn Cascade filter you cite is meant for a much larger, 100 gallon aquarium, and has a flow rate of 265 gallons per hour -- more compatible with your 55 gallon tank than the SunSun model, although some hobbyist would say it's somewhat excessive depending on the size of your fish.  This flow rate is built into other filters recommended for tank capacities up to 70 gallons.  A better value in the long run -- and perhaps you can find a sale on it soon -- is a Fluval canister filter, which in my estimation is top of the line.  Their Model 306 is designed for aquaria up to 70 gallons, with a flow rate of 303 gallons per hour.  While this flow rate is also somewhat higher than necessary for your 55 gallon aquarium, their Model 305 (also designed for tanks up to 70 gallons) has a more moderate flow rate of 260 gallons per hour -- still slightly high for a 55 gallon tank but still doable, especially if having mostly larger fish.  What I like about the Fluval filters besides their superb design is their large capacity for filter media. Their Models 206 and 306 have three media baskets as opposed to Penn-Plax's two such containers. Â 
       
       Yes, Fluval offers a Model 206, which is designed for tanks up to 40 gallons, but which has a good flow rate of 206 gallons per hour.  This flow rate is quite adequate for a 55 gallon tank and should be well suitable for your application. Â In comparison, Marineland's Model C-220, meant for a 55 gallon tank, has a flow rate of 220 gallons per hour, whereas the Eheim Model 2213-37 canister filter recommended by them for up to a 65 gallon tank has a flow rate of 116 gallons per hour and the Penn-Plax Cascade 700, recommended by them for tanks up to 65 gallons has a flow rate of 185 gallons per hour.  The Fluval 206 would seem the way to go, with a good, but not too strong, flow rate and media capacity.  I've offered other options only to give you more choices, but I believe this Model 206 would be about the best choice.
       
      As far as second in design to the Fluval filters, Eheim rates far up there but still can't hold a candle to Fluval's over all superiority.  Amazon appears to have the Fluval Model 206 on sale now @ $113.15.  As for having a built in UV sterilizer, the SunSun models are the only canister filters I'm aware of that contain a built-in UV sterilizer, including their large Model HW-304B which you gave a link to, but only this manufacturers' larger filters have this feature.  The slightly smaller SunSun Model 302B, designed for the much larger (than your 55) 75 gallon tank -- and having three filter chambers -- doesn't even have a UV sterilizer, and this filter has a too-large-of-a-flow rate for your smaller fish to be comfortable, of 264 gallons per hour . Â Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ 
       
      UV sterilization in canister filters is mainly designed for the marine application.  I'm not sure why you'd want a UV sterilizer except for it sounding like it might be an advantage, but not only are UV sterilizers not designed (not intended) for freshwater aquaria, but after some time they will greatly lower your fishes' immune system's tolerance to pathogens since these fish will no longer be exposed to them.  When adding any new fish at a later date, which normally could carry any types of pathogens with them, your present fish will be extremely susceptible to contracting any disease brought in.  While UV sterilizers are commonly used in the Koi and Goldfish ponds, they're used primarily to control suspended algae.  They can be used for the same purpose in the aquarium, but at this risk. 
       
      Ray Â Ã‚ Ã‚ 
       
       
       
      In a message dated 12/21/2014 9:48:34 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Yes still using the poly in the hang on filter. I change it every 4-5 days. When I take it out it has some gray matter on it but not excessive.

      I have a problem with some of the test kit colors. In comparing them it's hard to tell where they fall sometimes though so I ask hubby to give it a look too. As for the ammonia testing, I've ordered a Seachem Ammonia test that should be here in the next day or so.

      You asked about well water. We're on city water but they tell us that they soften it. I can't tell it though dance I have hard water spots everywhere and they never come off.

      I've been looking at several canister filters. Maybe you could take a look and off advice or suggestions on what I need to look for.

      These are ones I've looked at so far: 




      After reading reviews I'd like the cascade but I'd like yo the uv sterilizer. Can you recommend others to look at?



      Sent from my iPad

      On Dec 21, 2014, at 2:33 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Addressing the notations as I see them, whenever trying to net a fish, always use two nets -- one which you hold steady and one to chase the fish into this stationary net.  Chasing a fish all around the tank with only one net only serves to stress them out, often without really capturing them. 
       
      Looks like your bioload is now light enough to not cause problems in cycling.
       
      Getting right to your ammonia level of 8.0 ppm,  remaining as such even after two recent PWC's, as I believe I stated before, API's ammonia test kit only reads as high as 8.0 ppm.  When you tested for it on Friday, it could have been at 10 ppm, 12 ppm or higher.  Actually, even with disregarding a possibly higher ammonia level for a moment, a 25% PWC with having an 8.0 ppm level of ammonia could only be expected to bring it down to 6.0 ppm. Â The follow-up 50% PWC should have then brought in down to 3.0 ppm, but as it hasn't, unless the test was done improperly, this indicates that your 8.0 ppm ammonia may have been higher that it registered.  For all intents and purposed, at this time while fighting the increase in ammonia, no less than 50% PWC's should be done at any time.  Is the Polyfilter turning color, and are you changing this out periodically to ensure you have active Polyfilter working? 
       
      With the lightened bioload, it's extremely unusual for the pH to have dropped that much (from pH 7.6 down to pH 6.6 with your low pH test kit), during the week and from 12/19 to 12/20.
       
      While on the topic of PWC's, while it's not essential, a 25% PWC would only require adding back 1/2 TBS of Kosher salt.  Only a 50% PWC requires a full TBS of Kosher salt being replaced.  No harm done as it's still very slight, but directions should always be followed as close as possible. 
       
      Now, back to more important issues, I'm wondering if you're reading the pH colors correctly.  When the pH is near neutral (pH 7.0), it can be harder to distinguish between the subtle shades of green and blue.  I trust you're using a piece of white cardboard to better see the colors.  That you're starting to finally get a nitrite reading is encouraging.  While you want to feed these particular nitrobacters, and while you don't want to deplete their food by removing too much of it via PWC's, the 8 ppm ammonia is more than enough of a food source for them.  You do need to get a better PWCing system other than just buckets at this time, as going forward from here you'll need to do more and larger PWC's.  I still have to wonder if you changed ammonia test kit brands or water conditioner brands to prevent possible false readings.
       
      As the 50% PWC did nothing to reduce the ammonia level, nor to raise the pH, you'll have to do a 75% PWC when you can, if you're sure of these test results and if you're changing out the Polyfilter (and still getting these high ammonia readings).  Polyfilter has a finite capacity for impurities and needs to be changed to keep it most effective.  With a 75% PWC, you'll need to add 1 1/2 TBS of Kosher salt back into the tank.  Check your tap water's pH to make sure it hasn't dropped into the acid range.  Not only will you need to reduce the ammonia level to 4.0 ppm, but you need to raise the pH back up into the alkaline range where it was previously -- if your tap water still reads pH 7.4 -- 7.6 and still has the capacity to increase your pH.
       
      Yes, this can be turned around; that you have the start of a nitrite level, the cycle is well into its beginning.  It just may take more work (more & larger PWC's) to keep things stabilized throughout it.  You can consider the 25% PWC as doing practically nothing in addressing the ammonia level even while the pH drop makes little sense at the moment. 
       
      Getting directly to the debris previously in/on your substrate, I fully expected you had no baseline to firm any comparison between very little and excessive, and so I saw no purpose in asking you if it appeared to be too much.  As the debris which you vacuumed though appeared excessive at that time, a remark of such then would have prompted me to suggest continuing cleaning all the gravel -- but then, this was never really gone into much further.  As I recommended above, this would now be the time to finish the vacuuming and no later; this should help matters although a quick turn around can't be expected.
       
      While your kh/gh kit would not be useful in cycling your tank, these parameters are always good to know.  Your posted readings of these tests are helpful in knowing that your GH is only moderately hard while you KH (temporary/carbonate hardness) is not high at all.  Actually, your KH of only 3 o (degrees) shows that its buffering capacity is quite low and that the pH can drop more easily than if this parameter were high.  Still, for the pH to drop as it did needs to have some opposing agent (i.e., an acid) counteracting the effects of the normally higher pH.  Unless your tap water now tests out as being slightly acid, the pH should rise with temporarily more and larger PWC's.  A question while on this topic; do you have well water?  As for a canister filter, you can't go wrong with one.  As far as starting over, there's really no sense in doing that now, when you have the beginnings of cycle, and as you have fish.  By now I'm sure you see it's much harder to cycle a tank having fish in it as you can't let the parameters of the nitrogen cycle become excessive.  With the nitrite now beginning to rise, this is all the more reason why you'll need to keep on top of PWCing to keep this parameter down -- especially if the pH tends to remain on the acid side).  Doing a fishless cycle requires very little (if any) PWCing, except at the very end to remove the excess nitrate.   Â 
       

      Ray
       Â Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ 
       
      In a message dated 12/21/2014 12:58:51 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Last night I was totally dead and wanting to provide more info but could not hold my head up any longer. Still trying to kick my cold which is now all upper respiratory and driving me nuts! 

      Before I forget, I've rehomed all but 3 angelfish, 3 panda Cory cats and 5 neon tetras. I tried to rehome the tetras but I couldn't catch to save my life. The Gourami's and the cats gave me a serious run for my money. 

      On 12/19 (Friday morning) my numbers were ph 6.6, hph, 7.4, ammon 8, nitrites 0 nitrates 20

      I changed 25% of the water and cleaned gravel, on top and underneath. 
      I added the 1 TBSP dissolved kosher salt when complete. 
      The numbers that night were ph 7.6, hph 7.8, ammon 8, nitrites 0, nitrates 20

      12/20 my numbers were ph 6.6, hph 7.4, Ammon 8, nitrites 0, nitrates 20
      I changed 50% of water and vacuumed all the gravel then rinsed all the filters. After complete I added 1 TBSP dissolved kosher salt, figuring I had gotten rid of what I'd it in the day before. 

      My numbers today were ph 6.8, hph 7.4, Ammon 8, nitrites .25, nitrates 20

      I also recd my kh/gh kit. I don't know how to read it yet (working on it tho) so I'll tell you how many drops of solution it took to change each.  GH 10 drops from Orange to green, KH 3 drops to yellow. Now on the kh directions it said the water should turn from blue to yellow but mine was never blue. I put a drop in and it didn't turn blue but wasn't yellow. It took 3 drops to get to yellow but before that it was just various shakes of cloudy/murky.... 
       The tap numbers here are gh 7 drops. Kh 5 drops. 

      You asked about debris I noticed in tank. Being newer I don't have a baseline to determine excessive etc but to me, the debris I've vacuumed is excessive. It's just gross to me. 

      I have ordered a Marina aquavac hoping it'll help me get to the crap deep under the gravel that I'm missing. 
      I'm to the point of wanting to empty the tank, clean it out, clean the rocks, plants etc... Change the filters and basically start over. 
      I wonder if I should chuck the under gravel filter? I've started seriously looking at canister filters and if I empty and start over I want to do it with canister filters and the penguin 350 only. ( no under gravel or hanging filter)

      Maybe I'm being excessive but it feels like I'm not making any progress.  Can this be turned around without going back to the beginning? 

      Sent from my iPhone

      On Dec 21, 2014, at 11:04 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:



      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56319 From: pam andress Date: 12/23/2014
      Subject: Re: Still chuggin' a long
       I have Fluval's set up on both my 55's and my 29 gal tanks. I LOVE them. I personally do not use under gravel filters any more. To me they were more a pain then a help. I also like a thicker base of gravel as I do live plants and find more is better for hiding potted plants. Good luck with your tank.

      Pam


      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2014 19:14:08 -0500
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Still chuggin' a long

       

       
       
      In a message dated 12/23/2014 3:54:27 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      A couple of questions so far but not on actual Fluval set-up.

       Right now I have that under gravel filter running and I'm wondering if I should take it out?

      Also, I've got a good 2.5" substrate. Should I consider removing some?  Reason I ask... I read online that pre bio-wheel days the substrate trapped the necessary stuff to get the tanks cycle going but with the bio-wheel that's no longer necessary. It seems that with less substrate it would be easier to do housekeeping. 

      Even with my water changes the ammonia level has been 4 and above for quite awhile.  What would be the best way to go forward? Drain, clean then hook up the Fluval or partial change, clean then hook up etc.... And in all this the consideration about under gravel filter and substrate reduction. 

      Ultimately I want to provide a nice home for a community of fish and I'm willing to do what I need to do to get there. 

      Thank you again for alllllllll your help. I could never afford to bring someone in to do this commercially so I am so grateful you are here to help and I appreciate your advice!!



      Sent from my iPad

      On Dec 23, 2014, at 12:26 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      If there's anything you don't understand about the instructions just ask here and I'm sure someone can help you -- or ask on the other group, as I believe Donna bought a Fluval a short time back after I sent her an Eheim that she wasn't completely happy with.  I know she could help you.
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 12/23/2014 12:19:06 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Thanks! Looking forward to getting it set up but a little intimidated by the book of instructions

      Sent from my iPhone

      On Dec 23, 2014, at 7:15 AM, SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Hi Peg,

        It's a very good make-you will be fine! I've used Fluval internal filters in smaller tanks in the past & they never let me down, I still have those filters & occasionally use them either in hospital tanks or lend them out & they still perform like the day I bought them.

       John<o)))<

      On 23 December 2014 at 02:33, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      Good choice; I'm sure you're going to like it.  Everyone I know who has this brand appreciates them very much.  You can't go wrong and this size is ideal for your needs.
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 12/22/2014 9:30:00 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      I ended up buying the Fluval 206. Just starting to look set paperwork. I'm sure it'll be a bear!!

      Sent from my iPad

      On Dec 22, 2014, at 12:58 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Yes, some hobbyists have a problem distinguishing the test result colors.  Not only might the Seachem ammonia kit show stronger colors but it will eliminate any possible false readings due to using Prime at this same time.
       
      On your softened city water, this is all the more reason why you need to test your tap water daily to know its parameters (especially pH) every day, which appears are fluctuating daily. Â Besides possibly explaining the large differences in pH from day to day, or at least from week to week, it could be a source of ammonia especially if they use a large concentration of chloramine.  Chloramine concentrations are often higher in the Winter anyhow, not necessarily because water companies add more, but because colder water holds more.  You need to test for this also, in your tap water. 
       
      The two canister filters you offer for consideration are certainly priced right but they're not even near the top of the line. Â Besides, the first one (the SunSun model 304B) is meant for a 150 gallon aquarium and rated at a water flow rate of 525 gallons per hour.  If your thinking that this much-larger-than-needed filter would be for efficient, this high of a flow rate would virtually blow your fish out of the water < g > in your 55 gallon tank. 
       
      Even the Penn Cascade filter you cite is meant for a much larger, 100 gallon aquarium, and has a flow rate of 265 gallons per hour -- more compatible with your 55 gallon tank than the SunSun model, although some hobbyist would say it's somewhat excessive depending on the size of your fish.  This flow rate is built into other filters recommended for tank capacities up to 70 gallons.  A better value in the long run -- and perhaps you can find a sale on it soon -- is a Fluval canister filter, which in my estimation is top of the line.  Their Model 306 is designed for aquaria up to 70 gallons, with a flow rate of 303 gallons per hour.  While this flow rate is also somewhat higher than necessary for your 55 gallon aquarium, their Model 305 (also designed for tanks up to 70 gallons) has a more moderate flow rate of 260 gallons per hour -- still slightly high for a 55 gallon tank but still doable, especially if having mostly larger fish.  What I like about the Fluval filters besides their superb design is their large capacity for filter media. Their Models 206 and 306 have three media baskets as opposed to Penn-Plax's two such containers. Â 
       
       Yes, Fluval offers a Model 206, which is designed for tanks up to 40 gallons, but which has a good flow rate of 206 gallons per hour.  This flow rate is quite adequate for a 55 gallon tank and should be well suitable for your application. Â In comparison, Marineland's Model C-220, meant for a 55 gallon tank, has a flow rate of 220 gallons per hour, whereas the Eheim Model 2213-37 canister filter recommended by them for up to a 65 gallon tank has a flow rate of 116 gallons per hour and the Penn-Plax Cascade 700, recommended by them for tanks up to 65 gallons has a flow rate of 185 gallons per hour.  The Fluval 206 would seem the way to go, with a good, but not too strong, flow rate and media capacity.  I've offered other options only to give you more choices, but I believe this Model 206 would be about the best choice.
       
      As far as second in design to the Fluval filters, Eheim rates far up there but still can't hold a candle to Fluval's over all superiority.  Amazon appears to have the Fluval Model 206 on sale now @ $113.15.  As for having a built in UV sterilizer, the SunSun models are the only canister filters I'm aware of that contain a built-in UV sterilizer, including their large Model HW-304B which you gave a link to, but only this manufacturers' larger filters have this feature.  The slightly smaller SunSun Model 302B, designed for the much larger (than your 55) 75 gallon tank -- and having three filter chambers -- doesn't even have a UV sterilizer, and this filter has a too-large-of-a-flow rate for your smaller fish to be comfortable, of 264 gallons per hour . Â Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ 
       
      UV sterilization in canister filters is mainly designed for the marine application.  I'm not sure why you'd want a UV sterilizer except for it sounding like it might be an advantage, but not only are UV sterilizers not designed (not intended) for freshwater aquaria, but after some time they will greatly lower your fishes' immune system's tolerance to pathogens since these fish will no longer be exposed to them.  When adding any new fish at a later date, which normally could carry any types of pathogens with them, your present fish will be extremely susceptible to contracting any disease brought in.  While UV sterilizers are commonly used in the Koi and Goldfish ponds, they're used primarily to control suspended algae.  They can be used for the same purpose in the aquarium, but at this risk. 
       
      Ray Â Ã‚ Ã‚ 
       
       
       
      In a message dated 12/21/2014 9:48:34 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Yes still using the poly in the hang on filter. I change it every 4-5 days. When I take it out it has some gray matter on it but not excessive.

      I have a problem with some of the test kit colors. In comparing them it's hard to tell where they fall sometimes though so I ask hubby to give it a look too. As for the ammonia testing, I've ordered a Seachem Ammonia test that should be here in the next day or so.

      You asked about well water. We're on city water but they tell us that they soften it. I can't tell it though dance I have hard water spots everywhere and they never come off.

      I've been looking at several canister filters. Maybe you could take a look and off advice or suggestions on what I need to look for.

      These are ones I've looked at so far: 




      After reading reviews I'd like the cascade but I'd like yo the uv sterilizer. Can you recommend others to look at?



      Sent from my iPad

      On Dec 21, 2014, at 2:33 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Addressing the notations as I see them, whenever trying to net a fish, always use two nets -- one which you hold steady and one to chase the fish into this stationary net.  Chasing a fish all around the tank with only one net only serves to stress them out, often without really capturing them. 
       
      Looks like your bioload is now light enough to not cause problems in cycling.
       
      Getting right to your ammonia level of 8.0 ppm,  remaining as such even after two recent PWC's, as I believe I stated before, API's ammonia test kit only reads as high as 8.0 ppm.  When you tested for it on Friday, it could have been at 10 ppm, 12 ppm or higher.  Actually, even with disregarding a possibly higher ammonia level for a moment, a 25% PWC with having an 8.0 ppm level of ammonia could only be expected to bring it down to 6.0 ppm. Â The follow-up 50% PWC should have then brought in down to 3.0 ppm, but as it hasn't, unless the test was done improperly, this indicates that your 8.0 ppm ammonia may have been higher that it registered.  For all intents and purposed, at this time while fighting the increase in ammonia, no less than 50% PWC's should be done at any time.  Is the Polyfilter turning color, and are you changing this out periodically to ensure you have active Polyfilter working? 
       
      With the lightened bioload, it's extremely unusual for the pH to have dropped that much (from pH 7.6 down to pH 6.6 with your low pH test kit), during the week and from 12/19 to 12/20.
       
      While on the topic of PWC's, while it's not essential, a 25% PWC would only require adding back 1/2 TBS of Kosher salt.  Only a 50% PWC requires a full TBS of Kosher salt being replaced.  No harm done as it's still very slight, but directions should always be followed as close as possible. 
       
      Now, back to more important issues, I'm wondering if you're reading the pH colors correctly.  When the pH is near neutral (pH 7.0), it can be harder to distinguish between the subtle shades of green and blue.  I trust you're using a piece of white cardboard to better see the colors.  That you're starting to finally get a nitrite reading is encouraging.  While you want to feed these particular nitrobacters, and while you don't want to deplete their food by removing too much of it via PWC's, the 8 ppm ammonia is more than enough of a food source for them.  You do need to get a better PWCing system other than just buckets at this time, as going forward from here you'll need to do more and larger PWC's.  I still have to wonder if you changed ammonia test kit brands or water conditioner brands to prevent possible false readings.
       
      As the 50% PWC did nothing to reduce the ammonia level, nor to raise the pH, you'll have to do a 75% PWC when you can, if you're sure of these test results and if you're changing out the Polyfilter (and still getting these high ammonia readings).  Polyfilter has a finite capacity for impurities and needs to be changed to keep it most effective.  With a 75% PWC, you'll need to add 1 1/2 TBS of Kosher salt back into the tank.  Check your tap water's pH to make sure it hasn't dropped into the acid range.  Not only will you need to reduce the ammonia level to 4.0 ppm, but you need to raise the pH back up into the alkaline range where it was previously -- if your tap water still reads pH 7.4 -- 7.6 and still has the capacity to increase your pH.
       
      Yes, this can be turned around; that you have the start of a nitrite level, the cycle is well into its beginning.  It just may take more work (more & larger PWC's) to keep things stabilized throughout it.  You can consider the 25% PWC as doing practically nothing in addressing the ammonia level even while the pH drop makes little sense at the moment. 
       
      Getting directly to the debris previously in/on your substrate, I fully expected you had no baseline to firm any comparison between very little and excessive, and so I saw no purpose in asking you if it appeared to be too much.  As the debris which you vacuumed though appeared excessive at that time, a remark of such then would have prompted me to suggest continuing cleaning all the gravel -- but then, this was never really gone into much further.  As I recommended above, this would now be the time to finish the vacuuming and no later; this should help matters although a quick turn around can't be expected.
       
      While your kh/gh kit would not be useful in cycling your tank, these parameters are always good to know.  Your posted readings of these tests are helpful in knowing that your GH is only moderately hard while you KH (temporary/carbonate hardness) is not high at all.  Actually, your KH of only 3 o (degrees) shows that its buffering capacity is quite low and that the pH can drop more easily than if this parameter were high.  Still, for the pH to drop as it did needs to have some opposing agent (i.e., an acid) counteracting the effects of the normally higher pH.  Unless your tap water now tests out as being slightly acid, the pH should rise with temporarily more and larger PWC's.  A question while on this topic; do you have well water?  As for a canister filter, you can't go wrong with one.  As far as starting over, there's really no sense in doing that now, when you have the beginnings of cycle, and as you have fish.  By now I'm sure you see it's much harder to cycle a tank having fish in it as you can't let the parameters of the nitrogen cycle become excessive.  With the nitrite now beginning to rise, this is all the more reason why you'll need to keep on top of PWCing to keep this parameter down -- especially if the pH tends to remain on the acid side).  Doing a fishless cycle requires very little (if any) PWCing, except at the very end to remove the excess nitrate.   Â 
       

      Ray
       Â Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ 
       
      In a message dated 12/21/2014 12:58:51 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Last night I was totally dead and wanting to provide more info but could not hold my head up any longer. Still trying to kick my cold which is now all upper respiratory and driving me nuts! 

      Before I forget, I've rehomed all but 3 angelfish, 3 panda Cory cats and 5 neon tetras. I tried to rehome the tetras but I couldn't catch to save my life. The Gourami's and the cats gave me a serious run for my money. 

      On 12/19 (Friday morning) my numbers were ph 6.6, hph, 7.4, ammon 8, nitrites 0 nitrates 20

      I changed 25% of the water and cleaned gravel, on top and underneath. 
      I added the 1 TBSP dissolved kosher salt when complete. 
      The numbers that night were ph 7.6, hph 7.8, ammon 8, nitrites 0, nitrates 20

      12/20 my numbers were ph 6.6, hph 7.4, Ammon 8, nitrites 0, nitrates 20
      I changed 50% of water and vacuumed all the gravel then rinsed all the filters. After complete I added 1 TBSP dissolved kosher salt, figuring I had gotten rid of what I'd it in the day before. 

      My numbers today were ph 6.8, hph 7.4, Ammon 8, nitrites .25, nitrates 20

      I also recd my kh/gh kit. I don't know how to read it yet (working on it tho) so I'll tell you how many drops of solution it took to change each.  GH 10 drops from Orange to green, KH 3 drops to yellow. Now on the kh directions it said the water should turn from blue to yellow but mine was never blue. I put a drop in and it didn't turn blue but wasn't yellow. It took 3 drops to get to yellow but before that it was just various shakes of cloudy/murky.... 
       The tap numbers here are gh 7 drops. Kh 5 drops. 

      You asked about debris I noticed in tank. Being newer I don't have a baseline to determine excessive etc but to me, the debris I've vacuumed is excessive. It's just gross to me. 

      I have ordered a Marina aquavac hoping it'll help me get to the crap deep under the gravel that I'm missing. 
      I'm to the point of wanting to empty the tank, clean it out, clean the rocks, plants etc... Change the filters and basically start over. 
      I wonder if I should chuck the under gravel filter? I've started seriously looking at canister filters and if I empty and start over I want to do it with canister filters and the penguin 350 only. ( no under gravel or hanging filter)

      Maybe I'm being excessive but it feels like I'm not making any progress.  Can this be turned around without going back to the beginning? 

      Sent from my iPhone

      On Dec 21, 2014, at 11:04 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
















      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56320 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 12/24/2014
      Subject: Happy holidays and thank you!
      I just wanted to wish all happy holidays and say "thank you" for helping me so much with my aquarium! I really appreciate all your time and advice!

      Sent from my iPhone
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56321 From: sevenspringss Date: 12/24/2014
      Subject: Re: Happy holidays and thank you!
      AOL Email
      Peg et al,
       
      Wishing you and everyone else on this Group very Happy Holidays also.  Helping you has been my pleasure, hope all goes well. 
       
      Ray
       
       
       
      In a message dated 12/24/2014 9:18:54 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      I just wanted to wish all happy holidays and say "thank you" for helping me so much with my aquarium! I really appreciate all your time and advice!

      Sent from my iPhone

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56322 From: mrsbige Date: 12/24/2014
      Subject: Re: Still chuggin' a long
      I had wanted to do live plants but I'm glad now that I didn't. It's been hard enough trying to understand and get water conditions correct for fish. If I were trying to factor in live plants I can only imagine how bad Id be screwing that up too. 

      I've been sick for almost a week and now husband and daughter have it too. Makes for a crummy holiday when everyone in the house is sick. My daughter leaves early on the 26th to march with band at the Fiesta Bowl. After we send her off we're going to work on setting the filter up. I'm sure I'll be on here before, during and after looking for answers. 

      Happy holidays!! 
      Peg
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56323 From: deenerzz Date: 12/24/2014
      Subject: Re: Still chuggin' a long
      If you stick with the hardier plants it is not that difficult.

      Anubias is a tough plant, keep it wet and try to remember to bury the roots, but not the Rhizome. Java fern, hard to kill, both of these are the cichlid fishkeepers best friend. Java Moss is another one you just need to keep wet.  Try to anchor it though, it can grow free range unplanted but always clogs my filter intake.  Plants can actually help with ammonia when cycling a new tank. None of these three plants need special lighting, fertilizer, or co2.

      Mike




      -----Original Message-----
      From: peg@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
      To: AquaticLife <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Wed, Dec 24, 2014 10:25 pm
      Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Still chuggin' a long

       
      I had wanted to do live plants but I'm glad now that I didn't. It's been hard enough trying to understand and get water conditions correct for fish. If I were trying to factor in live plants I can only imagine how bad Id be screwing that up too. 

      I've been sick for almost a week and now husband and daughter have it too. Makes for a crummy holiday when everyone in the house is sick. My daughter leaves early on the 26th to march with band at the Fiesta Bowl. After we send her off we're going to work on setting the filter up. I'm sure I'll be on here before, during and after looking for answers. 

      Happy holidays!! 
      Peg
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56324 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 12/25/2014
      Subject: Re: Happy holidays and thank you!
      Belated ditto here, Merry Christmas to everyone.

        John<o)))<

      On 25 December 2014 at 03:52, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      Peg et al,
       
      Wishing you and everyone else on this Group very Happy Holidays also.  Helping you has been my pleasure, hope all goes well. 
       
      Ray
       
       
       
      In a message dated 12/24/2014 9:18:54 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      I just wanted to wish all happy holidays and say "thank you" for helping me so much with my aquarium! I really appreciate all your time and advice!

      Sent from my iPhone


      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56325 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 12/26/2014
      Subject: Questions on re-establishing tank
      Hi Ray! I haven't sent numbers for a few days because it's been so crazy hectic here and the holidays
      just compounded the issues.

      My husband and I are planning on hooking up the Fluval 206 tomorrow and softer reading about installation I've got concerns on my current tank set-up. When we set the tank up the under gravel filter was installed. The plates weren't long enough for the tank so we set it centered in the tank. (You asked if it was the type with the air stone and bubbles and yea, it is). The Fluval instructions show setting up the intake/output centered in the tank and shouldn't be near any air devices so now I fear setting it up with the UGF in place would disrupt the Fluval performance.

      I also have had concerns with the detritus from over feeding and over stocking. We talked and you explained that the tank needed some detritus. I understand "some" but I feel we have too much. Given we didn't understand how much to feed and how many living things should be there, I know we only shot ourselves in the foot.

      The testing numbers still aren't changing and ammonia continues to be too high so I wonder if we'll ever really have a cycle at this rate. It's very discouraging but I've got too much money invested now to just quit. If we were to completely start over adding only the fish we have now and NOT over feeding do you think we have too many fish to start (2 med Angels, 2 mystery snails, 5 neon tetras and 3 panda Cory cats) and be successful?

      All the advice I rec'd from pet shop people was bad so I'd like to do this the smart way.
      Your thoughts?

      Sent from my iPad
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56326 From: sevenspringss Date: 12/26/2014
      Subject: Re: Questions on re-establishing tank
      AOL Email
      Hi Peg,
       
      As long as you're still doing the PWC's as your test results show are needed, there's no problem with not getting back here to report the numbers.  You should by now know how to proceed just by the recommendations I've given.  You haven't replied on whether you've tested your tap water for its possible ammonia content or its pH level, however.  When you do make these PWC's, I hope you're adding back 1 TSP of salt for every 50% PWC you make.  Otherwise, as for the numbers still remaining high, you of course don't have a full cycle but with you're test results showing you have levels of ammonia, nitrite and nitrate, this indicates that both types of nitrifying bacteria are present and increasing.  To better understand why there's little reduction in your numbers (the first two numbers -- ammonia and nitrite) to date, the ammonia level will only decrease of its own accord as you see the nitrite level being harder to maintain at the .25 ppm level you reported several days ago.  I realize that the necessary PWC's will make it impossible to get the true high readings of these two numbers, but then these numbers can't be allowed to increase substantially, especially the nitrite -- but only if the same amount of water being changed has less of an effect on keeping the nitrite from climbing, will this number show that the ammonia level should really be decreasing at this time (even though it's still tending to be above 4 ppm).  I hope this makes sense.  BTW, any change in the ammonia number with the new Seachem test kit? 
       
      Unless more nitrite is being produced, to indicate that more ammonia is being converted into that -- as should be started to show in your nitrite test results by now -- your nitrifying type of bacteria that breaks down your ammonia into nitrite are still far from being sufficiently populated in all three of your present filtration systems.  Along these same lines, any increase in your nitrate level will show that the type of nitrifying bacteria that convert your nitrite into nitrate are on the increase, which in turn will indicate that they are starting to be well fed (with converted ammonia), showing that the ammonia-converting bacteria are on the increase.  This end product's (nitrate's) level will tend to show an overall picture of the cycle's progress, but the nitrate level doesn't increase at quite as fast of a rate of speed as does the previous two products so you won't see a dramatic rise in it.  Any rise in the nitrate at all will show the advancement in your cycle though -- OR, especially even its (the nitrate's) stabilization at no lower level than the previous 20 ppm being maintained while you're removing much of it at this time with your PWC's.  Again, let me know if you have any questions on this.
       
      Getting back to increases in the ammonia, even while the ammonia-converting nitrifying bacteria may be increasing substantially in numbers, if more than the normal amount of ammonia is being added to the aquarium (in addition to the fishes' waste) by excess food from overfeeding and/or from excess food and fish waste having infiltrated the substrate (and food & waste not being kept from accumulating in the filters), the ammonia can only increase as no amount of nitrifying bacteria can keep it from rising under such circumstances.  Only by feeding prudently and by keeping the filters cleared of excess debris (but not excessively cleaned to the point of compromising the bacteria populations) can the ammonia be kept in check -- and this goes for keeping the substrate prudently vacuumed as well while alternating from side to side as a way to preserve those bacteria in the gravel.  New ammonia being added to the tank via the tap water will only serve to add to this parameter's number as well, if much is present in that source.
       
      As for a tank "needing" some detritus, this debris will help in establishing the nitrifying bacteria in your filters since they're already growing on this matter, and while a fastidiously-maintained tank will not have the benefit of detritus to help populate the filters from these bacteria populations, ideally this debris should be kept at a very minimum (if at all) and the source of food (ammonia) for the nitrifying bacteria should primarily be from the fish themselves.  This source of ammonia will be constant and at a level that the nitrifying bacteria will in time multiply to in the filters in numbers to oxidize all of it each day.  One other thing I need to stress while on this topic -- After hooking up the Fluval, it can't be expected to establish nitrifying bacteria populations over night.  A cycle will normally take close to and most often up to 6 weeks before becoming fully established -- and that's with fishless cycling where PWC's are not needed to keep the numbers down.  With the PWC's needed to be made to prevent undo stress on the fish, it can be expected to take at least as long.  To have ANY fish in the tank before a cycle was established was where you "shot yourself in the foot," but we now need to go forward under these conditions now.  Getting right back to the detritus, please elaborate on your feeling that you have too much as I don't have a complete picture of this statement.  Exactly where is it and how much is there, and in what form?           
       
      Now, on the UGF plates, the riser tubes should always be positioned so that they're nearest the corners of the tank.  From what I'm understanding from your description, as the two plates aren't as long as the tank when they were set in, you butted them at the center of the tank leaving space towards the ends of the tank.  While this still wouldn't adversely impact their action that much, that they're now in this position will interfere with the Fluval's intake, as I understand you to say.  The only alternative (besides removing the UGF plates completely) would be to temporarily remove some gravel at each end of the tank and reposition the plates towards the ends of the tank -- if it's seen that this will help.  The Fluval should not be operated in any way where it could draw in air, as it appears you're already aware of.  Actually, when I asked about the method of your UGF's operation, not knowing how your's operated I was about to suggest you install powerheads on top of the riser tubes which would make for more efficient UGF's.  This may also eliminate the air issue in interfering with the Fluval.  Or, you may choose to remove the plates entirely, but then I feel a thorough cleaning of the gravel should be done to remove any partially converted waste that has been drawn down into it by the UGF's action.
       
      Getting right to the bioload you have at present and its impact/association on a cycle, it's well below the maximum stocking capacity for this size tank and for this very reason alone, the amount (and size) of the fishes you outlined along with proper feeding should not prevent a successfully established cycle.  The smaller the amount of fish though, the easier it will always be in getting a tank cycled.  I would like to add however, that I believe the excessively high ammonia level is not only the result of these fishes' waste but something in your tank's workings that I can't see from here, resulting from other organic matter in its system contributing to it.  While I can't be completely certain on that, not being able to actually see your tank, a constant level of 8 ppm ammonia with 50% PWC's would seem much more than these fishes can produce in waste.  Perhaps Dawn may be able to comment on this also. 
       
      Ray     
       
       
      In a message dated 12/26/2014 9:11:40 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hi Ray! I haven't sent numbers for a few days because it's been so crazy hectic here and the holidays
      just compounded the issues.

      My husband and I are planning on hooking up the Fluval 206 tomorrow and softer reading about installation I've got concerns on my current tank set-up. When we set the tank up the under gravel filter was installed. The plates weren't long enough for the tank so we set it centered in the tank. (You asked if it was the type with the air stone and bubbles and yea, it is). The Fluval instructions show setting up the intake/output centered in the tank and shouldn't be near any air devices so now I fear setting it up with the UGF in place would disrupt the Fluval performance.

      I also have had concerns with the detritus from over feeding and over stocking. We talked and you explained that the tank needed some detritus. I understand "some" but I feel we have too much. Given we didn't understand how much to feed and how many living things should be there, I know we only shot ourselves in the foot.

      The testing numbers still aren't changing and ammonia continues to be too high so I wonder if we'll ever really have a cycle at this rate. It's very discouraging but I've got too much money invested now to just quit. If we were to completely start over adding only the fish we have now and NOT over feeding do you think we have too many fish to start (2 med Angels, 2 mystery snails, 5 neon tetras and 3 panda Cory cats) and be successful?

      All the advice I rec'd from pet shop people was bad so I'd like to do this the smart way.
      Your thoughts?

      Sent from my iPad

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56327 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 12/28/2014
      Subject: Re: Questions on re-establishing tank
      Hi!! I hope you had a nice holiday! I have to admit that I'll be glad after New Years when life can get back to normal! 

      I caught a chance to re-home the rest of my fish and not knowing what direction we were going with the tank, I took it. A friend was able to adopt all with the exception of the 2 medium Angels. I set up my 5 gallon and have moved them in there temporarily. The plan is that they won't be there past tomorrow. 

      I haven't received my Seachem Ammonia test kit. I guess the delivery was delayed due to the holiday but I'm hoping it'll be here tomorrow.  I did test our tap water and the numbers were: PH 7.6, High PH 7.4, Ammonia 0, GH 8, KH 6
      The tank has been running empty since the night of the 26th so today I tested everything to see where it stands. Currently PH 6.8, high PH 7.4, ammonia 8, nitrites either 2 or 5 - the color was so close I couldn't pinpoint it, nitrates 10, GH 10, KH 2

      I guess I feel like we've got way too much debris because when stirring up the rocks it becomes cloudy and then we see these little fuzz balls that look like they have a seed in the center. For some reason I believe these to be the excess food that's rotten or moldy??  

      I re-read your post and see that the rise of nitrites means more of the ammonia is being converted. Even with that it still seems like we have a long way to go. And I worry that the nitrites/nitrates will never catch up. 

      I definitely want to get the UGF out of the tank. No don't want it to interrupt the Fluval. Removing it leaves us with the Marineland bio-wheel 350 and the whisper to work with the Fluval. I had ordered another Marineland 350 which I thought was going to be used on the frog tank but it was too big. I was sending it back to Amazon but they don't want to deal with the return so they told me to me to keep it, along with a full box of filters. 
       I was wondering if we could pull the UGF, vacuum all up under the gravel and then swap out the whisper for the new 350? That would give me those 2-350's and the Fluval 206. Do you think that would blow the fish around too much? I don't have a lot of confidence that the whisper for some reason. I'm new & all I know now is what I'm taught and then there is what I read, which may or may not be true.  I don't see the whisper referenced a lot or as talked up a lot. This causes me to doubt it's capability I guess. I have a chance to choose between the extra 350 and the whisper. If it were you, which would you consider to be a better pick. I know the whisper has filters that have been working and have that good bacteria in them. The new 350 would have 4 filter slots filled with new media. I wondered, could we switch and use the 2-350's? Is it possible to pull 1 set of filters from the current 350 and transplant them to the new one? The other two slots in each of the 350's would then get new media? Can you do that, transplant the filter media to a new filter so it's not so "new?" If possible, would spreading out the media, cleaning up the debris drawn under the UGF, doing a water change - either full or a percentage and adding the Fluval allow me to put some fish in and eventually get thru a full cycle?  

      When I started out it was for the African Dwarf Frogs. I only had a 5 gal tank for awhile and several times I had to dump the water, change the filters and start over. The frogs were over crowded and over fed so that tank never cycled. It was frustrating. They're now in a 10 gallon and I'm working to get thru a cycle. I feel like I'm finally getting somewhere. 

      The excessive ammonia I believe is from a combination of too many fish too early and over feeding. I know we were giving them the sinking pellets, flake food, algae wafers, mini-bites and bottom feeders food. And to mKe matters worse, they were getting it several times a day per the instructions on the containers. 
       
      If dumping part or all of the water would you suggest adding a bottle of Safe Start Plus after the fish get back in! Any other additives you'd suggest? 

      Thanks, 
      Peg


      On Dec 26, 2014, at 11:51 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Hi Peg,
       
      As long as you're still doing the PWC's as your test results show are needed, there's no problem with not getting back here to report the numbers.  You should by now know how to proceed just by the recommendations I've given.  You haven't replied on whether you've tested your tap water for its possible ammonia content or its pH level, however.  When you do make these PWC's, I hope you're adding back 1 TSP of salt for every 50% PWC you make.  Otherwise, as for the numbers still remaining high, you of course don't have a full cycle but with you're test results showing you have levels of ammonia, nitrite and nitrate, this indicates that both types of nitrifying bacteria are present and increasing.  To better understand why there's little reduction in your numbers (the first two numbers -- ammonia and nitrite) to date, the ammonia level will only decrease of its own accord as you see the nitrite level being harder to maintain at the .25 ppm level you reported several days ago.  I realize that the necessary PWC's will make it impossible to get the true high readings of these two numbers, but then these numbers can't be allowed to increase substantially, especially the nitrite -- but only if the same amount of water being changed has less of an effect on keeping the nitrite from climbing, will this number show that the ammonia level should really be decreasing at this time (even though it's still tending to be above 4 ppm).  I hope this makes sense.  BTW, any change in the ammonia number with the new Seachem test kit? 
       
      Unless more nitrite is being produced, to indicate that more ammonia is being converted into that -- as should be started to show in your nitrite test results by now -- your nitrifying type of bacteria that breaks down your ammonia into nitrite are still far from being sufficiently populated in all three of your present filtration systems.  Along these same lines, any increase in your nitrate level will show that the type of nitrifying bacteria that convert your nitrite into nitrate are on the increase, which in turn will indicate that they are starting to be well fed (with converted ammonia), showing that the ammonia-converting bacteria are on the increase.  This end product's (nitrate's) level will tend to show an overall picture of the cycle's progress, but the nitrate level doesn't increase at quite as fast of a rate of speed as does the previous two products so you won't see a dramatic rise in it.  Any rise in the nitrate at all will show the advancement in your cycle though -- OR, especially even its (the nitrate's) stabilization at no lower level than the previous 20 ppm being maintained while you're removing much of it at this time with your PWC's.  Again, let me know if you have any questions on this.
       
      Getting back to increases in the ammonia, even while the ammonia-converting nitrifying bacteria may be increasing substantially in numbers, if more than the normal amount of ammonia is being added to the aquarium (in addition to the fishes' waste) by excess food from overfeeding and/or from excess food and fish waste having infiltrated the substrate (and food & waste not being kept from accumulating in the filters), the ammonia can only increase as no amount of nitrifying bacteria can keep it from rising under such circumstances.  Only by feeding prudently and by keeping the filters cleared of excess debris (but not excessively cleaned to the point of compromising the bacteria populations) can the ammonia be kept in check -- and this goes for keeping the substrate prudently vacuumed as well while alternating from side to side as a way to preserve those bacteria in the gravel.  New ammonia being added to the tank via the tap water will only serve to add to this parameter's number as well, if much is present in that source.
       
      As for a tank "needing" some detritus, this debris will help in establishing the nitrifying bacteria in your filters since they're already growing on this matter, and while a fastidiously-maintained tank will not have the benefit of detritus to help populate the filters from these bacteria populations, ideally this debris should be kept at a very minimum (if at all) and the source of food (ammonia) for the nitrifying bacteria should primarily be from the fish themselves.  This source of ammonia will be constant and at a level that the nitrifying bacteria will in time multiply to in the filters in numbers to oxidize all of it each day.  One other thing I need to stress while on this topic -- After hooking up the Fluval, it can't be expected to establish nitrifying bacteria populations over night.  A cycle will normally take close to and most often up to 6 weeks before becoming fully established -- and that's with fishless cycling where PWC's are not needed to keep the numbers down.  With the PWC's needed to be made to prevent undo stress on the fish, it can be expected to take at least as long.  To have ANY fish in the tank before a cycle was established was where you "shot yourself in the foot," but we now need to go forward under these conditions now.  Getting right back to the detritus, please elaborate on your feeling that you have too much as I don't have a complete picture of this statement.  Exactly where is it and how much is there, and in what form?           
       
      Now, on the UGF plates, the riser tubes should always be positioned so that they're nearest the corners of the tank.  From what I'm understanding from your description, as the two plates aren't as long as the tank when they were set in, you butted them at the center of the tank leaving space towards the ends of the tank.  While this still wouldn't adversely impact their action that much, that they're now in this position will interfere with the Fluval's intake, as I understand you to say.  The only alternative (besides removing the UGF plates completely) would be to temporarily remove some gravel at each end of the tank and reposition the plates towards the ends of the tank -- if it's seen that this will help.  The Fluval should not be operated in any way where it could draw in air, as it appears you're already aware of.  Actually, when I asked about the method of your UGF's operation, not knowing how your's operated I was about to suggest you install powerheads on top of the riser tubes which would make for more efficient UGF's.  This may also eliminate the air issue in interfering with the Fluval.  Or, you may choose to remove the plates entirely, but then I feel a thorough cleaning of the gravel should be done to remove any partially converted waste that has been drawn down into it by the UGF's action.
       
      Getting right to the bioload you have at present and its impact/association on a cycle, it's well below the maximum stocking capacity for this size tank and for this very reason alone, the amount (and size) of the fishes you outlined along with proper feeding should not prevent a successfully established cycle.  The smaller the amount of fish though, the easier it will always be in getting a tank cycled.  I would like to add however, that I believe the excessively high ammonia level is not only the result of these fishes' waste but something in your tank's workings that I can't see from here, resulting from other organic matter in its system contributing to it.  While I can't be completely certain on that, not being able to actually see your tank, a constant level of 8 ppm ammonia with 50% PWC's would seem much more than these fishes can produce in waste.  Perhaps Dawn may be able to comment on this also. 
       
      Ray     
       
       
      In a message dated 12/26/2014 9:11:40 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hi Ray! I haven't sent numbers for a few days because it's been so crazy hectic here and the holidays
      just compounded the issues.

      My husband and I are planning on hooking up the Fluval 206 tomorrow and softer reading about installation I've got concerns on my current tank set-up. When we set the tank up the under gravel filter was installed. The plates weren't long enough for the tank so we set it centered in the tank. (You asked if it was the type with the air stone and bubbles and yea, it is). The Fluval instructions show setting up the intake/output centered in the tank and shouldn't be near any air devices so now I fear setting it up with the UGF in place would disrupt the Fluval performance.

      I also have had concerns with the detritus from over feeding and over stocking. We talked and you explained that the tank needed some detritus. I understand "some" but I feel we have too much. Given we didn't understand how much to feed and how many living things should be there, I know we only shot ourselves in the foot.

      The testing numbers still aren't changing and ammonia continues to be too high so I wonder if we'll ever really have a cycle at this rate. It's very discouraging but I've got too much money invested now to just quit. If we were to completely start over adding only the fish we have now and NOT over feeding do you think we have too many fish to start (2 med Angels, 2 mystery snails, 5 neon tetras and 3 panda Cory cats) and be successful?

      All the advice I rec'd from pet shop people was bad so I'd like to do this the smart way.
      Your thoughts?

      Sent from my iPhone

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56328 From: sevenspringss Date: 12/28/2014
      Subject: Re: Questions on re-establishing tank
      AOL Email
      Hi Peg,
       
      Yes, the holidays are just fine and now with New Year's Day coming up, it will just serve to extend them for another half a week.  Enjoy them while you can.  Yes, sooner or later things will normalize.
       
      Rehoming your remaining fish should make things much easier from here on in.   I'm eager to see what your ammonia tests out to be when you Seachem kit arrives.  Typically, and unless your water supplier  gives you super chloraminated water, most water companies use a concentration of around 4 ppm chloramine in their drinking water.  As the chlorine and the ammonia combine at a ratio of 7.6 to 1, you probably have about 0.5 ppm of ammonia in your tap water, but apparently nothing excessive above that.  Good to see that your ammonia test results are coming up minimal (zero?).  One thing I notice is that the high pH test resuolt of your tap water is pH 7.4 -- and you high pH test result of your aquarium water is exactly the same -- yet your low pH tests of these two different water shows a difference of pH 0.8.  I'm not understanding this at all.  While each test kit tests in a different range, they both should show a direct relationship to each other.  There should be no large difference in one test if the other test remains stable.  Maybe (hopefully) Dawn can join us to figure this one out as maybe I'm missing something, or else maybe there been an error in reading the tests.
       
      While the test colors for the nitrite may be "close" to either 2.0 ppm or 5.0 ppm, there's a huge difference in toxicity if fish were still involved.  Now, with you nitrate previously testing out at 20 ppm even through several PWC's you've made, only to test at 10.0 ppm now, does not seem possible since there's more nitrite available now to be converted into nitrate.  Have you made another large PWC just prior to testing for nitrate? 
       
      Without having any fish in the tank now, rest assured that you don't need to make those PWC's to keep the organic waste parameters down.  You will need to monitor them, to maintain the ammonia at a minimum level of about 3.0 ppm, but you no longer need to be concerned much about it being up at 8.0 ppm -- unless it tends to remain there (which I suspect it may, due to possible excess organic matter in the water).  But, if all starts to go well, as more (if more) ammonia is being converted, you'll need to add a small amount of clear (not sudsy) household ammonia to the tank to keep the level up at 3.0 ppm.  This is done by daily additions of household ammonia of from 3 to 4 drops per gallon to maintain this level constantly, until you see that this same addition of ammonia every day results in a zero reading the following day.  At that time, you'll know your tank is cycled.
       
      With the ammonia at 8.0 ppm, and with the level of debris as being able to be stirred up and making the water cloudy -- and exhibiting organic solids in the form of these "seeds/fuzz balls" -- this is waaay too much debris to have in any tank.  Yes, this is rotting food, and is where your high ammonia is coming from.  And yes, with this enlightenment, you do have a looong way to go, not necessarily in cycling the tank (as the higher ammonia should assist it), but just to make the tank livable for fish.  I wasn't aware there was this much debris.  Without fish in the tank though, this will make it easier (BTW, you can discontinue the Prime at this time when making smaller PWC's but do use it with the extra-large PWC's so as not to kill the bacteria). 
       
      With addressing this problem, and with your intention of removing the UGF, a thorough stirring of the entire gravel bed (as opposed to vacuuming the gravel) would be in the tank's best interest, followed immediately with a 60% PWC while most of the debris is still in suspension. You need to get as much debris out of this tank as possible -- and it can be done now that you know what's needed.  It would serve no purpose to dump all of the water as that would remove all of the ammonia (food for the bacteria), but you will probably need to stir the water up again to remove the remainder of the debris that settled, via another PWC -- as large as maintaining a 3.0 ppm ammonia level will allow -- or removing even more water but replacing the removed ammonia with the household type.  When you get ready to make this second PWC -- and there's not an immediate rush  to do so -- test the ammonia level and post it on here if you're not sure of how much water to change.  Using household ammonia to supplement the needed ammonia level is not hard to do, however.  You've got to get all of that debris out of there though as is sounds to be extremely excessive.
       
      Now as for the bio-wheel filters, while using another Marineland 350 in place of the Whisper would give you more media chambers, the bio-wheels themselves are by their very nature notoriously slower in becoming populated with nitrifying bacteria.  There's nothing wrong with your Whisper 40 filter at all, and HOB filters are quite efficient.  Getting right to one of your last questions in this message, yes certainly, established (with bacteria) filter media can be transplanted from one filter to another and often IS.  Only the different shapes of the different filters may cause some difficulty in doing this, but if that's the intent it can even be trimmed with a scissors to make it fit.  If it were me, I'd stick with the Whisper filter, since it's been up and running through all this time -- even if it was gunked up for some period.  The only thing different I might have done would have been to use a Hagen AquaClear HOB (Hang-On-Back) filter from the start as it's about the best of this design, but this outside HOB filter concept is still one of the best by any manufacturer.
       
      As for your last question, while I have no actual experience with Safe Start Plus -- and I always prefer to base my recommendations and suggestions on personal experience -- from all I've read on it, it seems to be a viable additive capable of supplying nitrifying bacteria.  I've already suggested the additive that I'd use, that being Dr. Tim's One and Only, which Dawn doesn't approve of quite as well as the Bio product she prefers.  
       
      Ray 
             
       
      In a message dated 12/28/2014 10:58:38 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hi!! I hope you had a nice holiday! I have to admit that I'll be glad after New Years when life can get back to normal! 

      I caught a chance to re-home the rest of my fish and not knowing what direction we were going with the tank, I took it. A friend was able to adopt all with the exception of the 2 medium Angels. I set up my 5 gallon and have moved them in there temporarily. The plan is that they won't be there past tomorrow. 

      I haven't received my Seachem Ammonia test kit. I guess the delivery was delayed due to the holiday but I'm hoping it'll be here tomorrow.  I did test our tap water and the numbers were: PH 7.6, High PH 7.4, Ammonia 0, GH 8, KH 6
      The tank has been running empty since the night of the 26th so today I tested everything to see where it stands. Currently PH 6.8, high PH 7.4, ammonia 8, nitrites either 2 or 5 - the color was so close I couldn't pinpoint it, nitrates 10, GH 10, KH 2

      I guess I feel like we've got way too much debris because when stirring up the rocks it becomes cloudy and then we see these little fuzz balls that look like they have a seed in the center. For some reason I believe these to be the excess food that's rotten or moldy??  

      I re-read your post and see that the rise of nitrites means more of the ammonia is being converted. Even with that it still seems like we have a long way to go. And I worry that the nitrites/nitrates will never catch up. 

      I definitely want to get the UGF out of the tank. No don't want it to interrupt the Fluval. Removing it leaves us with the Marineland bio-wheel 350 and the whisper to work with the Fluval. I had ordered another Marineland 350 which I thought was going to be used on the frog tank but it was too big. I was sending it back to Amazon but they don't want to deal with the return so they told me to me to keep it, along with a full box of filters. 
       I was wondering if we could pull the UGF, vacuum all up under the gravel and then swap out the whisper for the new 350? That would give me those 2-350's and the Fluval 206. Do you think that would blow the fish around too much? I don't have a lot of confidence that the whisper for some reason. I'm new & all I know now is what I'm taught and then there is what I read, which may or may not be true.  I don't see the whisper referenced a lot or as talked up a lot. This causes me to doubt it's capability I guess. I have a chance to choose between the extra 350 and the whisper. If it were you, which would you consider to be a better pick. I know the whisper has filters that have been working and have that good bacteria in them. The new 350 would have 4 filter slots filled with new media. I wondered, could we switch and use the 2-350's? Is it possible to pull 1 set of filters from the current 350 and transplant them to the new one? The other two slots in each of the 350's would then get new media? Can you do that, transplant the filter media to a new filter so it's not so "new?" If possible, would spreading out the media, cleaning up the debris drawn under the UGF, doing a water change - either full or a percentage and adding the Fluval allow me to put some fish in and eventually get thru a full cycle?  

      When I started out it was for the African Dwarf Frogs. I only had a 5 gal tank for awhile and several times I had to dump the water, change the filters and start over. The frogs were over crowded and over fed so that tank never cycled. It was frustrating. They're now in a 10 gallon and I'm working to get thru a cycle. I feel like I'm finally getting somewhere. 

      The excessive ammonia I believe is from a combination of too many fish too early and over feeding. I know we were giving them the sinking pellets, flake food, algae wafers, mini-bites and bottom feeders food. And to make matters worse, they were getting it several times a day per the instructions on the containers. 
       
      If dumping part or all of the water would you suggest adding a bottle of Safe Start Plus after the fish get back in! Any other additives you'd suggest? 

      Thanks, 
      Peg


      On Dec 26, 2014, at 11:51 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Hi Peg,
       
      As long as you're still doing the PWC's as your test results show are needed, there's no problem with not getting back here to report the numbers.  You should by now know how to proceed just by the recommendations I've given.  You haven't replied on whether you've tested your tap water for its possible ammonia content or its pH level, however.  When you do make these PWC's, I hope you're adding back 1 TSP of salt for every 50% PWC you make.  Otherwise, as for the numbers still remaining high, you of course don't have a full cycle but with you're test results showing you have levels of ammonia, nitrite and nitrate, this indicates that both types of nitrifying bacteria are present and increasing.  To better understand why there's little reduction in your numbers (the first two numbers -- ammonia and nitrite) to date, the ammonia level will only decrease of its own accord as you see the nitrite level being harder to maintain at the .25 ppm level you reported several days ago.  I realize that the necessary PWC's will make it impossible to get the true high readings of these two numbers, but then these numbers can't be allowed to increase substantially, especially the nitrite -- but only if the same amount of water being changed has less of an effect on keeping the nitrite from climbing, will this number show that the ammonia level should really be decreasing at this time (even though it's still tending to be above 4 ppm).  I hope this makes sense.  BTW, any change in the ammonia number with the new Seachem test kit? 
       
      Unless more nitrite is being produced, to indicate that more ammonia is being converted into that -- as should be started to show in your nitrite test results by now -- your nitrifying type of bacteria that breaks down your ammonia into nitrite are still far from being sufficiently populated in all three of your present filtration systems.  Along these same lines, any increase in your nitrate level will show that the type of nitrifying bacteria that convert your nitrite into nitrate are on the increase, which in turn will indicate that they are starting to be well fed (with converted ammonia), showing that the ammonia-converting bacteria are on the increase.  This end product's (nitrate's) level will tend to show an overall picture of the cycle's progress, but the nitrate level doesn't increase at quite as fast of a rate of speed as does the previous two products so you won't see a dramatic rise in it.  Any rise in the nitrate at all will show the advancement in your cycle though -- OR, especially even its (the nitrate's) stabilization at no lower level than the previous 20 ppm being maintained while you're removing much of it at this time with your PWC's.  Again, let me know if you have any questions on this.
       
      Getting back to increases in the ammonia, even while the ammonia-converting nitrifying bacteria may be increasing substantially in numbers, if more than the normal amount of ammonia is being added to the aquarium (in addition to the fishes' waste) by excess food from overfeeding and/or from excess food and fish waste having infiltrated the substrate (and food & waste not being kept from accumulating in the filters), the ammonia can only increase as no amount of nitrifying bacteria can keep it from rising under such circumstances.  Only by feeding prudently and by keeping the filters cleared of excess debris (but not excessively cleaned to the point of compromising the bacteria populations) can the ammonia be kept in check -- and this goes for keeping the substrate prudently vacuumed as well while alternating from side to side as a way to preserve those bacteria in the gravel.  New ammonia being added to the tank via the tap water will only serve to add to this parameter's number as well, if much is present in that source.
       
      As for a tank "needing" some detritus, this debris will help in establishing the nitrifying bacteria in your filters since they're already growing on this matter, and while a fastidiously-maintained tank will not have the benefit of detritus to help populate the filters from these bacteria populations, ideally this debris should be kept at a very minimum (if at all) and the source of food (ammonia) for the nitrifying bacteria should primarily be from the fish themselves.  This source of ammonia will be constant and at a level that the nitrifying bacteria will in time multiply to in the filters in numbers to oxidize all of it each day.  One other thing I need to stress while on this topic -- After hooking up the Fluval, it can't be expected to establish nitrifying bacteria populations over night.  A cycle will normally take close to and most often up to 6 weeks before becoming fully established -- and that's with fishless cycling where PWC's are not needed to keep the numbers down.  With the PWC's needed to be made to prevent undo stress on the fish, it can be expected to take at least as long.  To have ANY fish in the tank before a cycle was established was where you "shot yourself in the foot," but we now need to go forward under these conditions now.  Getting right back to the detritus, please elaborate on your feeling that you have too much as I don't have a complete picture of this statement.  Exactly where is it and how much is there, and in what form?           
       
      Now, on the UGF plates, the riser tubes should always be positioned so that they're nearest the corners of the tank.  From what I'm understanding from your description, as the two plates aren't as long as the tank when they were set in, you butted them at the center of the tank leaving space towards the ends of the tank.  While this still wouldn't adversely impact their action that much, that they're now in this position will interfere with the Fluval's intake, as I understand you to say.  The only alternative (besides removing the UGF plates completely) would be to temporarily remove some gravel at each end of the tank and reposition the plates towards the ends of the tank -- if it's seen that this will help.  The Fluval should not be operated in any way where it could draw in air, as it appears you're already aware of.  Actually, when I asked about the method of your UGF's operation, not knowing how your's operated I was about to suggest you install powerheads on top of the riser tubes which would make for more efficient UGF's.  This may also eliminate the air issue in interfering with the Fluval.  Or, you may choose to remove the plates entirely, but then I feel a thorough cleaning of the gravel should be done to remove any partially converted waste that has been drawn down into it by the UGF's action.
       
      Getting right to the bioload you have at present and its impact/association on a cycle, it's well below the maximum stocking capacity for this size tank and for this very reason alone, the amount (and size) of the fishes you outlined along with proper feeding should not prevent a successfully established cycle.  The smaller the amount of fish though, the easier it will always be in getting a tank cycled.  I would like to add however, that I believe the excessively high ammonia level is not only the result of these fishes' waste but something in your tank's workings that I can't see from here, resulting from other organic matter in its system contributing to it.  While I can't be completely certain on that, not being able to actually see your tank, a constant level of 8 ppm ammonia with 50% PWC's would seem much more than these fishes can produce in waste.  Perhaps Dawn may be able to comment on this also. 
       
      Ray     
       
       
      In a message dated 12/26/2014 9:11:40 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hi Ray! I haven't sent numbers for a few days because it's been so crazy hectic here and the holidays
      just compounded the issues.

      My husband and I are planning on hooking up the Fluval 206 tomorrow and softer reading about installation I've got concerns on my current tank set-up. When we set the tank up the under gravel filter was installed. The plates weren't long enough for the tank so we set it centered in the tank. (You asked if it was the type with the air stone and bubbles and yea, it is). The Fluval instructions show setting up the intake/output centered in the tank and shouldn't be near any air devices so now I fear setting it up with the UGF in place would disrupt the Fluval performance.

      I also have had concerns with the detritus from over feeding and over stocking. We talked and you explained that the tank needed some detritus. I understand "some" but I feel we have too much. Given we didn't understand how much to feed and how many living things should be there, I know we only shot ourselves in the foot.

      The testing numbers still aren't changing and ammonia continues to be too high so I wonder if we'll ever really have a cycle at this rate. It's very discouraging but I've got too much money invested now to just quit. If we were to completely start over adding only the fish we have now and NOT over feeding do you think we have too many fish to start (2 med Angels, 2 mystery snails, 5 neon tetras and 3 panda Cory cats) and be successful?

      All the advice I rec'd from pet shop people was bad so I'd like to do this the smart way.
      Your thoughts?

      Sent from my iPhone

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56329 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 12/29/2014
      Subject: Aquarium Sand
      I'm on my way to get the Malawai/Victoria Powder for my frog tank and I'm working on a response to your last email but real quick I wanted to ask you what you think of that sand that has the built-in bacteria.
      I wanted sand when we first put the tank up but with the UGF didn't know if it was ok and also I thought my frog would be in there and I feared they'd swallow it when grabbing food.
      Thanks!!

      Sent from my iPhone
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56330 From: sevenspringss Date: 12/29/2014
      Subject: Re: Aquarium Sand
      AOL Email
      Peg,
       
      As far as I know, the only "live" sand in the aquarium trade is for there marine environment.  I've never heard of sand for the freshwater aquarium containing live nitrifying bacteria, as being packaged and sold.  One other thing on this while on the topic, while I may be mistaken, was it you who replied to Dawn saying you had three large live aquarium plants?  If you grow any (rooted types) aquarium plants at all, you do not want sand as a substrate as it compacts to densely for proper root growth.  For this same reason, you wouldn't want it for a UGF as it wouldn't be able to draw water through this medium very well -- and much of it will get pulled down under the UGF plates making the filter extremely inefficient -- if it continued to work at all.
       
      Ray
       
      In a message dated 12/29/2014 1:20:02 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      I'm on my way to get the Malawai/Victoria Powder for my frog tank and I'm working on a response to your last email but real quick I wanted to ask you what you think of that sand that has the built-in bacteria.
      I wanted sand when we first put the tank up but with the UGF didn't know if it was ok and also I thought my frog would be in there and I feared they'd swallow it when grabbing food.
      Thanks!!

      Sent from my iPhone

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56331 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 12/29/2014
      Subject: Re: Aquarium Sand
      No that wasn't me that had the three light plants that was the guy that was asking a question think he had male guppies or something

      Sent from my iPhone

      On Dec 29, 2014, at 1:33 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Peg,
       
      As far as I know, the only "live" sand in the aquarium trade is for there marine environment.  I've never heard of sand for the freshwater aquarium containing live nitrifying bacteria, as being packaged and sold.  One other thing on this while on the topic, while I may be mistaken, was it you who replied to Dawn saying you had three large live aquarium plants?  If you grow any (rooted types) aquarium plants at all, you do not want sand as a substrate as it compacts to densely for proper root growth.  For this same reason, you wouldn't want it for a UGF as it wouldn't be able to draw water through this medium very well -- and much of it will get pulled down under the UGF plates making the filter extremely inefficient -- if it continued to work at all.
       
      Ray
       
      In a message dated 12/29/2014 1:20:02 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      I'm on my way to get the Malawai/Victoria Powder for my frog tank and I'm working on a response to your last email but real quick I wanted to ask you what you think of that sand that has the built-in bacteria.
      I wanted sand when we first put the tank up but with the UGF didn't know if it was ok and also I thought my frog would be in there and I feared they'd swallow it when grabbing food.
      Thanks!!

      Sent from my iPhone

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56332 From: sevenspringss Date: 12/29/2014
      Subject: Re: Aquarium Sand
      AOL Email
      Okay, my bad.  Now I remember. 
       
      Ray
       
       
       
      In a message dated 12/29/2014 1:43:33 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      No that wasn't me that had the three light plants that was the guy that was asking a question think he had male guppies or something

      Sent from my iPhone

      On Dec 29, 2014, at 1:33 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Peg,
       
      As far as I know, the only "live" sand in the aquarium trade is for there marine environment.  I've never heard of sand for the freshwater aquarium containing live nitrifying bacteria, as being packaged and sold.  One other thing on this while on the topic, while I may be mistaken, was it you who replied to Dawn saying you had three large live aquarium plants?  If you grow any (rooted types) aquarium plants at all, you do not want sand as a substrate as it compacts to densely for proper root growth.  For this same reason, you wouldn't want it for a UGF as it wouldn't be able to draw water through this medium very well -- and much of it will get pulled down under the UGF plates making the filter extremely inefficient -- if it continued to work at all.
       
      Ray
       
      In a message dated 12/29/2014 1:20:02 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      I'm on my way to get the Malawai/Victoria Powder for my frog tank and I'm working on a response to your last email but real quick I wanted to ask you what you think of that sand that has the built-in bacteria.
      I wanted sand when we first put the tank up but with the UGF didn't know if it was ok and also I thought my frog would be in there and I feared they'd swallow it when grabbing food.
      Thanks!!

      Sent from my iPhone

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56333 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 12/29/2014
      Subject: Re: Aquarium Sand
      No that wasn't me that had the live plants I believe that was a guy that had originally started asking questions about guppies.

      That underground filter is going to come out today when I do the PWC and remove a portion of the gravel. I'm  going to go ahead and yank it because it's not long enough for the tank and is positioned in the middle most part of the tank which will affect the Fluval. 

      Sand I'm talking about is the Carib-sea and it says it's purifying sand that has bacteria beneficial bacteria that boosts the cycle process. 


      Sent from my iPhone

      On Dec 29, 2014, at 1:33 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Peg,
       
      As far as I know, the only "live" sand in the aquarium trade is for there marine environment.  I've never heard of sand for the freshwater aquarium containing live nitrifying bacteria, as being packaged and sold.  One other thing on this while on the topic, while I may be mistaken, was it you who replied to Dawn saying you had three large live aquarium plants?  If you grow any (rooted types) aquarium plants at all, you do not want sand as a substrate as it compacts to densely for proper root growth.  For this same reason, you wouldn't want it for a UGF as it wouldn't be able to draw water through this medium very well -- and much of it will get pulled down under the UGF plates making the filter extremely inefficient -- if it continued to work at all.
       
      Ray
       
      In a message dated 12/29/2014 1:20:02 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      I'm on my way to get the Malawai/Victoria Powder for my frog tank and I'm working on a response to your last email but real quick I wanted to ask you what you think of that sand that has the built-in bacteria.
      I wanted sand when we first put the tank up but with the UGF didn't know if it was ok and also I thought my frog would be in there and I feared they'd swallow it when grabbing food.
      Thanks!!

      Sent from my iPhone

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56334 From: sevenspringss Date: 12/29/2014
      Subject: Re: Aquarium Sand
      AOL Email
      I'm not familiar with all the products CaribSea offers, but in doing a Google search I'm able to see what you mean, and that these substrates are made for fresh water.  I don't want to say it won't work, although I'm skeptical.  I really don't know enough about these products however, as they don't state which species -- nor even what genera -- these bacteria are, and they don't describe them as nitrifying bacteria, only as "living, water-purifying bacteria."  Nitrifying bacteria need oxygen to survive and the fine grain substrates they offer are just too compact to allow anything more than a stationary film of water between the granules.  Not enough to carry nearly enough oxygen to last on a store's shelf for any period of time.  It's possible they somehow out the bacteria in a state of semi-hibernation, but this is unclear. 
       
      I guess you could try it if you want; it may be surprisingly good.  It's still possible that it could contain anaerobic heterotrophic bacteria (not to confuse you), but these are not nitrifying bacteria.  They'll act in breaking down organic solids (like fish food) more rapidly, into ammonia, to give nitrifying bacteria food to grow on.  In effect, this would help speed up the cycle, but not by much.  Not even knowing if this is what this sand contains, I can't advise you on it one way or another.  Besides, you already have tons of hetrotrophic bacteria in your tank.  Might be worth giving CaribSea a call to find out just which genera these species are, and for them to explain -- if they turn out to be nitrifiers -- just how these (autotrophic) aerobic bacteria can survive for any length of time in complete anaerobic conditions.  We're looking for genera such as Nitrosomonas and Nitrospira for converting ammonia into nitrite, and Nitrobacter and Nitrospina for converting nitrite into nitrate.  There could be other closely-related genera involved, but these are typical examples.   
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 12/29/2014 3:54:35 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      No that wasn't me that had the live plants I believe that was a guy that had originally started asking questions about guppies.

      That underground filter is going to come out today when I do the PWC and remove a portion of the gravel. I'm  going to go ahead and yank it because it's not long enough for the tank and is positioned in the middle most part of the tank which will affect the Fluval. 

      Sand I'm talking about is the Carib-sea and it says it's purifying sand that has bacteria beneficial bacteria that boosts the cycle process. 


      Sent from my iPhone

      On Dec 29, 2014, at 1:33 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Peg,
       
      As far as I know, the only "live" sand in the aquarium trade is for there marine environment.  I've never heard of sand for the freshwater aquarium containing live nitrifying bacteria, as being packaged and sold.  One other thing on this while on the topic, while I may be mistaken, was it you who replied to Dawn saying you had three large live aquarium plants?  If you grow any (rooted types) aquarium plants at all, you do not want sand as a substrate as it compacts to densely for proper root growth.  For this same reason, you wouldn't want it for a UGF as it wouldn't be able to draw water through this medium very well -- and much of it will get pulled down under the UGF plates making the filter extremely inefficient -- if it continued to work at all.
       
      Ray
       
      In a message dated 12/29/2014 1:20:02 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      I'm on my way to get the Malawai/Victoria Powder for my frog tank and I'm working on a response to your last email but real quick I wanted to ask you what you think of that sand that has the built-in bacteria.
      I wanted sand when we first put the tank up but with the UGF didn't know if it was ok and also I thought my frog would be in there and I feared they'd swallow it when grabbing food.
      Thanks!!

      Sent from my iPhone

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56335 From: Harry Leverett Date: 12/29/2014
      Subject: Re: Aquarium Sand
      I've seen it on the market , but the price kind of put me off. I've always read pool filter sand is the way to go but haven't tried it yet in Chiclid tank

      Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID


      "sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      I'm not familiar with all the products CaribSea offers, but in doing a Google search I'm able to see what you mean, and that these substrates are made for fresh water.  I don't want to say it won't work, although I'm skeptical.  I really don't know enough about these products however, as they don't state which species -- nor even what genera -- these bacteria are, and they don't describe them as nitrifying bacteria, only as "living, water-purifying bacteria."  Nitrifying bacteria need oxygen to survive and the fine grain substrates they offer are just too compact to allow anything more than a stationary film of water between the granules.  Not enough to carry nearly enough oxygen to last on a store's shelf for any period of time.  It's possible they somehow out the bacteria in a state of semi-hibernation, but this is unclear. 
       
      I guess you could try it if you want; it may be surprisingly good.  It's still possible that it could contain anaerobic heterotrophic bacteria (not to confuse you), but these are not nitrifying bacteria.  They'll act in breaking down organic solids (like fish food) more rapidly, into ammonia, to give nitrifying bacteria food to grow on.  In effect, this would help speed up the cycle, but not by much.  Not even knowing if this is what this sand contains, I can't advise you on it one way or another.  Besides, you already have tons of hetrotrophic bacteria in your tank.  Might be worth giving CaribSea a call to find out just which genera these species are, and for them to explain -- if they turn out to be nitrifiers -- just how these (autotrophic) aerobic bacteria can survive for any length of time in complete anaerobic conditions.  We're looking for genera such as Nitrosomonas and Nitrospira for converting ammonia into nitrite, and Nitrobacter and Nitrospina for converting nitrite into nitrate.  There could be other closely-related genera involved, but these are typical examples.   
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 12/29/2014 3:54:35 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      No that wasn't me that had the live plants I believe that was a guy that had originally started asking questions about guppies.

      That underground filter is going to come out today when I do the PWC and remove a portion of the gravel. I'm  going to go ahead and yank it because it's not long enough for the tank and is positioned in the middle most part of the tank which will affect the Fluval. 

      Sand I'm talking about is the Carib-sea and it says it's purifying sand that has bacteria beneficial bacteria that boosts the cycle process. 


      Sent from my iPhone

      On Dec 29, 2014, at 1:33 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Peg,
       
      As far as I know, the only "live" sand in the aquarium trade is for there marine environment.  I've never heard of sand for the freshwater aquarium containing live nitrifying bacteria, as being packaged and sold.  One other thing on this while on the topic, while I may be mistaken, was it you who replied to Dawn saying you had three large live aquarium plants?  If you grow any (rooted types) aquarium plants at all, you do not want sand as a substrate as it compacts to densely for proper root growth.  For this same reason, you wouldn't want it for a UGF as it wouldn't be able to draw water through this medium very well -- and much of it will get pulled down under the UGF plates making the filter extremely inefficient -- if it continued to work at all.
       
      Ray
       
      In a message dated 12/29/2014 1:20:02 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      I'm on my way to get the Malawai/Victoria Powder for my frog tank and I'm working on a response to your last email but real quick I wanted to ask you what you think of that sand that has the built-in bacteria.
      I wanted sand when we first put the tank up but with the UGF didn't know if it was ok and also I thought my frog would be in there and I feared they'd swallow it when grabbing food.
      Thanks!!

      Sent from my iPhone

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56336 From: Donna Ransome Date: 12/29/2014
      Subject: Re: Aquarium Sand
      IME cycling shortcuts are ineffective (except Dr. Tim’s One and Only product which is refrigerated). I use pool filter sand for my cichlids (8 tanks) but it does not help with cycling. Fishless using ammonia is my preference.



      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: Monday, December 29, 2014 5:14 PM
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Aquarium Sand





      I've seen it on the market , but the price kind of put me off. I've always read pool filter sand is the way to go but haven't tried it yet in Chiclid tank



      Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID



      "sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:




      I'm not familiar with all the products CaribSea offers, but in doing a Google search I'm able to see what you mean, and that these substrates are made for fresh water. I don't want to say it won't work, although I'm skeptical. I really don't know enough about these products however, as they don't state which species -- nor even what genera -- these bacteria are, and they don't describe them as nitrifying bacteria, only as "living, water-purifying bacteria." Nitrifying bacteria need oxygen to survive and the fine grain substrates they offer are just too compact to allow anything more than a stationary film of water between the granules. Not enough to carry nearly enough oxygen to last on a store's shelf for any period of time. It's possible they somehow out the bacteria in a state of semi-hibernation, but this is unclear.



      I guess you could try it if you want; it may be surprisingly good. It's still possible that it could contain anaerobic heterotrophic bacteria (not to confuse you), but these are not nitrifying bacteria. They'll act in breaking down organic solids (like fish food) more rapidly, into ammonia, to give nitrifying bacteria food to grow on. In effect, this would help speed up the cycle, but not by much. Not even knowing if this is what this sand contains, I can't advise you on it one way or another. Besides, you already have tons of hetrotrophic bacteria in your tank. Might be worth giving CaribSea a call to find out just which genera these species are, and for them to explain -- if they turn out to be nitrifiers -- just how these (autotrophic) aerobic bacteria can survive for any length of time in complete anaerobic conditions. We're looking for genera such as Nitrosomonas and Nitrospira for converting ammonia into nitrite, and Nitrobacter and Nitrospina for converting nitrite into nitrate. There could be other closely-related genera involved, but these are typical examples.



      Ray





      In a message dated 12/29/2014 3:54:35 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:



      No that wasn't me that had the live plants I believe that was a guy that had originally started asking questions about guppies.



      That underground filter is going to come out today when I do the PWC and remove a portion of the gravel. I'm going to go ahead and yank it because it's not long enough for the tank and is positioned in the middle most part of the tank which will affect the Fluval.



      Sand I'm talking about is the Carib-sea and it says it's purifying sand that has bacteria beneficial bacteria that boosts the cycle process.




      Sent from my iPhone


      On Dec 29, 2014, at 1:33 PM, sevenspringss1@... <mailto:sevenspringss1@...> [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > wrote:




      Peg,



      As far as I know, the only "live" sand in the aquarium trade is for there marine environment. I've never heard of sand for the freshwater aquarium containing live nitrifying bacteria, as being packaged and sold. One other thing on this while on the topic, while I may be mistaken, was it you who replied to Dawn saying you had three large live aquarium plants? If you grow any (rooted types) aquarium plants at all, you do not want sand as a substrate as it compacts to densely for proper root growth. For this same reason, you wouldn't want it for a UGF as it wouldn't be able to draw water through this medium very well -- and much of it will get pulled down under the UGF plates making the filter extremely inefficient -- if it continued to work at all.



      Ray

      .



      In a message dated 12/29/2014 1:20:02 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> writes:



      I'm on my way to get the Malawai/Victoria Powder for my frog tank and I'm working on a response to your last email but real quick I wanted to ask you what you think of that sand that has the built-in bacteria.
      I wanted sand when we first put the tank up but with the UGF didn't know if it was ok and also I thought my frog would be in there and I feared they'd swallow it when grabbing food.
      Thanks!!

      Sent from my iPhone





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56337 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 12/29/2014
      Subject: pH & High Range pH
      Hi Ray,

        Something you mentioned to Peg about pH tests made me wonder-I always though the regular pH only went up to 7.6 & it wouldn't register anything above that no matter how high so for general fish keeping such as Ornamental Carps in the range above 7.6 it is really useless although I understand it has some specialised uses within the hobby. For that reason I always use High Range pH to get a true reading for my tank. Could you [or anyone else] please clarify this?

       John<o)))<
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56338 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 12/29/2014
      Subject: Re: Aquarium Sand
      I was kind of put off by the price too. Almost $6 a back and I needed about 10.  This aquarium is a money pit.  Just keep sinking more and more into it!! I might have to sell my youngest to support my interest. Just kidding!!

      Seems sand would be nice because crap doesn't get down under it thru holes in the substrate like what's seen with pebbles. Someday maybe I can change it over but for now I'm gonna work with the pebbles 

      Sent from my iPhone

      On Dec 29, 2014, at 5:20 PM, Donna Ransome djransome@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      IME cycling shortcuts are ineffective (except Dr. Tim’s One and Only product which is refrigerated). I use pool filter sand for my cichlids (8 tanks) but it does not help with cycling. Fishless using ammonia is my preference.

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: Monday, December 29, 2014 5:14 PM
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Aquarium Sand

      I've seen it on the market , but the price kind of put me off. I've always read pool filter sand is the way to go but haven't tried it yet in Chiclid tank

      Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID

      "sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

      I'm not familiar with all the products CaribSea offers, but in doing a Google search I'm able to see what you mean, and that these substrates are made for fresh water. I don't want to say it won't work, although I'm skeptical. I really don't know enough about these products however, as they don't state which species -- nor even what genera -- these bacteria are, and they don't describe them as nitrifying bacteria, only as "living, water-purifying bacteria." Nitrifying bacteria need oxygen to survive and the fine grain substrates they offer are just too compact to allow anything more than a stationary film of water between the granules. Not enough to carry nearly enough oxygen to last on a store's shelf for any period of time. It's possible they somehow out the bacteria in a state of semi-hibernation, but this is unclear.

      I guess you could try it if you want; it may be surprisingly good. It's still possible that it could contain anaerobic heterotrophic bacteria (not to confuse you), but these are not nitrifying bacteria. They'll act in breaking down organic solids (like fish food) more rapidly, into ammonia, to give nitrifying bacteria food to grow on. In effect, this would help speed up the cycle, but not by much. Not even knowing if this is what this sand contains, I can't advise you on it one way or another. Besides, you already have tons of hetrotrophic bacteria in your tank. Might be worth giving CaribSea a call to find out just which genera these species are, and for them to explain -- if they turn out to be nitrifiers -- just how these (autotrophic) aerobic bacteria can survive for any length of time in complete anaerobic conditions. We're looking for genera such as Nitrosomonas and Nitrospira for converting ammonia into nitrite, and Nitrobacter and Nitrospina for converting nitrite into nitrate. There could be other closely-related genera involved, but these are typical examples.

      Ray

      In a message dated 12/29/2014 3:54:35 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

      No that wasn't me that had the live plants I believe that was a guy that had originally started asking questions about guppies.

      That underground filter is going to come out today when I do the PWC and remove a portion of the gravel. I'm going to go ahead and yank it because it's not long enough for the tank and is positioned in the middle most part of the tank which will affect the Fluval.

      Sand I'm talking about is the Carib-sea and it says it's purifying sand that has bacteria beneficial bacteria that boosts the cycle process.

      Sent from my iPhone

      On Dec 29, 2014, at 1:33 PM, sevenspringss1@... <mailto:sevenspringss1@...> [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > wrote:

      Peg,

      As far as I know, the only "live" sand in the aquarium trade is for there marine environment. I've never heard of sand for the freshwater aquarium containing live nitrifying bacteria, as being packaged and sold. One other thing on this while on the topic, while I may be mistaken, was it you who replied to Dawn saying you had three large live aquarium plants? If you grow any (rooted types) aquarium plants at all, you do not want sand as a substrate as it compacts to densely for proper root growth. For this same reason, you wouldn't want it for a UGF as it wouldn't be able to draw water through this medium very well -- and much of it will get pulled down under the UGF plates making the filter extremely inefficient -- if it continued to work at all.

      Ray

      .

      In a message dated 12/29/2014 1:20:02 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> writes:

      I'm on my way to get the Malawai/Victoria Powder for my frog tank and I'm working on a response to your last email but real quick I wanted to ask you what you think of that sand that has the built-in bacteria.
      I wanted sand when we first put the tank up but with the UGF didn't know if it was ok and also I thought my frog would be in there and I feared they'd swallow it when grabbing food.
      Thanks!!

      Sent from my iPhone

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56339 From: sevenspringss Date: 12/29/2014
      Subject: Re: pH & High Range pH
      AOL Email
      Hi John,
       
      You're doing the right thing by using a High Range pH test kit, as you need to know exactly how high your pH is for your Goldfish -- since they're not very tolerant of too high of a pH.  When I was managing Waterford Gardens some 8 or 10 years back (I'm completely retired now), we regularly performed water parameter tests as a service for our customers, and while their pond fish still did fine up to about pH 8.4 or even up to 8.6, they failed (were too stressed) when the pH got up to 9.1 -- which it occasionally did with some customers' water.  Even at this pH 8.6 border, the water cannot contain the slightest amount of ammonia as free ammonia would be released in too large of amounts.  With 10,000 gallon ponds, adding Prime to it every day to render any ammonia present as non-toxic is not an option.  Bio-filtration systems must be at their peak at all times.  Only the heartiest of Goldfish could do well at pH 8.6, while being maintained in water only completely void of all ammonia as an absolute constant. 
       
      For my own purposes, I use regular pH test kits for a pH as high as 7.8, even though there's no color match for it on the chart.  After being used to reading these shades of blue for some time, a darker hue of blue can be noticed above pH 7.6 at times, to an amount of difference similar to that between pH 7.4 and 7.6 or between pH 7.2 and 7.4.  When it gets any slight amount darker than this amount of difference it becomes inaccurate to surmise, which is where only a High pH test kit must be used.  Still, at best it's an educated guess when trying to read a pH level that high with a regular test kit, but it serves my purpose knowing its limits.
       
      I would like to point out though, that even though a regular pH test and a High Range pH test may show a slight difference in their results, since the specific pH of any water is at a certain level, this slight difference in results between the two different tests still have a correlation with each other and the value seen by one test kit in comparison to the other should always remain the same without any wider difference in this slight variation -- provided the pH is still within the range of both kits.  Why the test results may vary at all from regular to high kits is beyond me though, but as the overlap of the regular pH test kit vs the high pH test kit in only within a minimal pH 0.2 range (from 7.4 to 7.6) for the accuracy of either kits' extent, it serves absolutely no purpose to use either pH kit when the water's actual pH is out of their range.  A water sample testing at pH 6.8 with the regular pH test kit can never show a test result below pH 7.4 with a high range test kit (that's its low limit).  
       
      Ray
       
      In a message dated 12/29/2014 6:55:05 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hi Ray,

        Something you mentioned to Peg about pH tests made me wonder-I always though the regular pH only went up to 7.6 & it wouldn't register anything above that no matter how high so for general fish keeping such as Ornamental Carps in the range above 7.6 it is really useless although I understand it has some specialised uses within the hobby. For that reason I always use High Range pH to get a true reading for my tank. Could you [or anyone else] please clarify this?

       John<o)))<

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56340 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 12/30/2014
      Subject: Re: Questions on re-establishing tank
      Hey there!! 
      I finally rec'd the Seachem Ammonia Testing Kit. I tested the Aquarium water and also my tap. Both free and total ammonia tests show 0 ammonia.  The Aquarium tested with free ammonia 0, total ammonia was deep purple, darker than the darkest blue on the color strip. Have you ever seen anything like that??

      I guess the aquarium count is a moot point now because last night I started removing the UGF and vacuuming all the substrate. By the time I had done a thorough cleaning about 95% of the water was gone. 
      I had to refill the tank with the garden hose and being in Ohio, that water was COLD!! I still had to put the Fluval together so I let it sit for awhile. Was hoping it would warm up a little bit at least. My tank is a Marineland 55 gal with the middle brace. The lid has those cut-out spaces on each side for filters etc....the right side is filled with the Penguin 350 and then on the left I had that whisper that would share space with Fluval. It was crowded and looked it so I pulled the a Whisper out and put the Fluval in the space. Taking the Whisper down gave me opportunity to space the Fluval tubes apart and it all looks nice and neat. 

      Although I vacuumed the gravel really well I didn't add water and rinse it. I was trying not to destroy ALL the bacteria. I also left all 4 filters and both bio-wheels in the Penguin without rinsing them. After I had filled the tank with about 6-8 inches of water I stirred the gravel up to see if there were still going to be a lot of debris or any fuzzles floating around and there weren't. It looked good. I was glad because I really didn't want ti rinse all the gravel if I didn't have to. 

      The only fish I had left were the two that were in the emergency tank I set up. I didn't have filter media to maintain that tank so I knew I needed to move them.  Today the tank was up to temp so I treated with Prime them added a  full bottle of Safe Start (I didn't know until tonight that Amazon carried Dr.Tims or I would've ordered - going to order this week to keep on on hand). Two hours later I moved the Angels over to the 55 gal. So far, so good. 

      Early this evening I tested the tank water. This is what I came up with:  PH 7.6,  HPH 8, Ammonia 1, Nitrites 0, Nitrates 5, GH 8, KH 6.  Do you think maybe the stuff left in the gravel along with what was in the Penguins filter media are enough to maybe take this forward in the cycle? 

      Peg
      Soon Opening: Hoopin' It Up Designs
                                Custom Embroidery & Embellishments

      On Dec 29, 2014, at 1:10 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.comwrote:

       

      Hi Peg,
       
      Yes, the holidays are just fine and now with New Year's Day coming up, it will just serve to extend them for another half a week.  Enjoy them while you can.  Yes, sooner or later things will normalize.
       
      Rehoming your remaining fish should make things much easier from here on in.   I'm eager to see what your ammonia tests out to be when you Seachem kit arrives.  Typically, and unless your water supplier  gives you super chloraminated water, most water companies use a concentration of around 4 ppm chloramine in their drinking water.  As the chlorine and the ammonia combine at a ratio of 7.6 to 1, you probably have about 0.5 ppm of ammonia in your tap water, but apparently nothing excessive above that.  Good to see that your ammonia test results are coming up minimal (zero?).  One thing I notice is that the high pH test resuolt of your tap water is pH 7.4 -- and you high pH test result of your aquarium water is exactly the same -- yet your low pH tests of these two different water shows a difference of pH 0.8.  I'm not understanding this at all.  While each test kit tests in a different range, they both should show a direct relationship to each other.  There should be no large difference in one test if the other test remains stable.  Maybe (hopefully) Dawn can join us to figure this one out as maybe I'm missing something, or else maybe there been an error in reading the tests.
       
      While the test colors for the nitrite may be "close" to either 2.0 ppm or 5.0 ppm, there's a huge difference in toxicity if fish were still involved.  Now, with you nitrate previously testing out at 20 ppm even through several PWC's you've made, only to test at 10.0 ppm now, does not seem possible since there's more nitrite available now to be converted into nitrate.  Have you made another large PWC just prior to testing for nitrate? 
       
      Without having any fish in the tank now, rest assured that you don't need to make those PWC's to keep the organic waste parameters down.  You will need to monitor them, to maintain the ammonia at a minimum level of about 3.0 ppm, but you no longer need to be concerned much about it being up at 8.0 ppm -- unless it tends to remain there (which I suspect it may, due to possible excess organic matter in the water).  But, if all starts to go well, as more (if more) ammonia is being converted, you'll need to add a small amount of clear (not sudsy) household ammonia to the tank to keep the level up at 3.0 ppm.  This is done by daily additions of household ammonia of from 3 to 4 drops per gallon to maintain this level constantly, until you see that this same addition of ammonia every day results in a zero reading the following day.  At that time, you'll know your tank is cycled.
       
      With the ammonia at 8.0 ppm, and with the level of debris as being able to be stirred up and making the water cloudy -- and exhibiting organic solids in the form of these "seeds/fuzz balls" -- this is waaay too much debris to have in any tank.  Yes, this is rotting food, and is where your high ammonia is coming from.  And yes, with this enlightenment, you do have a looong way to go, not necessarily in cycling the tank (as the higher ammonia should assist it), but just to make the tank livable for fish.  I wasn't aware there was this much debris.  Without fish in the tank though, this will make it easier (BTW, you can discontinue the Prime at this time when making smaller PWC's but do use it with the extra-large PWC's so as not to kill the bacteria). 
       
      With addressing this problem, and with your intention of removing the UGF, a thorough stirring of the entire gravel bed (as opposed to vacuuming the gravel) would be in the tank's best interest, followed immediately with a 60% PWC while most of the debris is still in suspension. You need to get as much debris out of this tank as possible -- and it can be done now that you know what's needed.  It would serve no purpose to dump all of the water as that would remove all of the ammonia (food for the bacteria), but you will probably need to stir the water up again to remove the remainder of the debris that settled, via another PWC -- as large as maintaining a 3.0 ppm ammonia level will allow -- or removing even more water but replacing the removed ammonia with the household type.  When you get ready to make this second PWC -- and there's not an immediate rush  to do so -- test the ammonia level and post it on here if you're not sure of how much water to change.  Using household ammonia to supplement the needed ammonia level is not hard to do, however.  You've got to get all of that debris out of there though as is sounds to be extremely excessive.
       
      Now as for the bio-wheel filters, while using another Marineland 350 in place of the Whisper would give you more media chambers, the bio-wheels themselves are by their very nature notoriously slower in becoming populated with nitrifying bacteria.  There's nothing wrong with your Whisper 40 filter at all, and HOB filters are quite efficient.  Getting right to one of your last questions in this message, yes certainly, established (with bacteria) filter media can be transplanted from one filter to another and often IS.  Only the different shapes of the different filters may cause some difficulty in doing this, but if that's the intent it can even be trimmed with a scissors to make it fit.  If it were me, I'd stick with the Whisper filter, since it's been up and running through all this time -- even if it was gunked up for some period.  The only thing different I might have done would have been to use a Hagen AquaClear HOB (Hang-On-Back) filter from the start as it's about the best of this design, but this outside HOB filter concept is still one of the best by any manufacturer.
       
      As for your last question, while I have no actual experience with Safe Start Plus -- and I always prefer to base my recommendations and suggestions on personal experience -- from all I've read on it, it seems to be a viable additive capable of supplying nitrifying bacteria.  I've already suggested the additive that I'd use, that being Dr. Tim's One and Only, which Dawn doesn't approve of quite as well as the Bio product she prefers.  
       
      Ray 
             
       
      In a message dated 12/28/2014 10:58:38 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hi!! I hope you had a nice holiday! I have to admit that I'll be glad after New Years when life can get back to normal! 

      I caught a chance to re-home the rest of my fish and not knowing what direction we were going with the tank, I took it. A friend was able to adopt all with the exception of the 2 medium Angels. I set up my 5 gallon and have moved them in there temporarily. The plan is that they won't be there past tomorrow. 

      I haven't received my Seachem Ammonia test kit. I guess the delivery was delayed due to the holiday but I'm hoping it'll be here tomorrow.  I did test our tap water and the numbers were: PH 7.6, High PH 7.4, Ammonia 0, GH 8, KH 6
      The tank has been running empty since the night of the 26th so today I tested everything to see where it stands. Currently PH 6.8, high PH 7.4, ammonia 8, nitrites either 2 or 5 - the color was so close I couldn't pinpoint it, nitrates 10, GH 10, KH 2

      I guess I feel like we've got way too much debris because when stirring up the rocks it becomes cloudy and then we see these little fuzz balls that look like they have a seed in the center. For some reason I believe these to be the excess food that's rotten or moldy??  

      I re-read your post and see that the rise of nitrites means more of the ammonia is being converted. Even with that it still seems like we have a long way to go. And I worry that the nitrites/nitrates will never catch up. 

      I definitely want to get the UGF out of the tank. No don't want it to interrupt the Fluval. Removing it leaves us with the Marineland bio-wheel 350 and the whisper to work with the Fluval. I had ordered another Marineland 350 which I thought was going to be used on the frog tank but it was too big. I was sending it back to Amazon but they don't want to deal with the return so they told me to me to keep it, along with a full box of filters. 
       I was wondering if we could pull the UGF, vacuum all up under the gravel and then swap out the whisper for the new 350? That would give me those 2-350's and the Fluval 206. Do you think that would blow the fish around too much? I don't have a lot of confidence that the whisper for some reason. I'm new & all I know now is what I'm taught and then there is what I read, which may or may not be true.  I don't see the whisper referenced a lot or as talked up a lot. This causes me to doubt it's capability I guess. I have a chance to choose between the extra 350 and the whisper. If it were you, which would you consider to be a better pick. I know the whisper has filters that have been working and have that good bacteria in them. The new 350 would have 4 filter slots filled with new media. I wondered, could we switch and use the 2-350's? Is it possible to pull 1 set of filters from the current 350 and transplant them to the new one? The other two slots in each of the 350's would then get new media? Can you do that, transplant the filter media to a new filter so it's not so "new?" If possible, would spreading out the media, cleaning up the debris drawn under the UGF, doing a water change - either full or a percentage and adding the Fluval allow me to put some fish in and eventually get thru a full cycle?  

      When I started out it was for the African Dwarf Frogs. I only had a 5 gal tank for awhile and several times I had to dump the water, change the filters and start over. The frogs were over crowded and over fed so that tank never cycled. It was frustrating. They're now in a 10 gallon and I'm working to get thru a cycle. I feel like I'm finally getting somewhere. 

      The excessive ammonia I believe is from a combination of too many fish too early and over feeding. I know we were giving them the sinking pellets, flake food, algae wafers, mini-bites and bottom feeders food. And to make matters worse, they were getting it several times a day per the instructions on the containers. 
       
      If dumping part or all of the water would you suggest adding a bottle of Safe Start Plus after the fish get back in! Any other additives you'd suggest? 

      Thanks, 
      Peg


      On Dec 26, 2014, at 11:51 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Hi Peg,
       
      As long as you're still doing the PWC's as your test results show are needed, there's no problem with not getting back here to report the numbers.  You should by now know how to proceed just by the recommendations I've given.  You haven't replied on whether you've tested your tap water for its possible ammonia content or its pH level, however.  When you do make these PWC's, I hope you're adding back 1 TSP of salt for every 50% PWC you make.  Otherwise, as for the numbers still remaining high, you of course don't have a full cycle but with you're test results showing you have levels of ammonia, nitrite and nitrate, this indicates that both types of nitrifying bacteria are present and increasing.  To better understand why there's little reduction in your numbers (the first two numbers -- ammonia and nitrite) to date, the ammonia level will only decrease of its own accord as you see the nitrite level being harder to maintain at the .25 ppm level you reported several days ago.  I realize that the necessary PWC's will make it impossible to get the true high readings of these two numbers, but then these numbers can't be allowed to increase substantially, especially the nitrite -- but only if the same amount of water being changed has less of an effect on keeping the nitrite from climbing, will this number show that the ammonia level should really be decreasing at this time (even though it's still tending to be above 4 ppm).  I hope this makes sense.  BTW, any change in the ammonia number with the new Seachem test kit? 
       
      Unless more nitrite is being produced, to indicate that more ammonia is being converted into that -- as should be started to show in your nitrite test results by now -- your nitrifying type of bacteria that breaks down your ammonia into nitrite are still far from being sufficiently populated in all three of your present filtration systems.  Along these same lines, any increase in your nitrate level will show that the type of nitrifying bacteria that convert your nitrite into nitrate are on the increase, which in turn will indicate that they are starting to be well fed (with converted ammonia), showing that the ammonia-converting bacteria are on the increase.  This end product's (nitrate's) level will tend to show an overall picture of the cycle's progress, but the nitrate level doesn't increase at quite as fast of a rate of speed as does the previous two products so you won't see a dramatic rise in it.  Any rise in the nitrate at all will show the advancement in your cycle though -- OR, especially even its (the nitrate's) stabilization at no lower level than the previous 20 ppm being maintained while you're removing much of it at this time with your PWC's.  Again, let me know if you have any questions on this.
       
      Getting back to increases in the ammonia, even while the ammonia-converting nitrifying bacteria may be increasing substantially in numbers, if more than the normal amount of ammonia is being added to the aquarium (in addition to the fishes' waste) by excess food from overfeeding and/or from excess food and fish waste having infiltrated the substrate (and food & waste not being kept from accumulating in the filters), the ammonia can only increase as no amount of nitrifying bacteria can keep it from rising under such circumstances.  Only by feeding prudently and by keeping the filters cleared of excess debris (but not excessively cleaned to the point of compromising the bacteria populations) can the ammonia be kept in check -- and this goes for keeping the substrate prudently vacuumed as well while alternating from side to side as a way to preserve those bacteria in the gravel.  New ammonia being added to the tank via the tap water will only serve to add to this parameter's number as well, if much is present in that source.
       
      As for a tank "needing" some detritus, this debris will help in establishing the nitrifying bacteria in your filters since they're already growing on this matter, and while a fastidiously-maintained tank will not have the benefit of detritus to help populate the filters from these bacteria populations, ideally this debris should be kept at a very minimum (if at all) and the source of food (ammonia) for the nitrifying bacteria should primarily be from the fish themselves.  This source of ammonia will be constant and at a level that the nitrifying bacteria will in time multiply to in the filters in numbers to oxidize all of it each day.  One other thing I need to stress while on this topic -- After hooking up the Fluval, it can't be expected to establish nitrifying bacteria populations over night.  A cycle will normally take close to and most often up to 6 weeks before becoming fully established -- and that's with fishless cycling where PWC's are not needed to keep the numbers down.  With the PWC's needed to be made to prevent undo stress on the fish, it can be expected to take at least as long.  To have ANY fish in the tank before a cycle was established was where you "shot yourself in the foot," but we now need to go forward under these conditions now.  Getting right back to the detritus, please elaborate on your feeling that you have too much as I don't have a complete picture of this statement.  Exactly where is it and how much is there, and in what form?           
       
      Now, on the UGF plates, the riser tubes should always be positioned so that they're nearest the corners of the tank.  From what I'm understanding from your description, as the two plates aren't as long as the tank when they were set in, you butted them at the center of the tank leaving space towards the ends of the tank.  While this still wouldn't adversely impact their action that much, that they're now in this position will interfere with the Fluval's intake, as I understand you to say.  The only alternative (besides removing the UGF plates completely) would be to temporarily remove some gravel at each end of the tank and reposition the plates towards the ends of the tank -- if it's seen that this will help.  The Fluval should not be operated in any way where it could draw in air, as it appears you're already aware of.  Actually, when I asked about the method of your UGF's operation, not knowing how your's operated I was about to suggest you install powerheads on top of the riser tubes which would make for more efficient UGF's.  This may also eliminate the air issue in interfering with the Fluval.  Or, you may choose to remove the plates entirely, but then I feel a thorough cleaning of the gravel should be done to remove any partially converted waste that has been drawn down into it by the UGF's action.
       
      Getting right to the bioload you have at present and its impact/association on a cycle, it's well below the maximum stocking capacity for this size tank and for this very reason alone, the amount (and size) of the fishes you outlined along with proper feeding should not prevent a successfully established cycle.  The smaller the amount of fish though, the easier it will always be in getting a tank cycled.  I would like to add however, that I believe the excessively high ammonia level is not only the result of these fishes' waste but something in your tank's workings that I can't see from here, resulting from other organic matter in its system contributing to it.  While I can't be completely certain on that, not being able to actually see your tank, a constant level of 8 ppm ammonia with 50% PWC's would seem much more than these fishes can produce in waste.  Perhaps Dawn may be able to comment on this also. 
       
      Ray     
       
       
      In a message dated 12/26/2014 9:11:40 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hi Ray! I haven't sent numbers for a few days because it's been so crazy hectic here and the holidays
      just compounded the issues.

      My husband and I are planning on hooking up the Fluval 206 tomorrow and softer reading about installation I've got concerns on my current tank set-up. When we set the tank up the under gravel filter was installed. The plates weren't long enough for the tank so we set it centered in the tank. (You asked if it was the type with the air stone and bubbles and yea, it is). The Fluval instructions show setting up the intake/output centered in the tank and shouldn't be near any air devices so now I fear setting it up with the UGF in place would disrupt the Fluval performance.

      I also have had concerns with the detritus from over feeding and over stocking. We talked and you explained that the tank needed some detritus. I understand "some" but I feel we have too much. Given we didn't understand how much to feed and how many living things should be there, I know we only shot ourselves in the foot.

      The testing numbers still aren't changing and ammonia continues to be too high so I wonder if we'll ever really have a cycle at this rate. It's very discouraging but I've got too much money invested now to just quit. If we were to completely start over adding only the fish we have now and NOT over feeding do you think we have too many fish to start (2 med Angels, 2 mystery snails, 5 neon tetras and 3 panda Cory cats) and be successful?

      All the advice I rec'd from pet shop people was bad so I'd like to do this the smart way.
      Your thoughts?

      Sent from my iPhone

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56341 From: sevenspringss Date: 12/30/2014
      Subject: Re: Questions on re-establishing tank
      AOL Email
      Peg,
       
      To begin with, even though you didn't have the Fluval together yet after you filled the tank, should I assume that you started the Penguin 350 filter?  One other thing, getting right to the gravel, the nitrifiers reside only on the top surface and down to a depth of less than 1/2".  They can't live in anaerobic conditions any deeper than this, so they're not found throughout the gravel.  When you removed the UGF, and when you did the thorough vacuuming of it, you most likely would have mixed in the gravel's top layer with the bulk of the remaining gravel.  It would have been difficult to keep the top layer of gravel intact, as not mixing it with the rest.  At this point, there would be no further concern for not destroying all of the bacteria residing on top of the gravel as it would have ceased to exist when buried under the rest of it.
       
      Now, getting back to the Penguin 350, after you refilled the tank if you started the filter right away you would have subjected the nitrifiers in this filter and on its bio-wheels to extreme shock, depending on how cold this new water was.  It's quite likely that you decimated a good percentage of them.  I won't ask you why you chose to use the garden hose to refill the tank, but I will ask why you couldn't have used an in-house faucet with which you could have mixed in part of this water from the hot water faucet.  I'm still unsure if you have a Python yet or not, but that would have been the thing to use in place of the garden hose if you have one.  At the very least, just a few buckets of warmer water mixed in as the garden hose was filling the tank with COLD water would have helped in preserving your nitrifiers.
       
      While Nitrosomonas (Nitrosomas) can tolerate a temperature down to 35 o - 36 o, and while Nitrobacters can tolerate a temperature down to 38 o - 39 o, to subject them to a sudden temperature of even 45 o, is harsh on them.  Dr. Tim's One & Only supplement is recommended to be kept in the refrigerator -- and the average refrigerator is recommended to be kept at 39 o F, but this product's contents aren't plunged instantly to 39 o when placed in the fridge.  You may have little nitrifying bacteria left to continue the cycle from where it was, and may need to start from scratch.  Actually, Nitrosomonos thrive at their best at a temperature of approximately 86 o, and Nitrobacters thrive best at a temperature of approximately 89 o -- some reports even say slightly higher for each.  While they still do well at the 78 o -- 80 o temperatures where we need them, this may illustrate why a sudden drop to such COLD temperatures would be devastating to them. 
       
      Well at least you did a great job in getting rid of all the debris in the gravel -- which was sorely need to do.  As you no longer have fish in this tank, cycling it should be fairly straight-forward.  So, going to your water testing in your first paragraph here, I'm assuming that these ammonia tests were done before you even removed the UGF plates -- since you give other figures towards the end of your message, of the parameters of the new water.  If the pH of your old water was still down near pH 6.8, this fully explains why you had zero Free-Ammonia.  At this pH, all of it will be in the form of Ammonium -- your Total Ammonia will be 100% Ammonium.  That the test came up as showing a deep purple, shows that it was off your API test chart scale having an upper limit of 8.0 ppm, as I stated that I suspected.  No, I've never ever seen a level that high.
       
      I thought you may have decided on removing the Whisper filter, just by your enthusiasm for doing this when you posted last.  I'm not sure if you thought about saving whatever bacteria that had developed in it up to this point, which you could have now used to seed the Penguin 350.     
       
      Getting to your test results of the refilled tank, as your regular pH test kit only goes up to pH 7.6, and since you high pH test result is so much higher, your regular test result is useless as we know the pH is much higher than pH 7.6.  There's really no reason to even consider it.  We know your tank's pH is 8.0.  With your tap water testing at zero ammonia, and with your tank water now testing at 1.0 ppm -- AFTER making a 95% PWC -- this begins to show just how much ammonia had accumulated in your old water, if the 5% residual old water shows a level of 1.0 ppm after being diluted by a rate of 19 to 1 by the fresh water.  It's a bit surprising you have any nitrate, but this is obviously due to the small amount of old water left in the tank (unless your tap water contains some nitrate).  With zero nitrite again, this is to be expected having mostly all new water, although there's probably a trace of it left from the old water that's too small to test for.  Your two hardness (GH & KH) levels are really quite good.  Some would say they're just about ideal for average community tank fish.  Your KH isn't too low that it doesn't have at least moderate buffering capacity -- it does.
       
      So now, with 1.0 ppm of ammonia right now, you'll need to increase it to 3.0 ppm by adding 3 or 4 drops of clear household ammonia per gallon (not sudsy, as I've said before).  Monitor the ammonia level daily and add more ammonia as need to keep the level up at 3.0 ppm each day.  At first, you won't need to add much, if any, but as time goes by you'll need to add a bit more each day, until it reaches a point where you'll need to add the full 3 - 4 drops daily; the test will show zero ppm on these following days, showing that the bacteria are in sufficient amounts that they can handle this amount of ammonia given off from fish if you were to introduce them.  As your tank would be fully cycled at this point, this IS the time to add your fish and to stop adding any more ammonia.  You'll first need to do enough of a water change to remove the build up of nitrate, which should be brought down to at least 40 ppm, or preferably lower.  Right now, this is just the start and we'll guide you as the cycle progresses. 
       
      Ray 
       
       
       
      In a message dated 12/30/2014 11:10:10 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hey there!! 
      I finally rec'd the Seachem Ammonia Testing Kit. I tested the Aquarium water and also my tap. Both free and total ammonia tests show 0 ammonia.  The Aquarium tested with free ammonia 0, total ammonia was deep purple, darker than the darkest blue on the color strip. Have you ever seen anything like that??

      I guess the aquarium count is a moot point now because last night I started removing the UGF and vacuuming all the substrate. By the time I had done a thorough cleaning about 95% of the water was gone. 
      I had to refill the tank with the garden hose and being in Ohio, that water was COLD!! I still had to put the Fluval together so I let it sit for awhile. Was hoping it would warm up a little bit at least. My tank is a Marineland 55 gal with the middle brace. The lid has those cut-out spaces on each side for filters etc....the right side is filled with the Penguin 350 and then on the left I had that whisper that would share space with Fluval. It was crowded and looked it so I pulled the a Whisper out and put the Fluval in the space. Taking the Whisper down gave me opportunity to space the Fluval tubes apart and it all looks nice and neat. 

      Although I vacuumed the gravel really well I didn't add water and rinse it. I was trying not to destroy ALL the bacteria. I also left all 4 filters and both bio-wheels in the Penguin without rinsing them. After I had filled the tank with about 6-8 inches of water I stirred the gravel up to see if there were still going to be a lot of debris or any fuzzles floating around and there weren't. It looked good. I was glad because I really didn't want ti rinse all the gravel if I didn't have to. 

      The only fish I had left were the two that were in the emergency tank I set up. I didn't have filter media to maintain that tank so I knew I needed to move them.  Today the tank was up to temp so I treated with Prime them added a  full bottle of Safe Start (I didn't know until tonight that Amazon carried Dr.Tims or I would've ordered - going to order this week to keep on on hand). Two hours later I moved the Angels over to the 55 gal. So far, so good. 

      Early this evening I tested the tank water. This is what I came up with:  PH 7.6,  HPH 8, Ammonia 1, Nitrites 0, Nitrates 5, GH 8, KH 6.  Do you think maybe the stuff left in the gravel along with what was in the Penguins filter media are enough to maybe take this forward in the cycle? 

      Peg
      Soon Opening: Hoopin' It Up Designs
                                Custom Embroidery & Embellishments

      On Dec 29, 2014, at 1:10 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.comwrote:

       

      Hi Peg,
       
      Yes, the holidays are just fine and now with New Year's Day coming up, it will just serve to extend them for another half a week.  Enjoy them while you can.  Yes, sooner or later things will normalize.
       
      Rehoming your remaining fish should make things much easier from here on in.   I'm eager to see what your ammonia tests out to be when you Seachem kit arrives.  Typically, and unless your water supplier  gives you super chloraminated water, most water companies use a concentration of around 4 ppm chloramine in their drinking water.  As the chlorine and the ammonia combine at a ratio of 7.6 to 1, you probably have about 0.5 ppm of ammonia in your tap water, but apparently nothing excessive above that.  Good to see that your ammonia test results are coming up minimal (zero?).  One thing I notice is that the high pH test resuolt of your tap water is pH 7.4 -- and you high pH test result of your aquarium water is exactly the same -- yet your low pH tests of these two different water shows a difference of pH 0.8.  I'm not understanding this at all.  While each test kit tests in a different range, they both should show a direct relationship to each other.  There should be no large difference in one test if the other test remains stable.  Maybe (hopefully) Dawn can join us to figure this one out as maybe I'm missing something, or else maybe there been an error in reading the tests.
       
      While the test colors for the nitrite may be "close" to either 2.0 ppm or 5.0 ppm, there's a huge difference in toxicity if fish were still involved.  Now, with you nitrate previously testing out at 20 ppm even through several PWC's you've made, only to test at 10.0 ppm now, does not seem possible since there's more nitrite available now to be converted into nitrate.  Have you made another large PWC just prior to testing for nitrate? 
       
      Without having any fish in the tank now, rest assured that you don't need to make those PWC's to keep the organic waste parameters down.  You will need to monitor them, to maintain the ammonia at a minimum level of about 3.0 ppm, but you no longer need to be concerned much about it being up at 8.0 ppm -- unless it tends to remain there (which I suspect it may, due to possible excess organic matter in the water).  But, if all starts to go well, as more (if more) ammonia is being converted, you'll need to add a small amount of clear (not sudsy) household ammonia to the tank to keep the level up at 3.0 ppm.  This is done by daily additions of household ammonia of from 3 to 4 drops per gallon to maintain this level constantly, until you see that this same addition of ammonia every day results in a zero reading the following day.  At that time, you'll know your tank is cycled.
       
      With the ammonia at 8.0 ppm, and with the level of debris as being able to be stirred up and making the water cloudy -- and exhibiting organic solids in the form of these "seeds/fuzz balls" -- this is waaay too much debris to have in any tank.  Yes, this is rotting food, and is where your high ammonia is coming from.  And yes, with this enlightenment, you do have a looong way to go, not necessarily in cycling the tank (as the higher ammonia should assist it), but just to make the tank livable for fish.  I wasn't aware there was this much debris.  Without fish in the tank though, this will make it easier (BTW, you can discontinue the Prime at this time when making smaller PWC's but do use it with the extra-large PWC's so as not to kill the bacteria). 
       
      With addressing this problem, and with your intention of removing the UGF, a thorough stirring of the entire gravel bed (as opposed to vacuuming the gravel) would be in the tank's best interest, followed immediately with a 60% PWC while most of the debris is still in suspension. You need to get as much debris out of this tank as possible -- and it can be done now that you know what's needed.  It would serve no purpose to dump all of the water as that would remove all of the ammonia (food for the bacteria), but you will probably need to stir the water up again to remove the remainder of the debris that settled, via another PWC -- as large as maintaining a 3.0 ppm ammonia level will allow -- or removing even more water but replacing the removed ammonia with the household type.  When you get ready to make this second PWC -- and there's not an immediate rush  to do so -- test the ammonia level and post it on here if you're not sure of how much water to change.  Using household ammonia to supplement the needed ammonia level is not hard to do, however.  You've got to get all of that debris out of there though as is sounds to be extremely excessive.
       
      Now as for the bio-wheel filters, while using another Marineland 350 in place of the Whisper would give you more media chambers, the bio-wheels themselves are by their very nature notoriously slower in becoming populated with nitrifying bacteria.  There's nothing wrong with your Whisper 40 filter at all, and HOB filters are quite efficient.  Getting right to one of your last questions in this message, yes certainly, established (with bacteria) filter media can be transplanted from one filter to another and often IS.  Only the different shapes of the different filters may cause some difficulty in doing this, but if that's the intent it can even be trimmed with a scissors to make it fit.  If it were me, I'd stick with the Whisper filter, since it's been up and running through all this time -- even if it was gunked up for some period.  The only thing different I might have done would have been to use a Hagen AquaClear HOB (Hang-On-Back) filter from the start as it's about the best of this design, but this outside HOB filter concept is still one of the best by any manufacturer.
       
      As for your last question, while I have no actual experience with Safe Start Plus -- and I always prefer to base my recommendations and suggestions on personal experience -- from all I've read on it, it seems to be a viable additive capable of supplying nitrifying bacteria.  I've already suggested the additive that I'd use, that being Dr. Tim's One and Only, which Dawn doesn't approve of quite as well as the Bio product she prefers.  
       
      Ray 
             
       
      In a message dated 12/28/2014 10:58:38 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hi!! I hope you had a nice holiday! I have to admit that I'll be glad after New Years when life can get back to normal! 

      I caught a chance to re-home the rest of my fish and not knowing what direction we were going with the tank, I took it. A friend was able to adopt all with the exception of the 2 medium Angels. I set up my 5 gallon and have moved them in there temporarily. The plan is that they won't be there past tomorrow. 

      I haven't received my Seachem Ammonia test kit. I guess the delivery was delayed due to the holiday but I'm hoping it'll be here tomorrow.  I did test our tap water and the numbers were: PH 7.6, High PH 7.4, Ammonia 0, GH 8, KH 6
      The tank has been running empty since the night of the 26th so today I tested everything to see where it stands. Currently PH 6.8, high PH 7.4, ammonia 8, nitrites either 2 or 5 - the color was so close I couldn't pinpoint it, nitrates 10, GH 10, KH 2

      I guess I feel like we've got way too much debris because when stirring up the rocks it becomes cloudy and then we see these little fuzz balls that look like they have a seed in the center. For some reason I believe these to be the excess food that's rotten or moldy??  

      I re-read your post and see that the rise of nitrites means more of the ammonia is being converted. Even with that it still seems like we have a long way to go. And I worry that the nitrites/nitrates will never catch up. 

      I definitely want to get the UGF out of the tank. No don't want it to interrupt the Fluval. Removing it leaves us with the Marineland bio-wheel 350 and the whisper to work with the Fluval. I had ordered another Marineland 350 which I thought was going to be used on the frog tank but it was too big. I was sending it back to Amazon but they don't want to deal with the return so they told me to me to keep it, along with a full box of filters. 
       I was wondering if we could pull the UGF, vacuum all up under the gravel and then swap out the whisper for the new 350? That would give me those 2-350's and the Fluval 206. Do you think that would blow the fish around too much? I don't have a lot of confidence that the whisper for some reason. I'm new & all I know now is what I'm taught and then there is what I read, which may or may not be true.  I don't see the whisper referenced a lot or as talked up a lot. This causes me to doubt it's capability I guess. I have a chance to choose between the extra 350 and the whisper. If it were you, which would you consider to be a better pick. I know the whisper has filters that have been working and have that good bacteria in them. The new 350 would have 4 filter slots filled with new media. I wondered, could we switch and use the 2-350's? Is it possible to pull 1 set of filters from the current 350 and transplant them to the new one? The other two slots in each of the 350's would then get new media? Can you do that, transplant the filter media to a new filter so it's not so "new?" If possible, would spreading out the media, cleaning up the debris drawn under the UGF, doing a water change - either full or a percentage and adding the Fluval allow me to put some fish in and eventually get thru a full cycle?  

      When I started out it was for the African Dwarf Frogs. I only had a 5 gal tank for awhile and several times I had to dump the water, change the filters and start over. The frogs were over crowded and over fed so that tank never cycled. It was frustrating. They're now in a 10 gallon and I'm working to get thru a cycle. I feel like I'm finally getting somewhere. 

      The excessive ammonia I believe is from a combination of too many fish too early and over feeding. I know we were giving them the sinking pellets, flake food, algae wafers, mini-bites and bottom feeders food. And to make matters worse, they were getting it several times a day per the instructions on the containers. 
       
      If dumping part or all of the water would you suggest adding a bottle of Safe Start Plus after the fish get back in! Any other additives you'd suggest? 

      Thanks, 
      Peg


      On Dec 26, 2014, at 11:51 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Hi Peg,
       
      As long as you're still doing the PWC's as your test results show are needed, there's no problem with not getting back here to report the numbers.  You should by now know how to proceed just by the recommendations I've given.  You haven't replied on whether you've tested your tap water for its possible ammonia content or its pH level, however.  When you do make these PWC's, I hope you're adding back 1 TSP of salt for every 50% PWC you make.  Otherwise, as for the numbers still remaining high, you of course don't have a full cycle but with you're test results showing you have levels of ammonia, nitrite and nitrate, this indicates that both types of nitrifying bacteria are present and increasing.  To better understand why there's little reduction in your numbers (the first two numbers -- ammonia and nitrite) to date, the ammonia level will only decrease of its own accord as you see the nitrite level being harder to maintain at the .25 ppm level you reported several days ago.  I realize that the necessary PWC's will make it impossible to get the true high readings of these two numbers, but then these numbers can't be allowed to increase substantially, especially the nitrite -- but only if the same amount of water being changed has less of an effect on keeping the nitrite from climbing, will this number show that the ammonia level should really be decreasing at this time (even though it's still tending to be above 4 ppm).  I hope this makes sense.  BTW, any change in the ammonia number with the new Seachem test kit? 
       
      Unless more nitrite is being produced, to indicate that more ammonia is being converted into that -- as should be started to show in your nitrite test results by now -- your nitrifying type of bacteria that breaks down your ammonia into nitrite are still far from being sufficiently populated in all three of your present filtration systems.  Along these same lines, any increase in your nitrate level will show that the type of nitrifying bacteria that convert your nitrite into nitrate are on the increase, which in turn will indicate that they are starting to be well fed (with converted ammonia), showing that the ammonia-converting bacteria are on the increase.  This end product's (nitrate's) level will tend to show an overall picture of the cycle's progress, but the nitrate level doesn't increase at quite as fast of a rate of speed as does the previous two products so you won't see a dramatic rise in it.  Any rise in the nitrate at all will show the advancement in your cycle though -- OR, especially even its (the nitrate's) stabilization at no lower level than the previous 20 ppm being maintained while you're removing much of it at this time with your PWC's.  Again, let me know if you have any questions on this.
       
      Getting back to increases in the ammonia, even while the ammonia-converting nitrifying bacteria may be increasing substantially in numbers, if more than the normal amount of ammonia is being added to the aquarium (in addition to the fishes' waste) by excess food from overfeeding and/or from excess food and fish waste having infiltrated the substrate (and food & waste not being kept from accumulating in the filters), the ammonia can only increase as no amount of nitrifying bacteria can keep it from rising under such circumstances.  Only by feeding prudently and by keeping the filters cleared of excess debris (but not excessively cleaned to the point of compromising the bacteria populations) can the ammonia be kept in check -- and this goes for keeping the substrate prudently vacuumed as well while alternating from side to side as a way to preserve those bacteria in the gravel.  New ammonia being added to the tank via the tap water will only serve to add to this parameter's number as well, if much is present in that source.
       
      As for a tank "needing" some detritus, this debris will help in establishing the nitrifying bacteria in your filters since they're already growing on this matter, and while a fastidiously-maintained tank will not have the benefit of detritus to help populate the filters from these bacteria populations, ideally this debris should be kept at a very minimum (if at all) and the source of food (ammonia) for the nitrifying bacteria should primarily be from the fish themselves.  This source of ammonia will be constant and at a level that the nitrifying bacteria will in time multiply to in the filters in numbers to oxidize all of it each day.  One other thing I need to stress while on this topic -- After hooking up the Fluval, it can't be expected to establish nitrifying bacteria populations over night.  A cycle will normally take close to and most often up to 6 weeks before becoming fully established -- and that's with fishless cycling where PWC's are not needed to keep the numbers down.  With the PWC's needed to be made to prevent undo stress on the fish, it can be expected to take at least as long.  To have ANY fish in the tank before a cycle was established was where you "shot yourself in the foot," but we now need to go forward under these conditions now.  Getting right back to the detritus, please elaborate on your feeling that you have too much as I don't have a complete picture of this statement.  Exactly where is it and how much is there, and in what form?           
       
      Now, on the UGF plates, the riser tubes should always be positioned so that they're nearest the corners of the tank.  From what I'm understanding from your description, as the two plates aren't as long as the tank when they were set in, you butted them at the center of the tank leaving space towards the ends of the tank.  While this still wouldn't adversely impact their action that much, that they're now in this position will interfere with the Fluval's intake, as I understand you to say.  The only alternative (besides removing the UGF plates completely) would be to temporarily remove some gravel at each end of the tank and reposition the plates towards the ends of the tank -- if it's seen that this will help.  The Fluval should not be operated in any way where it could draw in air, as it appears you're already aware of.  Actually, when I asked about the method of your UGF's operation, not knowing how your's operated I was about to suggest you install powerheads on top of the riser tubes which would make for more efficient UGF's.  This may also eliminate the air issue in interfering with the Fluval.  Or, you may choose to remove the plates entirely, but then I feel a thorough cleaning of the gravel should be done to remove any partially converted waste that has been drawn down into it by the UGF's action.
       
      Getting right to the bioload you have at present and its impact/association on a cycle, it's well below the maximum stocking capacity for this size tank and for this very reason alone, the amount (and size) of the fishes you outlined along with proper feeding should not prevent a successfully established cycle.  The smaller the amount of fish though, the easier it will always be in getting a tank cycled.  I would like to add however, that I believe the excessively high ammonia level is not only the result of these fishes' waste but something in your tank's workings that I can't see from here, resulting from other organic matter in its system contributing to it.  While I can't be completely certain on that, not being able to actually see your tank, a constant level of 8 ppm ammonia with 50% PWC's would seem much more than these fishes can produce in waste.  Perhaps Dawn may be able to comment on this also. 
       
      Ray     
       
       
      In a message dated 12/26/2014 9:11:40 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hi Ray! I haven't sent numbers for a few days because it's been so crazy hectic here and the holidays
      just compounded the issues.

      My husband and I are planning on hooking up the Fluval 206 tomorrow and softer reading about installation I've got concerns on my current tank set-up. When we set the tank up the under gravel filter was installed. The plates weren't long enough for the tank so we set it centered in the tank. (You asked if it was the type with the air stone and bubbles and yea, it is). The Fluval instructions show setting up the intake/output centered in the tank and shouldn't be near any air devices so now I fear setting it up with the UGF in place would disrupt the Fluval performance.

      I also have had concerns with the detritus from over feeding and over stocking. We talked and you explained that the tank needed some detritus. I understand "some" but I feel we have too much. Given we didn't understand how much to feed and how many living things should be there, I know we only shot ourselves in the foot.

      The testing numbers still aren't changing and ammonia continues to be too high so I wonder if we'll ever really have a cycle at this rate. It's very discouraging but I've got too much money invested now to just quit. If we were to completely start over adding only the fish we have now and NOT over feeding do you think we have too many fish to start (2 med Angels, 2 mystery snails, 5 neon tetras and 3 panda Cory cats) and be successful?

      All the advice I rec'd from pet shop people was bad so I'd like to do this the smart way.
      Your thoughts?

      Sent from my iPhone

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56342 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 12/31/2014
      Subject: Re: Questions on re-establishing tank
      Nope! Do not assume..... I filled the first 75% of the tank with cold water from the hose. I then did the install of the Fluval.  After it was ready I finished filling the tank using hot tap water that I lugged with buckets. I started the Fluval then the heater then lastly the Penguin. The thermometer on the tank read 62 degrees when everything was started. Our cold tap water is 54 degrees.

       I don't have a Python but I do have a Marina Aquavac that I rec'd for Christmas. Up until the night I needed to use it I didn't know that none of the adapters would fit any of our faucets, not even the utility sink in the basement. I did find that one end of the adapter would fit the faucet outside. Being unable to physically lug all that water(I'm on disability),  I chose to use the faucet that was available for the largest portion of the fill. 

      The fourth paragraph of your last post states "as you no longer have fish in this tank" but as I told you in my last reply I do have two fish that I couldn't re-home and that needed to go back into that tank. They are two medium Angels. 

      Yes, the 1st ammonia test was done before I drained the tank. The numbers for today will be at the end of this post. If there was room for the whisper without it looking so overcrowded I would have left it, but with everything else, it just appeared too crowded. I still have it all, including the filter media in a bucket. I had to choose between the Penguin and the Whisper and the Penguin seemed like a better choice. 

      I tested our tap water for nitrates when you asked me to test it for ammonia. The nitrate test result was zero. 
      I'm assuming that your instructions for adding ammonia are based on your thought that there weren't any fish in the tank. Should I disregard?  Ideally what range of numbers are ideal for a community tank? 

      Since this isn't going to be a fishless cycle, should I add others to aid in getting thru the cycle? With the ammonia at 1 should I begin adding Prime? If so, would it be daily or every other day? Do I do PWC's with the numbers at these levels 

      Today's numbers are:
      High PH 8,  Ammonia 1, Nitrites .50, nitrates 5, GH 7, KH 5


      On Dec 31, 2014, at 2:26 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@...> so wrote:"

       

      Peg,
       
      To begin with, even though you didn't have the Fluval together yet after you filled the tank, should I assume that you started the Penguin 350 filter?  One other thing, getting right to the gravel, the nitrifiers reside only on the top surface and down to a depth of less than 1/2".  They can't live in anaerobic conditions any deeper than this, so they're not found throughout the gravel.  When you removed the UGF, and when you did the thorough vacuuming of it, you most likely would have mixed in the gravel's top layer with the bulk of the remaining gravel.  It would have been difficult to keep the top layer of gravel intact, as not mixing it with the rest.  At this point, there would be no further concern for not destroying all of the bacteria residing on top of the gravel as it would have ceased to exist when buried under the rest of it.
       
      Now, getting back to the Penguin 350, after you refilled the tank if you started the filter right away you would have subjected the nitrifiers in this filter and on its bio-wheels to extreme shock, dependuing on how cold this new water was.  I's quite likely that you decimated a good percentage of them.  I won't ask you why you chose "to use the garden hose to refill the t, but I will ask why you couldn't have used an in-housÿfe faucet with which you could have mixed in part of this water from the hot water faucet.  I'm still unsure if you have a Python yet or not, but that would have been the thing to use in place of the garden hose if you have one.  At the very least, just a few buckets of warmer water mixed in as the garden hose was filling the tank with COLD water would have helped in preserving your nitrifiers.
       
      While Nitrosomonas (Nitrosomas) can tolerate a temperature down to 35 o - 36 o, and while Nitrobacters can tolerate a temperature down to 38 o - 39 o, to subject them to a sudden temperature of even 45 o, is harsh on them.  Dr. Tim's One & Only supplement is recommended to be kept in the refrigerator -- and the average refrigerator is recommended to be kept at 39 o F, but this product's contents aren't plunged instantly to 39 o when placed in the fridge.  You may have little nitrifying bacteria left to continue the cycle from where it was, and may need to start from scratch.  Actually, Nitrosomonos thrive at their best at a temperature of approximately 86 o, and Nitrobacters thrive best at a temperature of approximately 89 o -- some reports even say slightly higher for each.  While they still do well at the 78 o -- 80 o temperatures where we need them, this may illustrate why a sudden drop to such COLD temperatures would be devastating to them. 
       
      Well at least you did a great job in getting rid of all the debris in the gravel -- which was sorely need to do.  As you no longer have fish in this tank, cycling it should be fairly straight-forward.  So, going to your water testing in your first paragraph here, I'm assuming that these ammonia tests were done before you even removed the UGF plates -- since you give other figures towards the end of your message, of the parameters of the new water.  If the pH of your old water was still down near pH 6.8, this fully explains why you had zero Free-Ammonia.  At this pH, all of it will be in the form of Ammonium -- your Total Ammonia will be 100% Ammonium.  That the test came up as showing a deep purple, shows that it was off your API test chart scale having an upper limit of 8.0 ppm, as I stated that I suspected.  No, I've never ever seen a level that high.
       
      I thought you may have decided on removing the Whisper filter, just by your enthusiasm for doing this when you posted last.  I'm not sure if you thought about saving whatever bacteria that had developed in it up to this point, which you could have now used to seed the Penguin 350.     
       
      Getting to your test results of the refilled tank, as your regular pH test kit only goes up to pH 7.6, and since you high pH test result is so much higher, your regular test result is useless as we know the pH is much higher than pH 7.6.  There's really no reason to even consider it.  We know your tank's pH is 8.0.  With your tap water testing at zero ammonia, and with your tank water now testing at 1.0 ppm -- AFTER making a 95% PWC -- this begins to show just how much ammonia had accumulated in your old water, if the 5% residual old water shows a level of 1.0 ppm after being diluted by a rate of 19 to 1 by the fresh water.  It's a bit surprising you have any nitrate, but this is obviously due to the small amount of old water left in the tank (unless your tap water contains some nitrate).  With zero nitrite again, this is to be expected having mostly all new water, although there's probably a trace of it left from the old water that's too small to test for.  Your two hardness (GH & KH) levels are really quite good.  Some would say they're just about ideal for average community tank fish.  Your KH isn't too low that it doesn't have at least moderate buffering capacity -- it does.
       
      So now, with 1.0 ppm of ammonia right now, you'll need to increase it to 3.0 ppm by adding 3 or 4 drops of clear household ammonia per gallon (not sudsy, as I've said before).  Monitor the ammonia level daily and add more ammonia as need to keep the level up at 3.0 ppm each day.  At first, you won't need to add much, if any, but as time goes by you'll need to add a bit more each day, until it reaches a point where you'll need to add the full 3 - 4 drops daily; the test will show zero ppm on these following days, showing that the bacteria are in sufficient amounts that they can handle this amount of ammonia given off from fish if you were to introduce them.  As your tank would be fully cycled at this point, this IS the time to add your fish and to stop adding any more ammonia.  You'll first need to do enough of a water change to remove the build up of nitrate, which should be brought down to at least 40 ppm, or preferably lower.  Right now, this is just the start and we'll guide you as the cycle progresses. 
       
      Ray 
       
       
       
      In a message dated 12/30/2014 11:10:10 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hey there!! 
      I finally rec'd the Seachem Ammonia Testing Kit. I tested the Aquarium water and also my tap. Both free and total ammonia tests show 0 ammonia.  The Aquarium tested with free ammonia 0, total ammonia was deep purple, darker than the darkest blue on the color strip. Have you ever seen anything like that??

      I guess the aquarium count is a moot point now because last night I started removing the UGF and vacuuming all the substrate. By the time I had done a thorough cleaning about 95% of the water was gone. 
      I had to refill the tank with the garden hose and being in Ohio, that water was COLD!! I still had to put the Fluval together so I let it sit for awhile. Was hoping it would warm up a little bit at least. My tank is a Marineland 55 gal with the middle brace. The lid has those cut-out spaces on each side for filters etc....the right side is filled with the Penguin 350 and then on the left I had that whisper that would share space with Fluval. It was crowded and looked it so I pulled the a Whisper out and put the Fluval in the space. Taking the Whisper down gave me opportunity to space the Fluval tubes apart and it all looks nice and neat. 

      Although I vacuumed the gravel really well I didn't add water and rinse it. I was trying not to destroy ALL the bacteria. I also left all 4 filters and both bio-wheels in the Penguin without rinsing them. After I had filled the tank with about 6-8 inches of water I stirred the gravel up to see if there were still going to be a lot of debris or any fuzzles floating around and there weren't. It looked good. I was glad because I really didn't want ti rinse all the gravel if I didn't have to. 

      The only fish I had left were the two that were in the emergency tank I set up. I didn't have filter media to maintain that tank so I knew I needed to move them.  Today the tank was up to temp so I treated with Prime them added a  full bottle of Safe Start (I didn't know until tonight that Amazon carried Dr.Tims or I would've ordered - going to order this week to keep on on hand). Two hours later I moved the Angels over to the 55 gal. So far, so good. 

      Early this evening I tested the tank water. This is what I came up with:  PH 7.6,  HPH 8, Ammonia 1, Nitrites 0, Nitrates 5, GH 8, KH 6.  Do you think maybe the stuff left in the gravel along with what was in the Penguins filter media are enough to maybe take this forward in the cycle? 

      Peg
      Soon Opening: Hoopin' It Up Designs
                                Custom Embroidery & Embellishments

      On Dec 29, 2014, at 1:10 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.comwrote:

       

      Hi Peg,
       
      Yes, the holidays are just fine and now with New Year's Day coming up, it will just serve to extend them for another half a week.  Enjoy them while you can.  Yes, sooner or later things will normalize.
       
      Rehoming your remaining fish should make things much easier from here on in.   I'm eager to see what your ammonia tests out to be when you Seachem kit arrives.  Typically, and unless your water supplier  gives you super chloraminated water, most water companies use a concentration of around 4 ppm chloramine in their drinking water.  As the chlorine and the ammonia combine at a ratio of 7.6 to 1, you probably have about 0.5 ppm of ammonia in your tap water, but apparently nothing excessive above that.  Good to see that your ammonia test results are coming up minimal (zero?).  One thing I notice is that the high pH test resuolt of your tap water is pH 7.4 -- and you high pH test result of your aquarium water is exactly the same -- yet your low pH tests of these two different water shows a difference of pH 0.8.  I'm not understanding this at all.  While each test kit tests in a different range, they both should show a direct relationship to each other.  There should be no large difference in one test if the other test remains stable.  Maybe (hopefully) Dawn can join us to figure this one out as maybe I'm missing something, or else maybe there been an error in reading the tests.
       
      While the test colors for the nitrite may be "close" to either 2.0 ppm or 5.0 ppm, there's a huge difference in toxicity if fish were still involved.  Now, with you nitrate previously testing out at 20 ppm even through several PWC's you've made, only to test at 10.0 ppm now, does not seem possible since there's more nitrite available now to be converted into nitrate.  Have you made another large PWC just prior to testing for nitrate? 
       
      Without having any fish in the tank now, rest assured that you don't need to make those PWC's to keep the organic waste parameters down.  You will need to monitor them, to maintain the ammonia at a minimum level of about 3.0 ppm, but you no longer need to be concerned much about it being up at 8.0 ppm -- unless it tends to remain there (which I suspect it may, due to possible excess organic matter in the water).  But, if all starts to go well, as more (if more) ammonia is being converted, you'll need to add a small amount of clear (not sudsy) household ammonia to the tank to keep the level up at 3.0 ppm.  This is done by daily additions of household ammonia of from 3 to 4 drops per gallon to maintain this level constantly, until you see that this same addition of ammonia every day results in a zero reading the following day.  At that time, you'll know your tank is cycled.
       
      With the ammonia at 8.0 ppm, and with the level of debris as being able to be stirred up and making the water cloudy -- and exhibiting organic solids in the form of these "seeds/fuzz balls" -- this is waaay too much debris to have in any tank.  Yes, this is rotting food, and is where your high ammonia is coming from.  And yes, with this enlightenment, you do have a looong way to go, not necessarily in cycling the tank (as the higher ammonia should assist it), but just to make the tank livable for fish.  I wasn't aware there was this much debris.  Without fish in the tank though, this will make it easier (BTW, you can discontinue the Prime at this time when making smaller PWC's but do use it with the extra-large PWC's so as not to kill the bacteria). 
       
      With addressing this problem, and with your intention of removing the UGF, a thorough stirring of the entire gravel bed (as opposed to vacuuming the gravel) would be in the tank's best interest, followed immediately with a 60% PWC while most of the debris is still in suspension. You need to get as much debris out of this tank as possible -- and it can be done now that you know what's needed.  It would serve no purpose to dump all of the water as that would remove all of the ammonia (food for the bacteria), but you will probably need to stir the water up again to remove the remainder of the debris that settled, via another PWC -- as large as maintaining a 3.0 ppm ammonia level will allow -- or removing even more water but replacing the removed ammonia with the household type.  When you get ready to make this second PWC -- and there's not an immediate rush  to do so -- test the ammonia level and post it on here if you're not sure of how much water to change.  Using household ammonia to supplement the needed ammonia level is not hard to do, however.  You've got to get all of that debris out of there though as is sounds to be extremely excessive.
       
      Now as for the bio-wheel filters, while using another Marineland 350 in place of the Whisper would give you more media chambers, the bio-wheels themselves are by their very nature notoriously slower in becoming populated with nitrifying bacteria.  There's nothing wrong with your Whisper 40 filter at all, and HOB filters are quite efficient.  Getting right to one of your last questions in this message, yes certainly, established (with bacteria) filter media can be transplanted from one filter to another and often IS.  Only the different shapes of the different filters may cause some difficulty in doing this, but if that's the intent it can even be trimmed with a scissors to make it fit.  If it were me, I'd stick with the Whisper filter, since it's been up and running through all this time -- even if it was gunked up for some period.  The only thing different I might have done would have been to use a Hagen AquaClear HOB (Hang-On-Back) filter from the start as it's about the best of this design, but this outside HOB filter concept is still one of the best by any manufacturer.
       
      As for your last question, while I have no actual experience with Safe Start Plus -- and I always prefer to base my recommendations and suggestions on personal experience -- from all I've read on it, it seems to be a viable additive capable of supplying nitrifying bacteria.  I've already suggested the additive that I'd use, that being Dr. Tim's One and Only, which Dawn doesn't approve of quite as well as the Bio product she prefers.  
       
      Ray 
             
       
      In a message dated 12/28/2014 10:58:38 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hi!! I hope you had a nice holiday! I have to admit that I'll be glad after New Years when life can get back to normal! 

      I caught a chance to re-home the rest of my fish and not knowing what direction we were going with the tank, I took it. A friend was able to adopt all with the exception of the 2 medium Angels. I set up my 5 gallon and have moved them in there temporarily. The plan is that they won't be there past tomorrow. 

      I haven't received my Seachem Ammonia test kit. I guess the delivery was delayed due to the holiday but I'm hoping it'll be here tomorrow.  I did test our tap water and the numbers were: PH 7.6, High PH 7.4, Ammonia 0, GH 8, KH 6
      The tank has been running empty since the night of the 26th so today I tested everything to see where it stands. Currently PH 6.8, high PH 7.4, ammonia 8, nitrites either 2 or 5 - the color was so close I couldn't pinpoint it, nitrates 10, GH 10, KH 2

      I guess I feel like we've got way too much debris because when stirring up the rocks it becomes cloudy and then we see these little fuzz balls that look like they have a seed in the center. For some reason I believe these to be the excess food that's rotten or moldy??  

      I re-read your post and see that the rise of nitrites means more of the ammonia is being converted. Even with that it still seems like we have a long way to go. And I worry that the nitrites/nitrates will never catch up. 

      I definitely want to get the UGF out of the tank. No don't want it to interrupt the Fluval. Removing it leaves us with the Marineland bio-wheel 350 and the whisper to work with the Fluval. I had ordered another Marineland 350 which I thought was going to be used on the frog tank but it was too big. I was sending it back to Amazon but they don't want to deal with the return so they told me to me to keep it, along with a full box of filters. 
       I was wondering if we could pull the UGF, vacuum all up under the gravel and then swap out the whisper for the new 350? That would give me those 2-350's and the Fluval 206. Do you think that would blow the fish around too much? I don't have a lot of confidence that the whisper for some reason. I'm new & all I know now is what I'm taught and then there is what I read, which may or may not be true.  I don't see the whisper referenced a lot or as talked up a lot. This causes me to doubt it's capability I guess. I have a chance to choose between the extra 350 and the whisper. If it were you, which would you consider to be a better pick. I know the whisper has filters that have been working and have that good bacteria in them. The new 350 would have 4 filter slots filled with new media. I wondered, could we switch and use the 2-350's? Is it possible to pull 1 set of filters from the current 350 and transplant them to the new one? The other two slots in each of the 350's would then get new media? Can you do that, transplant the filter media to a new filter so it's not so "new?" If possible, would spreading out the media, cleaning up the debris drawn under the UGF, doing a water change - either full or a percentage and adding the Fluval allow me to put some fish in and eventually get thru a full cycle?  

      When I started out it was for the African Dwarf Frogs. I only had a 5 gal tank for awhile and several times I had to dump the water, change the filters and start over. The frogs were over crowded and over fed so that tank never cycled. It was frustrating. They're now in a 10 gallon and I'm working to get thru a cycle. I feel like I'm finally getting somewhere. 

      The excessive ammonia I believe is from a combination of too many fish too early and over feeding. I know we were giving them the sinking pellets, flake food, algae wafers, mini-bites and bottom feeders food. And to make matters worse, they were getting it several times a day per the instructions on the containers. 
       
      If dumping part or all of the water would you suggest adding a bottle of Safe Start Plus after the fish get back in! Any other additives you'd suggest? 

      Thanks, 
      Peg


      On Dec 26, 2014, at 11:51 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

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      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56343 From: sevenspringss Date: 12/31/2014
      Subject: Re: Questions on re-establishing tank
      AOL Email
      Okay, I'm glad to hear you topped off the tank with some hot tap water.  You need to get a Python though, to make life easier.  I do have to say though, that with your statement of, "I had to refill the tank with the garden hose and being in Ohio, that water was COLD !!," I saw no other choice in understanding this no other way than you having filled your tank with COLD water < g >.  You made no mention of filling it only 3/4 of the way with cold water.  Well at least only the few nitrifiers left on top of the gravel got the worst of it, and 54 o isn't terribly cold.
       
      OH, you got a Marina Aquavac for Christmas.  GREAT; I guess all you'll need now is to get the right adapters for it, to fit your faucets.  That's gonna save you a lot of work.  I don't know how you managed to carry those full buckets of water up until now.  Yes, I did read that you have two Angelfish in your emergency tank, but had forgotten about them needing to go back into the 55.  That's going to make things more difficult as you can't do the fishless-cycle thing with adding household ammonia.  With only these two fish in the tank though, you shouldn't be getting large amounts of ammonia and when it's finally cycled, it won't be cycled for a very large (like 3 pp) amount of ammonia capable of handling the waste of very many more fish.  It will be cycled to handle the waste level of only these two fish, meaning that you'll need to add the rest of your planned fish slowly, a few at a time, to give the cycle time to increase to the capacity to handle the waste from the additional fish. 
       
      I'm almost wondering if it would be feasible to keep the Angels in the emergency tank during the cycling of the (fishless) cycling of the 55, and making 90% PWC's on the emergency tank twice a week.  How large is this emergency tank, and what did you do with the Whisper?  Maybe you could run the partially-cycled Whisper on the emergency tank.  Alright, I didn't read that far ahead.  I see in your next paragraph that you saved the Whisper's media. 
       
      If you're keeping the two Angelfish in the 55, then Yes disregard my instructions on adding household ammonia -- as I mentioned in my first paragraph.  Ideally, a tank should be cycled to be able to convert about 3 ppm of ammonia produced daily by all your fishes (fishes in this case referring to more than one species of fish, as used in scientific literature).  This 3 ppm ammonia level that a tank would be cycled to handle is roughly what a properly stocked tank of fish would produce in one day.  By this, you can see that the ammonia produced only by the two Angelfish will not grow as large of colonies of nitrifying bacteria that will be needed to handle the waste from a full tank of fishes.  By slowly adding the workload on these bacteria with small additions of fishes, you'll gradually increase the cycle's capacity to handle the waste from more fish. 
       
      I see that any nitrate in the 55 right now is the result of the 5% old water allowed to remain.  Your numbers look good and you may also expect the ammonia to drop as a result of having only two fish to add more ammonia even as much of this in one day; at the very most, if it rises, it shouldn't be by very much.  With the nitrite level being at 0.50 ppm, whereas it was zero yesterday, this shows that these particular bacteria are converting the ammonia.  I'm assuming you're using Prime to prevent any ammonia from being toxic, especially at this higher pH).  If not, continue to use it now.  As the nitrite can only be expected to rise from here on until those bacteria start multiplying more, keep those two TBS (Tablespoons) of salt in the water at all times.
       
      I'd like to hope that the 5 ppm of nitrate is the result of bacteria converting some of this nitrite, but I really doubt that, as nice as that would be.  Noticing your your two hardness readings starting to drop.  Note that nothing in the tank can induce the GH to decrease -- it MUST remain at 8 dGH if that's what it was yesterday.  It is what it is and nothing will change that except water evaporation increasing its value.  We'll need to keep an eye on the KH and any further decrease of it, but with the pH being at 8, you can't use very much buffer to stabilize it at 6 as it may increase the pH when doing so.  We'll play it by ear though and digest these numbers daily.
       
      Ray
           
       
      In a message dated 12/31/2014 11:43:12 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Nope! Do not assume..... I filled the first 75% of the tank with cold water from the hose. I then did the install of the Fluval.  After it was ready I finished filling the tank using hot tap water that I lugged with buckets. I started the Fluval then the heater then lastly the Penguin. The thermometer on the tank read 62 degrees when everything was started. Our cold tap water is 54 degrees.

       I don't have a Python but I do have a Marina Aquavac that I rec'd for Christmas. Up until the night I needed to use it I didn't know that none of the adapters would fit any of our faucets, not even the utility sink in the basement. I did find that one end of the adapter would fit the faucet outside. Being unable to physically lug all that water(I'm on disability),  I chose to use the faucet that was available for the largest portion of the fill. 

      The fourth paragraph of your last post states "as you no longer have fish in this tank" but as I told you in my last reply I do have two fish that I couldn't re-home and that needed to go back into that tank. They are two medium Angels. 

      Yes, the 1st ammonia test was done before I drained the tank. The numbers for today will be at the end of this post. If there was room for the whisper without it looking so overcrowded I would have left it, but with everything else, it just appeared too crowded. I still have it all, including the filter media in a bucket. I had to choose between the Penguin and the Whisper and the Penguin seemed like a better choice. 

      I tested our tap water for nitrates when you asked me to test it for ammonia. The nitrate test result was zero. 
      I'm assuming that your instructions for adding ammonia are based on your thought that there weren't any fish in the tank. Should I disregard?  Ideally what range of numbers are ideal for a community tank? 

      Since this isn't going to be a fishless cycle, should I add others to aid in getting thru the cycle? With the ammonia at 1 should I begin adding Prime? If so, would it be daily or every other day? Do I do PWC's with the numbers at these levels 

      Today's numbers are:
      High PH 8,  Ammonia 1, Nitrites .50, nitrates 5, GH 7, KH 5

      Peg


      On Dec 31, 2014, at 2:26 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@...> so wrote:"

       

      Peg,
       
      To begin with, even though you didn't have the Fluval together yet after you filled the tank, should I assume that you started the Penguin 350 filter?  One other thing, getting right to the gravel, the nitrifiers reside only on the top surface and down to a depth of less than 1/2".  They can't live in anaerobic conditions any deeper than this, so they're not found throughout the gravel.  When you removed the UGF, and when you did the thorough vacuuming of it, you most likely would have mixed in the gravel's top layer with the bulk of the remaining gravel.  It would have been difficult to keep the top layer of gravel intact, as not mixing it with the rest.  At this point, there would be no further concern for not destroying all of the bacteria residing on top of the gravel as it would have ceased to exist when buried under the rest of it.
       
      Now, getting back to the Penguin 350, after you refilled the tank if you started the filter right away you would have subjected the nitrifiers in this filter and on its bio-wheels to extreme shock, dependuing on how cold this new water was.  I's quite likely that you decimated a good percentage of them.  I won't ask you why you chose "to use the garden hose to refill the t, but I will ask why you couldn't have used an in-housÿfe faucet with which you could have mixed in part of this water from the hot water faucet.  I'm still unsure if you have a Python yet or not, but that would have been the thing to use in place of the garden hose if you have one.  At the very least, just a few buckets of warmer water mixed in as the garden hose was filling the tank with COLD water would have helped in preserving your nitrifiers.
       
      While Nitrosomonas (Nitrosomas) can tolerate a temperature down to 35 o - 36 o, and while Nitrobacters can tolerate a temperature down to 38 o - 39 o, to subject them to a sudden temperature of even 45 o, is harsh on them.  Dr. Tim's One & Only supplement is recommended to be kept in the refrigerator -- and the average refrigerator is recommended to be kept at 39 o F, but this product's contents aren't plunged instantly to 39 o when placed in the fridge.  You may have little nitrifying bacteria left to continue the cycle from where it was, and may need to start from scratch.  Actually, Nitrosomonos thrive at their best at a temperature of approximately 86 o, and Nitrobacters thrive best at a temperature of approximately 89 o -- some reports even say slightly higher for each.  While they still do well at the 78 o -- 80 o temperatures where we need them, this may illustrate why a sudden drop to such COLD temperatures would be devastating to them. 
       
      Well at least you did a great job in getting rid of all the debris in the gravel -- which was sorely need to do.  As you no longer have fish in this tank, cycling it should be fairly straight-forward.  So, going to your water testing in your first paragraph here, I'm assuming that these ammonia tests were done before you even removed the UGF plates -- since you give other figures towards the end of your message, of the parameters of the new water.  If the pH of your old water was still down near pH 6.8, this fully explains why you had zero Free-Ammonia.  At this pH, all of it will be in the form of Ammonium -- your Total Ammonia will be 100% Ammonium.  That the test came up as showing a deep purple, shows that it was off your API test chart scale having an upper limit of 8.0 ppm, as I stated that I suspected.  No, I've never ever seen a level that high.
       
      I thought you may have decided on removing the Whisper filter, just by your enthusiasm for doing this when you posted last.  I'm not sure if you thought about saving whatever bacteria that had developed in it up to this point, which you could have now used to seed the Penguin 350.     
       
      Getting to your test results of the refilled tank, as your regular pH test kit only goes up to pH 7.6, and since you high pH test result is so much higher, your regular test result is useless as we know the pH is much higher than pH 7.6.  There's really no reason to even consider it.  We know your tank's pH is 8.0.  With your tap water testing at zero ammonia, and with your tank water now testing at 1.0 ppm -- AFTER making a 95% PWC -- this begins to show just how much ammonia had accumulated in your old water, if the 5% residual old water shows a level of 1.0 ppm after being diluted by a rate of 19 to 1 by the fresh water.  It's a bit surprising you have any nitrate, but this is obviously due to the small amount of old water left in the tank (unless your tap water contains some nitrate).  With zero nitrite again, this is to be expected having mostly all new water, although there's probably a trace of it left from the old water that's too small to test for.  Your two hardness (GH & KH) levels are really quite good.  Some would say they're just about ideal for average community tank fish.  Your KH isn't too low that it doesn't have at least moderate buffering capacity -- it does.
       
      So now, with 1.0 ppm of ammonia right now, you'll need to increase it to 3.0 ppm by adding 3 or 4 drops of clear household ammonia per gallon (not sudsy, as I've said before).  Monitor the ammonia level daily and add more ammonia as need to keep the level up at 3.0 ppm each day.  At first, you won't need to add much, if any, but as time goes by you'll need to add a bit more each day, until it reaches a point where you'll need to add the full 3 - 4 drops daily; the test will show zero ppm on these following days, showing that the bacteria are in sufficient amounts that they can handle this amount of ammonia given off from fish if you were to introduce them.  As your tank would be fully cycled at this point, this IS the time to add your fish and to stop adding any more ammonia.  You'll first need to do enough of a water change to remove the build up of nitrate, which should be brought down to at least 40 ppm, or preferably lower.  Right now, this is just the start and we'll guide you as the cycle progresses. 
       
      Ray 
       
       
       
      In a message dated 12/30/2014 11:10:10 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hey there!! 
      I finally rec'd the Seachem Ammonia Testing Kit. I tested the Aquarium water and also my tap. Both free and total ammonia tests show 0 ammonia.  The Aquarium tested with free ammonia 0, total ammonia was deep purple, darker than the darkest blue on the color strip. Have you ever seen anything like that??

      I guess the aquarium count is a moot point now because last night I started removing the UGF and vacuuming all the substrate. By the time I had done a thorough cleaning about 95% of the water was gone. 
      I had to refill the tank with the garden hose and being in Ohio, that water was COLD!! I still had to put the Fluval together so I let it sit for awhile. Was hoping it would warm up a little bit at least. My tank is a Marineland 55 gal with the middle brace. The lid has those cut-out spaces on each side for filters etc....the right side is filled with the Penguin 350 and then on the left I had that whisper that would share space with Fluval. It was crowded and looked it so I pulled the a Whisper out and put the Fluval in the space. Taking the Whisper down gave me opportunity to space the Fluval tubes apart and it all looks nice and neat. 

      Although I vacuumed the gravel really well I didn't add water and rinse it. I was trying not to destroy ALL the bacteria. I also left all 4 filters and both bio-wheels in the Penguin without rinsing them. After I had filled the tank with about 6-8 inches of water I stirred the gravel up to see if there were still going to be a lot of debris or any fuzzles floating around and there weren't. It looked good. I was glad because I really didn't want ti rinse all the gravel if I didn't have to. 

      The only fish I had left were the two that were in the emergency tank I set up. I didn't have filter media to maintain that tank so I knew I needed to move them.  Today the tank was up to temp so I treated with Prime them added a  full bottle of Safe Start (I didn't know until tonight that Amazon carried Dr.Tims or I would've ordered - going to order this week to keep on on hand). Two hours later I moved the Angels over to the 55 gal. So far, so good. 

      Early this evening I tested the tank water. This is what I came up with:  PH 7.6,  HPH 8, Ammonia 1, Nitrites 0, Nitrates 5, GH 8, KH 6.  Do you think maybe the stuff left in the gravel along with what was in the Penguins filter media are enough to maybe take this forward in the cycle? 

      Peg
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      On Dec 29, 2014, at 1:10 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.comwrote:

       

      Hi Peg,
       
      Yes, the holidays are just fine and now with New Year's Day coming up, it will just serve to extend them for another half a week.  Enjoy them while you can.  Yes, sooner or later things will normalize.
       
      Rehoming your remaining fish should make things much easier from here on in.   I'm eager to see what your ammonia tests out to be when you Seachem kit arrives.  Typically, and unless your water supplier  gives you super chloraminated water, most water companies use a concentration of around 4 ppm chloramine in their drinking water.  As the chlorine and the ammonia combine at a ratio of 7.6 to 1, you probably have about 0.5 ppm of ammonia in your tap water, but apparently nothing excessive above that.  Good to see that your ammonia test results are coming up minimal (zero?).  One thing I notice is that the high pH test resuolt of your tap water is pH 7.4 -- and you high pH test result of your aquarium water is exactly the same -- yet your low pH tests of these two different water shows a difference of pH 0.8.  I'm not understanding this at all.  While each test kit tests in a different range, they both should show a direct relationship to each other.  There should be no large difference in one test if the other test remains stable.  Maybe (hopefully) Dawn can join us to figure this one out as maybe I'm missing something, or else maybe there been an error in reading the tests.
       
      While the test colors for the nitrite may be "close" to either 2.0 ppm or 5.0 ppm, there's a huge difference in toxicity if fish were still involved.  Now, with you nitrate previously testing out at 20 ppm even through several PWC's you've made, only to test at 10.0 ppm now, does not seem possible since there's more nitrite available now to be converted into nitrate.  Have you made another large PWC just prior to testing for nitrate? 
       
      Without having any fish in the tank now, rest assured that you don't need to make those PWC's to keep the organic waste parameters down.  You will need to monitor them, to maintain the ammonia at a minimum level of about 3.0 ppm, but you no longer need to be concerned much about it being up at 8.0 ppm -- unless it tends to remain there (which I suspect it may, due to possible excess organic matter in the water).  But, if all starts to go well, as more (if more) ammonia is being converted, you'll need to add a small amount of clear (not sudsy) household ammonia to the tank to keep the level up at 3.0 ppm.  This is done by daily additions of household ammonia of from 3 to 4 drops per gallon to maintain this level constantly, until you see that this same addition of ammonia every day results in a zero reading the following day.  At that time, you'll know your tank is cycled.
       
      With the ammonia at 8.0 ppm, and with the level of debris as being able to be stirred up and making the water cloudy -- and exhibiting organic solids in the form of these "seeds/fuzz balls" -- this is waaay too much debris to have in any tank.  Yes, this is rotting food, and is where your high ammonia is coming from.  And yes, with this enlightenment, you do have a looong way to go, not necessarily in cycling the tank (as the higher ammonia should assist it), but just to make the tank livable for fish.  I wasn't aware there was this much debris.  Without fish in the tank though, this will make it easier (BTW, you can discontinue the Prime at this time when making smaller PWC's but do use it with the extra-large PWC's so as not to kill the bacteria). 
       
      With addressing this problem, and with your intention of removing the UGF, a thorough stirring of the entire gravel bed (as opposed to vacuuming the gravel) would be in the tank's best interest, followed immediately with a 60% PWC while most of the debris is still in suspension. You need to get as much debris out of this tank as possible -- and it can be done now that you know what's needed.  It would serve no purpose to dump all of the water as that would remove all of the ammonia (food for the bacteria), but you will probably need to stir the water up again to remove the remainder of the debris that settled, via another PWC -- as large as maintaining a 3.0 ppm ammonia level will allow -- or removing even more water but replacing the removed ammonia with the household type.  When you get ready to make this second PWC -- and there's not an immediate rush  to do so -- test the ammonia level and post it on here if you're not sure of how much water to change.  Using household ammonia to supplement the needed ammonia level is not hard to do, however.  You've got to get all of that debris out of there though as is sounds to be extremely excessive.
       
      Now as for the bio-wheel filters, while using another Marineland 350 in place of the Whisper would give you more media chambers, the bio-wheels themselves are by their very nature notoriously slower in becoming populated with nitrifying bacteria.  There's nothing wrong with your Whisper 40 filter at all, and HOB filters are quite efficient.  Getting right to one of your last questions in this message, yes certainly, established (with bacteria) filter media can be transplanted from one filter to another and often IS.  Only the different shapes of the different filters may cause some difficulty in doing this, but if that's the intent it can even be trimmed with a scissors to make it fit.  If it were me, I'd stick with the Whisper filter, since it's been up and running through all this time -- even if it was gunked up for some period.  The only thing different I might have done would have been to use a Hagen AquaClear HOB (Hang-On-Back) filter from the start as it's about the best of this design, but this outside HOB filter concept is still one of the best by any manufacturer.
       
      As for your last question, while I have no actual experience with Safe Start Plus -- and I always prefer to base my recommendations and suggestions on personal experience -- from all I've read on it, it seems to be a viable additive capable of supplying nitrifying bacteria.  I've already suggested the additive that I'd use, that being Dr. Tim's One and Only, which Dawn doesn't approve of quite as well as the Bio product she prefers.  
       
      Ray 
             
       
      In a message dated 12/28/2014 10:58:38 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hi!! I hope you had a nice holiday! I have to admit that I'll be glad after New Years when life can get back to normal! 

      I caught a chance to re-home the rest of my fish and not knowing what direction we were going with the tank, I took it. A friend was able to adopt all with the exception of the 2 medium Angels. I set up my 5 gallon and have moved them in there temporarily. The plan is that they won't be there past tomorrow. 

      I haven't received my Seachem Ammonia test kit. I guess the delivery was delayed due to the holiday but I'm hoping it'll be here tomorrow.  I did test our tap water and the numbers were: PH 7.6, High PH 7.4, Ammonia 0, GH 8, KH 6
      The tank has been running empty since the night of the 26th so today I tested everything to see where it stands. Currently PH 6.8, high PH 7.4, ammonia 8, nitrites either 2 or 5 - the color was so close I couldn't pinpoint it, nitrates 10, GH 10, KH 2

      I guess I feel like we've got way too much debris because when stirring up the rocks it becomes cloudy and then we see these little fuzz balls that look like they have a seed in the center. For some reason I believe these to be the excess food that's rotten or moldy??  

      I re-read your post and see that the rise of nitrites means more of the ammonia is being converted. Even with that it still seems like we have a long way to go. And I worry that the nitrites/nitrates will never catch up. 

      I definitely want to get the UGF out of the tank. No don't want it to interrupt the Fluval. Removing it leaves us with the Marineland bio-wheel 350 and the whisper to work with the Fluval. I had ordered another Marineland 350 which I thought was going to be used on the frog tank but it was too big. I was sending it back to Amazon but they don't want to deal with the return so they told me to me to keep it, along with a full box of filters. 
       I was wondering if we could pull the UGF, vacuum all up under the gravel and then swap out the whisper for the new 350? That would give me those 2-350's and the Fluval 206. Do you think that would blow the fish around too much? I don't have a lot of confidence that the whisper for some reason. I'm new & all I know now is what I'm taught and then there is what I read, which may or may not be true.  I don't see the whisper referenced a lot or as talked up a lot. This causes me to doubt it's capability I guess. I have a chance to choose between the extra 350 and the whisper. If it were you, which would you consider to be a better pick. I know the whisper has filters that have been working and have that good bacteria in them. The new 350 would have 4 filter slots filled with new media. I wondered, could we switch and use the 2-350's? Is it possible to pull 1 set of filters from the current 350 and transplant them to the new one? The other two slots in each of the 350's would then get new media? Can you do that, transplant the filter media to a new filter so it's not so "new?" If possible, would spreading out the media, cleaning up the debris drawn under the UGF, doing a water change - either full or a percentage and adding the Fluval allow me to put some fish in and eventually get thru a full cycle?  

      When I started out it was for the African Dwarf Frogs. I only had a 5 gal tank for awhile and several times I had to dump the water, change the filters and start over. The frogs were over crowded and over fed so that tank never cycled. It was frustrating. They're now in a 10 gallon and I'm working to get thru a cycle. I feel like I'm finally getting somewhere. 

      The excessive ammonia I believe is from a combination of too many fish too early and over feeding. I know we were giving them the sinking pellets, flake food, algae wafers, mini-bites and bottom feeders food. And to make matters worse, they were getting it several times a day per the instructions on the containers. 
       
      If dumping part or all of the water would you suggest adding a bottle of Safe Start Plus after the fish get back in! Any other additives you'd suggest? 

      Thanks, 
      Peg


      On Dec 26, 2014, at 11:51 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

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      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56344 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 12/31/2014
      Subject: Re: Questions on re-establishing tank
      I'm sorry I wasn't clear and didn't tell you that I did add hot tap water to the tank. 
      I think the Aquavac is going to be s big help. Even though I only use a 4 & 5 gal bucket to fill, they're really heavy. Even without the use of the suction caused by the water valve, it drained really fast. I got a 50 ft hose so I'll be able to hook up to our utility sink I the basement. When I have to add water for the frogs I pull samples and use the digital thermometer to try to get the water as close as possible to what it is in the tank.  
      My DH is on his way right now to the hardware store to get the right adapter so I'll be able to use next time I have a water change. 
      Keeping the Angels in the emergency tank wouldn't be so bad if it were bigger. It's only a 5 gal hex so it was really crowded in there with the two fish and the whisper like HOB filter I had to rig.  The filter took up a lot of room. I thought about moving the whisper over there but it's a tad deeper do it would crowd the fish even more. Since it's not long term I guess I could move them back and do the fishless cycle. 

      It seems like going through a cycle with two fish will be a bigger pain in the end because if I understand correctly, after the tank cycles I'll have to add new fish really slowly so the filters can catch up to the new amount of stuff in the water. If I add too quickly then I'll screw it all up and possibly have to go through another cycle??

      If that's true then it seems I should add some new fish now, maybe some corys(?) or I should get these fish out and just do what's needed for the fishless cycle.  Let me ask you this.... In the long run which choice will make the aquarium a more stable home. Are there add'l benefits to the fishless cycle?

      After cycling, what is the maximum number of fish that should be in the tank? I don't even know what the correct capacity is but I know I don't want to put too many fish in there and ever get back to the place it was. 

      If I move the fish back to the emergency tank should I try to use the filter media from the whisper? It's dried out now. Can the Bacteria live in a dry environment or would it have needed to remain moist? 

      I'm surprised at adding salt into the the freshwater tank. What is its purpose?  
      If the fish stay in will I do PWCs? Do if I did a 50% water change then I'd add back 1 TBS but if I did s 25% water change I'd add back 1/2 TBS salt? 

      I'm also surprised at adding household ammonia to the tank but I did but some yesterday. It's just so strong that I wouldn't have ever thought it would be safe in an aquarium. 

      I am using Prime but wondered if I should add daily or every other day? I'm sorry I'm such a PITA! I'm not trying to be. Just trying to understand and rebound from the bad info and guidance I had received.  I also need to try to find a good place to buy fish. The only places I know of are Petsmart, Petco, Jacks etc.... I tried looking for privately owned shops but I can't locate any in the Columbus area. I did find a place near Dayton (Gerbers I believe) that is HUGE. They sell both fresh and saltwater, breed diff species and have all kinds of cool stuff but Dayton is 1 1/2 hrs away. Kinda far to drive for fish but st least it's an idea. 

      Ray I really do appreciate your time and all your help! Thank you so much!!


      Sent from my iPhone

      On Dec 31, 2014, at 12:52 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Okay, I'm glad to hear you topped off the tank with some hot tap water.  You need to get a Python though, to make life easier.  I do have to say though, that with your statement of, "I had to refill the tank with the garden hose and being in Ohio, that water was COLD !!," I saw no other choice in understanding this no other way than you having filled your tank with COLD water < g >.  You made no mention of filling it only 3/4 of the way with cold water.  Well at least only the few nitrifiers left on top of the gravel got the worst of it, and 54 o isn't terribly cold.
       
      OH, you got a Marina Aquavac for Christmas.  GREAT; I guess all you'll need now is to get the right adapters for it, to fit your faucets.  That's gonna save you a lot of work.  I don't know how you managed to carry those full buckets of water up until now.  Yes, I did read that you have two Angelfish in your emergency tank, but had forgotten about them needing to go back into the 55.  That's going to make things more difficult as you can't do the fishless-cycle thing with adding household ammonia.  With only these two fish in the tank though, you shouldn't be getting large amounts of ammonia and when it's finally cycled, it won't be cycled for a very large (like 3 pp) amount of ammonia capable of handling the waste of very many more fish.  It will be cycled to handle the waste level of only these two fish, meaning that you'll need to add the rest of your planned fish slowly, a few at a time, to give the cycle time to increase to the capacity to handle the waste from the additional fish. 
       
      I'm almost wondering if it would be feasible to keep the Angels in the emergency tank during the cycling of the (fishless) cycling of the 55, and making 90% PWC's on the emergency tank twice a week.  How large is this emergency tank, and what did you do with the Whisper?  Maybe you could run the partially-cycled Whisper on the emergency tank.  Alright, I didn't read that far ahead.  I see in your next paragraph that you saved the Whisper's media. 
       
      If you're keeping the two Angelfish in the 55, then Yes disregard my instructions on adding household ammonia -- as I mentioned in my first paragraph.  Ideally, a tank should be cycled to be able to convert about 3 ppm of ammonia produced daily by all your fishes (fishes in this case referring to more than one species of fish, as used in scientific literature).  This 3 ppm ammonia level that a tank would be cycled to handle is roughly what a properly stocked tank of fish would produce in one day.  By this, you can see that the ammonia produced only by the two Angelfish will not grow as large of colonies of nitrifying bacteria that will be needed to handle the waste from a full tank of fishes.  By slowly adding the workload on these bacteria with small additions of fishes, you'll gradually increase the cycle's capacity to handle the waste from more fish. 
       
      I see that any nitrate in the 55 right now is the result of the 5% old water allowed to remain.  Your numbers look good and you may also expect the ammonia to drop as a result of having only two fish to add more ammonia even as much of this in one day; at the very most, if it rises, it shouldn't be by very much.  With the nitrite level being at 0.50 ppm, whereas it was zero yesterday, this shows that these particular bacteria are converting the ammonia.  I'm assuming you're using Prime to prevent any ammonia from being toxic, especially at this higher pH).  If not, continue to use it now.  As the nitrite can only be expected to rise from here on until those bacteria start multiplying more, keep those two TBS (Tablespoons) of salt in the water at all times.
       
      I'd like to hope that the 5 ppm of nitrate is the result of bacteria converting some of this nitrite, but I really doubt that, as nice as that would be.  Noticing your your two hardness readings starting to drop.  Note that nothing in the tank can induce the GH to decrease -- it MUST remain at 8 dGH if that's what it was yesterday.  It is what it is and nothing will change that except water evaporation increasing its value.  We'll need to keep an eye on the KH and any further decrease of it, but with the pH being at 8, you can't use very much buffer to stabilize it at 6 as it may increase the pH when doing so.  We'll play it by ear though and digest these numbers daily.
       
      Ray
           
       
      In a message dated 12/31/2014 11:43:12 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Nope! Do not assume..... I filled the first 75% of the tank with cold water from the hose. I then did the install of the Fluval.  After it was ready I finished filling the tank using hot tap water that I lugged with buckets. I started the Fluval then the heater then lastly the Penguin. The thermometer on the tank read 62 degrees when everything was started. Our cold tap water is 54 degrees.

       I don't have a Python but I do have a Marina Aquavac that I rec'd for Christmas. Up until the night I needed to use it I didn't know that none of the adapters would fit any of our faucets, not even the utility sink in the basement. I did find that one end of the adapter would fit the faucet outside. Being unable to physically lug all that water(I'm on disability),  I chose to use the faucet that was available for the largest portion of the fill. 

      The fourth paragraph of your last post states "as you no longer have fish in this tank" but as I told you in my last reply I do have two fish that I couldn't re-home and that needed to go back into that tank. They are two medium Angels. 

      Yes, the 1st ammonia test was done before I drained the tank. The numbers for today will be at the end of this post. If there was room for the whisper without it looking so overcrowded I would have left it, but with everything else, it just appeared too crowded. I still have it all, including the filter media in a bucket. I had to choose between the Penguin and the Whisper and the Penguin seemed like a better choice. 

      I tested our tap water for nitrates when you asked me to test it for ammonia. The nitrate test result was zero. 
      I'm assuming that your instructions for adding ammonia are based on your thought that there weren't any fish in the tank. Should I disregard?  Ideally what range of numbers are ideal for a community tank? 

      Since this isn't going to be a fishless cycle, should I add others to aid in getting thru the cycle? With the ammonia at 1 should I begin adding Prime? If so, would it be daily or every other day? Do I do PWC's with the numbers at these levels 

      Today's numbers are:
      High PH 8,  Ammonia 1, Nitrites .50, nitrates 5, GH 7, KH 5

      Peg


      On Dec 31, 2014, at 2:26 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@...> so wrote:"

       

      Peg,
       
      To begin with, even though you didn't have the Fluval together yet after you filled the tank, should I assume that you started the Penguin 350 filter?  One other thing, getting right to the gravel, the nitrifiers reside only on the top surface and down to a depth of less than 1/2".  They can't live in anaerobic conditions any deeper than this, so they're not found throughout the gravel.  When you removed the UGF, and when you did the thorough vacuuming of it, you most likely would have mixed in the gravel's top layer with the bulk of the remaining gravel.  It would have been difficult to keep the top layer of gravel intact, as not mixing it with the rest.  At this point, there would be no further concern for not destroying all of the bacteria residing on top of the gravel as it would have ceased to exist when buried under the rest of it.
       
      Now, getting back to the Penguin 350, after you refilled the tank if you started the filter right away you would have subjected the nitrifiers in this filter and on its bio-wheels to extreme shock, dependuing on how cold this new water was.  I's quite likely that you decimated a good percentage of them.  I won't ask you why you chose "to use the garden hose to refill the t, but I will ask why you couldn't have used an in-housÿfe faucet with which you could have mixed in part of this water from the hot water faucet.  I'm still unsure if you have a Python yet or not, but that would have been the thing to use in place of the garden hose if you have one.  At the very least, just a few buckets of warmer water mixed in as the garden hose was filling the tank with COLD water would have helped in preserving your nitrifiers.
       
      While Nitrosomonas (Nitrosomas) can tolerate a temperature down to 35 o - 36 o, and while Nitrobacters can tolerate a temperature down to 38 o - 39 o, to subject them to a sudden temperature of even 45 o, is harsh on them.  Dr. Tim's One & Only supplement is recommended to be kept in the refrigerator -- and the average refrigerator is recommended to be kept at 39 o F, but this product's contents aren't plunged instantly to 39 o when placed in the fridge.  You may have little nitrifying bacteria left to continue the cycle from where it was, and may need to start from scratch.  Actually, Nitrosomonos thrive at their best at a temperature of approximately 86 o, and Nitrobacters thrive best at a temperature of approximately 89 o -- some reports even say slightly higher for each.  While they still do well at the 78 o -- 80 o temperatures where we need them, this may illustrate why a sudden drop to such COLD temperatures would be devastating to them. 
       
      Well at least you did a great job in getting rid of all the debris in the gravel -- which was sorely need to do.  As you no longer have fish in this tank, cycling it should be fairly straight-forward.  So, going to your water testing in your first paragraph here, I'm assuming that these ammonia tests were done before you even removed the UGF plates -- since you give other figures towards the end of your message, of the parameters of the new water.  If the pH of your old water was still down near pH 6.8, this fully explains why you had zero Free-Ammonia.  At this pH, all of it will be in the form of Ammonium -- your Total Ammonia will be 100% Ammonium.  That the test came up as showing a deep purple, shows that it was off your API test chart scale having an upper limit of 8.0 ppm, as I stated that I suspected.  No, I've never ever seen a level that high.
       
      I thought you may have decided on removing the Whisper filter, just by your enthusiasm for doing this when you posted last.  I'm not sure if you thought about saving whatever bacteria that had developed in it up to this point, which you could have now used to seed the Penguin 350.     
       
      Getting to your test results of the refilled tank, as your regular pH test kit only goes up to pH 7.6, and since you high pH test result is so much higher, your regular test result is useless as we know the pH is much higher than pH 7.6.  There's really no reason to even consider it.  We know your tank's pH is 8.0.  With your tap water testing at zero ammonia, and with your tank water now testing at 1.0 ppm -- AFTER making a 95% PWC -- this begins to show just how much ammonia had accumulated in your old water, if the 5% residual old water shows a level of 1.0 ppm after being diluted by a rate of 19 to 1 by the fresh water.  It's a bit surprising you have any nitrate, but this is obviously due to the small amount of old water left in the tank (unless your tap water contains some nitrate).  With zero nitrite again, this is to be expected having mostly all new water, although there's probably a trace of it left from the old water that's too small to test for.  Your two hardness (GH & KH) levels are really quite good.  Some would say they're just about ideal for average community tank fish.  Your KH isn't too low that it doesn't have at least moderate buffering capacity -- it does.
       
      So now, with 1.0 ppm of ammonia right now, you'll need to increase it to 3.0 ppm by adding 3 or 4 drops of clear household ammonia per gallon (not sudsy, as I've said before).  Monitor the ammonia level daily and add more ammonia as need to keep the level up at 3.0 ppm each day.  At first, you won't need to add much, if any, but as time goes by you'll need to add a bit more each day, until it reaches a point where you'll need to add the full 3 - 4 drops daily; the test will show zero ppm on these following days, showing that the bacteria are in sufficient amounts that they can handle this amount of ammonia given off from fish if you were to introduce them.  As your tank would be fully cycled at this point, this IS the time to add your fish and to stop adding any more ammonia.  You'll first need to do enough of a water change to remove the build up of nitrate, which should be brought down to at least 40 ppm, or preferably lower.  Right now, this is just the start and we'll guide you as the cycle progresses. 
       
      Ray 
       
       
       
      In a message dated 12/30/2014 11:10:10 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hey there!! 
      I finally rec'd the Seachem Ammonia Testing Kit. I tested the Aquarium water and also my tap. Both free and total ammonia tests show 0 ammonia.  The Aquarium tested with free ammonia 0, total ammonia was deep purple, darker than the darkest blue on the color strip. Have you ever seen anything like that??

      I guess the aquarium count is a moot point now because last night I started removing the UGF and vacuuming all the substrate. By the time I had done a thorough cleaning about 95% of the water was gone. 
      I had to refill the tank with the garden hose and being in Ohio, that water was COLD!! I still had to put the Fluval together so I let it sit for awhile. Was hoping it would warm up a little bit at least. My tank is a Marineland 55 gal with the middle brace. The lid has those cut-out spaces on each side for filters etc....the right side is filled with the Penguin 350 and then on the left I had that whisper that would share space with Fluval. It was crowded and looked it so I pulled the a Whisper out and put the Fluval in the space. Taking the Whisper down gave me opportunity to space the Fluval tubes apart and it all looks nice and neat. 

      Although I vacuumed the gravel really well I didn't add water and rinse it. I was trying not to destroy ALL the bacteria. I also left all 4 filters and both bio-wheels in the Penguin without rinsing them. After I had filled the tank with about 6-8 inches of water I stirred the gravel up to see if there were still going to be a lot of debris or any fuzzles floating around and there weren't. It looked good. I was glad because I really didn't want ti rinse all the gravel if I didn't have to. 

      The only fish I had left were the two that were in the emergency tank I set up. I didn't have filter media to maintain that tank so I knew I needed to move them.  Today the tank was up to temp so I treated with Prime them added a  full bottle of Safe Start (I didn't know until tonight that Amazon carried Dr.Tims or I would've ordered - going to order this week to keep on on hand). Two hours later I moved the Angels over to the 55 gal. So far, so good. 

      Early this evening I tested the tank water. This is what I came up with:  PH 7.6,  HPH 8, Ammonia 1, Nitrites 0, Nitrates 5, GH 8, KH 6.  Do you think maybe the stuff left in the gravel along with what was in the Penguins filter media are enough to maybe take this forward in the cycle? 

      Peg
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      On Dec 29, 2014, at 1:10 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.comwrote:

       

      Hi Peg,
       
      Yes, the holidays are just fine and now with New Year's Day coming up, it will just serve to extend them for another half a week.  Enjoy them while you can.  Yes, sooner or later things will normalize.
       
      Rehoming your remaining fish should make things much easier from here on in.   I'm eager to see what your ammonia tests out to be when you Seachem kit arrives.  Typically, and unless your water supplier  gives you super chloraminated water, most water companies use a concentration of around 4 ppm chloramine in their drinking water.  As the chlorine and the ammonia combine at a ratio of 7.6 to 1, you probably have about 0.5 ppm of ammonia in your tap water, but apparently nothing excessive above that.  Good to see that your ammonia test results are coming up minimal (zero?).  One thing I notice is that the high pH test resuolt of your tap water is pH 7.4 -- and you high pH test result of your aquarium water is exactly the same -- yet your low pH tests of these two different water shows a difference of pH 0.8.  I'm not understanding this at all.  While each test kit tests in a different range, they both should show a direct relationship to each other.  There should be no large difference in one test if the other test remains stable.  Maybe (hopefully) Dawn can join us to figure this one out as maybe I'm missing something, or else maybe there been an error in reading the tests.
       
      While the test colors for the nitrite may be "close" to either 2.0 ppm or 5.0 ppm, there's a huge difference in toxicity if fish were still involved.  Now, with you nitrate previously testing out at 20 ppm even through several PWC's you've made, only to test at 10.0 ppm now, does not seem possible since there's more nitrite available now to be converted into nitrate.  Have you made another large PWC just prior to testing for nitrate? 
       
      Without having any fish in the tank now, rest assured that you don't need to make those PWC's to keep the organic waste parameters down.  You will need to monitor them, to maintain the ammonia at a minimum level of about 3.0 ppm, but you no longer need to be concerned much about it being up at 8.0 ppm -- unless it tends to remain there (which I suspect it may, due to possible excess organic matter in the water).  But, if all starts to go well, as more (if more) ammonia is being converted, you'll need to add a small amount of clear (not sudsy) household ammonia to the tank to keep the level up at 3.0 ppm.  This is done by daily additions of household ammonia of from 3 to 4 drops per gallon to maintain this level constantly, until you see that this same addition of ammonia every day results in a zero reading the following day.  At that time, you'll know your tank is cycled.
       
      With the ammonia at 8.0 ppm, and with the level of debris as being able to be stirred up and making the water cloudy -- and exhibiting organic solids in the form of these "seeds/fuzz balls" -- this is waaay too much debris to have in any tank.  Yes, this is rotting food, and is where your high ammonia is coming from.  And yes, with this enlightenment, you do have a looong way to go, not necessarily in cycling the tank (as the higher ammonia should assist it), but just to make the tank livable for fish.  I wasn't aware there was this much debris.  Without fish in the tank though, this will make it easier (BTW, you can discontinue the Prime at this time when making smaller PWC's but do use it with the extra-large PWC's so as not to kill the bacteria). 
       
      With addressing this problem, and with your intention of removing the UGF, a thorough stirring of the entire gravel bed (as opposed to vacuuming the gravel) would be in the tank's best interest, followed immediately with a 60% PWC while most of the debris is still in suspension. You need to get as much debris out of this tank as possible -- and it can be done now that you know what's needed.  It would serve no purpose to dump all of the water as that would remove all of the ammonia (food for the bacteria), but you will probably need to stir the water up again to remove the remainder of the debris that settled, via another PWC -- as large as maintaining a 3.0 ppm ammonia level will allow -- or removing even more water but replacing the removed ammonia with the household type.  When you get ready to make this second PWC -- and there's not an immediate rush  to do so -- test the ammonia level and post it on here if you're not sure of how much water to change.  Using household ammonia to supplement the needed ammonia level is not hard to do, however.  You've got to get all of that debris out of there though as is sounds to be extremely excessive.
       
      Now as for the bio-wheel filters, while using another Marineland 350 in place of the Whisper would give you more media chambers, the bio-wheels themselves are by their very nature notoriously slower in becoming populated with nitrifying bacteria.  There's nothing wrong with your Whisper 40 filter at all, and HOB filters are quite efficient.  Getting right to one of your last questions in this message, yes certainly, established (with bacteria) filter media can be transplanted from one filter to another and often IS.  Only the different shapes of the different filters may cause some difficulty in doing this, but if that's the intent it can even be trimmed with a scissors to make it fit.  If it were me, I'd stick with the Whisper filter, since it's been up and running through all this time -- even if it was gunked up for some period.  The only thing different I might have done would have been to use a Hagen AquaClear HOB (Hang-On-Back) filter from the start as it's about the best of this design, but this outside HOB filter concept is still one of the best by any manufacturer.
       
      As for your last question, while I have no actual experience with Safe Start Plus -- and I always prefer to base my recommendations and suggestions on personal experience -- from all I've read on it, it seems to be a viable additive capable of supplying nitrifying bacteria.  I've already suggested the additive that I'd use, that being Dr. Tim's One and Only, which Dawn doesn't approve of quite as well as the Bio product she prefers.  
       
      Ray 
             
       
      In a message dated 12/28/2014 10:58:38 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hi!! I hope you had a nice holiday! I have to admit that I'll be glad after New Years when life can get back to normal! 

      I caught a chance to re-home the rest of my fish and not knowing what direction we were going with the tank, I took it. A friend was able to adopt all with the exception of the 2 medium Angels. I set up my 5 gallon and have moved them in there temporarily. The plan is that they won't be there past tomorrow. 

      I haven't received my Seachem Ammonia test kit. I guess the delivery was delayed due to the holiday but I'm hoping it'll be here tomorrow.  I did test our tap water and the numbers were: PH 7.6, High PH 7.4, Ammonia 0, GH 8, KH 6
      The tank has been running empty since the night of the 26th so today I tested everything to see where it stands. Currently PH 6.8, high PH 7.4, ammonia 8, nitrites either 2 or 5 - the color was so close I couldn't pinpoint it, nitrates 10, GH 10, KH 2

      I guess I feel like we've got way too much debris because when stirring up the rocks it becomes cloudy and then we see these little fuzz balls that look like they have a seed in the center. For some reason I believe these to be the excess food that's rotten or moldy??  

      I re-read your post and see that the rise of nitrites means more of the ammonia is being converted. Even with that it still seems like we have a long way to go. And I worry that the nitrites/nitrates will never catch up. 

      I definitely want to get the UGF out of the tank. No don't want it to interrupt the Fluval. Removing it leaves us with the Marineland bio-wheel 350 and the whisper to work with the Fluval. I had ordered another Marineland 350 which I thought was going to be used on the frog tank but it was too big. I was sending it back to Amazon but they don't want to deal with the return so they told me to me to keep it, along with a full box of filters. 
       I was wondering if we could pull the UGF, vacuum all up under the gravel and then swap out the whisper for the new 350? That would give me those 2-350's and the Fluval 206. Do you think that would blow the fish around too much? I don't have a lot of confidence that the whisper for some reason. I'm new & all I know now is what I'm taught and then there is what I read, which may or may not be true.  I don't see the whisper referenced a lot or as talked up a lot. This causes me to doubt it's capability I guess. I have a chance to choose between the extra 350 and the whisper. If it were you, which would you consider to be a better pick. I know the whisper has filters that have been working and have that good bacteria in them. The new 350 would have 4 filter slots filled with new media. I wondered, could we switch and use the 2-350's? Is it possible to pull 1 set of filters from the current 350 and transplant them to the new one? The other two slots in each of the 350's would then get new media? Can you do that, transplant the filter media to a new filter so it's not so "new?" If possible, would spreading out the media, cleaning up the debris drawn under the UGF, doing a water change - either full or a percentage and adding the Fluval allow me to put some fish in and eventually get thru a full cycle?  

      When I started out it was for the African Dwarf Frogs. I only had a 5 gal tank for awhile and several times I had to dump the water, change the filters and start over. The frogs were over crowded and over fed so that tank never cycled. It was frustrating. They're now in a 10 gallon and I'm working to get thru a cycle. I feel like I'm finally getting somewhere. 

      The excessive ammonia I believe is from a combination of too many fish too early and over feeding. I know we were giving them the sinking pellets, flake food, algae wafers, mini-bites and bottom feeders food. And to make matters worse, they were getting it several times a day per the instructions on the containers. 
       
      If dumping part or all of the water would you suggest adding a bottle of Safe Start Plus after the fish get back in! Any other additives you'd suggest? 

      Thanks, 
      Peg


      On Dec 26, 2014, at 11:51 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

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      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56345 From: sevenspringss Date: 12/31/2014
      Subject: Re: Questions on re-establishing tank
      AOL Email
      No biggie on the hot water miscommunication.  As you saw, I included a big Grin at the need of my statement.  You just forgot to add that little detail (LOL).  That Aquavac is going to save you a humongous amount of work; those 5 gallon buckets weigh nearly 40 pounds when nearly full.  I'd call that heavy! 
       
      I see what you mean about the emergency tank being only a 5 gallon hex.  Not really meant for any fish long-term, although holding a fish or two in quarantine requires a full month to be assured they're disease-free.  BTW, I hope you're aware that such emergency tanks' main purpose -- besides being used as a hospital tank -- is to use them to isolate and observe new fish for a month before adding them to your main tank so that you don't spread any possible disease to your other fish.  As 5 gallons is small, you might watch for PetSmart's periodic $1 per gallon tank sales.  You could pick up a 10 gallon tank for 10 Bucks at those times. 
       
      Looks like the Whisper is entirely out of the question for this small tank -- and the dried out media no longer contains live nitrifiers.  As for holding the Angels in this hex tank, cycling the 55 would take up to 6 weeks so this would be long-term, but it would be much less stressful on the fish, not subjecting them to abnormal ammonia levels.  Even ammonium is toxic, albeit much less so than ammonia.  IF you were to cycle the tank with fish in it, it would be much more of a benefit in using more for this purpose than less, as the finished cycle would be able to convert a larger amount of ammonia.  BUT, as long as we now have this fish-less cycling option, we NEVER advocate cycling a tank with fish if it can be avoided.  It is easier, and surer, to do a fish-less cycle -- and no stress to the fish.
       
      You do understand it correctly.  After the tank is cycled with the two Angelfish, you'll need add any other fish slowly so that the filter can catch up with handling the increased load.  Yes also, on cycling the tank with fish being a big pain where the sun don't shine -- and with inadequate results.  The benefits of a fish-less cycle are, that you're not subjecting the fish to any stress and you can have the cycles' end result being capable of converting any amount of ammonia that you anticipate your eventual bioload will be when finally adding your fish.  An example, you could cycle the tank so that the nitrifiers will convert 10 ppm daily and if your eventual load of fish only produce 3 ppm of ammonia daily the worst scenario is that a portion of the bacteria will die off until the remainder can subsist on only 3 ppm produced daily.  You can (and should) add all of your fish at the time your tank is fully cycled.  When cycling with fish, it's a constant catch-up game in needing to slowly increase the cycle.  
       
      Getting back to holding the Angels in the 5 gallon tank, I'm picturing their body size (without fins) as being about 2" in diameter -- correct me if I'm wrong.  Changing out 90% of their water each time that's needed doesn't need to be stressful.  If doing this, with being sure the Aquavac is surely attached to this tank, just run the water more slowly -- and add the needed amount of Prime just before you turn the faucets on.  You need to be sure you can control the temperature properly though.  If you can't, have the Aquavac fill the 5 gallon bucket that you'd keep along side the 5 gallon tank and then just pour it in slowly from there after making sure the temperature's correct.  No carrying the bucket any long distance.  Normally, I don't suggest doing 90% PWC's, as for one thing they're not generally needed. but being a strong proponent of the notion that you can never change too much water (the more fresh water the fish are living in, the better they'll thrive), I've been doing 90% PWC's on all the tanks in my hatchery for about 50 years and 40% to 50% PWC's for the preceding 17 years -- and I've had about 3200 gallons in my tanks for the last 25 years (I cut back < g >).  
       
      As for the maximum fish load for your tank, it's not just the number of your fish this depends on but it's also their size (their full eventual size when they reach maturity) -- as they need the space to eventually grow to their maximum size.  You can't go by just the size they are now as that won't allow them room to grow.  There's a rule of thumb estimate that works fairly well for fish up to 3" (when full grown) and which works better for slenderer fish (like Tetras as an example) rather than more heavily-bodied fish (like Platies as an example), and that's to consider 1" per gallon.  While you want a nicely filled tank of fish though, you should never max it out with fish but always leave some room for contingencies -- like power outages during which you have no surface circulation to exchanges gases (carbon dioxide and oxygen).  You could have five 1 1/2" Cardinal Tetras, five 2" Zebra Danios, four 2 1/2" Cory's, two 5" Angelfish,  five 1 3/4" Rasboras and three 2 3/4" Swordtails as one example.  This would total to about 50" of fish.  You need to learn how not to overfeed though.  As I stated a while back, feed just enough that they'll clean up in 5 minutes. 
       
      Ordinarily, salt is not needed in the freshwater aquarium, even though it does have purposes at specific times and is useful in helping treat some diseases.  Some hobbyists use a token amount of 1 TBL of salt per five gallons -- which is not necessary in the slightest.  When cycling a tank with fish, and with subjecting them to possible high levels of ammonia and/or nitrite, even a much smaller amount of salt -- like a pinch per gallon (or less) -- will prevent both ammonia poisoning and nitrite poisoning.  Even the very small amount of 1 TBL of salt per about 25 gallons I recommended can really be reduced to 1 TBL for the whole 55 gallons, although I wanted to ensure the fish would be "doubly safe" (LOL).  Still, 1 TBL of salt per 25 gallons (actually, per 27.5 gallons) is minute.  You only need to be concerned with salt if you're having fish in the 55.  The same goes for Prime, which would be safer to add every day rather than every other day.  Yes, you have that correct, in the amount of salt you need to add back after these PWC amounts. 
       
      If fish-less cycling, and maintaining a 3 ppm level of ammonia requiring the addition of 3 to 4 drops per gallon, you only need to add 3 (or 4) teaspoons of household ammonia to the tank (drops can vary in size).  A teaspoon holds 50 drops.  As it needs to be maintained there until it reaches a point where all 3 ppm will be consumed by the following day, if for instance the ammonia drops to 2 ppm on the following day, you just need to add back about 1 teaspoon of household ammonia to bring it back up to 3 ppm. 
       
      You're not a pain as long as you can put this stuff to good use.  I don't mind giving some advice if it helps you succeed.  That's part of why I moderate here, to help hobbyists like you become successful at keeping fish.  It sounds like it would pay to drive to Gerbers when you're ready for more fish.  You could try PetSmart or Petco if you saw something you really liked that wasn't found at Gerbers, but these fish should definitely be quarantined until you can be sure they're disease-free. 
       
      HAPPY NEW YEAR,
       
      Ray
       
              
       
      In a message dated 12/31/2014 4:38:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      I'm sorry I wasn't clear and didn't tell you that I did add hot tap water to the tank. 
      I think the Aquavac is going to be s big help. Even though I only use a 4 & 5 gal bucket to fill, they're really heavy. Even without the use of the suction caused by the water valve, it drained really fast. I got a 50 ft hose so I'll be able to hook up to our utility sink I the basement. When I have to add water for the frogs I pull samples and use the digital thermometer to try to get the water as close as possible to what it is in the tank.  
      My DH is on his way right now to the hardware store to get the right adapter so I'll be able to use next time I have a water change. 
      Keeping the Angels in the emergency tank wouldn't be so bad if it were bigger. It's only a 5 gal hex so it was really crowded in there with the two fish and the whisper like HOB filter I had to rig.  The filter took up a lot of room. I thought about moving the whisper over there but it's a tad deeper do it would crowd the fish even more. Since it's not long term I guess I could move them back and do the fishless cycle. 

      It seems like going through a cycle with two fish will be a bigger pain in the end because if I understand correctly, after the tank cycles I'll have to add new fish really slowly so the filters can catch up to the new amount of stuff in the water. If I add too quickly then I'll screw it all up and possibly have to go through another cycle??

      If that's true then it seems I should add some new fish now, maybe some corys(?) or I should get these fish out and just do what's needed for the fishless cycle.  Let me ask you this.... In the long run which choice will make the aquarium a more stable home. Are there add'l benefits to the fishless cycle?

      After cycling, what is the maximum number of fish that should be in the tank? I don't even know what the correct capacity is but I know I don't want to put too many fish in there and ever get back to the place it was. 

      If I move the fish back to the emergency tank should I try to use the filter media from the whisper? It's dried out now. Can the Bacteria live in a dry environment or would it have needed to remain moist? 

      I'm surprised at adding salt into the the freshwater tank. What is its purpose?  
      If the fish stay in will I do PWCs? Do if I did a 50% water change then I'd add back 1 TBS but if I did s 25% water change I'd add back 1/2 TBS salt? 

      I'm also surprised at adding household ammonia to the tank but I did but some yesterday. It's just so strong that I wouldn't have ever thought it would be safe in an aquarium. 

      I am using Prime but wondered if I should add daily or every other day? I'm sorry I'm such a PITA! I'm not trying to be. Just trying to understand and rebound from the bad info and guidance I had received.  I also need to try to find a good place to buy fish. The only places I know of are Petsmart, Petco, Jacks etc.... I tried looking for privately owned shops but I can't locate any in the Columbus area. I did find a place near Dayton (Gerbers I believe) that is HUGE. They sell both fresh and saltwater, breed diff species and have all kinds of cool stuff but Dayton is 1 1/2 hrs away. Kinda far to drive for fish but st least it's an idea. 

      Ray I really do appreciate your time and all your help! Thank you so much!!


      Sent from my iPhone

      On Dec 31, 2014, at 12:52 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Okay, I'm glad to hear you topped off the tank with some hot tap water.  You need to get a Python though, to make life easier.  I do have to say though, that with your statement of, "I had to refill the tank with the garden hose and being in Ohio, that water was COLD !!," I saw no other choice in understanding this no other way than you having filled your tank with COLD water < g >.  You made no mention of filling it only 3/4 of the way with cold water.  Well at least only the few nitrifiers left on top of the gravel got the worst of it, and 54 o isn't terribly cold.
       
      OH, you got a Marina Aquavac for Christmas.  GREAT; I guess all you'll need now is to get the right adapters for it, to fit your faucets.  That's gonna save you a lot of work.  I don't know how you managed to carry those full buckets of water up until now.  Yes, I did read that you have two Angelfish in your emergency tank, but had forgotten about them needing to go back into the 55.  That's going to make things more difficult as you can't do the fishless-cycle thing with adding household ammonia.  With only these two fish in the tank though, you shouldn't be getting large amounts of ammonia and when it's finally cycled, it won't be cycled for a very large (like 3 pp) amount of ammonia capable of handling the waste of very many more fish.  It will be cycled to handle the waste level of only these two fish, meaning that you'll need to add the rest of your planned fish slowly, a few at a time, to give the cycle time to increase to the capacity to handle the waste from the additional fish. 
       
      I'm almost wondering if it would be feasible to keep the Angels in the emergency tank during the cycling of the (fishless) cycling of the 55, and making 90% PWC's on the emergency tank twice a week.  How large is this emergency tank, and what did you do with the Whisper?  Maybe you could run the partially-cycled Whisper on the emergency tank.  Alright, I didn't read that far ahead.  I see in your next paragraph that you saved the Whisper's media. 
       
      If you're keeping the two Angelfish in the 55, then Yes disregard my instructions on adding household ammonia -- as I mentioned in my first paragraph.  Ideally, a tank should be cycled to be able to convert about 3 ppm of ammonia produced daily by all your fishes (fishes in this case referring to more than one species of fish, as used in scientific literature).  This 3 ppm ammonia level that a tank would be cycled to handle is roughly what a properly stocked tank of fish would produce in one day.  By this, you can see that the ammonia produced only by the two Angelfish will not grow as large of colonies of nitrifying bacteria that will be needed to handle the waste from a full tank of fishes.  By slowly adding the workload on these bacteria with small additions of fishes, you'll gradually increase the cycle's capacity to handle the waste from more fish. 
       
      I see that any nitrate in the 55 right now is the result of the 5% old water allowed to remain.  Your numbers look good and you may also expect the ammonia to drop as a result of having only two fish to add more ammonia even as much of this in one day; at the very most, if it rises, it shouldn't be by very much.  With the nitrite level being at 0.50 ppm, whereas it was zero yesterday, this shows that these particular bacteria are converting the ammonia.  I'm assuming you're using Prime to prevent any ammonia from being toxic, especially at this higher pH).  If not, continue to use it now.  As the nitrite can only be expected to rise from here on until those bacteria start multiplying more, keep those two TBS (Tablespoons) of salt in the water at all times.
       
      I'd like to hope that the 5 ppm of nitrate is the result of bacteria converting some of this nitrite, but I really doubt that, as nice as that would be.  Noticing your your two hardness readings starting to drop.  Note that nothing in the tank can induce the GH to decrease -- it MUST remain at 8 dGH if that's what it was yesterday.  It is what it is and nothing will change that except water evaporation increasing its value.  We'll need to keep an eye on the KH and any further decrease of it, but with the pH being at 8, you can't use very much buffer to stabilize it at 6 as it may increase the pH when doing so.  We'll play it by ear though and digest these numbers daily.
       
      Ray
           
       
      In a message dated 12/31/2014 11:43:12 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Nope! Do not assume..... I filled the first 75% of the tank with cold water from the hose. I then did the install of the Fluval.  After it was ready I finished filling the tank using hot tap water that I lugged with buckets. I started the Fluval then the heater then lastly the Penguin. The thermometer on the tank read 62 degrees when everything was started. Our cold tap water is 54 degrees.

       I don't have a Python but I do have a Marina Aquavac that I rec'd for Christmas. Up until the night I needed to use it I didn't know that none of the adapters would fit any of our faucets, not even the utility sink in the basement. I did find that one end of the adapter would fit the faucet outside. Being unable to physically lug all that water(I'm on disability),  I chose to use the faucet that was available for the largest portion of the fill. 

      The fourth paragraph of your last post states "as you no longer have fish in this tank" but as I told you in my last reply I do have two fish that I couldn't re-home and that needed to go back into that tank. They are two medium Angels. 

      Yes, the 1st ammonia test was done before I drained the tank. The numbers for today will be at the end of this post. If there was room for the whisper without it looking so overcrowded I would have left it, but with everything else, it just appeared too crowded. I still have it all, including the filter media in a bucket. I had to choose between the Penguin and the Whisper and the Penguin seemed like a better choice. 

      I tested our tap water for nitrates when you asked me to test it for ammonia. The nitrate test result was zero. 
      I'm assuming that your instructions for adding ammonia are based on your thought that there weren't any fish in the tank. Should I disregard?  Ideally what range of numbers are ideal for a community tank? 

      Since this isn't going to be a fishless cycle, should I add others to aid in getting thru the cycle? With the ammonia at 1 should I begin adding Prime? If so, would it be daily or every other day? Do I do PWC's with the numbers at these levels 

      Today's numbers are:
      High PH 8,  Ammonia 1, Nitrites .50, nitrates 5, GH 7, KH 5

      Peg


      On Dec 31, 2014, at 2:26 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@...> so wrote:"

       

      Peg,
       
      To begin with, even though you didn't have the Fluval together yet after you filled the tank, should I assume that you started the Penguin 350 filter?  One other thing, getting right to the gravel, the nitrifiers reside only on the top surface and down to a depth of less than 1/2".  They can't live in anaerobic conditions any deeper than this, so they're not found throughout the gravel.  When you removed the UGF, and when you did the thorough vacuuming of it, you most likely would have mixed in the gravel's top layer with the bulk of the remaining gravel.  It would have been difficult to keep the top layer of gravel intact, as not mixing it with the rest.  At this point, there would be no further concern for not destroying all of the bacteria residing on top of the gravel as it would have ceased to exist when buried under the rest of it.
       
      Now, getting back to the Penguin 350, after you refilled the tank if you started the filter right away you would have subjected the nitrifiers in this filter and on its bio-wheels to extreme shock, dependuing on how cold this new water was.  I's quite likely that you decimated a good percentage of them.  I won't ask you why you chose "to use the garden hose to refill the t, but I will ask why you couldn't have used an in-housÿfe faucet with which you could have mixed in part of this water from the hot water faucet.  I'm still unsure if you have a Python yet or not, but that would have been the thing to use in place of the garden hose if you have one.  At the very least, just a few buckets of warmer water mixed in as the garden hose was filling the tank with COLD water would have helped in preserving your nitrifiers.
       
      While Nitrosomonas (Nitrosomas) can tolerate a temperature down to 35 o - 36 o, and while Nitrobacters can tolerate a temperature down to 38 o - 39 o, to subject them to a sudden temperature of even 45 o, is harsh on them.  Dr. Tim's One & Only supplement is recommended to be kept in the refrigerator -- and the average refrigerator is recommended to be kept at 39 o F, but this product's contents aren't plunged instantly to 39 o when placed in the fridge.  You may have little nitrifying bacteria left to continue the cycle from where it was, and may need to start from scratch.  Actually, Nitrosomonos thrive at their best at a temperature of approximately 86 o, and Nitrobacters thrive best at a temperature of approximately 89 o -- some reports even say slightly higher for each.  While they still do well at the 78 o -- 80 o temperatures where we need them, this may illustrate why a sudden drop to such COLD temperatures would be devastating to them. 
       
      Well at least you did a great job in getting rid of all the debris in the gravel -- which was sorely need to do.  As you no longer have fish in this tank, cycling it should be fairly straight-forward.  So, going to your water testing in your first paragraph here, I'm assuming that these ammonia tests were done before you even removed the UGF plates -- since you give other figures towards the end of your message, of the parameters of the new water.  If the pH of your old water was still down near pH 6.8, this fully explains why you had zero Free-Ammonia.  At this pH, all of it will be in the form of Ammonium -- your Total Ammonia will be 100% Ammonium.  That the test came up as showing a deep purple, shows that it was off your API test chart scale having an upper limit of 8.0 ppm, as I stated that I suspected.  No, I've never ever seen a level that high.
       
      I thought you may have decided on removing the Whisper filter, just by your enthusiasm for doing this when you posted last.  I'm not sure if you thought about saving whatever bacteria that had developed in it up to this point, which you could have now used to seed the Penguin 350.     
       
      Getting to your test results of the refilled tank, as your regular pH test kit only goes up to pH 7.6, and since you high pH test result is so much higher, your regular test result is useless as we know the pH is much higher than pH 7.6.  There's really no reason to even consider it.  We know your tank's pH is 8.0.  With your tap water testing at zero ammonia, and with your tank water now testing at 1.0 ppm -- AFTER making a 95% PWC -- this begins to show just how much ammonia had accumulated in your old water, if the 5% residual old water shows a level of 1.0 ppm after being diluted by a rate of 19 to 1 by the fresh water.  It's a bit surprising you have any nitrate, but this is obviously due to the small amount of old water left in the tank (unless your tap water contains some nitrate).  With zero nitrite again, this is to be expected having mostly all new water, although there's probably a trace of it left from the old water that's too small to test for.  Your two hardness (GH & KH) levels are really quite good.  Some would say they're just about ideal for average community tank fish.  Your KH isn't too low that it doesn't have at least moderate buffering capacity -- it does.
       
      So now, with 1.0 ppm of ammonia right now, you'll need to increase it to 3.0 ppm by adding 3 or 4 drops of clear household ammonia per gallon (not sudsy, as I've said before).  Monitor the ammonia level daily and add more ammonia as need to keep the level up at 3.0 ppm each day.  At first, you won't need to add much, if any, but as time goes by you'll need to add a bit more each day, until it reaches a point where you'll need to add the full 3 - 4 drops daily; the test will show zero ppm on these following days, showing that the bacteria are in sufficient amounts that they can handle this amount of ammonia given off from fish if you were to introduce them.  As your tank would be fully cycled at this point, this IS the time to add your fish and to stop adding any more ammonia.  You'll first need to do enough of a water change to remove the build up of nitrate, which should be brought down to at least 40 ppm, or preferably lower.  Right now, this is just the start and we'll guide you as the cycle progresses. 
       
      Ray 
       
       
       
      In a message dated 12/30/2014 11:10:10 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hey there!! 
      I finally rec'd the Seachem Ammonia Testing Kit. I tested the Aquarium water and also my tap. Both free and total ammonia tests show 0 ammonia.  The Aquarium tested with free ammonia 0, total ammonia was deep purple, darker than the darkest blue on the color strip. Have you ever seen anything like that??

      I guess the aquarium count is a moot point now because last night I started removing the UGF and vacuuming all the substrate. By the time I had done a thorough cleaning about 95% of the water was gone. 
      I had to refill the tank with the garden hose and being in Ohio, that water was COLD!! I still had to put the Fluval together so I let it sit for awhile. Was hoping it would warm up a little bit at least. My tank is a Marineland 55 gal with the middle brace. The lid has those cut-out spaces on each side for filters etc....the right side is filled with the Penguin 350 and then on the left I had that whisper that would share space with Fluval. It was crowded and looked it so I pulled the a Whisper out and put the Fluval in the space. Taking the Whisper down gave me opportunity to space the Fluval tubes apart and it all looks nice and neat. 

      Although I vacuumed the gravel really well I didn't add water and rinse it. I was trying not to destroy ALL the bacteria. I also left all 4 filters and both bio-wheels in the Penguin without rinsing them. After I had filled the tank with about 6-8 inches of water I stirred the gravel up to see if there were still going to be a lot of debris or any fuzzles floating around and there weren't. It looked good. I was glad because I really didn't want ti rinse all the gravel if I didn't have to. 

      The only fish I had left were the two that were in the emergency tank I set up. I didn't have filter media to maintain that tank so I knew I needed to move them.  Today the tank was up to temp so I treated with Prime them added a  full bottle of Safe Start (I didn't know until tonight that Amazon carried Dr.Tims or I would've ordered - going to order this week to keep on on hand). Two hours later I moved the Angels over to the 55 gal. So far, so good. 

      Early this evening I tested the tank water. This is what I came up with:  PH 7.6,  HPH 8, Ammonia 1, Nitrites 0, Nitrates 5, GH 8, KH 6.  Do you think maybe the stuff left in the gravel along with what was in the Penguins filter media are enough to maybe take this forward in the cycle? 

      Peg
      Soon Opening: Hoopin' It Up Designs
                                Custom Embroidery & Embellishments

      On Dec 29, 2014, at 1:10 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.comwrote:

       

      Hi Peg,
       
      Yes, the holidays are just fine and now with New Year's Day coming up, it will just serve to extend them for another half a week.  Enjoy them while you can.  Yes, sooner or later things will normalize.
       
      Rehoming your remaining fish should make things much easier from here on in.   I'm eager to see what your ammonia tests out to be when you Seachem kit arrives.  Typically, and unless your water supplier  gives you super chloraminated water, most water companies use a concentration of around 4 ppm chloramine in their drinking water.  As the chlorine and the ammonia combine at a ratio of 7.6 to 1, you probably have about 0.5 ppm of ammonia in your tap water, but apparently nothing excessive above that.  Good to see that your ammonia test results are coming up minimal (zero?).  One thing I notice is that the high pH test resuolt of your tap water is pH 7.4 -- and you high pH test result of your aquarium water is exactly the same -- yet your low pH tests of these two different water shows a difference of pH 0.8.  I'm not understanding this at all.  While each test kit tests in a different range, they both should show a direct relationship to each other.  There should be no large difference in one test if the other test remains stable.  Maybe (hopefully) Dawn can join us to figure this one out as maybe I'm missing something, or else maybe there been an error in reading the tests.
       
      While the test colors for the nitrite may be "close" to either 2.0 ppm or 5.0 ppm, there's a huge difference in toxicity if fish were still involved.  Now, with you nitrate previously testing out at 20 ppm even through several PWC's you've made, only to test at 10.0 ppm now, does not seem possible since there's more nitrite available now to be converted into nitrate.  Have you made another large PWC just prior to testing for nitrate? 
       
      Without having any fish in the tank now, rest assured that you don't need to make those PWC's to keep the organic waste parameters down.  You will need to monitor them, to maintain the ammonia at a minimum level of about 3.0 ppm, but you no longer need to be concerned much about it being up at 8.0 ppm -- unless it tends to remain there (which I suspect it may, due to possible excess organic matter in the water).  But, if all starts to go well, as more (if more) ammonia is being converted, you'll need to add a small amount of clear (not sudsy) household ammonia to the tank to keep the level up at 3.0 ppm.  This is done by daily additions of household ammonia of from 3 to 4 drops per gallon to maintain this level constantly, until you see that this same addition of ammonia every day results in a zero reading the following day.  At that time, you'll know your tank is cycled.
       
      With the ammonia at 8.0 ppm, and with the level of debris as being able to be stirred up and making the water cloudy -- and exhibiting organic solids in the form of these "seeds/fuzz balls" -- this is waaay too much debris to have in any tank.  Yes, this is rotting food, and is where your high ammonia is coming from.  And yes, with this enlightenment, you do have a looong way to go, not necessarily in cycling the tank (as the higher ammonia should assist it), but just to make the tank livable for fish.  I wasn't aware there was this much debris.  Without fish in the tank though, this will make it easier (BTW, you can discontinue the Prime at this time when making smaller PWC's but do use it with the extra-large PWC's so as not to kill the bacteria). 
       
      With addressing this problem, and with your intention of removing the UGF, a thorough stirring of the entire gravel bed (as opposed to vacuuming the gravel) would be in the tank's best interest, followed immediately with a 60% PWC while most of the debris is still in suspension. You need to get as much debris out of this tank as possible -- and it can be done now that you know what's needed.  It would serve no purpose to dump all of the water as that would remove all of the ammonia (food for the bacteria), but you will probably need to stir the water up again to remove the remainder of the debris that settled, via another PWC -- as large as maintaining a 3.0 ppm ammonia level will allow -- or removing even more water but replacing the removed ammonia with the household type.  When you get ready to make this second PWC -- and there's not an immediate rush  to do so -- test the ammonia level and post it on here if you're not sure of how much water to change.  Using household ammonia to supplement the needed ammonia level is not hard to do, however.  You've got to get all of that debris out of there though as is sounds to be extremely excessive.
       
      Now as for the bio-wheel filters, while using another Marineland 350 in place of the Whisper would give you more media chambers, the bio-wheels themselves are by their very nature notoriously slower in becoming populated with nitrifying bacteria.  There's nothing wrong with your Whisper 40 filter at all, and HOB filters are quite efficient.  Getting right to one of your last questions in this message, yes certainly, established (with bacteria) filter media can be transplanted from one filter to another and often IS.  Only the different shapes of the different filters may cause some difficulty in doing this, but if that's the intent it can even be trimmed with a scissors to make it fit.  If it were me, I'd stick with the Whisper filter, since it's been up and running through all this time -- even if it was gunked up for some period.  The only thing different I might have done would have been to use a Hagen AquaClear HOB (Hang-On-Back) filter from the start as it's about the best of this design, but this outside HOB filter concept is still one of the best by any manufacturer.
       
      As for your last question, while I have no actual experience with Safe Start Plus -- and I always prefer to base my recommendations and suggestions on personal experience -- from all I've read on it, it seems to be a viable additive capable of supplying nitrifying bacteria.  I've already suggested the additive that I'd use, that being Dr. Tim's One and Only, which Dawn doesn't approve of quite as well as the Bio product she prefers.  
       
      Ray 
             
       
      In a message dated 12/28/2014 10:58:38 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hi!! I hope you had a nice holiday! I have to admit that I'll be glad after New Years when life can get back to normal! 

      I caught a chance to re-home the rest of my fish and not knowing what direction we were going with the tank, I took it. A friend was able to adopt all with the exception of the 2 medium Angels. I set up my 5 gallon and have moved them in there temporarily. The plan is that they won't be there past tomorrow. 

      I haven't received my Seachem Ammonia test kit. I guess the delivery was delayed due to the holiday but I'm hoping it'll be here tomorrow.  I did test our tap water and the numbers were: PH 7.6, High PH 7.4, Ammonia 0, GH 8, KH 6
      The tank has been running empty since the night of the 26th so today I tested everything to see where it stands. Currently PH 6.8, high PH 7.4, ammonia 8, nitrites either 2 or 5 - the color was so close I couldn't pinpoint it, nitrates 10, GH 10, KH 2

      I guess I feel like we've got way too much debris because when stirring up the rocks it becomes cloudy and then we see these little fuzz balls that look like they have a seed in the center. For some reason I believe these to be the excess food that's rotten or moldy??  

      I re-read your post and see that the rise of nitrites means more of the ammonia is being converted. Even with that it still seems like we have a long way to go. And I worry that the nitrites/nitrates will never catch up. 

      I definitely want to get the UGF out of the tank. No don't want it to interrupt the Fluval. Removing it leaves us with the Marineland bio-wheel 350 and the whisper to work with the Fluval. I had ordered another Marineland 350 which I thought was going to be used on the frog tank but it was too big. I was sending it back to Amazon but they don't want to deal with the return so they told me to me to keep it, along with a full box of filters. 
       I was wondering if we could pull the UGF, vacuum all up under the gravel and then swap out the whisper for the new 350? That would give me those 2-350's and the Fluval 206. Do you think that would blow the fish around too much? I don't have a lot of confidence that the whisper for some reason. I'm new & all I know now is what I'm taught and then there is what I read, which may or may not be true.  I don't see the whisper referenced a lot or as talked up a lot. This causes me to doubt it's capability I guess. I have a chance to choose between the extra 350 and the whisper. If it were you, which would you consider to be a better pick. I know the whisper has filters that have been working and have that good bacteria in them. The new 350 would have 4 filter slots filled with new media. I wondered, could we switch and use the 2-350's? Is it possible to pull 1 set of filters from the current 350 and transplant them to the new one? The other two slots in each of the 350's would then get new media? Can you do that, transplant the filter media to a new filter so it's not so "new?" If possible, would spreading out the media, cleaning up the debris drawn under the UGF, doing a water change - either full or a percentage and adding the Fluval allow me to put some fish in and eventually get thru a full cycle?  

      When I started out it was for the African Dwarf Frogs. I only had a 5 gal tank for awhile and several times I had to dump the water, change the filters and start over. The frogs were over crowded and over fed so that tank never cycled. It was frustrating. They're now in a 10 gallon and I'm working to get thru a cycle. I feel like I'm finally getting somewhere. 

      The excessive ammonia I believe is from a combination of too many fish too early and over feeding. I know we were giving them the sinking pellets, flake food, algae wafers, mini-bites and bottom feeders food. And to make matters worse, they were getting it several times a day per the instructions on the containers. 
       
      If dumping part or all of the water would you suggest adding a bottle of Safe Start Plus after the fish get back in! Any other additives you'd suggest? 

      Thanks, 
      Peg


      On Dec 26, 2014, at 11:51 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      (Message over 64 KB, truncated)
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56346 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 1/1/2015
      Subject: First try at plants in aquarium
      Hi! This past week Dawn shared ways with me to "fishproof" silk
      plants so they could safely be added to my tank.
      I did find some plan I liked and went thru the safety fishproofing as well
      As well as soaking these in boiling water for 15 min to make sure
      the dyes wouldn't leech out.
      Dawn asked me to send a pic when I had a chance to play. This is
      Is my first go round. Please excuse the smudges and water drop
      Residue that is obvious but it was a long day and that part will wait
      Til tomorrow. I have other things to "fix" (like leveling the gravel, hi
      Hiding tubes etc... So they're not out in plain view but for
      tonight I can live with it!
      Be kind with your comments please, this is new to me. I do
      Welcome your constructive criticism and ideas!!
      Thanks!!
      Happy New Year!!
      Peg
      ----------


      Yruegas' 55 gal Freshwater Community Tank




      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56347 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 1/1/2015
      Subject: Question on Fluval set-up
      I managed to get my Fluval 206 hooked up and running on my 55 gal Freshwater community tank. I'm amazed at
      C A) How quiet it is
      B) how crystal clear the water is and
      C) at how little it blows the fish around.

      I have a set-up issue that I hope someone might be able to help with. I have two bubblers in the tank, one cave like structure and a waterfall. They're currently placed at opposite ends of the tank. The Fluval in-take and output are on the left half towards the center. I have only been running the cave-like bubbler which is on the far right end. The instructions state that you should refrain from running air stones, bubblers etc "near" the in-take. I would love to run the waterfall which sits on the far left end. Does anyone know how far away from the in-take the air devices need to be placed to prevent issues in the Fluval operation?
      Peg
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56348 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 1/2/2015
      Subject: Numbers
      I'm working on response to your last email but thought I'd forward numbers from yesterday for review
      Ph 7.6, Hph 8, ammonia 1, nitrite 2, nitrate 5, GH 8, KH 4

      Sent from my iPhone
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56349 From: ptimlin Date: 1/2/2015
      Subject: Re: Question on Fluval set-up
      The idea is that if you get excessive bubbles going into the intake of the Fluval you may cause too much air to build up and break the siphon causing the fluval to stop pumping. 

      So as far as the waterfall is concerned, as long as it isn't creating a lot of bubbles then it shouldn't be a problem. You can tell if the Fluval is taking in bubbles as they a distinct "pssssst" sound when they hit the impeller. Occasional "psssts" are usually fine. But more than one a second or two you might want to space them out a bit.

      Also, waterfall type water flow, especially the output from power filters, do not usually create many bubbles unless they are much higher than the water surface. Normally in a tank this isn't an issue unless you allow the water level (from evaporation) to fall too low. If you make sure you keep the water level up, it shouldn't be an issue.

      Patrick
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56350 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 1/2/2015
      Subject: Re: Question on Fluval set-up
      Hi Peg,

        Did you upload those photos to the forum? I can't find them.

        John<o)))<

      On 2 January 2015 at 21:21, ptimlin@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      The idea is that if you get excessive bubbles going into the intake of the Fluval you may cause too much air to build up and break the siphon causing the fluval to stop pumping. 


      So as far as the waterfall is concerned, as long as it isn't creating a lot of bubbles then it shouldn't be a problem. You can tell if the Fluval is taking in bubbles as they a distinct "pssssst" sound when they hit the impeller. Occasional "psssts" are usually fine. But more than one a second or two you might want to space them out a bit.

      Also, waterfall type water flow, especially the output from power filters, do not usually create many bubbles unless they are much higher than the water surface. Normally in a tank this isn't an issue unless you allow the water level (from evaporation) to fall too low. If you make sure you keep the water level up, it shouldn't be an issue.

      Patrick


      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56351 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/2/2015
      Subject: Re: Numbers
      AOL Email
      Okay, and do you have the two Angels in there . . . and if so, do you have the salt in the water?
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/2/2015 3:40:20 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      I'm working on response to your last email but thought I'd forward numbers from yesterday for review
      Ph 7.6, Hph 8, ammonia 1, nitrite 2, nitrate 5, GH 8, KH 4

      Sent from my iPhone

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56352 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 1/2/2015
      Subject: Re: Numbers
      Yea, they are in there. Tomorrow morning I will get 3 Cories to live in there with Angels until tank finishes cycling. 
      Yes, the salt you had me add after it was filled was added but I haven't added any additional since then. When I put the Angels in I added a large bottle of Safe Start Plus and I've been adding Prime daily. 


      Sent from my iPhone

      On Jan 2, 2015, at 4:47 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Okay, and do you have the two Angels in there . . . and if so, do you have the salt in the water?
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/2/2015 3:40:20 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      I'm working on response to your last email but thought I'd forward numbers from yesterday for review
      Ph 7.6, Hph 8, ammonia 1, nitrite 2, nitrate 5, GH 8, KH 4

      Sent from my iPhone

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56353 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 1/2/2015
      Subject: Re: Question on Fluval set-up
      No I didn't. Do I need to create a folder for my pics or does the owner of the group do that? If I need to, can you tell me how please? 

      Sent from my iPhone

      On Jan 2, 2015, at 4:29 PM, SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Hi Peg,

        Did you upload those photos to the forum? I can't find them.

        John<o)))<

      On 2 January 2015 at 21:21, ptimlin@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      The idea is that if you get excessive bubbles going into the intake of the Fluval you may cause too much air to build up and break the siphon causing the fluval to stop pumping. 


      So as far as the waterfall is concerned, as long as it isn't creating a lot of bubbles then it shouldn't be a problem. You can tell if the Fluval is taking in bubbles as they a distinct "pssssst" sound when they hit the impeller. Occasional "psssts" are usually fine. But more than one a second or two you might want to space them out a bit.

      Also, waterfall type water flow, especially the output from power filters, do not usually create many bubbles unless they are much higher than the water surface. Normally in a tank this isn't an issue unless you allow the water level (from evaporation) to fall too low. If you make sure you keep the water level up, it shouldn't be an issue.

      Patrick


      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56354 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 1/2/2015
      Subject: Re: Question on Fluval set-up
      I figured it out and I did upload a pic that shows the "waterfall" and its proximity to the Fluval intake.

      Sent from my iPhone

      On Jan 2, 2015, at 4:29 PM, SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Hi Peg,

        Did you upload those photos to the forum? I can't find them.

        John<o)))<

      On 2 January 2015 at 21:21, ptimlin@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      The idea is that if you get excessive bubbles going into the intake of the Fluval you may cause too much air to build up and break the siphon causing the fluval to stop pumping. 


      So as far as the waterfall is concerned, as long as it isn't creating a lot of bubbles then it shouldn't be a problem. You can tell if the Fluval is taking in bubbles as they a distinct "pssssst" sound when they hit the impeller. Occasional "psssts" are usually fine. But more than one a second or two you might want to space them out a bit.

      Also, waterfall type water flow, especially the output from power filters, do not usually create many bubbles unless they are much higher than the water surface. Normally in a tank this isn't an issue unless you allow the water level (from evaporation) to fall too low. If you make sure you keep the water level up, it shouldn't be an issue.

      Patrick


      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56355 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 1/2/2015
      Subject: Re: Question on Fluval set-up
      Thank you. I put a pic in my folder which shows the "waterfall" and the Fluval intake ting do you can see how it's set up. 

      There's another piece on the right which is s cave and it sends bubbles up from 2 places. I didn't connect it because it makes too much noise.!

      Sent from my iPhone

      On Jan 2, 2015, at 4:21 PM, ptimlin@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      The idea is that if you get excessive bubbles going into the intake of the Fluval you may cause too much air to build up and break the siphon causing the fluval to stop pumping. 


      So as far as the waterfall is concerned, as long as it isn't creating a lot of bubbles then it shouldn't be a problem. You can tell if the Fluval is taking in bubbles as they a distinct "pssssst" sound when they hit the impeller. Occasional "psssts" are usually fine. But more than one a second or two you might want to space them out a bit.

      Also, waterfall type water flow, especially the output from power filters, do not usually create many bubbles unless they are much higher than the water surface. Normally in a tank this isn't an issue unless you allow the water level (from evaporation) to fall too low. If you make sure you keep the water level up, it shouldn't be an issue.

      Patrick

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56356 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 1/3/2015
      Subject: Re: Question on Fluval set-up
      Yes, I've found them Peg thank you. All your hard work is paying off as it looks very nice.

        John<o)))<

      On 2 January 2015 at 22:52, Peg Yruegas peg@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      Thank you. I put a pic in my folder which shows the "waterfall" and the Fluval intake ting do you can see how it's set up. 

      There's another piece on the right which is s cave and it sends bubbles up from 2 places. I didn't connect it because it makes too much noise.!

      Sent from my iPhone

      On Jan 2, 2015, at 4:21 PM, ptimlin@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      The idea is that if you get excessive bubbles going into the intake of the Fluval you may cause too much air to build up and break the siphon causing the fluval to stop pumping. 


      So as far as the waterfall is concerned, as long as it isn't creating a lot of bubbles then it shouldn't be a problem. You can tell if the Fluval is taking in bubbles as they a distinct "pssssst" sound when they hit the impeller. Occasional "psssts" are usually fine. But more than one a second or two you might want to space them out a bit.

      Also, waterfall type water flow, especially the output from power filters, do not usually create many bubbles unless they are much higher than the water surface. Normally in a tank this isn't an issue unless you allow the water level (from evaporation) to fall too low. If you make sure you keep the water level up, it shouldn't be an issue.

      Patrick


      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56357 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 1/3/2015
      Subject: Re: Question on Fluval set-up
      Thank you! 
      Did you see the waterfall piece on the far left? The illusion of the water "falling" is the bubbles from the air stone traveling back along the bottom and up the back.
      The top of the waterfall is about 2-3 inches above and 8-10 inches to the side if the intake. So, the bubbles are released above the intake. I'm hoping that's ok for he Fluval.

      Sent from my iPhone

      On Jan 3, 2015, at 6:00 AM, SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Yes, I've found them Peg thank you. All your hard work is paying off as it looks very nice.

        John<o)))<

      On 2 January 2015 at 22:52, Peg Yruegas peg@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      Thank you. I put a pic in my folder which shows the "waterfall" and the Fluval intake ting do you can see how it's set up. 

      There's another piece on the right which is s cave and it sends bubbles up from 2 places. I didn't connect it because it makes too much noise.!

      Sent from my iPhone

      On Jan 2, 2015, at 4:21 PM, ptimlin@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      The idea is that if you get excessive bubbles going into the intake of the Fluval you may cause too much air to build up and break the siphon causing the fluval to stop pumping. 


      So as far as the waterfall is concerned, as long as it isn't creating a lot of bubbles then it shouldn't be a problem. You can tell if the Fluval is taking in bubbles as they a distinct "pssssst" sound when they hit the impeller. Occasional "psssts" are usually fine. But more than one a second or two you might want to space them out a bit.

      Also, waterfall type water flow, especially the output from power filters, do not usually create many bubbles unless they are much higher than the water surface. Normally in a tank this isn't an issue unless you allow the water level (from evaporation) to fall too low. If you make sure you keep the water level up, it shouldn't be an issue.

      Patrick


      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56358 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 1/3/2015
      Subject: Re: Questions on re-establishing tank
      Hey Ray!!
      My hubby picked-up the correct hose adapter and it's now on my utility sink waiting for me to
      take it for another spin. I put together a bin of things I may need when I go to use it so I don't have to 
      be running around looking for stuff while it's running or running around trying to find things so I can get started. I included a bowl and instant read digital thermometer so I could get as close as possible to the tank temp.  Carrying all those water buckets really took it out of me.   It wasn't so bad filling that little 5 gal bucket to take care of the 5 gal tank but the 55 wore me out. I can't even imagine how big your tanks are or how many you have. Not too long ago you mentioned breeding or something. Is that your profession?  How many tanks and how many did you own and do you own now?? I looked in the pics area thinking there might be some of all your tanks but there are so many folders that I never found it. 

      The 5 gallon hex was the original home for my African Dwarf Frogs. Even though they were teeny the tank was too small.  My first frog didn't make it and it was after that when I looked for someone to help guide me and found Suzy and Alyce. The next two frogs did better but Suzy really kept on me about moving them to a 10 gal aquarium. She knew that they'd just keep doing poorly in that 5 gal. 
      I had to wait until I had the funds to buy everything I needed and after I did they got moved but I still lost my boy frog.  My little girl Fannie is the only female I have now. She lives with the two boys in the 10 gal. Suzy and Alyce are now guiding me through the cycling of the tank.  With the 5 gal I had to do 50% water changes every other day just to fight the ammonia build up. 

      Losing the frogs in that tank and knowing how hard it was to keep things alive in it were my biggest reason to refrain from putting the Angels in there. They are way bigger than the frogs and I know how
      S
      You said you processed a refund but will you re-charge me when the pkg arrives??

      Sent from my iPhone't go hide. That same night I put food in the feeding ring and he ate with me standing there watching him. I hated the thought of netting him, moving him and starting all over with him traumatized again. He's just trusting me and I don't want to take the chance he'll never get past that. The other one isn't as timid or wasn't as traumatized, just this one guy. 

      Having these two alone in this tank has helped me learn about feeding them. You told me to only feed what they can eat in 5 minutes but that's hard to gauge when I have no experience or no reference point, nothing to look at to tell me ok they're good with 10 pieces of flake food but 15 is too many etc... I've been feeding them by putting 3-4 pieces into the feeding ring. After they get eaten I'll add a few more and I do this until they stop eating. After a few minutes I've been scooping out the leftovers with a brine shrimp net. 

      I haven't started vacuuming the gravel yet or doing any water changes. I wasn't quite sure when those activities should start.  After dinner I'm going to get three Cory cats to clean up the bottom. I'm not planning to add anything else until after the cycle.  When it is time to get more,  I want to keep only non-aggressive, community fish. I had luck with fish coming from Petsmart so I will prob stay with them. I do want to set up a 19 gal quarantine tanks but I've got to hold off on spending for awhile. By the time the tank gets cycled I should be able to set it up but even then it'll have to be cycled too won't it?  Fish keeping has been an expensive hobby. My husband told me last night how much I've spent 
      In it in the last month and a half and my jaw hit the floor. He feels two tanks in our living room are enough. The funds I've used to get them going took a bite from savings.  His exact words "these aquariums are a money pit."  For the next 6-8 weeks I'll concentrate on getting through the cycle and just learning to take care of and clean up after the 5 fish.  I hope 5 will be a good number to cycle with. I know adding afterwards will be slow but that's what I need to do to co-exist with husband and family. 

      I added the bottle of Safe Start at the beginning and I've been adding Prime every day. When should I begin vacuuming gravel and doing water changes? Should I plan to replace filters during or after the cycle?  

      Do I replace water in the tank as its evaporated or is this only done at the water change so the salt can be adjusted accordingly? I understand the water/salt ratio I just didn't know about replacing the evaporated water. 



      On Dec 31, 2014, at 10:44 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      No biggie on the hot water miscommunication.  As you saw, I included a big Grin at the need of my statement.  You just forgot to add that little detail (LOL).  That Aquavac is going to save you a humongous amount of work; those 5 gallon buckets weigh nearly 40 pounds when nearly full.  I'd call that heavy! 
       pm
      I see what you mean about the emergency tank being only a 5 gallon hex.  Not really meant for any fish long-term, although holding a fish or two in quarantine requires a full month to be assured they're disease-free.  BTW, I hope you're aware that such emergency tanks' main purpose -- besides being used as a hospital tank -- is to use them to isolate and observe new fish for a month before adding them to your main tank so that you don't spread any possible disease to your other fish.  As 5 gallons is small, you might watch for PetSmart's periodic $1 per gallon tank sales.  You could pick up a 10 gallon tank for 10 Bucks at those times. 
       
      Looks like the Whisper is entirely out of the question for this small tank -- and the dried out media no longer contains live nitrifiers.  As for holding the Angels in this hex tank, cycling the 55 would take up to 6 weeks so this would be long-term, but it would be much less stressful on the fish, not subjecting them to abnormal ammonia levels.  Even ammonium is toxic, albeit much less so than ammonia.  IF you were to cycle the tank with fish in it, it would be much more of a benefit in using more for this purpose than less, as the finished cycle would be able to convert a larger amount of ammonia.  BUT, as long as we now have this fish-less cycling option, we NEVER advocate cycling a tank with fish if it can be avoided.  It is easier, and surer, to do a fish-less cycle -- and no stress to the fish.
       
      You do understand it correctly.  After the tank is cycled with the two Angelfish, you'll need add any other fish slowly so that the filter can catch up with handling the increased load.  Yes also, on cycling the tank with fish being a big pain whthe sun don't shine -- and with inadequate results.  The benefits of a fish-less cycle are, that you're not subjecting the fish to any stress and you can have the cycles' end result being capable of converting any amount of ammonia that you anticipate your eventual bioload will be when finally adding your fish.  An example, you could cycle the tank so that the nitrifiers will convert 10 ppm daily and if your eventual load of fish only produce 3 ppm of ammonia daily the worst scenario is that a portion of the bacteria will die off until the remainder can subsist on only 3 ppm produced daily.  You can (and should) add all of your fish at the time your tank is fully cycled.  When cycling with fish, it's a constant catch-up game in needing to slowly increase the cycle.  
       
      Getting back to holding the Angels in the 5 gallon tank, I'm picturing their body size (without fins) as being about 2" in diameter -- correct me if I'm wrong.  Changing out 90% of their water each time that's needed doesn't need to be stressful.  If doing this, with being sure the Aquavac is surely attached to this tank, just run the water more slowly -- and add the needed amount of Prime just before you turn the faucets on.  You need to be sure you can control the temperature properly though.  If you can't, have the Aquavac fill the 5 gallon bucket that you'd keep along side the 5 gallon tank and then just pour it in slowly from there after making sure the temperature's correct.  No carrying the bucket any long distance.  Normally, I don't suggest doing 90% PWC's, as for one thing they're not generally needed. but being a strong proponent of the notion that you can never change too much water (the more fresh water the fish are living in, the better they'll thrive), I've been doing 90% PWC's on all the tanks in my hatchery for about 50 years and 40% to 50% PWC's for the preceding 17 years -- and I've had about 3200 gallons in my tanks for the last 25 years (I cut back < g >).  
       
      As for the maximum fish load for your tank, it's not just the number of your fish this depends on but it's also their size (their full eventual size when they reach maturity) -- as they need the space to eventually grow to their maximum size.  You can't go by just the size they are now as that won't allow them room to grow.  There's a rule of thumb estimate that works fairly well for fish up to 3" (when full grown) and which works better for slenderer fish (like Tetras as an example) rather than more heavily-bodied fish (like Platies as an example), and that's to consider 1" per gallon.  While you want a nicely filled tank of fish though, you should never max it out with fish but always leave some room for contingencies -- like power outages during which you have no surface circulation to exchanges gases (carbon dioxide and oxygen).  You could have five 1 1/2" Cardinal Tetras, five 2" Zebra Danios, four 2 1/2" Cory's, two 5" Angelfish,  five 1 3/4" Rasboras and three 2 3/4" Swordtails as one example.  This would total to about 50" of fish.  You need to learn how not to overfeed though.  As I stated a while back, feed just enough that they'll clean up in 5 minutes. 
       
      Ordinarily, salt is not needed in the freshwater aquarium, even though it does have purposes at specific times and is useful in helping treat some diseases.  Some hobbyists use a token amount of 1 TBL of salt per five gallons -- which is not necessary in the slightest.  When cycling a tank with fish, and with subjecting them to possible high levels of ammonia and/or nitrite, even a much smaller amount of salt -- like a pinch per gallon (or less) -- will prevent both ammonia poisoning and nitrite poisoning.  Even the very small amount of 1 TBL of salt per about 25 gallons I recommended can really be reduced to 1 TBL for the whole 55 gallons, although I wanted to ensure the fish would be "doubly safe" (LOL).  Still, 1 TBL of salt per 25 gallons (actually, per 27.5 gallons) is minute.  You only need to be concerned with salt if you're having fish in the 55.  The same goes for Prime, which would be safer to add every day rather than every other day.  Yes, you have that correct, in the amount of salt you need to add back after these PWC amounts. 
       
      If fish-less cycling, and maintaining a 3 ppm level of ammonia requiring the addition of 3 to 4 drops per gallon, you only need to add 3 (or 4) teaspoons of household ammonia to the tank (drops can vary in size).  A teaspoon holds 50 drops.  As it needs to be maintained there until it reaches a point where all 3 ppm will be consumed by the following day, if for instance the ammonia drops to 2 ppm on the following day, you just need to add back about 1 teaspoon of household ammonia to bring it back up to 3 ppm. 
       
      You're not a pain as long as you can put this stuff to good use.  I don't mind giving some advice if it helps you succeed.  That's part of why I moderate here, to help hobbyists like you become successful at keeping fish.  It sounds like it would pay to drive to Gerbers when you're ready for more fish.  You could try PetSmart or Petco if you saw something you really liked that wasn't found at Gerbers, but these fish should definitely be quarantined until you can be sure they're disease-free. 
       
      HAPPY NEW YEAR,gry
       
      Ray
       
              
       
      In a message dated 12/31/2014 4:38:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      I'm sorry I wasn't clear and didn't tell you that I did add hot tap water to the tank. 
      I think the Aquavac is going to be s big help. Even though I only use a 4 & 5 gal bucket to fill, they're really heavy. Even without the use of the suction caused by the water valve, it drained really fast. I got a 50 ft hose so I'll be able to hook up to our utility sink I the basement. When I have to add water for the frogs I pull samples and use the digital thermometer to try to get the water as close as possible to what it is in the tank.  
      My DH is on his way right now to the hardware store to get the right adapter so I'll be able to use next time I have a water change. 
      Keeping the Angels in the emergency tank wouldn't be so bad if it were bigger. It's only a 5 gal hex so it was really crowded in there with the two fish and the whisper like HOB filter I had to rig.  The filter took up a lot of room. I thought about moving the whisper over there but it's a tad deeper do it would crowd the fish even more. Since it's not long term I guess I could move them back and do the fishless cycle. 

      It seems like going through a cycle with two fish will be a bigger pain in the end because if I understand correctly, after the tank cycles I'll have to add new fish really slowly so the filters can catch up to the new amount of stuff in the water. If I add too quickly then I'll screw it all up and possibly have to go through another cycle??

      If that's true then it seems I should add some new fish now, maybe some corys(?) or I should get these fish out and just do what's needed for the fishless cycle.  Let me ask you this.... In the long run which choice will make the aquarium a more stable home. Are there add'l benefits to the fishless cycle?

      After cycling, what is the maximum number of fish that should be in the tank? I don't even know what the correct capacity is but I know I don't want to put too many fish in there and ever get back to the place it was. 

      If I move the fish back to the emergency tank should I try to use the filter media from the whisper? It's dried out now. Can the Bacteria live in a dry environment or would it have needed to remain moist? 

      I'm surprised at adding salt into the the freshwater tank. What is its purpose?  
      If the fish stay in will I do PWCs? Do if I did a 50% water change then I'd add back 1 TBS but if I did s 25% water change I'd add back 1/2 TBS salt? 

      I'm also surprised at adding household ammonia to the tank but I did but some yesterday. It's just so strong that I wouldn't have ever thought it would be safe in an aquarium. 

      I am using Prime but wondered if I should add daily or every other day? I'm sorry I'm such a PITA! I'm not trying to be. Just trying to understand and rebound from the bad info and guidance I had received.  I also need to try to find a good place to buy fish. The only places I know of are Petsmart, Petco, Jacks etc.... I tried looking for privately owned shops but I can't locate any in the Columbus area. I did find a place near Dayton (Gerbers I believe) that is HUGE. They sell both fresh and saltwater, breed diff species and have all kinds of cool stuff but Dayton is 1 1/2 hrs away. Kinda far to drive for fish but st least it's an idea. 

      Ray I really do appreciate your time and all your help! Thank you so much!!


      Sent from my iPhone

      On Dec 31, 2014, at 12:52 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Okay, I'm glad to hear you topped off the tank with some hot tap water.  You need to get a Python though, to make life easier.  I do have to say though, that with your statement of, "I had to refill the tank with the garden hose and being in Ohio, that water was COLD !!," I saw no other choice in understanding this no other way than you having filled your tank with COLD water < g >.  You made no mention of filling it only 3/4 of the way with cold water.  Well at least only the few nitrifiers left on top of the gravel got the worst of it, and 54 o isn't terribly cold.
       
      OH, you got a Marina Aquavac for Christmas.  GREAT; I guess all you'll need now is to get the right adapters for it, to fit your faucets.  That's gonna save you a lot of work.  I don't know how you managed to carry those full buckets of water up until now.  Yes, I did read that you have two Angelfish in your emergency tank, but had forgotten about them needing to go back into the 55.  That's going to make things more difficult as you can't do the fishless-cycle thing with adding household ammonia.  With only these two fish in the tank though, you shouldn't be getting large amounts of ammonia and when it's finally cycled, it won't be cycled for a very large (like 3 pp) amount of ammonia capable of handling the waste of very many more fish.  It will be cycled to handle the waste level of only these two fish, meaning that you'll need to add the rest of your planned fish slowly, a few at a time, to give the cycle time to increase to the capacity to handle the waste from the additional fish. 
       
      I'm almost wondering if it would be feasible to keep the Angels in the emergency tank during the cycling of the (fishless) cycling of the 55, and making 90% PWC's on the emergency tank twice a week.  How large is this emergency tank, and what did you do with the Whisper?  Maybe you could run the partially-cycled Whisper on the emergency tank.  Alright, I didn't read that far ahead.  I see in your next paragraph that you saved the Whisper's media. 
       
      If you're keeping the two Angelfish in the 55, then Yes disregard my instructions on adding household ammonia -- as I mentioned in my first paragraph.  Ideally, a tank should be cycled to be able to convert about 3 ppm of ammonia produced daily by all your fishes (fishes in this case referring to more than one species of fish, as used in scientific literature).  This 3 ppm ammonia level that a tank would be cycled to handle is roughly what a properly stocked tank of fish would produce in one day.  By this, you can see that the ammonia produced only by the two Angelfish will not grow as large of colonies of nitrifying bacteria that will be needed to handle the waste from a full tank of fishes.  By slowly adding the workload on these bacteria with small additions of fishes, you'll gradually increase the cycle's capacity to handle the waste from more fish. 
       
      I see that any nitrate in the 55 right now is the result of the 5% old water allowed to remain.  Your numbers look good and you may also expect the ammonia to drop as a result of having only two fish to add more ammonia even as much of this in one day; at the very most, if it rises, it shouldn't be by very much.  With the nitrite level being at 0.50 ppm, whereas it was zero yesterday, this shows that these particular bacteria are converting the ammonia.  I'm assuming you're using Prime to prevent any ammonia from being toxic, especially at this higher pH).  If not, continue to use it now.  As the nitrite can only be expected to rise from here on until those bacteria start multiplying more, keep those two TBS (Tablespoons) of salt in the water at all times.
       
      I'd like to hope that the 5 ppm of nitrate is the result of bacteria converting some of this nitrite, but I really doubt that, as nice as that would be.  Noticing your your two hardness readings starting to drop.  Note that nothing in the tank can induce the GH to decrease -- it MUST remain at 8 dGH if that's what it was yesterday.  It is what it is and nothing will change that except water evaporation increasing its value.  We'll need to keep an eye on the KH and any further decrease of it, but with the pH being at 8, you can't use very much buffer to stabilize it at 6 as it may increase the pH when doing so.  We'll play it by ear though and digest these numbers daily.
       
      Ray
           
       
      In a message dated 12/31/2014 11:43:12 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Nope! Do not assume..... I filled the first 75% of the tank with cold water from the hose. I then did the install of the Fluval.  After it was ready I finished filling the tank using hot tap water that I lugged with buckets. I started the Fluval then the heater then lastly the Penguin. The thermometer on the tank read 62 degrees when everything was started. Our cold tap water is 54 degrees.

       I don't have a Python but I do have a Marina Aquavac that I rec'd for Christmas. Up until the night I needed to use it I didn't know that none of the adapters would fit any of our faucets, not even the utility sink in the basement. I did find that one end of the adapter would fit the faucet outside. Being unable to physically lug all that water(I'm on disability),  I chose to use the faucet that was available for the largest portion of the fill. 

      The fourth paragraph of your last post states "as you no longer have fish in this tank" but as I told you in my last reply I do have two fish that I couldn't re-home and that needed to go back into that tank. They are two medium Angels. 

      Yes, the 1st ammonia test was done before I drained the tank. The numbers for today will be at the end of this post. If there was room for the whisper without it looking so overcrowded I would have left it, but with everything else, it just appeared too crowded. I still have it all, including the filter media in a bucket. I had to choose between the Penguin and the Whisper and the Penguin seemed like a better choice. 

      I tested our tap water for nitrates when you asked me to test it for ammonia. The nitrate test result was zero. 
      I'm assuming that your instructions for adding ammonia are based on your thought that there weren't any fish in the tank. Should I disregard?  Ideally what range of numbers are ideal for a community tank? 

      Since this isn't going to be a fishless cycle, should I add others to aid in getting thru the cycle? With the ammonia at 1 should I begin adding Prime? If so, would it be daily or every other day? Do I do PWC's with the numbers at these levels 

      Today's numbers are:
      High PH 8,  Ammonia 1, Nitrites .50, nitrates 5, GH 7, KH 5

      Peg


      On Dec 31, 2014, at 2:26 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@...> so wrote:"

       

      Peg,
       
      To begin with, even though you didn't have the Fluval together yet after you filled the tank, should I assume that you started the Penguin 350 filter?  One other thing, getting right to the gravel, the nitrifiers reside only on the top surface and down to a depth of less than 1/2".  They can't live in anaerobic conditions any deeper than this, so they're not found throughout the gravel.  When you removed the UGF, and when you did the thorough vacuuming of it, you most likely would have mixed in the gravel's top layer with the bulk of the remaining gravel.  It would have been difficult to keep the top layer of gravel intact, as not mixing it with the rest.  At this point, there would be no further concern for not destroying all of the bacteria residing on top of the gravel as it would have ceased to exist when buried under the rest of it.
       
      Now, getting back to the Penguin 350, after you refilled the tank if you started the filter right away you would have subjected the nitrifiers in this filter and on its bio-wheels to extreme shock, dependuing on how cold this new water was.  I's quite likely that you decimated a good percentage of them.  I won't ask you why you chose "to use the garden hose to refill the t, but I will ask why you couldn't have used an in-housÿfe faucet with which you could have mixed in part of this water from the hot water faucet.  I'm still unsure if you have a Python yet or not, but that would have been the thing to use in place of the garden hose if you have one.  At the very least, just a few buckets of warmer water mixed in as the garden hose was filling the tank with COLD water would have helped in preserving your nitrifiers.
       
      While Nitrosomonas (Nitrosomas) can tolerate a temperature down to 35 o - 36 o, and while Nitrobacters can tolerate a temperature down to 38 o - 39 o, to subject them to a sudden temperature of even 45 o, is harsh on them.  Dr. Tim's One & Only supplement is recommended to be kept in the refrigerator -- and the average refrigerator is recommended to be kept at 39 o F, but this product's contents aren't plunged instantly to 39 o when placed in the fridge.  You may have little nitrifying bacteria left to continue the cycle from where it was, and may need to start from scratch.  Actually, Nitrosomonos thrive at their best at a temperature of approximately 86 o, and Nitrobacters thrive best at a temperature of approximately 89 o -- some reports even say slightly higher for each.  While they still do well at the 78 o -- 80 o temperatures where we need them, this may illustrate why a sudden drop to such COLD temperatures would be devastating to them. 
       
      Well at least you did a great job in getting rid of all the debris in the gravel -- which was sorely need to do.  As you no longer have fish in this tank, cycling it should be fairly straight-forward.  So, going to your water testing in your first paragraph here, I'm assuming that these ammonia tests were done before you even removed the UGF plates -- since you give other figures towards the end of your message, of the parameters of the new water.  If the pH of your old water was still down near pH 6.8, this fully explains why you had zero Free-Ammonia.  At this pH, all of it will be in the form of Ammonium -- your Total Ammonia will be 100% Ammonium.  That the test came up as showing a deep purple, shows that it was off your API test chart scale having an upper limit of 8.0 ppm, as I stated that I suspected.  No, I've never ever seen a level that high.
       
      I thought you may have decided on removing the Whisper filter, just by your enthusiasm for doing this when you posted last.  I'm not sure if you thought about saving whatever bacteria that had developed in it up to this point, which you could have now used to seed the Penguin 350.     
       
      Getting to your test results of the refilled tank, as your regular pH test kit only goes up to pH 7.6, and since you high pH test result is so much higher, your regular test result is useless as we know the pH is much higher than pH 7.6.  There's really no reason to even consider it.  We know your tank's pH is 8.0.  With your tap water testing at zero ammonia, and with your tank water now testing at 1.0 ppm -- AFTER making a 95% PWC -- this begins to show just how much ammonia had accumulated in your old water, if the 5% residual old water shows a level of 1.0 ppm after being diluted by a rate of 19 to 1 by the fresh water.  It's a bit surprising you have any nitrate, but this is obviously due to the small amount of old water left in the tank (unless your tap water contains some nitrate).  With zero nitrite again, this is to be expected having mostly all new water, although there's probably a trace of it left from the old water that's too small to test for.  Your two hardness (GH & KH) levels are really quite good.  Some would say they're just about ideal for average community tank fish.  Your KH isn't too low that it doesn't have at least moderate buffering capacity -- it does.
       
      So now, with 1.0 ppm of ammonia right now, you'll need to increase it to 3.0 ppm by adding 3 or 4 drops of clear household ammonia per gallon (not sudsy, as I've said before).  Monitor the ammonia level daily and add more ammonia as need to keep the level up at 3.0 ppm each day.  At first, you won't need to add much, if any, but as time goes by you'll need to add a bit more each day, until it reaches a point where you'll need to add the full 3 - 4 drops daily; the test will show zero ppm on these following days, showing that the bacteria are in sufficient amounts that they can handle this amount of ammonia given off from fish if you were to introduce them.  As your tank would be fully cycled at this point, this IS the time to add your fish and to stop adding any more ammonia.  You'll first need to do enough of a water change to remove the build up of nitrate, which should be brought down to at least 40 ppm, or preferably lower.  Right now, this is just the start and we'll guide you as the cycle progresses. 
       
      Ray 
       
       
       
      In a message dated 12/30/2014 11:10:10 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hey there!! 
      I finally rec'd the Seachem Ammonia Testing Kit. I tested the Aquarium water and also my tap. Both free and total ammonia tests show 0 ammonia.  The Aquarium tested with free ammonia 0, total ammonia was deep purple, darker than the darkest blue on the color strip. Have you ever seen anything like that??

      I guess the aquarium count is a moot point now because last night I started removing the UGF and vacuuming all the substrate. By the time I had done a thorough cleaning about 95% of the water was gone. 
      I had to refill the tank with the garden hose and being in Ohio, that water was COLD!! I still had to put the Fluval together so I let it sit for awhile. Was hoping it would warm up a little bit at least. My tank is a Marineland 55 gal with the middle brace. The lid has those cut-out spaces on each side for filters etc....the right side is filled with the Penguin 350 and then on the left I had that whisper that would share space with Fluval. It was crowded and looked it so I pulled the a Whisper out and put the Fluval in the space. Taking the Whisper down gave me opportunity to space the Fluval tubes apart and it all looks nice and neat. 

      Although I vacuumed the gravel really well I didn't add water and rinse it. I was trying not to destroy ALL the bacteria. I also left all 4 filters and both bio-wheels in the Penguin without rinsing them. After I had filled the tank with about 6-8 inches of water I stirred the gravel up to see if there were still going to be a lot of debris or any fuzzles floating around and there weren't. It looked good. I was glad because I really didn't want ti rinse all the gravel if I didn't have to. 

      The only fish I had left were the two that were in the emergency tank I set up. I didn't have filter media to maintain that tank so I knew I needed to move them.  Today the tank was up to temp so I treated with Prime them added a  full bottle of Safe Start (I didn't know until tonight that Amazon carried Dr.Tims or I would've ordered - going to order this week to keep on on hand). Two hours later I moved the Angels over to the 55 gal. So far, so good. 

      Early this evening I tested the tank water. This is what I came up with:  PH 7.6,  HPH 8, Ammonia 1, Nitrites 0, Nitrates 5, GH 8, KH 6.  Do you think maybe the stuff left in the gravel along with what was in the Penguins filter media are enough to maybe take this forward in the cycle? 

      Peg
      Soon Opening: Hoopin' It Up Designs
                                Custom Embroidery & Embellishments

      On Dec 29, 2014, at 1:10 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.comwrote:

       

      Hi Peg,
       
      Yes, the holidays are just fine and now with New Year's Day coming up, it will just serve to extend them for another half a week.  Enjoy them while you can.  Yes, sooner or later things will normalize.
       
      Rehoming your remaining fish should make things much easier from here on in.   I'm eager to see what your ammonia tests out to be when you Seachem kit arrives.  Typically, and unless your water supplier  gives you super chloraminated water, most water companies use a concentration of around 4 ppm chloramine in their drinking water.  As the chlorine and the ammonia combine at a ratio of 7.6 to 1, you probably have about 0.5 ppm of ammonia in your tap water, but apparently nothing excessive above that.  Good to see that your ammonia test results are coming up minimal (zero?).  One thing I notice is that the high pH test resuolt of your tap water is pH 7.4 -- and you high pH test result of your aquarium water is exactly the same -- yet your low pH tests of these two different water shows a difference of pH 0.8.  I'm not understanding this at all.  While each test kit tests in a different range, they both should show a direct relationship to each other.  There should be no large difference in one test if the other test remains stable.  Maybe (hopefully) Dawn can join us to figure this one out as maybe I'm missing something, or else maybe there been an error in reading the tests.
       
      While the test colors for the nitrite may be "close" to either 2.0 ppm or 5.0 ppm, there's a huge difference in toxicity if fish were still involved.  Now, with you nitrate previously testing out at 20 ppm even through several PWC's you've made, only to test at 10.0 ppm now, does not seem possible since there's more nitrite available now to be converted into nitrate.  Have you made another large PWC just prior to testing for nitrate? 
       
      Without having any fish in the tank now, rest assured that you don't need to make those PWC's to keep the organic waste parameters down.  You will need to monitor them, to maintain the ammonia at a minimum level of about 3.0 ppm, but you no longer need to be concerned much about it being up at 8.0 ppm -- unless it tends to remain there (which I suspect it may, due to possible excess organic matter in the water).  But, if all starts to go well, as more (if more) ammonia is being converted, you'll need to add a small amount of clear (not sudsy) household ammonia to the tank to keep the level up at 3.0 ppm.  This is done by daily additions of household ammonia of from 3 to 4 drops per gallon to maintain this level constantly, until you see that this same addition of ammonia every day results in a zero reading the following day.  At that time, you'll know your tank is cycled.
       
      With the ammonia at 8.0 ppm, and with the level of debris as being able to be stirred up and making the water cloudy -- and exhibiting organic solids in the form of these "seeds/fuzz balls" -- this is waaay too much debris to have in any tank.  Yes, this is rotting food, and is where your high ammonia is coming from.  And yes, with this enlightenment, you do have a looong way to go, not necessarily in cycling the tank (as the higher ammonia should assist it), but just to make the tank livable for fish.  I wasn't aware there was this much debris.  Without fish in the tank though, this will make it easier (BTW, you can discontinue the Prime at this time when making smaller PWC's but do use it with the extra-large PWC's so as not to kill the bacteria). 
       
      With addressing this problem, and with your intention of removing the UGF, a thorough stirring of the entire gravel bed (as opposed to vacuuming the gravel) would be in the tank's best interest, followed immediately with a 60% PWC while most of the debris is still in suspension. You need to get as much debris out of this tank as possible -- and it can be done now that you know what's needed.  It would serve no purpose to dump all of the water as that would remove all of the ammonia (food for the bacteria), but you will probably need to stir the water up again to remove the remainder of the debris that settled, via another PWC -- as large as maintaining a 3.0 ppm ammonia level will allow -- or removing even more water but replacing the removed ammonia with the household type.  When you get ready to make this second PWC -- and there's not an immediate rush  to do so -- test the ammonia level and post it on here if you're not sure of how much water to change.  Using household ammonia to supplement the needed ammonia level is not hard to do, however.  You've got to get all of that debris out of there though as is sounds to be extremely excessive.
       
      Now as for the bio-wheel filters, while using another Marineland 350 in place of the Whisper would give you more media chambers, the bio-wheels themselves are by their very nature notoriously slower in becoming populated with nitrifying bacteria.  There's nothing wrong with your Whisper 40 filter at all, and HOB filters are quite efficient.  Getting right to one of your last questions in this message, yes certainly, established (with bacteria) filter media can be transplanted from one filter to another and often IS.  Only the different shapes of the different filters may cause some difficulty in doing this, but if that's the intent it can even be trimmed with a scissors to make it fit.  If it were me, I'd stick with the Whisper filter, since it's been up and running through all this time -- even if it was gunked up for some period.  The only thing different I might have done would have been to use a Hagen AquaClear HOB (Hang-On-Back) filter from the start as it's about the best of this design, but this outside HOB filter concept is still one of the best by any manufacturer.
       
      As for your last question, while I have no actual experience with Safe Start Plus -- and I always prefer to base my recommendations and suggestions on personal experience -- from all I've read on it, it seems to be a viable additive capable of supplying nitrifying bacteria.  I've already suggested the additive that I'd use, that being Dr. Tim's One and Only, which Dawn doesn't approve of quite as well as the Bio product she prefers.  
       
      Ray 
             
       
      In a message dated 12/28/2014 10:58:38 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hi!! I hope you had a nice holiday! I have to admit that I'll be glad after New Years when life can get back to normal! 

      I caught a chance to re-home the rest of my fish and not knowing what direction we were going with the tank, I took it. A friend was able to adopt all with the exception of the 2 medium Angels. I set up my 5 gallon and have moved them in there temporarily. The plan is that they won't be there past tomorrow. 

      I haven't received my Seachem Ammonia test kit. I guess the delivery was delayed due to the holiday but I'm hoping it'll be here tomorrow.  I did test our tap water and the numbers were: PH 7.6, High PH 7.4, Ammonia 0, GH 8, KH 6
      The tank has been running empty since the night of the 26th so today I tested everything to see where it stands. Currently PH 6.8, high PH 7.4, ammonia 8, nitrites either 2 or 5 - the color was so close I couldn't pinpoint it, nitrates 10, GH 10, KH 2

      I guess I feel like we've got way too much debris because when stirring up the rocks it becomes cloudy and then we see these little fuzz balls that look like they have a seed in the center. For some reason I believe these to be the excess food that's rotten or moldy??  

      I re-read your post and see that the rise of nitrites means more of the ammonia is being converted. Even with that it still seems like we have a long way to go. And I worry that the nitrites/nitrates will never catch up. 

      I definitely want to get the UGF out of the tank. No don't want it to interrupt the Fluval. Removing it leaves us with the Marineland bio-wheel 350 and the whisper to work with the Fluval. I had ordered another Marineland 350 which I thought was going to be used on the frog tank but it was too big. I was sending it back to Amazon but they don't want to deal with the return so they told me to me to keep it, along with a full box of filters. 
       I was wondering if we could pull the UGF, vacuum all up under the gravel and then swap out the whisper for the new 350? That would give me those 2-350's and the Fluval 206. Do you think that would blow the fish around too much? I don't have a lot of confidence that the

      (Message over 64 KB, truncated)
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56359 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/3/2015
      Subject: Re: Questions on re-establishing tank
      AOL Email
      Hi Peg,
       
      Using 5 gallon buckets is the hard way to do water changes, unless you're really strong enough so that it doesn't bother you.  It's also very time consuming and some beginner hobbyists just give up on it at this point, feeling that it's too much work to have to do week after week.  Many of us, including myself, made water changes with buckets when we were just starting out, and when we were much younger < g >.  I'm glad for your sake that you got that AquaVac so that you can get away from carrying those buckets.  You're going to find though, that drawing water out of the tank with that water changer will use a lot of tap water.  One way to avoid that if possible is to start it running like that and then turn the faucet off and just let it syphon out the rest of the way, even though it will take longer.  By now, many of us use water pumps to remove the aquarium water and sometimes one to refill the tank, depending on the water change set-up we use.  On multiple tank set ups, one set of hoses and a pump is used to draw down the water while the previous tank is being filled, so that no time is wasted; it goes quite quickly.  All of the on-line aquarium supply houses carry a selection of water pumps of all sizes, or one can pick up a utility pump at Home Depot or Loews. 
       
      Trying to make this next long-story short, my biggest tanks now are a number of 125 gallon aquariums, but I had tanks up to 260 gallons when I needed them.  Besides these 125's I have several 100 gallon tanks, half a dozen 75 gallon tank, a dozen 50 gallon tanks, a few 55's, etc., etc.  I've cut way back from when I was commercially breeding fish and only have about 90 tanks right now (with a total volume of 3200 gallons).  Of course, I still breed fish right now as I thoroughly enjoy it.  At one time, a good number of years ago, I had a tropical fish store with a friend/partner of mine.  When I sold my half off to my partner, I went into importing fish, from Germany and Africa (Lake Malawi, Lake Victoria and Lake Tanganyika) and distributed them throughout the country (and as far as Australia).  It was never my actual profession as I was a printer, but I guess you could call it a second profession.  Probably spent as much time (or more) doing this as doing anything else.  When I retired from printing, I managed one of the largest Water Garden Suppliers dealing in ponds, their fish and their many plants, specializing in Water Lilies; each day was fun as it was totally enjoyable -- it certainly wasn't work.    Sorry, I don't have any pics in any folders, as no one ever taught me how to put photos up on line.  It's got to be really easy as everyone is doing it, but unless a person does this at least once -- by being walked through it -- it's all Greek, including all the internet terms.     
       
      I see you've found that the smaller the tank is, the harder it is to take care of.  Ammonia builds up a lot faster in a 5 gallon tank as compared to tank double that size.  As you don't yet know how much your fish will eat in 5 minutes, just start with a small amount -- more than just a certain number of flakes you can count on two hands.  If there's food left over after five minutes, cut back on the amount of food next time -- and the time after that -- until you get the idea of the proper amount.  A small aquarium fish's stomach might be the size of a garden pea; it doesn't  take much to satisfy the fish.  You'll never get to learn how much to feed if you keep giving more and waiting for the fish to eat that, and then give it more yet -- until the fish won't eat anymore.  You should never feed fish so much that they won't eat any more.  Fish don't know when to stop eating as they don't know that they'll be fed again the next day.  They'll keep eating as much as they can, while the opportunity presents itself.  It's not good for the fish to feed them this much.  It can even be a cause for a condition called "Bloat," which can ocassionally be fatal, depending on its actual cause.. 
       
      Yes, it can be a money pit if you let it.  Now that you have all the basic necessities, it shouldn't cost very much at all from here on in.  The major additions now would be more fish and maybe plants if you feel up to them.  None of this needs to (nor should) be done all at once anyway.  When the water level drops in the tank due to evaporation, none of the salt is lost.  Yes, you may replace water lost due to evaporation .  When adding new water to top the tank off because of this evaporation, you don't add any more salt.  The water parameters should tell you when to start doing PWC's, especially the nitrite which you don't want to allow to get too high, but even the ammonia should not be much above 4.0 ppm (3.0 ppm is better, although the cycle will take longer).  Too much of a drop in your KH will also tell you it's time to make a PWC.  You can start vacuuming after the second week -- and then, only do half the tank at a time, doing the other half the next week. 
       
      Ray  
       
        
      In a message dated 1/3/2015 4:46:09 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hey Ray!!
      My hubby picked-up the correct hose adapter and it's now on my utility sink waiting for me to
      take it for another spin. I put together a bin of things I may need when I go to use it so I don't have to 
      be running around looking for stuff while it's running or running around trying to find things so I can get started. I included a bowl and instant read digital thermometer so I could get as close as possible to the tank temp.  Carrying all those water buckets really took it out of me.   It wasn't so bad filling that little 5 gal bucket to take care of the 5 gal tank but the 55 wore me out. I can't even imagine how big your tanks are or how many you have. Not too long ago you mentioned breeding or something. Is that your profession?  How many tanks and how many did you own and do you own now?? I looked in the pics area thinking there might be some of all your tanks but there are so many folders that I never found it. 

      The 5 gallon hex was the original home for my African Dwarf Frogs. Even though they were teeny the tank was too small.  My first frog didn't make it and it was after that when I looked for someone to help guide me and found Suzy and Alyce. The next two frogs did better but Suzy really kept on me about moving them to a 10 gal aquarium. She knew that they'd just keep doing poorly in that 5 gal. 
      I had to wait until I had the funds to buy everything I needed and after I did they got moved but I still lost my boy frog.  My little girl Fannie is the only female I have now. She lives with the two boys in the 10 gal. Suzy and Alyce are now guiding me through the cycling of the tank.  With the 5 gal I had to do 50% water changes every other day just to fight the ammonia build up. 

      Losing the frogs in that tank and knowing how hard it was to keep things alive in it were my biggest reason to refrain from putting the Angels in there. They are way bigger than the frogs and I know how
      S
      You said you processed a refund but will you re-charge me when the pkg arrives??

      Sent from my iPhone't go hide. That same night I put food in the feeding ring and he ate with me standing there watching him. I hated the thought of netting him, moving him and starting all over with him traumatized again. He's just trusting me and I don't want to take the chance he'll never get past that. The other one isn't as timid or wasn't as traumatized, just this one guy. 

      Having these two alone in this tank has helped me learn about feeding them. You told me to only feed what they can eat in 5 minutes but that's hard to gauge when I have no experience or no reference point, nothing to look at to tell me ok they're good with 10 pieces of flake food but 15 is too many etc... I've been feeding them by putting 3-4 pieces into the feeding ring. After they get eaten I'll add a few more and I do this until they stop eating. After a few minutes I've been scooping out the leftovers with a brine shrimp net. 

      I haven't started vacuuming the gravel yet or doing any water changes. I wasn't quite sure when those activities should start.  After dinner I'm going to get three Cory cats to clean up the bottom. I'm not planning to add anything else until after the cycle.  When it is time to get more,  I want to keep only non-aggressive, community fish. I had luck with fish coming from Petsmart so I will prob stay with them. I do want to set up a 19 gal quarantine tanks but I've got to hold off on spending for awhile. By the time the tank gets cycled I should be able to set it up but even then it'll have to be cycled too won't it?  Fish keeping has been an expensive hobby. My husband told me last night how much I've spent 
      In it in the last month and a half and my jaw hit the floor. He feels two tanks in our living room are enough. The funds I've used to get them going took a bite from savings.  His exact words "these aquariums are a money pit."  For the next 6-8 weeks I'll concentrate on getting through the cycle and just learning to take care of and clean up after the 5 fish.  I hope 5 will be a good number to cycle with. I know adding afterwards will be slow but that's what I need to do to co-exist with husband and family. 

      I added the bottle of Safe Start at the beginning and I've been adding Prime every day. When should I begin vacuuming gravel and doing water changes? Should I plan to replace filters during or after the cycle?  

      Do I replace water in the tank as its evaporated or is this only done at the water change so the salt can be adjusted accordingly? I understand the water/salt ratio I just didn't know about replacing the evaporated water. 



      On Dec 31, 2014, at 10:44 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      No biggie on the hot water miscommunication.  As you saw, I included a big Grin at the need of my statement.  You just forgot to add that little detail (LOL).  That Aquavac is going to save you a humongous amount of work; those 5 gallon buckets weigh nearly 40 pounds when nearly full.  I'd call that heavy! 
       pm
      I see what you mean about the emergency tank being only a 5 gallon hex.  Not really meant for any fish long-term, although holding a fish or two in quarantine requires a full month to be assured they're disease-free.  BTW, I hope you're aware that such emergency tanks' main purpose -- besides being used as a hospital tank -- is to use them to isolate and observe new fish for a month before adding them to your main tank so that you don't spread any possible disease to your other fish.  As 5 gallons is small, you might watch for PetSmart's periodic $1 per gallon tank sales.  You could pick up a 10 gallon tank for 10 Bucks at those times. 
       
      Looks like the Whisper is entirely out of the question for this small tank -- and the dried out media no longer contains live nitrifiers.  As for holding the Angels in this hex tank, cycling the 55 would take up to 6 weeks so this would be long-term, but it would be much less stressful on the fish, not subjecting them to abnormal ammonia levels.  Even ammonium is toxic, albeit much less so than ammonia.  IF you were to cycle the tank with fish in it, it would be much more of a benefit in using more for this purpose than less, as the finished cycle would be able to convert a larger amount of ammonia.  BUT, as long as we now have this fish-less cycling option, we NEVER advocate cycling a tank with fish if it can be avoided.  It is easier, and surer, to do a fish-less cycle -- and no stress to the fish.
       
      You do understand it correctly.  After the tank is cycled with the two Angelfish, you'll need add any other fish slowly so that the filter can catch up with handling the increased load.  Yes also, on cycling the tank with fish being a big pain whthe sun don't shine -- and with inadequate results.  The benefits of a fish-less cycle are, that you're not subjecting the fish to any stress and you can have the cycles' end result being capable of converting any amount of ammonia that you anticipate your eventual bioload will be when finally adding your fish.  An example, you could cycle the tank so that the nitrifiers will convert 10 ppm daily and if your eventual load of fish only produce 3 ppm of ammonia daily the worst scenario is that a portion of the bacteria will die off until the remainder can subsist on only 3 ppm produced daily.  You can (and should) add all of your fish at the time your tank is fully cycled.  When cycling with fish, it's a constant catch-up game in needing to slowly increase the cycle.  
       
      Getting back to holding the Angels in the 5 gallon tank, I'm picturing their body size (without fins) as being about 2" in diameter -- correct me if I'm wrong.  Changing out 90% of their water each time that's needed doesn't need to be stressful.  If doing this, with being sure the Aquavac is surely attached to this tank, just run the water more slowly -- and add the needed amount of Prime just before you turn the faucets on.  You need to be sure you can control the temperature properly though.  If you can't, have the Aquavac fill the 5 gallon bucket that you'd keep along side the 5 gallon tank and then just pour it in slowly from there after making sure the temperature's correct.  No carrying the bucket any long distance.  Normally, I don't suggest doing 90% PWC's, as for one thing they're not generally needed. but being a strong proponent of the notion that you can never change too much water (the more fresh water the fish are living in, the better they'll thrive), I've been doing 90% PWC's on all the tanks in my hatchery for about 50 years and 40% to 50% PWC's for the preceding 17 years -- and I've had about 3200 gallons in my tanks for the last 25 years (I cut back < g >).  
       
      As for the maximum fish load for your tank, it's not just the number of your fish this depends on but it's also their size (their full eventual size when they reach maturity) -- as they need the space to eventually grow to their maximum size.  You can't go by just the size they are now as that won't allow them room to grow.  There's a rule of thumb estimate that works fairly well for fish up to 3" (when full grown) and which works better for slenderer fish (like Tetras as an example) rather than more heavily-bodied fish (like Platies as an example), and that's to consider 1" per gallon.  While you want a nicely filled tank of fish though, you should never max it out with fish but always leave some room for contingencies -- like power outages during which you have no surface circulation to exchanges gases (carbon dioxide and oxygen).  You could have five 1 1/2" Cardinal Tetras, five 2" Zebra Danios, four 2 1/2" Cory's, two 5" Angelfish,  five 1 3/4" Rasboras and three 2 3/4" Swordtails as one example.  This would total to about 50" of fish.  You need to learn how not to overfeed though.  As I stated a while back, feed just enough that they'll clean up in 5 minutes. 
       
      Ordinarily, salt is not needed in the freshwater aquarium, even though it does have purposes at specific times and is useful in helping treat some diseases.  Some hobbyists use a token amount of 1 TBL of salt per five gallons -- which is not necessary in the slightest.  When cycling a tank with fish, and with subjecting them to possible high levels of ammonia and/or nitrite, even a much smaller amount of salt -- like a pinch per gallon (or less) -- will prevent both ammonia poisoning and nitrite poisoning.  Even the very small amount of 1 TBL of salt per about 25 gallons I recommended can really be reduced to 1 TBL for the whole 55 gallons, although I wanted to ensure the fish would be "doubly safe" (LOL).  Still, 1 TBL of salt per 25 gallons (actually, per 27.5 gallons) is minute.  You only need to be concerned with salt if you're having fish in the 55.  The same goes for Prime, which would be safer to add every day rather than every other day.  Yes, you have that correct, in the amount of salt you need to add back after these PWC amounts. 
       
      If fish-less cycling, and maintaining a 3 ppm level of ammonia requiring the addition of 3 to 4 drops per gallon, you only need to add 3 (or 4) teaspoons of household ammonia to the tank (drops can vary in size).  A teaspoon holds 50 drops.  As it needs to be maintained there until it reaches a point where all 3 ppm will be consumed by the following day, if for instance the ammonia drops to 2 ppm on the following day, you just need to add back about 1 teaspoon of household ammonia to bring it back up to 3 ppm. 
       
      You're not a pain as long as you can put this stuff to good use.  I don't mind giving some advice if it helps you succeed.  That's part of why I moderate here, to help hobbyists like you become successful at keeping fish.  It sounds like it would pay to drive to Gerbers when you're ready for more fish.  You could try PetSmart or Petco if you saw something you really liked that wasn't found at Gerbers, but these fish should definitely be quarantined until you can be sure they're disease-free. 
       
      HAPPY NEW YEAR,gry
       
      Ray
       
              
       
      In a message dated 12/31/2014 4:38:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      I'm sorry I wasn't clear and didn't tell you that I did add hot tap water to the tank. 
      I think the Aquavac is going to be s big help. Even though I only use a 4 & 5 gal bucket to fill, they're really heavy. Even without the use of the suction caused by the water valve, it drained really fast. I got a 50 ft hose so I'll be able to hook up to our utility sink I the basement. When I have to add water for the frogs I pull samples and use the digital thermometer to try to get the water as close as possible to what it is in the tank.  
      My DH is on his way right now to the hardware store to get the right adapter so I'll be able to use next time I have a water change. 
      Keeping the Angels in the emergency tank wouldn't be so bad if it were bigger. It's only a 5 gal hex so it was really crowded in there with the two fish and the whisper like HOB filter I had to rig.  The filter took up a lot of room. I thought about moving the whisper over there but it's a tad deeper do it would crowd the fish even more. Since it's not long term I guess I could move them back and do the fishless cycle. 

      It seems like going through a cycle with two fish will be a bigger pain in the end because if I understand correctly, after the tank cycles I'll have to add new fish really slowly so the filters can catch up to the new amount of stuff in the water. If I add too quickly then I'll screw it all up and possibly have to go through another cycle??

      If that's true then it seems I should add some new fish now, maybe some corys(?) or I should get these fish out and just do what's needed for the fishless cycle.  Let me ask you this.... In the long run which choice will make the aquarium a more stable home. Are there add'l benefits to the fishless cycle?

      After cycling, what is the maximum number of fish that should be in the tank? I don't even know what the correct capacity is but I know I don't want to put too many fish in there and ever get back to the place it was. 

      If I move the fish back to the emergency tank should I try to use the filter media from the whisper? It's dried out now. Can the Bacteria live in a dry environment or would it have needed to remain moist? 

      I'm surprised at adding salt into the the freshwater tank. What is its purpose?  
      If the fish stay in will I do PWCs? Do if I did a 50% water change then I'd add back 1 TBS but if I did s 25% water change I'd add back 1/2 TBS salt? 

      I'm also surprised at adding household ammonia to the tank but I did but some yesterday. It's just so strong that I wouldn't have ever thought it would be safe in an aquarium. 

      I am using Prime but wondered if I should add daily or every other day? I'm sorry I'm such a PITA! I'm not trying to be. Just trying to understand and rebound from the bad info and guidance I had received.  I also need to try to find a good place to buy fish. The only places I know of are Petsmart, Petco, Jacks etc.... I tried looking for privately owned shops but I can't locate any in the Columbus area. I did find a place near Dayton (Gerbers I believe) that is HUGE. They sell both fresh and saltwater, breed diff species and have all kinds of cool stuff but Dayton is 1 1/2 hrs away. Kinda far to drive for fish but st least it's an idea. 

      Ray I really do appreciate your time and all your help! Thank you so much!!


      Sent from my iPhone

      On Dec 31, 2014, at 12:52 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Okay, I'm glad to hear you topped off the tank with some hot tap water.  You need to get a Python though, to make life easier.  I do have to say though, that with your statement of, "I had to refill the tank with the garden hose and being in Ohio, that water was COLD !!," I saw no other choice in understanding this no other way than you having filled your tank with COLD water < g >.  You made no mention of filling it only 3/4 of the way with cold water.  Well at least only the few nitrifiers left on top of the gravel got the worst of it, and 54 o isn't terribly cold.
       
      OH, you got a Marina Aquavac for Christmas.  GREAT; I guess all you'll need now is to get the right adapters for it, to fit your faucets.  That's gonna save you a lot of work.  I don't know how you managed to carry those full buckets of water up until now.  Yes, I did read that you have two Angelfish in your emergency tank, but had forgotten about them needing to go back into the 55.  That's going to make things more difficult as you can't do the fishless-cycle thing with adding household ammonia.  With only these two fish in the tank though, you shouldn't be getting large amounts of ammonia and when it's finally cycled, it won't be cycled for a very large (like 3 pp) amount of ammonia capable of handling the waste of very many more fish.  It will be cycled to handle the waste level of only these two fish, meaning that you'll need to add the rest of your planned fish slowly, a few at a time, to give the cycle time to increase to the capacity to handle the waste from the additional fish. 
       
      I'm almost wondering if it would be feasible to keep the Angels in the emergency tank during the cycling of the (fishless) cycling of the 55, and making 90% PWC's on the emergency tank twice a week.  How large is this emergency tank, and what did you do with the Whisper?  Maybe you could run the partially-cycled Whisper on the emergency tank.  Alright, I didn't read that far ahead.  I see in your next paragraph that you saved the Whisper's media. 
       
      If you're keeping the two Angelfish in the 55, then Yes disregard my instructions on adding household ammonia -- as I mentioned in my first paragraph.  Ideally, a tank should be cycled to be able to convert about 3 ppm of ammonia produced daily by all your fishes (fishes in this case referring to more than one species of fish, as used in scientific literature).  This 3 ppm ammonia level that a tank would be cycled to handle is roughly what a properly stocked tank of fish would produce in one day.  By this, you can see that the ammonia produced only by the two Angelfish will not grow as large of colonies of nitrifying bacteria that will be needed to handle the waste from a full tank of fishes.  By slowly adding the workload on these bacteria with small additions of fishes, you'll gradually increase the cycle's capacity to handle the waste from more fish. 
       
      I see that any nitrate in the 55 right now is the result of the 5% old water allowed to remain.  Your numbers look good and you may also expect the ammonia to drop as a result of having only two fish to add more ammonia even as much of this in one day; at the very most, if it rises, it shouldn't be by very much.  With the nitrite level being at 0.50 ppm, whereas it was zero yesterday, this shows that these particular bacteria are converting the ammonia.  I'm assuming you're using Prime to prevent any ammonia from being toxic, especially at this higher pH).  If not, continue to use it now.  As the nitrite can only be expected to rise from here on until those bacteria start multiplying more, keep those two TBS (Tablespoons) of salt in the water at all times.
       
      I'd like to hope that the 5 ppm of nitrate is the result of bacteria converting some of this nitrite, but I really doubt that, as nice as that would be.  Noticing your your two hardness readings starting to drop.  Note that nothing in the tank can induce the GH to decrease -- it MUST remain at 8 dGH if that's what it was yesterday.  It is what it is and nothing will change that except water evaporation increasing its value.  We'll need to keep an eye on the KH and any further decrease of it, but with the pH being at 8, you can't use very much buffer to stabilize it at 6 as it may increase the pH when doing so.  We'll play it by ear though and digest these numbers daily.
       
      Ray
           
       
      In a message dated 12/31/2014 11:43:12 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Nope! Do not assume..... I filled the first 75% of the tank with cold water from the hose. I then did the install of the Fluval.  After it was ready I finished filling the tank using hot tap water that I lugged with buckets. I started the Fluval then the heater then lastly the Penguin. The thermometer on the tank read 62 degrees when everything was started. Our cold tap water is 54 degrees.

       I don't have a Python but I do have a Marina Aquavac that I rec'd for Christmas. Up until the night I needed to use it I didn't know that none of the adapters would fit any of our faucets, not even the utility sink in the basement. I did find that one end of the adapter would fit the faucet outside. Being unable to physically lug all that water(I'm on disability),  I chose to use the faucet that was available for the largest portion of the fill. 

      The fourth paragraph of your last post states "as you no longer have fish in this tank" but as I told you in my last reply I do have two fish that I couldn't re-home and that needed to go back into that tank. They are two medium Angels. 

      Yes, the 1st ammonia test was done before I drained the tank. The numbers for today will be at the end of this post. If there was room for the whisper without it looking so overcrowded I would have left it, but with everything else, it just appeared too crowded. I still have it all, including the filter media in a bucket. I had to choose between the Penguin and the Whisper and the Penguin seemed like a better choice. 

      I tested our tap water for nitrates when you asked me to test it for ammonia. The nitrate test result was zero. 
      I'm assuming that your instructions for adding ammonia are based on your thought that there weren't any fish in the tank. Should I disregard?  Ideally what range of numbers are ideal for a community tank? 

      Since this isn't going to be a fishless cycle, should I add others to aid in getting thru the cycle? With the ammonia at 1 should I begin adding Prime? If so, would it be daily or every other day? Do I do PWC's with the numbers at these levels 

      Today's numbers are:
      High PH 8,  Ammonia 1, Nitrites .50, nitrates 5, GH 7, KH 5

      Peg


      On Dec 31, 2014, at 2:26 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@...> so wrote:"

       

      Peg,
       
      To begin with, even though you didn't have the Fluval together yet after you filled the tank, should I assume that you started the Penguin 350 filter?  One other thing, getting right to the gravel, the nitrifiers reside only on the top surface and down to a depth of less than 1/2".  They can't live in anaerobic conditions any deeper than this, so they're not found throughout the gravel.  When you removed the UGF, and when you did the thorough vacuuming of it, you most likely would have mixed in the gravel's top layer with the bulk of the remaining gravel.  It would have been difficult to keep the top layer of gravel intact, as not mixing it with the rest.  At this point, there would be no further concern for not destroying all of the bacteria residing on top of the gravel as it would have ceased to exist when buried under the rest of it.
       
      Now, getting back to the Penguin 350, after you refilled the tank if you started the filter right away you would have subjected the nitrifiers in this filter and on its bio-wheels to extreme shock, dependuing on how cold this new water was.  I's quite likely that you decimated a good percentage of them.  I won't ask you why you chose "to use the garden hose to refill the t, but I will ask why you couldn't have used an in-housÿfe faucet with which you could have mixed in part of this water from the hot water faucet.  I'm still unsure if you have a Python yet or not, but that would have been the thing to use in place of the garden hose if you have one.  At the very least, just a few buckets of warmer water mixed in as the garden hose was filling the tank with COLD water would have helped in preserving your nitrifiers.
       
      While Nitrosomonas (Nitrosomas) can tolerate a temperature down to 35 o - 36 o, and while Nitrobacters can tolerate a temperature down to 38 o - 39 o, to subject them to a sudden temperature of even 45 o, is harsh on them.  Dr. Tim's One & Only supplement is recommended to be kept in the refrigerator -- and the average refrigerator is recommended to be kept at 39 o F, but this product's contents aren't plunged instantly to 39 o when placed in the fridge.  You may have little nitrifying bacteria left to continue the cycle from where it was, and may need to start from scratch.  Actually, Nitrosomonos thrive at their best at a temperature of approximately 86 o, and Nitrobacters thrive best at a temperature of approximately 89 o -- some reports even say slightly higher for each.  While they still do well at the 78 o -- 80 o temperatures where we need them, this may illustrate why a sudden drop to such COLD temperatures would be devastating to them. 
       
      Well at least you did a great job in getting rid of all the debris in the gravel -- which was sorely need to do.  As you no longer have fish in this tank, cycling it should be fairly straight-forward.  So, going to your water testing in your first paragraph here, I'm assuming that these ammonia tests were done before you even removed the UGF plates -- since you give other figures towards the end of your message, of the parameters of the new water.  If the pH of your old water was still down near pH 6.8, this fully explains why you had zero Free-Ammonia.  At this pH, all of it will be in the form of Ammonium -- your Total Ammonia will be 100% Ammonium.  That the test came up as showing a deep purple, shows that it was off your API test chart scale having an upper limit of 8.0 ppm, as I stated that I suspected.  No, I've never ever seen a level that high.
       
      I thought you may have decided on removing the Whisper filter, just by your enthusiasm for doing this when you posted last.  I'm not sure if you thought about saving whatever bacteria that had developed in it up to this point, which you could have now used to seed the Penguin 350.     
       
      Getting to your test results of the refilled tank, as your regular pH test kit only goes up to pH 7.6, and since you high pH test result is so much higher, your regular test result is useless as we know the pH is much higher than pH 7.6.  There's really no reason to even consider it.  We know your tank's pH is 8.0.  With your tap water testing at zero ammonia, and with your tank water now testing at 1.0 ppm -- AFTER making a 95% PWC -- this begins to show just how much ammonia had accumulated in your old water, if the 5% residual old water shows a level of 1.0 ppm after being diluted by a rate of 19 to 1 by the fresh water.  It's a bit surprising you have any nitrate, but this is obviously due to the small amount of old water left in the tank (unless your tap water contains some nitrate).  With zero nitrite again, this is to be expected having mostly all new water, although there's probably a trace of it left from the old water that's too small to test for.  Your two hardness (GH & KH) levels are really quite good.  Some would say they're just about ideal for average community tank fish.  Your KH isn't too low that it doesn't have at least moderate buffering capacity -- it does.
       
      So now, with 1.0 ppm of ammonia right now, you'll need to increase it to 3.0 ppm by adding 3 or 4 drops of clear household ammonia per gallon (not sudsy, as I've said before).  Monitor the ammonia level daily and add more ammonia as need to keep the level up at 3.0 ppm each day.  At first, you won't need to add much, if any, but as time goes by you'll need to add a bit more each day, until it reaches a point where you'll need to add the full 3 - 4 drops daily; the test will show zero ppm on these following days, showing that the bacteria are in sufficient amounts that they can handle this amount of ammonia given off from fish if you were to introduce them.  As your tank would be fully cycled at this point, this IS the time to add your fish and to stop adding any more ammonia.  You'll first need to do enough of a water change to remove the build up of nitrate, which should be brought down to at least 40 ppm, or preferably lower.  Right now, this is just the start and we'll guide you as the cycle progresses. 
       
      Ray 
       
       
       
      In a message dated 12/30/2014 11:10:10 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hey there!! 
      I finally rec'd the Seachem Ammonia Testing Kit. I tested the Aquarium water and also my tap. Both free and total ammonia tests show 0 ammonia.  The Aquarium tested with free ammonia 0, total ammonia was deep purple, darker than the darkest blue on the color strip. Have you ever seen anything like that??

      I guess the aquarium count is a moot point now because last night I started removing the UGF and vacuuming all the substrate. By the time I had done a thorough cleaning about 95% of the water was gone. 
      I had to refill the tank with the garden hose and being in Ohio, that water was COLD!! I still had to put the Fluval together so I let it sit for awhile. Was hoping it would warm up a little bit at least. My tank is a Marineland 55 gal with the middle brace. The lid has those cut-out spaces on each side for filters etc....the right side is filled with the Penguin 350 and then on the left I had that whisper that would share space with Fluval. It was crowded and looked it so I pulled the a Whisper out and put the Fluval in the space. Taking the Whisper down gave me opportunity to space the Fluval tubes apart and it all looks nice and neat. 

      Although I vacuumed the gravel really well I didn't add water and rinse it. I was trying not to destroy ALL the bacteria. I also left all 4 filters and both bio-wheels in the Penguin without rinsing them. After I had filled the tank with about 6-8 inches of water I stirred the gravel up to see if there were still going to be a lot of debris or any fuzzles floating around and there weren't. It looked good. I was glad because I really didn't want ti rinse all the gravel if I didn't have to. 

      The only fish I had left were the two that were in the emergency tank I set up. I didn't have filter media to maintain that tank so I knew I needed to move them.  Today the tank was up to temp so I treated with Prime them added a  full bottle of Safe Start (I didn't know until tonight that Amazon carried Dr.Tims or I would've ordered - going to order this week to keep on on hand). Two hours later I moved the Angels over to the 55 gal. So far, so good. 

      Early this evening I tested the tank water. This is what I came up with:  PH 7.6,  HPH 8, Ammonia 1, Nitrites 0, Nitrates 5, GH 8, KH 6.  Do you think maybe the stuff left in the gravel along with what was in the Penguins filter media are enough to maybe take this forward in the cycle? 

      Peg
      Soon Opening: Hoopin' It Up Designs
                                Custom Embroidery & Embellishments

      On Dec 29, 2014, at 1:10 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.comwrote:

       

      Hi Peg,
       
      Yes, the holidays are just fine and now with New Year's Day coming up, it will just serve to extend them for another half a week.  Enjoy them while you can.  Yes, sooner or later things will normalize.
       
      Rehoming your remaining fish should make things much easier from here on in.   I'm eager to see what your ammonia tests out to be when you Seachem kit arrives.  Typically, and unless your water supplier  gives you super chloraminated water, most water companies use a concentration of around 4 ppm chloramine in their drinking water.  As the chlorine and the ammonia combine at a ratio of 7.6 to 1, you probably have about 0.5 ppm of ammonia in your tap wa

      (Message over 64 KB, truncated)
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56360 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/3/2015
      Subject: Re: Questions on re-establishing tank
      AOL Email
      Peg,
       
      I just wanted to get back here on this one for a minute.  Concerning the 5 gallon tank, I was wondering how often (and how much) you were changing the water in this tank when you lost those frogs due to ammonia build up (?).  When I suggested putting the two Angels in this tank, I also said to change most of the water as often as needed, even if it was twice a week and 90% PWC's, to avoid any ammonia build up.  I wouldn't have recommended it unless it was the best thing for the fish.  They would have been better off in this 5 gallon tank with no ammonia to stress them, than to now have to be subjected to 6 weeks of cycling the 55 gallon.  With the addition of 3 Cory's though, this makes any other option impossible.  Cory's are never a good choice for maintaining in any water having high levels of any impurities.  They're scale-less fish, which much more easily absorb any impurities through their skin, but this is a moot point now with them already being added.  As I said, cycling a tank is so much easier doing a fishless cycle and you've now just unnecessary taken on a job which will be so much harder in minimizing the stress on fish.  I said a short time back, that we (everyone on here being capable of giving advice) prefer fish-less cycling of a tank whenever possible.
       
      Ray
         
       
      In a message dated 1/3/2015 4:46:09 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hey Ray!!
      My hubby picked-up the correct hose adapter and it's now on my utility sink waiting for me to
      take it for another spin. I put together a bin of things I may need when I go to use it so I don't have to 
      be running around looking for stuff while it's running or running around trying to find things so I can get started. I included a bowl and instant read digital thermometer so I could get as close as possible to the tank temp.  Carrying all those water buckets really took it out of me.   It wasn't so bad filling that little 5 gal bucket to take care of the 5 gal tank but the 55 wore me out. I can't even imagine how big your tanks are or how many you have. Not too long ago you mentioned breeding or something. Is that your profession?  How many tanks and how many did you own and do you own now?? I looked in the pics area thinking there might be some of all your tanks but there are so many folders that I never found it. 

      The 5 gallon hex was the original home for my African Dwarf Frogs. Even though they were teeny the tank was too small.  My first frog didn't make it and it was after that when I looked for someone to help guide me and found Suzy and Alyce. The next two frogs did better but Suzy really kept on me about moving them to a 10 gal aquarium. She knew that they'd just keep doing poorly in that 5 gal. 
      I had to wait until I had the funds to buy everything I needed and after I did they got moved but I still lost my boy frog.  My little girl Fannie is the only female I have now. She lives with the two boys in the 10 gal. Suzy and Alyce are now guiding me through the cycling of the tank.  With the 5 gal I had to do 50% water changes every other day just to fight the ammonia build up. 

      Losing the frogs in that tank and knowing how hard it was to keep things alive in it were my biggest reason to refrain from putting the Angels in there. They are way bigger than the frogs and I know how
      S
      You said you processed a refund but will you re-charge me when the pkg arrives??

      Sent from my iPhone't go hide. That same night I put food in the feeding ring and he ate with me standing there watching him. I hated the thought of netting him, moving him and starting all over with him traumatized again. He's just trusting me and I don't want to take the chance he'll never get past that. The other one isn't as timid or wasn't as traumatized, just this one guy. 

      Having these two alone in this tank has helped me learn about feeding them. You told me to only feed what they can eat in 5 minutes but that's hard to gauge when I have no experience or no reference point, nothing to look at to tell me ok they're good with 10 pieces of flake food but 15 is too many etc... I've been feeding them by putting 3-4 pieces into the feeding ring. After they get eaten I'll add a few more and I do this until they stop eating. After a few minutes I've been scooping out the leftovers with a brine shrimp net. 

      I haven't started vacuuming the gravel yet or doing any water changes. I wasn't quite sure when those activities should start.  After dinner I'm going to get three Cory cats to clean up the bottom. I'm not planning to add anything else until after the cycle.  When it is time to get more,  I want to keep only non-aggressive, community fish. I had luck with fish coming from Petsmart so I will prob stay with them. I do want to set up a 19 gal quarantine tanks but I've got to hold off on spending for awhile. By the time the tank gets cycled I should be able to set it up but even then it'll have to be cycled too won't it?  Fish keeping has been an expensive hobby. My husband told me last night how much I've spent 
      In it in the last month and a half and my jaw hit the floor. He feels two tanks in our living room are enough. The funds I've used to get them going took a bite from savings.  His exact words "these aquariums are a money pit."  For the next 6-8 weeks I'll concentrate on getting through the cycle and just learning to take care of and clean up after the 5 fish.  I hope 5 will be a good number to cycle with. I know adding afterwards will be slow but that's what I need to do to co-exist with husband and family. 

      I added the bottle of Safe Start at the beginning and I've been adding Prime every day. When should I begin vacuuming gravel and doing water changes? Should I plan to replace filters during or after the cycle?  

      Do I replace water in the tank as its evaporated or is this only done at the water change so the salt can be adjusted accordingly? I understand the water/salt ratio I just didn't know about replacing the evaporated water. 



      On Dec 31, 2014, at 10:44 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      No biggie on the hot water miscommunication.  As you saw, I included a big Grin at the need of my statement.  You just forgot to add that little detail (LOL).  That Aquavac is going to save you a humongous amount of work; those 5 gallon buckets weigh nearly 40 pounds when nearly full.  I'd call that heavy! 
       pm
      I see what you mean about the emergency tank being only a 5 gallon hex.  Not really meant for any fish long-term, although holding a fish or two in quarantine requires a full month to be assured they're disease-free.  BTW, I hope you're aware that such emergency tanks' main purpose -- besides being used as a hospital tank -- is to use them to isolate and observe new fish for a month before adding them to your main tank so that you don't spread any possible disease to your other fish.  As 5 gallons is small, you might watch for PetSmart's periodic $1 per gallon tank sales.  You could pick up a 10 gallon tank for 10 Bucks at those times. 
       
      Looks like the Whisper is entirely out of the question for this small tank -- and the dried out media no longer contains live nitrifiers.  As for holding the Angels in this hex tank, cycling the 55 would take up to 6 weeks so this would be long-term, but it would be much less stressful on the fish, not subjecting them to abnormal ammonia levels.  Even ammonium is toxic, albeit much less so than ammonia.  IF you were to cycle the tank with fish in it, it would be much more of a benefit in using more for this purpose than less, as the finished cycle would be able to convert a larger amount of ammonia.  BUT, as long as we now have this fish-less cycling option, we NEVER advocate cycling a tank with fish if it can be avoided.  It is easier, and surer, to do a fish-less cycle -- and no stress to the fish.
       
      You do understand it correctly.  After the tank is cycled with the two Angelfish, you'll need add any other fish slowly so that the filter can catch up with handling the increased load.  Yes also, on cycling the tank with fish being a big pain whthe sun don't shine -- and with inadequate results.  The benefits of a fish-less cycle are, that you're not subjecting the fish to any stress and you can have the cycles' end result being capable of converting any amount of ammonia that you anticipate your eventual bioload will be when finally adding your fish.  An example, you could cycle the tank so that the nitrifiers will convert 10 ppm daily and if your eventual load of fish only produce 3 ppm of ammonia daily the worst scenario is that a portion of the bacteria will die off until the remainder can subsist on only 3 ppm produced daily.  You can (and should) add all of your fish at the time your tank is fully cycled.  When cycling with fish, it's a constant catch-up game in needing to slowly increase the cycle.  
       
      Getting back to holding the Angels in the 5 gallon tank, I'm picturing their body size (without fins) as being about 2" in diameter -- correct me if I'm wrong.  Changing out 90% of their water each time that's needed doesn't need to be stressful.  If doing this, with being sure the Aquavac is surely attached to this tank, just run the water more slowly -- and add the needed amount of Prime just before you turn the faucets on.  You need to be sure you can control the temperature properly though.  If you can't, have the Aquavac fill the 5 gallon bucket that you'd keep along side the 5 gallon tank and then just pour it in slowly from there after making sure the temperature's correct.  No carrying the bucket any long distance.  Normally, I don't suggest doing 90% PWC's, as for one thing they're not generally needed. but being a strong proponent of the notion that you can never change too much water (the more fresh water the fish are living in, the better they'll thrive), I've been doing 90% PWC's on all the tanks in my hatchery for about 50 years and 40% to 50% PWC's for the preceding 17 years -- and I've had about 3200 gallons in my tanks for the last 25 years (I cut back < g >).  
       
      As for the maximum fish load for your tank, it's not just the number of your fish this depends on but it's also their size (their full eventual size when they reach maturity) -- as they need the space to eventually grow to their maximum size.  You can't go by just the size they are now as that won't allow them room to grow.  There's a rule of thumb estimate that works fairly well for fish up to 3" (when full grown) and which works better for slenderer fish (like Tetras as an example) rather than more heavily-bodied fish (like Platies as an example), and that's to consider 1" per gallon.  While you want a nicely filled tank of fish though, you should never max it out with fish but always leave some room for contingencies -- like power outages during which you have no surface circulation to exchanges gases (carbon dioxide and oxygen).  You could have five 1 1/2" Cardinal Tetras, five 2" Zebra Danios, four 2 1/2" Cory's, two 5" Angelfish,  five 1 3/4" Rasboras and three 2 3/4" Swordtails as one example.  This would total to about 50" of fish.  You need to learn how not to overfeed though.  As I stated a while back, feed just enough that they'll clean up in 5 minutes. 
       
      Ordinarily, salt is not needed in the freshwater aquarium, even though it does have purposes at specific times and is useful in helping treat some diseases.  Some hobbyists use a token amount of 1 TBL of salt per five gallons -- which is not necessary in the slightest.  When cycling a tank with fish, and with subjecting them to possible high levels of ammonia and/or nitrite, even a much smaller amount of salt -- like a pinch per gallon (or less) -- will prevent both ammonia poisoning and nitrite poisoning.  Even the very small amount of 1 TBL of salt per about 25 gallons I recommended can really be reduced to 1 TBL for the whole 55 gallons, although I wanted to ensure the fish would be "doubly safe" (LOL).  Still, 1 TBL of salt per 25 gallons (actually, per 27.5 gallons) is minute.  You only need to be concerned with salt if you're having fish in the 55.  The same goes for Prime, which would be safer to add every day rather than every other day.  Yes, you have that correct, in the amount of salt you need to add back after these PWC amounts. 
       
      If fish-less cycling, and maintaining a 3 ppm level of ammonia requiring the addition of 3 to 4 drops per gallon, you only need to add 3 (or 4) teaspoons of household ammonia to the tank (drops can vary in size).  A teaspoon holds 50 drops.  As it needs to be maintained there until it reaches a point where all 3 ppm will be consumed by the following day, if for instance the ammonia drops to 2 ppm on the following day, you just need to add back about 1 teaspoon of household ammonia to bring it back up to 3 ppm. 
       
      You're not a pain as long as you can put this stuff to good use.  I don't mind giving some advice if it helps you succeed.  That's part of why I moderate here, to help hobbyists like you become successful at keeping fish.  It sounds like it would pay to drive to Gerbers when you're ready for more fish.  You could try PetSmart or Petco if you saw something you really liked that wasn't found at Gerbers, but these fish should definitely be quarantined until you can be sure they're disease-free. 
       
      HAPPY NEW YEAR,gry
       
      Ray
       
              
       
      In a message dated 12/31/2014 4:38:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      I'm sorry I wasn't clear and didn't tell you that I did add hot tap water to the tank. 
      I think the Aquavac is going to be s big help. Even though I only use a 4 & 5 gal bucket to fill, they're really heavy. Even without the use of the suction caused by the water valve, it drained really fast. I got a 50 ft hose so I'll be able to hook up to our utility sink I the basement. When I have to add water for the frogs I pull samples and use the digital thermometer to try to get the water as close as possible to what it is in the tank.  
      My DH is on his way right now to the hardware store to get the right adapter so I'll be able to use next time I have a water change. 
      Keeping the Angels in the emergency tank wouldn't be so bad if it were bigger. It's only a 5 gal hex so it was really crowded in there with the two fish and the whisper like HOB filter I had to rig.  The filter took up a lot of room. I thought about moving the whisper over there but it's a tad deeper do it would crowd the fish even more. Since it's not long term I guess I could move them back and do the fishless cycle. 

      It seems like going through a cycle with two fish will be a bigger pain in the end because if I understand correctly, after the tank cycles I'll have to add new fish really slowly so the filters can catch up to the new amount of stuff in the water. If I add too quickly then I'll screw it all up and possibly have to go through another cycle??

      If that's true then it seems I should add some new fish now, maybe some corys(?) or I should get these fish out and just do what's needed for the fishless cycle.  Let me ask you this.... In the long run which choice will make the aquarium a more stable home. Are there add'l benefits to the fishless cycle?

      After cycling, what is the maximum number of fish that should be in the tank? I don't even know what the correct capacity is but I know I don't want to put too many fish in there and ever get back to the place it was. 

      If I move the fish back to the emergency tank should I try to use the filter media from the whisper? It's dried out now. Can the Bacteria live in a dry environment or would it have needed to remain moist? 

      I'm surprised at adding salt into the the freshwater tank. What is its purpose?  
      If the fish stay in will I do PWCs? Do if I did a 50% water change then I'd add back 1 TBS but if I did s 25% water change I'd add back 1/2 TBS salt? 

      I'm also surprised at adding household ammonia to the tank but I did but some yesterday. It's just so strong that I wouldn't have ever thought it would be safe in an aquarium. 

      I am using Prime but wondered if I should add daily or every other day? I'm sorry I'm such a PITA! I'm not trying to be. Just trying to understand and rebound from the bad info and guidance I had received.  I also need to try to find a good place to buy fish. The only places I know of are Petsmart, Petco, Jacks etc.... I tried looking for privately owned shops but I can't locate any in the Columbus area. I did find a place near Dayton (Gerbers I believe) that is HUGE. They sell both fresh and saltwater, breed diff species and have all kinds of cool stuff but Dayton is 1 1/2 hrs away. Kinda far to drive for fish but st least it's an idea. 

      Ray I really do appreciate your time and all your help! Thank you so much!!


      Sent from my iPhone

      On Dec 31, 2014, at 12:52 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Okay, I'm glad to hear you topped off the tank with some hot tap water.  You need to get a Python though, to make life easier.  I do have to say though, that with your statement of, "I had to refill the tank with the garden hose and being in Ohio, that water was COLD !!," I saw no other choice in understanding this no other way than you having filled your tank with COLD water < g >.  You made no mention of filling it only 3/4 of the way with cold water.  Well at least only the few nitrifiers left on top of the gravel got the worst of it, and 54 o isn't terribly cold.
       
      OH, you got a Marina Aquavac for Christmas.  GREAT; I guess all you'll need now is to get the right adapters for it, to fit your faucets.  That's gonna save you a lot of work.  I don't know how you managed to carry those full buckets of water up until now.  Yes, I did read that you have two Angelfish in your emergency tank, but had forgotten about them needing to go back into the 55.  That's going to make things more difficult as you can't do the fishless-cycle thing with adding household ammonia.  With only these two fish in the tank though, you shouldn't be getting large amounts of ammonia and when it's finally cycled, it won't be cycled for a very large (like 3 pp) amount of ammonia capable of handling the waste of very many more fish.  It will be cycled to handle the waste level of only these two fish, meaning that you'll need to add the rest of your planned fish slowly, a few at a time, to give the cycle time to increase to the capacity to handle the waste from the additional fish. 
       
      I'm almost wondering if it would be feasible to keep the Angels in the emergency tank during the cycling of the (fishless) cycling of the 55, and making 90% PWC's on the emergency tank twice a week.  How large is this emergency tank, and what did you do with the Whisper?  Maybe you could run the partially-cycled Whisper on the emergency tank.  Alright, I didn't read that far ahead.  I see in your next paragraph that you saved the Whisper's media. 
       
      If you're keeping the two Angelfish in the 55, then Yes disregard my instructions on adding household ammonia -- as I mentioned in my first paragraph.  Ideally, a tank should be cycled to be able to convert about 3 ppm of ammonia produced daily by all your fishes (fishes in this case referring to more than one species of fish, as used in scientific literature).  This 3 ppm ammonia level that a tank would be cycled to handle is roughly what a properly stocked tank of fish would produce in one day.  By this, you can see that the ammonia produced only by the two Angelfish will not grow as large of colonies of nitrifying bacteria that will be needed to handle the waste from a full tank of fishes.  By slowly adding the workload on these bacteria with small additions of fishes, you'll gradually increase the cycle's capacity to handle the waste from more fish. 
       
      I see that any nitrate in the 55 right now is the result of the 5% old water allowed to remain.  Your numbers look good and you may also expect the ammonia to drop as a result of having only two fish to add more ammonia even as much of this in one day; at the very most, if it rises, it shouldn't be by very much.  With the nitrite level being at 0.50 ppm, whereas it was zero yesterday, this shows that these particular bacteria are converting the ammonia.  I'm assuming you're using Prime to prevent any ammonia from being toxic, especially at this higher pH).  If not, continue to use it now.  As the nitrite can only be expected to rise from here on until those bacteria start multiplying more, keep those two TBS (Tablespoons) of salt in the water at all times.
       
      I'd like to hope that the 5 ppm of nitrate is the result of bacteria converting some of this nitrite, but I really doubt that, as nice as that would be.  Noticing your your two hardness readings starting to drop.  Note that nothing in the tank can induce the GH to decrease -- it MUST remain at 8 dGH if that's what it was yesterday.  It is what it is and nothing will change that except water evaporation increasing its value.  We'll need to keep an eye on the KH and any further decrease of it, but with the pH being at 8, you can't use very much buffer to stabilize it at 6 as it may increase the pH when doing so.  We'll play it by ear though and digest these numbers daily.
       
      Ray
           
       
      In a message dated 12/31/2014 11:43:12 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Nope! Do not assume..... I filled the first 75% of the tank with cold water from the hose. I then did the install of the Fluval.  After it was ready I finished filling the tank using hot tap water that I lugged with buckets. I started the Fluval then the heater then lastly the Penguin. The thermometer on the tank read 62 degrees when everything was started. Our cold tap water is 54 degrees.

       I don't have a Python but I do have a Marina Aquavac that I rec'd for Christmas. Up until the night I needed to use it I didn't know that none of the adapters would fit any of our faucets, not even the utility sink in the basement. I did find that one end of the adapter would fit the faucet outside. Being unable to physically lug all that water(I'm on disability),  I chose to use the faucet that was available for the largest portion of the fill. 

      The fourth paragraph of your last post states "as you no longer have fish in this tank" but as I told you in my last reply I do have two fish that I couldn't re-home and that needed to go back into that tank. They are two medium Angels. 

      Yes, the 1st ammonia test was done before I drained the tank. The numbers for today will be at the end of this post. If there was room for the whisper without it looking so overcrowded I would have left it, but with everything else, it just appeared too crowded. I still have it all, including the filter media in a bucket. I had to choose between the Penguin and the Whisper and the Penguin seemed like a better choice. 

      I tested our tap water for nitrates when you asked me to test it for ammonia. The nitrate test result was zero. 
      I'm assuming that your instructions for adding ammonia are based on your thought that there weren't any fish in the tank. Should I disregard?  Ideally what range of numbers are ideal for a community tank? 

      Since this isn't going to be a fishless cycle, should I add others to aid in getting thru the cycle? With the ammonia at 1 should I begin adding Prime? If so, would it be daily or every other day? Do I do PWC's with the numbers at these levels 

      Today's numbers are:
      High PH 8,  Ammonia 1, Nitrites .50, nitrates 5, GH 7, KH 5

      Peg


      On Dec 31, 2014, at 2:26 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@...> so wrote:"

       

      Peg,
       
      To begin with, even though you didn't have the Fluval together yet after you filled the tank, should I assume that you started the Penguin 350 filter?  One other thing, getting right to the gravel, the nitrifiers reside only on the top surface and down to a depth of less than 1/2".  They can't live in anaerobic conditions any deeper than this, so they're not found throughout the gravel.  When you removed the UGF, and when you did the thorough vacuuming of it, you most likely would have mixed in the gravel's top layer with the bulk of the remaining gravel.  It would have been difficult to keep the top layer of gravel intact, as not mixing it with the rest.  At this point, there would be no further concern for not destroying all of the bacteria residing on top of the gravel as it would have ceased to exist when buried under the rest of it.
       
      Now, getting back to the Penguin 350, after you refilled the tank if you started the filter right away you would have subjected the nitrifiers in this filter and on its bio-wheels to extreme shock, dependuing on how cold this new water was.  I's quite likely that you decimated a good percentage of them.  I won't ask you why you chose "to use the garden hose to refill the t, but I will ask why you couldn't have used an in-housÿfe faucet with which you could have mixed in part of this water from the hot water faucet.  I'm still unsure if you have a Python yet or not, but that would have been the thing to use in place of the garden hose if you have one.  At the very least, just a few buckets of warmer water mixed in as the garden hose was filling the tank with COLD water would have helped in preserving your nitrifiers.
       
      While Nitrosomonas (Nitrosomas) can tolerate a temperature down to 35 o - 36 o, and while Nitrobacters can tolerate a temperature down to 38 o - 39 o, to subject them to a sudden temperature of even 45 o, is harsh on them.  Dr. Tim's One & Only supplement is recommended to be kept in the refrigerator -- and the average refrigerator is recommended to be kept at 39 o F, but this product's contents aren't plunged instantly to 39 o when placed in the fridge.  You may have little nitrifying bacteria left to continue the cycle from where it was, and may need to start from scratch.  Actually, Nitrosomonos thrive at their best at a temperature of approximately 86 o, and Nitrobacters thrive best at a temperature of approximately 89 o -- some reports even say slightly higher for each.  While they still do well at the 78 o -- 80 o temperatures where we need them, this may illustrate why a sudden drop to such COLD temperatures would be devastating to them. 
       
      Well at least you did a great job in getting rid of all the debris in the gravel -- which was sorely need to do.  As you no longer have fish in this tank, cycling it should be fairly straight-forward.  So, going to your water testing in your first paragraph here, I'm assuming that these ammonia tests were done before you even removed the UGF plates -- since you give other figures towards the end of your message, of the parameters of the new water.  If the pH of your old water was still down near pH 6.8, this fully explains why you had zero Free-Ammonia.  At this pH, all of it will be in the form of Ammonium -- your Total Ammonia will be 100% Ammonium.  That the test came up as showing a deep purple, shows that it was off your API test chart scale having an upper limit of 8.0 ppm, as I stated that I suspected.  No, I've never ever seen a level that high.
       
      I thought you may have decided on removing the Whisper filter, just by your enthusiasm for doing this when you posted last.  I'm not sure if you thought about saving whatever bacteria that had developed in it up to this point, which you could have now used to seed the Penguin 350.     
       
      Getting to your test results of the refilled tank, as your regular pH test kit only goes up to pH 7.6, and since you high pH test result is so much higher, your regular test result is useless as we know the pH is much higher than pH 7.6.  There's really no reason to even consider it.  We know your tank's pH is 8.0.  With your tap water testing at zero ammonia, and with your tank water now testing at 1.0 ppm -- AFTER making a 95% PWC -- this begins to show just how much ammonia had accumulated in your old water, if the 5% residual old water shows a level of 1.0 ppm after being diluted by a rate of 19 to 1 by the fresh water.  It's a bit surprising you have any nitrate, but this is obviously due to the small amount of old water left in the tank (unless your tap water contains some nitrate).  With zero nitrite again, this is to be expected having mostly all new water, although there's probably a trace of it left from the old water that's too small to test for.  Your two hardness (GH & KH) levels are really quite good.  Some would say they're just about ideal for average community tank fish.  Your KH isn't too low that it doesn't have at least moderate buffering capacity -- it does.
       
      So now, with 1.0 ppm of ammonia right now, you'll need to increase it to 3.0 ppm by adding 3 or 4 drops of clear household ammonia per gallon (not sudsy, as I've said before).  Monitor the ammonia level daily and add more ammonia as need to keep the level up at 3.0 ppm each day.  At first, you won't need to add much, if any, but as time goes by you'll need to add a bit more each day, until it reaches a point where you'll need to add the full 3 - 4 drops daily; the test will show zero ppm on these following days, showing that the bacteria are in sufficient amounts that they can handle this amount of ammonia given off from fish if you were to introduce them.  As your tank would be fully cycled at this point, this IS the time to add your fish and to stop adding any more ammonia.  You'll first need to do enough of a water change to remove the build up of nitrate, which should be brought down to at least 40 ppm, or preferably lower.  Right now, this is just the start and we'll guide you as the cycle progresses. 
       
      Ray 
       
       
       
      In a message dated 12/30/2014 11:10:10 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hey there!! 
      I finally rec'd the Seachem Ammonia Testing Kit. I tested the Aquarium water and also my tap. Both free and total ammonia tests show 0 ammonia.  The Aquarium tested with free ammonia 0, total ammonia was deep purple, darker than the darkest blue on the color strip. Have you ever seen anything like that??

      I guess the aquarium count is a moot point now because last night I started removing the UGF and vacuuming all the substrate. By the time I had done a thorough cleaning about 95% of the water was gone. 
      I had to refill the tank with the garden hose and being in Ohio, that water was COLD!! I still had to put the Fluval together so I let it sit for awhile. Was hoping it would warm up a little bit at least. My tank is a Marineland 55 gal with the middle brace. The lid has those cut-out spaces on each side for filters etc....the right side is filled with the Penguin 350 and then on the left I had that whisper that would share space with Fluval. It was crowded and looked it so I pulled the a Whisper out and put the Fluval in the space. Taking the Whisper down gave me opportunity to space the Fluval tubes apart and it all looks nice and neat. 

      Although I vacuumed the gravel really well I didn't add water and rinse it. I was trying not to destroy ALL the bacteria. I also left all 4 filters and both bio-wheels in the Penguin without rinsing them. After I had filled the tank with about 6-8 inches of water I stirred the gravel up to see if there were still going to be a lot of debris or any fuzzles floating around and there weren't. It looked good. I was glad because I really didn't want ti rinse all the gravel if I didn't have to. 

      The only fish I had left were the two that were in the emergency tank I set up. I didn't have filter media to maintain that tank so I knew I needed to move them.  Today the tank was up to temp so I treated with Prime them added a  full bottle of Safe Start (I didn't know until tonight that Amazon carried Dr.Tims or I would've ordered - going to order this week to keep on on hand). Two hours later I moved the Angels over to the 55 gal. So far, so good. 

      Early this evening I tested the tank water. This is what I came up with:  PH 7.6,  HPH 8, Ammonia 1, Nitrites 0, Nitrates 5, GH 8, KH 6.  Do you think maybe the stuff left in the gravel along with what was in the Penguins filter media are enough to maybe take this forward in the cycle? 

      Peg
      Soon Opening: Hoopin' It Up Designs
                                Custom Embroidery & Embellishments

      On Dec 29, 2014, at 1:10 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.comwrote:

       

      Hi Peg,
       
      Yes, the holidays are just fine and now with New Year's Day coming up, it will just serve to extend them for another half a week.  Enjoy them while you can.  Yes, sooner or later things will normalize.
       
      Rehoming your remaining fish should make things much easier from here on in.   I'm eager to see what your ammonia tests out to be when you Seachem kit arrives.  Typically, and unless your water supplier  gives you super chloraminated water, most water companies use a concentration of around 4 ppm chloramine in their drinking water.  As the chlorine and the ammonia combine at a ratio of 7.6 to 1, you probably have about 0.5 ppm of ammonia in your tap water, but apparently nothing excessive above that.  Good to see that your ammonia test results are coming up minimal (zero?).  One thing I notice is that the high pH test resuolt of your tap water is pH 7.4 -- and you high pH test result of your aquarium water is exactly the same -- yet your low pH tests of these two different water shows a difference of pH 0.8.  I'm not understanding this at all.  While each test kit tests in a different range, they both should show a direct relationship to each other.  There should be no large difference in one test if the other test remains stable.  Maybe (hopefully) Dawn can join us to figure this one out as maybe I'm missing something, or else maybe there been an error in reading the tests.
       
      While the test colors for the nitrite may be "close" to either 2.0 ppm or 5.0 ppm, there's a huge difference in toxicity if fish were still involved.  Now, with you nitrate previously testing out at 20 ppm even through several PWC's you've made, only to test at 10.0 ppm now, does not seem possible since there's more nitrite available now to be converted into nitrate.  Have you made another large PWC just prior to testing for nitrate? 
       
      Without having any fish in the tank now, rest assured that you don't need to make those PWC's to keep the organic waste parameters down.  You will need to monitor them, to maintain the ammonia at a minimum level of about 3.0 ppm, but you no longer need to be concerned much about it being up at 8.0 ppm -- unless it tends to remain there (which I suspect it may, due to possible excess organic matter in the water).  But, if all starts to go well, as more (if more) ammonia is being converted, you'll need to add a small amount of clear (not sudsy) household ammonia to the tank to keep the level up at 3.0 ppm.  This is done by daily additions of household ammonia of from 3 to 4 drops per gallon to maintain this level constantly, until you see that this same addition of ammonia every day results in a zero reading the following day.  At that time, you'll know your tank is cycled.
       
      With the ammonia at 8.0 ppm, and with the level of debris as being able to be stirred up and making the water cloudy -- and exhibiting organic solids in the form of these "seeds/fuzz balls" -- this is waaay too much debris to have

      (Message over 64 KB, truncated)
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56361 From: David Davis Date: 1/4/2015
      Subject: Re: Questions on re-establishing tank
      Hi everyone!

      This is my first post to our group!

      I must say, sevenspringss1 has more tanks than I can even dream of.

      We live in a small apartment after downsizing from our home after the children graduated college and moved out.

      I am now 62 years old.

      For me, I started in the hobby some 25-30 years ago with a 29 gallon freshwater tank.

      I still have it with most of the fish being over 10 years in the tank since I purchased them.

      My Silver Dollars and Gouramis are very hardy! Same goes for my Red Tail Shark!

      My Plecostomus is huge!

      Last year my wife and I took another trip the the Western Caribbean.

      I love to snorkel and viewing  the most beautiful Coral and Fish, I came home and purchased a 46 gallon Salt Water tank.

      After many dollars spent, losing many fish by adding the wrong amount of supplements, I finally got it right.

      My Reef Tank is now a thriving tank with beautiful fish and coral!!

      I only lost 2 fish over the past year!!

      I am glad I joined your group. I was looking for people who share my passion and love of our hobby!

      My very best, Dave

      David Davis
      gooddad23@...


      -----Original Message-----
      From: sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
      To: AquaticLife <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Sat, Jan 3, 2015 3:39 pm
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Questions on re-establishing tank

       
      Hi Peg,
       
      Using 5 gallon buckets is the hard way to do water changes, unless you're really strong enough so that it doesn't bother you.  It's also very time consuming and some beginner hobbyists just give up on it at this point, feeling that it's too much work to have to do week after week.  Many of us, including myself, made water changes with buckets when we were just starting out, and when we were much younger < g >.  I'm glad for your sake that you got that AquaVac so that you can get away from carrying those buckets.  You're going to find though, that drawing water out of the tank with that water changer will use a lot of tap water.  One way to avoid that if possible is to start it running like that and then turn the faucet off and just let it syphon out the rest of the way, even though it will take longer.  By now, many of us use water pumps to remove the aquarium water and sometimes one to refill the tank, depending on the water change set-up we use.  On multiple tank set ups, one set of hoses and a pump is used to draw down the water while the previous tank is being filled, so that no time is wasted; it goes quite quickly.  All of the on-line aquarium supply houses carry a selection of water pumps of all sizes, or one can pick up a utility pump at Home Depot or Loews. 
       
      Trying to make this next long-story short, my biggest tanks now are a number of 125 gallon aquariums, but I had tanks up to 260 gallons when I needed them.  Besides these 125's I have several 100 gallon tanks, half a dozen 75 gallon tank, a dozen 50 gallon tanks, a few 55's, etc., etc.  I've cut way back from when I was commercially breeding fish and only have about 90 tanks right now (with a total volume of 3200 gallons).  Of course, I still breed fish right now as I thoroughly enjoy it.  At one time, a good number of years ago, I had a tropical fish store with a friend/partner of mine.  When I sold my half off to my partner, I went into importing fish, from Germany and Africa (Lake Malawi, Lake Victoria and Lake Tanganyika) and distributed them throughout the country (and as far as Australia).  It was never my actual profession as I was a printer, but I guess you could call it a second profession.  Probably spent as much time (or more) doing this as doing anything else.  When I retired from printing, I managed one of the largest Water Garden Suppliers dealing in ponds, their fish and their many plants, specializing in Water Lilies; each day was fun as it was totally enjoyable -- it certainly wasn't work.    Sorry, I don't have any pics in any folders, as no one ever taught me how to put photos up on line.  It's got to be really easy as everyone is doing it, but unless a person does this at least once -- by being walked through it -- it's all Greek, including all the internet terms.     
       
      I see you've found that the smaller the tank is, the harder it is to take care of.  Ammonia builds up a lot faster in a 5 gallon tank as compared to tank double that size.  As you don't yet know how much your fish will eat in 5 minutes, just start with a small amount -- more than just a certain number of flakes you can count on two hands.  If there's food left over after five minutes, cut back on the amount of food next time -- and the time after that -- until you get the idea of the proper amount.  A small aquarium fish's stomach might be the size of a garden pea; it doesn't  take much to satisfy the fish.  You'll never get to learn how much to feed if you keep giving more and waiting for the fish to eat that, and then give it more yet -- until the fish won't eat anymore.  You should never feed fish so much that they won't eat any more.  Fish don't know when to stop eating as they don't know that they'll be fed again the next day.  They'll keep eating as much as they can, while the opportunity presents itself.  It's not good for the fish to feed them this much.  It can even be a cause for a condition called "Bloat," which can ocassionally be fatal, depending on its actual cause.. 
       
      Yes, it can be a money pit if you let it.  Now that you have all the basic necessities, it shouldn't cost very much at all from here on in.  The major additions now would be more fish and maybe plants if you feel up to them.  None of this needs to (nor should) be done all at once anyway.  When the water level drops in the tank due to evaporation, none of the salt is lost.  Yes, you may replace water lost due to evaporation .  When adding new water to top the tank off because of this evaporation, you don't add any more salt.  The water parameters should tell you when to start doing PWC's, especially the nitrite which you don't want to allow to get too high, but even the ammonia should not be much above 4.0 ppm (3.0 ppm is better, although the cycle will take longer).  Too much of a drop in your KH will also tell you it's time to make a PWC.  You can start vacuuming after the second week -- and then, only do half the tank at a time, doing the other half the next week. 
       
      Ray  
       
        
      In a message dated 1/3/2015 4:46:09 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       
      Hey Ray!!
      My hubby picked-up the correct hose adapter and it's now on my utility sink waiting for me to
      take it for another spin. I put together a bin of things I may need when I go to use it so I don't have to 
      be running around looking for stuff while it's running or running around trying to find things so I can get started. I included a bowl and instant read digital thermometer so I could get as close as possible to the tank temp.  Carrying all those water buckets really took it out of me.   It wasn't so bad filling that little 5 gal bucket to take care of the 5 gal tank but the 55 wore me out. I can't even imagine how big your tanks are or how many you have. Not too long ago you mentioned breeding or something. Is that your profession?  How many tanks and how many did you own and do you own now?? I looked in the pics area thinking there might be some of all your tanks but there are so many folders that I never found it. 

      The 5 gallon hex was the original home for my African Dwarf Frogs. Even though they were teeny the tank was too small.  My first frog didn't make it and it was after that when I looked for someone to help guide me and found Suzy and Alyce. The next two frogs did better but Suzy really kept on me about moving them to a 10 gal aquarium. She knew that they'd just keep doing poorly in that 5 gal. 
      I had to wait until I had the funds to buy everything I needed and after I did they got moved but I still lost my boy frog.  My little girl Fannie is the only female I have now. She lives with the two boys in the 10 gal. Suzy and Alyce are now guiding me through the cycling of the tank.  With the 5 gal I had to do 50% water changes every other day just to fight the ammonia build up. 

      Losing the frogs in that tank and knowing how hard it was to keep things alive in it were my biggest reason to refrain from putting the Angels in there. They are way bigger than the frogs and I know how
      S
      You said you processed a refund but will you re-charge me when the pkg arrives??

      Sent from my iPhone't go hide. That same night I put food in the feeding ring and he ate with me standing there watching him. I hated the thought of netting him, moving him and starting all over with him traumatized again. He's just trusting me and I don't want to take the chance he'll never get past that. The other one isn't as timid or wasn't as traumatized, just this one guy. 

      Having these two alone in this tank has helped me learn about feeding them. You told me to only feed what they can eat in 5 minutes but that's hard to gauge when I have no experience or no reference point, nothing to look at to tell me ok they're good with 10 pieces of flake food but 15 is too many etc... I've been feeding them by putting 3-4 pieces into the feeding ring. After they get eaten I'll add a few more and I do this until they stop eating. After a few minutes I've been scooping out the leftovers with a brine shrimp net. 

      I haven't started vacuuming the gravel yet or doing any water changes. I wasn't quite sure when those activities should start.  After dinner I'm going to get three Cory cats to clean up the bottom. I'm not planning to add anything else until after the cycle.  When it is time to get more,  I want to keep only non-aggressive, community fish. I had luck with fish coming from Petsmart so I will prob stay with them. I do want to set up a 19 gal quarantine tanks but I've got to hold off on spending for awhile. By the time the tank gets cycled I should be able to set it up but even then it'll have to be cycled too won't it?  Fish keeping has been an expensive hobby. My husband told me last night how much I've spent 
      In it in the last month and a half and my jaw hit the floor. He feels two tanks in our living room are enough. The funds I've used to get them going took a bite from savings.  His exact words "these aquariums are a money pit."  For the next 6-8 weeks I'll concentrate on getting through the cycle and just learning to take care of and clean up after the 5 fish.  I hope 5 will be a good number to cycle with. I know adding afterwards will be slow but that's what I need to do to co-exist with husband and family. 

      I added the bottle of Safe Start at the beginning and I've been adding Prime every day. When should I begin vacuuming gravel and doing water changes? Should I plan to replace filters during or after the cycle?  

      Do I replace water in the tank as its evaporated or is this only done at the water change so the salt can be adjusted accordingly? I understand the water/salt ratio I just didn't know about replacing the evaporated water. 



      On Dec 31, 2014, at 10:44 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       
      No biggie on the hot water miscommunication.  As you saw, I included a big Grin at the need of my statement.  You just forgot to add that little detail (LOL).  That Aquavac is going to save you a humongous amount of work; those 5 gallon buckets weigh nearly 40 pounds when nearly full.  I'd call that heavy! 
       pm
      I see what you mean about the emergency tank being only a 5 gallon hex.  Not really meant for any fish long-term, although holding a fish or two in quarantine requires a full month to be assured they're disease-free.  BTW, I hope you're aware that such emergency tanks' main purpose -- besides being used as a hospital tank -- is to use them to isolate and observe new fish for a month before adding them to your main tank so that you don't spread any possible disease to your other fish.  As 5 gallons is small, you might watch for PetSmart's periodic $1 per gallon tank sales.  You could pick up a 10 gallon tank for 10 Bucks at those times. 
       
      Looks like the Whisper is entirely out of the question for this small tank -- and the dried out media no longer contains live nitrifiers.  As for holding the Angels in this hex tank, cycling the 55 would take up to 6 weeks so this would be long-term, but it would be much less stressful on the fish, not subjecting them to abnormal ammonia levels.  Even ammonium is toxic, albeit much less so than ammonia.  IF you were to cycle the tank with fish in it, it would be much more of a benefit in using more for this purpose than less, as the finished cycle would be able to convert a larger amount of ammonia.  BUT, as long as we now have this fish-less cycling option, we NEVER advocate cycling a tank with fish if it can be avoided.  It is easier, and surer, to do a fish-less cycle -- and no stress to the fish.
       
      You do understand it correctly.  After the tank is cycled with the two Angelfish, you'll need add any other fish slowly so that the filter can catch up with handling the increased load.  Yes also, on cycling the tank with fish being a big pain whthe sun don't shine -- and with inadequate results.  The benefits of a fish-less cycle are, that you're not subjecting the fish to any stress and you can have the cycles' end result being capable of converting any amount of ammonia that you anticipate your eventual bioload will be when finally adding your fish.  An example, you could cycle the tank so that the nitrifiers will convert 10 ppm daily and if your eventual load of fish only produce 3 ppm of ammonia daily the worst scenario is that a portion of the bacteria will die off until the remainder can subsist on only 3 ppm produced daily.  You can (and should) add all of your fish at the time your tank is fully cycled.  When cycling with fish, it's a constant catch-up game in needing to slowly increase the cycle.  
       
      Getting back to holding the Angels in the 5 gallon tank, I'm picturing their body size (without fins) as being about 2" in diameter -- correct me if I'm wrong.  Changing out 90% of their water each time that's needed doesn't need to be stressful.  If doing this, with being sure the Aquavac is surely attached to this tank, just run the water more slowly -- and add the needed amount of Prime just before you turn the faucets on.  You need to be sure you can control the temperature properly though.  If you can't, have the Aquavac fill the 5 gallon bucket that you'd keep along side the 5 gallon tank and then just pour it in slowly from there after making sure the temperature's correct.  No carrying the bucket any long distance.  Normally, I don't suggest doing 90% PWC's, as for one thing they're not generally needed. but being a strong proponent of the notion that you can never change too much water (the more fresh water the fish are living in, the better they'll thrive), I've been doing 90% PWC's on all the tanks in my hatchery for about 50 years and 40% to 50% PWC's for the preceding 17 years -- and I've had about 3200 gallons in my tanks for the last 25 years (I cut back < g >).  
       
      As for the maximum fish load for your tank, it's not just the number of your fish this depends on but it's also their size (their full eventual size when they reach maturity) -- as they need the space to eventually grow to their maximum size.  You can't go by just the size they are now as that won't allow them room to grow.  There's a rule of thumb estimate that works fairly well for fish up to 3" (when full grown) and which works better for slenderer fish (like Tetras as an example) rather than more heavily-bodied fish (like Platies as an example), and that's to consider 1" per gallon.  While you want a nicely filled tank of fish though, you should never max it out with fish but always leave some room for contingencies -- like power outages during which you have no surface circulation to exchanges gases (carbon dioxide and oxygen).  You could have five 1 1/2" Cardinal Tetras, five 2" Zebra Danios, four 2 1/2" Cory's, two 5" Angelfish,  five 1 3/4" Rasboras and three 2 3/4" Swordtails as one example.  This would total to about 50" of fish.  You need to learn how not to overfeed though.  As I stated a while back, feed just enough that they'll clean up in 5 minutes. 
       
      Ordinarily, salt is not needed in the freshwater aquarium, even though it does have purposes at specific times and is useful in helping treat some diseases.  Some hobbyists use a token amount of 1 TBL of salt per five gallons -- which is not necessary in the slightest.  When cycling a tank with fish, and with subjecting them to possible high levels of ammonia and/or nitrite, even a much smaller amount of salt -- like a pinch per gallon (or less) -- will prevent both ammonia poisoning and nitrite poisoning.  Even the very small amount of 1 TBL of salt per about 25 gallons I recommended can really be reduced to 1 TBL for the whole 55 gallons, although I wanted to ensure the fish would be "doubly safe" (LOL).  Still, 1 TBL of salt per 25 gallons (actually, per 27.5 gallons) is minute.  You only need to be concerned with salt if you're having fish in the 55.  The same goes for Prime, which would be safer to add every day rather than every other day.  Yes, you have that correct, in the amount of salt you need to add back after these PWC amounts. 
       
      If fish-less cycling, and maintaining a 3 ppm level of ammonia requiring the addition of 3 to 4 drops per gallon, you only need to add 3 (or 4) teaspoons of household ammonia to the tank (drops can vary in size).  A teaspoon holds 50 drops.  As it needs to be maintained there until it reaches a point where all 3 ppm will be consumed by the following day, if for instance the ammonia drops to 2 ppm on the following day, you just need to add back about 1 teaspoon of household ammonia to bring it back up to 3 ppm. 
       
      You're not a pain as long as you can put this stuff to good use.  I don't mind giving some advice if it helps you succeed.  That's part of why I moderate here, to help hobbyists like you become successful at keeping fish.  It sounds like it would pay to drive to Gerbers when you're ready for more fish.  You could try PetSmart or Petco if you saw something you really liked that wasn't found at Gerbers, but these fish should definitely be quarantined until you can be sure they're disease-free. 
       
      HAPPY NEW YEAR,gry
       
      Ray
       
              
       
      In a message dated 12/31/2014 4:38:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       
      I'm sorry I wasn't clear and didn't tell you that I did add hot tap water to the tank. 
      I think the Aquavac is going to be s big help. Even though I only use a 4 & 5 gal bucket to fill, they're really heavy. Even without the use of the suction caused by the water valve, it drained really fast. I got a 50 ft hose so I'll be able to hook up to our utility sink I the basement. When I have to add water for the frogs I pull samples and use the digital thermometer to try to get the water as close as possible to what it is in the tank.  
      My DH is on his way right now to the hardware store to get the right adapter so I'll be able to use next time I have a water change. 
      Keeping the Angels in the emergency tank wouldn't be so bad if it were bigger. It's only a 5 gal hex so it was really crowded in there with the two fish and the whisper like HOB filter I had to rig.  The filter took up a lot of room. I thought about moving the whisper over there but it's a tad deeper do it would crowd the fish even more. Since it's not long term I guess I could move them back and do the fishless cycle. 

      It seems like going through a cycle with two fish will be a bigger pain in the end because if I understand correctly, after the tank cycles I'll have to add new fish really slowly so the filters can catch up to the new amount of stuff in the water. If I add too quickly then I'll screw it all up and possibly have to go through another cycle??

      If that's true then it seems I should add some new fish now, maybe some corys(?) or I should get these fish out and just do what's needed for the fishless cycle.  Let me ask you this.... In the long run which choice will make the aquarium a more stable home. Are there add'l benefits to the fishless cycle?

      After cycling, what is the maximum number of fish that should be in the tank? I don't even know what the correct capacity is but I know I don't want to put too many fish in there and ever get back to the place it was. 

      If I move the fish back to the emergency tank should I try to use the filter media from the whisper? It's dried out now. Can the Bacteria live in a dry environment or would it have needed to remain moist? 

      I'm surprised at adding salt into the the freshwater tank. What is its purpose?  
      If the fish stay in will I do PWCs? Do if I did a 50% water change then I'd add back 1 TBS but if I did s 25% water change I'd add back 1/2 TBS salt? 

      I'm also surprised at adding household ammonia to the tank but I did but some yesterday. It's just so strong that I wouldn't have ever thought it would be safe in an aquarium. 

      I am using Prime but wondered if I should add daily or every other day? I'm sorry I'm such a PITA! I'm not trying to be. Just trying to understand and rebound from the bad info and guidance I had received.  I also need to try to find a good place to buy fish. The only places I know of are Petsmart, Petco, Jacks etc.... I tried looking for privately owned shops but I can't locate any in the Columbus area. I did find a place near Dayton (Gerbers I believe) that is HUGE. They sell both fresh and saltwater, breed diff species and have all kinds of cool stuff but Dayton is 1 1/2 hrs away. Kinda far to drive for fish but st least it's an idea. 

      Ray I really do appreciate your time and all your help! Thank you so much!!


      Sent from my iPhone

      On Dec 31, 2014, at 12:52 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       
      Okay, I'm glad to hear you topped off the tank with some hot tap water.  You need to get a Python though, to make life easier.  I do have to say though, that with your statement of, "I had to refill the tank with the garden hose and being in Ohio, that water was COLD !!," I saw no other choice in understanding this no other way than you having filled your tank with COLD water < g >.  You made no mention of filling it only 3/4 of the way with cold water.  Well at least only the few nitrifiers left on top of the gravel got the worst of it, and 54 o isn't terribly cold.
       
      OH, you got a Marina Aquavac for Christmas.  GREAT; I guess all you'll need now is to get the right adapters for it, to fit your faucets.  That's gonna save you a lot of work.  I don't know how you managed to carry those full buckets of water up until now.  Yes, I did read that you have two Angelfish in your emergency tank, but had forgotten about them needing to go back into the 55.  That's going to make things more difficult as you can't do the fishless-cycle thing with adding household ammonia.  With only these two fish in the tank though, you shouldn't be getting large amounts of ammonia and when it's finally cycled, it won't be cycled for a very large (like 3 pp) amount of ammonia capable of handling the waste of very many more fish.  It will be cycled to handle the waste level of only these two fish, meaning that you'll need to add the rest of your planned fish slowly, a few at a time, to give the cycle time to increase to the capacity to handle the waste from the additional fish. 
       
      I'm almost wondering if it would be feasible to keep the Angels in the emergency tank during the cycling of the (fishless) cycling of the 55, and making 90% PWC's on the emergency tank twice a week.  How large is this emergency tank, and what did you do with the Whisper?  Maybe you could run the partially-cycled Whisper on the emergency tank.  Alright, I didn't read that far ahead.  I see in your next paragraph that you saved the Whisper's media. 
       
      If you're keeping the two Angelfish in the 55, then Yes disregard my instructions on adding household ammonia -- as I mentioned in my first paragraph.  Ideally, a tank should be cycled to be able to convert about 3 ppm of ammonia produced daily by all your fishes (fishes in this case referring to more than one species of fish, as used in scientific literature).  This 3 ppm ammonia level that a tank would be cycled to handle is roughly what a properly stocked tank of fish would produce in one day.  By this, you can see that the ammonia produced only by the two Angelfish will not grow as large of colonies of nitrifying bacteria that will be needed to handle the waste from a full tank of fishes.  By slowly adding the workload on these bacteria with small additions of fishes, you'll gradually increase the cycle's capacity to handle the waste from more fish. 
       
      I see that any nitrate in the 55 right now is the result of the 5% old water allowed to remain.  Your numbers look good and you may also expect the ammonia to drop as a result of having only two fish to add more ammonia even as much of this in one day; at the very most, if it rises, it shouldn't be by very much.  With the nitrite level being at 0.50 ppm, whereas it was zero yesterday, this shows that these particular bacteria are converting the ammonia.  I'm assuming you're using Prime to prevent any ammonia from being toxic, especially at this higher pH).  If not, continue to use it now.  As the nitrite can only be expected to rise from here on until those bacteria start multiplying more, keep those two TBS (Tablespoons) of salt in the water at all times.
       
      I'd like to hope that the 5 ppm of nitrate is the result of bacteria converting some of this nitrite, but I really doubt that, as nice as that would be.  Noticing your your two hardness readings starting to drop.  Note that nothing in the tank can induce the GH to decrease -- it MUST remain at 8 dGH if that's what it was yesterday.  It is what it is and nothing will change that except water evaporation increasing its value.  We'll need to keep an eye on the KH and any further decrease of it, but with the pH being at 8, you can't use very much buffer to stabilize it at 6 as it may increase the pH when doing so.  We'll play it by ear though and digest these numbers daily.
       
      Ray
           
       
      In a message dated 12/31/2014 11:43:12 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       
      Nope! Do not assume..... I filled the first 75% of the tank with cold water from the hose. I then did the install of the Fluval.  After it was ready I finished filling the tank using hot tap water that I lugged with buckets. I started the Fluval then the heater then lastly the Penguin. The thermometer on the tank read 62 degrees when everything was started. Our cold tap water is 54 degrees.

       I don't have a Python but I do have a Marina Aquavac that I rec'd for Christmas. Up until the night I needed to use it I didn't know that none of the adapters would fit any of our faucets, not even the utility sink in the basement. I did find that one end of the adapter would fit the faucet outside. Being unable to physically lug all that water(I'm on disability),  I chose to use the faucet that was available for the largest portion of the fill. 

      The fourth paragraph of your last post states "as you no longer have fish in this tank" but as I told you in my last reply I do have two fish that I couldn't re-home and that needed to go back into that tank. They are two medium Angels. 

      Yes, the 1st ammonia test was done before I drained the tank. The numbers for today will be at the end of this post. If there was room for the whisper without it looking so overcrowded I would have left it, but with everything else, it just appeared too crowded. I still have it all, including the filter media in a bucket. I had to choose between the Penguin and the Whisper and the Penguin seemed like a better choice. 

      I tested our tap water for nitrates when you asked me to test it for ammonia. The nitrate test result was zero. 
      I'm assuming that your instructions for adding ammonia are based on your thought that there weren't any fish in the tank. Should I disregard?  Ideally what range of numbers are ideal for a community tank? 

      Since this isn't going to be a fishless cycle, should I add others to aid in getting thru the cycle? With the ammonia at 1 should I begin adding Prime? If so, would it be daily or every other day? Do I do PWC's with the numbers at these levels 

      Today's numbers are:
      High PH 8,  Ammonia 1, Nitrites .50, nitrates 5, GH 7, KH 5

      Peg


      On Dec 31, 2014, at 2:26 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@...> so wrote:"

       
      Peg,
       
      To begin with, even though you didn't have the Fluval together yet after you filled the tank, should I assume that you started the Penguin 350 filter?  One other thing, getting right to the gravel, the nitrifiers reside only on the top surface and down to a depth of less than 1/2".  They can't live in anaerobic conditions any deeper than this, so they're not found throughout the gravel.  When you removed the UGF, and when you did the thorough vacuuming of it, you most likely would have mixed in the gravel's top layer with the bulk of the remaining gravel.  It would have been difficult to keep the top layer of gravel intact, as not mixing it with the rest.  At this point, there would be no further concern for not destroying all of the bacteria residing on top of the gravel as it would have ceased to exist when buried under the rest of it.
       
      Now, getting back to the Penguin 350, after you refilled the tank if you started the filter right away you would have subjected the nitrifiers in this filter and on its bio-wheels to extreme shock, dependuing on how cold this new water was.  I's quite likely that you decimated a good percentage of them.  I won't ask you why you chose "to use the garden hose to refill the t, but I will ask why you couldn't have used an in-housÿfe faucet with which you could have mixed in part of this water from the hot water faucet.  I'm still unsure if you have a Python yet or not, but that would have been the thing to use in place of the garden hose if you have one.  At the very least, just a few buckets of warmer water mixed in as the garden hose was filling the tank with COLD water would have helped in preserving your nitrifiers.
       
      While Nitrosomonas (Nitrosomas) can tolerate a temperature down to 35 o - 36 o, and while Nitrobacters can tolerate a temperature down to 38 o - 39 o, to subject them to a sudden temperature of even 45 o, is harsh on them.  Dr. Tim's One & Only supplement is recommended to be kept in the refrigerator -- and the average refrigerator is recommended to be kept at 39 o F, but this product's contents aren't plunged instantly to 39 o when placed in the fridge.  You may have little nitrifying bacteria left to continue the cycle from where it was, and may need to start from scratch.  Actually, Nitrosomonos thrive at their best at a temperature of approximately 86 o, and Nitrobacters thrive best at a temperature of approximately 89 o -- some reports even say slightly higher for each.  While they still do well at the 78 o -- 80 o temperatures where we need them, this may illustrate why a sudden drop to such COLD temperatures would be devastating to them. 
       
      Well at least you did a great job in getting rid of all the debris in the gravel -- which was sorely need to do.  As you no longer have fish in this tank, cycling it should be fairly straight-forward.  So, going to your water testing in your first paragraph here, I'm assuming that these ammonia tests were done before you even removed the UGF plates -- since you give other figures towards the end of your message, of the parameters of the new water.  If the pH of your old water was still down near pH 6.8, this fully explains why you had zero Free-Ammonia.  At this pH, all of it will be in the form of Ammonium -- your Total Ammonia will be 100% Ammonium.  That the test came up as showing a deep purple, shows that it was off your API test chart scale having an upper limit of 8.0 ppm, as I stated that I suspected.  No, I've never ever seen a level that high.
       
      I thought you may have decided on removing the Whisper filter, just by your enthusiasm for doing this when you posted last.  I'm not sure if you thought about saving whatever bacteria that had developed in it up to this point, which you could have now used to seed the Penguin 350.     
       
      Getting to your test results of the refilled tank, as your regular pH test kit only goes up to pH 7.6, and since you high pH test result is so much higher, your regular test result is useless as we know the pH is much higher than pH 7.6.  There's really no reason to even consider it.  We know your tank's pH is 8.0.  With your tap water testing at zero ammonia, and with your tank water now testing at 1.0 ppm -- AFTER making a 95% PWC -- this begins to show just how much ammonia had accumulated in your old water, if the 5% residual old water shows a level of 1.0 ppm after being diluted by a rate of 19 to 1 by the fresh water.  It's a bit surprising you have any nitrate, but this is obviously due to the small amount of old water left in the tank (unless your tap water contains some nitrate).  With zero nitrite again, this is to be expected having mostly all new water, although there's probably a trace of it left from the old water that's too small to test for.  Your two hardness (GH & KH) levels are really quite good.  Some would say they're just about ideal for average community tank fish.  Your KH isn't too low that it doesn't have at least moderate buffering capacity -- it does.
       
      So now, with 1.0 ppm of ammonia right now, you'll need to increase it to 3.0 ppm by adding 3 or 4 drops of clear household ammonia per gallon (not sudsy, as I've said before).  Monitor the ammonia level daily and add more ammonia as need to keep the level up at 3.0 ppm each day.  At first, you won't need to add much, if any, but as time goes by you'll need to add a bit more each day, until it reaches a point where you'll need to add the full 3 - 4 drops daily; the test will show zero ppm on these following days, showing that the bacteria are in sufficient amounts that they can handle this amount of ammonia given off from fish if you were to introduce them.  As your tank would be fully cycled at this point, this IS the time to add your fish and to stop adding any more ammonia.  You'll first need to do enough of a water change to remove the build up of nitrate, which should be brought down to at least 40 ppm, or preferably lower.  Right now, this is just the start and we'll guide you as the cycle progresses. 
       
      Ray 
       
       
       
      In a message dated 12/30/2014 11:10:10 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       
      Hey there!! 
      I finally rec'd the Seachem Ammonia Testing Kit. I tested the Aquarium water and also my tap. Both free and total ammonia tests show 0 ammonia.  The Aquarium tested with free ammonia 0, total ammonia was deep purple, darker than the darkest blue on the color strip. Have you ever seen anything like that??

      I guess the aquarium count is a moot point now because last night I started removing the UGF and vacuuming all the substrate. By the time I had done a thorough cleaning about 95% of the water was gone. 
      I had to refill the tank with the garden hose and being in Ohio, that water was COLD!! I still had to put the Fluval together so I let it sit for awhile. Was hoping it would warm up a little bit at least. My tank is a Marineland 55 gal with the middle brace. The lid has those cut-out spaces on each side for filters etc....the right side is filled with the Penguin 350 and then on the left I had that whisper that would share space with Fluval. It was crowded and looked it so I pulled the a Whisper out and put the Fluval in the space. Taking the Whisper down gave me opportunity to space the Fluval tubes apart and it all looks nice and neat. 

      Although I vacuumed the gravel really well I didn't add water and rinse it. I was trying not to destroy ALL the bacteria. I also left all 4 filters and both bio-wheels in the Penguin without rinsing them. After I had filled the tank with about 6-8 inches of water I stirred the gravel up to see if there were still going to be a lot of debris or any fuzzles floating around and there weren't. It looked good. I was glad because I really didn't want ti rinse all the gravel if I didn't have to. 

      The only fish I had left were the two that were in the emergency tank I set up. I didn't have filter media to maintain that tank so I knew I needed to move them.  Today the tank was up to temp so I treated with Prime them added a  full bottle of Safe Start (I didn't know until tonight that Amazon carried Dr.Tims or I would've ordered - going to order this week to keep on on hand). Two hours later I moved the Angels over to the 55 gal. So far, so good. 

      Early this evening I tested the tank water. This is what I came up with:  PH 7.6,  HPH 8, Ammonia 1, Nitrites 0, Nitrates 5, GH 8, KH 6.  Do you think maybe the stuff left in the gravel along with what was in the Penguins filter media are enough to maybe take this forward in the cycle? 

      Peg
      Soon Opening: Hoopin' It Up Designs
                                Custom Embroidery & Embellishments

      On Dec 29, 2014, at 1:10 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.comwrote:

       


      (Message over 64 KB, truncated)
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56362 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/4/2015
      Subject: Re: Questions on re-establishing tank
      AOL Email
      Hello Dave and welcome to the Group.  Glad to hear your marine tank is doing so well.  If you have a common Pleco catfish, and you've had it as part of your freshwater tank for 10 years or more, I'd bet it's close to 18" (or bigger) if you do regular PWC's (partial water changes).  This fish could probably use a tank double this (29 gallon) size.  Salt water enthusiasts aren't as numerous on here, but we do have some members participating in this side of the hobby; I'm not one of them though.  Still, we have expert marine hobbyists here who'll be able to help you with most any problem that may come up in that field.  Hope you enjoy your stay.
       
      Regards,
       
      Ray
        
       
      In a message dated 1/4/2015 11:22:05 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hi everyone!


      This is my first post to our group!

      I must say, sevenspringss1 has more tanks than I can even dream of.

      We live in a small apartment after downsizing from our home after the children graduated college and moved out.

      I am now 62 years old.

      For me, I started in the hobby some 25-30 years ago with a 29 gallon freshwater tank.

      I still have it with most of the fish being over 10 years in the tank since I purchased them.

      My Silver Dollars and Gouramis are very hardy! Same goes for my Red Tail Shark!

      My Plecostomus is huge!

      Last year my wife and I took another trip the the Western Caribbean.

      I love to snorkel and viewing  the most beautiful Coral and Fish, I came home and purchased a 46 gallon Salt Water tank.

      After many dollars spent, losing many fish by adding the wrong amount of supplements, I finally got it right.

      My Reef Tank is now a thriving tank with beautiful fish and coral!!

      I only lost 2 fish over the past year!!

      I am glad I joined your group. I was looking for people who share my passion and love of our hobby!

      My very best, Dave

      David Davis
      gooddad23@...


      -----Original Message-----
      From: sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
      To: AquaticLife <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Sat, Jan 3, 2015 3:39 pm
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Questions on re-establishing tank

       
      Hi Peg,
       
      Using 5 gallon buckets is the hard way to do water changes, unless you're really strong enough so that it doesn't bother you.  It's also very time consuming and some beginner hobbyists just give up on it at this point, feeling that it's too much work to have to do week after week.  Many of us, including myself, made water changes with buckets when we were just starting out, and when we were much younger < g >.  I'm glad for your sake that you got that AquaVac so that you can get away from carrying those buckets.  You're going to find though, that drawing water out of the tank with that water changer will use a lot of tap water.  One way to avoid that if possible is to start it running like that and then turn the faucet off and just let it syphon out the rest of the way, even though it will take longer.  By now, many of us use water pumps to remove the aquarium water and sometimes one to refill the tank, depending on the water change set-up we use.  On multiple tank set ups, one set of hoses and a pump is used to draw down the water while the previous tank is being filled, so that no time is wasted; it goes quite quickly.  All of the on-line aquarium supply houses carry a selection of water pumps of all sizes, or one can pick up a utility pump at Home Depot or Loews. 
       
      Trying to make this next long-story short, my biggest tanks now are a number of 125 gallon aquariums, but I had tanks up to 260 gallons when I needed them.  Besides these 125's I have several 100 gallon tanks, half a dozen 75 gallon tank, a dozen 50 gallon tanks, a few 55's, etc., etc.  I've cut way back from when I was commercially breeding fish and only have about 90 tanks right now (with a total volume of 3200 gallons).  Of course, I still breed fish right now as I thoroughly enjoy it.  At one time, a good number of years ago, I had a tropical fish store with a friend/partner of mine.  When I sold my half off to my partner, I went into importing fish, from Germany and Africa (Lake Malawi, Lake Victoria and Lake Tanganyika) and distributed them throughout the country (and as far as Australia).  It was never my actual profession as I was a printer, but I guess you could call it a second profession.  Probably spent as much time (or more) doing this as doing anything else.  When I retired from printing, I managed one of the largest Water Garden Suppliers dealing in ponds, their fish and their many plants, specializing in Water Lilies; each day was fun as it was totally enjoyable -- it certainly wasn't work.    Sorry, I don't have any pics in any folders, as no one ever taught me how to put photos up on line.  It's got to be really easy as everyone is doing it, but unless a person does this at least once -- by being walked through it -- it's all Greek, including all the internet terms.     
       
      I see you've found that the smaller the tank is, the harder it is to take care of.  Ammonia builds up a lot faster in a 5 gallon tank as compared to tank double that size.  As you don't yet know how much your fish will eat in 5 minutes, just start with a small amount -- more than just a certain number of flakes you can count on two hands.  If there's food left over after five minutes, cut back on the amount of food next time -- and the time after that -- until you get the idea of the proper amount.  A small aquarium fish's stomach might be the size of a garden pea; it doesn't  take much to satisfy the fish.  You'll never get to learn how much to feed if you keep giving more and waiting for the fish to eat that, and then give it more yet -- until the fish won't eat anymore.  You should never feed fish so much that they won't eat any more.  Fish don't know when to stop eating as they don't know that they'll be fed again the next day.  They'll keep eating as much as they can, while the opportunity presents itself.  It's not good for the fish to feed them this much.  It can even be a cause for a condition called "Bloat," which can ocassionally be fatal, depending on its actual cause.. 
       
      Yes, it can be a money pit if you let it.  Now that you have all the basic necessities, it shouldn't cost very much at all from here on in.  The major additions now would be more fish and maybe plants if you feel up to them.  None of this needs to (nor should) be done all at once anyway.  When the water level drops in the tank due to evaporation, none of the salt is lost.  Yes, you may replace water lost due to evaporation .  When adding new water to top the tank off because of this evaporation, you don't add any more salt.  The water parameters should tell you when to start doing PWC's, especially the nitrite which you don't want to allow to get too high, but even the ammonia should not be much above 4.0 ppm (3.0 ppm is better, although the cycle will take longer).  Too much of a drop in your KH will also tell you it's time to make a PWC.  You can start vacuuming after the second week -- and then, only do half the tank at a time, doing the other half the next week. 
       
      Ray  
       
        
      In a message dated 1/3/2015 4:46:09 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       
      Hey Ray!!
      My hubby picked-up the correct hose adapter and it's now on my utility sink waiting for me to
      take it for another spin. I put together a bin of things I may need when I go to use it so I don't have to 
      be running around looking for stuff while it's running or running around trying to find things so I can get started. I included a bowl and instant read digital thermometer so I could get as close as possible to the tank temp.  Carrying all those water buckets really took it out of me.   It wasn't so bad filling that little 5 gal bucket to take care of the 5 gal tank but the 55 wore me out. I can't even imagine how big your tanks are or how many you have. Not too long ago you mentioned breeding or something. Is that your profession?  How many tanks and how many did you own and do you own now?? I looked in the pics area thinking there might be some of all your tanks but there are so many folders that I never found it. 

      The 5 gallon hex was the original home for my African Dwarf Frogs. Even though they were teeny the tank was too small.  My first frog didn't make it and it was after that when I looked for someone to help guide me and found Suzy and Alyce. The next two frogs did better but Suzy really kept on me about moving them to a 10 gal aquarium. She knew that they'd just keep doing poorly in that 5 gal. 
      I had to wait until I had the funds to buy everything I needed and after I did they got moved but I still lost my boy frog.  My little girl Fannie is the only female I have now. She lives with the two boys in the 10 gal. Suzy and Alyce are now guiding me through the cycling of the tank.  With the 5 gal I had to do 50% water changes every other day just to fight the ammonia build up. 

      Losing the frogs in that tank and knowing how hard it was to keep things alive in it were my biggest reason to refrain from putting the Angels in there. They are way bigger than the frogs and I know how
      S
      You said you processed a refund but will you re-charge me when the pkg arrives??

      Sent from my iPhone't go hide. That same night I put food in the feeding ring and he ate with me standing there watching him. I hated the thought of netting him, moving him and starting all over with him traumatized again. He's just trusting me and I don't want to take the chance he'll never get past that. The other one isn't as timid or wasn't as traumatized, just this one guy. 

      Having these two alone in this tank has helped me learn about feeding them. You told me to only feed what they can eat in 5 minutes but that's hard to gauge when I have no experience or no reference point, nothing to look at to tell me ok they're good with 10 pieces of flake food but 15 is too many etc... I've been feeding them by putting 3-4 pieces into the feeding ring. After they get eaten I'll add a few more and I do this until they stop eating. After a few minutes I've been scooping out the leftovers with a brine shrimp net. 

      I haven't started vacuuming the gravel yet or doing any water changes. I wasn't quite sure when those activities should start.  After dinner I'm going to get three Cory cats to clean up the bottom. I'm not planning to add anything else until after the cycle.  When it is time to get more,  I want to keep only non-aggressive, community fish. I had luck with fish coming from Petsmart so I will prob stay with them. I do want to set up a 19 gal quarantine tanks but I've got to hold off on spending for awhile. By the time the tank gets cycled I should be able to set it up but even then it'll have to be cycled too won't it?  Fish keeping has been an expensive hobby. My husband told me last night how much I've spent 
      In it in the last month and a half and my jaw hit the floor. He feels two tanks in our living room are enough. The funds I've used to get them going took a bite from savings.  His exact words "these aquariums are a money pit."  For the next 6-8 weeks I'll concentrate on getting through the cycle and just learning to take care of and clean up after the 5 fish.  I hope 5 will be a good number to cycle with. I know adding afterwards will be slow but that's what I need to do to co-exist with husband and family. 

      I added the bottle of Safe Start at the beginning and I've been adding Prime every day. When should I begin vacuuming gravel and doing water changes? Should I plan to replace filters during or after the cycle?  

      Do I replace water in the tank as its evaporated or is this only done at the water change so the salt can be adjusted accordingly? I understand the water/salt ratio I just didn't know about replacing the evaporated water. 



      On Dec 31, 2014, at 10:44 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       
      No biggie on the hot water miscommunication.  As you saw, I included a big Grin at the need of my statement.  You just forgot to add that little detail (LOL).  That Aquavac is going to save you a humongous amount of work; those 5 gallon buckets weigh nearly 40 pounds when nearly full.  I'd call that heavy! 
       pm
      I see what you mean about the emergency tank being only a 5 gallon hex.  Not really meant for any fish long-term, although holding a fish or two in quarantine requires a full month to be assured they're disease-free.  BTW, I hope you're aware that such emergency tanks' main purpose -- besides being used as a hospital tank -- is to use them to isolate and observe new fish for a month before adding them to your main tank so that you don't spread any possible disease to your other fish.  As 5 gallons is small, you might watch for PetSmart's periodic $1 per gallon tank sales.  You could pick up a 10 gallon tank for 10 Bucks at those times. 
       
      Looks like the Whisper is entirely out of the question for this small tank -- and the dried out media no longer contains live nitrifiers.  As for holding the Angels in this hex tank, cycling the 55 would take up to 6 weeks so this would be long-term, but it would be much less stressful on the fish, not subjecting them to abnormal ammonia levels.  Even ammonium is toxic, albeit much less so than ammonia.  IF you were to cycle the tank with fish in it, it would be much more of a benefit in using more for this purpose than less, as the finished cycle would be able to convert a larger amount of ammonia.  BUT, as long as we now have this fish-less cycling option, we NEVER advocate cycling a tank with fish if it can be avoided.  It is easier, and surer, to do a fish-less cycle -- and no stress to the fish.
       
      You do understand it correctly.  After the tank is cycled with the two Angelfish, you'll need add any other fish slowly so that the filter can catch up with handling the increased load.  Yes also, on cycling the tank with fish being a big pain whthe sun don't shine -- and with inadequate results.  The benefits of a fish-less cycle are, that you're not subjecting the fish to any stress and you can have the cycles' end result being capable of converting any amount of ammonia that you anticipate your eventual bioload will be when finally adding your fish.  An example, you could cycle the tank so that the nitrifiers will convert 10 ppm daily and if your eventual load of fish only produce 3 ppm of ammonia daily the worst scenario is that a portion of the bacteria will die off until the remainder can subsist on only 3 ppm produced daily.  You can (and should) add all of your fish at the time your tank is fully cycled.  When cycling with fish, it's a constant catch-up game in needing to slowly increase the cycle.  
       
      Getting back to holding the Angels in the 5 gallon tank, I'm picturing their body size (without fins) as being about 2" in diameter -- correct me if I'm wrong.  Changing out 90% of their water each time that's needed doesn't need to be stressful.  If doing this, with being sure the Aquavac is surely attached to this tank, just run the water more slowly -- and add the needed amount of Prime just before you turn the faucets on.  You need to be sure you can control the temperature properly though.  If you can't, have the Aquavac fill the 5 gallon bucket that you'd keep along side the 5 gallon tank and then just pour it in slowly from there after making sure the temperature's correct.  No carrying the bucket any long distance.  Normally, I don't suggest doing 90% PWC's, as for one thing they're not generally needed. but being a strong proponent of the notion that you can never change too much water (the more fresh water the fish are living in, the better they'll thrive), I've been doing 90% PWC's on all the tanks in my hatchery for about 50 years and 40% to 50% PWC's for the preceding 17 years -- and I've had about 3200 gallons in my tanks for the last 25 years (I cut back < g >).  
       
      As for the maximum fish load for your tank, it's not just the number of your fish this depends on but it's also their size (their full eventual size when they reach maturity) -- as they need the space to eventually grow to their maximum size.  You can't go by just the size they are now as that won't allow them room to grow.  There's a rule of thumb estimate that works fairly well for fish up to 3" (when full grown) and which works better for slenderer fish (like Tetras as an example) rather than more heavily-bodied fish (like Platies as an example), and that's to consider 1" per gallon.  While you want a nicely filled tank of fish though, you should never max it out with fish but always leave some room for contingencies -- like power outages during which you have no surface circulation to exchanges gases (carbon dioxide and oxygen).  You could have five 1 1/2" Cardinal Tetras, five 2" Zebra Danios, four 2 1/2" Cory's, two 5" Angelfish,  five 1 3/4" Rasboras and three 2 3/4" Swordtails as one example.  This would total to about 50" of fish.  You need to learn how not to overfeed though.  As I stated a while back, feed just enough that they'll clean up in 5 minutes. 
       
      Ordinarily, salt is not needed in the freshwater aquarium, even though it does have purposes at specific times and is useful in helping treat some diseases.  Some hobbyists use a token amount of 1 TBL of salt per five gallons -- which is not necessary in the slightest.  When cycling a tank with fish, and with subjecting them to possible high levels of ammonia and/or nitrite, even a much smaller amount of salt -- like a pinch per gallon (or less) -- will prevent both ammonia poisoning and nitrite poisoning.  Even the very small amount of 1 TBL of salt per about 25 gallons I recommended can really be reduced to 1 TBL for the whole 55 gallons, although I wanted to ensure the fish would be "doubly safe" (LOL).  Still, 1 TBL of salt per 25 gallons (actually, per 27.5 gallons) is minute.  You only need to be concerned with salt if you're having fish in the 55.  The same goes for Prime, which would be safer to add every day rather than every other day.  Yes, you have that correct, in the amount of salt you need to add back after these PWC amounts. 
       
      If fish-less cycling, and maintaining a 3 ppm level of ammonia requiring the addition of 3 to 4 drops per gallon, you only need to add 3 (or 4) teaspoons of household ammonia to the tank (drops can vary in size).  A teaspoon holds 50 drops.  As it needs to be maintained there until it reaches a point where all 3 ppm will be consumed by the following day, if for instance the ammonia drops to 2 ppm on the following day, you just need to add back about 1 teaspoon of household ammonia to bring it back up to 3 ppm. 
       
      You're not a pain as long as you can put this stuff to good use.  I don't mind giving some advice if it helps you succeed.  That's part of why I moderate here, to help hobbyists like you become successful at keeping fish.  It sounds like it would pay to drive to Gerbers when you're ready for more fish.  You could try PetSmart or Petco if you saw something you really liked that wasn't found at Gerbers, but these fish should definitely be quarantined until you can be sure they're disease-free. 
       
      HAPPY NEW YEAR,gry
       
      Ray
       
              
       
      In a message dated 12/31/2014 4:38:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       
      I'm sorry I wasn't clear and didn't tell you that I did add hot tap water to the tank. 
      I think the Aquavac is going to be s big help. Even though I only use a 4 & 5 gal bucket to fill, they're really heavy. Even without the use of the suction caused by the water valve, it drained really fast. I got a 50 ft hose so I'll be able to hook up to our utility sink I the basement. When I have to add water for the frogs I pull samples and use the digital thermometer to try to get the water as close as possible to what it is in the tank.  
      My DH is on his way right now to the hardware store to get the right adapter so I'll be able to use next time I have a water change. 
      Keeping the Angels in the emergency tank wouldn't be so bad if it were bigger. It's only a 5 gal hex so it was really crowded in there with the two fish and the whisper like HOB filter I had to rig.  The filter took up a lot of room. I thought about moving the whisper over there but it's a tad deeper do it would crowd the fish even more. Since it's not long term I guess I could move them back and do the fishless cycle. 

      It seems like going through a cycle with two fish will be a bigger pain in the end because if I understand correctly, after the tank cycles I'll have to add new fish really slowly so the filters can catch up to the new amount of stuff in the water. If I add too quickly then I'll screw it all up and possibly have to go through another cycle??

      If that's true then it seems I should add some new fish now, maybe some corys(?) or I should get these fish out and just do what's needed for the fishless cycle.  Let me ask you this.... In the long run which choice will make the aquarium a more stable home. Are there add'l benefits to the fishless cycle?

      After cycling, what is the maximum number of fish that should be in the tank? I don't even know what the correct capacity is but I know I don't want to put too many fish in there and ever get back to the place it was. 

      If I move the fish back to the emergency tank should I try to use the filter media from the whisper? It's dried out now. Can the Bacteria live in a dry environment or would it have needed to remain moist? 

      I'm surprised at adding salt into the the freshwater tank. What is its purpose?  
      If the fish stay in will I do PWCs? Do if I did a 50% water change then I'd add back 1 TBS but if I did s 25% water change I'd add back 1/2 TBS salt? 

      I'm also surprised at adding household ammonia to the tank but I did but some yesterday. It's just so strong that I wouldn't have ever thought it would be safe in an aquarium. 

      I am using Prime but wondered if I should add daily or every other day? I'm sorry I'm such a PITA! I'm not trying to be. Just trying to understand and rebound from the bad info and guidance I had received.  I also need to try to find a good place to buy fish. The only places I know of are Petsmart, Petco, Jacks etc.... I tried looking for privately owned shops but I can't locate any in the Columbus area. I did find a place near Dayton (Gerbers I believe) that is HUGE. They sell both fresh and saltwater, breed diff species and have all kinds of cool stuff but Dayton is 1 1/2 hrs away. Kinda far to drive for fish but st least it's an idea. 

      Ray I really do appreciate your time and all your help! Thank you so much!!


      Sent from my iPhone

      On Dec 31, 2014, at 12:52 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       
      Okay, I'm glad to hear you topped off the tank with some hot tap water.  You need to get a Python though, to make life easier.  I do have to say though, that with your statement of, "I had to refill the tank with the garden hose and being in Ohio, that water was COLD !!," I saw no other choice in understanding this no other way than you having filled your tank with COLD water < g >.  You made no mention of filling it only 3/4 of the way with cold water.  Well at least only the few nitrifiers left on top of the gravel got the worst of it, and 54 o isn't terribly cold.
       
      OH, you got a Marina Aquavac for Christmas.  GREAT; I guess all you'll need now is to get the right adapters for it, to fit your faucets.  That's gonna save you a lot of work.  I don't know how you managed to carry those full buckets of water up until now.  Yes, I did read that you have two Angelfish in your emergency tank, but had forgotten about them needing to go back into the 55.  That's going to make things more difficult as you can't do the fishless-cycle thing with adding household ammonia.  With only these two fish in the tank though, you shouldn't be getting large amounts of ammonia and when it's finally cycled, it won't be cycled for a very large (like 3 pp) amount of ammonia capable of handling the waste of very many more fish.  It will be cycled to handle the waste level of only these two fish, meaning that you'll need to add the rest of your planned fish slowly, a few at a time, to give the cycle time to increase to the capacity to handle the waste from the additional fish. 
       
      I'm almost wondering if it would be feasible to keep the Angels in the emergency tank during the cycling of the (fishless) cycling of the 55, and making 90% PWC's on the emergency tank twice a week.  How large is this emergency tank, and what did you do with the Whisper?  Maybe you could run the partially-cycled Whisper on the emergency tank.  Alright, I didn't read that far ahead.  I see in your next paragraph that you saved the Whisper's media. 
       
      If you're keeping the two Angelfish in the 55, then Yes disregard my instructions on adding household ammonia -- as I mentioned in my first paragraph.  Ideally, a tank should be cycled to be able to convert about 3 ppm of ammonia produced daily by all your fishes (fishes in this case referring to more than one species of fish, as used in scientific literature).  This 3 ppm ammonia level that a tank would be cycled to handle is roughly what a properly stocked tank of fish would produce in one day.  By this, you can see that the ammonia produced only by the two Angelfish will not grow as large of colonies of nitrifying bacteria that will be needed to handle the waste from a full tank of fishes.  By slowly adding the workload on these bacteria with small additions of fishes, you'll gradually increase the cycle's capacity to handle the waste from more fish. 
       
      I see that any nitrate in the 55 right now is the result of the 5% old water allowed to remain.  Your numbers look good and you may also expect the ammonia to drop as a result of having only two fish to add more ammonia even as much of this in one day; at the very most, if it rises, it shouldn't be by very much.  With the nitrite level being at 0.50 ppm, whereas it was zero yesterday, this shows that these particular bacteria are converting the ammonia.  I'm assuming you're using Prime to prevent any ammonia from being toxic, especially at this higher pH).  If not, continue to use it now.  As the nitrite can only be expected to rise from here on until those bacteria start multiplying more, keep those two TBS (Tablespoons) of salt in the water at all times.
       
      I'd like to hope that the 5 ppm of nitrate is the result of bacteria converting some of this nitrite, but I really doubt that, as nice as that would be.  Noticing your your two hardness readings starting to drop.  Note that nothing in the tank can induce the GH to decrease -- it MUST remain at 8 dGH if that's what it was yesterday.  It is what it is and nothing will change that except water evaporation increasing its value.  We'll need to keep an eye on the KH and any further decrease of it, but with the pH being at 8, you can't use very much buffer to stabilize it at 6 as it may increase the pH when doing so.  We'll play it by ear though and digest these numbers daily.
       
      Ray
           
       
      In a message dated 12/31/2014 11:43:12 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       
      Nope! Do not assume..... I filled the first 75% of the tank with cold water from the hose. I then did the install of the Fluval.  After it was ready I finished filling the tank using hot tap water that I lugged with buckets. I started the Fluval then the heater then lastly the Penguin. The thermometer on the tank read 62 degrees when everything was started. Our cold tap water is 54 degrees.

       I don't have a Python but I do have a Marina Aquavac that I rec'd for Christmas. Up until the night I needed to use it I didn't know that none of the adapters would fit any of our faucets, not even the utility sink in the basement. I did find that one end of the adapter would fit the faucet outside. Being unable to physically lug all that water(I'm on disability),  I chose to use the faucet that was available for the largest portion of the fill. 

      The fourth paragraph of your last post states "as you no longer have fish in this tank" but as I told you in my last reply I do have two fish that I couldn't re-home and that needed to go back into that tank. They are two medium Angels. 

      Yes, the 1st ammonia test was done before I drained the tank. The numbers for today will be at the end of this post. If there was room for the whisper without it looking so overcrowded I would have left it, but with everything else, it just appeared too crowded. I still have it all, including the filter media in a bucket. I had to choose between the Penguin and the Whisper and the Penguin seemed like a better choice. 

      I tested our tap water for nitrates when you asked me to test it for ammonia. The nitrate test result was zero. 
      I'm assuming that your instructions for adding ammonia are based on your thought that there weren't any fish in the tank. Should I disregard?  Ideally what range of numbers are ideal for a community tank? 

      Since this isn't going to be a fishless cycle, should I add others to aid in getting thru the cycle? With the ammonia at 1 should I begin adding Prime? If so, would it be daily or every other day? Do I do PWC's with the numbers at these levels 

      Today's numbers are:
      High PH 8,  Ammonia 1, Nitrites .50, nitrates 5, GH 7, KH 5

      Peg


      On Dec 31, 2014, at 2:26 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@...> so wrote:"

       
      Peg,
       
      To begin with, even though you didn't have the Fluval together yet after you filled the tank, should I assume that you started the Penguin 350 filter?  One other thing, getting right to the gravel, the nitrifiers reside only on the top surface and down to a depth of less than 1/2".  They can't live in anaerobic conditions any deeper than this, so they're not found throughout the gravel.  When you removed the UGF, and when you did the thorough vacuuming of it, you most likely would have mixed in the gravel's top layer with the bulk of the remaining gravel.  It would have been difficult to keep the top layer of gravel intact, as not mixing it with the rest.  At this point, there would be no further concern for not destroying all of the bacteria residing on top of the gravel as it would have ceased to exist when buried under the rest of it.
       
      Now, getting back to the Penguin 350, after you refilled the tank if you started the filter right away you would have subjected the nitrifiers in this filter and on its bio-wheels to extreme shock, dependuing on how cold this new water was.  I's quite likely that you decimated a good percentage of them.  I won't ask you why you chose "to use the garden hose to refill the t, but I will ask why you couldn't have used an in-housÿfe faucet with which you could have mixed in part of this water from the hot water faucet.  I'm still unsure if you have a Python yet or not, but that would have been the thing to use in place of the garden hose if you have one.  At the very least, just a few buckets of warmer water mixed in as the garden hose was filling the tank with COLD water would have helped in preserving your nitrifiers.
       
      While Nitrosomonas (Nitrosomas) can tolerate a temperature down to 35 o - 36 o, and while Nitrobacters can tolerate a temperature down to 38 o - 39 o, to subject them to a sudden temperature of even 45 o, is harsh on them.  Dr. Tim's One & Only supplement is recommended to be kept in the refrigerator -- and the average refrigerator is recommended to be kept at 39 o F, but this product's contents aren't plunged instantly to 39 o when placed in the fridge.  You may have little nitrifying bacteria left to continue the cycle from where it was, and may need to start from scratch.  Actually, Nitrosomonos thrive at their best at a temperature of approximately 86 o, and Nitrobacters thrive best at a temperature of approximately 89 o -- some reports even say slightly higher for each.  While they still do well at the 78 o -- 80 o temperatures where we need them, this may illustrate why a sudden drop to such COLD temperatures would be devastating to them. 
       
      Well at least you did a great job in getting rid of all the debris in the gravel -- which was sorely need to do.  As you no longer have fish in this tank, cycling it should be fairly straight-forward.  So, going to your water testing in your first paragraph here, I'm assuming that these ammonia tests were done before you even removed the UGF plates -- since you give other figures towards the end of your message, of the parameters of the new water.  If the pH of your old water was still down near pH 6.8, this fully explains why you had zero Free-Ammonia.  At this pH, all of it will be in the form of Ammonium -- your Total Ammonia will be 100% Ammonium.  That the test came up as showing a deep purple, shows that it was off your API test chart scale having an upper limit of 8.0 ppm, as I stated that I suspected.  No, I've never ever seen a level that high.
       
      I thought you may have decided on removing the Whisper filter, just by your enthusiasm for doing this when you posted last.  I'm not sure if you thought about saving whatever bacteria that had developed in it up to this point, which you could have now used to seed the Penguin 350.     
       
      Getting to your test results of the refilled tank, as your regular pH test kit only goes up to pH 7.6, and since you high pH test result is so much higher, your regular test result is useless as we know the pH is much higher than pH 7.6.  There's really no reason to even consider it.  We know your tank's pH is 8.0.  With your tap water testing at zero ammonia, and with your tank water now testing at 1.0 ppm -- AFTER making a 95% PWC -- this begins to show just how much ammonia had accumulated in your old water, if the 5% residual old water shows a level of 1.0 ppm after being diluted by a rate of 19 to 1 by the fresh water.  It's a bit surprising you have any nitrate, but this is obviously due to the small amount of old water left in the tank (unless your tap water contains some nitrate).  With zero nitrite again, this is to be expected having mostly all new water, although there's probably a trace of it left from the old water that's too small to test for.  Your two hardness (GH & KH) levels are really quite good.  Some would say they're just about ideal for average

      (Message over 64 KB, truncated)
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56363 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 1/4/2015
      Subject: Re: Questions on re-establishing tank
      Funny you should mention the use of a lot of tap water.... Our water bill was doubled this cycle. My
      Husband wasn't thrilled but luckily water is the cheapest commodity. I will probably use the Aquavac for water changes but like you mentioned I'll get the siphon started then turn the tap off.  I used it to drain the tank last time but I didn't have the faucet adapter so my husband got it started. The hose is 50 feet and drains down to the utility sink in the basement. Even without the water going it drained pretty quick.  If I had multiple tanks to take care of I might look into the pump thing but this one tank is enough for me. 

      You ONLY have 90 tanks now? Are all of those tanks at your house now?  If you're not commercially breeding fish what do you do with all of them? I can't even imagine having 90 fish tanks...it's inconceivable to me. It sounds like you really love it and it brings you joy...that's what it's all about. 

      Adding pictures to the Yahoo groups page is easy(waaaayyy easier than taking care of aalllll those fish). 
      Once you log in, go to your Yahoo groups page and select Aquatic Life. Once there you'll see an icon for Photos on the  upper left side and you'll select that. Now you'll see an icon on the right for Albums. 
      If you select that you can create your album and after doing so it'll step you through selecting and uploading your opics to that album. In some groups you can email Pics as a part of your post but I see this group has that feature disabled. It's not a bad idea to disable it, cuts back on crap getting posted that may not be appropriate.

      I read a post on the frog group page that Petco was having the $1 a gallon sale so I went and got a 10 gallon tank to use in place of that 5 gal hex. Luckily I had the a Whisper filter, pump, gravel etc... I added a bottle of Safe Start and Prime and moved the Angels out of the 55 gal tank. Since that tank isn't cycled, I'm assuming it won't get cycled but that I'll do water changes however often they're  needed to keep the ammonia down?  When I do the water changes will I just treat it with Prime? For my wallets sake, I'm hoping I don't have to add a bottle of Safe Start every 2-3 days... 

      I know you've briefly gone over the steps I'll need to take with the household ammonia but would it be possible for you to give me something a little more detailed?  Like, will I be starting with the water and filters as they are now or would t be better to drain it again and start from scratch?  As we proceed, will I still have to do water changes on the 55 gal tank? I guess I still don't fully understand what happens when you do a fishless cycle. 

      Now that the tank will cycle w/o fish how is it decided how many fish can go in after the cycle finishes and when do they go in? When will the Angels go back in?





      On Jan 3, 2015, at 6:39 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:ô

       

      Re
      Hi Peg,
       
      Using 5 gallon buckets is the hard way to do water changes, unless you're really strong enough so that it doesn't bother you.  It's also very time consuming and some beginner hobbyists just give up on it at this point, feeling that it's too much work to have to do week after week.  Many of us, including myself, made water changes with buckets when we were just starting out, and when we were much younger < g >.  I'm glad for your sake that you got that AquaVac so that you can get away from carrying those buckets.  You're going to find though, that drawing water out of the tank with that water changer will use a lot of tap water.  One way to avoid that if possible is to start it running like that and then turn the faucet off and just let it syphon out the rest of the way, even though it will take longer.  By now, many of us use water pumps to remove the aquarium water and sometimes one to refill the tank, depending on the water change set-up we use.  On multiple tank set ups, one set of hoses and a pump is used to draw down the water while the previous tank is being filled, so that no time is wasted; it goes quite quickly.  All of the on-line aquarium supply houses carry a selection of water pumps of all sizes, or one can pick up a utility pump at Home Depot or Loews. 
       
      Trying to make this next long-story short, my biggest tanks now are a number of 125 gallon aquariums, but I had tanks up to 260 gallons when I needed them.  Besides these 125's I have several 100 gallon tanks, half a dozen 75 gallon tank, a dozen 50 gallon tanks, a few 55's, etc., etc.  I've cut way back from when I was commercially breeding fish and only have about 90 tanks right now (with a total volume of 3200 gallons).  Of course, I still breed fish right now as I thoroughly enjoy it.  At one time, a good number of years ago, I had a tropical fish store with a friend/partner of mine.  When I sold my half off to my partner, I went into importing fish, from Germany and Africa (Lake Malawi, Lake Victoria and Lake Tanganyika) and distributed them throughout the country (and as far as Australia).  It was never my actual profession as I was a printer, but I guess you could call it a second profession.  Probably spent as much time (or more) doing this as doing anything else.  When I retired from printing, I managed one of the largest Water Garden Suppliers dealing in ponds, their fish and their many plants, specializing in Water Lilies; each day was fun as it was totally enjoyable -- it certainly wasn't work.    Sorry, I don't have any pics in any folders, as no one ever taught me how to put photos up on line.  It's got to be really easy as everyone is doing it, but unless a person does this at least once -- by being walked through it -- it's all Greek, including all the internet terms.      
       
      I see you've found that the smaller the tank is, the harder it is to take care of.  Ammonia builds up a lot faster in a 5 gallon tank as compared to tank double that size.  As you don't yet know how much your fish will eat in 5 minutes, just start with a small amount -- more than just a certain number of flakes you can count on two hands.  If there's food left over after five minutes, cut back on the amount of food next time -- and the time after that -- until you get the idea of the proper amount.  A small aquarium fish's stomach might be the size of a garden pea; it doesn't  take much to satisfy the fish.  You'll never get to learn how much to feed if you keep giving more and waiting for the fish to eat that, and then give it more yet -- until the fish won't eat anymore.  You should never feed fish so much that they won't eat any more.  Fish don't know when to stop eating as they don't know that they'll be fed again the next day.  They'll keep eating as much as they can, while the opportunity presents itself.  It's not good for the fish to feed them this much.  It can even be a cause for a condition called "Bloat," which can ocassionally be fatal, depending on its actual cause.. 
       
      Yes, it can be a money pit if you let it.  Now that you have all the basic necessities, it shouldn't cost very much at all from here on in.  The major additions now would be more fish and maybe plants if you feel up to them.  None of this needs to (nor should) be done all at once anyway.  When the water level drops in the tank due to evaporation, none of the salt is lost.  Yes, you may replace water lost due to evaporation .  When adding new water to top the tank off because of this evaporation, you don't add any more salt.  The water parameters should tell you when to start doing PWC's, especially the nitrite which you don't want to allow to get too high, but even the ammonia should not be much above 4.0 ppm (3.0 ppm is better, although the cycle will take longer).  Too much of a drop in your KH will also tell you it's time to make a PWC.  You can start vacuuming after the second week -- and then, only do half the tank at a time, doing the other half the next week. 
       
      Ray  
       
        
      In a message dated 1/3/2015 4:46:09 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hey Ray!!
      My hubby picked-up the correct hose adapter and it's now on my utility sink waiting for me to
      take it for another spin. I put together a bin of things I may need when I go to use it so I don't have to 
      be running around looking for stuff while it's running or running around trying to find things so I can get started. I included a bowl and instant read digital thermometer so I could get as close as possible to the tank temp.  Carrying all those water buckets really took it out of me.   It wasn't so bad filling that little 5 gal bucket to take care of the 5 gal tank but the 55 wore me out. I can't even imagine how big your tanks are or how many you have. Not too long ago you mentioned breeding or something. Is that your profession?  How many tanks and how many did you own and do you own now?? I looked in the pics area thinking there might be some of all your tanks but there are so many folders that I never found it. 

      The 5 gallon hex was the original home for my African Dwarf Frogs. Even though they were teeny the tank was too small.  My first frog didn't make it and it was after that when I looked for someone to help guide me and found Suzy and Alyce. The next two frogs did better but Suzy really kept on me about moving them to a 10 gal aquarium. She knew that they'd just keep doing poorly in that 5 gal. 
      I had to wait until I had the funds to buy everything I needed and after I did they got moved but I still lost my boy frog.  My little girl Fannie is the only female I have now. She lives with the two boys in the 10 gal. Suzy and Alyce are now guiding me through the cycling of the tank.  With the 5 gal I had to do 50% water changes every other day just to fight the ammonia build up. 

      Losing the frogs in that tank and knowing how hard it was to keep things alive in it were my biggest reason to refrain from putting the Angels in there. They are way bigger than the frogs and I know how
      S
      You said you processed a refund but will you re-charge me when the pkg arrives??

      Sent from my iPhone't go hide. That same night I put food in the feeding ring and he ate with me standing there watching him. I hated the thought of netting him, moving him and starting all over with him traumatized again. He's just trusting me and I don't want to take the chance he'll never get past that. The other one isn't as timid or wasn't as traumatized, just this one guy. 

      Having these two alone in this tank has helped me learn about feeding them. You told me to only feed what they can eat in 5 minutes but that's hard to gauge when I have no experience or no reference point, nothing to look at to tell me ok they're good with 10 pieces of flake food but 15 is too many etc... I've been feeding them by putting 3-4 pieces into the feeding ring. After they get eaten I'll add a few more and I do this until they stop eating. After a few minutes I've been scooping out the leftovers with a brine shrimp net. 

      I haven't started vacuuming the gravel yet or doing any water changes. I wasn't quite sure when those activities should start.  After dinner I'm going to get three Cory cats to clean up the bottom. I'm not planning to add anything else until after the cycle.  When it is time to get more,  I want to keep only non-aggressive, community fish. I had luck with fish coming from Petsmart so I will prob stay with them. I do want to set up a 19 gal quarantine tanks but I've got to hold off on spending for awhile. By the time the tank gets cycled I should be able to set it up but even then it'll have to be cycled too won't it?  Fish keeping has been an expensive hobby. My husband told me last night how much I've spent 
      In it in the last month and a half and my jaw hit the floor. He feels two tanks in our living room are enough. The funds I've used to get them going took a bite from savings.  His exact words "these aquariums are a money pit."  For the next 6-8 weeks I'll concentrate on getting through the cycle and just learning to take care of and clean up after the 5 fish.  I hope 5 will be a good number to cycle with. I know adding afterwards will be slow but that's what I need to do to co-exist with husband and family. 

      I added the bottle of Safe Start at the beginning and I've been adding Prime every day. When should I begin vacuuming gravel and doing water changes? Should I plan to replace filters during or after the cycle?  

      Do I replace water in the tank as its evaporated or is this only done at the water change so the salt can be adjusted accordingly? I understand the water/salt ratio I just didn't know about replacing the evaporated water. 



      On Dec 31, 2014, at 10:44 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      No biggie on the hot water miscommunication.  As you saw, I included a big Grin at the need of my statement.  You just forgot to add that little detail (LOL).  That Aquavac is going to save you a humongous amount of work; those 5 gallon buckets weigh nearly 40 pounds when nearly full.  I'd call that heavy! 
       pm
      I see what you mean about the emergency tank being only a 5 gallon hex.  Not really meant for any fish long-term, although holding a fish or two in quarantine requires a full month to be assured they're disease-free.  BTW, I hope you're aware that such emergency tanks' main purpose -- besides being used as a hospital tank -- is to use them to isolate and observe new fish for a month before adding them to your main tank so that you don't spread any possible disease to your other fish.  As 5 gallons is small, you might watch for PetSmart's periodic $1 per gallon tank sales.  You could pick up a 10 gallon tank for 10 Bucks at those times. 
       
      Looks like the Whisper is entirely out of the question for this small tank -- and the dried out media no longer contains live nitrifiers.  As for holding the Angels in this hex tank, cycling the 55 would take up to 6 weeks so this would be long-term, but it would be much less stressful on the fish, not subjecting them to abnormal ammonia levels.  Even ammonium is toxic, albeit much less so than ammonia.  IF you were to cycle the tank with fish in it, it would be much more of a benefit in using more for this purpose than less, as the finished cycle would be able to convert a larger amount of ammonia.  BUT, as long as we now have this fish-less cycling option, we NEVER advocate cycling a tank with fish if it can be avoided.  It is easier, and surer, to do a fish-less cycle -- and no stress to the fish.
       
      You do understand it correctly.  After the tank is cycled with the two Angelfish, you'll need add any other fish slowly so that the filter can catch up with handling the increased load.  Yes also, on cycling the tank with fish being a big pain whthe sun don't shine -- and with inadequate results.  The benefits of a fish-less cycle are, that you're not subjecting the fish to any stress and you can have the cycles' end result being capable of converting any amount of ammonia that you anticipate your eventual bioload will be when finally adding your fish.  An example, you could cycle the tank so that the nitrifiers will convert 10 ppm daily and if your eventual load of fish only produce 3 ppm of ammonia daily the worst scenario is that a portion of the bacteria will die off until the remainder can subsist on only 3 ppm produced daily.  You can (and should) add all of your fish at the time your tank is fully cycled.  When cycling with fish, it's a constant catch-up game in needing to slowly increase the cycle.  
       
      Getting back to holding the Angels in the 5 gallon tank, I'm picturing their body size (without fins) as being about 2" in diameter -- correct me if I'm wrong.  Changing out 90% of their water each time that's needed doesn't need to be stressful.  If doing this, with being sure the Aquavac is surely attached to this tank, just run the water more slowly -- and add the needed amount of Prime just before you turn the faucets on.  You need to be sure you can control the temperature properly though.  If you can't, have the Aquavac fill the 5 gallon bucket that you'd keep along side the 5 gallon tank and then just pour it in slowly from there after making sure the temperature's correct.  No carrying the bucket any long distance.  Normally, I don't suggest doing 90% PWC's, as for one thing they're not generally needed. but being a strong proponent of the notion that you can never change too much water (the more fresh water the fish are living in, the better they'll thrive), I've been doing 90% PWC's on all the tanks in my hatchery for about 50 years and 40% to 50% PWC's for the preceding 17 years -- and I've had about 3200 gallons in my tanks for the last 25 years (I cut back < g >).  
       
      As for the maximum fish load for your tank, it's not just the number of your fish this depends on but it's also their size (their full eventual size when they reach maturity) -- as they need the space to eventually grow to their maximum size.  You can't go by just the size they are now as that won't allow them room to grow.  There's a rule of thumb estimate that works fairly well for fish up to 3" (when full grown) and which works better for slenderer fish (like Tetras as an example) rather than more heavily-bodied fish (like Platies as an example), and that's to consider 1" per gallon.  While you want a nicely filled tank of fish though, you should never max it out with fish but always leave some room for contingencies -- like power outages during which you have no surface circulation to exchanges gases (carbon dioxide and oxygen).  You could have five 1 1/2" Cardinal Tetras, five 2" Zebra Danios, four 2 1/2" Cory's, two 5" Angelfish,  five 1 3/4" Rasboras and three 2 3/4" Swordtails as one example.  This would total to about 50" of fish.  You need to learn how not to overfeed though.  As I stated a while back, feed just enough that they'll clean up in 5 minutes. 
       
      Ordinarily, salt is not needed in the freshwater aquarium, even though it does have purposes at specific times and is useful in helping treat some diseases.  Some hobbyists use a token amount of 1 TBL of salt per five gallons -- which is not necessary in the slightest.  When cycling a tank with fish, and with subjecting them to possible high levels of ammonia and/or nitrite, even a much smaller amount of salt -- like a pinch per gallon (or less) -- will prevent both ammonia poisoning and nitrite poisoning.  Even the very small amount of 1 TBL of salt per about 25 gallons I recommended can really be reduced to 1 TBL for the whole 55 gallons, although I wanted to ensure the fish would be "doubly safe" (LOL).  Still, 1 TBL of salt per 25 gallons (actually, per 27.5 gallons) is minute.  You only need to be concerned with salt if you're having fish in the 55.  The same goes for Prime, which would be safer to add every day rather than every other day.  Yes, you have that correct, in the amount of salt you need to add back after these PWC amounts. 
       
      If fish-less cycling, and maintaining a 3 ppm level of ammonia requiring the addition of 3 to 4 drops per gallon, you only need to add 3 (or 4) teaspoons of household ammonia to the tank (drops can vary in size).  A teaspoon holds 50 drops.  As it needs to be maintained there until it reaches a point where all 3 ppm will be consumed by the following day, if for instance the ammonia drops to 2 ppm on the following day, you just need to add back about 1 teaspoon of household ammonia to bring it back up to 3 ppm. 
       
      You're not a pain as long as you can put this stuff to good use.  I don't mind giving some advice if it helps you succeed.  That's part of why I moderate here, to help hobbyists like you become successful at keeping fish.  It sounds like it would pay to drive to Gerbers when you're ready for more fish.  You could try PetSmart or Petco if you saw something you really liked that wasn't found at Gerbers, but these fish should definitely be quarantined until you can be sure they're disease-free. 
       
      HAPPY NEW YEAR,gry
       
      Ray
       
              
       
      In a message dated 12/31/2014 4:38:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      I'm sorry I wasn't clear and didn't tell you that I did add hot tap water to the tank. 
      I think the Aquavac is going to be s big help. Even though I only use a 4 & 5 gal bucket to fill, they're really heavy. Even without the use of the suction caused by the water valve, it drained really fast. I got a 50 ft hose so I'll be able to hook up to our utility sink I the basement. When I have to add water for the frogs I pull samples and use the digital thermometer to try to get the water as close as possible to what it is in the tank.  
      My DH is on his way right now to the hardware store to get the right adapter so I'll be able to use next time I have a water change. 
      Keeping the Angels in the emergency tank wouldn't be so bad if it were bigger. It's only a 5 gal hex so it was really crowded in there with the two fish and the whisper like HOB filter I had to rig.  The filter took up a lot of room. I thought about moving the whisper over there but it's a tad deeper do it would crowd the fish even more. Since it's not long term I guess I could move them back and do the fishless cycle. 

      It seems like going through a cycle with two fish will be a bigger pain in the end because if I understand correctly, after the tank cycles I'll have to add new fish really slowly so the filters can catch up to the new amount of stuff in the water. If I add too quickly then I'll screw it all up and possibly have to go through another cycle??

      If that's true then it seems I should add some new fish now, maybe some corys(?) or I should get these fish out and just do what's needed for the fishless cycle.  Let me ask you this.... In the long run which choice will make the aquarium a more stable home. Are there add'l benefits to the fishless cycle?

      After cycling, what is the maximum number of fish that should be in the tank? I don't even know what the correct capacity is but I know I don't want to put too many fish in there and ever get back to the place it was. 

      If I move the fish back to the emergency tank should I try to use the filter media from the whisper? It's dried out now. Can the Bacteria live in a dry environment or would it have needed to remain moist? 

      I'm surprised at adding salt into the the freshwater tank. What is its purpose?  
      If the fish stay in will I do PWCs? Do if I did a 50% water change then I'd add back 1 TBS but if I did s 25% water change I'd add back 1/2 TBS salt? 

      I'm also surprised at adding household ammonia to the tank but I did but some yesterday. It's just so strong that I wouldn't have ever thought it would be safe in an aquarium. 

      I am using Prime but wondered if I should add daily or every other day? I'm sorry I'm such a PITA! I'm not trying to be. Just trying to understand and rebound from the bad info and guidance I had received.  I also need to try to find a good place to buy fish. The only places I know of are Petsmart, Petco, Jacks etc.... I tried looking for privately owned shops but I can't locate any in the Columbus area. I did find a place near Dayton (Gerbers I believe) that is HUGE. They sell both fresh and saltwater, breed diff species and have all kinds of cool stuff but Dayton is 1 1/2 hrs away. Kinda far to drive for fish but st least it's an idea. 

      Ray I really do appreciate your time and all your help! Thank you so much!!


      Sent from my iPhone

      On Dec 31, 2014, at 12:52 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Okay, I'm glad to hear you topped off the tank with some hot tap water.  You need to get a Python though, to make life easier.  I do have to say though, that with your statement of, "I had to refill the tank with the garden hose and being in Ohio, that water was COLD !!," I saw no other choice in understanding this no other way than you having filled your tank with COLD water < g >.  You made no mention of filling it only 3/4 of the way with cold water.  Well at least only the few nitrifiers left on top of the gravel got the worst of it, and 54 o isn't terribly cold.
       
      OH, you got a Marina Aquavac for Christmas.  GREAT; I guess all you'll need now is to get the right adapters for it, to fit your faucets.  That's gonna save you a lot of work.  I don't know how you managed to carry those full buckets of water up until now.  Yes, I did read that you have two Angelfish in your emergency tank, but had forgotten about them needing to go back into the 55.  That's going to make things more difficult as you can't do the fishless-cycle thing with adding household ammonia.  With only these two fish in the tank though, you shouldn't be getting large amounts of ammonia and when it's finally cycled, it won't be cycled for a very large (like 3 pp) amount of ammonia capable of handling the waste of very many more fish.  It will be cycled to handle the waste level of only these two fish, meaning that you'll need to add the rest of your planned fish slowly, a few at a time, to give the cycle time to increase to the capacity to handle the waste from the additional fish. 
       
      I'm almost wondering if it would be feasible to keep the Angels in the emergency tank during the cycling of the (fishless) cycling of the 55, and making 90% PWC's on the emergency tank twice a week.  How large is this emergency tank, and what did you do with the Whisper?  Maybe you could run the partially-cycled Whisper on the emergency tank.  Alright, I didn't read that far ahead.  I see in your next paragraph that you saved the Whisper's media. 
       
      If you're keeping the two Angelfish in the 55, then Yes disregard my instructions on adding household ammonia -- as I mentioned in my first paragraph.  Ideally, a tank should be cycled to be able to convert about 3 ppm of ammonia produced daily by all your fishes (fishes in this case referring to more than one species of fish, as used in scientific literature).  This 3 ppm ammonia level that a tank would be cycled to handle is roughly what a properly stocked tank of fish would produce in one day.  By this, you can see that the ammonia produced only by the two Angelfish will not grow as large of colonies of nitrifying bacteria that will be needed to handle the waste from a full tank of fishes.  By slowly adding the workload on these bacteria with small additions of fishes, you'll gradually increase the cycle's capacity to handle the waste from more fish. 
       
      I see that any nitrate in the 55 right now is the result of the 5% old water allowed to remain.  Your numbers look good and you may also expect the ammonia to drop as a result of having only two fish to add more ammonia even as much of this in one day; at the very most, if it rises, it shouldn't be by very much.  With the nitrite level being at 0.50 ppm, whereas it was zero yesterday, this shows that these particular bacteria are converting the ammonia.  I'm assuming you're using Prime to prevent any ammonia from being toxic, especially at this higher pH).  If not, continue to use it now.  As the nitrite can only be expected to rise from here on until those bacteria start multiplying more, keep those two TBS (Tablespoons) of salt in the water at all times.
       
      I'd like to hope that the 5 ppm of nitrate is the result of bacteria converting some of this nitrite, but I really doubt that, as nice as that would be.  Noticing your your two hardness readings starting to drop.  Note that nothing in the tank can induce the GH to decrease -- it MUST remain at 8 dGH if that's what it was yesterday.  It is what it is and nothing will change that except water evaporation increasing its value.  We'll need to keep an eye on the KH and any further decrease of it, but with the pH being at 8, you can't use very much buffer to stabilize it at 6 as it may increase the pH when doing so.  We'll play it by ear though and digest these numbers daily.
       
      Ray
           
       
      In a message dated 12/31/2014 11:43:12 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Nope! Do not assume..... I filled the first 75% of the tank with cold water from the hose. I then did the install of the Fluval.  After it was ready I finished filling the tank using hot tap water that I lugged with buckets. I started the Fluval then the heater then lastly the Penguin. The thermometer on the tank read 62 degrees when everything was started. Our cold tap water is 54 degrees.

       I don't have a Python but I do have a Marina Aquavac that I rec'd for Christmas. Up until the night I needed to use it I didn't know that none of the adapters would fit any of our faucets, not even the utility sink in the basement. I did find that one end of the adapter would fit the faucet outside. Being unable to physically lug all that water(I'm on disability),  I chose to use the faucet that was available for the largest portion of the fill. 

      The fourth paragraph of your last post states "as you no longer have fish in this tank" but as I told you in my last reply I do have two fish that I couldn't re-home and that needed to go back into that tank. They are two medium Angels. 

      Yes, the 1st ammonia test was done before I drained the tank. The numbers for today will be at the end of this post. If there was room for the whisper without it looking so overcrowded I would have left it, but with everything else, it just appeared too crowded. I still have it all, including the filter media in a bucket. I had to choose between the Penguin and the Whisper and the Penguin seemed like a better choice. 

      I tested our tap water for nitrates when you asked me to test it for ammonia. The nitrate test result was zero. 
      I'm assuming that your instructions for adding ammonia are based on your thought that there weren't any fish in the tank. Should I disregard?  Ideally what range of numbers are ideal for a community tank? 

      Since this isn't going to be a fishless cycle, should I add others to aid in getting thru the cycle? With the ammonia at 1 should I begin adding Prime? If so, would it be daily or every other day? Do I do PWC's with the numbers at these levels 

      Today's numbers are:
      High PH 8,  Ammonia 1, Nitrites .50, nitrates 5, GH 7, KH 5

      Peg


      On Dec 31, 2014, at 2:26 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@...> so wrote:"

       

      Peg,
       
      To begin with, even though you didn't have the Fluval together yet after you filled the tank, should I assume that you started the Penguin 350 filter?  One other thing, getting right to the gravel, the nitrifiers reside only on the top surface and down to a depth of less than 1/2".  They can't live in anaerobic conditions any deeper than this, so they're not found throughout the gravel.  When you removed the UGF, and when you did the thorough vacuuming of it, you most likely would have mixed in the gravel's top layer with the bulk of the remaining gravel.  It would have been difficult to keep the top layer of gravel intact, as not mixing it with the rest.  At this point, there would be no further concern for not destroying all of the bacteria residing on top of the gravel as it would have ceased to exist when buried under the rest of it.
       
      Now, getting back to the Penguin 350, after you refilled the tank if you started the filter right away you would have subjected the nitrifiers in this filter and on its bio-wheels to extreme shock, dependuing on how cold this new water was.  I's quite likely that you decimated a good percentage of them.  I won't ask you why you chose "to use the garden hose to refill the t, but I will ask why you couldn't have used an in-housÿfe faucet with which you could have mixed in part of this water from the hot water faucet.  I'm still unsure if you have a Python yet or not, but that would have been the thing to use in place of the garden hose if you have one.  At the very least, just a few buckets of warmer water mixed in as the garden hose was filling the tank with COLD water would have helped in preserving your nitrifiers.
       
      While Nitrosomonas (Nitrosomas) can tolerate a temperature down to 35 o - 36 o, and while Nitrobacters can tolerate a temperature down to 38 o - 39 o, to subject them to a sudden temperature of even 45 o, is harsh on them.  Dr. Tim's One & Only supplement is recommended to be kept in the refrigerator -- and the average refrigerator is recommended to be kept at 39 o F, but this product's contents aren't plunged instantly to 39 o when placed in the fridge.  You may have little nitrifying bacteria left to continue the cycle from where it was, and may need to start from scratch.  Actually, Nitrosomonos thrive at their best at a temperature of approximately 86 o, and Nitrobacters thrive best at a temperature of approximately 89 o -- some reports even say slightly higher for each.  While they still do well at the 78 o -- 80 o temperatures where we need them, this may illustrate why a sudden drop to such COLD temperatures would be devastating to them. 
       
      Well at least you did a great job in getting rid of all the debris in the gravel -- which was sorely need to do.  As you no longer have fish in this tank, cycling it should be fairly straight-forward.  So, going to your water testing in your first paragraph here, I'm assuming that these ammonia tests were done before you even removed the UGF plates -- since you give other figures towards the end of your message, of the parameters of the new water.  If the pH of your old water was still down near pH 6.8, this fully explains why you had zero Free-Ammonia.  At this pH, all of it will be in the form of Ammonium -- your Total Ammonia will be 100% Ammonium.  That the test came up as showing a deep purple, shows that it was off your API test chart scale having an upper limit of 8.0 ppm, as I stated that I suspected.  No, I've never ever seen a level that high.
       
      I thought you may have decided on removing the Whisper filter, just by your enthusiasm for doing this when you posted last.  I'm not sure if you thought about saving whatever bacteria that had developed in it up to this point, which you could have now used to seed the Penguin 350.     
       
      Getting to your test results of the refilled tank, as your regular pH test kit only goes up to pH 7.6, and since you high pH test result is so much higher, your regular test result is useless as we know the pH is much higher than pH 7.6.  There's really no reason to even consider it.  We know your tank's pH is 8.0.  With your tap water testing at zero ammonia, and with your tank water now testing at 1.0 ppm -- AFTER making a 95% PWC -- this begins to show just how much ammonia had accumulated in your old water, if the 5% residual old water shows a level of 1.0 ppm after being diluted by a rate of 19 to 1 by the fresh water.  It's a bit surprising you have any nitrate, but this is obviously due to the small amount of old water left in the tank (unless your tap water contains some nitrate).  With zero nitrite again, this is to be expected having mostly all new water, although there's probably a trace of it left from the old water that's too small to test for.  Your two hardness (GH & KH) levels are really quite good.  Some would say they're just about ideal for average community tank fish.  Your KH isn't too low that it doesn't have at least moderate buffering capacity -- it does.
       
      So now, with 1.0 ppm of ammonia right now, you'll need to increase it to 3.0 ppm by adding 3 or 4 drops of clear household ammonia per gallon (not sudsy, as I've said before).  Monitor the ammonia level daily and add more ammonia as need to keep the level up at 3.0 ppm each day.  At first, you won't need to add much, if any, but as time goes by you'll need to add a bit more each day, until it reaches a point where you'll need to add the full 3 - 4 drops daily; the test will show zero ppm on these following days, showing that the bacteria are in sufficient amounts that they can handle this amount of ammonia given off from fish if you were to introduce them.  As your tank would be fully cycled at this point, this IS the time to add your fish and to stop adding any more ammonia.  You'll first need to do enough of a water change to remove the build up of nitrate, which should be brought down to at least 40 ppm, or preferably lower.  Right now, this is just the start and we'll guide you as the cycle progresses. 
       
      Ray 
       
       
       
      In a message dated 12/30/2014 11:10:10 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hey there!! 
      I finally rec'd the Seachem Ammonia Testing Kit. I tested the Aquarium water and also my tap. Both free and total ammonia tests show 0 ammonia.  The Aquarium tested with free ammonia 0, total ammonia was deep purple, darker than the darkest blue on the color strip. Have you ever seen anything like that??

      I guess the aquarium count is a moot point now because last night I started removing the UGF and vacuuming all the substrate. By the time I had done a thorough cleaning about 95% of the water was gone. 
      I had to refill the tank with the garden hose and being in Ohio, that water was COLD!! I still had to put the Fluval together so I let it sit for awhile. Was hoping it would warm up a little bit at least. My tank is a Marineland 55 gal with the middle brace. The lid has those cut-out spaces on each side for filters etc....the right side is filled with the Penguin 350 and then on the left I had that whisper that would share space with Fluval. It was crowded and looked it so I pulled the a Whisper out and put the Fluval in the space. Taking the Whisper down gave me opportunity to space the Fluval tubes apart and it all looks nice and neat. 

      Although I vacuumed the gravel really well I didn't add water and rinse it. I was trying not to destroy ALL the bacteria. I also left all 4 filters and both bio-wheels in the Penguin without rinsing them. After I had filled the tank with about 6-8 inches of water I stirred the gravel up to see if there were still going to be a lot of debris or any fuzzles floating around and there weren't. It looked good. I was glad because I really didn't want ti rinse all the gravel if I didn't have to. 

      The only fish I had left were the two that were in the emergency tank I set up. I didn't have filter media to maintain that tank so I knew I needed to move them.  Today the tank was up to temp so I treated with Prime them added a  full bottle of Safe Start (I didn't know until tonight that Amazon carried Dr.Tims or I would've ordered - going to order this week to keep on on hand). Two hours later I moved the Angels over to the 55 gal. So far, so good. 

      Early this evening I tested the tank water. This is what I came up with:  PH 7.6,  HPH 8, Ammonia 1, Nitrites 0, Nitrates 5, GH 8, KH 6.  Do you think maybe the stuff left in the gravel along with what was in the Penguins filter media are enough to maybe take this forward in the cycle? 

      Peg
      Soon Opening: Hoopin' It Up Designs
                                Custom Embroidery & Embellishments

      On Dec 29, 2014, at 1:10 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.comwrote:

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56364 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 1/4/2015
      Subject: Re: Questions on re-establishing tank
      I just answered the last email which addresses the Angels getting moved out of the 55 gal and moving forward with a fishless cycle.

      Sent from my iPad

      On Jan 4, 2015, at 2:07 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Peg,
       
      I just wanted to get back here on this one for a minute.  Concerning the 5 gallon tank, I was wondering how often (and how much) you were changing the water in this tank when you lost those frogs due to ammonia build up (?).  When I suggested putting the two Angels in this tank, I also said to change most of the water as often as needed, even if it was twice a week and 90% PWC's, to avoid any ammonia build up.  I wouldn't have recommended it unless it was the best thing for the fish.  They would have been better off in this 5 gallon tank with no ammonia to stress them, than to now have to be subjected to 6 weeks of cycling the 55 gallon.  With the addition of 3 Cory's though, this makes any other option impossible.  Cory's are never a good choice for maintaining in any water having high levels of any impurities.  They're scale-less fish, which much more easily absorb any impurities through their skin, but this is a moot point now with them already being added.  As I said, cycling a tank is so much easier doing a fishless cycle and you've now just unnecessary taken on a job which will be so much harder in minimizing the stress on fish.  I said a short time back, that we (everyone on here being capable of giving advice) prefer fish-less cycling of a tank whenever possible.
       
      Ray
         
       
      In a message dated 1/3/2015 4:46:09 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hey Ray!!
      My hubby picked-up the correct hose adapter and it's now on my utility sink waiting for me to
      take it for another spin. I put together a bin of things I may need when I go to use it so I don't have to 
      be running around looking for stuff while it's running or running around trying to find things so I can get started. I included a bowl and instant read digital thermometer so I could get as close as possible to the tank temp.  Carrying all those water buckets really took it out of me.   It wasn't so bad filling that little 5 gal bucket to take care of the 5 gal tank but the 55 wore me out. I can't even imagine how big your tanks are or how many you have. Not too long ago you mentioned breeding or something. Is that your profession?  How many tanks and how many did you own and do you own now?? I looked in the pics area thinking there might be some of all your tanks but there are so many folders that I never found it. 

      The 5 gallon hex was the original home for my African Dwarf Frogs. Even though they were teeny the tank was too small.  My first frog didn't make it and it was after that when I looked for someone to help guide me and found Suzy and Alyce. The next two frogs did better but Suzy really kept on me about moving them to a 10 gal aquarium. She knew that they'd just keep doing poorly in that 5 gal. 
      I had to wait until I had the funds to buy everything I needed and after I did they got moved but I still lost my boy frog.  My little girl Fannie is the only female I have now. She lives with the two boys in the 10 gal. Suzy and Alyce are now guiding me through the cycling of the tank.  With the 5 gal I had to do 50% water changes every other day just to fight the ammonia build up. 

      Losing the frogs in that tank and knowing how hard it was to keep things alive in it were my biggest reason to refrain from putting the Angels in there. They are way bigger than the frogs and I know how
      S
      You said you processed a refund but will you re-charge me when the pkg arrives??

      Sent from my iPhone't go hide. That same night I put food in the feeding ring and he ate with me standing there watching him. I hated the thought of netting him, moving him and starting all over with him traumatized again. He's just trusting me and I don't want to take the chance he'll never get past that. The other one isn't as timid or wasn't as traumatized, just this one guy. 

      Having these two alone in this tank has helped me learn about feeding them. You told me to only feed what they can eat in 5 minutes but that's hard to gauge when I have no experience or no reference point, nothing to look at to tell me ok they're good with 10 pieces of flake food but 15 is too many etc... I've been feeding them by putting 3-4 pieces into the feeding ring. After they get eaten I'll add a few more and I do this until they stop eating. After a few minutes I've been scooping out the leftovers with a brine shrimp net. 

      I haven't started vacuuming the gravel yet or doing any water changes. I wasn't quite sure when those activities should start.  After dinner I'm going to get three Cory cats to clean up the bottom. I'm not planning to add anything else until after the cycle.  When it is time to get more,  I want to keep only non-aggressive, community fish. I had luck with fish coming from Petsmart so I will prob stay with them. I do want to set up a 19 gal quarantine tanks but I've got to hold off on spending for awhile. By the time the tank gets cycled I should be able to set it up but even then it'll have to be cycled too won't it?  Fish keeping has been an expensive hobby. My husband told me last night how much I've spent 
      In it in the last month and a half and my jaw hit the floor. He feels two tanks in our living room are enough. The funds I've used to get them going took a bite from savings.  His exact words "these aquariums are a money pit."  For the next 6-8 weeks I'll concentrate on getting through the cycle and just learning to take care of and clean up after the 5 fish.  I hope 5 will be a good number to cycle with. I know adding afterwards will be slow but that's what I need to do to co-exist with husband and family. 

      I added the bottle of Safe Start at the beginning and I've been adding Prime every day. When should I begin vacuuming gravel and doing water changes? Should I plan to replace filters during or after the cycle?  

      Do I replace water in the tank as its evaporated or is this only done at the water change so the salt can be adjusted accordingly? I understand the water/salt ratio I just didn't know about replacing the evaporated water. 



      On Dec 31, 2014, at 10:44 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      No biggie on the hot water miscommunication.  As you saw, I included a big Grin at the need of my statement.  You just forgot to add that little detail (LOL).  That Aquavac is going to save you a humongous amount of work; those 5 gallon buckets weigh nearly 40 pounds when nearly full.  I'd call that heavy! 
       pm
      I see what you mean about the emergency tank being only a 5 gallon hex.  Not really meant for any fish long-term, although holding a fish or two in quarantine requires a full month to be assured they're disease-free.  BTW, I hope you're aware that such emergency tanks' main purpose -- besides being used as a hospital tank -- is to use them to isolate and observe new fish for a month before adding them to your main tank so that you don't spread any possible disease to your other fish.  As 5 gallons is small, you might watch for PetSmart's periodic $1 per gallon tank sales.  You could pick up a 10 gallon tank for 10 Bucks at those times. 
       
      Looks like the Whisper is entirely out of the question for this small tank -- and the dried out media no longer contains live nitrifiers.  As for holding the Angels in this hex tank, cycling the 55 would take up to 6 weeks so this would be long-term, but it would be much less stressful on the fish, not subjecting them to abnormal ammonia levels.  Even ammonium is toxic, albeit much less so than ammonia.  IF you were to cycle the tank with fish in it, it would be much more of a benefit in using more for this purpose than less, as the finished cycle would be able to convert a larger amount of ammonia.  BUT, as long as we now have this fish-less cycling option, we NEVER advocate cycling a tank with fish if it can be avoided.  It is easier, and surer, to do a fish-less cycle -- and no stress to the fish.
       
      You do understand it correctly.  After the tank is cycled with the two Angelfish, you'll need add any other fish slowly so that the filter can catch up with handling the increased load.  Yes also, on cycling the tank with fish being a big pain whthe sun don't shine -- and with inadequate results.  The benefits of a fish-less cycle are, that you're not subjecting the fish to any stress and you can have the cycles' end result being capable of converting any amount of ammonia that you anticipate your eventual bioload will be when finally adding your fish.  An example, you could cycle the tank so that the nitrifiers will convert 10 ppm daily and if your eventual load of fish only produce 3 ppm of ammonia daily the worst scenario is that a portion of the bacteria will die off until the remainder can subsist on only 3 ppm produced daily.  You can (and should) add all of your fish at the time your tank is fully cycled.  When cycling with fish, it's a constant catch-up game in needing to slowly increase the cycle.  
       
      Getting back to holding the Angels in the 5 gallon tank, I'm picturing their body size (without fins) as being about 2" in diameter -- correct me if I'm wrong.  Changing out 90% of their water each time that's needed doesn't need to be stressful.  If doing this, with being sure the Aquavac is surely attached to this tank, just run the water more slowly -- and add the needed amount of Prime just before you turn the faucets on.  You need to be sure you can control the temperature properly though.  If you can't, have the Aquavac fill the 5 gallon bucket that you'd keep along side the 5 gallon tank and then just pour it in slowly from there after making sure the temperature's correct.  No carrying the bucket any long distance.  Normally, I don't suggest doing 90% PWC's, as for one thing they're not generally needed. but being a strong proponent of the notion that you can never change too much water (the more fresh water the fish are living in, the better they'll thrive), I've been doing 90% PWC's on all the tanks in my hatchery for about 50 years and 40% to 50% PWC's for the preceding 17 years -- and I've had about 3200 gallons in my tanks for the last 25 years (I cut back < g >).  
       
      As for the maximum fish load for your tank, it's not just the number of your fish this depends on but it's also their size (their full eventual size when they reach maturity) -- as they need the space to eventually grow to their maximum size.  You can't go by just the size they are now as that won't allow them room to grow.  There's a rule of thumb estimate that works fairly well for fish up to 3" (when full grown) and which works better for slenderer fish (like Tetras as an example) rather than more heavily-bodied fish (like Platies as an example), and that's to consider 1" per gallon.  While you want a nicely filled tank of fish though, you should never max it out with fish but always leave some room for contingencies -- like power outages during which you have no surface circulation to exchanges gases (carbon dioxide and oxygen).  You could have five 1 1/2" Cardinal Tetras, five 2" Zebra Danios, four 2 1/2" Cory's, two 5" Angelfish,  five 1 3/4" Rasboras and three 2 3/4" Swordtails as one example.  This would total to about 50" of fish.  You need to learn how not to overfeed though.  As I stated a while back, feed just enough that they'll clean up in 5 minutes. 
       
      Ordinarily, salt is not needed in the freshwater aquarium, even though it does have purposes at specific times and is useful in helping treat some diseases.  Some hobbyists use a token amount of 1 TBL of salt per five gallons -- which is not necessary in the slightest.  When cycling a tank with fish, and with subjecting them to possible high levels of ammonia and/or nitrite, even a much smaller amount of salt -- like a pinch per gallon (or less) -- will prevent both ammonia poisoning and nitrite poisoning.  Even the very small amount of 1 TBL of salt per about 25 gallons I recommended can really be reduced to 1 TBL for the whole 55 gallons, although I wanted to ensure the fish would be "doubly safe" (LOL).  Still, 1 TBL of salt per 25 gallons (actually, per 27.5 gallons) is minute.  You only need to be concerned with salt if you're having fish in the 55.  The same goes for Prime, which would be safer to add every day rather than every other day.  Yes, you have that correct, in the amount of salt you need to add back after these PWC amounts. 
       
      If fish-less cycling, and maintaining a 3 ppm level of ammonia requiring the addition of 3 to 4 drops per gallon, you only need to add 3 (or 4) teaspoons of household ammonia to the tank (drops can vary in size).  A teaspoon holds 50 drops.  As it needs to be maintained there until it reaches a point where all 3 ppm will be consumed by the following day, if for instance the ammonia drops to 2 ppm on the following day, you just need to add back about 1 teaspoon of household ammonia to bring it back up to 3 ppm. 
       
      You're not a pain as long as you can put this stuff to good use.  I don't mind giving some advice if it helps you succeed.  That's part of why I moderate here, to help hobbyists like you become successful at keeping fish.  It sounds like it would pay to drive to Gerbers when you're ready for more fish.  You could try PetSmart or Petco if you saw something you really liked that wasn't found at Gerbers, but these fish should definitely be quarantined until you can be sure they're disease-free. 
       
      HAPPY NEW YEAR,gry
       
      Ray
       
              
       
      In a message dated 12/31/2014 4:38:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      I'm sorry I wasn't clear and didn't tell you that I did add hot tap water to the tank. 
      I think the Aquavac is going to be s big help. Even though I only use a 4 & 5 gal bucket to fill, they're really heavy. Even without the use of the suction caused by the water valve, it drained really fast. I got a 50 ft hose so I'll be able to hook up to our utility sink I the basement. When I have to add water for the frogs I pull samples and use the digital thermometer to try to get the water as close as possible to what it is in the tank.  
      My DH is on his way right now to the hardware store to get the right adapter so I'll be able to use next time I have a water change. 
      Keeping the Angels in the emergency tank wouldn't be so bad if it were bigger. It's only a 5 gal hex so it was really crowded in there with the two fish and the whisper like HOB filter I had to rig.  The filter took up a lot of room. I thought about moving the whisper over there but it's a tad deeper do it would crowd the fish even more. Since it's not long term I guess I could move them back and do the fishless cycle. 

      It seems like going through a cycle with two fish will be a bigger pain in the end because if I understand correctly, after the tank cycles I'll have to add new fish really slowly so the filters can catch up to the new amount of stuff in the water. If I add too quickly then I'll screw it all up and possibly have to go through another cycle??

      If that's true then it seems I should add some new fish now, maybe some corys(?) or I should get these fish out and just do what's needed for the fishless cycle.  Let me ask you this.... In the long run which choice will make the aquarium a more stable home. Are there add'l benefits to the fishless cycle?

      After cycling, what is the maximum number of fish that should be in the tank? I don't even know what the correct capacity is but I know I don't want to put too many fish in there and ever get back to the place it was. 

      If I move the fish back to the emergency tank should I try to use the filter media from the whisper? It's dried out now. Can the Bacteria live in a dry environment or would it have needed to remain moist? 

      I'm surprised at adding salt into the the freshwater tank. What is its purpose?  
      If the fish stay in will I do PWCs? Do if I did a 50% water change then I'd add back 1 TBS but if I did s 25% water change I'd add back 1/2 TBS salt? 

      I'm also surprised at adding household ammonia to the tank but I did but some yesterday. It's just so strong that I wouldn't have ever thought it would be safe in an aquarium. 

      I am using Prime but wondered if I should add daily or every other day? I'm sorry I'm such a PITA! I'm not trying to be. Just trying to understand and rebound from the bad info and guidance I had received.  I also need to try to find a good place to buy fish. The only places I know of are Petsmart, Petco, Jacks etc.... I tried looking for privately owned shops but I can't locate any in the Columbus area. I did find a place near Dayton (Gerbers I believe) that is HUGE. They sell both fresh and saltwater, breed diff species and have all kinds of cool stuff but Dayton is 1 1/2 hrs away. Kinda far to drive for fish but st least it's an idea. 

      Ray I really do appreciate your time and all your help! Thank you so much!!


      Sent from my iPhone

      On Dec 31, 2014, at 12:52 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Okay, I'm glad to hear you topped off the tank with some hot tap water.  You need to get a Python though, to make life easier.  I do have to say though, that with your statement of, "I had to refill the tank with the garden hose and being in Ohio, that water was COLD !!," I saw no other choice in understanding this no other way than you having filled your tank with COLD water < g >.  You made no mention of filling it only 3/4 of the way with cold water.  Well at least only the few nitrifiers left on top of the gravel got the worst of it, and 54 o isn't terribly cold.
       
      OH, you got a Marina Aquavac for Christmas.  GREAT; I guess all you'll need now is to get the right adapters for it, to fit your faucets.  That's gonna save you a lot of work.  I don't know how you managed to carry those full buckets of water up until now.  Yes, I did read that you have two Angelfish in your emergency tank, but had forgotten about them needing to go back into the 55.  That's going to make things more difficult as you can't do the fishless-cycle thing with adding household ammonia.  With only these two fish in the tank though, you shouldn't be getting large amounts of ammonia and when it's finally cycled, it won't be cycled for a very large (like 3 pp) amount of ammonia capable of handling the waste of very many more fish.  It will be cycled to handle the waste level of only these two fish, meaning that you'll need to add the rest of your planned fish slowly, a few at a time, to give the cycle time to increase to the capacity to handle the waste from the additional fish. 
       
      I'm almost wondering if it would be feasible to keep the Angels in the emergency tank during the cycling of the (fishless) cycling of the 55, and making 90% PWC's on the emergency tank twice a week.  How large is this emergency tank, and what did you do with the Whisper?  Maybe you could run the partially-cycled Whisper on the emergency tank.  Alright, I didn't read that far ahead.  I see in your next paragraph that you saved the Whisper's media. 
       
      If you're keeping the two Angelfish in the 55, then Yes disregard my instructions on adding household ammonia -- as I mentioned in my first paragraph.  Ideally, a tank should be cycled to be able to convert about 3 ppm of ammonia produced daily by all your fishes (fishes in this case referring to more than one species of fish, as used in scientific literature).  This 3 ppm ammonia level that a tank would be cycled to handle is roughly what a properly stocked tank of fish would produce in one day.  By this, you can see that the ammonia produced only by the two Angelfish will not grow as large of colonies of nitrifying bacteria that will be needed to handle the waste from a full tank of fishes.  By slowly adding the workload on these bacteria with small additions of fishes, you'll gradually increase the cycle's capacity to handle the waste from more fish. 
       
      I see that any nitrate in the 55 right now is the result of the 5% old water allowed to remain.  Your numbers look good and you may also expect the ammonia to drop as a result of having only two fish to add more ammonia even as much of this in one day; at the very most, if it rises, it shouldn't be by very much.  With the nitrite level being at 0.50 ppm, whereas it was zero yesterday, this shows that these particular bacteria are converting the ammonia.  I'm assuming you're using Prime to prevent any ammonia from being toxic, especially at this higher pH).  If not, continue to use it now.  As the nitrite can only be expected to rise from here on until those bacteria start multiplying more, keep those two TBS (Tablespoons) of salt in the water at all times.
       
      I'd like to hope that the 5 ppm of nitrate is the result of bacteria converting some of this nitrite, but I really doubt that, as nice as that would be.  Noticing your your two hardness readings starting to drop.  Note that nothing in the tank can induce the GH to decrease -- it MUST remain at 8 dGH if that's what it was yesterday.  It is what it is and nothing will change that except water evaporation increasing its value.  We'll need to keep an eye on the KH and any further decrease of it, but with the pH being at 8, you can't use very much buffer to stabilize it at 6 as it may increase the pH when doing so.  We'll play it by ear though and digest these numbers daily.
       
      Ray
           
       
      In a message dated 12/31/2014 11:43:12 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Nope! Do not assume..... I filled the first 75% of the tank with cold water from the hose. I then did the install of the Fluval.  After it was ready I finished filling the tank using hot tap water that I lugged with buckets. I started the Fluval then the heater then lastly the Penguin. The thermometer on the tank read 62 degrees when everything was started. Our cold tap water is 54 degrees.

       I don't have a Python but I do have a Marina Aquavac that I rec'd for Christmas. Up until the night I needed to use it I didn't know that none of the adapters would fit any of our faucets, not even the utility sink in the basement. I did find that one end of the adapter would fit the faucet outside. Being unable to physically lug all that water(I'm on disability),  I chose to use the faucet that was available for the largest portion of the fill. 

      The fourth paragraph of your last post states "as you no longer have fish in this tank" but as I told you in my last reply I do have two fish that I couldn't re-home and that needed to go back into that tank. They are two medium Angels. 

      Yes, the 1st ammonia test was done before I drained the tank. The numbers for today will be at the end of this post. If there was room for the whisper without it looking so overcrowded I would have left it, but with everything else, it just appeared too crowded. I still have it all, including the filter media in a bucket. I had to choose between the Penguin and the Whisper and the Penguin seemed like a better choice. 

      I tested our tap water for nitrates when you asked me to test it for ammonia. The nitrate test result was zero. 
      I'm assuming that your instructions for adding ammonia are based on your thought that there weren't any fish in the tank. Should I disregard?  Ideally what range of numbers are ideal for a community tank? 

      Since this isn't going to be a fishless cycle, should I add others to aid in getting thru the cycle? With the ammonia at 1 should I begin adding Prime? If so, would it be daily or every other day? Do I do PWC's with the numbers at these levels 

      Today's numbers are:
      High PH 8,  Ammonia 1, Nitrites .50, nitrates 5, GH 7, KH 5

      Peg


      On Dec 31, 2014, at 2:26 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@...> so wrote:"

       

      Peg,
       
      To begin with, even though you didn't have the Fluval together yet after you filled the tank, should I assume that you started the Penguin 350 filter?  One other thing, getting right to the gravel, the nitrifiers reside only on the top surface and down to a depth of less than 1/2".  They can't live in anaerobic conditions any deeper than this, so they're not found throughout the gravel.  When you removed the UGF, and when you did the thorough vacuuming of it, you most likely would have mixed in the gravel's top layer with the bulk of the remaining gravel.  It would have been difficult to keep the top layer of gravel intact, as not mixing it with the rest.  At this point, there would be no further concern for not destroying all of the bacteria residing on top of the gravel as it would have ceased to exist when buried under the rest of it.
       
      Now, getting back to the Penguin 350, after you refilled the tank if you started the filter right away you would have subjected the nitrifiers in this filter and on its bio-wheels to extreme shock, dependuing on how cold this new water was.  I's quite likely that you decimated a good percentage of them.  I won't ask you why you chose "to use the garden hose to refill the t, but I will ask why you couldn't have used an in-housÿfe faucet with which you could have mixed in part of this water from the hot water faucet.  I'm still unsure if you have a Python yet or not, but that would have been the thing to use in place of the garden hose if you have one.  At the very least, just a few buckets of warmer water mixed in as the garden hose was filling the tank with COLD water would have helped in preserving your nitrifiers.
       
      While Nitrosomonas (Nitrosomas) can tolerate a temperature down to 35 o - 36 o, and while Nitrobacters can tolerate a temperature down to 38 o - 39 o, to subject them to a sudden temperature of even 45 o, is harsh on them.  Dr. Tim's One & Only supplement is recommended to be kept in the refrigerator -- and the average refrigerator is recommended to be kept at 39 o F, but this product's contents aren't plunged instantly to 39 o when placed in the fridge.  You may have little nitrifying bacteria left to continue the cycle from where it was, and may need to start from scratch.  Actually, Nitrosomonos thrive at their best at a temperature of approximately 86 o, and Nitrobacters thrive best at a temperature of approximately 89 o -- some reports even say slightly higher for each.  While they still do well at the 78 o -- 80 o temperatures where we need them, this may illustrate why a sudden drop to such COLD temperatures would be devastating to them. 
       
      Well at least you did a great job in getting rid of all the debris in the gravel -- which was sorely need to do.  As you no longer have fish in this tank, cycling it should be fairly straight-forward.  So, going to your water testing in your first paragraph here, I'm assuming that these ammonia tests were done before you even removed the UGF plates -- since you give other figures towards the end of your message, of the parameters of the new water.  If the pH of your old water was still down near pH 6.8, this fully explains why you had zero Free-Ammonia.  At this pH, all of it will be in the form of Ammonium -- your Total Ammonia will be 100% Ammonium.  That the test came up as showing a deep purple, shows that it was off your API test chart scale having an upper limit of 8.0 ppm, as I stated that I suspected.  No, I've never ever seen a level that high.
       
      I thought you may have decided on removing the Whisper filter, just by your enthusiasm for doing this when you posted last.  I'm not sure if you thought about saving whatever bacteria that had developed in it up to this point, which you could have now used to seed the Penguin 350.     
       
      Getting to your test results of the refilled tank, as your regular pH test kit only goes up to pH 7.6, and since you high pH test result is so much higher, your regular test result is useless as we know the pH is much higher than pH 7.6.  There's really no reason to even consider it.  We know your tank's pH is 8.0.  With your tap water testing at zero ammonia, and with your tank water now testing at 1.0 ppm -- AFTER making a 95% PWC -- this begins to show just how much ammonia had accumulated in your old water, if the 5% residual old water shows a level of 1.0 ppm after being diluted by a rate of 19 to 1 by the fresh water.  It's a bit surprising you have any nitrate, but this is obviously due to the small amount of old water left in the tank (unless your tap water contains some nitrate).  With zero nitrite again, this is to be expected having mostly all new water, although there's probably a trace of it left from the old water that's too small to test for.  Your two hardness (GH & KH) levels are really quite good.  Some would say they're just about ideal for average community tank fish.  Your KH isn't too low that it doesn't have at least moderate buffering capacity -- it does.
       
      So now, with 1.0 ppm of ammonia right now, you'll need to increase it to 3.0 ppm by adding 3 or 4 drops of clear household ammonia per gallon (not sudsy, as I've said before).  Monitor the ammonia level daily and add more ammonia as need to keep the level up at 3.0 ppm each day.  At first, you won't need to add much, if any, but as time goes by you'll need to add a bit more each day, until it reaches a point where you'll need to add the full 3 - 4 drops daily; the test will show zero ppm on these following days, showing that the bacteria are in sufficient amounts that they can handle this amount of ammonia given off from fish if you were to introduce them.  As your tank would be fully cycled at this point, this IS the time to add your fish and to stop adding any more ammonia.  You'll first need to do enough of a water change to remove the build up of nitrate, which should be brought down to at least 40 ppm, or preferably lower.  Right now, this is just the start and we'll guide you as the cycle progresses. 
       
      Ray 
       
       
       
      In a message dated 12/30/2014 11:10:10 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hey there!! 
      I finally rec'd the Seachem Ammonia Testing Kit. I tested the Aquarium water and also my tap. Both free and total ammonia tests show 0 ammonia.  The Aquarium tested with free ammonia 0, total ammonia was deep purple, darker than the darkest blue on the color strip. Have you ever seen anything like that??

      I guess the aquarium count is a moot point now because last night I started removing the UGF and vacuuming all the substrate. By the time I had done a thorough cleaning about 95% of the water was gone. 
      I had to refill the tank with the garden hose and being in Ohio, that water was COLD!! I still had to put the Fluval together so I let it sit for awhile. Was hoping it would warm up a little bit at least. My tank is a Marineland 55 gal with the middle brace. The lid has those cut-out spaces on each side for filters etc....the right side is filled with the Penguin 350 and then on the left I had that whisper that would share space with Fluval. It was crowded and looked it so I pulled the a Whisper out and put the Fluval in the space. Taking the Whisper down gave me opportunity to space the Fluval tubes apart and it all looks nice and neat. 

      Although I vacuumed the gravel really well I didn't add water and rinse it. I was trying not to destroy ALL the bacteria. I also left all 4 filters and both bio-wheels in the Penguin without rinsing them. After I had filled the tank with about 6-8 inches of water I stirred the gravel up to see if there were still going to be a lot of debris or any fuzzles floating around and there weren't. It looked good. I was glad because I really didn't want ti rinse all the gravel if I didn't have to. 

      The only fish I had left were the two that were in the emergency tank I set up. I didn't have filter media to maintain that tank so I knew I needed to move them.  Today the tank was up to temp so I treated with Prime them added a  full bottle of Safe Start (I didn't know until tonight that Amazon carried Dr.Tims or I would've ordered - going to order this week to keep on on hand). Two hours later I moved the Angels over to the 55 gal. So far, so good. 

      Early this evening I tested the tank water. This is what I came up with:  PH 7.6,  HPH 8, Ammonia 1, Nitrites 0, Nitrates 5, GH 8, KH 6.  Do you think maybe the stuff left in the gravel along with what was in the Penguins filter media are enough to maybe take this forward in the cycle? 

      Peg
      Soon Opening: Hoopin' It Up Designs
                                Custom Embroidery & Embellishments

      On Dec 29, 2014, at 1:10 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.comwrote:

       

      Hi Peg,
       
      Yes, the holidays are just fine and now with New Year's Day coming up, it will just serve to extend them for another half a week.  Enjoy them while you can.  Yes, sooner or later things will normalize.
       
      Rehoming your remaining fish should make things much easier from here on in.   I'm eager to see what your ammonia tests out to be when you Seachem kit arrives.  Typically, and unless your water supplier  gives you super chloraminated water, most water companies use a concentration of around 4 ppm chloramine in their drinking water.  As the chlorine and the ammonia combine at a ratio of 7.6 to 1, you probably have about 0.5 ppm of ammonia in your tap water, but apparently nothing excessive above that.  Good to see that your ammonia test results are coming up minimal (zero?).  One thing I notice is that the high pH test resuolt of your tap water is pH 7.4 -- and you high pH test result of your aquarium water is exactly the same -- yet your low pH tests of these two different water shows a difference of pH 0.8.  I'm not understanding this at all.  While each test kit tests in a different range, they both should show a direct relationship to each other.  There should be no large difference in one test if the other test remains stable.  Maybe (hopefully) Dawn can join us to figure this one out as maybe I'm missing something, or else maybe there been an error in reading the tests.
       
      While the test colors for the nitrite may be "close" to either 2.0 ppm or 5.0 ppm, there's a huge difference in toxicity if fish were still involved.  Now, with you nitrate previously testing out at 20 ppm even through several PWC's you've made, only to test at 10.0 ppm now, does not seem possible since there's more nitrite available now to be converted into nitrate.  Have you made another large PWC just prior to testing for nitrate? 
       
      Without having any fish in the tank now, rest assured that you don't need to make those PWC's to keep the organic waste parameters down.  You will need to monitor them, to maintain the ammonia at a minimum level of about 3.0 ppm, but you no longer need to be concerned much about it being up at 8.0 ppm -- unless it tends to remain there (which I suspect it may, due to possible excess organic matter in the water).  But, if all starts to go well, as more (if more) ammonia is being converted, you'll need to add a small amount of clear (not sudsy) household ammonia to the tank to keep the level up at 3.0 ppm.  This is done by daily additions of household ammonia of from 3 to 4 drops per gallon to maintain this level constantly, until you see that this same addition of ammonia every day results in a zero reading the following day.  At that time, you'll know your tank is cycled.
       
      With the ammonia at 8.0 ppm, and with the level of debris as being able to be stirred up and making the water cloudy -- and exhibiting organic solids in the form of these "seeds/fuzz balls" -- this is waaay too much debris to have in any tank.  Yes, this is rotting food, and is where your high ammonia is coming from.  And yes, with this enlightenment, you do have a looong way to go, not necessarily in cycling the tank (as the higher ammonia should assist it), but just to make the tank livable for fish.  I wasn't aware there was this much debris.  Without fish in the tank though, this will make it easier (BTW, you can discontinue the Prime

      (Message over 64 KB, truncated)
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56365 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/4/2015
      Subject: Re: Questions on re-establishing tank
      AOL Email
      Alright Peg, you've made the best choice by choosing fish-less cycling for the 55 gallon.  Yes, as you found out, large water changes can add to your water bill.  Depending on which part of there country you live in, your water can be almost as cheap as air or it can get rather expensive for comparably small quantities of it.  As am example, I'm charged $4.12 for each 100 cubic feet (748 gallons) of water -- plus the monthly $8.85 facilities charge no matter how much or how little water I use.  The "facilities" charge pays for the infrastructure of pipes getting the water to my house, the pumping and filtration of the water at the plant and anything else that the water company passes on to their consumers.  By this you can see that I'd use almost 400 cubic feet of water a week if I did 90% PWC's on all tanks each week, or 1600 cubic feet per month, at a charge of $65.92 each month.  However, 24 years ago I switched to my private well -- of which this water is exceedingly better for maintaining and raising fish -- and it only costs me the price of the electricity use to pump the water; next to nothing.  We had another moderator on this Group up until 5 or 6 years ago, who lived in Louisiana.  His water bill was practically nothing.  
       
      Anyhow, with cycling the 55 gallon tank, you will do no PWC's until the cycle's complete.  At that time, you'll need to do one large PWC to the extent of removing all of the excess nitrate, at least anything over over 40 ppm and preferably even more -- enough to get the nitrate down to 20 ppm (or even lower) is always nice.  When that time comes, just give us a test reading of what your nitrate level is, and we'll tell you exactly how much water to change.  At this time, you'll add your two Angelfish and three Cory's back into the 55 and any other fishes you also want to include.  
       
      Now, getting to the 10 gallon tank; you will not be cycling this tank but will just be relying on PWC's to keep the water free of contaminants.  Therefore, there's no need to add Safe Start, but keeping Prime in there all the time (adding daily) would be helpful.  Yeah, I told you abouit Petco's $1 per gallon sales -- I just didn't know when to expect them.  Can't beat those prices, and they usually have these sales at least 3 times a year.  That you've already added Safe Start to this 10 gallon tank is fine, although the bacteria may starve out because of very minimal amount of ammonia being kept in the water all of the time.  No need to add any more Safe Start to this tank.  Yes, you will need to take daily ammonia tests and change enough water in quantity and in intervals to keep the ammonia level as low as possible.  You already have the idea.  You may report the ammonia test results for this tank here and I'll tell you exactly how much water needs to be changed.  I see you added the Whisper filter to enable any nitrifying bacteria that's able to grow, a chance to do just that by populating the media -- with as little ammonia as we're going to allow.  It appears you added the fish this afternoon, please post the ammonia level for this tank tomorrow.  I don't expect it to have changed very much, but we need to have a figure to work with when taken by surprise.   BTW, while on these fish, about what size are these Angelfish -- their body diameter excluding the fins?  How big are the Cory's?
       
      Now, back to cycling the 55.  No need to change any water, even now.  I'll go over the steps once more.  Let me know if you need anything else explained after I'm done -- if it's not very clear.  First, add 3 drops per gallon of clear (not sudsy) household ammonia to this tank.  As a teaspoon hold about 50 drops, 3 teaspoons of this ammonia for starters.  After giving it some time to thoroughly mix, do an ammonia test.  It should be near 3 ppm, but with this much ammonia it probably will not exceed this.  You may even need to add more, but I won't tell you to do this initially as I don't want your ammonia level too high either.  It's always easier to add but much harder to remove without doing PWC's.  Depending on your ammonia level after allowing it to mix, I'll let you know how much (if any) more you may need to add.  Once you have the ammonia level where we want it -- and I believe I may aim for 4 ppm as an amount to maintain -- you'll need to test the ammonia tomorrow (and every day) and add just enough more ammonia to bring the level back up to 4 ppm if any was used.  If none was used, then test it the next day.  When you see a drop in the ammonia, report it here to be able to know how much more ammonia to add to bring the level back up to where we prefer to maintain it.  After about 10 to 12 days, you should start to see a noticeable increase in the nitrite.  At this time, you may test for both of these products and you'll see the nitrite spike to a certain high level after another 10 to 12 days and then slowly decline after this.  Keep adding just enough more ammonia to keep the level at the predetermined 4 ppm.  Towards to end of the cycle, as it's completing, you'll find that more and more ammonia is being used up every day after adding the make-up amount the previous day.  Very near the end, after adding the amount of ammonia to bring it back up to 4 ppm, the next day's ammonia level will read about 0.5 ppm or even 0.25 ppm.  When the next day's ammonia reading is zero after adding the needed amount of ammonia the previous day, and the next day's nitrite level is also zero, you'll know that there's now a sufficient amount of both types of nitrifying bacteria in your filters to be able to convert 4 ppm of ammonia.  This 4 ppm is usually a bit more, and is in most cases not any less, than a properly stocked tank's fish will produce in one day.  At this time, you can discontinue adding the household ammonia and feel free to add all of the fish you want to include in this tank, knowing that all of their ammonia will be converted to nitrite and then nitrate each day.  Your tank will be fully cycled.  As a cycle being able to convert 4 ppm of ammonia per day may be slightly more than your full stock of fish will produce in one day -- which may only be 3 ppm -- but this only means that your tank will be adequately cycled to handle the waste from all of your fish and if that waste is no more than 3 ppm. the bacteria populations will adjust (reduce) to quantities that can live on 3 ppm rather than 4 ppm -- a portion will starve out in readjusting, but you'll have at least as much bacteria to start with than you need.  The 4 ppm constant ammonia level finishes the nitrite cycling part faster as there's more food to feed on. 
       
      IMPORTANT now, before adding any fish -- this is the time at the end of the cycling period when you must change enough water to remove the excess nitrates which have been building up all along.           
       
      Thanks for the instructions on how to post pics.  I've been talked through this in the past, but never actually been "walked" through this, as with someone being right here next to me showing me exactly what needs to be done and how it's actually done.  I'm keeping your notes handy though, but I'll get to it as time permits -- and as a better browser will allow (I need a 'puter update); thanks.
       
      I think I covered everything on cycling a tank.  I know it's not easy to understand what's happening, but I hope my explanations through these steps makes it easier to be understood. 
       
      Oh yeah, Yes, I ONLY have 90 tanks right now < g
      >.  And yes, they're all at my house right now -- wall to wall in
      the basement and rack to rack, isle to isle.  For hobbyists who may be comparatively new to fish keeping, it should be explained that after a while many of us develop
      "MTS," or . . . Multi-Tank Syndrome.  Some hobbyist go to the extent of building their own fish rooms in their basements and others even go so far as to build separate fish houses in their backyards.  A very good friend of mine and a nationally know aquarist at one time had 150 tanks in operation before he retired,  Now he has about 50 tanks -- he had to cut back (he's 86 years old now).  Another good friend of mine who specialized in Killifish rented out a storefront and maintained 300 tanks.  He'd clean 10 tanks a day and by the end of the month he had them all cleaned and would start all over again in their maintenance.  He had to cut back too, as he took a fall off of a ladder and hurt himself.  Fortunately, he's okay now, but he's getting up there in years also.  What do I do with them?  -- I sell them to the local pet shops, submit them in the various clubs' auctions, distribute and trade them among fellow hobbyists and put them in shows.  There's always a market for home-grown tropical fish.  Numerous tanks are also needed to develop other strains of fish when line-breeding to enhance traits while restricting the genes from becoming too inbred (by mutually carrying the genes via cousins rather than by brothers and sisters).  After several generations of side-by-side breeding for these traits by related (but not too closely) fish carrying the same mutation, these cousins are then bred to each other to enhance the traits.  Once the line breeding produces only prodengy (offspring) displaying the desired new traits, the strain is said to be "fixed."  It takes a lot of tanks to carry and raise all the needed fish for developing new strain, which I enjoy doing.  Twenty five years ago I developed my own Koi Angelfish before I even knew it was in the stage of being developed by others.  My Koi was a prize-winning strain which took 1st in its Class in the American Cichlid Association's Convention back then.  I've since developed other Angelfish strains, such as Black Angels being derived out of a crossing "stripe-less" Angels, i.e., Dark Marbles first bred to be solid and Chocolate Angels first bred to the same characteristic, then crossed to create the solid Black (Most other Black Angels today will show darker stripes showing through the lighter overall black because they're developed from Black Lace, which were developed from the wild Silver/Black Striped Angel.  There are lots of things you can do with having many tanks, the imagination is limitless.
       
      Ray
       
             
       
      In a message dated 1/4/2015 3:59:33 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Funny you should mention the use of a lot of tap water.... Our water bill was doubled this cycle. My
      Husband wasn't thrilled but luckily water is the cheapest commodity. I will probably use the Aquavac for water changes but like you mentioned I'll get the siphon started then turn the tap off.  I used it to drain the tank last time but I didn't have the faucet adapter so my husband got it started. The hose is 50 feet and drains down to the utility sink in the basement. Even without the water going it drained pretty quick.  If I had multiple tanks to take care of I might look into the pump thing but this one tank is enough for me. 

      You ONLY have 90 tanks now? Are all of those tanks at your house now?  If you're not commercially breeding fish what do you do with all of them? I can't even imagine having 90 fish tanks...it's inconceivable to me. It sounds like you really love it and it brings you joy...that's what it's all about. 

      Adding pictures to the Yahoo groups page is easy(waaaayyy easier than taking care of aalllll those fish). 
      Once you log in, go to your Yahoo groups page and select Aquatic Life. Once there you'll see an icon for Photos on the  upper left side and you'll select that. Now you'll see an icon on the right for Albums. 
      If you select that you can create your album and after doing so it'll step you through selecting and uploading your opics to that album. In some groups you can email Pics as a part of your post but I see this group has that feature disabled. It's not a bad idea to disable it, cuts back on crap getting posted that may not be appropriate.

      I read a post on the frog group page that Petco was having the $1 a gallon sale so I went and got a 10 gallon tank to use in place of that 5 gal hex. Luckily I had the a Whisper filter, pump, gravel etc... I added a bottle of Safe Start and Prime and moved the Angels out of the 55 gal tank. Since that tank isn't cycled, I'm assuming it won't get cycled but that I'll do water changes however often they're  needed to keep the ammonia down?  When I do the water changes will I just treat it with Prime? For my wallets sake, I'm hoping I don't have to add a bottle of Safe Start every 2-3 days... 

      I know you've briefly gone over the steps I'll need to take with the household ammonia but would it be possible for you to give me something a little more detailed?  Like, will I be starting with the water and filters as they are now or would t be better to drain it again and start from scratch?  As we proceed, will I still have to do water changes on the 55 gal tank? I guess I still don't fully understand what happens when you do a fishless cycle. 

      Now that the tank will cycle w/o fish how is it decided how many fish can go in after the cycle finishes and when do they go in? When will the Angels go back in?





      On Jan 3, 2015, at 6:39 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:ô

       

      Re
      Hi Peg,
       
      Using 5 gallon buckets is the hard way to do water changes, unless you're really strong enough so that it doesn't bother you.  It's also very time consuming and some beginner hobbyists just give up on it at this point, feeling that it's too much work to have to do week after week.  Many of us, including myself, made water changes with buckets when we were just starting out, and when we were much younger < g >.  I'm glad for your sake that you got that AquaVac so that you can get away from carrying those buckets.  You're going to find though, that drawing water out of the tank with that water changer will use a lot of tap water.  One way to avoid that if possible is to start it running like that and then turn the faucet off and just let it syphon out the rest of the way, even though it will take longer.  By now, many of us use water pumps to remove the aquarium water and sometimes one to refill the tank, depending on the water change set-up we use.  On multiple tank set ups, one set of hoses and a pump is used to draw down the water while the previous tank is being filled, so that no time is wasted; it goes quite quickly.  All of the on-line aquarium supply houses carry a selection of water pumps of all sizes, or one can pick up a utility pump at Home Depot or Loews. 
       
      Trying to make this next long-story short, my biggest tanks now are a number of 125 gallon aquariums, but I had tanks up to 260 gallons when I needed them.  Besides these 125's I have several 100 gallon tanks, half a dozen 75 gallon tank, a dozen 50 gallon tanks, a few 55's, etc., etc.  I've cut way back from when I was commercially breeding fish and only have about 90 tanks right now (with a total volume of 3200 gallons).  Of course, I still breed fish right now as I thoroughly enjoy it.  At one time, a good number of years ago, I had a tropical fish store with a friend/partner of mine.  When I sold my half off to my partner, I went into importing fish, from Germany and Africa (Lake Malawi, Lake Victoria and Lake Tanganyika) and distributed them throughout the country (and as far as Australia).  It was never my actual profession as I was a printer, but I guess you could call it a second profession.  Probably spent as much time (or more) doing this as doing anything else.  When I retired from printing, I managed one of the largest Water Garden Suppliers dealing in ponds, their fish and their many plants, specializing in Water Lilies; each day was fun as it was totally enjoyable -- it certainly wasn't work.    Sorry, I don't have any pics in any folders, as no one ever taught me how to put photos up on line.  It's got to be really easy as everyone is doing it, but unless a person does this at least once -- by being walked through it -- it's all Greek, including all the internet terms.      
       
      I see you've found that the smaller the tank is, the harder it is to take care of.  Ammonia builds up a lot faster in a 5 gallon tank as compared to tank double that size.  As you don't yet know how much your fish will eat in 5 minutes, just start with a small amount -- more than just a certain number of flakes you can count on two hands.  If there's food left over after five minutes, cut back on the amount of food next time -- and the time after that -- until you get the idea of the proper amount.  A small aquarium fish's stomach might be the size of a garden pea; it doesn't  take much to satisfy the fish.  You'll never get to learn how much to feed if you keep giving more and waiting for the fish to eat that, and then give it more yet -- until the fish won't eat anymore.  You should never feed fish so much that they won't eat any more.  Fish don't know when to stop eating as they don't know that they'll be fed again the next day.  They'll keep eating as much as they can, while the opportunity presents itself.  It's not good for the fish to feed them this much.  It can even be a cause for a condition called "Bloat," which can ocassionally be fatal, depending on its actual cause.. 
       
      Yes, it can be a money pit if you let it.  Now that you have all the basic necessities, it shouldn't cost very much at all from here on in.  The major additions now would be more fish and maybe plants if you feel up to them.  None of this needs to (nor should) be done all at once anyway.  When the water level drops in the tank due to evaporation, none of the salt is lost.  Yes, you may replace water lost due to evaporation .  When adding new water to top the tank off because of this evaporation, you don't add any more salt.  The water parameters should tell you when to start doing PWC's, especially the nitrite which you don't want to allow to get too high, but even the ammonia should not be much above 4.0 ppm (3.0 ppm is better, although the cycle will take longer).  Too much of a drop in your KH will also tell you it's time to make a PWC.  You can start vacuuming after the second week -- and then, only do half the tank at a time, doing the other half the next week. 
       
      Ray  
       
        
      In a message dated 1/3/2015 4:46:09 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hey Ray!!
      My hubby picked-up the correct hose adapter and it's now on my utility sink waiting for me to
      take it for another spin. I put together a bin of things I may need when I go to use it so I don't have to 
      be running around looking for stuff while it's running or running around trying to find things so I can get started. I included a bowl and instant read digital thermometer so I could get as close as possible to the tank temp.  Carrying all those water buckets really took it out of me.   It wasn't so bad filling that little 5 gal bucket to take care of the 5 gal tank but the 55 wore me out. I can't even imagine how big your tanks are or how many you have. Not too long ago you mentioned breeding or something. Is that your profession?  How many tanks and how many did you own and do you own now?? I looked in the pics area thinking there might be some of all your tanks but there are so many folders that I never found it. 

      The 5 gallon hex was the original home for my African Dwarf Frogs. Even though they were teeny the tank was too small.  My first frog didn't make it and it was after that when I looked for someone to help guide me and found Suzy and Alyce. The next two frogs did better but Suzy really kept on me about moving them to a 10 gal aquarium. She knew that they'd just keep doing poorly in that 5 gal. 
      I had to wait until I had the funds to buy everything I needed and after I did they got moved but I still lost my boy frog.  My little girl Fannie is the only female I have now. She lives with the two boys in the 10 gal. Suzy and Alyce are now guiding me through the cycling of the tank.  With the 5 gal I had to do 50% water changes every other day just to fight the ammonia build up. 

      Losing the frogs in that tank and knowing how hard it was to keep things alive in it were my biggest reason to refrain from putting the Angels in there. They are way bigger than the frogs and I know how
      S
      You said you processed a refund but will you re-charge me when the pkg arrives??

      Sent from my iPhone't go hide. That same night I put food in the feeding ring and he ate with me standing there watching him. I hated the thought of netting him, moving him and starting all over with him traumatized again. He's just trusting me and I don't want to take the chance he'll never get past that. The other one isn't as timid or wasn't as traumatized, just this one guy. 

      Having these two alone in this tank has helped me learn about feeding them. You told me to only feed what they can eat in 5 minutes but that's hard to gauge when I have no experience or no reference point, nothing to look at to tell me ok they're good with 10 pieces of flake food but 15 is too many etc... I've been feeding them by putting 3-4 pieces into the feeding ring. After they get eaten I'll add a few more and I do this until they stop eating. After a few minutes I've been scooping out the leftovers with a brine shrimp net. 

      I haven't started vacuuming the gravel yet or doing any water changes. I wasn't quite sure when those activities should start.  After dinner I'm going to get three Cory cats to clean up the bottom. I'm not planning to add anything else until after the cycle.  When it is time to get more,  I want to keep only non-aggressive, community fish. I had luck with fish coming from Petsmart so I will prob stay with them. I do want to set up a 19 gal quarantine tanks but I've got to hold off on spending for awhile. By the time the tank gets cycled I should be able to set it up but even then it'll have to be cycled too won't it?  Fish keeping has been an expensive hobby. My husband told me last night how much I've spent 
      In it in the last month and a half and my jaw hit the floor. He feels two tanks in our living room are enough. The funds I've used to get them going took a bite from savings.  His exact words "these aquariums are a money pit."  For the next 6-8 weeks I'll concentrate on getting through the cycle and just learning to take care of and clean up after the 5 fish.  I hope 5 will be a good number to cycle with. I know adding afterwards will be slow but that's what I need to do to co-exist with husband and family. 

      I added the bottle of Safe Start at the beginning and I've been adding Prime every day. When should I begin vacuuming gravel and doing water changes? Should I plan to replace filters during or after the cycle?  

      Do I replace water in the tank as its evaporated or is this only done at the water change so the salt can be adjusted accordingly? I understand the water/salt ratio I just didn't know about replacing the evaporated water. 



      On Dec 31, 2014, at 10:44 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      No biggie on the hot water miscommunication.  As you saw, I included a big Grin at the need of my statement.  You just forgot to add that little detail (LOL).  That Aquavac is going to save you a humongous amount of work; those 5 gallon buckets weigh nearly 40 pounds when nearly full.  I'd call that heavy! 
       pm
      I see what you mean about the emergency tank being only a 5 gallon hex.  Not really meant for any fish long-term, although holding a fish or two in quarantine requires a full month to be assured they're disease-free.  BTW, I hope you're aware that such emergency tanks' main purpose -- besides being used as a hospital tank -- is to use them to isolate and observe new fish for a month before adding them to your main tank so that you don't spread any possible disease to your other fish.  As 5 gallons is small, you might watch for PetSmart's periodic $1 per gallon tank sales.  You could pick up a 10 gallon tank for 10 Bucks at those times. 
       
      Looks like the Whisper is entirely out of the question for this small tank -- and the dried out media no longer contains live nitrifiers.  As for holding the Angels in this hex tank, cycling the 55 would take up to 6 weeks so this would be long-term, but it would be much less stressful on the fish, not subjecting them to abnormal ammonia levels.  Even ammonium is toxic, albeit much less so than ammonia.  IF you were to cycle the tank with fish in it, it would be much more of a benefit in using more for this purpose than less, as the finished cycle would be able to convert a larger amount of ammonia.  BUT, as long as we now have this fish-less cycling option, we NEVER advocate cycling a tank with fish if it can be avoided.  It is easier, and surer, to do a fish-less cycle -- and no stress to the fish.
       
      You do understand it correctly.  After the tank is cycled with the two Angelfish, you'll need add any other fish slowly so that the filter can catch up with handling the increased load.  Yes also, on cycling the tank with fish being a big pain whthe sun don't shine -- and with inadequate results.  The benefits of a fish-less cycle are, that you're not subjecting the fish to any stress and you can have the cycles' end result being capable of converting any amount of ammonia that you anticipate your eventual bioload will be when finally adding your fish.  An example, you could cycle the tank so that the nitrifiers will convert 10 ppm daily and if your eventual load of fish only produce 3 ppm of ammonia daily the worst scenario is that a portion of the bacteria will die off until the remainder can subsist on only 3 ppm produced daily.  You can (and should) add all of your fish at the time your tank is fully cycled.  When cycling with fish, it's a constant catch-up game in needing to slowly increase the cycle.  
       
      Getting back to holding the Angels in the 5 gallon tank, I'm picturing their body size (without fins) as being about 2" in diameter -- correct me if I'm wrong.  Changing out 90% of their water each time that's needed doesn't need to be stressful.  If doing this, with being sure the Aquavac is surely attached to this tank, just run the water more slowly -- and add the needed amount of Prime just before you turn the faucets on.  You need to be sure you can control the temperature properly though.  If you can't, have the Aquavac fill the 5 gallon bucket that you'd keep along side the 5 gallon tank and then just pour it in slowly from there after making sure the temperature's correct.  No carrying the bucket any long distance.  Normally, I don't suggest doing 90% PWC's, as for one thing they're not generally needed. but being a strong proponent of the notion that you can never change too much water (the more fresh water the fish are living in, the better they'll thrive), I've been doing 90% PWC's on all the tanks in my hatchery for about 50 years and 40% to 50% PWC's for the preceding 17 years -- and I've had about 3200 gallons in my tanks for the last 25 years (I cut back < g >).  
       
      As for the maximum fish load for your tank, it's not just the number of your fish this depends on but it's also their size (their full eventual size when they reach maturity) -- as they need the space to eventually grow to their maximum size.  You can't go by just the size they are now as that won't allow them room to grow.  There's a rule of thumb estimate that works fairly well for fish up to 3" (when full grown) and which works better for slenderer fish (like Tetras as an example) rather than more heavily-bodied fish (like Platies as an example), and that's to consider 1" per gallon.  While you want a nicely filled tank of fish though, you should never max it out with fish but always leave some room for contingencies -- like power outages during which you have no surface circulation to exchanges gases (carbon dioxide and oxygen).  You could have five 1 1/2" Cardinal Tetras, five 2" Zebra Danios, four 2 1/2" Cory's, two 5" Angelfish,  five 1 3/4" Rasboras and three 2 3/4" Swordtails as one example.  This would total to about 50" of fish.  You need to learn how not to overfeed though.  As I stated a while back, feed just enough that they'll clean up in 5 minutes. 
       
      Ordinarily, salt is not needed in the freshwater aquarium, even though it does have purposes at specific times and is useful in helping treat some diseases.  Some hobbyists use a token amount of 1 TBL of salt per five gallons -- which is not necessary in the slightest.  When cycling a tank with fish, and with subjecting them to possible high levels of ammonia and/or nitrite, even a much smaller amount of salt -- like a pinch per gallon (or less) -- will prevent both ammonia poisoning and nitrite poisoning.  Even the very small amount of 1 TBL of salt per about 25 gallons I recommended can really be reduced to 1 TBL for the whole 55 gallons, although I wanted to ensure the fish would be "doubly safe" (LOL).  Still, 1 TBL of salt per 25 gallons (actually, per 27.5 gallons) is minute.  You only need to be concerned with salt if you're having fish in the 55.  The same goes for Prime, which would be safer to add every day rather than every other day.  Yes, you have that correct, in the amount of salt you need to add back after these PWC amounts. 
       
      If fish-less cycling, and maintaining a 3 ppm level of ammonia requiring the addition of 3 to 4 drops per gallon, you only need to add 3 (or 4) teaspoons of household ammonia to the tank (drops can vary in size).  A teaspoon holds 50 drops.  As it needs to be maintained there until it reaches a point where all 3 ppm will be consumed by the following day, if for instance the ammonia drops to 2 ppm on the following day, you just need to add back about 1 teaspoon of household ammonia to bring it back up to 3 ppm. 
       
      You're not a pain as long as you can put this stuff to good use.  I don't mind giving some advice if it helps you succeed.  That's part of why I moderate here, to help hobbyists like you become successful at keeping fish.  It sounds like it would pay to drive to Gerbers when you're ready for more fish.  You could try PetSmart or Petco if you saw something you really liked that wasn't found at Gerbers, but these fish should definitely be quarantined until you can be sure they're disease-free. 
       
      HAPPY NEW YEAR,gry
       
      Ray
       
              
       
      In a message dated 12/31/2014 4:38:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      I'm sorry I wasn't clear and didn't tell you that I did add hot tap water to the tank. 
      I think the Aquavac is going to be s big help. Even though I only use a 4 & 5 gal bucket to fill, they're really heavy. Even without the use of the suction caused by the water valve, it drained really fast. I got a 50 ft hose so I'll be able to hook up to our utility sink I the basement. When I have to add water for the frogs I pull samples and use the digital thermometer to try to get the water as close as possible to what it is in the tank.  
      My DH is on his way right now to the hardware store to get the right adapter so I'll be able to use next time I have a water change. 
      Keeping the Angels in the emergency tank wouldn't be so bad if it were bigger. It's only a 5 gal hex so it was really crowded in there with the two fish and the whisper like HOB filter I had to rig.  The filter took up a lot of room. I thought about moving the whisper over there but it's a tad deeper do it would crowd the fish even more. Since it's not long term I guess I could move them back and do the fishless cycle. 

      It seems like going through a cycle with two fish will be a bigger pain in the end because if I understand correctly, after the tank cycles I'll have to add new fish really slowly so the filters can catch up to the new amount of stuff in the water. If I add too quickly then I'll screw it all up and possibly have to go through another cycle??

      If that's true then it seems I should add some new fish now, maybe some corys(?) or I should get these fish out and just do what's needed for the fishless cycle.  Let me ask you this.... In the long run which choice will make the aquarium a more stable home. Are there add'l benefits to the fishless cycle?

      After cycling, what is the maximum number of fish that should be in the tank? I don't even know what the correct capacity is but I know I don't want to put too many fish in there and ever get back to the place it was. 

      If I move the fish back to the emergency tank should I try to use the filter media from the whisper? It's dried out now. Can the Bacteria live in a dry environment or would it have needed to remain moist? 

      I'm surprised at adding salt into the the freshwater tank. What is its purpose?  
      If the fish stay in will I do PWCs? Do if I did a 50% water change then I'd add back 1 TBS but if I did s 25% water change I'd add back 1/2 TBS salt? 

      I'm also surprised at adding household ammonia to the tank but I did but some yesterday. It's just so strong that I wouldn't have ever thought it would be safe in an aquarium. 

      I am using Prime but wondered if I should add daily or every other day? I'm sorry I'm such a PITA! I'm not trying to be. Just trying to understand and rebound from the bad info and guidance I had received.  I also need to try to find a good place to buy fish. The only places I know of are Petsmart, Petco, Jacks etc.... I tried looking for privately owned shops but I can't locate any in the Columbus area. I did find a place near Dayton (Gerbers I believe) that is HUGE. They sell both fresh and saltwater, breed diff species and have all kinds of cool stuff but Dayton is 1 1/2 hrs away. Kinda far to drive for fish but st least it's an idea. 

      Ray I really do appreciate your time and all your help! Thank you so much!!


      Sent from my iPhone

      On Dec 31, 2014, at 12:52 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Okay, I'm glad to hear you topped off the tank with some hot tap water.  You need to get a Python though, to make life easier.  I do have to say though, that with your statement of, "I had to refill the tank with the garden hose and being in Ohio, that water was COLD !!," I saw no other choice in understanding this no other way than you having filled your tank with COLD water < g >.  You made no mention of filling it only 3/4 of the way with cold water.  Well at least only the few nitrifiers left on top of the gravel got the worst of it, and 54 o isn't terribly cold.
       
      OH, you got a Marina Aquavac for Christmas.  GREAT; I guess all you'll need now is to get the right adapters for it, to fit your faucets.  That's gonna save you a lot of work.  I don't know how you managed to carry those full buckets of water up until now.  Yes, I did read that you have two Angelfish in your emergency tank, but had forgotten about them needing to go back into the 55.  That's going to make things more difficult as you can't do the fishless-cycle thing with adding household ammonia.  With only these two fish in the tank though, you shouldn't be getting large amounts of ammonia and when it's finally cycled, it won't be cycled for a very large (like 3 pp) amount of ammonia capable of handling the waste of very many more fish.  It will be cycled to handle the waste level of only these two fish, meaning that you'll need to add the rest of your planned fish slowly, a few at a time, to give the cycle time to increase to the capacity to handle the waste from the additional fish. 
       
      I'm almost wondering if it would be feasible to keep the Angels in the emergency tank during the cycling of the (fishless) cycling of the 55, and making 90% PWC's on the emergency tank twice a week.  How large is this emergency tank, and what did you do with the Whisper?  Maybe you could run the partially-cycled Whisper on the emergency tank.  Alright, I didn't read that far ahead.  I see in your next paragraph that you saved the Whisper's media. 
       
      If you're keeping the two Angelfish in the 55, then Yes disregard my instructions on adding household ammonia -- as I mentioned in my first paragraph.  Ideally, a tank should be cycled to be able to convert about 3 ppm of ammonia produced daily by all your fishes (fishes in this case referring to more than one species of fish, as used in scientific literature).  This 3 ppm ammonia level that a tank would be cycled to handle is roughly what a properly stocked tank of fish would produce in one day.  By this, you can see that the ammonia produced only by the two Angelfish will not grow as large of colonies of nitrifying bacteria that will be needed to handle the waste from a full tank of fishes.  By slowly adding the workload on these bacteria with small additions of fishes, you'll gradually increase the cycle's capacity to handle the waste from more fish. 
       
      I see that any nitrate in the 55 right now is the result of the 5% old water allowed to remain.  Your numbers look good and you may also expect the ammonia to drop as a result of having only two fish to add more ammonia even as much of this in one day; at the very most, if it rises, it shouldn't be by very much.  With the nitrite level being at 0.50 ppm, whereas it was zero yesterday, this shows that these particular bacteria are converting the ammonia.  I'm assuming you're using Prime to prevent any ammonia from being toxic, especially at this higher pH).  If not, continue to use it now.  As the nitrite can only be expected to rise from here on until those bacteria start multiplying more, keep those two TBS (Tablespoons) of salt in the water at all times.
       
      I'd like to hope that the 5 ppm of nitrate is the result of bacteria converting some of this nitrite, but I really doubt that, as nice as that would be.  Noticing your your two hardness readings starting to drop.  Note that nothing in the tank can induce the GH to decrease -- it MUST remain at 8 dGH if that's what it was yesterday.  It is what it is and nothing will change that except water evaporation increasing its value.  We'll need to keep an eye on the KH and any further decrease of it, but with the pH being at 8, you can't use very much buffer to stabilize it at 6 as it may increase the pH when doing so.  We'll play it by ear though and digest these numbers daily.
       
      Ray
           
       
      In a message dated 12/31/2014 11:43:12 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Nope! Do not assume..... I filled the first 75% of the tank with cold water from the hose. I then did the install of the Fluval.  After it was ready I finished filling the tank using hot tap water that I lugged with buckets. I started the Fluval then the heater then lastly the Penguin. The thermometer on the tank read 62 degrees when everything was started. Our cold tap water is 54 degrees.

       I don't have a Python but I do have a Marina Aquavac that I rec'd for Christmas. Up until the night I needed to use it I didn't know that none of the adapters would fit any of our faucets, not even the utility sink in the basement. I did find that on

      (Message over 64 KB, truncated)
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56366 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 1/4/2015
      Subject: Re: Questions on re-establishing tank
      I know you keep telling me fishless cycling is the best and that its less stressful for the fish but 
      I tell ya Ray, my yellow angel had just started to trust me, she wasn't going to hide when she saw 
      approaching and she was finally eating when I put food in for her.  I feared netting her and moving her 
      to a temp tank would just spook her even more. I don't know if fish hold grudges but hopefully she'll 
      come around again once she gets back in her permanent home. How long does a fishless cycle usually take??  I've only been thru one cycle and that's the one I just finished with my frogs. I was so happy yesterday when the nitrates spiked and the ammonia dropped to zero. I tested the new 10 gal tank
      Tonight. The numbers were Ph 7.6, HPh 8, Ammonia 0, Nitrites 0, Nitrates 5, GH8, KH 6   I'm glad I had almost everything needed to get the 10 gal going ....well with the exception of the tank. That worked out pretty good. That sale came Along at a good time! ;p


      Today, the numbers for the 55 gal tank were:  Ph 7.6, HPh 8.2, Ammonia .25,  Nitrites 2, Nitrates 40, GH 8, KH 4.  I added 3 tsp of ammonia after I tested the water. I'll test in the morning and let you know how the added ammonia affected the numbers. The Angels from tip of nose to end of tail are about 3 inches and 
      from bottom of fin to top of fin about 4 inches. They have those long things that hang down like whiskers... 
      I don't know what they're called but I didn't count those. They're pretty nice sized but not adult size yet.  I live Angels. They're one of my favorites but the 2 big ones I re-homed were kind of aggressive and 
      have me afraid to get anymore. They terrorized the snails and drove the little fish to hide.  They were intimidating and used fin-Nipping to get the fish out of their space.  The bigger one, I believed to be 
      A male was marked like a tiger. He looked like he was velvet, just beautiful. He would "patrol" an area
      While the other one was hanging out and then they'd switch places.   Very odd behavior. 
      I didn't know until very recently that they were part of the Cichlid family. Sounds like you came up with some beauties.

      It's hard to imagine 90 tanks in 1 house. My head would be swimming as I tried to remember what I
      Needed to do with each. Breeding sounds interesting but I have no idea how it's done or what needs to happen.  Sometime when you get pics up, I'd like to see them! Lol!!! Sounds like the new group member
      Has interests similar to yours. He was talking about the big Pleco and I remembered the ones that are up at our Jacks Pets. People have bought them and they get HUGE and the people can't deal with them. They have some that are 2 feet long. They're so gross. I had some pics of them. I'll have to see if I can find them. 
      They gross me out. 

      I





      Sent from my iPad

      On Jan 4, 2015, at 6:56 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Alright Peg, you've made the best choice by choosing fish-less cycling for the 55 gallon.  Yes, as you found out, large water changes can add to your water bill.  Depending on which part of there country you live in, your water can be almost as cheap as air or it can get rather expensive for comparably small quantities of it.  As am example, I'm charged $4.12 for each 100 cubic feet (748 gallons) of water -- plus the monthly $8.85 facilities charge no matter how much or how little water I use.  The "facilities" charge pays for the infrastructure of pipes getting the water to my house, the pumping and filtration of the water at the plant and anything else that the water company passes on to their consumers.  By this you can see that I'd use almost 400 cubic feet of water a week if I did 90% PWC's on all tanks each week, or 1600 cubic feet per month, at a charge of $65.92 each month.  However, 24 years ago I switched to my private well -- of which this water is exceedingly better for maintaining and raising fish -- and it only costs me the price of the electricity use to pump the water; next to nothing.  We had another moderator on this Group up until 5 or 6 years ago, who lived in Louisiana.  His water bill was practically nothing. 
      Anyhow, with cycling the 55 gallon tank, you will do no PWC's until the cycle's complete.  At that time, you'll need to do one large PWC to the extent of removing all of the excess nitrate, at least anything over over 40 ppm and preferably even more -- enough to get the nitrate down to 20 ppm (or even lower) is always nice.  When that time comes, just give us a test reading of what your nitrate level is, and we'll tell you exactly how much water to change.  At this time, you'll add your two Angelfish and three Cory's back into the 55 and any other fishes you also want to include.  
       
      Now, getting to the 10 gallon tank; you will not be cycling this tank but will just be relying on PWC's to keep the water free of contaminants.  Therefore, there's no need to add Safe Start, but keepi4 Prime in there all the time (adding daily) would be helpful.  Yeah, I told you abouit Petco's $1 per gallon sales -- I just didn't know when to expect them.  Can't beat those prices, and they usually have these sales at least 3 times a year.  That you've already added Safe Start to this 10 gallon tank is fine, although the bacteria may starve out because of very minimal amount of ammonia being kept in the water all of the time.  No need to add any more Safe Start to this tank.  Yes, you will need to take daily ammonia tests and change enough water in quantity and in intervals to keep the ammonia level as low as possible.  You already have the idea.  You may report the ammonia test results for this tank here and I'll tell you exactly how much water needs to be changed.  I see you added the Whisper filter to enable any nitrifying bacteria that's able to grow, a chance to do just that by populating the media -- with as little ammonia as we're going to allow.  It appears you added the fish this afternoon, please post the ammonia level for this tank tomorrow.  I don't expect it to have changed very much, but we need to have a figure to work with when taken by surprise.   BTW, while on these fish, about what size are these Angelfish -- their body diameter excluding the fins?  How big are the Cory's?
       
      Now, back to cycling the 55.  No need to change any water, even now.  I'll go over the steps once more.  Let me know if you need anything else explained after I'm done -- if it's not very clear.  First, add 3 drops per gallon of clear (not sudsy) household ammonia to this tank.  As a teaspoon hold about 50 drops, 3 teaspoons of this ammonia for starters.  After giving it some time to thoroughly mix, do an ammonia test.  It should be near 3 ppm, but with this much ammonia it probably will not exceed this.  You may even need to add more, but I won't tell you to do this initially as I don't want your ammonia level too high either.  It's always easier to add but much harder to remove without doing PWC's.  Depending on your ammonia level after allowing it to mix, I'll let you know how much (if any) more you may need to add.  Once you have the ammonia level where we want it -- and I believe I may aim for 4 ppm as an amount to maintain -- you'll need to test the ammonia tomorrow (and every day) and add just enough more ammonia to bring the level back up to 4 ppm if any was used.  If none was used, then test it the next day.  When you see a drop in the ammonia, report it here to be able to know how much more ammonia to add to bring the level back up to where we prefer to maintain it.  After about 10 to 12 days, you should start to see a noticeable increase in the nitrite.  At this time, you may test for both of these products and you'll see the nitrite spike to a certain high level after another 10 to 12 days and then slowly decline after this.  Keep adding just enough more ammonia to keep the level at the predetermined 4 ppm.  Towards to end of the cycle, as it's completing, you'll find that more and more ammonia is being used up every day after adding the make-up amount the previous day.  Very near the end, after adding the amount of ammonia to bring it back up to 4 ppm, the next day's ammonia level will read about 0.5 ppm or even 0.25 ppm.  When the next day's ammonia reading is zero after adding the needed amount of ammonia the previous day, and the next day's nitrite level is also zero, you'll know that there's now a sufficient amount of both types of nitrifying bacteria in your filters to be able to convert 4 ppm of ammonia.  This 4 ppm is usually a bit more, and is in most cases not any less, than a properly stocked tank's fish will produce in one day.  At this time, you can discontinue adding the household ammonia and feel free to add all of the fish you want to include in this tank, knowing that all of their ammonia will be converted to nitrite and then nitrate each day.  Your tank will be fully cycled.  As a cycle being able to convert 4 ppm of ammonia per day may be slightly more than your full stock of fish will produce in one day -- which may only be 3 ppm -- but this only means that your tank will be adequately cycled to handle the waste from all of your fish and if that waste is no more than 3 ppm. the bacteria populations will adjust (reduce) to quantities that can live on 3 ppm rather than 4 ppm -- a portion will starve out in readjusting, but you'll have at least as much bacteria to start with than you need.  The 4 ppm constant ammonia level finishes the nitrite cycling part faster as there's more food to feed on. 
       
      IMPORTANT now, before adding any fish -- this is the time at the end of the cycling period when you must change enough water to remove the excess nitrates which have been building up all along.           
       
      Thanks for the instructions on how to post pics.  I've been talked through this in the past, but never actually been "walked" through this, as with someone being right here next to me showing me exactly what needs to be done and how it's actually done.  I'm keeping your notes handy though, but I'll get to it as time permits -- and as a better browser will allow (I need a 'puter update); thanks.
       
      I think I covered everything on cycling a tank.  I know it's not easy to understand what's happening, but I hope my explanations through these steps makes it easier to be understood. 
       
      Oh yeah, Yes, I ONLY have 90 tanks right now < g >.  And yes, they're all at my house right now -- wall to wall in the basement and rack to rack, isle to isle.  For hobbyists who may be comparatively new to fish keeping, it should be explained that after a while many of us develop "MTS," or . . . Multi-Tank Syndrome.  Some hobbyist go to the extent of building their own fish rooms in their basements and others even go so far as to build separate fish houses in their backyards.  A very good friend of mine and a nationally know aquarist at one time had 150 tanks in operation before he retired,  Now he has about 50 tanks -- he had to cut back (he's 86 years old now).  Another good friend of mine who specialized in Killifish rented out a storefront and maintained 300 tanks.  He'd clean 10 tanks a day and by the end of the month he had them all cleaned and would start all over again in their maintenance.  He had to cut back too, as he took a fall off of a ladder and hurt himself.  Fortunately, he's okay now, but he's getting up there in years also.  What do I do with them?  -- I sell them to the local pet shops, submit them in the various clubs' auctions, distribute and trade them among fellow hobbyists and put them in shows.  There's always a market for home-grown tropical fish.  Numerous tanks are also needed to develop other strains of fish when line-breeding to enhance traits while restricting the genes from becoming too inbred (by mutually carrying the genes via cousins rather than by brothers and sisters).  After several generations of side-by-side breeding for these traits by related (but not too closely) fish carrying the same mutation, these cousins are then bred to each other to enhance the traits.  Once the line breeding produces only prodengy (offspring) displaying the desired new traits, the strain is said to be "fixed."  It takes a lot of tanks to carry and raise all the needed fish for developing new strain, which I enjoy doing.  Twenty five years ago I developed my own Koi Angelfish before I even knew it was in the stage of being developed by others.  My Koi was a prize-winning strain which took 1st in its Class in the American Cichlid Association's Convention back then.  I've since developed other Angelfish strains, such as Black Angels being derived out of a crossing "stripe-less" Angels, i.e., Dark Marbles first bred to be solid and Chocolate Angels first bred to the same characteristic, then crossed to create the solid Black (Most other Black Angels today will show darker stripes showing through the lighter overall black because they're developed from Black Lace, which were developed from the wild Silver/Black Striped Angel.  There are lots of things you can do with having many tanks, the imagination is limitless.
       
      Ray
       
             
       
      In a message dated 1/4/2015 3:59:33 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Funny you should mention the use of a lot of tap water.... Our water bill was doubled this cycle. My
      Husband wasn't thrilled but luckily water is the cheapest commodity. I will probably use the Aquavac for water changes but like you mentioned I'll get the siphon started then turn the tap off.  I used it to drain the tank last time but I didn't have the faucet adapter so my husband got it started. The hose is 50 feet and drains down to the utility sink in the basement. Even without the water going it drained pretty quick.  If I had multiple tanks to take care of I might look into the pump thing but this one tank is enough for me. 

      You ONLY have 90 tanks now? Are all of those tanks at your house now?  If you're not commercially breeding fish what do you do with all of them? I can't even imagine having 90 fish tanks...it's inconceivable to me. It sounds like you really love it and it brings you joy...that's what it's all about. 

      Adding pictures to the Yahoo groups page is easy(waaaayyy easier than taking care of aalllll those fish). 
      Once you log in, go to your Yahoo groups page and select Aquatic Life. Once there you'll see an icon for Photos on the  upper left side and you'll select that. Now you'll see an icon on the right for Albums. 
      If you select that you can create your album and after doing so it'll step you through selecting and uploading your opics to that album. In some groups you can email Pics as a part of your post but I see this group has that feature disabled. It's not a bad idea to disable it, cuts back on crap getting posted that may not be appropriate.

      I read a post on the frog group page that Petco was having the $1 a gallon sale so I went and got a 10 gallon tank to use in place of that 5 gal hex. Luckily I had the a Whisper filter, pump, gravel etc... I added a bottle of Safe Start and Prime and moved the Angels out of the 55 gal tank. Since that tank isn't cycled, I'm assuming it won't get cycled but that I'll do water changes however often they're  needed to keep the ammonia down?  When I do the water changes will I just treat it with Prime? For my wallets sake, I'm hoping I don't have to add a bottle of Safe Start every 2-3 days... 

      I know you've briefly gone over the steps I'll need to take with the household ammonia but would it be possible for you to give me something a little more detailed?  Like, will I be starting with the water and filters as they are now or would t be better to drain it again and start from scratch?  As we proceed, will I still have to do water changes on the 55 gal tank? I guess I still don't fully understand what happens when you do a fishless cycle. 

      Now that the tank will cycle w/o fish how is it decided how many fish can go in after the cycle finishes and when do they go in? When will the Angels go back in?





      On Jan 3, 2015, at 6:39 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:ô

       

      Re
      Hi Peg,
       
      Using 5 gallon buckets is the hard way to do water changes, unless you're really strong enough so that it doesn't bother you.  It's also very time consuming and some beginner hobbyists just give up on it at this point, feeling that it's too much work to have to do week after week.  Many of us, including myself, made water changes with buckets when we were just starting out, and when we were much younger < g >.  I'm glad for your sake that you got that AquaVac so that you can get away from carrying those buckets.  You're going to find though, that drawing water out of the tank with that water changer will use a lot of tap water.  One way to avoid that if possible is to start it running like that and then turn the faucet off and just let it syphon out the rest of the way, even though it will take longer.  By now, many of us use water pumps to remove the aquarium water and sometimes one to refill the tank, depending on the water change set-up we use.  On multiple tank set ups, one set of hoses and a pump is used to draw down the water while the previous tank is being filled, so that no time is wasted; it goes quite quickly.  All of the on-line aquarium supply houses carry a selection of water pumps of all sizes, or one can pick up a utility pump at Home Depot or Loews. 
       
      Trying to make this next long-story short, my biggest tanks now are a number of 125 gallon aquariums, but I had tanks up to 260 gallons when I needed them.  Besides these 125's I have several 100 gallon tanks, half a dozen 75 gallon tank, a dozen 50 gallon tanks, a few 55's, etc., etc.  I've cut way back from when I was commercially breeding fish and only have about 90 tanks right now (with a total volume of 3200 gallons).  Of course, I still breed fish right now as I thoroughly enjoy it.  At one time, a good number of years ago, I had a tropical fish store with a friend/partner of mine.  When I sold my half off to my partner, I went into importing fish, from Germany and Africa (Lake Malawi, Lake Victoria and Lake Tanganyika) and distributed them throughout the country (and as far as Australia).  It was never my actual profession as I was a printer, but I guess you could call it a second profession.  Probably spent as much time (or more) doing this as doing anything else.  When I retired from printing, I managed one of the largest Water Garden Suppliers dealing in ponds, their fish and their many plants, specializing in Water Lilies; each day was fun as it was totally enjoyable -- it certainly wasn't work.    Sorry, I don't have any pics in any folders, as no one ever taught me how to put photos up on line.  It's got to be really easy as everyone is doing it, but unless a person does this at least once -- by being walked through it -- it's all Greek, including all the internet terms.      
       
      I see you've found that the smaller the tank is, the harder it is to take care of.  Ammonia builds up a lot faster in a 5 gallon tank as compared to tank double that size.  As you don't yet know how much your fish will eat in 5 minutes, just start with a small amount -- more than just a certain number of flakes you can count on two hands.  If there's food left over after five minutes, cut back on the amount of food next time -- and the time after that -- until you get the idea of the proper amount.  A small aquarium fish's stomach might be the size of a garden pea; it doesn't  take much to satisfy the fish.  You'll never get to learn how much to feed if you keep giving more and waiting for the fish to eat that, and then give it more yet -- until the fish won't eat anymore.  You should never feed fish so much that they won't eat any more.  Fish don't know when to stop eating as they don't know that they'll be fed again the next day.  They'll keep eating as much as they can, while the opportunity presents itself.  It's not good for the fish to feed them this much.  It can even be a cause for a condition called "Bloat," which can ocassionally be fatal, depending on its actual cause.. 
       
      Yes, it can be a money pit if you let it.  Now that you have all the basic necessities, it shouldn't cost very much at all from here on in.  The major additions now would be more fish and maybe plants if you feel up to them.  None of this needs to (nor should) be done all at once anyway.  When the water level drops in the tank due to evaporation, none of the salt is lost.  Yes, you may replace water lost due to evaporation .  When adding new water to top the tank off because of this evaporation, you don't add any more salt.  The water parameters should tell you when to start doing PWC's, especially the nitrite which you don't want to allow to get too high, but even the ammonia should not be much above 4.0 ppm (3.0 ppm is better, although the cycle will take longer).  Too much of a drop in your KH will also tell you it's time to make a PWC.  You can start vacuuming after the second week -- and then, only do half the tank at a time, doing the other half the next week. 
       
      Ray  
       
        
      In a message dated 1/3/2015 4:46:09 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hey Ray!!
      My hubby picked-up the correct hose adapter and it's now on my utility sink waiting for me to
      take it for another spin. I put together a bin of things I may need when I go to use it so I don't have to 
      be running around looking for stuff while it's running or running around trying to find things so I can get started. I included a bowl and instant read digital thermometer so I could get as close as possible to the tank temp.  Carrying all those water buckets really took it out of me.   It wasn't so bad filling that little 5 gal bucket to take care of the 5 gal tank but the 55 wore me out. I can't even imagine how big your tanks are or how many you have. Not too long ago you mentioned breeding or something. Is that your profession?  How many tanks and how many did you own and do you own now?? I looked in the pics area thinking there might be some of all your tanks but there are so many folders that I never found it. 

      The 5 gallon hex was the original home for my African Dwarf Frogs. Even though they were teeny the tank was too small.  My first frog didn't make it and it was after that when I looked for someone to help guide me and found Suzy and Alyce. The next two frogs did better but Suzy really kept on me about moving them to a 10 gal aquarium. She knew that they'd just keep doing poorly in that 5 gal. 
      I had to wait until I had the funds to buy everything I needed and after I did they got moved but I still lost my boy frog.  My little girl Fannie is the only female I have now. She lives with the two boys in the 10 gal. Suzy and Alyce are now guiding me through the cycling of the tank.  With the 5 gal I had to do 50% water changes every other day just to fight the ammonia build up. 

      Losing the frogs in that tank and knowing how hard it was to keep things alive in it were my biggest reason to refrain from putting the Angels in there. They are way bigger than the frogs and I know how
      S
      You said you processed a refund but will you re-charge me when the pkg arrives??

      Sent from my iPhone't go hide. That same night I put food in the feeding ring and he ate with me standing there watching him. I hated the thought of netting him, moving him and starting all over with him traumatized again. He's just trusting me and I don't want to take the chance he'll never get past that. The other one isn't as timid or wasn't as traumatized, just this one guy. 

      Having these two alone in this tank has helped me learn about feeding them. You told me to only feed what they can eat in 5 minutes but that's hard to gauge when I have no experience or no reference point, nothing to look at to tell me ok they're good with 10 pieces of flake food but 15 is too many etc... I've been feeding them by putting 3-4 pieces into the feeding ring. After they get eaten I'll add a few more and I do this until they stop eating. After a few minutes I've been scooping out the leftovers with a brine shrimp net. 

      I haven't started vacuuming the gravel yet or doing any water changes. I wasn't quite sure when those activities should start.  After dinner I'm going to get three Cory cats to clean up the bottom. I'm not planning to add anything else until after the cycle.  When it is time to get more,  I want to keep only non-aggressive, community fish. I had luck with fish coming from Petsmart so I will prob stay with them. I do want to set up a 19 gal quarantine tanks but I've got to hold off on spending for awhile. By the time the tank gets cycled I should be able to set it up but even then it'll have to be cycled too won't it?  Fish keeping has been an expensive hobby. My husband told me last night how much I've spent 
      In it in the last month and a half and my jaw hit the floor. He feels two tanks in our living room are enough. The funds I've used to get them going took a bite from savings.  His exact words "these aquariums are a money pit."  For the next 6-8 weeks I'll concentrate on getting through the cycle and just learning to take care of and clean up after the 5 fish.  I hope 5 will be a good number to cycle with. I know adding afterwards will be slow but that's what I need to do to co-exist with husband and family. 

      I added the bottle of Safe Start at the beginning and I've been adding Prime every day. When should I begin vacuuming gravel and doing water changes? Should I plan to replace filters during or after the cycle?  

      Do I replace water in the tank as its evaporated or is this only done at the water change so the salt can be adjusted accordingly? I understand the water/salt ratio I just didn't know about replacing the evaporated water. 



      On Dec 31, 2014, at 10:44 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      No biggie on the hot water miscommunication.  As you saw, I included a big Grin at the need of my statement.  You just forgot to add that little detail (LOL).  That Aquavac is going to save you a humongous amount of work; those 5 gallon buckets weigh nearly 40 pounds when nearly full.  I'd call that heavy! 
       pm
      I see what you mean about the emergency tank being only a 5 gallon hex.  Not really meant for any fish long-term, although holding a fish or two in quarantine requires a full month to be assured they're disease-free.  BTW, I hope you're aware that such emergency tanks' main purpose -- besides being used as a hospital tank -- is to use them to isolate and observe new fish for a month before adding them to your main tank so that you don't spread any possible disease to your other fish.  As 5 gallons is small, you might watch for PetSmart's periodic $1 per gallon tank sales.  You could pick up a 10 gallon tank for 10 Bucks at those times. 
       
      Looks like the Whisper is entirely out of the question for this small tank -- and the dried out media no longer contains live nitrifiers.  As for holding the Angels in this hex tank, cycling the 55 would take up to 6 weeks so this would be long-term, but it would be much less stressful on the fish, not subjecting them to abnormal ammonia levels.  Even ammonium is toxic, albeit much less so than ammonia.  IF you were to cycle the tank with fish in it, it would be much more of a benefit in using more for this purpose than less, as the finished cycle would be able to convert a larger amount of ammonia.  BUT, as long as we now have this fish-less cycling option, we NEVER advocate cycling a tank with fish if it can be avoided.  It is easier, and surer, to do a fish-less cycle -- and no stress to the fish.
       
      You do understand it correctly.  After the tank is cycled with the two Angelfish, you'll need add any other fish slowly so that the filter can catch up with handling the increased load.  Yes also, on cycling the tank with fish being a big pain whthe sun don't shine -- and with inadequate results.  The benefits of a fish-less cycle are, that you're not subjecting the fish to any stress and you can have the cycles' end result being capable of converting any amount of ammonia that you anticipate your eventual bioload will be when finally adding your fish.  An example, you could cycle the tank so that the nitrifiers will convert 10 ppm daily and if your eventual load of fish only produce 3 ppm of ammonia daily the worst scenario is that a portion of the bacteria will die off until the remainder can subsist on only 3 ppm produced daily.  You can (and should) add all of your fish at the time your tank is fully cycled.  When cycling with fish, it's a constant catch-up game in needing to slowly increase the cycle.  
       
      Getting back to holding the Angels in the 5 gallon tank, I'm picturing their body size (without fins) as being about 2" in diameter -- correct me if I'm wrong.  Changing out 90% of their water each time that's needed doesn't need to be stressful.  If doing this, with being sure the Aquavac is surely attached to this tank, just run the water more slowly -- and add the needed amount of Prime just before you turn the faucets on.  You need to be sure you can control the temperature properly though.  If you can't, have the Aquavac fill the 5 gallon bucket that you'd keep along side the 5 gallon tank and then just pour it in slowly from there after making sure the temperature's correct.  No carrying the bucket any long distance.  Normally, I don't suggest doing 90% PWC's, as for one thing they're not generally needed. but being a strong proponent of the notion that you can never change too much water (the more fresh water the fish are living in, the better they'll thrive), I've been doing 90% PWC's on all the tanks in my hatchery for about 50 years and 40% to 50% PWC's for the preceding 17 years -- and I've had about 3200 gallons in my tanks for the last 25 years (I cut back < g >).  
       
      As for the maximum fish load for your tank, it's not just the number of your fish this depends on but it's also their size (their full eventual size when they reach maturity) -- as they need the space to eventually grow to their maximum size.  You can't go by just the size they are now as that won't allow them room to grow.  There's a rule of thumb estimate that works fairly well for fish up to 3" (when full grown) and which works better for slenderer fish (like Tetras as an example) rather than more heavily-bodied fish (like Platies as an example), and that's to consider 1" per gallon.  While you want a nicely filled tank of fish though, you should never max it out with fish but always leave some room for contingencies -- like power outages during which you have no surface circulation to exchanges gases (carbon dioxide and oxygen).  You could have five 1 1/2" Cardinal Tetras, five 2" Zebra Danios, four 2 1/2" Cory's, two 5" Angelfish,  five 1 3/4" Rasboras and three 2 3/4" Swordtails as one example.  This would total to about 50" of fish.  You need to learn how not to overfeed though.  As I stated a while back, feed just enough that they'll clean up in 5 minutes. 
       
      Ordinarily, salt is not needed in the freshwater aquarium, even though it does have purposes at specific times and is useful in helping treat some diseases.  Some hobbyists use a token amount of 1 TBL of salt per five gallons -- which is not necessary in the slightest.  When cycling a tank with fish, and with subjecting them to possible high levels of ammonia and/or nitrite, even a much smaller amount of salt -- like a pinch per gallon (or less) -- will prevent both ammonia poisoning and nitrite poisoning.  Even the very small amount of 1 TBL of salt per about 25 gallons I recommended can really be reduced to 1 TBL for the whole 55 gallons, although I wanted to ensure the fish would be "doubly safe" (LOL).  Still, 1 TBL of salt per 25 gallons (actually, per 27.5 gallons) is minute.  You only need to be concerned with salt if you're having fish in the 55.  The same goes for Prime, which would be safer to add every day rather than every other day.  Yes, you have that correct, in the amount of salt you need to add back after these PWC amounts. 
       
      If fish-less cycling, and maintaining a 3 ppm level of ammonia requiring the addition of 3 to 4 drops per gallon, you only need to add 3 (or 4) teaspoons of household ammonia to the tank (drops can vary in size).  A teaspoon holds 50 drops.  As it needs to be maintained there until it reaches a point where all 3 ppm will be consumed by the following day, if for instance the ammonia drops to 2 ppm on the following day, you just need to add back about 1 teaspoon of household ammonia to bring it back up to 3 ppm. 
       
      You're not a pain as long as you can put this stuff to good use.  I don't mind giving some advice if it helps you succeed.  That's part of why I moderate here, to help hobbyists like you become successful at keeping fish.  It sounds like it would pay to drive to Gerbers when you're ready for more fish.  You could try PetSmart or Petco if you saw something you really liked that wasn't found at Gerbers, but these fish should definitely be quarantined until you can be sure they're disease-free. 
       
      HAPPY NEW YEAR,gry
       
      Ray
       
              
       
      In a message dated 12/31/2014 4:38:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      I'm sorry I wasn't clear and didn't tell you that I did add hot tap water to the tank. 
      I think the Aquavac is going to be s big help. Even though I only use a 4 & 5 gal bucket to fill, they're really heavy. Even without the use of the suction caused by the water valve, it drained really fast. I got a 50 ft hose so I'll be able to hook up to our utility sink I the basement. When I have to add water for the frogs I pull samples and use the digital thermometer to try to get the water as close as possible to what it is in the tank.  
      My DH is on his way right now to the hardware store to get the right adapter so I'll be able to use next time I have a water change. 
      Keeping the Angels in the emergency tank wouldn't be so bad if it were bigger. It's only a 5 gal hex so it was really crowded in there with the two fish and the whisper like HOB filter I had to rig.  The filter took up a lot of room. I thought about moving the whisper over there but it's a tad deeper do it would crowd the fish even more. Since it's not long term I guess I could move them back and do the fishless cycle. 

      It seems like going through a cycle with two fish will be a bigger pain in the end because if I understand correctly, after the tank cycles I'll have to add new fish really slowly so the filters can catch up to the new amount of stuff in the water. If I add too quickly then I'll screw it all up and possibly have to go through another cycle??

      If that's true then it seems I should add some new fish now, maybe some corys(?) or I should get these fish out and just do what's needed for the fishless cycle.  Let me ask you this.... In the long run which choice will make the aquarium a more stable home. Are there add'l benefits to the fishless cycle?

      After cycling, what is the maximum number of fish that should be in the tank? I don't even know what the correct capacity is but I know I don't want to put too many fish in there and ever get back to the place it was. 

      If I move the fish back to the emergency tank should I try to use the filter media from the whisper? It's dried out now. Can the Bacteria live in a dry environment or would it have needed to remain moist? 

      I'm surprised at adding salt into the the freshwater tank. What is its purpose?  
      If the fish stay in will I do PWCs? Do if I did a 50% water change then I'd add back 1 TBS but if I did s 25% water change I'd add back 1/2 TBS salt? 

      I'm also surprised at adding household ammonia to the tank but I did but some yesterday. It's just so strong that I wouldn't have ever thought it would be safe in an aquarium. 

      I am using Prime but wondered if I should add daily or every other day? I'm sorry I'm such a PITA! I'm not trying to be. Just trying to understand and rebound from the bad info and guidance I had received.  I also need to try to find a good place to buy fish. The only places I know of are Petsmart, Petco, Jacks etc.... I tried looking for privately owned shops but I can't locate any in the Columbus area. I did find a place near Dayton (Gerbers I believe) that is HUGE. They sell both fresh and saltwater, breed diff species and have all kinds of cool stuff but Dayton is 1 1/2 hrs away. Kinda far to drive for fish but st least it's an idea. 

      Ray I really do appreciate your time and all your help! Thank you so much!!


      Sent from my iPhone

      On Dec 31, 2014, at 12:52 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Okay, I'm glad to hear you topped off the tank with some hot tap water.  You need to get a Python though, to make life easier.  I do have to say though, that with your statement of, "I had to refill the tank with the garden hose and being in Ohio, that water was COLD !!," I saw no other choice in understanding this no other way than you having filled your tank with COLD water < g >.  You made no mention of filling it only 3/4 of the way with cold water.  Well at least only the few nitrifiers left on top of the gravel got the worst of it, and 54 o isn't terribly cold.
       
      OH, you got a Marina Aquavac for Christmas.  GREAT; I guess all you'll need now is to get the right adapters for it, to fit your faucets.  That's gonna save you a lot of work.  I don't know how you managed to carry those full buckets of water up until now.  Yes, I did read that you have two Angelfish in your emergency tank, but had forgotten about them needing to go back into the 55.  That's going to make things more difficult as you can't do the fishless-cycle thing with adding household ammonia.  With only these two fish in the tank though, you shouldn't be getting large amounts of ammonia and when it's finally cycled, it won't be cycled for a very large (like 3 pp) amount of ammonia capable of handling the waste of very many more fish.  It will be cycled to handle the waste level of only these two fish, meaning that you'll need to add the rest of your planned fish slowly, a few at a time, to give the cycle time to increase to the capacity to handle the waste from the additional fish. 
       
      I'm almost wondering if it would be feasible to keep the Angels in the emergency tank during the cycling of the (fishless) cycling of the 55, and making 90% PWC's on the emergency tank twice a week.  How large is this emergency tank, and what did you do with the Whisper?  Maybe you could run the partially-cycled Whisper on the emergency tank.  Alright, I didn't read that far ahead.  I see in your next paragraph that you saved the Whisper's media. 
       
      If you're keeping the two Angelfish in the 55, then Yes disregard my instructions on adding household ammonia -- as I mentioned in my first paragraph.  Ideally, a tank should be cycled to be able to convert about 3 ppm of ammonia produced daily by all your fishes (fishes in this case referring to more than one species of fish, as used in scientific literature).  This 3 ppm ammonia level that a tank would be cycled to handle is roughly what a properly stocked tank of fish would produce in one day.  By this, you can see that the ammonia produced only by the two Angelfish will not grow as large of colonies of nitrifying bacteria that will be needed to handle the waste from a full tank of fishes.  By slowly adding the workload on these bacteria with small additions of fishes, you'll gradually increase the cycle's capacity to handle the waste from more fish. 
       
      I see that any nitrate in the 55 right now is the result of the 5% old water allowed to remain.  Your numbers look good and you may also expect the ammonia to drop as a result of having only two fish to add more ammonia even as much of this in one day; at the very most, if it rises, it shouldn't be by very much.  With the nitrite level being at 0.50 ppm, whereas it was zero yesterday, this shows that these particular bacteria are converting the ammonia.  I'm assuming you're using Prime to prevent any ammonia from being toxic, especially at this higher pH).  If not, continue to use it now.  As the nitrite can only be expected to rise from here on until those bacteria start multiplying more, keep those two TBS (Tablespoons) of salt in the water at all times.
       
      I'd like to hope that the 5 ppm of nitrate is the result of bacteria converting some of this nitrite, but I really doubt that, as nice as that would be.  Noticing your your two hardness readings starting to drop.  Note that nothing in the tank can induce the GH to decrease -- it MUST remain at 8 dGH if that's what it was yesterday.  It is what it is and nothing will change that except water evaporation increasing its value.&nb

      (Message over 64 KB, truncated)
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56367 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/5/2015
      Subject: Re: Questions on re-establishing tank
      AOL Email
      Just wanting to assure you, that fish don't have long memories although the older they get the greater their fear will be of the net -- even if they were never netted before.  The younger they are, the less fear they'll show.  Oh, so the Angels are about 2" in diameter (just wanted to get some idea of the bioload they represent).  Incidentally, a much less stressful way of capturing fish is to submerge an open plastic fish bag into the tank and guide the fish into it with a net.  Then quickly close the bag before the fish can turn around and get out.  Just move the bag from one tank to the next after that and if you need to make more room in the tank that the fish is going to, just spill most of the water out of the bag back into the first tank with your hand keeping the bag mostly closed.  A solid clear container will also work, like a glass jar, but anything that's opaque will easily wise the fish up to his being captured.   Another "incidentally,"  it's best you added some gravel to the 10 gallon tank -- not because of it holding bacteria, but because it will put the angels more at ease as opposed to having a bare glass bottom.  On the time it takes for cycling a tank, I thought you already knew that, but since you ask a fishless cycle takes between 4 and 6 weeks -- more often closer to six weeks.  There's where you can add Safe Start (or, Dr. Tim's One and Only -- or a combination of this and the product Dawn prefers).  You can't go wrong that way, and any bacteria supplement will only help speed matters along as long as you supply them with ammonia.  For cycling a tank with fish, it can take even longer as you can't allow large amounts of organic wastes to accumulate.  With needing to do PWC's, even just to keep the nitrate level down once that starts to elevate, this limits the amount of ammonia in the water which the bacteria need to thrive on as you'll need to keep removing much of it.
       
      Okay, the numbers for the 10 gallon look just fine.  Check them each day, although you can leave the GH out as that remains constant.  Add prime each day and if the tank requires a PWC, add the Prime afterwards.  As you're not going to be cycling this tank, do PWC's on it as soon as you see any elevation in the ammonia, which could be every day, but keeping the ammonia at an absolute minimum each day should only require minimum PWC's.  Still, let us know what these numbers are.  As for the numbers in your 55, it's off to a good start although it's unusual to have the nitrite this high so early, when your ammonia is only at 0.25 ppm.  Still, this can't pose any danger when there's no fish in the tank. To establish exactly how much household ammonia will bring the ammonia level up to 4.0 ppm, it would have been preferred to test for it right after time (perhaps 20 minutes) was allowed for it to be thoroughly mixed in with the tank water.  Give us a test result for it now and don't add any more ammonia until I can evaluate it.  Your Angelfish sound very nice.  Let me add, that as each one has their own "personality," they'll all behave slightly different within the confines of Angelfish behavior. 
       
      With having a good number of tanks needing maintenance, one needs to have a system in place to attend them all on a regular basis.  Naturally, time just wouldn't permit attending to all the tanks in a day (or two), so a schedule needs to be determined as to which tanks get their weekly maintenance on which days throughout the week or throughout the month.  Once that's planned out -- and it's always good to draw up a chart, like a calendar, to keep a better check on the scheduling -- it makes things much easier.  As for breeding, if you happen to add some livebearers (Guppies, Swordtails, Platies, etc.) somewhere down the line after getting you 55 squared away, they'll do the breeding for you without your having to do anything yourself.  As any fry not finding shelter will be eaten, you'll need to remove them and place them in their own tank for raising,  This is how hobbyists first develop MTS, and how you may likely develop this syndrome also, after a while.  Other uses for more tanks than would seem needed just for maintaining a community tank or two is for maintaining species that are threatened and/or endangered in the wild.  I'm presently maintaining several tanks of endangered species, sometimes with some of them breeding and I then distribute them to other hobbyists who also maintain some endangered fishes.  Sometimes these fish are threatened in the wild because of their habitat being destroyed.  If they go extinct in the wild, with keeping captive populations in the aquarium, there will be stocks of them to replenish their native environments if and when they can be restored.  There are some Pleco's more ideally suited for the small aquarium and which get to a maximum size of around 6".  They're not "gross," and do a nice job of keeping the tank free of most types of algae.  The common Pleco gets huge however, and should preferable be housed only in very large tanks to prevent from stunting them, which is why I suggested the one we were just discussing might be best moved to a larger aquarium.                     
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/5/2015 2:30:45 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      I know you keep telling me fishless cycling is the best and that its less stressful for the fish but 
      I tell ya Ray, my yellow angel had just started to trust me, she wasn't going to hide when she saw 
      approaching and she was finally eating when I put food in for her.  I feared netting her and moving her 
      to a temp tank would just spook her even more. I don't know if fish hold grudges but hopefully she'll 
      come around again once she gets back in her permanent home. How long does a fishless cycle usually take??  I've only been thru one cycle and that's the one I just finished with my frogs. I was so happy yesterday when the nitrates spiked and the ammonia dropped to zero. I tested the new 10 gal tank
      Tonight. The numbers were Ph 7.6, HPh 8, Ammonia 0, Nitrites 0, Nitrates 5, GH8, KH 6   I'm glad I had almost everything needed to get the 10 gal going ....well with the exception of the tank. That worked out pretty good. That sale came Along at a good time! ;p


      Today, the numbers for the 55 gal tank were:  Ph 7.6, HPh 8.2, Ammonia .25,  Nitrites 2, Nitrates 40, GH 8, KH 4.  I added 3 tsp of ammonia after I tested the water. I'll test in the morning and let you know how the added ammonia affected the numbers. The Angels from tip of nose to end of tail are about 3 inches and 
      from bottom of fin to top of fin about 4 inches. They have those long things that hang down like whiskers... 
      I don't know what they're called but I didn't count those. They're pretty nice sized but not adult size yet.  I live Angels. They're one of my favorites but the 2 big ones I re-homed were kind of aggressive and 
      have me afraid to get anymore. They terrorized the snails and drove the little fish to hide.  They were intimidating and used fin-Nipping to get the fish out of their space.  The bigger one, I believed to be 
      A male was marked like a tiger. He looked like he was velvet, just beautiful. He would "patrol" an area
      While the other one was hanging out and then they'd switch places.   Very odd behavior. 
      I didn't know until very recently that they were part of the Cichlid family. Sounds like you came up with some beauties.

      It's hard to imagine 90 tanks in 1 house. My head would be swimming as I tried to remember what I
      Needed to do with each. Breeding sounds interesting but I have no idea how it's done or what needs to happen.  Sometime when you get pics up, I'd like to see them! Lol!!! Sounds like the new group member
      Has interests similar to yours. He was talking about the big Pleco and I remembered the ones that are up at our Jacks Pets. People have bought them and they get HUGE and the people can't deal with them. They have some that are 2 feet long. They're so gross. I had some pics of them. I'll have to see if I can find them. 
      They gross me out. 

      I





      Sent from my iPad

      On Jan 4, 2015, at 6:56 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Alright Peg, you've made the best choice by choosing fish-less cycling for the 55 gallon.  Yes, as you found out, large water changes can add to your water bill.  Depending on which part of there country you live in, your water can be almost as cheap as air or it can get rather expensive for comparably small quantities of it.  As am example, I'm charged $4.12 for each 100 cubic feet (748 gallons) of water -- plus the monthly $8.85 facilities charge no matter how much or how little water I use.  The "facilities" charge pays for the infrastructure of pipes getting the water to my house, the pumping and filtration of the water at the plant and anything else that the water company passes on to their consumers.  By this you can see that I'd use almost 400 cubic feet of water a week if I did 90% PWC's on all tanks each week, or 1600 cubic feet per month, at a charge of $65.92 each month.  However, 24 years ago I switched to my private well -- of which this water is exceedingly better for maintaining and raising fish -- and it only costs me the price of the electricity use to pump the water; next to nothing.  We had another moderator on this Group up until 5 or 6 years ago, who lived in Louisiana.  His water bill was practically nothing. 
      Anyhow, with cycling the 55 gallon tank, you will do no PWC's until the cycle's complete.  At that time, you'll need to do one large PWC to the extent of removing all of the excess nitrate, at least anything over over 40 ppm and preferably even more -- enough to get the nitrate down to 20 ppm (or even lower) is always nice.  When that time comes, just give us a test reading of what your nitrate level is, and we'll tell you exactly how much water to change.  At this time, you'll add your two Angelfish and three Cory's back into the 55 and any other fishes you also want to include.  
       
      Now, getting to the 10 gallon tank; you will not be cycling this tank but will just be relying on PWC's to keep the water free of contaminants.  Therefore, there's no need to add Safe Start, but keepi4 Prime in there all the time (adding daily) would be helpful.  Yeah, I told you abouit Petco's $1 per gallon sales -- I just didn't know when to expect them.  Can't beat those prices, and they usually have these sales at least 3 times a year.  That you've already added Safe Start to this 10 gallon tank is fine, although the bacteria may starve out because of very minimal amount of ammonia being kept in the water all of the time.  No need to add any more Safe Start to this tank.  Yes, you will need to take daily ammonia tests and change enough water in quantity and in intervals to keep the ammonia level as low as possible.  You already have the idea.  You may report the ammonia test results for this tank here and I'll tell you exactly how much water needs to be changed.  I see you added the Whisper filter to enable any nitrifying bacteria that's able to grow, a chance to do just that by populating the media -- with as little ammonia as we're going to allow.  It appears you added the fish this afternoon, please post the ammonia level for this tank tomorrow.  I don't expect it to have changed very much, but we need to have a figure to work with when taken by surprise.   BTW, while on these fish, about what size are these Angelfish -- their body diameter excluding the fins?  How big are the Cory's?
       
      Now, back to cycling the 55.  No need to change any water, even now.  I'll go over the steps once more.  Let me know if you need anything else explained after I'm done -- if it's not very clear.  First, add 3 drops per gallon of clear (not sudsy) household ammonia to this tank.  As a teaspoon hold about 50 drops, 3 teaspoons of this ammonia for starters.  After giving it some time to thoroughly mix, do an ammonia test.  It should be near 3 ppm, but with this much ammonia it probably will not exceed this.  You may even need to add more, but I won't tell you to do this initially as I don't want your ammonia level too high either.  It's always easier to add but much harder to remove without doing PWC's.  Depending on your ammonia level after allowing it to mix, I'll let you know how much (if any) more you may need to add.  Once you have the ammonia level where we want it -- and I believe I may aim for 4 ppm as an amount to maintain -- you'll need to test the ammonia tomorrow (and every day) and add just enough more ammonia to bring the level back up to 4 ppm if any was used.  If none was used, then test it the next day.  When you see a drop in the ammonia, report it here to be able to know how much more ammonia to add to bring the level back up to where we prefer to maintain it.  After about 10 to 12 days, you should start to see a noticeable increase in the nitrite.  At this time, you may test for both of these products and you'll see the nitrite spike to a certain high level after another 10 to 12 days and then slowly decline after this.  Keep adding just enough more ammonia to keep the level at the predetermined 4 ppm.  Towards to end of the cycle, as it's completing, you'll find that more and more ammonia is being used up every day after adding the make-up amount the previous day.  Very near the end, after adding the amount of ammonia to bring it back up to 4 ppm, the next day's ammonia level will read about 0.5 ppm or even 0.25 ppm.  When the next day's ammonia reading is zero after adding the needed amount of ammonia the previous day, and the next day's nitrite level is also zero, you'll know that there's now a sufficient amount of both types of nitrifying bacteria in your filters to be able to convert 4 ppm of ammonia.  This 4 ppm is usually a bit more, and is in most cases not any less, than a properly stocked tank's fish will produce in one day.  At this time, you can discontinue adding the household ammonia and feel free to add all of the fish you want to include in this tank, knowing that all of their ammonia will be converted to nitrite and then nitrate each day.  Your tank will be fully cycled.  As a cycle being able to convert 4 ppm of ammonia per day may be slightly more than your full stock of fish will produce in one day -- which may only be 3 ppm -- but this only means that your tank will be adequately cycled to handle the waste from all of your fish and if that waste is no more than 3 ppm. the bacteria populations will adjust (reduce) to quantities that can live on 3 ppm rather than 4 ppm -- a portion will starve out in readjusting, but you'll have at least as much bacteria to start with than you need.  The 4 ppm constant ammonia level finishes the nitrite cycling part faster as there's more food to feed on. 
       
      IMPORTANT now, before adding any fish -- this is the time at the end of the cycling period when you must change enough water to remove the excess nitrates which have been building up all along.           
       
      Thanks for the instructions on how to post pics.  I've been talked through this in the past, but never actually been "walked" through this, as with someone being right here next to me showing me exactly what needs to be done and how it's actually done.  I'm keeping your notes handy though, but I'll get to it as time permits -- and as a better browser will allow (I need a 'puter update); thanks.
       
      I think I covered everything on cycling a tank.  I know it's not easy to understand what's happening, but I hope my explanations through these steps makes it easier to be understood. 
       
      Oh yeah, Yes, I ONLY have 90 tanks right now < g >.  And yes, they're all at my house right now -- wall to wall in the basement and rack to rack, isle to isle.  For hobbyists who may be comparatively new to fish keeping, it should be explained that after a while many of us develop "MTS," or . . . Multi-Tank Syndrome.  Some hobbyist go to the extent of building their own fish rooms in their basements and others even go so far as to build separate fish houses in their backyards.  A very good friend of mine and a nationally know aquarist at one time had 150 tanks in operation before he retired,  Now he has about 50 tanks -- he had to cut back (he's 86 years old now).  Another good friend of mine who specialized in Killifish rented out a storefront and maintained 300 tanks.  He'd clean 10 tanks a day and by the end of the month he had them all cleaned and would start all over again in their maintenance.  He had to cut back too, as he took a fall off of a ladder and hurt himself.  Fortunately, he's okay now, but he's getting up there in years also.  What do I do with them?  -- I sell them to the local pet shops, submit them in the various clubs' auctions, distribute and trade them among fellow hobbyists and put them in shows.  There's always a market for home-grown tropical fish.  Numerous tanks are also needed to develop other strains of fish when line-breeding to enhance traits while restricting the genes from becoming too inbred (by mutually carrying the genes via cousins rather than by brothers and sisters).  After several generations of side-by-side breeding for these traits by related (but not too closely) fish carrying the same mutation, these cousins are then bred to each other to enhance the traits.  Once the line breeding produces only prodengy (offspring) displaying the desired new traits, the strain is said to be "fixed."  It takes a lot of tanks to carry and raise all the needed fish for developing new strain, which I enjoy doing.  Twenty five years ago I developed my own Koi Angelfish before I even knew it was in the stage of being developed by others.  My Koi was a prize-winning strain which took 1st in its Class in the American Cichlid Association's Convention back then.  I've since developed other Angelfish strains, such as Black Angels being derived out of a crossing "stripe-less" Angels, i.e., Dark Marbles first bred to be solid and Chocolate Angels first bred to the same characteristic, then crossed to create the solid Black (Most other Black Angels today will show darker stripes showing through the lighter overall black because they're developed from Black Lace, which were developed from the wild Silver/Black Striped Angel.  There are lots of things you can do with having many tanks, the imagination is limitless.
       
      Ray
       
             
       
      In a message dated 1/4/2015 3:59:33 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Funny you should mention the use of a lot of tap water.... Our water bill was doubled this cycle. My
      Husband wasn't thrilled but luckily water is the cheapest commodity. I will probably use the Aquavac for water changes but like you mentioned I'll get the siphon started then turn the tap off.  I used it to drain the tank last time but I didn't have the faucet adapter so my husband got it started. The hose is 50 feet and drains down to the utility sink in the basement. Even without the water going it drained pretty quick.  If I had multiple tanks to take care of I might look into the pump thing but this one tank is enough for me. 

      You ONLY have 90 tanks now? Are all of those tanks at your house now?  If you're not commercially breeding fish what do you do with all of them? I can't even imagine having 90 fish tanks...it's inconceivable to me. It sounds like you really love it and it brings you joy...that's what it's all about. 

      Adding pictures to the Yahoo groups page is easy(waaaayyy easier than taking care of aalllll those fish). 
      Once you log in, go to your Yahoo groups page and select Aquatic Life. Once there you'll see an icon for Photos on the  upper left side and you'll select that. Now you'll see an icon on the right for Albums. 
      If you select that you can create your album and after doing so it'll step you through selecting and uploading your opics to that album. In some groups you can email Pics as a part of your post but I see this group has that feature disabled. It's not a bad idea to disable it, cuts back on crap getting posted that may not be appropriate.

      I read a post on the frog group page that Petco was having the $1 a gallon sale so I went and got a 10 gallon tank to use in place of that 5 gal hex. Luckily I had the a Whisper filter, pump, gravel etc... I added a bottle of Safe Start and Prime and moved the Angels out of the 55 gal tank. Since that tank isn't cycled, I'm assuming it won't get cycled but that I'll do water changes however often they're  needed to keep the ammonia down?  When I do the water changes will I just treat it with Prime? For my wallets sake, I'm hoping I don't have to add a bottle of Safe Start every 2-3 days... 

      I know you've briefly gone over the steps I'll need to take with the household ammonia but would it be possible for you to give me something a little more detailed?  Like, will I be starting with the water and filters as they are now or would t be better to drain it again and start from scratch?  As we proceed, will I still have to do water changes on the 55 gal tank? I guess I still don't fully understand what happens when you do a fishless cycle. 

      Now that the tank will cycle w/o fish how is it decided how many fish can go in after the cycle finishes and when do they go in? When will the Angels go back in?





      On Jan 3, 2015, at 6:39 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:ô

       

      Re
      Hi Peg,
       
      Using 5 gallon buckets is the hard way to do water changes, unless you're really strong enough so that it doesn't bother you.  It's also very time consuming and some beginner hobbyists just give up on it at this point, feeling that it's too much work to have to do week after week.  Many of us, including myself, made water changes with buckets when we were just starting out, and when we were much younger < g >.  I'm glad for your sake that you got that AquaVac so that you can get away from carrying those buckets.  You're going to find though, that drawing water out of the tank with that water changer will use a lot of tap water.  One way to avoid that if possible is to start it running like that and then turn the faucet off and just let it syphon out the rest of the way, even though it will take longer.  By now, many of us use water pumps to remove the aquarium water and sometimes one to refill the tank, depending on the water change set-up we use.  On multiple tank set ups, one set of hoses and a pump is used to draw down the water while the previous tank is being filled, so that no time is wasted; it goes quite quickly.  All of the on-line aquarium supply houses carry a selection of water pumps of all sizes, or one can pick up a utility pump at Home Depot or Loews. 
       
      Trying to make this next long-story short, my biggest tanks now are a number of 125 gallon aquariums, but I had tanks up to 260 gallons when I needed them.  Besides these 125's I have several 100 gallon tanks, half a dozen 75 gallon tank, a dozen 50 gallon tanks, a few 55's, etc., etc.  I've cut way back from when I was commercially breeding fish and only have about 90 tanks right now (with a total volume of 3200 gallons).  Of course, I still breed fish right now as I thoroughly enjoy it.  At one time, a good number of years ago, I had a tropical fish store with a friend/partner of mine.  When I sold my half off to my partner, I went into importing fish, from Germany and Africa (Lake Malawi, Lake Victoria and Lake Tanganyika) and distributed them throughout the country (and as far as Australia).  It was never my actual profession as I was a printer, but I guess you could call it a second profession.  Probably spent as much time (or more) doing this as doing anything else.  When I retired from printing, I managed one of the largest Water Garden Suppliers dealing in ponds, their fish and their many plants, specializing in Water Lilies; each day was fun as it was totally enjoyable -- it certainly wasn't work.    Sorry, I don't have any pics in any folders, as no one ever taught me how to put photos up on line.  It's got to be really easy as everyone is doing it, but unless a person does this at least once -- by being walked through it -- it's all Greek, including all the internet terms.      
       
      I see you've found that the smaller the tank is, the harder it is to take care of.  Ammonia builds up a lot faster in a 5 gallon tank as compared to tank double that size.  As you don't yet know how much your fish will eat in 5 minutes, just start with a small amount -- more than just a certain number of flakes you can count on two hands.  If there's food left over after five minutes, cut back on the amount of food next time -- and the time after that -- until you get the idea of the proper amount.  A small aquarium fish's stomach might be the size of a garden pea; it doesn't  take much to satisfy the fish.  You'll never get to learn how much to feed if you keep giving more and waiting for the fish to eat that, and then give it more yet -- until the fish won't eat anymore.  You should never feed fish so much that they won't eat any more.  Fish don't know when to stop eating as they don't know that they'll be fed again the next day.  They'll keep eating as much as they can, while the opportunity presents itself.  It's not good for the fish to feed them this much.  It can even be a cause for a condition called "Bloat," which can ocassionally be fatal, depending on its actual cause.. 
       
      Yes, it can be a money pit if you let it.  Now that you have all the basic necessities, it shouldn't cost very much at all from here on in.  The major additions now would be more fish and maybe plants if you feel up to them.  None of this needs to (nor should) be done all at once anyway.  When the water level drops in the tank due to evaporation, none of the salt is lost.  Yes, you may replace water lost due to evaporation .  When adding new water to top the tank off because of this evaporation, you don't add any more salt.  The water parameters should tell you when to start doing PWC's, especially the nitrite which you don't want to allow to get too high, but even the ammonia should not be much above 4.0 ppm (3.0 ppm is better, although the cycle will take longer).  Too much of a drop in your KH will also tell you it's time to make a PWC.  You can start vacuuming after the second week -- and then, only do half the tank at a time, doing the other half the next week. 
       
      Ray  
       
        
      In a message dated 1/3/2015 4:46:09 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hey Ray!!
      My hubby picked-up the correct hose adapter and it's now on my utility sink waiting for me to
      take it for another spin. I put together a bin of things I may need when I go to use it so I don't have to 
      be running around looking for stuff while it's running or running around trying to find things so I can get started. I included a bowl and instant read digital thermometer so I could get as close as possible to the tank temp.  Carrying all those water buckets really took it out of me.   It wasn't so bad filling that little 5 gal bucket to take care of the 5 gal tank but the 55 wore me out. I can't even imagine how big your tanks are or how many you have. Not too long ago you mentioned breeding or something. Is that your profession?  How many tanks and how many did you own and do you own now?? I looked in the pics area thinking there might be some of all your tanks but there are so many folders that I never found it. 

      The 5 gallon hex was the original home for my African Dwarf Frogs. Even though they were teeny the tank was too small.  My first frog didn't make it and it was after that when I looked for someone to help guide me and found Suzy and Alyce. The next two frogs did better but Suzy really kept on me about moving them to a 10 gal aquarium. She knew that they'd just keep doing poorly in that 5 gal. 
      I had to wait until I had the funds to buy everything I needed and after I did they got moved but I still lost my boy frog.  My little girl Fannie is the only female I have now. She lives with the two boys in the 10 gal. Suzy and Alyce are now guiding me through the cycling of the tank.  With the 5 gal I had to do 50% water changes every other day just to fight the ammonia build up. 

      Losing the frogs in that tank and knowing how hard it was to keep things alive in it were my biggest reason to refrain from putting the Angels in there. They are way bigger than the frogs and I know how
      S
      You said you processed a refund but will you re-charge me when the pkg arrives??

      Sent from my iPhone't go hide. That same night I put food in the feeding ring and he ate with me standing there watching him. I hated the thought of netting him, moving him and starting all over with him traumatized again. He's just trusting me and I don't want to take the chance he'll never get past that. The other one isn't as timid or wasn't as traumatized, just this one guy. 

      Having these two alone in this tank has helped me learn about feeding them. You told me to only feed what they can eat in 5 minutes but that's hard to gauge when I have no experience or no reference point, nothing to look at to tell me ok they're good with 10 pieces of flake food but 15 is too many etc... I've been feeding them by putting 3-4 pieces into the feeding ring. After they get eaten I'll add a few more and I do this until they stop eating. After a few minutes I've been scooping out the leftovers with a brine shrimp net. 

      I haven't started vacuuming the gravel yet or doing any water changes. I wasn't quite sure when those activities should start.  After dinner I'm going to get three Cory cats to clean up the bottom. I'm not planning to add anything else until after the cycle.  When it is time to get more,  I want to keep only non-aggressive, community fish. I had luck with fish coming from Petsmart so I will prob stay with them. I do want to set up a 19 gal quarantine tanks but I've got to hold off on spending for awhile. By the time the tank gets cycled I should be able to set it up but even then it'll have to be cycled too won't it?  Fish keeping has been an expensive hobby. My husband told me last night how much I've spent 
      In it in the last month and a half and my jaw hit the floor. He feels two tanks in our living room are enough. The funds I've used to get them going took a bite from savings.  His exact words "these aquariums are a money pit."  For the next 6-8 weeks I'll concentrate on getting through the cycle and just learning to take care of and clean up after the 5 fish.  I hope 5 will be a good number to cycle with. I know adding afterwards will be slow but that's what I need to do to co-exist with husband and family. 

      I added the bottle of Safe Start at the beginning and I've been adding Prime every day. When should I begin vacuuming gravel and doing water changes? Should I plan to replace filters during or after the cycle?  

      Do I replace water in the tank as its evaporated or is this only done at the water change so the salt can be adjusted accordingly? I understand the water/salt ratio I just didn't know about replacing the evaporated water. 



      On Dec 31, 2014, at 10:44 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      No biggie on the hot water miscommunication.  As you saw, I included a big Grin at the need of my statement.  You just forgot to add that little detail (LOL).  That Aquavac is going to save you a humongous amount of work; those 5 gallon buckets weigh nearly 40 pounds when nearly full.  I'd call that heavy! 
       pm
      I see what you mean about the emergency tank being only a 5 gallon hex.  Not really meant for any fish long-term, although holding a fish or two in quarantine requires a full month to be assured they're disease-free.  BTW, I hope you're aware that such emergency tanks' main purpose -- besides being used as a hospital tank -- is to use them to isolate and observe new fish for a month before adding them to your main tank so that you don't spread any possible disease to your other fish.  As 5 gallons is small, you might watch for PetSmart's periodic $1 per gallon tank sales.  You could pick up a 10 gallon tank for 10 Bucks at those times. 
       
      Looks like the Whisper is entirely out of the question for this small tank -- and the dried out media no longer contains live nitrifiers.  As for holding the Angels in this hex tank, cycling the 55 would take up to 6 weeks so this would be long-term, but it would be much less stressful on the fish, not subjecting them to abnormal ammonia levels.  Even ammonium is toxic, albeit much less so than ammonia.  IF you were to cycle the tank with fish in it, it would be much more of a benefit in using more for this purpose than less, as the finished cycle would be able to convert a larger amount of ammonia.  BUT, as long as we now have this fish-less cycling option, we NEVER advocate cycling a tank with fish if it can be avoided.  It is easier, and surer, to do a fish-less cycle -- and no stress to the fish.
       
      You do understand it correctly.  After the tank is cycled with the two Angelfish, you'll need add any other fish slowly so that the filter can catch up with handling the increased load.  Yes also, on cycling the tank with fish being a big pain whthe sun don't shine -- and with inadequate results.  The benefits of a fish-less cycle are, that you're not subjecting the fish to any stress and you can have the cycles' end result being capable of converting any amount of ammonia that you anticipate your eventual bioload will be when finally adding your fish.  An example, you could cycle the tank so that the nitrifiers will convert 10 ppm daily and if your eventual load of fish only produce 3 ppm of ammonia daily the worst scenario is that a portion of the bacteria will die off until the remainder can subsist on only 3 ppm produced daily.  You can (and should) add all of your fish at the time your tank is fully cycled.  When cycling with fish, it's a constant catch-up game in needing to slowly increase the cycle.  
       
      Getting back to holding the Angels in the 5 gallon tank, I'm picturing their body size (without fins) as being about 2" in diameter -- correct me if I'm wrong.  Changing out 90% of their water each time that's needed doesn't need to be stressful.  If doing this, with being sure the Aquavac is surely attached to this tank, just run the water more slowly -- and add the needed amount of Prime just before you turn the faucets on.  You need to be sure you can control the temperature properly though.  If you can't, have the Aquavac fill the 5 gallon bucket that you'd keep along side the 5 gallon tank and then just pour it in slowly from there after making sure the temperature's correct.  No carrying the bucket any long distance.  Normally, I don't suggest doing 90% PWC's, as for one thing they're not generally needed. but being a strong proponent of the notion that you can never change too much water (the more fresh water the fish are living in, the better they'll thrive), I've been doing 90% PWC's on all the tanks in my hatchery for about 50 years and 40% to 50% PWC's for the preceding 17 years -- and I've had about 3200 gallons in my tanks for the last 25 years (I cut back < g >).  
       
      As for the maximum fish load for your tank, it's not just the number of your fish this depends on but it's also their size (their full eventual size when they reach maturity) -- as they need the space to eventually grow to their maximum size.  You can't go by just the size they are now as that won't allow them room to grow.  There's a rule of thumb estimate that works fairly well for fish up to 3" (when full grown) and which works better for slenderer fish (like Tetras as an example) rather than more heavily-bodied fish (like Platies as an example), and that's to consider 1" per gallon.  While you want a nicely filled tank of fish though, you should never max it out with fish but always leave some room for contingencies -- like power outages during which you have no surface circulation to exchanges gases (carbon dioxide and oxygen).  You could have five 1 1/2" Cardinal Tetras, five 2" Zebra Danios, four 2 1/2" Cory's, two 5" Angelfish,  five 1 3/4" Rasboras and three 2 3/4" Swordtails as one example.  This would total to about 50" of fish.  You need to learn how not to overfeed though.  As I stated a while back, feed just enough that they'll clean up in 5 minutes. 
       
      Ordinarily, salt is not needed in the freshwater aquarium, even though it does have purposes at specific times and is useful in helping treat some diseases.  Some hobbyists use a token amount of 1 TBL of salt per five gallons -- which is not necessary in the slightest.  When cycling a tank with fish, and with subjecting them to possible high levels of ammonia and/or nitrite, even a much smaller amount of salt -- like a pinch per gallon (or less) -- will prevent both ammonia poisoning and nitrite poisoning.  Even the very small amount of 1 TBL of salt per about 25 gallons I recommended can really be reduced to 1 TBL for the whole 55 gallons, although I wanted to ensure the fish would be "doubly safe" (LOL).  Still, 1 TBL of salt per 25 gallons (actually, per 27.5 gallons) is minute.  You only need to be concerned with salt if you're having fish in the 55.  The same goes for Prime, which would be safer to add every day rather than every other day.  Yes, you have that correct, in the amount of salt you need to add back after these PWC amounts. 
       
      If fish-less cycling, and maintaining a 3 ppm level of ammonia requiring the addition of 3 to 4 drops per gallon, you only need to add 3 (or 4) teaspoons of household ammonia to the tank (drops can vary in size).  A teaspoon holds 50 drops.  As it needs to be maintained there until it reaches a point where all 3 ppm will be consumed by the following day, if for instance the ammonia drops to 2 ppm on the following day, you just need to add back about 1 teaspoon of household ammonia to bring it back up to 3 ppm. 
       
      You're not a pain as long as you can put this stuff to good use.  I don't mind giving some advice if it helps you succeed.  That's part of why I moderate here, to help hobbyists like you become successful at keeping fish.  It sounds like it would pay to drive to Gerbers when you're ready for more fish.  You could try PetSmart or Petco if you saw something you really liked that wasn't found at Gerbers, but these fish should definitely be quarantined unti

      (Message over 64 KB, truncated)
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56368 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 1/5/2015
      Subject: Re: Questions on re-establishing tank
      I checked the ammonia in the 55 gal this morning. It's now at "1".  I have not added any
      Additional ammonia since the initial 3 tsp. 

      Peg
      Soon Opening: Hoopin' It Up Designs
                                Custom Embroidery & Embellishments

      On Jan 5, 2015, at 8:41 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Just wanting to assure you, that fish don't have long memories although the older they get the greater their fear will be of the net -- even if they were never netted before.  The younger they are, the less fear they'll show.  Oh, so the Angels are about 2" in diameter (just wanted to get some idea of the bioload they represent).  Incidentally, a much less stressful way of capturing fish is to submerge an open plastic fish bag into the tank and guide the fish into it with a net.  Then quickly close the bag before the fish can turn around and get out.  Just move the bag from one tank to the next after that and if you need to make more room in the tank that the fish is going to, just spill most of the water out of the bag back into the first tank with your hand keeping the bag mostly closed.  A solid clear container will also work, like a glass jar, but anything that's opaque will easily wise the fish up to his being captured.   Another "incidentally,"  it's best you added some gravel to the 10 gallon tank -- not because of it holding bacteria, but because it will put the angels more at ease as opposed to having a bare glass bottom.  On the time it takes for cycling a tank, I thought you already knew that, but since you ask a fishless cycle takes between 4 and 6 weeks -- more often closer to six weeks.  There's where you can add Safe Start (or, Dr. Tim's One and Only -- or a combination of this and the product Dawn prefers).  You can't go wrong that way, and any bacteria supplement will only help speed matters along as long as you supply them with ammonia.  For cycling a tank with fish, it can take even longer as you can't allow large amounts of organic wastes to accumulate.  With needing to do PWC's, even just to keep the nitrate level down once that starts to elevate, this limits the amount of ammonia in the water which the bacteria need to thrive on as you'll need to keep removing much of it.
       
      Okay, the numbers for the 10 gallon look just fine.  Check them each day, although you can leave the GH out as that remains constant.  Add prime each day and if the tank requires a PWC, add the Prime afterwards.  As you're not going to be cycling this tank, do PWC's on it as soon as you see any elevation in the ammonia, which could be every day, but keeping the ammonia at an absolute minimum each day should only require minimum PWC's.  Still, let us know what these numbers are.  As for the numbers in your 55, it's off to a good start although it's unusual to have the nitrite this high so early, when your ammonia is only at 0.25 ppm.  Still, this can't pose any danger when there's sn no fish in the tank. To establish exactly how much household ammonia will bring the ammonia level up to 4.0 ppm, it would have been preferred to test for it right after time (perhaps 20 minutes) was allowed for it to be thoroughly mixed in with the tank water.  Give us a test result for it now and don't add any more ammonia until I can evaluate it.  Your Angelfish sound very nice.  Let me add, that as each one has their own "personality," they'll all behave slightly different within the confines of Angelfish behavior. 
       
      With having a good number of tanks needing maintenance, one needs to have a system in place to attend them all on a regular basis.  Naturally, time just wouldn't permit attending to all the tanks in a day (or two), so a schedule needs to be determined as to which tanks get their weekly maintenance on which days throughout the week or throughout the month.  Once that's planned out -- and it's always good to draw up a chart, like a calendar, to keep a better check on the scheduling -- it makes things much easier.  As for breeding, if you happen to add some livebearers (Guppies, Swordtails, Platies, etc.) somewhere down the line after getting you 55 squared away, they'll do the breeding for you without your having to do anything yourself.  As any fry not finding shelter will be eaten, you'll need to remove them and place them in their own tank for raising,  This is how hobbyists first develop MTS, and how you may likely develop this syndrome also, after a while.  Other uses for more tanks than would seem needed just for maintaining a community tank or two is for maintaining species that are threatened and/or endangered in the wild.  I'm presently maintaining several tanks of endangered species, sometimes with some of them breeding and I then distribute them to other hobbyists who also maintain some endangered fishes.  Sometimes these fish are threatened in the wild because of their habitat being destroyed.  If they go extinct in the wild, with keeping captive populations in the aquarium, there will be stocks of them to replenish their native environments if and when they can be restored.  There are some Pleco's more ideally suited for the small aquarium and which get to a maximum size of around 6".  They're not "gross," and do a nice job of keeping the tank free of most types of algae.  The common Pleco gets huge however, and should preferable be housed only in very large tanks to prevent from stunting them, which is why I suggested the one we were just discussing might be best moved to a larger aquarium.                     
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/5/2015 2:30:45 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      I know you keep telling me fishless cycling is the best and that its less stressful for the fish but 
      I tell ya Ray, my yellow angel had just started to trust me, she wasn't going to hide when she saw 
      approaching and she was finally eating when I put food in for her.  I feared netting her and moving her 
      to a temp tank would just spook her even more. I don't know if fish hold grudges but hopefully she'll 
      come around again once she gets back in her permanent home. How long does a fishless cycle usually take??  I've only been thru one cycle and that's the one I just finished with my frogs. I was so happy yesterday when the nitrates spiked and the ammonia dropped to zero. I tested the new 10 gal tank
      Tonight. The numbers were Ph 7.6, HPh 8, Ammonia 0, Nitrites 0, Nitrates 5, GH8, KH 6   I'm glad I had almost everything needed to get the 10 gal going ....well with the exception of the tank. That worked out pretty good. That sale came Along at a good time! ;p


      Today, the numbers for the 55 gal tank were:  Ph 7.6, HPh 8.2, Ammonia .25,  Nitrites 2, Nitrates 40, GH 8, KH 4.  I added 3 tsp of ammonia after I tested the water. I'll test in the morning and let you know how the added ammonia affected the numbers. The Angels from tip of nose to end of tail are about 3 inches and 
      from bottom of fin to top of fin about 4 inches. They have those long things that hang down like whiskers... 
      I don't know what they're called but I didn't count those. They're pretty nice sized but not adult size yet.  I live Angels. They're one of my favorites but the 2 big ones I re-homed were kind of aggressive and 
      have me afraid to get anymore. They terrorized the snails and drove the little fish to hide.  They were intimidating and used fin-Nipping to get the fish out of their space.  The bigger one, I believed to be 
      A male was marked like a tiger. He looked like he was velvet, just beautiful. He would "patrol" an area
      While the other one was hanging out and then they'd switch places.   Very odd behavior. 
      I didn't know until very recently that they were part of the Cichlid family. Sounds like you came up with some beauties.

      It's hard to imagine 90 tanks in 1 house. My head would be swimming as I tried to remember what I
      Needed to do with each. Breeding sounds interesting but I have no idea how it's done or what needs to happen.  Sometime when you get pics up, I'd like to see them! Lol!!! Sounds like the new group member
      Has interests similar to yours. He was talking about the big Pleco and I remembered the ones that are up at our Jacks Pets. People have bought them and they get HUGE and the people can't deal with them. They have some that are 2 feet long. They're so gross. I had some pics of them. I'll have to see if I can find them. 
      They gross me out. 

      I





      Sent from my iPad

      On Jan 4, 2015, at 6:56 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Alright Peg, you've made the best choice by choosing fish-less cycling for the 55 gallon.  Yes, as you found out, large water changes can add to your water bill.  Depending on which part of there country you live in, your water can be almost as cheap as air or it can get rather expensive for comparably small quantities of it.  As am example, I'm charged $4.12 for each 100 cubic feet (748 gallons) of water -- plus the monthly $8.85 facilities charge no matter how much or how little water I use.  The "facilities" charge pays for the infrastructure of pipes getting the water to my house, the pumping and filtration of the water at the plant and anything else that the water company passes on to their consumers.  By this you can see that I'd use almost 400 cubic feet of water a week if I did 90% PWC's on all tanks each week, or 1600 cubic feet per month, at a charge of $65.92 each month.  However, 24 years ago I switched to my private well -- of which this water is exceedingly better for maintaining and raising fish -- and it only costs me the price of the electricity use to pump the water; next to nothing.  We had another moderator on this Group up until 5 or 6 years ago, who lived in Louisiana.  His water bill was practically nothing. 
      Anyhow, with cycling the 55 gallon tank, you will do no PWC's until the cycle's complete.  At that time, you'll need to do one large PWC to the extent of removing all of the excess nitrate, at least anything over over 40 ppm and preferably even more -- enough to get the nitrate down to 20 ppm (or even lower) is always nice.  When that time comes, just give us a test reading of what your nitrate level is, and we'll tell you exactly how much water to change.  At this time, you'll add your two Angelfish and three Cory's back into the 55 and any other fishes you also want to include.  
       
      Now, getting to the 10 gallon tank; you will not be cycling this tank but will just be relying on PWC's to keep the water free of contaminants.  Therefore, there's no need to add Safe Start, but keepi4 Prime in there all the time (adding daily) would be helpful.  Yeah, I told you abouit Petco's $1 per gallon sales -- I just didn't know when to expect them.  Can't beat those prices, and they usually have these sales at least 3 times a year.  That you've already added Safe Start to this 10 gallon tank is fine, although the bacteria may starve out because of very minimal amount of ammonia being kept in the water all of the time.  No need to add any more Safe Start to this tank.  Yes, you will need to take daily ammonia tests and change enough water in quantity and in intervals to keep the ammonia level as low as possible.  You already have the idea.  You may report the ammonia test results for this tank here and I'll tell you exactly how much water needs to be changed.  I see you added the Whisper filter to enable any nitrifying bacteria that's able to grow, a chance to do just that by populating the media -- with as little ammonia as we're going to allow.  It appears you added the fish this afternoon, please post the ammonia level for this tank tomorrow.  I don't expect it to have changed very much, but we need to have a figure to work with when taken by surprise.   BTW, while on these fish, about what size are these Angelfish -- their body diameter excluding the fins?  How big are the Cory's?
       
      Now, back to cycling the 55.  No need to change any water, even now.  I'll go over the steps once more.  Let me know if you need anything else explained after I'm done -- if it's not very clear.  First, add 3 drops per gallon of clear (not sudsy) household ammonia to this tank.  As a teaspoon hold about 50 drops, 3 teaspoons of this ammonia for starters.  After giving it some time to thoroughly mix, do an ammonia test.  It should be near 3 ppm, but with this much ammonia it probably will not exceed this.  You may even need to add more, but I won't tell you to do this initially as I don't want your ammonia level too high either.  It's always easier to add but much harder to remove without doing PWC's.  Depending on your ammonia level after allowing it to mix, I'll let you know how much (if any) more you may need to add.  Once you have the ammonia level where we want it -- and I believe I may aim for 4 ppm as an amount to maintain -- you'll need to test the ammonia tomorrow (and every day) and add just enough more ammonia to bring the level back up to 4 ppm if any was used.  If none was used, then test it the next day.  When you see a drop in the ammonia, report it here to be able to know how much more ammonia to add to bring the level back up to where we prefer to maintain it.  After about 10 to 12 days, you should start to see a noticeable increase in the nitrite.  At this time, you may test for both of these products and you'll see the nitrite spike to a certain high level after another 10 to 12 days and then slowly decline after this.  Keep adding just enough more ammonia to keep the level at the predetermined 4 ppm.  Towards to end of the cycle, as it's completing, you'll find that more and more ammonia is being used up every day after adding the make-up amount the previous day.  Very near the end, after adding the amount of ammonia to bring it back up to 4 ppm, the next day's ammonia level will read about 0.5 ppm or even 0.25 ppm.  When the next day's ammonia reading is zero after adding the needed amount of ammonia the previous day, and the next day's nitrite level is also zero, you'll know that there's now a sufficient amount of both types of nitrifying bacteria in your filters to be able to convert 4 ppm of ammonia.  This 4 ppm is usually a bit more, and is in most cases not any less, than a properly stocked tank's fish will produce in one day.  At this time, you can discontinue adding the household ammonia and feel free to add all of the fish you want to include in this tank, knowing that all of their ammonia will be converted to nitrite and then nitrate each day.  Your tank will be fully cycled.  As a cycle being able to convert 4 ppm of ammonia per day may be slightly more than your full stock of fish will produce in one day -- which may only be 3 ppm -- but this only means that your tank will be adequately cycled to handle the waste from all of your fish and if that waste is no more than 3 ppm. the bacteria populations will adjust (reduce) to quantities that can live on 3 ppm rather than 4 ppm -- a portion will starve out in readjusting, but you'll have at least as much bacteria to start with than you need.  The 4 ppm constant ammonia level finishes the nitrite cycling part faster as there's more food to feed on. 
       
      IMPORTANT now, before adding any fish -- this is the time at the end of the cycling period when you must change enough water to remove the excess nitrates which have been building up all along.           
       
      Thanks for the instructions on how to post pics.  I've been talked through this in the past, but never actually been "walked" through this, as with someone being right here next to me showing me exactly what needs to be done and how it's actually done.  I'm keeping your notes handy though, but I'll get to it as time permits -- and as a better browser will allow (I need a 'puter update); thanks.
       
      I think I covered everything on cycling a tank.  I know it's not easy to understand what's happening, but I hope my explanations through these steps makes it easier to be understood. 
       
      Oh yeah, Yes, I ONLY have 90 tanks right now < g >.  And yes, they're all at my house right now -- wall to wall in the basement and rack to rack, isle to isle.  For hobbyists who may be comparatively new to fish keeping, it should be explained that after a while many of us develop "MTS," or . . . Multi-Tank Syndrome.  Some hobbyist go to the extent of building their own fish rooms in their basements and others even go so far as to build separate fish houses in their backyards.  A very good friend of mine and a nationally know aquarist at one time had 150 tanks in operation before he retired,  Now he has about 50 tanks -- he had to cut back (he's 86 years old now).  Another good friend of mine who specialized in Killifish rented out a storefront and maintained 300 tanks.  He'd clean 10 tanks a day and by the end of the month he had them all cleaned and would start all over again in their maintenance.  He had to cut back too, as he took a fall off of a ladder and hurt himself.  Fortunately, he's okay now, but he's getting up there in years also.  What do I do with them?  -- I sell them to the local pet shops, submit them in the various clubs' auctions, distribute and trade them among fellow hobbyists and put them in shows.  There's always a market for home-grown tropical fish.  Numerous tanks are also needed to develop other strains of fish when line-breeding to enhance traits while restricting the genes from becoming too inbred (by mutually carrying the genes via cousins rather than by brothers and sisters).  After several generations of side-by-side breeding for these traits by related (but not too closely) fish carrying the same mutation, these cousins are then bred to each other to enhance the traits.  Once the line breeding produces only prodengy (offspring) displaying the desired new traits, the strain is said to be "fixed."  It takes a lot of tanks to carry and raise all the needed fish for developing new strain, which I enjoy doing.  Twenty five years ago I developed my own Koi Angelfish before I even knew it was in the stage of being developed by others.  My Koi was a prize-winning strain which took 1st in its Class in the American Cichlid Association's Convention back then.  I've since developed other Angelfish strains, such as Black Angels being derived out of a crossing "stripe-less" Angels, i.e., Dark Marbles first bred to be solid and Chocolate Angels first bred to the same characteristic, then crossed to create the solid Black (Most other Black Angels today will show darker stripes showing through the lighter overall black because they're developed from Black Lace, which were developed from the wild Silver/Black Striped Angel.  There are lots of things you can do with having many tanks, the imagination is limitless.
       
      Ray
       
             
       
      In a message dated 1/4/2015 3:59:33 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Funny you should mention the use of a lot of tap water.... Our water bill was doubled this cycle. My
      Husband wasn't thrilled but luckily water is the cheapest commodity. I will probably use the Aquavac for water changes but like you mentioned I'll get the siphon started then turn the tap off.  I used it to drain the tank last time but I didn't have the faucet adapter so my husband got it started. The hose is 50 feet and drains down to the utility sink in the basement. Even without the water going it drained pretty quick.  If I had multiple tanks to take care of I might look into the pump thing but this one tank is enough for me. 

      You ONLY have 90 tanks now? Are all of those tanks at your house now?  If you're not commercially breeding fish what do you do with all of them? I can't even imagine having 90 fish tanks...it's inconceivable to me. It sounds like you really love it and it brings you joy...that's what it's all about. 

      Adding pictures to the Yahoo groups page is easy(waaaayyy easier than taking care of aalllll those fish). 
      Once you log in, go to your Yahoo groups page and select Aquatic Life. Once there you'll see an icon for Photos on the  upper left side and you'll select that. Now you'll see an icon on the right for Albums. 
      If you select that you can create your album and after doing so it'll step you through selecting and uploading your opics to that album. In some groups you can email Pics as a part of your post but I see this group has that feature disabled. It's not a bad idea to disable it, cuts back on crap getting posted that may not be appropriate.

      I read a post on the frog group page that Petco was having the $1 a gallon sale so I went and got a 10 gallon tank to use in place of that 5 gal hex. Luckily I had the a Whisper filter, pump, gravel etc... I added a bottle of Safe Start and Prime and moved the Angels out of the 55 gal tank. Since that tank isn't cycled, I'm assuming it won't get cycled but that I'll do water changes however often they're  needed to keep the ammonia down?  When I do the water changes will I just treat it with Prime? For my wallets sake, I'm hoping I don't have to add a bottle of Safe Start every 2-3 days... 

      I know you've briefly gone over the steps I'll need to take with the household ammonia but would it be possible for you to give me something a little more detailed?  Like, will I be starting with the water and filters as they are now or would t be better to drain it again and start from scratch?  As we proceed, will I still have to do water changes on the 55 gal tank? I guess I still don't fully understand what happens when you do a fishless cycle. 

      Now that the tank will cycle w/o fish how is it decided how many fish can go in after the cycle finishes and when do they go in? When will the Angels go back in?





      On Jan 3, 2015, at 6:39 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:ô

       

      Re
      Hi Peg,
       
      Using 5 gallon buckets is the hard way to do water changes, unless you're really strong enough so that it doesn't bother you.  It's also very time consuming and some beginner hobbyists just give up on it at this point, feeling that it's too much work to have to do week after week.  Many of us, including myself, made water changes with buckets when we were just starting out, and when we were much younger < g >.  I'm glad for your sake that you got that AquaVac so that you can get away from carrying those buckets.  You're going to find though, that drawing water out of the tank with that water changer will use a lot of tap water.  One way to avoid that if possible is to start it running like that and then turn the faucet off and just let it syphon out the rest of the way, even though it will take longer.  By now, many of us use water pumps to remove the aquarium water and sometimes one to refill the tank, depending on the water change set-up we use.  On multiple tank set ups, one set of hoses and a pump is used to draw down the water while the previous tank is being filled, so that no time is wasted; it goes quite quickly.  All of the on-line aquarium supply houses carry a selection of water pumps of all sizes, or one can pick up a utility pump at Home Depot or Loews. 
       
      Trying to make this next long-story short, my biggest tanks now are a number of 125 gallon aquariums, but I had tanks up to 260 gallons when I needed them.  Besides these 125's I have several 100 gallon tanks, half a dozen 75 gallon tank, a dozen 50 gallon tanks, a few 55's, etc., etc.  I've cut way back from when I was commercially breeding fish and only have about 90 tanks right now (with a total volume of 3200 gallons).  Of course, I still breed fish right now as I thoroughly enjoy it.  At one time, a good number of years ago, I had a tropical fish store with a friend/partner of mine.  When I sold my half off to my partner, I went into importing fish, from Germany and Africa (Lake Malawi, Lake Victoria and Lake Tanganyika) and distributed them throughout the country (and as far as Australia).  It was never my actual profession as I was a printer, but I guess you could call it a second profession.  Probably spent as much time (or more) doing this as doing anything else.  When I retired from printing, I managed one of the largest Water Garden Suppliers dealing in ponds, their fish and their many plants, specializing in Water Lilies; each day was fun as it was totally enjoyable -- it certainly wasn't work.    Sorry, I don't have any pics in any folders, as no one ever taught me how to put photos up on line.  It's got to be really easy as everyone is doing it, but unless a person does this at least once -- by being walked through it -- it's all Greek, including all the internet terms.      
       
      I see you've found that the smaller the tank is, the harder it is to take care of.  Ammonia builds up a lot faster in a 5 gallon tank as compared to tank double that size.  As you don't yet know how much your fish will eat in 5 minutes, just start with a small amount -- more than just a certain number of flakes you can count on two hands.  If there's food left over after five minutes, cut back on the amount of food next time -- and the time after that -- until you get the idea of the proper amount.  A small aquarium fish's stomach might be the size of a garden pea; it doesn't  take much to satisfy the fish.  You'll never get to learn how much to feed if you keep giving more and waiting for the fish to eat that, and then give it more yet -- until the fish won't eat anymore.  You should never feed fish so much that they won't eat any more.  Fish don't know when to stop eating as they don't know that they'll be fed again the next day.  They'll keep eating as much as they can, while the opportunity presents itself.  It's not good for the fish to feed them this much.  It can even be a cause for a condition called "Bloat," which can ocassionally be fatal, depending on its actual cause.. 
       
      Yes, it can be a money pit if you let it.  Now that you have all the basic necessities, it shouldn't cost very much at all from here on in.  The major additions now would be more fish and maybe plants if you feel up to them.  None of this needs to (nor should) be done all at once anyway.  When the water level drops in the tank due to evaporation, none of the salt is lost.  Yes, you may replace water lost due to evaporation .  When adding new water to top the tank off because of this evaporation, you don't add any more salt.  The water parameters should tell you when to start doing PWC's, especially the nitrite which you don't want to allow to get too high, but even the ammonia should not be much above 4.0 ppm (3.0 ppm is better, although the cycle will take longer).  Too much of a drop in your KH will also tell you it's time to make a PWC.  You can start vacuuming after the second week -- and then, only do half the tank at a time, doing the other half the next week. 
       
      Ray  
       
        
      In a message dated 1/3/2015 4:46:09 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hey Ray!!
      My hubby picked-up the correct hose adapter and it's now on my utility sink waiting for me to
      take it for another spin. I put together a bin of things I may need when I go to use it so I don't have to 
      be running around looking for stuff while it's running or running around trying to find things so I can get started. I included a bowl and instant read digital thermometer so I could get as close as possible to the tank temp.  Carrying all those water buckets really took it out of me.   It wasn't so bad filling that little 5 gal bucket to take care of the 5 gal tank but the 55 wore me out. I can't even imagine how big your tanks are or how many you have. Not too long ago you mentioned breeding or something. Is that your profession?  How many tanks and how many did you own and do you own now?? I looked in the pics area thinking there might be some of all your tanks but there are so many folders that I never found it. 

      The 5 gallon hex was the original home for my African Dwarf Frogs. Even though they were teeny the tank was too small.  My first frog didn't make it and it was after that when I looked for someone to help guide me and found Suzy and Alyce. The next two frogs did better but Suzy really kept on me about moving them to a 10 gal aquarium. She knew that they'd just keep doing poorly in that 5 gal. 
      I had to wait until I had the funds to buy everything I needed and after I did they got moved but I still lost my boy frog.  My little girl Fannie is the only female I have now. She lives with the two boys in the 10 gal. Suzy and Alyce are now guiding me through the cycling of the tank.  With the 5 gal I had to do 50% water changes every other day just to fight the ammonia build up. 

      Losing the frogs in that tank and knowing how hard it was to keep things alive in it were my biggest reason to refrain from putting the Angels in there. They are way bigger than the frogs and I know how
      S
      You said you processed a refund but will you re-charge me when the pkg arrives??

      Sent from my iPhone't go hide. That same night I put food in the feeding ring and he ate with me standing there watching him. I hated the thought of netting him, moving him and starting all over with him traumatized again. He's just trusting me and I don't want to take the chance he'll never get past that. The other one isn't as timid or wasn't as traumatized, just this one guy. 

      Having these two alone in this tank has helped me learn about feeding them. You told me to only feed what they can eat in 5 minutes but that's hard to gauge when I have no experience or no reference point, nothing to look at to tell me ok they're good with 10 pieces of flake food but 15 is too many etc... I've been feeding them by putting 3-4 pieces into the feeding ring. After they get eaten I'll add a few more and I do this until they stop eating. After a few minutes I've been scooping out the leftovers with a brine shrimp net. 

      I haven't started vacuuming the gravel yet or doing any water changes. I wasn't quite sure when those activities should start.  After dinner I'm going to get three Cory cats to clean up the bottom. I'm not planning to add anything else until after the cycle.  When it is time to get more,  I want to keep only non-aggressive, community fish. I had luck with fish coming from Petsmart so I will prob stay with them. I do want to set up a 19 gal quarantine tanks but I've got to hold off on spending for awhile. By the time the tank gets cycled I should be able to set it up but even then it'll have to be cycled too won't it?  Fish keeping has been an expensive hobby. My husband told me last night how much I've spent 
      In it in the last month and a half and my jaw hit the floor. He feels two tanks in our living room are enough. The funds I've used to get them going took a bite from savings.  His exact words "these aquariums are a money pit."  For the next 6-8 weeks I'll concentrate on getting through the cycle and just learning to take care of and clean up after the 5 fish.  I hope 5 will be a good number to cycle with. I know adding afterwards will be slow but that's what I need to do to co-exist with husband and family. 

      I added the bottle of Safe Start at the beginning and I've been adding Prime every day. When should I begin vacuuming gravel and doing water changes? Should I plan to replace filters during or after the cycle?  

      Do I replace water in the tank as its evaporated or is this only done at the water change so the salt can be adjusted accordingly? I understand the water/salt ratio I just didn't know about replacing the evaporated water. 



      On Dec 31, 2014, at 10:44 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      No biggie on the hot water miscommunication.  As you saw, I included a big Grin at the need of my statement.  You just forgot to add that little detail (LOL).  That Aquavac is going to save you a humongous amount of work; those 5 gallon buckets weigh nearly 40 pounds when nearly full.  I'd call that heavy! 
       pm
      I see what you mean about the emergency tank being only a 5 gallon hex.  Not really meant for any fish long-term, although holding a fish or two in quarantine requires a full month to be assured they're disease-free.  BTW, I hope you're aware that such emergency tanks' main purpose -- besides being used as a hospital tank -- is to use them to isolate and observe new fish for a month before adding them to your main tank so that you don't spread any possible disease to your other fish.  As 5 gallons is small, you might watch for PetSmart's periodic $1 per gallon tank sales.  You could pick up a 10 gallon tank for 10 Bucks at those times. 
       
      Looks like the Whisper is entirely out of the question for this small tank -- and the dried out media no longer contains live nitrifiers.  As for holding the Angels in this hex tank, cycling the 55 would take up to 6 weeks so this would be long-term, but it would be much less stressful on the fish, not subjecting them to abnormal ammonia levels.  Even ammonium is toxic, albeit much less so than ammonia.  IF you were to cycle the tank with fish in it, it would be much more of a benefit in using more for this purpose than less, as the finished cycle would be able to convert a larger amount of ammonia.  BUT, as long as we now have this fish-less cycling option, we NEVER advocate cycling a tank with fish if it can be avoided.  It is easier, and surer, to do a fish-less cycle -- and no stress to the fish.
       
      You do understand it correctly.  After the tank is cycled with the two Angelfish, you'll need add any other fish slowly so that the filter can catch up with handling the increased load.  Yes also, on cycling the tank with fish being a big pain whthe sun don't shine -- and with inadequate results.  The benefits of a fish-less cycle are, that you're not subjecting the fish to any stress and you can have the cycles' end result being capable of converting any amount of ammonia that you anticipate your eventual bioload will be when finally adding your fish.  An example, you could cycle the tank so that the nitrifiers will convert 10 ppm daily and if your eventual load of fish only produce 3 ppm of ammonia daily the worst scenario is that a portion of the bacteria will die off until the remainder can subsist on only 3 ppm produced daily.  You can (and should) add all of your fish at the time your tank is fully cycled.  When cycling with fish, it's a constant catch-up game in needing to slowly increase the cycle.  
       
      Getting back to holding the Angels in the 5 gallon tank, I'm picturing their body size (without fins) as being about 2" in diameter -- correct me if I'm wrong.  Changing out 90% of their water each time that's needed doesn't need to be stressful.  If doing this, with being sure the Aquavac is surely attached to this tank, just run the water more slowly -- and add the needed amount of Prime just before you turn the faucets on.  You need to be sure you can control the temperature properly though.  If you can't, have the Aquavac fill the 5 gallon bucket that you'd keep along side the 5 gallon tank and then just pour it in slowly from there after making sure the temperature's correct.  No carrying the bucket any long distance.  Normally, I don't suggest doing 90% PWC's, as for one thing they're not generally needed. but being a strong proponent of the notion that you can never change too much water (the more fresh water the fish are living in, the better they'll thrive), I've been doing 90% PWC's on all the tanks in my hatchery for about 50 years and 40% to 50% PWC's for the preceding 17 years -- and I've had about 3200 gallons in my tanks for the last 25 years (I cut back < g >).  
       
      As for the maximum fish load for your tank, it's not just the number of your fish this depends on but it's also their size (their full eventual size when they reach maturity) -- as they need the space to eventually grow to their maximum size.  You can't go by just the size they are now as that won't allow them room to grow.  There's a rule of thumb estimate that works fairly well for fish up to 3" (when full grown) and which works better for slenderer fish (like Tetras as an example) rather than more heavily-bodied fish (like Platies as an example), and that's to consider 1" per gallon.  While you want a nicely filled tank of fish though, you should never max it out with fish but always leave some room for contingencies -- like power outages during which you have no surface circulation to exchanges gases (carbon dioxide and oxygen).  You could have five 1 1/2" Cardinal Tetras, five 2" Zebra Danios, four 2 1/2" Cory's, two 5" Angelfish,  five 1 3/4" Rasboras and three 2 3/4" Swordtails as one example.  This would total to about 50" of fish.  You need to learn how not to overfeed though.  As I stated a while back, feed just enough that they'll clean up in 5 minutes. 
       
      Ordinarily, salt is not needed in the freshwater aquarium, even though it does have purposes at specific times and is useful in helping treat some diseases.  Some hobbyists use a token amount of 1 TBL of salt per five gallons -- which is not necessary in the slightest.  When cycling a tank with fish, and with subjecting them to possible high levels of ammonia and/or nitrite, even a much smaller amount of salt -- like a pinch per gallon (or less) -- will prevent both ammonia poisoning and nitrite poisoning.  Even the very small amount of 1 TBL of salt per about 25 gallons I recommended can really be reduced to 1 TBL for the whole 55 gallons, although I wanted to ensure the fish would be "doubly safe" (LOL).  Still, 1 TBL of salt per 25 gallons (actually, per 27.5 gallons) is minute.  You only need to be concerned with salt if you're having fish in the 55.  The same goes for Prime, which would be safer to add every day rather than every other day.  Yes, you have that correct, in the amount of salt you need to add back after these PWC amounts. 
       
      If fish-less cycling, and maintaining a 3 ppm level of ammonia requiring the addition of 3 to 4 drops per gallon, you only need to add 3 (or 4) teaspoons of household ammonia to the tank (drops can vary in size).  A teaspoon holds 50 drops.  As it needs to be maintained there until it reaches a point where all 3 ppm will be consumed by the following day, if for instance the ammonia drops to 2 ppm on the following day, you just need to add back about 1 teaspoon of household ammonia to bring it back up to 3 ppm. 
       
      You're not a pain as long as you can put this stuff to good use.  I don't mind giving some advice if it helps you succeed.  That's part of why I moderate here, to help hobbyists like you become successful at keeping fish.  It sounds like it would pay to drive to Gerbers when you're ready for more fish.  You could try PetSmart or Petco if you saw something you really liked that wasn't found at Gerbers, but these fish should definitely be quarantined until you can be sure they're disease-free. 
       
      HAPPY NEW YEAR,gry
       
      Ray
       
              
       
      In a message dated 12/31/2014 4:38:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:


      (Message over 64 KB, truncated)
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56369 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/5/2015
      Subject: Re: Questions on re-establishing tank
      AOL Email
      Okay, since you need the ammonia level higher to start your cycle, you'll need to add more to increase this "1.0 ppm" level.  I'm sure the cycle has already started though, for you to have nitrite present.  Just how much ammonia was consumed between yesterday and today though, is very uncertain.  Also, while I tried to make things easier by just adding teaspoons, I already did mention that the size of drops can vary depending on the size of the openings in droppers.  Still, I've found no info saying that a teaspoon holds any less than 50 drop -- and some sources say 70 or even 98 drops.  Three teaspoons should have been enough to bring the ammonia up to at least 2.5 ppm yesterday.  When you read this, add 3 more teaspoons of ammonia and post a number of what this level reaches after allowing this new ammonia to circulate for about 20 minutes.  I'll try to get back here within 2 hours, and we'll see if you need to add more.  While most sources state that household ammonia is a 10% solution, others say from 5% to 10% and yet others say between 2% and 10%.  With this much possible variation, it would be helpful if you would post this ammonia's strength (by percentage on the label)  here to give some idea of the solution's concentration.
       
      Ray
         
       
      In a message dated 1/5/2015 12:21:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      I checked the ammonia in the 55 gal this morning. It's now at "1".  I have not added any
      Additional ammonia since the initial 3 tsp. 

      Peg
      Soon Opening: Hoopin' It Up Designs
                                Custom Embroidery & Embellishments

      On Jan 5, 2015, at 8:41 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Just wanting to assure you, that fish don't have long memories although the older they get the greater their fear will be of the net -- even if they were never netted before.  The younger they are, the less fear they'll show.  Oh, so the Angels are about 2" in diameter (just wanted to get some idea of the bioload they represent).  Incidentally, a much less stressful way of capturing fish is to submerge an open plastic fish bag into the tank and guide the fish into it with a net.  Then quickly close the bag before the fish can turn around and get out.  Just move the bag from one tank to the next after that and if you need to make more room in the tank that the fish is going to, just spill most of the water out of the bag back into the first tank with your hand keeping the bag mostly closed.  A solid clear container will also work, like a glass jar, but anything that's opaque will easily wise the fish up to his being captured.   Another "incidentally,"  it's best you added some gravel to the 10 gallon tank -- not because of it holding bacteria, but because it will put the angels more at ease as opposed to having a bare glass bottom.  On the time it takes for cycling a tank, I thought you already knew that, but since you ask a fishless cycle takes between 4 and 6 weeks -- more often closer to six weeks.  There's where you can add Safe Start (or, Dr. Tim's One and Only -- or a combination of this and the product Dawn prefers).  You can't go wrong that way, and any bacteria supplement will only help speed matters along as long as you supply them with ammonia.  For cycling a tank with fish, it can take even longer as you can't allow large amounts of organic wastes to accumulate.  With needing to do PWC's, even just to keep the nitrate level down once that starts to elevate, this limits the amount of ammonia in the water which the bacteria need to thrive on as you'll need to keep removing much of it.
       
      Okay, the numbers for the 10 gallon look just fine.  Check them each day, although you can leave the GH out as that remains constant.  Add prime each day and if the tank requires a PWC, add the Prime afterwards.  As you're not going to be cycling this tank, do PWC's on it as soon as you see any elevation in the ammonia, which could be every day, but keeping the ammonia at an absolute minimum each day should only require minimum PWC's.  Still, let us know what these numbers are.  As for the numbers in your 55, it's off to a good start although it's unusual to have the nitrite this high so early, when your ammonia is only at 0.25 ppm.  Still, this can't pose any danger when there's sn no fish in the tank. To establish exactly how much household ammonia will bring the ammonia level up to 4.0 ppm, it would have been preferred to test for it right after time (perhaps 20 minutes) was allowed for it to be thoroughly mixed in with the tank water.  Give us a test result for it now and don't add any more ammonia until I can evaluate it.  Your Angelfish sound very nice.  Let me add, that as each one has their own "personality," they'll all behave slightly different within the confines of Angelfish behavior. 
       
      With having a good number of tanks needing maintenance, one needs to have a system in place to attend them all on a regular basis.  Naturally, time just wouldn't permit attending to all the tanks in a day (or two), so a schedule needs to be determined as to which tanks get their weekly maintenance on which days throughout the week or throughout the month.  Once that's planned out -- and it's always good to draw up a chart, like a calendar, to keep a better check on the scheduling -- it makes things much easier.  As for breeding, if you happen to add some livebearers (Guppies, Swordtails, Platies, etc.) somewhere down the line after getting you 55 squared away, they'll do the breeding for you without your having to do anything yourself.  As any fry not finding shelter will be eaten, you'll need to remove them and place them in their own tank for raising,  This is how hobbyists first develop MTS, and how you may likely develop this syndrome also, after a while.  Other uses for more tanks than would seem needed just for maintaining a community tank or two is for maintaining species that are threatened and/or endangered in the wild.  I'm presently maintaining several tanks of endangered species, sometimes with some of them breeding and I then distribute them to other hobbyists who also maintain some endangered fishes.  Sometimes these fish are threatened in the wild because of their habitat being destroyed.  If they go extinct in the wild, with keeping captive populations in the aquarium, there will be stocks of them to replenish their native environments if and when they can be restored.  There are some Pleco's more ideally suited for the small aquarium and which get to a maximum size of around 6".  They're not "gross," and do a nice job of keeping the tank free of most types of algae.  The common Pleco gets huge however, and should preferable be housed only in very large tanks to prevent from stunting them, which is why I suggested the one we were just discussing might be best moved to a larger aquarium.                     
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/5/2015 2:30:45 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      I know you keep telling me fishless cycling is the best and that its less stressful for the fish but 
      I tell ya Ray, my yellow angel had just started to trust me, she wasn't going to hide when she saw 
      approaching and she was finally eating when I put food in for her.  I feared netting her and moving her 
      to a temp tank would just spook her even more. I don't know if fish hold grudges but hopefully she'll 
      come around again once she gets back in her permanent home. How long does a fishless cycle usually take??  I've only been thru one cycle and that's the one I just finished with my frogs. I was so happy yesterday when the nitrates spiked and the ammonia dropped to zero. I tested the new 10 gal tank
      Tonight. The numbers were Ph 7.6, HPh 8, Ammonia 0, Nitrites 0, Nitrates 5, GH8, KH 6   I'm glad I had almost everything needed to get the 10 gal going ....well with the exception of the tank. That worked out pretty good. That sale came Along at a good time! ;p


      Today, the numbers for the 55 gal tank were:  Ph 7.6, HPh 8.2, Ammonia .25,  Nitrites 2, Nitrates 40, GH 8, KH 4.  I added 3 tsp of ammonia after I tested the water. I'll test in the morning and let you know how the added ammonia affected the numbers. The Angels from tip of nose to end of tail are about 3 inches and 
      from bottom of fin to top of fin about 4 inches. They have those long things that hang down like whiskers... 
      I don't know what they're called but I didn't count those. They're pretty nice sized but not adult size yet.  I live Angels. They're one of my favorites but the 2 big ones I re-homed were kind of aggressive and 
      have me afraid to get anymore. They terrorized the snails and drove the little fish to hide.  They were intimidating and used fin-Nipping to get the fish out of their space.  The bigger one, I believed to be 
      A male was marked like a tiger. He looked like he was velvet, just beautiful. He would "patrol" an area
      While the other one was hanging out and then they'd switch places.   Very odd behavior. 
      I didn't know until very recently that they were part of the Cichlid family. Sounds like you came up with some beauties.

      It's hard to imagine 90 tanks in 1 house. My head would be swimming as I tried to remember what I
      Needed to do with each. Breeding sounds interesting but I have no idea how it's done or what needs to happen.  Sometime when you get pics up, I'd like to see them! Lol!!! Sounds like the new group member
      Has interests similar to yours. He was talking about the big Pleco and I remembered the ones that are up at our Jacks Pets. People have bought them and they get HUGE and the people can't deal with them. They have some that are 2 feet long. They're so gross. I had some pics of them. I'll have to see if I can find them. 
      They gross me out. 

      I





      Sent from my iPad

      On Jan 4, 2015, at 6:56 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Alright Peg, you've made the best choice by choosing fish-less cycling for the 55 gallon.  Yes, as you found out, large water changes can add to your water bill.  Depending on which part of there country you live in, your water can be almost as cheap as air or it can get rather expensive for comparably small quantities of it.  As am example, I'm charged $4.12 for each 100 cubic feet (748 gallons) of water -- plus the monthly $8.85 facilities charge no matter how much or how little water I use.  The "facilities" charge pays for the infrastructure of pipes getting the water to my house, the pumping and filtration of the water at the plant and anything else that the water company passes on to their consumers.  By this you can see that I'd use almost 400 cubic feet of water a week if I did 90% PWC's on all tanks each week, or 1600 cubic feet per month, at a charge of $65.92 each month.  However, 24 years ago I switched to my private well -- of which this water is exceedingly better for maintaining and raising fish -- and it only costs me the price of the electricity use to pump the water; next to nothing.  We had another moderator on this Group up until 5 or 6 years ago, who lived in Louisiana.  His water bill was practically nothing. 
      Anyhow, with cycling the 55 gallon tank, you will do no PWC's until the cycle's complete.  At that time, you'll need to do one large PWC to the extent of removing all of the excess nitrate, at least anything over over 40 ppm and preferably even more -- enough to get the nitrate down to 20 ppm (or even lower) is always nice.  When that time comes, just give us a test reading of what your nitrate level is, and we'll tell you exactly how much water to change.  At this time, you'll add your two Angelfish and three Cory's back into the 55 and any other fishes you also want to include.  
       
      Now, getting to the 10 gallon tank; you will not be cycling this tank but will just be relying on PWC's to keep the water free of contaminants.  Therefore, there's no need to add Safe Start, but keepi4 Prime in there all the time (adding daily) would be helpful.  Yeah, I told you abouit Petco's $1 per gallon sales -- I just didn't know when to expect them.  Can't beat those prices, and they usually have these sales at least 3 times a year.  That you've already added Safe Start to this 10 gallon tank is fine, although the bacteria may starve out because of very minimal amount of ammonia being kept in the water all of the time.  No need to add any more Safe Start to this tank.  Yes, you will need to take daily ammonia tests and change enough water in quantity and in intervals to keep the ammonia level as low as possible.  You already have the idea.  You may report the ammonia test results for this tank here and I'll tell you exactly how much water needs to be changed.  I see you added the Whisper filter to enable any nitrifying bacteria that's able to grow, a chance to do just that by populating the media -- with as little ammonia as we're going to allow.  It appears you added the fish this afternoon, please post the ammonia level for this tank tomorrow.  I don't expect it to have changed very much, but we need to have a figure to work with when taken by surprise.   BTW, while on these fish, about what size are these Angelfish -- their body diameter excluding the fins?  How big are the Cory's?
       
      Now, back to cycling the 55.  No need to change any water, even now.  I'll go over the steps once more.  Let me know if you need anything else explained after I'm done -- if it's not very clear.  First, add 3 drops per gallon of clear (not sudsy) household ammonia to this tank.  As a teaspoon hold about 50 drops, 3 teaspoons of this ammonia for starters.  After giving it some time to thoroughly mix, do an ammonia test.  It should be near 3 ppm, but with this much ammonia it probably will not exceed this.  You may even need to add more, but I won't tell you to do this initially as I don't want your ammonia level too high either.  It's always easier to add but much harder to remove without doing PWC's.  Depending on your ammonia level after allowing it to mix, I'll let you know how much (if any) more you may need to add.  Once you have the ammonia level where we want it -- and I believe I may aim for 4 ppm as an amount to maintain -- you'll need to test the ammonia tomorrow (and every day) and add just enough more ammonia to bring the level back up to 4 ppm if any was used.  If none was used, then test it the next day.  When you see a drop in the ammonia, report it here to be able to know how much more ammonia to add to bring the level back up to where we prefer to maintain it.  After about 10 to 12 days, you should start to see a noticeable increase in the nitrite.  At this time, you may test for both of these products and you'll see the nitrite spike to a certain high level after another 10 to 12 days and then slowly decline after this.  Keep adding just enough more ammonia to keep the level at the predetermined 4 ppm.  Towards to end of the cycle, as it's completing, you'll find that more and more ammonia is being used up every day after adding the make-up amount the previous day.  Very near the end, after adding the amount of ammonia to bring it back up to 4 ppm, the next day's ammonia level will read about 0.5 ppm or even 0.25 ppm.  When the next day's ammonia reading is zero after adding the needed amount of ammonia the previous day, and the next day's nitrite level is also zero, you'll know that there's now a sufficient amount of both types of nitrifying bacteria in your filters to be able to convert 4 ppm of ammonia.  This 4 ppm is usually a bit more, and is in most cases not any less, than a properly stocked tank's fish will produce in one day.  At this time, you can discontinue adding the household ammonia and feel free to add all of the fish you want to include in this tank, knowing that all of their ammonia will be converted to nitrite and then nitrate each day.  Your tank will be fully cycled.  As a cycle being able to convert 4 ppm of ammonia per day may be slightly more than your full stock of fish will produce in one day -- which may only be 3 ppm -- but this only means that your tank will be adequately cycled to handle the waste from all of your fish and if that waste is no more than 3 ppm. the bacteria populations will adjust (reduce) to quantities that can live on 3 ppm rather than 4 ppm -- a portion will starve out in readjusting, but you'll have at least as much bacteria to start with than you need.  The 4 ppm constant ammonia level finishes the nitrite cycling part faster as there's more food to feed on. 
       
      IMPORTANT now, before adding any fish -- this is the time at the end of the cycling period when you must change enough water to remove the excess nitrates which have been building up all along.           
       
      Thanks for the instructions on how to post pics.  I've been talked through this in the past, but never actually been "walked" through this, as with someone being right here next to me showing me exactly what needs to be done and how it's actually done.  I'm keeping your notes handy though, but I'll get to it as time permits -- and as a better browser will allow (I need a 'puter update); thanks.
       
      I think I covered everything on cycling a tank.  I know it's not easy to understand what's happening, but I hope my explanations through these steps makes it easier to be understood. 
       
      Oh yeah, Yes, I ONLY have 90 tanks right now < g >.  And yes, they're all at my house right now -- wall to wall in the basement and rack to rack, isle to isle.  For hobbyists who may be comparatively new to fish keeping, it should be explained that after a while many of us develop "MTS," or . . . Multi-Tank Syndrome.  Some hobbyist go to the extent of building their own fish rooms in their basements and others even go so far as to build separate fish houses in their backyards.  A very good friend of mine and a nationally know aquarist at one time had 150 tanks in operation before he retired,  Now he has about 50 tanks -- he had to cut back (he's 86 years old now).  Another good friend of mine who specialized in Killifish rented out a storefront and maintained 300 tanks.  He'd clean 10 tanks a day and by the end of the month he had them all cleaned and would start all over again in their maintenance.  He had to cut back too, as he took a fall off of a ladder and hurt himself.  Fortunately, he's okay now, but he's getting up there in years also.  What do I do with them?  -- I sell them to the local pet shops, submit them in the various clubs' auctions, distribute and trade them among fellow hobbyists and put them in shows.  There's always a market for home-grown tropical fish.  Numerous tanks are also needed to develop other strains of fish when line-breeding to enhance traits while restricting the genes from becoming too inbred (by mutually carrying the genes via cousins rather than by brothers and sisters).  After several generations of side-by-side breeding for these traits by related (but not too closely) fish carrying the same mutation, these cousins are then bred to each other to enhance the traits.  Once the line breeding produces only prodengy (offspring) displaying the desired new traits, the strain is said to be "fixed."  It takes a lot of tanks to carry and raise all the needed fish for developing new strain, which I enjoy doing.  Twenty five years ago I developed my own Koi Angelfish before I even knew it was in the stage of being developed by others.  My Koi was a prize-winning strain which took 1st in its Class in the American Cichlid Association's Convention back then.  I've since developed other Angelfish strains, such as Black Angels being derived out of a crossing "stripe-less" Angels, i.e., Dark Marbles first bred to be solid and Chocolate Angels first bred to the same characteristic, then crossed to create the solid Black (Most other Black Angels today will show darker stripes showing through the lighter overall black because they're developed from Black Lace, which were developed from the wild Silver/Black Striped Angel.  There are lots of things you can do with having many tanks, the imagination is limitless.
       
      Ray
       
             
       
      In a message dated 1/4/2015 3:59:33 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Funny you should mention the use of a lot of tap water.... Our water bill was doubled this cycle. My
      Husband wasn't thrilled but luckily water is the cheapest commodity. I will probably use the Aquavac for water changes but like you mentioned I'll get the siphon started then turn the tap off.  I used it to drain the tank last time but I didn't have the faucet adapter so my husband got it started. The hose is 50 feet and drains down to the utility sink in the basement. Even without the water going it drained pretty quick.  If I had multiple tanks to take care of I might look into the pump thing but this one tank is enough for me. 

      You ONLY have 90 tanks now? Are all of those tanks at your house now?  If you're not commercially breeding fish what do you do with all of them? I can't even imagine having 90 fish tanks...it's inconceivable to me. It sounds like you really love it and it brings you joy...that's what it's all about. 

      Adding pictures to the Yahoo groups page is easy(waaaayyy easier than taking care of aalllll those fish). 
      Once you log in, go to your Yahoo groups page and select Aquatic Life. Once there you'll see an icon for Photos on the  upper left side and you'll select that. Now you'll see an icon on the right for Albums. 
      If you select that you can create your album and after doing so it'll step you through selecting and uploading your opics to that album. In some groups you can email Pics as a part of your post but I see this group has that feature disabled. It's not a bad idea to disable it, cuts back on crap getting posted that may not be appropriate.

      I read a post on the frog group page that Petco was having the $1 a gallon sale so I went and got a 10 gallon tank to use in place of that 5 gal hex. Luckily I had the a Whisper filter, pump, gravel etc... I added a bottle of Safe Start and Prime and moved the Angels out of the 55 gal tank. Since that tank isn't cycled, I'm assuming it won't get cycled but that I'll do water changes however often they're  needed to keep the ammonia down?  When I do the water changes will I just treat it with Prime? For my wallets sake, I'm hoping I don't have to add a bottle of Safe Start every 2-3 days... 

      I know you've briefly gone over the steps I'll need to take with the household ammonia but would it be possible for you to give me something a little more detailed?  Like, will I be starting with the water and filters as they are now or would t be better to drain it again and start from scratch?  As we proceed, will I still have to do water changes on the 55 gal tank? I guess I still don't fully understand what happens when you do a fishless cycle. 

      Now that the tank will cycle w/o fish how is it decided how many fish can go in after the cycle finishes and when do they go in? When will the Angels go back in?





      On Jan 3, 2015, at 6:39 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:ô

       

      Re
      Hi Peg,
       
      Using 5 gallon buckets is the hard way to do water changes, unless you're really strong enough so that it doesn't bother you.  It's also very time consuming and some beginner hobbyists just give up on it at this point, feeling that it's too much work to have to do week after week.  Many of us, including myself, made water changes with buckets when we were just starting out, and when we were much younger < g >.  I'm glad for your sake that you got that AquaVac so that you can get away from carrying those buckets.  You're going to find though, that drawing water out of the tank with that water changer will use a lot of tap water.  One way to avoid that if possible is to start it running like that and then turn the faucet off and just let it syphon out the rest of the way, even though it will take longer.  By now, many of us use water pumps to remove the aquarium water and sometimes one to refill the tank, depending on the water change set-up we use.  On multiple tank set ups, one set of hoses and a pump is used to draw down the water while the previous tank is being filled, so that no time is wasted; it goes quite quickly.  All of the on-line aquarium supply houses carry a selection of water pumps of all sizes, or one can pick up a utility pump at Home Depot or Loews. 
       
      Trying to make this next long-story short, my biggest tanks now are a number of 125 gallon aquariums, but I had tanks up to 260 gallons when I needed them.  Besides these 125's I have several 100 gallon tanks, half a dozen 75 gallon tank, a dozen 50 gallon tanks, a few 55's, etc., etc.  I've cut way back from when I was commercially breeding fish and only have about 90 tanks right now (with a total volume of 3200 gallons).  Of course, I still breed fish right now as I thoroughly enjoy it.  At one time, a good number of years ago, I had a tropical fish store with a friend/partner of mine.  When I sold my half off to my partner, I went into importing fish, from Germany and Africa (Lake Malawi, Lake Victoria and Lake Tanganyika) and distributed them throughout the country (and as far as Australia).  It was never my actual profession as I was a printer, but I guess you could call it a second profession.  Probably spent as much time (or more) doing this as doing anything else.  When I retired from printing, I managed one of the largest Water Garden Suppliers dealing in ponds, their fish and their many plants, specializing in Water Lilies; each day was fun as it was totally enjoyable -- it certainly wasn't work.    Sorry, I don't have any pics in any folders, as no one ever taught me how to put photos up on line.  It's got to be really easy as everyone is doing it, but unless a person does this at least once -- by being walked through it -- it's all Greek, including all the internet terms.      
       
      I see you've found that the smaller the tank is, the harder it is to take care of.  Ammonia builds up a lot faster in a 5 gallon tank as compared to tank double that size.  As you don't yet know how much your fish will eat in 5 minutes, just start with a small amount -- more than just a certain number of flakes you can count on two hands.  If there's food left over after five minutes, cut back on the amount of food next time -- and the time after that -- until you get the idea of the proper amount.  A small aquarium fish's stomach might be the size of a garden pea; it doesn't  take much to satisfy the fish.  You'll never get to learn how much to feed if you keep giving more and waiting for the fish to eat that, and then give it more yet -- until the fish won't eat anymore.  You should never feed fish so much that they won't eat any more.  Fish don't know when to stop eating as they don't know that they'll be fed again the next day.  They'll keep eating as much as they can, while the opportunity presents itself.  It's not good for the fish to feed them this much.  It can even be a cause for a condition called "Bloat," which can ocassionally be fatal, depending on its actual cause.. 
       
      Yes, it can be a money pit if you let it.  Now that you have all the basic necessities, it shouldn't cost very much at all from here on in.  The major additions now would be more fish and maybe plants if you feel up to them.  None of this needs to (nor should) be done all at once anyway.  When the water level drops in the tank due to evaporation, none of the salt is lost.  Yes, you may replace water lost due to evaporation .  When adding new water to top the tank off because of this evaporation, you don't add any more salt.  The water parameters should tell you when to start doing PWC's, especially the nitrite which you don't want to allow to get too high, but even the ammonia should not be much above 4.0 ppm (3.0 ppm is better, although the cycle will take longer).  Too much of a drop in your KH will also tell you it's time to make a PWC.  You can start vacuuming after the second week -- and then, only do half the tank at a time, doing the other half the next week. 
       
      Ray  
       
        
      In a message dated 1/3/2015 4:46:09 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hey Ray!!
      My hubby picked-up the correct hose adapter and it's now on my utility sink waiting for me to
      take it for another spin. I put together a bin of things I may need when I go to use it so I don't have to 
      be running around looking for stuff while it's running or running around trying to find things so I can get started. I included a bowl and instant read digital thermometer so I could get as close as possible to the tank temp.  Carrying all those water buckets really took it out of me.   It wasn't so bad filling that little 5 gal bucket to take care of the 5 gal tank but the 55 wore me out. I can't even imagine how big your tanks are or how many you have. Not too long ago you mentioned breeding or something. Is that your profession?  How many tanks and how many did you own and do you own now?? I looked in the pics area thinking there might be some of all your tanks but there are so many folders that I never found it. 

      The 5 gallon hex was the original home for my African Dwarf Frogs. Even though they were teeny the tank was too small.  My first frog didn't make it and it was after that when I looked for someone to help guide me and found Suzy and Alyce. The next two frogs did better but Suzy really kept on me about moving them to a 10 gal aquarium. She knew that they'd just keep doing poorly in that 5 gal. 
      I had to wait until I had the funds to buy everything I needed and after I did they got moved but I still lost my boy frog.  My little girl Fannie is the only female I have now. She lives with the two boys in the 10 gal. Suzy and Alyce are now guiding me through the cycling of the tank.  With the 5 gal I had to do 50% water changes every other day just to fight the ammonia build up. 

      Losing the frogs in that tank and knowing how hard it was to keep things alive in it were my biggest reason to refrain from putting the Angels in there. They are way bigger than the frogs and I know how
      S
      You said you processed a refund but will you re-charge me when the pkg arrives??

      Sent from my iPhone't go hide. That same night I put food in the feeding ring and he ate with me standing there watching him. I hated the thought of netting him, moving him and starting all over with him traumatized again. He's just trusting me and I don't want to take the chance he'll never get past that. The other one isn't as timid or wasn't as traumatized, just this one guy. 

      Having these two alone in this tank has helped me learn about feeding them. You told me to only feed what they can eat in 5 minutes but that's hard to gauge when I have no experience or no reference point, nothing to look at to tell me ok they're good with 10 pieces of flake food but 15 is too many etc... I've been feeding them by putting 3-4 pieces into the feeding ring. After they get eaten I'll add a few more and I do this until they stop eating. After a few minutes I've been scooping out the leftovers with a brine shrimp net. 

      I haven't started vacuuming the gravel yet or doing any water changes. I wasn't quite sure when those activities should start.  After dinner I'm going to get three Cory cats to clean up the bottom. I'm not planning to add anything else until after the cycle.  When it is time to get more,  I want to keep only non-aggressive, community fish. I had luck with fish coming from Petsmart so I will prob stay with them. I do want to set up a 19 gal quarantine tanks but I've got to hold off on spending for awhile. By the time the tank gets cycled I should be able to set it up but even then it'll have to be cycled too won't it?  Fish keeping has been an expensive hobby. My husband told me last night how much I've spent 
      In it in the last month and a half and my jaw hit the floor. He feels two tanks in our living room are enough. The funds I've used to get them going took a bite from savings.  His exact words "these aquariums are a money pit."  For the next 6-8 weeks I'll concentrate on getting through the cycle and just learning to take care of and clean up after the 5 fish.  I hope 5 will be a good number to cycle with. I know adding afterwards will be slow but that's what I need to do to co-exist with husband and family. 

      I added the bottle of Safe Start at the beginning and I've been adding Prime every day. When should I begin vacuuming gravel and doing water changes? Should I plan to replace filters during or after the cycle?  

      Do I replace water in the tank as its evaporated or is this only done at the water change so the salt can be adjusted accordingly? I understand the water/salt ratio I just didn't know about replacing the evaporated water. 



      On Dec 31, 2014, at 10:44 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      No biggie on the hot water miscommunication.  As you saw, I included a big Grin at the need of my statement.  You just forgot to add that little detail (LOL).  That Aquavac is going to save you a humongous amount of work; those 5 gallon buckets weigh nearly 40 pounds when nearly full.  I'd call that heavy! 
       pm
      I see what you mean about the emergency tank being only a 5 gallon hex.  Not really meant for any fish long-term, although holding a fish or two in quarantine requires a full month to be assured they're disease-free.  BTW, I hope you're aware that such emergency tanks' main purpose -- besides being used as a hospital tank -- is to use them to isolate and observe new fish for a month before adding them to your main tank so that you don't spread any possible disease to your other fish.  As 5 gallons is small, you might watch for PetSmart's periodic $1 per gallon tank sales.  You could pick up a 10 gallon tank for 10 Bucks at those times. 
       
      Looks like the Whisper is entirely out of the question for this small tank -

      (Message over 64 KB, truncated)
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56370 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 1/5/2015
      Subject: Numbers for 1/5
      These numbers are for the 20 gal tank

      Ph 7.6, Hph 8, Ammonia 0, nitrites 0, nitrates 5, KH 7

      I sent the ammonia number for the 55 gal in separate email

      Sent from my iPhone
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56371 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 1/5/2015
      Subject: Re: Questions on re-establishing tank
      Added 3 tsp, allowed 20 min to pass for water 
      to circulate then ran test. Result was 4.0

      Sent from my iPhone

      On Jan 5, 2015, at 12:51 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Okay, since you need the ammonia level higher to start your cycle, you'll need to add more to increase this "1.0 ppm" level.  I'm sure the cycle has already started though, for you to have nitrite present.  Just how much ammonia was consumed between yesterday and today though, is very uncertain.  Also, while I tried to make things easier by just adding teaspoons, I already did mention that the size of drops can vary depending on the size of the openings in droppers.  Still, I've found no info saying that a teaspoon holds any less than 50 drop -- and some sources say 70 or even 98 drops.  Three teaspoons should have been enough to bring the ammonia up to at least 2.5 ppm yesterday.  When you read this, add 3 more teaspoons of ammonia and post a number of what this level reaches after allowing this new ammonia to circulate for about 20 minutes.  I'll try to get back here within 2 hours, and we'll see if you need to add more.  While most sources state that household ammonia is a 10% solution, others say from 5% to 10% and yet others say between 2% and 10%.  With this much possible variation, it would be helpful if you would post this ammonia's strength (by percentage on the label)  here to give some idea of the solution's concentration.
       
      Ray
         
       
      In a message dated 1/5/2015 12:21:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      I checked the ammonia in the 55 gal this morning. It's now at "1".  I have not added any
      Additional ammonia since the initial 3 tsp. 

      Peg
      Soon Opening: Hoopin' It Up Designs
                                Custom Embroidery & Embellishments

      On Jan 5, 2015, at 8:41 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Just wanting to assure you, that fish don't have long memories although the older they get the greater their fear will be of the net -- even if they were never netted before.  The younger they are, the less fear they'll show.  Oh, so the Angels are about 2" in diameter (just wanted to get some idea of the bioload they represent).  Incidentally, a much less stressful way of capturing fish is to submerge an open plastic fish bag into the tank and guide the fish into it with a net.  Then quickly close the bag before the fish can turn around and get out.  Just move the bag from one tank to the next after that and if you need to make more room in the tank that the fish is going to, just spill most of the water out of the bag back into the first tank with your hand keeping the bag mostly closed.  A solid clear container will also work, like a glass jar, but anything that's opaque will easily wise the fish up to his being captured.   Another "incidentally,"  it's best you added some gravel to the 10 gallon tank -- not because of it holding bacteria, but because it will put the angels more at ease as opposed to having a bare glass bottom.  On the time it takes for cycling a tank, I thought you already knew that, but since you ask a fishless cycle takes between 4 and 6 weeks -- more often closer to six weeks.  There's where you can add Safe Start (or, Dr. Tim's One and Only -- or a combination of this and the product Dawn prefers).  You can't go wrong that way, and any bacteria supplement will only help speed matters along as long as you supply them with ammonia.  For cycling a tank with fish, it can take even longer as you can't allow large amounts of organic wastes to accumulate.  With needing to do PWC's, even just to keep the nitrate level down once that starts to elevate, this limits the amount of ammonia in the water which the bacteria need to thrive on as you'll need to keep removing much of it.
       
      Okay, the numbers for the 10 gallon look just fine.  Check them each day, although you can leave the GH out as that remains constant.  Add prime each day and if the tank requires a PWC, add the Prime afterwards.  As you're not going to be cycling this tank, do PWC's on it as soon as you see any elevation in the ammonia, which could be every day, but keeping the ammonia at an absolute minimum each day should only require minimum PWC's.  Still, let us know what these numbers are.  As for the numbers in your 55, it's off to a good start although it's unusual to have the nitrite this high so early, when your ammonia is only at 0.25 ppm.  Still, this can't pose any danger when there's sn no fish in the tank. To establish exactly how much household ammonia will bring the ammonia level up to 4.0 ppm, it would have been preferred to test for it right after time (perhaps 20 minutes) was allowed for it to be thoroughly mixed in with the tank water.  Give us a test result for it now and don't add any more ammonia until I can evaluate it.  Your Angelfish sound very nice.  Let me add, that as each one has their own "personality," they'll all behave slightly different within the confines of Angelfish behavior. 
       
      With having a good number of tanks needing maintenance, one needs to have a system in place to attend them all on a regular basis.  Naturally, time just wouldn't permit attending to all the tanks in a day (or two), so a schedule needs to be determined as to which tanks get their weekly maintenance on which days throughout the week or throughout the month.  Once that's planned out -- and it's always good to draw up a chart, like a calendar, to keep a better check on the scheduling -- it makes things much easier.  As for breeding, if you happen to add some livebearers (Guppies, Swordtails, Platies, etc.) somewhere down the line after getting you 55 squared away, they'll do the breeding for you without your having to do anything yourself.  As any fry not finding shelter will be eaten, you'll need to remove them and place them in their own tank for raising,  This is how hobbyists first develop MTS, and how you may likely develop this syndrome also, after a while.  Other uses for more tanks than would seem needed just for maintaining a community tank or two is for maintaining species that are threatened and/or endangered in the wild.  I'm presently maintaining several tanks of endangered species, sometimes with some of them breeding and I then distribute them to other hobbyists who also maintain some endangered fishes.  Sometimes these fish are threatened in the wild because of their habitat being destroyed.  If they go extinct in the wild, with keeping captive populations in the aquarium, there will be stocks of them to replenish their native environments if and when they can be restored.  There are some Pleco's more ideally suited for the small aquarium and which get to a maximum size of around 6".  They're not "gross," and do a nice job of keeping the tank free of most types of algae.  The common Pleco gets huge however, and should preferable be housed only in very large tanks to prevent from stunting them, which is why I suggested the one we were just discussing might be best moved to a larger aquarium.                     
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/5/2015 2:30:45 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      I know you keep telling me fishless cycling is the best and that its less stressful for the fish but 
      I tell ya Ray, my yellow angel had just started to trust me, she wasn't going to hide when she saw 
      approaching and she was finally eating when I put food in for her.  I feared netting her and moving her 
      to a temp tank would just spook her even more. I don't know if fish hold grudges but hopefully she'll 
      come around again once she gets back in her permanent home. How long does a fishless cycle usually take??  I've only been thru one cycle and that's the one I just finished with my frogs. I was so happy yesterday when the nitrates spiked and the ammonia dropped to zero. I tested the new 10 gal tank
      Tonight. The numbers were Ph 7.6, HPh 8, Ammonia 0, Nitrites 0, Nitrates 5, GH8, KH 6   I'm glad I had almost everything needed to get the 10 gal going ....well with the exception of the tank. That worked out pretty good. That sale came Along at a good time! ;p


      Today, the numbers for the 55 gal tank were:  Ph 7.6, HPh 8.2, Ammonia .25,  Nitrites 2, Nitrates 40, GH 8, KH 4.  I added 3 tsp of ammonia after I tested the water. I'll test in the morning and let you know how the added ammonia affected the numbers. The Angels from tip of nose to end of tail are about 3 inches and 
      from bottom of fin to top of fin about 4 inches. They have those long things that hang down like whiskers... 
      I don't know what they're called but I didn't count those. They're pretty nice sized but not adult size yet.  I live Angels. They're one of my favorites but the 2 big ones I re-homed were kind of aggressive and 
      have me afraid to get anymore. They terrorized the snails and drove the little fish to hide.  They were intimidating and used fin-Nipping to get the fish out of their space.  The bigger one, I believed to be 
      A male was marked like a tiger. He looked like he was velvet, just beautiful. He would "patrol" an area
      While the other one was hanging out and then they'd switch places.   Very odd behavior. 
      I didn't know until very recently that they were part of the Cichlid family. Sounds like you came up with some beauties.

      It's hard to imagine 90 tanks in 1 house. My head would be swimming as I tried to remember what I
      Needed to do with each. Breeding sounds interesting but I have no idea how it's done or what needs to happen.  Sometime when you get pics up, I'd like to see them! Lol!!! Sounds like the new group member
      Has interests similar to yours. He was talking about the big Pleco and I remembered the ones that are up at our Jacks Pets. People have bought them and they get HUGE and the people can't deal with them. They have some that are 2 feet long. They're so gross. I had some pics of them. I'll have to see if I can find them. 
      They gross me out. 

      I





      Sent from my iPad

      On Jan 4, 2015, at 6:56 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Alright Peg, you've made the best choice by choosing fish-less cycling for the 55 gallon.  Yes, as you found out, large water changes can add to your water bill.  Depending on which part of there country you live in, your water can be almost as cheap as air or it can get rather expensive for comparably small quantities of it.  As am example, I'm charged $4.12 for each 100 cubic feet (748 gallons) of water -- plus the monthly $8.85 facilities charge no matter how much or how little water I use.  The "facilities" charge pays for the infrastructure of pipes getting the water to my house, the pumping and filtration of the water at the plant and anything else that the water company passes on to their consumers.  By this you can see that I'd use almost 400 cubic feet of water a week if I did 90% PWC's on all tanks each week, or 1600 cubic feet per month, at a charge of $65.92 each month.  However, 24 years ago I switched to my private well -- of which this water is exceedingly better for maintaining and raising fish -- and it only costs me the price of the electricity use to pump the water; next to nothing.  We had another moderator on this Group up until 5 or 6 years ago, who lived in Louisiana.  His water bill was practically nothing. 
      Anyhow, with cycling the 55 gallon tank, you will do no PWC's until the cycle's complete.  At that time, you'll need to do one large PWC to the extent of removing all of the excess nitrate, at least anything over over 40 ppm and preferably even more -- enough to get the nitrate down to 20 ppm (or even lower) is always nice.  When that time comes, just give us a test reading of what your nitrate level is, and we'll tell you exactly how much water to change.  At this time, you'll add your two Angelfish and three Cory's back into the 55 and any other fishes you also want to include.  
       
      Now, getting to the 10 gallon tank; you will not be cycling this tank but will just be relying on PWC's to keep the water free of contaminants.  Therefore, there's no need to add Safe Start, but keepi4 Prime in there all the time (adding daily) would be helpful.  Yeah, I told you abouit Petco's $1 per gallon sales -- I just didn't know when to expect them.  Can't beat those prices, and they usually have these sales at least 3 times a year.  That you've already added Safe Start to this 10 gallon tank is fine, although the bacteria may starve out because of very minimal amount of ammonia being kept in the water all of the time.  No need to add any more Safe Start to this tank.  Yes, you will need to take daily ammonia tests and change enough water in quantity and in intervals to keep the ammonia level as low as possible.  You already have the idea.  You may report the ammonia test results for this tank here and I'll tell you exactly how much water needs to be changed.  I see you added the Whisper filter to enable any nitrifying bacteria that's able to grow, a chance to do just that by populating the media -- with as little ammonia as we're going to allow.  It appears you added the fish this afternoon, please post the ammonia level for this tank tomorrow.  I don't expect it to have changed very much, but we need to have a figure to work with when taken by surprise.   BTW, while on these fish, about what size are these Angelfish -- their body diameter excluding the fins?  How big are the Cory's?
       
      Now, back to cycling the 55.  No need to change any water, even now.  I'll go over the steps once more.  Let me know if you need anything else explained after I'm done -- if it's not very clear.  First, add 3 drops per gallon of clear (not sudsy) household ammonia to this tank.  As a teaspoon hold about 50 drops, 3 teaspoons of this ammonia for starters.  After giving it some time to thoroughly mix, do an ammonia test.  It should be near 3 ppm, but with this much ammonia it probably will not exceed this.  You may even need to add more, but I won't tell you to do this initially as I don't want your ammonia level too high either.  It's always easier to add but much harder to remove without doing PWC's.  Depending on your ammonia level after allowing it to mix, I'll let you know how much (if any) more you may need to add.  Once you have the ammonia level where we want it -- and I believe I may aim for 4 ppm as an amount to maintain -- you'll need to test the ammonia tomorrow (and every day) and add just enough more ammonia to bring the level back up to 4 ppm if any was used.  If none was used, then test it the next day.  When you see a drop in the ammonia, report it here to be able to know how much more ammonia to add to bring the level back up to where we prefer to maintain it.  After about 10 to 12 days, you should start to see a noticeable increase in the nitrite.  At this time, you may test for both of these products and you'll see the nitrite spike to a certain high level after another 10 to 12 days and then slowly decline after this.  Keep adding just enough more ammonia to keep the level at the predetermined 4 ppm.  Towards to end of the cycle, as it's completing, you'll find that more and more ammonia is being used up every day after adding the make-up amount the previous day.  Very near the end, after adding the amount of ammonia to bring it back up to 4 ppm, the next day's ammonia level will read about 0.5 ppm or even 0.25 ppm.  When the next day's ammonia reading is zero after adding the needed amount of ammonia the previous day, and the next day's nitrite level is also zero, you'll know that there's now a sufficient amount of both types of nitrifying bacteria in your filters to be able to convert 4 ppm of ammonia.  This 4 ppm is usually a bit more, and is in most cases not any less, than a properly stocked tank's fish will produce in one day.  At this time, you can discontinue adding the household ammonia and feel free to add all of the fish you want to include in this tank, knowing that all of their ammonia will be converted to nitrite and then nitrate each day.  Your tank will be fully cycled.  As a cycle being able to convert 4 ppm of ammonia per day may be slightly more than your full stock of fish will produce in one day -- which may only be 3 ppm -- but this only means that your tank will be adequately cycled to handle the waste from all of your fish and if that waste is no more than 3 ppm. the bacteria populations will adjust (reduce) to quantities that can live on 3 ppm rather than 4 ppm -- a portion will starve out in readjusting, but you'll have at least as much bacteria to start with than you need.  The 4 ppm constant ammonia level finishes the nitrite cycling part faster as there's more food to feed on. 
       
      IMPORTANT now, before adding any fish -- this is the time at the end of the cycling period when you must change enough water to remove the excess nitrates which have been building up all along.           
       
      Thanks for the instructions on how to post pics.  I've been talked through this in the past, but never actually been "walked" through this, as with someone being right here next to me showing me exactly what needs to be done and how it's actually done.  I'm keeping your notes handy though, but I'll get to it as time permits -- and as a better browser will allow (I need a 'puter update); thanks.
       
      I think I covered everything on cycling a tank.  I know it's not easy to understand what's happening, but I hope my explanations through these steps makes it easier to be understood. 
       
      Oh yeah, Yes, I ONLY have 90 tanks right now < g >.  And yes, they're all at my house right now -- wall to wall in the basement and rack to rack, isle to isle.  For hobbyists who may be comparatively new to fish keeping, it should be explained that after a while many of us develop "MTS," or . . . Multi-Tank Syndrome.  Some hobbyist go to the extent of building their own fish rooms in their basements and others even go so far as to build separate fish houses in their backyards.  A very good friend of mine and a nationally know aquarist at one time had 150 tanks in operation before he retired,  Now he has about 50 tanks -- he had to cut back (he's 86 years old now).  Another good friend of mine who specialized in Killifish rented out a storefront and maintained 300 tanks.  He'd clean 10 tanks a day and by the end of the month he had them all cleaned and would start all over again in their maintenance.  He had to cut back too, as he took a fall off of a ladder and hurt himself.  Fortunately, he's okay now, but he's getting up there in years also.  What do I do with them?  -- I sell them to the local pet shops, submit them in the various clubs' auctions, distribute and trade them among fellow hobbyists and put them in shows.  There's always a market for home-grown tropical fish.  Numerous tanks are also needed to develop other strains of fish when line-breeding to enhance traits while restricting the genes from becoming too inbred (by mutually carrying the genes via cousins rather than by brothers and sisters).  After several generations of side-by-side breeding for these traits by related (but not too closely) fish carrying the same mutation, these cousins are then bred to each other to enhance the traits.  Once the line breeding produces only prodengy (offspring) displaying the desired new traits, the strain is said to be "fixed."  It takes a lot of tanks to carry and raise all the needed fish for developing new strain, which I enjoy doing.  Twenty five years ago I developed my own Koi Angelfish before I even knew it was in the stage of being developed by others.  My Koi was a prize-winning strain which took 1st in its Class in the American Cichlid Association's Convention back then.  I've since developed other Angelfish strains, such as Black Angels being derived out of a crossing "stripe-less" Angels, i.e., Dark Marbles first bred to be solid and Chocolate Angels first bred to the same characteristic, then crossed to create the solid Black (Most other Black Angels today will show darker stripes showing through the lighter overall black because they're developed from Black Lace, which were developed from the wild Silver/Black Striped Angel.  There are lots of things you can do with having many tanks, the imagination is limitless.
       
      Ray
       
             
       
      In a message dated 1/4/2015 3:59:33 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Funny you should mention the use of a lot of tap water.... Our water bill was doubled this cycle. My
      Husband wasn't thrilled but luckily water is the cheapest commodity. I will probably use the Aquavac for water changes but like you mentioned I'll get the siphon started then turn the tap off.  I used it to drain the tank last time but I didn't have the faucet adapter so my husband got it started. The hose is 50 feet and drains down to the utility sink in the basement. Even without the water going it drained pretty quick.  If I had multiple tanks to take care of I might look into the pump thing but this one tank is enough for me. 

      You ONLY have 90 tanks now? Are all of those tanks at your house now?  If you're not commercially breeding fish what do you do with all of them? I can't even imagine having 90 fish tanks...it's inconceivable to me. It sounds like you really love it and it brings you joy...that's what it's all about. 

      Adding pictures to the Yahoo groups page is easy(waaaayyy easier than taking care of aalllll those fish). 
      Once you log in, go to your Yahoo groups page and select Aquatic Life. Once there you'll see an icon for Photos on the  upper left side and you'll select that. Now you'll see an icon on the right for Albums. 
      If you select that you can create your album and after doing so it'll step you through selecting and uploading your opics to that album. In some groups you can email Pics as a part of your post but I see this group has that feature disabled. It's not a bad idea to disable it, cuts back on crap getting posted that may not be appropriate.

      I read a post on the frog group page that Petco was having the $1 a gallon sale so I went and got a 10 gallon tank to use in place of that 5 gal hex. Luckily I had the a Whisper filter, pump, gravel etc... I added a bottle of Safe Start and Prime and moved the Angels out of the 55 gal tank. Since that tank isn't cycled, I'm assuming it won't get cycled but that I'll do water changes however often they're  needed to keep the ammonia down?  When I do the water changes will I just treat it with Prime? For my wallets sake, I'm hoping I don't have to add a bottle of Safe Start every 2-3 days... 

      I know you've briefly gone over the steps I'll need to take with the household ammonia but would it be possible for you to give me something a little more detailed?  Like, will I be starting with the water and filters as they are now or would t be better to drain it again and start from scratch?  As we proceed, will I still have to do water changes on the 55 gal tank? I guess I still don't fully understand what happens when you do a fishless cycle. 

      Now that the tank will cycle w/o fish how is it decided how many fish can go in after the cycle finishes and when do they go in? When will the Angels go back in?





      On Jan 3, 2015, at 6:39 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:ô

       

      Re
      Hi Peg,
       
      Using 5 gallon buckets is the hard way to do water changes, unless you're really strong enough so that it doesn't bother you.  It's also very time consuming and some beginner hobbyists just give up on it at this point, feeling that it's too much work to have to do week after week.  Many of us, including myself, made water changes with buckets when we were just starting out, and when we were much younger < g >.  I'm glad for your sake that you got that AquaVac so that you can get away from carrying those buckets.  You're going to find though, that drawing water out of the tank with that water changer will use a lot of tap water.  One way to avoid that if possible is to start it running like that and then turn the faucet off and just let it syphon out the rest of the way, even though it will take longer.  By now, many of us use water pumps to remove the aquarium water and sometimes one to refill the tank, depending on the water change set-up we use.  On multiple tank set ups, one set of hoses and a pump is used to draw down the water while the previous tank is being filled, so that no time is wasted; it goes quite quickly.  All of the on-line aquarium supply houses carry a selection of water pumps of all sizes, or one can pick up a utility pump at Home Depot or Loews. 
       
      Trying to make this next long-story short, my biggest tanks now are a number of 125 gallon aquariums, but I had tanks up to 260 gallons when I needed them.  Besides these 125's I have several 100 gallon tanks, half a dozen 75 gallon tank, a dozen 50 gallon tanks, a few 55's, etc., etc.  I've cut way back from when I was commercially breeding fish and only have about 90 tanks right now (with a total volume of 3200 gallons).  Of course, I still breed fish right now as I thoroughly enjoy it.  At one time, a good number of years ago, I had a tropical fish store with a friend/partner of mine.  When I sold my half off to my partner, I went into importing fish, from Germany and Africa (Lake Malawi, Lake Victoria and Lake Tanganyika) and distributed them throughout the country (and as far as Australia).  It was never my actual profession as I was a printer, but I guess you could call it a second profession.  Probably spent as much time (or more) doing this as doing anything else.  When I retired from printing, I managed one of the largest Water Garden Suppliers dealing in ponds, their fish and their many plants, specializing in Water Lilies; each day was fun as it was totally enjoyable -- it certainly wasn't work.    Sorry, I don't have any pics in any folders, as no one ever taught me how to put photos up on line.  It's got to be really easy as everyone is doing it, but unless a person does this at least once -- by being walked through it -- it's all Greek, including all the internet terms.      
       
      I see you've found that the smaller the tank is, the harder it is to take care of.  Ammonia builds up a lot faster in a 5 gallon tank as compared to tank double that size.  As you don't yet know how much your fish will eat in 5 minutes, just start with a small amount -- more than just a certain number of flakes you can count on two hands.  If there's food left over after five minutes, cut back on the amount of food next time -- and the time after that -- until you get the idea of the proper amount.  A small aquarium fish's stomach might be the size of a garden pea; it doesn't  take much to satisfy the fish.  You'll never get to learn how much to feed if you keep giving more and waiting for the fish to eat that, and then give it more yet -- until the fish won't eat anymore.  You should never feed fish so much that they won't eat any more.  Fish don't know when to stop eating as they don't know that they'll be fed again the next day.  They'll keep eating as much as they can, while the opportunity presents itself.  It's not good for the fish to feed them this much.  It can even be a cause for a condition called "Bloat," which can ocassionally be fatal, depending on its actual cause.. 
       
      Yes, it can be a money pit if you let it.  Now that you have all the basic necessities, it shouldn't cost very much at all from here on in.  The major additions now would be more fish and maybe plants if you feel up to them.  None of this needs to (nor should) be done all at once anyway.  When the water level drops in the tank due to evaporation, none of the salt is lost.  Yes, you may replace water lost due to evaporation .  When adding new water to top the tank off because of this evaporation, you don't add any more salt.  The water parameters should tell you when to start doing PWC's, especially the nitrite which you don't want to allow to get too high, but even the ammonia should not be much above 4.0 ppm (3.0 ppm is better, although the cycle will take longer).  Too much of a drop in your KH will also tell you it's time to make a PWC.  You can start vacuuming after the second week -- and then, only do half the tank at a time, doing the other half the next week. 
       
      Ray  
       
        
      In a message dated 1/3/2015 4:46:09 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hey Ray!!
      My hubby picked-up the correct hose adapter and it's now on my utility sink waiting for me to
      take it for another spin. I put together a bin of things I may need when I go to use it so I don't have to 
      be running around looking for stuff while it's running or running around trying to find things so I can get started. I included a bowl and instant read digital thermometer so I could get as close as possible to the tank temp.  Carrying all those water buckets really took it out of me.   It wasn't so bad filling that little 5 gal bucket to take care of the 5 gal tank but the 55 wore me out. I can't even imagine how big your tanks are or how many you have. Not too long ago you mentioned breeding or something. Is that your profession?  How many tanks and how many did you own and do you own now?? I looked in the pics area thinking there might be some of all your tanks but there are so many folders that I never found it. 

      The 5 gallon hex was the original home for my African Dwarf Frogs. Even though they were teeny the tank was too small.  My first frog didn't make it and it was after that when I looked for someone to help guide me and found Suzy and Alyce. The next two frogs did better but Suzy really kept on me about moving them to a 10 gal aquarium. She knew that they'd just keep doing poorly in that 5 gal. 
      I had to wait until I had the funds to buy everything I needed and after I did they got moved but I still lost my boy frog.  My little girl Fannie is the only female I have now. She lives with the two boys in the 10 gal. Suzy and Alyce are now guiding me through the cycling of the tank.  With the 5 gal I had to do 50% water changes every other day just to fight the ammonia build up. 

      Losing the frogs in that tank and knowing how hard it was to keep things alive in it were my biggest reason to refrain from putting the Angels in there. They are way bigger than the frogs and I know how
      S
      You said you processed a refund but will you re-charge me when the pkg arrives??

      Sent from my iPhone't go hide. That same night I put food in the feeding ring and he ate with me standing there watching him. I hated the thought of netting him, moving him and starting all over with him traumatized again. He's just trusting me and I don't want to take the chance he'll never get past that. The other one isn't as timid or wasn't as traumatized, just this one guy. 

      Having these two alone in this tank has helped me learn about feeding them. You told me to only feed what they can eat in 5 minutes but that's hard to gauge when I have no experience or no reference point, nothing to look at to tell me ok they're good with 10 pieces of flake food but 15 is too many etc... I've been feeding them by putting 3-4 pieces into the feeding ring. After they get eaten I'll add a few more and I do this until they stop eating. After a few minutes I've been scooping out the leftovers with a brine shrimp net. 

      I haven't started vacuuming the gravel yet or doing any water changes. I wasn't quite sure when those activities should start.  After dinner I'm going to get three Cory cats to clean up the bottom. I'm not planning to add anything else until after the cycle.  When it is time to get more,  I want to keep only non-aggressive, community fish. I had luck with fish coming from Petsmart so I will prob stay with them. I do want to set up a 19 gal quarantine tanks but I've got to hold off on spending for awhile. By the time the tank gets cycled I should be able to set it up but even then it'll have to be cycled too won't it?  Fish keeping has been an expensive hobby. My husband told me last night how much I've spent 
      In it in the last month and a half and my jaw hit the floor. He feels two tanks in our living room are enough. The funds I've used to get them going took a bite from savings.  His exact words "these aquariums are a money pit."  For the next 6-8 weeks I'll concentrate on getting through the cycle and just learning to take care of and clean up after the 5 fish.  I hope 5 will be a good number to cycle with. I know adding afterwards will be slow but that's what I need to do to co-exist with husband and family. 

      I added the bottle of Safe Start at the beginning and I've been adding Prime every day. When should I begin vacuuming gravel and doing water changes? Should I plan to replace filters during or after the cycle?  

      Do I replace water in the tank as its evaporated or is this only done at the water change so the salt can be adjusted accordingly? I understand the water/salt ratio I just didn't know about replacing the evaporated water. 



      On Dec 31, 2014, at 10:44 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      No biggie on the hot water miscommunication.  As you saw, I included a big Grin at the need of my statement.  You just forgot to add that little detail (LOL).  That Aquavac is going to save you a humongous amount of work; those 5 gallon buckets weigh nearly 40 pounds when nearly full.  I'd call that heavy! 
       pm
      I see what you mean about the emergency tank being only a 5 gallon hex.  Not really meant for any fish long-term, although holding a fish or two in quarantine requires a full month to be assured they're disease-free.  BTW, I hope you're aware that such emergency tanks' main purpose -- besides being used as a hospital tank -- is to use them to isolate and observe new fish for a month before adding them to your main tank so that you don't spread any possible disease to your other fish.  As 5 gallons is small, you might watch for PetSmart's periodic $1 per gallon tank sales.  You could pick up a 10 gallon tank for 10 Bucks at those times. 
       
      Looks like the Whisper is entirely out of the question for this small tank -- and the dried out media no longer contains live nitrifiers.  As for holding the Angels in this hex tank, cycling the 55 would take up to 6 weeks so this would be long-term, but it would be much less stressful on the fish, not subjecting them to abnormal ammonia levels.  Even ammonium is toxic, albeit much less so than ammonia.  IF you were to cycle the tank with fish in it, it would be

      (Message over 64 KB, truncated)
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56372 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/5/2015
      Subject: Re: Questions on re-establishing tank
      AOL Email
      Okay, that's FINE.  That's just where we want it.  As you added this same amount yesterday and the ammonia level was 1.0 ppm earlier today, this shows (or would seem to show) that the cycle may be further along than we thought, and would explain why the nitrite is increasing as much as it is right now.  Test the ammonia level tomorrow of course, and if it's back down to 1.0 add another 3 teaspoons of ammonia.  Post this also.  If this number is different than 1.0 though, just hold off while reporting it here and I'll figure out what to add.  Please pot the rest of the numbers for this 55 and for the 10 gallon's numbers today.
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/5/2015 3:53:45 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Added 3 tsp, allowed 20 min to pass for water 
      to circulate then ran test. Result was 4.0

      Sent from my iPhone

      On Jan 5, 2015, at 12:51 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Okay, since you need the ammonia level higher to start your cycle, you'll need to add more to increase this "1.0 ppm" level.  I'm sure the cycle has already started though, for you to have nitrite present.  Just how much ammonia was consumed between yesterday and today though, is very uncertain.  Also, while I tried to make things easier by just adding teaspoons, I already did mention that the size of drops can vary depending on the size of the openings in droppers.  Still, I've found no info saying that a teaspoon holds any less than 50 drop -- and some sources say 70 or even 98 drops.  Three teaspoons should have been enough to bring the ammonia up to at least 2.5 ppm yesterday.  When you read this, add 3 more teaspoons of ammonia and post a number of what this level reaches after allowing this new ammonia to circulate for about 20 minutes.  I'll try to get back here within 2 hours, and we'll see if you need to add more.  While most sources state that household ammonia is a 10% solution, others say from 5% to 10% and yet others say between 2% and 10%.  With this much possible variation, it would be helpful if you would post this ammonia's strength (by percentage on the label)  here to give some idea of the solution's concentration.
       
      Ray
         
       
      In a message dated 1/5/2015 12:21:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      I checked the ammonia in the 55 gal this morning. It's now at "1".  I have not added any
      Additional ammonia since the initial 3 tsp. 

      Peg
      Soon Opening: Hoopin' It Up Designs
                                Custom Embroidery & Embellishments

      On Jan 5, 2015, at 8:41 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Just wanting to assure you, that fish don't have long memories although the older they get the greater their fear will be of the net -- even if they were never netted before.  The younger they are, the less fear they'll show.  Oh, so the Angels are about 2" in diameter (just wanted to get some idea of the bioload they represent).  Incidentally, a much less stressful way of capturing fish is to submerge an open plastic fish bag into the tank and guide the fish into it with a net.  Then quickly close the bag before the fish can turn around and get out.  Just move the bag from one tank to the next after that and if you need to make more room in the tank that the fish is going to, just spill most of the water out of the bag back into the first tank with your hand keeping the bag mostly closed.  A solid clear container will also work, like a glass jar, but anything that's opaque will easily wise the fish up to his being captured.   Another "incidentally,"  it's best you added some gravel to the 10 gallon tank -- not because of it holding bacteria, but because it will put the angels more at ease as opposed to having a bare glass bottom.  On the time it takes for cycling a tank, I thought you already knew that, but since you ask a fishless cycle takes between 4 and 6 weeks -- more often closer to six weeks.  There's where you can add Safe Start (or, Dr. Tim's One and Only -- or a combination of this and the product Dawn prefers).  You can't go wrong that way, and any bacteria supplement will only help speed matters along as long as you supply them with ammonia.  For cycling a tank with fish, it can take even longer as you can't allow large amounts of organic wastes to accumulate.  With needing to do PWC's, even just to keep the nitrate level down once that starts to elevate, this limits the amount of ammonia in the water which the bacteria need to thrive on as you'll need to keep removing much of it.
       
      Okay, the numbers for the 10 gallon look just fine.  Check them each day, although you can leave the GH out as that remains constant.  Add prime each day and if the tank requires a PWC, add the Prime afterwards.  As you're not going to be cycling this tank, do PWC's on it as soon as you see any elevation in the ammonia, which could be every day, but keeping the ammonia at an absolute minimum each day should only require minimum PWC's.  Still, let us know what these numbers are.  As for the numbers in your 55, it's off to a good start although it's unusual to have the nitrite this high so early, when your ammonia is only at 0.25 ppm.  Still, this can't pose any danger when there's sn no fish in the tank. To establish exactly how much household ammonia will bring the ammonia level up to 4.0 ppm, it would have been preferred to test for it right after time (perhaps 20 minutes) was allowed for it to be thoroughly mixed in with the tank water.  Give us a test result for it now and don't add any more ammonia until I can evaluate it.  Your Angelfish sound very nice.  Let me add, that as each one has their own "personality," they'll all behave slightly different within the confines of Angelfish behavior. 
       
      With having a good number of tanks needing maintenance, one needs to have a system in place to attend them all on a regular basis.  Naturally, time just wouldn't permit attending to all the tanks in a day (or two), so a schedule needs to be determined as to which tanks get their weekly maintenance on which days throughout the week or throughout the month.  Once that's planned out -- and it's always good to draw up a chart, like a calendar, to keep a better check on the scheduling -- it makes things much easier.  As for breeding, if you happen to add some livebearers (Guppies, Swordtails, Platies, etc.) somewhere down the line after getting you 55 squared away, they'll do the breeding for you without your having to do anything yourself.  As any fry not finding shelter will be eaten, you'll need to remove them and place them in their own tank for raising,  This is how hobbyists first develop MTS, and how you may likely develop this syndrome also, after a while.  Other uses for more tanks than would seem needed just for maintaining a community tank or two is for maintaining species that are threatened and/or endangered in the wild.  I'm presently maintaining several tanks of endangered species, sometimes with some of them breeding and I then distribute them to other hobbyists who also maintain some endangered fishes.  Sometimes these fish are threatened in the wild because of their habitat being destroyed.  If they go extinct in the wild, with keeping captive populations in the aquarium, there will be stocks of them to replenish their native environments if and when they can be restored.  There are some Pleco's more ideally suited for the small aquarium and which get to a maximum size of around 6".  They're not "gross," and do a nice job of keeping the tank free of most types of algae.  The common Pleco gets huge however, and should preferable be housed only in very large tanks to prevent from stunting them, which is why I suggested the one we were just discussing might be best moved to a larger aquarium.                     
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/5/2015 2:30:45 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      I know you keep telling me fishless cycling is the best and that its less stressful for the fish but 
      I tell ya Ray, my yellow angel had just started to trust me, she wasn't going to hide when she saw 
      approaching and she was finally eating when I put food in for her.  I feared netting her and moving her 
      to a temp tank would just spook her even more. I don't know if fish hold grudges but hopefully she'll 
      come around again once she gets back in her permanent home. How long does a fishless cycle usually take??  I've only been thru one cycle and that's the one I just finished with my frogs. I was so happy yesterday when the nitrates spiked and the ammonia dropped to zero. I tested the new 10 gal tank
      Tonight. The numbers were Ph 7.6, HPh 8, Ammonia 0, Nitrites 0, Nitrates 5, GH8, KH 6   I'm glad I had almost everything needed to get the 10 gal going ....well with the exception of the tank. That worked out pretty good. That sale came Along at a good time! ;p


      Today, the numbers for the 55 gal tank were:  Ph 7.6, HPh 8.2, Ammonia .25,  Nitrites 2, Nitrates 40, GH 8, KH 4.  I added 3 tsp of ammonia after I tested the water. I'll test in the morning and let you know how the added ammonia affected the numbers. The Angels from tip of nose to end of tail are about 3 inches and 
      from bottom of fin to top of fin about 4 inches. They have those long things that hang down like whiskers... 
      I don't know what they're called but I didn't count those. They're pretty nice sized but not adult size yet.  I live Angels. They're one of my favorites but the 2 big ones I re-homed were kind of aggressive and 
      have me afraid to get anymore. They terrorized the snails and drove the little fish to hide.  They were intimidating and used fin-Nipping to get the fish out of their space.  The bigger one, I believed to be 
      A male was marked like a tiger. He looked like he was velvet, just beautiful. He would "patrol" an area
      While the other one was hanging out and then they'd switch places.   Very odd behavior. 
      I didn't know until very recently that they were part of the Cichlid family. Sounds like you came up with some beauties.

      It's hard to imagine 90 tanks in 1 house. My head would be swimming as I tried to remember what I
      Needed to do with each. Breeding sounds interesting but I have no idea how it's done or what needs to happen.  Sometime when you get pics up, I'd like to see them! Lol!!! Sounds like the new group member
      Has interests similar to yours. He was talking about the big Pleco and I remembered the ones that are up at our Jacks Pets. People have bought them and they get HUGE and the people can't deal with them. They have some that are 2 feet long. They're so gross. I had some pics of them. I'll have to see if I can find them. 
      They gross me out. 

      I





      Sent from my iPad

      On Jan 4, 2015, at 6:56 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Alright Peg, you've made the best choice by choosing fish-less cycling for the 55 gallon.  Yes, as you found out, large water changes can add to your water bill.  Depending on which part of there country you live in, your water can be almost as cheap as air or it can get rather expensive for comparably small quantities of it.  As am example, I'm charged $4.12 for each 100 cubic feet (748 gallons) of water -- plus the monthly $8.85 facilities charge no matter how much or how little water I use.  The "facilities" charge pays for the infrastructure of pipes getting the water to my house, the pumping and filtration of the water at the plant and anything else that the water company passes on to their consumers.  By this you can see that I'd use almost 400 cubic feet of water a week if I did 90% PWC's on all tanks each week, or 1600 cubic feet per month, at a charge of $65.92 each month.  However, 24 years ago I switched to my private well -- of which this water is exceedingly better for maintaining and raising fish -- and it only costs me the price of the electricity use to pump the water; next to nothing.  We had another moderator on this Group up until 5 or 6 years ago, who lived in Louisiana.  His water bill was practically nothing. 
      Anyhow, with cycling the 55 gallon tank, you will do no PWC's until the cycle's complete.  At that time, you'll need to do one large PWC to the extent of removing all of the excess nitrate, at least anything over over 40 ppm and preferably even more -- enough to get the nitrate down to 20 ppm (or even lower) is always nice.  When that time comes, just give us a test reading of what your nitrate level is, and we'll tell you exactly how much water to change.  At this time, you'll add your two Angelfish and three Cory's back into the 55 and any other fishes you also want to include.  
       
      Now, getting to the 10 gallon tank; you will not be cycling this tank but will just be relying on PWC's to keep the water free of contaminants.  Therefore, there's no need to add Safe Start, but keepi4 Prime in there all the time (adding daily) would be helpful.  Yeah, I told you abouit Petco's $1 per gallon sales -- I just didn't know when to expect them.  Can't beat those prices, and they usually have these sales at least 3 times a year.  That you've already added Safe Start to this 10 gallon tank is fine, although the bacteria may starve out because of very minimal amount of ammonia being kept in the water all of the time.  No need to add any more Safe Start to this tank.  Yes, you will need to take daily ammonia tests and change enough water in quantity and in intervals to keep the ammonia level as low as possible.  You already have the idea.  You may report the ammonia test results for this tank here and I'll tell you exactly how much water needs to be changed.  I see you added the Whisper filter to enable any nitrifying bacteria that's able to grow, a chance to do just that by populating the media -- with as little ammonia as we're going to allow.  It appears you added the fish this afternoon, please post the ammonia level for this tank tomorrow.  I don't expect it to have changed very much, but we need to have a figure to work with when taken by surprise.   BTW, while on these fish, about what size are these Angelfish -- their body diameter excluding the fins?  How big are the Cory's?
       
      Now, back to cycling the 55.  No need to change any water, even now.  I'll go over the steps once more.  Let me know if you need anything else explained after I'm done -- if it's not very clear.  First, add 3 drops per gallon of clear (not sudsy) household ammonia to this tank.  As a teaspoon hold about 50 drops, 3 teaspoons of this ammonia for starters.  After giving it some time to thoroughly mix, do an ammonia test.  It should be near 3 ppm, but with this much ammonia it probably will not exceed this.  You may even need to add more, but I won't tell you to do this initially as I don't want your ammonia level too high either.  It's always easier to add but much harder to remove without doing PWC's.  Depending on your ammonia level after allowing it to mix, I'll let you know how much (if any) more you may need to add.  Once you have the ammonia level where we want it -- and I believe I may aim for 4 ppm as an amount to maintain -- you'll need to test the ammonia tomorrow (and every day) and add just enough more ammonia to bring the level back up to 4 ppm if any was used.  If none was used, then test it the next day.  When you see a drop in the ammonia, report it here to be able to know how much more ammonia to add to bring the level back up to where we prefer to maintain it.  After about 10 to 12 days, you should start to see a noticeable increase in the nitrite.  At this time, you may test for both of these products and you'll see the nitrite spike to a certain high level after another 10 to 12 days and then slowly decline after this.  Keep adding just enough more ammonia to keep the level at the predetermined 4 ppm.  Towards to end of the cycle, as it's completing, you'll find that more and more ammonia is being used up every day after adding the make-up amount the previous day.  Very near the end, after adding the amount of ammonia to bring it back up to 4 ppm, the next day's ammonia level will read about 0.5 ppm or even 0.25 ppm.  When the next day's ammonia reading is zero after adding the needed amount of ammonia the previous day, and the next day's nitrite level is also zero, you'll know that there's now a sufficient amount of both types of nitrifying bacteria in your filters to be able to convert 4 ppm of ammonia.  This 4 ppm is usually a bit more, and is in most cases not any less, than a properly stocked tank's fish will produce in one day.  At this time, you can discontinue adding the household ammonia and feel free to add all of the fish you want to include in this tank, knowing that all of their ammonia will be converted to nitrite and then nitrate each day.  Your tank will be fully cycled.  As a cycle being able to convert 4 ppm of ammonia per day may be slightly more than your full stock of fish will produce in one day -- which may only be 3 ppm -- but this only means that your tank will be adequately cycled to handle the waste from all of your fish and if that waste is no more than 3 ppm. the bacteria populations will adjust (reduce) to quantities that can live on 3 ppm rather than 4 ppm -- a portion will starve out in readjusting, but you'll have at least as much bacteria to start with than you need.  The 4 ppm constant ammonia level finishes the nitrite cycling part faster as there's more food to feed on. 
       
      IMPORTANT now, before adding any fish -- this is the time at the end of the cycling period when you must change enough water to remove the excess nitrates which have been building up all along.           
       
      Thanks for the instructions on how to post pics.  I've been talked through this in the past, but never actually been "walked" through this, as with someone being right here next to me showing me exactly what needs to be done and how it's actually done.  I'm keeping your notes handy though, but I'll get to it as time permits -- and as a better browser will allow (I need a 'puter update); thanks.
       
      I think I covered everything on cycling a tank.  I know it's not easy to understand what's happening, but I hope my explanations through these steps makes it easier to be understood. 
       
      Oh yeah, Yes, I ONLY have 90 tanks right now < g >.  And yes, they're all at my house right now -- wall to wall in the basement and rack to rack, isle to isle.  For hobbyists who may be comparatively new to fish keeping, it should be explained that after a while many of us develop "MTS," or . . . Multi-Tank Syndrome.  Some hobbyist go to the extent of building their own fish rooms in their basements and others even go so far as to build separate fish houses in their backyards.  A very good friend of mine and a nationally know aquarist at one time had 150 tanks in operation before he retired,  Now he has about 50 tanks -- he had to cut back (he's 86 years old now).  Another good friend of mine who specialized in Killifish rented out a storefront and maintained 300 tanks.  He'd clean 10 tanks a day and by the end of the month he had them all cleaned and would start all over again in their maintenance.  He had to cut back too, as he took a fall off of a ladder and hurt himself.  Fortunately, he's okay now, but he's getting up there in years also.  What do I do with them?  -- I sell them to the local pet shops, submit them in the various clubs' auctions, distribute and trade them among fellow hobbyists and put them in shows.  There's always a market for home-grown tropical fish.  Numerous tanks are also needed to develop other strains of fish when line-breeding to enhance traits while restricting the genes from becoming too inbred (by mutually carrying the genes via cousins rather than by brothers and sisters).  After several generations of side-by-side breeding for these traits by related (but not too closely) fish carrying the same mutation, these cousins are then bred to each other to enhance the traits.  Once the line breeding produces only prodengy (offspring) displaying the desired new traits, the strain is said to be "fixed."  It takes a lot of tanks to carry and raise all the needed fish for developing new strain, which I enjoy doing.  Twenty five years ago I developed my own Koi Angelfish before I even knew it was in the stage of being developed by others.  My Koi was a prize-winning strain which took 1st in its Class in the American Cichlid Association's Convention back then.  I've since developed other Angelfish strains, such as Black Angels being derived out of a crossing "stripe-less" Angels, i.e., Dark Marbles first bred to be solid and Chocolate Angels first bred to the same characteristic, then crossed to create the solid Black (Most other Black Angels today will show darker stripes showing through the lighter overall black because they're developed from Black Lace, which were developed from the wild Silver/Black Striped Angel.  There are lots of things you can do with having many tanks, the imagination is limitless.
       
      Ray
       
             
       
      In a message dated 1/4/2015 3:59:33 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Funny you should mention the use of a lot of tap water.... Our water bill was doubled this cycle. My
      Husband wasn't thrilled but luckily water is the cheapest commodity. I will probably use the Aquavac for water changes but like you mentioned I'll get the siphon started then turn the tap off.  I used it to drain the tank last time but I didn't have the faucet adapter so my husband got it started. The hose is 50 feet and drains down to the utility sink in the basement. Even without the water going it drained pretty quick.  If I had multiple tanks to take care of I might look into the pump thing but this one tank is enough for me. 

      You ONLY have 90 tanks now? Are all of those tanks at your house now?  If you're not commercially breeding fish what do you do with all of them? I can't even imagine having 90 fish tanks...it's inconceivable to me. It sounds like you really love it and it brings you joy...that's what it's all about. 

      Adding pictures to the Yahoo groups page is easy(waaaayyy easier than taking care of aalllll those fish). 
      Once you log in, go to your Yahoo groups page and select Aquatic Life. Once there you'll see an icon for Photos on the  upper left side and you'll select that. Now you'll see an icon on the right for Albums. 
      If you select that you can create your album and after doing so it'll step you through selecting and uploading your opics to that album. In some groups you can email Pics as a part of your post but I see this group has that feature disabled. It's not a bad idea to disable it, cuts back on crap getting posted that may not be appropriate.

      I read a post on the frog group page that Petco was having the $1 a gallon sale so I went and got a 10 gallon tank to use in place of that 5 gal hex. Luckily I had the a Whisper filter, pump, gravel etc... I added a bottle of Safe Start and Prime and moved the Angels out of the 55 gal tank. Since that tank isn't cycled, I'm assuming it won't get cycled but that I'll do water changes however often they're  needed to keep the ammonia down?  When I do the water changes will I just treat it with Prime? For my wallets sake, I'm hoping I don't have to add a bottle of Safe Start every 2-3 days... 

      I know you've briefly gone over the steps I'll need to take with the household ammonia but would it be possible for you to give me something a little more detailed?  Like, will I be starting with the water and filters as they are now or would t be better to drain it again and start from scratch?  As we proceed, will I still have to do water changes on the 55 gal tank? I guess I still don't fully understand what happens when you do a fishless cycle. 

      Now that the tank will cycle w/o fish how is it decided how many fish can go in after the cycle finishes and when do they go in? When will the Angels go back in?





      On Jan 3, 2015, at 6:39 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:ô

       

      Re
      Hi Peg,
       
      Using 5 gallon buckets is the hard way to do water changes, unless you're really strong enough so that it doesn't bother you.  It's also very time consuming and some beginner hobbyists just give up on it at this point, feeling that it's too much work to have to do week after week.  Many of us, including myself, made water changes with buckets when we were just starting out, and when we were much younger < g >.  I'm glad for your sake that you got that AquaVac so that you can get away from carrying those buckets.  You're going to find though, that drawing water out of the tank with that water changer will use a lot of tap water.  One way to avoid that if possible is to start it running like that and then turn the faucet off and just let it syphon out the rest of the way, even though it will take longer.  By now, many of us use water pumps to remove the aquarium water and sometimes one to refill the tank, depending on the water change set-up we use.  On multiple tank set ups, one set of hoses and a pump is used to draw down the water while the previous tank is being filled, so that no time is wasted; it goes quite quickly.  All of the on-line aquarium supply houses carry a selection of water pumps of all sizes, or one can pick up a utility pump at Home Depot or Loews. 
       
      Trying to make this next long-story short, my biggest tanks now are a number of 125 gallon aquariums, but I had tanks up to 260 gallons when I needed them.  Besides these 125's I have several 100 gallon tanks, half a dozen 75 gallon tank, a dozen 50 gallon tanks, a few 55's, etc., etc.  I've cut way back from when I was commercially breeding fish and only have about 90 tanks right now (with a total volume of 3200 gallons).  Of course, I still breed fish right now as I thoroughly enjoy it.  At one time, a good number of years ago, I had a tropical fish store with a friend/partner of mine.  When I sold my half off to my partner, I went into importing fish, from Germany and Africa (Lake Malawi, Lake Victoria and Lake Tanganyika) and distributed them throughout the country (and as far as Australia).  It was never my actual profession as I was a printer, but I guess you could call it a second profession.  Probably spent as much time (or more) doing this as doing anything else.  When I retired from printing, I managed one of the largest Water Garden Suppliers dealing in ponds, their fish and their many plants, specializing in Water Lilies; each day was fun as it was totally enjoyable -- it certainly wasn't work.    Sorry, I don't have any pics in any folders, as no one ever taught me how to put photos up on line.  It's got to be really easy as everyone is doing it, but unless a person does this at least once -- by being walked through it -- it's all Greek, including all the internet terms.      
       
      I see you've found that the smaller the tank is, the harder it is to take care of.  Ammonia builds up a lot faster in a 5 gallon tank as compared to tank double that size.  As you don't yet know how much your fish will eat in 5 minutes, just start with a small amount -- more than just a certain number of flakes you can count on two hands.  If there's food left over after five minutes, cut back on the amount of food next time -- and the time after that -- until you get the idea of the proper amount.  A small aquarium fish's stomach might be the size of a garden pea; it doesn't  take much to satisfy the fish.  You'll never get to learn how much to feed if you keep giving more and waiting for the fish to eat that, and then give it more yet -- until the fish won't eat anymore.  You should never feed fish so much that they won't eat any more.  Fish don't know when to stop eating as they don't know that they'll be fed again the next day.  They'll keep eating as much as they can, while the opportunity presents itself.  It's not good for the fish to feed them this much.  It can even be a cause for a condition called "Bloat," which can ocassionally be fatal, depending on its actual cause.. 
       
      Yes, it can be a money pit if you let it.  Now that you have all the basic necessities, it shouldn't cost very much at all from here on in.  The major additions now would be more fish and maybe plants if you feel up to them.  None of this needs to (nor should) be done all at once anyway.  When the water level drops in the tank due to evaporation, none of the salt is lost.  Yes, you may replace water lost due to evaporation .  When adding new water to top the tank off because of this evaporation, you don't add any more salt.  The water parameters should tell you when to start doing PWC's, especially the nitrite which you don't want to allow to get too high, but even the ammonia should not be much above 4.0 ppm (3.0 ppm is better, although the cycle will take longer).  Too much of a drop in your KH will also tell you it's time to make a PWC.  You can start vacuuming after the second week -- and then, only do half the tank at a time, doing the other half the next week. 
       
      Ray  
       
        
      In a message dated 1/3/2015 4:46:09 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hey Ray!!
      My hubby picked-up the correct hose adapter and it's now on my utility sink waiting for me to
      take it for another spin. I put together a bin of things I may need when I go to use it so I don't have to 
      be running around looking for stuff while it's running or running around trying to find things so I can get started. I included a bowl and instant read digital thermometer so I could get as close as possible to the tank temp.  Carrying all those water buckets really took it out of me.   It wasn't so bad filling that little 5 gal bucket to take care of the 5 gal tank but the 55 wore me out. I can't even imagine how big your tanks are or how many you have. Not too long ago you mentioned breeding or something. Is that your profession?  How many tanks and how many did you own and do you own now?? I looked in the pics area thinking there might be some of all your tanks but there are so many folders that I never found it. 

      The 5 gallon hex was the original home for my African Dwarf Frogs. Even though they were teeny the tank was too small.  My first frog didn't make it and it was after that when I looked for someone to help guide me and found Suzy and Alyce. The next two frogs did better but Suzy really kept on me about moving them to a 10 gal aquarium. She knew that they'd just keep doing poorly in that 5 gal. 
      I had to wait until I had the funds to buy everything I needed and after I did they got moved but I still lost my boy frog.  My little girl Fannie is the only female I have now. She lives with the two boys in the 10 gal. Suzy and Alyce are now guiding me through the cycling of the tank.  With the 5 gal I had to do 50% water changes every other day just to fight the ammonia build up. 

      Losing the frogs in that tank and knowing how hard it was to keep things alive in it were

      (Message over 64 KB, truncated)
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56373 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/5/2015
      Subject: Re: Numbers for 1/5
      AOL Email
      Do you mean the 10 gallon ?
       
      In a message dated 1/5/2015 3:51:33 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      These numbers are for the 20 gal tank

      Ph 7.6, Hph 8, Ammonia 0, nitrites 0, nitrates 5, KH 7

      I sent the ammonia number for the 55 gal in separate email

      Sent from my iPhone

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56374 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 1/5/2015
      Subject: Re: Numbers for 1/5
      Yep,.. Just get fingered it. Sorry for the confusion!

      Peg
      Soon Opening: Hoopin' It Up Designs
                                Custom Embroidery & Embellishments

      On Jan 5, 2015, at 4:07 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Do you mean the 10 gallon ?
       
      In a message dated 1/5/2015 3:51:33 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      These numbers are for the 20 gal tank

      Ph 7.6, Hph 8, Ammonia 0, nitrites 0, nitrates 5, KH 7

      I sent the ammonia number for the 55 gal in separate email

      Sent from my iPhone

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56375 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/5/2015
      Subject: Re: Numbers for 1/5
      AOL Email
      Good Numbers!   Just keep an eye on it and do a small water change the minute you see any increase.  As always, keep updating on the numbers every day.  I could let you know how much to change if/when the ammonia starts to go up at all.
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/5/2015 5:56:16 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Yep,.. Just get fingered it. Sorry for the confusion!

      Peg
      Soon Opening: Hoopin' It Up Designs
                                Custom Embroidery & Embellishments

      On Jan 5, 2015, at 4:07 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Do you mean the 10 gallon ?
       
      In a message dated 1/5/2015 3:51:33 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      These numbers are for the 20 gal tank

      Ph 7.6, Hph 8, Ammonia 0, nitrites 0, nitrates 5, KH 7

      I sent the ammonia number for the 55 gal in separate email

      Sent from my iPhone

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56376 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 1/5/2015
      Subject: Re: Question on Fluval set-up
      Hi Peg,

        Sorry for my late response-I'm still a little confused as I can only find 4 pictures of yours in an album entitled "Peg's Pics" but none of them appear to show the waterfall decoration in use yet but your description implies it is in use-am I barking up the wrong tree here?

        John<o)))<

      On 3 January 2015 at 17:31, Peg Yruegas peg@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      Thank you! 
      Did you see the waterfall piece on the far left? The illusion of the water "falling" is the bubbles from the air stone traveling back along the bottom and up the back.
      The top of the waterfall is about 2-3 inches above and 8-10 inches to the side if the intake. So, the bubbles are released above the intake. I'm hoping that's ok for he Fluval.

      Sent from my iPhone

      On Jan 3, 2015, at 6:00 AM, SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Yes, I've found them Peg thank you. All your hard work is paying off as it looks very nice.

        John<o)))<

      On 2 January 2015 at 22:52, Peg Yruegas peg@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      Thank you. I put a pic in my folder which shows the "waterfall" and the Fluval intake ting do you can see how it's set up. 

      There's another piece on the right which is s cave and it sends bubbles up from 2 places. I didn't connect it because it makes too much noise.!

      Sent from my iPhone

      On Jan 2, 2015, at 4:21 PM, ptimlin@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      The idea is that if you get excessive bubbles going into the intake of the Fluval you may cause too much air to build up and break the siphon causing the fluval to stop pumping. 


      So as far as the waterfall is concerned, as long as it isn't creating a lot of bubbles then it shouldn't be a problem. You can tell if the Fluval is taking in bubbles as they a distinct "pssssst" sound when they hit the impeller. Occasional "psssts" are usually fine. But more than one a second or two you might want to space them out a bit.

      Also, waterfall type water flow, especially the output from power filters, do not usually create many bubbles unless they are much higher than the water surface. Normally in a tank this isn't an issue unless you allow the water level (from evaporation) to fall too low. If you make sure you keep the water level up, it shouldn't be an issue.

      Patrick



      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56377 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 1/5/2015
      Subject: Re: Question on Fluval set-up
      It wasn't in use in my pic (sorry) but after I read your response I looked at it and saw that the top of the waterfall where the bubbles come out is up above and to the left of the input for the Fluval. Since the bubbles 
      come out and float up to the top it appeared it wouldn't be a problem. I started using it and I haven't heard tes
      any pssssst's. Thank you for looking at it though. 

      Can I ask you another question about the Fluval? Mine has 3 media baskets and came with Fluval brand media. Can you use media made by other companies? I'm interested in the product by Seachem called "Purigen."  Just wondering if I could use it in the Fluval?

      Peg
      Soon Opening: Hoopin' It Up Designs
                                Custom Embroidery & Embellishments

      On Jan 5, 2015, at 6:43 PM, SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Hi Peg,

        Sorry for my late response-I'm still a little confused as I can only find 4 pictures of yours in an album entitled "Peg's Pics" but none of them appear to show the waterfall decoration in use yet but your description implies it is in use-am I barking up the wrong tree here?

        John<o)))<

      On 3 January 2015 at 17:31, Peg Yruegas peg@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      Thank you! 
      Did you see the waterfall piece on the far left? The illusion of the water "falling" is the bubbles from the air stone traveling back along the bottom and up the back.
      The top of the waterfall is about 2-3 inches above and 8-10 inches to the side if the intake. So, the bubbles are released above the intake. I'm hoping that's ok for he Fluval.

      Sent from my iPhone

      On Jan 3, 2015, at 6:00 AM, SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Yes, I've found them Peg thank you. All your hard work is paying off as it looks very nice.

        John<o)))<

      On 2 January 2015 at 22:52, Peg Yruegas peg@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      Thank you. I put a pic in my folder which shows the "waterfall" and the Fluval intake ting do you can see how it's set up. 

      There's another piece on the right which is s cave and it sends bubbles up from 2 places. I didn't connect it because it makes too much noise.!

      Sent from my iPhone

      On Jan 2, 2015, at 4:21 PM, ptimlin@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      The idea is that if you get excessive bubbles going into the intake of the Fluval you may cause too much air to build up and break the siphon causing the fluval to stop pumping. 


      So as far as the waterfall is concerned, as long as it isn't creating a lot of bubbles then it shouldn't be a problem. You can tell if the Fluval is taking in bubbles as they a distinct "pssssst" sound when they hit the impeller. Occasional "psssts" are usually fine. But more than one a second or two you might want to space them out a bit.

      Also, waterfall type water flow, especially the output from power filters, do not usually create many bubbles unless they are much higher than the water surface. Normally in a tank this isn't an issue unless you allow the water level (from evaporation) to fall too low. If you make sure you keep the water level up, it shouldn't be an issue.

      Patrick



      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56378 From: deenerzz Date: 1/5/2015
      Subject: Re: Question on Fluval set-up
      I cannot comment on the Purigen but as for the filter yes you can change media to other brands.  I would keep the Biomax media though.  That gives the benificial bacteria place to live and work. The ammonia remover and carbon are optional to me.  Reason I say optional is if the tank is cycled and balanced with regular water changes I do not need those. I usually put more of the Biomax type media or other media for bacteria to grow on in those baskets once the ammonia and carbon removers are used up.
       
      Mike

      Can I ask you another question about the Fluval? Mine has 3 media baskets and came with Fluval brand media. Can you use media made by other companies? I'm interested in the product by Seachem called "Purigen."  Just wondering if I could use it in the Fluval?

      Peg



      -----Original Message-----
      From: Peg Yruegas peg@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
      To: AquaticLife <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Mon, Jan 5, 2015 6:14 pm
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Question on Fluval set-up

       
      It wasn't in use in my pic (sorry) but after I read your response I looked at it and saw that the top of the waterfall where the bubbles come out is up above and to the left of the input for the Fluval. Since the bubbles 
      come out and float up to the top it appeared it wouldn't be a problem. I started using it and I haven't heard tes
      any pssssst's. Thank you for looking at it though. 

      Can I ask you another question about the Fluval? Mine has 3 media baskets and came with Fluval brand media. Can you use media made by other companies? I'm interested in the product by Seachem called "Purigen."  Just wondering if I could use it in the Fluval?

      Peg
      Soon Opening: Hoopin' It Up Designs
                                Custom Embroidery & Embellishments

      On Jan 5, 2015, at 6:43 PM, SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       
      Hi Peg,

        Sorry for my late response-I'm still a little confused as I can only find 4 pictures of yours in an album entitled "Peg's Pics" but none of them appear to show the waterfall decoration in use yet but your description implies it is in use-am I barking up the wrong tree here?

        John<o)))<

      On 3 January 2015 at 17:31, Peg Yruegas peg@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       
      Thank you! 
      Did you see the waterfall piece on the far left? The illusion of the water "falling" is the bubbles from the air stone traveling back along the bottom and up the back.
      The top of the waterfall is about 2-3 inches above and 8-10 inches to the side if the intake. So, the bubbles are released above the intake. I'm hoping that's ok for he Fluval.

      Sent from my iPhone

      On Jan 3, 2015, at 6:00 AM, SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       
      Yes, I've found them Peg thank you. All your hard work is paying off as it looks very nice.

        John<o)))<

      On 2 January 2015 at 22:52, Peg Yruegas peg@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       
      Thank you. I put a pic in my folder which shows the "waterfall" and the Fluval intake ting do you can see how it's set up. 

      There's another piece on the right which is s cave and it sends bubbles up from 2 places. I didn't connect it because it makes too much noise.!

      Sent from my iPhone

      On Jan 2, 2015, at 4:21 PM, ptimlin@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       
      The idea is that if you get excessive bubbles going into the intake of the Fluval you may cause too much air to build up and break the siphon causing the fluval to stop pumping. 

      So as far as the waterfall is concerned, as long as it isn't creating a lot of bubbles then it shouldn't be a problem. You can tell if the Fluval is taking in bubbles as they a distinct "pssssst" sound when they hit the impeller. Occasional "psssts" are usually fine. But more than one a second or two you might want to space them out a bit.

      Also, waterfall type water flow, especially the output from power filters, do not usually create many bubbles unless they are much higher than the water surface. Normally in a tank this isn't an issue unless you allow the water level (from evaporation) to fall too low. If you make sure you keep the water level up, it shouldn't be an issue.

      Patrick


      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56379 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 1/5/2015
      Subject: Re: Questions on re-establishing tank
      I'm using Austin Clear Ammonia. The labeling didn't state the percentage. I so I looked up the MSDS. 
      It states Ammonium hydroxide 1.0% by wt.  There are other numbers but appear to be related to exposure limits.

      Peg
      Soon Opening: Hoopin' It Up Designs
                                Custom Embroidery & Embellishments

      On Jan 5, 2015, at 12:51 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Okay, since you need the ammonia level higher to start your cycle, you'll need to add more to increase this "1.0 ppm" level.  I'm sure the cycle has already started though, for you to have nitrite present.  Just how much ammonia was consumed between yesterday and today though, is very uncertain.  Also, while I tried to make things easier by just adding teaspoons, I already did mention that the size of drops can vary depending on the size of the openings in droppers.  Still, I've found no info saying that a teaspoon holds any less than 50 drop -- and some sources say 70 or even 98 drops.  Three teaspoons should have been enough to bring the ammonia up to at least 2.5 ppm yesterday.  When you read this, add 3 more teaspoons of ammonia and post a number of what this level reaches after allowing this new ammonia to circulate for about 20 minutes.  I'll try to get back here within 2 hours, and we'll see if you need to add more.  While most sources state that household ammonia is a 10% solution, others say from 5% to 10% and yet others say between 2% and 10%.  With this much possible variation, it would be helpful if you would post this ammonia's strength (by percentage on the label)  here to give some idea of the solution's concentration.
       
      Ray
         
       
      In a message dated 1/5/2015 12:21:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      I checked the ammonia in the 55 gal this morning. It's now at "1".  I have not added any
      Additional ammonia since the initial 3 tsp. 

      Peg
      Soon Opening: Hoopin' It Up Designs
                                Custom Embroidery & Embellishments

      On Jan 5, 2015, at 8:41 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Just wanting to assure you, that fish don't have long memories although the older they get the greater their fear will be of the net -- even if they were never netted before.  The younger they are, the less fear they'll show.  Oh, so the Angels are about 2" in diameter (just wanted to get some idea of the bioload they represent).  Incidentally, a much less stressful way of capturing fish is to submerge an open plastic fish bag into the tank and guide the fish into it with a net.  Then quickly close the bag before the fish can turn around and get out.  Just move the bag from one tank to the next after that and if you need to make more room in the tank that the fish is going to, just spill most of the water out of the bag back into the first tank with your hand keeping the bag mostly closed.  A solid clear container will also work, like a glass jar, but anything that's opaque will easily wise the fish up to his being captured.   Another "incidentally,"  it's best you added some gravel to the 10 gallon tank -- not because of it holding bacteria, but because it will put the angels more at ease as opposed to having a bare glass bottom.  On the time it takes for cycling a tank, I thought you already knew that, but since you ask a fishless cycle takes between 4 and 6 weeks -- more often closer to six weeks.  There's where you can add Safe Start (or, Dr. Tim's One and Only -- or a combination of this and the product Dawn prefers).  You can't go wrong that way, and any bacteria supplement will only help speed matters along as long as you supply them with ammonia.  For cycling a tank with fish, it can take even longer as you can't allow large amounts of organic wastes to accumulate.  With needing to do PWC's, even just to keep the nitrate level down once that starts to elevate, this limits the amount of ammonia in the water which the bacteria need to thrive on as you'll need to keep removing much of it.
       
      Okay, the numbers for the 10 gallon look just fine.  Check them each day, although you can leave the GH out as that remains constant.  Add prime each day and if the tank requires a PWC, add the Prime afterwards.  As you're not going to be cycling this tank, do PWC's on it as soon as you see any elevation in the ammonia, which could be every day, but keeping the ammonia at an absolute minimum each day should only require minimum PWC's.  Still, let us know what these numbers are.  As for the numbers in your 55, it's off to a good start although it's unusual to have the nitrite this high so early, when your ammonia is only at 0.25 ppm.  Still, this can't pose any danger when there's sn no fish in the tank. To establish exactly how much household ammonia will bring the ammonia level up to 4.0 ppm, it would have been preferred to test for it right after time (perhaps 20 minutes) was allowed for it to be thoroughly mixed in with the tank water.  Give us a test result for it now and don't add any more ammonia until I can evaluate it.  Your Angelfish sound very nice.  Let me add, that as each one has their own "personality," they'll all behave slightly different within the confines of Angelfish behavior. 
       
      With having a good number of tanks needing maintenance, one needs to have a system in place to attend them all on a regular basis.  Naturally, time just wouldn't permit attending to all the tanks in a day (or two), so a schedule needs to be determined as to which tanks get their weekly maintenance on which days throughout the week or throughout the month.  Once that's planned out -- and it's always good to draw up a chart, like a calendar, to keep a better check on the scheduling -- it makes things much easier.  As for breeding, if you happen to add some livebearers (Guppies, Swordtails, Platies, etc.) somewhere down the line after getting you 55 squared away, they'll do the breeding for you without your having to do anything yourself.  As any fry not finding shelter will be eaten, you'll need to remove them and place them in their own tank for raising,  This is how hobbyists first develop MTS, and how you may likely develop this syndrome also, after a while.  Other uses for more tanks than would seem needed just for maintaining a community tank or two is for maintaining species that are threatened and/or endangered in the wild.  I'm presently maintaining several tanks of endangered species, sometimes with some of them breeding and I then distribute them to other hobbyists who also maintain some endangered fishes.  Sometimes these fish are threatened in the wild because of their habitat being destroyed.  If they go extinct in the wild, with keeping captive populations in the aquarium, there will be stocks of them to replenish their native environments if and when they can be restored.  There are some Pleco's more ideally suited for the small aquarium and which get to a maximum size of around 6".  They're not "gross," and do a nice job of keeping the tank free of most types of algae.  The common Pleco gets huge however, and should preferable be housed only in very large tanks to prevent from stunting them, which is why I suggested the one we were just discussing might be best moved to a larger aquarium.                     
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/5/2015 2:30:45 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      I know you keep telling me fishless cycling is the best and that its less stressful for the fish but 
      I tell ya Ray, my yellow angel had just started to trust me, she wasn't going to hide when she saw 
      approaching and she was finally eating when I put food in for her.  I feared netting her and moving her 
      to a temp tank would just spook her even more. I don't know if fish hold grudges but hopefully she'll 
      come around again once she gets back in her permanent home. How long does a fishless cycle usually take??  I've only been thru one cycle and that's the one I just finished with my frogs. I was so happy yesterday when the nitrates spiked and the ammonia dropped to zero. I tested the new 10 gal tank
      Tonight. The numbers were Ph 7.6, HPh 8, Ammonia 0, Nitrites 0, Nitrates 5, GH8, KH 6   I'm glad I had almost everything needed to get the 10 gal going ....well with the exception of the tank. That worked out pretty good. That sale came Along at a good time! ;p


      Today, the numbers for the 55 gal tank were:  Ph 7.6, HPh 8.2, Ammonia .25,  Nitrites 2, Nitrates 40, GH 8, KH 4.  I added 3 tsp of ammonia after I tested the water. I'll test in the morning and let you know how the added ammonia affected the numbers. The Angels from tip of nose to end of tail are about 3 inches and 
      from bottom of fin to top of fin about 4 inches. They have those long things that hang down like whiskers... 
      I don't know what they're called but I didn't count those. They're pretty nice sized but not adult size yet.  I live Angels. They're one of my favorites but the 2 big ones I re-homed were kind of aggressive and 
      have me afraid to get anymore. They terrorized the snails and drove the little fish to hide.  They were intimidating and used fin-Nipping to get the fish out of their space.  The bigger one, I believed to be 
      A male was marked like a tiger. He looked like he was velvet, just beautiful. He would "patrol" an area
      While the other one was hanging out and then they'd switch places.   Very odd behavior. 
      I didn't know until very recently that they were part of the Cichlid family. Sounds like you came up with some beauties.

      It's hard to imagine 90 tanks in 1 house. My head would be swimming as I tried to remember what I
      Needed to do with each. Breeding sounds interesting but I have no idea how it's done or what needs to happen.  Sometime when you get pics up, I'd like to see them! Lol!!! Sounds like the new group member
      Has interests similar to yours. He was talking about the big Pleco and I remembered the ones that are up at our Jacks Pets. People have bought them and they get HUGE and the people can't deal with them. They have some that are 2 feet long. They're so gross. I had some pics of them. I'll have to see if I can find them. 
      They gross me out. 

      I





      Sent from my iPad

      On Jan 4, 2015, at 6:56 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Alright Peg, you've made the best choice by choosing fish-less cycling for the 55 gallon.  Yes, as you found out, large water changes can add to your water bill.  Depending on which part of there country you live in, your water can be almost as cheap as air or it can get rather expensive for comparably small quantities of it.  As am example, I'm charged $4.12 for each 100 cubic feet (748 gallons) of water -- plus the monthly $8.85 facilities charge no matter how much or how little water I use.  The "facilities" charge pays for the infrastructure of pipes getting the water to my house, the pumping and filtration of the water at the plant and anything else that the water company passes on to their consumers.  By this you can see that I'd use almost 400 cubic feet of water a week if I did 90% PWC's on all tanks each week, or 1600 cubic feet per month, at a charge of $65.92 each month.  However, 24 years ago I switched to my private well -- of which this water is exceedingly better for maintaining and raising fish -- and it only costs me the price of the electricity use to pump the water; next to nothing.  We had another moderator on this Group up until 5 or 6 years ago, who lived in Louisiana.  His water bill was practically nothing. 
      Anyhow, with cycling the 55 gallon tank, you will do no PWC's until the cycle's complete.  At that time, you'll need to do one large PWC to the extent of removing all of the excess nitrate, at least anything over over 40 ppm and preferably even more -- enough to get the nitrate down to 20 ppm (or even lower) is always nice.  When that time comes, just give us a test reading of what your nitrate level is, and we'll tell you exactly how much water to change.  At this time, you'll add your two Angelfish and three Cory's back into the 55 and any other fishes you also want to include.  
       
      Now, getting to the 10 gallon tank; you will not be cycling this tank but will just be relying on PWC's to keep the water free of contaminants.  Therefore, there's no need to add Safe Start, but keepi4 Prime in there all the time (adding daily) would be helpful.  Yeah, I told you abouit Petco's $1 per gallon sales -- I just didn't know when to expect them.  Can't beat those prices, and they usually have these sales at least 3 times a year.  That you've already added Safe Start to this 10 gallon tank is fine, although the bacteria may starve out because of very minimal amount of ammonia being kept in the water all of the time.  No need to add any more Safe Start to this tank.  Yes, you will need to take daily ammonia tests and change enough water in quantity and in intervals to keep the ammonia level as low as possible.  You already have the idea.  You may report the ammonia test results for this tank here and I'll tell you exactly how much water needs to be changed.  I see you added the Whisper filter to enable any nitrifying bacteria that's able to grow, a chance to do just that by populating the media -- with as little ammonia as we're going to allow.  It appears you added the fish this afternoon, please post the ammonia level for this tank tomorrow.  I don't expect it to have changed very much, but we need to have a figure to work with when taken by surprise.   BTW, while on these fish, about what size are these Angelfish -- their body diameter excluding the fins?  How big are the Cory's?
       
      Now, back to cycling the 55.  No need to change any water, even now.  I'll go over the steps once more.  Let me know if you need anything else explained after I'm done -- if it's not very clear.  First, add 3 drops per gallon of clear (not sudsy) household ammonia to this tank.  As a teaspoon hold about 50 drops, 3 teaspoons of this ammonia for starters.  After giving it some time to thoroughly mix, do an ammonia test.  It should be near 3 ppm, but with this much ammonia it probably will not exceed this.  You may even need to add more, but I won't tell you to do this initially as I don't want your ammonia level too high either.  It's always easier to add but much harder to remove without doing PWC's.  Depending on your ammonia level after allowing it to mix, I'll let you know how much (if any) more you may need to add.  Once you have the ammonia level where we want it -- and I believe I may aim for 4 ppm as an amount to maintain -- you'll need to test the ammonia tomorrow (and every day) and add just enough more ammonia to bring the level back up to 4 ppm if any was used.  If none was used, then test it the next day.  When you see a drop in the ammonia, report it here to be able to know how much more ammonia to add to bring the level back up to where we prefer to maintain it.  After about 10 to 12 days, you should start to see a noticeable increase in the nitrite.  At this time, you may test for both of these products and you'll see the nitrite spike to a certain high level after another 10 to 12 days and then slowly decline after this.  Keep adding just enough more ammonia to keep the level at the predetermined 4 ppm.  Towards to end of the cycle, as it's completing, you'll find that more and more ammonia is being used up every day after adding the make-up amount the previous day.  Very near the end, after adding the amount of ammonia to bring it back up to 4 ppm, the next day's ammonia level will read about 0.5 ppm or even 0.25 ppm.  When the next day's ammonia reading is zero after adding the needed amount of ammonia the previous day, and the next day's nitrite level is also zero, you'll know that there's now a sufficient amount of both types of nitrifying bacteria in your filters to be able to convert 4 ppm of ammonia.  This 4 ppm is usually a bit more, and is in most cases not any less, than a properly stocked tank's fish will produce in one day.  At this time, you can discontinue adding the household ammonia and feel free to add all of the fish you want to include in this tank, knowing that all of their ammonia will be converted to nitrite and then nitrate each day.  Your tank will be fully cycled.  As a cycle being able to convert 4 ppm of ammonia per day may be slightly more than your full stock of fish will produce in one day -- which may only be 3 ppm -- but this only means that your tank will be adequately cycled to handle the waste from all of your fish and if that waste is no more than 3 ppm. the bacteria populations will adjust (reduce) to quantities that can live on 3 ppm rather than 4 ppm -- a portion will starve out in readjusting, but you'll have at least as much bacteria to start with than you need.  The 4 ppm constant ammonia level finishes the nitrite cycling part faster as there's more food to feed on. 
       
      IMPORTANT now, before adding any fish -- this is the time at the end of the cycling period when you must change enough water to remove the excess nitrates which have been building up all along.           
       
      Thanks for the instructions on how to post pics.  I've been talked through this in the past, but never actually been "walked" through this, as with someone being right here next to me showing me exactly what needs to be done and how it's actually done.  I'm keeping your notes handy though, but I'll get to it as time permits -- and as a better browser will allow (I need a 'puter update); thanks.
       
      I think I covered everything on cycling a tank.  I know it's not easy to understand what's happening, but I hope my explanations through these steps makes it easier to be understood. 
       
      Oh yeah, Yes, I ONLY have 90 tanks right now < g >.  And yes, they're all at my house right now -- wall to wall in the basement and rack to rack, isle to isle.  For hobbyists who may be comparatively new to fish keeping, it should be explained that after a while many of us develop "MTS," or . . . Multi-Tank Syndrome.  Some hobbyist go to the extent of building their own fish rooms in their basements and others even go so far as to build separate fish houses in their backyards.  A very good friend of mine and a nationally know aquarist at one time had 150 tanks in operation before he retired,  Now he has about 50 tanks -- he had to cut back (he's 86 years old now).  Another good friend of mine who specialized in Killifish rented out a storefront and maintained 300 tanks.  He'd clean 10 tanks a day and by the end of the month he had them all cleaned and would start all over again in their maintenance.  He had to cut back too, as he took a fall off of a ladder and hurt himself.  Fortunately, he's okay now, but he's getting up there in years also.  What do I do with them?  -- I sell them to the local pet shops, submit them in the various clubs' auctions, distribute and trade them among fellow hobbyists and put them in shows.  There's always a market for home-grown tropical fish.  Numerous tanks are also needed to develop other strains of fish when line-breeding to enhance traits while restricting the genes from becoming too inbred (by mutually carrying the genes via cousins rather than by brothers and sisters).  After several generations of side-by-side breeding for these traits by related (but not too closely) fish carrying the same mutation, these cousins are then bred to each other to enhance the traits.  Once the line breeding produces only prodengy (offspring) displaying the desired new traits, the strain is said to be "fixed."  It takes a lot of tanks to carry and raise all the needed fish for developing new strain, which I enjoy doing.  Twenty five years ago I developed my own Koi Angelfish before I even knew it was in the stage of being developed by others.  My Koi was a prize-winning strain which took 1st in its Class in the American Cichlid Association's Convention back then.  I've since developed other Angelfish strains, such as Black Angels being derived out of a crossing "stripe-less" Angels, i.e., Dark Marbles first bred to be solid and Chocolate Angels first bred to the same characteristic, then crossed to create the solid Black (Most other Black Angels today will show darker stripes showing through the lighter overall black because they're developed from Black Lace, which were developed from the wild Silver/Black Striped Angel.  There are lots of things you can do with having many tanks, the imagination is limitless.
       
      Ray
       
             
       
      In a message dated 1/4/2015 3:59:33 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Funny you should mention the use of a lot of tap water.... Our water bill was doubled this cycle. My
      Husband wasn't thrilled but luckily water is the cheapest commodity. I will probably use the Aquavac for water changes but like you mentioned I'll get the siphon started then turn the tap off.  I used it to drain the tank last time but I didn't have the faucet adapter so my husband got it started. The hose is 50 feet and drains down to the utility sink in the basement. Even without the water going it drained pretty quick.  If I had multiple tanks to take care of I might look into the pump thing but this one tank is enough for me. 

      You ONLY have 90 tanks now? Are all of those tanks at your house now?  If you're not commercially breeding fish what do you do with all of them? I can't even imagine having 90 fish tanks...it's inconceivable to me. It sounds like you really love it and it brings you joy...that's what it's all about. 

      Adding pictures to the Yahoo groups page is easy(waaaayyy easier than taking care of aalllll those fish). 
      Once you log in, go to your Yahoo groups page and select Aquatic Life. Once there you'll see an icon for Photos on the  upper left side and you'll select that. Now you'll see an icon on the right for Albums. 
      If you select that you can create your album and after doing so it'll step you through selecting and uploading your opics to that album. In some groups you can email Pics as a part of your post but I see this group has that feature disabled. It's not a bad idea to disable it, cuts back on crap getting posted that may not be appropriate.

      I read a post on the frog group page that Petco was having the $1 a gallon sale so I went and got a 10 gallon tank to use in place of that 5 gal hex. Luckily I had the a Whisper filter, pump, gravel etc... I added a bottle of Safe Start and Prime and moved the Angels out of the 55 gal tank. Since that tank isn't cycled, I'm assuming it won't get cycled but that I'll do water changes however often they're  needed to keep the ammonia down?  When I do the water changes will I just treat it with Prime? For my wallets sake, I'm hoping I don't have to add a bottle of Safe Start every 2-3 days... 

      I know you've briefly gone over the steps I'll need to take with the household ammonia but would it be possible for you to give me something a little more detailed?  Like, will I be starting with the water and filters as they are now or would t be better to drain it again and start from scratch?  As we proceed, will I still have to do water changes on the 55 gal tank? I guess I still don't fully understand what happens when you do a fishless cycle. 

      Now that the tank will cycle w/o fish how is it decided how many fish can go in after the cycle finishes and when do they go in? When will the Angels go back in?





      On Jan 3, 2015, at 6:39 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:ô

       

      Re
      Hi Peg,
       
      Using 5 gallon buckets is the hard way to do water changes, unless you're really strong enough so that it doesn't bother you.  It's also very time consuming and some beginner hobbyists just give up on it at this point, feeling that it's too much work to have to do week after week.  Many of us, including myself, made water changes with buckets when we were just starting out, and when we were much younger < g >.  I'm glad for your sake that you got that AquaVac so that you can get away from carrying those buckets.  You're going to find though, that drawing water out of the tank with that water changer will use a lot of tap water.  One way to avoid that if possible is to start it running like that and then turn the faucet off and just let it syphon out the rest of the way, even though it will take longer.  By now, many of us use water pumps to remove the aquarium water and sometimes one to refill the tank, depending on the water change set-up we use.  On multiple tank set ups, one set of hoses and a pump is used to draw down the water while the previous tank is being filled, so that no time is wasted; it goes quite quickly.  All of the on-line aquarium supply houses carry a selection of water pumps of all sizes, or one can pick up a utility pump at Home Depot or Loews. 
       
      Trying to make this next long-story short, my biggest tanks now are a number of 125 gallon aquariums, but I had tanks up to 260 gallons when I needed them.  Besides these 125's I have several 100 gallon tanks, half a dozen 75 gallon tank, a dozen 50 gallon tanks, a few 55's, etc., etc.  I've cut way back from when I was commercially breeding fish and only have about 90 tanks right now (with a total volume of 3200 gallons).  Of course, I still breed fish right now as I thoroughly enjoy it.  At one time, a good number of years ago, I had a tropical fish store with a friend/partner of mine.  When I sold my half off to my partner, I went into importing fish, from Germany and Africa (Lake Malawi, Lake Victoria and Lake Tanganyika) and distributed them throughout the country (and as far as Australia).  It was never my actual profession as I was a printer, but I guess you could call it a second profession.  Probably spent as much time (or more) doing this as doing anything else.  When I retired from printing, I managed one of the largest Water Garden Suppliers dealing in ponds, their fish and their many plants, specializing in Water Lilies; each day was fun as it was totally enjoyable -- it certainly wasn't work.    Sorry, I don't have any pics in any folders, as no one ever taught me how to put photos up on line.  It's got to be really easy as everyone is doing it, but unless a person does this at least once -- by being walked through it -- it's all Greek, including all the internet terms.      
       
      I see you've found that the smaller the tank is, the harder it is to take care of.  Ammonia builds up a lot faster in a 5 gallon tank as compared to tank double that size.  As you don't yet know how much your fish will eat in 5 minutes, just start with a small amount -- more than just a certain number of flakes you can count on two hands.  If there's food left over after five minutes, cut back on the amount of food next time -- and the time after that -- until you get the idea of the proper amount.  A small aquarium fish's stomach might be the size of a garden pea; it doesn't  take much to satisfy the fish.  You'll never get to learn how much to feed if you keep giving more and waiting for the fish to eat that, and then give it more yet -- until the fish won't eat anymore.  You should never feed fish so much that they won't eat any more.  Fish don't know when to stop eating as they don't know that they'll be fed again the next day.  They'll keep eating as much as they can, while the opportunity presents itself.  It's not good for the fish to feed them this much.  It can even be a cause for a condition called "Bloat," which can ocassionally be fatal, depending on its actual cause.. 
       
      Yes, it can be a money pit if you let it.  Now that you have all the basic necessities, it shouldn't cost very much at all from here on in.  The major additions now would be more fish and maybe plants if you feel up to them.  None of this needs to (nor should) be done all at once anyway.  When the water level drops in the tank due to evaporation, none of the salt is lost.  Yes, you may replace water lost due to evaporation .  When adding new water to top the tank off because of this evaporation, you don't add any more salt.  The water parameters should tell you when to start doing PWC's, especially the nitrite which you don't want to allow to get too high, but even the ammonia should not be much above 4.0 ppm (3.0 ppm is better, although the cycle will take longer).  Too much of a drop in your KH will also tell you it's time to make a PWC.  You can start vacuuming after the second week -- and then, only do half the tank at a time, doing the other half the next week. 
       
      Ray  
       
        
      In a message dated 1/3/2015 4:46:09 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hey Ray!!
      My hubby picked-up the correct hose adapter and it's now on my utility sink waiting for me to
      take it for another spin. I put together a bin of things I may need when I go to use it so I don't have to 
      be running around looking for stuff while it's running or running around trying to find things so I can get started. I included a bowl and instant read digital thermometer so I could get as close as possible to the tank temp.  Carrying all those water buckets really took it out of me.   It wasn't so bad filling that little 5 gal bucket to take care of the 5 gal tank but the 55 wore me out. I can't even imagine how big your tanks are or how many you have. Not too long ago you mentioned breeding or something. Is that your profession?  How many tanks and how many did you own and do you own now?? I looked in the pics area thinking there might be some of all your tanks but there are so many folders that I never found it. 

      The 5 gallon hex was the original home for my African Dwarf Frogs. Even though they were teeny the tank was too small.  My first frog didn't make it and it was after that when I looked for someone to help guide me and found Suzy and Alyce. The next two frogs did better but Suzy really kept on me about moving them to a 10 gal aquarium. She knew that they'd just keep doing poorly in that 5 gal. 
      I had to wait until I had the funds to buy everything I needed and after I did they got moved but I still lost my boy frog.  My little girl Fannie is the only female I have now. She lives with the two boys in the 10 gal. Suzy and Alyce are now guiding me through the cycling of the tank.  With the 5 gal I had to do 50% water changes every other day just to fight the ammonia build up. 

      Losing the frogs in that tank and knowing how hard it was to keep things alive in it were my biggest reason to refrain from putting the Angels in there. They are way bigger than the frogs and I know how
      S
      You said you processed a refund but will you re-charge me when the pkg arrives??

      Sent from my iPhone't go hide. That same night I put food in the feeding ring and he ate with me standing there watching him. I hated the thought of netting him, moving him and starting all over with him traumatized again. He's just trusting me and I don't want to take the chance he'll never get past that. The other one isn't as timid or wasn't as traumatized, just this one guy. 

      Having these two alone in this tank has helped me learn about feeding them. You told me to only feed what they can eat in 5 minutes but that's hard to gauge when I have no experience or no reference point, nothing to look at to tell me ok they're good with 10 pieces of flake food but 15 is too many etc... I've been feeding them by putting 3-4 pieces into the feeding ring. After they get eaten I'll add a few more and I do this until they stop eating. After a few minutes I've been scooping out the leftovers with a brine shrimp net. 

      I haven't started vacuuming the gravel yet or doing any water changes. I wasn't quite sure when those activities should start.  After dinner I'm going to get three Cory cats to clean up the bottom. I'm not planning to add anything else until after the cycle.  When it is time to get more,  I want to keep only non-aggressive, community fish. I had luck with fish coming from Petsmart so I will prob stay with them. I do want to set up a 19 gal quarantine tanks but I've got to hold off on spending for awhile. By the time the tank gets cycled I should be able to set it up but even then it'll have to be cycled too won't it?  Fish keeping has been an expensive hobby. My husband told me last night how much I've spent 
      In it in the last month and a half and my jaw hit the floor. He feels two tanks in our living room are enough. The funds I've used to get them going took a bite from savings.  His exact words "these aquariums are a money pit."  For the next 6-8 weeks I'll concentrate on getting through the cycle and just learning to take care of and clean up after the 5 fish.  I hope 5 will be a good number to cycle with. I know adding afterwards will be slow but that's what I need to do to co-exist with husband and family. 

      I added the bottle of Safe Start at the beginning and I've been adding Prime every day. When should I begin vacuuming gravel and doing water changes? Should I plan to replace filters during or after the cycle?  

      Do I replace water in the tank as its evaporated or is this only done at the water change so the salt can be adjusted accordingly? I understand the water/salt ratio I just didn't know about replacing the evaporated water. 



      On Dec 31, 2014, at 10:44 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      No biggie on the hot water miscommunication.  As you saw, I included a big Grin at the need of my statement.  You just forgot to add that little detail (LOL).  That Aquavac is going to save you a humongous amount of work; those 5 gallon buckets weigh nearly 40 pounds when nearly full.  I'd call that heavy! 
       pm
      I see what you mean about the emergency tank being only a 5 gallon hex.  Not really meant for any fish long-term, although holding a fish or two in quarantine requires a full month to be assured they're disease-free.  BTW, I hope you're aware that such emergency tanks' main purpose -- besides being used as a hospital tank -- is to use them to isolate and observe new fish for a month before adding them to your main tank so that you don't spread any possible disease to your other fish.  As 5 gallons is small, you might watch for PetSmart's periodic $1 per gallon tank sales.  You could pick up a 10 gallon tank for 10 Bucks at those times. 
       
      Looks like the Whisper is entirely out of the question for this small tank -- and the dried out media no longer contains live nitrifiers.  As for holding the Angels in this hex tank, cycling the 55 would take up to 6 weeks so this would be long-term, but it would be much less stressful on the fish, not subjecting them to abnormal ammonia levels.  Even ammonium is toxic, albeit much less so than ammonia.  IF you were to cycle the tank with fish in it, it would be much more of a benefit in using more for this purpose than less, as the finished cycle would be able to convert a larger amount of ammonia.  BUT, as long as we now have this fish-less cycling option, we NEVER advocate

      (Message over 64 KB, truncated)
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56380 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 1/5/2015
      Subject: Numbers for 55 Gal 1/5/15
      Ph 7.6, HPh 8.0, Ammonia 4, Nitrite 5, Nitrate 40, KH 4

      Peg
      peg@...
      Soon Opening: Hoopin' It Up Designs
      Custom Embroidery & Embellishments
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56381 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/5/2015
      Subject: Re: Question on Fluval set-up
      AOL Email
      DO NOT USE PURIGEN !!!
       
      In a message dated 1/5/2015 9:14:01 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      It wasn't in use in my pic (sorry) but after I read your response I looked at it and saw that the top of the waterfall where the bubbles come out is up above and to the left of the input for the Fluval. Since the bubbles 
      come out and float up to the top it appeared it wouldn't be a problem. I started using it and I haven't heard tes
      any pssssst's. Thank you for looking at it though. 

      Can I ask you another question about the Fluval? Mine has 3 media baskets and came with Fluval brand media. Can you use media made by other companies? I'm interested in the product by Seachem called "Purigen."  Just wondering if I could use it in the Fluval?

      Peg
      Soon Opening: Hoopin' It Up Designs
                                Custom Embroidery & Embellishments

      On Jan 5, 2015, at 6:43 PM, SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Hi Peg,

        Sorry for my late response-I'm still a little confused as I can only find 4 pictures of yours in an album entitled "Peg's Pics" but none of them appear to show the waterfall decoration in use yet but your description implies it is in use-am I barking up the wrong tree here?

        John<o)))<

      On 3 January 2015 at 17:31, Peg Yruegas peg@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      Thank you! 
      Did you see the waterfall piece on the far left? The illusion of the water "falling" is the bubbles from the air stone traveling back along the bottom and up the back.
      The top of the waterfall is about 2-3 inches above and 8-10 inches to the side if the intake. So, the bubbles are released above the intake. I'm hoping that's ok for he Fluval.

      Sent from my iPhone

      On Jan 3, 2015, at 6:00 AM, SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Yes, I've found them Peg thank you. All your hard work is paying off as it looks very nice.

        John<o)))<

      On 2 January 2015 at 22:52, Peg Yruegas peg@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      Thank you. I put a pic in my folder which shows the "waterfall" and the Fluval intake ting do you can see how it's set up. 

      There's another piece on the right which is s cave and it sends bubbles up from 2 places. I didn't connect it because it makes too much noise.!

      Sent from my iPhone

      On Jan 2, 2015, at 4:21 PM, ptimlin@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      The idea is that if you get excessive bubbles going into the intake of the Fluval you may cause too much air to build up and break the siphon causing the fluval to stop pumping. 


      So as far as the waterfall is concerned, as long as it isn't creating a lot of bubbles then it shouldn't be a problem. You can tell if the Fluval is taking in bubbles as they a distinct "pssssst" sound when they hit the impeller. Occasional "psssts" are usually fine. But more than one a second or two you might want to space them out a bit.

      Also, waterfall type water flow, especially the output from power filters, do not usually create many bubbles unless they are much higher than the water surface. Normally in a tank this isn't an issue unless you allow the water level (from evaporation) to fall too low. If you make sure you keep the water level up, it shouldn't be an issue.

      Patrick



      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56382 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/5/2015
      Subject: Re: Questions on re-establishing tank
      AOL Email
      Hmmm, I since found that Austins Clear Ammonia is said to contain 2% Ammonium Hydroxide.  You don't happen to have Austin's Clear Ammonia Laundry Detergent do you?
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/5/2015 9:33:05 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      I'm using Austin Clear Ammonia. The labeling didn't state the percentage. I so I looked up the MSDS. 
      It states Ammonium hydroxide 1.0% by wt.  There are other numbers but appear to be related to exposure limits.

      Peg
      Soon Opening: Hoopin' It Up Designs
                                Custom Embroidery & Embellishments

      On Jan 5, 2015, at 12:51 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Okay, since you need the ammonia level higher to start your cycle, you'll need to add more to increase this "1.0 ppm" level.  I'm sure the cycle has already started though, for you to have nitrite present.  Just how much ammonia was consumed between yesterday and today though, is very uncertain.  Also, while I tried to make things easier by just adding teaspoons, I already did mention that the size of drops can vary depending on the size of the openings in droppers.  Still, I've found no info saying that a teaspoon holds any less than 50 drop -- and some sources say 70 or even 98 drops.  Three teaspoons should have been enough to bring the ammonia up to at least 2.5 ppm yesterday.  When you read this, add 3 more teaspoons of ammonia and post a number of what this level reaches after allowing this new ammonia to circulate for about 20 minutes.  I'll try to get back here within 2 hours, and we'll see if you need to add more.  While most sources state that household ammonia is a 10% solution, others say from 5% to 10% and yet others say between 2% and 10%.  With this much possible variation, it would be helpful if you would post this ammonia's strength (by percentage on the label)  here to give some idea of the solution's concentration.
       
      Ray
         
       
      In a message dated 1/5/2015 12:21:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      I checked the ammonia in the 55 gal this morning. It's now at "1".  I have not added any
      Additional ammonia since the initial 3 tsp. 

      Peg
      Soon Opening: Hoopin' It Up Designs
                                Custom Embroidery & Embellishments

      On Jan 5, 2015, at 8:41 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Just wanting to assure you, that fish don't have long memories although the older they get the greater their fear will be of the net -- even if they were never netted before.  The younger they are, the less fear they'll show.  Oh, so the Angels are about 2" in diameter (just wanted to get some idea of the bioload they represent).  Incidentally, a much less stressful way of capturing fish is to submerge an open plastic fish bag into the tank and guide the fish into it with a net.  Then quickly close the bag before the fish can turn around and get out.  Just move the bag from one tank to the next after that and if you need to make more room in the tank that the fish is going to, just spill most of the water out of the bag back into the first tank with your hand keeping the bag mostly closed.  A solid clear container will also work, like a glass jar, but anything that's opaque will easily wise the fish up to his being captured.   Another "incidentally,"  it's best you added some gravel to the 10 gallon tank -- not because of it holding bacteria, but because it will put the angels more at ease as opposed to having a bare glass bottom.  On the time it takes for cycling a tank, I thought you already knew that, but since you ask a fishless cycle takes between 4 and 6 weeks -- more often closer to six weeks.  There's where you can add Safe Start (or, Dr. Tim's One and Only -- or a combination of this and the product Dawn prefers).  You can't go wrong that way, and any bacteria supplement will only help speed matters along as long as you supply them with ammonia.  For cycling a tank with fish, it can take even longer as you can't allow large amounts of organic wastes to accumulate.  With needing to do PWC's, even just to keep the nitrate level down once that starts to elevate, this limits the amount of ammonia in the water which the bacteria need to thrive on as you'll need to keep removing much of it.
       
      Okay, the numbers for the 10 gallon look just fine.  Check them each day, although you can leave the GH out as that remains constant.  Add prime each day and if the tank requires a PWC, add the Prime afterwards.  As you're not going to be cycling this tank, do PWC's on it as soon as you see any elevation in the ammonia, which could be every day, but keeping the ammonia at an absolute minimum each day should only require minimum PWC's.  Still, let us know what these numbers are.  As for the numbers in your 55, it's off to a good start although it's unusual to have the nitrite this high so early, when your ammonia is only at 0.25 ppm.  Still, this can't pose any danger when there's sn no fish in the tank. To establish exactly how much household ammonia will bring the ammonia level up to 4.0 ppm, it would have been preferred to test for it right after time (perhaps 20 minutes) was allowed for it to be thoroughly mixed in with the tank water.  Give us a test result for it now and don't add any more ammonia until I can evaluate it.  Your Angelfish sound very nice.  Let me add, that as each one has their own "personality," they'll all behave slightly different within the confines of Angelfish behavior. 
       
      With having a good number of tanks needing maintenance, one needs to have a system in place to attend them all on a regular basis.  Naturally, time just wouldn't permit attending to all the tanks in a day (or two), so a schedule needs to be determined as to which tanks get their weekly maintenance on which days throughout the week or throughout the month.  Once that's planned out -- and it's always good to draw up a chart, like a calendar, to keep a better check on the scheduling -- it makes things much easier.  As for breeding, if you happen to add some livebearers (Guppies, Swordtails, Platies, etc.) somewhere down the line after getting you 55 squared away, they'll do the breeding for you without your having to do anything yourself.  As any fry not finding shelter will be eaten, you'll need to remove them and place them in their own tank for raising,  This is how hobbyists first develop MTS, and how you may likely develop this syndrome also, after a while.  Other uses for more tanks than would seem needed just for maintaining a community tank or two is for maintaining species that are threatened and/or endangered in the wild.  I'm presently maintaining several tanks of endangered species, sometimes with some of them breeding and I then distribute them to other hobbyists who also maintain some endangered fishes.  Sometimes these fish are threatened in the wild because of their habitat being destroyed.  If they go extinct in the wild, with keeping captive populations in the aquarium, there will be stocks of them to replenish their native environments if and when they can be restored.  There are some Pleco's more ideally suited for the small aquarium and which get to a maximum size of around 6".  They're not "gross," and do a nice job of keeping the tank free of most types of algae.  The common Pleco gets huge however, and should preferable be housed only in very large tanks to prevent from stunting them, which is why I suggested the one we were just discussing might be best moved to a larger aquarium.                     
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/5/2015 2:30:45 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      I know you keep telling me fishless cycling is the best and that its less stressful for the fish but 
      I tell ya Ray, my yellow angel had just started to trust me, she wasn't going to hide when she saw 
      approaching and she was finally eating when I put food in for her.  I feared netting her and moving her 
      to a temp tank would just spook her even more. I don't know if fish hold grudges but hopefully she'll 
      come around again once she gets back in her permanent home. How long does a fishless cycle usually take??  I've only been thru one cycle and that's the one I just finished with my frogs. I was so happy yesterday when the nitrates spiked and the ammonia dropped to zero. I tested the new 10 gal tank
      Tonight. The numbers were Ph 7.6, HPh 8, Ammonia 0, Nitrites 0, Nitrates 5, GH8, KH 6   I'm glad I had almost everything needed to get the 10 gal going ....well with the exception of the tank. That worked out pretty good. That sale came Along at a good time! ;p


      Today, the numbers for the 55 gal tank were:  Ph 7.6, HPh 8.2, Ammonia .25,  Nitrites 2, Nitrates 40, GH 8, KH 4.  I added 3 tsp of ammonia after I tested the water. I'll test in the morning and let you know how the added ammonia affected the numbers. The Angels from tip of nose to end of tail are about 3 inches and 
      from bottom of fin to top of fin about 4 inches. They have those long things that hang down like whiskers... 
      I don't know what they're called but I didn't count those. They're pretty nice sized but not adult size yet.  I live Angels. They're one of my favorites but the 2 big ones I re-homed were kind of aggressive and 
      have me afraid to get anymore. They terrorized the snails and drove the little fish to hide.  They were intimidating and used fin-Nipping to get the fish out of their space.  The bigger one, I believed to be 
      A male was marked like a tiger. He looked like he was velvet, just beautiful. He would "patrol" an area
      While the other one was hanging out and then they'd switch places.   Very odd behavior. 
      I didn't know until very recently that they were part of the Cichlid family. Sounds like you came up with some beauties.

      It's hard to imagine 90 tanks in 1 house. My head would be swimming as I tried to remember what I
      Needed to do with each. Breeding sounds interesting but I have no idea how it's done or what needs to happen.  Sometime when you get pics up, I'd like to see them! Lol!!! Sounds like the new group member
      Has interests similar to yours. He was talking about the big Pleco and I remembered the ones that are up at our Jacks Pets. People have bought them and they get HUGE and the people can't deal with them. They have some that are 2 feet long. They're so gross. I had some pics of them. I'll have to see if I can find them. 
      They gross me out. 

      I





      Sent from my iPad

      On Jan 4, 2015, at 6:56 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Alright Peg, you've made the best choice by choosing fish-less cycling for the 55 gallon.  Yes, as you found out, large water changes can add to your water bill.  Depending on which part of there country you live in, your water can be almost as cheap as air or it can get rather expensive for comparably small quantities of it.  As am example, I'm charged $4.12 for each 100 cubic feet (748 gallons) of water -- plus the monthly $8.85 facilities charge no matter how much or how little water I use.  The "facilities" charge pays for the infrastructure of pipes getting the water to my house, the pumping and filtration of the water at the plant and anything else that the water company passes on to their consumers.  By this you can see that I'd use almost 400 cubic feet of water a week if I did 90% PWC's on all tanks each week, or 1600 cubic feet per month, at a charge of $65.92 each month.  However, 24 years ago I switched to my private well -- of which this water is exceedingly better for maintaining and raising fish -- and it only costs me the price of the electricity use to pump the water; next to nothing.  We had another moderator on this Group up until 5 or 6 years ago, who lived in Louisiana.  His water bill was practically nothing. 
      Anyhow, with cycling the 55 gallon tank, you will do no PWC's until the cycle's complete.  At that time, you'll need to do one large PWC to the extent of removing all of the excess nitrate, at least anything over over 40 ppm and preferably even more -- enough to get the nitrate down to 20 ppm (or even lower) is always nice.  When that time comes, just give us a test reading of what your nitrate level is, and we'll tell you exactly how much water to change.  At this time, you'll add your two Angelfish and three Cory's back into the 55 and any other fishes you also want to include.  
       
      Now, getting to the 10 gallon tank; you will not be cycling this tank but will just be relying on PWC's to keep the water free of contaminants.  Therefore, there's no need to add Safe Start, but keepi4 Prime in there all the time (adding daily) would be helpful.  Yeah, I told you abouit Petco's $1 per gallon sales -- I just didn't know when to expect them.  Can't beat those prices, and they usually have these sales at least 3 times a year.  That you've already added Safe Start to this 10 gallon tank is fine, although the bacteria may starve out because of very minimal amount of ammonia being kept in the water all of the time.  No need to add any more Safe Start to this tank.  Yes, you will need to take daily ammonia tests and change enough water in quantity and in intervals to keep the ammonia level as low as possible.  You already have the idea.  You may report the ammonia test results for this tank here and I'll tell you exactly how much water needs to be changed.  I see you added the Whisper filter to enable any nitrifying bacteria that's able to grow, a chance to do just that by populating the media -- with as little ammonia as we're going to allow.  It appears you added the fish this afternoon, please post the ammonia level for this tank tomorrow.  I don't expect it to have changed very much, but we need to have a figure to work with when taken by surprise.   BTW, while on these fish, about what size are these Angelfish -- their body diameter excluding the fins?  How big are the Cory's?
       
      Now, back to cycling the 55.  No need to change any water, even now.  I'll go over the steps once more.  Let me know if you need anything else explained after I'm done -- if it's not very clear.  First, add 3 drops per gallon of clear (not sudsy) household ammonia to this tank.  As a teaspoon hold about 50 drops, 3 teaspoons of this ammonia for starters.  After giving it some time to thoroughly mix, do an ammonia test.  It should be near 3 ppm, but with this much ammonia it probably will not exceed this.  You may even need to add more, but I won't tell you to do this initially as I don't want your ammonia level too high either.  It's always easier to add but much harder to remove without doing PWC's.  Depending on your ammonia level after allowing it to mix, I'll let you know how much (if any) more you may need to add.  Once you have the ammonia level where we want it -- and I believe I may aim for 4 ppm as an amount to maintain -- you'll need to test the ammonia tomorrow (and every day) and add just enough more ammonia to bring the level back up to 4 ppm if any was used.  If none was used, then test it the next day.  When you see a drop in the ammonia, report it here to be able to know how much more ammonia to add to bring the level back up to where we prefer to maintain it.  After about 10 to 12 days, you should start to see a noticeable increase in the nitrite.  At this time, you may test for both of these products and you'll see the nitrite spike to a certain high level after another 10 to 12 days and then slowly decline after this.  Keep adding just enough more ammonia to keep the level at the predetermined 4 ppm.  Towards to end of the cycle, as it's completing, you'll find that more and more ammonia is being used up every day after adding the make-up amount the previous day.  Very near the end, after adding the amount of ammonia to bring it back up to 4 ppm, the next day's ammonia level will read about 0.5 ppm or even 0.25 ppm.  When the next day's ammonia reading is zero after adding the needed amount of ammonia the previous day, and the next day's nitrite level is also zero, you'll know that there's now a sufficient amount of both types of nitrifying bacteria in your filters to be able to convert 4 ppm of ammonia.  This 4 ppm is usually a bit more, and is in most cases not any less, than a properly stocked tank's fish will produce in one day.  At this time, you can discontinue adding the household ammonia and feel free to add all of the fish you want to include in this tank, knowing that all of their ammonia will be converted to nitrite and then nitrate each day.  Your tank will be fully cycled.  As a cycle being able to convert 4 ppm of ammonia per day may be slightly more than your full stock of fish will produce in one day -- which may only be 3 ppm -- but this only means that your tank will be adequately cycled to handle the waste from all of your fish and if that waste is no more than 3 ppm. the bacteria populations will adjust (reduce) to quantities that can live on 3 ppm rather than 4 ppm -- a portion will starve out in readjusting, but you'll have at least as much bacteria to start with than you need.  The 4 ppm constant ammonia level finishes the nitrite cycling part faster as there's more food to feed on. 
       
      IMPORTANT now, before adding any fish -- this is the time at the end of the cycling period when you must change enough water to remove the excess nitrates which have been building up all along.           
       
      Thanks for the instructions on how to post pics.  I've been talked through this in the past, but never actually been "walked" through this, as with someone being right here next to me showing me exactly what needs to be done and how it's actually done.  I'm keeping your notes handy though, but I'll get to it as time permits -- and as a better browser will allow (I need a 'puter update); thanks.
       
      I think I covered everything on cycling a tank.  I know it's not easy to understand what's happening, but I hope my explanations through these steps makes it easier to be understood. 
       
      Oh yeah, Yes, I ONLY have 90 tanks right now < g >.  And yes, they're all at my house right now -- wall to wall in the basement and rack to rack, isle to isle.  For hobbyists who may be comparatively new to fish keeping, it should be explained that after a while many of us develop "MTS," or . . . Multi-Tank Syndrome.  Some hobbyist go to the extent of building their own fish rooms in their basements and others even go so far as to build separate fish houses in their backyards.  A very good friend of mine and a nationally know aquarist at one time had 150 tanks in operation before he retired,  Now he has about 50 tanks -- he had to cut back (he's 86 years old now).  Another good friend of mine who specialized in Killifish rented out a storefront and maintained 300 tanks.  He'd clean 10 tanks a day and by the end of the month he had them all cleaned and would start all over again in their maintenance.  He had to cut back too, as he took a fall off of a ladder and hurt himself.  Fortunately, he's okay now, but he's getting up there in years also.  What do I do with them?  -- I sell them to the local pet shops, submit them in the various clubs' auctions, distribute and trade them among fellow hobbyists and put them in shows.  There's always a market for home-grown tropical fish.  Numerous tanks are also needed to develop other strains of fish when line-breeding to enhance traits while restricting the genes from becoming too inbred (by mutually carrying the genes via cousins rather than by brothers and sisters).  After several generations of side-by-side breeding for these traits by related (but not too closely) fish carrying the same mutation, these cousins are then bred to each other to enhance the traits.  Once the line breeding produces only prodengy (offspring) displaying the desired new traits, the strain is said to be "fixed."  It takes a lot of tanks to carry and raise all the needed fish for developing new strain, which I enjoy doing.  Twenty five years ago I developed my own Koi Angelfish before I even knew it was in the stage of being developed by others.  My Koi was a prize-winning strain which took 1st in its Class in the American Cichlid Association's Convention back then.  I've since developed other Angelfish strains, such as Black Angels being derived out of a crossing "stripe-less" Angels, i.e., Dark Marbles first bred to be solid and Chocolate Angels first bred to the same characteristic, then crossed to create the solid Black (Most other Black Angels today will show darker stripes showing through the lighter overall black because they're developed from Black Lace, which were developed from the wild Silver/Black Striped Angel.  There are lots of things you can do with having many tanks, the imagination is limitless.
       
      Ray
       
             
       
      In a message dated 1/4/2015 3:59:33 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Funny you should mention the use of a lot of tap water.... Our water bill was doubled this cycle. My
      Husband wasn't thrilled but luckily water is the cheapest commodity. I will probably use the Aquavac for water changes but like you mentioned I'll get the siphon started then turn the tap off.  I used it to drain the tank last time but I didn't have the faucet adapter so my husband got it started. The hose is 50 feet and drains down to the utility sink in the basement. Even without the water going it drained pretty quick.  If I had multiple tanks to take care of I might look into the pump thing but this one tank is enough for me. 

      You ONLY have 90 tanks now? Are all of those tanks at your house now?  If you're not commercially breeding fish what do you do with all of them? I can't even imagine having 90 fish tanks...it's inconceivable to me. It sounds like you really love it and it brings you joy...that's what it's all about. 

      Adding pictures to the Yahoo groups page is easy(waaaayyy easier than taking care of aalllll those fish). 
      Once you log in, go to your Yahoo groups page and select Aquatic Life. Once there you'll see an icon for Photos on the  upper left side and you'll select that. Now you'll see an icon on the right for Albums. 
      If you select that you can create your album and after doing so it'll step you through selecting and uploading your opics to that album. In some groups you can email Pics as a part of your post but I see this group has that feature disabled. It's not a bad idea to disable it, cuts back on crap getting posted that may not be appropriate.

      I read a post on the frog group page that Petco was having the $1 a gallon sale so I went and got a 10 gallon tank to use in place of that 5 gal hex. Luckily I had the a Whisper filter, pump, gravel etc... I added a bottle of Safe Start and Prime and moved the Angels out of the 55 gal tank. Since that tank isn't cycled, I'm assuming it won't get cycled but that I'll do water changes however often they're  needed to keep the ammonia down?  When I do the water changes will I just treat it with Prime? For my wallets sake, I'm hoping I don't have to add a bottle of Safe Start every 2-3 days... 

      I know you've briefly gone over the steps I'll need to take with the household ammonia but would it be possible for you to give me something a little more detailed?  Like, will I be starting with the water and filters as they are now or would t be better to drain it again and start from scratch?  As we proceed, will I still have to do water changes on the 55 gal tank? I guess I still don't fully understand what happens when you do a fishless cycle. 

      Now that the tank will cycle w/o fish how is it decided how many fish can go in after the cycle finishes and when do they go in? When will the Angels go back in?





      On Jan 3, 2015, at 6:39 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:ô

       

      Re
      Hi Peg,
       
      Using 5 gallon buckets is the hard way to do water changes, unless you're really strong enough so that it doesn't bother you.  It's also very time consuming and some beginner hobbyists just give up on it at this point, feeling that it's too much work to have to do week after week.  Many of us, including myself, made water changes with buckets when we were just starting out, and when we were much younger < g >.  I'm glad for your sake that you got that AquaVac so that you can get away from carrying those buckets.  You're going to find though, that drawing water out of the tank with that water changer will use a lot of tap water.  One way to avoid that if possible is to start it running like that and then turn the faucet off and just let it syphon out the rest of the way, even though it will take longer.  By now, many of us use water pumps to remove the aquarium water and sometimes one to refill the tank, depending on the water change set-up we use.  On multiple tank set ups, one set of hoses and a pump is used to draw down the water while the previous tank is being filled, so that no time is wasted; it goes quite quickly.  All of the on-line aquarium supply houses carry a selection of water pumps of all sizes, or one can pick up a utility pump at Home Depot or Loews. 
       
      Trying to make this next long-story short, my biggest tanks now are a number of 125 gallon aquariums, but I had tanks up to 260 gallons when I needed them.  Besides these 125's I have several 100 gallon tanks, half a dozen 75 gallon tank, a dozen 50 gallon tanks, a few 55's, etc., etc.  I've cut way back from when I was commercially breeding fish and only have about 90 tanks right now (with a total volume of 3200 gallons).  Of course, I still breed fish right now as I thoroughly enjoy it.  At one time, a good number of years ago, I had a tropical fish store with a friend/partner of mine.  When I sold my half off to my partner, I went into importing fish, from Germany and Africa (Lake Malawi, Lake Victoria and Lake Tanganyika) and distributed them throughout the country (and as far as Australia).  It was never my actual profession as I was a printer, but I guess you could call it a second profession.  Probably spent as much time (or more) doing this as doing anything else.  When I retired from printing, I managed one of the largest Water Garden Suppliers dealing in ponds, their fish and their many plants, specializing in Water Lilies; each day was fun as it was totally enjoyable -- it certainly wasn't work.    Sorry, I don't have any pics in any folders, as no one ever taught me how to put photos up on line.  It's got to be really easy as everyone is doing it, but unless a person does this at least once -- by being walked through it -- it's all Greek, including all the internet terms.      
       
      I see you've found that the smaller the tank is, the harder it is to take care of.  Ammonia builds up a lot faster in a 5 gallon tank as compared to tank double that size.  As you don't yet know how much your fish will eat in 5 minutes, just start with a small amount -- more than just a certain number of flakes you can count on two hands.  If there's food left over after five minutes, cut back on the amount of food next time -- and the time after that -- until you get the idea of the proper amount.  A small aquarium fish's stomach might be the size of a garden pea; it doesn't  take much to satisfy the fish.  You'll never get to learn how much to feed if you keep giving more and waiting for the fish to eat that, and then give it more yet -- until the fish won't eat anymore.  You should never feed fish so much that they won't eat any more.  Fish don't know when to stop eating as they don't know that they'll be fed again the next day.  They'll keep eating as much as they can, while the opportunity presents itself.  It's not good for the fish to feed them this much.  It can even be a cause for a condition called "Bloat," which can ocassionally be fatal, depending on its actual cause.. 
       
      Yes, it can be a money pit if you let it.  Now that you have all the basic necessities, it shouldn't cost very much at all from here on in.  The major additions now would be more fish and maybe plants if you feel up to them.  None of this needs to (nor should) be done all at once anyway.  When the water level drops in the tank due to evaporation, none of the salt is lost.  Yes, you may replace water lost due to evaporation .  When adding new water to top the tank off because of this evaporation, you don't add any more salt.  The water parameters should tell you when to start doing PWC's, especially the nitrite which you don't want to allow to get too high, but even the ammonia should not be much above 4.0 ppm (3.0 ppm is better, although the cycle will take longer).  Too much of a drop in your KH will also tell you it's time to make a PWC.  You can start vacuuming after the second week -- and then, only do half the tank at a time, doing the other half the next week. 
       
      Ray  
       
        
      In a message dated 1/3/2015 4:46:09 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hey Ray!!
      My hubby picked-up the correct hose adapter and it's now on my utility sink waiting for me to
      take it for another spin. I put together a bin of things I may need when I go to use it so I don't have to 
      be running around looking for stuff while it's running or running around trying to find things so I can get started. I included a bowl and instant read digital thermometer so I could get as close as possible to the tank temp.  Carrying all those water buckets really took it out of me.   It wasn't so bad filling that little 5 gal bucket to take care of the 5 gal tank but the 55 wore me out. I can't even imagine how big your tanks are or how many you have. Not too long ago you mentioned breeding or something. Is that your profession?  How many tanks and how many did you own and do you own now?? I looked in the pics area thinking there might be some of all your tanks but there are so many folders that I never found it. 

      The 5 gallon hex was the original home for my African Dwarf Frogs. Even though they were teeny the tank was too small.  My first frog didn't make it and it was after that when I looked for someone to help guide me and found Suzy and Alyce. The next two frogs did better but Suzy really kept on me about moving them to a 10 gal aquarium. She knew that they'd just keep doing poorly in that 5 gal. 
      I had to wait until I had the funds to buy everything I needed and after I did they got moved but I still lost my boy frog.  My little girl Fannie is the only female I have now. She lives with the two boys in the 10 gal. Suzy and Alyce are now guiding me through the cycling of the tank.  With the 5 gal I had to do 50% water changes every other day just to fight the ammonia build up. 

      Losing the frogs in that tank and knowing how hard it was to keep things alive in it were my biggest reason to refrain from putting the

      (Message over 64 KB, truncated)
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56383 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/5/2015
      Subject: Re: Numbers for 55 Gal 1/5/15
      AOL Email
      As your message contains no other message beneath this for reference, I'm not sure what they represent.  Are these numbers the test results immediately after your adding more ammonia? 
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/5/2015 9:33:16 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Ph 7.6, HPh 8.0, Ammonia 4, Nitrite 5, Nitrate 40, KH 4

      Peg
      peg@...
      Soon Opening: Hoopin' It Up Designs
      Custom Embroidery & Embellishments

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56384 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 1/6/2015
      Subject: Re: Questions on re-establishing tank
      No, not laundry detergent. The label says "Austins Clear Ammonia"
      Active ingredients Ammonium Hydroxide (CAS 1336-21-6) Contains no Phosphorus 

      Peg
      Soon Opening: Hoopin' It Up Designs
                                Custom Embroidery & Embellishments

      On Jan 6, 2015, at 1:54 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Hmmm, I since found that Austins Clear Ammonia is said to contain 2% Ammonium Hydroxide.  You don't happen to have Austin's Clear Ammonia Laundry Detergent do you?
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/5/2015 9:33:05 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      I'm using Austin Clear Ammonia. The labeling didn't state the percentage. I so I looked up the MSDS. 
      It states Ammonium hydroxide 1.0% by wt.  There are other numbers but appear to be related to exposure limits.

      Peg
      Soon Opening: Hoopin' It Up Designs
                                Custom Embroidery & Embellishments

      On Jan 5, 2015, at 12:51 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Okay, since you need the ammonia level higher to start your cycle, you'll need to add more to increase this "1.0 ppm" level.  I'm sure the cycle has already started though, for you to have nitrite present.  Just how much ammonia was consumed between yesterday and today though, is very uncertain.  Also, while I tried to make things easier by just adding teaspoons, I already did mention that the size of drops can vary depending on the size of the openings in droppers.  Still, I've found no info saying that a teaspoon holds any less than 50 drop -- and some sources say 70 or even 98 drops.  Three teaspoons should have been enough to bring the ammonia up to at least 2.5 ppm yesterday.  When you read this, add 3 more teaspoons of ammonia and post a number of what this level reaches after allowing this new ammonia to circulate for about 20 minutes.  I'll try to get back here within 2 hours, and we'll see if you need to add more.  While most sources state that household ammonia is a 10% solution, others say from 5% to 10% and yet others say between 2% and 10%.  With this much possible variation, it would be helpful if you would post this ammonia's strength (by percentage on the label)  here to give some idea of the solution's concentration.
       
      Ray
         
       
      In a message dated 1/5/2015 12:21:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      I checked the ammonia in the 55 gal this morning. It's now at "1".  I have not added any
      Additional ammonia since the initial 3 tsp. 

      Peg
      Soon Opening: Hoopin' It Up Designs
                                Custom Embroidery & Embellishments

      On Jan 5, 2015, at 8:41 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Just wanting to assure you, that fish don't have long memories although the older they get the greater their fear will be of the net -- even if they were never netted before.  The younger they are, the less fear they'll show.  Oh, so the Angels are about 2" in diameter (just wanted to get some idea of the bioload they represent).  Incidentally, a much less stressful way of capturing fish is to submerge an open plastic fish bag into the tank and guide the fish into it with a net.  Then quickly close the bag before the fish can turn around and get out.  Just move the bag from one tank to the next after that and if you need to make more room in the tank that the fish is going to, just spill most of the water out of the bag back into the first tank with your hand keeping the bag mostly closed.  A solid clear container will also work, like a glass jar, but anything that's opaque will easily wise the fish up to his being captured.   Another "incidentally,"  it's best you added some gravel to the 10 gallon tank -- not because of it holding bacteria, but because it will put the angels more at ease as opposed to having a bare glass bottom.  On the time it takes for cycling a tank, I thought you already knew that, but since you ask a fishless cycle takes between 4 and 6 weeks -- more often closer to six weeks.  There's where you can add Safe Start (or, Dr. Tim's One and Only -- or a combination of this and the product Dawn prefers).  You can't go wrong that way, and any bacteria supplement will only help speed matters along as long as you supply them with ammonia.  For cycling a tank with fish, it can take even longer as you can't allow large amounts of organic wastes to accumulate.  With needing to do PWC's, even just to keep the nitrate level down once that starts to elevate, this limits the amount of ammonia in the water which the bacteria need to thrive on as you'll need to keep removing much of it.
       
      Okay, the numbers for the 10 gallon look just fine.  Check them each day, although you can leave the GH out as that remains constant.  Add prime each day and if the tank requires a PWC, add the Prime afterwards.  As you're not going to be cycling this tank, do PWC's on it as soon as you see any elevation in the ammonia, which could be every day, but keeping the ammonia at an absolute minimum each day should only require minimum PWC's.  Still, let us know what these numbers are.  As for the numbers in your 55, it's off to a good start although it's unusual to have the nitrite this high so early, when your ammonia is only at 0.25 ppm.  Still, this can't pose any danger when there's sn no fish in the tank. To establish exactly how much household ammonia will bring the ammonia level up to 4.0 ppm, it would have been preferred to test for it right after time (perhaps 20 minutes) was allowed for it to be thoroughly mixed in with the tank water.  Give us a test result for it now and don't add any more ammonia until I can evaluate it.  Your Angelfish sound very nice.  Let me add, that as each one has their own "personality," they'll all behave slightly different within the confines of Angelfish behavior. 
       
      With having a good number of tanks needing maintenance, one needs to have a system in place to attend them all on a regular basis.  Naturally, time just wouldn't permit attending to all the tanks in a day (or two), so a schedule needs to be determined as to which tanks get their weekly maintenance on which days throughout the week or throughout the month.  Once that's planned out -- and it's always good to draw up a chart, like a calendar, to keep a better check on the scheduling -- it makes things much easier.  As for breeding, if you happen to add some livebearers (Guppies, Swordtails, Platies, etc.) somewhere down the line after getting you 55 squared away, they'll do the breeding for you without your having to do anything yourself.  As any fry not finding shelter will be eaten, you'll need to remove them and place them in their own tank for raising,  This is how hobbyists first develop MTS, and how you may likely develop this syndrome also, after a while.  Other uses for more tanks than would seem needed just for maintaining a community tank or two is for maintaining species that are threatened and/or endangered in the wild.  I'm presently maintaining several tanks of endangered species, sometimes with some of them breeding and I then distribute them to other hobbyists who also maintain some endangered fishes.  Sometimes these fish are threatened in the wild because of their habitat being destroyed.  If they go extinct in the wild, with keeping captive populations in the aquarium, there will be stocks of them to replenish their native environments if and when they can be restored.  There are some Pleco's more ideally suited for the small aquarium and which get to a maximum size of around 6".  They're not "gross," and do a nice job of keeping the tank free of most types of algae.  The common Pleco gets huge however, and should preferable be housed only in very large tanks to prevent from stunting them, which is why I suggested the one we were just discussing might be best moved to a larger aquarium.                     
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/5/2015 2:30:45 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      I know you keep telling me fishless cycling is the best and that its less stressful for the fish but 
      I tell ya Ray, my yellow angel had just started to trust me, she wasn't going to hide when she saw 
      approaching and she was finally eating when I put food in for her.  I feared netting her and moving her 
      to a temp tank would just spook her even more. I don't know if fish hold grudges but hopefully she'll 
      come around again once she gets back in her permanent home. How long does a fishless cycle usually take??  I've only been thru one cycle and that's the one I just finished with my frogs. I was so happy yesterday when the nitrates spiked and the ammonia dropped to zero. I tested the new 10 gal tank
      Tonight. The numbers were Ph 7.6, HPh 8, Ammonia 0, Nitrites 0, Nitrates 5, GH8, KH 6   I'm glad I had almost everything needed to get the 10 gal going ....well with the exception of the tank. That worked out pretty good. That sale came Along at a good time! ;p


      Today, the numbers for the 55 gal tank were:  Ph 7.6, HPh 8.2, Ammonia .25,  Nitrites 2, Nitrates 40, GH 8, KH 4.  I added 3 tsp of ammonia after I tested the water. I'll test in the morning and let you know how the added ammonia affected the numbers. The Angels from tip of nose to end of tail are about 3 inches and 
      from bottom of fin to top of fin about 4 inches. They have those long things that hang down like whiskers... 
      I don't know what they're called but I didn't count those. They're pretty nice sized but not adult size yet.  I live Angels. They're one of my favorites but the 2 big ones I re-homed were kind of aggressive and 
      have me afraid to get anymore. They terrorized the snails and drove the little fish to hide.  They were intimidating and used fin-Nipping to get the fish out of their space.  The bigger one, I believed to be 
      A male was marked like a tiger. He looked like he was velvet, just beautiful. He would "patrol" an area
      While the other one was hanging out and then they'd switch places.   Very odd behavior. 
      I didn't know until very recently that they were part of the Cichlid family. Sounds like you came up with some beauties.

      It's hard to imagine 90 tanks in 1 house. My head would be swimming as I tried to remember what I
      Needed to do with each. Breeding sounds interesting but I have no idea how it's done or what needs to happen.  Sometime when you get pics up, I'd like to see them! Lol!!! Sounds like the new group member
      Has interests similar to yours. He was talking about the big Pleco and I remembered the ones that are up at our Jacks Pets. People have bought them and they get HUGE and the people can't deal with them. They have some that are 2 feet long. They're so gross. I had some pics of them. I'll have to see if I can find them. 
      They gross me out. 

      I





      Sent from my iPad

      On Jan 4, 2015, at 6:56 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Alright Peg, you've made the best choice by choosing fish-less cycling for the 55 gallon.  Yes, as you found out, large water changes can add to your water bill.  Depending on which part of there country you live in, your water can be almost as cheap as air or it can get rather expensive for comparably small quantities of it.  As am example, I'm charged $4.12 for each 100 cubic feet (748 gallons) of water -- plus the monthly $8.85 facilities charge no matter how much or how little water I use.  The "facilities" charge pays for the infrastructure of pipes getting the water to my house, the pumping and filtration of the water at the plant and anything else that the water company passes on to their consumers.  By this you can see that I'd use almost 400 cubic feet of water a week if I did 90% PWC's on all tanks each week, or 1600 cubic feet per month, at a charge of $65.92 each month.  However, 24 years ago I switched to my private well -- of which this water is exceedingly better for maintaining and raising fish -- and it only costs me the price of the electricity use to pump the water; next to nothing.  We had another moderator on this Group up until 5 or 6 years ago, who lived in Louisiana.  His water bill was practically nothing. 
      Anyhow, with cycling the 55 gallon tank, you will do no PWC's until the cycle's complete.  At that time, you'll need to do one large PWC to the extent of removing all of the excess nitrate, at least anything over over 40 ppm and preferably even more -- enough to get the nitrate down to 20 ppm (or even lower) is always nice.  When that time comes, just give us a test reading of what your nitrate level is, and we'll tell you exactly how much water to change.  At this time, you'll add your two Angelfish and three Cory's back into the 55 and any other fishes you also want to include.  
       
      Now, getting to the 10 gallon tank; you will not be cycling this tank but will just be relying on PWC's to keep the water free of contaminants.  Therefore, there's no need to add Safe Start, but keepi4 Prime in there all the time (adding daily) would be helpful.  Yeah, I told you abouit Petco's $1 per gallon sales -- I just didn't know when to expect them.  Can't beat those prices, and they usually have these sales at least 3 times a year.  That you've already added Safe Start to this 10 gallon tank is fine, although the bacteria may starve out because of very minimal amount of ammonia being kept in the water all of the time.  No need to add any more Safe Start to this tank.  Yes, you will need to take daily ammonia tests and change enough water in quantity and in intervals to keep the ammonia level as low as possible.  You already have the idea.  You may report the ammonia test results for this tank here and I'll tell you exactly how much water needs to be changed.  I see you added the Whisper filter to enable any nitrifying bacteria that's able to grow, a chance to do just that by populating the media -- with as little ammonia as we're going to allow.  It appears you added the fish this afternoon, please post the ammonia level for this tank tomorrow.  I don't expect it to have changed very much, but we need to have a figure to work with when taken by surprise.   BTW, while on these fish, about what size are these Angelfish -- their body diameter excluding the fins?  How big are the Cory's?
       
      Now, back to cycling the 55.  No need to change any water, even now.  I'll go over the steps once more.  Let me know if you need anything else explained after I'm done -- if it's not very clear.  First, add 3 drops per gallon of clear (not sudsy) household ammonia to this tank.  As a teaspoon hold about 50 drops, 3 teaspoons of this ammonia for starters.  After giving it some time to thoroughly mix, do an ammonia test.  It should be near 3 ppm, but with this much ammonia it probably will not exceed this.  You may even need to add more, but I won't tell you to do this initially as I don't want your ammonia level too high either.  It's always easier to add but much harder to remove without doing PWC's.  Depending on your ammonia level after allowing it to mix, I'll let you know how much (if any) more you may need to add.  Once you have the ammonia level where we want it -- and I believe I may aim for 4 ppm as an amount to maintain -- you'll need to test the ammonia tomorrow (and every day) and add just enough more ammonia to bring the level back up to 4 ppm if any was used.  If none was used, then test it the next day.  When you see a drop in the ammonia, report it here to be able to know how much more ammonia to add to bring the level back up to where we prefer to maintain it.  After about 10 to 12 days, you should start to see a noticeable increase in the nitrite.  At this time, you may test for both of these products and you'll see the nitrite spike to a certain high level after another 10 to 12 days and then slowly decline after this.  Keep adding just enough more ammonia to keep the level at the predetermined 4 ppm.  Towards to end of the cycle, as it's completing, you'll find that more and more ammonia is being used up every day after adding the make-up amount the previous day.  Very near the end, after adding the amount of ammonia to bring it back up to 4 ppm, the next day's ammonia level will read about 0.5 ppm or even 0.25 ppm.  When the next day's ammonia reading is zero after adding the needed amount of ammonia the previous day, and the next day's nitrite level is also zero, you'll know that there's now a sufficient amount of both types of nitrifying bacteria in your filters to be able to convert 4 ppm of ammonia.  This 4 ppm is usually a bit more, and is in most cases not any less, than a properly stocked tank's fish will produce in one day.  At this time, you can discontinue adding the household ammonia and feel free to add all of the fish you want to include in this tank, knowing that all of their ammonia will be converted to nitrite and then nitrate each day.  Your tank will be fully cycled.  As a cycle being able to convert 4 ppm of ammonia per day may be slightly more than your full stock of fish will produce in one day -- which may only be 3 ppm -- but this only means that your tank will be adequately cycled to handle the waste from all of your fish and if that waste is no more than 3 ppm. the bacteria populations will adjust (reduce) to quantities that can live on 3 ppm rather than 4 ppm -- a portion will starve out in readjusting, but you'll have at least as much bacteria to start with than you need.  The 4 ppm constant ammonia level finishes the nitrite cycling part faster as there's more food to feed on. 
       
      IMPORTANT now, before adding any fish -- this is the time at the end of the cycling period when you must change enough water to remove the excess nitrates which have been building up all along.           
       
      Thanks for the instructions on how to post pics.  I've been talked through this in the past, but never actually been "walked" through this, as with someone being right here next to me showing me exactly what needs to be done and how it's actually done.  I'm keeping your notes handy though, but I'll get to it as time permits -- and as a better browser will allow (I need a 'puter update); thanks.
       
      I think I covered everything on cycling a tank.  I know it's not easy to understand what's happening, but I hope my explanations through these steps makes it easier to be understood. 
       
      Oh yeah, Yes, I ONLY have 90 tanks right now < g >.  And yes, they're all at my house right now -- wall to wall in the basement and rack to rack, isle to isle.  For hobbyists who may be comparatively new to fish keeping, it should be explained that after a while many of us develop "MTS," or . . . Multi-Tank Syndrome.  Some hobbyist go to the extent of building their own fish rooms in their basements and others even go so far as to build separate fish houses in their backyards.  A very good friend of mine and a nationally know aquarist at one time had 150 tanks in operation before he retired,  Now he has about 50 tanks -- he had to cut back (he's 86 years old now).  Another good friend of mine who specialized in Killifish rented out a storefront and maintained 300 tanks.  He'd clean 10 tanks a day and by the end of the month he had them all cleaned and would start all over again in their maintenance.  He had to cut back too, as he took a fall off of a ladder and hurt himself.  Fortunately, he's okay now, but he's getting up there in years also.  What do I do with them?  -- I sell them to the local pet shops, submit them in the various clubs' auctions, distribute and trade them among fellow hobbyists and put them in shows.  There's always a market for home-grown tropical fish.  Numerous tanks are also needed to develop other strains of fish when line-breeding to enhance traits while restricting the genes from becoming too inbred (by mutually carrying the genes via cousins rather than by brothers and sisters).  After several generations of side-by-side breeding for these traits by related (but not too closely) fish carrying the same mutation, these cousins are then bred to each other to enhance the traits.  Once the line breeding produces only prodengy (offspring) displaying the desired new traits, the strain is said to be "fixed."  It takes a lot of tanks to carry and raise all the needed fish for developing new strain, which I enjoy doing.  Twenty five years ago I developed my own Koi Angelfish before I even knew it was in the stage of being developed by others.  My Koi was a prize-winning strain which took 1st in its Class in the American Cichlid Association's Convention back then.  I've since developed other Angelfish strains, such as Black Angels being derived out of a crossing "stripe-less" Angels, i.e., Dark Marbles first bred to be solid and Chocolate Angels first bred to the same characteristic, then crossed to create the solid Black (Most other Black Angels today will show darker stripes showing through the lighter overall black because they're developed from Black Lace, which were developed from the wild Silver/Black Striped Angel.  There are lots of things you can do with having many tanks, the imagination is limitless.
       
      Ray
       
             
       
      In a message dated 1/4/2015 3:59:33 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Funny you should mention the use of a lot of tap water.... Our water bill was doubled this cycle. My
      Husband wasn't thrilled but luckily water is the cheapest commodity. I will probably use the Aquavac for water changes but like you mentioned I'll get the siphon started then turn the tap off.  I used it to drain the tank last time but I didn't have the faucet adapter so my husband got it started. The hose is 50 feet and drains down to the utility sink in the basement. Even without the water going it drained pretty quick.  If I had multiple tanks to take care of I might look into the pump thing but this one tank is enough for me. 

      You ONLY have 90 tanks now? Are all of those tanks at your house now?  If you're not commercially breeding fish what do you do with all of them? I can't even imagine having 90 fish tanks...it's inconceivable to me. It sounds like you really love it and it brings you joy...that's what it's all about. 

      Adding pictures to the Yahoo groups page is easy(waaaayyy easier than taking care of aalllll those fish). 
      Once you log in, go to your Yahoo groups page and select Aquatic Life. Once there you'll see an icon for Photos on the  upper left side and you'll select that. Now you'll see an icon on the right for Albums. 
      If you select that you can create your album and after doing so it'll step you through selecting and uploading your opics to that album. In some groups you can email Pics as a part of your post but I see this group has that feature disabled. It's not a bad idea to disable it, cuts back on crap getting posted that may not be appropriate.

      I read a post on the frog group page that Petco was having the $1 a gallon sale so I went and got a 10 gallon tank to use in place of that 5 gal hex. Luckily I had the a Whisper filter, pump, gravel etc... I added a bottle of Safe Start and Prime and moved the Angels out of the 55 gal tank. Since that tank isn't cycled, I'm assuming it won't get cycled but that I'll do water changes however often they're  needed to keep the ammonia down?  When I do the water changes will I just treat it with Prime? For my wallets sake, I'm hoping I don't have to add a bottle of Safe Start every 2-3 days... 

      I know you've briefly gone over the steps I'll need to take with the household ammonia but would it be possible for you to give me something a little more detailed?  Like, will I be starting with the water and filters as they are now or would t be better to drain it again and start from scratch?  As we proceed, will I still have to do water changes on the 55 gal tank? I guess I still don't fully understand what happens when you do a fishless cycle. 

      Now that the tank will cycle w/o fish how is it decided how many fish can go in after the cycle finishes and when do they go in? When will the Angels go back in?





      On Jan 3, 2015, at 6:39 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:ô

       

      Re
      Hi Peg,
       
      Using 5 gallon buckets is the hard way to do water changes, unless you're really strong enough so that it doesn't bother you.  It's also very time consuming and some beginner hobbyists just give up on it at this point, feeling that it's too much work to have to do week after week.  Many of us, including myself, made water changes with buckets when we were just starting out, and when we were much younger < g >.  I'm glad for your sake that you got that AquaVac so that you can get away from carrying those buckets.  You're going to find though, that drawing water out of the tank with that water changer will use a lot of tap water.  One way to avoid that if possible is to start it running like that and then turn the faucet off and just let it syphon out the rest of the way, even though it will take longer.  By now, many of us use water pumps to remove the aquarium water and sometimes one to refill the tank, depending on the water change set-up we use.  On multiple tank set ups, one set of hoses and a pump is used to draw down the water while the previous tank is being filled, so that no time is wasted; it goes quite quickly.  All of the on-line aquarium supply houses carry a selection of water pumps of all sizes, or one can pick up a utility pump at Home Depot or Loews. 
       
      Trying to make this next long-story short, my biggest tanks now are a number of 125 gallon aquariums, but I had tanks up to 260 gallons when I needed them.  Besides these 125's I have several 100 gallon tanks, half a dozen 75 gallon tank, a dozen 50 gallon tanks, a few 55's, etc., etc.  I've cut way back from when I was commercially breeding fish and only have about 90 tanks right now (with a total volume of 3200 gallons).  Of course, I still breed fish right now as I thoroughly enjoy it.  At one time, a good number of years ago, I had a tropical fish store with a friend/partner of mine.  When I sold my half off to my partner, I went into importing fish, from Germany and Africa (Lake Malawi, Lake Victoria and Lake Tanganyika) and distributed them throughout the country (and as far as Australia).  It was never my actual profession as I was a printer, but I guess you could call it a second profession.  Probably spent as much time (or more) doing this as doing anything else.  When I retired from printing, I managed one of the largest Water Garden Suppliers dealing in ponds, their fish and their many plants, specializing in Water Lilies; each day was fun as it was totally enjoyable -- it certainly wasn't work.    Sorry, I don't have any pics in any folders, as no one ever taught me how to put photos up on line.  It's got to be really easy as everyone is doing it, but unless a person does this at least once -- by being walked through it -- it's all Greek, including all the internet terms.      
       
      I see you've found that the smaller the tank is, the harder it is to take care of.  Ammonia builds up a lot faster in a 5 gallon tank as compared to tank double that size.  As you don't yet know how much your fish will eat in 5 minutes, just start with a small amount -- more than just a certain number of flakes you can count on two hands.  If there's food left over after five minutes, cut back on the amount of food next time -- and the time after that -- until you get the idea of the proper amount.  A small aquarium fish's stomach might be the size of a garden pea; it doesn't  take much to satisfy the fish.  You'll never get to learn how much to feed if you keep giving more and waiting for the fish to eat that, and then give it more yet -- until the fish won't eat anymore.  You should never feed fish so much that they won't eat any more.  Fish don't know when to stop eating as they don't know that they'll be fed again the next day.  They'll keep eating as much as they can, while the opportunity presents itself.  It's not good for the fish to feed them this much.  It can even be a cause for a condition called "Bloat," which can ocassionally be fatal, depending on its actual cause.. 
       
      Yes, it can be a money pit if you let it.  Now that you have all the basic necessities, it shouldn't cost very much at all from here on in.  The major additions now would be more fish and maybe plants if you feel up to them.  None of this needs to (nor should) be done all at once anyway.  When the water level drops in the tank due to evaporation, none of the salt is lost.  Yes, you may replace water lost due to evaporation .  When adding new water to top the tank off because of this evaporation, you don't add any more salt.  The water parameters should tell you when to start doing PWC's, especially the nitrite which you don't want to allow to get too high, but even the ammonia should not be much above 4.0 ppm (3.0 ppm is better, although the cycle will take longer).  Too much of a drop in your KH will also tell you it's time to make a PWC.  You can start vacuuming after the second week -- and then, only do half the tank at a time, doing the other half the next week. 
       
      Ray  
       
        
      In a message dated 1/3/2015 4:46:09 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hey Ray!!
      My hubby picked-up the correct hose adapter and it's now on my utility sink waiting for me to
      take it for another spin. I put together a bin of things I may need when I go to use it so I don't have to 
      be running around looking for stuff while it's running or running around trying to find things so I can get started. I included a bowl and instant read digital thermometer so I could get as close as possible to the tank temp.  Carrying all those water buckets really took it out of me.   It wasn't so bad filling that little 5 gal bucket to take care of the 5 gal tank but the 55 wore me out. I can't even imagine how big your tanks are or how many you have. Not too long ago you mentioned breeding or something. Is that your profession?  How many tanks and how many did you own and do you own now?? I looked in the pics area thinking there might be some of all your tanks but there are so many folders that I never found it. 

      The 5 gallon hex was the original home for my African Dwarf Frogs. Even though they were teeny the tank was too small.  My first frog didn't make it and it was after that when I looked for someone to help guide me and found Suzy and Alyce. The next two frogs did better but Suzy really kept on me about moving them to a 10 gal aquarium. She knew that they'd just keep doing poorly in that 5 gal. 
      I had to wait until I had the funds to buy everything I needed and after I did they got moved but I still lost my boy frog.  My little girl Fannie is the only female I have now. She lives with the two boys in the 10 gal. Suzy and Alyce are now guiding me through the cycling of the tank.  With the 5 gal I had to do 50% water changes every other day just to fight the ammonia build up. 

      Losing the frogs in that tank and knowing how hard it was to keep things alive in it were my biggest reason to refrain from putting the Angels in there. They are way bigger than the frogs and I know how
      S
      You said you processed a refund but will you re-charge me when the pkg arrives??

      Sent from my iPhone't go hide. That same night I put food in the feeding ring and he ate with me standing there watching him. I hated the thought of netting him, moving him and starting all over with him traumatized again. He's just trusting me and I don't want to take the chance he'll never get past that. The other one isn't as timid or wasn't as traumatized, just this one guy. 

      Having these two alone in this tank has helped me learn about feeding them. You told me to only feed what they can eat in 5 minutes but

      (Message over 64 KB, truncated)
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56385 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 1/6/2015
      Subject: Re: Numbers for 55 Gal 1/5/15
      No, these were taken Monday night around 930 pm.

      I rec'd your email about adding 3 tsp around 1250 pm. You said that I should add the ammonia  mñv ccć x  then wait  min for ammonia to circulate then take ammonia reading. I did exactly as you asked, then tested only ammonia and sent that number by itself.

      Later you asked that I test the 10 gal and the 55 and send the results. These are the results for the 55 gal. 

      Peg
      Soon Opening: Hoopin' It Up Designs
                                Custom Embroidery & Embellishments

      On Jan 6, 2015, at 1:59 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      As your message contains no other message beneath this for reference, I'm not sure what they represent.  Are these numbers the test results immediately after your adding more ammonia? 
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/5/2015 9:33:16 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Ph 7.6, HPh 8.0, Ammonia 4, Nitrite 5, Nitrate 40, KH 4

      Peg
      peg@...
      Soon Opening: Hoopin' It Up Designs
      Custom Embroidery & Embellishments

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56386 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 1/6/2015
      Subject: Re: Question on Fluval set-up
      I agree about not continuing use of the supplied carbon sponges-the reason carbon is always supplied by manufacturers is to keep you buying it & another misnomer is regularly changing your inert media. In practice filter media is good for much longer then most manufacturers tell us-until it almost falling to pieces which can be many years & in the case of bio balls or ceramic chips they are virtually indestructible. Ordinarily you don't need to use carbon unless you are removing medications from the tank after the course of treatment is over. This is especially so in smaller filters where space is at a premium so unless you are removing medications the carbon is better replaced with inert sponges, ceramic media or water polishing floss to give you as much area for the beneficial bacteria to colonise as possible.

      I have no personal experience of the smaller filters that have sealed replaceable media but I understand that you can still fit a regular sponge in place of the carbon unit because the replacement units are generally all the same size. Worst case scenario would be buy some inert sponge & cut it to size yourself for these. It would probably be a lot cheaper.

      An example of the longevity of filter media, my canister has a blue sponge on top of the lower basket which Eheim suggest is best replaced 'periodically'. I've had this device since 2007/8 & that sponge is just as good as the day I bought it. My nylon pot scrubbers also date from around that time & although some are getting a bit 'loose' they still work fine & can be trimmed with a pair of scissors when they start to unravel.

        John<o)))<

      On 6 January 2015 at 06:49, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      DO NOT USE PURIGEN !!!
       
      In a message dated 1/5/2015 9:14:01 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      It wasn't in use in my pic (sorry) but after I read your response I looked at it and saw that the top of the waterfall where the bubbles come out is up above and to the left of the input for the Fluval. Since the bubbles 
      come out and float up to the top it appeared it wouldn't be a problem. I started using it and I haven't heard tes
      any pssssst's. Thank you for looking at it though. 

      Can I ask you another question about the Fluval? Mine has 3 media baskets and came with Fluval brand media. Can you use media made by other companies? I'm interested in the product by Seachem called "Purigen."  Just wondering if I could use it in the Fluval?

      Peg
      Soon Opening: Hoopin' It Up Designs
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      On Jan 5, 2015, at 6:43 PM, SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Hi Peg,

        Sorry for my late response-I'm still a little confused as I can only find 4 pictures of yours in an album entitled "Peg's Pics" but none of them appear to show the waterfall decoration in use yet but your description implies it is in use-am I barking up the wrong tree here?

        John<o)))<

      On 3 January 2015 at 17:31, Peg Yruegas peg@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      Thank you! 
      Did you see the waterfall piece on the far left? The illusion of the water "falling" is the bubbles from the air stone traveling back along the bottom and up the back.
      The top of the waterfall is about 2-3 inches above and 8-10 inches to the side if the intake. So, the bubbles are released above the intake. I'm hoping that's ok for he Fluval.

      Sent from my iPhone

      On Jan 3, 2015, at 6:00 AM, SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Yes, I've found them Peg thank you. All your hard work is paying off as it looks very nice.

        John<o)))<

      On 2 January 2015 at 22:52, Peg Yruegas peg@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      Thank you. I put a pic in my folder which shows the "waterfall" and the Fluval intake ting do you can see how it's set up. 

      There's another piece on the right which is s cave and it sends bubbles up from 2 places. I didn't connect it because it makes too much noise.!

      Sent from my iPhone

      On Jan 2, 2015, at 4:21 PM, ptimlin@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      The idea is that if you get excessive bubbles going into the intake of the Fluval you may cause too much air to build up and break the siphon causing the fluval to stop pumping. 


      So as far as the waterfall is concerned, as long as it isn't creating a lot of bubbles then it shouldn't be a problem. You can tell if the Fluval is taking in bubbles as they a distinct "pssssst" sound when they hit the impeller. Occasional "psssts" are usually fine. But more than one a second or two you might want to space them out a bit.

      Also, waterfall type water flow, especially the output from power filters, do not usually create many bubbles unless they are much higher than the water surface. Normally in a tank this isn't an issue unless you allow the water level (from evaporation) to fall too low. If you make sure you keep the water level up, it shouldn't be an issue.

      Patrick




      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56387 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/6/2015
      Subject: Re: Questions on re-establishing tank
      AOL Email
      Okay, that's good.  With only a small concentration of 1% to 2%, you may need to add more of this as compared with other household ammonia brands; no problem though and it looks good so far. 
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/6/2015 4:43:15 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      No, not laundry detergent. The label says "Austins Clear Ammonia"
      Active ingredients Ammonium Hydroxide (CAS 1336-21-6) Contains no Phosphorus 

      Peg
      Soon Opening: Hoopin' It Up Designs
                                Custom Embroidery & Embellishments

      On Jan 6, 2015, at 1:54 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Hmmm, I since found that Austins Clear Ammonia is said to contain 2% Ammonium Hydroxide.  You don't happen to have Austin's Clear Ammonia Laundry Detergent do you?
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/5/2015 9:33:05 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      I'm using Austin Clear Ammonia. The labeling didn't state the percentage. I so I looked up the MSDS. 
      It states Ammonium hydroxide 1.0% by wt.  There are other numbers but appear to be related to exposure limits.

      Peg
      Soon Opening: Hoopin' It Up Designs
                                Custom Embroidery & Embellishments

      On Jan 5, 2015, at 12:51 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Okay, since you need the ammonia level higher to start your cycle, you'll need to add more to increase this "1.0 ppm" level.  I'm sure the cycle has already started though, for you to have nitrite present.  Just how much ammonia was consumed between yesterday and today though, is very uncertain.  Also, while I tried to make things easier by just adding teaspoons, I already did mention that the size of drops can vary depending on the size of the openings in droppers.  Still, I've found no info saying that a teaspoon holds any less than 50 drop -- and some sources say 70 or even 98 drops.  Three teaspoons should have been enough to bring the ammonia up to at least 2.5 ppm yesterday.  When you read this, add 3 more teaspoons of ammonia and post a number of what this level reaches after allowing this new ammonia to circulate for about 20 minutes.  I'll try to get back here within 2 hours, and we'll see if you need to add more.  While most sources state that household ammonia is a 10% solution, others say from 5% to 10% and yet others say between 2% and 10%.  With this much possible variation, it would be helpful if you would post this ammonia's strength (by percentage on the label)  here to give some idea of the solution's concentration.
       
      Ray
         
       
      In a message dated 1/5/2015 12:21:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      I checked the ammonia in the 55 gal this morning. It's now at "1".  I have not added any
      Additional ammonia since the initial 3 tsp. 

      Peg
      Soon Opening: Hoopin' It Up Designs
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      On Jan 5, 2015, at 8:41 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Just wanting to assure you, that fish don't have long memories although the older they get the greater their fear will be of the net -- even if they were never netted before.  The younger they are, the less fear they'll show.  Oh, so the Angels are about 2" in diameter (just wanted to get some idea of the bioload they represent).  Incidentally, a much less stressful way of capturing fish is to submerge an open plastic fish bag into the tank and guide the fish into it with a net.  Then quickly close the bag before the fish can turn around and get out.  Just move the bag from one tank to the next after that and if you need to make more room in the tank that the fish is going to, just spill most of the water out of the bag back into the first tank with your hand keeping the bag mostly closed.  A solid clear container will also work, like a glass jar, but anything that's opaque will easily wise the fish up to his being captured.   Another "incidentally,"  it's best you added some gravel to the 10 gallon tank -- not because of it holding bacteria, but because it will put the angels more at ease as opposed to having a bare glass bottom.  On the time it takes for cycling a tank, I thought you already knew that, but since you ask a fishless cycle takes between 4 and 6 weeks -- more often closer to six weeks.  There's where you can add Safe Start (or, Dr. Tim's One and Only -- or a combination of this and the product Dawn prefers).  You can't go wrong that way, and any bacteria supplement will only help speed matters along as long as you supply them with ammonia.  For cycling a tank with fish, it can take even longer as you can't allow large amounts of organic wastes to accumulate.  With needing to do PWC's, even just to keep the nitrate level down once that starts to elevate, this limits the amount of ammonia in the water which the bacteria need to thrive on as you'll need to keep removing much of it.
       
      Okay, the numbers for the 10 gallon look just fine.  Check them each day, although you can leave the GH out as that remains constant.  Add prime each day and if the tank requires a PWC, add the Prime afterwards.  As you're not going to be cycling this tank, do PWC's on it as soon as you see any elevation in the ammonia, which could be every day, but keeping the ammonia at an absolute minimum each day should only require minimum PWC's.  Still, let us know what these numbers are.  As for the numbers in your 55, it's off to a good start although it's unusual to have the nitrite this high so early, when your ammonia is only at 0.25 ppm.  Still, this can't pose any danger when there's sn no fish in the tank. To establish exactly how much household ammonia will bring the ammonia level up to 4.0 ppm, it would have been preferred to test for it right after time (perhaps 20 minutes) was allowed for it to be thoroughly mixed in with the tank water.  Give us a test result for it now and don't add any more ammonia until I can evaluate it.  Your Angelfish sound very nice.  Let me add, that as each one has their own "personality," they'll all behave slightly different within the confines of Angelfish behavior. 
       
      With having a good number of tanks needing maintenance, one needs to have a system in place to attend them all on a regular basis.  Naturally, time just wouldn't permit attending to all the tanks in a day (or two), so a schedule needs to be determined as to which tanks get their weekly maintenance on which days throughout the week or throughout the month.  Once that's planned out -- and it's always good to draw up a chart, like a calendar, to keep a better check on the scheduling -- it makes things much easier.  As for breeding, if you happen to add some livebearers (Guppies, Swordtails, Platies, etc.) somewhere down the line after getting you 55 squared away, they'll do the breeding for you without your having to do anything yourself.  As any fry not finding shelter will be eaten, you'll need to remove them and place them in their own tank for raising,  This is how hobbyists first develop MTS, and how you may likely develop this syndrome also, after a while.  Other uses for more tanks than would seem needed just for maintaining a community tank or two is for maintaining species that are threatened and/or endangered in the wild.  I'm presently maintaining several tanks of endangered species, sometimes with some of them breeding and I then distribute them to other hobbyists who also maintain some endangered fishes.  Sometimes these fish are threatened in the wild because of their habitat being destroyed.  If they go extinct in the wild, with keeping captive populations in the aquarium, there will be stocks of them to replenish their native environments if and when they can be restored.  There are some Pleco's more ideally suited for the small aquarium and which get to a maximum size of around 6".  They're not "gross," and do a nice job of keeping the tank free of most types of algae.  The common Pleco gets huge however, and should preferable be housed only in very large tanks to prevent from stunting them, which is why I suggested the one we were just discussing might be best moved to a larger aquarium.                     
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/5/2015 2:30:45 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      I know you keep telling me fishless cycling is the best and that its less stressful for the fish but 
      I tell ya Ray, my yellow angel had just started to trust me, she wasn't going to hide when she saw 
      approaching and she was finally eating when I put food in for her.  I feared netting her and moving her 
      to a temp tank would just spook her even more. I don't know if fish hold grudges but hopefully she'll 
      come around again once she gets back in her permanent home. How long does a fishless cycle usually take??  I've only been thru one cycle and that's the one I just finished with my frogs. I was so happy yesterday when the nitrates spiked and the ammonia dropped to zero. I tested the new 10 gal tank
      Tonight. The numbers were Ph 7.6, HPh 8, Ammonia 0, Nitrites 0, Nitrates 5, GH8, KH 6   I'm glad I had almost everything needed to get the 10 gal going ....well with the exception of the tank. That worked out pretty good. That sale came Along at a good time! ;p


      Today, the numbers for the 55 gal tank were:  Ph 7.6, HPh 8.2, Ammonia .25,  Nitrites 2, Nitrates 40, GH 8, KH 4.  I added 3 tsp of ammonia after I tested the water. I'll test in the morning and let you know how the added ammonia affected the numbers. The Angels from tip of nose to end of tail are about 3 inches and 
      from bottom of fin to top of fin about 4 inches. They have those long things that hang down like whiskers... 
      I don't know what they're called but I didn't count those. They're pretty nice sized but not adult size yet.  I live Angels. They're one of my favorites but the 2 big ones I re-homed were kind of aggressive and 
      have me afraid to get anymore. They terrorized the snails and drove the little fish to hide.  They were intimidating and used fin-Nipping to get the fish out of their space.  The bigger one, I believed to be 
      A male was marked like a tiger. He looked like he was velvet, just beautiful. He would "patrol" an area
      While the other one was hanging out and then they'd switch places.   Very odd behavior. 
      I didn't know until very recently that they were part of the Cichlid family. Sounds like you came up with some beauties.

      It's hard to imagine 90 tanks in 1 house. My head would be swimming as I tried to remember what I
      Needed to do with each. Breeding sounds interesting but I have no idea how it's done or what needs to happen.  Sometime when you get pics up, I'd like to see them! Lol!!! Sounds like the new group member
      Has interests similar to yours. He was talking about the big Pleco and I remembered the ones that are up at our Jacks Pets. People have bought them and they get HUGE and the people can't deal with them. They have some that are 2 feet long. They're so gross. I had some pics of them. I'll have to see if I can find them. 
      They gross me out. 

      I





      Sent from my iPad

      On Jan 4, 2015, at 6:56 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Alright Peg, you've made the best choice by choosing fish-less cycling for the 55 gallon.  Yes, as you found out, large water changes can add to your water bill.  Depending on which part of there country you live in, your water can be almost as cheap as air or it can get rather expensive for comparably small quantities of it.  As am example, I'm charged $4.12 for each 100 cubic feet (748 gallons) of water -- plus the monthly $8.85 facilities charge no matter how much or how little water I use.  The "facilities" charge pays for the infrastructure of pipes getting the water to my house, the pumping and filtration of the water at the plant and anything else that the water company passes on to their consumers.  By this you can see that I'd use almost 400 cubic feet of water a week if I did 90% PWC's on all tanks each week, or 1600 cubic feet per month, at a charge of $65.92 each month.  However, 24 years ago I switched to my private well -- of which this water is exceedingly better for maintaining and raising fish -- and it only costs me the price of the electricity use to pump the water; next to nothing.  We had another moderator on this Group up until 5 or 6 years ago, who lived in Louisiana.  His water bill was practically nothing. 
      Anyhow, with cycling the 55 gallon tank, you will do no PWC's until the cycle's complete.  At that time, you'll need to do one large PWC to the extent of removing all of the excess nitrate, at least anything over over 40 ppm and preferably even more -- enough to get the nitrate down to 20 ppm (or even lower) is always nice.  When that time comes, just give us a test reading of what your nitrate level is, and we'll tell you exactly how much water to change.  At this time, you'll add your two Angelfish and three Cory's back into the 55 and any other fishes you also want to include.  
       
      Now, getting to the 10 gallon tank; you will not be cycling this tank but will just be relying on PWC's to keep the water free of contaminants.  Therefore, there's no need to add Safe Start, but keepi4 Prime in there all the time (adding daily) would be helpful.  Yeah, I told you abouit Petco's $1 per gallon sales -- I just didn't know when to expect them.  Can't beat those prices, and they usually have these sales at least 3 times a year.  That you've already added Safe Start to this 10 gallon tank is fine, although the bacteria may starve out because of very minimal amount of ammonia being kept in the water all of the time.  No need to add any more Safe Start to this tank.  Yes, you will need to take daily ammonia tests and change enough water in quantity and in intervals to keep the ammonia level as low as possible.  You already have the idea.  You may report the ammonia test results for this tank here and I'll tell you exactly how much water needs to be changed.  I see you added the Whisper filter to enable any nitrifying bacteria that's able to grow, a chance to do just that by populating the media -- with as little ammonia as we're going to allow.  It appears you added the fish this afternoon, please post the ammonia level for this tank tomorrow.  I don't expect it to have changed very much, but we need to have a figure to work with when taken by surprise.   BTW, while on these fish, about what size are these Angelfish -- their body diameter excluding the fins?  How big are the Cory's?
       
      Now, back to cycling the 55.  No need to change any water, even now.  I'll go over the steps once more.  Let me know if you need anything else explained after I'm done -- if it's not very clear.  First, add 3 drops per gallon of clear (not sudsy) household ammonia to this tank.  As a teaspoon hold about 50 drops, 3 teaspoons of this ammonia for starters.  After giving it some time to thoroughly mix, do an ammonia test.  It should be near 3 ppm, but with this much ammonia it probably will not exceed this.  You may even need to add more, but I won't tell you to do this initially as I don't want your ammonia level too high either.  It's always easier to add but much harder to remove without doing PWC's.  Depending on your ammonia level after allowing it to mix, I'll let you know how much (if any) more you may need to add.  Once you have the ammonia level where we want it -- and I believe I may aim for 4 ppm as an amount to maintain -- you'll need to test the ammonia tomorrow (and every day) and add just enough more ammonia to bring the level back up to 4 ppm if any was used.  If none was used, then test it the next day.  When you see a drop in the ammonia, report it here to be able to know how much more ammonia to add to bring the level back up to where we prefer to maintain it.  After about 10 to 12 days, you should start to see a noticeable increase in the nitrite.  At this time, you may test for both of these products and you'll see the nitrite spike to a certain high level after another 10 to 12 days and then slowly decline after this.  Keep adding just enough more ammonia to keep the level at the predetermined 4 ppm.  Towards to end of the cycle, as it's completing, you'll find that more and more ammonia is being used up every day after adding the make-up amount the previous day.  Very near the end, after adding the amount of ammonia to bring it back up to 4 ppm, the next day's ammonia level will read about 0.5 ppm or even 0.25 ppm.  When the next day's ammonia reading is zero after adding the needed amount of ammonia the previous day, and the next day's nitrite level is also zero, you'll know that there's now a sufficient amount of both types of nitrifying bacteria in your filters to be able to convert 4 ppm of ammonia.  This 4 ppm is usually a bit more, and is in most cases not any less, than a properly stocked tank's fish will produce in one day.  At this time, you can discontinue adding the household ammonia and feel free to add all of the fish you want to include in this tank, knowing that all of their ammonia will be converted to nitrite and then nitrate each day.  Your tank will be fully cycled.  As a cycle being able to convert 4 ppm of ammonia per day may be slightly more than your full stock of fish will produce in one day -- which may only be 3 ppm -- but this only means that your tank will be adequately cycled to handle the waste from all of your fish and if that waste is no more than 3 ppm. the bacteria populations will adjust (reduce) to quantities that can live on 3 ppm rather than 4 ppm -- a portion will starve out in readjusting, but you'll have at least as much bacteria to start with than you need.  The 4 ppm constant ammonia level finishes the nitrite cycling part faster as there's more food to feed on. 
       
      IMPORTANT now, before adding any fish -- this is the time at the end of the cycling period when you must change enough water to remove the excess nitrates which have been building up all along.           
       
      Thanks for the instructions on how to post pics.  I've been talked through this in the past, but never actually been "walked" through this, as with someone being right here next to me showing me exactly what needs to be done and how it's actually done.  I'm keeping your notes handy though, but I'll get to it as time permits -- and as a better browser will allow (I need a 'puter update); thanks.
       
      I think I covered everything on cycling a tank.  I know it's not easy to understand what's happening, but I hope my explanations through these steps makes it easier to be understood. 
       
      Oh yeah, Yes, I ONLY have 90 tanks right now < g >.  And yes, they're all at my house right now -- wall to wall in the basement and rack to rack, isle to isle.  For hobbyists who may be comparatively new to fish keeping, it should be explained that after a while many of us develop "MTS," or . . . Multi-Tank Syndrome.  Some hobbyist go to the extent of building their own fish rooms in their basements and others even go so far as to build separate fish houses in their backyards.  A very good friend of mine and a nationally know aquarist at one time had 150 tanks in operation before he retired,  Now he has about 50 tanks -- he had to cut back (he's 86 years old now).  Another good friend of mine who specialized in Killifish rented out a storefront and maintained 300 tanks.  He'd clean 10 tanks a day and by the end of the month he had them all cleaned and would start all over again in their maintenance.  He had to cut back too, as he took a fall off of a ladder and hurt himself.  Fortunately, he's okay now, but he's getting up there in years also.  What do I do with them?  -- I sell them to the local pet shops, submit them in the various clubs' auctions, distribute and trade them among fellow hobbyists and put them in shows.  There's always a market for home-grown tropical fish.  Numerous tanks are also needed to develop other strains of fish when line-breeding to enhance traits while restricting the genes from becoming too inbred (by mutually carrying the genes via cousins rather than by brothers and sisters).  After several generations of side-by-side breeding for these traits by related (but not too closely) fish carrying the same mutation, these cousins are then bred to each other to enhance the traits.  Once the line breeding produces only prodengy (offspring) displaying the desired new traits, the strain is said to be "fixed."  It takes a lot of tanks to carry and raise all the needed fish for developing new strain, which I enjoy doing.  Twenty five years ago I developed my own Koi Angelfish before I even knew it was in the stage of being developed by others.  My Koi was a prize-winning strain which took 1st in its Class in the American Cichlid Association's Convention back then.  I've since developed other Angelfish strains, such as Black Angels being derived out of a crossing "stripe-less" Angels, i.e., Dark Marbles first bred to be solid and Chocolate Angels first bred to the same characteristic, then crossed to create the solid Black (Most other Black Angels today will show darker stripes showing through the lighter overall black because they're developed from Black Lace, which were developed from the wild Silver/Black Striped Angel.  There are lots of things you can do with having many tanks, the imagination is limitless.
       
      Ray
       
             
       
      In a message dated 1/4/2015 3:59:33 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Funny you should mention the use of a lot of tap water.... Our water bill was doubled this cycle. My
      Husband wasn't thrilled but luckily water is the cheapest commodity. I will probably use the Aquavac for water changes but like you mentioned I'll get the siphon started then turn the tap off.  I used it to drain the tank last time but I didn't have the faucet adapter so my husband got it started. The hose is 50 feet and drains down to the utility sink in the basement. Even without the water going it drained pretty quick.  If I had multiple tanks to take care of I might look into the pump thing but this one tank is enough for me. 

      You ONLY have 90 tanks now? Are all of those tanks at your house now?  If you're not commercially breeding fish what do you do with all of them? I can't even imagine having 90 fish tanks...it's inconceivable to me. It sounds like you really love it and it brings you joy...that's what it's all about. 

      Adding pictures to the Yahoo groups page is easy(waaaayyy easier than taking care of aalllll those fish). 
      Once you log in, go to your Yahoo groups page and select Aquatic Life. Once there you'll see an icon for Photos on the  upper left side and you'll select that. Now you'll see an icon on the right for Albums. 
      If you select that you can create your album and after doing so it'll step you through selecting and uploading your opics to that album. In some groups you can email Pics as a part of your post but I see this group has that feature disabled. It's not a bad idea to disable it, cuts back on crap getting posted that may not be appropriate.

      I read a post on the frog group page that Petco was having the $1 a gallon sale so I went and got a 10 gallon tank to use in place of that 5 gal hex. Luckily I had the a Whisper filter, pump, gravel etc... I added a bottle of Safe Start and Prime and moved the Angels out of the 55 gal tank. Since that tank isn't cycled, I'm assuming it won't get cycled but that I'll do water changes however often they're  needed to keep the ammonia down?  When I do the water changes will I just treat it with Prime? For my wallets sake, I'm hoping I don't have to add a bottle of Safe Start every 2-3 days... 

      I know you've briefly gone over the steps I'll need to take with the household ammonia but would it be possible for you to give me something a little more detailed?  Like, will I be starting with the water and filters as they are now or would t be better to drain it again and start from scratch?  As we proceed, will I still have to do water changes on the 55 gal tank? I guess I still don't fully understand what happens when you do a fishless cycle. 

      Now that the tank will cycle w/o fish how is it decided how many fish can go in after the cycle finishes and when do they go in? When will the Angels go back in?





      On Jan 3, 2015, at 6:39 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:ô

       

      Re
      Hi Peg,
       
      Using 5 gallon buckets is the hard way to do water changes, unless you're really strong enough so that it doesn't bother you.  It's also very time consuming and some beginner hobbyists just give up on it at this point, feeling that it's too much work to have to do week after week.  Many of us, including myself, made water changes with buckets when we were just starting out, and when we were much younger < g >.  I'm glad for your sake that you got that AquaVac so that you can get away from carrying those buckets.  You're going to find though, that drawing water out of the tank with that water changer will use a lot of tap water.  One way to avoid that if possible is to start it running like that and then turn the faucet off and just let it syphon out the rest of the way, even though it will take longer.  By now, many of us use water pumps to remove the aquarium water and sometimes one to refill the tank, depending on the water change set-up we use.  On multiple tank set ups, one set of hoses and a pump is used to draw down the water while the previous tank is being filled, so that no time is wasted; it goes quite quickly.  All of the on-line aquarium supply houses carry a selection of water pumps of all sizes, or one can pick up a utility pump at Home Depot or Loews. 
       
      Trying to make this next long-story short, my biggest tanks now are a number of 125 gallon aquariums, but I had tanks up to 260 gallons when I needed them.  Besides these 125's I have several 100 gallon tanks, half a dozen 75 gallon tank, a dozen 50 gallon tanks, a few 55's, etc., etc.  I've cut way back from when I was commercially breeding fish and only have about 90 tanks right now (with a total volume of 3200 gallons).  Of course, I still breed fish right now as I thoroughly enjoy it.  At one time, a good number of years ago, I had a tropical fish store with a friend/partner of mine.  When I sold my half off to my partner, I went into importing fish, from Germany and Africa (Lake Malawi, Lake Victoria and Lake Tanganyika) and distributed them throughout the country (and as far as Australia).  It was never my actual profession as I was a printer, but I guess you could call it a second profession.  Probably spent as much time (or more) doing this as doing anything else.  When I retired from printing, I managed one of the largest Water Garden Suppliers dealing in ponds, their fish and their many plants, specializing in Water Lilies; each day was fun as it was totally enjoyable -- it certainly wasn't work.    Sorry, I don't have any pics in any folders, as no one ever taught me how to put photos up on line.  It's got to be really easy as everyone is doing it, but unless a person does this at least once -- by being walked through it -- it's all Greek, including all the internet terms.      
       
      I see you've found that the smaller the tank is, the harder it is to take care of.  Ammonia builds up a lot faster in a 5 gallon tank as compared to tank double that size.  As you don't yet know how much your fish will eat in 5 minutes, just start with a small amount -- more than just a certain number of flakes you can count on two hands.  If there's food left over after five minutes, cut back on the amount of food next time -- and the time after that -- until you get the idea of the proper amount.  A small aquarium fish's stomach might be the size of a garden pea; it doesn't  take much to satisfy the fish.  You'll never get to learn how much to feed if you keep giving more and waiting for the fish to eat that, and then give it more yet -- until the fish won't eat anymore.  You should never feed fish so much that they won't eat any more.  Fish don't know when to stop eating as they don't know that they'll be fed again the next day.  They'll keep eating as much as they can, while the opportunity presents itself.  It's not good for the fish to feed them this much.  It can even be a cause for a condition called "Bloat," which can ocassionally be fatal, depending on its actual cause.. 
       
      Yes, it can be a money pit if you let it.  Now that you have all the basic necessities, it shouldn't cost very much at all from here on in.  The major additions now would be more fish and maybe plants if you feel up to them.  None of this needs to (nor should) be done all at once anyway.  When the water level drops in the tank due to evaporation, none of the salt is lost.  Yes, you may replace water lost due to evaporation .  When adding new water to top the tank off because of this evaporation, you don't add any more salt.  The wat

      (Message over 64 KB, truncated)
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56388 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/6/2015
      Subject: Re: Numbers for 55 Gal 1/5/15
      AOL Email
      Okay, thanks.  Please include the message you're replying to though, to make it a little easier to follow.  These numbers are fairly good, but we'll need to keep a closer eye on the nitrite and KH.  Don't want the nitrite to rise too much nor the KH to drop too much.  Today's readings should tell us more.  Please post them at the usual time of day you'll be testing them before adding any more ammonia -- and DON'T add any more ammonia yet until I have a chance to see these newest numbers.  Also, what time of day HAVE you set for doing this work, just so I know when to check back?  Would it usually be around the 9:30 PM you tested it last night?
       
      BTW, you'll notice here that some of your message came through as "mnvccc x"  and also, it just says "wait (blank) min."  I know you said you waited 20 minutes (I don't know why there's a blank space), but did the part -- "mnvccc x" just get scrambled up in cyberspace?  I have no idea what it means.
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/6/2015 4:46:37 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      No, these were taken Monday night around 930 pm.

      I rec'd your email about adding 3 tsp around 1250 pm. You said that I should add the ammonia  mñv ccć x  then wait  min for ammonia to circulate then take ammonia reading. I did exactly as you asked, then tested only ammonia and sent that number by itself.

      Later you asked that I test the 10 gal and the 55 and send the results. These are the results for the 55 gal. 

      Peg
      Soon Opening: Hoopin' It Up Designs
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      On Jan 6, 2015, at 1:59 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      As your message contains no other message beneath this for reference, I'm not sure what they represent.  Are these numbers the test results immediately after your adding more ammonia? 
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/5/2015 9:33:16 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Ph 7.6, HPh 8.0, Ammonia 4, Nitrite 5, Nitrate 40, KH 4

      Peg
      peg@...
      Soon Opening: Hoopin' It Up Designs
      Custom Embroidery & Embellishments

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56389 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 1/6/2015
      Subject: Numbers for 55 Gal snd 10 Gal 1/6/15
      Good morning!!! How are you? Thought I'd send my test results early
      today. It's cold and SNOWY
      here today, brrrrrrr!! Great day to curl up and try to keep warm. I'm
      thinking with the 55 gal numbers where they are, you'll have me add
      ammonia.....let's see would it be 1 tsp??
      55 Gal.
      Ph 7.6, HPh 7.4, ammonia 2, Nitrite 5, Nitrate pp 40, KH 3


      10 a Gal
      Ph 7.6, HPh 8.2, ammonia .25, Nitrite 0, Nitrate 5, GH 8, KH 6
      I added Prime this morning just to be safe. With ammonia now present,
      would you have me do PWC or wait
      Until it's a little higher?
      Peg
      peg@...
      Soon Opening: Hoopin' It Up Designs
      Custom Embroidery & Embellishmentsh
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56390 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/6/2015
      Subject: Re: Numbers for 55 Gal snd 10 Gal 1/6/15
      AOL Email
      Good Morning Peg,
       
      PLEASE include the message you're replying to, to make things easier to follow.  Doing well, thanks; temperature here right now is 18 o.  Expecting snow somewhere around noon -- fortunately only about an inch (YAAAAY).  Looks like you're getting a good idea of this cycle process.  Yes, I MAY say for you to add just 1 teaspoon of the ammonia today, to bring the level up to 3.0 ppm, but since you made the previous tests only 12 hours ago -- at 9:30 PM, ideally we need to wait 24 hours to see how much more ammonia will be consumed.  If you want to do this work at a more convenient time for yourself (rather than late in the evening), set a time that's good and stick to it.  Let me know what time that will be.  We can then plan on how much more ammonia to add for this day (only).  Right now, add no more than 1/8 teaspoon of Baking Soda (Sodium Bicarbonate) if you have it, and do a KH test after allowing 20 minutes to elapse; post it here when you get it.  Might need a bit more (I'm thinking like perhaps 1/4 teaspoon total, but we don't want to add too much all at once). 
       
      On the 10 gallon, YES, do a 75% PWC on this tank today, and of course add Prime.  The 75% sounds a lot, but we want to keep the ammonia at an absolute minimum, not having a cycle in place.  We'll see what tomorrow brings on this tank.  Might possibly need to do another PWC, and possible larger, but this remains to be seen.  I'd suggest doing a 90% PWC today if I thought the 15% difference would make a noticeable disparity in the ammonia level by tomorrow, but I don't believe it should.  Some hobbyists' water is of a quality that doesn't allow for doing large PWC's without stressing their fish.  When I first took into account all of your tap water parameters, it was obvious to me that your water would be fine for doing larger PWC's; I wouldn't have suggested this procedure otherwise.  THIS would be a situation where the Purigen you asked about would help (although not an absolute necessity).  This product could help keep the ammonia down as we wait for the 55 to cycle, if it can be found easily.
       
      Getting right to your question on Purigen's use for the 55, perhaps you don't know what it does.  It will remove the ammonia in your tank, and at the same time completely starve out the nitrifying bacteria, preventing a cycle.  This is why I said not to use it, but not because it's a bad product for its purpose.  You just don't want to use it in the 55. 
       
      .
      Ray
       
      In a message dated 1/6/2015 9:21:59 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Good morning!!! How are you? Thought I'd send my test results early
      today. It's cold and SNOWY
      here today, brrrrrrr!! Great day to curl up and try to keep warm. I'm
      thinking with the 55 gal numbers where they are, you'll have me add
      ammonia.....let's see would it be 1 tsp??
      55 Gal.
      Ph 7.6, HPh 7.4, ammonia 2, Nitrite 5, Nitrate pp 40, KH 3

      10 a Gal
      Ph 7.6, HPh 8.2, ammonia .25, Nitrite 0, Nitrate 5, GH 8, KH 6
      I added Prime this morning just to be safe. With ammonia now present,
      would you have me do PWC or wait
      Until it's a little higher?
      Peg
      peg@...
      Soon Opening: Hoopin' It Up Designs
      Custom Embroidery & Embellishmentsh

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56391 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 1/6/2015
      Subject: Re: Numbers for 55 Gal 1/5/15
      I have no idea what language it is that came thru in that message. Crazy huh? Considering everything goes thru a cloud in who knows where, back thru another cloud on the sunny side of China,  around the world in 80 days and then thru Yahoo to the groups posting page to you, it's amazing any of it is understandable! Good grief!!

      I usually test first thing in the morning but tested last night because I knew you'd be looking for the numbers. I sent the numbers for both tanks, did you get these?

      Sent from my iPhone

      On Jan 6, 2015, at 9:16 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Okay, thanks.  Please include the message you're replying to though, to make it a little easier to follow.  These numbers are fairly good, but we'll need to keep a closer eye on the nitrite and KH.  Don't want the nitrite to rise too much nor the KH to drop too much.  Today's readings should tell us more.  Please post them at the usual time of day you'll be testing them before adding any more ammonia -- and DON'T add any more ammonia yet until I have a chance to see these newest numbers.  Also, what time of day HAVE you set for doing this work, just so I know when to check back?  Would it usually be around the 9:30 PM you tested it last night?
       
      BTW, you'll notice here that some of your message came through as "mnvccc x"  and also, it just says "wait (blank) min."  I know you said you waited 20 minutes (I don't know why there's a blank space), but did the part -- "mnvccc x" just get scrambled up in cyberspace?  I have no idea what it means.
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/6/2015 4:46:37 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      No, these were taken Monday night around 930 pm.

      I rec'd your email about adding 3 tsp around 1250 pm. You said that I should add the ammonia  mñv ccć x  then wait  min for ammonia to circulate then take ammonia reading. I did exactly as you asked, then tested only ammonia and sent that number by itself.

      Later you asked that I test the 10 gal and the 55 and send the results. These are the results for the 55 gal. 

      Peg
      Soon Opening: Hoopin' It Up Designs
                                Custom Embroidery & Embellishments

      On Jan 6, 2015, at 1:59 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      As your message contains no other message beneath this for reference, I'm not sure what they represent.  Are these numbers the test results immediately after your adding more ammonia? 
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/5/2015 9:33:16 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Ph 7.6, HPh 8.0, Ammonia 4, Nitrite 5, Nitrate 40, KH 4

      Peg
      peg@...
      Soon Opening: Hoopin' It Up Designs
      Custom Embroidery & Embellishments

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56392 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 1/6/2015
      Subject: Re: Numbers for 55 Gal snd 10 Gal 1/6/15
      Before I add the baking soda I wanted to let you know that I have Seachem Malawai Victoria buffer on hand. I've been using it on my frog tank. 
      I dint know if the baking soda does the same thing as the buffer but the baking soda had been discussed and then Suzy went with the buffer. Just letting you know before 
      I put the baking soda in. 

      I usually do all testing in the Am. Before 930 most days but sometimes I'm gone and then I gotta do them as time allows. 
      Sent from my iPhone

      On Jan 6, 2015, at 10:01 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Good Morning Peg,
       
      PLEASE include the message you're replying to, to make things easier to follow.  Doing well, thanks; temperature here right now is 18 o.  Expecting snow somewhere around noon -- fortunately only about an inch (YAAAAY).  Looks like you're getting a good idea of this cycle process.  Yes, I MAY say for you to add just 1 teaspoon of the ammonia today, to bring the level up to 3.0 ppm, but since you made the previous tests only 12 hours ago -- at 9:30 PM, ideally we need to wait 24 hours to see how much more ammonia will be consumed.  If you want to do this work at a more convenient time for yourself (rather than late in the evening), set a time that's good and stick to it.  Let me know what time that will be.  We can then plan on how much more ammonia to add for this day (only).  Right now, add no more than 1/8 teaspoon of Baking Soda (Sodium Bicarbonate) if you have it, and do a KH test after allowing 20 minutes to elapse; post it here when you get it.  Might need a bit more (I'm thinking like perhaps 1/4 teaspoon total, but we don't want to add too much all at once). 
       
      On the 10 gallon, YES, do a 75% PWC on this tank today, and of course add Prime.  The 75% sounds a lot, but we want to keep the ammonia at an absolute minimum, not having a cycle in place.  We'll see what tomorrow brings on this tank.  Might possibly need to do another PWC, and possible larger, but this remains to be seen.  I'd suggest doing a 90% PWC today if I thought the 15% difference would make a noticeable disparity in the ammonia level by tomorrow, but I don't believe it should.  Some hobbyists' water is of a quality that doesn't allow for doing large PWC's without stressing their fish.  When I first took into account all of your tap water parameters, it was obvious to me that your water would be fine for doing larger PWC's; I wouldn't have suggested this procedure otherwise.  THIS would be a situation where the Purigen you asked about would help (although not an absolute necessity).  This product could help keep the ammonia down as we wait for the 55 to cycle, if it can be found easily.
       
      Getting right to your question on Purigen's use for the 55, perhaps you don't know what it does.  It will remove the ammonia in your tank, and at the same time completely starve out the nitrifying bacteria, preventing a cycle.  This is why I said not to use it, but not because it's a bad product for its purpose.  You just don't want to use it in the 55. 
       
      .
      Ray
       
      In a message dated 1/6/2015 9:21:59 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Good morning!!! How are you? Thought I'd send my test results early
      today. It's cold and SNOWY
      here today, brrrrrrr!! Great day to curl up and try to keep warm. I'm
      thinking with the 55 gal numbers where they are, you'll have me add
      ammonia.....let's see would it be 1 tsp??
      55 Gal.
      Ph 7.6, HPh 7.4, ammonia 2, Nitrite 5, Nitrate pp 40, KH 3

      10 a Gal
      Ph 7.6, HPh 8.2, ammonia .25, Nitrite 0, Nitrate 5, GH 8, KH 6
      I added Prime this morning just to be safe. With ammonia now present,
      would you have me do PWC or wait
      Until it's a little higher?
      Peg
      peg@...
      Soon Opening: Hoopin' It Up Designs
      Custom Embroidery & Embellishmentsh

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56393 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/6/2015
      Subject: Re: Numbers for 55 Gal 1/5/15
      AOL Email
      Yeah, things can really get mixed up between posting a message and receiving it at the other end.  Impossible to figure how it happens.  I didn't think you intentionally typed that, but I didn't know if you wrote anything else in its place.  If you think that was crazy, just take a look at what happened to your same message just below our two previous messages here -- in place of "mnvccc x" it's now "mA+v ccAt" or something similar (I don't have all the symbols to write it as it appears.  Makes ya wonder how this happens.
       
      Anyway, now I know why you posted the numbers last night.  Yup, got both tests; I presume you got my reply by now.  We now need to stay to a certain time of day to test the water as the bacteria need a 24 hour period in which to more accurately judge how much organic wastes they're converting.  Set a certain time of day for yourself, and do the testing then, with posting the results here and I'll comment on any ammonia additions that might be needed at that time.  Don't add any ammonia yet until I get back to you on the tests you'll be taking.  As before, take other tests after 20 minutes of adding any more ammonia -- and again post these.  This needs to be done for today (and going forward).  For today, you can pick any time and you can use that from now on.
       
      Later,
       
      Ray
         
       
      In a message dated 1/6/2015 12:05:09 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      I have no idea what language it is that came thru in that message. Crazy huh? Considering everything goes thru a cloud in who knows where, back thru another cloud on the sunny side of China,  around the world in 80 days and then thru Yahoo to the groups posting page to you, it's amazing any of it is understandable! Good grief!!

      I usually test first thing in the morning but tested last night because I knew you'd be looking for the numbers. I sent the numbers for both tanks, did you get these?

      Sent from my iPhone

      On Jan 6, 2015, at 9:16 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Okay, thanks.  Please include the message you're replying to though, to make it a little easier to follow.  These numbers are fairly good, but we'll need to keep a closer eye on the nitrite and KH.  Don't want the nitrite to rise too much nor the KH to drop too much.  Today's readings should tell us more.  Please post them at the usual time of day you'll be testing them before adding any more ammonia -- and DON'T add any more ammonia yet until I have a chance to see these newest numbers.  Also, what time of day HAVE you set for doing this work, just so I know when to check back?  Would it usually be around the 9:30 PM you tested it last night?
       
      BTW, you'll notice here that some of your message came through as "mnvccc x"  and also, it just says "wait (blank) min."  I know you said you waited 20 minutes (I don't know why there's a blank space), but did the part -- "mnvccc x" just get scrambled up in cyberspace?  I have no idea what it means.
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/6/2015 4:46:37 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      No, these were taken Monday night around 930 pm.

      I rec'd your email about adding 3 tsp around 1250 pm. You said that I should add the ammonia  mñv ccć x  then wait  min for ammonia to circulate then take ammonia reading. I did exactly as you asked, then tested only ammonia and sent that number by itself.

      Later you asked that I test the 10 gal and the 55 and send the results. These are the results for the 55 gal. 

      Peg
      Soon Opening: Hoopin' It Up Designs
                                Custom Embroidery & Embellishments

      On Jan 6, 2015, at 1:59 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      As your message contains no other message beneath this for reference, I'm not sure what they represent.  Are these numbers the test results immediately after your adding more ammonia? 
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/5/2015 9:33:16 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Ph 7.6, HPh 8.0, Ammonia 4, Nitrite 5, Nitrate 40, KH 4

      Peg
      peg@...
      Soon Opening: Hoopin' It Up Designs
      Custom Embroidery & Embellishments

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56394 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/6/2015
      Subject: Re: Numbers for 55 Gal snd 10 Gal 1/6/15
      AOL Email
      Okay, I had forgotten about that.  Initially, I was trying to avoid raising the GH (and the pH) while raising the KH.  You can do a PWC of course, which will restore part of the KH, but there's no need right now to go through that.  Yes, baking soda acts similarly to Seachem's Malawi/Victoria buffer and they'll both raise the pH up to 8.3 -- 8.4 when enough is used to go that high.  As Seachem's buffer is directed to use 1 teaspoonful per 10 -- 20 gallons, that's a fairly wide spread to try to get an accurate handle on.  Once we know how much to use in your conditions (and everyone's water conditions are different), we have it made.  It's getting to know much to use in the first place that's tricky; it's experimental until then.  This buffer shouldn't raise the GH by very much, but I'm not sure if it would increase the pH an higher than your 8.2 level. 
       
      My concern with the pH is that the Nitrobacters do best at between pH 7.3 and 7.5, with an overall range of from 6.7 - 6.8 to 8.2 - 8.3; some reports indicate their prime range may be as high as pH 7.9 but that's not universally agreed upon and the higher we go, the more we're moving out of their best range.  On the other hand, Nitrosomonas' optimum range is between 7.8 and 8.0 and will still grow fairly well up until pH 8.5; they're of less concern.  To decrease the time in which the cycle completes, raise the temperature a bit -- at least up to 80 o.  You'll need to remember to turn it back down to where it is now (77 o -- 78 o ?) before making the final large PWC and adding the fish when that time comes. 
       
      We could try using Seachem's buffer at it's least influential rate of the 1 teaspoon per 20 gallons -- and start it at just ONE Teaspoon for the 55 gallons so as not to add more than we need.  First, as I see you generally do your tests in the morning, let's go with that and add the 1 teaspoon of ammonia right now.  Give the test results for the ammonia after 20 minutes.  You may add the buffer at this same time and give the KH and pH results too, after 20 minutes.  Before adding the Seachem buffer, dissolve it in a cup of warm water.  I'll check back here in a while.
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/6/2015 12:06:06 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Before I add the baking soda I wanted to let you know that I have Seachem Malawai Victoria buffer on hand. I've been using it on my frog tank. 
      I dint know if the baking soda does the same thing as the buffer but the baking soda had been discussed and then Suzy went with the buffer. Just letting you know before 
      I put the baking soda in. 

      I usually do all testing in the Am. Before 930 most days but sometimes I'm gone and then I gotta do them as time allows. 
      Sent from my iPhone

      On Jan 6, 2015, at 10:01 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Good Morning Peg,
       
      PLEASE include the message you're replying to, to make things easier to follow.  Doing well, thanks; temperature here right now is 18 o.  Expecting snow somewhere around noon -- fortunately only about an inch (YAAAAY).  Looks like you're getting a good idea of this cycle process.  Yes, I MAY say for you to add just 1 teaspoon of the ammonia today, to bring the level up to 3.0 ppm, but since you made the previous tests only 12 hours ago -- at 9:30 PM, ideally we need to wait 24 hours to see how much more ammonia will be consumed.  If you want to do this work at a more convenient time for yourself (rather than late in the evening), set a time that's good and stick to it.  Let me know what time that will be.  We can then plan on how much more ammonia to add for this day (only).  Right now, add no more than 1/8 teaspoon of Baking Soda (Sodium Bicarbonate) if you have it, and do a KH test after allowing 20 minutes to elapse; post it here when you get it.  Might need a bit more (I'm thinking like perhaps 1/4 teaspoon total, but we don't want to add too much all at once). 
       
      On the 10 gallon, YES, do a 75% PWC on this tank today, and of course add Prime.  The 75% sounds a lot, but we want to keep the ammonia at an absolute minimum, not having a cycle in place.  We'll see what tomorrow brings on this tank.  Might possibly need to do another PWC, and possible larger, but this remains to be seen.  I'd suggest doing a 90% PWC today if I thought the 15% difference would make a noticeable disparity in the ammonia level by tomorrow, but I don't believe it should.  Some hobbyists' water is of a quality that doesn't allow for doing large PWC's without stressing their fish.  When I first took into account all of your tap water parameters, it was obvious to me that your water would be fine for doing larger PWC's; I wouldn't have suggested this procedure otherwise.  THIS would be a situation where the Purigen you asked about would help (although not an absolute necessity).  This product could help keep the ammonia down as we wait for the 55 to cycle, if it can be found easily.
       
      Getting right to your question on Purigen's use for the 55, perhaps you don't know what it does.  It will remove the ammonia in your tank, and at the same time completely starve out the nitrifying bacteria, preventing a cycle.  This is why I said not to use it, but not because it's a bad product for its purpose.  You just don't want to use it in the 55. 
       
      .
      Ray
       
      In a message dated 1/6/2015 9:21:59 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Good morning!!! How are you? Thought I'd send my test results early
      today. It's cold and SNOWY
      here today, brrrrrrr!! Great day to curl up and try to keep warm. I'm
      thinking with the 55 gal numbers where they are, you'll have me add
      ammonia.....let's see would it be 1 tsp??
      55 Gal.
      Ph 7.6, HPh 7.4, ammonia 2, Nitrite 5, Nitrate pp 40, KH 3

      10 a Gal
      Ph 7.6, HPh 8.2, ammonia .25, Nitrite 0, Nitrate 5, GH 8, KH 6
      I added Prime this morning just to be safe. With ammonia now present,
      would you have me do PWC or wait
      Until it's a little higher?
      Peg
      peg@...
      Soon Opening: Hoopin' It Up Designs
      Custom Embroidery & Embellishmentsh

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56395 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 1/6/2015
      Subject: Re: Numbers for 55 Gal 1/5/15
      I have no idea what's up with that text string.its hard to tell. One other thing that's going I with this thread is that every time  it comes back to me it had been reduced. Its so small now that it just looks like a line...we probably need to create a new email.

      I usually do all testing in the morning between 9-11 but there are those days when I can't be here or I'm not feeling good enough to get up and do things.  Anyhow I will do my best to post my numbers by 11 am every day. I apologize. I didn't mean to cause you to extra work just to get my numbers. I know YOU are  trying to help ME so the last thing I want to do cause you extra work. 



       




      Peg
      Soon Opening: Hoopin' It Up Designs
                                Custom Embroidery & Embellishments

      On Jan 6, 2015, at 9:16 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Okay, thanks.  Please include the message you're replying to though, to make it a little easier to follow.  These numbers are fairly good, but we'll need to keep a closer eye on the nitrite and KH.  Don't want thmuhh..h..h.............. back?  Would it usually be around the 9:30 PM you tested it last night?
       
      BTW, you'll notice here that some of your message came through as "mnvccc x"  and also, it just says "wait (blank) min."  I know you said you waited 20 minutes (I don't know why there's a blank space), but did the part -- "mnvccc x" just get scrambled up in cyberspace?  I have no idea what it means.
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/6/2015 4:46:37 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      No, these were taken Monday night around 930 pm.

      I rec'd your email about adding 3 tsp around 1250 pm. You said that I should add the ammonia  mñv ccć x  then wait  min for ammonia to circulate then take ammonia reading. I did exactly as you asked, then tested only ammonia and sent that number by itself.

      Later you asked that I test the 10 gal and the 55 and send the results. These are the results for the 55 gal. 

      Peg
      Soon Opening: Hoopin' It Up Designs
                                Custom Embroidery & Embellishments

      On Jan 6, 2015, at 1:59 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      As your message contains no other message beneath this for reference, I'm not sure what they represent.  Are these numbers the test results immediately after your adding more ammonia? 
       L
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/5/2015 9:33:16 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Ph 7.6, HPh 8.0, Ammonia 4, Nitrite 5, Nitrate 40, KH 4

      Peg
      peg@...
      Soon Opening: Hoopin' It Up Designs
      Custom Embroidery & Embellishments

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56396 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/6/2015
      Subject: Re: Numbers for 55 Gal 1/5/15
      AOL Email
      To be able to still follow each other's steps, we'll still need to keep the last replies, but I agree will need to trim all extraneous matter below that.  Should have done that already for those receiving their email in digest mode.
       
      As for extra work, don't sweat the small stuff, I enjoy a challenge < g >. 
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/6/2015 2:15:46 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      I have no idea what's up with that text string.its hard to tell. One other thing that's going I with this thread is that every time  it comes back to me it had been reduced. Its so small now that it just looks like a line...we probably need to create a new email.

      I usually do all testing in the morning between 9-11 but there are those days when I can't be here or I'm not feeling good enough to get up and do things.  Anyhow I will do my best to post my numbers by 11 am every day. I apologize. I didn't mean to cause you to extra work just to get my numbers. I know YOU are  trying to help ME so the last thing I want to do cause you extra work. 



       




      Peg
      Soon Opening: Hoopin' It Up Designs
                                Custom Embroidery & Embellishments

      On Jan 6, 2015, at 9:16 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Okay, thanks.  Please include the message you're replying to though, to make it a little easier to follow.  These numbers are fairly good, but we'll need to keep a closer eye on the nitrite and KH.  Don't want thmuhh..h..h.............. back?  Would it usually be around the 9:30 PM you tested it last night?
       
      BTW, you'll notice here that some of your message came through as "mnvccc x"  and also, it just says "wait (blank) min."  I know you said you waited 20 minutes (I don't know why there's a blank space), but did the part -- "mnvccc x" just get scrambled up in cyberspace?  I have no idea what it means.
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/6/2015 4:46:37 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      No, these were taken Monday night around 930 pm.

      I rec'd your email about adding 3 tsp around 1250 pm. You said that I should add the ammonia  mñv ccć x  then wait  min for ammonia to circulate then take ammonia reading. I did exactly as you asked, then tested only ammonia and sent that number by itself.

      Later you asked that I test the 10 gal and the 55 and send the results. These are the results for the 55 gal. 

      Peg
      Soon Opening: Hoopin' It Up Designs
                                Custom Embroidery & Embellishments

      On Jan 6, 2015, at 1:59 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      As your message contains no other message beneath this for reference, I'm not sure what they represent.  Are these numbers the test results immediately after your adding more ammonia? 
       L
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/5/2015 9:33:16 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Ph 7.6, HPh 8.0, Ammonia 4, Nitrite 5, Nitrate 40, KH 4

      Peg
      peg@...
      Soon Opening: Hoopin' It Up Designs
      Custom Embroidery & Embellishments

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56397 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 1/6/2015
      Subject: Re: Numbers for 55 Gal snd 10 Gal 1/6/15
      I wanted to let you know that I have on hand a jar of Malawi/Victoria buffer. Suzy has me using it on my frog tank trying to raise the KH.  We had talked about using baking soda but after talking to you she asked me to get the buffer powder. You may still want me to use the baking soda but I wanted to let you know just in case.  I will wait to hear back from you on the baking soda.

      I had asked about the Purigen because I read a review for it  and the people in the group were all talking about how crystal clear it made their water. I didn't know anything about the removal of ammonia. I can order some via Amazon if you want me to have on hand. 

       Peg
      Soon Opening: Hoopin' It Up Designs
                                Custom Embroidery & Embellis

      On Jan 6, 2015, at 10:01 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Good Morning Peg,
       
      PLEASE include the message you're replying to, to make things easier to follow.  Doing well, thanks; temperature here right now is 18 o.  Expecting snow somewhere around noon -- fortunately only about an inch (YAAAAY).  Looks like you're getting a good idea of this cycle process.  Yes, I MAY say for you to add just 1 teaspoon of the ammonia today, to bring the level up to 3.0 ppm, but since you made the previous tests only 12 hours ago -- at 9:30 PM, ideally we need to wait 24 hours to see how much more ammonia will be consumed.  If you want to do this work at a more convenient time for yourself (rather than late in the evening), set a time that's good and stick to it.  Let me know what time that will be.  We can then plan on how much more ammonia to add for this day (only).  Right now, add no more than 1/8 teaspoon of Baking Sn
      Pm oda (Sodium Bicarbonate) if you have it, and do a KH test after allowing 20 minutes to elapse; post it here when you get it.  Might need a bit more (I'm thinking like perhaps 1/4 teaspoon total, but we don't want to add too much all at once). 
      On the 10 gallon, YES, do a 75% PWC on this tank today, and of course add Prime.  The 75% sounds a lot, but we want to keep the ammonia at an absolute minimum, not having a cycle in place.  We'll see what tomorrow brings on this tank.  Might possibly need to do another PWC, and possible larger, but this remains to be seen.  I'd suggest doing a 90% PWC today about  I thought the 15% difference would make a noticeable disparity in the ammonia level by tomorrow, but I don't believe it should.  Some hobbyists' water is of a quality that doesn't allow for doing large PWC's without stressing their fish.  When I first took into account all of your tap water parameters, it was obvious to me that your water would be fine for doing larger PWC's; I wouldn't have suggested this procedure otherwise.  THIS would be a situation where the Purigen you asked about would help (although not an absolute necessity).  This product could help keep the ammonia down as we wait for the 55 to cycle, if it can be found easily.
       
      Getting right to your question on Purigen's use for the 55, perhaps you don't know what it does.  It will remove the ammonia in your tank, and at the same time completely starve out the nitrifying bacteria, preventing a cycle.  This is why I said not to use it, but not because it's a bad product for its purpose.  You just don't want to use it in the 55. 
       
      .
      Ray
       
      In a message dated 1/6/2015 9:21:59 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Good morning!!! How are you? Thought I'd send my test results early
      today. It's cold and SNOWY
      here today, brrrrrrr!! Great day to curl up and try to keep warm. I'm
      thinking with the 55 gal numbers where they are, you'll have me add
      ammonia.....let's see would it be 1 tsp??
      55 Gal.
      Ph 7.6, HPh 7.4, ammonia 2, Nitrite 5, Nitrate pp 40, KH 3

      10 a Gal
      Ph 7.6, HPh 8.2, ammonia .25, Nitrite 0, Nitrate 5, GH 8, KH 6
      I added Prime this morning just to be safe. With ammonia now present,
      would you have me do PWC or wait
      Until it's a little higher?
      Peg
      peg@...
      Soon Opening: Hoopin' It Up Designs
      Custom Embroidery & Embellishmentsh

      Posted by: Sevenspringss1@...

      Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (2)
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      .

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56398 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 1/6/2015
      Subject: Re: Numbers for 55 Gal 1/5/15
      Now the tests you want me to do 20 min after adding ammonia...is that only the ammonia test or do you want me to run all of the tests? 

      Peg

      On Jan 6, 2015, at 1:31 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Yeah, things can really get mixed up between posting a message and receiving it at the other end.  Impossible to figure how it happens.  I didn't think you intentionally typed that, but I didn't know if you wrote anything else in its place.  If you think that was crazy, just take a look at what happened to your same message just below our two previous messages here -- in place of "mnvccc x" it's now "mA+v ccAt" or something similar (I don't have all the symbols to write it as it ))))))))))))))))))))))7777777777)appears.  Makes ya wonder how this happens.
       
      Anyway, now I know why you posted the numbers last night.  Yup, got both tests; I presume you got my reply by now.  We now need to stay to a certain time of day to test the water as the bacteria need a 24 hour period in which to more accurately judge how much organic wastes they're converting.  Set a certain time of day for yourself, and do the testing then, with posting the results here and I'll comment on any ammonia additions that might be needed at that time.  Don't add any ammonia yet until I get back to you on the tests you'll be taking.  As before, take other tests after 20 minutes of adding any more ammonia -- and again post these.  This needs to be done for today (and going forward).  For today, you can pick any time and you can use that from now on.
       
      Later,
       
      Ray
         
       
      In a message dated 1/6/2015 12:05:09 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      I have no idea what language it is that came thru in that message. Crazy huh? Considering everything goes thru a cloud in who knows where, back thru another cloud on the sunny side of China,  around the world in 80 days and then thru Yahoo to the groups posting page to you, it's amazing any of it is understandable! Good grief!!

      I usually test first thing in the morning but tested last night because I knew you'd be looking for the numbers. I sent the numbers for both tanks, did you get these?

      Sent from my iPhone

      On Jan 6, 2015, at 9:16 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Okay, thanks.  Please include the message you're replying to though, to make it a little easier to follow.  These numbers are fairly good, but we'll need to keep a closer eye on the nitrite and KH.  Don't want the nitrite to rise too much nor the KH to drop too much.  Today's readings should tell us more.  Please post them at the usual time of day you'll be testing them before adding any more ammonia -- and DON'T add any more ammonia yet until I have a chance to see these newest numbers.  Also, what time of day HAVE you set for doing this work, just so I know when to check back?  Would it usually be around the 9:30 PM you tested it last night?
       
      BTW, you'll notice here that some of your message came through as "mnvccc x"  and also, it just says "wait (blank) min."  I know you said you waited 20 minutes (I don't know why there's a blank space), but did the part -- "mnvccc x" just get scrambled up in cyberspace?  I have no idea what it means.
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/6/2015 4:46:37 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      No, these were taken Monday night around 930 pm.

      I rec'd your email about adding 3 tsp around 1250 pm. You said that I should add the ammonia  mñv ccć x  then wait  min for ammonia to circulate then take ammonia reading. I did exactly as you asked, then tested only ammonia and sent that number by itself.

      Later you asked that I test the 10 gal and the 55 and send the results. These are the results for the 55 gal. 

      Peg
      Soon Opening: Hoopin' It Up Designs
                                Custom Embroidery & Embellishments

      On Jan 6, 2015, at 1:59 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      As your message contains no other message beneath this for reference, I'm not sure what they represent.  Are these numbers the test results immediately after your adding more ammonia? 
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/5/2015 9:33:16 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Ph 7.6, HPh 8.0, Ammonia 4, Nitrite 5, Nitrate 40, KH 4

      Peg
      peg@...
      Soon Opening: Hoopin' It Up Designs
      Custom Embroidery & Embellishments

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56399 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/6/2015
      Subject: Re: Numbers for 55 Gal snd 10 Gal 1/6/15
      AOL Email
      I think this is a repeat, which I responded to, but go ahead an get a small thing of Purigen for the 10 gallon in case it's needed.  Always good to have on hand anyway, in case your power goes out and the ammonia starts to rise.  Put it in with your next order; don't pay extra shipping charges just on this.
       
      Ray
       
      In a message dated 1/6/2015 2:48:43 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      I wanted to let you know that I have on hand a jar of Malawi/Victoria buffer. Suzy has me using it on my frog tank trying to raise the KH.  We had talked about using baking soda but after talking to you she asked me to get the buffer powder. You may still want me to use the baking soda but I wanted to let you know just in case.  I will wait to hear back from you on the baking soda.

      I had asked about the Purigen because I read a review for it  and the people in the group were all talking about how crystal clear it made their water. I didn't know anything about the removal of ammonia. I can order some via Amazon if you want me to have on hand. 

       Peg
      Soon Opening: Hoopin' It Up Designs
                                Custom Embroidery & Embellis

      On Jan 6, 2015, at 10:01 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Good Morning Peg,
       
      PLEASE include the message you're replying to, to make things easier to follow.  Doing well, thanks; temperature here right now is 18 o.  Expecting snow somewhere around noon -- fortunately only about an inch (YAAAAY).  Looks like you're getting a good idea of this cycle process.  Yes, I MAY say for you to add just 1 teaspoon of the ammonia today, to bring the level up to 3.0 ppm, but since you made the previous tests only 12 hours ago -- at 9:30 PM, ideally we need to wait 24 hours to see how much more ammonia will be consumed.  If you want to do this work at a more convenient time for yourself (rather than late in the evening), set a time that's good and stick to it.  Let me know what time that will be.  We can then plan on how much more ammonia to add for this day (only).  Right now, add no more than 1/8 teaspoon of Baking Sn
      Pm oda (Sodium Bicarbonate) if you have it, and do a KH test after allowing 20 minutes to elapse; post it here when you get it.  Might need a bit more (I'm thinking like perhaps 1/4 teaspoon total, but we don't want to add too much all at once). 
      On the 10 gallon, YES, do a 75% PWC on this tank today, and of course add Prime.  The 75% sounds a lot, but we want to keep the ammonia at an absolute minimum, not having a cycle in place.  We'll see what tomorrow brings on this tank.  Might possibly need to do another PWC, and possible larger, but this remains to be seen.  I'd suggest doing a 90% PWC today about  I thought the 15% difference would make a noticeable disparity in the ammonia level by tomorrow, but I don't believe it should.  Some hobbyists' water is of a quality that doesn't allow for doing large PWC's without stressing their fish.  When I first took into account all of your tap water parameters, it was obvious to me that your water would be fine for doing larger PWC's; I wouldn't have suggested this procedure otherwise.  THIS would be a situation where the Purigen you asked about would help (although not an absolute necessity).  This product could help keep the ammonia down as we wait for the 55 to cycle, if it can be found easily.
       
      Getting right to your question on Purigen's use for the 55, perhaps you don't know what it does.  It will remove the ammonia in your tank, and at the same time completely starve out the nitrifying bacteria, preventing a cycle.  This is why I said not to use it, but not because it's a bad product for its purpose.  You just don't want to use it in the 55. 
       
      .
      Ray
       
      In a message dated 1/6/2015 9:21:59 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Good morning!!! How are you? Thought I'd send my test results early
      today. It's cold and SNOWY
      here today, brrrrrrr!! Great day to curl up and try to keep warm. I'm
      thinking with the 55 gal numbers where they are, you'll have me add
      ammonia.....let's see would it be 1 tsp??
      55 Gal.
      Ph 7.6, HPh 7.4, ammonia 2, Nitrite 5, Nitrate pp 40, KH 3

      10 a Gal
      Ph 7.6, HPh 8.2, ammonia .25, Nitrite 0, Nitrate 5, GH 8, KH 6
      I added Prime this morning just to be safe. With ammonia now present,
      would you have me do PWC or wait
      Until it's a little higher?
      Peg
      peg@...
      Soon Opening: Hoopin' It Up Designs
      Custom Embroidery & Embellishmentsh

      Posted by: Sevenspringss1@...

      Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (2)
      AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s

      Join us on our Facebook page...https://www.facebook.com/AquaticLifeGroup

      Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You.
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      PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -&gt; i.e. &quot;new subject (was re: old subject)&quot; &lt;-
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      We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter.

      If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on &quot;Edit My Membership&quot; on the home page. 

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      .

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56400 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/6/2015
      Subject: Re: Numbers for 55 Gal 1/5/15
      AOL Email
      Just test the ammonia value after adding the one teaspoon of the bottled ammonia, and the KH and PH after adding the buffer -- all after about 20 minutes.
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/6/2015 2:49:27 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Now the tests you want me to do 20 min after adding ammonia...is that only the ammonia test or do you want me to run all of the tests? 

      Peg


       

       
       


       


       
       

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56401 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 1/6/2015
      Subject: Re: Updsted test result numbers 55 Gal snd 10 Gal 1/6/15
      This is rely for adding  1 tsp buffer and 1 tsp Ammonia 

      After 20 min time lapse 

      Ph 7.6,  Hph 8.2, Ammonia 2, KH 5


      Sent from my iPhone

      On Jan 6, 2015, at 2:14 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Okay, I had forgotten about that.  Initially, I was trying to avoid raising the GH (and the pH) while raising the KH.  You can do a PWC of course, which will restore part of the KH, but there's no need right now to go through that.  Yes, baking soda acts similarly to Seachem's Malawi/Victoria buffer and they'll both raise the pH up to 8.3 -- 8.4 when enough is used to go that high.  As Seachem's buffer is directed to use 1 teaspoonful per 10 -- 20 gallons, that's a fairly wide spread to try to get an accurate handle on.  Once we know how much to use in your conditions (and everyone's water conditions are different), we have it made.  It's getting to know much to use in the first place that's tricky; it's experimental until then.  This buffer shouldn't raise the GH by very much, but I'm not sure if it would increase the pH an higher than your 8.2 level. 
       
      My concern with the pH is that the Nitrobacters do best at between pH 7.3 and 7.5, with an overall range of from 6.7 - 6.8 to 8.2 - 8.3; some reports indicate their prime range may be as high as pH 7.9 but that's not universally agreed upon and the higher we go, the more we're moving out of their best range.  On the other hand, Nitrosomonas' optimum range is between 7.8 and 8.0 and will still grow fairly well up until pH 8.5; they're of less concern.  To decrease the time in which the cycle completes, raise the temperature a bit -- at least up to 80 o.  You'll need to remember to turn it back down to where it is now (77 o -- 78 o ?) before making the final large PWC and adding the fish when that time comes. 
       
      We could try using Seachem's buffer at it's least influential rate of the 1 teaspoon per 20 gallons -- and start it at just ONE Teaspoon for the 55 gallons so as not to add more than we need.  First, as I see you generally do your tests in the morning, let's go with that and add the 1 teaspoon of ammonia right now.  Give the test results for the ammonia after 20 minutes.  You may add the buffer at this same time and give the KH and pH results too, after 20 minutes.  Before adding the Seachem buffer, dissolve it in a cup of warm water.  I'll check back here in a while.
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/6/2015 12:06:06 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Before I add the baking soda I wanted to let you know that I have Seachem Malawai Victoria buffer on hand. I've been using it on my frog tank. 
      I dint know if the baking soda does the same thing as the buffer but the baking soda had been discussed and then Suzy went with the buffer. Just letting you know before 
      I put the baking soda in. 

      I usually do all testing in the Am. Before 930 most days but sometimes I'm gone and then I gotta do them as time allows. 
      Sent from my iPhone

      On Jan 6, 2015, at 10:01 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Good Morning Peg,
       
      PLEASE include the message you're replying to, to make things easier to follow.  Doing well, thanks; temperature here right now is 18 o.  Expecting snow somewhere around noon -- fortunately only about an inch (YAAAAY).  Looks like you're getting a good idea of this cycle process.  Yes, I MAY say for you to add just 1 teaspoon of the ammonia today, to bring the level up to 3.0 ppm, but since you made the previous tests only 12 hours ago -- at 9:30 PM, ideally we need to wait 24 hours to see how much more ammonia will be consumed.  If you want to do this work at a more convenient time for yourself (rather than late in the evening), set a time that's good and stick to it.  Let me know what time that will be.  We can then plan on how much more ammonia to add for this day (only).  Right now, add no more than 1/8 teaspoon of Baking Soda (Sodium Bicarbonate) if you have it, and do a KH test after allowing 20 minutes to elapse; post it here when you get it.  Might need a bit more (I'm thinking like perhaps 1/4 teaspoon total, but we don't want to add too much all at once). 
       
      On the 10 gallon, YES, do a 75% PWC on this tank today, and of course add Prime.  The 75% sounds a lot, but we want to keep the ammonia at an absolute minimum, not having a cycle in place.  We'll see what tomorrow brings on this tank.  Might possibly need to do another PWC, and possible larger, but this remains to be seen.  I'd suggest doing a 90% PWC today if I thought the 15% difference would make a noticeable disparity in the ammonia level by tomorrow, but I don't believe it should.  Some hobbyists' water is of a quality that doesn't allow for doing large PWC's without stressing their fish.  When I first took into account all of your tap water parameters, it was obvious to me that your water would be fine for doing larger PWC's; I wouldn't have suggested this procedure otherwise.  THIS would be a situation where the Purigen you asked about would help (although not an absolute necessity).  This product could help keep the ammonia down as we wait for the 55 to cycle, if it can be found easily.
       
      Getting right to your question on Purigen's use for the 55, perhaps you don't know what it does.  It will remove the ammonia in your tank, and at the same time completely starve out the nitrifying bacteria, preventing a cycle.  This is why I said not to use it, but not because it's a bad product for its purpose.  You just don't want to use it in the 55. 
       
      .
      Ray
       
      In a message dated 1/6/2015 9:21:59 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Good morning!!! How are you? Thought I'd send my test results early
      today. It's cold and SNOWY
      here today, brrrrrrr!! Great day to curl up and try to keep warm. I'm
      thinking with the 55 gal numbers where they are, you'll have me add
      ammonia.....let's see would it be 1 tsp??
      55 Gal.
      Ph 7.6, HPh 7.4, ammonia 2, Nitrite 5, Nitrate pp 40, KH 3

      10 a Gal
      Ph 7.6, HPh 8.2, ammonia .25, Nitrite 0, Nitrate 5, GH 8, KH 6
      I added Prime this morning just to be safe. With ammonia now present,
      would you have me do PWC or wait
      Until it's a little higher?
      Peg
      peg@...
      Soon Opening: Hoopin' It Up Designs
      Custom Embroidery & Embellishmentsh

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56402 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 1/6/2015
      Subject: Re: Numbers for 55 Gal 1/5/15
      Already tested and sent to you 

      Sent from my iPhone

      On Jan 6, 2015, at 3:02 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Just test the ammonia value after adding the one teaspoon of the bottled ammonia, and the KH and PH after adding the buffer -- all after about 20 minutes.
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/6/2015 2:49:27 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Now the tests you want me to do 20 min after adding ammonia...is that only the ammonia test or do you want me to run all of the tests? 

      Peg


       

       
       


       


       
       

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56403 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/6/2015
      Subject: Re: Numbers for 55 Gal 1/5/15
      AOL Email
      Got It.
       
      In a message dated 1/6/2015 4:56:51 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Already tested and sent to you 

      Sent from my iPhone

      On Jan 6, 2015, at 3:02 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Just test the ammonia value after adding the one teaspoon of the bottled ammonia, and the KH and PH after adding the buffer -- all after about 20 minutes.
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/6/2015 2:49:27 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Now the tests you want me to do 20 min after adding ammonia...is that only the ammonia test or do you want me to run all of the tests? 

      Peg


       

       
       


       


       
       

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56404 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/6/2015
      Subject: Re: Updsted test result numbers 55 Gal snd 10 Gal 1/6/15
      AOL Email
      Alright -- add 1 more teaspoon of ammonia and one more teaspoon of buffer, then check both again after 20 minutes.  Should be alright.  I figured on 2 total teaspoons of buffer but I didn't want to go too quickly.  This time, check the nitrite too.  Might be higher than 2.0, but should drop down a bit by tomorrow. 
       
      Ray
       
      In a message dated 1/6/2015 4:55:59 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      This is rely for adding  1 tsp buffer and 1 tsp Ammonia 

      After 20 min time lapse 

      Ph 7.6,  Hph 8.2, Ammonia 2, KH 5


      Sent from my iPhone

      On Jan 6, 2015, at 2:14 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Okay, I had forgotten about that.  Initially, I was trying to avoid raising the GH (and the pH) while raising the KH.  You can do a PWC of course, which will restore part of the KH, but there's no need right now to go through that.  Yes, baking soda acts similarly to Seachem's Malawi/Victoria buffer and they'll both raise the pH up to 8.3 -- 8.4 when enough is used to go that high.  As Seachem's buffer is directed to use 1 teaspoonful per 10 -- 20 gallons, that's a fairly wide spread to try to get an accurate handle on.  Once we know how much to use in your conditions (and everyone's water conditions are different), we have it made.  It's getting to know much to use in the first place that's tricky; it's experimental until then.  This buffer shouldn't raise the GH by very much, but I'm not sure if it would increase the pH an higher than your 8.2 level. 
       
      My concern with the pH is that the Nitrobacters do best at between pH 7.3 and 7.5, with an overall range of from 6.7 - 6.8 to 8.2 - 8.3; some reports indicate their prime range may be as high as pH 7.9 but that's not universally agreed upon and the higher we go, the more we're moving out of their best range.  On the other hand, Nitrosomonas' optimum range is between 7.8 and 8.0 and will still grow fairly well up until pH 8.5; they're of less concern.  To decrease the time in which the cycle completes, raise the temperature a bit -- at least up to 80 o.  You'll need to remember to turn it back down to where it is now (77 o -- 78 o ?) before making the final large PWC and adding the fish when that time comes. 
       
      We could try using Seachem's buffer at it's least influential rate of the 1 teaspoon per 20 gallons -- and start it at just ONE Teaspoon for the 55 gallons so as not to add more than we need.  First, as I see you generally do your tests in the morning, let's go with that and add the 1 teaspoon of ammonia right now.  Give the test results for the ammonia after 20 minutes.  You may add the buffer at this same time and give the KH and pH results too, after 20 minutes.  Before adding the Seachem buffer, dissolve it in a cup of warm water.  I'll check back here in a while.
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/6/2015 12:06:06 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Before I add the baking soda I wanted to let you know that I have Seachem Malawai Victoria buffer on hand. I've been using it on my frog tank. 
      I dint know if the baking soda does the same thing as the buffer but the baking soda had been discussed and then Suzy went with the buffer. Just letting you know before 
      I put the baking soda in. 

      I usually do all testing in the Am. Before 930 most days but sometimes I'm gone and then I gotta do them as time allows. 
      Sent from my iPhone

      On Jan 6, 2015, at 10:01 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Good Morning Peg,
       
      PLEASE include the message you're replying to, to make things easier to follow.  Doing well, thanks; temperature here right now is 18 o.  Expecting snow somewhere around noon -- fortunately only about an inch (YAAAAY).  Looks like you're getting a good idea of this cycle process.  Yes, I MAY say for you to add just 1 teaspoon of the ammonia today, to bring the level up to 3.0 ppm, but since you made the previous tests only 12 hours ago -- at 9:30 PM, ideally we need to wait 24 hours to see how much more ammonia will be consumed.  If you want to do this work at a more convenient time for yourself (rather than late in the evening), set a time that's good and stick to it.  Let me know what time that will be.  We can then plan on how much more ammonia to add for this day (only).  Right now, add no more than 1/8 teaspoon of Baking Soda (Sodium Bicarbonate) if you have it, and do a KH test after allowing 20 minutes to elapse; post it here when you get it.  Might need a bit more (I'm thinking like perhaps 1/4 teaspoon total, but we don't want to add too much all at once). 
       
      On the 10 gallon, YES, do a 75% PWC on this tank today, and of course add Prime.  The 75% sounds a lot, but we want to keep the ammonia at an absolute minimum, not having a cycle in place.  We'll see what tomorrow brings on this tank.  Might possibly need to do another PWC, and possible larger, but this remains to be seen.  I'd suggest doing a 90% PWC today if I thought the 15% difference would make a noticeable disparity in the ammonia level by tomorrow, but I don't believe it should.  Some hobbyists' water is of a quality that doesn't allow for doing large PWC's without stressing their fish.  When I first took into account all of your tap water parameters, it was obvious to me that your water would be fine for doing larger PWC's; I wouldn't have suggested this procedure otherwise.  THIS would be a situation where the Purigen you asked about would help (although not an absolute necessity).  This product could help keep the ammonia down as we wait for the 55 to cycle, if it can be found easily.
       
      Getting right to your question on Purigen's use for the 55, perhaps you don't know what it does.  It will remove the ammonia in your tank, and at the same time completely starve out the nitrifying bacteria, preventing a cycle.  This is why I said not to use it, but not because it's a bad product for its purpose.  You just don't want to use it in the 55. 
       
      .
      Ray
       
      In a message dated 1/6/2015 9:21:59 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Good morning!!! How are you? Thought I'd send my test results early
      today. It's cold and SNOWY
      here today, brrrrrrr!! Great day to curl up and try to keep warm. I'm
      thinking with the 55 gal numbers where they are, you'll have me add
      ammonia.....let's see would it be 1 tsp??
      55 Gal.
      Ph 7.6, HPh 7.4, ammonia 2, Nitrite 5, Nitrate pp 40, KH 3

      10 a Gal
      Ph 7.6, HPh 8.2, ammonia .25, Nitrite 0, Nitrate 5, GH 8, KH 6
      I added Prime this morning just to be safe. With ammonia now present,
      would you have me do PWC or wait
      Until it's a little higher?
      Peg
      peg@...
      Soon Opening: Hoopin' It Up Designs
      Custom Embroidery & Embellishmentsh

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56405 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 1/6/2015
      Subject: Re: 2nd round Updated Numbers 55 Gal snd 10 Gal 1/6/15
      Ok, after round 2 w/ 1 add'l tsp ammonia and 1 add'l tsp buffer
      Ph 7.6, Hph 8.2, Ammonia 4, Nitrites 5, Nitrates 20, KH 6

      I hope these numbers are a little closer to what you expected!
      Thanks Ray!!!


      On Jan 6, 2015, at 5:04 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Alright -- add 1 more teaspoon of ammonia and one more teaspoon of buffer, then check both again after 20 minutes.  Should be alright.  I figured on 2 total teaspoons of buffer but I didn't want to go too quickly.  This time, check the nitrite too.  Might be higher than 2.0, but should drop down a bit by tomorrow. 
       
      Ray
       
      In a message dated 1/6/2015 4:55:59 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      This is rely for adding  1 tsp buffer and 1 tsp Ammonia 

      After 20 min time lapse 

      Ph 7.6,  Hph 8.2, Ammonia 2, KH 5


      Sent from my iPhone

      On Jan 6, 2015, at 2:14 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Okay, I had forgotten about that.  Initially, I was trying to avoid raising the GH (and the pH) while raising the KH.  You can do a PWC of course, which will restore part of the KH, but there's no need right now to go through that.  Yes, baking soda acts similarly to Seachem's Malawi/Victoria buffer and they'll both raise the pH up to 8.3 -- 8.4 when enough is used to go that high.  As Seachem's buffer is directed to use 1 teaspoonful per 10 -- 20 gallons, that's a fairly wide spread to try to get an accurate handle on.  Once we know how much to use in your conditions (and everyone's water conditions are different), we have it made.  It's getting to know much to use in the first place that's tricky; it's experimental until then.  This buffer shouldn't raise the GH by very much, but I'm not sure if it would increase the pH an higher than your 8.2 level. 
       
      My concern with the pH is that the Nitrobacters do best at between pH 7.3 and 7.5, with an overall range of from 6.7 - 6.8 to 8.2 - 8.3; some reports indicate their prime range may be as high as pH 7.9 but that's not universally agreed upon and the higher we go, the more we're moving out of their best range.  On the other hand, Nitrosomonas' optimum range is between 7.8 and 8.0 and will still grow fairly well up until pH 8.5; they're of less concern.  To decrease the time in which the cycle completes, raise the temperature a bit -- at least up to 80 o.  You'll need to remember to turn it back down to where it is now (77 o -- 78 o ?) before making the final large PWC and adding the fish when that time comes. 
       
      We could try using Seachem's buffer at it's least influential rate of the 1 teaspoon per 20 gallons -- and start it at just ONE Teaspoon for the 55 gallons so as not to add more than we need.  First, as I see you generally do your tests in the morning, let's go with that and add the 1 teaspoon of ammonia right now.  Give the test results for the ammonia after 20 minutes.  You may add the buffer at this same time and give the KH and pH results too, after 20 minutes.  Before adding the Seachem buffer, dissolve it in a cup of warm water.  I'll check back here in a while.
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/6/2015 12:06:06 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Before I add the baking soda I wanted to let you know that I have Seachem Malawai Victoria buffer on hand. I've been using it on my frog tank. 
      I dint know if the baking soda does the same thing as the buffer but the baking soda had been discussed and then Suzy went with the buffer. Just letting you know before 
      I put the baking soda in. 

      I usually do all testing in the Am. Before 930 most days but sometimes I'm gone and then I gotta do them as time allows. 
      Sent from my iPhone

      On Jan 6, 2015, at 10:01 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Good Morning Peg,
       
      PLEASE include the message you're replying to, to make things easier to follow.  Doing well, thanks; temperature here right now is 18 o.  Expecting snow somewhere around noon -- fortunately only about an inch (YAAAAY).  Looks like you're getting a good idea of this cycle process.  Yes, I MAY say for you to add just 1 teaspoon of the ammonia today, to bring the level up to 3.0 ppm, but since you made the previous tests only 12 hours ago -- at 9:30 PM, ideally we need to wait 24 hours to see how much more ammonia will be consumed.  If you want to do this work at a more convenient time for yourself (rather than late in the evening), set a time that's good and stick to it.  Let me know what time that will be.  We can then plan on how much more ammonia to add for this day (only).  Right now, add no more than 1/8 teaspoon of Baking Soda (Sodium Bicarbonate) if you have it, and do a KH test after allowing 20 minutes to elapse; post it here when you get it.  Might need a bit more (I'm thinking like perhaps 1/4 teaspoon total, but we don't want to add too much all at once). 
       
      On the 10 gallon, YES, do a 75% PWC on this tank today, and of course add Prime.  The 75% sounds a lot, but we want to keep the ammonia at an absolute minimum, not having a cycle in place.  We'll see what tomorrow brings on this tank.  Might possibly need to do another PWC, and possible larger, but this remains to be seen.  I'd suggest doing a 90% PWC today if I thought the 15% difference would make a noticeable disparity in the ammonia level by tomorrow, but I don't believe it should.  Some hobbyists' water is of a quality that doesn't allow for doing large PWC's without stressing their fish.  When I first took into account all of your tap water parameters, it was obvious to me that your water would be fine for doing larger PWC's; I wouldn't have suggested this procedure otherwise.  THIS would be a situation where the Purigen you asked about would help (although not an absolute necessity).  This product could help keep the ammonia down as we wait for the 55 to cycle, if it can be found easily.
       
      Getting right to your question on Purigen's use for the 55, perhaps you don't know what it does.  It will remove the ammonia in your tank, and at the same time completely starve out the nitrifying bacteria, preventing a cycle.  This is why I said not to use it, but not because it's a bad product for its purpose.  You just don't want to use it in the 55. 
       
      .
      Ray
       
      In a message dated 1/6/2015 9:21:59 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Good morning!!! How are you? Thought I'd send my test results early
      today. It's cold and SNOWY
      here today, brrrrrrr!! Great day to curl up and try to keep warm. I'm
      thinking with the 55 gal numbers where they are, you'll have me add
      ammonia.....let's see would it be 1 tsp??
      55 Gal.
      Ph 7.6, HPh 7.4, ammonia 2, Nitrite 5, Nitrate pp 40, KH 3

      10 a Gal
      Ph 7.6, HPh 8.2, ammonia .25, Nitrite 0, Nitrate 5, GH 8, KH 6
      I added Prime this morning just to be safe. With ammonia now present,
      would you have me do PWC or wait
      Until it's a little higher?
      Peg
      peg@...
      Soon Opening: Hoopin' It Up Designs
      Custom Embroidery & Embellishmentsh

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56406 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/6/2015
      Subject: Re: 2nd round Updated Numbers 55 Gal snd 10 Gal 1/6/15
      AOL Email
      Nope, I was aiming for an ammonia level of 3.0 ppm, so that the nitrite wouldn't rise any further and would drop slightly.  One teaspoon of ammonia raised the level by 1.0 ppm yesterday; didn't work that way today!  Too high of a nitrite level can stall the cycle.  The pH and KH are fine though.  We'll see what things looks like tomorrow, but with 4.0 ppm ammonia the nitrite will probably rise.  . 
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/6/2015 6:29:49 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Ok, after round 2 w/ 1 add'l tsp ammonia and 1 add'l tsp buffer
      Ph 7.6, Hph 8.2, Ammonia 4, Nitrites 5, Nitrates 20, KH 6

      I hope these numbers are a little closer to what you expected!
      Thanks Ray!!!


      On Jan 6, 2015, at 5:04 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Alright -- add 1 more teaspoon of ammonia and one more teaspoon of buffer, then check both again after 20 minutes.  Should be alright.  I figured on 2 total teaspoons of buffer but I didn't want to go too quickly.  This time, check the nitrite too.  Might be higher than 2.0, but should drop down a bit by tomorrow. 
       
      Ray
       
      In a message dated 1/6/2015 4:55:59 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      This is rely for adding  1 tsp buffer and 1 tsp Ammonia 

      After 20 min time lapse 

      Ph 7.6,  Hph 8.2, Ammonia 2, KH 5


      Sent from my iPhone

      On Jan 6, 2015, at 2:14 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Okay, I had forgotten about that.  Initially, I was trying to avoid raising the GH (and the pH) while raising the KH.  You can do a PWC of course, which will restore part of the KH, but there's no need right now to go through that.  Yes, baking soda acts similarly to Seachem's Malawi/Victoria buffer and they'll both raise the pH up to 8.3 -- 8.4 when enough is used to go that high.  As Seachem's buffer is directed to use 1 teaspoonful per 10 -- 20 gallons, that's a fairly wide spread to try to get an accurate handle on.  Once we know how much to use in your conditions (and everyone's water conditions are different), we have it made.  It's getting to know much to use in the first place that's tricky; it's experimental until then.  This buffer shouldn't raise the GH by very much, but I'm not sure if it would increase the pH an higher than your 8.2 level. 
       
      My concern with the pH is that the Nitrobacters do best at between pH 7.3 and 7.5, with an overall range of from 6.7 - 6.8 to 8.2 - 8.3; some reports indicate their prime range may be as high as pH 7.9 but that's not universally agreed upon and the higher we go, the more we're moving out of their best range.  On the other hand, Nitrosomonas' optimum range is between 7.8 and 8.0 and will still grow fairly well up until pH 8.5; they're of less concern.  To decrease the time in which the cycle completes, raise the temperature a bit -- at least up to 80 o.  You'll need to remember to turn it back down to where it is now (77 o -- 78 o ?) before making the final large PWC and adding the fish when that time comes. 
       
      We could try using Seachem's buffer at it's least influential rate of the 1 teaspoon per 20 gallons -- and start it at just ONE Teaspoon for the 55 gallons so as not to add more than we need.  First, as I see you generally do your tests in the morning, let's go with that and add the 1 teaspoon of ammonia right now.  Give the test results for the ammonia after 20 minutes.  You may add the buffer at this same time and give the KH and pH results too, after 20 minutes.  Before adding the Seachem buffer, dissolve it in a cup of warm water.  I'll check back here in a while.
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/6/2015 12:06:06 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Before I add the baking soda I wanted to let you know that I have Seachem Malawai Victoria buffer on hand. I've been using it on my frog tank. 
      I dint know if the baking soda does the same thing as the buffer but the baking soda had been discussed and then Suzy went with the buffer. Just letting you know before 
      I put the baking soda in. 

      I usually do all testing in the Am. Before 930 most days but sometimes I'm gone and then I gotta do them as time allows. 
      Sent from my iPhone

      On Jan 6, 2015, at 10:01 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Good Morning Peg,
       
      PLEASE include the message you're replying to, to make things easier to follow.  Doing well, thanks; temperature here right now is 18 o.  Expecting snow somewhere around noon -- fortunately only about an inch (YAAAAY).  Looks like you're getting a good idea of this cycle process.  Yes, I MAY say for you to add just 1 teaspoon of the ammonia today, to bring the level up to 3.0 ppm, but since you made the previous tests only 12 hours ago -- at 9:30 PM, ideally we need to wait 24 hours to see how much more ammonia will be consumed.  If you want to do this work at a more convenient time for yourself (rather than late in the evening), set a time that's good and stick to it.  Let me know what time that will be.  We can then plan on how much more ammonia to add for this day (only).  Right now, add no more than 1/8 teaspoon of Baking Soda (Sodium Bicarbonate) if you have it, and do a KH test after allowing 20 minutes to elapse; post it here when you get it.  Might need a bit more (I'm thinking like perhaps 1/4 teaspoon total, but we don't want to add too much all at once). 
       
      On the 10 gallon, YES, do a 75% PWC on this tank today, and of course add Prime.  The 75% sounds a lot, but we want to keep the ammonia at an absolute minimum, not having a cycle in place.  We'll see what tomorrow brings on this tank.  Might possibly need to do another PWC, and possible larger, but this remains to be seen.  I'd suggest doing a 90% PWC today if I thought the 15% difference would make a noticeable disparity in the ammonia level by tomorrow, but I don't believe it should.  Some hobbyists' water is of a quality that doesn't allow for doing large PWC's without stressing their fish.  When I first took into account all of your tap water parameters, it was obvious to me that your water would be fine for doing larger PWC's; I wouldn't have suggested this procedure otherwise.  THIS would be a situation where the Purigen you asked about would help (although not an absolute necessity).  This product could help keep the ammonia down as we wait for the 55 to cycle, if it can be found easily.
       
      Getting right to your question on Purigen's use for the 55, perhaps you don't know what it does.  It will remove the ammonia in your tank, and at the same time completely starve out the nitrifying bacteria, preventing a cycle.  This is why I said not to use it, but not because it's a bad product for its purpose.  You just don't want to use it in the 55. 
       
      .
      Ray
       
      In a message dated 1/6/2015 9:21:59 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Good morning!!! How are you? Thought I'd send my test results early
      today. It's cold and SNOWY
      here today, brrrrrrr!! Great day to curl up and try to keep warm. I'm
      thinking with the 55 gal numbers where they are, you'll have me add
      ammonia.....let's see would it be 1 tsp??
      55 Gal.
      Ph 7.6, HPh 7.4, ammonia 2, Nitrite 5, Nitrate pp 40, KH 3

      10 a Gal
      Ph 7.6, HPh 8.2, ammonia .25, Nitrite 0, Nitrate 5, GH 8, KH 6
      I added Prime this morning just to be safe. With ammonia now present,
      would you have me do PWC or wait
      Until it's a little higher?
      Peg
      peg@...
      Soon Opening: Hoopin' It Up Designs
      Custom Embroidery & Embellishmentsh

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56407 From: deenerzz Date: 1/6/2015
      Subject: Re: Question on Fluval set-up
       
       
      I agree John.
       
      I am frugal but I do buy what is necessary for my pets.  Good idea on cutting sponge material to fit the canister! 
      I also use Hang on back filters, the Aqua Clear brand. I always double up on the sponges on these with the exception of their largest HOB which is huge but will not let you double up the sponge.  There are off brand sellers of the sponge material where you can buy replacements and large pieces to cut to fit.  Sometimes I will also use a pond sponge filter to put over the intake to catch stuff before it get gets in the filter. An added layer of filtration. Most of these sponges come cored all the way through leaving an end open. I usually go high tech and use a two liter soda bottle cap in one end and rubber band it on the outside to hold it in place. ;)
       
      It works, is inexpensive and reusuable.
       
      Mike
      I agree about not continuing use of the supplied carbon sponges-the reason carbon is always supplied by manufacturers is to keep you buying it & another misnomer is regularly changing your inert media. In practice filter media is good for much longer then most manufacturers tell us-until it almost falling to pieces which can be many years & in the case of bio balls or ceramic chips they are virtually indestructible. Ordinarily you don't need to use carbon unless you are removing medications from the tank after the course of treatment is over. This is especially so in smaller filters where space is at a premium so unless you are removing medications the carbon is better replaced with inert sponges, ceramic media or water polishing floss to give you as much area for the beneficial bacteria to colonise as possible.

      I have no personal experience of the smaller filters that have sealed replaceable media but I understand that you can still fit a regular sponge in place of the carbon unit because the replacement units are generally all the same size. Worst case scenario would be buy some inert sponge & cut it to size yourself for these. It would probably be a lot cheaper.

      An example of the longevity of filter media, my canister has a blue sponge on top of the lower basket which Eheim suggest is best replaced 'periodically'. I've had this device since 2007/8 & that sponge is just as good as the day I bought it. My nylon pot scrubbers also date from around that time & although some are getting a bit 'loose' they still work fine & can be trimmed with a pair of scissors when they start to unravel.

        John<o)))<



      ust as good as the day I bought it. My nylon pot scrubbers also date from around that time & although some are getting a bit 'loose' they still work fine & can be trimmed with a pair of scissors when they start to unravel.

        John<o)))<

      On 6 January 2015 at 06:49, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       
      DO NOT USE PURIGEN !!!
       
      In a message dated 1/5/2015 9:14:01 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       
      It wasn't in use in my pic (sorry) but after I read your response I looked at it and saw that the top of the waterfall where the bubbles come out is up above and to the left of the input for the Fluval. Since the bubbles 
      come out and float up to the top it appeared it wouldn't be a problem. I started using it and I haven't heard tes
      any pssssst's. Thank you for looking at it though. 

      Can I ask you another question about the Fluval? Mine has 3 media baskets and came with Fluval brand media. Can you use media made by other companies? I'm interested in the product by Seachem called "Purigen."  Just wondering if I could use it in the Fluval?

      Peg
      Soon Opening: Hoopin' It Up Designs
                                Custom Embroidery & Embellishments

       



      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56408 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 1/6/2015
      Subject: Re: Question on Fluval set-up
      Hi Mike,

        I know very little about HOB filters never having used one so it's good to hear they can also be kept running on a budget too. Before I upgraded to my 100 gallon with it's wet/dry sump filter I just used two canisters on my 40 gallon & I did used to buy the generic water polishing floss pads off eBay which were vastly cheaper than the Eheim version & they are the one thing that you need to keep replacing so it can get very expensive over time.

      Once I got my wet/dry I needed a far greater amount of polishing floss & it was then that I discovered you could buy it at my local market from the upholstery stall, it comes on a roll 6 feet wide & is used for stuffing soft toys & pillows. I buy 10 feet off the roll for £10 which is around $15, this is great because I use a strip 16 inches wide x 9 feet every few weeks when I clean the filter.

      This is also the very same stuff that those filter pads are made of & even the generic ones which are much cheaper are still hugely expensive compared to making your own. All I did was to make a card template of the Eheim pad & then cut out whatever I need-I use two doubled-up because the material I buy is quite thin but it does come in various thicknesses, each pad works out to cost just a few pennies.

        John<o)))<

      On 6 January 2015 at 23:44, Deenerz@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

       
       
      I agree John.
       
      I am frugal but I do buy what is necessary for my pets.  Good idea on cutting sponge material to fit the canister! 
      I also use Hang on back filters, the Aqua Clear brand. I always double up on the sponges on these with the exception of their largest HOB which is huge but will not let you double up the sponge.  There are off brand sellers of the sponge material where you can buy replacements and large pieces to cut to fit.  Sometimes I will also use a pond sponge filter to put over the intake to catch stuff before it get gets in the filter. An added layer of filtration. Most of these sponges come cored all the way through leaving an end open. I usually go high tech and use a two liter soda bottle cap in one end and rubber band it on the outside to hold it in place. ;)
       
      It works, is inexpensive and reusuable.
       
      Mike
      I agree about not continuing use of the supplied carbon sponges-the reason carbon is always supplied by manufacturers is to keep you buying it & another misnomer is regularly changing your inert media. In practice filter media is good for much longer then most manufacturers tell us-until it almost falling to pieces which can be many years & in the case of bio balls or ceramic chips they are virtually indestructible. Ordinarily you don't need to use carbon unless you are removing medications from the tank after the course of treatment is over. This is especially so in smaller filters where space is at a premium so unless you are removing medications the carbon is better replaced with inert sponges, ceramic media or water polishing floss to give you as much area for the beneficial bacteria to colonise as possible.

      I have no personal experience of the smaller filters that have sealed replaceable media but I understand that you can still fit a regular sponge in place of the carbon unit because the replacement units are generally all the same size. Worst case scenario would be buy some inert sponge & cut it to size yourself for these. It would probably be a lot cheaper.

      An example of the longevity of filter media, my canister has a blue sponge on top of the lower basket which Eheim suggest is best replaced 'periodically'. I've had this device since 2007/8 & that sponge is just as good as the day I bought it. My nylon pot scrubbers also date from around that time & although some are getting a bit 'loose' they still work fine & can be trimmed with a pair of scissors when they start to unravel.

        John<o)))<



      ust as good as the day I bought it. My nylon pot scrubbers also date from around that time & although some are getting a bit 'loose' they still work fine & can be trimmed with a pair of scissors when they start to unravel.

        John<o)))<

      On 6 January 2015 at 06:49, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       
      DO NOT USE PURIGEN !!!
       
      In a message dated 1/5/2015 9:14:01 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       
      It wasn't in use in my pic (sorry) but after I read your response I looked at it and saw that the top of the waterfall where the bubbles come out is up above and to the left of the input for the Fluval. Since the bubbles 
      come out and float up to the top it appeared it wouldn't be a problem. I started using it and I haven't heard tes
      any pssssst's. Thank you for looking at it though. 

      Can I ask you another question about the Fluval? Mine has 3 media baskets and came with Fluval brand media. Can you use media made by other companies? I'm interested in the product by Seachem called "Purigen."  Just wondering if I could use it in the Fluval?

      Peg
      Soon Opening: Hoopin' It Up Designs
                                Custom Embroidery & Embellishments

       




      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56409 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 1/6/2015
      Subject: Re: 2nd round Updated Numbers 55 Gal snd 10 Gal 1/6/15u
      I'm trying to understand the nitrogen cycle....humor me but please correct me where I'm wrong...... 
      Fish in --> Ammonia is created by fish, waste, leftover foodstuff etc... --> ammonia being broken down turns into nitrites-->beneficial bacteria turns the nitrites into nitrates> 

      Is the high nitrite count indicating that there isn't enough beneficial bacteria to keep up with the conversion from nitrite to nitrate? Would it "stall" because it kind of burns itself out, kinda spinning its wheels unable to get traction to go forward? 

      Would it help to 
      a) do a small water change to get rid of some of the ammonia, nitrites and nitrates so the bacteria can catch up (BB is mostly in the filter snd substrate right?)
      OR 
      b) add more good bacteria (Safe Start) that would jump in, hopefully flood the nitrites sitting around waiting to be converted? 

      I have an Amazon delivery coming tomorrow which includes 2 lg bottles of Safe Start and the Purigen. 
      I know you told me that Purigen removes ammonia, nitrites and nitrates. Is there a way to manipulate the Purigen where It only depletes the nitrites? 

      Peg
      Soon Opening: Hoopin' It Up Designs
                                Custom Embroidery & Embellishments

      On Jan 6, 2015, at 6:38 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Nope, I was aiming for an ammonia level of 3.0 ppm, so that the nitrite wouldn't rise any further and would drop slightly.  One teaspoon of ammonia raised the level by 1.0 ppm yesterday; didn't work that way today!  Too high of a nitrite level can stall the cycle.  The pH and KH are fine though.  We'll see what things looks like tomorrow, but with 4.0 ppm ammonia the nitrite will probably rise.  . 
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/6/2015 6:29:49 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@... writes:
       

      Ok, after round 2 w/ 1 add'l tsp ammonia and 1 add'l tsp buffer
      Ph 7.6, Hph 8.2, Ammonia 4, Nitrites 5, Nitrates 20, KH 6

      I hope these numbers are a little closer to what you expected!
      Thanks Ray!!!


      On Jan 6, 2015, at 5:04 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Alright -- add 1 more teaspoon of ammonia and one more teaspoon of buffer, then check both again after 20 minutes.  Should be alright.  I figured on 2 total teaspoons of buffer but I didn't want to go too quickly.  This time, check the nitrite too.  Might be higher than 2.0, but should drop down a bit by tomorrow. 
       
      Ray
       
      In a message dated 1/6/2015 4:55:59 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      This is rely for adding  1 tsp buffer and 1 tsp Ammonia 

      After 20 min time lapse 

      Ph 7.6,  Hph 8.2, Ammonia 2, KH 5


      Sent from my iPhone

      On Jan 6, 2015, at 2:14 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Okay, I had forgotten about that.  Initially, I was trying to avoid raising the GH (and the pH) while raising the KH.  You can do a PWC of course, which will restore part of the KH, but there's no need right now to go through that.  Yes, baking soda acts similarly to Seachem's Malawi/Victoria buffer and they'll both raise the pH up to 8.3 -- 8.4 when enough is used to go that high.  As Seachem's buffer is directed to use 1 teaspoonful per 10 -- 20 gallons, that's a fairly wide spread to try to get an accurate handle on.  Once we know how much to use in your conditions (and everyone's water conditions are different), we have it made.  It's getting to know much to use in the first place that's tricky; it's experimental until then.  This buffer shouldn't raise the GH by very much, but I'm not sure if it would increase the pH an higher than your 8.2 level. 
       
      My concern with the pH is that the Nitrobacters do best at between pH 7.3 and 7.5, with an overall range of from 6.7 - 6.8 to 8.2 - 8.3; some reports indicate their prime range may be as high as pH 7.9 but that's not universally agreed upon and the higher we go, the more we're moving out of their best range.  On the other hand, Nitrosomonas' optimum range is between 7.8 and 8.0 and will still grow fairly well up until pH 8.5; they're of less concern.  To decrease the time in which the cycle completes, raise the temperature a bit -- at least up to 80 o.  You'll need to remember to turn it back down to where it is now (77 o -- 78 o ?) before making the final large PWC and adding the fish when that time comes. 
       
      We could try using Seachem's buffer at it's least influential rate of the 1 teaspoon per 20 gallons -- and start it at just ONE Teaspoon for the 55 gallons so as not to add more than we need.  First, as I see you generally do your tests in the morning, let's go with that and add the 1 teaspoon of ammonia right now.  Give the test results for the ammonia after 20 minutes.  You may add the buffer at this same time and give the KH and pH results too, after 20 minutes.  Before adding the Seachem buffer, dissolve it in a cup of warm water.  I'll check back here in a while.
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/6/2015 12:06:06 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Before I add the baking soda I wanted to let you know that I have Seachem Malawai Victoria buffer on hand. I've been using it on my frog tank. 
      I dint know if the baking soda does the same thing as the buffer but the baking soda had been discussed and then Suzy went with the buffer. Just letting you know before 
      I put the baking soda in. 

      I usually do all testing in the Am. Before 930 most days but sometimes I'm gone and then I gotta do them as time allows. 
      Sent from my iPhone

      On Jan 6, 2015, at 10:01 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Good Morning Peg,
       
      PLEASE include the message you're replying to, to make things easier to follow.  Doing well, thanks; temperature here right now is 18 o.  Expecting snow somewhere around noon -- fortunately only about an inch (YAAAAY).  Looks like you're getting a good idea of this cycle process.  Yes, I MAY say for you to add just 1 teaspoon of the ammonia today, to bring the level up to 3.0 ppm, but since you made the previous tests only 12 hours ago -- at 9:30 PM, ideally we need to wait 24 hours to see how much more ammonia will be consumed.  If you want to do this work at a more convenient time for yourself (rather than late in the evening), set a time that's good and stick to it.  Let me know what time that will be.  We can then plan on how much more ammonia to add for this day (only).  Right now, add no more than 1/8 teaspoon of Baking Soda (Sodium Bicarbonate) if you have it, and do a KH test after allowing 20 minutes to elapse; post it here when you get it.  Might need a bit more (I'm thinking like perhaps 1/4 teaspoon total, but we don't want to add too much all at once). 
       
      On the 10 gallon, YES, do a 75% PWC on this tank today, and of course add Prime.  The 75% sounds a lot, but we want to keep the ammonia at an absolute minimum, not having a cycle in place.  We'll see what tomorrow brings on this tank.  Might possibly need to do another PWC, and possible larger, but this remains to be seen.  I'd suggest doing a 90% PWC today if I thought the 15% difference would make a noticeable disparity in the ammonia level by tomorrow, but I don't believe it should.  Some hobbyists' water is of a quality that doesn't allow for doing large PWC's without stressing their fish.  When I first took into account all of your tap water parameters, it was obvious to me that your water would be fine for doing larger PWC's; I wouldn't have suggested this procedure otherwise.  THIS would be a situation where the Purigen you asked about would help (although not an absolute necessity).  This product could help keep the ammonia down as we wait for the 55 to cycle, if it can be found easily.
       
      Getting right to your question on Purigen's use for the 55, perhaps you don't know what it does.  It will remove the ammonia in your tank, and at the same time completely starve out the nitrifying bacteria, preventing a cycle.  This is why I said not to use it, but not because it's a bad product for its purpose.  You just don't want to use it in the 55. 
       
      .
      Ray
       
      In a message dated 1/6/2015 9:21:59 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Good morning!!! How are you? Thought I'd send my test results early
      today. It's cold and SNOWY
      here today, brrrrrrr!! Great day to curl up and try to keep warm. I'm
      thinking with the 55 gal numbers where they are, you'll have me add
      ammonia.....let's see would it be 1 tsp??
      55 Gal.
      Ph 7.6, HPh 7.4, ammonia 2, Nitrite 5, Nitrate pp 40, KH 3

      10 a Gal
      Ph 7.6, HPh 8.2, ammonia .25, Nitrite 0, Nitrate 5, GH 8, KH 6
      I added Prime this morning just to be safe. With ammonia now present,
      would you have me do PWC or wait
      Until it's a little higher?
      Peg
      peg@...
      Soon Opening: Hoopin' It Up Designs
      Custom Embroidery & Embellishmentsh

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56410 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 1/6/2015
      Subject: Re: Question on Fluval set-up
      John,
      Are you saying you bought polyester quilt batting from the craft/fabric store and then cut filters for your canister filter? Does it have to be the poly type? There Is also quilt batting made from cotton. It's much more dense and would really catch a lot of stuff but I wondered if the cotton could even be used for the aquarium?
      Peg
      Soon Opening: Hoopin' It Up Designs
                                Custom Embroidery & Embellishments

      On Jan 6, 2015, at 7:22 PM, SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Hi Mike,

        I know very little about HOB filters never having used one so it's good to hear they can also be kept running on a budget too. Before I upgraded to my 100 gallon with it's wet/dry sump filter I just used two canisters on my 40 gallon & I did used to buy the generic water polishing floss pads off eBay which were vastly cheaper than the Eheim version & they are the one thing that you need to keep replacing so it can get very expensive over time.

      Once I got my wet/dry I needed a far greater amount of polishing floss & it was then that I discovered you could buy it at my local market from the upholsterys  stall, it comes on a roll 6 feet wide & is used for stuffing soft toys & pillows. I buy 10 feet off the roll for £10 which is around $15, this is great because I use a strip 16 inches wide x 9 feet every few weeks when I clean the filter.

      This is also the very same stuff that those filter pads are made of & even the generic ones which are much cheaper are still hugely expensive compared to making your own. All I did was to make a card template of the Eheim pad & then cut out whatever I need-I use two doubled-up because the material I buy is q thin but it does come in various thicknesses, each pad works out to cost just a few pennies.

        John<o)))<

      On 6 January 2015 at 23:44, Deenerz@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

       
       
      I agree John.
       
      I am frugal but I do buy what is necessary for my pets.  Good idea on cutting sponge material to fit the canister! 
      I also use Hang on back filters, the Aqua Clear brand. I always double up on the sponges on these with the exception of their largest HOB which is huge but will not let you double up the sponge.  There are off brand sellers of the sponge material where you can buy replacements and large pieces to cut to fit.  Sometimes I will also use a pond sponge filter to put over the intake to catch stuff before it get gets in the filter. An added layer of filtration. Most of these sponges come cored all the way through leaving an end open. I usually go high tech and use a two liter soda bottle cap in one end and rubber band it on the outside to hold it in place. ;)
       
      It works, is inexpensive and reusuable.
       
      Mike
      I agree about not continuing use of the supplied carbon sponges-the reason carbon is always supplied by manufacturers is to keep you buying it & another misnomer is regularly changing your inert media. In practice filter media is good for much longer then most manufacturers tell us-until it almost falling to pieces which can be many years & in the case of bio balls or ceramic chips they are virtually indestructible. Ordinarily you don't need to use carbon unless you are removing medications from the tank after the course of treatment is over. This is especially so in smaller filters where space is at a premium so unless you are removing medications the carbon is better replaced with inert sponges, ceramic media or water polishing floss to give you as much area for the beneficial bacteria to colonise as possible.

      I have no personal experience of the smaller filters that have sealed replaceable media but I understand that you can still fit a regular sponge in place of the carbon unit because the replacement units are generally all the same size. Worst case scenario would be buy some inert sponge & cut it to size yourself for these. It would probably be a lot cheaper.

      An example of the longevity of filter media, my canister has a blue sponge on top of the lower basket which Eheim suggest is best replaced 'periodically'. I've had this device since 2007/8 & that sponge is just as good as the day I bought it. My nylon pot scrubbers also date from around that time & although some are getting a bit 'loose' they still work fine & can be trimmed with a pair of scissors when they start to unravel.

        John<o)))<



      ust as good as the day I bought it. My nylon pot scrubbers also date from around that time & although some are getting a bit 'loose' they still work fine & can be trimmed with a pair of scissors when they start to unravel.

        John<o)))<

      On 6 January 2015 at 06:49, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       
      DO NOT USE PURIGEN !!!
       
      In a message dated 1/5/2015 9:14:01 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       
      It wasn't in use in my pic (sorry) but after I read your response I looked at it and saw that the top of the waterfall where the bubbles come out is up above and to the left of the input for the Fluval. Since the bubbles 
      come out and float up to the top it appeared it wouldn't be a problem. I started using it and I haven't heard tes
      any pssssst's. Thank you for looking at it though. 

      Can I ask you another question about the Fluval? Mine has 3 media baskets and came with Fluval brand media. Can you use media made by other companies? I'm interested in the product by Seachem called "Purigen."  Just wondering if I could use it in the Fluval?

      Peg
      Soon Opening: Hoopin' It Up Designs
                                Custom Embroidery & Embellishments

       




      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56411 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/6/2015
      Subject: Re: Question on Fluval set-up
      AOL Email
      Peg,
       
      I'll let John elaborate on this, but only as I'm just now approving your message for posting, I need to say that cotton will rot in fast time in the aquarium -- which is why poly is the way to go, it doesn't rot.
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/7/2015 12:31:33 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      John,
      Are you saying you bought polyester quilt batting from the craft/fabric store and then cut filters for your canister filter? Does it have to be the poly type? There Is also quilt batting made from cotton. It's much more dense and would really catch a lot of stuff but I wondered if the cotton could even be used for the aquarium?
      Peg
      Soon Opening: Hoopin' It Up Designs
                                Custom Embroidery & Embellishments

      On Jan 6, 2015, at 7:22 PM, SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Hi Mike,

        I know very little about HOB filters never having used one so it's good to hear they can also be kept running on a budget too. Before I upgraded to my 100 gallon with it's wet/dry sump filter I just used two canisters on my 40 gallon & I did used to buy the generic water polishing floss pads off eBay which were vastly cheaper than the Eheim version & they are the one thing that you need to keep replacing so it can get very expensive over time.

      Once I got my wet/dry I needed a far greater amount of polishing floss & it was then that I discovered you could buy it at my local market from the upholsterys  stall, it comes on a roll 6 feet wide & is used for stuffing soft toys & pillows. I buy 10 feet off the roll for £10 which is around $15, this is great because I use a strip 16 inches wide x 9 feet every few weeks when I clean the filter.

      This is also the very same stuff that those filter pads are made of & even the generic ones which are much cheaper are still hugely expensive compared to making your own. All I did was to make a card template of the Eheim pad & then cut out whatever I need-I use two doubled-up because the material I buy is q thin but it does come in various thicknesses, each pad works out to cost just a few pennies.

        John<o)))<

      On 6 January 2015 at 23:44, Deenerz@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

       
       
      I agree John.
       
      I am frugal but I do buy what is necessary for my pets.  Good idea on cutting sponge material to fit the canister! 
      I also use Hang on back filters, the Aqua Clear brand. I always double up on the sponges on these with the exception of their largest HOB which is huge but will not let you double up the sponge.  There are off brand sellers of the sponge material where you can buy replacements and large pieces to cut to fit.  Sometimes I will also use a pond sponge filter to put over the intake to catch stuff before it get gets in the filter. An added layer of filtration. Most of these sponges come cored all the way through leaving an end open. I usually go high tech and use a two liter soda bottle cap in one end and rubber band it on the outside to hold it in place. ;)
       
      It works, is inexpensive and reusuable.
       
      Mike
      I agree about not continuing use of the supplied carbon sponges-the reason carbon is always supplied by manufacturers is to keep you buying it & another misnomer is regularly changing your inert media. In practice filter media is good for much longer then most manufacturers tell us-until it almost falling to pieces which can be many years & in the case of bio balls or ceramic chips they are virtually indestructible. Ordinarily you don't need to use carbon unless you are removing medications from the tank after the course of treatment is over. This is especially so in smaller filters where space is at a premium so unless you are removing medications the carbon is better replaced with inert sponges, ceramic media or water polishing floss to give you as much area for the beneficial bacteria to colonise as possible.

      I have no personal experience of the smaller filters that have sealed replaceable media but I understand that you can still fit a regular sponge in place of the carbon unit because the replacement units are generally all the same size. Worst case scenario would be buy some inert sponge & cut it to size yourself for these. It would probably be a lot cheaper.

      An example of the longevity of filter media, my canister has a blue sponge on top of the lower basket which Eheim suggest is best replaced 'periodically'. I've had this device since 2007/8 & that sponge is just as good as the day I bought it. My nylon pot scrubbers also date from around that time & although some are getting a bit 'loose' they still work fine & can be trimmed with a pair of scissors when they start to unravel.

        John<o)))<



      ust as good as the day I bought it. My nylon pot scrubbers also date from around that time & although some are getting a bit 'loose' they still work fine & can be trimmed with a pair of scissors when they start to unravel.

        John<o)))<

      On 6 January 2015 at 06:49, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       
      DO NOT USE PURIGEN !!!
       
      In a message dated 1/5/2015 9:14:01 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       
      It wasn't in use in my pic (sorry) but after I read your response I looked at it and saw that the top of the waterfall where the bubbles come out is up above and to the left of the input for the Fluval. Since the bubbles 
      come out and float up to the top it appeared it wouldn't be a problem. I started using it and I haven't heard tes
      any pssssst's. Thank you for looking at it though. 

      Can I ask you another question about the Fluval? Mine has 3 media baskets and came with Fluval brand media. Can you use media made by other companies? I'm interested in the product by Seachem called "Purigen."  Just wondering if I could use it in the Fluval?

      Peg
      Soon Opening: Hoopin' It Up Designs
                                Custom Embroidery & Embellishments

       




      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56412 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/6/2015
      Subject: Re: 2nd round Updated Numbers 55 Gal snd 10 Gal 1/6/15u
      AOL Email
      Yes, looks like you have your understanding of the nitrogen cycle right, and when I say "organic waste," I'm mainly referring to fish waste but it would include anything organic that's being oxidized.  The ammonia is broken down by several genera of bacteria and the nitrite in turn is also broken down by several other genera of bacteria. 
       
      Yes, the high nitrite value indicates there's not enough of the bacteria yet available that converts this to nitrate.  As nitrite is even more toxic than ammonia -- even to nitrifying bacteria -- a high level of nitrite will start killing off these bacteria and that's what causes the stall.  The cycle can't proceed again until the nitrite is brought back down, and even then, the bacteria populations must now get back up there were they once were before the die-off to be able to process the waste effectively again.  So, it's not just a stall at a certain level where it can proceed from again, but the cycle would have actually gone backward from having a partial die-off and now needs to get re-established again up to its previous level to continue -- not saying that this happened yet here but it could be a possibility.
       
      I was going to wait until the morning to see where the numbers are and go from there.  As it is now, at this time of night, it looks like this is the only course at this time anyway.  One course of action would be to do a PWC to physically lower the nitrite, which is what I expect will be needed and most useful -- just as you're thinking of.  Beneficial Bacteria (BB?) is mostly in the filter.  It's also on all other surfaces inside of the aquarium, including on the substrate, glass, rocks, ornaments, filter tubes, heater, plants (live or artificial), etc.,  but not necessarily any more on one surface than another.  Adding more good bacteria would surely help, but I'm not understanding why if you spent money on 2 large bottles of Safe Start, why you didn't just spend it on Dr. Tim's One & Only and be done with cycling.  You added Safe Start at the beginning of this cycling process yet it would seem to appear that it hasn't done anything in adding live bacteria capable of breaking down this organic waste.  I do need to question whether Safe Start contains live nitrifying bacteria.
       
      Purigen removes ammonia, nitrite and nitrate; it can't just be specific in removing only one of these.  Best course of action if the nitrite is still up at 5.0 ppm, which I suspect, is to do a 40% PWC, which should remove 2.0 ppm dropping the level to 3.0 ppm.  If the nitrite has increased overnight, then a larger PWC is called for.  Trusting that fresh Safe Start might be more effective in containing live bacteria, add this to the water after the PWC.  As a 40% PWC will reduce the ammonia level from 4.0 ppm down to 2.4 ppm, you'll need to add a small amount of ammonia back in; 1/2 teaspoon for the tank would be the way to start, with testing it again after 20 minutes.  Can't expect everything to go smooth all the time.  BTW, if you haven't done so already, raise the temperature.
       
      Ray 
       
       
       
      In a message dated 1/7/2015 12:30:23 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      I'm trying to understand the nitrogen cycle....humor me but please correct me where I'm wrong...... 
      Fish in --> Ammonia is created by fish, waste, leftover foodstuff etc... --> ammonia being broken down turns into nitrites-->beneficial bacteria turns the nitrites into nitrates> 

      Is the high nitrite count indicating that there isn't enough beneficial bacteria to keep up with the conversion from nitrite to nitrate? Would it "stall" because it kind of burns itself out, kinda spinning its wheels unable to get traction to go forward? 

      Would it help to 
      a) do a small water change to get rid of some of the ammonia, nitrites and nitrates so the bacteria can catch up (BB is mostly in the filter snd substrate right?)
      OR 
      b) add more good bacteria (Safe Start) that would jump in, hopefully flood the nitrites sitting around waiting to be converted? 

      I have an Amazon delivery coming tomorrow which includes 2 lg bottles of Safe Start and the Purigen. 
      I know you told me that Purigen removes ammonia, nitrites and nitrates. Is there a way to manipulate the Purigen where It only depletes the nitrites? 

      Peg
      Soon Opening: Hoopin' It Up Designs
                                Custom Embroidery & Embellishments

      On Jan 6, 2015, at 6:38 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Nope, I was aiming for an ammonia level of 3.0 ppm, so that the nitrite wouldn't rise any further and would drop slightly.  One teaspoon of ammonia raised the level by 1.0 ppm yesterday; didn't work that way today!  Too high of a nitrite level can stall the cycle.  The pH and KH are fine though.  We'll see what things looks like tomorrow, but with 4.0 ppm ammonia the nitrite will probably rise.  . 
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/6/2015 6:29:49 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@... writes:
       

      Ok, after round 2 w/ 1 add'l tsp ammonia and 1 add'l tsp buffer
      Ph 7.6, Hph 8.2, Ammonia 4, Nitrites 5, Nitrates 20, KH 6

      I hope these numbers are a little closer to what you expected!
      Thanks Ray

       

       
       



       
       



       
       


      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56413 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 1/7/2015
      Subject: Re: Question on Fluval set-up
      Hi Peg,

        Yes, polyester foam-that's the stuff I buy. I only use that because that is what many filters use as a water polishing pad & didn't realise there was also a cotton alternative but I see that Ray has commented about why it is not used.

      Generally this material is used in canister filters as the last thing the water goes through before returning to the tank because it removes the very fine particles not grabbed by the mechanical & biological medias-hence 'water polishing'. It is also used in many internal filters, I used to use a strip of it in my Fluvals between the sponges.

        John<o)))<

      On 7 January 2015 at 01:56, Peg Yruegas peg@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      John,
      Are you saying you bought polyester quilt batting from the craft/fabric store and then cut filters for your canister filter? Does it have to be the poly type? There Is also quilt batting made from cotton. It's much more dense and would really catch a lot of stuff but I wondered if the cotton could even be used for the aquarium?
      Peg
      Soon Opening: Hoopin' It Up Designs
                                Custom Embroidery & Embellishments

      On Jan 6, 2015, at 7:22 PM, SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Hi Mike,

        I know very little about HOB filters never having used one so it's good to hear they can also be kept running on a budget too. Before I upgraded to my 100 gallon with it's wet/dry sump filter I just used two canisters on my 40 gallon & I did used to buy the generic water polishing floss pads off eBay which were vastly cheaper than the Eheim version & they are the one thing that you need to keep replacing so it can get very expensive over time.

      Once I got my wet/dry I needed a far greater amount of polishing floss & it was then that I discovered you could buy it at my local market from the upholsterys  stall, it comes on a roll 6 feet wide & is used for stuffing soft toys & pillows. I buy 10 feet off the roll for £10 which is around $15, this is great because I use a strip 16 inches wide x 9 feet every few weeks when I clean the filter.

      This is also the very same stuff that those filter pads are made of & even the generic ones which are much cheaper are still hugely expensive compared to making your own. All I did was to make a card template of the Eheim pad & then cut out whatever I need-I use two doubled-up because the material I buy is q thin but it does come in various thicknesses, each pad works out to cost just a few pennies.

        John<o)))<

      On 6 January 2015 at 23:44, Deenerz@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

       
       
      I agree John.
       
      I am frugal but I do buy what is necessary for my pets.  Good idea on cutting sponge material to fit the canister! 
      I also use Hang on back filters, the Aqua Clear brand. I always double up on the sponges on these with the exception of their largest HOB which is huge but will not let you double up the sponge.  There are off brand sellers of the sponge material where you can buy replacements and large pieces to cut to fit.  Sometimes I will also use a pond sponge filter to put over the intake to catch stuff before it get gets in the filter. An added layer of filtration. Most of these sponges come cored all the way through leaving an end open. I usually go high tech and use a two liter soda bottle cap in one end and rubber band it on the outside to hold it in place. ;)
       
      It works, is inexpensive and reusuable.
       
      Mike
      I agree about not continuing use of the supplied carbon sponges-the reason carbon is always supplied by manufacturers is to keep you buying it & another misnomer is regularly changing your inert media. In practice filter media is good for much longer then most manufacturers tell us-until it almost falling to pieces which can be many years & in the case of bio balls or ceramic chips they are virtually indestructible. Ordinarily you don't need to use carbon unless you are removing medications from the tank after the course of treatment is over. This is especially so in smaller filters where space is at a premium so unless you are removing medications the carbon is better replaced with inert sponges, ceramic media or water polishing floss to give you as much area for the beneficial bacteria to colonise as possible.

      I have no personal experience of the smaller filters that have sealed replaceable media but I understand that you can still fit a regular sponge in place of the carbon unit because the replacement units are generally all the same size. Worst case scenario would be buy some inert sponge & cut it to size yourself for these. It would probably be a lot cheaper.

      An example of the longevity of filter media, my canister has a blue sponge on top of the lower basket which Eheim suggest is best replaced 'periodically'. I've had this device since 2007/8 & that sponge is just as good as the day I bought it. My nylon pot scrubbers also date from around that time & although some are getting a bit 'loose' they still work fine & can be trimmed with a pair of scissors when they start to unravel.

        John<o)))<



      ust as good as the day I bought it. My nylon pot scrubbers also date from around that time & although some are getting a bit 'loose' they still work fine & can be trimmed with a pair of scissors when they start to unravel.

        John<o)))<

      On 6 January 2015 at 06:49, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       
      DO NOT USE PURIGEN !!!
       
      In a message dated 1/5/2015 9:14:01 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       
      It wasn't in use in my pic (sorry) but after I read your response I looked at it and saw that the top of the waterfall where the bubbles come out is up above and to the left of the input for the Fluval. Since the bubbles 
      come out and float up to the top it appeared it wouldn't be a problem. I started using it and I haven't heard tes
      any pssssst's. Thank you for looking at it though. 

      Can I ask you another question about the Fluval? Mine has 3 media baskets and came with Fluval brand media. Can you use media made by other companies? I'm interested in the product by Seachem called "Purigen."  Just wondering if I could use it in the Fluval?

      Peg
      Soon Opening: Hoopin' It Up Designs
                                Custom Embroidery & Embellishments

       





      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56414 From: Harry Leverett Date: 1/7/2015
      Subject: Aging water
      Morning everyone.
      I'm thinking about aging my tank water. I'm on city water so we have chlorine and chloramines.

      I've read that Prime and other treatments with bond the the two for about 24 hours then release the in the form of ammonia. Will a sponge filter remove the ammonia as its released ?
      Harry L.
      Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56415 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 1/7/2015
      Subject: Re: Aging water
      Hi Harry,

        I age my tank water in a plastic 20 gallon food safe container-I set it in the bath just in case of any failures. I only have chlorine in my water so that will off-gas after 24 hours although I believe the chloramine stays bonded for weeks so you will have to use water conditioner to remove this from your water. Saying that I also use water conditioner to take care of anything else nasty in the water supply [have you seen the list of additives in domestic water supplies!!]. Another benefit of ageing your water-especially in Winter if you don't have a heated tank is that the water will get to room temperature after 24 hours so you don't need to artificially heat it up. I use a small pump in the bottom of the tub to keep the water turning over while it is ageing & then I connect the pump up to a hose to put the new water in my tank so I don't have to bother with the buckets.

      Just out of interest-I'm in the UK & typically regional water companies here add either chlorine OR chloramine to the water supply but not both-is it common in the States to add both then?

      Sorry, I don't have any knowledge of Prime or what it can & can't do with the ammonia as I've never used it.

        John<o)))<

      On 7 January 2015 at 12:08, Harry Leverett harryleverett60@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      Morning everyone.
      I'm thinking about aging my tank water. I'm on city water so we have chlorine and chloramines.

      I've read that Prime and other treatments with bond the the two for about 24 hours then release the in the form of ammonia. Will a sponge filter remove the ammonia as its released ?
      Harry L.
      Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID


      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56416 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/7/2015
      Subject: Re: Aging water
      AOL Email
      G'Morning Harry,
       
      Not needing to add very much to John's excellent reply, I'll try to keep this short and to the point.  As for having both chlorine and chloramine added to your water, it appears you're under the wrong impression. While the minority of water companies may still add chlorine (only), those which have switched now aedd (only) chloramine as this is a compound of both chlorine and ammonia.  It would be redundant for water companies to add chlorine separately when they're already adding it as part of the chlorine.  As chloramine is more effective, this is one reason why most of the suppliers switched, not to mention it's a lot cheaper for them as they don't need to use nearly the amount of chlorine as they previously did.  To be clearer on the chlorine addition, and perhaps where you've received the information that both are added, in-plant they add ammonia to the water as a separate chemical and "upstream" from this they add the chlorine -- and they then both mix together and combine as the compound chloramine before (or "as") being pumped out of the their plant through the distribution pipes.  Well, I guess I couldn't make it very short < g >.
       
      Just as John said, you'll need to use a good water conditioner -- and one that treats for chloramine, not just for chlorine.  The Prime you asked about is exactly one of these dechloraminators.  Prime will also remove any heavy metals in your water supply.  What Prime does with chloramine is to break the bond between the chlorine and the ammonia.  While it detoxifies the relatively smaller amount of chlorine now released it also converts the free ammonia to relatively harmless ammonium, thereby effectively detoxifying the ammonia too.  Prime's action is instantaneous (not 24 hours).  Therefore you just add this water conditioner to your water as you're filling your tank back up right from your tap -- at the proper temperature.  There's no need to age your water (if you have chloramine), nor would that do any good, as getting back to what John said, a container of "aging" water can sit for weeks (MANY weeks, like perhaps 6 or so) before the bond between the ammonia and the chlorine starts to separate, and that's mainly due to bacteria slowly consuming the ammonia while the chlorine dissipates. 
       
      A sponge filter will not remove the ammoniUM immediately (not, "as it's released"), but once nitrifying bacteria populate the sponge, as a "cycle," it will remove it over a period of 24 hours.  As the converted ammonia (now, ammonium) is relatively harmless however -- it poses no problem for the fish as it's not toxic at this stage; the reason for using the Prime.  Don't mean to get long-winded, but I prefer you understand this whole process.
       
      Ray
          
       
      In a message dated 1/7/2015 7:09:24 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Morning everyone.
      I'm thinking about aging my tank water. I'm on city water so we have chlorine and chloramines.

      I've read that Prime and other treatments with bond the the two for about 24 hours then release the in the form of ammonia. Will a sponge filter remove the ammonia as its released ?
      Harry L.
      Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56417 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 1/7/2015
      Subject: Water test results for 55 gal and 10 gal
      75% of the water in the 10 gal was changed last night. The counts this morning are;
      Ph 7.6, Hph 8, ammonia 0, nitrites 0, nitrates 0, GH 8, KH 6

      The test results on the 55 gal are:
      Ph 7.6, Hph 8.2, ammonia .50, nitrites 5, nitrates 5, KH 6

      When I did the water tests I noticed that the tank needed topped off. I ended up adding 10 gal of water. I'm hoping the addition of the fresh water may jump start the the cycle so the nitrites get moving. I don't know how long it takes for fresh water to impact the overall properties, maybe it's not enough but i can re-check in 20 min(1110)

      If there aren't any significant changes I'm prepared to do the water change you recommend.

      Im an Amazon Prime member and part of the membership is the ability to subscribe and receive consumable items. Saves me from remembering to order. I rec'd A notice yesterday that they shipped it so I knew Safe start was coming. I LOVE amazon!! So convenient!!

      Sent from my iPhone
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56418 From: Harry Leverett Date: 1/7/2015
      Subject: Re: Aging water
      No , I miss spoke. According to the water report its just chloramine at a normal of 1.7 if I read it correctly

      Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID


      "SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Hi Harry,

        I age my tank water in a plastic 20 gallon food safe container-I set it in the bath just in case of any failures. I only have chlorine in my water so that will off-gas after 24 hours although I believe the chloramine stays bonded for weeks so you will have to use water conditioner to remove this from your water. Saying that I also use water conditioner to take care of anything else nasty in the water supply [have you seen the list of additives in domestic water supplies!!]. Another benefit of ageing your water-especially in Winter if you don't have a heated tank is that the water will get to room temperature after 24 hours so you don't need to artificially heat it up. I use a small pump in the bottom of the tub to keep the water turning over while it is ageing & then I connect the pump up to a hose to put the new water in my tank so I don't have to bother with the buckets.

      Just out of interest-I'm in the UK & typically regional water companies here add either chlorine OR chloramine to the water supply but not both-is it common in the States to add both then?

      Sorry, I don't have any knowledge of Prime or what it can & can't do with the ammonia as I've never used it.

        John<o)))<

      On 7 January 2015 at 12:08, Harry Leverett harryleverett60@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      Morning everyone.
      I'm thinking about aging my tank water. I'm on city water so we have chlorine and chloramines.

      I've read that Prime and other treatments with bond the the two for about 24 hours then release the in the form of ammonia. Will a sponge filter remove the ammonia as its released ?
      Harry L.
      Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID


      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56419 From: Harry Leverett Date: 1/7/2015
      Subject: Re: Aging water
      Thanks Ray, I've been using Prime for awhile and seems to work well. I was concerned about PH levels as water from the tap is about a point higher and wasn't sure the effect on the fish.
      Thanks for all the help
      Harry

      Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID


      "sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      G'Morning Harry,
       
      Not needing to add very much to John's excellent reply, I'll try to keep this short and to the point.  As for having both chlorine and chloramine added to your water, it appears you're under the wrong impression. While the minority of water companies may still add chlorine (only), those which have switched now aedd (only) chloramine as this is a compound of both chlorine and ammonia.  It would be redundant for water companies to add chlorine separately when they're already adding it as part of the chlorine.  As chloramine is more effective, this is one reason why most of the suppliers switched, not to mention it's a lot cheaper for them as they don't need to use nearly the amount of chlorine as they previously did.  To be clearer on the chlorine addition, and perhaps where you've received the information that both are added, in-plant they add ammonia to the water as a separate chemical and "upstream" from this they add the chlorine -- and they then both mix together and combine as the compound chloramine before (or "as") being pumped out of the their plant through the distribution pipes.  Well, I guess I couldn't make it very short < g >.
       
      Just as John said, you'll need to use a good water conditioner -- and one that treats for chloramine, not just for chlorine.  The Prime you asked about is exactly one of these dechloraminators.  Prime will also remove any heavy metals in your water supply.  What Prime does with chloramine is to break the bond between the chlorine and the ammonia.  While it detoxifies the relatively smaller amount of chlorine now released it also converts the free ammonia to relatively harmless ammonium, thereby effectively detoxifying the ammonia too.  Prime's action is instantaneous (not 24 hours).  Therefore you just add this water conditioner to your water as you're filling your tank back up right from your tap -- at the proper temperature.  There's no need to age your water (if you have chloramine), nor would that do any good, as getting back to what John said, a container of "aging" water can sit for weeks (MANY weeks, like perhaps 6 or so) before the bond between the ammonia and the chlorine starts to separate, and that's mainly due to bacteria slowly consuming the ammonia while the chlorine dissipates. 
       
      A sponge filter will not remove the ammoniUM immediately (not, "as it's released"), but once nitrifying bacteria populate the sponge, as a "cycle," it will remove it over a period of 24 hours.  As the converted ammonia (now, ammonium) is relatively harmless however -- it poses no problem for the fish as it's not toxic at this stage; the reason for using the Prime.  Don't mean to get long-winded, but I prefer you understand this whole process.
       
      Ray
          
       
      In a message dated 1/7/2015 7:09:24 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Morning everyone.
      I'm thinking about aging my tank water. I'm on city water so we have chlorine and chloramines.

      I've read that Prime and other treatments with bond the the two for about 24 hours then release the in the form of ammonia. Will a sponge filter remove the ammonia as its released ?
      Harry L.
      Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56420 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/7/2015
      Subject: Re: Water test results for 55 gal and 10 gal
      AOL Email
      Where is my reply from last night (sent well after midnight)?  I did ask that you always include my previous message with your posts.  Please do this from now on to make it easy to follow everything. 
       
      I like the numbers in the 10 gallon tank!  They couldn't be any better.  Even if more water was changed than needed to get these results, changing this much at this time assures that the organic wastes are all zero.  Excellent for the fish.  Just need to keep on top of this tank just as you're doing now.
       
      As for the 55 gallon, I had been afraid that the nitrite would still be up at 5.0.  Follow the instructions I sent you very early this morning for the PWC, to get rid of much of that nitrite -- a 40% PWC is called for -- and another similar one may be needed by tomorrow but I don't want to remove too much at this time as I still want to see the bacteria being fed a fair amount.  As for the ammonia, that the value dropped from 4.0 ppm last night down to 0.50 this morning shows that these Nitrosomonas are starting to do a decent job.  After doing this PWC, add just 1 teaspoon (not the 1/2 tsp I said last night) of ammonia back in (I'm going more slowly this time) and give the test results after 10 minutes; should be plenty of time to mix.  We may need to add more, but we'll do a little at a time this time around.

      That the ammonia DID drop from 4.0 to 0.50 without the nitrite going higher indicates that the Nitrobacters seem to have not been impacted too greatly and that they're still consuming this latest influx of ammonia -- although not at an acceptable pace yet, as the nitrate is not showing any increase.  I hope you're getting an accurate reading for the nitrite and that it isn't higher than we think because of more ammonia being converted.
       
      As usual, please give test results after the 40% PWC, for ammonia and nitrite.  No need for any other tests right now.  I'll check back ASAP.  Stand by to possibly add more ammonia.  BTW, I'm wasting more time than otherwise needed because I keep needing to refer back to my (and your's) previous message that I've Minimized, separately, instead of being able to see the previous message right here.  
       
      Yes, Amazon is quite reliable.  I've dealt with them occasionally and have never been disappointed.
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/7/2015 10:56:19 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      75% of the water in the 10 gal was changed last night. The counts this morning are;
      Ph 7.6, Hph 8, ammonia 0, nitrites 0, nitrates 0, GH 8, KH 6

      The test results on the 55 gal are:
      Ph 7.6, Hph 8.2, ammonia .50, nitrites 5, nitrates 5, KH 6

      When I did the water tests I noticed that the tank needed topped off. I ended up adding 10 gal of water. I'm hoping the addition of the fresh water may jump start the the cycle so the nitrites get moving. I don't know how long it takes for fresh water to impact the overall properties, maybe it's not enough but i can re-check in 20 min(1110)

      If there aren't any significant changes I'm prepared to do the water change you recommend.

      Im an Amazon Prime member and part of the membership is the ability to subscribe and receive consumable items. Saves me from remembering to order. I rec'd A notice yesterday that they shipped it so I knew Safe start was coming. I LOVE amazon!! So convenient!!

      Sent from my iPhone

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56421 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/7/2015
      Subject: Re: Aging water
      AOL Email
      Harry,  No big reason for concern if your tank water has a one point (meaning 0.1) lower pH than your tap water.  It's not going to affect your fish.  The process of nitrification naturally tends to act against the KH and lowers the pH a bit.  If this difference is ever any greater, a PWC will correct it, and should be done as it indicates it's more than time enough to make this water change.
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/7/2015 11:19:38 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Thanks Ray, I've been using Prime for awhile and seems to work well. I was concerned about PH levels as water from the tap is about a point higher and wasn't sure the effect on the fish.
      Thanks for all the help
      Harry

      Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID


      "sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      G'Morning Harry,
       
      Not needing to add very much to John's excellent reply, I'll try to keep this short and to the point.  As for having both chlorine and chloramine added to your water, it appears you're under the wrong impression. While the minority of water companies may still add chlorine (only), those which have switched now aedd (only) chloramine as this is a compound of both chlorine and ammonia.  It would be redundant for water companies to add chlorine separately when they're already adding it as part of the chlorine.  As chloramine is more effective, this is one reason why most of the suppliers switched, not to mention it's a lot cheaper for them as they don't need to use nearly the amount of chlorine as they previously did.  To be clearer on the chlorine addition, and perhaps where you've received the information that both are added, in-plant they add ammonia to the water as a separate chemical and "upstream" from this they add the chlorine -- and they then both mix together and combine as the compound chloramine before (or "as") being pumped out of the their plant through the distribution pipes.  Well, I guess I couldn't make it very short < g >.
       
      Just as John said, you'll need to use a good water conditioner -- and one that treats for chloramine, not just for chlorine.  The Prime you asked about is exactly one of these dechloraminators.  Prime will also remove any heavy metals in your water supply.  What Prime does with chloramine is to break the bond between the chlorine and the ammonia.  While it detoxifies the relatively smaller amount of chlorine now released it also converts the free ammonia to relatively harmless ammonium, thereby effectively detoxifying the ammonia too.  Prime's action is instantaneous (not 24 hours).  Therefore you just add this water conditioner to your water as you're filling your tank back up right from your tap -- at the proper temperature.  There's no need to age your water (if you have chloramine), nor would that do any good, as getting back to what John said, a container of "aging" water can sit for weeks (MANY weeks, like perhaps 6 or so) before the bond between the ammonia and the chlorine starts to separate, and that's mainly due to bacteria slowly consuming the ammonia while the chlorine dissipates. 
       
      A sponge filter will not remove the ammoniUM immediately (not, "as it's released"), but once nitrifying bacteria populate the sponge, as a "cycle," it will remove it over a period of 24 hours.  As the converted ammonia (now, ammonium) is relatively harmless however -- it poses no problem for the fish as it's not toxic at this stage; the reason for using the Prime.  Don't mean to get long-winded, but I prefer you understand this whole process.
       
      Ray
          
       
      In a message dated 1/7/2015 7:09:24 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Morning everyone.
      I'm thinking about aging my tank water. I'm on city water so we have chlorine and chloramines.

      I've read that Prime and other treatments with bond the the two for about 24 hours then release the in the form of ammonia. Will a sponge filter remove the ammonia as its released ?
      Harry L.
      Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56422 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 1/7/2015
      Subject: Re: Water test results for 55 gal and 10 gal
      Sorry I didn't reply using your mail from last night. Been a long night, one w/o sleep. 
      I'm on my way to the doctor so I won't be able to do water change until I get back. 
       Thank you Ray!!


      Sent from my iPhone

      On Jan 7, 2015, at 11:43 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Where is my reply from last night (sent well after midnight)?  I did ask that you always include my previous message with your posts.  Please do this from now on to make it easy to follow everything. 
       
      I like the numbers in the 10 gallon tank!  They couldn't be any better.  Even if more water was changed than needed to get these results, changing this much at this time assures that the organic wastes are all zero.  Excellent for the fish.  Just need to keep on top of this tank just as you're doing now.
       
      As for the 55 gallon, I had been afraid that the nitrite would still be up at 5.0.  Follow the instructions I sent you very early this morning for the PWC, to get rid of much of that nitrite -- a 40% PWC is called for -- and another similar one may be needed by tomorrow but I don't want to remove too much at this time as I still want to see the bacteria being fed a fair amount.  As for the ammonia, that the value dropped from 4.0 ppm last night down to 0.50 this morning shows that these Nitrosomonas are starting to do a decent job.  After doing this PWC, add just 1 teaspoon (not the 1/2 tsp I said last night) of ammonia back in (I'm going more slowly this time) and give the test results after 10 minutes; should be plenty of time to mix.  We may need to add more, but we'll do a little at a time this time around.

      That the ammonia DID drop from 4.0 to 0.50 without the nitrite going higher indicates that the Nitrobacters seem to have not been impacted too greatly and that they're still consuming this latest influx of ammonia -- although not at an acceptable pace yet, as the nitrate is not showing any increase.  I hope you're getting an accurate reading for the nitrite and that it isn't higher than we think because of more ammonia being converted.
       
      As usual, please give test results after the 40% PWC, for ammonia and nitrite.  No need for any other tests right now.  I'll check back ASAP.  Stand by to possibly add more ammonia.  BTW, I'm wasting more time than otherwise needed because I keep needing to refer back to my (and your's) previous message that I've Minimized, separately, instead of being able to see the previous message right here.  
       
      Yes, Amazon is quite reliable.  I've dealt with them occasionally and have never been disappointed.
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/7/2015 10:56:19 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      75% of the water in the 10 gal was changed last night. The counts this morning are;
      Ph 7.6, Hph 8, ammonia 0, nitrites 0, nitrates 0, GH 8, KH 6

      The test results on the 55 gal are:
      Ph 7.6, Hph 8.2, ammonia .50, nitrites 5, nitrates 5, KH 6

      When I did the water tests I noticed that the tank needed topped off. I ended up adding 10 gal of water. I'm hoping the addition of the fresh water may jump start the the cycle so the nitrites get moving. I don't know how long it takes for fresh water to impact the overall properties, maybe it's not enough but i can re-check in 20 min(1110)

      If there aren't any significant changes I'm prepared to do the water change you recommend.

      Im an Amazon Prime member and part of the membership is the ability to subscribe and receive consumable items. Saves me from remembering to order. I rec'd A notice yesterday that they shipped it so I knew Safe start was coming. I LOVE amazon!! So convenient!!

      Sent from my iPhone

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56423 From: Harry Leverett Date: 1/7/2015
      Subject: Re: Aging water
      Sounds good.
      Thank you Ray & John
      Harry

      Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID


      "sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Harry,  No big reason for concern if your tank water has a one point (meaning 0.1) lower pH than your tap water.  It's not going to affect your fish.  The process of nitrification naturally tends to act against the KH and lowers the pH a bit.  If this difference is ever any greater, a PWC will correct it, and should be done as it indicates it's more than time enough to make this water change.
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/7/2015 11:19:38 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Thanks Ray, I've been using Prime for awhile and seems to work well. I was concerned about PH levels as water from the tap is about a point higher and wasn't sure the effect on the fish.
      Thanks for all the help
      Harry

      Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID


      "sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      G'Morning Harry,
       
      Not needing to add very much to John's excellent reply, I'll try to keep this short and to the point.  As for having both chlorine and chloramine added to your water, it appears you're under the wrong impression. While the minority of water companies may still add chlorine (only), those which have switched now aedd (only) chloramine as this is a compound of both chlorine and ammonia.  It would be redundant for water companies to add chlorine separately when they're already adding it as part of the chlorine.  As chloramine is more effective, this is one reason why most of the suppliers switched, not to mention it's a lot cheaper for them as they don't need to use nearly the amount of chlorine as they previously did.  To be clearer on the chlorine addition, and perhaps where you've received the information that both are added, in-plant they add ammonia to the water as a separate chemical and "upstream" from this they add the chlorine -- and they then both mix together and combine as the compound chloramine before (or "as") being pumped out of the their plant through the distribution pipes.  Well, I guess I couldn't make it very short < g >.
       
      Just as John said, you'll need to use a good water conditioner -- and one that treats for chloramine, not just for chlorine.  The Prime you asked about is exactly one of these dechloraminators.  Prime will also remove any heavy metals in your water supply.  What Prime does with chloramine is to break the bond between the chlorine and the ammonia.  While it detoxifies the relatively smaller amount of chlorine now released it also converts the free ammonia to relatively harmless ammonium, thereby effectively detoxifying the ammonia too.  Prime's action is instantaneous (not 24 hours).  Therefore you just add this water conditioner to your water as you're filling your tank back up right from your tap -- at the proper temperature.  There's no need to age your water (if you have chloramine), nor would that do any good, as getting back to what John said, a container of "aging" water can sit for weeks (MANY weeks, like perhaps 6 or so) before the bond between the ammonia and the chlorine starts to separate, and that's mainly due to bacteria slowly consuming the ammonia while the chlorine dissipates. 
       
      A sponge filter will not remove the ammoniUM immediately (not, "as it's released"), but once nitrifying bacteria populate the sponge, as a "cycle," it will remove it over a period of 24 hours.  As the converted ammonia (now, ammonium) is relatively harmless however -- it poses no problem for the fish as it's not toxic at this stage; the reason for using the Prime.  Don't mean to get long-winded, but I prefer you understand this whole process.
       
      Ray
          
       
      In a message dated 1/7/2015 7:09:24 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Morning everyone.
      I'm thinking about aging my tank water. I'm on city water so we have chlorine and chloramines.

      I've read that Prime and other treatments with bond the the two for about 24 hours then release the in the form of ammonia. Will a sponge filter remove the ammonia as its released ?
      Harry L.
      Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56424 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/7/2015
      Subject: Re: Water test results for 55 gal and 10 gal
      AOL Email
      Peg,  Actually, it's no big thing.  Doesn't bother me but the extra time spent referring back to my message that I opened and minimized to have on hand (which I don't mind) delays the time when you get my reply, which I know you need sooner rather than later.  Other than that, it's not that I mind at all but it sets what you need to do back.  Hope things go well at the doctor.  Sorry to hear you had a bad night; hope you're feeling better.  If you're not up to doing the PWC today, since you probably received the Purigen from Amazon today too, just add two  and a half teaspoons of ammonia and use that Purigen to remove both the ammonia and the high nitrite until early tomorrow.  You'll need to jump on it tomorrow though to make tests and add some more ammonia back in after seeing what its number is. 
       
      Best wishes,
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/7/2015 12:17:06 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Sorry I didn't reply using your mail from last night. Been a long night, one w/o sleep. 
      I'm on my way to the doctor so I won't be able to do water change until I get back. 
       Thank you Ray!!


      Sent from my iPhone

      On Jan 7, 2015, at 11:43 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Where is my reply from last night (sent well after midnight)?  I did ask that you always include my previous message with your posts.  Please do this from now on to make it easy to follow everything. 
       
      I like the numbers in the 10 gallon tank!  They couldn't be any better.  Even if more water was changed than needed to get these results, changing this much at this time assures that the organic wastes are all zero.  Excellent for the fish.  Just need to keep on top of this tank just as you're doing now.
       
      As for the 55 gallon, I had been afraid that the nitrite would still be up at 5.0.  Follow the instructions I sent you very early this morning for the PWC, to get rid of much of that nitrite -- a 40% PWC is called for -- and another similar one may be needed by tomorrow but I don't want to remove too much at this time as I still want to see the bacteria being fed a fair amount.  As for the ammonia, that the value dropped from 4.0 ppm last night down to 0.50 this morning shows that these Nitrosomonas are starting to do a decent job.  After doing this PWC, add just 1 teaspoon (not the 1/2 tsp I said last night) of ammonia back in (I'm going more slowly this time) and give the test results after 10 minutes; should be plenty of time to mix.  We may need to add more, but we'll do a little at a time this time around.

      That the ammonia DID drop from 4.0 to 0.50 without the nitrite going higher indicates that the Nitrobacters seem to have not been impacted too greatly and that they're still consuming this latest influx of ammonia -- although not at an acceptable pace yet, as the nitrate is not showing any increase.  I hope you're getting an accurate reading for the nitrite and that it isn't higher than we think because of more ammonia being converted.
       
      As usual, please give test results after the 40% PWC, for ammonia and nitrite.  No need for any other tests right now.  I'll check back ASAP.  Stand by to possibly add more ammonia.  BTW, I'm wasting more time than otherwise needed because I keep needing to refer back to my (and your's) previous message that I've Minimized, separately, instead of being able to see the previous message right here.  
       
      Yes, Amazon is quite reliable.  I've dealt with them occasionally and have never been disappointed.
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/7/2015 10:56:19 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      75% of the water in the 10 gal was changed last night. The counts this morning are;
      Ph 7.6, Hph 8, ammonia 0, nitrites 0, nitrates 0, GH 8, KH 6

      The test results on the 55 gal are:
      Ph 7.6, Hph 8.2, ammonia .50, nitrites 5, nitrates 5, KH 6

      When I did the water tests I noticed that the tank needed topped off. I ended up adding 10 gal of water. I'm hoping the addition of the fresh water may jump start the the cycle so the nitrites get moving. I don't know how long it takes for fresh water to impact the overall properties, maybe it's not enough but i can re-check in 20 min(1110)

      If there aren't any significant changes I'm prepared to do the water change you recommend.

      Im an Amazon Prime member and part of the membership is the ability to subscribe and receive consumable items. Saves me from remembering to order. I rec'd A notice yesterday that they shipped it so I knew Safe start was coming. I LOVE amazon!! So convenient!!

      Sent from my iPhone

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56425 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 1/7/2015
      Subject: Re: 2nd round Updated Numbers 55 Gal snd 10 Gal 1/6/15u
      I competed the 40% water change and have added a bottle Safes Start Plus( which incidentally does contain proprietary strains of nitrosomonas, nitrosospira, and nitrospira). 
      In this email you told me to add 1/2 tsp ammonia but this directjve was prior to   today showed only .50 of ammonia.  Do you want to stick with that 1/2 tsp?  Another thing, I put that Safe Start in there and it's mixing in. What happens when the ammonia goes in? Does it kill the bacteria?? I'm thinking like a mom I guess  because my logic is that ammonia = dead bacteria. Also, do you want me to replace the salt??

      Sent from my iPhone

      On Jan 7, 2015, at 2:28 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Yes, looks like you have your understanding of the nitrogen cycle right, and when I say "organic waste," I'm mainly referring to fish waste but it would include anything organic that's being oxidized.  The ammonia is broken down by several genera of bacteria and the nitrite in turn is also broken down by several other genera of bacteria. 
       
      Yes, the high nitrite value indicates there's not enough of the bacteria yet available that converts this to nitrate.  As nitrite is even more toxic than ammonia -- even to nitrifying bacteria -- a high level of nitrite will start killing off these bacteria and that's what causes the stall.  The cycle can't proceed again until the nitrite is brought back down, and even then, the bacteria populations must now get back up there were they once were before the die-off to be able to process the waste effectively again.  So, it's not just a stall at a certain level where it can proceed from again, but the cycle would have actually gone backward from having a partial die-off and now needs to get re-established again up to its previous level to continue -- not saying that this happened yet here but it could be a possibility.
       
      I was going to wait until the morning to see where the numbers are and go from there.  As it is now, at this time of night, it looks like this is the only course at this time anyway.  One course of action would be to do a PWC to physically lower the nitrite, which is what I expect will be needed and most useful -- just as you're thinking of.  Beneficial Bacteria (BB?) is mostly in the filter.  It's also on all other surfaces inside of the aquarium, including on the substrate, glass, rocks, ornaments, filter tubes, heater, plants (live or artificial), etc.,  but not necessarily any more on one surface than another.  Adding more good bacteria would surely help, but I'm not understanding why if you spent money on 2 large bottles of Safe Start, why you didn't just spend it on Dr. Tim's One & Only and be done with cycling.  You added Safe Start at the beginning of this cycling process yet it would seem to appear that it hasn't done anything in adding live bacteria capable of breaking down this organic waste.  I do need to question whether Safe Start contains live nitrifying bacteria.mhoving only one of these.  Best course of action if the nitrite is still up at 5.0 ppm, which I suspect, is to do a 40% PWC, which should remove 2.0 ppm dropping the level to 3.0 ppm.  If the nitrite has increased overnight, then a larger PWC is called for.  Trusting that fresh Safe Start might be more effective in containing live bacteria, add this to the water after the PWC.  As a 40% PWC will reduce the ammonia level from 4.0 ppm down to 2.4 ppm, you'll need to add a small amount of ammonia back in; 1/2 teaspoon for the tank would be the way to start, with testing it again after 20 minutes.  Can't expect everything to go smooth all the time.  BTW, if you haven't done so already, raise the temperature.
       
      Ray 
       
       
       
      In a message dated 1/7/2015 12:30:23 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      I'm trying to understand the nitrogen cycle....humor me but please correct me where I'm wrong...... 
      Fish in --> Ammonia is created by fish, waste, leftover foodstuff etc... --> ammonia being broken down turns into nitrites-->beneficial bacteria turns the nitrites into nitrates> 

      Is the high nitrite count indicating that there isn't enough beneficial bacteria to keep up with the conversion from nitrite to nitrate? Would it "stall" because it kind of burns itself out, kinda spinning its wheels unable to get traction to go forward? 

      Would it help to 
      a) do a small water change to get rid of some of the ammonia, nitrites and nitrates so the bacteria can catch up (BB is mostly in the filter snd substrate right?)
      OR 
      b) add more good bacteria (Safe Start) that would jump in, hopefully flood the nitrites sitting around waiting to be converted? 

      I have an Amazon delivery coming tomorrow which includes 2 lg bottles of Safe Start and the Purigen. 
      I know you told me that Purigen removes ammonia, nitrites and nitrates. Is there a way to manipulate the Purigen where It only depletes the nitrites? 

      Peg
      Soon Opening: Hoopin' It Up Designs
                                Custom Embroidery & Embellishments

      On Jan 6, 2015, at 6:38 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Nope, I was aiming for an ammonia level of 3.0 ppm, so that the nitrite wouldn't rise any further and would drop slightly.  One teaspoon of ammonia raised the level by 1.0 ppm yesterday; didn't work that way today!  Too high of a nitrite level can stall the cycle.  The pH and KH are fine though.  We'll see what things looks like tomorrow, but with 4.0 ppm ammonia the nitrite will probably rise.  . 
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/6/2015 6:29:49 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@... writes:
       

      Ok, after round 2 w/ 1 add'l tsp ammonia and 1 add'l tsp buffer
      Ph 7.6, Hph 8.2, Ammonia 4, Nitrites 5, Nitrates 20, KH 6

      I hope these numbers are a little closer to what you expected!
      Thanks Ray

       

       
       



       
       



       
       


      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56426 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/7/2015
      Subject: Re: 2nd round Updated Numbers 55 Gal snd 10 Gal 1/6/15u
      AOL Email
      Hi Peg,
       
      Looks like you missed my last message; hope you're feeling better.
       
      Please let me know what the numbers are for the ammonia and the nitrite first before you do anything else.
       
      No, the ammonia won't kill the bacteria.  You do not need any salt for cycling the tank, so don't even be concerned about it. 
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/7/2015 6:23:08 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      I competed the 40% water change and have added a bottle Safes Start Plus( which incidentally does contain proprietary strains of nitrosomonas, nitrosospira, and nitrospira). 
      In this email you told me to add 1/2 tsp ammonia but this directjve was prior to   today showed only .50 of ammonia.  Do you want to stick with that 1/2 tsp?  Another thing, I put that Safe Start in there and it's mixing in. What happens when the ammonia goes in? Does it kill the bacteria?? I'm thinking like a mom I guess  because my logic is that ammonia = dead bacteria. Also, do you want me to replace the salt??

      Sent from my iPhone

      On Jan 7, 2015, at 2:28 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Yes, looks like you have your understanding of the nitrogen cycle right, and when I say "organic waste," I'm mainly referring to fish waste but it would include anything organic that's being oxidized.  The ammonia is broken down by several genera of bacteria and the nitrite in turn is also broken down by several other genera of bacteria. 
       
      Yes, the high nitrite value indicates there's not enough of the bacteria yet available that converts this to nitrate.  As nitrite is even more toxic than ammonia -- even to nitrifying bacteria -- a high level of nitrite will start killing off these bacteria and that's what causes the stall.  The cycle can't proceed again until the nitrite is brought back down, and even then, the bacteria populations must now get back up there were they once were before the die-off to be able to process the waste effectively again.  So, it's not just a stall at a certain level where it can proceed from again, but the cycle would have actually gone backward from having a partial die-off and now needs to get re-established again up to its previous level to continue -- not saying that this happened yet here but it could be a possibility.
       
      I was going to wait until the morning to see where the numbers are and go from there.  As it is now, at this time of night, it looks like this is the only course at this time anyway.  One course of action would be to do a PWC to physically lower the nitrite, which is what I expect will be needed and most useful -- just as you're thinking of.  Beneficial Bacteria (BB?) is mostly in the filter.  It's also on all other surfaces inside of the aquarium, including on the substrate, glass, rocks, ornaments, filter tubes, heater, plants (live or artificial), etc.,  but not necessarily any more on one surface than another.  Adding more good bacteria would surely help, but I'm not understanding why if you spent money on 2 large bottles of Safe Start, why you didn't just spend it on Dr. Tim's One & Only and be done with cycling.  You added Safe Start at the beginning of this cycling process yet it would seem to appear that it hasn't done anything in adding live bacteria capable of breaking down this organic waste.  I do need to question whether Safe Start contains live nitrifying bacteria.mhoving only one of these.  Best course of action if the nitrite is still up at 5.0 ppm, which I suspect, is to do a 40% PWC, which should remove 2.0 ppm dropping the level to 3.0 ppm.  If the nitrite has increased overnight, then a larger PWC is called for.  Trusting that fresh Safe Start might be more effective in containing live bacteria, add this to the water after the PWC.  As a 40% PWC will reduce the ammonia level from 4.0 ppm down to 2.4 ppm, you'll need to add a small amount of ammonia back in; 1/2 teaspoon for the tank would be the way to start, with testing it again after 20 minutes.  Can't expect everything to go smooth all the time.  BTW, if you haven't done so already, raise the temperature.
       
      Ray 
       
       
       
      In a message dated 1/7/2015 12:30:23 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      I'm trying to understand the nitrogen cycle....humor me but please correct me where I'm wrong...... 
      Fish in --> Ammonia is created by fish, waste, leftover foodstuff etc... --> ammonia being broken down turns into nitrites-->beneficial bacteria turns the nitrites into nitrates> 

      Is the high nitrite count indicating that there isn't enough beneficial bacteria to keep up with the conversion from nitrite to nitrate? Would it "stall" because it kind of burns itself out, kinda spinning its wheels unable to get traction to go forward? 

      Would it help to 
      a) do a small water change to get rid of some of the ammonia, nitrites and nitrates so the bacteria can catch up (BB is mostly in the filter snd substrate right?)
      OR 
      b) add more good bacteria (Safe Start) that would jump in, hopefully flood the nitrites sitting around waiting to be converted? 

      I have an Amazon delivery coming tomorrow which includes 2 lg bottles of Safe Start and the Purigen. 
      I know you told me that Purigen removes ammonia, nitrites and nitrates. Is there a way to manipulate the Purigen where It only depletes the nitrites? 

      Peg
      Soon Opening: Hoopin' It Up Designs
                                Custom Embroidery & Embellishments

      On Jan 6, 2015, at 6:38 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Nope, I was aiming for an ammonia level of 3.0 ppm, so that the nitrite wouldn't rise any further and would drop slightly.  One teaspoon of ammonia raised the level by 1.0 ppm yesterday; didn't work that way today!  Too high of a nitrite level can stall the cycle.  The pH and KH are fine though.  We'll see what things looks like tomorrow, but with 4.0 ppm ammonia the nitrite will probably rise.  . 
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/6/2015 6:29:49 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@... writes:
       

      Ok, after round 2 w/ 1 add'l tsp ammonia and 1 add'l tsp buffer
      Ph 7.6, Hph 8.2, Ammonia 4, Nitrites 5, Nitrates 20, KH 6

      I hope these numbers are a little closer to what you expected!
      Thanks Ray

       

       
       



       
       



       
       


      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56427 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 1/7/2015
      Subject: Re: 2nd round Updated Numbers 55 Gal snd 10 Gal 1/6/15u
       I used the Aquavac today! That thing is awesome. To get the 55 gal drained (and then refilled took. Less than 20 min!! It was great!!

      The ammonia is now 0 and Nitrites are 2. 

      😔

      Sent from my iPhone

      On Jan 7, 2015, at 6:28 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Hi Peg,
       
      Looks like you missed my last message; hope you're feeling better.
       
      Please let me know what the numbers are for the ammonia and the nitrite first before you do anything else.
       
      No, the ammonia won't kill the bacteria.  You do not need any salt for cycling the tank, so don't even be concerned about it. 
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/7/2015 6:23:08 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      I competed the 40% water change and have added a bottle Safes Start Plus( which incidentally does contain proprietary strains of nitrosomonas, nitrosospira, and nitrospira). 
      In this email you told me to add 1/2 tsp ammonia but this directjve was prior to   today showed only .50 of ammonia.  Do you want to stick with that 1/2 tsp?  Another thing, I put that Safe Start in there and it's mixing in. What happens when the ammonia goes in? Does it kill the bacteria?? I'm thinking like a mom I guess  because my logic is that ammonia = dead bacteria. Also, do you want me to replace the salt??

      Sent from my iPhone

      On Jan 7, 2015, at 2:28 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Yes, looks like you have your understanding of the nitrogen cycle right, and when I say "organic waste," I'm mainly referring to fish waste but it would include anything organic that's being oxidized.  The ammonia is broken down by several genera of bacteria and the nitrite in turn is also broken down by several other genera of bacteria. 
       
      Yes, the high nitrite value indicates there's not enough of the bacteria yet available that converts this to nitrate.  As nitrite is even more toxic than ammonia -- even to nitrifying bacteria -- a high level of nitrite will start killing off these bacteria and that's what causes the stall.  The cycle can't proceed again until the nitrite is brought back down, and even then, the bacteria populations must now get back up there were they once were before the die-off to be able to process the waste effectively again.  So, it's not just a stall at a certain level where it can proceed from again, but the cycle would have actually gone backward from having a partial die-off and now needs to get re-established again up to its previous level to continue -- not saying that this happened yet here but it could be a possibility.
       
      I was going to wait until the morning to see where the numbers are and go from there.  As it is now, at this time of night, it looks like this is the only course at this time anyway.  One course of action would be to do a PWC to physically lower the nitrite, which is what I expect will be needed and most useful -- just as you're thinking of.  Beneficial Bacteria (BB?) is mostly in the filter.  It's also on all other surfaces inside of the aquarium, including on the substrate, glass, rocks, ornaments, filter tubes, heater, plants (live or artificial), etc.,  but not necessarily any more on one surface than another.  Adding more good bacteria would surely help, but I'm not understanding why if you spent money on 2 large bottles of Safe Start, why you didn't just spend it on Dr. Tim's One & Only and be done with cycling.  You added Safe Start at the beginning of this cycling process yet it would seem to appear that it hasn't done anything in adding live bacteria capable of breaking down this organic waste.  I do need to question whether Safe Start contains live nitrifying bacteria.mhoving only one of these.  Best course of action if the nitrite is still up at 5.0 ppm, which I suspect, is to do a 40% PWC, which should remove 2.0 ppm dropping the level to 3.0 ppm.  If the nitrite has increased overnight, then a larger PWC is called for.  Trusting that fresh Safe Start might be more effective in containing live bacteria, add this to the water after the PWC.  As a 40% PWC will reduce the ammonia level from 4.0 ppm down to 2.4 ppm, you'll need to add a small amount of ammonia back in; 1/2 teaspoon for the tank would be the way to start, with testing it again after 20 minutes.  Can't expect everything to go smooth all the time.  BTW, if you haven't done so already, raise the temperature.
       
      Ray 
       
       
       
      In a message dated 1/7/2015 12:30:23 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      I'm trying to understand the nitrogen cycle....humor me but please correct me where I'm wrong...... 
      Fish in --> Ammonia is created by fish, waste, leftover foodstuff etc... --> ammonia being broken down turns into nitrites-->beneficial bacteria turns the nitrites into nitrates> 

      Is the high nitrite count indicating that there isn't enough beneficial bacteria to keep up with the conversion from nitrite to nitrate? Would it "stall" because it kind of burns itself out, kinda spinning its wheels unable to get traction to go forward? 

      Would it help to 
      a) do a small water change to get rid of some of the ammonia, nitrites and nitrates so the bacteria can catch up (BB is mostly in the filter snd substrate right?)
      OR 
      b) add more good bacteria (Safe Start) that would jump in, hopefully flood the nitrites sitting around waiting to be converted? 

      I have an Amazon delivery coming tomorrow which includes 2 lg bottles of Safe Start and the Purigen. 
      I know you told me that Purigen removes ammonia, nitrites and nitrates. Is there a way to manipulate the Purigen where It only depletes the nitrites? 

      Peg
      Soon Opening: Hoopin' It Up Designs
                                Custom Embroidery & Embellishments

      On Jan 6, 2015, at 6:38 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Nope, I was aiming for an ammonia level of 3.0 ppm, so that the nitrite wouldn't rise any further and would drop slightly.  One teaspoon of ammonia raised the level by 1.0 ppm yesterday; didn't work that way today!  Too high of a nitrite level can stall the cycle.  The pH and KH are fine though.  We'll see what things looks like tomorrow, but with 4.0 ppm ammonia the nitrite will probably rise.  . 
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/6/2015 6:29:49 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@... writes:
       

      Ok, after round 2 w/ 1 add'l tsp ammonia and 1 add'l tsp buffer
      Ph 7.6, Hph 8.2, Ammonia 4, Nitrites 5, Nitrates 20, KH 6

      I hope these numbers are a little closer to what you expected!
      Thanks Ray

       

       
       



       
       



       
       


      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56428 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 1/7/2015
      Subject: Re: Water test results for 55 gal and 10 gal
      No Ray... I really didn't mean to alleviate the email you sent.
      I'm not trying to make things difficult and I know you're talking to and helping
      otters and to have to go back and forth referencing emails is a pain. I appreciate it's your help so I need to pay more attention to what you ask. 

      I'm a little confused about the Purigen. I didn't think we were going to use it in the 55 gallon l because it strips out the ammonia etc... 





      Sent from my iPhone

      On Jan 7, 2015, at 4:58 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Peg,  Actually, it's no big thing.  Doesn't bother me but the extra time spent referring back to my message that I opened and minimized to have on hand (which I don't mind) delays the time when you get my reply, which I know you need sooner rather than later.  Other than that, it's not that I mind at all but it sets what you need to do back.  Hope things go well at the doctor.  Sorry to hear you had a bad night; hope you're feeling better.  If you're not up to doing the PWC today, since you probably received the Purigen from Amazon today too, just add two  and a half teaspoons of ammonia and use that Purigen to remove both the ammonia and the high nitrite until early tomorrow.  You'll need to jump on it tomorrow though to make tests and add some more ammonia back in after seeing what its number is. 
       
      Best wishes,
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/7/2015 12:17:06 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Sorry I didn't reply using your mail from last night. Been a long night, one w/o sleep. 
      I'm on my way to the doctor so I won't be able to do water change until I get back. 
       Thank you Ray!!


      Sent from my iPhone

      On Jan 7, 2015, at 11:43 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Where is my reply from last night (sent well after midnight)?  I did ask that you always include my previous message with your posts.  Please do this from now on to make it easy to follow everything. 
       
      I like the numbers in the 10 gallon tank!  They couldn't be any better.  Even if more water was changed than needed to get these results, changing this much at this time assures that the organic wastes are all zero.  Excellent for the fish.  Just need to keep on top of this tank just as you're doing now.
       
      As for the 55 gallon, I had been afraid that the nitrite would still be up at 5.0.  Follow the instructions I sent you very early this morning for the PWC, to get rid of much of that nitrite -- a 40% PWC is called for -- and another similar one may be needed by tomorrow but I don't want to remove too much at this time as I still want to see the bacteria being fed a fair amount.  As for the ammonia, that the value dropped from 4.0 ppm last night down to 0.50 this morning shows that these Nitrosomonas are starting to do a decent job.  After doing this PWC, add just 1 teaspoon (not the 1/2 tsp I said last night) of ammonia back in (I'm going more slowly this time) and give the test results after 10 minutes; should be plenty of time to mix.  We may need to add more, but we'll do a little at a time this time around.

      That the ammonia DID drop from 4.0 to 0.50 without the nitrite going higher indicates that the Nitrobacters seem to have not been impacted too greatly and that they're still consuming this latest influx of ammonia -- although not at an acceptable pace yet, as the nitrate is not showing any increase.  I hope you're getting an accurate reading for the nitrite and that it isn't higher than we think because of more ammonia being converted.
       
      As usual, please give test results after the 40% PWC, for ammonia and nitrite.  No need for any other tests right now.  I'll check back ASAP.  Stand by to possibly add more ammonia.  BTW, I'm wasting more time than otherwise needed because I keep needing to refer back to my (and your's) previous message that I've Minimized, separately, instead of being able to see the previous message right here.  
       
      Yes, Amazon is quite reliable.  I've dealt with them occasionally and have never been disappointed.
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/7/2015 10:56:19 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      75% of the water in the 10 gal was changed last night. The counts this morning are;
      Ph 7.6, Hph 8, ammonia 0, nitrites 0, nitrates 0, GH 8, KH 6

      The test results on the 55 gal are:
      Ph 7.6, Hph 8.2, ammonia .50, nitrites 5, nitrates 5, KH 6

      When I did the water tests I noticed that the tank needed topped off. I ended up adding 10 gal of water. I'm hoping the addition of the fresh water may jump start the the cycle so the nitrites get moving. I don't know how long it takes for fresh water to impact the overall properties, maybe it's not enough but i can re-check in 20 min(1110)

      If there aren't any significant changes I'm prepared to do the water change you recommend.

      Im an Amazon Prime member and part of the membership is the ability to subscribe and receive consumable items. Saves me from remembering to order. I rec'd A notice yesterday that they shipped it so I knew Safe start was coming. I LOVE amazon!! So convenient!!

      Sent from my iPhone

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56429 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/7/2015
      Subject: Re: Water test results for 55 gal and 10 gal
      AOL Email
      Peg,
       
      I'm starting here as I want to tell you that the plan for the Purigen to use on the 55 was only if you weren't up to doing a PWC.  Didn't know how you were feeling after comig home from the doctor's office.
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/7/2015 8:09:07 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      No Ray... I really didn't mean to alleviate the email you sent.
      I'm not trying to make things difficult and I know you're talking to and helping
      otters and to have to go back and forth referencing emails is a pain. I appreciate it's your help so I need to pay more attention to what you ask. 

      I'm a little confused about the Purigen. I didn't think we were going to use it in the 55 gallon l because it strips out the ammonia etc... 





      Sent from my iPhone

      On Jan 7, 2015, at 4:58 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Peg,  Actually, it's no big thing.  Doesn't bother me but the extra time spent referring back to my message that I opened and minimized to have on hand (which I don't mind) delays the time when you get my reply, which I know you need sooner rather than later.  Other than that, it's not that I mind at all but it sets what you need to do back.  Hope things go well at the doctor.  Sorry to hear you had a bad night; hope you're feeling better.  If you're not up to doing the PWC today, since you probably received the Purigen from Amazon today too, just add two  and a half teaspoons of ammonia and use that Purigen to remove both the ammonia and the high nitrite until early tomorrow.  You'll need to jump on it tomorrow though to make tests and add some more ammonia back in after seeing what its number is. 
       
      Best wishes,
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/7/2015 12:17:06 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Sorry I didn't reply using your mail from last night. Been a long night, one w/o sleep. 
      I'm on my way to the doctor so I won't be able to do water change until I get back. 
       Thank you Ray!!


      Sent from my iPhone

      On Jan 7, 2015, at 11:43 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Where is my reply from last night (sent well after midnight)?  I did ask that you always include my previous message with your posts.  Please do this from now on to make it easy to follow everything. 
       
      I like the numbers in the 10 gallon tank!  They couldn't be any better.  Even if more water was changed than needed to get these results, changing this much at this time assures that the organic wastes are all zero.  Excellent for the fish.  Just need to keep on top of this tank just as you're doing now.
       
      As for the 55 gallon, I had been afraid that the nitrite would still be up at 5.0.  Follow the instructions I sent you very early this morning for the PWC, to get rid of much of that nitrite -- a 40% PWC is called for -- and another similar one may be needed by tomorrow but I don't want to remove too much at this time as I still want to see the bacteria being fed a fair amount.  As for the ammonia, that the value dropped from 4.0 ppm last night down to 0.50 this morning shows that these Nitrosomonas are starting to do a decent job.  After doing this PWC, add just 1 teaspoon (not the 1/2 tsp I said last night) of ammonia back in (I'm going more slowly this time) and give the test results after 10 minutes; should be plenty of time to mix.  We may need to add more, but we'll do a little at a time this time around.

      That the ammonia DID drop from 4.0 to 0.50 without the nitrite going higher indicates that the Nitrobacters seem to have not been impacted too greatly and that they're still consuming this latest influx of ammonia -- although not at an acceptable pace yet, as the nitrate is not showing any increase.  I hope you're getting an accurate reading for the nitrite and that it isn't higher than we think because of more ammonia being converted.
       
      As usual, please give test results after the 40% PWC, for ammonia and nitrite.  No need for any other tests right now.  I'll check back ASAP.  Stand by to possibly add more ammonia.  BTW, I'm wasting more time than otherwise needed because I keep needing to refer back to my (and your's) previous message that I've Minimized, separately, instead of being able to see the previous message right here.  
       
      Yes, Amazon is quite reliable.  I've dealt with them occasionally and have never been disappointed.
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/7/2015 10:56:19 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      75% of the water in the 10 gal was changed last night. The counts this morning are;
      Ph 7.6, Hph 8, ammonia 0, nitrites 0, nitrates 0, GH 8, KH 6

      The test results on the 55 gal are:
      Ph 7.6, Hph 8.2, ammonia .50, nitrites 5, nitrates 5, KH 6

      When I did the water tests I noticed that the tank needed topped off. I ended up adding 10 gal of water. I'm hoping the addition of the fresh water may jump start the the cycle so the nitrites get moving. I don't know how long it takes for fresh water to impact the overall properties, maybe it's not enough but i can re-check in 20 min(1110)

      If there aren't any significant changes I'm prepared to do the water change you recommend.

      Im an Amazon Prime member and part of the membership is the ability to subscribe and receive consumable items. Saves me from remembering to order. I rec'd A notice yesterday that they shipped it so I knew Safe start was coming. I LOVE amazon!! So convenient!!

      Sent from my iPhone

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56430 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/7/2015
      Subject: Re: 2nd round Updated Numbers 55 Gal snd 10 Gal 1/6/15u
      AOL Email
      I would have to guess that the Aquavac might be just a little easier than carrying buckets < g >.  Okay, that's where we want the nitrite. Actually, it's a little lower than the math shows it to work out to, but that's okay; it will probably be up again soon, and probably by too much -- necessitating another PWC.  So, with the ammonia down to zero, add 2 teaspoons of ammonia.  Take a test for ammonia after about 10 minutes.  If it's at 2.0 ppm, add 1/2 teaspoon more and test again after 10 minutes.  We may add another 1/2 teaspoon, depending on the results.  If it's above 2.0 the first time and up instead to 3.0 ppm, then just add 1/2 teaspoon and re-test (after 10 minutes).  If any questions, please let me know.
       
      Ray
         
       
      In a message dated 1/7/2015 8:07:55 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

       I used the Aquavac today! That thing is awesome. To get the 55 gal drained (and then refilled took. Less than 20 min!! It was great!!

      The ammonia is now 0 and Nitrites are 2. 

      😔

      Sent from my iPhone

      On Jan 7, 2015, at 6:28 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Hi Peg,
       
      Looks like you missed my last message; hope you're feeling better.
       
      Please let me know what the numbers are for the ammonia and the nitrite first before you do anything else.
       
      No, the ammonia won't kill the bacteria.  You do not need any salt for cycling the tank, so don't even be concerned about it. 
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/7/2015 6:23:08 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      I competed the 40% water change and have added a bottle Safes Start Plus( which incidentally does contain proprietary strains of nitrosomonas, nitrosospira, and nitrospira). 
      In this email you told me to add 1/2 tsp ammonia but this directjve was prior to   today showed only .50 of ammonia.  Do you want to stick with that 1/2 tsp?  Another thing, I put that Safe Start in there and it's mixing in. What happens when the ammonia goes in? Does it kill the bacteria?? I'm thinking like a mom I guess  because my logic is that ammonia = dead bacteria. Also, do you want me to replace the salt??

      Sent from my iPhone

      On Jan 7, 2015, at 2:28 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Yes, looks like you have your understanding of the nitrogen cycle right, and when I say "organic waste," I'm mainly referring to fish waste but it would include anything organic that's being oxidized.  The ammonia is broken down by several genera of bacteria and the nitrite in turn is also broken down by several other genera of bacteria. 
       
      Yes, the high nitrite value indicates there's not enough of the bacteria yet available that converts this to nitrate.  As nitrite is even more toxic than ammonia -- even to nitrifying bacteria -- a high level of nitrite will start killing off these bacteria and that's what causes the stall.  The cycle can't proceed again until the nitrite is brought back down, and even then, the bacteria populations must now get back up there were they once were before the die-off to be able to process the waste effectively again.  So, it's not just a stall at a certain level where it can proceed from again, but the cycle would have actually gone backward from having a partial die-off and now needs to get re-established again up to its previous level to continue -- not saying that this happened yet here but it could be a possibility.
       
      I was going to wait until the morning to see where the numbers are and go from there.  As it is now, at this time of night, it looks like this is the only course at this time anyway.  One course of action would be to do a PWC to physically lower the nitrite, which is what I expect will be needed and most useful -- just as you're thinking of.  Beneficial Bacteria (BB?) is mostly in the filter.  It's also on all other surfaces inside of the aquarium, including on the substrate, glass, rocks, ornaments, filter tubes, heater, plants (live or artificial), etc.,  but not necessarily any more on one surface than another.  Adding more good bacteria would surely help, but I'm not understanding why if you spent money on 2 large bottles of Safe Start, why you didn't just spend it on Dr. Tim's One & Only and be done with cycling.  You added Safe Start at the beginning of this cycling process yet it would seem to appear that it hasn't done anything in adding live bacteria capable of breaking down this organic waste.  I do need to question whether Safe Start contains live nitrifying bacteria.mhoving only one of these.  Best course of action if the nitrite is still up at 5.0 ppm, which I suspect, is to do a 40% PWC, which should remove 2.0 ppm dropping the level to 3.0 ppm.  If the nitrite has increased overnight, then a larger PWC is called for.  Trusting that fresh Safe Start might be more effective in containing live bacteria, add this to the water after the PWC.  As a 40% PWC will reduce the ammonia level from 4.0 ppm down to 2.4 ppm, you'll need to add a small amount of ammonia back in; 1/2 teaspoon for the tank would be the way to start, with testing it again after 20 minutes.  Can't expect everything to go smooth all the time.  BTW, if you haven't done so already, raise the temperature.
       
      Ray 
       
       
       
      In a message dated 1/7/2015 12:30:23 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      I'm trying to understand the nitrogen cycle....humor me but please correct me where I'm wrong...... 
      Fish in --> Ammonia is created by fish, waste, leftover foodstuff etc... --> ammonia being broken down turns into nitrites-->beneficial bacteria turns the nitrites into nitrates> 

      Is the high nitrite count indicating that there isn't enough beneficial bacteria to keep up with the conversion from nitrite to nitrate? Would it "stall" because it kind of burns itself out, kinda spinning its wheels unable to get traction to go forward? 

      Would it help to 
      a) do a small water change to get rid of some of the ammonia, nitrites and nitrates so the bacteria can catch up (BB is mostly in the filter snd substrate right?)
      OR 
      b) add more good bacteria (Safe Start) that would jump in, hopefully flood the nitrites sitting around waiting to be converted? 

      I have an Amazon delivery coming tomorrow which includes 2 lg bottles of Safe Start and the Purigen. 
      I know you told me that Purigen removes ammonia, nitrites and nitrates. Is there a way to manipulate the Purigen where It only depletes the nitrites? 

      Peg
      Soon Opening: Hoopin' It Up Designs
                                Custom Embroidery & Embellishments

      On Jan 6, 2015, at 6:38 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Nope, I was aiming for an ammonia level of 3.0 ppm, so that the nitrite wouldn't rise any further and would drop slightly.  One teaspoon of ammonia raised the level by 1.0 ppm yesterday; didn't work that way today!  Too high of a nitrite level can stall the cycle.  The pH and KH are fine though.  We'll see what things looks like tomorrow, but with 4.0 ppm ammonia the nitrite will probably rise.  . 
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/6/2015 6:29:49 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@... writes:
       

      Ok, after round 2 w/ 1 add'l tsp ammonia and 1 add'l tsp buffer
      Ph 7.6, Hph 8.2, Ammonia 4, Nitrites 5, Nitrates 20, KH 6

      I hope these numbers are a little closer to what you expected!
      Thanks Ray

       

       
       



       
       



       
       


      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56431 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 1/7/2015
      Subject: Re: Water test results for 55 gal and 10 gal
      Ahh, you're so nice. Well thank you for being so considerate. I'm fine. I just don't sleep and it catches up with me. When I say "I don't sleep" I mean for like days... I can and go 4-5 nights straight without sleeping. It wreaks havoc on the body. Eventually you just start feeling like a zombie. 
      I also ABHOR this cold weather! I'm anemic on top old all my old lady 
      Ailments and not having any iron really stinks!
      Sent from my iPhone

      On Jan 7, 2015, at 8:11 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Peg,
       
      I'm starting here as I want to tell you that the plan for the Purigen to use on the 55 was only if you weren't up to doing a PWC.  Didn't know how you were feeling after comig home from the doctor's office.
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/7/2015 8:09:07 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      No Ray... I really didn't mean to alleviate the email you sent.
      I'm not trying to make things difficult and I know you're talking to and helping
      otters and to have to go back and forth referencing emails is a pain. I appreciate it's your help so I need to pay more attention to what you ask. 

      I'm a little confused about the Purigen. I didn't think we were going to use it in the 55 gallon l because it strips out the ammonia etc... 





      Sent from my iPhone

      On Jan 7, 2015, at 4:58 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Peg,  Actually, it's no big thing.  Doesn't bother me but the extra time spent referring back to my message that I opened and minimized to have on hand (which I don't mind) delays the time when you get my reply, which I know you need sooner rather than later.  Other than that, it's not that I mind at all but it sets what you need to do back.  Hope things go well at the doctor.  Sorry to hear you had a bad night; hope you're feeling better.  If you're not up to doing the PWC today, since you probably received the Purigen from Amazon today too, just add two  and a half teaspoons of ammonia and use that Purigen to remove both the ammonia and the high nitrite until early tomorrow.  You'll need to jump on it tomorrow though to make tests and add some more ammonia back in after seeing what its number is. 
       
      Best wishes,
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/7/2015 12:17:06 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Sorry I didn't reply using your mail from last night. Been a long night, one w/o sleep. 
      I'm on my way to the doctor so I won't be able to do water change until I get back. 
       Thank you Ray!!


      Sent from my iPhone

      On Jan 7, 2015, at 11:43 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Where is my reply from last night (sent well after midnight)?  I did ask that you always include my previous message with your posts.  Please do this from now on to make it easy to follow everything. 
       
      I like the numbers in the 10 gallon tank!  They couldn't be any better.  Even if more water was changed than needed to get these results, changing this much at this time assures that the organic wastes are all zero.  Excellent for the fish.  Just need to keep on top of this tank just as you're doing now.
       
      As for the 55 gallon, I had been afraid that the nitrite would still be up at 5.0.  Follow the instructions I sent you very early this morning for the PWC, to get rid of much of that nitrite -- a 40% PWC is called for -- and another similar one may be needed by tomorrow but I don't want to remove too much at this time as I still want to see the bacteria being fed a fair amount.  As for the ammonia, that the value dropped from 4.0 ppm last night down to 0.50 this morning shows that these Nitrosomonas are starting to do a decent job.  After doing this PWC, add just 1 teaspoon (not the 1/2 tsp I said last night) of ammonia back in (I'm going more slowly this time) and give the test results after 10 minutes; should be plenty of time to mix.  We may need to add more, but we'll do a little at a time this time around.

      That the ammonia DID drop from 4.0 to 0.50 without the nitrite going higher indicates that the Nitrobacters seem to have not been impacted too greatly and that they're still consuming this latest influx of ammonia -- although not at an acceptable pace yet, as the nitrate is not showing any increase.  I hope you're getting an accurate reading for the nitrite and that it isn't higher than we think because of more ammonia being converted.
       
      As usual, please give test results after the 40% PWC, for ammonia and nitrite.  No need for any other tests right now.  I'll check back ASAP.  Stand by to possibly add more ammonia.  BTW, I'm wasting more time than otherwise needed because I keep needing to refer back to my (and your's) previous message that I've Minimized, separately, instead of being able to see the previous message right here.  
       
      Yes, Amazon is quite reliable.  I've dealt with them occasionally and have never been disappointed.
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/7/2015 10:56:19 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      75% of the water in the 10 gal was changed last night. The counts this morning are;
      Ph 7.6, Hph 8, ammonia 0, nitrites 0, nitrates 0, GH 8, KH 6

      The test results on the 55 gal are:
      Ph 7.6, Hph 8.2, ammonia .50, nitrites 5, nitrates 5, KH 6

      When I did the water tests I noticed that the tank needed topped off. I ended up adding 10 gal of water. I'm hoping the addition of the fresh water may jump start the the cycle so the nitrites get moving. I don't know how long it takes for fresh water to impact the overall properties, maybe it's not enough but i can re-check in 20 min(1110)

      If there aren't any significant changes I'm prepared to do the water change you recommend.

      Im an Amazon Prime member and part of the membership is the ability to subscribe and receive consumable items. Saves me from remembering to order. I rec'd A notice yesterday that they shipped it so I knew Safe start was coming. I LOVE amazon!! So convenient!!

      Sent from my iPhone

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56432 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/7/2015
      Subject: Re: O/T - Water test results for 55 gal and 10 gal
      AOL Email
      Have you tried iron supplements? 
       
      You can answer this when giving the test result.
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/7/2015 8:40:15 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Ahh, you're so nice. Well thank you for being so considerate. I'm fine. I just don't sleep and it catches up with me. When I say "I don't sleep" I mean for like days... I can and go 4-5 nights straight without sleeping. It wreaks havoc on the body. Eventually you just start feeling like a zombie. 
      I also ABHOR this cold weather! I'm anemic on top old all my old lady 
      Ailments and not having any iron really stinks!
      Sent from my iPhone

      On Jan 7, 2015, at 8:11 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Peg,
       
      I'm starting here as I want to tell you that the plan for the Purigen to use on the 55 was only if you weren't up to doing a PWC.  Didn't know how you were feeling after comig home from the doctor's office.
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/7/2015 8:09:07 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      No Ray... I really didn't mean to alleviate the email you sent.
      I'm not trying to make things difficult and I know you're talking to and helping
      otters and to have to go back and forth referencing emails is a pain. I appreciate it's your help so I need to pay more attention to what you ask. 

      I'm a little confused about the Purigen. I didn't think we were going to use it in the 55 gallon l because it strips out the ammonia etc... 





      Sent from my iPhone

      On Jan 7, 2015, at 4:58 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Peg,  Actually, it's no big thing.  Doesn't bother me but the extra time spent referring back to my message that I opened and minimized to have on hand (which I don't mind) delays the time when you get my reply, which I know you need sooner rather than later.  Other than that, it's not that I mind at all but it sets what you need to do back.  Hope things go well at the doctor.  Sorry to hear you had a bad night; hope you're feeling better.  If you're not up to doing the PWC today, since you probably received the Purigen from Amazon today too, just add two  and a half teaspoons of ammonia and use that Purigen to remove both the ammonia and the high nitrite until early tomorrow.  You'll need to jump on it tomorrow though to make tests and add some more ammonia back in after seeing what its number is. 
       
      Best wishes,
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/7/2015 12:17:06 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Sorry I didn't reply using your mail from last night. Been a long night, one w/o sleep. 
      I'm on my way to the doctor so I won't be able to do water change until I get back. 
       Thank you Ray!!


      Sent from my iPhone

      On Jan 7, 2015, at 11:43 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Where is my reply from last night (sent well after midnight)?  I did ask that you always include my previous message with your posts.  Please do this from now on to make it easy to follow everything. 
       
      I like the numbers in the 10 gallon tank!  They couldn't be any better.  Even if more water was changed than needed to get these results, changing this much at this time assures that the organic wastes are all zero.  Excellent for the fish.  Just need to keep on top of this tank just as you're doing now.
       
      As for the 55 gallon, I had been afraid that the nitrite would still be up at 5.0.  Follow the instructions I sent you very early this morning for the PWC, to get rid of much of that nitrite -- a 40% PWC is called for -- and another similar one may be needed by tomorrow but I don't want to remove too much at this time as I still want to see the bacteria being fed a fair amount.  As for the ammonia, that the value dropped from 4.0 ppm last night down to 0.50 this morning shows that these Nitrosomonas are starting to do a decent job.  After doing this PWC, add just 1 teaspoon (not the 1/2 tsp I said last night) of ammonia back in (I'm going more slowly this time) and give the test results after 10 minutes; should be plenty of time to mix.  We may need to add more, but we'll do a little at a time this time around.

      That the ammonia DID drop from 4.0 to 0.50 without the nitrite going higher indicates that the Nitrobacters seem to have not been impacted too greatly and that they're still consuming this latest influx of ammonia -- although not at an acceptable pace yet, as the nitrate is not showing any increase.  I hope you're getting an accurate reading for the nitrite and that it isn't higher than we think because of more ammonia being converted.
       
      As usual, please give test results after the 40% PWC, for ammonia and nitrite.  No need for any other tests right now.  I'll check back ASAP.  Stand by to possibly add more ammonia.  BTW, I'm wasting more time than otherwise needed because I keep needing to refer back to my (and your's) previous message that I've Minimized, separately, instead of being able to see the previous message right here.  
       
      Yes, Amazon is quite reliable.  I've dealt with them occasionally and have never been disappointed.
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/7/2015 10:56:19 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      75% of the water in the 10 gal was changed last night. The counts this morning are;
      Ph 7.6, Hph 8, ammonia 0, nitrites 0, nitrates 0, GH 8, KH 6

      The test results on the 55 gal are:
      Ph 7.6, Hph 8.2, ammonia .50, nitrites 5, nitrates 5, KH 6

      When I did the water tests I noticed that the tank needed topped off. I ended up adding 10 gal of water. I'm hoping the addition of the fresh water may jump start the the cycle so the nitrites get moving. I don't know how long it takes for fresh water to impact the overall properties, maybe it's not enough but i can re-check in 20 min(1110)

      If there aren't any significant changes I'm prepared to do the water change you recommend.

      Im an Amazon Prime member and part of the membership is the ability to subscribe and receive consumable items. Saves me from remembering to order. I rec'd A notice yesterday that they shipped it so I knew Safe start was coming. I LOVE amazon!! So convenient!!

      Sent from my iPhone

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56433 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 1/7/2015
      Subject: Re: 2nd round Updated Numbers 55 Gal snd 10 Gal 1/6/15u
      Hi Ray!!
      10 min after adding 2 tsp ammonia the test came out 1 with nitrites 2

      Your nite below instructed to add 1/2 tsp if next test came out 2.  Since result was less than 2-I added 1 tsp ammonia

      After next 10 min ammonia is at 2, nitrites at 2

      Sent from my iPhone

      On Jan 7, 2015, at 8:24 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      I would have to guess that the Aquavac might be just a little easier than carrying buckets < g >.  Okay, that's where we want the nitrite. Actually, it's a little lower than the math shows it to work out to, but that's okay; it will probably be up again soon, and probably by too much -- necessitating another PWC.  So, with the ammonia down to zero, add 2 teaspoons of ammonia.  Take a test for ammonia after about 10 minutes.  If it's at 2.0 ppm, add 1/2 teaspoon more and test again after 10 minutes.  We may add another 1/2 teaspoon, depending on the results.  If it's above 2.0 the first time and up instead to 3.0 ppm, then just add 1/2 teaspoon and re-test (after 10 minutes).  If any questions, please let me know.
       
      Ray
         
       
      In a message dated 1/7/2015 8:07:55 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

       I used the Aquavac today! That thing is awesome. To get the 55 gal drained (and then refilled took. Less than 20 min!! It was great!!

      The ammonia is now 0 and Nitrites are 2. 

      😔

      Sent from my iPhone

      On Jan 7, 2015, at 6:28 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Hi Peg,
       
      Looks like you missed my last message; hope you're feeling better.
       
      Please let me know what the numbers are for the ammonia and the nitrite first before you do anything else.
       
      No, the ammonia won't kill the bacteria.  You do not need any salt for cycling the tank, so don't even be concerned about it. 
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/7/2015 6:23:08 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      I competed the 40% water change and have added a bottle Safes Start Plus( which incidentally does contain proprietary strains of nitrosomonas, nitrosospira, and nitrospira). 
      In this email you told me to add 1/2 tsp ammonia but this directjve was prior to   today showed only .50 of ammonia.  Do you want to stick with that 1/2 tsp?  Another thing, I put that Safe Start in there and it's mixing in. What happens when the ammonia goes in? Does it kill the bacteria?? I'm thinking like a mom I guess  because my logic is that ammonia = dead bacteria. Also, do you want me to replace the salt??

      Sent from my iPhone

      On Jan 7, 2015, at 2:28 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Yes, looks like you have your understanding of the nitrogen cycle right, and when I say "organic waste," I'm mainly referring to fish waste but it would include anything organic that's being oxidized.  The ammonia is broken down by several genera of bacteria and the nitrite in turn is also broken down by several other genera of bacteria. 
       
      Yes, the high nitrite value indicates there's not enough of the bacteria yet available that converts this to nitrate.  As nitrite is even more toxic than ammonia -- even to nitrifying bacteria -- a high level of nitrite will start killing off these bacteria and that's what causes the stall.  The cycle can't proceed again until the nitrite is brought back down, and even then, the bacteria populations must now get back up there were they once were before the die-off to be able to process the waste effectively again.  So, it's not just a stall at a certain level where it can proceed from again, but the cycle would have actually gone backward from having a partial die-off and now needs to get re-established again up to its previous level to continue -- not saying that this happened yet here but it could be a possibility.
       
      I was going to wait until the morning to see where the numbers are and go from there.  As it is now, at this time of night, it looks like this is the only course at this time anyway.  One course of action would be to do a PWC to physically lower the nitrite, which is what I expect will be needed and most useful -- just as you're thinking of.  Beneficial Bacteria (BB?) is mostly in the filter.  It's also on all other surfaces inside of the aquarium, including on the substrate, glass, rocks, ornaments, filter tubes, heater, plants (live or artificial), etc.,  but not necessarily any more on one surface than another.  Adding more good bacteria would surely help, but I'm not understanding why if you spent money on 2 large bottles of Safe Start, why you didn't just spend it on Dr. Tim's One & Only and be done with cycling.  You added Safe Start at the beginning of this cycling process yet it would seem to appear that it hasn't done anything in adding live bacteria capable of breaking down this organic waste.  I do need to question whether Safe Start contains live nitrifying bacteria.mhoving only one of these.  Best course of action if the nitrite is still up at 5.0 ppm, which I suspect, is to do a 40% PWC, which should remove 2.0 ppm dropping the level to 3.0 ppm.  If the nitrite has increased overnight, then a larger PWC is called for.  Trusting that fresh Safe Start might be more effective in containing live bacteria, add this to the water after the PWC.  As a 40% PWC will reduce the ammonia level from 4.0 ppm down to 2.4 ppm, you'll need to add a small amount of ammonia back in; 1/2 teaspoon for the tank would be the way to start, with testing it again after 20 minutes.  Can't expect everything to go smooth all the time.  BTW, if you haven't done so already, raise the temperature.
       
      Ray 
       
       
       
      In a message dated 1/7/2015 12:30:23 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      I'm trying to understand the nitrogen cycle....humor me but please correct me where I'm wrong...... 
      Fish in --> Ammonia is created by fish, waste, leftover foodstuff etc... --> ammonia being broken down turns into nitrites-->beneficial bacteria turns the nitrites into nitrates> 

      Is the high nitrite count indicating that there isn't enough beneficial bacteria to keep up with the conversion from nitrite to nitrate? Would it "stall" because it kind of burns itself out, kinda spinning its wheels unable to get traction to go forward? 

      Would it help to 
      a) do a small water change to get rid of some of the ammonia, nitrites and nitrates so the bacteria can catch up (BB is mostly in the filter snd substrate right?)
      OR 
      b) add more good bacteria (Safe Start) that would jump in, hopefully flood the nitrites sitting around waiting to be converted? 

      I have an Amazon delivery coming tomorrow which includes 2 lg bottles of Safe Start and the Purigen. 
      I know you told me that Purigen removes ammonia, nitrites and nitrates. Is there a way to manipulate the Purigen where It only depletes the nitrites? 

      Peg
      Soon Opening: Hoopin' It Up Designs
                                Custom Embroidery & Embellishments

      On Jan 6, 2015, at 6:38 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Nope, I was aiming for an ammonia level of 3.0 ppm, so that the nitrite wouldn't rise any further and would drop slightly.  One teaspoon of ammonia raised the level by 1.0 ppm yesterday; didn't work that way today!  Too high of a nitrite level can stall the cycle.  The pH and KH are fine though.  We'll see what things looks like tomorrow, but with 4.0 ppm ammonia the nitrite will probably rise.  . 
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/6/2015 6:29:49 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@... writes:
       

      Ok, after round 2 w/ 1 add'l tsp ammonia and 1 add'l tsp buffer
      Ph 7.6, Hph 8.2, Ammonia 4, Nitrites 5, Nitrates 20, KH 6

      I hope these numbers are a little closer to what you expected!
      Thanks Ray

       

       
       



       
       



       
       


      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56434 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 1/7/2015
      Subject: Re: O/T - Water test results for 55 gal and 10 gal
      Oh yeah, I've tried everything! What it comes down to is that about every other year I go thru 15-20 IV  infusions at the chemo lab

      This is a direct result of my gastric bypass surgery in 2002. I lost 150 lbs but I suffer from severe malabsorption of nutrients, especially iron and my B vitamins 

      Sent from my iPhone

      On Jan 7, 2015, at 8:42 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Have you tried iron supplements? 
       
      You can answer this when giving the test result.
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/7/2015 8:40:15 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Ahh, you're so nice. Well thank you for being so considerate. I'm fine. I just don't sleep and it catches up with me. When I say "I don't sleep" I mean for like days... I can and go 4-5 nights straight without sleeping. It wreaks havoc on the body. Eventually you just start feeling like a zombie. 
      I also ABHOR this cold weather! I'm anemic on top old all my old lady 
      Ailments and not having any iron really stinks!
      Sent from my iPhone

      On Jan 7, 2015, at 8:11 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Peg,
       
      I'm starting here as I want to tell you that the plan for the Purigen to use on the 55 was only if you weren't up to doing a PWC.  Didn't know how you were feeling after comig home from the doctor's office.
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/7/2015 8:09:07 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      No Ray... I really didn't mean to alleviate the email you sent.
      I'm not trying to make things difficult and I know you're talking to and helping
      otters and to have to go back and forth referencing emails is a pain. I appreciate it's your help so I need to pay more attention to what you ask. 

      I'm a little confused about the Purigen. I didn't think we were going to use it in the 55 gallon l because it strips out the ammonia etc... 





      Sent from my iPhone

      On Jan 7, 2015, at 4:58 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Peg,  Actually, it's no big thing.  Doesn't bother me but the extra time spent referring back to my message that I opened and minimized to have on hand (which I don't mind) delays the time when you get my reply, which I know you need sooner rather than later.  Other than that, it's not that I mind at all but it sets what you need to do back.  Hope things go well at the doctor.  Sorry to hear you had a bad night; hope you're feeling better.  If you're not up to doing the PWC today, since you probably received the Purigen from Amazon today too, just add two  and a half teaspoons of ammonia and use that Purigen to remove both the ammonia and the high nitrite until early tomorrow.  You'll need to jump on it tomorrow though to make tests and add some more ammonia back in after seeing what its number is. 
       
      Best wishes,
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/7/2015 12:17:06 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Sorry I didn't reply using your mail from last night. Been a long night, one w/o sleep. 
      I'm on my way to the doctor so I won't be able to do water change until I get back. 
       Thank you Ray!!


      Sent from my iPhone

      On Jan 7, 2015, at 11:43 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Where is my reply from last night (sent well after midnight)?  I did ask that you always include my previous message with your posts.  Please do this from now on to make it easy to follow everything. 
       
      I like the numbers in the 10 gallon tank!  They couldn't be any better.  Even if more water was changed than needed to get these results, changing this much at this time assures that the organic wastes are all zero.  Excellent for the fish.  Just need to keep on top of this tank just as you're doing now.
       
      As for the 55 gallon, I had been afraid that the nitrite would still be up at 5.0.  Follow the instructions I sent you very early this morning for the PWC, to get rid of much of that nitrite -- a 40% PWC is called for -- and another similar one may be needed by tomorrow but I don't want to remove too much at this time as I still want to see the bacteria being fed a fair amount.  As for the ammonia, that the value dropped from 4.0 ppm last night down to 0.50 this morning shows that these Nitrosomonas are starting to do a decent job.  After doing this PWC, add just 1 teaspoon (not the 1/2 tsp I said last night) of ammonia back in (I'm going more slowly this time) and give the test results after 10 minutes; should be plenty of time to mix.  We may need to add more, but we'll do a little at a time this time around.

      That the ammonia DID drop from 4.0 to 0.50 without the nitrite going higher indicates that the Nitrobacters seem to have not been impacted too greatly and that they're still consuming this latest influx of ammonia -- although not at an acceptable pace yet, as the nitrate is not showing any increase.  I hope you're getting an accurate reading for the nitrite and that it isn't higher than we think because of more ammonia being converted.
       
      As usual, please give test results after the 40% PWC, for ammonia and nitrite.  No need for any other tests right now.  I'll check back ASAP.  Stand by to possibly add more ammonia.  BTW, I'm wasting more time than otherwise needed because I keep needing to refer back to my (and your's) previous message that I've Minimized, separately, instead of being able to see the previous message right here.  
       
      Yes, Amazon is quite reliable.  I've dealt with them occasionally and have never been disappointed.
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/7/2015 10:56:19 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      75% of the water in the 10 gal was changed last night. The counts this morning are;
      Ph 7.6, Hph 8, ammonia 0, nitrites 0, nitrates 0, GH 8, KH 6

      The test results on the 55 gal are:
      Ph 7.6, Hph 8.2, ammonia .50, nitrites 5, nitrates 5, KH 6

      When I did the water tests I noticed that the tank needed topped off. I ended up adding 10 gal of water. I'm hoping the addition of the fresh water may jump start the the cycle so the nitrites get moving. I don't know how long it takes for fresh water to impact the overall properties, maybe it's not enough but i can re-check in 20 min(1110)

      If there aren't any significant changes I'm prepared to do the water change you recommend.

      Im an Amazon Prime member and part of the membership is the ability to subscribe and receive consumable items. Saves me from remembering to order. I rec'd A notice yesterday that they shipped it so I knew Safe start was coming. I LOVE amazon!! So convenient!!

      Sent from my iPhone

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56435 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/7/2015
      Subject: Re: 2nd round Updated Numbers 55 Gal snd 10 Gal 1/6/15u
      AOL Email
      Peg,
       
      While I think 1 more teaspoon of ammonia won't be too much, just add 1/2 teaspoon of ammonia, test it, and if it hasn't reached 3.0 ppm, then add the other 1/2 teaspoon ammonia.  Give a test result then, too.  We'll see what it looks like in the morning also, and take it up from there.
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/7/2015 9:58:50 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hi Ray!!
      10 min after adding 2 tsp ammonia the test came out 1 with nitrites 2

      Your nite below instructed to add 1/2 tsp if next test came out 2.  Since result was less than 2-I added 1 tsp ammonia

      After next 10 min ammonia is at 2, nitrites at 2

      Sent from my iPhone

      On Jan 7, 2015, at 8:24 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      I would have to guess that the Aquavac might be just a little easier than carrying buckets < g >.  Okay, that's where we want the nitrite. Actually, it's a little lower than the math shows it to work out to, but that's okay; it will probably be up again soon, and probably by too much -- necessitating another PWC.  So, with the ammonia down to zero, add 2 teaspoons of ammonia.  Take a test for ammonia after about 10 minutes.  If it's at 2.0 ppm, add 1/2 teaspoon more and test again after 10 minutes.  We may add another 1/2 teaspoon, depending on the results.  If it's above 2.0 the first time and up instead to 3.0 ppm, then just add 1/2 teaspoon and re-test (after 10 minutes).  If any questions, please let me know.
       
      Ray
         
       
      In a message dated 1/7/2015 8:07:55 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

       I used the Aquavac today! That thing is awesome. To get the 55 gal drained (and then refilled took. Less than 20 min!! It was great!!

      The ammonia is now 0 and Nitrites are 2. 

      😔

      Sent from my iPhone

      On Jan 7, 2015, at 6:28 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Hi Peg,
       
      Looks like you missed my last message; hope you're feeling better.
       
      Please let me know what the numbers are for the ammonia and the nitrite first before you do anything else.
       
      No, the ammonia won't kill the bacteria.  You do not need any salt for cycling the tank, so don't even be concerned about it. 
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/7/2015 6:23:08 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      I competed the 40% water change and have added a bottle Safes Start Plus( which incidentally does contain proprietary strains of nitrosomonas, nitrosospira, and nitrospira). 
      In this email you told me to add 1/2 tsp ammonia but this directjve was prior to   today showed only .50 of ammonia.  Do you want to stick with that 1/2 tsp?  Another thing, I put that Safe Start in there and it's mixing in. What happens when the ammonia goes in? Does it kill the bacteria?? I'm thinking like a mom I guess  because my logic is that ammonia = dead bacteria. Also, do you want me to replace the salt??

      Sent from my iPhone

      On Jan 7, 2015, at 2:28 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Yes, looks like you have your understanding of the nitrogen cycle right, and when I say "organic waste," I'm mainly referring to fish waste but it would include anything organic that's being oxidized.  The ammonia is broken down by several genera of bacteria and the nitrite in turn is also broken down by several other genera of bacteria. 
       
      Yes, the high nitrite value indicates there's not enough of the bacteria yet available that converts this to nitrate.  As nitrite is even more toxic than ammonia -- even to nitrifying bacteria -- a high level of nitrite will start killing off these bacteria and that's what causes the stall.  The cycle can't proceed again until the nitrite is brought back down, and even then, the bacteria populations must now get back up there were they once were before the die-off to be able to process the waste effectively again.  So, it's not just a stall at a certain level where it can proceed from again, but the cycle would have actually gone backward from having a partial die-off and now needs to get re-established again up to its previous level to continue -- not saying that this happened yet here but it could be a possibility.
       
      I was going to wait until the morning to see where the numbers are and go from there.  As it is now, at this time of night, it looks like this is the only course at this time anyway.  One course of action would be to do a PWC to physically lower the nitrite, which is what I expect will be needed and most useful -- just as you're thinking of.  Beneficial Bacteria (BB?) is mostly in the filter.  It's also on all other surfaces inside of the aquarium, including on the substrate, glass, rocks, ornaments, filter tubes, heater, plants (live or artificial), etc.,  but not necessarily any more on one surface than another.  Adding more good bacteria would surely help, but I'm not understanding why if you spent money on 2 large bottles of Safe Start, why you didn't just spend it on Dr. Tim's One & Only and be done with cycling.  You added Safe Start at the beginning of this cycling process yet it would seem to appear that it hasn't done anything in adding live bacteria capable of breaking down this organic waste.  I do need to question whether Safe Start contains live nitrifying bacteria.mhoving only one of these.  Best course of action if the nitrite is still up at 5.0 ppm, which I suspect, is to do a 40% PWC, which should remove 2.0 ppm dropping the level to 3.0 ppm.  If the nitrite has increased overnight, then a larger PWC is called for.  Trusting that fresh Safe Start might be more effective in containing live bacteria, add this to the water after the PWC.  As a 40% PWC will reduce the ammonia level from 4.0 ppm down to 2.4 ppm, you'll need to add a small amount of ammonia back in; 1/2 teaspoon for the tank would be the way to start, with testing it again after 20 minutes.  Can't expect everything to go smooth all the time.  BTW, if you haven't done so already, raise the temperature.
       
      Ray 
       
       
       
      In a message dated 1/7/2015 12:30:23 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      I'm trying to understand the nitrogen cycle....humor me but please correct me where I'm wrong...... 
      Fish in --> Ammonia is created by fish, waste, leftover foodstuff etc... --> ammonia being broken down turns into nitrites-->beneficial bacteria turns the nitrites into nitrates> 

      Is the high nitrite count indicating that there isn't enough beneficial bacteria to keep up with the conversion from nitrite to nitrate? Would it "stall" because it kind of burns itself out, kinda spinning its wheels unable to get traction to go forward? 

      Would it help to 
      a) do a small water change to get rid of some of the ammonia, nitrites and nitrates so the bacteria can catch up (BB is mostly in the filter snd substrate right?)
      OR 
      b) add more good bacteria (Safe Start) that would jump in, hopefully flood the nitrites sitting around waiting to be converted? 

      I have an Amazon delivery coming tomorrow which includes 2 lg bottles of Safe Start and the Purigen. 
      I know you told me that Purigen removes ammonia, nitrites and nitrates. Is there a way to manipulate the Purigen where It only depletes the nitrites? 

      Peg
      Soon Opening: Hoopin' It Up Designs
                                Custom Embroidery & Embellishments

      On Jan 6, 2015, at 6:38 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Nope, I was aiming for an ammonia level of 3.0 ppm, so that the nitrite wouldn't rise any further and would drop slightly.  One teaspoon of ammonia raised the level by 1.0 ppm yesterday; didn't work that way today!  Too high of a nitrite level can stall the cycle.  The pH and KH are fine though.  We'll see what things looks like tomorrow, but with 4.0 ppm ammonia the nitrite will probably rise.  . 
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/6/2015 6:29:49 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@... writes:
       

      Ok, after round 2 w/ 1 add'l tsp ammonia and 1 add'l tsp buffer
      Ph 7.6, Hph 8.2, Ammonia 4, Nitrites 5, Nitrates 20, KH 6

      I hope these numbers are a little closer to what you expected!
      Thanks Ray

       

       
       



       
       



       
       


      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56436 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 1/8/2015
      Subject: Re: 2nd round Updated Numbers 55 Gal snd 10 Gal 1/6/15u
      Added 1/2 tsp  waited 10 min to test 
      Ammonia 2.   Nitrites 2

      Added another 1/2 tsp ammonia - same results l



      Sent from my iPhone

      On Jan 8, 2015, at 12:39 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Peg,
       
      While I think 1 more teaspoon of ammonia won't be too much, just add 1/2 teaspoon of ammonia, test it, and if it hasn't reached 3.0 ppm, then add the other 1/2 teaspoon ammonia.  Give a test result then, too.  We'll see what it looks like in the morning also, and take it up from there.
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/7/2015 9:58:50 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hi Ray!!
      10 min after adding 2 tsp ammonia the test came out 1 with nitrites 2

      Your nite below instructed to add 1/2 tsp if next test came out 2.  Since result was less than 2-I added 1 tsp ammonia

      After next 10 min ammonia is at 2, nitrites at 2

      Sent from my iPhone

      On Jan 7, 2015, at 8:24 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      I would have to guess that the Aquavac might be just a little easier than carrying buckets < g >.  Okay, that's where we want the nitrite. Actually, it's a little lower than the math shows it to work out to, but that's okay; it will probably be up again soon, and probably by too much -- necessitating another PWC.  So, with the ammonia down to zero, add 2 teaspoons of ammonia.  Take a test for ammonia after about 10 minutes.  If it's at 2.0 ppm, add 1/2 teaspoon more and test again after 10 minutes.  We may add another 1/2 teaspoon, depending on the results.  If it's above 2.0 the first time and up instead to 3.0 ppm, then just add 1/2 teaspoon and re-test (after 10 minutes).  If any questions, please let me know.
       
      Ray
         
       
      In a message dated 1/7/2015 8:07:55 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

       I used the Aquavac today! That thing is awesome. To get the 55 gal drained (and then refilled took. Less than 20 min!! It was great!!

      The ammonia is now 0 and Nitrites are 2. 

      😔

      Sent from my iPhone

      On Jan 7, 2015, at 6:28 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Hi Peg,
       
      Looks like you missed my last message; hope you're feeling better.
       
      Please let me know what the numbers are for the ammonia and the nitrite first before you do anything else.
       
      No, the ammonia won't kill the bacteria.  You do not need any salt for cycling the tank, so don't even be concerned about it. 
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/7/2015 6:23:08 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      I competed the 40% water change and have added a bottle Safes Start Plus( which incidentally does contain proprietary strains of nitrosomonas, nitrosospira, and nitrospira). 
      In this email you told me to add 1/2 tsp ammonia but this directjve was prior to   today showed only .50 of ammonia.  Do you want to stick with that 1/2 tsp?  Another thing, I put that Safe Start in there and it's mixing in. What happens when the ammonia goes in? Does it kill the bacteria?? I'm thinking like a mom I guess  because my logic is that ammonia = dead bacteria. Also, do you want me to replace the salt??

      Sent from my iPhone

      On Jan 7, 2015, at 2:28 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Yes, looks like you have your understanding of the nitrogen cycle right, and when I say "organic waste," I'm mainly referring to fish waste but it would include anything organic that's being oxidized.  The ammonia is broken down by several genera of bacteria and the nitrite in turn is also broken down by several other genera of bacteria. 
       
      Yes, the high nitrite value indicates there's not enough of the bacteria yet available that converts this to nitrate.  As nitrite is even more toxic than ammonia -- even to nitrifying bacteria -- a high level of nitrite will start killing off these bacteria and that's what causes the stall.  The cycle can't proceed again until the nitrite is brought back down, and even then, the bacteria populations must now get back up there were they once were before the die-off to be able to process the waste effectively again.  So, it's not just a stall at a certain level where it can proceed from again, but the cycle would have actually gone backward from having a partial die-off and now needs to get re-established again up to its previous level to continue -- not saying that this happened yet here but it could be a possibility.
       
      I was going to wait until the morning to see where the numbers are and go from there.  As it is now, at this time of night, it looks like this is the only course at this time anyway.  One course of action would be to do a PWC to physically lower the nitrite, which is what I expect will be needed and most useful -- just as you're thinking of.  Beneficial Bacteria (BB?) is mostly in the filter.  It's also on all other surfaces inside of the aquarium, including on the substrate, glass, rocks, ornaments, filter tubes, heater, plants (live or artificial), etc.,  but not necessarily any more on one surface than another.  Adding more good bacteria would surely help, but I'm not understanding why if you spent money on 2 large bottles of Safe Start, why you didn't just spend it on Dr. Tim's One & Only and be done with cycling.  You added Safe Start at the beginning of this cycling process yet it would seem to appear that it hasn't done anything in adding live bacteria capable of breaking down this organic waste.  I do need to question whether Safe Start contains live nitrifying bacteria.mhoving only one of these.  Best course of action if the nitrite is still up at 5.0 ppm, which I suspect, is to do a 40% PWC, which should remove 2.0 ppm dropping the level to 3.0 ppm.  If the nitrite has increased overnight, then a larger PWC is called for.  Trusting that fresh Safe Start might be more effective in containing live bacteria, add this to the water after the PWC.  As a 40% PWC will reduce the ammonia level from 4.0 ppm down to 2.4 ppm, you'll need to add a small amount of ammonia back in; 1/2 teaspoon for the tank would be the way to start, with testing it again after 20 minutes.  Can't expect everything to go smooth all the time.  BTW, if you haven't done so already, raise the temperature.
       
      Ray 
       
       
       
      In a message dated 1/7/2015 12:30:23 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      I'm trying to understand the nitrogen cycle....humor me but please correct me where I'm wrong...... 
      Fish in --> Ammonia is created by fish, waste, leftover foodstuff etc... --> ammonia being broken down turns into nitrites-->beneficial bacteria turns the nitrites into nitrates> 

      Is the high nitrite count indicating that there isn't enough beneficial bacteria to keep up with the conversion from nitrite to nitrate? Would it "stall" because it kind of burns itself out, kinda spinning its wheels unable to get traction to go forward? 

      Would it help to 
      a) do a small water change to get rid of some of the ammonia, nitrites and nitrates so the bacteria can catch up (BB is mostly in the filter snd substrate right?)
      OR 
      b) add more good bacteria (Safe Start) that would jump in, hopefully flood the nitrites sitting around waiting to be converted? 

      I have an Amazon delivery coming tomorrow which includes 2 lg bottles of Safe Start and the Purigen. 
      I know you told me that Purigen removes ammonia, nitrites and nitrates. Is there a way to manipulate the Purigen where It only depletes the nitrites? 

      Peg
      Soon Opening: Hoopin' It Up Designs
                                Custom Embroidery & Embellishments

      On Jan 6, 2015, at 6:38 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Nope, I was aiming for an ammonia level of 3.0 ppm, so that the nitrite wouldn't rise any further and would drop slightly.  One teaspoon of ammonia raised the level by 1.0 ppm yesterday; didn't work that way today!  Too high of a nitrite level can stall the cycle.  The pH and KH are fine though.  We'll see what things looks like tomorrow, but with 4.0 ppm ammonia the nitrite will probably rise.  . 
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/6/2015 6:29:49 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@... writes:
       

      Ok, after round 2 w/ 1 add'l tsp ammonia and 1 add'l tsp buffer
      Ph 7.6, Hph 8.2, Ammonia 4, Nitrites 5, Nitrates 20, KH 6

      I hope these numbers are a little closer to what you expected!
      Thanks Ray

       

       
       



       
       



       
       


      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56437 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/8/2015
      Subject: Re: 2nd round Updated Numbers 55 Gal snd 10 Gal 1/6/15u
      AOL Email
      Very strange why it could be the same when adding more.  From the 2.0 ppm reading of the ammonia, it looks like it could use at least another full teaspoon, but this time do the same thing -- add 1/2 teaspoon ammonia, wait 10 minutes and test.  Post the number here and we'll see if another 1/2 teaspoon is called for.
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/8/2015 7:05:58 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Added 1/2 tsp  waited 10 min to test 
      Ammonia 2.   Nitrites 2

      Added another 1/2 tsp ammonia - same results l



      Sent from my iPhone

      On Jan 8, 2015, at 12:39 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Peg,
       
      While I think 1 more teaspoon of ammonia won't be too much, just add 1/2 teaspoon of ammonia, test it, and if it hasn't reached 3.0 ppm, then add the other 1/2 teaspoon ammonia.  Give a test result then, too.  We'll see what it looks like in the morning also, and take it up from there.
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/7/2015 9:58:50 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hi Ray!!
      10 min after adding 2 tsp ammonia the test came out 1 with nitrites 2

      Your nite below instructed to add 1/2 tsp if next test came out 2.  Since result was less than 2-I added 1 tsp ammonia

      After next 10 min ammonia is at 2, nitrites at 2

      Sent from my iPhone

      On Jan 7, 2015, at 8:24 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      I would have to guess that the Aquavac might be just a little easier than carrying buckets < g >.  Okay, that's where we want the nitrite. Actually, it's a little lower than the math shows it to work out to, but that's okay; it will probably be up again soon, and probably by too much -- necessitating another PWC.  So, with the ammonia down to zero, add 2 teaspoons of ammonia.  Take a test for ammonia after about 10 minutes.  If it's at 2.0 ppm, add 1/2 teaspoon more and test again after 10 minutes.  We may add another 1/2 teaspoon, depending on the results.  If it's above 2.0 the first time and up instead to 3.0 ppm, then just add 1/2 teaspoon and re-test (after 10 minutes).  If any questions, please let me know.
       
      Ray
         
       
      In a message dated 1/7/2015 8:07:55 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

       I used the Aquavac today! That thing is awesome. To get the 55 gal drained (and then refilled took. Less than 20 min!! It was great!!

      The ammonia is now 0 and Nitrites are 2. 

      😔

      Sent from my iPhone

      On Jan 7, 2015, at 6:28 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Hi Peg,
       
      Looks like you missed my last message; hope you're feeling better.
       
      Please let me know what the numbers are for the ammonia and the nitrite first before you do anything else.
       
      No, the ammonia won't kill the bacteria.  You do not need any salt for cycling the tank, so don't even be concerned about it. 
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/7/2015 6:23:08 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      I competed the 40% water change and have added a bottle Safes Start Plus( which incidentally does contain proprietary strains of nitrosomonas, nitrosospira, and nitrospira). 
      In this email you told me to add 1/2 tsp ammonia but this directjve was prior to   today showed only .50 of ammonia.  Do you want to stick with that 1/2 tsp?  Another thing, I put that Safe Start in there and it's mixing in. What happens when the ammonia goes in? Does it kill the bacteria?? I'm thinking like a mom I guess  because my logic is that ammonia = dead bacteria. Also, do you want me to replace the salt??

      Sent from my iPhone

      On Jan 7, 2015, at 2:28 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Yes, looks like you have your understanding of the nitrogen cycle right, and when I say "organic waste," I'm mainly referring to fish waste but it would include anything organic that's being oxidized.  The ammonia is broken down by several genera of bacteria and the nitrite in turn is also broken down by several other genera of bacteria. 
       
      Yes, the high nitrite value indicates there's not enough of the bacteria yet available that converts this to nitrate.  As nitrite is even more toxic than ammonia -- even to nitrifying bacteria -- a high level of nitrite will start killing off these bacteria and that's what causes the stall.  The cycle can't proceed again until the nitrite is brought back down, and even then, the bacteria populations must now get back up there were they once were before the die-off to be able to process the waste effectively again.  So, it's not just a stall at a certain level where it can proceed from again, but the cycle would have actually gone backward from having a partial die-off and now needs to get re-established again up to its previous level to continue -- not saying that this happened yet here but it could be a possibility.
       
      I was going to wait until the morning to see where the numbers are and go from there.  As it is now, at this time of night, it looks like this is the only course at this time anyway.  One course of action would be to do a PWC to physically lower the nitrite, which is what I expect will be needed and most useful -- just as you're thinking of.  Beneficial Bacteria (BB?) is mostly in the filter.  It's also on all other surfaces inside of the aquarium, including on the substrate, glass, rocks, ornaments, filter tubes, heater, plants (live or artificial), etc.,  but not necessarily any more on one surface than another.  Adding more good bacteria would surely help, but I'm not understanding why if you spent money on 2 large bottles of Safe Start, why you didn't just spend it on Dr. Tim's One & Only and be done with cycling.  You added Safe Start at the beginning of this cycling process yet it would seem to appear that it hasn't done anything in adding live bacteria capable of breaking down this organic waste.  I do need to question whether Safe Start contains live nitrifying bacteria.mhoving only one of these.  Best course of action if the nitrite is still up at 5.0 ppm, which I suspect, is to do a 40% PWC, which should remove 2.0 ppm dropping the level to 3.0 ppm.  If the nitrite has increased overnight, then a larger PWC is called for.  Trusting that fresh Safe Start might be more effective in containing live bacteria, add this to the water after the PWC.  As a 40% PWC will reduce the ammonia level from 4.0 ppm down to 2.4 ppm, you'll need to add a small amount of ammonia back in; 1/2 teaspoon for the tank would be the way to start, with testing it again after 20 minutes.  Can't expect everything to go smooth all the time.  BTW, if you haven't done so already, raise the temperature.
       
      Ray 
       
       
       
      In a message dated 1/7/2015 12:30:23 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      I'm trying to understand the nitrogen cycle....humor me but please correct me where I'm wrong...... 
      Fish in --> Ammonia is created by fish, waste, leftover foodstuff etc... --> ammonia being broken down turns into nitrites-->beneficial bacteria turns the nitrites into nitrates> 

      Is the high nitrite count indicating that there isn't enough beneficial bacteria to keep up with the conversion from nitrite to nitrate? Would it "stall" because it kind of burns itself out, kinda spinning its wheels unable to get traction to go forward? 

      Would it help to 
      a) do a small water change to get rid of some of the ammonia, nitrites and nitrates so the bacteria can catch up (BB is mostly in the filter snd substrate right?)
      OR 
      b) add more good bacteria (Safe Start) that would jump in, hopefully flood the nitrites sitting around waiting to be converted? 

      I have an Amazon delivery coming tomorrow which includes 2 lg bottles of Safe Start and the Purigen. 
      I know you told me that Purigen removes ammonia, nitrites and nitrates. Is there a way to manipulate the Purigen where It only depletes the nitrites? 

      Peg
      Soon Opening: Hoopin' It Up Designs
                                Custom Embroidery & Embellishments

      On Jan 6, 2015, at 6:38 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Nope, I was aiming for an ammonia level of 3.0 ppm, so that the nitrite wouldn't rise any further and would drop slightly.  One teaspoon of ammonia raised the level by 1.0 ppm yesterday; didn't work that way today!  Too high of a nitrite level can stall the cycle.  The pH and KH are fine though.  We'll see what things looks like tomorrow, but with 4.0 ppm ammonia the nitrite will probably rise.  . 
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/6/2015 6:29:49 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@... writes:
       

      Ok, after round 2 w/ 1 add'l tsp ammonia and 1 add'l tsp buffer
      Ph 7.6, Hph 8.2, Ammonia 4, Nitrites 5, Nitrates 20, KH 6

      I hope these numbers are a little closer to what you expected!
      Thanks Ray

       

       
       



       
       



       
       


      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56438 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 1/8/2015
      Subject: Numbers for 1/8
      Hi Ray!!

      I'm sorry I'm behind today. Remember me telling you that after I don't
      sleep for 3-4 night I just crash?
      Early this morning that happened. About 4 am, I died. Slept for about
      7 hours. The longest stretch of sleep I've had since Christmas.

      These are the numbers for the 55 gal;
      HPh 8, ammonia 0, nitrite 2, nitrate 40, GH 7, KH 5

      Peg
      peg@...
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56439 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/8/2015
      Subject: Re: Numbers for 1/8
      AOL Email
      Peg,
       
       Please include my messages with your replies.
       
      Sorry to hear about you insomnia, but it's good you can still catch up on some sleep.  I'm guessing these numbers are before adding any ammonia today.  Add 3 teaspoons of ammonia at this time and 1 teaspoon of Seachem buffer.  Please post the numbers after allowing 10 minutes to circulate.  Don't forget to dissolve the buffer first before adding it.
       
      Ray 
       
      In a message dated 1/8/2015 4:14:26 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hi Ray!!

      I'm sorry I'm behind today. Remember me telling you that after I don't
      sleep for 3-4 night I just crash?
      Early this morning that happened. About 4 am, I died. Slept for about
      7 hours. The longest stretch of sleep I've had since Christmas.

      These are the numbers for the 55 gal;
      HPh 8, ammonia 0, nitrite 2, nitrate 40, GH 7, KH 5

      Peg
      peg@...

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56440 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 1/8/2015
      Subject: Re: 2nd round Updated Numbers 55 Gal snd 10 Gal 1/6/15u
      I copied all the text from early morning email and this even so all are in one place now!

       After 3 tsp ammonia and 1 tsp buffer- 
      Ammonia 2,  nitrites 2, KH 6


       Please include my messages with your replies. 
       
      Sorry to hear about you insomnia, but it's good you can still catch up on some sleep.  I'm guessing these numbers are before adding any ammonia today.  Add 3 teaspoons of ammonia at this time and 1 teaspoon of Seachem buffer.  Please post the numbers after allowing 10 minutes to circulate.  Don't forget to dissolve the buffer first before adding it.
       
      Ray  
       
      In a message dated 1/8/2015 4:14:26 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hi Ray!!

      I'm sorry I'm behind today. Remember me telling you that after I don't
      sleep for 3-4 night I just crash?
      Early this morning that happened. About 4 am, I died. Slept for about
      7 hours. The longest stretch of sleep I've had since Christmas.

      These are the numbers for the 55 gal;
      HPh 8, ammonia 0, nitrite 2, nitrate 40, GH 7, KH 5

      Peg
      peg@...


      Sent from my iPhone

      On Jan 8, 2015, at 7:10 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Very strange why it could be the same when adding more.  From the 2.0 ppm reading of the ammonia, it looks like it could use at least another full teaspoon, but this time do the same thing -- add 1/2 teaspoon ammonia, wait 10 minutes and test.  Post the number here and we'll see if another 1/2 teaspoon is called for.
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/8/2015 7:05:58 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Added 1/2 tsp  waited 10 min to test 
      Ammonia 2.   Nitrites 2

      Added another 1/2 tsp ammonia - same results l



      Sent from my iPhone

      On Jan 8, 2015, at 12:39 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Peg,
       
      While I think 1 more teaspoon of ammonia won't be too much, just add 1/2 teaspoon of ammonia, test it, and if it hasn't reached 3.0 ppm, then add the other 1/2 teaspoon ammonia.  Give a test result then, too.  We'll see what it looks like in the morning also, and take it up from there.
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/7/2015 9:58:50 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hi Ray!!
      10 min after adding 2 tsp ammonia the test came out 1 with nitrites 2

      Your nite below instructed to add 1/2 tsp if next test came out 2.  Since result was less than 2-I added 1 tsp ammonia

      After next 10 min ammonia is at 2, nitrites at 2

      Sent from my iPhone

      On Jan 7, 2015, at 8:24 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      I would have to guess that the Aquavac might be just a little easier than carrying buckets < g >.  Okay, that's where we want the nitrite. Actually, it's a little lower than the math shows it to work out to, but that's okay; it will probably be up again soon, and probably by too much -- necessitating another PWC.  So, with the ammonia down to zero, add 2 teaspoons of ammonia.  Take a test for ammonia after about 10 minutes.  If it's at 2.0 ppm, add 1/2 teaspoon more and test again after 10 minutes.  We may add another 1/2 teaspoon, depending on the results.  If it's above 2.0 the first time and up instead to 3.0 ppm, then just add 1/2 teaspoon and re-test (after 10 minutes).  If any questions, please let me know.
       
      Ray
         
       
      In a message dated 1/7/2015 8:07:55 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

       I used the Aquavac today! That thing is awesome. To get the 55 gal drained (and then refilled took. Less than 20 min!! It was great!!

      The ammonia is now 0 and Nitrites are 2. 

      😔

      Sent from my iPhone

      On Jan 7, 2015, at 6:28 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Hi Peg,
       
      Looks like you missed my last message; hope you're feeling better.
       
      Please let me know what the numbers are for the ammonia and the nitrite first before you do anything else.
       
      No, the ammonia won't kill the bacteria.  You do not need any salt for cycling the tank, so don't even be concerned about it. 
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/7/2015 6:23:08 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      I competed the 40% water change and have added a bottle Safes Start Plus( which incidentally does contain proprietary strains of nitrosomonas, nitrosospira, and nitrospira). 
      In this email you told me to add 1/2 tsp ammonia but this directjve was prior to   today showed only .50 of ammonia.  Do you want to stick with that 1/2 tsp?  Another thing, I put that Safe Start in there and it's mixing in. What happens when the ammonia goes in? Does it kill the bacteria?? I'm thinking like a mom I guess  because my logic is that ammonia = dead bacteria. Also, do you want me to replace the salt??

      Sent from my iPhone

      On Jan 7, 2015, at 2:28 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Yes, looks like you have your understanding of the nitrogen cycle right, and when I say "organic waste," I'm mainly referring to fish waste but it would include anything organic that's being oxidized.  The ammonia is broken down by several genera of bacteria and the nitrite in turn is also broken down by several other genera of bacteria. 
       
      Yes, the high nitrite value indicates there's not enough of the bacteria yet available that converts this to nitrate.  As nitrite is even more toxic than ammonia -- even to nitrifying bacteria -- a high level of nitrite will start killing off these bacteria and that's what causes the stall.  The cycle can't proceed again until the nitrite is brought back down, and even then, the bacteria populations must now get back up there were they once were before the die-off to be able to process the waste effectively again.  So, it's not just a stall at a certain level where it can proceed from again, but the cycle would have actually gone backward from having a partial die-off and now needs to get re-established again up to its previous level to continue -- not saying that this happened yet here but it could be a possibility.
       
      I was going to wait until the morning to see where the numbers are and go from there.  As it is now, at this time of night, it looks like this is the only course at this time anyway.  One course of action would be to do a PWC to physically lower the nitrite, which is what I expect will be needed and most useful -- just as you're thinking of.  Beneficial Bacteria (BB?) is mostly in the filter.  It's also on all other surfaces inside of the aquarium, including on the substrate, glass, rocks, ornaments, filter tubes, heater, plants (live or artificial), etc.,  but not necessarily any more on one surface than another.  Adding more good bacteria would surely help, but I'm not understanding why if you spent money on 2 large bottles of Safe Start, why you didn't just spend it on Dr. Tim's One & Only and be done with cycling.  You added Safe Start at the beginning of this cycling process yet it would seem to appear that it hasn't done anything in adding live bacteria capable of breaking down this organic waste.  I do need to question whether Safe Start contains live nitrifying bacteria.mhoving only one of these.  Best course of action if the nitrite is still up at 5.0 ppm, which I suspect, is to do a 40% PWC, which should remove 2.0 ppm dropping the level to 3.0 ppm.  If the nitrite has increased overnight, then a larger PWC is called for.  Trusting that fresh Safe Start might be more effective in containing live bacteria, add this to the water after the PWC.  As a 40% PWC will reduce the ammonia level from 4.0 ppm down to 2.4 ppm, you'll need to add a small amount of ammonia back in; 1/2 teaspoon for the tank would be the way to start, with testing it again after 20 minutes.  Can't expect everything to go smooth all the time.  BTW, if you haven't done so already, raise the temperature.
       
      Ray 
       
       
       
      In a message dated 1/7/2015 12:30:23 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      I'm trying to understand the nitrogen cycle....humor me but please correct me where I'm wrong...... 
      Fish in --> Ammonia is created by fish, waste, leftover foodstuff etc... --> ammonia being broken down turns into nitrites-->beneficial bacteria turns the nitrites into nitrates> 

      Is the high nitrite count indicating that there isn't enough beneficial bacteria to keep up with the conversion from nitrite to nitrate? Would it "stall" because it kind of burns itself out, kinda spinning its wheels unable to get traction to go forward? 

      Would it help to 
      a) do a small water change to get rid of some of the ammonia, nitrites and nitrates so the bacteria can catch up (BB is mostly in the filter snd substrate right?)
      OR 
      b) add more good bacteria (Safe Start) that would jump in, hopefully flood the nitrites sitting around waiting to be converted? 

      I have an Amazon delivery coming tomorrow which includes 2 lg bottles of Safe Start and the Purigen. 
      I know you told me that Purigen removes ammonia, nitrites and nitrates. Is there a way to manipulate the Purigen where It only depletes the nitrites? 

      Peg
      Soon Opening: Hoopin' It Up Designs
                                Custom Embroidery & Embellishments

      On Jan 6, 2015, at 6:38 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Nope, I was aiming for an ammonia level of 3.0 ppm, so that the nitrite wouldn't rise any further and would drop slightly.  One teaspoon of ammonia raised the level by 1.0 ppm yesterday; didn't work that way today!  Too high of a nitrite level can stall the cycle.  The pH and KH are fine though.  We'll see what things looks like tomorrow, but with 4.0 ppm ammonia the nitrite will probably rise.  . 
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/6/2015 6:29:49 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@... writes:
       

      Ok, after round 2 w/ 1 add'l tsp ammonia and 1 add'l tsp buffer
      Ph 7.6, Hph 8.2, Ammonia 4, Nitrites 5, Nitrates 20, KH 6

      I hope these numbers are a little closer to what you expected!
      Thanks Ray

       

       
       



       
       



       
       


      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56441 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/8/2015
      Subject: Re: 2nd round Updated Numbers 55 Gal snd 10 Gal 1/6/15u
      AOL Email
      Add one more teaspoon ammonia.  Post results for ammonia.
       
       
      In a message dated 1/8/2015 6:24:24 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      I copied all the text from early morning email and this even so all are in one place now!

       After 3 tsp ammonia and 1 tsp buffer- 
      Ammonia 2,  nitrites 2, KH 6


       Please include my messages with your replies. 
       
      Sorry to hear about you insomnia, but it's good you can still catch up on some sleep.  I'm guessing these numbers are before adding any ammonia today.  Add 3 teaspoons of ammonia at this time and 1 teaspoon of Seachem buffer.  Please post the numbers after allowing 10 minutes to circulate.  Don't forget to dissolve the buffer first before adding it.
       
      Ray  
       
      In a message dated 1/8/2015 4:14:26 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hi Ray!!

      I'm sorry I'm behind today. Remember me telling you that after I don't
      sleep for 3-4 night I just crash?
      Early this morning that happened. About 4 am, I died. Slept for about
      7 hours. The longest stretch of sleep I've had since Christmas.

      These are the numbers for the 55 gal;
      HPh 8, ammonia 0, nitrite 2, nitrate 40, GH 7, KH 5

      Peg
      peg@...


      Sent from my iPhone

      On Jan 8, 2015, at 7:10 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Very strange why it could be the same when adding more.  From the 2.0 ppm reading of the ammonia, it looks like it could use at least another full teaspoon, but this time do the same thing -- add 1/2 teaspoon ammonia, wait 10 minutes and test.  Post the number here and we'll see if another 1/2 teaspoon is called for.
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/8/2015 7:05:58 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Added 1/2 tsp  waited 10 min to test 
      Ammonia 2.   Nitrites 2

      Added another 1/2 tsp ammonia - same results l



      Sent from my iPhone

      On Jan 8, 2015, at 12:39 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Peg,
       
      While I think 1 more teaspoon of ammonia won't be too much, just add 1/2 teaspoon of ammonia, test it, and if it hasn't reached 3.0 ppm, then add the other 1/2 teaspoon ammonia.  Give a test result then, too.  We'll see what it looks like in the morning also, and take it up from there.
       
      Ray
       
       
       




       
       



       
       


       



       
       



       
       



       
       

       
       



       
       



       
       


      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56442 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 1/8/2015
      Subject: Re: 2nd round Updated Numbers 55 Gal snd 10 Gal 1/6/15u
      Ammonia count 2

      Sent from my iPhone

      On Jan 8, 2015, at 6:39 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Add one more teaspoon ammonia.  Post results for ammonia.
       
       
      In a message dated 1/8/2015 6:24:24 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      I copied all the text from early morning email and this even so all are in one place now!

       After 3 tsp ammonia and 1 tsp buffer- 
      Ammonia 2,  nitrites 2, KH 6


       Please include my messages with your replies. 
       
      Sorry to hear about you insomnia, but it's good you can still catch up on some sleep.  I'm guessing these numbers are before adding any ammonia today.  Add 3 teaspoons of ammonia at this time and 1 teaspoon of Seachem buffer.  Please post the numbers after allowing 10 minutes to circulate.  Don't forget to dissolve the buffer first before adding it.
       
      Ray  
       
      In a message dated 1/8/2015 4:14:26 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hi Ray!!

      I'm sorry I'm behind today. Remember me telling you that after I don't
      sleep for 3-4 night I just crash?
      Early this morning that happened. About 4 am, I died. Slept for about
      7 hours. The longest stretch of sleep I've had since Christmas.

      These are the numbers for the 55 gal;
      HPh 8, ammonia 0, nitrite 2, nitrate 40, GH 7, KH 5

      Peg
      peg@...


      Sent from my iPhone

      On Jan 8, 2015, at 7:10 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Very strange why it could be the same when adding more.  From the 2.0 ppm reading of the ammonia, it looks like it could use at least another full teaspoon, but this time do the same thing -- add 1/2 teaspoon ammonia, wait 10 minutes and test.  Post the number here and we'll see if another 1/2 teaspoon is called for.
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/8/2015 7:05:58 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Added 1/2 tsp  waited 10 min to test 
      Ammonia 2.   Nitrites 2

      Added another 1/2 tsp ammonia - same results l



      Sent from my iPhone

      On Jan 8, 2015, at 12:39 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Peg,
       
      While I think 1 more teaspoon of ammonia won't be too much, just add 1/2 teaspoon of ammonia, test it, and if it hasn't reached 3.0 ppm, then add the other 1/2 teaspoon ammonia.  Give a test result then, too.  We'll see what it looks like in the morning also, and take it up from there.
       
      Ray
       
       
       




       
       



       
       


       



       
       



       
       



       
       

       
       



       
       



       
       


      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56443 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/8/2015
      Subject: Re: 2nd round Updated Numbers 55 Gal snd 10 Gal 1/6/15u
      AOL Email
      Okay, add one more teaspoon ammonia and that will be it for this evening.  Take a test for it now (after 10 minutes) and another test for it tomorrow morning, with nitrite, nitrate and KH tests in the morning too.
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/8/2015 8:41:20 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Ammonia count 2

      Sent from my iPhone

      On Jan 8, 2015, at 6:39 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Add one more teaspoon ammonia.  Post results for ammonia.
       
       
      In a message dated 1/8/2015 6:24:24 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      I copied all the text from early morning email and this even so all are in one place now!

       After 3 tsp ammonia and 1 tsp buffer- 
      Ammonia 2,  nitrites 2, KH 6


       Please include my messages with your replies. 
       
      Sorry to hear about you insomnia, but it's good you can still catch up on some sleep.  I'm guessing these numbers are before adding any ammonia today.  Add 3 teaspoons of ammonia at this time and 1 teaspoon of Seachem buffer.  Please post the numbers after allowing 10 minutes to circulate.  Don't forget to dissolve the buffer first before adding it.
       
      Ray  
       
      In a message dated 1/8/2015 4:14:26 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hi Ray!!

      I'm sorry I'm behind today. Remember me telling you that after I don't
      sleep for 3-4 night I just crash?
      Early this morning that happened. About 4 am, I died. Slept for about
      7 hours. The longest stretch of sleep I've had since Christmas.

      These are the numbers for the 55 gal;
      HPh 8, ammonia 0, nitrite 2, nitrate 40, GH 7, KH 5

      Peg
      peg@...


      Sent from my iPhone

      On Jan 8, 2015, at 7:10 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Very strange why it could be the same when adding more.  From the 2.0 ppm reading of the ammonia, it looks like it could use at least another full teaspoon, but this time do the same thing -- add 1/2 teaspoon ammonia, wait 10 minutes and test.  Post the number here and we'll see if another 1/2 teaspoon is called for.
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/8/2015 7:05:58 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Added 1/2 tsp  waited 10 min to test 
      Ammonia 2.   Nitrites 2

      Added another 1/2 tsp ammonia - same results l



      Sent from my iPhone

      On Jan 8, 2015, at 12:39 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Peg,
       
      While I think 1 more teaspoon of ammonia won't be too much, just add 1/2 teaspoon of ammonia, test it, and if it hasn't reached 3.0 ppm, then add the other 1/2 teaspoon ammonia.  Give a test result then, too.  We'll see what it looks like in the morning also, and take it up from there.
       
      Ray
       
       
       




       
       



       
       


       



       
       



       
       



       
       

       
       



       
       



       
       


      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56444 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 1/8/2015
      Subject: Re: 2nd round Updated Numbers 55 Gal snd 10 Gal 1/6/15u
      After 10 min it was at 2. 
      Thank you Ray! Enjoy the rest of your evening!
      Peg

      Sent from my iPhone

      On Jan 8, 2015, at 8:44 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Okay, add one more teaspoon ammonia and that will be it for this evening.  Take a test for it now (after 10 minutes) and another test for it tomorrow morning, with nitrite, nitrate and KH tests in the morning too.
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/8/2015 8:41:20 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Ammonia count 2

      Sent from my iPhone

      On Jan 8, 2015, at 6:39 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Add one more teaspoon ammonia.  Post results for ammonia.
       
       
      In a message dated 1/8/2015 6:24:24 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      I copied all the text from early morning email and this even so all are in one place now!

       After 3 tsp ammonia and 1 tsp buffer- 
      Ammonia 2,  nitrites 2, KH 6


       Please include my messages with your replies. 
       
      Sorry to hear about you insomnia, but it's good you can still catch up on some sleep.  I'm guessing these numbers are before adding any ammonia today.  Add 3 teaspoons of ammonia at this time and 1 teaspoon of Seachem buffer.  Please post the numbers after allowing 10 minutes to circulate.  Don't forget to dissolve the buffer first before adding it.
       
      Ray  
       
      In a message dated 1/8/2015 4:14:26 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hi Ray!!

      I'm sorry I'm behind today. Remember me telling you that after I don't
      sleep for 3-4 night I just crash?
      Early this morning that happened. About 4 am, I died. Slept for about
      7 hours. The longest stretch of sleep I've had since Christmas.

      These are the numbers for the 55 gal;
      HPh 8, ammonia 0, nitrite 2, nitrate 40, GH 7, KH 5

      Peg
      peg@...


      Sent from my iPhone

      On Jan 8, 2015, at 7:10 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Very strange why it could be the same when adding more.  From the 2.0 ppm reading of the ammonia, it looks like it could use at least another full teaspoon, but this time do the same thing -- add 1/2 teaspoon ammonia, wait 10 minutes and test.  Post the number here and we'll see if another 1/2 teaspoon is called for.
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/8/2015 7:05:58 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Added 1/2 tsp  waited 10 min to test 
      Ammonia 2.   Nitrites 2

      Added another 1/2 tsp ammonia - same results l



      Sent from my iPhone

      On Jan 8, 2015, at 12:39 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Peg,
       
      While I think 1 more teaspoon of ammonia won't be too much, just add 1/2 teaspoon of ammonia, test it, and if it hasn't reached 3.0 ppm, then add the other 1/2 teaspoon ammonia.  Give a test result then, too.  We'll see what it looks like in the morning also, and take it up from there.
       
      Ray
       
       
       




       
       



       
       


       



       
       



       
       



       
       

       
       



       
       



       
       


      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56445 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/8/2015
      Subject: Re: 2nd round Updated Numbers 55 Gal snd 10 Gal 1/6/15u
      AOL Email
      The ammonia was at 2.0 before you added any, going by what you reported before you added any.  There must be some mistake in your testing or else there's been some miscommunication.  It would have to be higher if you added 1 teaspoon ammonia on top of having a level of 2.0 ppm, unless there's something I'm not understanding or being told about.  If you don't feel it's any higher than 2.0 ppm right now, then add another teaspoon ammonia.  That should bring it up no higher than 3.0 ppm unless you're not reading the test results properly.  After 10 minutes, test for both ammonia and nitrite.  Maybe the ammonia is being converted at a much faster rate than before, which an elevation in nitrite will show, but I'm not leaning in that direction right now.  BTW, if you ever see the ammonia level at zero in between these posts, as happened when you got behind, add some ammonia immediately without waiting for me, even if it's only one teaspoonful.  With no ammonia, the bacteria will starve, putting the cycle back to square one.
       
      Ray
          
       
      In a message dated 1/9/2015 12:32:30 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      After 10 min it was at 2. 
      Thank you Ray! Enjoy the rest of your evening!
      Peg

      Sent from my iPhone

      On Jan 8, 2015, at 8:44 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Okay, add one more teaspoon ammonia and that will be it for this evening.  Take a test for it now (after 10 minutes) and another test for it tomorrow morning, with nitrite, nitrate and KH tests in the morning too.
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/8/2015 8:41:20 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Ammonia count 2

      Sent from my iPhone

      On Jan 8, 2015, at 6:39 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Add one more teaspoon ammonia.  Post results for ammonia.
       
       
      In a message dated 1/8/2015 6:24:24 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      I copied all the text from early morning email and this even so all are in one place now!

       After 3 tsp ammonia and 1 tsp buffer- 
      Ammonia 2,  nitrites 2, KH 6


       Please include my messages with your replies. 
       
      Sorry to hear about you insomnia, but it's good you can still catch up on some sleep.  I'm guessing these numbers are before adding any ammonia today.  Add 3 teaspoons of ammonia at this time and 1 teaspoon of Seachem buffer.  Please post the numbers after allowing 10 minutes to circulate.  Don't forget to dissolve the buffer first before adding it.
       
      Ray  
       
      In a message dated 1/8/2015 4:14:26 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hi Ray!!

      I'm sorry I'm behind today. Remember me telling you that after I don't
      sleep for 3-4 night I just crash?
      Early this morning that happened. About 4 am, I died. Slept for about
      7 hours. The longest stretch of sleep I've had since Christmas.

      These are the numbers for the 55 gal;
      HPh 8, ammonia 0, nitrite 2, nitrate 40, GH 7, KH 5

      Peg
      peg@...


      Sent from my iPhone

      On Jan 8, 2015, at 7:10 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Very strange why it could be the same when adding more.  From the 2.0 ppm reading of the ammonia, it looks like it could use at least another full teaspoon, but this time do the same thing -- add 1/2 teaspoon ammonia, wait 10 minutes and test.  Post the number here and we'll see if another 1/2 teaspoon is called for.
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/8/2015 7:05:58 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Added 1/2 tsp  waited 10 min to test 
      Ammonia 2.   Nitrites 2

      Added another 1/2 tsp ammonia - same results l



      Sent from my iPhone

      On Jan 8, 2015, at 12:39 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Peg,
       
      While I think 1 more teaspoon of ammonia won't be too much, just add 1/2 teaspoon of ammonia, test it, and if it hasn't reached 3.0 ppm, then add the other 1/2 teaspoon ammonia.  Give a test result then, too.  We'll see what it looks like in the morning also, and take it up from there.
       
      Ray
       
       
       




       
       



       
       


       



       
       



       
       



       
       

       
       



       
       



       
       


      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56446 From: PAULA BROWN Date: 1/16/2015
      Subject: LED Light Question
      First of all I apologize for the probably very poor wording of this question.  We recently put LED lights on two of our tanks.  Because we have quite a few live plants in the tanks, I like to run the light for about 8 hours or so daily.  With these new LED lights, there are two different settings:  one that looks like a normal light and one that is a nighttime blue.  These don't run at the same time - one is for day and one for night.  What my question is is does the blue night light count as part of the 8 hours per day for the plants/fish?  The blue light looks really nice at night so I would like to keep it on the timer to run during the night but I don't want the tanks to get too much light.

      Thanks!

      Paula in Sylvania, Ohio
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56447 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 1/16/2015
      Subject: Re: LED Light Question
      Hi Paula,

        I see nothing wrong with the wording of your question! It is my understanding that the moonlights do not constitute part of the daily lighting plan for the plants-I also have some plants & I run my regular lights for 7 hours per day & then the moonlight LEDs cut in for another 4 hours during the evening.

      Just to clarify-by running the moonlights at night do you mean just in the late evening or all night long? Once mine go off the tank is pitch black until the morning.

        John<o)))<

      On 16 January 2015 at 20:47, PAULA BROWN paulabrown4480@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      First of all I apologize for the probably very poor wording of this question.  We recently put LED lights on two of our tanks.  Because we have quite a few live plants in the tanks, I like to run the light for about 8 hours or so daily.  With these new LED lights, there are two different settings:  one that looks like a normal light and one that is a nighttime blue.  These don't run at the same time - one is for day and one for night.  What my question is is does the blue night light count as part of the 8 hours per day for the plants/fish?  The blue light looks really nice at night so I would like to keep it on the timer to run during the night but I don't want the tanks to get too much light.

      Thanks!

      Paula in Sylvania, Ohio


      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56448 From: PAULA BROWN Date: 1/16/2015
      Subject: Re: LED Light Question
      Thanks John for the reply.  I normally just keep the blue nighttime lights on until I head upstairs to bed.  My husband falls asleep earlier than I do so they are normally on about four hours. 

      Paula in Sylvania, Ohio

      On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 at 7:33 PM, SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      Hi Paula,

        I see nothing wrong with the wording of your question! It is my understanding that the moonlights do not constitute part of the daily lighting plan for the plants-I also have some plants & I run my regular lights for 7 hours per day & then the moonlight LEDs cut in for another 4 hours during the evening.

      Just to clarify-by running the moonlights at night do you mean just in the late evening or all night long? Once mine go off the tank is pitch black until the morning.

        John<o)))<

      On 16 January 2015 at 20:47, PAULA BROWN paulabrown4480@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      First of all I apologize for the probably very poor wording of this question.  We recently put LED lights on two of our tanks.  Because we have quite a few live plants in the tanks, I like to run the light for about 8 hours or so daily.  With these new LED lights, there are two different settings:  one that looks like a normal light and one that is a nighttime blue.  These don't run at the same time - one is for day and one for night.  What my question is is does the blue night light count as part of the 8 hours per day for the plants/fish?  The blue light looks really nice at night so I would like to keep it on the timer to run during the night but I don't want the tanks to get too much light.

      Thanks!

      Paula in Sylvania, Ohio



      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56449 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 1/16/2015
      Subject: Re: LED Light Question
      Sounds like a very similar lighting regime to mine, what fish do you keep? I have some large Goldfish & the blue lights make the orange fish look black & the silver fish look blue.

        John<o)))<

      On 17 January 2015 at 00:43, PAULA BROWN paulabrown4480@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      Thanks John for the reply.  I normally just keep the blue nighttime lights on until I head upstairs to bed.  My husband falls asleep earlier than I do so they are normally on about four hours. 

      Paula in Sylvania, Ohio

      On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 at 7:33 PM, SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      Hi Paula,

        I see nothing wrong with the wording of your question! It is my understanding that the moonlights do not constitute part of the daily lighting plan for the plants-I also have some plants & I run my regular lights for 7 hours per day & then the moonlight LEDs cut in for another 4 hours during the evening.

      Just to clarify-by running the moonlights at night do you mean just in the late evening or all night long? Once mine go off the tank is pitch black until the morning.

        John<o)))<

      On 16 January 2015 at 20:47, PAULA BROWN paulabrown4480@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      First of all I apologize for the probably very poor wording of this question.  We recently put LED lights on two of our tanks.  Because we have quite a few live plants in the tanks, I like to run the light for about 8 hours or so daily.  With these new LED lights, there are two different settings:  one that looks like a normal light and one that is a nighttime blue.  These don't run at the same time - one is for day and one for night.  What my question is is does the blue night light count as part of the 8 hours per day for the plants/fish?  The blue light looks really nice at night so I would like to keep it on the timer to run during the night but I don't want the tanks to get too much light.

      Thanks!

      Paula in Sylvania, Ohio




      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56450 From: PAULA BROWN Date: 1/16/2015
      Subject: Re: LED Light Question
      In our newest tank, we have male guppies and Juli Cory Cats.  In the 30 gallon, we have Red Shirt Tetras, a Spotted Raphael and a castaway Shunk Botia (who is doing very well and staying away from everybody else in his new cave - the store said that they would take him back since I did not really adopt him if he starts getting aggressive).  A lot of live plants.  Almost too many live plants I fear.  I need to research more how to trim them since the fish seem like they are having to fight their way through them (especially the two male Betta's in their five gallon tanks).

      Paula in Sylvania, Ohio

      On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 at 8:45 PM, SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      Sounds like a very similar lighting regime to mine, what fish do you keep? I have some large Goldfish & the blue lights make the orange fish look black & the silver fish look blue.

        John<o)))<

      On 17 January 2015 at 00:43, PAULA BROWN paulabrown4480@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      Thanks John for the reply.  I normally just keep the blue nighttime lights on until I head upstairs to bed.  My husband falls asleep earlier than I do so they are normally on about four hours. 

      Paula in Sylvania, Ohio

      On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 at 7:33 PM, SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      Hi Paula,

        I see nothing wrong with the wording of your question! It is my understanding that the moonlights do not constitute part of the daily lighting plan for the plants-I also have some plants & I run my regular lights for 7 hours per day & then the moonlight LEDs cut in for another 4 hours during the evening.

      Just to clarify-by running the moonlights at night do you mean just in the late evening or all night long? Once mine go off the tank is pitch black until the morning.

        John<o)))<

      On 16 January 2015 at 20:47, PAULA BROWN paulabrown4480@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      First of all I apologize for the probably very poor wording of this question.  We recently put LED lights on two of our tanks.  Because we have quite a few live plants in the tanks, I like to run the light for about 8 hours or so daily.  With these new LED lights, there are two different settings:  one that looks like a normal light and one that is a nighttime blue.  These don't run at the same time - one is for day and one for night.  What my question is is does the blue night light count as part of the 8 hours per day for the plants/fish?  The blue light looks really nice at night so I would like to keep it on the timer to run during the night but I don't want the tanks to get too much light.

      Thanks!

      Paula in Sylvania, Ohio





      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56451 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 1/17/2015
      Subject: Re: LED Light Question
      I was reading about the Spotted Raphael, seems they tear up the nets if you try to catch them! There are several plant experts on here who should be able to help with pruning advice for you-hopefully someone will jump in . . .

        John<o)))<

      On 17 January 2015 at 02:42, PAULA BROWN paulabrown4480@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      In our newest tank, we have male guppies and Juli Cory Cats.  In the 30 gallon, we have Red Shirt Tetras, a Spotted Raphael and a castaway Shunk Botia (who is doing very well and staying away from everybody else in his new cave - the store said that they would take him back since I did not really adopt him if he starts getting aggressive).  A lot of live plants.  Almost too many live plants I fear.  I need to research more how to trim them since the fish seem like they are having to fight their way through them (especially the two male Betta's in their five gallon tanks).

      Paula in Sylvania, Ohio

      On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 at 8:45 PM, SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      Sounds like a very similar lighting regime to mine, what fish do you keep? I have some large Goldfish & the blue lights make the orange fish look black & the silver fish look blue.

        John<o)))<

      On 17 January 2015 at 00:43, PAULA BROWN paulabrown4480@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      Thanks John for the reply.  I normally just keep the blue nighttime lights on until I head upstairs to bed.  My husband falls asleep earlier than I do so they are normally on about four hours. 

      Paula in Sylvania, Ohio

      On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 at 7:33 PM, SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      Hi Paula,

        I see nothing wrong with the wording of your question! It is my understanding that the moonlights do not constitute part of the daily lighting plan for the plants-I also have some plants & I run my regular lights for 7 hours per day & then the moonlight LEDs cut in for another 4 hours during the evening.

      Just to clarify-by running the moonlights at night do you mean just in the late evening or all night long? Once mine go off the tank is pitch black until the morning.

        John<o)))<

      On 16 January 2015 at 20:47, PAULA BROWN paulabrown4480@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      First of all I apologize for the probably very poor wording of this question.  We recently put LED lights on two of our tanks.  Because we have quite a few live plants in the tanks, I like to run the light for about 8 hours or so daily.  With these new LED lights, there are two different settings:  one that looks like a normal light and one that is a nighttime blue.  These don't run at the same time - one is for day and one for night.  What my question is is does the blue night light count as part of the 8 hours per day for the plants/fish?  The blue light looks really nice at night so I would like to keep it on the timer to run during the night but I don't want the tanks to get too much light.

      Thanks!

      Paula in Sylvania, Ohio






      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56452 From: Just Date: 1/21/2015
      Subject: Re: aquaticlife
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56453 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 1/22/2015
      Subject: Fwd: [AquaticLife] Re: aquaticlife
      It appears spam is being sent from this account or for this account 

      Sent from my iPhone

      Begin forwarded message:

      From: "'Just' Too_fishy@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
      Date: January 22, 2015 at 12:51:53 AM EST
      To: "aquaticlife" <aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com>
      Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: aquaticlife
      Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56454 From: Harry Leverett Date: 1/24/2015
      Subject: Columnaris
      Hey Ray I need some expert advice.
      I just lost two tanks of fish to what I suspect is Columnaris. I first saw what looked like a mold growing on the fish wednesday , wasn’t there tuesday night but wednesday afternoon it was very noticeable. I started a treatment of Melafix because thats what was suggested at LFS and I had no idea what the disease was.

      Within 48 hours two tanks of fish were dead. I’ve never seen anything move so fast
      I’ve drained and moved the 10 gal infected tank outside filled with clorox / water solution , rinsed well and let dry in the sun. I filled it this evening with water and a heavy doe of Prime and will sit over night , then drain and let the sun hit it again until dry.

      The 55 gal tank,I’d rather not have to move unless necessary. I’ve drained and removed all the gravel. My plan is to pull the fluvial apart remove all the media, reinstall and fill the tank with clorox/water and let it circulate for a day , drain rinse well and let dry for a good while ( no hurry now).
      Does that sound like a plan or do I need to go a different route.

      Thanks Harry
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56455 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/24/2015
      Subject: Re: Columnaris
      AOL Email
      Hi Harry,
       
      Sorry to hear your fish having this problem, and sorry too for your receiving this bad advice from your LFS.  Losing two tanks of fish is not pleasant.  Yes, Columnaris is usually a fast and aggressive disease.  To help in diagnosing this, could you also describe it as a milky white coating/patch -- but not fuzzy like a fungus?  Assuming your fish had Columnaris/Flexibacteria, this is a gram-negative pathogen (caused by any one of 28 different bacteria and 91 strains within these 28 bacteria species), Melafix would not at all be the treatment of choice, as this medication primarily treats gram-positive bacterial diseases.  Along these same lines, if this were the route to take, Pimafix would have been the better choice by far as it primarily treats gram-negative pathogens -- but not because it's the best route to take in combating this disease (as it's not).   
       
      While chlorine bleach is most effective as a topical solution/bath in killing Columnaris bacteria, it needs to be used at a proper strength to be most effective.  These pathogens are especially virulent and resistant to eradication; they can survive freezing in liquid nitrogen for up to three weeks and still be viable.  Still this plan is one way to go if you highly suspect this disease is in both the 10 gallon and the 55 gallon and you have no fish in either tank at this time.  If you have fish in either tank though, it would be much easier to just use a proper treatment for eliminating the disease.
       
      I have no idea as to how much bleach you had in mind to add to your tanks in the effort to sterilize your tanks, but to make sure, I would use about 1 cup of Chlorox per 10 gallons, for at least 24 hours.  I normally use 1 cup of chlorine bleach per 20 gallons as a standing sterilization bath for all my equipment, at all times, using a swimming pool chlorine testing kit to keep the solution at a level where I want it.  I constantly maintain this bath 365 days a year as a disease control for any equipment that's used in multiple tanks, including my water change hoses.    
       
      I'm not sure completely drying the tank will eliminate the pathogen, but of course you don't want any residual Chlorox in the water to adversely affect any fish you add.  I don't very much that drying will eliminate the bacteria if they're present.  Still, the small amount of chlorine in any bleach solution left in the tank will dissipate after 24 hours.  A problem with using a Chlorox bath in sterilizing a tank is that not only do you need to fill the tank to it's extreme top lip in assuring contacting any bacteria that have been in contact with your tank's walls above the normal water level, but the top rim of the tank should be wiped down with a bleach-soaked cloth to prevent any bacteria from being overlooked.  This goes also for the hood that sits on top of the tank, which could now harbor bacteria that got bounced up under there by aeration. I don't see the need for the waste of the Prime though If you're only going to drain the tank afterwards and refill it again.   
       
      But, like I said, if you have fish in any of your tanks now and just plan to move them while treating their tank(s), the pathogens are just going to hitch-hike along for a ride with these fish on their mucus coatings to any other tank you move the fish to.  It's best to treat the fish (not the tank) if you already have fish that have been in contact with this disease.  Use a combination of Nitrofurazone (as either Furan II or as Jungle Lab's Fungus Clear Tank Buddies) and Kanamycin Sulfate (as Seachem's Kanaplex).  Follow the directions on the meds and complete them for the full time stated.  Even repeat if needed.  The Fungus Clear may be a bit better than the Furan II, only as it also contains Potassium Dichromate, but either will be effective as they're both the best treatment of choice as broad-spectrum, gram-negative antibiotics against Columnaris.  Don't hesitate to get back here if I didn't cover everything you need.
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/24/2015 6:19:39 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
      Hey Ray I need some expert advice.
      I just lost two tanks of fish to what I suspect is Columnaris. I first saw what looked like a mold growing on the fish wednesday , wasn’t there tuesday night but wednesday afternoon it was very noticeable. I started a treatment of Melafix because thats what was suggested at LFS and I had no idea what the disease was.

      Within 48 hours two tanks of fish were dead. I’ve never seen anything move so fast
      I’ve drained and moved the 10 gal infected tank outside filled with clorox / water solution , rinsed well and let dry in the sun. I filled it this evening with water and a heavy doe of Prime and will sit over night , then drain and let the sun hit it again until dry.

      The 55 gal tank,I’d rather not have to move unless necessary. I’ve drained and removed all the gravel. My plan is to pull the fluvial apart remove all the media, reinstall and fill the tank with clorox/water and let it circulate for a day , drain rinse well and let dry for a good while ( no hurry now).
      Does that sound like a plan or do I need to go a different route.

      Thanks Harry

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      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56456 From: Harry Leverett Date: 1/25/2015
      Subject: Re: Columnaris

      Morning all !

      Ray I soaked the small tank in 1/2 cup bleach per gal. of water but only for an hour. I’ll redo it today at the 1 cup to 10 gal and let sit and the same with the big tank to the rim and wipe down everything with bleach.

      I’m sure I contaminated the big tank with the python when changing water.
      I never even thought about it. I was planning on soaking the python in a trash can with bleach. I have a small transfer pump so to circulate bleach through the hose and back to the trash can. I can’t remember if the hose is 50' or 75’, either way theres a bunch of it.

      How do you handle your water changing equipment, soaking, rinsing , storage? 
      The soaking i don’t see as a problem but the rinsing would seem to be a huge task as far as getting rid of all the bleach.

      What would be a good list of “should have on hand at all times” as far as medicines, treatments and preventives ?

      Thanks again for all the help
      Harry









      On Jan 24, 2015, at 7:16 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


      Hi Harry,
       
      Sorry to hear your fish having this problem, and sorry too for your receiving this bad advice from your LFS.  Losing two tanks of fish is not pleasant.  Yes, Columnaris is usually a fast and aggressive disease.  To help in diagnosing this, could you also describe it as a milky white coating/patch -- but not fuzzy like a fungus?  Assuming your fish had Columnaris/Flexibacteria, this is a gram-negative pathogen (caused by any one of 28 different bacteria and 91 strains within these 28 bacteria species), Melafix would not at all be the treatment of choice, as this medication primarily treats gram-positive bacterial diseases.  Along these same lines, if this were the route to take, Pimafix would have been the better choice by far as it primarily treats gram-negative pathogens -- but not because it's the best route to take in combating this disease (as it's not).   
       
      While chlorine bleach is most effective as a topical solution/bath in killing Columnaris bacteria, it needs to be used at a proper strength to be most effective.  These pathogens are especially virulent and resistant to eradication; they can survive freezing in liquid nitrogen for up to three weeks and still be viable.  Still this plan is one way to go if you highly suspect this disease is in both the 10 gallon and the 55 gallon and you have no fish in either tank at this time.  If you have fish in either tank though, it would be much easier to just use a proper treatment for eliminating the disease.
       
      I have no idea as to how much bleach you had in mind to add to your tanks in the effort to sterilize your tanks, but to make sure, I would use about 1 cup of Chlorox per 10 gallons, for at least 24 hours.  I normally use 1 cup of chlorine bleach per 20 gallons as a standing sterilization bath for all my equipment, at all times, using a swimming pool chlorine testing kit to keep the solution at a level where I want it.  I constantly maintain this bath 365 days a year as a disease control for any equipment that's used in multiple tanks, including my water change hoses.    
       
      I'm not sure completely drying the tank will eliminate the pathogen, but of course you don't want any residual Chlorox in the water to adversely affect any fish you add.  I don't very much that drying will eliminate the bacteria if they're present.  Still, the small amount of chlorine in any bleach solution left in the tank will dissipate after 24 hours.  A problem with using a Chlorox bath in sterilizing a tank is that not only do you need to fill the tank to it's extreme top lip in assuring contacting any bacteria that have been in contact with your tank's walls above the normal water level, but the top rim of the tank should be wiped down with a bleach-soaked cloth to prevent any bacteria from being overlooked.  This goes also for the hood that sits on top of the tank, which could now harbor bacteria that got bounced up under there by aeration. I don't see the need for the waste of the Prime though If you're only going to drain the tank afterwards and refill it again.   
       
      But, like I said, if you have fish in any of your tanks now and just plan to move them while treating their tank(s), the pathogens are just going to hitch-hike along for a ride with these fish on their mucus coatings to any other tank you move the fish to.  It's best to treat the fish (not the tank) if you already have fish that have been in contact with this disease.  Use a combination of Nitrofurazone (as either Furan II or as Jungle Lab's Fungus Clear Tank Buddies) and Kanamycin Sulfate (as Seachem's Kanaplex).  Follow the directions on the meds and complete them for the full time stated.  Even repeat if needed.  The Fungus Clear may be a bit better than the Furan II, only as it also contains Potassium Dichromate, but either will be effective as they're both the best treatment of choice as broad-spectrum, gram-negative antibiotics against Columnaris.  Don't hesitate to get back here if I didn't cover everything you need.
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/24/2015 6:19:39 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
      Hey Ray I need some expert advice.
      I just lost two tanks of fish to what I suspect is Columnaris. I first saw what looked like a mold growing on the fish wednesday , wasn’t there tuesday night but wednesday afternoon it was very noticeable. I started a treatment of Melafix because thats what was suggested at LFS and I had no idea what the disease was.

      Within 48 hours two tanks of fish were dead. I’ve never seen anything move so fast
      I’ve drained and moved the 10 gal infected tank outside filled with clorox / water solution , rinsed well and let dry in the sun. I filled it this evening with water and a heavy doe of Prime and will sit over night , then drain and let the sun hit it again until dry.

      The 55 gal tank,I’d rather not have to move unless necessary. I’ve drained and removed all the gravel. My plan is to pull the fluvial apart remove all the media, reinstall and fill the tank with clorox/water and let it circulate for a day , drain rinse well and let dry for a good while ( no hurry now).
      Does that sound like a plan or do I need to go a different route.

      Thanks Harry

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      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56457 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/25/2015
      Subject: Re: Columnaris
      AOL Email
      Morning Harry,
       
      A half cup bleach per gallon is overkill, and at that rate you'd need to add 110 cups to the 55 gallon tank.  That comes out to nearly 3 1/2 gallons of bleach.  One cup per 10 gallons is quite strong.  Also what enters this is the time allowed for it to be in contact with all the tank's and the equipment's surfaces, as the longer the duration, the greater there disinfectant propensity.  When soaking the Python, water needs to fill the inside of the hose completely as it's being circulated,  As for rinsing it, you just attach it to your faucet as you would for filling the tank and just let fresh water flush it out down the drain.
       
      As for my water changing equipment, first I need to clarify that I use my private well water and not my tap water.  This now tells you that I can't use it directly from the well as it's far too cold -- SO, I have four tanks (yes, fish-less "aquariums") I use for water storage equaling about 500 gallons to allow the temperature to equalize the room temperature before pumping the water into my fish tanks.  The water is pumped directly into these holding tanks for "aging" (temperature equalization); I heat the hatchery via a house-gas space heater rather than using individual electric heaters for each of my tanks, which would cost a small fortune in monthly utility bills if I used Ebo Jagers or Visi-Therms.
       
      That said, I have two water pumps, with two sets of hoses, to move my water.  One set to pump water from my holding tanks to my aquaria via an overhead system of PVC piping, fast-disconnect fittings over the tanks and dropper hoses from the PVC connection to the individual tanks as needed.  This requires no sterilization as nothing is ever in contact with the aquarium water.
       
      Then, I have another water pump and set of hoses used to pump out the water from any tank I select.  Much of the time, I can pump down tank number 2, 3, 4, 5, etc., after first pumping down tank number 1, and then proceed to refill each preceding tank right behind the next tank that's being drawn down -- both at the same time -- to speed the process of PWCing.  However, if & when I least suspect there's any issue going on in a tank, the drain hose's first 6 feet are submerged into that 20 gallons of sterilization "bath" I mentioned as constantly keeping available at all times, and then the pump is turned on to fill the hoses (and the pump's internal parts)  with the chlorine bleach solution to let it stand at least overnight if not longer.  This thoroughly sterilizes the water removal system for it's next use.  The drain hoses and pump are hooked up at all times, the end that's put in the aquariums is always submersed in the bleach bath when not in use and the outlet end of this hose is always fixed to the utility tub to drain (into the side opposite the standing bleach bath) any time it's in use.  The 20 gallon sterilization bath is one side of a double utility tub I have in the hatchery for cleaning filters and doing any other fish maintenance chores.  This one side is always filled with bleach water solution where I'll submerse anything in it that needs it, including nets, but you need to be careful of not allowing nets to soak for too long of a period at any one time as even though most are made with synthetics they may be stitched at the seams with cotton which will disintegrate from long exposure.  I know this may be impractical for Python users, but maybe this method can be adapted somehow.
       
      It's always good to have a fish "medicine chest" available at all times, as anyone may spot a disease at any inopportune time -- in the evening when the fish stores are closed.  These medications should be kept in a refrigerator at all times until needed.  I have a separate refrigerator dedicated for hatchery use, where I store dry fish foods, live fish foods, medications, buffers, test reagents, etc., and use the freezer part for my frozen fish foods.  A hobbyist having a somewhat smaller set up could get one of those small dorm refrigerators.  Some medications to have at all times -- besides having salt on hand -- are Furan II (as it has many applications), Kanaplex (as it has uses separate from combining with Furan II -- as it's one of the few highly absorbable antibiotics available, it's extremely useful for internal issues), Acriflavin, Minocycline (if Kanamycin can't be found), Maracyn (for any gram-positive bacteria disease) and Fungus Clear (which use is not limited only to Fungal issues) to name a few of the most useful ones.  Then, depending on what fish one is keeping, and their susceptibility to certain diseases primarily associated with them, Metronidazole, Tetracycline (if the aquarium water does not exceed pH 7.5), PraziPro and Clout are always good to keep on hand.  Jungle Lab's Internal Parasite Guard is handy too.  Medications are like insurance policies -- you don't really want to use them, but they're the best thing to have on hand -- at all times -- when a problem comes up.      
       
      Preventatives ???   As we can never know what any new fish may have been subjected to, quarantining them is the best way of assuring that any disease they're carrying is not transmitted to your other fishes.  For fish that you've been maintaining all along, there's nothing like large frequent PWC's to keep the fish stress-free of organic waste build-up, which is a prime reason for them becoming susceptible to diseases.  Many pathogens coexist with our fish at all times, without issue (case in point -- Ich), but when they get stressed they're open to contracting any disease pathogens that may be present.  
       
      Ray   
       
       
       
      In a message dated 1/25/2015 6:27:43 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       


      Morning all !

      Ray I soaked the small tank in 1/2 cup bleach per gal. of water but only for an hour. I’ll redo it today at the 1 cup to 10 gal and let sit and the same with the big tank to the rim and wipe down everything with bleach.

      I’m sure I contaminated the big tank with the python when changing water.
      I never even thought about it. I was planning on soaking the python in a trash can with bleach. I have a small transfer pump so to circulate bleach through the hose and back to the trash can. I can’t remember if the hose is 50' or 75’, either way theres a bunch of it.

      How do you handle your water changing equipment, soaking, rinsing , storage? 
      The soaking i don’t see as a problem but the rinsing would seem to be a huge task as far as getting rid of all the bleach.

      What would be a good list of “should have on hand at all times” as far as medicines, treatments and preventives ?

      Thanks again for all the help
      Harry









      On Jan 24, 2015, at 7:16 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


      Hi Harry,
       
      Sorry to hear your fish having this problem, and sorry too for your receiving this bad advice from your LFS.  Losing two tanks of fish is not pleasant.  Yes, Columnaris is usually a fast and aggressive disease.  To help in diagnosing this, could you also describe it as a milky white coating/patch -- but not fuzzy like a fungus?  Assuming your fish had Columnaris/Flexibacteria, this is a gram-negative pathogen (caused by any one of 28 different bacteria and 91 strains within these 28 bacteria species), Melafix would not at all be the treatment of choice, as this medication primarily treats gram-positive bacterial diseases.  Along these same lines, if this were the route to take, Pimafix would have been the better choice by far as it primarily treats gram-negative pathogens -- but not because it's the best route to take in combating this disease (as it's not).   
       
      While chlorine bleach is most effective as a topical solution/bath in killing Columnaris bacteria, it needs to be used at a proper strength to be most effective.  These pathogens are especially virulent and resistant to eradication; they can survive freezing in liquid nitrogen for up to three weeks and still be viable.  Still this plan is one way to go if you highly suspect this disease is in both the 10 gallon and the 55 gallon and you have no fish in either tank at this time.  If you have fish in either tank though, it would be much easier to just use a proper treatment for eliminating the disease.
       
      I have no idea as to how much bleach you had in mind to add to your tanks in the effort to sterilize your tanks, but to make sure, I would use about 1 cup of Chlorox per 10 gallons, for at least 24 hours.  I normally use 1 cup of chlorine bleach per 20 gallons as a standing sterilization bath for all my equipment, at all times, using a swimming pool chlorine testing kit to keep the solution at a level where I want it.  I constantly maintain this bath 365 days a year as a disease control for any equipment that's used in multiple tanks, including my water change hoses.    
       
      I'm not sure completely drying the tank will eliminate the pathogen, but of course you don't want any residual Chlorox in the water to adversely affect any fish you add.  I don't very much that drying will eliminate the bacteria if they're present.  Still, the small amount of chlorine in any bleach solution left in the tank will dissipate after 24 hours.  A problem with using a Chlorox bath in sterilizing a tank is that not only do you need to fill the tank to it's extreme top lip in assuring contacting any bacteria that have been in contact with your tank's walls above the normal water level, but the top rim of the tank should be wiped down with a bleach-soaked cloth to prevent any bacteria from being overlooked.  This goes also for the hood that sits on top of the tank, which could now harbor bacteria that got bounced up under there by aeration. I don't see the need for the waste of the Prime though If you're only going to drain the tank afterwards and refill it again.   
       
      But, like I said, if you have fish in any of your tanks now and just plan to move them while treating their tank(s), the pathogens are just going to hitch-hike along for a ride with these fish on their mucus coatings to any other tank you move the fish to.  It's best to treat the fish (not the tank) if you already have fish that have been in contact with this disease.  Use a combination of Nitrofurazone (as either Furan II or as Jungle Lab's Fungus Clear Tank Buddies) and Kanamycin Sulfate (as Seachem's Kanaplex).  Follow the directions on the meds and complete them for the full time stated.  Even repeat if needed.  The Fungus Clear may be a bit better than the Furan II, only as it also contains Potassium Dichromate, but either will be effective as they're both the best treatment of choice as broad-spectrum, gram-negative antibiotics against Columnaris.  Don't hesitate to get back here if I didn't cover everything you need.
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/24/2015 6:19:39 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
      Hey Ray I need some expert advice.
      I just lost two tanks of fish to what I suspect is Columnaris. I first saw what looked like a mold growing on the fish wednesday , wasn’t there tuesday night but wednesday afternoon it was very noticeable. I started a treatment of Melafix because thats what was suggested at LFS and I had no idea what the disease was.

      Within 48 hours two tanks of fish were dead. I’ve never seen anything move so fast
      I’ve drained and moved the 10 gal infected tank outside filled with clorox / water solution , rinsed well and let dry in the sun. I filled it this evening with water and a heavy doe of Prime and will sit over night , then drain and let the sun hit it again until dry.

      The 55 gal tank,I’d rather not have to move unless necessary. I’ve drained and removed all the gravel. My plan is to pull the fluvial apart remove all the media, reinstall and fill the tank with clorox/water and let it circulate for a day , drain rinse well and let dry for a good while ( no hurry now).
      Does that sound like a plan or do I need to go a different route.

      Thanks Harry

      ------------------------------------

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      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56458 From: Harry Leverett Date: 1/25/2015
      Subject: Re: Columnaris
      Thanks again Ray for the help.
      ! cup to 10 sounds great to me. Just printed this email and hung it on my bulletin board for future reference ;)

      I guess I sanitize the python between each tank for now and figure out something different as I go. I was concerned about getting all the bleach off but sounds pretty simple.

      Have you ever thought about writing a book, I’ll buy a dozen copies ( give them for Christmas presents )

      Thanks again
      Harry

      On Jan 25, 2015, at 8:38 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


      Morning Harry,
       
      A half cup bleach per gallon is overkill, and at that rate you'd need to add 110 cups to the 55 gallon tank.  That comes out to nearly 3 1/2 gallons of bleach.  One cup per 10 gallons is quite strong.  Also what enters this is the time allowed for it to be in contact with all the tank's and the equipment's surfaces, as the longer the duration, the greater there disinfectant propensity.  When soaking the Python, water needs to fill the inside of the hose completely as it's being circulated,  As for rinsing it, you just attach it to your faucet as you would for filling the tank and just let fresh water flush it out down the drain.
       
      As for my water changing equipment, first I need to clarify that I use my private well water and not my tap water.  This now tells you that I can't use it directly from the well as it's far too cold -- SO, I have four tanks (yes, fish-less "aquariums") I use for water storage equaling about 500 gallons to allow the temperature to equalize the room temperature before pumping the water into my fish tanks.  The water is pumped directly into these holding tanks for "aging" (temperature equalization); I heat the hatchery via a house-gas space heater rather than using individual electric heaters for each of my tanks, which would cost a small fortune in monthly utility bills if I used Ebo Jagers or Visi-Therms.
       
      That said, I have two water pumps, with two sets of hoses, to move my water.  One set to pump water from my holding tanks to my aquaria via an overhead system of PVC piping, fast-disconnect fittings over the tanks and dropper hoses from the PVC connection to the individual tanks as needed.  This requires no sterilization as nothing is ever in contact with the aquarium water.
       
      Then, I have another water pump and set of hoses used to pump out the water from any tank I select.  Much of the time, I can pump down tank number 2, 3, 4, 5, etc., after first pumping down tank number 1, and then proceed to refill each preceding tank right behind the next tank that's being drawn down -- both at the same time -- to speed the process of PWCing.  However, if & when I least suspect there's any issue going on in a tank, the drain hose's first 6 feet are submerged into that 20 gallons of sterilization "bath" I mentioned as constantly keeping available at all times, and then the pump is turned on to fill the hoses (and the pump's internal parts)  with the chlorine bleach solution to let it stand at least overnight if not longer.  This thoroughly sterilizes the water removal system for it's next use.  The drain hoses and pump are hooked up at all times, the end that's put in the aquariums is always submersed in the bleach bath when not in use and the outlet end of this hose is always fixed to the utility tub to drain (into the side opposite the standing bleach bath) any time it's in use.  The 20 gallon sterilization bath is one side of a double utility tub I have in the hatchery for cleaning filters and doing any other fish maintenance chores.  This one side is always filled with bleach water solution where I'll submerse anything in it that needs it, including nets, but you need to be careful of not allowing nets to soak for too long of a period at any one time as even though most are made with synthetics they may be stitched at the seams with cotton which will disintegrate from long exposure.  I know this may be impractical for Python users, but maybe this method can be adapted somehow.
       
      It's always good to have a fish "medicine chest" available at all times, as anyone may spot a disease at any inopportune time -- in the evening when the fish stores are closed.  These medications should be kept in a refrigerator at all times until needed.  I have a separate refrigerator dedicated for hatchery use, where I store dry fish foods, live fish foods, medications, buffers, test reagents, etc., and use the freezer part for my frozen fish foods.  A hobbyist having a somewhat smaller set up could get one of those small dorm refrigerators.  Some medications to have at all times -- besides having salt on hand -- are Furan II (as it has many applications), Kanaplex (as it has uses separate from combining with Furan II -- as it's one of the few highly absorbable antibiotics available, it's extremely useful for internal issues), Acriflavin, Minocycline (if Kanamycin can't be found), Maracyn (for any gram-positive bacteria disease) and Fungus Clear (which use is not limited only to Fungal issues) to name a few of the most useful ones.  Then, depending on what fish one is keeping, and their susceptibility to certain diseases primarily associated with them, Metronidazole, Tetracycline (if the aquarium water does not exceed pH 7.5), PraziPro and Clout are always good to keep on hand.  Jungle Lab's Internal Parasite Guard is handy too.  Medications are like insurance policies -- you don't really want to use them, but they're the best thing to have on hand -- at all times -- when a problem comes up.      
       
      Preventatives ???   As we can never know what any new fish may have been subjected to, quarantining them is the best way of assuring that any disease they're carrying is not transmitted to your other fishes.  For fish that you've been maintaining all along, there's nothing like large frequent PWC's to keep the fish stress-free of organic waste build-up, which is a prime reason for them becoming susceptible to diseases.  Many pathogens coexist with our fish at all times, without issue (case in point -- Ich), but when they get stressed they're open to contracting any disease pathogens that may be present.  
       
      Ray   
       
       
       
      In a message dated 1/25/2015 6:27:43 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       


      Morning all !

      Ray I soaked the small tank in 1/2 cup bleach per gal. of water but only for an hour. I’ll redo it today at the 1 cup to 10 gal and let sit and the same with the big tank to the rim and wipe down everything with bleach.

      I’m sure I contaminated the big tank with the python when changing water.
      I never even thought about it. I was planning on soaking the python in a trash can with bleach. I have a small transfer pump so to circulate bleach through the hose and back to the trash can. I can’t remember if the hose is 50' or 75’, either way theres a bunch of it.

      How do you handle your water changing equipment, soaking, rinsing , storage? 
      The soaking i don’t see as a problem but the rinsing would seem to be a huge task as far as getting rid of all the bleach.

      What would be a good list of “should have on hand at all times” as far as medicines, treatments and preventives ?

      Thanks again for all the help
      Harry









      On Jan 24, 2015, at 7:16 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


      Hi Harry,
       
      Sorry to hear your fish having this problem, and sorry too for your receiving this bad advice from your LFS.  Losing two tanks of fish is not pleasant.  Yes, Columnaris is usually a fast and aggressive disease.  To help in diagnosing this, could you also describe it as a milky white coating/patch -- but not fuzzy like a fungus?  Assuming your fish had Columnaris/Flexibacteria, this is a gram-negative pathogen (caused by any one of 28 different bacteria and 91 strains within these 28 bacteria species), Melafix would not at all be the treatment of choice, as this medication primarily treats gram-positive bacterial diseases.  Along these same lines, if this were the route to take, Pimafix would have been the better choice by far as it primarily treats gram-negative pathogens -- but not because it's the best route to take in combating this disease (as it's not).   
       
      While chlorine bleach is most effective as a topical solution/bath in killing Columnaris bacteria, it needs to be used at a proper strength to be most effective.  These pathogens are especially virulent and resistant to eradication; they can survive freezing in liquid nitrogen for up to three weeks and still be viable.  Still this plan is one way to go if you highly suspect this disease is in both the 10 gallon and the 55 gallon and you have no fish in either tank at this time.  If you have fish in either tank though, it would be much easier to just use a proper treatment for eliminating the disease.
       
      I have no idea as to how much bleach you had in mind to add to your tanks in the effort to sterilize your tanks, but to make sure, I would use about 1 cup of Chlorox per 10 gallons, for at least 24 hours.  I normally use 1 cup of chlorine bleach per 20 gallons as a standing sterilization bath for all my equipment, at all times, using a swimming pool chlorine testing kit to keep the solution at a level where I want it.  I constantly maintain this bath 365 days a year as a disease control for any equipment that's used in multiple tanks, including my water change hoses.    
       
      I'm not sure completely drying the tank will eliminate the pathogen, but of course you don't want any residual Chlorox in the water to adversely affect any fish you add.  I don't very much that drying will eliminate the bacteria if they're present.  Still, the small amount of chlorine in any bleach solution left in the tank will dissipate after 24 hours.  A problem with using a Chlorox bath in sterilizing a tank is that not only do you need to fill the tank to it's extreme top lip in assuring contacting any bacteria that have been in contact with your tank's walls above the normal water level, but the top rim of the tank should be wiped down with a bleach-soaked cloth to prevent any bacteria from being overlooked.  This goes also for the hood that sits on top of the tank, which could now harbor bacteria that got bounced up under there by aeration. I don't see the need for the waste of the Prime though If you're only going to drain the tank afterwards and refill it again.   
       
      But, like I said, if you have fish in any of your tanks now and just plan to move them while treating their tank(s), the pathogens are just going to hitch-hike along for a ride with these fish on their mucus coatings to any other tank you move the fish to.  It's best to treat the fish (not the tank) if you already have fish that have been in contact with this disease.  Use a combination of Nitrofurazone (as either Furan II or as Jungle Lab's Fungus Clear Tank Buddies) and Kanamycin Sulfate (as Seachem's Kanaplex).  Follow the directions on the meds and complete them for the full time stated.  Even repeat if needed.  The Fungus Clear may be a bit better than the Furan II, only as it also contains Potassium Dichromate, but either will be effective as they're both the best treatment of choice as broad-spectrum, gram-negative antibiotics against Columnaris.  Don't hesitate to get back here if I didn't cover everything you need.
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/24/2015 6:19:39 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
      Hey Ray I need some expert advice.
      I just lost two tanks of fish to what I suspect is Columnaris. I first saw what looked like a mold growing on the fish wednesday , wasn’t there tuesday night but wednesday afternoon it was very noticeable. I started a treatment of Melafix because thats what was suggested at LFS and I had no idea what the disease was.

      Within 48 hours two tanks of fish were dead. I’ve never seen anything move so fast
      I’ve drained and moved the 10 gal infected tank outside filled with clorox / water solution , rinsed well and let dry in the sun. I filled it this evening with water and a heavy doe of Prime and will sit over night , then drain and let the sun hit it again until dry.

      The 55 gal tank,I’d rather not have to move unless necessary. I’ve drained and removed all the gravel. My plan is to pull the fluvial apart remove all the media, reinstall and fill the tank with clorox/water and let it circulate for a day , drain rinse well and let dry for a good while ( no hurry now).
      Does that sound like a plan or do I need to go a different route.

      Thanks Harry

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      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56459 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/25/2015
      Subject: Re: Columnaris
      AOL Email
      Harry, I'm only too glad to help; you're quite welcome.  As for any residual Chlorox, remember that any small amount not being rinsed out will dissipate (as chlorine gas) within 24 hours -- so as long as you don't add fish the same day as you fill your tank, things should be perfectly safe to add fish by the following day.  Well, I used to write a lot for my now defunct aquarium club, as editor of their monthly bulletin, this was many years ago.  I have thought about writing occasionally for one of the national aquarium magazines, but I just never seem to get around to it even though there's one topic in particular I've had in mind for this for several years now.  I do still write sometimes for the aquarium club I've now been in (for almost 25 years).  I doubt I'll ever write a book < g
      >, but it's a nice thought.  BTW, I just now looked back
      over my last reply to you and already found two typos -- without going any further than the first paragraph (LOL)!
       
      Best,
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/25/2015 10:25:55 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Thanks again Ray for the help.

      ! cup to 10 sounds great to me. Just printed this email and hung it on my bulletin board for future reference ;)

      I guess I sanitize the python between each tank for now and figure out something different as I go. I was concerned about getting all the bleach off but sounds pretty simple.

      Have you ever thought about writing a book, I’ll buy a dozen copies ( give them for Christmas presents )

      Thanks again
      Harry

      On Jan 25, 2015, at 8:38 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


      Morning Harry,
       
      A half cup bleach per gallon is overkill, and at that rate you'd need to add 110 cups to the 55 gallon tank.  That comes out to nearly 3 1/2 gallons of bleach.  One cup per 10 gallons is quite strong.  Also what enters this is the time allowed for it to be in contact with all the tank's and the equipment's surfaces, as the longer the duration, the greater there disinfectant propensity.  When soaking the Python, water needs to fill the inside of the hose completely as it's being circulated,  As for rinsing it, you just attach it to your faucet as you would for filling the tank and just let fresh water flush it out down the drain.
       
      As for my water changing equipment, first I need to clarify that I use my private well water and not my tap water.  This now tells you that I can't use it directly from the well as it's far too cold -- SO, I have four tanks (yes, fish-less "aquariums") I use for water storage equaling about 500 gallons to allow the temperature to equalize the room temperature before pumping the water into my fish tanks.  The water is pumped directly into these holding tanks for "aging" (temperature equalization); I heat the hatchery via a house-gas space heater rather than using individual electric heaters for each of my tanks, which would cost a small fortune in monthly utility bills if I used Ebo Jagers or Visi-Therms.
       
      That said, I have two water pumps, with two sets of hoses, to move my water.  One set to pump water from my holding tanks to my aquaria via an overhead system of PVC piping, fast-disconnect fittings over the tanks and dropper hoses from the PVC connection to the individual tanks as needed.  This requires no sterilization as nothing is ever in contact with the aquarium water.
       
      Then, I have another water pump and set of hoses used to pump out the water from any tank I select.  Much of the time, I can pump down tank number 2, 3, 4, 5, etc., after first pumping down tank number 1, and then proceed to refill each preceding tank right behind the next tank that's being drawn down -- both at the same time -- to speed the process of PWCing.  However, if & when I least suspect there's any issue going on in a tank, the drain hose's first 6 feet are submerged into that 20 gallons of sterilization "bath" I mentioned as constantly keeping available at all times, and then the pump is turned on to fill the hoses (and the pump's internal parts)  with the chlorine bleach solution to let it stand at least overnight if not longer.  This thoroughly sterilizes the water removal system for it's next use.  The drain hoses and pump are hooked up at all times, the end that's put in the aquariums is always submersed in the bleach bath when not in use and the outlet end of this hose is always fixed to the utility tub to drain (into the side opposite the standing bleach bath) any time it's in use.  The 20 gallon sterilization bath is one side of a double utility tub I have in the hatchery for cleaning filters and doing any other fish maintenance chores.  This one side is always filled with bleach water solution where I'll submerse anything in it that needs it, including nets, but you need to be careful of not allowing nets to soak for too long of a period at any one time as even though most are made with synthetics they may be stitched at the seams with cotton which will disintegrate from long exposure.  I know this may be impractical for Python users, but maybe this method can be adapted somehow.
       
      It's always good to have a fish "medicine chest" available at all times, as anyone may spot a disease at any inopportune time -- in the evening when the fish stores are closed.  These medications should be kept in a refrigerator at all times until needed.  I have a separate refrigerator dedicated for hatchery use, where I store dry fish foods, live fish foods, medications, buffers, test reagents, etc., and use the freezer part for my frozen fish foods.  A hobbyist having a somewhat smaller set up could get one of those small dorm refrigerators.  Some medications to have at all times -- besides having salt on hand -- are Furan II (as it has many applications), Kanaplex (as it has uses separate from combining with Furan II -- as it's one of the few highly absorbable antibiotics available, it's extremely useful for internal issues), Acriflavin, Minocycline (if Kanamycin can't be found), Maracyn (for any gram-positive bacteria disease) and Fungus Clear (which use is not limited only to Fungal issues) to name a few of the most useful ones.  Then, depending on what fish one is keeping, and their susceptibility to certain diseases primarily associated with them, Metronidazole, Tetracycline (if the aquarium water does not exceed pH 7.5), PraziPro and Clout are always good to keep on hand.  Jungle Lab's Internal Parasite Guard is handy too.  Medications are like insurance policies -- you don't really want to use them, but they're the best thing to have on hand -- at all times -- when a problem comes up.      
       
      Preventatives ???   As we can never know what any new fish may have been subjected to, quarantining them is the best way of assuring that any disease they're carrying is not transmitted to your other fishes.  For fish that you've been maintaining all along, there's nothing like large frequent PWC's to keep the fish stress-free of organic waste build-up, which is a prime reason for them becoming susceptible to diseases.  Many pathogens coexist with our fish at all times, without issue (case in point -- Ich), but when they get stressed they're open to contracting any disease pathogens that may be present.  
       
      Ray   
       
       
       
      In a message dated 1/25/2015 6:27:43 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       


      Morning all !

      Ray I soaked the small tank in 1/2 cup bleach per gal. of water but only for an hour. I’ll redo it today at the 1 cup to 10 gal and let sit and the same with the big tank to the rim and wipe down everything with bleach.

      I’m sure I contaminated the big tank with the python when changing water.
      I never even thought about it. I was planning on soaking the python in a trash can with bleach. I have a small transfer pump so to circulate bleach through the hose and back to the trash can. I can’t remember if the hose is 50' or 75’, either way theres a bunch of it.

      How do you handle your water changing equipment, soaking, rinsing , storage? 
      The soaking i don’t see as a problem but the rinsing would seem to be a huge task as far as getting rid of all the bleach.

      What would be a good list of “should have on hand at all times” as far as medicines, treatments and preventives ?

      Thanks again for all the help
      Harry









      On Jan 24, 2015, at 7:16 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


      Hi Harry,
       
      Sorry to hear your fish having this problem, and sorry too for your receiving this bad advice from your LFS.  Losing two tanks of fish is not pleasant.  Yes, Columnaris is usually a fast and aggressive disease.  To help in diagnosing this, could you also describe it as a milky white coating/patch -- but not fuzzy like a fungus?  Assuming your fish had Columnaris/Flexibacteria, this is a gram-negative pathogen (caused by any one of 28 different bacteria and 91 strains within these 28 bacteria species), Melafix would not at all be the treatment of choice, as this medication primarily treats gram-positive bacterial diseases.  Along these same lines, if this were the route to take, Pimafix would have been the better choice by far as it primarily treats gram-negative pathogens -- but not because it's the best route to take in combating this disease (as it's not).   
       
      While chlorine bleach is most effective as a topical solution/bath in killing Columnaris bacteria, it needs to be used at a proper strength to be most effective.  These pathogens are especially virulent and resistant to eradication; they can survive freezing in liquid nitrogen for up to three weeks and still be viable.  Still this plan is one way to go if you highly suspect this disease is in both the 10 gallon and the 55 gallon and you have no fish in either tank at this time.  If you have fish in either tank though, it would be much easier to just use a proper treatment for eliminating the disease.
       
      I have no idea as to how much bleach you had in mind to add to your tanks in the effort to sterilize your tanks, but to make sure, I would use about 1 cup of Chlorox per 10 gallons, for at least 24 hours.  I normally use 1 cup of chlorine bleach per 20 gallons as a standing sterilization bath for all my equipment, at all times, using a swimming pool chlorine testing kit to keep the solution at a level where I want it.  I constantly maintain this bath 365 days a year as a disease control for any equipment that's used in multiple tanks, including my water change hoses.    
       
      I'm not sure completely drying the tank will eliminate the pathogen, but of course you don't want any residual Chlorox in the water to adversely affect any fish you add.  I don't very much that drying will eliminate the bacteria if they're present.  Still, the small amount of chlorine in any bleach solution left in the tank will dissipate after 24 hours.  A problem with using a Chlorox bath in sterilizing a tank is that not only do you need to fill the tank to it's extreme top lip in assuring contacting any bacteria that have been in contact with your tank's walls above the normal water level, but the top rim of the tank should be wiped down with a bleach-soaked cloth to prevent any bacteria from being overlooked.  This goes also for the hood that sits on top of the tank, which could now harbor bacteria that got bounced up under there by aeration. I don't see the need for the waste of the Prime though If you're only going to drain the tank afterwards and refill it again.   
       
      But, like I said, if you have fish in any of your tanks now and just plan to move them while treating their tank(s), the pathogens are just going to hitch-hike along for a ride with these fish on their mucus coatings to any other tank you move the fish to.  It's best to treat the fish (not the tank) if you already have fish that have been in contact with this disease.  Use a combination of Nitrofurazone (as either Furan II or as Jungle Lab's Fungus Clear Tank Buddies) and Kanamycin Sulfate (as Seachem's Kanaplex).  Follow the directions on the meds and complete them for the full time stated.  Even repeat if needed.  The Fungus Clear may be a bit better than the Furan II, only as it also contains Potassium Dichromate, but either will be effective as they're both the best treatment of choice as broad-spectrum, gram-negative antibiotics against Columnaris.  Don't hesitate to get back here if I didn't cover everything you need.
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/24/2015 6:19:39 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
      Hey Ray I need some expert advice.
      I just lost two tanks of fish to what I suspect is Columnaris. I first saw what looked like a mold growing on the fish wednesday , wasn’t there tuesday night but wednesday afternoon it was very noticeable. I started a treatment of Melafix because thats what was suggested at LFS and I had no idea what the disease was.

      Within 48 hours two tanks of fish were dead. I’ve never seen anything move so fast
      I’ve drained and moved the 10 gal infected tank outside filled with clorox / water solution , rinsed well and let dry in the sun. I filled it this evening with water and a heavy doe of Prime and will sit over night , then drain and let the sun hit it again until dry.

      The 55 gal tank,I’d rather not have to move unless necessary. I’ve drained and removed all the gravel. My plan is to pull the fluvial apart remove all the media, reinstall and fill the tank with clorox/water and let it circulate for a day , drain rinse well and let dry for a good while ( no hurry now).
      Does that sound like a plan or do I need to go a different route.

      Thanks Harry

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      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56460 From: Harry Leverett Date: 1/25/2015
      Subject: Re: Columnaris
      Hell Ray I can’t spell my name without a couple of typos !
       Got the big tank circulating with filter gutted. Plan to drain tomorrow remove filter , suction and discharge tubing and all the suction cups and soak all that again getting the full length clean and the area under the cups clean.

      Harry
      On Jan 25, 2015, at 10:47 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


      Harry, I'm only too glad to help; you're quite welcome.  As for any residual Chlorox, remember that any small amount not being rinsed out will dissipate (as chlorine gas) within 24 hours -- so as long as you don't add fish the same day as you fill your tank, things should be perfectly safe to add fish by the following day.  Well, I used to write a lot for my now defunct aquarium club, as editor of their monthly bulletin, this was many years ago.  I have thought about writing occasionally for one of the national aquarium magazines, but I just never seem to get around to it even though there's one topic in particular I've had in mind for this for several years now.  I do still write sometimes for the aquarium club I've now been in (for almost 25 years).  I doubt I'll ever write a book < g >, but it's a nice thought.  BTW, I just now looked back over my last reply to you and already found two typos -- without going any further than the first paragraph (LOL)!
       
      Best,
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/25/2015 10:25:55 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Thanks again Ray for the help.

      ! cup to 10 sounds great to me. Just printed this email and hung it on my bulletin board for future reference ;)

      I guess I sanitize the python between each tank for now and figure out something different as I go. I was concerned about getting all the bleach off but sounds pretty simple.

      Have you ever thought about writing a book, I’ll buy a dozen copies ( give them for Christmas presents )

      Thanks again
      Harry

      On Jan 25, 2015, at 8:38 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


      Morning Harry,
       
      A half cup bleach per gallon is overkill, and at that rate you'd need to add 110 cups to the 55 gallon tank.  That comes out to nearly 3 1/2 gallons of bleach.  One cup per 10 gallons is quite strong.  Also what enters this is the time allowed for it to be in contact with all the tank's and the equipment's surfaces, as the longer the duration, the greater there disinfectant propensity.  When soaking the Python, water needs to fill the inside of the hose completely as it's being circulated,  As for rinsing it, you just attach it to your faucet as you would for filling the tank and just let fresh water flush it out down the drain.
       
      As for my water changing equipment, first I need to clarify that I use my private well water and not my tap water.  This now tells you that I can't use it directly from the well as it's far too cold -- SO, I have four tanks (yes, fish-less "aquariums") I use for water storage equaling about 500 gallons to allow the temperature to equalize the room temperature before pumping the water into my fish tanks.  The water is pumped directly into these holding tanks for "aging" (temperature equalization); I heat the hatchery via a house-gas space heater rather than using individual electric heaters for each of my tanks, which would cost a small fortune in monthly utility bills if I used Ebo Jagers or Visi-Therms.
       
      That said, I have two water pumps, with two sets of hoses, to move my water.  One set to pump water from my holding tanks to my aquaria via an overhead system of PVC piping, fast-disconnect fittings over the tanks and dropper hoses from the PVC connection to the individual tanks as needed.  This requires no sterilization as nothing is ever in contact with the aquarium water.
       
      Then, I have another water pump and set of hoses used to pump out the water from any tank I select.  Much of the time, I can pump down tank number 2, 3, 4, 5, etc., after first pumping down tank number 1, and then proceed to refill each preceding tank right behind the next tank that's being drawn down -- both at the same time -- to speed the process of PWCing.  However, if & when I least suspect there's any issue going on in a tank, the drain hose's first 6 feet are submerged into that 20 gallons of sterilization "bath" I mentioned as constantly keeping available at all times, and then the pump is turned on to fill the hoses (and the pump's internal parts)  with the chlorine bleach solution to let it stand at least overnight if not longer.  This thoroughly sterilizes the water removal system for it's next use.  The drain hoses and pump are hooked up at all times, the end that's put in the aquariums is always submersed in the bleach bath when not in use and the outlet end of this hose is always fixed to the utility tub to drain (into the side opposite the standing bleach bath) any time it's in use.  The 20 gallon sterilization bath is one side of a double utility tub I have in the hatchery for cleaning filters and doing any other fish maintenance chores.  This one side is always filled with bleach water solution where I'll submerse anything in it that needs it, including nets, but you need to be careful of not allowing nets to soak for too long of a period at any one time as even though most are made with synthetics they may be stitched at the seams with cotton which will disintegrate from long exposure.  I know this may be impractical for Python users, but maybe this method can be adapted somehow.
       
      It's always good to have a fish "medicine chest" available at all times, as anyone may spot a disease at any inopportune time -- in the evening when the fish stores are closed.  These medications should be kept in a refrigerator at all times until needed.  I have a separate refrigerator dedicated for hatchery use, where I store dry fish foods, live fish foods, medications, buffers, test reagents, etc., and use the freezer part for my frozen fish foods.  A hobbyist having a somewhat smaller set up could get one of those small dorm refrigerators.  Some medications to have at all times -- besides having salt on hand -- are Furan II (as it has many applications), Kanaplex (as it has uses separate from combining with Furan II -- as it's one of the few highly absorbable antibiotics available, it's extremely useful for internal issues), Acriflavin, Minocycline (if Kanamycin can't be found), Maracyn (for any gram-positive bacteria disease) and Fungus Clear (which use is not limited only to Fungal issues) to name a few of the most useful ones.  Then, depending on what fish one is keeping, and their susceptibility to certain diseases primarily associated with them, Metronidazole, Tetracycline (if the aquarium water does not exceed pH 7.5), PraziPro and Clout are always good to keep on hand.  Jungle Lab's Internal Parasite Guard is handy too.  Medications are like insurance policies -- you don't really want to use them, but they're the best thing to have on hand -- at all times -- when a problem comes up.      
       
      Preventatives ???   As we can never know what any new fish may have been subjected to, quarantining them is the best way of assuring that any disease they're carrying is not transmitted to your other fishes.  For fish that you've been maintaining all along, there's nothing like large frequent PWC's to keep the fish stress-free of organic waste build-up, which is a prime reason for them becoming susceptible to diseases.  Many pathogens coexist with our fish at all times, without issue (case in point -- Ich), but when they get stressed they're open to contracting any disease pathogens that may be present.  
       
      Ray   
       
       
       
      In a message dated 1/25/2015 6:27:43 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       


      Morning all !

      Ray I soaked the small tank in 1/2 cup bleach per gal. of water but only for an hour. I’ll redo it today at the 1 cup to 10 gal and let sit and the same with the big tank to the rim and wipe down everything with bleach.

      I’m sure I contaminated the big tank with the python when changing water.
      I never even thought about it. I was planning on soaking the python in a trash can with bleach. I have a small transfer pump so to circulate bleach through the hose and back to the trash can. I can’t remember if the hose is 50' or 75’, either way theres a bunch of it.

      How do you handle your water changing equipment, soaking, rinsing , storage? 
      The soaking i don’t see as a problem but the rinsing would seem to be a huge task as far as getting rid of all the bleach.

      What would be a good list of “should have on hand at all times” as far as medicines, treatments and preventives ?

      Thanks again for all the help
      Harry









      On Jan 24, 2015, at 7:16 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


      Hi Harry,
       
      Sorry to hear your fish having this problem, and sorry too for your receiving this bad advice from your LFS.  Losing two tanks of fish is not pleasant.  Yes, Columnaris is usually a fast and aggressive disease.  To help in diagnosing this, could you also describe it as a milky white coating/patch -- but not fuzzy like a fungus?  Assuming your fish had Columnaris/Flexibacteria, this is a gram-negative pathogen (caused by any one of 28 different bacteria and 91 strains within these 28 bacteria species), Melafix would not at all be the treatment of choice, as this medication primarily treats gram-positive bacterial diseases.  Along these same lines, if this were the route to take, Pimafix would have been the better choice by far as it primarily treats gram-negative pathogens -- but not because it's the best route to take in combating this disease (as it's not).   
       
      While chlorine bleach is most effective as a topical solution/bath in killing Columnaris bacteria, it needs to be used at a proper strength to be most effective.  These pathogens are especially virulent and resistant to eradication; they can survive freezing in liquid nitrogen for up to three weeks and still be viable.  Still this plan is one way to go if you highly suspect this disease is in both the 10 gallon and the 55 gallon and you have no fish in either tank at this time.  If you have fish in either tank though, it would be much easier to just use a proper treatment for eliminating the disease.
       
      I have no idea as to how much bleach you had in mind to add to your tanks in the effort to sterilize your tanks, but to make sure, I would use about 1 cup of Chlorox per 10 gallons, for at least 24 hours.  I normally use 1 cup of chlorine bleach per 20 gallons as a standing sterilization bath for all my equipment, at all times, using a swimming pool chlorine testing kit to keep the solution at a level where I want it.  I constantly maintain this bath 365 days a year as a disease control for any equipment that's used in multiple tanks, including my water change hoses.    
       
      I'm not sure completely drying the tank will eliminate the pathogen, but of course you don't want any residual Chlorox in the water to adversely affect any fish you add.  I don't very much that drying will eliminate the bacteria if they're present.  Still, the small amount of chlorine in any bleach solution left in the tank will dissipate after 24 hours.  A problem with using a Chlorox bath in sterilizing a tank is that not only do you need to fill the tank to it's extreme top lip in assuring contacting any bacteria that have been in contact with your tank's walls above the normal water level, but the top rim of the tank should be wiped down with a bleach-soaked cloth to prevent any bacteria from being overlooked.  This goes also for the hood that sits on top of the tank, which could now harbor bacteria that got bounced up under there by aeration. I don't see the need for the waste of the Prime though If you're only going to drain the tank afterwards and refill it again.   
       
      But, like I said, if you have fish in any of your tanks now and just plan to move them while treating their tank(s), the pathogens are just going to hitch-hike along for a ride with these fish on their mucus coatings to any other tank you move the fish to.  It's best to treat the fish (not the tank) if you already have fish that have been in contact with this disease.  Use a combination of Nitrofurazone (as either Furan II or as Jungle Lab's Fungus Clear Tank Buddies) and Kanamycin Sulfate (as Seachem's Kanaplex).  Follow the directions on the meds and complete them for the full time stated.  Even repeat if needed.  The Fungus Clear may be a bit better than the Furan II, only as it also contains Potassium Dichromate, but either will be effective as they're both the best treatment of choice as broad-spectrum, gram-negative antibiotics against Columnaris.  Don't hesitate to get back here if I didn't cover everything you need.
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/24/2015 6:19:39 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
      Hey Ray I need some expert advice.
      I just lost two tanks of fish to what I suspect is Columnaris. I first saw what looked like a mold growing on the fish wednesday , wasn’t there tuesday night but wednesday afternoon it was very noticeable. I started a treatment of Melafix because thats what was suggested at LFS and I had no idea what the disease was.

      Within 48 hours two tanks of fish were dead. I’ve never seen anything move so fast
      I’ve drained and moved the 10 gal infected tank outside filled with clorox / water solution , rinsed well and let dry in the sun. I filled it this evening with water and a heavy doe of Prime and will sit over night , then drain and let the sun hit it again until dry.

      The 55 gal tank,I’d rather not have to move unless necessary. I’ve drained and removed all the gravel. My plan is to pull the fluvial apart remove all the media, reinstall and fill the tank with clorox/water and let it circulate for a day , drain rinse well and let dry for a good while ( no hurry now).
      Does that sound like a plan or do I need to go a different route.

      Thanks Harry

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      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56461 From: Harry Leverett Date: 1/25/2015
      Subject: Re: Columnaris
      I forgot to ask last email. Whats your opinion of pool filter sand as a substrate ?

      Harry

      On Jan 25, 2015, at 10:47 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


      Harry, I'm only too glad to help; you're quite welcome.  As for any residual Chlorox, remember that any small amount not being rinsed out will dissipate (as chlorine gas) within 24 hours -- so as long as you don't add fish the same day as you fill your tank, things should be perfectly safe to add fish by the following day.  Well, I used to write a lot for my now defunct aquarium club, as editor of their monthly bulletin, this was many years ago.  I have thought about writing occasionally for one of the national aquarium magazines, but I just never seem to get around to it even though there's one topic in particular I've had in mind for this for several years now.  I do still write sometimes for the aquarium club I've now been in (for almost 25 years).  I doubt I'll ever write a book < g >, but it's a nice thought.  BTW, I just now looked back over my last reply to you and already found two typos -- without going any further than the first paragraph (LOL)!
       
      Best,
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/25/2015 10:25:55 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Thanks again Ray for the help.

      ! cup to 10 sounds great to me. Just printed this email and hung it on my bulletin board for future reference ;)

      I guess I sanitize the python between each tank for now and figure out something different as I go. I was concerned about getting all the bleach off but sounds pretty simple.

      Have you ever thought about writing a book, I’ll buy a dozen copies ( give them for Christmas presents )

      Thanks again
      Harry

      On Jan 25, 2015, at 8:38 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


      Morning Harry,
       
      A half cup bleach per gallon is overkill, and at that rate you'd need to add 110 cups to the 55 gallon tank.  That comes out to nearly 3 1/2 gallons of bleach.  One cup per 10 gallons is quite strong.  Also what enters this is the time allowed for it to be in contact with all the tank's and the equipment's surfaces, as the longer the duration, the greater there disinfectant propensity.  When soaking the Python, water needs to fill the inside of the hose completely as it's being circulated,  As for rinsing it, you just attach it to your faucet as you would for filling the tank and just let fresh water flush it out down the drain.
       
      As for my water changing equipment, first I need to clarify that I use my private well water and not my tap water.  This now tells you that I can't use it directly from the well as it's far too cold -- SO, I have four tanks (yes, fish-less "aquariums") I use for water storage equaling about 500 gallons to allow the temperature to equalize the room temperature before pumping the water into my fish tanks.  The water is pumped directly into these holding tanks for "aging" (temperature equalization); I heat the hatchery via a house-gas space heater rather than using individual electric heaters for each of my tanks, which would cost a small fortune in monthly utility bills if I used Ebo Jagers or Visi-Therms.
       
      That said, I have two water pumps, with two sets of hoses, to move my water.  One set to pump water from my holding tanks to my aquaria via an overhead system of PVC piping, fast-disconnect fittings over the tanks and dropper hoses from the PVC connection to the individual tanks as needed.  This requires no sterilization as nothing is ever in contact with the aquarium water.
       
      Then, I have another water pump and set of hoses used to pump out the water from any tank I select.  Much of the time, I can pump down tank number 2, 3, 4, 5, etc., after first pumping down tank number 1, and then proceed to refill each preceding tank right behind the next tank that's being drawn down -- both at the same time -- to speed the process of PWCing.  However, if & when I least suspect there's any issue going on in a tank, the drain hose's first 6 feet are submerged into that 20 gallons of sterilization "bath" I mentioned as constantly keeping available at all times, and then the pump is turned on to fill the hoses (and the pump's internal parts)  with the chlorine bleach solution to let it stand at least overnight if not longer.  This thoroughly sterilizes the water removal system for it's next use.  The drain hoses and pump are hooked up at all times, the end that's put in the aquariums is always submersed in the bleach bath when not in use and the outlet end of this hose is always fixed to the utility tub to drain (into the side opposite the standing bleach bath) any time it's in use.  The 20 gallon sterilization bath is one side of a double utility tub I have in the hatchery for cleaning filters and doing any other fish maintenance chores.  This one side is always filled with bleach water solution where I'll submerse anything in it that needs it, including nets, but you need to be careful of not allowing nets to soak for too long of a period at any one time as even though most are made with synthetics they may be stitched at the seams with cotton which will disintegrate from long exposure.  I know this may be impractical for Python users, but maybe this method can be adapted somehow.
       
      It's always good to have a fish "medicine chest" available at all times, as anyone may spot a disease at any inopportune time -- in the evening when the fish stores are closed.  These medications should be kept in a refrigerator at all times until needed.  I have a separate refrigerator dedicated for hatchery use, where I store dry fish foods, live fish foods, medications, buffers, test reagents, etc., and use the freezer part for my frozen fish foods.  A hobbyist having a somewhat smaller set up could get one of those small dorm refrigerators.  Some medications to have at all times -- besides having salt on hand -- are Furan II (as it has many applications), Kanaplex (as it has uses separate from combining with Furan II -- as it's one of the few highly absorbable antibiotics available, it's extremely useful for internal issues), Acriflavin, Minocycline (if Kanamycin can't be found), Maracyn (for any gram-positive bacteria disease) and Fungus Clear (which use is not limited only to Fungal issues) to name a few of the most useful ones.  Then, depending on what fish one is keeping, and their susceptibility to certain diseases primarily associated with them, Metronidazole, Tetracycline (if the aquarium water does not exceed pH 7.5), PraziPro and Clout are always good to keep on hand.  Jungle Lab's Internal Parasite Guard is handy too.  Medications are like insurance policies -- you don't really want to use them, but they're the best thing to have on hand -- at all times -- when a problem comes up.      
       
      Preventatives ???   As we can never know what any new fish may have been subjected to, quarantining them is the best way of assuring that any disease they're carrying is not transmitted to your other fishes.  For fish that you've been maintaining all along, there's nothing like large frequent PWC's to keep the fish stress-free of organic waste build-up, which is a prime reason for them becoming susceptible to diseases.  Many pathogens coexist with our fish at all times, without issue (case in point -- Ich), but when they get stressed they're open to contracting any disease pathogens that may be present.  
       
      Ray   
       
       
       
      In a message dated 1/25/2015 6:27:43 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       


      Morning all !

      Ray I soaked the small tank in 1/2 cup bleach per gal. of water but only for an hour. I’ll redo it today at the 1 cup to 10 gal and let sit and the same with the big tank to the rim and wipe down everything with bleach.

      I’m sure I contaminated the big tank with the python when changing water.
      I never even thought about it. I was planning on soaking the python in a trash can with bleach. I have a small transfer pump so to circulate bleach through the hose and back to the trash can. I can’t remember if the hose is 50' or 75’, either way theres a bunch of it.

      How do you handle your water changing equipment, soaking, rinsing , storage? 
      The soaking i don’t see as a problem but the rinsing would seem to be a huge task as far as getting rid of all the bleach.

      What would be a good list of “should have on hand at all times” as far as medicines, treatments and preventives ?

      Thanks again for all the help
      Harry









      On Jan 24, 2015, at 7:16 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


      Hi Harry,
       
      Sorry to hear your fish having this problem, and sorry too for your receiving this bad advice from your LFS.  Losing two tanks of fish is not pleasant.  Yes, Columnaris is usually a fast and aggressive disease.  To help in diagnosing this, could you also describe it as a milky white coating/patch -- but not fuzzy like a fungus?  Assuming your fish had Columnaris/Flexibacteria, this is a gram-negative pathogen (caused by any one of 28 different bacteria and 91 strains within these 28 bacteria species), Melafix would not at all be the treatment of choice, as this medication primarily treats gram-positive bacterial diseases.  Along these same lines, if this were the route to take, Pimafix would have been the better choice by far as it primarily treats gram-negative pathogens -- but not because it's the best route to take in combating this disease (as it's not).   
       
      While chlorine bleach is most effective as a topical solution/bath in killing Columnaris bacteria, it needs to be used at a proper strength to be most effective.  These pathogens are especially virulent and resistant to eradication; they can survive freezing in liquid nitrogen for up to three weeks and still be viable.  Still this plan is one way to go if you highly suspect this disease is in both the 10 gallon and the 55 gallon and you have no fish in either tank at this time.  If you have fish in either tank though, it would be much easier to just use a proper treatment for eliminating the disease.
       
      I have no idea as to how much bleach you had in mind to add to your tanks in the effort to sterilize your tanks, but to make sure, I would use about 1 cup of Chlorox per 10 gallons, for at least 24 hours.  I normally use 1 cup of chlorine bleach per 20 gallons as a standing sterilization bath for all my equipment, at all times, using a swimming pool chlorine testing kit to keep the solution at a level where I want it.  I constantly maintain this bath 365 days a year as a disease control for any equipment that's used in multiple tanks, including my water change hoses.    
       
      I'm not sure completely drying the tank will eliminate the pathogen, but of course you don't want any residual Chlorox in the water to adversely affect any fish you add.  I don't very much that drying will eliminate the bacteria if they're present.  Still, the small amount of chlorine in any bleach solution left in the tank will dissipate after 24 hours.  A problem with using a Chlorox bath in sterilizing a tank is that not only do you need to fill the tank to it's extreme top lip in assuring contacting any bacteria that have been in contact with your tank's walls above the normal water level, but the top rim of the tank should be wiped down with a bleach-soaked cloth to prevent any bacteria from being overlooked.  This goes also for the hood that sits on top of the tank, which could now harbor bacteria that got bounced up under there by aeration. I don't see the need for the waste of the Prime though If you're only going to drain the tank afterwards and refill it again.   
       
      But, like I said, if you have fish in any of your tanks now and just plan to move them while treating their tank(s), the pathogens are just going to hitch-hike along for a ride with these fish on their mucus coatings to any other tank you move the fish to.  It's best to treat the fish (not the tank) if you already have fish that have been in contact with this disease.  Use a combination of Nitrofurazone (as either Furan II or as Jungle Lab's Fungus Clear Tank Buddies) and Kanamycin Sulfate (as Seachem's Kanaplex).  Follow the directions on the meds and complete them for the full time stated.  Even repeat if needed.  The Fungus Clear may be a bit better than the Furan II, only as it also contains Potassium Dichromate, but either will be effective as they're both the best treatment of choice as broad-spectrum, gram-negative antibiotics against Columnaris.  Don't hesitate to get back here if I didn't cover everything you need.
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/24/2015 6:19:39 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
      Hey Ray I need some expert advice.
      I just lost two tanks of fish to what I suspect is Columnaris. I first saw what looked like a mold growing on the fish wednesday , wasn’t there tuesday night but wednesday afternoon it was very noticeable. I started a treatment of Melafix because thats what was suggested at LFS and I had no idea what the disease was.

      Within 48 hours two tanks of fish were dead. I’ve never seen anything move so fast
      I’ve drained and moved the 10 gal infected tank outside filled with clorox / water solution , rinsed well and let dry in the sun. I filled it this evening with water and a heavy doe of Prime and will sit over night , then drain and let the sun hit it again until dry.

      The 55 gal tank,I’d rather not have to move unless necessary. I’ve drained and removed all the gravel. My plan is to pull the fluvial apart remove all the media, reinstall and fill the tank with clorox/water and let it circulate for a day , drain rinse well and let dry for a good while ( no hurry now).
      Does that sound like a plan or do I need to go a different route.

      Thanks Harry

      ------------------------------------

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      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56462 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/25/2015
      Subject: Re: Columnaris
      AOL Email
      DO NOT use pool filter sand as a substrate.  It has sharp edges, which serves its purpose well in catching dirt and debris, but it can be injurious to fish.  Cory's can often even have their barbels cut off by it.  If you want to use sand as a substrate -- assuming you're NOT going to grow plants -- get play sand used in kids' sand boxes.  Even then, some brands -- like "Sandtastic" can still have sharp edges -- but most brands are perfectly safe.  Just another excerpt from my "book" which I thought I'd pass along (LOL).  
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/25/2015 12:22:46 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      I forgot to ask last email. Whats your opinion of pool filter sand as a substrate ?


      Harry

      On Jan 25, 2015, at 10:47 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


      Harry, I'm only too glad to help; you're quite welcome.  As for any residual Chlorox, remember that any small amount not being rinsed out will dissipate (as chlorine gas) within 24 hours -- so as long as you don't add fish the same day as you fill your tank, things should be perfectly safe to add fish by the following day.  Well, I used to write a lot for my now defunct aquarium club, as editor of their monthly bulletin, this was many years ago.  I have thought about writing occasionally for one of the national aquarium magazines, but I just never seem to get around to it even though there's one topic in particular I've had in mind for this for several years now.  I do still write sometimes for the aquarium club I've now been in (for almost 25 years).  I doubt I'll ever write a book < g >, but it's a nice thought.  BTW, I just now looked back over my last reply to you and already found two typos -- without going any further than the first paragraph (LOL)!
       
      Best,
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/25/2015 10:25:55 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Thanks again Ray for the help.

      ! cup to 10 sounds great to me. Just printed this email and hung it on my bulletin board for future reference ;)

      I guess I sanitize the python between each tank for now and figure out something different as I go. I was concerned about getting all the bleach off but sounds pretty simple.

      Have you ever thought about writing a book, I’ll buy a dozen copies ( give them for Christmas presents )

      Thanks again
      Harry

      On Jan 25, 2015, at 8:38 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


      Morning Harry,
       
      A half cup bleach per gallon is overkill, and at that rate you'd need to add 110 cups to the 55 gallon tank.  That comes out to nearly 3 1/2 gallons of bleach.  One cup per 10 gallons is quite strong.  Also what enters this is the time allowed for it to be in contact with all the tank's and the equipment's surfaces, as the longer the duration, the greater there disinfectant propensity.  When soaking the Python, water needs to fill the inside of the hose completely as it's being circulated,  As for rinsing it, you just attach it to your faucet as you would for filling the tank and just let fresh water flush it out down the drain.
       
      As for my water changing equipment, first I need to clarify that I use my private well water and not my tap water.  This now tells you that I can't use it directly from the well as it's far too cold -- SO, I have four tanks (yes, fish-less "aquariums") I use for water storage equaling about 500 gallons to allow the temperature to equalize the room temperature before pumping the water into my fish tanks.  The water is pumped directly into these holding tanks for "aging" (temperature equalization); I heat the hatchery via a house-gas space heater rather than using individual electric heaters for each of my tanks, which would cost a small fortune in monthly utility bills if I used Ebo Jagers or Visi-Therms.
       
      That said, I have two water pumps, with two sets of hoses, to move my water.  One set to pump water from my holding tanks to my aquaria via an overhead system of PVC piping, fast-disconnect fittings over the tanks and dropper hoses from the PVC connection to the individual tanks as needed.  This requires no sterilization as nothing is ever in contact with the aquarium water.
       
      Then, I have another water pump and set of hoses used to pump out the water from any tank I select.  Much of the time, I can pump down tank number 2, 3, 4, 5, etc., after first pumping down tank number 1, and then proceed to refill each preceding tank right behind the next tank that's being drawn down -- both at the same time -- to speed the process of PWCing.  However, if & when I least suspect there's any issue going on in a tank, the drain hose's first 6 feet are submerged into that 20 gallons of sterilization "bath" I mentioned as constantly keeping available at all times, and then the pump is turned on to fill the hoses (and the pump's internal parts)  with the chlorine bleach solution to let it stand at least overnight if not longer.  This thoroughly sterilizes the water removal system for it's next use.  The drain hoses and pump are hooked up at all times, the end that's put in the aquariums is always submersed in the bleach bath when not in use and the outlet end of this hose is always fixed to the utility tub to drain (into the side opposite the standing bleach bath) any time it's in use.  The 20 gallon sterilization bath is one side of a double utility tub I have in the hatchery for cleaning filters and doing any other fish maintenance chores.  This one side is always filled with bleach water solution where I'll submerse anything in it that needs it, including nets, but you need to be careful of not allowing nets to soak for too long of a period at any one time as even though most are made with synthetics they may be stitched at the seams with cotton which will disintegrate from long exposure.  I know this may be impractical for Python users, but maybe this method can be adapted somehow.
       
      It's always good to have a fish "medicine chest" available at all times, as anyone may spot a disease at any inopportune time -- in the evening when the fish stores are closed.  These medications should be kept in a refrigerator at all times until needed.  I have a separate refrigerator dedicated for hatchery use, where I store dry fish foods, live fish foods, medications, buffers, test reagents, etc., and use the freezer part for my frozen fish foods.  A hobbyist having a somewhat smaller set up could get one of those small dorm refrigerators.  Some medications to have at all times -- besides having salt on hand -- are Furan II (as it has many applications), Kanaplex (as it has uses separate from combining with Furan II -- as it's one of the few highly absorbable antibiotics available, it's extremely useful for internal issues), Acriflavin, Minocycline (if Kanamycin can't be found), Maracyn (for any gram-positive bacteria disease) and Fungus Clear (which use is not limited only to Fungal issues) to name a few of the most useful ones.  Then, depending on what fish one is keeping, and their susceptibility to certain diseases primarily associated with them, Metronidazole, Tetracycline (if the aquarium water does not exceed pH 7.5), PraziPro and Clout are always good to keep on hand.  Jungle Lab's Internal Parasite Guard is handy too.  Medications are like insurance policies -- you don't really want to use them, but they're the best thing to have on hand -- at all times -- when a problem comes up.      
       
      Preventatives ???   As we can never know what any new fish may have been subjected to, quarantining them is the best way of assuring that any disease they're carrying is not transmitted to your other fishes.  For fish that you've been maintaining all along, there's nothing like large frequent PWC's to keep the fish stress-free of organic waste build-up, which is a prime reason for them becoming susceptible to diseases.  Many pathogens coexist with our fish at all times, without issue (case in point -- Ich), but when they get stressed they're open to contracting any disease pathogens that may be present.  
       
      Ray   
       
       
       
      In a message dated 1/25/2015 6:27:43 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       


      Morning all !

      Ray I soaked the small tank in 1/2 cup bleach per gal. of water but only for an hour. I’ll redo it today at the 1 cup to 10 gal and let sit and the same with the big tank to the rim and wipe down everything with bleach.

      I’m sure I contaminated the big tank with the python when changing water.
      I never even thought about it. I was planning on soaking the python in a trash can with bleach. I have a small transfer pump so to circulate bleach through the hose and back to the trash can. I can’t remember if the hose is 50' or 75’, either way theres a bunch of it.

      How do you handle your water changing equipment, soaking, rinsing , storage? 
      The soaking i don’t see as a problem but the rinsing would seem to be a huge task as far as getting rid of all the bleach.

      What would be a good list of “should have on hand at all times” as far as medicines, treatments and preventives ?

      Thanks again for all the help
      Harry









      On Jan 24, 2015, at 7:16 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


      Hi Harry,
       
      Sorry to hear your fish having this problem, and sorry too for your receiving this bad advice from your LFS.  Losing two tanks of fish is not pleasant.  Yes, Columnaris is usually a fast and aggressive disease.  To help in diagnosing this, could you also describe it as a milky white coating/patch -- but not fuzzy like a fungus?  Assuming your fish had Columnaris/Flexibacteria, this is a gram-negative pathogen (caused by any one of 28 different bacteria and 91 strains within these 28 bacteria species), Melafix would not at all be the treatment of choice, as this medication primarily treats gram-positive bacterial diseases.  Along these same lines, if this were the route to take, Pimafix would have been the better choice by far as it primarily treats gram-negative pathogens -- but not because it's the best route to take in combating this disease (as it's not).   
       
      While chlorine bleach is most effective as a topical solution/bath in killing Columnaris bacteria, it needs to be used at a proper strength to be most effective.  These pathogens are especially virulent and resistant to eradication; they can survive freezing in liquid nitrogen for up to three weeks and still be viable.  Still this plan is one way to go if you highly suspect this disease is in both the 10 gallon and the 55 gallon and you have no fish in either tank at this time.  If you have fish in either tank though, it would be much easier to just use a proper treatment for eliminating the disease.
       
      I have no idea as to how much bleach you had in mind to add to your tanks in the effort to sterilize your tanks, but to make sure, I would use about 1 cup of Chlorox per 10 gallons, for at least 24 hours.  I normally use 1 cup of chlorine bleach per 20 gallons as a standing sterilization bath for all my equipment, at all times, using a swimming pool chlorine testing kit to keep the solution at a level where I want it.  I constantly maintain this bath 365 days a year as a disease control for any equipment that's used in multiple tanks, including my water change hoses.    
       
      I'm not sure completely drying the tank will eliminate the pathogen, but of course you don't want any residual Chlorox in the water to adversely affect any fish you add.  I don't very much that drying will eliminate the bacteria if they're present.  Still, the small amount of chlorine in any bleach solution left in the tank will dissipate after 24 hours.  A problem with using a Chlorox bath in sterilizing a tank is that not only do you need to fill the tank to it's extreme top lip in assuring contacting any bacteria that have been in contact with your tank's walls above the normal water level, but the top rim of the tank should be wiped down with a bleach-soaked cloth to prevent any bacteria from being overlooked.  This goes also for the hood that sits on top of the tank, which could now harbor bacteria that got bounced up under there by aeration. I don't see the need for the waste of the Prime though If you're only going to drain the tank afterwards and refill it again.   
       
      But, like I said, if you have fish in any of your tanks now and just plan to move them while treating their tank(s), the pathogens are just going to hitch-hike along for a ride with these fish on their mucus coatings to any other tank you move the fish to.  It's best to treat the fish (not the tank) if you already have fish that have been in contact with this disease.  Use a combination of Nitrofurazone (as either Furan II or as Jungle Lab's Fungus Clear Tank Buddies) and Kanamycin Sulfate (as Seachem's Kanaplex).  Follow the directions on the meds and complete them for the full time stated.  Even repeat if needed.  The Fungus Clear may be a bit better than the Furan II, only as it also contains Potassium Dichromate, but either will be effective as they're both the best treatment of choice as broad-spectrum, gram-negative antibiotics against Columnaris.  Don't hesitate to get back here if I didn't cover everything you need.
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/24/2015 6:19:39 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
      Hey Ray I need some expert advice.
      I just lost two tanks of fish to what I suspect is Columnaris. I first saw what looked like a mold growing on the fish wednesday , wasn’t there tuesday night but wednesday afternoon it was very noticeable. I started a treatment of Melafix because thats what was suggested at LFS and I had no idea what the disease was.

      Within 48 hours two tanks of fish were dead. I’ve never seen anything move so fast
      I’ve drained and moved the 10 gal infected tank outside filled with clorox / water solution , rinsed well and let dry in the sun. I filled it this evening with water and a heavy doe of Prime and will sit over night , then drain and let the sun hit it again until dry.

      The 55 gal tank,I’d rather not have to move unless necessary. I’ve drained and removed all the gravel. My plan is to pull the fluvial apart remove all the media, reinstall and fill the tank with clorox/water and let it circulate for a day , drain rinse well and let dry for a good while ( no hurry now).
      Does that sound like a plan or do I need to go a different route.

      Thanks Harry

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      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56463 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 1/25/2015
      Subject: Cycled
      Hi Ray!! I just wanted to let you know that my 55 Gal community tank is now cycled...FINALLY!!!

      Sadly I did lose 1 angel while it was in the temp tank (which is also now cycled btw).
      Indications that the 55 tank was cycled were first evident around the 18th of this month but I had been wanting to change from gravel to sand substrate so I didn't add fish until after I changed out the gravel for sand and ran the tank empty for 48 hours just in case the changing of substrate changed the cycled status.

      I did end up ordering Dr Tims ammonia and cycled with 4 tsps of ammonia being
      Successfully converted.

      I now have my orig Angel, 2 small/med yellow Angels, 2 sm/med black veiled Angels, 3 balloon mollies, 5 sm neon tetra, 3 albino Cory catfish and an adult male betta all living happily together. I know you had told me I could have more fish than this, I'm comfortable with this number and they all get along so I don't want to press my luck. I had wanted only Angels but my daughter loves the balloon mollies so I caved. They generate A LOT of waste though so they might move to another tank eventually.

      I've been testing everyday to see if the addition of the fish would cause any spikes but the numbers have been stable.
      High ph 7.6, ammonia 0, nitrites 0, nitrates 5, GH 8, KH 6. I continue to dose with prime every other day but wonder if it should be every day. When I completely drained and refilled after substrate change I added 2 TBS dissolved kosher salt and remember you instructed to only add additional at PWC.

      The other tank has become an additional dwarf African frog tank for the time being.
      I'm looking for homes for these 2 males and then that tank will be a quarantine tank for live plants. I've ordered some plants online that are supposed to be snail, disease and pest free but I still want to quarantine them to be sure I don't get any unwelcome visitors in my big tank.

      Thank you for your help in getting the tank cycled. I really do appreciate all the time you spent with me. I do have 3 additional bottles of Dr.Tims Ammonia so if you know someone who needs some they can drop me a note and I'll drop some in the mail.

      Thanks again!
      Peg
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56464 From: Harry Leverett Date: 1/25/2015
      Subject: Re: Columnaris
      10-4. Thanks again Ray
      Waiting on the first edition of the book ; )
      Harry

      Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID


      "sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      DO NOT use pool filter sand as a substrate.  It has sharp edges, which serves its purpose well in catching dirt and debris, but it can be injurious to fish.  Cory's can often even have their barbels cut off by it.  If you want to use sand as a substrate -- assuming you're NOT going to grow plants -- get play sand used in kids' sand boxes.  Even then, some brands -- like "Sandtastic" can still have sharp edges -- but most brands are perfectly safe.  Just another excerpt from my "book" which I thought I'd pass along (LOL).  
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/25/2015 12:22:46 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      I forgot to ask last email. Whats your opinion of pool filter sand as a substrate ?


      Harry

      On Jan 25, 2015, at 10:47 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


      Harry, I'm only too glad to help; you're quite welcome.  As for any residual Chlorox, remember that any small amount not being rinsed out will dissipate (as chlorine gas) within 24 hours -- so as long as you don't add fish the same day as you fill your tank, things should be perfectly safe to add fish by the following day.  Well, I used to write a lot for my now defunct aquarium club, as editor of their monthly bulletin, this was many years ago.  I have thought about writing occasionally for one of the national aquarium magazines, but I just never seem to get around to it even though there's one topic in particular I've had in mind for this for several years now.  I do still write sometimes for the aquarium club I've now been in (for almost 25 years).  I doubt I'll ever write a book < g >, but it's a nice thought.  BTW, I just now looked back over my last reply to you and already found two typos -- without going any further than the first paragraph (LOL)!
       
      Best,
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/25/2015 10:25:55 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Thanks again Ray for the help.

      ! cup to 10 sounds great to me. Just printed this email and hung it on my bulletin board for future reference ;)

      I guess I sanitize the python between each tank for now and figure out something different as I go. I was concerned about getting all the bleach off but sounds pretty simple.

      Have you ever thought about writing a book, I’ll buy a dozen copies ( give them for Christmas presents )

      Thanks again
      Harry

      On Jan 25, 2015, at 8:38 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


      Morning Harry,
       
      A half cup bleach per gallon is overkill, and at that rate you'd need to add 110 cups to the 55 gallon tank.  That comes out to nearly 3 1/2 gallons of bleach.  One cup per 10 gallons is quite strong.  Also what enters this is the time allowed for it to be in contact with all the tank's and the equipment's surfaces, as the longer the duration, the greater there disinfectant propensity.  When soaking the Python, water needs to fill the inside of the hose completely as it's being circulated,  As for rinsing it, you just attach it to your faucet as you would for filling the tank and just let fresh water flush it out down the drain.
       
      As for my water changing equipment, first I need to clarify that I use my private well water and not my tap water.  This now tells you that I can't use it directly from the well as it's far too cold -- SO, I have four tanks (yes, fish-less "aquariums") I use for water storage equaling about 500 gallons to allow the temperature to equalize the room temperature before pumping the water into my fish tanks.  The water is pumped directly into these holding tanks for "aging" (temperature equalization); I heat the hatchery via a house-gas space heater rather than using individual electric heaters for each of my tanks, which would cost a small fortune in monthly utility bills if I used Ebo Jagers or Visi-Therms.
       
      That said, I have two water pumps, with two sets of hoses, to move my water.  One set to pump water from my holding tanks to my aquaria via an overhead system of PVC piping, fast-disconnect fittings over the tanks and dropper hoses from the PVC connection to the individual tanks as needed.  This requires no sterilization as nothing is ever in contact with the aquarium water.
       
      Then, I have another water pump and set of hoses used to pump out the water from any tank I select.  Much of the time, I can pump down tank number 2, 3, 4, 5, etc., after first pumping down tank number 1, and then proceed to refill each preceding tank right behind the next tank that's being drawn down -- both at the same time -- to speed the process of PWCing.  However, if & when I least suspect there's any issue going on in a tank, the drain hose's first 6 feet are submerged into that 20 gallons of sterilization "bath" I mentioned as constantly keeping available at all times, and then the pump is turned on to fill the hoses (and the pump's internal parts)  with the chlorine bleach solution to let it stand at least overnight if not longer.  This thoroughly sterilizes the water removal system for it's next use.  The drain hoses and pump are hooked up at all times, the end that's put in the aquariums is always submersed in the bleach bath when not in use and the outlet end of this hose is always fixed to the utility tub to drain (into the side opposite the standing bleach bath) any time it's in use.  The 20 gallon sterilization bath is one side of a double utility tub I have in the hatchery for cleaning filters and doing any other fish maintenance chores.  This one side is always filled with bleach water solution where I'll submerse anything in it that needs it, including nets, but you need to be careful of not allowing nets to soak for too long of a period at any one time as even though most are made with synthetics they may be stitched at the seams with cotton which will disintegrate from long exposure.  I know this may be impractical for Python users, but maybe this method can be adapted somehow.
       
      It's always good to have a fish "medicine chest" available at all times, as anyone may spot a disease at any inopportune time -- in the evening when the fish stores are closed.  These medications should be kept in a refrigerator at all times until needed.  I have a separate refrigerator dedicated for hatchery use, where I store dry fish foods, live fish foods, medications, buffers, test reagents, etc., and use the freezer part for my frozen fish foods.  A hobbyist having a somewhat smaller set up could get one of those small dorm refrigerators.  Some medications to have at all times -- besides having salt on hand -- are Furan II (as it has many applications), Kanaplex (as it has uses separate from combining with Furan II -- as it's one of the few highly absorbable antibiotics available, it's extremely useful for internal issues), Acriflavin, Minocycline (if Kanamycin can't be found), Maracyn (for any gram-positive bacteria disease) and Fungus Clear (which use is not limited only to Fungal issues) to name a few of the most useful ones.  Then, depending on what fish one is keeping, and their susceptibility to certain diseases primarily associated with them, Metronidazole, Tetracycline (if the aquarium water does not exceed pH 7.5), PraziPro and Clout are always good to keep on hand.  Jungle Lab's Internal Parasite Guard is handy too.  Medications are like insurance policies -- you don't really want to use them, but they're the best thing to have on hand -- at all times -- when a problem comes up.      
       
      Preventatives ???   As we can never know what any new fish may have been subjected to, quarantining them is the best way of assuring that any disease they're carrying is not transmitted to your other fishes.  For fish that you've been maintaining all along, there's nothing like large frequent PWC's to keep the fish stress-free of organic waste build-up, which is a prime reason for them becoming susceptible to diseases.  Many pathogens coexist with our fish at all times, without issue (case in point -- Ich), but when they get stressed they're open to contracting any disease pathogens that may be present.  
       
      Ray   
       
       
       
      In a message dated 1/25/2015 6:27:43 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       


      Morning all !

      Ray I soaked the small tank in 1/2 cup bleach per gal. of water but only for an hour. I’ll redo it today at the 1 cup to 10 gal and let sit and the same with the big tank to the rim and wipe down everything with bleach.

      I’m sure I contaminated the big tank with the python when changing water.
      I never even thought about it. I was planning on soaking the python in a trash can with bleach. I have a small transfer pump so to circulate bleach through the hose and back to the trash can. I can’t remember if the hose is 50' or 75’, either way theres a bunch of it.

      How do you handle your water changing equipment, soaking, rinsing , storage? 
      The soaking i don’t see as a problem but the rinsing would seem to be a huge task as far as getting rid of all the bleach.

      What would be a good list of “should have on hand at all times” as far as medicines, treatments and preventives ?

      Thanks again for all the help
      Harry









      On Jan 24, 2015, at 7:16 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


      Hi Harry,
       
      Sorry to hear your fish having this problem, and sorry too for your receiving this bad advice from your LFS.  Losing two tanks of fish is not pleasant.  Yes, Columnaris is usually a fast and aggressive disease.  To help in diagnosing this, could you also describe it as a milky white coating/patch -- but not fuzzy like a fungus?  Assuming your fish had Columnaris/Flexibacteria, this is a gram-negative pathogen (caused by any one of 28 different bacteria and 91 strains within these 28 bacteria species), Melafix would not at all be the treatment of choice, as this medication primarily treats gram-positive bacterial diseases.  Along these same lines, if this were the route to take, Pimafix would have been the better choice by far as it primarily treats gram-negative pathogens -- but not because it's the best route to take in combating this disease (as it's not).   
       
      While chlorine bleach is most effective as a topical solution/bath in killing Columnaris bacteria, it needs to be used at a proper strength to be most effective.  These pathogens are especially virulent and resistant to eradication; they can survive freezing in liquid nitrogen for up to three weeks and still be viable.  Still this plan is one way to go if you highly suspect this disease is in both the 10 gallon and the 55 gallon and you have no fish in either tank at this time.  If you have fish in either tank though, it would be much easier to just use a proper treatment for eliminating the disease.
       
      I have no idea as to how much bleach you had in mind to add to your tanks in the effort to sterilize your tanks, but to make sure, I would use about 1 cup of Chlorox per 10 gallons, for at least 24 hours.  I normally use 1 cup of chlorine bleach per 20 gallons as a standing sterilization bath for all my equipment, at all times, using a swimming pool chlorine testing kit to keep the solution at a level where I want it.  I constantly maintain this bath 365 days a year as a disease control for any equipment that's used in multiple tanks, including my water change hoses.    
       
      I'm not sure completely drying the tank will eliminate the pathogen, but of course you don't want any residual Chlorox in the water to adversely affect any fish you add.  I don't very much that drying will eliminate the bacteria if they're present.  Still, the small amount of chlorine in any bleach solution left in the tank will dissipate after 24 hours.  A problem with using a Chlorox bath in sterilizing a tank is that not only do you need to fill the tank to it's extreme top lip in assuring contacting any bacteria that have been in contact with your tank's walls above the normal water level, but the top rim of the tank should be wiped down with a bleach-soaked cloth to prevent any bacteria from being overlooked.  This goes also for the hood that sits on top of the tank, which could now harbor bacteria that got bounced up under there by aeration. I don't see the need for the waste of the Prime though If you're only going to drain the tank afterwards and refill it again.   
       
      But, like I said, if you have fish in any of your tanks now and just plan to move them while treating their tank(s), the pathogens are just going to hitch-hike along for a ride with these fish on their mucus coatings to any other tank you move the fish to.  It's best to treat the fish (not the tank) if you already have fish that have been in contact with this disease.  Use a combination of Nitrofurazone (as either Furan II or as Jungle Lab's Fungus Clear Tank Buddies) and Kanamycin Sulfate (as Seachem's Kanaplex).  Follow the directions on the meds and complete them for the full time stated.  Even repeat if needed.  The Fungus Clear may be a bit better than the Furan II, only as it also contains Potassium Dichromate, but either will be effective as they're both the best treatment of choice as broad-spectrum, gram-negative antibiotics against Columnaris.  Don't hesitate to get back here if I didn't cover everything you need.
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/24/2015 6:19:39 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
      Hey Ray I need some expert advice.
      I just lost two tanks of fish to what I suspect is Columnaris. I first saw what looked like a mold growing on the fish wednesday , wasn’t there tuesday night but wednesday afternoon it was very noticeable. I started a treatment of Melafix because thats what was suggested at LFS and I had no idea what the disease was.

      Within 48 hours two tanks of fish were dead. I’ve never seen anything move so fast
      I’ve drained and moved the 10 gal infected tank outside filled with clorox / water solution , rinsed well and let dry in the sun. I filled it this evening with water and a heavy doe of Prime and will sit over night , then drain and let the sun hit it again until dry.

      The 55 gal tank,I’d rather not have to move unless necessary. I’ve drained and removed all the gravel. My plan is to pull the fluvial apart remove all the media, reinstall and fill the tank with clorox/water and let it circulate for a day , drain rinse well and let dry for a good while ( no hurry now).
      Does that sound like a plan or do I need to go a different route.

      Thanks Harry

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      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56465 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 1/25/2015
      Subject: Re: Cycled
      Hi Peg,

        Glad to hear your tank has finally cycled but am sorry to hear you lost an Angel, it's always tough loosing fish. Just a quick tip for when you next get any plants-before you put them in the quarantine tank give them a dip in a small tub with same-temperature water & a splash of white vinegar for a couple of minutes. Then rinse them in clean water & put them in the tank. This should get rid of most hitch-hikers & the quarantine will do the rest.

        John<o)))<

      On 25 January 2015 at 19:09, Peg Yruegas peg@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      Hi Ray!! I just wanted to let you know that my 55 Gal community tank is now cycled...FINALLY!!!

      Sadly I did lose 1 angel while it was in the temp tank (which is also now cycled btw).
      Indications that the 55 tank was cycled were first evident around the 18th of this month but I had been wanting to change from gravel to sand substrate so I didn't add fish until after I changed out the gravel for sand and ran the tank empty for 48 hours just in case the changing of substrate changed the cycled status.

      I did end up ordering Dr Tims ammonia and cycled with 4 tsps of ammonia being
      Successfully converted.

      I now have my orig Angel, 2 small/med yellow Angels, 2 sm/med black veiled Angels, 3 balloon mollies, 5 sm neon tetra, 3 albino Cory catfish and an adult male betta all living happily together. I know you had told me I could have more fish than this, I'm comfortable with this number and they all get along so I don't want to press my luck. I had wanted only Angels but my daughter loves the balloon mollies so I caved. They generate A LOT of waste though so they might move to another tank eventually.

      I've been testing everyday to see if the addition of the fish would cause any spikes but the numbers have been stable.
      High ph 7.6, ammonia 0, nitrites 0, nitrates 5, GH 8, KH 6. I continue to dose with prime every other day but wonder if it should be every day. When I completely drained and refilled after substrate change I added 2 TBS dissolved kosher salt and remember you instructed to only add additional at PWC.

      The other tank has become an additional dwarf African frog tank for the time being.
      I'm looking for homes for these 2 males and then that tank will be a quarantine tank for live plants. I've ordered some plants online that are supposed to be snail, disease and pest free but I still want to quarantine them to be sure I don't get any unwelcome visitors in my big tank.

      Thank you for your help in getting the tank cycled. I really do appreciate all the time you spent with me. I do have 3 additional bottles of Dr.Tims Ammonia so if you know someone who needs some they can drop me a note and I'll drop some in the mail.

      Thanks again!
      Peg


      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56466 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 1/25/2015
      Subject: Re: Cycled
      Hi John!
      Thank you for the tip to rid plants of interlopers. Pi wondered if there were anything I could do to treat them that might alleviate the snails. When mine arrive, I'll be sure to try out your idea. When you say a "splash" is there actually a ratio of water & vinegar or is it just enough to dilute the vinegar so it's not so harsh on plants?

      Peg
      Soon Opening: Hoopin' It Up Designs
                                Custom Embroidery & Embellishments

      On Jan 25, 2015, at 6:14 PM, SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Hi Peg,

        Glad to hear your tank has finally cycled but am sorry to hear you lost an Angel, it's always tough loosing fish. Just a quick tip for when you next get any plants-before you put them in the quarantine tank give them a dip in a small tub with same-temperature water & a splash of white vinegar for a couple of minutes. Then rinse them in clean water & put them in the tank. This should get rid of most hitch-hikers & the quarantine will do the rest.

        John<o)))<

      On 25 January 2015 at 19:09, Peg Yruegas peg@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      Hi Ray!! I just wanted to let you know that my 55 Gal community tank is now cycled...FINALLY!!!

      Sadly I did lose 1 angel while it was in the temp tank (which is also now cycled btw).
      Indications that the 55 tank was cycled were first evident around the 18th of this month but I had been wanting to change from gravel to sand substrate so I didn't add fish until after I changed out the gravel for sand and ran the tank empty for 48 hours just in case the changing of substrate changed the cycled status.

      I did end up ordering Dr Tims ammonia and cycled with 4 tsps of ammonia being
      Successfully converted.

      I now have my orig Angel, 2 small/med yellow Angels, 2 sm/med black veiled Angels, 3 balloon mollies, 5 sm neon tetra, 3 albino Cory catfish and an adult male betta all living happily together. I know you had told me I could have more fish than this, I'm comfortable with this number and they all get along so I don't want to press my luck. I had wanted only Angels but my daughter loves the balloon mollies so I caved. They generate A LOT of waste though so they might move to another tank eventually.

      I've been testing everyday to see if the addition of the fish would cause any spikes but the numbers have been stable.
      High ph 7.6, ammonia 0, nitrites 0, nitrates 5, GH 8, KH 6. I continue to dose with prime every other day but wonder if it should be every day. When I completely drained and refilled after substrate change I added 2 TBS dissolved kosher salt and remember you instructed to only add additional at PWC.

      The other tank has become an additional dwarf African frog tank for the time being.
      I'm looking for homes for these 2 males and then that tank will be a quarantine tank for live plants. I've ordered some plants online that are supposed to be snail, disease and pest free but I still want to quarantine them to be sure I don't get any unwelcome visitors in my big tank.

      Thank you for your help in getting the tank cycled. I really do appreciate all the time you spent with me. I do have 3 additional bottles of Dr.Tims Ammonia so if you know someone who needs some they can drop me a note and I'll drop some in the mail.

      Thanks again!
      Peg


      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56467 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 1/26/2015
      Subject: Re: Cycled
      Hi Peg,

        Sorry-a splash isn't very exact is it!! Difficult to quantify exactly but I reckon the approximate ration I use is an egg cup full of white vinegar to a cup of water if that's more helpful? It is quite strong but that's what you need to get rid if any lodgers & the bath isn't long enough, maybe a couple of minutes to do any harm to the plants.

      I would add that I only have more hardy plants such as Vallis, Anacharis & Hornwort so I don't know if this method would be destructive to more delicate plants.

        John<o)))<

      On 26 January 2015 at 01:58, Peg Yruegas peg@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      Hi John!
      Thank you for the tip to rid plants of interlopers. Pi wondered if there were anything I could do to treat them that might alleviate the snails. When mine arrive, I'll be sure to try out your idea. When you say a "splash" is there actually a ratio of water & vinegar or is it just enough to dilute the vinegar so it's not so harsh on plants?

      Peg
      Soon Opening: Hoopin' It Up Designs
                                Custom Embroidery & Embellishments

      On Jan 25, 2015, at 6:14 PM, SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Hi Peg,

        Glad to hear your tank has finally cycled but am sorry to hear you lost an Angel, it's always tough loosing fish. Just a quick tip for when you next get any plants-before you put them in the quarantine tank give them a dip in a small tub with same-temperature water & a splash of white vinegar for a couple of minutes. Then rinse them in clean water & put them in the tank. This should get rid of most hitch-hikers & the quarantine will do the rest.

        John<o)))<

      On 25 January 2015 at 19:09, Peg Yruegas peg@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      Hi Ray!! I just wanted to let you know that my 55 Gal community tank is now cycled...FINALLY!!!

      Sadly I did lose 1 angel while it was in the temp tank (which is also now cycled btw).
      Indications that the 55 tank was cycled were first evident around the 18th of this month but I had been wanting to change from gravel to sand substrate so I didn't add fish until after I changed out the gravel for sand and ran the tank empty for 48 hours just in case the changing of substrate changed the cycled status.

      I did end up ordering Dr Tims ammonia and cycled with 4 tsps of ammonia being
      Successfully converted.

      I now have my orig Angel, 2 small/med yellow Angels, 2 sm/med black veiled Angels, 3 balloon mollies, 5 sm neon tetra, 3 albino Cory catfish and an adult male betta all living happily together. I know you had told me I could have more fish than this, I'm comfortable with this number and they all get along so I don't want to press my luck. I had wanted only Angels but my daughter loves the balloon mollies so I caved. They generate A LOT of waste though so they might move to another tank eventually.

      I've been testing everyday to see if the addition of the fish would cause any spikes but the numbers have been stable.
      High ph 7.6, ammonia 0, nitrites 0, nitrates 5, GH 8, KH 6. I continue to dose with prime every other day but wonder if it should be every day. When I completely drained and refilled after substrate change I added 2 TBS dissolved kosher salt and remember you instructed to only add additional at PWC.

      The other tank has become an additional dwarf African frog tank for the time being.
      I'm looking for homes for these 2 males and then that tank will be a quarantine tank for live plants. I've ordered some plants online that are supposed to be snail, disease and pest free but I still want to quarantine them to be sure I don't get any unwelcome visitors in my big tank.

      Thank you for your help in getting the tank cycled. I really do appreciate all the time you spent with me. I do have 3 additional bottles of Dr.Tims Ammonia so if you know someone who needs some they can drop me a note and I'll drop some in the mail.

      Thanks again!
      Peg



      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56468 From: Noura T. Date: 1/27/2015
      Subject: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

      Hi everyone,

      First of all. We’re all okay despite the four missiles that hit the city during the past 48 hours.

      Hopefully there won’t be more, at least for a while.

       

      I need urgent help.

      My mom has just brought me her 2 years old Rosy Barb male. He’s been unwell for 3 days. I’m supposed to euthanize him with clove oil. But I thought of trying to save him if possible.

      Symptoms as she described them: Difficulty breathing, rapid vertical circular swimming and upside down swimming then he crashes on the bottom for a while, he hasn’t ate in 3 days.

      The symptoms started 2 days after the weekly partial water change.

      I’m looking at him now, he’s showing these symptoms in the small bag, and I noticed red bloody strikes on some fins, and two fins are torn a little bit. There’s also a small bloody patch under the skin of his head, between the eyes.

       

      I thought it could be ammonia poisoning. But my mom did a water change yesterday and he didn’t get better.

      She performs regular water changes, but has bought him a small Goldfish companion about  a month ago. The tank is about 9 gallons (too small, I know. I told her that).

       

      Can I do anything to save him?

      If the treatment involves antibiotics, there aren’t any specialized medications for fish because of the war. So please mentioned if any humans antibiotics will work.

      Do you think he’s hopeless and that I should euthanize him at this stage?

       

      Thank you,

      Noura

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56469 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 1/27/2015
      Subject: Re: Columnaris
      Hi Ray & Harry,

        Harry-so sorry to hear of your losses & also the terrible advice from your LFS which unfortunately is all too common.

      Ray, some interesting reading of your replies to Harry. I was particularly impressed by your water distribution system not actually touching the water surface in each tank & therefore not needing sterilization.

        John<o)))<

      On 25 January 2015 at 22:58, Harry Leverett harryleverett60@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      10-4. Thanks again Ray
      Waiting on the first edition of the book ; )
      Harry

      Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID


      "sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      DO NOT use pool filter sand as a substrate.  It has sharp edges, which serves its purpose well in catching dirt and debris, but it can be injurious to fish.  Cory's can often even have their barbels cut off by it.  If you want to use sand as a substrate -- assuming you're NOT going to grow plants -- get play sand used in kids' sand boxes.  Even then, some brands -- like "Sandtastic" can still have sharp edges -- but most brands are perfectly safe.  Just another excerpt from my "book" which I thought I'd pass along (LOL).  
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/25/2015 12:22:46 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      I forgot to ask last email. Whats your opinion of pool filter sand as a substrate ?


      Harry

      On Jan 25, 2015, at 10:47 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


      Harry, I'm only too glad to help; you're quite welcome.  As for any residual Chlorox, remember that any small amount not being rinsed out will dissipate (as chlorine gas) within 24 hours -- so as long as you don't add fish the same day as you fill your tank, things should be perfectly safe to add fish by the following day.  Well, I used to write a lot for my now defunct aquarium club, as editor of their monthly bulletin, this was many years ago.  I have thought about writing occasionally for one of the national aquarium magazines, but I just never seem to get around to it even though there's one topic in particular I've had in mind for this for several years now.  I do still write sometimes for the aquarium club I've now been in (for almost 25 years).  I doubt I'll ever write a book < g >, but it's a nice thought.  BTW, I just now looked back over my last reply to you and already found two typos -- without going any further than the first paragraph (LOL)!
       
      Best,
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/25/2015 10:25:55 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Thanks again Ray for the help.

      ! cup to 10 sounds great to me. Just printed this email and hung it on my bulletin board for future reference ;)

      I guess I sanitize the python between each tank for now and figure out something different as I go. I was concerned about getting all the bleach off but sounds pretty simple.

      Have you ever thought about writing a book, I’ll buy a dozen copies ( give them for Christmas presents )

      Thanks again
      Harry

      On Jan 25, 2015, at 8:38 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


      Morning Harry,
       
      A half cup bleach per gallon is overkill, and at that rate you'd need to add 110 cups to the 55 gallon tank.  That comes out to nearly 3 1/2 gallons of bleach.  One cup per 10 gallons is quite strong.  Also what enters this is the time allowed for it to be in contact with all the tank's and the equipment's surfaces, as the longer the duration, the greater there disinfectant propensity.  When soaking the Python, water needs to fill the inside of the hose completely as it's being circulated,  As for rinsing it, you just attach it to your faucet as you would for filling the tank and just let fresh water flush it out down the drain.
       
      As for my water changing equipment, first I need to clarify that I use my private well water and not my tap water.  This now tells you that I can't use it directly from the well as it's far too cold -- SO, I have four tanks (yes, fish-less "aquariums") I use for water storage equaling about 500 gallons to allow the temperature to equalize the room temperature before pumping the water into my fish tanks.  The water is pumped directly into these holding tanks for "aging" (temperature equalization); I heat the hatchery via a house-gas space heater rather than using individual electric heaters for each of my tanks, which would cost a small fortune in monthly utility bills if I used Ebo Jagers or Visi-Therms.
       
      That said, I have two water pumps, with two sets of hoses, to move my water.  One set to pump water from my holding tanks to my aquaria via an overhead system of PVC piping, fast-disconnect fittings over the tanks and dropper hoses from the PVC connection to the individual tanks as needed.  This requires no sterilization as nothing is ever in contact with the aquarium water.
       
      Then, I have another water pump and set of hoses used to pump out the water from any tank I select.  Much of the time, I can pump down tank number 2, 3, 4, 5, etc., after first pumping down tank number 1, and then proceed to refill each preceding tank right behind the next tank that's being drawn down -- both at the same time -- to speed the process of PWCing.  However, if & when I least suspect there's any issue going on in a tank, the drain hose's first 6 feet are submerged into that 20 gallons of sterilization "bath" I mentioned as constantly keeping available at all times, and then the pump is turned on to fill the hoses (and the pump's internal parts)  with the chlorine bleach solution to let it stand at least overnight if not longer.  This thoroughly sterilizes the water removal system for it's next use.  The drain hoses and pump are hooked up at all times, the end that's put in the aquariums is always submersed in the bleach bath when not in use and the outlet end of this hose is always fixed to the utility tub to drain (into the side opposite the standing bleach bath) any time it's in use.  The 20 gallon sterilization bath is one side of a double utility tub I have in the hatchery for cleaning filters and doing any other fish maintenance chores.  This one side is always filled with bleach water solution where I'll submerse anything in it that needs it, including nets, but you need to be careful of not allowing nets to soak for too long of a period at any one time as even though most are made with synthetics they may be stitched at the seams with cotton which will disintegrate from long exposure.  I know this may be impractical for Python users, but maybe this method can be adapted somehow.
       
      It's always good to have a fish "medicine chest" available at all times, as anyone may spot a disease at any inopportune time -- in the evening when the fish stores are closed.  These medications should be kept in a refrigerator at all times until needed.  I have a separate refrigerator dedicated for hatchery use, where I store dry fish foods, live fish foods, medications, buffers, test reagents, etc., and use the freezer part for my frozen fish foods.  A hobbyist having a somewhat smaller set up could get one of those small dorm refrigerators.  Some medications to have at all times -- besides having salt on hand -- are Furan II (as it has many applications), Kanaplex (as it has uses separate from combining with Furan II -- as it's one of the few highly absorbable antibiotics available, it's extremely useful for internal issues), Acriflavin, Minocycline (if Kanamycin can't be found), Maracyn (for any gram-positive bacteria disease) and Fungus Clear (which use is not limited only to Fungal issues) to name a few of the most useful ones.  Then, depending on what fish one is keeping, and their susceptibility to certain diseases primarily associated with them, Metronidazole, Tetracycline (if the aquarium water does not exceed pH 7.5), PraziPro and Clout are always good to keep on hand.  Jungle Lab's Internal Parasite Guard is handy too.  Medications are like insurance policies -- you don't really want to use them, but they're the best thing to have on hand -- at all times -- when a problem comes up.      
       
      Preventatives ???   As we can never know what any new fish may have been subjected to, quarantining them is the best way of assuring that any disease they're carrying is not transmitted to your other fishes.  For fish that you've been maintaining all along, there's nothing like large frequent PWC's to keep the fish stress-free of organic waste build-up, which is a prime reason for them becoming susceptible to diseases.  Many pathogens coexist with our fish at all times, without issue (case in point -- Ich), but when they get stressed they're open to contracting any disease pathogens that may be present.  
       
      Ray   
       
       
       
      In a message dated 1/25/2015 6:27:43 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       


      Morning all !

      Ray I soaked the small tank in 1/2 cup bleach per gal. of water but only for an hour. I’ll redo it today at the 1 cup to 10 gal and let sit and the same with the big tank to the rim and wipe down everything with bleach.

      I’m sure I contaminated the big tank with the python when changing water.
      I never even thought about it. I was planning on soaking the python in a trash can with bleach. I have a small transfer pump so to circulate bleach through the hose and back to the trash can. I can’t remember if the hose is 50' or 75’, either way theres a bunch of it.

      How do you handle your water changing equipment, soaking, rinsing , storage? 
      The soaking i don’t see as a problem but the rinsing would seem to be a huge task as far as getting rid of all the bleach.

      What would be a good list of “should have on hand at all times” as far as medicines, treatments and preventives ?

      Thanks again for all the help
      Harry









      On Jan 24, 2015, at 7:16 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


      Hi Harry,
       
      Sorry to hear your fish having this problem, and sorry too for your receiving this bad advice from your LFS.  Losing two tanks of fish is not pleasant.  Yes, Columnaris is usually a fast and aggressive disease.  To help in diagnosing this, could you also describe it as a milky white coating/patch -- but not fuzzy like a fungus?  Assuming your fish had Columnaris/Flexibacteria, this is a gram-negative pathogen (caused by any one of 28 different bacteria and 91 strains within these 28 bacteria species), Melafix would not at all be the treatment of choice, as this medication primarily treats gram-positive bacterial diseases.  Along these same lines, if this were the route to take, Pimafix would have been the better choice by far as it primarily treats gram-negative pathogens -- but not because it's the best route to take in combating this disease (as it's not).   
       
      While chlorine bleach is most effective as a topical solution/bath in killing Columnaris bacteria, it needs to be used at a proper strength to be most effective.  These pathogens are especially virulent and resistant to eradication; they can survive freezing in liquid nitrogen for up to three weeks and still be viable.  Still this plan is one way to go if you highly suspect this disease is in both the 10 gallon and the 55 gallon and you have no fish in either tank at this time.  If you have fish in either tank though, it would be much easier to just use a proper treatment for eliminating the disease.
       
      I have no idea as to how much bleach you had in mind to add to your tanks in the effort to sterilize your tanks, but to make sure, I would use about 1 cup of Chlorox per 10 gallons, for at least 24 hours.  I normally use 1 cup of chlorine bleach per 20 gallons as a standing sterilization bath for all my equipment, at all times, using a swimming pool chlorine testing kit to keep the solution at a level where I want it.  I constantly maintain this bath 365 days a year as a disease control for any equipment that's used in multiple tanks, including my water change hoses.    
       
      I'm not sure completely drying the tank will eliminate the pathogen, but of course you don't want any residual Chlorox in the water to adversely affect any fish you add.  I don't very much that drying will eliminate the bacteria if they're present.  Still, the small amount of chlorine in any bleach solution left in the tank will dissipate after 24 hours.  A problem with using a Chlorox bath in sterilizing a tank is that not only do you need to fill the tank to it's extreme top lip in assuring contacting any bacteria that have been in contact with your tank's walls above the normal water level, but the top rim of the tank should be wiped down with a bleach-soaked cloth to prevent any bacteria from being overlooked.  This goes also for the hood that sits on top of the tank, which could now harbor bacteria that got bounced up under there by aeration. I don't see the need for the waste of the Prime though If you're only going to drain the tank afterwards and refill it again.   
       
      But, like I said, if you have fish in any of your tanks now and just plan to move them while treating their tank(s), the pathogens are just going to hitch-hike along for a ride with these fish on their mucus coatings to any other tank you move the fish to.  It's best to treat the fish (not the tank) if you already have fish that have been in contact with this disease.  Use a combination of Nitrofurazone (as either Furan II or as Jungle Lab's Fungus Clear Tank Buddies) and Kanamycin Sulfate (as Seachem's Kanaplex).  Follow the directions on the meds and complete them for the full time stated.  Even repeat if needed.  The Fungus Clear may be a bit better than the Furan II, only as it also contains Potassium Dichromate, but either will be effective as they're both the best treatment of choice as broad-spectrum, gram-negative antibiotics against Columnaris.  Don't hesitate to get back here if I didn't cover everything you need.
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/24/2015 6:19:39 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
      Hey Ray I need some expert advice.
      I just lost two tanks of fish to what I suspect is Columnaris. I first saw what looked like a mold growing on the fish wednesday , wasn’t there tuesday night but wednesday afternoon it was very noticeable. I started a treatment of Melafix because thats what was suggested at LFS and I had no idea what the disease was.

      Within 48 hours two tanks of fish were dead. I’ve never seen anything move so fast
      I’ve drained and moved the 10 gal infected tank outside filled with clorox / water solution , rinsed well and let dry in the sun. I filled it this evening with water and a heavy doe of Prime and will sit over night , then drain and let the sun hit it again until dry.

      The 55 gal tank,I’d rather not have to move unless necessary. I’ve drained and removed all the gravel. My plan is to pull the fluvial apart remove all the media, reinstall and fill the tank with clorox/water and let it circulate for a day , drain rinse well and let dry for a good while ( no hurry now).
      Does that sound like a plan or do I need to go a different route.

      Thanks Harry

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      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56470 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/27/2015
      Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
      AOL Email
      Hi Noura,
       
      Thank goodness those missiles didn't affect your immediate area.  Sure hope there won't be any more at all, but that's beyond anybody's guess.  Good to hear from you as always and glad to know you and your family haven't been hurt.
       
      Getting to the Rosy Barb male, it's quite possible that this new Goldfish companion may have been carrying a disease, especially (but not limited to) if it were a feeder goldfish which aren't as well cared for by stores and often maintained in crowded conditions.  By your description,. it appears it could be Hemorrhagic Septicemia -- as you suspected -- which has several causes; those being, VHSv (viral pathogens), BHS (bacterial [aeromonas] pathogens) and ammonia toxicity.  As the manifestation is very similar with all three causes, it's often difficult to determine what fostered it.  Perhaps the fresh water your mom added with the PWC may have had some ammonia or nitrite content.  If it were a viral infection, these pathogens are usually not very successfully treated so euthanasia would probably be the best course of action here, but as it could just as well be caused by a bacteria infection my stance has always been that were there's life there's still hope.
       
      Most fish can usually go without eating for a short time period, but the smaller the fish is, the less time they can go without eating and still survive an ordeal.  Sick fish usually don't have much of an appetite but live foods can sometimes tempt them to take a small amount of them which would help to sustain them.  The erratic swimming motions of this fish however, could indicate some internal damage and/or at least possibly some reduction in its capability to take enough oxygen from the water.
       
      Antibiotics would be a great benefit if they were available, but unfortunately with this war going on, they're not to be found.  If you have any fish medications in any selection of them you might already have on hand, the medications of choice would be Triple Sulfa, or Oxytetracyline or Erythromycin, administered with Methylene Blue.  If you have none of these three medication on hand, but have anything else, please indicate what they would be so that we could determine if they'd be helpful; they would need to be primarily gram-positive antibiotics if you have any. 
       
      If no medications are at hand to treat a bacterial manifestation of this, in (hopefully) assuming it's 'just' ammonia poisoning, add Methylene Blue to the water at the prescribed rate on the bottle, which will help in enhancing the right type of iron (FE 2+) in the fish's red blood cells, converting any iron that was transformed by the poisoning into useless FE 3+, back into the needed iron form.  This will help in oxygen absorption.  At this same time, add 1 teaspoon of salt per gallon to the water today.  After about 18 hours add another 1 teaspoon of salt per gallon and after yet another 18 hours add still one more teaspoon of salt per gallon, -- for a total of 3 teaspoons per gallon after this time.  Salt will reduce the toxicity to the point of eventually eliminating it, even though it may take some time in doing so.  No guarantees here as we don't know the cause but this will at least offer some chance.
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/27/2015 5:53:35 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hi everyone,

      First of all. We’re all okay despite the four missiles that hit the city during the past 48 hours.

      Hopefully there won’t be more, at least for a while.

      I need urgent help.

      My mom has just brought me her 2 years old Rosy Barb male. He’s been unwell for 3 days. I’m supposed to euthanize him with clove oil. But I thought of trying to save him if possible.

      Symptoms as she described them: Difficulty breathing, rapid vertical circular swimming and upside down swimming then he crashes on the bottom for a while, he hasn’t ate in 3 days.

      The symptoms started 2 days after the weekly partial water change.

      I’m looking at him now, he’s showing these symptoms in the small bag, and I noticed red bloody strikes on some fins, and two fins are torn a little bit. There’s also a small bloody patch under the skin of his head, between the eyes.

      I thought it could be ammonia poisoning. But my mom did a water change yesterday and he didn’t get better.

      She performs regular water changes, but has bought him a small Goldfish companion about  a month ago. The tank is about 9 gallons (too small, I know. I told her that).

      Can I do anything to save him?

      If the treatment involves antibiotics, there aren’t any specialized medications for fish because of the war. So please mentioned if any humans antibiotics will work.

      Do you think he’s hopeless and that I should euthanize him at this stage?

      Thank you,

      Noura

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56471 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/27/2015
      Subject: Re: Columnaris
      AOL Email
      Hi John,
       
      To make it clear here, the "out" part of my water change system, which has the separate set of hoses and pump from drawing out water of course has one end of this hose submersed in the tanks needing to have their water changed.  I assume this is obvious to anyone as water couldn't be removed from the tanks without doing this.  The dropper hoses (from the overhead PVC piping) that add fresh water back into the tanks are never in contact with any aquarium's water; there's no need for that.  Back to the water removal part of the system, 6' feet of the end of the hose that's submersed in the tanks (to draw down water) is always kept in the bleach solution in the one side of my utility tub whenever it's not being used and regardless if any diseases are suspected or not.  When this is done, I turn the pump on for enough time to fill the hose with this bleach solution to keep it free from contamination at all times between use and ready to be safely used the next time without concern. 
       
      Ray
         
       
      In a message dated 1/27/2015 6:11:09 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hi Ray & Harry,

        Harry-so sorry to hear of your losses & also the terrible advice from your LFS which unfortunately is all too common.

      Ray, some interesting reading of your replies to Harry. I was particularly impressed by your water distribution system not actually touching the water surface in each tank & therefore not needing sterilization.

        John<o)))<

      On 25 January 2015 at 22:58, Harry Leverett harryleverett60@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      10-4. Thanks again Ray
      Waiting on the first edition of the book ; )
      Harry

      Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID


      "sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      DO NOT use pool filter sand as a substrate.  It has sharp edges, which serves its purpose well in catching dirt and debris, but it can be injurious to fish.  Cory's can often even have their barbels cut off by it.  If you want to use sand as a substrate -- assuming you're NOT going to grow plants -- get play sand used in kids' sand boxes.  Even then, some brands -- like "Sandtastic" can still have sharp edges -- but most brands are perfectly safe.  Just another excerpt from my "book" which I thought I'd pass along (LOL).  
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/25/2015 12:22:46 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      I forgot to ask last email. Whats your opinion of pool filter sand as a substrate ?


      Harry

      On Jan 25, 2015, at 10:47 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


      Harry, I'm only too glad to help; you're quite welcome.  As for any residual Chlorox, remember that any small amount not being rinsed out will dissipate (as chlorine gas) within 24 hours -- so as long as you don't add fish the same day as you fill your tank, things should be perfectly safe to add fish by the following day.  Well, I used to write a lot for my now defunct aquarium club, as editor of their monthly bulletin, this was many years ago.  I have thought about writing occasionally for one of the national aquarium magazines, but I just never seem to get around to it even though there's one topic in particular I've had in mind for this for several years now.  I do still write sometimes for the aquarium club I've now been in (for almost 25 years).  I doubt I'll ever write a book < g >, but it's a nice thought.  BTW, I just now looked back over my last reply to you and already found two typos -- without going any further than the first paragraph (LOL)!
       
      Best,
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/25/2015 10:25:55 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Thanks again Ray for the help.

      ! cup to 10 sounds great to me. Just printed this email and hung it on my bulletin board for future reference ;)

      I guess I sanitize the python between each tank for now and figure out something different as I go. I was concerned about getting all the bleach off but sounds pretty simple.

      Have you ever thought about writing a book, I’ll buy a dozen copies ( give them for Christmas presents )

      Thanks again
      Harry

      On Jan 25, 2015, at 8:38 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


      Morning Harry,
       
      A half cup bleach per gallon is overkill, and at that rate you'd need to add 110 cups to the 55 gallon tank.  That comes out to nearly 3 1/2 gallons of bleach.  One cup per 10 gallons is quite strong.  Also what enters this is the time allowed for it to be in contact with all the tank's and the equipment's surfaces, as the longer the duration, the greater there disinfectant propensity.  When soaking the Python, water needs to fill the inside of the hose completely as it's being circulated,  As for rinsing it, you just attach it to your faucet as you would for filling the tank and just let fresh water flush it out down the drain.
       
      As for my water changing equipment, first I need to clarify that I use my private well water and not my tap water.  This now tells you that I can't use it directly from the well as it's far too cold -- SO, I have four tanks (yes, fish-less "aquariums") I use for water storage equaling about 500 gallons to allow the temperature to equalize the room temperature before pumping the water into my fish tanks.  The water is pumped directly into these holding tanks for "aging" (temperature equalization); I heat the hatchery via a house-gas space heater rather than using individual electric heaters for each of my tanks, which would cost a small fortune in monthly utility bills if I used Ebo Jagers or Visi-Therms.
       
      That said, I have two water pumps, with two sets of hoses, to move my water.  One set to pump water from my holding tanks to my aquaria via an overhead system of PVC piping, fast-disconnect fittings over the tanks and dropper hoses from the PVC connection to the individual tanks as needed.  This requires no sterilization as nothing is ever in contact with the aquarium water.
       
      Then, I have another water pump and set of hoses used to pump out the water from any tank I select.  Much of the time, I can pump down tank number 2, 3, 4, 5, etc., after first pumping down tank number 1, and then proceed to refill each preceding tank right behind the next tank that's being drawn down -- both at the same time -- to speed the process of PWCing.  However, if & when I least suspect there's any issue going on in a tank, the drain hose's first 6 feet are submerged into that 20 gallons of sterilization "bath" I mentioned as constantly keeping available at all times, and then the pump is turned on to fill the hoses (and the pump's internal parts)  with the chlorine bleach solution to let it stand at least overnight if not longer.  This thoroughly sterilizes the water removal system for it's next use.  The drain hoses and pump are hooked up at all times, the end that's put in the aquariums is always submersed in the bleach bath when not in use and the outlet end of this hose is always fixed to the utility tub to drain (into the side opposite the standing bleach bath) any time it's in use.  The 20 gallon sterilization bath is one side of a double utility tub I have in the hatchery for cleaning filters and doing any other fish maintenance chores.  This one side is always filled with bleach water solution where I'll submerse anything in it that needs it, including nets, but you need to be careful of not allowing nets to soak for too long of a period at any one time as even though most are made with synthetics they may be stitched at the seams with cotton which will disintegrate from long exposure.  I know this may be impractical for Python users, but maybe this method can be adapted somehow.
       
      It's always good to have a fish "medicine chest" available at all times, as anyone may spot a disease at any inopportune time -- in the evening when the fish stores are closed.  These medications should be kept in a refrigerator at all times until needed.  I have a separate refrigerator dedicated for hatchery use, where I store dry fish foods, live fish foods, medications, buffers, test reagents, etc., and use the freezer part for my frozen fish foods.  A hobbyist having a somewhat smaller set up could get one of those small dorm refrigerators.  Some medications to have at all times -- besides having salt on hand -- are Furan II (as it has many applications), Kanaplex (as it has uses separate from combining with Furan II -- as it's one of the few highly absorbable antibiotics available, it's extremely useful for internal issues), Acriflavin, Minocycline (if Kanamycin can't be found), Maracyn (for any gram-positive bacteria disease) and Fungus Clear (which use is not limited only to Fungal issues) to name a few of the most useful ones.  Then, depending on what fish one is keeping, and their susceptibility to certain diseases primarily associated with them, Metronidazole, Tetracycline (if the aquarium water does not exceed pH 7.5), PraziPro and Clout are always good to keep on hand.  Jungle Lab's Internal Parasite Guard is handy too.  Medications are like insurance policies -- you don't really want to use them, but they're the best thing to have on hand -- at all times -- when a problem comes up.      
       
      Preventatives ???   As we can never know what any new fish may have been subjected to, quarantining them is the best way of assuring that any disease they're carrying is not transmitted to your other fishes.  For fish that you've been maintaining all along, there's nothing like large frequent PWC's to keep the fish stress-free of organic waste build-up, which is a prime reason for them becoming susceptible to diseases.  Many pathogens coexist with our fish at all times, without issue (case in point -- Ich), but when they get stressed they're open to contracting any disease pathogens that may be present.  
       
      Ray   
       
       
       
      In a message dated 1/25/2015 6:27:43 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       


      Morning all !

      Ray I soaked the small tank in 1/2 cup bleach per gal. of water but only for an hour. I’ll redo it today at the 1 cup to 10 gal and let sit and the same with the big tank to the rim and wipe down everything with bleach.

      I’m sure I contaminated the big tank with the python when changing water.
      I never even thought about it. I was planning on soaking the python in a trash can with bleach. I have a small transfer pump so to circulate bleach through the hose and back to the trash can. I can’t remember if the hose is 50' or 75’, either way theres a bunch of it.

      How do you handle your water changing equipment, soaking, rinsing , storage? 
      The soaking i don’t see as a problem but the rinsing would seem to be a huge task as far as getting rid of all the bleach.

      What would be a good list of “should have on hand at all times” as far as medicines, treatments and preventives ?

      Thanks again for all the help
      Harry









      On Jan 24, 2015, at 7:16 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


      Hi Harry,
       
      Sorry to hear your fish having this problem, and sorry too for your receiving this bad advice from your LFS.  Losing two tanks of fish is not pleasant.  Yes, Columnaris is usually a fast and aggressive disease.  To help in diagnosing this, could you also describe it as a milky white coating/patch -- but not fuzzy like a fungus?  Assuming your fish had Columnaris/Flexibacteria, this is a gram-negative pathogen (caused by any one of 28 different bacteria and 91 strains within these 28 bacteria species), Melafix would not at all be the treatment of choice, as this medication primarily treats gram-positive bacterial diseases.  Along these same lines, if this were the route to take, Pimafix would have been the better choice by far as it primarily treats gram-negative pathogens -- but not because it's the best route to take in combating this disease (as it's not).   
       
      While chlorine bleach is most effective as a topical solution/bath in killing Columnaris bacteria, it needs to be used at a proper strength to be most effective.  These pathogens are especially virulent and resistant to eradication; they can survive freezing in liquid nitrogen for up to three weeks and still be viable.  Still this plan is one way to go if you highly suspect this disease is in both the 10 gallon and the 55 gallon and you have no fish in either tank at this time.  If you have fish in either tank though, it would be much easier to just use a proper treatment for eliminating the disease.
       
      I have no idea as to how much bleach you had in mind to add to your tanks in the effort to sterilize your tanks, but to make sure, I would use about 1 cup of Chlorox per 10 gallons, for at least 24 hours.  I normally use 1 cup of chlorine bleach per 20 gallons as a standing sterilization bath for all my equipment, at all times, using a swimming pool chlorine testing kit to keep the solution at a level where I want it.  I constantly maintain this bath 365 days a year as a disease control for any equipment that's used in multiple tanks, including my water change hoses.    
       
      I'm not sure completely drying the tank will eliminate the pathogen, but of course you don't want any residual Chlorox in the water to adversely affect any fish you add.  I don't very much that drying will eliminate the bacteria if they're present.  Still, the small amount of chlorine in any bleach solution left in the tank will dissipate after 24 hours.  A problem with using a Chlorox bath in sterilizing a tank is that not only do you need to fill the tank to it's extreme top lip in assuring contacting any bacteria that have been in contact with your tank's walls above the normal water level, but the top rim of the tank should be wiped down with a bleach-soaked cloth to prevent any bacteria from being overlooked.  This goes also for the hood that sits on top of the tank, which could now harbor bacteria that got bounced up under there by aeration. I don't see the need for the waste of the Prime though If you're only going to drain the tank afterwards and refill it again.   
       
      But, like I said, if you have fish in any of your tanks now and just plan to move them while treating their tank(s), the pathogens are just going to hitch-hike along for a ride with these fish on their mucus coatings to any other tank you move the fish to.  It's best to treat the fish (not the tank) if you already have fish that have been in contact with this disease.  Use a combination of Nitrofurazone (as either Furan II or as Jungle Lab's Fungus Clear Tank Buddies) and Kanamycin Sulfate (as Seachem's Kanaplex).  Follow the directions on the meds and complete them for the full time stated.  Even repeat if needed.  The Fungus Clear may be a bit better than the Furan II, only as it also contains Potassium Dichromate, but either will be effective as they're both the best treatment of choice as broad-spectrum, gram-negative antibiotics against Columnaris.  Don't hesitate to get back here if I didn't cover everything you need.
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/24/2015 6:19:39 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
      Hey Ray I need some expert advice.
      I just lost two tanks of fish to what I suspect is Columnaris. I first saw what looked like a mold growing on the fish wednesday , wasn’t there tuesday night but wednesday afternoon it was very noticeable. I started a treatment of Melafix because thats what was suggested at LFS and I had no idea what the disease was.

      Within 48 hours two tanks of fish were dead. I’ve never seen anything move so fast
      I’ve drained and moved the 10 gal infected tank outside filled with clorox / water solution , rinsed well and let dry in the sun. I filled it this evening with water and a heavy doe of Prime and will sit over night , then drain and let the sun hit it again until dry.

      The 55 gal tank,I’d rather not have to move unless necessary. I’ve drained and removed all the gravel. My plan is to pull the fluvial apart remove all the media, reinstall and fill the tank with clorox/water and let it circulate for a day , drain rinse well and let dry for a good while ( no hurry now).
      Does that sound like a plan or do I need to go a different route.

      Thanks Harry

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      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56472 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 1/27/2015
      Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
      Hi Noura,

        So glad you are all safe, let's hope there will be no more attacks.

      I agree with Ray that the problems were probably brought in by the Goldfish. As it's only a small Goldfish the 9 gallon tank should be fine for the time being as long as your Mom is doing some regular partial water changes. I don't know how often you visit her but are there any signs of problems with the Goldfish? As Ray said they are frequently badly cared for at the stores but it may be that the fish is merely a carrier of the problem & not affected by it.  It might be an idea to add some non-iodised salt to the Goldfish tank at the rate of 1 teaspoon per gallon.

        John<o)))<

      On 27 January 2015 at 13:42, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      Hi Noura,
       
      Thank goodness those missiles didn't affect your immediate area.  Sure hope there won't be any more at all, but that's beyond anybody's guess.  Good to hear from you as always and glad to know you and your family haven't been hurt.
       
      Getting to the Rosy Barb male, it's quite possible that this new Goldfish companion may have been carrying a disease, especially (but not limited to) if it were a feeder goldfish which aren't as well cared for by stores and often maintained in crowded conditions.  By your description,. it appears it could be Hemorrhagic Septicemia -- as you suspected -- which has several causes; those being, VHSv (viral pathogens), BHS (bacterial [aeromonas] pathogens) and ammonia toxicity.  As the manifestation is very similar with all three causes, it's often difficult to determine what fostered it.  Perhaps the fresh water your mom added with the PWC may have had some ammonia or nitrite content.  If it were a viral infection, these pathogens are usually not very successfully treated so euthanasia would probably be the best course of action here, but as it could just as well be caused by a bacteria infection my stance has always been that were there's life there's still hope.
       
      Most fish can usually go without eating for a short time period, but the smaller the fish is, the less time they can go without eating and still survive an ordeal.  Sick fish usually don't have much of an appetite but live foods can sometimes tempt them to take a small amount of them which would help to sustain them.  The erratic swimming motions of this fish however, could indicate some internal damage and/or at least possibly some reduction in its capability to take enough oxygen from the water.
       
      Antibiotics would be a great benefit if they were available, but unfortunately with this war going on, they're not to be found.  If you have any fish medications in any selection of them you might already have on hand, the medications of choice would be Triple Sulfa, or Oxytetracyline or Erythromycin, administered with Methylene Blue.  If you have none of these three medication on hand, but have anything else, please indicate what they would be so that we could determine if they'd be helpful; they would need to be primarily gram-positive antibiotics if you have any. 
       
      If no medications are at hand to treat a bacterial manifestation of this, in (hopefully) assuming it's 'just' ammonia poisoning, add Methylene Blue to the water at the prescribed rate on the bottle, which will help in enhancing the right type of iron (FE 2+) in the fish's red blood cells, converting any iron that was transformed by the poisoning into useless FE 3+, back into the needed iron form.  This will help in oxygen absorption.  At this same time, add 1 teaspoon of salt per gallon to the water today.  After about 18 hours add another 1 teaspoon of salt per gallon and after yet another 18 hours add still one more teaspoon of salt per gallon, -- for a total of 3 teaspoons per gallon after this time.  Salt will reduce the toxicity to the point of eventually eliminating it, even though it may take some time in doing so.  No guarantees here as we don't know the cause but this will at least offer some chance.
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/27/2015 5:53:35 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hi everyone,

      First of all. We’re all okay despite the four missiles that hit the city during the past 48 hours.

      Hopefully there won’t be more, at least for a while.

      I need urgent help.

      My mom has just brought me her 2 years old Rosy Barb male. He’s been unwell for 3 days. I’m supposed to euthanize him with clove oil. But I thought of trying to save him if possible.

      Symptoms as she described them: Difficulty breathing, rapid vertical circular swimming and upside down swimming then he crashes on the bottom for a while, he hasn’t ate in 3 days.

      The symptoms started 2 days after the weekly partial water change.

      I’m looking at him now, he’s showing these symptoms in the small bag, and I noticed red bloody strikes on some fins, and two fins are torn a little bit. There’s also a small bloody patch under the skin of his head, between the eyes.

      I thought it could be ammonia poisoning. But my mom did a water change yesterday and he didn’t get better.

      She performs regular water changes, but has bought him a small Goldfish companion about  a month ago. The tank is about 9 gallons (too small, I know. I told her that).

      Can I do anything to save him?

      If the treatment involves antibiotics, there aren’t any specialized medications for fish because of the war. So please mentioned if any humans antibiotics will work.

      Do you think he’s hopeless and that I should euthanize him at this stage?

      Thank you,

      Noura


      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56473 From: Harry Leverett Date: 1/27/2015
      Subject: Re: Columnaris
      I could do something similar but with 2 pythons. One for filling only and one for removal with maybe a couple of changeable suction hoses

      Harry

      Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID


      "sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Hi John,
       
      To make it clear here, the "out" part of my water change system, which has the separate set of hoses and pump from drawing out water of course has one end of this hose submersed in the tanks needing to have their water changed.  I assume this is obvious to anyone as water couldn't be removed from the tanks without doing this.  The dropper hoses (from the overhead PVC piping) that add fresh water back into the tanks are never in contact with any aquarium's water; there's no need for that.  Back to the water removal part of the system, 6' feet of the end of the hose that's submersed in the tanks (to draw down water) is always kept in the bleach solution in the one side of my utility tub whenever it's not being used and regardless if any diseases are suspected or not.  When this is done, I turn the pump on for enough time to fill the hose with this bleach solution to keep it free from contamination at all times between use and ready to be safely used the next time without concern. 
       
      Ray
         
       
      In a message dated 1/27/2015 6:11:09 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hi Ray & Harry,

        Harry-so sorry to hear of your losses & also the terrible advice from your LFS which unfortunately is all too common.

      Ray, some interesting reading of your replies to Harry. I was particularly impressed by your water distribution system not actually touching the water surface in each tank & therefore not needing sterilization.

        John<o)))<

      On 25 January 2015 at 22:58, Harry Leverett harryleverett60@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      10-4. Thanks again Ray
      Waiting on the first edition of the book ; )
      Harry

      Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID


      "sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      DO NOT use pool filter sand as a substrate.  It has sharp edges, which serves its purpose well in catching dirt and debris, but it can be injurious to fish.  Cory's can often even have their barbels cut off by it.  If you want to use sand as a substrate -- assuming you're NOT going to grow plants -- get play sand used in kids' sand boxes.  Even then, some brands -- like "Sandtastic" can still have sharp edges -- but most brands are perfectly safe.  Just another excerpt from my "book" which I thought I'd pass along (LOL).  
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/25/2015 12:22:46 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      I forgot to ask last email. Whats your opinion of pool filter sand as a substrate ?


      Harry

      On Jan 25, 2015, at 10:47 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


      Harry, I'm only too glad to help; you're quite welcome.  As for any residual Chlorox, remember that any small amount not being rinsed out will dissipate (as chlorine gas) within 24 hours -- so as long as you don't add fish the same day as you fill your tank, things should be perfectly safe to add fish by the following day.  Well, I used to write a lot for my now defunct aquarium club, as editor of their monthly bulletin, this was many years ago.  I have thought about writing occasionally for one of the national aquarium magazines, but I just never seem to get around to it even though there's one topic in particular I've had in mind for this for several years now.  I do still write sometimes for the aquarium club I've now been in (for almost 25 years).  I doubt I'll ever write a book < g >, but it's a nice thought.  BTW, I just now looked back over my last reply to you and already found two typos -- without going any further than the first paragraph (LOL)!
       
      Best,
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/25/2015 10:25:55 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Thanks again Ray for the help.

      ! cup to 10 sounds great to me. Just printed this email and hung it on my bulletin board for future reference ;)

      I guess I sanitize the python between each tank for now and figure out something different as I go. I was concerned about getting all the bleach off but sounds pretty simple.

      Have you ever thought about writing a book, I’ll buy a dozen copies ( give them for Christmas presents )

      Thanks again
      Harry

      On Jan 25, 2015, at 8:38 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


      Morning Harry,
       
      A half cup bleach per gallon is overkill, and at that rate you'd need to add 110 cups to the 55 gallon tank.  That comes out to nearly 3 1/2 gallons of bleach.  One cup per 10 gallons is quite strong.  Also what enters this is the time allowed for it to be in contact with all the tank's and the equipment's surfaces, as the longer the duration, the greater there disinfectant propensity.  When soaking the Python, water needs to fill the inside of the hose completely as it's being circulated,  As for rinsing it, you just attach it to your faucet as you would for filling the tank and just let fresh water flush it out down the drain.
       
      As for my water changing equipment, first I need to clarify that I use my private well water and not my tap water.  This now tells you that I can't use it directly from the well as it's far too cold -- SO, I have four tanks (yes, fish-less "aquariums") I use for water storage equaling about 500 gallons to allow the temperature to equalize the room temperature before pumping the water into my fish tanks.  The water is pumped directly into these holding tanks for "aging" (temperature equalization); I heat the hatchery via a house-gas space heater rather than using individual electric heaters for each of my tanks, which would cost a small fortune in monthly utility bills if I used Ebo Jagers or Visi-Therms.
       
      That said, I have two water pumps, with two sets of hoses, to move my water.  One set to pump water from my holding tanks to my aquaria via an overhead system of PVC piping, fast-disconnect fittings over the tanks and dropper hoses from the PVC connection to the individual tanks as needed.  This requires no sterilization as nothing is ever in contact with the aquarium water.
       
      Then, I have another water pump and set of hoses used to pump out the water from any tank I select.  Much of the time, I can pump down tank number 2, 3, 4, 5, etc., after first pumping down tank number 1, and then proceed to refill each preceding tank right behind the next tank that's being drawn down -- both at the same time -- to speed the process of PWCing.  However, if & when I least suspect there's any issue going on in a tank, the drain hose's first 6 feet are submerged into that 20 gallons of sterilization "bath" I mentioned as constantly keeping available at all times, and then the pump is turned on to fill the hoses (and the pump's internal parts)  with the chlorine bleach solution to let it stand at least overnight if not longer.  This thoroughly sterilizes the water removal system for it's next use.  The drain hoses and pump are hooked up at all times, the end that's put in the aquariums is always submersed in the bleach bath when not in use and the outlet end of this hose is always fixed to the utility tub to drain (into the side opposite the standing bleach bath) any time it's in use.  The 20 gallon sterilization bath is one side of a double utility tub I have in the hatchery for cleaning filters and doing any other fish maintenance chores.  This one side is always filled with bleach water solution where I'll submerse anything in it that needs it, including nets, but you need to be careful of not allowing nets to soak for too long of a period at any one time as even though most are made with synthetics they may be stitched at the seams with cotton which will disintegrate from long exposure.  I know this may be impractical for Python users, but maybe this method can be adapted somehow.
       
      It's always good to have a fish "medicine chest" available at all times, as anyone may spot a disease at any inopportune time -- in the evening when the fish stores are closed.  These medications should be kept in a refrigerator at all times until needed.  I have a separate refrigerator dedicated for hatchery use, where I store dry fish foods, live fish foods, medications, buffers, test reagents, etc., and use the freezer part for my frozen fish foods.  A hobbyist having a somewhat smaller set up could get one of those small dorm refrigerators.  Some medications to have at all times -- besides having salt on hand -- are Furan II (as it has many applications), Kanaplex (as it has uses separate from combining with Furan II -- as it's one of the few highly absorbable antibiotics available, it's extremely useful for internal issues), Acriflavin, Minocycline (if Kanamycin can't be found), Maracyn (for any gram-positive bacteria disease) and Fungus Clear (which use is not limited only to Fungal issues) to name a few of the most useful ones.  Then, depending on what fish one is keeping, and their susceptibility to certain diseases primarily associated with them, Metronidazole, Tetracycline (if the aquarium water does not exceed pH 7.5), PraziPro and Clout are always good to keep on hand.  Jungle Lab's Internal Parasite Guard is handy too.  Medications are like insurance policies -- you don't really want to use them, but they're the best thing to have on hand -- at all times -- when a problem comes up.      
       
      Preventatives ???   As we can never know what any new fish may have been subjected to, quarantining them is the best way of assuring that any disease they're carrying is not transmitted to your other fishes.  For fish that you've been maintaining all along, there's nothing like large frequent PWC's to keep the fish stress-free of organic waste build-up, which is a prime reason for them becoming susceptible to diseases.  Many pathogens coexist with our fish at all times, without issue (case in point -- Ich), but when they get stressed they're open to contracting any disease pathogens that may be present.  
       
      Ray   
       
       
       
      In a message dated 1/25/2015 6:27:43 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       


      Morning all !

      Ray I soaked the small tank in 1/2 cup bleach per gal. of water but only for an hour. I’ll redo it today at the 1 cup to 10 gal and let sit and the same with the big tank to the rim and wipe down everything with bleach.

      I’m sure I contaminated the big tank with the python when changing water.
      I never even thought about it. I was planning on soaking the python in a trash can with bleach. I have a small transfer pump so to circulate bleach through the hose and back to the trash can. I can’t remember if the hose is 50' or 75’, either way theres a bunch of it.

      How do you handle your water changing equipment, soaking, rinsing , storage? 
      The soaking i don’t see as a problem but the rinsing would seem to be a huge task as far as getting rid of all the bleach.

      What would be a good list of “should have on hand at all times” as far as medicines, treatments and preventives ?

      Thanks again for all the help
      Harry









      On Jan 24, 2015, at 7:16 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


      Hi Harry,
       
      Sorry to hear your fish having this problem, and sorry too for your receiving this bad advice from your LFS.  Losing two tanks of fish is not pleasant.  Yes, Columnaris is usually a fast and aggressive disease.  To help in diagnosing this, could you also describe it as a milky white coating/patch -- but not fuzzy like a fungus?  Assuming your fish had Columnaris/Flexibacteria, this is a gram-negative pathogen (caused by any one of 28 different bacteria and 91 strains within these 28 bacteria species), Melafix would not at all be the treatment of choice, as this medication primarily treats gram-positive bacterial diseases.  Along these same lines, if this were the route to take, Pimafix would have been the better choice by far as it primarily treats gram-negative pathogens -- but not because it's the best route to take in combating this disease (as it's not).   
       
      While chlorine bleach is most effective as a topical solution/bath in killing Columnaris bacteria, it needs to be used at a proper strength to be most effective.  These pathogens are especially virulent and resistant to eradication; they can survive freezing in liquid nitrogen for up to three weeks and still be viable.  Still this plan is one way to go if you highly suspect this disease is in both the 10 gallon and the 55 gallon and you have no fish in either tank at this time.  If you have fish in either tank though, it would be much easier to just use a proper treatment for eliminating the disease.
       
      I have no idea as to how much bleach you had in mind to add to your tanks in the effort to sterilize your tanks, but to make sure, I would use about 1 cup of Chlorox per 10 gallons, for at least 24 hours.  I normally use 1 cup of chlorine bleach per 20 gallons as a standing sterilization bath for all my equipment, at all times, using a swimming pool chlorine testing kit to keep the solution at a level where I want it.  I constantly maintain this bath 365 days a year as a disease control for any equipment that's used in multiple tanks, including my water change hoses.    
       
      I'm not sure completely drying the tank will eliminate the pathogen, but of course you don't want any residual Chlorox in the water to adversely affect any fish you add.  I don't very much that drying will eliminate the bacteria if they're present.  Still, the small amount of chlorine in any bleach solution left in the tank will dissipate after 24 hours.  A problem with using a Chlorox bath in sterilizing a tank is that not only do you need to fill the tank to it's extreme top lip in assuring contacting any bacteria that have been in contact with your tank's walls above the normal water level, but the top rim of the tank should be wiped down with a bleach-soaked cloth to prevent any bacteria from being overlooked.  This goes also for the hood that sits on top of the tank, which could now harbor bacteria that got bounced up under there by aeration. I don't see the need for the waste of the Prime though If you're only going to drain the tank afterwards and refill it again.   
       
      But, like I said, if you have fish in any of your tanks now and just plan to move them while treating their tank(s), the pathogens are just going to hitch-hike along for a ride with these fish on their mucus coatings to any other tank you move the fish to.  It's best to treat the fish (not the tank) if you already have fish that have been in contact with this disease.  Use a combination of Nitrofurazone (as either Furan II or as Jungle Lab's Fungus Clear Tank Buddies) and Kanamycin Sulfate (as Seachem's Kanaplex).  Follow the directions on the meds and complete them for the full time stated.  Even repeat if needed.  The Fungus Clear may be a bit better than the Furan II, only as it also contains Potassium Dichromate, but either will be effective as they're both the best treatment of choice as broad-spectrum, gram-negative antibiotics against Columnaris.  Don't hesitate to get back here if I didn't cover everything you need.
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/24/2015 6:19:39 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
      Hey Ray I need some expert advice.
      I just lost two tanks of fish to what I suspect is Columnaris. I first saw what looked like a mold growing on the fish wednesday , wasn’t there tuesday night but wednesday afternoon it was very noticeable. I started a treatment of Melafix because thats what was suggested at LFS and I had no idea what the disease was.

      Within 48 hours two tanks of fish were dead. I’ve never seen anything move so fast
      I’ve drained and moved the 10 gal infected tank outside filled with clorox / water solution , rinsed well and let dry in the sun. I filled it this evening with water and a heavy doe of Prime and will sit over night , then drain and let the sun hit it again until dry.

      The 55 gal tank,I’d rather not have to move unless necessary. I’ve drained and removed all the gravel. My plan is to pull the fluvial apart remove all the media, reinstall and fill the tank with clorox/water and let it circulate for a day , drain rinse well and let dry for a good while ( no hurry now).
      Does that sound like a plan or do I need to go a different route.

      Thanks Harry

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      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56474 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/27/2015
      Subject: Re: Columnaris
      AOL Email
      That would work out well if you don't mind the extra expense for a second Python.  Could go a long way in preventing fish losses in the long run.  I realize many hobbyist have only a tank or two and most hobbyist have only one Python, but then they never thought of possible disease transmittal when using it in two or more tanks.  Probably good "insurance" against this possibility.  Actually, the fill hose needs to be nothing more than a length of garden hose if you have an adapter on your faucet that it would fit.
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/27/2015 9:24:24 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      I could do something similar but with 2 pythons. One for filling only and one for removal with maybe a couple of changeable suction hoses

      Harry

      Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID


      "sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Hi John,
       
      To make it clear here, the "out" part of my water change system, which has the separate set of hoses and pump from drawing out water of course has one end of this hose submersed in the tanks needing to have their water changed.  I assume this is obvious to anyone as water couldn't be removed from the tanks without doing this.  The dropper hoses (from the overhead PVC piping) that add fresh water back into the tanks are never in contact with any aquarium's water; there's no need for that.  Back to the water removal part of the system, 6' feet of the end of the hose that's submersed in the tanks (to draw down water) is always kept in the bleach solution in the one side of my utility tub whenever it's not being used and regardless if any diseases are suspected or not.  When this is done, I turn the pump on for enough time to fill the hose with this bleach solution to keep it free from contamination at all times between use and ready to be safely used the next time without concern. 
       
      Ray
         
       
      In a message dated 1/27/2015 6:11:09 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hi Ray & Harry,

        Harry-so sorry to hear of your losses & also the terrible advice from your LFS which unfortunately is all too common.

      Ray, some interesting reading of your replies to Harry. I was particularly impressed by your water distribution system not actually touching the water surface in each tank & therefore not needing sterilization.

        John<o)))<

      On 25 January 2015 at 22:58, Harry Leverett harryleverett60@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      10-4. Thanks again Ray
      Waiting on the first edition of the book ; )
      Harry

      Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID


      "sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      DO NOT use pool filter sand as a substrate.  It has sharp edges, which serves its purpose well in catching dirt and debris, but it can be injurious to fish.  Cory's can often even have their barbels cut off by it.  If you want to use sand as a substrate -- assuming you're NOT going to grow plants -- get play sand used in kids' sand boxes.  Even then, some brands -- like "Sandtastic" can still have sharp edges -- but most brands are perfectly safe.  Just another excerpt from my "book" which I thought I'd pass along (LOL).  
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/25/2015 12:22:46 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      I forgot to ask last email. Whats your opinion of pool filter sand as a substrate ?


      Harry

      On Jan 25, 2015, at 10:47 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


      Harry, I'm only too glad to help; you're quite welcome.  As for any residual Chlorox, remember that any small amount not being rinsed out will dissipate (as chlorine gas) within 24 hours -- so as long as you don't add fish the same day as you fill your tank, things should be perfectly safe to add fish by the following day.  Well, I used to write a lot for my now defunct aquarium club, as editor of their monthly bulletin, this was many years ago.  I have thought about writing occasionally for one of the national aquarium magazines, but I just never seem to get around to it even though there's one topic in particular I've had in mind for this for several years now.  I do still write sometimes for the aquarium club I've now been in (for almost 25 years).  I doubt I'll ever write a book < g >, but it's a nice thought.  BTW, I just now looked back over my last reply to you and already found two typos -- without going any further than the first paragraph (LOL)!
       
      Best,
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/25/2015 10:25:55 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Thanks again Ray for the help.

      ! cup to 10 sounds great to me. Just printed this email and hung it on my bulletin board for future reference ;)

      I guess I sanitize the python between each tank for now and figure out something different as I go. I was concerned about getting all the bleach off but sounds pretty simple.

      Have you ever thought about writing a book, I’ll buy a dozen copies ( give them for Christmas presents )

      Thanks again
      Harry

      On Jan 25, 2015, at 8:38 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


      Morning Harry,
       
      A half cup bleach per gallon is overkill, and at that rate you'd need to add 110 cups to the 55 gallon tank.  That comes out to nearly 3 1/2 gallons of bleach.  One cup per 10 gallons is quite strong.  Also what enters this is the time allowed for it to be in contact with all the tank's and the equipment's surfaces, as the longer the duration, the greater there disinfectant propensity.  When soaking the Python, water needs to fill the inside of the hose completely as it's being circulated,  As for rinsing it, you just attach it to your faucet as you would for filling the tank and just let fresh water flush it out down the drain.
       
      As for my water changing equipment, first I need to clarify that I use my private well water and not my tap water.  This now tells you that I can't use it directly from the well as it's far too cold -- SO, I have four tanks (yes, fish-less "aquariums") I use for water storage equaling about 500 gallons to allow the temperature to equalize the room temperature before pumping the water into my fish tanks.  The water is pumped directly into these holding tanks for "aging" (temperature equalization); I heat the hatchery via a house-gas space heater rather than using individual electric heaters for each of my tanks, which would cost a small fortune in monthly utility bills if I used Ebo Jagers or Visi-Therms.
       
      That said, I have two water pumps, with two sets of hoses, to move my water.  One set to pump water from my holding tanks to my aquaria via an overhead system of PVC piping, fast-disconnect fittings over the tanks and dropper hoses from the PVC connection to the individual tanks as needed.  This requires no sterilization as nothing is ever in contact with the aquarium water.
       
      Then, I have another water pump and set of hoses used to pump out the water from any tank I select.  Much of the time, I can pump down tank number 2, 3, 4, 5, etc., after first pumping down tank number 1, and then proceed to refill each preceding tank right behind the next tank that's being drawn down -- both at the same time -- to speed the process of PWCing.  However, if & when I least suspect there's any issue going on in a tank, the drain hose's first 6 feet are submerged into that 20 gallons of sterilization "bath" I mentioned as constantly keeping available at all times, and then the pump is turned on to fill the hoses (and the pump's internal parts)  with the chlorine bleach solution to let it stand at least overnight if not longer.  This thoroughly sterilizes the water removal system for it's next use.  The drain hoses and pump are hooked up at all times, the end that's put in the aquariums is always submersed in the bleach bath when not in use and the outlet end of this hose is always fixed to the utility tub to drain (into the side opposite the standing bleach bath) any time it's in use.  The 20 gallon sterilization bath is one side of a double utility tub I have in the hatchery for cleaning filters and doing any other fish maintenance chores.  This one side is always filled with bleach water solution where I'll submerse anything in it that needs it, including nets, but you need to be careful of not allowing nets to soak for too long of a period at any one time as even though most are made with synthetics they may be stitched at the seams with cotton which will disintegrate from long exposure.  I know this may be impractical for Python users, but maybe this method can be adapted somehow.
       
      It's always good to have a fish "medicine chest" available at all times, as anyone may spot a disease at any inopportune time -- in the evening when the fish stores are closed.  These medications should be kept in a refrigerator at all times until needed.  I have a separate refrigerator dedicated for hatchery use, where I store dry fish foods, live fish foods, medications, buffers, test reagents, etc., and use the freezer part for my frozen fish foods.  A hobbyist having a somewhat smaller set up could get one of those small dorm refrigerators.  Some medications to have at all times -- besides having salt on hand -- are Furan II (as it has many applications), Kanaplex (as it has uses separate from combining with Furan II -- as it's one of the few highly absorbable antibiotics available, it's extremely useful for internal issues), Acriflavin, Minocycline (if Kanamycin can't be found), Maracyn (for any gram-positive bacteria disease) and Fungus Clear (which use is not limited only to Fungal issues) to name a few of the most useful ones.  Then, depending on what fish one is keeping, and their susceptibility to certain diseases primarily associated with them, Metronidazole, Tetracycline (if the aquarium water does not exceed pH 7.5), PraziPro and Clout are always good to keep on hand.  Jungle Lab's Internal Parasite Guard is handy too.  Medications are like insurance policies -- you don't really want to use them, but they're the best thing to have on hand -- at all times -- when a problem comes up.      
       
      Preventatives ???   As we can never know what any new fish may have been subjected to, quarantining them is the best way of assuring that any disease they're carrying is not transmitted to your other fishes.  For fish that you've been maintaining all along, there's nothing like large frequent PWC's to keep the fish stress-free of organic waste build-up, which is a prime reason for them becoming susceptible to diseases.  Many pathogens coexist with our fish at all times, without issue (case in point -- Ich), but when they get stressed they're open to contracting any disease pathogens that may be present.  
       
      Ray   
       
       
       
      In a message dated 1/25/2015 6:27:43 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       


      Morning all !

      Ray I soaked the small tank in 1/2 cup bleach per gal. of water but only for an hour. I’ll redo it today at the 1 cup to 10 gal and let sit and the same with the big tank to the rim and wipe down everything with bleach.

      I’m sure I contaminated the big tank with the python when changing water.
      I never even thought about it. I was planning on soaking the python in a trash can with bleach. I have a small transfer pump so to circulate bleach through the hose and back to the trash can. I can’t remember if the hose is 50' or 75’, either way theres a bunch of it.

      How do you handle your water changing equipment, soaking, rinsing , storage? 
      The soaking i don’t see as a problem but the rinsing would seem to be a huge task as far as getting rid of all the bleach.

      What would be a good list of “should have on hand at all times” as far as medicines, treatments and preventives ?

      Thanks again for all the help
      Harry









      On Jan 24, 2015, at 7:16 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


      Hi Harry,
       
      Sorry to hear your fish having this problem, and sorry too for your receiving this bad advice from your LFS.  Losing two tanks of fish is not pleasant.  Yes, Columnaris is usually a fast and aggressive disease.  To help in diagnosing this, could you also describe it as a milky white coating/patch -- but not fuzzy like a fungus?  Assuming your fish had Columnaris/Flexibacteria, this is a gram-negative pathogen (caused by any one of 28 different bacteria and 91 strains within these 28 bacteria species), Melafix would not at all be the treatment of choice, as this medication primarily treats gram-positive bacterial diseases.  Along these same lines, if this were the route to take, Pimafix would have been the better choice by far as it primarily treats gram-negative pathogens -- but not because it's the best route to take in combating this disease (as it's not).   
       
      While chlorine bleach is most effective as a topical solution/bath in killing Columnaris bacteria, it needs to be used at a proper strength to be most effective.  These pathogens are especially virulent and resistant to eradication; they can survive freezing in liquid nitrogen for up to three weeks and still be viable.  Still this plan is one way to go if you highly suspect this disease is in both the 10 gallon and the 55 gallon and you have no fish in either tank at this time.  If you have fish in either tank though, it would be much easier to just use a proper treatment for eliminating the disease.
       
      I have no idea as to how much bleach you had in mind to add to your tanks in the effort to sterilize your tanks, but to make sure, I would use about 1 cup of Chlorox per 10 gallons, for at least 24 hours.  I normally use 1 cup of chlorine bleach per 20 gallons as a standing sterilization bath for all my equipment, at all times, using a swimming pool chlorine testing kit to keep the solution at a level where I want it.  I constantly maintain this bath 365 days a year as a disease control for any equipment that's used in multiple tanks, including my water change hoses.    
       
      I'm not sure completely drying the tank will eliminate the pathogen, but of course you don't want any residual Chlorox in the water to adversely affect any fish you add.  I don't very much that drying will eliminate the bacteria if they're present.  Still, the small amount of chlorine in any bleach solution left in the tank will dissipate after 24 hours.  A problem with using a Chlorox bath in sterilizing a tank is that not only do you need to fill the tank to it's extreme top lip in assuring contacting any bacteria that have been in contact with your tank's walls above the normal water level, but the top rim of the tank should be wiped down with a bleach-soaked cloth to prevent any bacteria from being overlooked.  This goes also for the hood that sits on top of the tank, which could now harbor bacteria that got bounced up under there by aeration. I don't see the need for the waste of the Prime though If you're only going to drain the tank afterwards and refill it again.   
       
      But, like I said, if you have fish in any of your tanks now and just plan to move them while treating their tank(s), the pathogens are just going to hitch-hike along for a ride with these fish on their mucus coatings to any other tank you move the fish to.  It's best to treat the fish (not the tank) if you already have fish that have been in contact with this disease.  Use a combination of Nitrofurazone (as either Furan II or as Jungle Lab's Fungus Clear Tank Buddies) and Kanamycin Sulfate (as Seachem's Kanaplex).  Follow the directions on the meds and complete them for the full time stated.  Even repeat if needed.  The Fungus Clear may be a bit better than the Furan II, only as it also contains Potassium Dichromate, but either will be effective as they're both the best treatment of choice as broad-spectrum, gram-negative antibiotics against Columnaris.  Don't hesitate to get back here if I didn't cover everything you need.
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/24/2015 6:19:39 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
      Hey Ray I need some expert advice.
      I just lost two tanks of fish to what I suspect is Columnaris. I first saw what looked like a mold growing on the fish wednesday , wasn’t there tuesday night but wednesday afternoon it was very noticeable. I started a treatment of Melafix because thats what was suggested at LFS and I had no idea what the disease was.

      Within 48 hours two tanks of fish were dead. I’ve never seen anything move so fast
      I’ve drained and moved the 10 gal infected tank outside filled with clorox / water solution , rinsed well and let dry in the sun. I filled it this evening with water and a heavy doe of Prime and will sit over night , then drain and let the sun hit it again until dry.

      The 55 gal tank,I’d rather not have to move unless necessary. I’ve drained and removed all the gravel. My plan is to pull the fluvial apart remove all the media, reinstall and fill the tank with clorox/water and let it circulate for a day , drain rinse well and let dry for a good while ( no hurry now).
      Does that sound like a plan or do I need to go a different route.

      Thanks Harry

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      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56475 From: noura_taweel Date: 1/27/2015
      Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
      Hi Ray and John!
      Thank you for the valuable advice.
      There is an additional info. Now that I've put the Barb in a small tank, I noticed that he's mainly swimming upside down. I can't even call it a swimming, it's more like random movements, it seems he's suffering.
      I will add the first amount of salt right now. I'm increasing his water gradually because all I have from his old tank is the bag he came in.
      I don't think he'll even notice any food in his current condition. He's either doing those circular movements, or lying on his side gasping on the bottom.

      I will probably have a short trip down town tonight if no more missiles hit. We heard 6 of them today but all were in the suburbs, we knew there was a total of 14 missiles, 3 civilians died :(
      I'll check the pet shop and see if they have anything, and hope that it has not exceeded the expiry date (their fish food's expiry date was 2012 last time I checked!).

      I will look for Erythromycin for humans, if no aquatic medications were available. The problem is that our pet medications rarely ever mention the active ingredients, they just mention the indication (disease).

      I have also called my mom. The goldfish is a 1.5 inch fancy goldfish. She will add salt gradually.

      Thanks for all the help.
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56476 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/27/2015
      Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
      AOL Email
      Hi Noura,
       
      I'm so sorry about hearing of 3 civilians dying because of the missile strikes.  I know these unfortunate things go on all the time in your country.  We can only hope there's an end to this war soon, even though it does look like that will be in the near future.
       
      As I assumed that you had added this Barb to a small tank before I had the chance to reply to you, I didn't suggest testing the bag's water (for pH, ammonia or any other nitrogenous waste).  If you still have the bag and if there's enough water left in it to do a few test, take them; it might be helpful.  Otherwise, you've done everything you can so far.  That the fish is upside down does not necessarily indicate that it's suffering, nor does it necessarily mean there's any internal damage, although there still could be. 
       
      It might be helpful if you still did a pH and ammonia test on this small tank's water.  If it shows any slight amount of ammonia this would mean that the bag water must have had a much higher ammonia level even though it just received a PWC.  I actually don't expect to see any ammonia in this small tank but I don't want to overlook anything. 
       
      Don't go spending too much for human medication.  You need to draw the line somewhere on how much you can afford, even though we can't set a value on any fish's life.  The price of a fish that we pay for them does not mean that any cheaper fish's life is not worth the same as a more expensive fish.  It's too bad that the fish medications that are available don't show the ingredients.  I doubt very much that you would have the same brand names available by you as are available in the States or in the UK.  I would have suggested a few medications by brand name if I thought you had them there.  If you have Methylene Blue, add that to the tank, but I need to tell you it will stain the silicone sealant, if that matters to you.  This medication is fairly commonly used universally, so there's a good chance your fish store should have it.  Also, I believe it's just called by that name all over the world so it should be easily recognizable.  It's a dark blue liquid solution.  Could be called a Fungus remedy, but it had many uses. 
       
      Oh, one other thing -- I don't know if you need to be directed to do so, but always dissolve the salt in a cup of water first before adding it to the tank.
       
      Ray
         
       
      In a message dated 1/27/2015 11:19:06 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hi Ray and John!
      Thank you for the valuable advice.
      There is an additional info. Now that I've put the Barb in a small tank, I noticed that he's mainly swimming upside down. I can't even call it a swimming, it's more like random movements, it seems he's suffering.
      I will add the first amount of salt right now. I'm increasing his water gradually because all I have from his old tank is the bag he came in.
      I don't think he'll even notice any food in his current condition. He's either doing those circular movements, or lying on his side gasping on the bottom.

      I will probably have a short trip down town tonight if no more missiles hit. We heard 6 of them today but all were in the suburbs, we knew there was a total of 14 missiles, 3 civilians died :(
      I'll check the pet shop and see if they have anything, and hope that it has not exceeded the expiry date (their fish food's expiry date was 2012 last time I checked!).

      I will look for Erythromycin for humans, if no aquatic medications were available. The problem is that our pet medications rarely ever mention the active ingredients, they just mention the indication (disease).

      I have also called my mom. The goldfish is a 1.5 inch fancy goldfish. She will add salt gradually.

      Thanks for all the help.

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56477 From: noura_taweel Date: 1/27/2015
      Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
      One more thing..
      As there was so much going on here, I haven't cared to keep an equipped hospital tank ready. The Brab is now in a small tank with no heater or filter. I will need to do a lot of PWCs. The water temperature is 20 C at the moment. I've googled and found they need 22 C at least. So I'll see if I can find a small heater at the LFS as well.

      My mom told me that the Goldfish was only bought 2 weeks ago, not 4 weeks. So it's very possible that it brought the disease to the tank.

      Noura
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56478 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/27/2015
      Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
      AOL Email
      Noura,
       
      Yes, 20 o is just a little to cool for Barbs.  They need a minimum of 21.1 o, and 22 o (or higher) would be much better.  You don't want to risk having this fish get Ich on top of the problem it has now.  While I don't want to see you go to too much expense on this fish, your small spare tank should have a heater in any case, for any other fish you add to it at some time.  What you could do in the meantime is to heat some tap water and fill a small container with it -- and float it in the tank until the temperature comes up.  You could even raise it to 23 o and as soon as you see it drop to 22 o, repeat the same thing with heated water.  Some of us here on the east coast of the States who thought to do this during power outages lasting up to 10 days or more after Hurricane "Sandy" were able to save our fish this way.  Many who didn't think of this lost lots of fish.  A smaller tank we need to be watched more carefully though, as it will cool down sooner and you want to avoid any wide fluctuations too.
       
      Looks more like the Goldfish could have introduced the disease (if this condition is not ammonia-related), but we may never know.  Sometimes we can't be too careful and we never think about these things that can happen in the aquarium.
       
      Ray
       
      In a message dated 1/27/2015 11:49:37 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      One more thing..
      As there was so much going on here, I haven't cared to keep an equipped hospital tank ready. The Brab is now in a small tank with no heater or filter. I will need to do a lot of PWCs. The water temperature is 20 C at the moment. I've googled and found they need 22 C at least. So I'll see if I can find a small heater at the LFS as well.

      My mom told me that the Goldfish was only bought 2 weeks ago, not 4 weeks. So it's very possible that it brought the disease to the tank.

      Noura

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56479 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/27/2015
      Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
      AOL Email
      Meant to write; Even though it DOESN'T look like that will happen in the near future.
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/27/2015 11:49:03 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hi Noura,
       
      I'm so sorry about hearing of 3 civilians dying because of the missile strikes.  I know these unfortunate things go on all the time in your country.  We can only hope there's an end to this war soon, even though it does look like that will be in the near future.
       
      As I assumed that you had added this Barb to a small tank before I had the chance to reply to you, I didn't suggest testing the bag's water (for pH, ammonia or any other nitrogenous waste).  If you still have the bag and if there's enough water left in it to do a few test, take them; it might be helpful.  Otherwise, you've done everything you can so far.  That the fish is upside down does not necessarily indicate that it's suffering, nor does it necessarily mean there's any internal damage, although there still could be. 
       
      It might be helpful if you still did a pH and ammonia test on this small tank's water.  If it shows any slight amount of ammonia this would mean that the bag water must have had a much higher ammonia level even though it just received a PWC.  I actually don't expect to see any ammonia in this small tank but I don't want to overlook anything. 
       
      Don't go spending too much for human medication.  You need to draw the line somewhere on how much you can afford, even though we can't set a value on any fish's life.  The price of a fish that we pay for them does not mean that any cheaper fish's life is not worth the same as a more expensive fish.  It's too bad that the fish medications that are available don't show the ingredients.  I doubt very much that you would have the same brand names available by you as are available in the States or in the UK.  I would have suggested a few medications by brand name if I thought you had them there.  If you have Methylene Blue, add that to the tank, but I need to tell you it will stain the silicone sealant, if that matters to you.  This medication is fairly commonly used universally, so there's a good chance your fish store should have it.  Also, I believe it's just called by that name all over the world so it should be easily recognizable.  It's a dark blue liquid solution.  Could be called a Fungus remedy, but it had many uses. 
       
      Oh, one other thing -- I don't know if you need to be directed to do so, but always dissolve the salt in a cup of water first before adding it to the tank.
       
      Ray
         
       
      In a message dated 1/27/2015 11:19:06 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hi Ray and John!
      Thank you for the valuable advice.
      There is an additional info. Now that I've put the Barb in a small tank, I noticed that he's mainly swimming upside down. I can't even call it a swimming, it's more like random movements, it seems he's suffering.
      I will add the first amount of salt right now. I'm increasing his water gradually because all I have from his old tank is the bag he came in.
      I don't think he'll even notice any food in his current condition. He's either doing those circular movements, or lying on his side gasping on the bottom.

      I will probably have a short trip down town tonight if no more missiles hit. We heard 6 of them today but all were in the suburbs, we knew there was a total of 14 missiles, 3 civilians died :(
      I'll check the pet shop and see if they have anything, and hope that it has not exceeded the expiry date (their fish food's expiry date was 2012 last time I checked!).

      I will look for Erythromycin for humans, if no aquatic medications were available. The problem is that our pet medications rarely ever mention the active ingredients, they just mention the indication (disease).

      I have also called my mom. The goldfish is a 1.5 inch fancy goldfish. She will add salt gradually.

      Thanks for all the help.

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56480 From: noura_taweel Date: 1/27/2015
      Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
      Hi again,

      The local pet store did not carry ANY fish medications. Nothing at all! Not even methylene blue, which was always available before. So I bought Erythromycin for humans (250 mg/tablet) - It wasn't too expensive :)
       How much should I add per gallon?

      I bought a new heater for the hospital tank. I set the temperature at 25 C.
      And I also got a new bottle of Clove Oil, as the one I had is almost empty. Hopefully I won't need it for this little guy, not too optimistic though.. He's on the bottom, lying on his side, gasping and moving his fins.

      Ray, the original water is all diluted in the hospital tank at the moment. And the only test kit that I have has expired over 3 years ago (API Master Test Kit). It was brought by a friend from the US, we don't have such products here.

      How often and how much do you recommend for PWCs. I will replace the salt with each PWC.
      There's no filter, as I mentioned before.

      Thank you so much for your time!
      Noura
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56481 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/27/2015
      Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
      AOL Email
      Hi Noura,
       
      Add one 250 mg tablet of Erythromycin per 10 gallons.  If the tank is smaller than this you'll need to try cutting the tablet to an approximate size as needed.  For 5 gallon tank, cut the tablet in half.  For a 3 gallon tank cut the tablet in half and after doing so, cut about a third of this off (but don't throw it away).  Use the large portion for the tank.  
      Setting the temperature to 25 o is perfect.  Keep a watch out for any Ich flakes.  His condition doesn't sound very hopeful, but anything's worth a try.  Okay on the water tests; I understand there are a lot of products you can't get.
       
      With having no filter in this tank, it can become difficult to maintain a relatively ammonia-free environment in the tank, especially without a filter.  Normal maintenance would be for changing 1/3 of the tank's water each week.  You may well need to change more as time goes on to keep the ammonia from building up too much.  First though, before I proceed further, how large is this tank?  One other thing for now; when replacing the salt when doing a PWC, only add back the amount of salt you removed.  For example, if you have 3 teaspoons of salt per gallon in the tank and you do a 1/3 PWC, you only add back 1 teaspoon per gallon.
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/27/2015 5:34:14 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hi again,

      The local pet store did not carry ANY fish medications. Nothing at all! Not even methylene blue, which was always available before. So I bought Erythromycin for humans (250 mg/tablet) - It wasn't too expensive :)
       How much should I add per gallon?

      I bought a new heater for the hospital tank. I set the temperature at 25 C.
      And I also got a new bottle of Clove Oil, as the one I had is almost empty. Hopefully I won't need it for this little guy, not too optimistic though.. He's on the bottom, lying on his side, gasping and moving his fins.

      Ray, the original water is all diluted in the hospital tank at the moment. And the only test kit that I have has expired over 3 years ago (API Master Test Kit). It was brought by a friend from the US, we don't have such products here.

      How often and how much do you recommend for PWCs. I will replace the salt with each PWC.
      There's no filter, as I mentioned before.

      Thank you so much for your time!
      Noura

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56482 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 1/27/2015
      Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
      Hi Noura,

        Almost certainly the Goldfish brought this in then. The salt will hopefully purge anything nasty that he is carrying so at least he should be ok. You are doing a wonderful job for these fish under extremely difficult circumstances-take care.

        John<o)))<

      On 27 January 2015 at 16:07, n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      Hi Ray and John!
      Thank you for the valuable advice.
      There is an additional info. Now that I've put the Barb in a small tank, I noticed that he's mainly swimming upside down. I can't even call it a swimming, it's more like random movements, it seems he's suffering.
      I will add the first amount of salt right now. I'm increasing his water gradually because all I have from his old tank is the bag he came in.
      I don't think he'll even notice any food in his current condition. He's either doing those circular movements, or lying on his side gasping on the bottom.

      I will probably have a short trip down town tonight if no more missiles hit. We heard 6 of them today but all were in the suburbs, we knew there was a total of 14 missiles, 3 civilians died :(
      I'll check the pet shop and see if they have anything, and hope that it has not exceeded the expiry date (their fish food's expiry date was 2012 last time I checked!).

      I will look for Erythromycin for humans, if no aquatic medications were available. The problem is that our pet medications rarely ever mention the active ingredients, they just mention the indication (disease).

      I have also called my mom. The goldfish is a 1.5 inch fancy goldfish. She will add salt gradually.

      Thanks for all the help.


      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56483 From: noura_taweel Date: 1/27/2015
      Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
      Thank you Ray!
      Yes it's always a good idea to keep a spare heater at home :)
      As for the costs. It's okay, I can afford them. I also can't stand the thought that something could have been done, and I didn't do it. Mom thinks that I have already euthanized her fish.

      The hospital tank is a 2 gallon tank. I used it for livebearers fry in the past.
      So I need 1/5 a tablet of Erythromycin for that. I'll crush and dissolve half a tablet in 5 ml of water, and add only 2 ml of that to the tank. I hope I did my math correctly!


      Should I replace the medication when I do PWCs? Or should I just replace the salt?
      Assuming that the fish survives for a few more days, when should I repeat the dose?
      Is changing 1/3 the water everyday enough? I can change as much as is needed, we don't have any water problems, thank God!

      Thanks again, and always!
      Noura
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56484 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/27/2015
      Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
      AOL Email
      Hi Noura,
       
      Yes, your math looks good.  Might be the most accurate way to use the needed 1/5 of a tablet, but you're wasting a lot of it if you throw 3/10 of it away.  As this medication needs to be re-dosed every other day, perhaps you could put the remainder of the solution in the refrigerator and give the fish 2/3 of this remainder two days from now, although I'm not sure if it would still be as useful at that time; it might not be.  Even though it's a waste, the best thing to do would probably be to use (dissolve) the other half  tablet the next time. . 
       
      Yes, you'd need to replace the medication when you do PWC's.  While you ordinarily wouldn't need to make a PWC this soon (in 2 days) at this time, as this tank isn't very large you will soon need to make larger and more frequent PWC's to keep the ammonia from rising.  Assuming the fish is (hopefully) still alive at that time, make this first PWC in 2 days and do a 50% PWC.  Unlike salt though, which would need only half of it replaced at that time, medication must be given at full dose each time, so repeat the same steps as you do this time.
       
      After another 2 days (again, assuming the fish is still alive), make a 75% PWC and add back 1 1/2 teaspoons of salt.  Re-dose the same amount of medication again.  After seeing how the fish is doing after this amount of time, I'll reevaluate things then, with the expectation of doing a 50% PWC the following day.
       
      BTW, even though your test kit is 3 years old, if you still have it, do a pH test right now.  It may be very slightly inaccurate but the pH test reagent is usually the last one to be adversely affected by the expiration time.  It could be helpful towards knowing how toxic any small amount of ammonia given off by this fish might be.  While on this subject, I don't remember if the subject ever came up as to whether your water company adds just chlorine to your water or whether it adds chloramine, necessitating that your water conditioner requires that it's a chloramine remover (or is it just a chlorine remover).  What I'm getting at is, if you use a dechlorinaminator, you can dose the tank with that each day which will render any amount of ammonia build up safe between PWC's.       
       
      Ray
             
       
      In a message dated 1/27/2015 8:28:02 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Thank you Ray!
      Yes it's always a good idea to keep a spare heater at home :)
      As for the costs. It's okay, I can afford them. I also can't stand the thought that something could have been done, and I didn't do it. Mom thinks that I have already euthanized her fish.

      The hospital tank is a 2 gallon tank. I used it for livebearers fry in the past.
      So I need 1/5 a tablet of Erythromycin for that. I'll crush and dissolve half a tablet in 5 ml of water, and add only 2 ml of that to the tank. I hope I did my math correctly!


      Should I replace the medication when I do PWCs? Or should I just replace the salt?
      Assuming that the fish survives for a few more days, when should I repeat the dose?
      Is changing 1/3 the water everyday enough? I can change as much as is needed, we don't have any water problems, thank God!

      Thanks again, and always!
      Noura

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56485 From: noura_taweel Date: 1/28/2015
      Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
      Hi Ray,
      The fish is still alive, not doing better, neither worse. He's a fighter :)

      I did a 40% PWC this morning, replaced the salt and added the second batch of 2 tsp of salt as it's been 18 hours already, I also added the first dose of Erythromycin (50 mg).

      Tomorrow morning I will add the 3rd and last batch of salt (2 tsp).

      It's okay, I don't need to keep any prepared Erythromycin solution. The bottle contains 20 tablets, I'll be only using 2 tablets for 4 freshly made doses.

      And, surprise! I found an old bottle of Methylene Blue as I was looking for the test kit! This stuff doesn't expire in a few years, as far as I know. I've just added the prescribed dose.

      So now the tank includes salt + Erythromycin + Methylene Blue.. + one sick fish!

      I'll do both the pH and Ammonia tests with my "expired" kit, and report back later today.

      I have no idea what type of chlorine is in our water, these information are not available unless one personally knows a worker in the water company. I also don't know what my chlorine remover works on, the bottle only says "Removes chlorine ions", which could mean both or any of the two types.
      It has expired 3 years ago. Do you think it would be safe to use it?

      Thank you :)
      Noura
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56486 From: noura_taweel Date: 1/28/2015
      Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
      Thanks for your kind words, John :)
      You would have done the same.

      I agree, it's probably the Goldfish. My mom told me that he's not showing any signs, but they are sturdy fish. I'm taking the goldfish to any fish store if the barb survives.
      However the ammonia poisoning is also quite possible, with the long power outages (9-12 hours a day).
      I don't know how much of the N-Bacteria are surviving in the filter after 3 hours. And that is repeated 3 or 4 times a day. Looking at my own fish condition, I would say that our N-bacteria have also become more and more accustomed to the harsh conditions. We should export this tough and improved strain to you guys some time in the future :)

      Noura
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56487 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 1/28/2015
      Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
      Hi Noura,

        Yes, I guess I would! Goldfish are resilient but I lost one of mine on Jan 3rd despite struggling to keep him alive with Baytil shots etc, he was 10 & the size of a softball. He had some bacterial issues & some secondary infections which proved too much for him. That leaves me with two-curiously they are the two oldest at 11 & 12, both big pond Comets.

       I know there is some die-off with the good bacteria as soon as it has it's oxygen supply cut [which is the flow] but I think it is minimal. Certainly ponds that have had power outages which I've not been able to visit for 24 hours or more afterwards show little or no decrease in water quality when fired back up. I know it's on a larger scale but the principle's the same.

        John<o)))<

       

      On 28 January 2015 at 08:09, n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      Thanks for your kind words, John :)
      You would have done the same.

      I agree, it's probably the Goldfish. My mom told me that he's not showing any signs, but they are sturdy fish. I'm taking the goldfish to any fish store if the barb survives.
      However the ammonia poisoning is also quite possible, with the long power outages (9-12 hours a day).
      I don't know how much of the N-Bacteria are surviving in the filter after 3 hours. And that is repeated 3 or 4 times a day. Looking at my own fish condition, I would say that our N-bacteria have also become more and more accustomed to the harsh conditions. We should export this tough and improved strain to you guys some time in the future :)

      Noura


      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56488 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/28/2015
      Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
      AOL Email
      Hi Noura,
       
      To my knowledge, Methylene Blue doesn't expire.  It's not like an antibiotic with a finite time usefulness.  It's a chemical composition which doesn't break down.  One beneficial property of Methylene Blue is that it reduces the toxicity of ammonia. 
       
      Expired liquid test kits won't give wildly inaccurate results like strip tests can.  If they are inaccurate, they shouldn't be very far off from the true water parameter.  At least they may show something close, which is better than nothing at all in certain situations..
       
      From the description, I'd say that your water condition removes only chlorine.   Water conditioners don't go bad as they too are chemical compounds.  Your water conditioner is most likely Sodium Thiosulfate as this is the most commonly used solution for this purpose.  I'd have to say yours is positively safe if you just recently used it to remove the chlorine in the 2 gallon tank for the Barb, and since the tap water didn't affect the fish after you used the water conditioner this tends to show that chloramine is not being used by your water company. 
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/28/2015 5:02:40 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hi Ray,
      The fish is still alive, not doing better, neither worse. He's a fighter :)

      I did a 40% PWC this morning, replaced the salt and added the second batch of 2 tsp of salt as it's been 18 hours already, I also added the first dose of Erythromycin (50 mg).

      Tomorrow morning I will add the 3rd and last batch of salt (2 tsp).

      It's okay, I don't need to keep any prepared Erythromycin solution. The bottle contains 20 tablets, I'll be only using 2 tablets for 4 freshly made doses.

      And, surprise! I found an old bottle of Methylene Blue as I was looking for the test kit! This stuff doesn't expire in a few years, as far as I know. I've just added the prescribed dose.

      So now the tank includes salt + Erythromycin + Methylene Blue.. + one sick fish!

      I'll do both the pH and Ammonia tests with my "expired" kit, and report back later today.

      I have no idea what type of chlorine is in our water, these information are not available unless one personally knows a worker in the water company. I also don't know what my chlorine remover works on, the bottle only says "Removes chlorine ions", which could mean both or any of the two types.
      It has expired 3 years ago. Do you think it would be safe to use it?

      Thank you :)
      Noura

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56489 From: noura_taweel Date: 1/30/2015
      Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
      Hi,

      We have some improvement!
      After 2 days of treatment with Erythromycin, Methylene Blue, and salt, the Barb is "sitting" straight. He's not lying on his time anymore. And his breathing rate is a bit lower, still more than normal though.
      Previously, he was either lying on his side, or doing the circular fast movements. Now he's never on his side, and he's doing these movements much less frequently. I think that at least he will be able of seeing his food now.
      He never swims, always on the bottom picking at the bare glass. The bloody vein in his head is smaller, and I think that the red strikes on his fins are either fewer or completely gone, can't tell w\in the cloudy blue water (due to the medications).

      Parameters (According to the expired test kit):
      pH 8
      Ammonia 2.0 ppm - poor guy :(
      Nitrite 0
      Nitrate 20 ppm

      I was horrified at the ammonia reading so I did a 50% PWC just 12 hours after the last one, and replaced medications.

      Please advise what to do now.

      P.S: There were no missiles during the past 48 hours :)

      Thank you!
      Noura
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56490 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/30/2015
      Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
      AOL Email
      Hi Noura,
       
      It's good to see there haven't been any more missiles up until now.  Here's hoping there won't be any more.
       
      Nice to know the Barb is improving.  Last time you did a PWC was 2 days ago, at 40%.  While we don't know how accurate these test kits are, that's all we have to go on.  I wouldn't have thought the ammonia would build up so fast, but then it is a small tank.  So, this time you did a water change (at 50%), that would have had to be very early yesterday.  If it's building up as fast as it seems to appear, you should do another PWC today -- but first take an ammonia test.  If it reads at 2.0 ppm again, do a 90% PWC this time.  Retest it after this PWC, before adding any of the treatment substances.  With this much of a water change, you'd probably need to add new medicine every time after the PWC, if the ammonia readings continue to be this high.  A 90% PWC would require adding 5.4 teaspoons of salt back.  Don't get too concerned over this amount; 5 1/4 teaspoons is close enough.   
       
      With a Ph of 8.0 -- if that's accurate (and it could be very close) --  ammonia will be more toxic than at a lower pH, but the salt and dye medication should help.  Still, what you'll need to do is test for the ammonia every day -- or even after another 12 hours for the time being -- and make enough of a PWC to bring the ammonia down to no more than 0.25 ppm.  So,  as I said, if the ammonia level is up at 2.0, the tank will need a 90% PWC which will bring the ammonia level down to 0.20 PPM.  If the ammonia level is at 1.5 ppm, the tank needs an 85% PWC, which will bring the ammonia level down to 0.225 ppm.  And if the ammonia level is at 1.0 ppm, the tank needs at least a 75% PWC, with an 80% PWC being even better, which will being it down to between 0.25 and 0.20, depending on how large the PWC is.  Naturally, instead of looking for minimum amounts of the percentages of PWC amounts, if the ammonia continues to bounce back up, you could just do 90% PWC's each time but these other smaller amount will get you through safely since the temperature is only at 22 o.  The temperature also adds to the toxicity of the ammonia, so keeping it down near 22 o will reduce the toxicity of the ammonia.    
          
      You could try feeding him, but I really don't think he'd be interested in food right now.  Feed him very sparingly to see if he'll even eat.  If he does you could give him just a tiny bit more.  We need to see what the ammonia level keeps bouncing back up to, after 12 hours and after 24 hours if it's still safe at 12 hours.  From that point, we can then accurately figure how large of PWC's will be needed, and how often they need to be made.  Don't hesitate to ask any more question if you need to.
       
      Ray
       
      In a message dated 1/30/2015 12:10:28 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hi,

      We have some improvement!
      After 2 days of treatment with Erythromycin, Methylene Blue, and salt, the Barb is "sitting" straight. He's not lying on his time anymore. And his breathing rate is a bit lower, still more than normal though.
      Previously, he was either lying on his side, or doing the circular fast movements. Now he's never on his side, and he's doing these movements much less frequently. I think that at least he will be able of seeing his food now.
      He never swims, always on the bottom picking at the bare glass. The bloody vein in his head is smaller, and I think that the red strikes on his fins are either fewer or completely gone, can't tell w\in the cloudy blue water (due to the medications).

      Parameters (According to the expired test kit):
      pH 8
      Ammonia 2.0 ppm - poor guy :(
      Nitrite 0
      Nitrate 20 ppm

      I was horrified at the ammonia reading so I did a 50% PWC just 12 hours after the last one, and replaced medications.

      Please advise what to do now.

      P.S: There were no missiles during the past 48 hours :)

      Thank you!
      Noura

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56491 From: noura_taweel Date: 1/30/2015
      Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
      Hi Ray,
      Okay I will test for Ammonia and change some water now. Is water heated in a stainless steel pot safe?
      Our water has always been at pH=8 or even a bit higher. So the reading is correct.

      I've just got home bringing the Barb's old filter from my mom's tank. She will take the Goldfish back to the petstore in a day or two. I thought that an established filter should help reducing the ammonia.

      But I have two concerns:
      1. Will the Erythromycin or salt kill the N-bacteria inside the filter?
      2. The filter is too powerful for this small tank. I turned it on for just 2 minutes, and it's been 10 minutes since I turned it off, yet the Barb is still lying upside down in the corner. Maybe the strong currents exhausted him.

      I'm thinking that maybe I should do something with the filter to reduce the currents.
      Or perhaps I could take the sponge out (it's a tall cylindrical sponge with a tunnel in the center ) and insert an air tube inside it? I have a noisy air pump that I could use for this.

      A million thanks!
      Noura
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56492 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/30/2015
      Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
      AOL Email
      Hi Noura,
       
      Sorry for approving your latest message so much later (6 hours) than after you sent it.  I just didn't know when to expect it and hope it's not inconvenient for this late reply.  Getting right to your #1 concern though, while the Erythromycin shouldn't adversely affect your nitrifying bacteria, I'm afraid the Methylene Blue will.  While many antibiotics are Broad-Spectrum, most of them primarily address either gram-positive or gram-negative bacterial issues.  Erythromycin treats primarily for gram-positive pathogens, while nitrifying bacteria are gram-negative organisms, so they're not as affected by this medication.  It's your choice if you want to discontinue the dye medication, and I fully understand your reasoning for getting the Barb's old filter for keeping the 2 gallon tank cycled, but this Methylene Blue's purpose has not expired in this treatment.  Besides, I have to wonder -- IF this is a disease rather than just an ammonia-caused condition -- you'd be carrying the pathogens with the filter.  I don't know whether it's a good idea to attach it to this tank even if no dye medication were being used.  That the fish appears to be a bit better could be the result of the Erythromycin, which would indicate the suspected disease may be real. 
       
      I sympathize with you for needing to make all these PWC's, but just as you're suggesting in your #2 concern, with this fish's demeanor now appearing to have gone backwards, as lying upside down again, it is quite possible that it's being overwhelmed by this filter's current.  I don't know if any modification would make it much easier for this weakened fish to stabilize itself in this small tank with any substantial current.  As the dye will most probably eradicate the beneficial bacteria, I don't see it as being useful even if you use the sponge with an air tube inserted inside it.  I know this is not what you hoped to hear, as frequent PWC's can get "old" fast, but this is the only way I know of to keep the ammonia down while still using the Methylene Blue.  I'm fairly sure you don't have ammonia-removing resin filter media available by you, but if you do, than this would help in keeping the ammonia down via the ion-exchange method.  You may want to check into this product's availability if you think you could buy it; it would save you some work.
       
      Ray
       
          
       
      In a message dated 1/30/2015 10:03:41 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hi Ray,
      Okay I will test for Ammonia and change some water now. Is water heated in a stainless steel pot safe?
      Our water has always been at pH=8 or even a bit higher. So the reading is correct.

      I've just got home bringing the Barb's old filter from my mom's tank. She will take the Goldfish back to the petstore in a day or two. I thought that an established filter should help reducing the ammonia.

      But I have two concerns:
      1. Will the Erythromycin or salt kill the N-bacteria inside the filter?
      2. The filter is too powerful for this small tank. I turned it on for just 2 minutes, and it's been 10 minutes since I turned it off, yet the Barb is still lying upside down in the corner. Maybe the strong currents exhausted him.

      I'm thinking that maybe I should do something with the filter to reduce the currents.
      Or perhaps I could take the sponge out (it's a tall cylindrical sponge with a tunnel in the center ) and insert an air tube inside it? I have a noisy air pump that I could use for this.

      A million thanks!
      Noura

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56493 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/30/2015
      Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
      AOL Email
      Noura,
       
      Getting to the stainless steel pot, which I missed answering the first time, yes water heated in this is just as safe for fish as heating in a Pyrex glass or enameled pot.
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/30/2015 10:03:41 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hi Ray,
      Okay I will test for Ammonia and change some water now. Is water heated in a stainless steel pot safe?
      Our water has always been at pH=8 or even a bit higher. So the reading is correct.

      I've just got home bringing the Barb's old filter from my mom's tank. She will take the Goldfish back to the petstore in a day or two. I thought that an established filter should help reducing the ammonia.

      But I have two concerns:
      1. Will the Erythromycin or salt kill the N-bacteria inside the filter?
      2. The filter is too powerful for this small tank. I turned it on for just 2 minutes, and it's been 10 minutes since I turned it off, yet the Barb is still lying upside down in the corner. Maybe the strong currents exhausted him.

      I'm thinking that maybe I should do something with the filter to reduce the currents.
      Or perhaps I could take the sponge out (it's a tall cylindrical sponge with a tunnel in the center ) and insert an air tube inside it? I have a noisy air pump that I could use for this.

      A million thanks!
      Noura

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56494 From: noura_taweel Date: 1/31/2015
      Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
      Good morning Ray,

      It's okay to be late in approving my messages. It's you who will probably reply anyway, so you're not delaying any other assistance from reaching me :)

      I will remove the filter now, and hope that no harm has been done by introducing any pathogens :(
      I should have thought of that risk, especially that seeing the Barb improving despite of the 2 ppm reading of ammonia convinced me that what he had was probably an infectious illness, not an ammonia poisoning, just as you concluded. Now he has to fight both.

      Yesterday's late night reading appeared to be slightly higher than 1.0 ppm. Since it was 2.0 ppm 12 hours before that right before I did a 50% PWC, then it seems that Ammonia is not building up too fast.

      The Barb was still unwell this morning, 10 hours after that 2 minutes of filter running, lying on his side all night apparently (I think that I'm 7 hours ahead of you). I did the 90% PWC as soon as I woke up this morning, even before testing, he seems much better now.

      Regarding the temperature, I need to keep it at 24 C, no less. because with the 3 hours power outages, I noticed an average drop of 2 degrees in temperature.

      I performed an ammonia testing while typing this, about 4 hours after the 90% PWC, it's 0.50 ppm

      I will re-read your detailed instructions regarding testing and water changes, take notes, and follow them!
      I'm adding back all 3 treatments after each PWC.

      Thank you Ray!

      Noura
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56495 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/31/2015
      Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
      AOL Email
      Good morning Noura,
       
      No harm should have been done with placing that filter on the 2 gallon tank, but then no benefit would have come with using it either.  With possible pathogens in it though, it would not be the best choice to use it, even though the combination of medications should have killed off any introduced pathogens and the nitrobacters residing in it.  So, no harm done but I just didn't think it was a good idea.
       
      I see the ammonia appeared to not be building up quite as fast as was first concerned with, but after reading of your latest 90% PWC on a 1.0 ppm ammonia level resulting in .50 ppm after 4 hours, the rate of ammonia increase appears faster than what was first indicated.  As we get a better picture on this, much of what needs to be done by PWC's should be able to be figured mathematically, but that complete picture is yet to be seen.  Example on the math however, a 50% PWC on a tank having a 2.0 ppm level ammonia will cut this level in half -- to 1.0 ppm (as of late last night).  Since that 2.0 ppm reading appears where it has remained for that previous past 12 hours, it should be very easy to keep under control with moderate PWC's, except for the unforeseen factors.  Another 50% PWC on a tank having a level of 1.0 ppm could be expected to cut this in half, to 0.50 ppm; still too high to prevent stress on the Barb from excess ammonia.  You need to keep the ammonia level down below 0.25 ppm, and now with the temperature being maintained at 24 o C (that's 76 o F for others reading this), the ammonia level should preferably be below 0.20; ideally, it should be at zero, so don't be afraid to change too much.   
       
      So, now this morning, with the 90% PWC (on a 1.0 ppm ammonia level), this should reduce the ammonia to 0.10 ppm.  Since it appears that the ammonia level is now instead up to 0.50 ppm after only 4 hours, it appears that the ammonia is increasing at a faster rate that previously figured.  If you can keep the ammonia level down to the 1.0 ppm that a 90% PWC should have reduced the ammonia to, then the fish only needs to contend with fighting off the disease and its stress but not both stressors.  Besides doing ammonia tests before doing PWC's, you should also do a test right after making the PWC's to see the results of the change if it becomes difficult to figure mathematically.  Besides which, as I said, there seems to be unforeseen factors entering into this equation -- the possibility that the test kit is not giving accurate results just being one of these factors.  
       
      For now, it looks like testing every 12 hours would be the best way of keeping on top of the ammonia level, and doing a PWC at those times in an amount needed to keep the ammonia down as low as possible.  If this requires 90% PWC every 12 hours, then at least you know what's needed to keep the water as free of ammonia as needed for this fish's health.  Right now, the ammonia results are erratic, when I see that a 50% PWC on a 2.0 ppm results 1.0 ppm -- half of the original ammonia amount, but another PWC (of 90%) on a 1.0 ppm ammonia level still results in half (0.50 ppm) of the original ammonia amount -- and after only 4 hours.  There seems to be no pattern developing in the rate of ammonia production.  I hope you're understanding what I mean, and can see this for yourself.  
       
      If the ammonia level is 0.50 ppm right now, do another PWC immediately.  Mathematically, a minimum PWC in this case of 60% should reduce this ammonia level to 0.20 ppm, but as that apparently can't be relied upon to work mathematically until some pattern can emerge, do another 90% PWC and retest for the ammonia.  After 4 hours, retest it again and after 12 hours retest still again.  If at any point you see the ammonia rise above 0.20 (or 0.25 at the most) do another 90% PWC -- and retest it.  If you see any appreciable amount of ammonia increase after only another 4 hours, then you'll know you'll need to retest for ammonia after no more than this amount of time and to make PWC's each of those times, as necessary.  Hope this works out for you.  Keep reporting back and maybe some pattern will be seen to better judge the amount of PWC's going forward.  
       
      Ray
      .
       
       
       
      In a message dated 1/31/2015 6:59:39 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Good morning Ray,

      It's okay to be late in approving my messages. It's you who will probably reply anyway, so you're not delaying any other assistance from reaching me :)

      I will remove the filter now, and hope that no harm has been done by introducing any pathogens :(
      I should have thought of that risk, especially that seeing the Barb improving despite of the 2 ppm reading of ammonia convinced me that what he had was probably an infectious illness, not an ammonia poisoning, just as you concluded. Now he has to fight both.

      Yesterday's late night reading appeared to be slightly higher than 1.0 ppm. Since it was 2.0 ppm 12 hours before that right before I did a 50% PWC, then it seems that Ammonia is not building up too fast.

      The Barb was still unwell this morning, 10 hours after that 2 minutes of filter running, lying on his side all night apparently (I think that I'm 7 hours ahead of you). I did the 90% PWC as soon as I woke up this morning, even before testing, he seems much better now.

      Regarding the temperature, I need to keep it at 24 C, no less. because with the 3 hours power outages, I noticed an average drop of 2 degrees in temperature.

      I performed an ammonia testing while typing this, about 4 hours after the 90% PWC, it's 0.50 ppm

      I will re-read your detailed instructions regarding testing and water changes, take notes, and follow them!
      I'm adding back all 3 treatments after each PWC.

      Thank you Ray!

      Noura

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56496 From: Harry Leverett Date: 1/31/2015
      Subject: disinfectant solution
      Morning Ray,

      I read in one a past email that you keep a bleach solution on hand at all times to disinfect nets , hoses , etc. I plan on doing the same thing.

      I have a new 20 gal plastic garbage can I plan on using for this.
      Do you change the solution every time or add bleach to keep the solution at the strength you want as the chlorine dissipates ?

      Thanks Harry
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56497 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/31/2015
      Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
      AOL Email
      Noura,
       
      After re-reading my latest reply at least 6 or 8 times to make sure there were no errors before I sent it, I now see a glaring error after seeing it being posted.  Wouldn't you know these errors are nearly impossible to catch beforehand, but they always pop up after the fact.  Anyway, to make better sense of it, the third paragraph, fourth line, should have read -- If you can keep the ammonia level down to the 0.10 ppm (NOT 1.0 ppm ) that a 90% PWC should have reduced the ammonia to, . . .
       
      Apologies for not catching every typo gremlin, but that's why they're called gremlins; they can be very elusive < g >.
       
      Ray 
       
      In a message dated 1/31/2015 8:16:41 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Good morning Noura,
       
      No harm should have been done with placing that filter on the 2 gallon tank, but then no benefit would have come with using it either.  With possible pathogens in it though, it would not be the best choice to use it, even though the combination of medications should have killed off any introduced pathogens and the nitrobacters residing in it.  So, no harm done but I just didn't think it was a good idea.
       
      I see the ammonia appeared to not be building up quite as fast as was first concerned with, but after reading of your latest 90% PWC on a 1.0 ppm ammonia level resulting in .50 ppm after 4 hours, the rate of ammonia increase appears faster than what was first indicated.  As we get a better picture on this, much of what needs to be done by PWC's should be able to be figured mathematically, but that complete picture is yet to be seen.  Example on the math however, a 50% PWC on a tank having a 2.0 ppm level ammonia will cut this level in half -- to 1.0 ppm (as of late last night).  Since that 2.0 ppm reading appears where it has remained for that previous past 12 hours, it should be very easy to keep under control with moderate PWC's, except for the unforeseen factors.  Another 50% PWC on a tank having a level of 1.0 ppm could be expected to cut this in half, to 0.50 ppm; still too high to prevent stress on the Barb from excess ammonia.  You need to keep the ammonia level down below 0.25 ppm, and now with the temperature being maintained at 24 o C (that's 76 o F for others reading this), the ammonia level should preferably be below 0.20; ideally, it should be at zero, so don't be afraid to change too much.   
       
      So, now this morning, with the 90% PWC (on a 1.0 ppm ammonia level), this should reduce the ammonia to 0.10 ppm.  Since it appears that the ammonia level is now instead up to 0.50 ppm after only 4 hours, it appears that the ammonia is increasing at a faster rate that previously figured.  If you can keep the ammonia level down to the 1.0 ppm that a 90% PWC should have reduced the ammonia to, then the fish only needs to contend with fighting off the disease and its stress but not both stressors.  Besides doing ammonia tests before doing PWC's, you should also do a test right after making the PWC's to see the results of the change if it becomes difficult to figure mathematically.  Besides which, as I said, there seems to be unforeseen factors entering into this equation -- the possibility that the test kit is not giving accurate results just being one of these factors.  
       
      For now, it looks like testing every 12 hours would be the best way of keeping on top of the ammonia level, and doing a PWC at those times in an amount needed to keep the ammonia down as low as possible.  If this requires 90% PWC every 12 hours, then at least you know what's needed to keep the water as free of ammonia as needed for this fish's health.  Right now, the ammonia results are erratic, when I see that a 50% PWC on a 2.0 ppm results 1.0 ppm -- half of the original ammonia amount, but another PWC (of 90%) on a 1.0 ppm ammonia level still results in half (0.50 ppm) of the original ammonia amount -- and after only 4 hours.  There seems to be no pattern developing in the rate of ammonia production.  I hope you're understanding what I mean, and can see this for yourself.  
       
      If the ammonia level is 0.50 ppm right now, do another PWC immediately.  Mathematically, a minimum PWC in this case of 60% should reduce this ammonia level to 0.20 ppm, but as that apparently can't be relied upon to work mathematically until some pattern can emerge, do another 90% PWC and retest for the ammonia.  After 4 hours, retest it again and after 12 hours retest still again.  If at any point you see the ammonia rise above 0.20 (or 0.25 at the most) do another 90% PWC -- and retest it.  If you see any appreciable amount of ammonia increase after only another 4 hours, then you'll know you'll need to retest for ammonia after no more than this amount of time and to make PWC's each of those times, as necessary.  Hope this works out for you.  Keep reporting back and maybe some pattern will be seen to better judge the amount of PWC's going forward.  
       
      Ray
      .
       
       
       
      In a message dated 1/31/2015 6:59:39 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Good morning Ray,

      It's okay to be late in approving my messages. It's you who will probably reply anyway, so you're not delaying any other assistance from reaching me :)

      I will remove the filter now, and hope that no harm has been done by introducing any pathogens :(
      I should have thought of that risk, especially that seeing the Barb improving despite of the 2 ppm reading of ammonia convinced me that what he had was probably an infectious illness, not an ammonia poisoning, just as you concluded. Now he has to fight both.

      Yesterday's late night reading appeared to be slightly higher than 1.0 ppm. Since it was 2.0 ppm 12 hours before that right before I did a 50% PWC, then it seems that Ammonia is not building up too fast.

      The Barb was still unwell this morning, 10 hours after that 2 minutes of filter running, lying on his side all night apparently (I think that I'm 7 hours ahead of you). I did the 90% PWC as soon as I woke up this morning, even before testing, he seems much better now.

      Regarding the temperature, I need to keep it at 24 C, no less. because with the 3 hours power outages, I noticed an average drop of 2 degrees in temperature.

      I performed an ammonia testing while typing this, about 4 hours after the 90% PWC, it's 0.50 ppm

      I will re-read your detailed instructions regarding testing and water changes, take notes, and follow them!
      I'm adding back all 3 treatments after each PWC.

      Thank you Ray!

      Noura

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56498 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/31/2015
      Subject: Re: disinfectant solution
      AOL Email
      Good Morning Harry,
       
      Normally, I just add more bleach to it as I see the level of it decrease with chlorine testing (using a swimming pool chlorine test kit).  As the water tends to build up dissolved dirt & debris, I'll then do a complete change of the water and add back fresh bleach.  That could be once a month or every six weeks, depending on how fast the water looks dirty.  I keep the bleach amount at a level at least as high as the test kit will read and probably much higher than is needed to be kept in a swimming pool.  If only a level needed for a swimming pool should eliminate all pathogens that humans may contract, then a level at least 5 times higher than this should kill off most any fish pathogens as I see it.  The only fish pathogen that I'm aware of that won't be killed by chlorine is Mycobacterium (Fish Tuberculosis) -- which is not the same as human Tuberculosis, although it can cause an infection in an open cut in people having there hand in a tank infected with it.  Mycobacterium needs to first be subjected to alcohol or acetone to dissolve its protective wax coating, for chlorine bleach to be effective in eliminating it.
       
      Could be other fish disease not being immediately affected by chlorine bleach, but if so, I'm not aware of any others.  It's easy for me to change the bleach water as all I need to do is to pull the plug to drain it.  You could probably use a Python for draining out the garbage can when the time comes, which should only take a few minutes.  Might want to place a heavy stone (or brick) in the bottom of the garbage can, to eliminate its tipping over by the weight of the Pyrthon on one side when the water level gets down to the bottom; could be a mess of a couple of gallons to mop up off the floor if you don't   I did warn you about nets though -- don't leave them in for an excessive amount of time and don't use the bleach solution container as a permanent storage/sterilization place for them.  They won't last very long if you do.  I remember in the fish stores years ago, they used to keep a small tank with a Methylene Blue solution for a permanent place to keep the nets between use.  I don't know how effective that was on all possible pathogens but it had to be useful for many.  I'm not sure what fish stores do today as I rarely buy any from the shops; they just don't stock the specialty species I maintain, that I can't get directly from the breeders at the various clubs' fish auctions if needed. 
       
      Ray
            
       
      In a message dated 1/31/2015 8:31:12 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Morning Ray,

      I read in one a past email that you keep a bleach solution on hand at all times to disinfect nets , hoses , etc. I plan on doing the same thing.

      I have a new 20 gal plastic garbage can I plan on using for this.
      Do you change the solution every time or add bleach to keep the solution at the strength you want as the chlorine dissipates ?

      Thanks Harry

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56499 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 1/31/2015
      Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
      Hi Ray,

        That is so true about the typos, I always read my replies through before hitting the send button & invariably the typo gets missed by me until it appears on the forum!! Just a fact of life I suppose but also why written works have proof reading before they are published. BTW I spotted the error 1.0 instead of 0.10 before I read your reply correcting it & I'm sure Noura did too.

      Noura-if you are no longer using the filter then it can be returned to the Goldfish tank if you are going to your Mom's house, so glad to hear the Barb is picking up again after the filter scare-you are doing great with limited resources. Also very pleased to know there have been no more hostilities in your area.

        John<o)))<



      On 31 January 2015 at 13:37, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      Noura,
       
      After re-reading my latest reply at least 6 or 8 times to make sure there were no errors before I sent it, I now see a glaring error after seeing it being posted.  Wouldn't you know these errors are nearly impossible to catch beforehand, but they always pop up after the fact.  Anyway, to make better sense of it, the third paragraph, fourth line, should have read -- If you can keep the ammonia level down to the 0.10 ppm (NOT 1.0 ppm ) that a 90% PWC should have reduced the ammonia to, . . .
       
      Apologies for not catching every typo gremlin, but that's why they're called gremlins; they can be very elusive < g >.
       
      Ray 
       
      In a message dated 1/31/2015 8:16:41 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Good morning Noura,
       
      No harm should have been done with placing that filter on the 2 gallon tank, but then no benefit would have come with using it either.  With possible pathogens in it though, it would not be the best choice to use it, even though the combination of medications should have killed off any introduced pathogens and the nitrobacters residing in it.  So, no harm done but I just didn't think it was a good idea.
       
      I see the ammonia appeared to not be building up quite as fast as was first concerned with, but after reading of your latest 90% PWC on a 1.0 ppm ammonia level resulting in .50 ppm after 4 hours, the rate of ammonia increase appears faster than what was first indicated.  As we get a better picture on this, much of what needs to be done by PWC's should be able to be figured mathematically, but that complete picture is yet to be seen.  Example on the math however, a 50% PWC on a tank having a 2.0 ppm level ammonia will cut this level in half -- to 1.0 ppm (as of late last night).  Since that 2.0 ppm reading appears where it has remained for that previous past 12 hours, it should be very easy to keep under control with moderate PWC's, except for the unforeseen factors.  Another 50% PWC on a tank having a level of 1.0 ppm could be expected to cut this in half, to 0.50 ppm; still too high to prevent stress on the Barb from excess ammonia.  You need to keep the ammonia level down below 0.25 ppm, and now with the temperature being maintained at 24 o C (that's 76 o F for others reading this), the ammonia level should preferably be below 0.20; ideally, it should be at zero, so don't be afraid to change too much.   
       
      So, now this morning, with the 90% PWC (on a 1.0 ppm ammonia level), this should reduce the ammonia to 0.10 ppm.  Since it appears that the ammonia level is now instead up to 0.50 ppm after only 4 hours, it appears that the ammonia is increasing at a faster rate that previously figured.  If you can keep the ammonia level down to the 1.0 ppm that a 90% PWC should have reduced the ammonia to, then the fish only needs to contend with fighting off the disease and its stress but not both stressors.  Besides doing ammonia tests before doing PWC's, you should also do a test right after making the PWC's to see the results of the change if it becomes difficult to figure mathematically.  Besides which, as I said, there seems to be unforeseen factors entering into this equation -- the possibility that the test kit is not giving accurate results just being one of these factors.  
       
      For now, it looks like testing every 12 hours would be the best way of keeping on top of the ammonia level, and doing a PWC at those times in an amount needed to keep the ammonia down as low as possible.  If this requires 90% PWC every 12 hours, then at least you know what's needed to keep the water as free of ammonia as needed for this fish's health.  Right now, the ammonia results are erratic, when I see that a 50% PWC on a 2.0 ppm results 1.0 ppm -- half of the original ammonia amount, but another PWC (of 90%) on a 1.0 ppm ammonia level still results in half (0.50 ppm) of the original ammonia amount -- and after only 4 hours.  There seems to be no pattern developing in the rate of ammonia production.  I hope you're understanding what I mean, and can see this for yourself.  
       
      If the ammonia level is 0.50 ppm right now, do another PWC immediately.  Mathematically, a minimum PWC in this case of 60% should reduce this ammonia level to 0.20 ppm, but as that apparently can't be relied upon to work mathematically until some pattern can emerge, do another 90% PWC and retest for the ammonia.  After 4 hours, retest it again and after 12 hours retest still again.  If at any point you see the ammonia rise above 0.20 (or 0.25 at the most) do another 90% PWC -- and retest it.  If you see any appreciable amount of ammonia increase after only another 4 hours, then you'll know you'll need to retest for ammonia after no more than this amount of time and to make PWC's each of those times, as necessary.  Hope this works out for you.  Keep reporting back and maybe some pattern will be seen to better judge the amount of PWC's going forward.  
       
      Ray
      .
       
       
       
      In a message dated 1/31/2015 6:59:39 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Good morning Ray,

      It's okay to be late in approving my messages. It's you who will probably reply anyway, so you're not delaying any other assistance from reaching me :)

      I will remove the filter now, and hope that no harm has been done by introducing any pathogens :(
      I should have thought of that risk, especially that seeing the Barb improving despite of the 2 ppm reading of ammonia convinced me that what he had was probably an infectious illness, not an ammonia poisoning, just as you concluded. Now he has to fight both.

      Yesterday's late night reading appeared to be slightly higher than 1.0 ppm. Since it was 2.0 ppm 12 hours before that right before I did a 50% PWC, then it seems that Ammonia is not building up too fast.

      The Barb was still unwell this morning, 10 hours after that 2 minutes of filter running, lying on his side all night apparently (I think that I'm 7 hours ahead of you). I did the 90% PWC as soon as I woke up this morning, even before testing, he seems much better now.

      Regarding the temperature, I need to keep it at 24 C, no less. because with the 3 hours power outages, I noticed an average drop of 2 degrees in temperature.

      I performed an ammonia testing while typing this, about 4 hours after the 90% PWC, it's 0.50 ppm

      I will re-read your detailed instructions regarding testing and water changes, take notes, and follow them!
      I'm adding back all 3 treatments after each PWC.

      Thank you Ray!

      Noura


      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56500 From: Harry Leverett Date: 1/31/2015
      Subject: Re: disinfectant solution
      Right. Just been giving the net a short soak and good rinse and hang dry. The python has had a good soaking. Will circulate bleach through it again. Going to strip all the hoses and hardware out of the 55 and soak them seperatly to get the outside clean, circulated the bleach through them for 24 hours so insides should be good.
      Fill the tank one more time with bleach and clean the top rim good and where the suction cups were.

      Harry
      Harry

      Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID


      "sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Good Morning Harry,
       
      Normally, I just add more bleach to it as I see the level of it decrease with chlorine testing (using a swimming pool chlorine test kit).  As the water tends to build up dissolved dirt & debris, I'll then do a complete change of the water and add back fresh bleach.  That could be once a month or every six weeks, depending on how fast the water looks dirty.  I keep the bleach amount at a level at least as high as the test kit will read and probably much higher than is needed to be kept in a swimming pool.  If only a level needed for a swimming pool should eliminate all pathogens that humans may contract, then a level at least 5 times higher than this should kill off most any fish pathogens as I see it.  The only fish pathogen that I'm aware of that won't be killed by chlorine is Mycobacterium (Fish Tuberculosis) -- which is not the same as human Tuberculosis, although it can cause an infection in an open cut in people having there hand in a tank infected with it.  Mycobacterium needs to first be subjected to alcohol or acetone to dissolve its protective wax coating, for chlorine bleach to be effective in eliminating it.
       
      Could be other fish disease not being immediately affected by chlorine bleach, but if so, I'm not aware of any others.  It's easy for me to change the bleach water as all I need to do is to pull the plug to drain it.  You could probably use a Python for draining out the garbage can when the time comes, which should only take a few minutes.  Might want to place a heavy stone (or brick) in the bottom of the garbage can, to eliminate its tipping over by the weight of the Pyrthon on one side when the water level gets down to the bottom; could be a mess of a couple of gallons to mop up off the floor if you don't   I did warn you about nets though -- don't leave them in for an excessive amount of time and don't use the bleach solution container as a permanent storage/sterilization place for them.  They won't last very long if you do.  I remember in the fish stores years ago, they used to keep a small tank with a Methylene Blue solution for a permanent place to keep the nets between use.  I don't know how effective that was on all possible pathogens but it had to be useful for many.  I'm not sure what fish stores do today as I rarely buy any from the shops; they just don't stock the specialty species I maintain, that I can't get directly from the breeders at the various clubs' fish auctions if needed. 
       
      Ray
            
       
      In a message dated 1/31/2015 8:31:12 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Morning Ray,

      I read in one a past email that you keep a bleach solution on hand at all times to disinfect nets , hoses , etc. I plan on doing the same thing.

      I have a new 20 gal plastic garbage can I plan on using for this.
      Do you change the solution every time or add bleach to keep the solution at the strength you want as the chlorine dissipates ?

      Thanks Harry

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56501 From: noura_taweel Date: 1/31/2015
      Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
      Thank you, Ray and John :)
      Ray I can simply solve the mystery. When I tested the water yesterday night 11 p.m it was 1.0 ppm, while the following PWC was this morning around 11 a.m too, so there are 12 hours during which the ammonia level could have risen well above 1.0 ppm before this morning's 90% PWC. Which explains how unwell the Barb (My daughter named him Silver) was this morning, and how he got better in just a few hours after the PWC.

      I should have tested this morning before the PWC, but I wanted to change that water quickly before I get soaked in the zillion other tasks awaiting me :)

      I totally understand the math you were explaining. It's 10 p.m here now, so it's time to test, change water, and retest again. I will post the results as soon as I can.

      "Silver" still does those crazy fast movements occasionally, but much more sparingly than 3 days ago. And he's constantly on the bottom but  in the correct posture. It doesn't look like he can get himself up unless he's doing the fast circular movements.
      The red strike on his forehead is MUCH smaller, and I don't see any bloody strikes in his fins. His breathing rate has finally started to be lower today. He sometimes breaths at a normal rate, not always though.

      Will be back withing an hour to report results!

      (P.S: Excuse me for any typos, I'm typing really quickly because I have a linguistic proofreading job I need to do ;-). No seriously, I do! lol)

      Thanks a million!
      Noura



      ---In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, <simmonds.john@...> wrote :

      Hi Ray,

        That is so true about the typos, I always read my replies through before hitting the send button & invariably the typo gets missed by me until it appears on the forum!! Just a fact of life I suppose but also why written works have proof reading before they are published. BTW I spotted the error 1.0 instead of 0.10 before I read your reply correcting it & I'm sure Noura did too.

      Noura-if you are no longer using the filter then it can be returned to the Goldfish tank if you are going to your Mom's house, so glad to hear the Barb is picking up again after the filter scare-you are doing great with limited resources. Also very pleased to know there have been no more hostilities in your area.

        John<o)))<



      On 31 January 2015 at 13:37, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      Noura,
       
      After re-reading my latest reply at least 6 or 8 times to make sure there were no errors before I sent it, I now see a glaring error after seeing it being posted.  Wouldn't you know these errors are nearly impossible to catch beforehand, but they always pop up after the fact.  Anyway, to make better sense of it, the third paragraph, fourth line, should have read -- If you can keep the ammonia level down to the 0.10 ppm (NOT 1.0 ppm ) that a 90% PWC should have reduced the ammonia to, . . .
       
      Apologies for not catching every typo gremlin, but that's why they're called gremlins; they can be very elusive < g >.
       
      Ray 
       
      In a message dated 1/31/2015 8:16:41 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Good morning Noura,
       
      No harm should have been done with placing that filter on the 2 gallon tank, but then no benefit would have come with using it either.  With possible pathogens in it though, it would not be the best choice to use it, even though the combination of medications should have killed off any introduced pathogens and the nitrobacters residing in it.  So, no harm done but I just didn't think it was a good idea.
       
      I see the ammonia appeared to not be building up quite as fast as was first concerned with, but after reading of your latest 90% PWC on a 1.0 ppm ammonia level resulting in .50 ppm after 4 hours, the rate of ammonia increase appears faster than what was first indicated.  As we get a better picture on this, much of what needs to be done by PWC's should be able to be figured mathematically, but that complete picture is yet to be seen.  Example on the math however, a 50% PWC on a tank having a 2.0 ppm level ammonia will cut this level in half -- to 1.0 ppm (as of late last night).  Since that 2.0 ppm reading appears where it has remained for that previous past 12 hours, it should be very easy to keep under control with moderate PWC's, except for the unforeseen factors.  Another 50% PWC on a tank having a level of 1.0 ppm could be expected to cut this in half, to 0.50 ppm; still too high to prevent stress on the Barb from excess ammonia.  You need to keep the ammonia level down below 0.25 ppm, and now with the temperature being maintained at 24 o C (that's 76 o F for others reading this), the ammonia level should preferably be below 0.20; ideally, it should be at zero, so don't be afraid to change too much.   
       
      So, now this morning, with the 90% PWC (on a 1.0 ppm ammonia level), this should reduce the ammonia to 0.10 ppm.  Since it appears that the ammonia level is now instead up to 0.50 ppm after only 4 hours, it appears that the ammonia is increasing at a faster rate that previously figured.  If you can keep the ammonia level down to the 1.0 ppm that a 90% PWC should have reduced the ammonia to, then the fish only needs to contend with fighting off the disease and its stress but not both stressors.  Besides doing ammonia tests before doing PWC's, you should also do a test right after making the PWC's to see the results of the change if it becomes difficult to figure mathematically.  Besides which, as I said, there seems to be unforeseen factors entering into this equation -- the possibility that the test kit is not giving accurate results just being one of these factors.  
       
      For now, it looks like testing every 12 hours would be the best way of keeping on top of the ammonia level, and doing a PWC at those times in an amount needed to keep the ammonia down as low as possible.  If this requires 90% PWC every 12 hours, then at least you know what's needed to keep the water as free of ammonia as needed for this fish's health.  Right now, the ammonia results are erratic, when I see that a 50% PWC on a 2.0 ppm results 1.0 ppm -- half of the original ammonia amount, but another PWC (of 90%) on a 1.0 ppm ammonia level still results in half (0.50 ppm) of the original ammonia amount -- and after only 4 hours.  There seems to be no pattern developing in the rate of ammonia production.  I hope you're understanding what I mean, and can see this for yourself.  
       
      If the ammonia level is 0.50 ppm right now, do another PWC immediately.  Mathematically, a minimum PWC in this case of 60% should reduce this ammonia level to 0.20 ppm, but as that apparently can't be relied upon to work mathematically until some pattern can emerge, do another 90% PWC and retest for the ammonia.  After 4 hours, retest it again and after 12 hours retest still again.  If at any point you see the ammonia rise above 0.20 (or 0.25 at the most) do another 90% PWC -- and retest it.  If you see any appreciable amount of ammonia increase after only another 4 hours, then you'll know you'll need to retest for ammonia after no more than this amount of time and to make PWC's each of those times, as necessary.  Hope this works out for you.  Keep reporting back and maybe some pattern will be seen to better judge the amount of PWC's going forward.  
       
      Ray
      .
       
       
       
      In a message dated 1/31/2015 6:59:39 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Good morning Ray,

      It's okay to be late in approving my messages. It's you who will probably reply anyway, so you're not delaying any other assistance from reaching me :)

      I will remove the filter now, and hope that no harm has been done by introducing any pathogens :(
      I should have thought of that risk, especially that seeing the Barb improving despite of the 2 ppm reading of ammonia convinced me that what he had was probably an infectious illness, not an ammonia poisoning, just as you concluded. Now he has to fight both.

      Yesterday's late night reading appeared to be slightly higher than 1.0 ppm. Since it was 2.0 ppm 12 hours before that right before I did a 50% PWC, then it seems that Ammonia is not building up too fast.

      The Barb was still unwell this morning, 10 hours after that 2 minutes of filter running, lying on his side all night apparently (I think that I'm 7 hours ahead of you). I did the 90% PWC as soon as I woke up this morning, even before testing, he seems much better now.

      Regarding the temperature, I need to keep it at 24 C, no less. because with the 3 hours power outages, I noticed an average drop of 2 degrees in temperature.

      I performed an ammonia testing while typing this, about 4 hours after the 90% PWC, it's 0.50 ppm

      I will re-read your detailed instructions regarding testing and water changes, take notes, and follow them!
      I'm adding back all 3 treatments after each PWC.

      Thank you Ray!

      Noura


      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56502 From: Harry Leverett Date: 1/31/2015
      Subject: Fluval FX
      Afternoon all .

      Now that I have the 55 gal. tank pulled a part the “might as well go ahead and…. “ has set in.
      We will probably go with cichlids , Mbuna or Peacocks not sure yet. I understand the do better with a sand substrate and Ray says to go with play sand instead of pool filter sand which sounds good to me.

      Ive been looking at the Fluval FX 6 filters , anyone have any experience with them ?
      It will be going in the 55 gal and I’m sure it will be over kill but would like to have ample filtration but don’t want the fish to struggle with current , so I guess my question is , can the flow be adjusted down to a good level for fish and still plenty of filtration.

      Thanks
      Harry
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56503 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/31/2015
      Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
      AOL Email
      Hi Noura,
       
      I know you won't be up on line at this time waiting for my reply, as for one thing you'll be making a PWC.  I do feel I need to question your explanation here though, only because I don't quite understand it.  I do understand though, that when you tested the water yesterday night at 11 PM, the ammonia was 1.0 ppm.  I would assume that when you saw it that high that you would have made a large PWC.  If so, for the ammonia to be back up to 1.0 ppm (or more) by this morning at 11 AM, that's extremely fast for the ammonia to increase.  If you didn't do a large PWC yesterday night when you saw the ammonia was up at 1.0 ppm, then I need to ask why as it certainly needed it -- unless you were just too tired to do that.  If that's the case, then perhaps you should make the water tests at 10 PM and 10 AM (or 9 PM and 9 AM) so that you're able to change water if you need to.
       
      The other part I don't understand is that this morning's PWC of 90% resulted in a 0.50 ppm ammonia level.  Mathematically speaking, doing a 90% PWC on a tank and still having 0.50 ppm of ammonia would mean that the ammonia level before making this PWC would have had to be 5.0 ppm.  It's just not making any sense to me and I'd like to see this fish as being as stress-free as possible with the least amount of ammonia possible.  Unless you're having difficulty reading the test results, maybe the kit is just too old to give any results close to what the level really is (?).  I'll check back in an hour to see the results of your latest PWC and ammonia test.  Maybe things will straighten themselves out in the meantime.  BTW, to make it easier to see the test colors, hold the vial up against a piece of white cardboard.    
       
      Sounds like the fish is starting to come around, and I don't need to tell you that too much ammonia in between tests will only hinder him in his recovery.  Your description of him sounds encouraging as it definitely shows improvement.  Keep up the good work.
      '
      Ray  
       
       
      In a message dated 1/31/2015 3:32:28 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Thank you, Ray and John :)
      Ray I can simply solve the mystery. When I tested the water yesterday night 11 p.m it was 1.0 ppm, while the following PWC was this morning around 11 a.m too, so there are 12 hours during which the ammonia level could have risen well above 1.0 ppm before this morning's 90% PWC. Which explains how unwell the Barb (My daughter named him Silver) was this morning, and how he got better in just a few hours after the PWC.

      I should have tested this morning before the PWC, but I wanted to change that water quickly before I get soaked in the zillion other tasks awaiting me :)

      I totally understand the math you were explaining. It's 10 p.m here now, so it's time to test, change water, and retest again. I will post the results as soon as I can.

      "Silver" still does those crazy fast movements occasionally, but much more sparingly than 3 days ago. And he's constantly on the bottom but  in the correct posture. It doesn't look like he can get himself up unless he's doing the fast circular movements.
      The red strike on his forehead is MUCH smaller, and I don't see any bloody strikes in his fins. His breathing rate has finally started to be lower today. He sometimes breaths at a normal rate, not always though.

      Will be back withing an hour to report results!

      (P.S: Excuse me for any typos, I'm typing really quickly because I have a linguistic proofreading job I need to do ;-). No seriously, I do! lol)

      Thanks a million!
      Noura



      ---In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, <simmonds.john@...> wrote :

      Hi Ray,

        That is so true about the typos, I always read my replies through before hitting the send button & invariably the typo gets missed by me until it appears on the forum!! Just a fact of life I suppose but also why written works have proof reading before they are published. BTW I spotted the error 1.0 instead of 0.10 before I read your reply correcting it & I'm sure Noura did too.

      Noura-if you are no longer using the filter then it can be returned to the Goldfish tank if you are going to your Mom's house, so glad to hear the Barb is picking up again after the filter scare-you are doing great with limited resources. Also very pleased to know there have been no more hostilities in your area.

        John<o)))<



      On 31 January 2015 at 13:37, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      Noura,
       
      After re-reading my latest reply at least 6 or 8 times to make sure there were no errors before I sent it, I now see a glaring error after seeing it being posted.  Wouldn't you know these errors are nearly impossible to catch beforehand, but they always pop up after the fact.  Anyway, to make better sense of it, the third paragraph, fourth line, should have read -- If you can keep the ammonia level down to the 0.10 ppm (NOT 1.0 ppm ) that a 90% PWC should have reduced the ammonia to, . . .
       
      Apologies for not catching every typo gremlin, but that's why they're called gremlins; they can be very elusive < g >.
       
      Ray 
       
      In a message dated 1/31/2015 8:16:41 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Good morning Noura,
       
      No harm should have been done with placing that filter on the 2 gallon tank, but then no benefit would have come with using it either.  With possible pathogens in it though, it would not be the best choice to use it, even though the combination of medications should have killed off any introduced pathogens and the nitrobacters residing in it.  So, no harm done but I just didn't think it was a good idea.
       
      I see the ammonia appeared to not be building up quite as fast as was first concerned with, but after reading of your latest 90% PWC on a 1.0 ppm ammonia level resulting in .50 ppm after 4 hours, the rate of ammonia increase appears faster than what was first indicated.  As we get a better picture on this, much of what needs to be done by PWC's should be able to be figured mathematically, but that complete picture is yet to be seen.  Example on the math however, a 50% PWC on a tank having a 2.0 ppm level ammonia will cut this level in half -- to 1.0 ppm (as of late last night).  Since that 2.0 ppm reading appears where it has remained for that previous past 12 hours, it should be very easy to keep under control with moderate PWC's, except for the unforeseen factors.  Another 50% PWC on a tank having a level of 1.0 ppm could be expected to cut this in half, to 0.50 ppm; still too high to prevent stress on the Barb from excess ammonia.  You need to keep the ammonia level down below 0.25 ppm, and now with the temperature being maintained at 24 o C (that's 76 o F for others reading this), the ammonia level should preferably be below 0.20; ideally, it should be at zero, so don't be afraid to change too much.   
       
      So, now this morning, with the 90% PWC (on a 1.0 ppm ammonia level), this should reduce the ammonia to 0.10 ppm.  Since it appears that the ammonia level is now instead up to 0.50 ppm after only 4 hours, it appears that the ammonia is increasing at a faster rate that previously figured.  If you can keep the ammonia level down to the 1.0 ppm that a 90% PWC should have reduced the ammonia to, then the fish only needs to contend with fighting off the disease and its stress but not both stressors.  Besides doing ammonia tests before doing PWC's, you should also do a test right after making the PWC's to see the results of the change if it becomes difficult to figure mathematically.  Besides which, as I said, there seems to be unforeseen factors entering into this equation -- the possibility that the test kit is not giving accurate results just being one of these factors.  
       
      For now, it looks like testing every 12 hours would be the best way of keeping on top of the ammonia level, and doing a PWC at those times in an amount needed to keep the ammonia down as low as possible.  If this requires 90% PWC every 12 hours, then at least you know what's needed to keep the water as free of ammonia as needed for this fish's health.  Right now, the ammonia results are erratic, when I see that a 50% PWC on a 2.0 ppm results 1.0 ppm -- half of the original ammonia amount, but another PWC (of 90%) on a 1.0 ppm ammonia level still results in half (0.50 ppm) of the original ammonia amount -- and after only 4 hours.  There seems to be no pattern developing in the rate of ammonia production.  I hope you're understanding what I mean, and can see this for yourself.  
       
      If the ammonia level is 0.50 ppm right now, do another PWC immediately.  Mathematically, a minimum PWC in this case of 60% should reduce this ammonia level to 0.20 ppm, but as that apparently can't be relied upon to work mathematically until some pattern can emerge, do another 90% PWC and retest for the ammonia.  After 4 hours, retest it again and after 12 hours retest still again.  If at any point you see the ammonia rise above 0.20 (or 0.25 at the most) do another 90% PWC -- and retest it.  If you see any appreciable amount of ammonia increase after only another 4 hours, then you'll know you'll need to retest for ammonia after no more than this amount of time and to make PWC's each of those times, as necessary.  Hope this works out for you.  Keep reporting back and maybe some pattern will be seen to better judge the amount of PWC's going forward.  
       
      Ray
      .
       
       
       
      In a message dated 1/31/2015 6:59:39 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Good morning Ray,

      It's okay to be late in approving my messages. It's you who will probably reply anyway, so you're not delaying any other assistance from reaching me :)

      I will remove the filter now, and hope that no harm has been done by introducing any pathogens :(
      I should have thought of that risk, especially that seeing the Barb improving despite of the 2 ppm reading of ammonia convinced me that what he had was probably an infectious illness, not an ammonia poisoning, just as you concluded. Now he has to fight both.

      Yesterday's late night reading appeared to be slightly higher than 1.0 ppm. Since it was 2.0 ppm 12 hours before that right before I did a 50% PWC, then it seems that Ammonia is not building up too fast.

      The Barb was still unwell this morning, 10 hours after that 2 minutes of filter running, lying on his side all night apparently (I think that I'm 7 hours ahead of you). I did the 90% PWC as soon as I woke up this morning, even before testing, he seems much better now.

      Regarding the temperature, I need to keep it at 24 C, no less. because with the 3 hours power outages, I noticed an average drop of 2 degrees in temperature.

      I performed an ammonia testing while typing this, about 4 hours after the 90% PWC, it's 0.50 ppm

      I will re-read your detailed instructions regarding testing and water changes, take notes, and follow them!
      I'm adding back all 3 treatments after each PWC.

      Thank you Ray!

      Noura


      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56504 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 1/31/2015
      Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
      On a general note about test kits & the colour cards. It has been my experience that test kit results-even from very expensive kits are exceedingly difficult to interpret, some you have to hold right up against the card, others tell you to hold it a finger's breadth away. Then there is the question of the light source, in direct or shaded sunlight it can appear to give different results & with the sun or light source behind you then it is different again. In artificial light or dull daylight you also get varying appearance of colours. Add that to the fact that everyone will see a certain colour slightly different to everyone else & you have a nightmare!

      Although I do like the API kits I find their High Range pH test to be exceedingly difficult to read accurately as it goes from a coffee coloured brown to a slightly purple/brown around 7.8 to 8.2 so I prefer Tetra/Nutrafin pH test as it has some nice clear green shades which I find easier to interpret. Similarly on the API NO3 card for freshwater both 40 & 80 look identical [not that you want either level in your tank but it adds to the confusion]. I generally forget about the NO3 test card & treat the test as yellow=good, orange=ok & red=big water change needed!! Conversely their NO2 is so easy to read-bright blue right through to dark purple look exactly the same on the card as the water sample.

      A long-time fish keeping friend of mine in Canada gave me a good tip about reading these confusing tests, he said that instead of trying to perfectly match the colour in the tube with that on the card to try to match the colour intensity of that sample in the tube with that on the colour chart. For example if you have a result that looks difficult to read then go to the first colour & see if that looks the same intensity as your sample-if it looks lighter [or darker] keep going until you find one that looks darker [or lighter] & then backtrack to the previous one & that will be about right. This has often helped when I have been trying to decide on a result.

        John<o)))<

      On 31 January 2015 at 20:58, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      Hi Noura,
       
      I know you won't be up on line at this time waiting for my reply, as for one thing you'll be making a PWC.  I do feel I need to question your explanation here though, only because I don't quite understand it.  I do understand though, that when you tested the water yesterday night at 11 PM, the ammonia was 1.0 ppm.  I would assume that when you saw it that high that you would have made a large PWC.  If so, for the ammonia to be back up to 1.0 ppm (or more) by this morning at 11 AM, that's extremely fast for the ammonia to increase.  If you didn't do a large PWC yesterday night when you saw the ammonia was up at 1.0 ppm, then I need to ask why as it certainly needed it -- unless you were just too tired to do that.  If that's the case, then perhaps you should make the water tests at 10 PM and 10 AM (or 9 PM and 9 AM) so that you're able to change water if you need to.
       
      The other part I don't understand is that this morning's PWC of 90% resulted in a 0.50 ppm ammonia level.  Mathematically speaking, doing a 90% PWC on a tank and still having 0.50 ppm of ammonia would mean that the ammonia level before making this PWC would have had to be 5.0 ppm.  It's just not making any sense to me and I'd like to see this fish as being as stress-free as possible with the least amount of ammonia possible.  Unless you're having difficulty reading the test results, maybe the kit is just too old to give any results close to what the level really is (?).  I'll check back in an hour to see the results of your latest PWC and ammonia test.  Maybe things will straighten themselves out in the meantime.  BTW, to make it easier to see the test colors, hold the vial up against a piece of white cardboard.    
       
      Sounds like the fish is starting to come around, and I don't need to tell you that too much ammonia in between tests will only hinder him in his recovery.  Your description of him sounds encouraging as it definitely shows improvement.  Keep up the good work.
      '
      Ray  
       
       
      In a message dated 1/31/2015 3:32:28 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Thank you, Ray and John :)
      Ray I can simply solve the mystery. When I tested the water yesterday night 11 p.m it was 1.0 ppm, while the following PWC was this morning around 11 a.m too, so there are 12 hours during which the ammonia level could have risen well above 1.0 ppm before this morning's 90% PWC. Which explains how unwell the Barb (My daughter named him Silver) was this morning, and how he got better in just a few hours after the PWC.

      I should have tested this morning before the PWC, but I wanted to change that water quickly before I get soaked in the zillion other tasks awaiting me :)

      I totally understand the math you were explaining. It's 10 p.m here now, so it's time to test, change water, and retest again. I will post the results as soon as I can.

      "Silver" still does those crazy fast movements occasionally, but much more sparingly than 3 days ago. And he's constantly on the bottom but  in the correct posture. It doesn't look like he can get himself up unless he's doing the fast circular movements.
      The red strike on his forehead is MUCH smaller, and I don't see any bloody strikes in his fins. His breathing rate has finally started to be lower today. He sometimes breaths at a normal rate, not always though.

      Will be back withing an hour to report results!

      (P.S: Excuse me for any typos, I'm typing really quickly because I have a linguistic proofreading job I need to do ;-). No seriously, I do! lol)

      Thanks a million!
      Noura



      ---In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, <simmonds.john@...> wrote :

      Hi Ray,

        That is so true about the typos, I always read my replies through before hitting the send button & invariably the typo gets missed by me until it appears on the forum!! Just a fact of life I suppose but also why written works have proof reading before they are published. BTW I spotted the error 1.0 instead of 0.10 before I read your reply correcting it & I'm sure Noura did too.

      Noura-if you are no longer using the filter then it can be returned to the Goldfish tank if you are going to your Mom's house, so glad to hear the Barb is picking up again after the filter scare-you are doing great with limited resources. Also very pleased to know there have been no more hostilities in your area.

        John<o)))<



      On 31 January 2015 at 13:37, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      Noura,
       
      After re-reading my latest reply at least 6 or 8 times to make sure there were no errors before I sent it, I now see a glaring error after seeing it being posted.  Wouldn't you know these errors are nearly impossible to catch beforehand, but they always pop up after the fact.  Anyway, to make better sense of it, the third paragraph, fourth line, should have read -- If you can keep the ammonia level down to the 0.10 ppm (NOT 1.0 ppm ) that a 90% PWC should have reduced the ammonia to, . . .
       
      Apologies for not catching every typo gremlin, but that's why they're called gremlins; they can be very elusive < g >.
       
      Ray 
       
      In a message dated 1/31/2015 8:16:41 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Good morning Noura,
       
      No harm should have been done with placing that filter on the 2 gallon tank, but then no benefit would have come with using it either.  With possible pathogens in it though, it would not be the best choice to use it, even though the combination of medications should have killed off any introduced pathogens and the nitrobacters residing in it.  So, no harm done but I just didn't think it was a good idea.
       
      I see the ammonia appeared to not be building up quite as fast as was first concerned with, but after reading of your latest 90% PWC on a 1.0 ppm ammonia level resulting in .50 ppm after 4 hours, the rate of ammonia increase appears faster than what was first indicated.  As we get a better picture on this, much of what needs to be done by PWC's should be able to be figured mathematically, but that complete picture is yet to be seen.  Example on the math however, a 50% PWC on a tank having a 2.0 ppm level ammonia will cut this level in half -- to 1.0 ppm (as of late last night).  Since that 2.0 ppm reading appears where it has remained for that previous past 12 hours, it should be very easy to keep under control with moderate PWC's, except for the unforeseen factors.  Another 50% PWC on a tank having a level of 1.0 ppm could be expected to cut this in half, to 0.50 ppm; still too high to prevent stress on the Barb from excess ammonia.  You need to keep the ammonia level down below 0.25 ppm, and now with the temperature being maintained at 24 o C (that's 76 o F for others reading this), the ammonia level should preferably be below 0.20; ideally, it should be at zero, so don't be afraid to change too much.   
       
      So, now this morning, with the 90% PWC (on a 1.0 ppm ammonia level), this should reduce the ammonia to 0.10 ppm.  Since it appears that the ammonia level is now instead up to 0.50 ppm after only 4 hours, it appears that the ammonia is increasing at a faster rate that previously figured.  If you can keep the ammonia level down to the 1.0 ppm that a 90% PWC should have reduced the ammonia to, then the fish only needs to contend with fighting off the disease and its stress but not both stressors.  Besides doing ammonia tests before doing PWC's, you should also do a test right after making the PWC's to see the results of the change if it becomes difficult to figure mathematically.  Besides which, as I said, there seems to be unforeseen factors entering into this equation -- the possibility that the test kit is not giving accurate results just being one of these factors.  
       
      For now, it looks like testing every 12 hours would be the best way of keeping on top of the ammonia level, and doing a PWC at those times in an amount needed to keep the ammonia down as low as possible.  If this requires 90% PWC every 12 hours, then at least you know what's needed to keep the water as free of ammonia as needed for this fish's health.  Right now, the ammonia results are erratic, when I see that a 50% PWC on a 2.0 ppm results 1.0 ppm -- half of the original ammonia amount, but another PWC (of 90%) on a 1.0 ppm ammonia level still results in half (0.50 ppm) of the original ammonia amount -- and after only 4 hours.  There seems to be no pattern developing in the rate of ammonia production.  I hope you're understanding what I mean, and can see this for yourself.  
       
      If the ammonia level is 0.50 ppm right now, do another PWC immediately.  Mathematically, a minimum PWC in this case of 60% should reduce this ammonia level to 0.20 ppm, but as that apparently can't be relied upon to work mathematically until some pattern can emerge, do another 90% PWC and retest for the ammonia.  After 4 hours, retest it again and after 12 hours retest still again.  If at any point you see the ammonia rise above 0.20 (or 0.25 at the most) do another 90% PWC -- and retest it.  If you see any appreciable amount of ammonia increase after only another 4 hours, then you'll know you'll need to retest for ammonia after no more than this amount of time and to make PWC's each of those times, as necessary.  Hope this works out for you.  Keep reporting back and maybe some pattern will be seen to better judge the amount of PWC's going forward.  
       
      Ray
      .
       
       
       
      In a message dated 1/31/2015 6:59:39 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Good morning Ray,

      It's okay to be late in approving my messages. It's you who will probably reply anyway, so you're not delaying any other assistance from reaching me :)

      I will remove the filter now, and hope that no harm has been done by introducing any pathogens :(
      I should have thought of that risk, especially that seeing the Barb improving despite of the 2 ppm reading of ammonia convinced me that what he had was probably an infectious illness, not an ammonia poisoning, just as you concluded. Now he has to fight both.

      Yesterday's late night reading appeared to be slightly higher than 1.0 ppm. Since it was 2.0 ppm 12 hours before that right before I did a 50% PWC, then it seems that Ammonia is not building up too fast.

      The Barb was still unwell this morning, 10 hours after that 2 minutes of filter running, lying on his side all night apparently (I think that I'm 7 hours ahead of you). I did the 90% PWC as soon as I woke up this morning, even before testing, he seems much better now.

      Regarding the temperature, I need to keep it at 24 C, no less. because with the 3 hours power outages, I noticed an average drop of 2 degrees in temperature.

      I performed an ammonia testing while typing this, about 4 hours after the 90% PWC, it's 0.50 ppm

      I will re-read your detailed instructions regarding testing and water changes, take notes, and follow them!
      I'm adding back all 3 treatments after each PWC.

      Thank you Ray!

      Noura



      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56505 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/31/2015
      Subject: Re: Fluval FX
      AOL Email
      Hi Harry,
       
      Malawi Cichlids are a good choice, especially if you're somewhat familiar with them.  Theirs a big difference though, in the behavior of Mbuna vs Peacocks, with many species being more aggressive than others.  To avoid getting the most aggresive species of Mbuna -- if that's the way you finally decide -- why don't you post your choice here first to get some feedback.  Peacocks are not nearly as aggressive as most Mbuna although species like Yellow Labs (Labidochromis caeruleus) are fairly peaceful for being a Mbuna species.  So, they're not all "nasty." < g >.  Yes, a small layer of play sand (well rinsed) would be the way to go.  Additionally, you'll need a lot of rockwork -- enough so that there is at least one more "cave" than there are the number of fish, when maintaining Mbunas, and preferably more.  Peacocks are only mildly aggressive, similar to Yellow Labs, but they still need some rockwork to retreat to when things get a bit hectic. 
       
      I'm not a filter expert, but I do know that the Fluval ("High Performance") FX 6 is designed for aquariums up to 400 gallons.  That almost 8 times the size of your tank.  The turnover/flow rate of this filter is 563 GPH.  That's a large water flow; that's 10 X the capacity of your tank -- GROSS OVERKILL.  This would be good for a 55 gallon reef tank, but most reports advise a turnover rate of between 4 and 5 times the tank's capacity, for freshwater aquariums. Some sources recommend from 5 to 8 times the tank's capacity and yet others advise from 6 to 7 times the tank's capacity, as the ideal flow rate.  I believe the last two sets of figures are unnecessarily high for freshwater, but if you want to go middle-of-the-road, don't go much more the 6 X the tank's volume (or 7 X -- maximum). 
       
      For Fluval's 06 Multi-Stage Canister Filter line, Fluval recommends their Model 306 for up to a 70 gallon tank.  This filter has a flow rate of 303 GPH, not quite 6 X the tank's capacity.  Their next largest Model 406 is designed for tanks up to 100 gallons and has a flow rate of 383 GPH -- just about 7 X your tank's volume.  I believe this is too large of a flow, but at least it's much more moderate than the Fluval FX 6.  Keep in mind too, Malawi Cichlids are lacustrine (lake) fish; they're not used to strong currents.  They haven't evolved as riverine species, being used to heavy current flows.  I'd suggest you at least ask around first before diving into this purchase.  I know some filters can be adjusted for flow, but I can't tell you if Fluvals have this feature.  If they do, I doubt that the 563 GPH flow of the FX 6 could be reduced by any more than 20% (if that), which could drop it to 451.6 GPH if this were possible (still quite fast). 
       
      Ray
          
       
      In a message dated 1/31/2015 3:42:24 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

      Afternoon all .

      Now that I have the 55 gal. tank pulled a part the “might as well go ahead and…. “ has set in.
      We will probably go with cichlids , Mbuna  or Peacocks not sure yet. I understand the do better with a sand substrate and Ray says to go with play sand instead of pool filter sand which sounds good to me.

      Ive been looking at the Fluval FX 6 filters , anyone have any experience with them ?
      It will be going in the 55 gal and I’m sure it will be over kill but would like to have ample filtration but don’t want the fish to struggle with current , so I guess my question is , can the flow be adjusted down to a good level for fish and still plenty of filtration.

      Thanks
      Harry

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      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56506 From: Harry Leverett Date: 1/31/2015
      Subject: Re: Fluval FX
      I was afraid the FX 6 would be too much. I had a 306 on the tank but was never impressed with its filtration abilities. the water always had a lot of particulate in it, but,,, that could have been the way I had the baskets set up , course sponge bottom , sea chem matrix in the middle and polishing pads on top. to be honest , my wife gave me the aquarium for a christmas present and I hurried through it set up and through things together. I think we will go with the Peacocks for their temperament. I like the Mbuna because you have instant color instead of having to wait for the Peacocks to mature. 

      Just for kicks and grins I did the Drs Foster Smith hot line and ask them the question about the FX6 being over kill. I know you’ll be shocked, they said it would be just fine ;-0 I had no doubt what the answer would be LOL

      Thanks again Ray
      Harry
      On Jan 31, 2015, at 3:47 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


      Hi Harry,
       
      Malawi Cichlids are a good choice, especially if you're somewhat familiar with them.  Theirs a big difference though, in the behavior of Mbuna vs Peacocks, with many species being more aggressive than others.  To avoid getting the most aggresive species of Mbuna -- if that's the way you finally decide -- why don't you post your choice here first to get some feedback.  Peacocks are not nearly as aggressive as most Mbuna although species like Yellow Labs (Labidochromis caeruleus) are fairly peaceful for being a Mbuna species.  So, they're not all "nasty." < g >.  Yes, a small layer of play sand (well rinsed) would be the way to go.  Additionally, you'll need a lot of rockwork -- enough so that there is at least one more "cave" than there are the number of fish, when maintaining Mbunas, and preferably more.  Peacocks are only mildly aggressive, similar to Yellow Labs, but they still need some rockwork to retreat to when things get a bit hectic. 
       
      I'm not a filter expert, but I do know that the Fluval ("High Performance") FX 6 is designed for aquariums up to 400 gallons.  That almost 8 times the size of your tank.  The turnover/flow rate of this filter is 563 GPH.  That's a large water flow; that's 10 X the capacity of your tank -- GROSS OVERKILL.  This would be good for a 55 gallon reef tank, but most reports advise a turnover rate of between 4 and 5 times the tank's capacity, for freshwater aquariums. Some sources recommend from 5 to 8 times the tank's capacity and yet others advise from 6 to 7 times the tank's capacity, as the ideal flow rate.  I believe the last two sets of figures are unnecessarily high for freshwater, but if you want to go middle-of-the-road, don't go much more the 6 X the tank's volume (or 7 X -- maximum). 
       
      For Fluval's 06 Multi-Stage Canister Filter line, Fluval recommends their Model 306 for up to a 70 gallon tank.  This filter has a flow rate of 303 GPH, not quite 6 X the tank's capacity.  Their next largest Model 406 is designed for tanks up to 100 gallons and has a flow rate of 383 GPH -- just about 7 X your tank's volume.  I believe this is too large of a flow, but at least it's much more moderate than the Fluval FX 6.  Keep in mind too, Malawi Cichlids are lacustrine (lake) fish; they're not used to strong currents.  They haven't evolved as riverine species, being used to heavy current flows.  I'd suggest you at least ask around first before diving into this purchase.  I know some filters can be adjusted for flow, but I can't tell you if Fluvals have this feature.  If they do, I doubt that the 563 GPH flow of the FX 6 could be reduced by any more than 20% (if that), which could drop it to 451.6 GPH if this were possible (still quite fast). 
       
      Ray
          
       
      In a message dated 1/31/2015 3:42:24 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

      Afternoon all .

      Now that I have the 55 gal. tank pulled a part the “might as well go ahead and…. “ has set in.
      We will probably go with cichlids , Mbuna  or Peacocks not sure yet. I understand the do better with a sand substrate and Ray says to go with play sand instead of pool filter sand which sounds good to me.

      Ive been looking at the Fluval FX 6 filters , anyone have any experience with them ?
      It will be going in the 55 gal and I’m sure it will be over kill but would like to have ample filtration but don’t want the fish to struggle with current , so I guess my question is , can the flow be adjusted down to a good level for fish and still plenty of filtration.

      Thanks
      Harry

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      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56507 From: noura_taweel Date: 1/31/2015
      Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
      Hi John,
      I just saw this post now.
      I hold the tube against the reference sheet itself, above the white columns and right next to the color rectangles. I consult my hubby too, and we often see the same result. I'm just glad I was even able of getting the kit some years ago, I had some friends who were aquarium fish lovers before the war, they had to use some really funny ways to estimate the water's quality, like small and they mentioned a thin white layer on the surface, etc.. I would listen in disbelief, but these were all they could do in the absence of test kits of any kind.

      Cheers!
      Noura
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56508 From: noura_taweel Date: 1/31/2015
      Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
      Hi,
      I'm wondering why these two threads are mixed together?
      I'm checking from the group's homepage in my browser. I don't know if this is part of why I don't see them separate?

      Noura
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56509 From: noura_taweel Date: 1/31/2015
      Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
      Hi Ray,
      Indeed, I wasn't able of performing a PWC yesterday night.

      Tonight's test results for ammonia are 1.0 ppm before, and somewhere between 0.25 - 0.50 ppm after the 90% PWC. It should be lower. Perhaps the kit's results are not accurate, you think?

      I also tested both my tap water and my fully cycled Guppy tank, both came between 0 and 0.25 ppm. They used to be 0 a couple of years ago before the kit expired.

      I check the tube's color against the same reference sheet that comes with the kit, I place the tube on the white columns. I also consult a fresh pair of eyes (my hubby's!) to determine the correct color match.

      What do you think is going on?
      I can up the PWC anyway and make them 3 times a day.

      Thank you!
      Noura
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56510 From: Harry Leverett Date: 1/31/2015
      Subject: Re: Fluval FX
      Damn, Talk about TYPOS. I’m full of them. Mind and fingers don’t come close to working together. LOL
      Harry
      On Jan 31, 2015, at 4:11 PM, Harry Leverett <harryleverett60@...> wrote:

      I was afraid the FX 6 would be too much. I had a 306 on the tank but was never impressed with its filtration abilities. the water always had a lot of particulate in it, but,,, that could have been the way I had the baskets set up , course sponge bottom , sea chem matrix in the middle and polishing pads on top. to be honest , my wife gave me the aquarium for a christmas present and I hurried through it set up and through things together. I think we will go with the Peacocks for their temperament. I like the Mbuna because you have instant color instead of having to wait for the Peacocks to mature. 

      Just for kicks and grins I did the Drs Foster Smith hot line and ask them the question about the FX6 being over kill. I know you’ll be shocked, they said it would be just fine ;-0 I had no doubt what the answer would be LOL

      Thanks again Ray
      Harry
      On Jan 31, 2015, at 3:47 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


      Hi Harry,
       
      Malawi Cichlids are a good choice, especially if you're somewhat familiar with them.  Theirs a big difference though, in the behavior of Mbuna vs Peacocks, with many species being more aggressive than others.  To avoid getting the most aggresive species of Mbuna -- if that's the way you finally decide -- why don't you post your choice here first to get some feedback.  Peacocks are not nearly as aggressive as most Mbuna although species like Yellow Labs (Labidochromis caeruleus) are fairly peaceful for being a Mbuna species.  So, they're not all "nasty." < g >.  Yes, a small layer of play sand (well rinsed) would be the way to go.  Additionally, you'll need a lot of rockwork -- enough so that there is at least one more "cave" than there are the number of fish, when maintaining Mbunas, and preferably more.  Peacocks are only mildly aggressive, similar to Yellow Labs, but they still need some rockwork to retreat to when things get a bit hectic. 
       
      I'm not a filter expert, but I do know that the Fluval ("High Performance") FX 6 is designed for aquariums up to 400 gallons.  That almost 8 times the size of your tank.  The turnover/flow rate of this filter is 563 GPH.  That's a large water flow; that's 10 X the capacity of your tank -- GROSS OVERKILL.  This would be good for a 55 gallon reef tank, but most reports advise a turnover rate of between 4 and 5 times the tank's capacity, for freshwater aquariums. Some sources recommend from 5 to 8 times the tank's capacity and yet others advise from 6 to 7 times the tank's capacity, as the ideal flow rate.  I believe the last two sets of figures are unnecessarily high for freshwater, but if you want to go middle-of-the-road, don't go much more the 6 X the tank's volume (or 7 X -- maximum). 
       
      For Fluval's 06 Multi-Stage Canister Filter line, Fluval recommends their Model 306 for up to a 70 gallon tank.  This filter has a flow rate of 303 GPH, not quite 6 X the tank's capacity.  Their next largest Model 406 is designed for tanks up to 100 gallons and has a flow rate of 383 GPH -- just about 7 X your tank's volume.  I believe this is too large of a flow, but at least it's much more moderate than the Fluval FX 6.  Keep in mind too, Malawi Cichlids are lacustrine (lake) fish; they're not used to strong currents.  They haven't evolved as riverine species, being used to heavy current flows.  I'd suggest you at least ask around first before diving into this purchase.  I know some filters can be adjusted for flow, but I can't tell you if Fluvals have this feature.  If they do, I doubt that the 563 GPH flow of the FX 6 could be reduced by any more than 20% (if that), which could drop it to 451.6 GPH if this were possible (still quite fast). 
       
      Ray
          
       
      In a message dated 1/31/2015 3:42:24 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

      Afternoon all .

      Now that I have the 55 gal. tank pulled a part the “might as well go ahead and…. “ has set in.
      We will probably go with cichlids , Mbuna  or Peacocks not sure yet. I understand the do better with a sand substrate and Ray says to go with play sand instead of pool filter sand which sounds good to me.

      Ive been looking at the Fluval FX 6 filters , anyone have any experience with them ?
      It will be going in the 55 gal and I’m sure it will be over kill but would like to have ample filtration but don’t want the fish to struggle with current , so I guess my question is , can the flow be adjusted down to a good level for fish and still plenty of filtration.

      Thanks
      Harry

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      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56511 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/31/2015
      Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
      AOL Email
      Hi Noura,
       
      Okay, that's understandable, not being up to doing a PWC that late at night.  IF the ammonia level were at 1.0 ppm before you did the PWC, a 90% water change should have reduced it to 0.10 ppm.  That it didn't can mean several things -- 1) the initial 1.0 ppm reading may have actually been higher (and you either misread the results or the test kit is inaccurate), or 2) the initial 1.0 ppm is fairly accurate but you misread the test of the smaller amount of ammonia after the PWC, and/or the test kit is inaccurate, or 3) the test kit is inaccurate.  Looks like with two pairs of eyes reading the tests, the chances are good that you're coming up with a good match to the chart, so it's not very likely that you have bad readings.  As you're saying that even the Guppy tank and the tap water is showing an ammonia level when they never used to, I'm more inclined to believe the test kit is no longer accurate.  But, as this is all we have to go by, we'll have to assume it's within an accurate range and change more water even if it's not really needed -- just to ensure that the Barb is not being stressed by ammonia. 
       
      Your suggestion of doing 3 PWC's per day would seem the thing to do -- if you can do it --  even if it's more than really needed.  At the very least, this should keep the ammonia level at an absolute minimum.  So, yes, do three PWC's per day -- and post the results before and after for the first few days.  This may give some indication of the ammonia content, ongoing.  I don't want you to use all of the test reagent as you may need it at a later date, so this should be enough testing for now.  I can't see why the ammonia could elevate at any faster rate than your making three 90% PWC's to remove it in the same amount of time; it just can't happen and so I believe the fish should remain safe through this.  Hopefully, he'll be getting healthier soon.  Send a message if he starts to eat something.  That should show he's feeling better.
       
      Ray
       
      In a message dated 1/31/2015 5:29:33 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hi Ray,
      Indeed, I wasn't able of performing a PWC yesterday night.

      Tonight's test results for ammonia are 1.0 ppm before, and somewhere between 0.25 - 0.50 ppm after the 90% PWC. It should be lower. Perhaps the kit's results are not accurate, you think?

      I also tested both my tap water and my fully cycled Guppy tank, both came between 0 and 0.25 ppm. They used to be 0 a couple of years ago before the kit expired.

      I check the tube's color against the same reference sheet that comes with the kit, I place the tube on the white columns. I also consult a fresh pair of eyes (my hubby's!) to determine the correct color match.

      What do you think is going on?
      I can up the PWC anyway and make them 3 times a day.

      Thank you!
      Noura

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56512 From: Donna Ransome Date: 1/31/2015
      Subject: Re: Fluval FX
      I find 10X hourly turnover perfect with Malawi. I don’t have Ray’s experience but I have 8 tanks and have been keeping them for 10 years now.



      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2015 4:48 PM
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Fluval FX






      Hi Harry,



      Malawi Cichlids are a good choice, especially if you're somewhat familiar with them. Theirs a big difference though, in the behavior of Mbuna vs Peacocks, with many species being more aggressive than others. To avoid getting the most aggresive species of Mbuna -- if that's the way you finally decide -- why don't you post your choice here first to get some feedback. Peacocks are not nearly as aggressive as most Mbuna although species like Yellow Labs (Labidochromis caeruleus) are fairly peaceful for being a Mbuna species. So, they're not all "nasty." < g >. Yes, a small layer of play sand (well rinsed) would be the way to go. Additionally, you'll need a lot of rockwork -- enough so that there is at least one more "cave" than there are the number of fish, when maintaining Mbunas, and preferably more. Peacocks are only mildly aggressive, similar to Yellow Labs, but they still need some rockwork to retreat to when things get a bit hectic.



      I'm not a filter expert, but I do know that the Fluval ("High Performance") FX 6 is designed for aquariums up to 400 gallons. That almost 8 times the size of your tank. The turnover/flow rate of this filter is 563 GPH. That's a large water flow; that's 10 X the capacity of your tank -- GROSS OVERKILL. This would be good for a 55 gallon reef tank, but most reports advise a turnover rate of between 4 and 5 times the tank's capacity, for freshwater aquariums. Some sources recommend from 5 to 8 times the tank's capacity and yet others advise from 6 to 7 times the tank's capacity, as the ideal flow rate. I believe the last two sets of figures are unnecessarily high for freshwater, but if you want to go middle-of-the-road, don't go much more the 6 X the tank's volume (or 7 X -- maximum).



      For Fluval's 06 Multi-Stage Canister Filter line, Fluval recommends their Model 306 for up to a 70 gallon tank. This filter has a flow rate of 303 GPH, not quite 6 X the tank's capacity. Their next largest Model 406 is designed for tanks up to 100 gallons and has a flow rate of 383 GPH -- just about 7 X your tank's volume. I believe this is too large of a flow, but at least it's much more moderate than the Fluval FX 6. Keep in mind too, Malawi Cichlids are lacustrine (lake) fish; they're not used to strong currents. They haven't evolved as riverine species, being used to heavy current flows. I'd suggest you at least ask around first before diving into this purchase. I know some filters can be adjusted for flow, but I can't tell you if Fluvals have this feature. If they do, I doubt that the 563 GPH flow of the FX 6 could be reduced by any more than 20% (if that), which could drop it to 451.6 GPH if this were possible (still quite fast).



      Ray





      In a message dated 1/31/2015 3:42:24 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:


      Afternoon all .

      Now that I have the 55 gal. tank pulled a part the “might as well go ahead and…. “ has set in.
      We will probably go with cichlids , Mbuna or Peacocks not sure yet. I understand the do better with a sand substrate and Ray says to go with play sand instead of pool filter sand which sounds good to me.

      Ive been looking at the Fluval FX 6 filters , anyone have any experience with them ?
      It will be going in the 55 gal and I’m sure it will be over kill but would like to have ample filtration but don’t want the fish to struggle with current , so I guess my question is , can the flow be adjusted down to a good level for fish and still plenty of filtration.

      Thanks
      Harry

      ------------------------------------

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      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56513 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/31/2015
      Subject: Re: Fluval FX
      AOL Email
      Thanks Donna, your input is greatly appreciated.  I don't keep these fish in nearly as fast of a water turnover and all reports I've read don't even recommend marine fish to be kept at 10 X the turnover rate, but instead say that it's best (only) for reef aquariums.  However, as you've maintained Mbuna Cichlids for a good while and find this flow rate still fine for them, I'll happily accept your opinion (even though it wouldn't be my choice). 
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 1/31/2015 11:01:15 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      I find 10X hourly turnover perfect with Malawi. I don’t have Ray’s experience but I have 8 tanks and have been keeping them for 10 years now.

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2015 4:48 PM
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Fluval FX

      Hi Harry,

      Malawi Cichlids are a good choice, especially if you're somewhat familiar with them. Theirs a big difference though, in the behavior of Mbuna vs Peacocks, with many species being more aggressive than others. To avoid getting the most aggresive species of Mbuna -- if that's the way you finally decide -- why don't you post your choice here first to get some feedback. Peacocks are not nearly as aggressive as most Mbuna although species like Yellow Labs (Labidochromis caeruleus) are fairly peaceful for being a Mbuna species. So, they're not all "nasty." < g >. Yes, a small layer of play sand (well rinsed) would be the way to go. Additionally, you'll need a lot of rockwork -- enough so that there is at least one more "cave" than there are the number of fish, when maintaining Mbunas, and preferably more. Peacocks are only mildly aggressive, similar to Yellow Labs, but they still need some rockwork to retreat to when things get a bit hectic.

      I'm not a filter expert, but I do know that the Fluval ("High Performance") FX 6 is designed for aquariums up to 400 gallons. That almost 8 times the size of your tank. The turnover/flow rate of this filter is 563 GPH. That's a large water flow; that's 10 X the capacity of your tank -- GROSS OVERKILL. This would be good for a 55 gallon reef tank, but most reports advise a turnover rate of between 4 and 5 times the tank's capacity, for freshwater aquariums. Some sources recommend from 5 to 8 times the tank's capacity and yet others advise from 6 to 7 times the tank's capacity, as the ideal flow rate. I believe the last two sets of figures are unnecessarily high for freshwater, but if you want to go middle-of-the-road, don't go much more the 6 X the tank's volume (or 7 X -- maximum).

      For Fluval's 06 Multi-Stage Canister Filter line, Fluval recommends their Model 306 for up to a 70 gallon tank. This filter has a flow rate of 303 GPH, not quite 6 X the tank's capacity. Their next largest Model 406 is designed for tanks up to 100 gallons and has a flow rate of 383 GPH -- just about 7 X your tank's volume. I believe this is too large of a flow, but at least it's much more moderate than the Fluval FX 6. Keep in mind too, Malawi Cichlids are lacustrine (lake) fish; they're not used to strong currents. They haven't evolved as riverine species, being used to heavy current flows. I'd suggest you at least ask around first before diving into this purchase. I know some filters can be adjusted for flow, but I can't tell you if Fluvals have this feature. If they do, I doubt that the 563 GPH flow of the FX 6 could be reduced by any more than 20% (if that), which could drop it to 451.6 GPH if this were possible (still quite fast).

      Ray

      In a message dated 1/31/2015 3:42:24 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

      Afternoon all .

      Now that I have the 55 gal. tank pulled a part the “might as well go ahead and…. “ has set in.
      We will probably go with cichlids , Mbuna or Peacocks not sure yet. I understand the do better with a sand substrate and Ray says to go with play sand instead of pool filter sand which sounds good to me.

      Ive been looking at the Fluval FX 6 filters , anyone have any experience with them ?
      It will be going in the 55 gal and I’m sure it will be over kill but would like to have ample filtration but don’t want the fish to struggle with current , so I guess my question is , can the flow be adjusted down to a good level for fish and still plenty of filtration.

      Thanks
      Harry

      ------------------------------------

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      Join us on our Facebook page...https://www.facebook.com/AquaticLifeGroup

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      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56514 From: noura_taweel Date: 1/31/2015
      Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
      Good morning Ray,
      Sounds like the plan to do!
      This morning's readings, about 10 hours after the last PWC:
      0.50 ppm of ammonia before, and 0.25 ppm of ammonia after a 90% PWC.

      I still have enough Methylene Blue to use for 15 more huge PWCs. I hope that's enough because I couldn't find any new supply. I could try the university labs, though. I know someone who may be willing to give me some!

      I haven't seen "Silver" eating yet, there are no visible droppings either. I tried freezedried tubifex worms, and ordinary flakes (very small amounts).

      I will do 2 more PWCs today and report back.

      Thank you for your generous help!
      Noura
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56515 From: sevenspringss Date: 2/1/2015
      Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
      AOL Email
      Good Morning Noura,
       
      I'd guess it's about 10:30 AM by you right now.  The results from the ammonia readings look good, even if we're not sure if the numbers are correct.  Just keep up with the 90% PWC's; that's about all you can do to keep the ammonia level down -- unless you can find that ion-exchange resin filter medium that removes ammonia.  It looks like aquarium gravel (same size granules) but is colored pure white.    
       
      You can reduce the Methylene Blue doses by 1/3 and it will still be effective for this purpose.  If you think you can get more at the lab, you should try it.  Too bad he's not eating yet.  I'd guess that when he was eating at your mom's place, he was eating flake food (?).  When you do the PWC's, be sure to remove the uneaten food too of course, at those times.  I know you don't have a source for live fish foods, but there would be a better chance of him eating if he were presented with something moving to entice him.  Let's hope he decides to eat soon and keep trying him on what foods you have.  Will hear from you later.
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 2/1/2015 2:44:20 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Good morning Ray,
      Sounds like the plan to do!
      This morning's readings, about 10 hours after the last PWC:
      0.50 ppm of ammonia before, and 0.25 ppm of ammonia after a 90% PWC.

      I still have enough Methylene Blue to use for 15 more huge PWCs. I hope that's enough because I couldn't find any new supply. I could try the university labs, though. I know someone who may be willing to give me some!

      I haven't seen "Silver" eating yet, there are no visible droppings either. I tried freezedried tubifex worms, and ordinary flakes (very small amounts).

      I will do 2 more PWCs today and report back.

      Thank you for your generous help!
      Noura

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56516 From: Noura T. Date: 2/1/2015
      Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

      Hi Ray,

      Surprised to see this from you that early in the morning (or late at night?).

      Yes, when he was at my mom’s, his diet consisted of flakes, occasionally freeze dried worms, and fresh lettuce.

      He’s pecking at the bottom since that’s where he’s sitting all the time. I don’t think he’s searching for food as he did it when he was really sick more often than he’s doing it now. But I’m hoping that some food particles just happen to get in him.

      His droppings could be confused for the dried worms, although they are usually thicker. So just maybe he’s eating.

       

      Noura

       

       

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 01 شباط, 2015 10:34 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

       

      Good Morning Noura,

       

      I'd guess it's about 10:30 AM by you right now.  The results from the ammonia readings look good, even if we're not sure if the numbers are correct.  Just keep up with the 90% PWC's; that's about all you can do to keep the ammonia level down -- unless you can find that ion-exchange resin filter medium that removes ammonia.  It looks like aquarium gravel (same size granules) but is colored pure white.    

       

      You can reduce the Methylene Blue doses by 1/3 and it will still be effective for this purpose.  If you think you can get more at the lab, you should try it.  Too bad he's not eating yet.  I'd guess that when he was eating at your mom's place, he was eating flake food (?).  When you do the PWC's, be sure to remove the uneaten food too of course, at those times.  I know you don't have a source for live fish foods, but there would be a better chance of him eating if he were presented with something moving to entice him.  Let's hope he decides to eat soon and keep trying him on what foods you have.  Will hear from you later.

       

      Ray

       

       

      In a message dated 2/1/2015 2:44:20 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

       

      Good morning Ray,
      Sounds like the plan to do!
      This morning's readings, about 10 hours after the last PWC:
      0.50 ppm of ammonia before, and 0.25 ppm of ammonia after a 90% PWC.

      I still have enough Methylene Blue to use for 15 more huge PWCs. I hope that's enough because I couldn't find any new supply. I could try the university labs, though. I know someone who may be willing to give me some!

      I haven't seen "Silver" eating yet, there are no visible droppings either. I tried freezedried tubifex worms, and ordinary flakes (very small amounts).

      I will do 2 more PWCs today and report back.

      Thank you for your generous help!
      Noura

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56517 From: sevenspringss Date: 2/1/2015
      Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
      AOL Email
      Hi Noura,
       
      Okay, so at least he's familiar with these foods, as food.  All we can hope for is that he'll fell well enough to eat soon.  Yes, he just may be getting some of those food particles in him, even if just by accident.  I guess time will tell if he makes it through this completely.
       
      Ray
       
       
       
      In a message dated 2/1/2015 7:14:57 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hi Ray,

      Surprised to see this from you that early in the morning (or late at night?).

      Yes, when he was at my mom’s, his diet consisted of flakes, occasionally freeze dried worms, and fresh lettuce.

      He’s pecking at the bottom since that’s where he’s sitting all the time. I don’t think he’s searching for food as he did it when he was really sick more often than he’s doing it now. But I’m hoping that some food particles just happen to get in him.

      His droppings could be confused for the dried worms, although they are usually thicker. So just maybe he’s eating.

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 01 شباط, 2015 10:34 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

      Good Morning Noura,

      I'd guess it's about 10:30 AM by you right now.  The results from the ammonia readings look good, even if we're not sure if the numbers are correct.  Just keep up with the 90% PWC's; that's about all you can do to keep the ammonia level down -- unless you can find that ion-exchange resin filter medium that removes ammonia.  It looks like aquarium gravel (same size granules) but is colored pure white.    

      You can reduce the Methylene Blue doses by 1/3 and it will still be effective for this purpose.  If you think you can get more at the lab, you should try it.  Too bad he's not eating yet.  I'd guess that when he was eating at your mom's place, he was eating flake food (?).  When you do the PWC's, be sure to remove the uneaten food too of course, at those times.  I know you don't have a source for live fish foods, but there would be a better chance of him eating if he were presented with something moving to entice him.  Let's hope he decides to eat soon and keep trying him on what foods you have.  Will hear from you later.

      Ray

       

      In a message dated 2/1/2015 2:44:20 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

       

      Good morning Ray,
      Sounds like the plan to do!
      This morning's readings, about 10 hours after the last PWC:
      0.50 ppm of ammonia before, and 0.25 ppm of ammonia after a 90% PWC.

      I still have enough Methylene Blue to use for 15 more huge PWCs. I hope that's enough because I couldn't find any new supply. I could try the university labs, though. I know someone who may be willing to give me some!

      I haven't seen "Silver" eating yet, there are no visible droppings either. I tried freezedried tubifex worms, and ordinary flakes (very small amounts).

      I will do 2 more PWCs today and report back.

      Thank you for your generous help!
      Noura

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56518 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 2/1/2015
      Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
      Hi Noura,

        Apologies about the mix up-there isn't another thread, I just commented on the test kits as part of this thread. Ray-hope I'm not out of line for doing this as I wasn't intending to stat a long discussion about test kits?

        John<o)))<

      On 31 January 2015 at 22:15, n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      Hi,
      I'm wondering why these two threads are mixed together?
      I'm checking from the group's homepage in my browser. I don't know if this is part of why I don't see them separate?

      Noura


      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56519 From: sevenspringss Date: 2/1/2015
      Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
      AOL Email
      Hi John,
       
      Any cross-threading got beyond me.  I thought all these posts were on the same subject, even if the subject lines were different -- which I didn't notice.  I don't see you as being out of line, but perhaps it was confusing (but just not to me). 
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 2/1/2015 10:10:31 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hi Noura,

        Apologies about the mix up-there isn't another thread, I just commented on the test kits as part of this thread. Ray-hope I'm not out of line for doing this as I wasn't intending to stat a long discussion about test kits?

        John<o)))<

      On 31 January 2015 at 22:15, n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      Hi,
      I'm wondering why these two threads are mixed together?
      I'm checking from the group's homepage in my browser. I don't know if this is part of why I don't see them separate?

      Noura


      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56520 From: Harry Leverett Date: 2/1/2015
      Subject: Antibiotics
      Hey Ray
      I'm going to start gathering my fish meds war chest. The LFS has about zero in the meds department. Where is the best place to order the list of meds you emailed.

      Harry

      Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID


      "sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Hi John,
       
      Any cross-threading got beyond me.  I thought all these posts were on the same subject, even if the subject lines were different -- which I didn't notice.  I don't see you as being out of line, but perhaps it was confusing (but just not to me). 
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 2/1/2015 10:10:31 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hi Noura,

        Apologies about the mix up-there isn't another thread, I just commented on the test kits as part of this thread. Ray-hope I'm not out of line for doing this as I wasn't intending to stat a long discussion about test kits?

        John<o)))<

      On 31 January 2015 at 22:15, n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      Hi,
      I'm wondering why these two threads are mixed together?
      I'm checking from the group's homepage in my browser. I don't know if this is part of why I don't see them separate?

      Noura


      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56521 From: Noura T. Date: 2/1/2015
      Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

      Hi Ray,

      The latest ammonia readings are:

      A bit higher than 0.25 ppm before, and a bit higher than 0 ppm after a 90% PWC.

      Maybe we’re starting to get this under control J

      The last PWC for today will be in 4 or 5 hours from now. Then 9 hours later (tomorrow morning).

       

      Why is the Barb always sitting in the bottom? Do you think the illness affected his air bladder?

       

      Thank you!

      Noura

       

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 01 شباط, 2015 02:21 م
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

       

      Hi Noura,

       

      Okay, so at least he's familiar with these foods, as food.  All we can hope for is that he'll fell well enough to eat soon.  Yes, he just may be getting some of those food particles in him, even if just by accident.  I guess time will tell if he makes it through this completely.

       

      Ray

       

       

       

      In a message dated 2/1/2015 7:14:57 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

       

      Hi Ray,

      Surprised to see this from you that early in the morning (or late at night?).

      Yes, when he was at my mom’s, his diet consisted of flakes, occasionally freeze dried worms, and fresh lettuce.

      He’s pecking at the bottom since that’s where he’s sitting all the time. I don’t think he’s searching for food as he did it when he was really sick more often than he’s doing it now. But I’m hoping that some food particles just happen to get in him.

      His droppings could be confused for the dried worms, although they are usually thicker. So just maybe he’s eating.

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 01 شباط, 2015 10:34 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

      Good Morning Noura,

      I'd guess it's about 10:30 AM by you right now.  The results from the ammonia readings look good, even if we're not sure if the numbers are correct.  Just keep up with the 90% PWC's; that's about all you can do to keep the ammonia level down -- unless you can find that ion-exchange resin filter medium that removes ammonia.  It looks like aquarium gravel (same size granules) but is colored pure white.    

      You can reduce the Methylene Blue doses by 1/3 and it will still be effective for this purpose.  If you think you can get more at the lab, you should try it.  Too bad he's not eating yet.  I'd guess that when he was eating at your mom's place, he was eating flake food (?).  When you do the PWC's, be sure to remove the uneaten food too of course, at those times.  I know you don't have a source for live fish foods, but there would be a better chance of him eating if he were presented with something moving to entice him.  Let's hope he decides to eat soon and keep trying him on what foods you have.  Will hear from you later.

      Ray

       

      In a message dated 2/1/2015 2:44:20 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

       

      Good morning Ray,
      Sounds like the plan to do!
      This morning's readings, about 10 hours after the last PWC:
      0.50 ppm of ammonia before, and 0.25 ppm of ammonia after a 90% PWC.

      I still have enough Methylene Blue to use for 15 more huge PWCs. I hope that's enough because I couldn't find any new supply. I could try the university labs, though. I know someone who may be willing to give me some!

      I haven't seen "Silver" eating yet, there are no visible droppings either. I tried freezedried tubifex worms, and ordinary flakes (very small amounts).

      I will do 2 more PWCs today and report back.

      Thank you for your generous help!
      Noura

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56522 From: Noura T. Date: 2/1/2015
      Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

      Oh no John,

      I wasn’t asking about your post.

      I saw several posts from “Harry” within the messages of my “Topic” when I was reading the messages from the group’s site (before changing my email settings to ‘Individual emails’). These posts were about a totally different topic. Perhaps Yahoogroups is just messed up these days!

       

      Cheers!

      Noura

       

       

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 01 شباط, 2015 06:42 م
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

       

      Hi John,

       

      Any cross-threading got beyond me.  I thought all these posts were on the same subject, even if the subject lines were different -- which I didn't notice.  I don't see you as being out of line, but perhaps it was confusing (but just not to me). 

       

      Ray

       

       

      In a message dated 2/1/2015 10:10:31 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

       

      Hi Noura,

        Apologies about the mix up-there isn't another thread, I just commented on the test kits as part of this thread. Ray-hope I'm not out of line for doing this as I wasn't intending to stat a long discussion about test kits?

        John<o)))<

       

      On 31 January 2015 at 22:15, n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Hi,
      I'm wondering why these two threads are mixed together?
      I'm checking from the group's homepage in my browser. I don't know if this is part of why I don't see them separate?

      Noura

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56523 From: Noura T. Date: 2/1/2015
      Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

      I have just figured out why my “Topic” includes several unrelated posts.

      Harry is using “Reply to group” option in the daily digest he’s receiving, instead of sending a fresh message or  clicking “Start a new topic”. And whenever anyone replies to his message, it will also appear in my topic, even if he changed the message “subject”.

       

      Harry if you’re reading this, please choose “Start a new topic” J

       

      Cheers!

      Noura

       

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 01 شباط, 2015 06:42 م
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

       

      Hi John,

       

      Any cross-threading got beyond me.  I thought all these posts were on the same subject, even if the subject lines were different -- which I didn't notice.  I don't see you as being out of line, but perhaps it was confusing (but just not to me). 

       

      Ray

       

       

      In a message dated 2/1/2015 10:10:31 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

       

      Hi Noura,

        Apologies about the mix up-there isn't another thread, I just commented on the test kits as part of this thread. Ray-hope I'm not out of line for doing this as I wasn't intending to stat a long discussion about test kits?

        John<o)))<

       

      On 31 January 2015 at 22:15, n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Hi,
      I'm wondering why these two threads are mixed together?
      I'm checking from the group's homepage in my browser. I don't know if this is part of why I don't see them separate?

      Noura

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56524 From: Harry Leverett Date: 2/1/2015
      Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
      I can't seem to find that option. I figured changing the header would suffice. I sorry

      Harry

      Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID


      "'Noura T.' n-ocean@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      I have just figured out why my “Topic” includes several unrelated posts.

      Harry is using “Reply to group” option in the daily digest he’s receiving, instead of sending a fresh message or  clicking “Start a new topic”. And whenever anyone replies to his message, it will also appear in my topic, even if he changed the message “subject”.

       

      Harry if you’re reading this, please choose “Start a new topic” J

       

      Cheers!

      Noura

       

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 01 شباط, 2015 06:42 م
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

       

      Hi John,

       

      Any cross-threading got beyond me.  I thought all these posts were on the same subject, even if the subject lines were different -- which I didn't notice.  I don't see you as being out of line, but perhaps it was confusing (but just not to me). 

       

      Ray

       

       

      In a message dated 2/1/2015 10:10:31 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

       

      Hi Noura,

        Apologies about the mix up-there isn't another thread, I just commented on the test kits as part of this thread. Ray-hope I'm not out of line for doing this as I wasn't intending to stat a long discussion about test kits?

        John<o)))<

       

      On 31 January 2015 at 22:15, n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Hi,
      I'm wondering why these two threads are mixed together?
      I'm checking from the group's homepage in my browser. I don't know if this is part of why I don't see them separate?

      Noura

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56525 From: sevenspringss Date: 2/1/2015
      Subject: Re: Antibiotics
      AOL Email
      Hi Harry,
       
      Too bad about your LFS not carrying any meds.  I usually buy things I need at my LFS as they still carry a good selection.  Other than your LFS, Drs Foster & Smith has some of the ones that are most important.  I buy lots of stuff from them too.  I notice though, that lately they've discontinued stocking some of the more important meds.  
       
      They do carry API Furan II (for most external issues; fungal and gram-negative bacterial),  API Triple Sulfa (for fungus ), Seachem KanaPlex (Kanamycin Sulfate -- for internal gram-negative bacterial issues), API Erythromycin (for gram-positive bacterial hemhorrhagic Septicemia) and -- only if your pH is below pH 7.5 -- Tetracyclin (for Columnaris).  They carry other meds, but nothing else all that important.  You should call them at 1-800-443-1160 and they'll send you a free catalog if you ask.
       
      Other medication sources would be That Fish Place (That Pet Place) and Big Al's -- both of them also on line.  I don't know what medications they have, but you could just go up to their websites to find out.  You should get Acriflavin -- either powder or in solution.  One way to get this is to purchase API Fungus Cure. It's main ingredient is Acriflavin.  It used to sold as a liquid but is now in powder form.  Drs Foster & Smith carries this too.  It has many uses, both bacterial and fungal issues, aned is good for cleaning up any superficial infections before they advance.  One thing I use it for is eye cloud caused by bacterial infections caused by Angelfish fighting each other sometimes.  Some Angels go for the other's eyes, scraping them.  Anything else I told you to get, like Oxytetracyclin (in place of Teracycline, if your pH is higher than 7.5), should be able to be obtained from the two other places I mentioned.  If not, try either Jehmco or Ken's Fish Food -- they carry lots of other fish items (just Google them).
       
      Ray
                   
       
      In a message dated 2/1/2015 12:27:23 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hey Ray
      I'm going to start gathering my fish meds war chest. The LFS has about zero in the meds department. Where is the best place to order the list of meds you emailed.

      Harry

      Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID


      "sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Hi John,
       
      Any cross-threading got beyond me.  I thought all these posts were on the same subject, even if the subject lines were different -- which I didn't notice.  I don't see you as being out of line, but perhaps it was confusing (but just not to me). 
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 2/1/2015 10:10:31 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hi Noura,

        Apologies about the mix up-there isn't another thread, I just commented on the test kits as part of this thread. Ray-hope I'm not out of line for doing this as I wasn't intending to stat a long discussion about test kits?

        John<o)))<

      On 31 January 2015 at 22:15, n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      Hi,
      I'm wondering why these two threads are mixed together?
      I'm checking from the group's homepage in my browser. I don't know if this is part of why I don't see them separate?

      Noura


      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56526 From: Harry Leverett Date: 2/1/2015
      Subject: Re: Antibiotics
      OK thanks Ray
      I forgot about Ken's fish I've bought some things from there.
      Thanks for the help and sorry about the confusion.
      Harry

      Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID


      "sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Hi Harry,
       
      Too bad about your LFS not carrying any meds.  I usually buy things I need at my LFS as they still carry a good selection.  Other than your LFS, Drs Foster & Smith has some of the ones that are most important.  I buy lots of stuff from them too.  I notice though, that lately they've discontinued stocking some of the more important meds.  
       
      They do carry API Furan II (for most external issues; fungal and gram-negative bacterial),  API Triple Sulfa (for fungus ), Seachem KanaPlex (Kanamycin Sulfate -- for internal gram-negative bacterial issues), API Erythromycin (for gram-positive bacterial hemhorrhagic Septicemia) and -- only if your pH is below pH 7.5 -- Tetracyclin (for Columnaris).  They carry other meds, but nothing else all that important.  You should call them at 1-800-443-1160 and they'll send you a free catalog if you ask.
       
      Other medication sources would be That Fish Place (That Pet Place) and Big Al's -- both of them also on line.  I don't know what medications they have, but you could just go up to their websites to find out.  You should get Acriflavin -- either powder or in solution.  One way to get this is to purchase API Fungus Cure. It's main ingredient is Acriflavin.  It used to sold as a liquid but is now in powder form.  Drs Foster & Smith carries this too.  It has many uses, both bacterial and fungal issues, aned is good for cleaning up any superficial infections before they advance.  One thing I use it for is eye cloud caused by bacterial infections caused by Angelfish fighting each other sometimes.  Some Angels go for the other's eyes, scraping them.  Anything else I told you to get, like Oxytetracyclin (in place of Teracycline, if your pH is higher than 7.5), should be able to be obtained from the two other places I mentioned.  If not, try either Jehmco or Ken's Fish Food -- they carry lots of other fish items (just Google them).
       
      Ray
                   
       
      In a message dated 2/1/2015 12:27:23 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hey Ray
      I'm going to start gathering my fish meds war chest. The LFS has about zero in the meds department. Where is the best place to order the list of meds you emailed.

      Harry

      Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID


      "sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Hi John,
       
      Any cross-threading got beyond me.  I thought all these posts were on the same subject, even if the subject lines were different -- which I didn't notice.  I don't see you as being out of line, but perhaps it was confusing (but just not to me). 
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 2/1/2015 10:10:31 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hi Noura,

        Apologies about the mix up-there isn't another thread, I just commented on the test kits as part of this thread. Ray-hope I'm not out of line for doing this as I wasn't intending to stat a long discussion about test kits?

        John<o)))<

      On 31 January 2015 at 22:15, n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      Hi,
      I'm wondering why these two threads are mixed together?
      I'm checking from the group's homepage in my browser. I don't know if this is part of why I don't see them separate?

      Noura


      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56527 From: sevenspringss Date: 2/1/2015
      Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
      AOL Email
      Hi Noura,
       
      This is more like it.  It's just too bad that the 0 ppm doesn't last longer, bit it's a big improvement.  Probably the only way to keep the ammonia from going back up to 0.25 before the following PWC is to do 4 PWC's a day, but then with this test kit, we're not even sure it is this high.  I think this is as good as it's going to get.
       
      When the Barb up-righted himself but still stayed on the bottom, swim bladder damage was one thing that came to mind at that time -- but I was (and still am) hoping for an improvement in his swimming ability as he get better.  Yes, this is a possibility, but maybe time will make an improvement.  This could be due in part to his not eating, also.  If he starts eating normally, I think there's a better chance that he'll regain his swimming abilities.  Again, it looks like only time will tell.   
      If you think you have the time, you could try making 4 PWC per day, to keep the ammonia at an absolute minimum, so that he has even less stress than he does now.  With the medications these last few days, I'd expect he should be getting over his illness very soon.  I see no other reason for him not eating if he's well, except for possible ammonia stress. 
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 2/1/2015 2:44:26 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hi Ray,

      The latest ammonia readings are:

      A bit higher than 0.25 ppm before, and a bit higher than 0 ppm after a 90% PWC.

      Maybe we’re starting to get this under control J

      The last PWC for today will be in 4 or 5 hours from now. Then 9 hours later (tomorrow morning).

      Why is the Barb always sitting in the bottom? Do you think the illness affected his air bladder?

      Thank you!

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 01 شباط, 2015 02:21 م
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

      Hi Noura,

      Okay, so at least he's familiar with these foods, as food.  All we can hope for is that he'll fell well enough to eat soon.  Yes, he just may be getting some of those food particles in him, even if just by accident.  I guess time will tell if he makes it through this completely.

      Ray

      In a message dated 2/1/2015 7:14:57 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

       

      Hi Ray,

      Surprised to see this from you that early in the morning (or late at night?).

      Yes, when he was at my mom’s, his diet consisted of flakes, occasionally freeze dried worms, and fresh lettuce.

      He’s pecking at the bottom since that’s where he’s sitting all the time. I don’t think he’s searching for food as he did it when he was really sick more often than he’s doing it now. But I’m hoping that some food particles just happen to get in him.

      His droppings could be confused for the dried worms, although they are usually thicker. So just maybe he’s eating.

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 01 شباط, 2015 10:34 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

      Good Morning Noura,

      I'd guess it's about 10:30 AM by you right now.  The results from the ammonia readings look good, even if we're not sure if the numbers are correct.  Just keep up with the 90% PWC's; that's about all you can do to keep the ammonia level down -- unless you can find that ion-exchange resin filter medium that removes ammonia.  It looks like aquarium gravel (same size granules) but is colored pure white.    

      You can reduce the Methylene Blue doses by 1/3 and it will still be effective for this purpose.  If you think you can get more at the lab, you should try it.  Too bad he's not eating yet.  I'd guess that when he was eating at your mom's place, he was eating flake food (?).  When you do the PWC's, be sure to remove the uneaten food too of course, at those times.  I know you don't have a source for live fish foods, but there would be a better chance of him eating if he were presented with something moving to entice him.  Let's hope he decides to eat soon and keep trying him on what foods you have.  Will hear from you later.

      Ray

       

      In a message dated 2/1/2015 2:44:20 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

       

      Good morning Ray,
      Sounds like the plan to do!
      This morning's readings, about 10 hours after the last PWC:
      0.50 ppm of ammonia before, and 0.25 ppm of ammonia after a 90% PWC.

      I still have enough Methylene Blue to use for 15 more huge PWCs. I hope that's enough because I couldn't find any new supply. I could try the university labs, though. I know someone who may be willing to give me some!

      I haven't seen "Silver" eating yet, there are no visible droppings either. I tried freezedried tubifex worms, and ordinary flakes (very small amounts).

      I will do 2 more PWCs today and report back.

      Thank you for your generous help!
      Noura

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56528 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 2/1/2015
      Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
      Hi Noura,

        For what it's worth I've seen plenty of Carps sat down on the  bottom of their tank/pond when they're been treated for some ailment or other, sometimes for days on end or even week & then they just get up & swim. maybe like ourselves they don't feel well so they go to bed & get up when they're better. Perhaps an unusual analogy but he could just be recuperating-what do you think?

       John<o)))<

      On 1 February 2015 at 21:11, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      Hi Noura,
       
      This is more like it.  It's just too bad that the 0 ppm doesn't last longer, bit it's a big improvement.  Probably the only way to keep the ammonia from going back up to 0.25 before the following PWC is to do 4 PWC's a day, but then with this test kit, we're not even sure it is this high.  I think this is as good as it's going to get.
       
      When the Barb up-righted himself but still stayed on the bottom, swim bladder damage was one thing that came to mind at that time -- but I was (and still am) hoping for an improvement in his swimming ability as he get better.  Yes, this is a possibility, but maybe time will make an improvement.  This could be due in part to his not eating, also.  If he starts eating normally, I think there's a better chance that he'll regain his swimming abilities.  Again, it looks like only time will tell.   
      If you think you have the time, you could try making 4 PWC per day, to keep the ammonia at an absolute minimum, so that he has even less stress than he does now.  With the medications these last few days, I'd expect he should be getting over his illness very soon.  I see no other reason for him not eating if he's well, except for possible ammonia stress. 
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 2/1/2015 2:44:26 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hi Ray,

      The latest ammonia readings are:

      A bit higher than 0.25 ppm before, and a bit higher than 0 ppm after a 90% PWC.

      Maybe we’re starting to get this under control J

      The last PWC for today will be in 4 or 5 hours from now. Then 9 hours later (tomorrow morning).

      Why is the Barb always sitting in the bottom? Do you think the illness affected his air bladder?

      Thank you!

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 01 شباط, 2015 02:21 م
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

      Hi Noura,

      Okay, so at least he's familiar with these foods, as food.  All we can hope for is that he'll fell well enough to eat soon.  Yes, he just may be getting some of those food particles in him, even if just by accident.  I guess time will tell if he makes it through this completely.

      Ray

      In a message dated 2/1/2015 7:14:57 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

       

      Hi Ray,

      Surprised to see this from you that early in the morning (or late at night?).

      Yes, when he was at my mom’s, his diet consisted of flakes, occasionally freeze dried worms, and fresh lettuce.

      He’s pecking at the bottom since that’s where he’s sitting all the time. I don’t think he’s searching for food as he did it when he was really sick more often than he’s doing it now. But I’m hoping that some food particles just happen to get in him.

      His droppings could be confused for the dried worms, although they are usually thicker. So just maybe he’s eating.

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 01 شباط, 2015 10:34 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

      Good Morning Noura,

      I'd guess it's about 10:30 AM by you right now.  The results from the ammonia readings look good, even if we're not sure if the numbers are correct.  Just keep up with the 90% PWC's; that's about all you can do to keep the ammonia level down -- unless you can find that ion-exchange resin filter medium that removes ammonia.  It looks like aquarium gravel (same size granules) but is colored pure white.    

      You can reduce the Methylene Blue doses by 1/3 and it will still be effective for this purpose.  If you think you can get more at the lab, you should try it.  Too bad he's not eating yet.  I'd guess that when he was eating at your mom's place, he was eating flake food (?).  When you do the PWC's, be sure to remove the uneaten food too of course, at those times.  I know you don't have a source for live fish foods, but there would be a better chance of him eating if he were presented with something moving to entice him.  Let's hope he decides to eat soon and keep trying him on what foods you have.  Will hear from you later.

      Ray

       

      In a message dated 2/1/2015 2:44:20 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

       

      Good morning Ray,
      Sounds like the plan to do!
      This morning's readings, about 10 hours after the last PWC:
      0.50 ppm of ammonia before, and 0.25 ppm of ammonia after a 90% PWC.

      I still have enough Methylene Blue to use for 15 more huge PWCs. I hope that's enough because I couldn't find any new supply. I could try the university labs, though. I know someone who may be willing to give me some!

      I haven't seen "Silver" eating yet, there are no visible droppings either. I tried freezedried tubifex worms, and ordinary flakes (very small amounts).

      I will do 2 more PWCs today and report back.

      Thank you for your generous help!
      Noura


      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56529 From: Noura T. Date: 2/1/2015
      Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

      Hi Ray,

      The last reading for today (1:30 a.m), 7 hours after the previous PWC:

      Before: a bit higher than 0.25 ppm

      After: a bit higher than 0 ppm

       

      I think that the “After” reading is the same as what I got from testing the tap water and the cycled Guppy tank. It doesn’t look like it will ever read any lower. Perhaps it’s practically a 0!

       

      So.. can I get by with just 3 PWCs.. Pleeeaase?!

       

      Just kidding.. But seriously, do you think that 4 PWCs are preferable? And how much would be the percentage?

       

      Thank you!

      Noura

       

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 01 شباط, 2015 11:11 م
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

       

      Hi Noura,

       

      This is more like it.  It's just too bad that the 0 ppm doesn't last longer, bit it's a big improvement.  Probably the only way to keep the ammonia from going back up to 0.25 before the following PWC is to do 4 PWC's a day, but then with this test kit, we're not even sure it is this high.  I think this is as good as it's going to get.

       

      When the Barb up-righted himself but still stayed on the bottom, swim bladder damage was one thing that came to mind at that time -- but I was (and still am) hoping for an improvement in his swimming ability as he get better.  Yes, this is a possibility, but maybe time will make an improvement.  This could be due in part to his not eating, also.  If he starts eating normally, I think there's a better chance that he'll regain his swimming abilities.  Again, it looks like only time will tell.   

      If you think you have the time, you could try making 4 PWC per day, to keep the ammonia at an absolute minimum, so that he has even less stress than he does now.  With the medications these last few days, I'd expect he should be getting over his illness very soon.  I see no other reason for him not eating if he's well, except for possible ammonia stress. 

       

      Ray

       

       

      In a message dated 2/1/2015 2:44:26 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

       

      Hi Ray,

      The latest ammonia readings are:

      A bit higher than 0.25 ppm before, and a bit higher than 0 ppm after a 90% PWC.

      Maybe we’re starting to get this under control J

      The last PWC for today will be in 4 or 5 hours from now. Then 9 hours later (tomorrow morning).

      Why is the Barb always sitting in the bottom? Do you think the illness affected his air bladder?

      Thank you!

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 01 شباط, 2015 02:21 م
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

      Hi Noura,

      Okay, so at least he's familiar with these foods, as food.  All we can hope for is that he'll fell well enough to eat soon.  Yes, he just may be getting some of those food particles in him, even if just by accident.  I guess time will tell if he makes it through this completely.

      Ray

      In a message dated 2/1/2015 7:14:57 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

       

      Hi Ray,

      Surprised to see this from you that early in the morning (or late at night?).

      Yes, when he was at my mom’s, his diet consisted of flakes, occasionally freeze dried worms, and fresh lettuce.

      He’s pecking at the bottom since that’s where he’s sitting all the time. I don’t think he’s searching for food as he did it when he was really sick more often than he’s doing it now. But I’m hoping that some food particles just happen to get in him.

      His droppings could be confused for the dried worms, although they are usually thicker. So just maybe he’s eating.

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 01 شباط, 2015 10:34 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

      Good Morning Noura,

      I'd guess it's about 10:30 AM by you right now.  The results from the ammonia readings look good, even if we're not sure if the numbers are correct.  Just keep up with the 90% PWC's; that's about all you can do to keep the ammonia level down -- unless you can find that ion-exchange resin filter medium that removes ammonia.  It looks like aquarium gravel (same size granules) but is colored pure white.    

      You can reduce the Methylene Blue doses by 1/3 and it will still be effective for this purpose.  If you think you can get more at the lab, you should try it.  Too bad he's not eating yet.  I'd guess that when he was eating at your mom's place, he was eating flake food (?).  When you do the PWC's, be sure to remove the uneaten food too of course, at those times.  I know you don't have a source for live fish foods, but there would be a better chance of him eating if he were presented with something moving to entice him.  Let's hope he decides to eat soon and keep trying him on what foods you have.  Will hear from you later.

      Ray

       

      In a message dated 2/1/2015 2:44:20 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

       

      Good morning Ray,
      Sounds like the plan to do!
      This morning's readings, about 10 hours after the last PWC:
      0.50 ppm of ammonia before, and 0.25 ppm of ammonia after a 90% PWC.

      I still have enough Methylene Blue to use for 15 more huge PWCs. I hope that's enough because I couldn't find any new supply. I could try the university labs, though. I know someone who may be willing to give me some!

      I haven't seen "Silver" eating yet, there are no visible droppings either. I tried freezedried tubifex worms, and ordinary flakes (very small amounts).

      I will do 2 more PWCs today and report back.

      Thank you for your generous help!
      Noura

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56530 From: Noura T. Date: 2/1/2015
      Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

      I’m a bit relieved to know that, John. I hope this is the case with “Silver”!

       

      Noura

       

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 01 شباط, 2015 11:50 م
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

       

      Hi Noura,

        For what it's worth I've seen plenty of Carps sat down on the  bottom of their tank/pond when they're been treated for some ailment or other, sometimes for days on end or even week & then they just get up & swim. maybe like ourselves they don't feel well so they go to bed & get up when they're better. Perhaps an unusual analogy but he could just be recuperating-what do you think?

       John<o)))<

       

      On 1 February 2015 at 21:11, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Hi Noura,

       

      This is more like it.  It's just too bad that the 0 ppm doesn't last longer, bit it's a big improvement.  Probably the only way to keep the ammonia from going back up to 0.25 before the following PWC is to do 4 PWC's a day, but then with this test kit, we're not even sure it is this high.  I think this is as good as it's going to get.

       

      When the Barb up-righted himself but still stayed on the bottom, swim bladder damage was one thing that came to mind at that time -- but I was (and still am) hoping for an improvement in his swimming ability as he get better.  Yes, this is a possibility, but maybe time will make an improvement.  This could be due in part to his not eating, also.  If he starts eating normally, I think there's a better chance that he'll regain his swimming abilities.  Again, it looks like only time will tell.   

      If you think you have the time, you could try making 4 PWC per day, to keep the ammonia at an absolute minimum, so that he has even less stress than he does now.  With the medications these last few days, I'd expect he should be getting over his illness very soon.  I see no other reason for him not eating if he's well, except for possible ammonia stress. 

       

      Ray

       

       

      In a message dated 2/1/2015 2:44:26 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

       

      Hi Ray,

      The latest ammonia readings are:

      A bit higher than 0.25 ppm before, and a bit higher than 0 ppm after a 90% PWC.

      Maybe we’re starting to get this under control J

      The last PWC for today will be in 4 or 5 hours from now. Then 9 hours later (tomorrow morning).

      Why is the Barb always sitting in the bottom? Do you think the illness affected his air bladder?

      Thank you!

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 01 شباط, 2015 02:21 م
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

      Hi Noura,

      Okay, so at least he's familiar with these foods, as food.  All we can hope for is that he'll fell well enough to eat soon.  Yes, he just may be getting some of those food particles in him, even if just by accident.  I guess time will tell if he makes it through this completely.

      Ray

      In a message dated 2/1/2015 7:14:57 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

       

      Hi Ray,

      Surprised to see this from you that early in the morning (or late at night?).

      Yes, when he was at my mom’s, his diet consisted of flakes, occasionally freeze dried worms, and fresh lettuce.

      He’s pecking at the bottom since that’s where he’s sitting all the time. I don’t think he’s searching for food as he did it when he was really sick more often than he’s doing it now. But I’m hoping that some food particles just happen to get in him.

      His droppings could be confused for the dried worms, although they are usually thicker. So just maybe he’s eating.

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 01 شباط, 2015 10:34 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

      Good Morning Noura,

      I'd guess it's about 10:30 AM by you right now.  The results from the ammonia readings look good, even if we're not sure if the numbers are correct.  Just keep up with the 90% PWC's; that's about all you can do to keep the ammonia level down -- unless you can find that ion-exchange resin filter medium that removes ammonia.  It looks like aquarium gravel (same size granules) but is colored pure white.    

      You can reduce the Methylene Blue doses by 1/3 and it will still be effective for this purpose.  If you think you can get more at the lab, you should try it.  Too bad he's not eating yet.  I'd guess that when he was eating at your mom's place, he was eating flake food (?).  When you do the PWC's, be sure to remove the uneaten food too of course, at those times.  I know you don't have a source for live fish foods, but there would be a better chance of him eating if he were presented with something moving to entice him.  Let's hope he decides to eat soon and keep trying him on what foods you have.  Will hear from you later.

      Ray

       

      In a message dated 2/1/2015 2:44:20 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

       

      Good morning Ray,
      Sounds like the plan to do!
      This morning's readings, about 10 hours after the last PWC:
      0.50 ppm of ammonia before, and 0.25 ppm of ammonia after a 90% PWC.

      I still have enough Methylene Blue to use for 15 more huge PWCs. I hope that's enough because I couldn't find any new supply. I could try the university labs, though. I know someone who may be willing to give me some!

      I haven't seen "Silver" eating yet, there are no visible droppings either. I tried freezedried tubifex worms, and ordinary flakes (very small amounts).

      I will do 2 more PWCs today and report back.

      Thank you for your generous help!
      Noura

       

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56531 From: Kevin Boyle Date: 2/1/2015
      Subject: Re: Antibiotics
      http://www.nationalfishpharm.com/

      these guys carry almost everything, they give out advice that is almost always right on the money.

      On 2/1/2015 3:44 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] wrote:
       

      Hi Harry,
       
      Too bad about your LFS not carrying any meds.  I usually buy things I need at my LFS as they still carry a good selection.  Other than your LFS, Drs Foster & Smith has some of the ones that are most important.  I buy lots of stuff from them too.  I notice though, that lately they've discontinued stocking some of the more important meds.  
       
      They do carry API Furan II (for most external issues; fungal and gram-negative bacterial),  API Triple Sulfa (for fungus ), Seachem KanaPlex (Kanamycin Sulfate -- for internal gram-negative bacterial issues), API Erythromycin (for gram-positive bacterial hemhorrhagic Septicemia) and -- only if your pH is below pH 7.5 -- Tetracyclin (for Columnaris).  They carry other meds, but nothing else all that important.  You should call them at 1-800-443-1160 and they'll send you a free catalog if you ask.
       
      Other medication sources would be That Fish Place (That Pet Place) and Big Al's -- both of them also on line.  I don't know what medications they have, but you could just go up to their websites to find out.  You should get Acriflavin -- either powder or in solution.  One way to get this is to purchase API Fungus Cure. It's main ingredient is Acriflavin.  It used to sold as a liquid but is now in powder form.  Drs Foster & Smith carries this too.  It has many uses, both bacterial and fungal issues, aned is good for cleaning up any superficial infections before they advance.  One thing I use it for is eye cloud caused by bacterial infections caused by Angelfish fighting each other sometimes.  Some Angels go for the other's eyes, scraping them.  Anything else I told you to get, like Oxytetracyclin (in place of Teracycline, if your pH is higher than 7.5), should be able to be obtained from the two other places I mentioned.  If not, try either Jehmco or Ken's Fish Food -- they carry lots of other fish items (just Google them).
       
      Ray
                   
       
      In a message dated 2/1/2015 12:27:23 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hey Ray
      I'm going to start gathering my fish meds war chest. The LFS has about zero in the meds department. Where is the best place to order the list of meds you emailed.

      Harry

      Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID


      "sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Hi John,
       
      Any cross-threading got beyond me.  I thought all these posts were on the same subject, even if the subject lines were different -- which I didn't notice.  I don't see you as being out of line, but perhaps it was confusing (but just not to me). 
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 2/1/2015 10:10:31 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hi Noura,

        Apologies about the mix up-there isn't another thread, I just commented on the test kits as part of this thread. Ray-hope I'm not out of line for doing this as I wasn't intending to stat a long discussion about test kits?

        John<o)))<

      On 31 January 2015 at 22:15, n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      Hi,
      I'm wondering why these two threads are mixed together?
      I'm checking from the group's homepage in my browser. I don't know if this is part of why I don't see them separate?

      Noura



      -- 
      "Never use a big word when a monosyllabic diminutive will suffice."
      
      
      If it turns out that we really are alone in the universe, doesn't it seem like an awful waste of space?"
      
      
      Stupidity is a lot like nuclear power; it can be used for good or evil but either way you wouldn't want to get any on you>"
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56532 From: Harry Leverett Date: 2/1/2015
      Subject: Re: Antibiotics
      Thanks Kevin, I'll check them out , and thank you Ray for the Jehmco  tip that's my new favorite place.
      Harry

      Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID


      "Kevin Boyle synoscats@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      http://www.nationalfishpharm.com/

      these guys carry almost everything, they give out advice that is almost always right on the money.

      On 2/1/2015 3:44 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] wrote:
       

      Hi Harry,
       
      Too bad about your LFS not carrying any meds.  I usually buy things I need at my LFS as they still carry a good selection.  Other than your LFS, Drs Foster & Smith has some of the ones that are most important.  I buy lots of stuff from them too.  I notice though, that lately they've discontinued stocking some of the more important meds.  
       
      They do carry API Furan II (for most external issues; fungal and gram-negative bacterial),  API Triple Sulfa (for fungus ), Seachem KanaPlex (Kanamycin Sulfate -- for internal gram-negative bacterial issues), API Erythromycin (for gram-positive bacterial hemhorrhagic Septicemia) and -- only if your pH is below pH 7.5 -- Tetracyclin (for Columnaris).  They carry other meds, but nothing else all that important.  You should call them at 1-800-443-1160 and they'll send you a free catalog if you ask.
       
      Other medication sources would be That Fish Place (That Pet Place) and Big Al's -- both of them also on line.  I don't know what medications they have, but you could just go up to their websites to find out.  You should get Acriflavin -- either powder or in solution.  One way to get this is to purchase API Fungus Cure. It's main ingredient is Acriflavin.  It used to sold as a liquid but is now in powder form.  Drs Foster & Smith carries this too.  It has many uses, both bacterial and fungal issues, aned is good for cleaning up any superficial infections before they advance.  One thing I use it for is eye cloud caused by bacterial infections caused by Angelfish fighting each other sometimes.  Some Angels go for the other's eyes, scraping them.  Anything else I told you to get, like Oxytetracyclin (in place of Teracycline, if your pH is higher than 7.5), should be able to be obtained from the two other places I mentioned.  If not, try either Jehmco or Ken's Fish Food -- they carry lots of other fish items (just Google them).
       
      Ray
                   
       
      In a message dated 2/1/2015 12:27:23 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hey Ray
      I'm going to start gathering my fish meds war chest. The LFS has about zero in the meds department. Where is the best place to order the list of meds you emailed.

      Harry

      Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID


      "sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Hi John,
       
      Any cross-threading got beyond me.  I thought all these posts were on the same subject, even if the subject lines were different -- which I didn't notice.  I don't see you as being out of line, but perhaps it was confusing (but just not to me). 
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 2/1/2015 10:10:31 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hi Noura,

        Apologies about the mix up-there isn't another thread, I just commented on the test kits as part of this thread. Ray-hope I'm not out of line for doing this as I wasn't intending to stat a long discussion about test kits?

        John<o)))<

      On 31 January 2015 at 22:15, n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      Hi,
      I'm wondering why these two threads are mixed together?
      I'm checking from the group's homepage in my browser. I don't know if this is part of why I don't see them separate?

      Noura



      -- 
      "Never use a big word when a monosyllabic diminutive will suffice."
      
      
      If it turns out that we really are alone in the universe, doesn't it seem like an awful waste of space?"
      
      
      Stupidity is a lot like nuclear power; it can be used for good or evil but either way you wouldn't want to get any on you>"
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56533 From: sevenspringss Date: 2/1/2015
      Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
      AOL Email
      John,
       
      That's good to know, especially since Barbs and Goldfish are both part of the Carp (Cyprinidae) Family.  I'm not use to seeing that as I no longer keep Goldfish.
       
      Ray
       
      In a message dated 2/1/2015 4:50:14 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hi Noura,

        For what it's worth I've seen plenty of Carps sat down on the  bottom of their tank/pond when they're been treated for some ailment or other, sometimes for days on end or even week & then they just get up & swim. maybe like ourselves they don't feel well so they go to bed & get up when they're better. Perhaps an unusual analogy but he could just be recuperating-what do you think?

       John<o)))<

      On 1 February 2015 at 21:11, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      Hi Noura,
       
      This is more like it.  It's just too bad that the 0 ppm doesn't last longer, bit it's a big improvement.  Probably the only way to keep the ammonia from going back up to 0.25 before the following PWC is to do 4 PWC's a day, but then with this test kit, we're not even sure it is this high.  I think this is as good as it's going to get.
       
      When the Barb up-righted himself but still stayed on the bottom, swim bladder damage was one thing that came to mind at that time -- but I was (and still am) hoping for an improvement in his swimming ability as he get better.  Yes, this is a possibility, but maybe time will make an improvement.  This could be due in part to his not eating, also.  If he starts eating normally, I think there's a better chance that he'll regain his swimming abilities.  Again, it looks like only time will tell.   
      If you think you have the time, you could try making 4 PWC per day, to keep the ammonia at an absolute minimum, so that he has even less stress than he does now.  With the medications these last few days, I'd expect he should be getting over his illness very soon.  I see no other reason for him not eating if he's well, except for possible ammonia stress. 
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 2/1/2015 2:44:26 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hi Ray,

      The latest ammonia readings are:

      A bit higher than 0.25 ppm before, and a bit higher than 0 ppm after a 90% PWC.

      Maybe we’re starting to get this under control J

      The last PWC for today will be in 4 or 5 hours from now. Then 9 hours later (tomorrow morning).

      Why is the Barb always sitting in the bottom? Do you think the illness affected his air bladder?

      Thank you!

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 01 شباط, 2015 02:21 م
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

      Hi Noura,

      Okay, so at least he's familiar with these foods, as food.  All we can hope for is that he'll fell well enough to eat soon.  Yes, he just may be getting some of those food particles in him, even if just by accident.  I guess time will tell if he makes it through this completely.

      Ray

      In a message dated 2/1/2015 7:14:57 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

       

      Hi Ray,

      Surprised to see this from you that early in the morning (or late at night?).

      Yes, when he was at my mom’s, his diet consisted of flakes, occasionally freeze dried worms, and fresh lettuce.

      He’s pecking at the bottom since that’s where he’s sitting all the time. I don’t think he’s searching for food as he did it when he was really sick more often than he’s doing it now. But I’m hoping that some food particles just happen to get in him.

      His droppings could be confused for the dried worms, although they are usually thicker. So just maybe he’s eating.

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 01 شباط, 2015 10:34 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

      Good Morning Noura,

      I'd guess it's about 10:30 AM by you right now.  The results from the ammonia readings look good, even if we're not sure if the numbers are correct.  Just keep up with the 90% PWC's; that's about all you can do to keep the ammonia level down -- unless you can find that ion-exchange resin filter medium that removes ammonia.  It looks like aquarium gravel (same size granules) but is colored pure white.    

      You can reduce the Methylene Blue doses by 1/3 and it will still be effective for this purpose.  If you think you can get more at the lab, you should try it.  Too bad he's not eating yet.  I'd guess that when he was eating at your mom's place, he was eating flake food (?).  When you do the PWC's, be sure to remove the uneaten food too of course, at those times.  I know you don't have a source for live fish foods, but there would be a better chance of him eating if he were presented with something moving to entice him.  Let's hope he decides to eat soon and keep trying him on what foods you have.  Will hear from you later.

      Ray

       

      In a message dated 2/1/2015 2:44:20 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

       

      Good morning Ray,
      Sounds like the plan to do!
      This morning's readings, about 10 hours after the last PWC:
      0.50 ppm of ammonia before, and 0.25 ppm of ammonia after a 90% PWC.

      I still have enough Methylene Blue to use for 15 more huge PWCs. I hope that's enough because I couldn't find any new supply. I could try the university labs, though. I know someone who may be willing to give me some!

      I haven't seen "Silver" eating yet, there are no visible droppings either. I tried freezedried tubifex worms, and ordinary flakes (very small amounts).

      I will do 2 more PWCs today and report back.

      Thank you for your generous help!
      Noura


      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56534 From: sevenspringss Date: 2/1/2015
      Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
      AOL Email
      Hi Noura,
       
      This looks to be about the same results (both before and after) as your previous PWC.  As the slightly higher than zero amount is the same reading as you got from your tap water, you wouldn't get a zero reading even if you changed 100% of the tank water.  Unless your tap water actually has a slight amount of ammonia in it, this tends to show that the test results are off a bit, as indicating ammonia when there's no ammonia there -- although we don't know that.  So, not being able to know that, the 4 PWC's are just a guess/suggestion that you might want to try to see if the ammonia is below 0.25 ppm before the next PWC.  If you want to try it, I'd suggest the same amount -- 90% -- to get the level down as close to zero as you can after the water changes, just like before.  It wouldn't be practical to change a smaller percentage since that would not result in any more water being changed at the end of the day, but again, I can't say if this would be any improvement.  It remains to be seen. 
       
      One factor we need to realize is that this one fish in this 2 gallon tank constitutes a fully stocked tank for its small water volume.  It would be much easier if the tank were larger but this is all you have to work with.  Just have to make the best of things with what you have.  As you're the one that has to do all the work, I'll leave it up to you to see if it makes any improvement.
       
      Ray
        
       
      In a message dated 2/1/2015 7:20:42 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hi Ray,

      The last reading for today (1:30 a.m), 7 hours after the previous PWC:

      Before: a bit higher than 0.25 ppm

      After: a bit higher than 0 ppm

      I think that the “After” reading is the same as what I got from testing the tap water and the cycled Guppy tank. It doesn’t look like it will ever read any lower. Perhaps it’s practically a 0!

      So.. can I get by with just 3 PWCs.. Pleeeaase?!

      Just kidding.. But seriously, do you think that 4 PWCs are preferable? And how much would be the percentage?

      Thank you!

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 01 شباط, 2015 11:11 م
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

      Hi Noura,

      This is more like it.  It's just too bad that the 0 ppm doesn't last longer, bit it's a big improvement.  Probably the only way to keep the ammonia from going back up to 0.25 before the following PWC is to do 4 PWC's a day, but then with this test kit, we're not even sure it is this high.  I think this is as good as it's going to get.

      When the Barb up-righted himself but still stayed on the bottom, swim bladder damage was one thing that came to mind at that time -- but I was (and still am) hoping for an improvement in his swimming ability as he get better.  Yes, this is a possibility, but maybe time will make an improvement.  This could be due in part to his not eating, also.  If he starts eating normally, I think there's a better chance that he'll regain his swimming abilities.  Again, it looks like only time will tell.   

      If you think you have the time, you could try making 4 PWC per day, to keep the ammonia at an absolute minimum, so that he has even less stress than he does now.  With the medications these last few days, I'd expect he should be getting over his illness very soon.  I see no other reason for him not eating if he's well, except for possible ammonia stress. 

      Ray

      In a message dated 2/1/2015 2:44:26 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

       

      Hi Ray,

      The latest ammonia readings are:

      A bit higher than 0.25 ppm before, and a bit higher than 0 ppm after a 90% PWC.

      Maybe we’re starting to get this under control J

      The last PWC for today will be in 4 or 5 hours from now. Then 9 hours later (tomorrow morning).

      Why is the Barb always sitting in the bottom? Do you think the illness affected his air bladder?

      Thank you!

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 01 شباط, 2015 02:21 م
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

      Hi Noura,

      Okay, so at least he's familiar with these foods, as food.  All we can hope for is that he'll fell well enough to eat soon.  Yes, he just may be getting some of those food particles in him, even if just by accident.  I guess time will tell if he makes it through this completely.

      Ray

      In a message dated 2/1/2015 7:14:57 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

       

      Hi Ray,

      Surprised to see this from you that early in the morning (or late at night?).

      Yes, when he was at my mom’s, his diet consisted of flakes, occasionally freeze dried worms, and fresh lettuce.

      He’s pecking at the bottom since that’s where he’s sitting all the time. I don’t think he’s searching for food as he did it when he was really sick more often than he’s doing it now. But I’m hoping that some food particles just happen to get in him.

      His droppings could be confused for the dried worms, although they are usually thicker. So just maybe he’s eating.

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 01 شباط, 2015 10:34 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

      Good Morning Noura,

      I'd guess it's about 10:30 AM by you right now.  The results from the ammonia readings look good, even if we're not sure if the numbers are correct.  Just keep up with the 90% PWC's; that's about all you can do to keep the ammonia level down -- unless you can find that ion-exchange resin filter medium that removes ammonia.  It looks like aquarium gravel (same size granules) but is colored pure white.    

      You can reduce the Methylene Blue doses by 1/3 and it will still be effective for this purpose.  If you think you can get more at the lab, you should try it.  Too bad he's not eating yet.  I'd guess that when he was eating at your mom's place, he was eating flake food (?).  When you do the PWC's, be sure to remove the uneaten food too of course, at those times.  I know you don't have a source for live fish foods, but there would be a better chance of him eating if he were presented with something moving to entice him.  Let's hope he decides to eat soon and keep trying him on what foods you have.  Will hear from you later.

      Ray

       

      In a message dated 2/1/2015 2:44:20 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

       

      Good morning Ray,
      Sounds like the plan to do!
      This morning's readings, about 10 hours after the last PWC:
      0.50 ppm of ammonia before, and 0.25 ppm of ammonia after a 90% PWC.

      I still have enough Methylene Blue to use for 15 more huge PWCs. I hope that's enough because I couldn't find any new supply. I could try the university labs, though. I know someone who may be willing to give me some!

      I haven't seen "Silver" eating yet, there are no visible droppings either. I tried freezedried tubifex worms, and ordinary flakes (very small amounts).

      I will do 2 more PWCs today and report back.

      Thank you for your generous help!
      Noura

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56535 From: sevenspringss Date: 2/1/2015
      Subject: Re: Antibiotics
      AOL Email
      Hi Harry,
       
      That NationalFishPharm site that Kevin advised you of looks very helpful.  While I didn't explore it completely, what I did go up to looked right on the money although somewhat dated -- only because some of the medications, like Paracide, are no longer available.  I also notice that in some situations, the same medication -- like Oxytetracycline -- is recommended for numerous bacterial issues when some of the ailments it's suggested for could have more effective meds used against them.  I did mention Oxytetracycline for you as one medication to have on hand, but even that one has its limitations.  I say that only because this med is one that may be effectively used against Columnaris, although there are many reports that it's not always successful in treating this disorder, but then that's not my observations, but just taking all reports into consideration for the best possible route to use.  Likewise, I notice that the sulfa drugs are recommended for Columnaris (flexibacteria) also, which again are reported not to be 100% effective all the time.  The medication of choice for this disease would be Furan II, which always works in combating this pathogen.  While this site is still quite beneficial, perhaps the fact that much of the info appears to be somewhat outdated explains why the newer medications aren't mentioned.  While this site might be better to take with a grain of salt, it still looks very informative.
       
      I'm glad to see you found Jehmco to be a good source for your needs.  John (Maier) at Jehmco has always been helpful to me.  Besides, he carries stuff I don't see available at any other place.  As he's local to me (in New Jersey), even though not in the same county, I've come to know him to some extent and find that he's very forthright and honest in his dealings.  He's out to help the hobbyist all the time and is not about to steer you wrong just to make a sale.  You can't go wrong there.
       
      Ray
        
       
      In a message dated 2/1/2015 11:21:17 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Thanks Kevin, I'll check them out , and thank you Ray for the Jehmco  tip that's my new favorite place.
      Harry

      Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID


      "Kevin Boyle synoscats@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      http://www.nationalfishpharm.com/

      these guys carry almost everything, they give out advice that is almost always right on the money.

      On 2/1/2015 3:44 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] wrote:
       

      Hi Harry,
       
      Too bad about your LFS not carrying any meds.  I usually buy things I need at my LFS as they still carry a good selection.  Other than your LFS, Drs Foster & Smith has some of the ones that are most important.  I buy lots of stuff from them too.  I notice though, that lately they've discontinued stocking some of the more important meds.  
       
      They do carry API Furan II (for most external issues; fungal and gram-negative bacterial),  API Triple Sulfa (for fungus ), Seachem KanaPlex (Kanamycin Sulfate -- for internal gram-negative bacterial issues), API Erythromycin (for gram-positive bacterial hemhorrhagic Septicemia) and -- only if your pH is below pH 7.5 -- Tetracyclin (for Columnaris).  They carry other meds, but nothing else all that important.  You should call them at 1-800-443-1160 and they'll send you a free catalog if you ask.
       
      Other medication sources would be That Fish Place (That Pet Place) and Big Al's -- both of them also on line.  I don't know what medications they have, but you could just go up to their websites to find out.  You should get Acriflavin -- either powder or in solution.  One way to get this is to purchase API Fungus Cure. It's main ingredient is Acriflavin.  It used to sold as a liquid but is now in powder form.  Drs Foster & Smith carries this too.  It has many uses, both bacterial and fungal issues, aned is good for cleaning up any superficial infections before they advance.  One thing I use it for is eye cloud caused by bacterial infections caused by Angelfish fighting each other sometimes.  Some Angels go for the other's eyes, scraping them.  Anything else I told you to get, like Oxytetracyclin (in place of Teracycline, if your pH is higher than 7.5), should be able to be obtained from the two other places I mentioned.  If not, try either Jehmco or Ken's Fish Food -- they carry lots of other fish items (just Google them).
       
      Ray
                   
       
      In a message dated 2/1/2015 12:27:23 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hey Ray
      I'm going to start gathering my fish meds war chest. The LFS has about zero in the meds department. Where is the best place to order the list of meds you emailed.

      Harry

      Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID


      "sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Hi John,
       
      Any cross-threading got beyond me.  I thought all these posts were on the same subject, even if the subject lines were different -- which I didn't notice.  I don't see you as being out of line, but perhaps it was confusing (but just not to me). 
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 2/1/2015 10:10:31 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hi Noura,

        Apologies about the mix up-there isn't another thread, I just commented on the test kits as part of this thread. Ray-hope I'm not out of line for doing this as I wasn't intending to stat a long discussion about test kits?

        John<o)))<

      On 31 January 2015 at 22:15, n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      Hi,
      I'm wondering why these two threads are mixed together?
      I'm checking from the group's homepage in my browser. I don't know if this is part of why I don't see them separate?

      Noura



      -- 
      "Never use a big word when a monosyllabic diminutive will suffice."
      
      
      If it turns out that we really are alone in the universe, doesn't it seem like an awful waste of space?"
      
      
      Stupidity is a lot like nuclear power; it can be used for good or evil but either way you wouldn't want to get any on you>"

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56536 From: Noura T. Date: 2/2/2015
      Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

      Hi Ray,

      The Barb went lying on his side right after the last PWC 2 hours ago. And he’s still like that.

      Test results are the same as last time.

      I matched the temperature for the added water and added the 3 medications, so not sure what’s wrong. He seemed okay before the change L

       

      Noura

       

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 02 شباط, 2015 08:28 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

       

      Hi Noura,

       

      This looks to be about the same results (both before and after) as your previous PWC.  As the slightly higher than zero amount is the same reading as you got from your tap water, you wouldn't get a zero reading even if you changed 100% of the tank water.  Unless your tap water actually has a slight amount of ammonia in it, this tends to show that the test results are off a bit, as indicating ammonia when there's no ammonia there -- although we don't know that.  So, not being able to know that, the 4 PWC's are just a guess/suggestion that you might want to try to see if the ammonia is below 0.25 ppm before the next PWC.  If you want to try it, I'd suggest the same amount -- 90% -- to get the level down as close to zero as you can after the water changes, just like before.  It wouldn't be practical to change a smaller percentage since that would not result in any more water being changed at the end of the day, but again, I can't say if this would be any improvement.  It remains to be seen. 

       

      One factor we need to realize is that this one fish in this 2 gallon tank constitutes a fully stocked tank for its small water volume.  It would be much easier if the tank were larger but this is all you have to work with.  Just have to make the best of things with what you have.  As you're the one that has to do all the work, I'll leave it up to you to see if it makes any improvement.

       

      Ray

        

       

      In a message dated 2/1/2015 7:20:42 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

       

      Hi Ray,

      The last reading for today (1:30 a.m), 7 hours after the previous PWC:

      Before: a bit higher than 0.25 ppm

      After: a bit higher than 0 ppm

      I think that the “After” reading is the same as what I got from testing the tap water and the cycled Guppy tank. It doesn’t look like it will ever read any lower. Perhaps it’s practically a 0!

      So.. can I get by with just 3 PWCs.. Pleeeaase?!

      Just kidding.. But seriously, do you think that 4 PWCs are preferable? And how much would be the percentage?

      Thank you!

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 01 شباط, 2015 11:11 م
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

      Hi Noura,

      This is more like it.  It's just too bad that the 0 ppm doesn't last longer, bit it's a big improvement.  Probably the only way to keep the ammonia from going back up to 0.25 before the following PWC is to do 4 PWC's a day, but then with this test kit, we're not even sure it is this high.  I think this is as good as it's going to get.

      When the Barb up-righted himself but still stayed on the bottom, swim bladder damage was one thing that came to mind at that time -- but I was (and still am) hoping for an improvement in his swimming ability as he get better.  Yes, this is a possibility, but maybe time will make an improvement.  This could be due in part to his not eating, also.  If he starts eating normally, I think there's a better chance that he'll regain his swimming abilities.  Again, it looks like only time will tell.   

      If you think you have the time, you could try making 4 PWC per day, to keep the ammonia at an absolute minimum, so that he has even less stress than he does now.  With the medications these last few days, I'd expect he should be getting over his illness very soon.  I see no other reason for him not eating if he's well, except for possible ammonia stress. 

      Ray

      In a message dated 2/1/2015 2:44:26 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

       

      Hi Ray,

      The latest ammonia readings are:

      A bit higher than 0.25 ppm before, and a bit higher than 0 ppm after a 90% PWC.

      Maybe we’re starting to get this under control J

      The last PWC for today will be in 4 or 5 hours from now. Then 9 hours later (tomorrow morning).

      Why is the Barb always sitting in the bottom? Do you think the illness affected his air bladder?

      Thank you!

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 01 شباط, 2015 02:21 م
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

      Hi Noura,

      Okay, so at least he's familiar with these foods, as food.  All we can hope for is that he'll fell well enough to eat soon.  Yes, he just may be getting some of those food particles in him, even if just by accident.  I guess time will tell if he makes it through this completely.

      Ray

      In a message dated 2/1/2015 7:14:57 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

       

      Hi Ray,

      Surprised to see this from you that early in the morning (or late at night?).

      Yes, when he was at my mom’s, his diet consisted of flakes, occasionally freeze dried worms, and fresh lettuce.

      He’s pecking at the bottom since that’s where he’s sitting all the time. I don’t think he’s searching for food as he did it when he was really sick more often than he’s doing it now. But I’m hoping that some food particles just happen to get in him.

      His droppings could be confused for the dried worms, although they are usually thicker. So just maybe he’s eating.

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 01 شباط, 2015 10:34 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

      Good Morning Noura,

      I'd guess it's about 10:30 AM by you right now.  The results from the ammonia readings look good, even if we're not sure if the numbers are correct.  Just keep up with the 90% PWC's; that's about all you can do to keep the ammonia level down -- unless you can find that ion-exchange resin filter medium that removes ammonia.  It looks like aquarium gravel (same size granules) but is colored pure white.    

      You can reduce the Methylene Blue doses by 1/3 and it will still be effective for this purpose.  If you think you can get more at the lab, you should try it.  Too bad he's not eating yet.  I'd guess that when he was eating at your mom's place, he was eating flake food (?).  When you do the PWC's, be sure to remove the uneaten food too of course, at those times.  I know you don't have a source for live fish foods, but there would be a better chance of him eating if he were presented with something moving to entice him.  Let's hope he decides to eat soon and keep trying him on what foods you have.  Will hear from you later.

      Ray

       

      In a message dated 2/1/2015 2:44:20 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

       

      Good morning Ray,
      Sounds like the plan to do!
      This morning's readings, about 10 hours after the last PWC:
      0.50 ppm of ammonia before, and 0.25 ppm of ammonia after a 90% PWC.

      I still have enough Methylene Blue to use for 15 more huge PWCs. I hope that's enough because I couldn't find any new supply. I could try the university labs, though. I know someone who may be willing to give me some!

      I haven't seen "Silver" eating yet, there are no visible droppings either. I tried freezedried tubifex worms, and ordinary flakes (very small amounts).

      I will do 2 more PWCs today and report back.

      Thank you for your generous help!
      Noura

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56537 From: Noura T. Date: 2/2/2015
      Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

      He’s gone L

      Unbelievable…

       

      I’m sure it has to do with the last PWC about 3 hours ago. But I can’t think of the direct reason, I did everything exactly the same way as before.

      The only difference is that I prepared the Erythormycin solution last night and kept it in the fridge. It can’t be this.

       

      Noura L

       

       

      From: Noura T. [mailto:n-ocean@...]
      Sent: 02 شباط, 2015 12:46 م
      To: 'AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com'
      Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

      Hi Ray,

      The Barb went lying on his side right after the last PWC 2 hours ago. And he’s still like that.

      Test results are the same as last time.

      I matched the temperature for the added water and added the 3 medications, so not sure what’s wrong. He seemed okay before the change L

       

      Noura

       

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 02 شباط, 2015 08:28 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

       

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56538 From: Harry Leverett Date: 2/2/2015
      Subject: Re: Antibiotics
      Ray, I just got off the phone with a very helpful lady at Jehmco. Thanks for the tip about them , she went out of her way to help me !

      Thanks again
      Harry
      On Feb 2, 2015, at 1:21 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


      Hi Harry,
       
      That NationalFishPharm site that Kevin advised you of looks very helpful.  While I didn't explore it completely, what I did go up to looked right on the money although somewhat dated -- only because some of the medications, like Paracide, are no longer available.  I also notice that in some situations, the same medication -- like Oxytetracycline -- is recommended for numerous bacterial issues when some of the ailments it's suggested for could have more effective meds used against them.  I did mention Oxytetracycline for you as one medication to have on hand, but even that one has its limitations.  I say that only because this med is one that may be effectively used against Columnaris, although there are many reports that it's not always successful in treating this disorder, but then that's not my observations, but just taking all reports into consideration for the best possible route to use.  Likewise, I notice that the sulfa drugs are recommended for Columnaris (flexibacteria) also, which again are reported not to be 100% effective all the time.  The medication of choice for this disease would be Furan II, which always works in combating this pathogen.  While this site is still quite beneficial, perhaps the fact that much of the info appears to be somewhat outdated explains why the newer medications aren't mentioned.  While this site might be better to take with a grain of salt, it still looks very informative.
       
      I'm glad to see you found Jehmco to be a good source for your needs.  John (Maier) at Jehmco has always been helpful to me.  Besides, he carries stuff I don't see available at any other place.  As he's local to me (in New Jersey), even though not in the same county, I've come to know him to some extent and find that he's very forthright and honest in his dealings.  He's out to help the hobbyist all the time and is not about to steer you wrong just to make a sale.  You can't go wrong there.
       
      Ray
        
       
      In a message dated 2/1/2015 11:21:17 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Thanks Kevin, I'll check them out , and thank you Ray for the Jehmco  tip that's my new favorite place.
      Harry

      Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID


      "Kevin Boyle synoscats@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      http://www.nationalfishpharm.com/

      these guys carry almost everything, they give out advice that is almost always right on the money.

      On 2/1/2015 3:44 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] wrote:
       

      Hi Harry,
       
      Too bad about your LFS not carrying any meds.  I usually buy things I need at my LFS as they still carry a good selection.  Other than your LFS, Drs Foster & Smith has some of the ones that are most important.  I buy lots of stuff from them too.  I notice though, that lately they've discontinued stocking some of the more important meds.  
       
      They do carry API Furan II (for most external issues; fungal and gram-negative bacterial),  API Triple Sulfa (for fungus ), Seachem KanaPlex (Kanamycin Sulfate -- for internal gram-negative bacterial issues), API Erythromycin (for gram-positive bacterial hemhorrhagic Septicemia) and -- only if your pH is below pH 7.5 -- Tetracyclin (for Columnaris).  They carry other meds, but nothing else all that important.  You should call them at 1-800-443-1160 and they'll send you a free catalog if you ask.
       
      Other medication sources would be That Fish Place (That Pet Place) and Big Al's -- both of them also on line.  I don't know what medications they have, but you could just go up to their websites to find out.  You should get Acriflavin -- either powder or in solution.  One way to get this is to purchase API Fungus Cure. It's main ingredient is Acriflavin.  It used to sold as a liquid but is now in powder form.  Drs Foster & Smith carries this too.  It has many uses, both bacterial and fungal issues, aned is good for cleaning up any superficial infections before they advance.  One thing I use it for is eye cloud caused by bacterial infections caused by Angelfish fighting each other sometimes.  Some Angels go for the other's eyes, scraping them.  Anything else I told you to get, like Oxytetracyclin (in place of Teracycline, if your pH is higher than 7.5), should be able to be obtained from the two other places I mentioned.  If not, try either Jehmco or Ken's Fish Food -- they carry lots of other fish items (just Google them).
       
      Ray
                   
       
      In a message dated 2/1/2015 12:27:23 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hey Ray
      I'm going to start gathering my fish meds war chest. The LFS has about zero in the meds department. Where is the best place to order the list of meds you emailed.

      Harry

      Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID


      "sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Hi John,
       
      Any cross-threading got beyond me.  I thought all these posts were on the same subject, even if the subject lines were different -- which I didn't notice.  I don't see you as being out of line, but perhaps it was confusing (but just not to me). 
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 2/1/2015 10:10:31 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hi Noura, 

        Apologies about the mix up-there isn't another thread, I just commented on the test kits as part of this thread. Ray-hope I'm not out of line for doing this as I wasn't intending to stat a long discussion about test kits?

        John<o)))<

      On 31 January 2015 at 22:15, n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      Hi,
      I'm wondering why these two threads are mixed together? 
      I'm checking from the group's homepage in my browser. I don't know if this is part of why I don't see them separate?

      Noura



      -- 
      "Never use a big word when a monosyllabic diminutive will suffice."
      
      
      If it turns out that we really are alone in the universe, doesn't it seem like an awful waste of space?"
      
      
      Stupidity is a lot like nuclear power; it can be used for good or evil but either way you wouldn't want to get any on you>"




      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56539 From: sevenspringss Date: 2/2/2015
      Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
      AOL Email
      Hi Noura.
       
      I'm so sorry to hear that this fish didn't make it, especially after all the effort you went through in trying to help him.  I read both you messages, but thought I'd reply to this one first.  I have no specific reason why he died, but I extremely doubt it was because you prepared the Erythromycin solution last night and stored it in there fridge.  The worst thing they could have happened to the medication would have been that it lost some of its effectiveness, but that wouldn't have adversely affect him like this. 
       
      Don't blame yourself if that's what you think, as the only thing that an inadequately strong medication would do would be to allow the disease to advance slightly.  That would only mean that the disease would take a bit longer to completely cure.  Of course, that could (but not necessarily) also allow for a mutation of the disease to develop, making it harder to cure the disease but that's not going to happen in a matter of hours. 
       
      While I wasn't there to see exactly how well (or how poorly) he was doing just before the PWC, and only know that he was sitting upright on the bottom of the tank -- since you said he was lying on the bottom of the tank after this last PWC (a marked difference) -- In my estimation, his constantly weakening state from not eating is what finally did him in.  I've seen enough fish that have gone on a temporary hunger strike and were no longer able to swim because of their weakened condition, only to have never been able to pull out of this condition and die despite regaining their appetite and eating well again. 
       
      Many just don't make it and while Carp (which would include Barbs) may do this on occasion and regain their abilities, the smaller the fish is the less likely it's system is able to cope with such malnutrition.  One major reason why I was hoping he'd start eating.  I also don't believe it was the disease itself that overwhelmed him as you did everything you could to combat it and I doubt he was battling it at all anymore.  Still, even if a fish is completely cured, the medications need to be continued for the full duration of the treatment to prevent a relapse, and you were continuing his treatment at this time.  I applaude your efforts and all the care you've shown!      
       
      Best regards,
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 2/2/2015 11:07:59 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      He’s gone L

      Unbelievable…

      I’m sure it has to do with the last PWC about 3 hours ago. But I can’t think of the direct reason, I did everything exactly the same way as before.

      The only difference is that I prepared the Erythormycin solution last night and kept it in the fridge. It can’t be this.

      Noura L

      From: Noura T. [mailto:n-ocean@...]
      Sent: 02 شباط, 2015 12:46 م
      To: 'AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com'
      Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

      Hi Ray,

      The Barb went lying on his side right after the last PWC 2 hours ago. And he’s still like that.

      Test results are the same as last time.

      I matched the temperature for the added water and added the 3 medications, so not sure what’s wrong. He seemed okay before the change L

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 02 شباط, 2015 08:28 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56540 From: sevenspringss Date: 2/2/2015
      Subject: Re: Antibiotics
      AOL Email
      Harry,
       
      I'm glad to hear that.  They're very cordial there and will often bend over backwards to help a customer/hobbyist.  They really care about anyone reaching out for help.  Best wishes in your "fishy" relations with them < g
      >.  I have no doubts you'll be pleased.  BTW, please let me
      know if there are any specific diseases which you want to know what medications to use for treating them, or what any of the medications' uses are for.. 
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 2/2/2015 11:23:13 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Ray, I just got off the phone with a very helpful lady at Jehmco. Thanks for the tip about them , she went out of her way to help me !


      Thanks again
      Harry
      On Feb 2, 2015, at 1:21 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


      Hi Harry,
       
      That NationalFishPharm site that Kevin advised you of looks very helpful.  While I didn't explore it completely, what I did go up to looked right on the money although somewhat dated -- only because some of the medications, like Paracide, are no longer available.  I also notice that in some situations, the same medication -- like Oxytetracycline -- is recommended for numerous bacterial issues when some of the ailments it's suggested for could have more effective meds used against them.  I did mention Oxytetracycline for you as one medication to have on hand, but even that one has its limitations.  I say that only because this med is one that may be effectively used against Columnaris, although there are many reports that it's not always successful in treating this disorder, but then that's not my observations, but just taking all reports into consideration for the best possible route to use.  Likewise, I notice that the sulfa drugs are recommended for Columnaris (flexibacteria) also, which again are reported not to be 100% effective all the time.  The medication of choice for this disease would be Furan II, which always works in combating this pathogen.  While this site is still quite beneficial, perhaps the fact that much of the info appears to be somewhat outdated explains why the newer medications aren't mentioned.  While this site might be better to take with a grain of salt, it still looks very informative.
       
      I'm glad to see you found Jehmco to be a good source for your needs.  John (Maier) at Jehmco has always been helpful to me.  Besides, he carries stuff I don't see available at any other place.  As he's local to me (in New Jersey), even though not in the same county, I've come to know him to some extent and find that he's very forthright and honest in his dealings.  He's out to help the hobbyist all the time and is not about to steer you wrong just to make a sale.  You can't go wrong there.
       
      Ray
        
       
      In a message dated 2/1/2015 11:21:17 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Thanks Kevin, I'll check them out , and thank you Ray for the Jehmco  tip that's my new favorite place.
      Harry

      Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID


      "Kevin Boyle synoscats@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      http://www.nationalfishpharm.com/

      these guys carry almost everything, they give out advice that is almost always right on the money.

      On 2/1/2015 3:44 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] wrote:
       

      Hi Harry,
       
      Too bad about your LFS not carrying any meds.  I usually buy things I need at my LFS as they still carry a good selection.  Other than your LFS, Drs Foster & Smith has some of the ones that are most important.  I buy lots of stuff from them too.  I notice though, that lately they've discontinued stocking some of the more important meds.  
       
      They do carry API Furan II (for most external issues; fungal and gram-negative bacterial),  API Triple Sulfa (for fungus ), Seachem KanaPlex (Kanamycin Sulfate -- for internal gram-negative bacterial issues), API Erythromycin (for gram-positive bacterial hemhorrhagic Septicemia) and -- only if your pH is below pH 7.5 -- Tetracyclin (for Columnaris).  They carry other meds, but nothing else all that important.  You should call them at 1-800-443-1160 and they'll send you a free catalog if you ask.
       
      Other medication sources would be That Fish Place (That Pet Place) and Big Al's -- both of them also on line.  I don't know what medications they have, but you could just go up to their websites to find out.  You should get Acriflavin -- either powder or in solution.  One way to get this is to purchase API Fungus Cure. It's main ingredient is Acriflavin.  It used to sold as a liquid but is now in powder form.  Drs Foster & Smith carries this too.  It has many uses, both bacterial and fungal issues, aned is good for cleaning up any superficial infections before they advance.  One thing I use it for is eye cloud caused by bacterial infections caused by Angelfish fighting each other sometimes.  Some Angels go for the other's eyes, scraping them.  Anything else I told you to get, like Oxytetracyclin (in place of Teracycline, if your pH is higher than 7.5), should be able to be obtained from the two other places I mentioned.  If not, try either Jehmco or Ken's Fish Food -- they carry lots of other fish items (just Google them).
       
      Ray
                   
       
      In a message dated 2/1/2015 12:27:23 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hey Ray
      I'm going to start gathering my fish meds war chest. The LFS has about zero in the meds department. Where is the best place to order the list of meds you emailed.

      Harry

      Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID


      "sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Hi John,
       
      Any cross-threading got beyond me.  I thought all these posts were on the same subject, even if the subject lines were different -- which I didn't notice.  I don't see you as being out of line, but perhaps it was confusing (but just not to me). 
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 2/1/2015 10:10:31 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hi Noura, 

        Apologies about the mix up-there isn't another thread, I just commented on the test kits as part of this thread. Ray-hope I'm not out of line for doing this as I wasn't intending to stat a long discussion about test kits?

        John<o)))<

      On 31 January 2015 at 22:15, n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      Hi,
      I'm wondering why these two threads are mixed together? 
      I'm checking from the group's homepage in my browser. I don't know if this is part of why I don't see them separate?

      Noura



      -- 
      "Never use a big word when a monosyllabic diminutive will suffice."
      
      
      If it turns out that we really are alone in the universe, doesn't it seem like an awful waste of space?"
      
      
      Stupidity is a lot like nuclear power; it can be used for good or evil but either way you wouldn't want to get any on you>"




      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56541 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 2/2/2015
      Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
      Hi Noura,

        So sorry to hear he didn't make it but please do not beat yourself up about it. I've been following this thread with great interest & you really have gone out of your way to help this fish so there was nothing you could have done any better.

        John<o)))<

       

      On 2 February 2015 at 16:41, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      Hi Noura.
       
      I'm so sorry to hear that this fish didn't make it, especially after all the effort you went through in trying to help him.  I read both you messages, but thought I'd reply to this one first.  I have no specific reason why he died, but I extremely doubt it was because you prepared the Erythromycin solution last night and stored it in there fridge.  The worst thing they could have happened to the medication would have been that it lost some of its effectiveness, but that wouldn't have adversely affect him like this. 
       
      Don't blame yourself if that's what you think, as the only thing that an inadequately strong medication would do would be to allow the disease to advance slightly.  That would only mean that the disease would take a bit longer to completely cure.  Of course, that could (but not necessarily) also allow for a mutation of the disease to develop, making it harder to cure the disease but that's not going to happen in a matter of hours. 
       
      While I wasn't there to see exactly how well (or how poorly) he was doing just before the PWC, and only know that he was sitting upright on the bottom of the tank -- since you said he was lying on the bottom of the tank after this last PWC (a marked difference) -- In my estimation, his constantly weakening state from not eating is what finally did him in.  I've seen enough fish that have gone on a temporary hunger strike and were no longer able to swim because of their weakened condition, only to have never been able to pull out of this condition and die despite regaining their appetite and eating well again. 
       
      Many just don't make it and while Carp (which would include Barbs) may do this on occasion and regain their abilities, the smaller the fish is the less likely it's system is able to cope with such malnutrition.  One major reason why I was hoping he'd start eating.  I also don't believe it was the disease itself that overwhelmed him as you did everything you could to combat it and I doubt he was battling it at all anymore.  Still, even if a fish is completely cured, the medications need to be continued for the full duration of the treatment to prevent a relapse, and you were continuing his treatment at this time.  I applaude your efforts and all the care you've shown!      
       
      Best regards,
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 2/2/2015 11:07:59 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      He’s gone L

      Unbelievable…

      I’m sure it has to do with the last PWC about 3 hours ago. But I can’t think of the direct reason, I did everything exactly the same way as before.

      The only difference is that I prepared the Erythormycin solution last night and kept it in the fridge. It can’t be this.

      Noura L

      From: Noura T. [mailto:n-ocean@...]
      Sent: 02 شباط, 2015 12:46 م
      To: 'AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com'
      Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

      Hi Ray,

      The Barb went lying on his side right after the last PWC 2 hours ago. And he’s still like that.

      Test results are the same as last time.

      I matched the temperature for the added water and added the 3 medications, so not sure what’s wrong. He seemed okay before the change L

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 02 شباط, 2015 08:28 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       


      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56542 From: Noura T. Date: 2/2/2015
      Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

      Thanks for your kind words, Ray. And for all your, and John’s help.

      Exactly, he was sitting upright just before the water change, and breathing at an almost normal rate. And went lying on his side immediately after it.

      I’ve been turning this in my head all day… I know I did everything I could, but I really had high hopes for him after his condition stabilized.

      Your thoughts about the extreme weakness made me think that maybe the water movement while I was adding the new water have exhausted him completely, and beyond recovery. I wasn’t pouring water directly and heavily, I have put a 500 ml cup on the tank’s bottom and poured the new water in it so that water spilled from all its edges like a round fountain. Still, I noticed there were some currents that dragged Silver around a little in the tiny tank.

      I examined the tank very carefully today before changing water, and there were no droppings at all. It could well be that he hasn’t eaten in a week. Sigh…

       

      Last time I had to medicate a fish so intensely was with a smoky Anglefish, about 3 or 4 years ago. The hospital tank was barely deep enough for his rotten fins length. He had a really bad case of fin rot and wounds due to fighting for 5 minutes with the black Angelfish. His fins almost reached the flesh in places where they were torn. I had to medicate him for 8 weeks, with extensive PWCs “He was 3” long”. But he came around beautifully. I still have him now in the 20 G with a small Pleco and one survivor Clown Loach. Smoky is now more than 25 cm tall!

       

      We don’t get to win the fight everytime.. eh..

      Now I have to tell my mom L.

      Her tank is empty now. Anything to do to disinfect it before she gets any new fish?

       

      Thanks for your valuable help though this!

      Noura

       

       

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 02 شباط, 2015 06:42 م
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

       

      Hi Noura.

       

      I'm so sorry to hear that this fish didn't make it, especially after all the effort you went through in trying to help him.  I read both you messages, but thought I'd reply to this one first.  I have no specific reason why he died, but I extremely doubt it was because you prepared the Erythromycin solution last night and stored it in there fridge.  The worst thing they could have happened to the medication would have been that it lost some of its effectiveness, but that wouldn't have adversely affect him like this. 

       

      Don't blame yourself if that's what you think, as the only thing that an inadequately strong medication would do would be to allow the disease to advance slightly.  That would only mean that the disease would take a bit longer to completely cure.  Of course, that could (but not necessarily) also allow for a mutation of the disease to develop, making it harder to cure the disease but that's not going to happen in a matter of hours. 

       

      While I wasn't there to see exactly how well (or how poorly) he was doing just before the PWC, and only know that he was sitting upright on the bottom of the tank -- since you said he was lying on the bottom of the tank after this last PWC (a marked difference) -- In my estimation, his constantly weakening state from not eating is what finally did him in.  I've seen enough fish that have gone on a temporary hunger strike and were no longer able to swim because of their weakened condition, only to have never been able to pull out of this condition and die despite regaining their appetite and eating well again. 

       

      Many just don't make it and while Carp (which would include Barbs) may do this on occasion and regain their abilities, the smaller the fish is the less likely it's system is able to cope with such malnutrition.  One major reason why I was hoping he'd start eating.  I also don't believe it was the disease itself that overwhelmed him as you did everything you could to combat it and I doubt he was battling it at all anymore.  Still, even if a fish is completely cured, the medications need to be continued for the full duration of the treatment to prevent a relapse, and you were continuing his treatment at this time.  I applaude your efforts and all the care you've shown!      

       

      Best regards,

       

      Ray

       

       

      In a message dated 2/2/2015 11:07:59 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

       

      He’s gone L

      Unbelievable…

      I’m sure it has to do with the last PWC about 3 hours ago. But I can’t think of the direct reason, I did everything exactly the same way as before.

      The only difference is that I prepared the Erythormycin solution last night and kept it in the fridge. It can’t be this.

      Noura L

      From: Noura T. [mailto:n-ocean@...]
      Sent: 02 شباط, 2015 12:46 م
      To: 'AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com'
      Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

      Hi Ray,

      The Barb went lying on his side right after the last PWC 2 hours ago. And he’s still like that.

      Test results are the same as last time.

      I matched the temperature for the added water and added the 3 medications, so not sure what’s wrong. He seemed okay before the change L

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 02 شباط, 2015 08:28 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56543 From: Noura T. Date: 2/2/2015
      Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

      Thank you so much John…

      I know I did everything I could, but I can’t help thinking about it. However, tomorrow is another day.

       

      I have just told my mom about him. She answered: “He’s relieved from your experiments now” lol

       

      She has taken it better than I did.

       

      I’m suddenly feeling better after reading your, and Ray’s, messages. Thank you!

       

      Noura

       

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 02 شباط, 2015 08:20 م
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

       

      Hi Noura,

        So sorry to hear he didn't make it but please do not beat yourself up about it. I've been following this thread with great interest & you really have gone out of your way to help this fish so there was nothing you could have done any better.

        John<o)))<


       

       

      On 2 February 2015 at 16:41, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Hi Noura.

       

      I'm so sorry to hear that this fish didn't make it, especially after all the effort you went through in trying to help him.  I read both you messages, but thought I'd reply to this one first.  I have no specific reason why he died, but I extremely doubt it was because you prepared the Erythromycin solution last night and stored it in there fridge.  The worst thing they could have happened to the medication would have been that it lost some of its effectiveness, but that wouldn't have adversely affect him like this. 

       

      Don't blame yourself if that's what you think, as the only thing that an inadequately strong medication would do would be to allow the disease to advance slightly.  That would only mean that the disease would take a bit longer to completely cure.  Of course, that could (but not necessarily) also allow for a mutation of the disease to develop, making it harder to cure the disease but that's not going to happen in a matter of hours. 

       

      While I wasn't there to see exactly how well (or how poorly) he was doing just before the PWC, and only know that he was sitting upright on the bottom of the tank -- since you said he was lying on the bottom of the tank after this last PWC (a marked difference) -- In my estimation, his constantly weakening state from not eating is what finally did him in.  I've seen enough fish that have gone on a temporary hunger strike and were no longer able to swim because of their weakened condition, only to have never been able to pull out of this condition and die despite regaining their appetite and eating well again. 

       

      Many just don't make it and while Carp (which would include Barbs) may do this on occasion and regain their abilities, the smaller the fish is the less likely it's system is able to cope with such malnutrition.  One major reason why I was hoping he'd start eating.  I also don't believe it was the disease itself that overwhelmed him as you did everything you could to combat it and I doubt he was battling it at all anymore.  Still, even if a fish is completely cured, the medications need to be continued for the full duration of the treatment to prevent a relapse, and you were continuing his treatment at this time.  I applaude your efforts and all the care you've shown!      

       

      Best regards,

       

      Ray

       

       

      In a message dated 2/2/2015 11:07:59 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

       

      He’s gone L

      Unbelievable…

      I’m sure it has to do with the last PWC about 3 hours ago. But I can’t think of the direct reason, I did everything exactly the same way as before.

      The only difference is that I prepared the Erythormycin solution last night and kept it in the fridge. It can’t be this.

      Noura L

      From: Noura T. [mailto:n-ocean@...]
      Sent: 02 شباط, 2015 12:46 م
      To: 'AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com'
      Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

      Hi Ray,

      The Barb went lying on his side right after the last PWC 2 hours ago. And he’s still like that.

      Test results are the same as last time.

      I matched the temperature for the added water and added the 3 medications, so not sure what’s wrong. He seemed okay before the change L

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 02 شباط, 2015 08:28 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

       

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56544 From: sevenspringss Date: 2/2/2015
      Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
      AOL Email
      Hi Noura,
       
      Well, the water movement naturally buffered him around a bit while you were adding the new water, but as this procedure couldn't have lasted very long, he couldn't have been subjected to enough stress for a long enough time to have killed him.  I'm sure he struggled a bit to try to orient himself better in the water column as you poured the water into the cup -- just as any fish would have -- but it couldn't have caused his death.  As far as you know, he was sick at your mom's place for three days before you took him to your place.  Is there the chance that your mom may not have seen he was sick right away, and that he may not have eaten for 8 or even 9 days? 
       
      In any case, a small fish like this doesn't have very much body mass to feed his vital functions for many more days than just about a week, when he's not eaten to replenish the needed nutrients.The length of time a fish can go without eating and still remain alive is in direct proportion to it's body mass as this is the tissue that's sustaining him without any new nutrients being consumed.  
       
      From all I can see, you did everything you could do for him.  As for the Smoky Angel, I KNOW this fish didn't survive 8 weeks without eating, and didn't survive even two weeks without eating.  That's the difference here.  An Angelfish 25 cm (10") tall is quite impressive; you have to be proud of it.  I assume this 2 gallon tank has been your hospital tank all along.  I don't know how expensive tanks are by you or even if they're still available right now, but for the future you might want to consider getting a 5 gallon tank you this purpose.  It would make things easier if you have to make water changes again.
       
      No, sorry to say, we don't win them all -- but we can't feel bad knowing that we tried our best to save them.  Additionally, if we learn anything with treating a fish on the way -- which still dies despite our best efforts -- it will not have died in vain.
       
      Disinfecting the tank is easy enough.  I went back to check your first post in this thread and I see your mom's tank is 9 gallons.  Just add one cupful of chlorine bleach and fill the tank up right to the top of the rim.  Let it sit overnight and then drain it, assuming it sat for at least 12 hours (or more).  Then rinse it out thoroughly, even carrying it to the sink after it's empty to do this.  
       
      It's my please to help; I just wish it worked out better, but I half-suspected as more time went on, that it's chances were getting slimmer.  I kept hoping for the best though, as this fish was a fighter.  You're very welcome.
       
      Regards,
       
      Ray
                 
       
      In a message dated 2/2/2015 2:04:11 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Thanks for your kind words, Ray. And for all your, and John’s help.

      Exactly, he was sitting upright just before the water change, and breathing at an almost normal rate. And went lying on his side immediately after it.

      I’ve been turning this in my head all day… I know I did everything I could, but I really had high hopes for him after his condition stabilized.

      Your thoughts about the extreme weakness made me think that maybe the water movement while I was adding the new water have exhausted him completely, and beyond recovery. I wasn’t pouring water directly and heavily, I have put a 500 ml cup on the tank’s bottom and poured the new water in it so that water spilled from all its edges like a round fountain. Still, I noticed there were some currents that dragged Silver around a little in the tiny tank.

      I examined the tank very carefully today before changing water, and there were no droppings at all. It could well be that he hasn’t eaten in a week. Sigh…

      Last time I had to medicate a fish so intensely was with a smoky Anglefish, about 3 or 4 years ago. The hospital tank was barely deep enough for his rotten fins length. He had a really bad case of fin rot and wounds due to fighting for 5 minutes with the black Angelfish. His fins almost reached the flesh in places where they were torn. I had to medicate him for 8 weeks, with extensive PWCs “He was 3” long”. But he came around beautifully. I still have him now in the 20 G with a small Pleco and one survivor Clown Loach. Smoky is now more than 25 cm tall!

      We don’t get to win the fight everytime.. eh..

      Now I have to tell my mom L.

      Her tank is empty now. Anything to do to disinfect it before she gets any new fish?

      Thanks for your valuable help though this!

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 02 شباط, 2015 06:42 م
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

      Hi Noura.

      I'm so sorry to hear that this fish didn't make it, especially after all the effort you went through in trying to help him.  I read both you messages, but thought I'd reply to this one first.  I have no specific reason why he died, but I extremely doubt it was because you prepared the Erythromycin solution last night and stored it in there fridge.  The worst thing they could have happened to the medication would have been that it lost some of its effectiveness, but that wouldn't have adversely affect him like this. 

      Don't blame yourself if that's what you think, as the only thing that an inadequately strong medication would do would be to allow the disease to advance slightly.  That would only mean that the disease would take a bit longer to completely cure.  Of course, that could (but not necessarily) also allow for a mutation of the disease to develop, making it harder to cure the disease but that's not going to happen in a matter of hours. 

      While I wasn't there to see exactly how well (or how poorly) he was doing just before the PWC, and only know that he was sitting upright on the bottom of the tank -- since you said he was lying on the bottom of the tank after this last PWC (a marked difference) -- In my estimation, his constantly weakening state from not eating is what finally did him in.  I've seen enough fish that have gone on a temporary hunger strike and were no longer able to swim because of their weakened condition, only to have never been able to pull out of this condition and die despite regaining their appetite and eating well again. 

      Many just don't make it and while Carp (which would include Barbs) may do this on occasion and regain their abilities, the smaller the fish is the less likely it's system is able to cope with such malnutrition.  One major reason why I was hoping he'd start eating.  I also don't believe it was the disease itself that overwhelmed him as you did everything you could to combat it and I doubt he was battling it at all anymore.  Still, even if a fish is completely cured, the medications need to be continued for the full duration of the treatment to prevent a relapse, and you were continuing his treatment at this time.  I applaude your efforts and all the care you've shown!      

      Best regards,

      Ray

      In a message dated 2/2/2015 11:07:59 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

       

      He’s gone L

      Unbelievable…

      I’m sure it has to do with the last PWC about 3 hours ago. But I can’t think of the direct reason, I did everything exactly the same way as before.

      The only difference is that I prepared the Erythormycin solution last night and kept it in the fridge. It can’t be this.

      Noura L

      From: Noura T. [mailto:n-ocean@...]
      Sent: 02 شباط, 2015 12:46 م
      To: 'AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com'
      Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

      Hi Ray,

      The Barb went lying on his side right after the last PWC 2 hours ago. And he’s still like that.

      Test results are the same as last time.

      I matched the temperature for the added water and added the 3 medications, so not sure what’s wrong. He seemed okay before the change L

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 02 شباط, 2015 08:28 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56545 From: David Davis Date: 2/2/2015
      Subject: Re: Antibiotics
      Please remove me from the group.

      Thank you, Dave

      David Davis
      gooddad23@...


      -----Original Message-----
      From: sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
      To: AquaticLife <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Sun, Feb 1, 2015 12:45 pm
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Antibiotics

       
      Hi Harry,
       
      Too bad about your LFS not carrying any meds.  I usually buy things I need at my LFS as they still carry a good selection.  Other than your LFS, Drs Foster & Smith has some of the ones that are most important.  I buy lots of stuff from them too.  I notice though, that lately they've discontinued stocking some of the more important meds.  
       
      They do carry API Furan II (for most external issues; fungal and gram-negative bacterial),  API Triple Sulfa (for fungus ), Seachem KanaPlex (Kanamycin Sulfate -- for internal gram-negative bacterial issues), API Erythromycin (for gram-positive bacterial hemhorrhagic Septicemia) and -- only if your pH is below pH 7.5 -- Tetracyclin (for Columnaris).  They carry other meds, but nothing else all that important.  You should call them at 1-800-443-1160 and they'll send you a free catalog if you ask.
       
      Other medication sources would be That Fish Place (That Pet Place) and Big Al's -- both of them also on line.  I don't know what medications they have, but you could just go up to their websites to find out.  You should get Acriflavin -- either powder or in solution.  One way to get this is to purchase API Fungus Cure. It's main ingredient is Acriflavin.  It used to sold as a liquid but is now in powder form.  Drs Foster & Smith carries this too.  It has many uses, both bacterial and fungal issues, aned is good for cleaning up any superficial infections before they advance.  One thing I use it for is eye cloud caused by bacterial infections caused by Angelfish fighting each other sometimes.  Some Angels go for the other's eyes, scraping them.  Anything else I told you to get, like Oxytetracyclin (in place of Teracycline, if your pH is higher than 7.5), should be able to be obtained from the two other places I mentioned.  If not, try either Jehmco or Ken's Fish Food -- they carry lots of other fish items (just Google them).
       
      Ray
                   
       
      In a message dated 2/1/2015 12:27:23 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       
      Hey Ray
      I'm going to start gathering my fish meds war chest. The LFS has about zero in the meds department. Where is the best place to order the list of meds you emailed.

      Harry

      Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID


      "sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       
      Hi John,
       
      Any cross-threading got beyond me.  I thought all these posts were on the same subject, even if the subject lines were different -- which I didn't notice.  I don't see you as being out of line, but perhaps it was confusing (but just not to me). 
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 2/1/2015 10:10:31 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       
      Hi Noura,

        Apologies about the mix up-there isn't another thread, I just commented on the test kits as part of this thread. Ray-hope I'm not out of line for doing this as I wasn't intending to stat a long discussion about test kits?

        John <o)))<

      On 31 January 2015 at 22:15, n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       
      Hi,
      I'm wondering why these two threads are mixed together?
      I'm checking from the group's homepage in my browser. I don't know if this is part of why I don't see them separate?

      Noura

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56546 From: Noura T. Date: 2/2/2015
      Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

      Hi Ray,

       

      Indeed, the Angel never stopped eating during his entire treatment! He’s still such a big mouth, constantly begging and dancing for food. Pretty much reminds me of how Goldfish did a couple of decades ago at my parents. And, he was hospitalized in a 1.5 gallon bowl :-O , which was my 5th running aquarium at the time!

       

      It is possible that my mom didn’t notice the Barb’s illness immediately.

      Regarding my mom’s tank, are gravel okay to keep after the bleach disinfection?

      Can we use a very high concentration of salt instead? If yes, how much?

      It’s just that mom hates bleach, and it’s tedious for her to clean the tank thoroughly afterwards (I won’t be able to help out any time soon).

       

      One thing I can say for sure, I have learned a few things from this case.

       

      Best!

      Noura

       

       

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 03 شباط, 2015 12:25 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

       

      Hi Noura,

       

      Well, the water movement naturally buffered him around a bit while you were adding the new water, but as this procedure couldn't have lasted very long, he couldn't have been subjected to enough stress for a long enough time to have killed him.  I'm sure he struggled a bit to try to orient himself better in the water column as you poured the water into the cup -- just as any fish would have -- but it couldn't have caused his death.  As far as you know, he was sick at your mom's place for three days before you took him to your place.  Is there the chance that your mom may not have seen he was sick right away, and that he may not have eaten for 8 or even 9 days? 

       

      In any case, a small fish like this doesn't have very much body mass to feed his vital functions for many more days than just about a week, when he's not eaten to replenish the needed nutrients.The length of time a fish can go without eating and still remain alive is in direct proportion to it's body mass as this is the tissue that's sustaining him without any new nutrients being consumed.  

       

      From all I can see, you did everything you could do for him.  As for the Smoky Angel, I KNOW this fish didn't survive 8 weeks without eating, and didn't survive even two weeks without eating.  That's the difference here.  An Angelfish 25 cm (10") tall is quite impressive; you have to be proud of it.  I assume this 2 gallon tank has been your hospital tank all along.  I don't know how expensive tanks are by you or even if they're still available right now, but for the future you might want to consider getting a 5 gallon tank you this purpose.  It would make things easier if you have to make water changes again.

       

      No, sorry to say, we don't win them all -- but we can't feel bad knowing that we tried our best to save them.  Additionally, if we learn anything with treating a fish on the way -- which still dies despite our best efforts -- it will not have died in vain.

       

      Disinfecting the tank is easy enough.  I went back to check your first post in this thread and I see your mom's tank is 9 gallons.  Just add one cupful of chlorine bleach and fill the tank up right to the top of the rim.  Let it sit overnight and then drain it, assuming it sat for at least 12 hours (or more).  Then rinse it out thoroughly, even carrying it to the sink after it's empty to do this.  

       

      It's my please to help; I just wish it worked out better, but I half-suspected as more time went on, that it's chances were getting slimmer.  I kept hoping for the best though, as this fish was a fighter.  You're very welcome.

       

      Regards,

       

      Ray

                 

       

      In a message dated 2/2/2015 2:04:11 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

       

      Thanks for your kind words, Ray. And for all your, and John’s help.

      Exactly, he was sitting upright just before the water change, and breathing at an almost normal rate. And went lying on his side immediately after it.

      I’ve been turning this in my head all day… I know I did everything I could, but I really had high hopes for him after his condition stabilized.

      Your thoughts about the extreme weakness made me think that maybe the water movement while I was adding the new water have exhausted him completely, and beyond recovery. I wasn’t pouring water directly and heavily, I have put a 500 ml cup on the tank’s bottom and poured the new water in it so that water spilled from all its edges like a round fountain. Still, I noticed there were some currents that dragged Silver around a little in the tiny tank.

      I examined the tank very carefully today before changing water, and there were no droppings at all. It could well be that he hasn’t eaten in a week. Sigh…

      Last time I had to medicate a fish so intensely was with a smoky Anglefish, about 3 or 4 years ago. The hospital tank was barely deep enough for his rotten fins length. He had a really bad case of fin rot and wounds due to fighting for 5 minutes with the black Angelfish. His fins almost reached the flesh in places where they were torn. I had to medicate him for 8 weeks, with extensive PWCs “He was 3” long”. But he came around beautifully. I still have him now in the 20 G with a small Pleco and one survivor Clown Loach. Smoky is now more than 25 cm tall!

      We don’t get to win the fight everytime.. eh..

      Now I have to tell my mom L.

      Her tank is empty now. Anything to do to disinfect it before she gets any new fish?

      Thanks for your valuable help though this!

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 02 شباط, 2015 06:42 م
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

      Hi Noura.

      I'm so sorry to hear that this fish didn't make it, especially after all the effort you went through in trying to help him.  I read both you messages, but thought I'd reply to this one first.  I have no specific reason why he died, but I extremely doubt it was because you prepared the Erythromycin solution last night and stored it in there fridge.  The worst thing they could have happened to the medication would have been that it lost some of its effectiveness, but that wouldn't have adversely affect him like this. 

      Don't blame yourself if that's what you think, as the only thing that an inadequately strong medication would do would be to allow the disease to advance slightly.  That would only mean that the disease would take a bit longer to completely cure.  Of course, that could (but not necessarily) also allow for a mutation of the disease to develop, making it harder to cure the disease but that's not going to happen in a matter of hours. 

      While I wasn't there to see exactly how well (or how poorly) he was doing just before the PWC, and only know that he was sitting upright on the bottom of the tank -- since you said he was lying on the bottom of the tank after this last PWC (a marked difference) -- In my estimation, his constantly weakening state from not eating is what finally did him in.  I've seen enough fish that have gone on a temporary hunger strike and were no longer able to swim because of their weakened condition, only to have never been able to pull out of this condition and die despite regaining their appetite and eating well again. 

      Many just don't make it and while Carp (which would include Barbs) may do this on occasion and regain their abilities, the smaller the fish is the less likely it's system is able to cope with such malnutrition.  One major reason why I was hoping he'd start eating.  I also don't believe it was the disease itself that overwhelmed him as you did everything you could to combat it and I doubt he was battling it at all anymore.  Still, even if a fish is completely cured, the medications need to be continued for the full duration of the treatment to prevent a relapse, and you were continuing his treatment at this time.  I applaude your efforts and all the care you've shown!      

      Best regards,

      Ray

      In a message dated 2/2/2015 11:07:59 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

       

      He’s gone L

      Unbelievable…

      I’m sure it has to do with the last PWC about 3 hours ago. But I can’t think of the direct reason, I did everything exactly the same way as before.

      The only difference is that I prepared the Erythormycin solution last night and kept it in the fridge. It can’t be this.

      Noura L

      From: Noura T. [mailto:n-ocean@...]
      Sent: 02 شباط, 2015 12:46 م
      To: 'AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com'
      Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

      Hi Ray,

      The Barb went lying on his side right after the last PWC 2 hours ago. And he’s still like that.

      Test results are the same as last time.

      I matched the temperature for the added water and added the 3 medications, so not sure what’s wrong. He seemed okay before the change L

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 02 شباط, 2015 08:28 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56547 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 2/2/2015
      Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
      Smoky is a big boy!

        John<o)))<


      On 2 February 2015 at 18:55, 'Noura T.' n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      Thanks for your kind words, Ray. And for all your, and John’s help.

      Exactly, he was sitting upright just before the water change, and breathing at an almost normal rate. And went lying on his side immediately after it.

      I’ve been turning this in my head all day… I know I did everything I could, but I really had high hopes for him after his condition stabilized.

      Your thoughts about the extreme weakness made me think that maybe the water movement while I was adding the new water have exhausted him completely, and beyond recovery. I wasn’t pouring water directly and heavily, I have put a 500 ml cup on the tank’s bottom and poured the new water in it so that water spilled from all its edges like a round fountain. Still, I noticed there were some currents that dragged Silver around a little in the tiny tank.

      I examined the tank very carefully today before changing water, and there were no droppings at all. It could well be that he hasn’t eaten in a week. Sigh…

       

      Last time I had to medicate a fish so intensely was with a smoky Anglefish, about 3 or 4 years ago. The hospital tank was barely deep enough for his rotten fins length. He had a really bad case of fin rot and wounds due to fighting for 5 minutes with the black Angelfish. His fins almost reached the flesh in places where they were torn. I had to medicate him for 8 weeks, with extensive PWCs “He was 3” long”. But he came around beautifully. I still have him now in the 20 G with a small Pleco and one survivor Clown Loach. Smoky is now more than 25 cm tall!

       

      We don’t get to win the fight everytime.. eh..

      Now I have to tell my mom L.

      Her tank is empty now. Anything to do to disinfect it before she gets any new fish?

       

      Thanks for your valuable help though this!

      Noura

       

       

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 02 شباط, 2015 06:42 م
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

       

      Hi Noura.

       

      I'm so sorry to hear that this fish didn't make it, especially after all the effort you went through in trying to help him.  I read both you messages, but thought I'd reply to this one first.  I have no specific reason why he died, but I extremely doubt it was because you prepared the Erythromycin solution last night and stored it in there fridge.  The worst thing they could have happened to the medication would have been that it lost some of its effectiveness, but that wouldn't have adversely affect him like this. 

       

      Don't blame yourself if that's what you think, as the only thing that an inadequately strong medication would do would be to allow the disease to advance slightly.  That would only mean that the disease would take a bit longer to completely cure.  Of course, that could (but not necessarily) also allow for a mutation of the disease to develop, making it harder to cure the disease but that's not going to happen in a matter of hours. 

       

      While I wasn't there to see exactly how well (or how poorly) he was doing just before the PWC, and only know that he was sitting upright on the bottom of the tank -- since you said he was lying on the bottom of the tank after this last PWC (a marked difference) -- In my estimation, his constantly weakening state from not eating is what finally did him in.  I've seen enough fish that have gone on a temporary hunger strike and were no longer able to swim because of their weakened condition, only to have never been able to pull out of this condition and die despite regaining their appetite and eating well again. 

       

      Many just don't make it and while Carp (which would include Barbs) may do this on occasion and regain their abilities, the smaller the fish is the less likely it's system is able to cope with such malnutrition.  One major reason why I was hoping he'd start eating.  I also don't believe it was the disease itself that overwhelmed him as you did everything you could to combat it and I doubt he was battling it at all anymore.  Still, even if a fish is completely cured, the medications need to be continued for the full duration of the treatment to prevent a relapse, and you were continuing his treatment at this time.  I applaude your efforts and all the care you've shown!      

       

      Best regards,

       

      Ray

       

       

      In a message dated 2/2/2015 11:07:59 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

       

      He’s gone L

      Unbelievable…

      I’m sure it has to do with the last PWC about 3 hours ago. But I can’t think of the direct reason, I did everything exactly the same way as before.

      The only difference is that I prepared the Erythormycin solution last night and kept it in the fridge. It can’t be this.

      Noura L

      From: Noura T. [mailto:n-ocean@...]
      Sent: 02 شباط, 2015 12:46 م
      To: 'AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com'
      Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

      Hi Ray,

      The Barb went lying on his side right after the last PWC 2 hours ago. And he’s still like that.

      Test results are the same as last time.

      I matched the temperature for the added water and added the 3 medications, so not sure what’s wrong. He seemed okay before the change L

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 02 شباط, 2015 08:28 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       


      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56548 From: sevenspringss Date: 2/2/2015
      Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
      AOL Email
      Hi Noura,
       
      That's simply amazing that Smoky was isolated to a 1.5 gallon bowl for treatment.  I have no words to explain how he could have survived in such a small quality of water -- and for 8 weeks, no less. 
       
      Well, we'll never know exactly how long the Rosy Barb went without eating.  Much longer than 7 days and he was probably doomed from the start if it were predetermined that he would never choose to eat again.  Still, only the care you gave him would have prompted him to eat, if he were ever to regain his appetite.  Sometimes sick fish reach such a weakened state that the just have no impulse to eat regardless of what we can do for them.
       
      I know that bleach would be a very sure disinfectant.  Salt is not actually a microbial disinfectant but instead a microbial inhibitor even , increasingly effective over time.  It will eventually kill many type of bacteria but is more lethal to gram-negative bacteria than it is to gram-positive bacteria -- and bacterial Hemhorrhagic Septicemia is caused by gram-positive bacteria.  The higher the saline solution, the greater the influence of this substance in stopping the bacteria's growth and multiplication over time, as it reduces the amount of water in their environment; they become dehydrated.  While I can't be at all certain, I have to wonder if there my be the slightest chance that enough of these gram-positive bacteria survive after the salt bath to pose a latent danger for any fish stressed at some time in the future.  I know that salt has antifungal properties; I use it myself in disinfecting egg-hatching tanks.  Salt is also said to be antibacterial, but I just wouldn't trust it to eliminate such a potent disease.  I'm not saying that it wouldn't work but it just wouldn't be my choice.
       
      If you want to have your mom use salt rather than bleach, I'd suggest to use at least 10 or even 12 teaspoons per gallon Mollies can tolerate up to 8 teaspoons per gallon and they're fish, not resistant and tenacious bacterial pathogens that may still be viable in a much higher salinity.  It may not even be a question of how little of an amount of salt should be used but how much more can be used.  With a 9 gallon tank, and with using 12 teaspoons per gallon equaling 108 teaspoons, (and with 1 cup equaling 50 teaspoons), I'd go with at least two heaping cupfuls of salt.  The more salt in addition to this, the more effective it should be.  Dissolve the salt first before adding it to the tank if possible.  If not possible, slowly add it to the tank to dissolve it as it's being added and stir the gravel thoroughly at different intervals during the time this solution remains in the tank.  The longer the salt remains in the tank, the more effective it will be, too.  Even several days won't be too long to ensure a more microbe-free environment, if there's no rush in setting it back up for fish.  Be sure to rinse the gravel out thoroughly, although the little that's left in it won't cause a problem.  
       
      Ray         
       
       
       
      In a message dated 2/2/2015 6:09:34 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hi Ray,

      Indeed, the Angel never stopped eating during his entire treatment! He’s still such a big mouth, constantly begging and dancing for food. Pretty much reminds me of how Goldfish did a couple of decades ago at my parents. And, he was hospitalized in a 1.5 gallon bowl :-O , which was my 5th running aquarium at the time!

      It is possible that my mom didn’t notice the Barb’s illness immediately.

      Regarding my mom’s tank, are gravel okay to keep after the bleach disinfection?

      Can we use a very high concentration of salt instead? If yes, how much?

      It’s just that mom hates bleach, and it’s tedious for her to clean the tank thoroughly afterwards (I won’t be able to help out any time soon).

      One thing I can say for sure, I have learned a few things from this case.

      Best!

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 03 شباط, 2015 12:25 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

      Hi Noura,

      Well, the water movement naturally buffered him around a bit while you were adding the new water, but as this procedure couldn't have lasted very long, he couldn't have been subjected to enough stress for a long enough time to have killed him.  I'm sure he struggled a bit to try to orient himself better in the water column as you poured the water into the cup -- just as any fish would have -- but it couldn't have caused his death.  As far as you know, he was sick at your mom's place for three days before you took him to your place.  Is there the chance that your mom may not have seen he was sick right away, and that he may not have eaten for 8 or even 9 days? 

      In any case, a small fish like this doesn't have very much body mass to feed his vital functions for many more days than just about a week, when he's not eaten to replenish the needed nutrients.The length of time a fish can go without eating and still remain alive is in direct proportion to it's body mass as this is the tissue that's sustaining him without any new nutrients being consumed.  

      From all I can see, you did everything you could do for him.  As for the Smoky Angel, I KNOW this fish didn't survive 8 weeks without eating, and didn't survive even two weeks without eating.  That's the difference here.  An Angelfish 25 cm (10") tall is quite impressive; you have to be proud of it.  I assume this 2 gallon tank has been your hospital tank all along.  I don't know how expensive tanks are by you or even if they're still available right now, but for the future you might want to consider getting a 5 gallon tank you this purpose.  It would make things easier if you have to make water changes again.

      No, sorry to say, we don't win them all -- but we can't feel bad knowing that we tried our best to save them.  Additionally, if we learn anything with treating a fish on the way -- which still dies despite our best efforts -- it will not have died in vain.

      Disinfecting the tank is easy enough.  I went back to check your first post in this thread and I see your mom's tank is 9 gallons.  Just add one cupful of chlorine bleach and fill the tank up right to the top of the rim.  Let it sit overnight and then drain it, assuming it sat for at least 12 hours (or more).  Then rinse it out thoroughly, even carrying it to the sink after it's empty to do this.  

      It's my please to help; I just wish it worked out better, but I half-suspected as more time went on, that it's chances were getting slimmer.  I kept hoping for the best though, as this fish was a fighter.  You're very welcome.

      Regards,

      Ray

                 

      In a message dated 2/2/2015 2:04:11 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

       

      Thanks for your kind words, Ray. And for all your, and John’s help.

      Exactly, he was sitting upright just before the water change, and breathing at an almost normal rate. And went lying on his side immediately after it.

      I’ve been turning this in my head all day… I know I did everything I could, but I really had high hopes for him after his condition stabilized.

      Your thoughts about the extreme weakness made me think that maybe the water movement while I was adding the new water have exhausted him completely, and beyond recovery. I wasn’t pouring water directly and heavily, I have put a 500 ml cup on the tank’s bottom and poured the new water in it so that water spilled from all its edges like a round fountain. Still, I noticed there were some currents that dragged Silver around a little in the tiny tank.

      I examined the tank very carefully today before changing water, and there were no droppings at all. It could well be that he hasn’t eaten in a week. Sigh…

      Last time I had to medicate a fish so intensely was with a smoky Anglefish, about 3 or 4 years ago. The hospital tank was barely deep enough for his rotten fins length. He had a really bad case of fin rot and wounds due to fighting for 5 minutes with the black Angelfish. His fins almost reached the flesh in places where they were torn. I had to medicate him for 8 weeks, with extensive PWCs “He was 3” long”. But he came around beautifully. I still have him now in the 20 G with a small Pleco and one survivor Clown Loach. Smoky is now more than 25 cm tall!

      We don’t get to win the fight everytime.. eh..

      Now I have to tell my mom L.

      Her tank is empty now. Anything to do to disinfect it before she gets any new fish?

      Thanks for your valuable help though this!

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 02 شباط, 2015 06:42 م
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

      Hi Noura.

      I'm so sorry to hear that this fish didn't make it, especially after all the effort you went through in trying to help him.  I read both you messages, but thought I'd reply to this one first.  I have no specific reason why he died, but I extremely doubt it was because you prepared the Erythromycin solution last night and stored it in there fridge.  The worst thing they could have happened to the medication would have been that it lost some of its effectiveness, but that wouldn't have adversely affect him like this. 

      Don't blame yourself if that's what you think, as the only thing that an inadequately strong medication would do would be to allow the disease to advance slightly.  That would only mean that the disease would take a bit longer to completely cure.  Of course, that could (but not necessarily) also allow for a mutation of the disease to develop, making it harder to cure the disease but that's not going to happen in a matter of hours. 

      While I wasn't there to see exactly how well (or how poorly) he was doing just before the PWC, and only know that he was sitting upright on the bottom of the tank -- since you said he was lying on the bottom of the tank after this last PWC (a marked difference) -- In my estimation, his constantly weakening state from not eating is what finally did him in.  I've seen enough fish that have gone on a temporary hunger strike and were no longer able to swim because of their weakened condition, only to have never been able to pull out of this condition and die despite regaining their appetite and eating well again. 

      Many just don't make it and while Carp (which would include Barbs) may do this on occasion and regain their abilities, the smaller the fish is the less likely it's system is able to cope with such malnutrition.  One major reason why I was hoping he'd start eating.  I also don't believe it was the disease itself that overwhelmed him as you did everything you could to combat it and I doubt he was battling it at all anymore.  Still, even if a fish is completely cured, the medications need to be continued for the full duration of the treatment to prevent a relapse, and you were continuing his treatment at this time.  I applaude your efforts and all the care you've shown!      

      Best regards,

      Ray

      In a message dated 2/2/2015 11:07:59 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

       

      He’s gone L

      Unbelievable…

      I’m sure it has to do with the last PWC about 3 hours ago. But I can’t think of the direct reason, I did everything exactly the same way as before.

      The only difference is that I prepared the Erythormycin solution last night and kept it in the fridge. It can’t be this.

      Noura L

      From: Noura T. [mailto:n-ocean@...]
      Sent: 02 شباط, 2015 12:46 م
      To: 'AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com'
      Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

      Hi Ray,

      The Barb went lying on his side right after the last PWC 2 hours ago. And he’s still like that.

      Test results are the same as last time.

      I matched the temperature for the added water and added the 3 medications, so not sure what’s wrong. He seemed okay before the change L

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 02 شباط, 2015 08:28 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56549 From: Noura T. Date: 2/3/2015
      Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

      :-D

      His baby pics are in the photos section!

      I think the folder is Noura’s tanks , or something like that. He was tinyyy!

       

      Noura

       

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 03 شباط, 2015 01:35 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

       

      Smoky is a big boy!

        John<o)))<

       

      On 2 February 2015 at 18:55, 'Noura T.' n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Thanks for your kind words, Ray. And for all your, and John’s help.

      Exactly, he was sitting upright just before the water change, and breathing at an almost normal rate. And went lying on his side immediately after it.

      I’ve been turning this in my head all day… I know I did everything I could, but I really had high hopes for him after his condition stabilized.

      Your thoughts about the extreme weakness made me think that maybe the water movement while I was adding the new water have exhausted him completely, and beyond recovery. I wasn’t pouring water directly and heavily, I have put a 500 ml cup on the tank’s bottom and poured the new water in it so that water spilled from all its edges like a round fountain. Still, I noticed there were some currents that dragged Silver around a little in the tiny tank.

      I examined the tank very carefully today before changing water, and there were no droppings at all. It could well be that he hasn’t eaten in a week. Sigh…

       

      Last time I had to medicate a fish so intensely was with a smoky Anglefish, about 3 or 4 years ago. The hospital tank was barely deep enough for his rotten fins length. He had a really bad case of fin rot and wounds due to fighting for 5 minutes with the black Angelfish. His fins almost reached the flesh in places where they were torn. I had to medicate him for 8 weeks, with extensive PWCs “He was 3” long”. But he came around beautifully. I still have him now in the 20 G with a small Pleco and one survivor Clown Loach. Smoky is now more than 25 cm tall!

       

      We don’t get to win the fight everytime.. eh..

      Now I have to tell my mom L.

      Her tank is empty now. Anything to do to disinfect it before she gets any new fish?

       

      Thanks for your valuable help though this!

      Noura

       

       

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 02 شباط, 2015 06:42 م
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

       

      Hi Noura.

       

      I'm so sorry to hear that this fish didn't make it, especially after all the effort you went through in trying to help him.  I read both you messages, but thought I'd reply to this one first.  I have no specific reason why he died, but I extremely doubt it was because you prepared the Erythromycin solution last night and stored it in there fridge.  The worst thing they could have happened to the medication would have been that it lost some of its effectiveness, but that wouldn't have adversely affect him like this. 

       

      Don't blame yourself if that's what you think, as the only thing that an inadequately strong medication would do would be to allow the disease to advance slightly.  That would only mean that the disease would take a bit longer to completely cure.  Of course, that could (but not necessarily) also allow for a mutation of the disease to develop, making it harder to cure the disease but that's not going to happen in a matter of hours. 

       

      While I wasn't there to see exactly how well (or how poorly) he was doing just before the PWC, and only know that he was sitting upright on the bottom of the tank -- since you said he was lying on the bottom of the tank after this last PWC (a marked difference) -- In my estimation, his constantly weakening state from not eating is what finally did him in.  I've seen enough fish that have gone on a temporary hunger strike and were no longer able to swim because of their weakened condition, only to have never been able to pull out of this condition and die despite regaining their appetite and eating well again. 

       

      Many just don't make it and while Carp (which would include Barbs) may do this on occasion and regain their abilities, the smaller the fish is the less likely it's system is able to cope with such malnutrition.  One major reason why I was hoping he'd start eating.  I also don't believe it was the disease itself that overwhelmed him as you did everything you could to combat it and I doubt he was battling it at all anymore.  Still, even if a fish is completely cured, the medications need to be continued for the full duration of the treatment to prevent a relapse, and you were continuing his treatment at this time.  I applaude your efforts and all the care you've shown!      

       

      Best regards,

       

      Ray

       

       

      In a message dated 2/2/2015 11:07:59 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

       

      He’s gone L

      Unbelievable…

      I’m sure it has to do with the last PWC about 3 hours ago. But I can’t think of the direct reason, I did everything exactly the same way as before.

      The only difference is that I prepared the Erythormycin solution last night and kept it in the fridge. It can’t be this.

      Noura L

      From: Noura T. [mailto:n-ocean@...]
      Sent: 02 شباط, 2015 12:46 م
      To: 'AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com'
      Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

      Hi Ray,

      The Barb went lying on his side right after the last PWC 2 hours ago. And he’s still like that.

      Test results are the same as last time.

      I matched the temperature for the added water and added the 3 medications, so not sure what’s wrong. He seemed okay before the change L

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 02 شباط, 2015 08:28 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

       

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56550 From: dmctjc Date: 2/3/2015
      Subject: Moving

      I am moving 5 hrs away in the next couple of months and am trying to do some planning. 


      First, let me assure you that the fish and their homes will be moved in heated cars, not in the moving truck!


      I am taking a 55 gal community tank planted with low light plants. The morning the movers come

      I plan to move the fish into heavy plastic tubs with lids. I plan to stop every couple of hours and

      run an airstone in each tub for a few min. I am not sure how to get the dirt and fish

      comfortable in their new home? Should I plan on the first night just getting the driftwood,

      fish and plants into the tank? Should I add plan to soak the dirt in tubs and add it to the 

      tank over several days? To make it easier/less stressful on the fish should I get the driftwood

      and plants out of the tank a day or 2 before the move? 


      I am also moving 2 male betta fish. For the drive would it be safe to put them in zip lock bags?


      Thanks for any and all advice!


      Donna


      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56551 From: Donna Ransome Date: 2/3/2015
      Subject: Re: Moving
      Can you set up the tanks first in the new location? Then move the tubs?



      For transporting the tubs I’d get a bunch of battery operated air pumps (like $10 each) and just run them the entire duration of the trip.



      I’d also put the fish in the tubs the night before and run both filters and heaters right in the tubs. With this set up they can last a while upon arrival in the new place as well.



      I’d just throw the plants in the tubs with the fish.



      I’d add the substrate all at once.



      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: Tuesday, February 3, 2015 12:59 PM
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [AquaticLife] Moving





      I am moving 5 hrs away in the next couple of months and am trying to do some planning.



      First, let me assure you that the fish and their homes will be moved in heated cars, not in the moving truck!



      I am taking a 55 gal community tank planted with low light plants. The morning the movers come

      I plan to move the fish into heavy plastic tubs with lids. I plan to stop every couple of hours and

      run an airstone in each tub for a few min. I am not sure how to get the dirt and fish

      comfortable in their new home? Should I plan on the first night just getting the driftwood,

      fish and plants into the tank? Should I add plan to soak the dirt in tubs and add it to the

      tank over several days? To make it easier/less stressful on the fish should I get the driftwood

      and plants out of the tank a day or 2 before the move?



      I am also moving 2 male betta fish. For the drive would it be safe to put them in zip lock bags?



      Thanks for any and all advice!



      Donna







      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56552 From: andy_peltier Date: 2/3/2015
      Subject: 29 gallon
      Hi all I am fairly new to fresh water and have a 29 gallon set up with an aqua clear 30 & 50 on it . It has been set up for about 4 months the water test great . My problem is the water is yellow and light green. I have a canister filter on the way. I have 5 tiger barbs 2 bolivian rams 2 cory cats a placo. I changed the carbon filter every month and squeeze out the bottom pads in the water I take out of the tank every time I do a water change about 2 weeks. Is the water color something to be concerned about. I am setting up a 20 long next week for the tiger barb tank.


      Thanks


      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56553 From: andy_peltier Date: 2/3/2015
      Subject: Re: 29 gallon
      I did upload some pics its under Andys 29 .
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56554 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 2/3/2015
      Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
      Hi Noura,

        I just looked at Smoky as a baby-you must be very proud of him he's a great looking fish. I'd be interested to see what he looks like now if you can post some pictures anytime.

        John<o)))<

      On 3 February 2015 at 09:05, 'Noura T.' n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      :-D

      His baby pics are in the photos section!

      I think the folder is Noura’s tanks , or something like that. He was tinyyy!

       

      Noura

       

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 03 شباط, 2015 01:35 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

       

      Smoky is a big boy!

        John<o)))<

       

      On 2 February 2015 at 18:55, 'Noura T.' n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Thanks for your kind words, Ray. And for all your, and John’s help.

      Exactly, he was sitting upright just before the water change, and breathing at an almost normal rate. And went lying on his side immediately after it.

      I’ve been turning this in my head all day… I know I did everything I could, but I really had high hopes for him after his condition stabilized.

      Your thoughts about the extreme weakness made me think that maybe the water movement while I was adding the new water have exhausted him completely, and beyond recovery. I wasn’t pouring water directly and heavily, I have put a 500 ml cup on the tank’s bottom and poured the new water in it so that water spilled from all its edges like a round fountain. Still, I noticed there were some currents that dragged Silver around a little in the tiny tank.

      I examined the tank very carefully today before changing water, and there were no droppings at all. It could well be that he hasn’t eaten in a week. Sigh…

       

      Last time I had to medicate a fish so intensely was with a smoky Anglefish, about 3 or 4 years ago. The hospital tank was barely deep enough for his rotten fins length. He had a really bad case of fin rot and wounds due to fighting for 5 minutes with the black Angelfish. His fins almost reached the flesh in places where they were torn. I had to medicate him for 8 weeks, with extensive PWCs “He was 3” long”. But he came around beautifully. I still have him now in the 20 G with a small Pleco and one survivor Clown Loach. Smoky is now more than 25 cm tall!

       

      We don’t get to win the fight everytime.. eh..

      Now I have to tell my mom L.

      Her tank is empty now. Anything to do to disinfect it before she gets any new fish?

       

      Thanks for your valuable help though this!

      Noura

       

       

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 02 شباط, 2015 06:42 م
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

       

      Hi Noura.

       

      I'm so sorry to hear that this fish didn't make it, especially after all the effort you went through in trying to help him.  I read both you messages, but thought I'd reply to this one first.  I have no specific reason why he died, but I extremely doubt it was because you prepared the Erythromycin solution last night and stored it in there fridge.  The worst thing they could have happened to the medication would have been that it lost some of its effectiveness, but that wouldn't have adversely affect him like this. 

       

      Don't blame yourself if that's what you think, as the only thing that an inadequately strong medication would do would be to allow the disease to advance slightly.  That would only mean that the disease would take a bit longer to completely cure.  Of course, that could (but not necessarily) also allow for a mutation of the disease to develop, making it harder to cure the disease but that's not going to happen in a matter of hours. 

       

      While I wasn't there to see exactly how well (or how poorly) he was doing just before the PWC, and only know that he was sitting upright on the bottom of the tank -- since you said he was lying on the bottom of the tank after this last PWC (a marked difference) -- In my estimation, his constantly weakening state from not eating is what finally did him in.  I've seen enough fish that have gone on a temporary hunger strike and were no longer able to swim because of their weakened condition, only to have never been able to pull out of this condition and die despite regaining their appetite and eating well again. 

       

      Many just don't make it and while Carp (which would include Barbs) may do this on occasion and regain their abilities, the smaller the fish is the less likely it's system is able to cope with such malnutrition.  One major reason why I was hoping he'd start eating.  I also don't believe it was the disease itself that overwhelmed him as you did everything you could to combat it and I doubt he was battling it at all anymore.  Still, even if a fish is completely cured, the medications need to be continued for the full duration of the treatment to prevent a relapse, and you were continuing his treatment at this time.  I applaude your efforts and all the care you've shown!      

       

      Best regards,

       

      Ray

       

       

      In a message dated 2/2/2015 11:07:59 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

       

      He’s gone L

      Unbelievable…

      I’m sure it has to do with the last PWC about 3 hours ago. But I can’t think of the direct reason, I did everything exactly the same way as before.

      The only difference is that I prepared the Erythormycin solution last night and kept it in the fridge. It can’t be this.

      Noura L

      From: Noura T. [mailto:n-ocean@...]
      Sent: 02 شباط, 2015 12:46 م
      To: 'AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com'
      Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

      Hi Ray,

      The Barb went lying on his side right after the last PWC 2 hours ago. And he’s still like that.

      Test results are the same as last time.

      I matched the temperature for the added water and added the 3 medications, so not sure what’s wrong. He seemed okay before the change L

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 02 شباط, 2015 08:28 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

       


      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56555 From: Noura T. Date: 2/3/2015
      Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

      Oh thank you John J

      I sure will!

       

      Noura

       

       

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 04 شباط, 2015 12:41 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

       

      Hi Noura,

        I just looked at Smoky as a baby-you must be very proud of him he's a great looking fish. I'd be interested to see what he looks like now if you can post some pictures anytime.

        John<o)))<

       

      On 3 February 2015 at 09:05, 'Noura T.' n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      :-D

      His baby pics are in the photos section!

      I think the folder is Noura’s tanks , or something like that. He was tinyyy!

       

      Noura

       

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 03 شباط, 2015 01:35 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

       

      Smoky is a big boy!

        John<o)))<

       

      On 2 February 2015 at 18:55, 'Noura T.' n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Thanks for your kind words, Ray. And for all your, and John’s help.

      Exactly, he was sitting upright just before the water change, and breathing at an almost normal rate. And went lying on his side immediately after it.

      I’ve been turning this in my head all day… I know I did everything I could, but I really had high hopes for him after his condition stabilized.

      Your thoughts about the extreme weakness made me think that maybe the water movement while I was adding the new water have exhausted him completely, and beyond recovery. I wasn’t pouring water directly and heavily, I have put a 500 ml cup on the tank’s bottom and poured the new water in it so that water spilled from all its edges like a round fountain. Still, I noticed there were some currents that dragged Silver around a little in the tiny tank.

      I examined the tank very carefully today before changing water, and there were no droppings at all. It could well be that he hasn’t eaten in a week. Sigh…

       

      Last time I had to medicate a fish so intensely was with a smoky Anglefish, about 3 or 4 years ago. The hospital tank was barely deep enough for his rotten fins length. He had a really bad case of fin rot and wounds due to fighting for 5 minutes with the black Angelfish. His fins almost reached the flesh in places where they were torn. I had to medicate him for 8 weeks, with extensive PWCs “He was 3” long”. But he came around beautifully. I still have him now in the 20 G with a small Pleco and one survivor Clown Loach. Smoky is now more than 25 cm tall!

       

      We don’t get to win the fight everytime.. eh..

      Now I have to tell my mom L.

      Her tank is empty now. Anything to do to disinfect it before she gets any new fish?

       

      Thanks for your valuable help though this!

      Noura

       

       

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 02 شباط, 2015 06:42 م
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

       

      Hi Noura.

       

      I'm so sorry to hear that this fish didn't make it, especially after all the effort you went through in trying to help him.  I read both you messages, but thought I'd reply to this one first.  I have no specific reason why he died, but I extremely doubt it was because you prepared the Erythromycin solution last night and stored it in there fridge.  The worst thing they could have happened to the medication would have been that it lost some of its effectiveness, but that wouldn't have adversely affect him like this. 

       

      Don't blame yourself if that's what you think, as the only thing that an inadequately strong medication would do would be to allow the disease to advance slightly.  That would only mean that the disease would take a bit longer to completely cure.  Of course, that could (but not necessarily) also allow for a mutation of the disease to develop, making it harder to cure the disease but that's not going to happen in a matter of hours. 

       

      While I wasn't there to see exactly how well (or how poorly) he was doing just before the PWC, and only know that he was sitting upright on the bottom of the tank -- since you said he was lying on the bottom of the tank after this last PWC (a marked difference) -- In my estimation, his constantly weakening state from not eating is what finally did him in.  I've seen enough fish that have gone on a temporary hunger strike and were no longer able to swim because of their weakened condition, only to have never been able to pull out of this condition and die despite regaining their appetite and eating well again. 

       

      Many just don't make it and while Carp (which would include Barbs) may do this on occasion and regain their abilities, the smaller the fish is the less likely it's system is able to cope with such malnutrition.  One major reason why I was hoping he'd start eating.  I also don't believe it was the disease itself that overwhelmed him as you did everything you could to combat it and I doubt he was battling it at all anymore.  Still, even if a fish is completely cured, the medications need to be continued for the full duration of the treatment to prevent a relapse, and you were continuing his treatment at this time.  I applaude your efforts and all the care you've shown!      

       

      Best regards,

       

      Ray

       

       

      In a message dated 2/2/2015 11:07:59 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

       

      He’s gone L

      Unbelievable…

      I’m sure it has to do with the last PWC about 3 hours ago. But I can’t think of the direct reason, I did everything exactly the same way as before.

      The only difference is that I prepared the Erythormycin solution last night and kept it in the fridge. It can’t be this.

      Noura L

      From: Noura T. [mailto:n-ocean@...]
      Sent: 02 شباط, 2015 12:46 م
      To: 'AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com'
      Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

      Hi Ray,

      The Barb went lying on his side right after the last PWC 2 hours ago. And he’s still like that.

      Test results are the same as last time.

      I matched the temperature for the added water and added the 3 medications, so not sure what’s wrong. He seemed okay before the change L

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 02 شباط, 2015 08:28 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

       

       

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56556 From: Noura T. Date: 2/3/2015
      Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

      Here’s my big boy Smoky.. He’s a monster J

      I wanted to take pics of the Clown Loach, but they were sleeping. He/she likes to hide in those caves, especially at night, like now.

       

      (It could take a while before the new photos are approved)

       

      https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/AquaticLife/photos/albums/1956468285

       

       

      Noura

       

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 04 شباط, 2015 01:05 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

       

      Oh thank you John J

      I sure will!

       

      Noura

       

       

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 04 شباط, 2015 12:41 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

       

      Hi Noura,

        I just looked at Smoky as a baby-you must be very proud of him he's a great looking fish. I'd be interested to see what he looks like now if you can post some pictures anytime.

        John<o)))<

       

      On 3 February 2015 at 09:05, 'Noura T.' n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      :-D

      His baby pics are in the photos section!

      I think the folder is Noura’s tanks , or something like that. He was tinyyy!

       

      Noura

       

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 03 شباط, 2015 01:35 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

       

      Smoky is a big boy!

        John<o)))<

       

      On 2 February 2015 at 18:55, 'Noura T.' n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Thanks for your kind words, Ray. And for all your, and John’s help.

      Exactly, he was sitting upright just before the water change, and breathing at an almost normal rate. And went lying on his side immediately after it.

      I’ve been turning this in my head all day… I know I did everything I could, but I really had high hopes for him after his condition stabilized.

      Your thoughts about the extreme weakness made me think that maybe the water movement while I was adding the new water have exhausted him completely, and beyond recovery. I wasn’t pouring water directly and heavily, I have put a 500 ml cup on the tank’s bottom and poured the new water in it so that water spilled from all its edges like a round fountain. Still, I noticed there were some currents that dragged Silver around a little in the tiny tank.

      I examined the tank very carefully today before changing water, and there were no droppings at all. It could well be that he hasn’t eaten in a week. Sigh…

       

      Last time I had to medicate a fish so intensely was with a smoky Anglefish, about 3 or 4 years ago. The hospital tank was barely deep enough for his rotten fins length. He had a really bad case of fin rot and wounds due to fighting for 5 minutes with the black Angelfish. His fins almost reached the flesh in places where they were torn. I had to medicate him for 8 weeks, with extensive PWCs “He was 3” long”. But he came around beautifully. I still have him now in the 20 G with a small Pleco and one survivor Clown Loach. Smoky is now more than 25 cm tall!

       

      We don’t get to win the fight everytime.. eh..

      Now I have to tell my mom L.

      Her tank is empty now. Anything to do to disinfect it before she gets any new fish?

       

      Thanks for your valuable help though this!

      Noura

       

       

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 02 شباط, 2015 06:42 م
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

       

      Hi Noura.

       

      I'm so sorry to hear that this fish didn't make it, especially after all the effort you went through in trying to help him.  I read both you messages, but thought I'd reply to this one first.  I have no specific reason why he died, but I extremely doubt it was because you prepared the Erythromycin solution last night and stored it in there fridge.  The worst thing they could have happened to the medication would have been that it lost some of its effectiveness, but that wouldn't have adversely affect him like this. 

       

      Don't blame yourself if that's what you think, as the only thing that an inadequately strong medication would do would be to allow the disease to advance slightly.  That would only mean that the disease would take a bit longer to completely cure.  Of course, that could (but not necessarily) also allow for a mutation of the disease to develop, making it harder to cure the disease but that's not going to happen in a matter of hours. 

       

      While I wasn't there to see exactly how well (or how poorly) he was doing just before the PWC, and only know that he was sitting upright on the bottom of the tank -- since you said he was lying on the bottom of the tank after this last PWC (a marked difference) -- In my estimation, his constantly weakening state from not eating is what finally did him in.  I've seen enough fish that have gone on a temporary hunger strike and were no longer able to swim because of their weakened condition, only to have never been able to pull out of this condition and die despite regaining their appetite and eating well again. 

       

      Many just don't make it and while Carp (which would include Barbs) may do this on occasion and regain their abilities, the smaller the fish is the less likely it's system is able to cope with such malnutrition.  One major reason why I was hoping he'd start eating.  I also don't believe it was the disease itself that overwhelmed him as you did everything you could to combat it and I doubt he was battling it at all anymore.  Still, even if a fish is completely cured, the medications need to be continued for the full duration of the treatment to prevent a relapse, and you were continuing his treatment at this time.  I applaude your efforts and all the care you've shown!      

       

      Best regards,

       

      Ray

       

       

      In a message dated 2/2/2015 11:07:59 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

       

      He’s gone L

      Unbelievable…

      I’m sure it has to do with the last PWC about 3 hours ago. But I can’t think of the direct reason, I did everything exactly the same way as before.

      The only difference is that I prepared the Erythormycin solution last night and kept it in the fridge. It can’t be this.

      Noura L

      From: Noura T. [mailto:n-ocean@...]
      Sent: 02 شباط, 2015 12:46 م
      To: 'AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com'
      Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

      Hi Ray,

      The Barb went lying on his side right after the last PWC 2 hours ago. And he’s still like that.

      Test results are the same as last time.

      I matched the temperature for the added water and added the 3 medications, so not sure what’s wrong. He seemed okay before the change L

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 02 شباط, 2015 08:28 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

       

       

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56557 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 2/3/2015
      Subject: Re: Moving
      Hi Donna,

        I wrote out a list primarily for moving ornamental Carps several years ago but it may still be some use to you-I've copied it below in red. I'm unsure what you mean by the dirt?

      1. Siphon off just over a half bucket of water, bag [or jug] the fish & place them in it, then cling-film the top & stick a pen through several times for ventilation. Make sure the outside of the bucket is completely dry &  wrap the  cling film around the top several times gradually covering the top. Only put fish in this bucket so there is nothing to bump them.

      2. Siphon off another half bucket & into this one you place the filter*, large rocks, plants/decor etc-again cling-film the top to prevent spillage when in transit. This will keep the bio filter & cycle alive. *Only applies to internal & HOB filters-canister filters can simply be disconnected & transported full upright but plug the hose-ports with kitchen roll to prevent spillage.

      3. Siphon off nearly all the rest of the water just leaving enough to cover the gravel. Put the lid back on the  tank & tape it down. If small enough slide it onto a sturdy board & transport it that way, if too large just slide it onto a vehicle seat or flatbed using an old duvet cover to sit it on.

      4. If possible carry all buckets & especially that one containing the fish as low as possible in the vehicle to minimise water movement-preferably place the fish bucket between your feet in the front passenger foot-well so you can keep an eye on things at all times.

      5.Once at your new home you just put everything back together again-fish go in once everything is back in place then just top up with new treated tap water & the whole thing is nothing more than a glorified water change.

       The last thing you do in your old home before leaving is take down the tank & set it up is the first thing you do in your new home when you arrive. That way you minimise the amount of time the fish are in transit.


        John<o)))<

      On 3 February 2015 at 17:59, mdogsmom@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      I am moving 5 hrs away in the next couple of months and am trying to do some planning. 


      First, let me assure you that the fish and their homes will be moved in heated cars, not in the moving truck!


      I am taking a 55 gal community tank planted with low light plants. The morning the movers come

      I plan to move the fish into heavy plastic tubs with lids. I plan to stop every couple of hours and

      run an airstone in each tub for a few min. I am not sure how to get the dirt and fish

      comfortable in their new home? Should I plan on the first night just getting the driftwood,

      fish and plants into the tank? Should I add plan to soak the dirt in tubs and add it to the 

      tank over several days? To make it easier/less stressful on the fish should I get the driftwood

      and plants out of the tank a day or 2 before the move? 


      I am also moving 2 male betta fish. For the drive would it be safe to put them in zip lock bags?


      Thanks for any and all advice!


      Donna



      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56558 From: sevenspringss Date: 2/3/2015
      Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
      AOL Email
      Hi Noura,
       
      Your pics have been approved.  John can (and did) approve photos.  He's another moderator here, and beat me to it this time < g >.
       
      Ray 
       
       
      In a message dated 2/3/2015 6:43:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Here’s my big boy Smoky.. He’s a monster J

      I wanted to take pics of the Clown Loach, but they were sleeping. He/she likes to hide in those caves, especially at night, like now.

      (It could take a while before the new photos are approved)

      https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/AquaticLife/photos/albums/1956468285

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 04 شباط, 2015 01:05 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

      Oh thank you John J

      I sure will!

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 04 شباط, 2015 12:41 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

      Hi Noura,

        I just looked at Smoky as a baby-you must be very proud of him he's a great looking fish. I'd be interested to see what he looks like now if you can post some pictures anytime.

        John<o)))<

      On 3 February 2015 at 09:05, 'Noura T.' n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      :-D

      His baby pics are in the photos section!

      I think the folder is Noura’s tanks , or something like that. He was tinyyy!

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 03 شباط, 2015 01:35 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

      Smoky is a big boy!

        John<o)))<

      On 2 February 2015 at 18:55, 'Noura T.' n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Thanks for your kind words, Ray. And for all your, and John’s help.

      Exactly, he was sitting upright just before the water change, and breathing at an almost normal rate. And went lying on his side immediately after it.

      I’ve been turning this in my head all day… I know I did everything I could, but I really had high hopes for him after his condition stabilized.

      Your thoughts about the extreme weakness made me think that maybe the water movement while I was adding the new water have exhausted him completely, and beyond recovery. I wasn’t pouring water directly and heavily, I have put a 500 ml cup on the tank’s bottom and poured the new water in it so that water spilled from all its edges like a round fountain. Still, I noticed there were some currents that dragged Silver around a little in the tiny tank.

      I examined the tank very carefully today before changing water, and there were no droppings at all. It could well be that he hasn’t eaten in a week. Sigh…

      Last time I had to medicate a fish so intensely was with a smoky Anglefish, about 3 or 4 years ago. The hospital tank was barely deep enough for his rotten fins length. He had a really bad case of fin rot and wounds due to fighting for 5 minutes with the black Angelfish. His fins almost reached the flesh in places where they were torn. I had to medicate him for 8 weeks, with extensive PWCs “He was 3” long”. But he came around beautifully. I still have him now in the 20 G with a small Pleco and one survivor Clown Loach. Smoky is now more than 25 cm tall!

      We don’t get to win the fight everytime.. eh..

      Now I have to tell my mom L.

      Her tank is empty now. Anything to do to disinfect it before she gets any new fish?

      Thanks for your valuable help though this!

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 02 شباط, 2015 06:42 م
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

      Hi Noura.

      I'm so sorry to hear that this fish didn't make it, especially after all the effort you went through in trying to help him.  I read both you messages, but thought I'd reply to this one first.  I have no specific reason why he died, but I extremely doubt it was because you prepared the Erythromycin solution last night and stored it in there fridge.  The worst thing they could have happened to the medication would have been that it lost some of its effectiveness, but that wouldn't have adversely affect him like this. 

      Don't blame yourself if that's what you think, as the only thing that an inadequately strong medication would do would be to allow the disease to advance slightly.  That would only mean that the disease would take a bit longer to completely cure.  Of course, that could (but not necessarily) also allow for a mutation of the disease to develop, making it harder to cure the disease but that's not going to happen in a matter of hours. 

      While I wasn't there to see exactly how well (or how poorly) he was doing just before the PWC, and only know that he was sitting upright on the bottom of the tank -- since you said he was lying on the bottom of the tank after this last PWC (a marked difference) -- In my estimation, his constantly weakening state from not eating is what finally did him in.  I've seen enough fish that have gone on a temporary hunger strike and were no longer able to swim because of their weakened condition, only to have never been able to pull out of this condition and die despite regaining their appetite and eating well again. 

      Many just don't make it and while Carp (which would include Barbs) may do this on occasion and regain their abilities, the smaller the fish is the less likely it's system is able to cope with such malnutrition.  One major reason why I was hoping he'd start eating.  I also don't believe it was the disease itself that overwhelmed him as you did everything you could to combat it and I doubt he was battling it at all anymore.  Still, even if a fish is completely cured, the medications need to be continued for the full duration of the treatment to prevent a relapse, and you were continuing his treatment at this time.  I applaude your efforts and all the care you've shown!      

      Best regards,

      Ray

      In a message dated 2/2/2015 11:07:59 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

       

      He’s gone L

      Unbelievable…

      I’m sure it has to do with the last PWC about 3 hours ago. But I can’t think of the direct reason, I did everything exactly the same way as before.

      The only difference is that I prepared the Erythormycin solution last night and kept it in the fridge. It can’t be this.

      Noura L

      From: Noura T. [mailto:n-ocean@...]
      Sent: 02 شباط, 2015 12:46 م
      To: 'AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com'
      Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

      Hi Ray,

      The Barb went lying on his side right after the last PWC 2 hours ago. And he’s still like that.

      Test results are the same as last time.

      I matched the temperature for the added water and added the 3 medications, so not sure what’s wrong. He seemed okay before the change L

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 02 شباط, 2015 08:28 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56559 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 2/3/2015
      Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
      Hi Noura,

        It took under 10 minutes to approve your photos, they were already approved when I looked-someone is on the ball! Thanks for replying so fast-Smoky is a great looking fish, are they nocturnal? I don't know a lot about Angels, are they tame & can they get to feed from your hand?

      I remember several years before I got fish seeing a tropical community tank in an old folks home & I was very taken with one particular fish in that tank which I now know to be a Clown Loach. I loved the way it stood on it's front fins like it was paying attention to something. This particular fish would dig a hole in the gravel & build all the stones up in a pile next to the hole-does your do that?

        John<o)))<

      On 3 February 2015 at 23:41, 'Noura T.' n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      Here’s my big boy Smoky.. He’s a monster J

      I wanted to take pics of the Clown Loach, but they were sleeping. He/she likes to hide in those caves, especially at night, like now.

       

      (It could take a while before the new photos are approved)

       

      https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/AquaticLife/photos/albums/1956468285

       

       

      Noura

       

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 04 شباط, 2015 01:05 ص


      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

       

      Oh thank you John J

      I sure will!

       

      Noura

       

       

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 04 شباط, 2015 12:41 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

       

      Hi Noura,

        I just looked at Smoky as a baby-you must be very proud of him he's a great looking fish. I'd be interested to see what he looks like now if you can post some pictures anytime.

        John<o)))<

       

      On 3 February 2015 at 09:05, 'Noura T.' n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      :-D

      His baby pics are in the photos section!

      I think the folder is Noura’s tanks , or something like that. He was tinyyy!

       

      Noura

       

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 03 شباط, 2015 01:35 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

       

      Smoky is a big boy!

        John<o)))<

       

      On 2 February 2015 at 18:55, 'Noura T.' n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Thanks for your kind words, Ray. And for all your, and John’s help.

      Exactly, he was sitting upright just before the water change, and breathing at an almost normal rate. And went lying on his side immediately after it.

      I’ve been turning this in my head all day… I know I did everything I could, but I really had high hopes for him after his condition stabilized.

      Your thoughts about the extreme weakness made me think that maybe the water movement while I was adding the new water have exhausted him completely, and beyond recovery. I wasn’t pouring water directly and heavily, I have put a 500 ml cup on the tank’s bottom and poured the new water in it so that water spilled from all its edges like a round fountain. Still, I noticed there were some currents that dragged Silver around a little in the tiny tank.

      I examined the tank very carefully today before changing water, and there were no droppings at all. It could well be that he hasn’t eaten in a week. Sigh…

       

      Last time I had to medicate a fish so intensely was with a smoky Anglefish, about 3 or 4 years ago. The hospital tank was barely deep enough for his rotten fins length. He had a really bad case of fin rot and wounds due to fighting for 5 minutes with the black Angelfish. His fins almost reached the flesh in places where they were torn. I had to medicate him for 8 weeks, with extensive PWCs “He was 3” long”. But he came around beautifully. I still have him now in the 20 G with a small Pleco and one survivor Clown Loach. Smoky is now more than 25 cm tall!

       

      We don’t get to win the fight everytime.. eh..

      Now I have to tell my mom L.

      Her tank is empty now. Anything to do to disinfect it before she gets any new fish?

       

      Thanks for your valuable help though this!

      Noura

       

       

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 02 شباط, 2015 06:42 م
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

       

      Hi Noura.

       

      I'm so sorry to hear that this fish didn't make it, especially after all the effort you went through in trying to help him.  I read both you messages, but thought I'd reply to this one first.  I have no specific reason why he died, but I extremely doubt it was because you prepared the Erythromycin solution last night and stored it in there fridge.  The worst thing they could have happened to the medication would have been that it lost some of its effectiveness, but that wouldn't have adversely affect him like this. 

       

      Don't blame yourself if that's what you think, as the only thing that an inadequately strong medication would do would be to allow the disease to advance slightly.  That would only mean that the disease would take a bit longer to completely cure.  Of course, that could (but not necessarily) also allow for a mutation of the disease to develop, making it harder to cure the disease but that's not going to happen in a matter of hours. 

       

      While I wasn't there to see exactly how well (or how poorly) he was doing just before the PWC, and only know that he was sitting upright on the bottom of the tank -- since you said he was lying on the bottom of the tank after this last PWC (a marked difference) -- In my estimation, his constantly weakening state from not eating is what finally did him in.  I've seen enough fish that have gone on a temporary hunger strike and were no longer able to swim because of their weakened condition, only to have never been able to pull out of this condition and die despite regaining their appetite and eating well again. 

       

      Many just don't make it and while Carp (which would include Barbs) may do this on occasion and regain their abilities, the smaller the fish is the less likely it's system is able to cope with such malnutrition.  One major reason why I was hoping he'd start eating.  I also don't believe it was the disease itself that overwhelmed him as you did everything you could to combat it and I doubt he was battling it at all anymore.  Still, even if a fish is completely cured, the medications need to be continued for the full duration of the treatment to prevent a relapse, and you were continuing his treatment at this time.  I applaude your efforts and all the care you've shown!      

       

      Best regards,

       

      Ray

       

       

      In a message dated 2/2/2015 11:07:59 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

       

      He’s gone L

      Unbelievable…

      I’m sure it has to do with the last PWC about 3 hours ago. But I can’t think of the direct reason, I did everything exactly the same way as before.

      The only difference is that I prepared the Erythormycin solution last night and kept it in the fridge. It can’t be this.

      Noura L

      From: Noura T. [mailto:n-ocean@...]
      Sent: 02 شباط, 2015 12:46 م
      To: 'AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com'
      Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

      Hi Ray,

      The Barb went lying on his side right after the last PWC 2 hours ago. And he’s still like that.

      Test results are the same as last time.

      I matched the temperature for the added water and added the 3 medications, so not sure what’s wrong. He seemed okay before the change L

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 02 شباط, 2015 08:28 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

       

       


      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56560 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 2/3/2015
      Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
      Ray-I didn't realise I had approved them-I thought you did!

        John<o)))<

      On 3 February 2015 at 23:57, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      Hi Noura,
       
      Your pics have been approved.  John can (and did) approve photos.  He's another moderator here, and beat me to it this time < g >.
       
      Ray 
       
       
      In a message dated 2/3/2015 6:43:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Here’s my big boy Smoky.. He’s a monster J

      I wanted to take pics of the Clown Loach, but they were sleeping. He/she likes to hide in those caves, especially at night, like now.

      (It could take a while before the new photos are approved)

      https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/AquaticLife/photos/albums/1956468285

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 04 شباط, 2015 01:05 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

      Oh thank you John J

      I sure will!

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 04 شباط, 2015 12:41 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

      Hi Noura,

        I just looked at Smoky as a baby-you must be very proud of him he's a great looking fish. I'd be interested to see what he looks like now if you can post some pictures anytime.

        John<o)))<

      On 3 February 2015 at 09:05, 'Noura T.' n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      :-D

      His baby pics are in the photos section!

      I think the folder is Noura’s tanks , or something like that. He was tinyyy!

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 03 شباط, 2015 01:35 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

      Smoky is a big boy!

        John<o)))<

      On 2 February 2015 at 18:55, 'Noura T.' n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Thanks for your kind words, Ray. And for all your, and John’s help.

      Exactly, he was sitting upright just before the water change, and breathing at an almost normal rate. And went lying on his side immediately after it.

      I’ve been turning this in my head all day… I know I did everything I could, but I really had high hopes for him after his condition stabilized.

      Your thoughts about the extreme weakness made me think that maybe the water movement while I was adding the new water have exhausted him completely, and beyond recovery. I wasn’t pouring water directly and heavily, I have put a 500 ml cup on the tank’s bottom and poured the new water in it so that water spilled from all its edges like a round fountain. Still, I noticed there were some currents that dragged Silver around a little in the tiny tank.

      I examined the tank very carefully today before changing water, and there were no droppings at all. It could well be that he hasn’t eaten in a week. Sigh…

      Last time I had to medicate a fish so intensely was with a smoky Anglefish, about 3 or 4 years ago. The hospital tank was barely deep enough for his rotten fins length. He had a really bad case of fin rot and wounds due to fighting for 5 minutes with the black Angelfish. His fins almost reached the flesh in places where they were torn. I had to medicate him for 8 weeks, with extensive PWCs “He was 3” long”. But he came around beautifully. I still have him now in the 20 G with a small Pleco and one survivor Clown Loach. Smoky is now more than 25 cm tall!

      We don’t get to win the fight everytime.. eh..

      Now I have to tell my mom L.

      Her tank is empty now. Anything to do to disinfect it before she gets any new fish?

      Thanks for your valuable help though this!

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 02 شباط, 2015 06:42 م
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

      Hi Noura.

      I'm so sorry to hear that this fish didn't make it, especially after all the effort you went through in trying to help him.  I read both you messages, but thought I'd reply to this one first.  I have no specific reason why he died, but I extremely doubt it was because you prepared the Erythromycin solution last night and stored it in there fridge.  The worst thing they could have happened to the medication would have been that it lost some of its effectiveness, but that wouldn't have adversely affect him like this. 

      Don't blame yourself if that's what you think, as the only thing that an inadequately strong medication would do would be to allow the disease to advance slightly.  That would only mean that the disease would take a bit longer to completely cure.  Of course, that could (but not necessarily) also allow for a mutation of the disease to develop, making it harder to cure the disease but that's not going to happen in a matter of hours. 

      While I wasn't there to see exactly how well (or how poorly) he was doing just before the PWC, and only know that he was sitting upright on the bottom of the tank -- since you said he was lying on the bottom of the tank after this last PWC (a marked difference) -- In my estimation, his constantly weakening state from not eating is what finally did him in.  I've seen enough fish that have gone on a temporary hunger strike and were no longer able to swim because of their weakened condition, only to have never been able to pull out of this condition and die despite regaining their appetite and eating well again. 

      Many just don't make it and while Carp (which would include Barbs) may do this on occasion and regain their abilities, the smaller the fish is the less likely it's system is able to cope with such malnutrition.  One major reason why I was hoping he'd start eating.  I also don't believe it was the disease itself that overwhelmed him as you did everything you could to combat it and I doubt he was battling it at all anymore.  Still, even if a fish is completely cured, the medications need to be continued for the full duration of the treatment to prevent a relapse, and you were continuing his treatment at this time.  I applaude your efforts and all the care you've shown!      

      Best regards,

      Ray

      In a message dated 2/2/2015 11:07:59 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

       

      He’s gone L

      Unbelievable…

      I’m sure it has to do with the last PWC about 3 hours ago. But I can’t think of the direct reason, I did everything exactly the same way as before.

      The only difference is that I prepared the Erythormycin solution last night and kept it in the fridge. It can’t be this.

      Noura L

      From: Noura T. [mailto:n-ocean@...]
      Sent: 02 شباط, 2015 12:46 م
      To: 'AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com'
      Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

      Hi Ray,

      The Barb went lying on his side right after the last PWC 2 hours ago. And he’s still like that.

      Test results are the same as last time.

      I matched the temperature for the added water and added the 3 medications, so not sure what’s wrong. He seemed okay before the change L

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 02 شباط, 2015 08:28 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       


      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56561 From: Noura T. Date: 2/3/2015
      Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
      Lol


      Well, thank you both!


      Have you seen Smoky?





      I also uploaded a pic of Silver “The Rosy Barb”.





      Noura





      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 04 شباط, 2015 01:57 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb










      Hi Noura,





      Your pics have been approved. John can (and did) approve photos. He's another moderator here, and beat me to it this time < g >.





      Ray








      In a message dated 2/3/2015 6:43:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:





      Here’s my big boy Smoky.. He’s a monster J


      I wanted to take pics of the Clown Loach, but they were sleeping. He/she likes to hide in those caves, especially at night, like now.


      (It could take a while before the new photos are approved)


      https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/AquaticLife/photos/albums/1956468285


      Noura


      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 04 شباط, 2015 01:05 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb





      Oh thank you John J


      I sure will!


      Noura


      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 04 شباط, 2015 12:41 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb





      Hi Noura,


      I just looked at Smoky as a baby-you must be very proud of him he's a great looking fish. I'd be interested to see what he looks like now if you can post some pictures anytime.


      John<o)))<


      On 3 February 2015 at 09:05, 'Noura T.' n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:





      :-D


      His baby pics are in the photos section!


      I think the folder is Noura’s tanks , or something like that. He was tinyyy!


      Noura


      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 03 شباط, 2015 01:35 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb





      Smoky is a big boy!


      John<o)))<


      On 2 February 2015 at 18:55, 'Noura T.' n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:





      Thanks for your kind words, Ray. And for all your, and John’s help.


      Exactly, he was sitting upright just before the water change, and breathing at an almost normal rate. And went lying on his side immediately after it.


      I’ve been turning this in my head all day… I know I did everything I could, but I really had high hopes for him after his condition stabilized.


      Your thoughts about the extreme weakness made me think that maybe the water movement while I was adding the new water have exhausted him completely, and beyond recovery. I wasn’t pouring water directly and heavily, I have put a 500 ml cup on the tank’s bottom and poured the new water in it so that water spilled from all its edges like a round fountain. Still, I noticed there were some currents that dragged Silver around a little in the tiny tank.


      I examined the tank very carefully today before changing water, and there were no droppings at all. It could well be that he hasn’t eaten in a week. Sigh…


      Last time I had to medicate a fish so intensely was with a smoky Anglefish, about 3 or 4 years ago. The hospital tank was barely deep enough for his rotten fins length. He had a really bad case of fin rot and wounds due to fighting for 5 minutes with the black Angelfish. His fins almost reached the flesh in places where they were torn. I had to medicate him for 8 weeks, with extensive PWCs “He was 3” long”. But he came around beautifully. I still have him now in the 20 G with a small Pleco and one survivor Clown Loach. Smoky is now more than 25 cm tall!


      We don’t get to win the fight everytime.. eh..


      Now I have to tell my mom L.


      Her tank is empty now. Anything to do to disinfect it before she gets any new fish?


      Thanks for your valuable help though this!


      Noura


      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 02 شباط, 2015 06:42 م
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb







      Hi Noura.



      I'm so sorry to hear that this fish didn't make it, especially after all the effort you went through in trying to help him. I read both you messages, but thought I'd reply to this one first. I have no specific reason why he died, but I extremely doubt it was because you prepared the Erythromycin solution last night and stored it in there fridge. The worst thing they could have happened to the medication would have been that it lost some of its effectiveness, but that wouldn't have adversely affect him like this.


      Don't blame yourself if that's what you think, as the only thing that an inadequately strong medication would do would be to allow the disease to advance slightly. That would only mean that the disease would take a bit longer to completely cure. Of course, that could (but not necessarily) also allow for a mutation of the disease to develop, making it harder to cure the disease but that's not going to happen in a matter of hours.


      While I wasn't there to see exactly how well (or how poorly) he was doing just before the PWC, and only know that he was sitting upright on the bottom of the tank -- since you said he was lying on the bottom of the tank after this last PWC (a marked difference) -- In my estimation, his constantly weakening state from not eating is what finally did him in. I've seen enough fish that have gone on a temporary hunger strike and were no longer able to swim because of their weakened condition, only to have never been able to pull out of this condition and die despite regaining their appetite and eating well again.


      Many just don't make it and while Carp (which would include Barbs) may do this on occasion and regain their abilities, the smaller the fish is the less likely it's system is able to cope with such malnutrition. One major reason why I was hoping he'd start eating. I also don't believe it was the disease itself that overwhelmed him as you did everything you could to combat it and I doubt he was battling it at all anymore. Still, even if a fish is completely cured, the medications need to be continued for the full duration of the treatment to prevent a relapse, and you were continuing his treatment at this time. I applaude your efforts and all the care you've shown!


      Best regards,


      Ray


      In a message dated 2/2/2015 11:07:59 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:





      He’s gone L


      Unbelievable…


      I’m sure it has to do with the last PWC about 3 hours ago. But I can’t think of the direct reason, I did everything exactly the same way as before.


      The only difference is that I prepared the Erythormycin solution last night and kept it in the fridge. It can’t be this.


      Noura L


      From: Noura T. [mailto:n-ocean@...]
      Sent: 02 شباط, 2015 12:46 م
      To: 'AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com'
      Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb


      Hi Ray,


      The Barb went lying on his side right after the last PWC 2 hours ago. And he’s still like that.


      Test results are the same as last time.


      I matched the temperature for the added water and added the 3 medications, so not sure what’s wrong. He seemed okay before the change L


      Noura


      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 02 شباط, 2015 08:28 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb













      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56562 From: Noura T. Date: 2/3/2015
      Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

      Hi John,

      The Angelfish is not nocturnal, I turned the lights on to take these pics and he remained asleep for 2 more minutes! I only realized it because he didn’t move to me lol

      When I tapped on the glass gently, he woke up! I don’t know how tame fish can be (other than Goldfish), but almost all of them will take food from my finger at the surface, they would happily eat my finger as well if they could! Lol

      Yes the Clown Loach is a very funny fish! He has takes weirdest positions! They would gather behind rocks like a fish pile when there were several young ones.

      He can stand upside down in a corner, empties his caves from small shells that somehow got in, makes clicking sounds when eating flakes or lettuce, and yes.. he digs the gravel and moves it around. I noticed he’s digging a long hole inside the cave, maybe to accommodate his growing height. I never imagined he will get this big when I made those caves!

      He’s HUGE… almost as long as Smoky “excluding the tail”, but I know he could get much bigger. (He or she, I don’t know)

      I used to exchange my growing fish for smaller ones at the petshop before, but in these tough circumstances I haven’t changed anything. Haven’t replaced dead fish, and also I didn’t want to take the big ones to the shop, because I knew there’s a very slim chance for them to be properly taken care of in another home.

       

      So, we’re sticking together for the time being J

      There are only 3 fish in the 20 G.

       

      Noura

       

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 04 شباط, 2015 02:06 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

       

      Hi Noura,

        It took under 10 minutes to approve your photos, they were already approved when I looked-someone is on the ball! Thanks for replying so fast-Smoky is a great looking fish, are they nocturnal? I don't know a lot about Angels, are they tame & can they get to feed from your hand?

      I remember several years before I got fish seeing a tropical community tank in an old folks home & I was very taken with one particular fish in that tank which I now know to be a Clown Loach. I loved the way it stood on it's front fins like it was paying attention to something. This particular fish would dig a hole in the gravel & build all the stones up in a pile next to the hole-does your do that?

        John<o)))<

       

      On 3 February 2015 at 23:41, 'Noura T.' n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Here’s my big boy Smoky.. He’s a monster J

      I wanted to take pics of the Clown Loach, but they were sleeping. He/she likes to hide in those caves, especially at night, like now.

       

      (It could take a while before the new photos are approved)

       

      https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/AquaticLife/photos/albums/1956468285

       

       

      Noura

       

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 04 شباط, 2015 01:05 ص


      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

       

      Oh thank you John J

      I sure will!

       

      Noura

       

       

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 04 شباط, 2015 12:41 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

       

      Hi Noura,

        I just looked at Smoky as a baby-you must be very proud of him he's a great looking fish. I'd be interested to see what he looks like now if you can post some pictures anytime.

        John<o)))<

       

      On 3 February 2015 at 09:05, 'Noura T.' n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      :-D

      His baby pics are in the photos section!

      I think the folder is Noura’s tanks , or something like that. He was tinyyy!

       

      Noura

       

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 03 شباط, 2015 01:35 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

       

      Smoky is a big boy!

        John<o)))<

       

      On 2 February 2015 at 18:55, 'Noura T.' n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Thanks for your kind words, Ray. And for all your, and John’s help.

      Exactly, he was sitting upright just before the water change, and breathing at an almost normal rate. And went lying on his side immediately after it.

      I’ve been turning this in my head all day… I know I did everything I could, but I really had high hopes for him after his condition stabilized.

      Your thoughts about the extreme weakness made me think that maybe the water movement while I was adding the new water have exhausted him completely, and beyond recovery. I wasn’t pouring water directly and heavily, I have put a 500 ml cup on the tank’s bottom and poured the new water in it so that water spilled from all its edges like a round fountain. Still, I noticed there were some currents that dragged Silver around a little in the tiny tank.

      I examined the tank very carefully today before changing water, and there were no droppings at all. It could well be that he hasn’t eaten in a week. Sigh…

       

      Last time I had to medicate a fish so intensely was with a smoky Anglefish, about 3 or 4 years ago. The hospital tank was barely deep enough for his rotten fins length. He had a really bad case of fin rot and wounds due to fighting for 5 minutes with the black Angelfish. His fins almost reached the flesh in places where they were torn. I had to medicate him for 8 weeks, with extensive PWCs “He was 3” long”. But he came around beautifully. I still have him now in the 20 G with a small Pleco and one survivor Clown Loach. Smoky is now more than 25 cm tall!

       

      We don’t get to win the fight everytime.. eh..

      Now I have to tell my mom L.

      Her tank is empty now. Anything to do to disinfect it before she gets any new fish?

       

      Thanks for your valuable help though this!

      Noura

       

       

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 02 شباط, 2015 06:42 م
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

       

      Hi Noura.

       

      I'm so sorry to hear that this fish didn't make it, especially after all the effort you went through in trying to help him.  I read both you messages, but thought I'd reply to this one first.  I have no specific reason why he died, but I extremely doubt it was because you prepared the Erythromycin solution last night and stored it in there fridge.  The worst thing they could have happened to the medication would have been that it lost some of its effectiveness, but that wouldn't have adversely affect him like this. 

       

      Don't blame yourself if that's what you think, as the only thing that an inadequately strong medication would do would be to allow the disease to advance slightly.  That would only mean that the disease would take a bit longer to completely cure.  Of course, that could (but not necessarily) also allow for a mutation of the disease to develop, making it harder to cure the disease but that's not going to happen in a matter of hours. 

       

      While I wasn't there to see exactly how well (or how poorly) he was doing just before the PWC, and only know that he was sitting upright on the bottom of the tank -- since you said he was lying on the bottom of the tank after this last PWC (a marked difference) -- In my estimation, his constantly weakening state from not eating is what finally did him in.  I've seen enough fish that have gone on a temporary hunger strike and were no longer able to swim because of their weakened condition, only to have never been able to pull out of this condition and die despite regaining their appetite and eating well again. 

       

      Many just don't make it and while Carp (which would include Barbs) may do this on occasion and regain their abilities, the smaller the fish is the less likely it's system is able to cope with such malnutrition.  One major reason why I was hoping he'd start eating.  I also don't believe it was the disease itself that overwhelmed him as you did everything you could to combat it and I doubt he was battling it at all anymore.  Still, even if a fish is completely cured, the medications need to be continued for the full duration of the treatment to prevent a relapse, and you were continuing his treatment at this time.  I applaude your efforts and all the care you've shown!      

       

      Best regards,

       

      Ray

       

       

      In a message dated 2/2/2015 11:07:59 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

       

      He’s gone L

      Unbelievable…

      I’m sure it has to do with the last PWC about 3 hours ago. But I can’t think of the direct reason, I did everything exactly the same way as before.

      The only difference is that I prepared the Erythormycin solution last night and kept it in the fridge. It can’t be this.

      Noura L

      From: Noura T. [mailto:n-ocean@...]
      Sent: 02 شباط, 2015 12:46 م
      To: 'AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com'
      Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

      Hi Ray,

      The Barb went lying on his side right after the last PWC 2 hours ago. And he’s still like that.

      Test results are the same as last time.

      I matched the temperature for the added water and added the 3 medications, so not sure what’s wrong. He seemed okay before the change L

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 02 شباط, 2015 08:28 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

       

       

       

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56563 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 2/3/2015
      Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
      Hi Noura,

        Those Clown Loaches are a riot! Very interesting fish to watch so I know what I'll be getting if I ever decide to set up a tropical tank. I wondered if Smoky was tame because he seems to be saying "feed me" on that close up shot where he's posing for the camera. Nice to see what Silver looked like-did he change colour or was he always silver? I guess most fish have the genetics to change colour over time-I'm only used to seeing Goldfish & Koi do this.

        John<o)))<

      On 4 February 2015 at 00:19, 'Noura T.' n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      Hi John,

      The Angelfish is not nocturnal, I turned the lights on to take these pics and he remained asleep for 2 more minutes! I only realized it because he didn’t move to me lol

      When I tapped on the glass gently, he woke up! I don’t know how tame fish can be (other than Goldfish), but almost all of them will take food from my finger at the surface, they would happily eat my finger as well if they could! Lol

      Yes the Clown Loach is a very funny fish! He has takes weirdest positions! They would gather behind rocks like a fish pile when there were several young ones.

      He can stand upside down in a corner, empties his caves from small shells that somehow got in, makes clicking sounds when eating flakes or lettuce, and yes.. he digs the gravel and moves it around. I noticed he’s digging a long hole inside the cave, maybe to accommodate his growing height. I never imagined he will get this big when I made those caves!

      He’s HUGE… almost as long as Smoky “excluding the tail”, but I know he could get much bigger. (He or she, I don’t know)

      I used to exchange my growing fish for smaller ones at the petshop before, but in these tough circumstances I haven’t changed anything. Haven’t replaced dead fish, and also I didn’t want to take the big ones to the shop, because I knew there’s a very slim chance for them to be properly taken care of in another home.

       

      So, we’re sticking together for the time being J

      There are only 3 fish in the 20 G.

       

      Noura

       

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 04 شباط, 2015 02:06 ص


      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

       

      Hi Noura,

        It took under 10 minutes to approve your photos, they were already approved when I looked-someone is on the ball! Thanks for replying so fast-Smoky is a great looking fish, are they nocturnal? I don't know a lot about Angels, are they tame & can they get to feed from your hand?

      I remember several years before I got fish seeing a tropical community tank in an old folks home & I was very taken with one particular fish in that tank which I now know to be a Clown Loach. I loved the way it stood on it's front fins like it was paying attention to something. This particular fish would dig a hole in the gravel & build all the stones up in a pile next to the hole-does your do that?

        John<o)))<

       

      On 3 February 2015 at 23:41, 'Noura T.' n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Here’s my big boy Smoky.. He’s a monster J

      I wanted to take pics of the Clown Loach, but they were sleeping. He/she likes to hide in those caves, especially at night, like now.

       

      (It could take a while before the new photos are approved)

       

      https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/AquaticLife/photos/albums/1956468285

       

       

      Noura

       

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 04 شباط, 2015 01:05 ص


      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

       

      Oh thank you John J

      I sure will!

       

      Noura

       

       

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 04 شباط, 2015 12:41 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

       

      Hi Noura,

        I just looked at Smoky as a baby-you must be very proud of him he's a great looking fish. I'd be interested to see what he looks like now if you can post some pictures anytime.

        John<o)))<

       

      On 3 February 2015 at 09:05, 'Noura T.' n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      :-D

      His baby pics are in the photos section!

      I think the folder is Noura’s tanks , or something like that. He was tinyyy!

       

      Noura

       

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 03 شباط, 2015 01:35 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

       

      Smoky is a big boy!

        John<o)))<

       

      On 2 February 2015 at 18:55, 'Noura T.' n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Thanks for your kind words, Ray. And for all your, and John’s help.

      Exactly, he was sitting upright just before the water change, and breathing at an almost normal rate. And went lying on his side immediately after it.

      I’ve been turning this in my head all day… I know I did everything I could, but I really had high hopes for him after his condition stabilized.

      Your thoughts about the extreme weakness made me think that maybe the water movement while I was adding the new water have exhausted him completely, and beyond recovery. I wasn’t pouring water directly and heavily, I have put a 500 ml cup on the tank’s bottom and poured the new water in it so that water spilled from all its edges like a round fountain. Still, I noticed there were some currents that dragged Silver around a little in the tiny tank.

      I examined the tank very carefully today before changing water, and there were no droppings at all. It could well be that he hasn’t eaten in a week. Sigh…

       

      Last time I had to medicate a fish so intensely was with a smoky Anglefish, about 3 or 4 years ago. The hospital tank was barely deep enough for his rotten fins length. He had a really bad case of fin rot and wounds due to fighting for 5 minutes with the black Angelfish. His fins almost reached the flesh in places where they were torn. I had to medicate him for 8 weeks, with extensive PWCs “He was 3” long”. But he came around beautifully. I still have him now in the 20 G with a small Pleco and one survivor Clown Loach. Smoky is now more than 25 cm tall!

       

      We don’t get to win the fight everytime.. eh..

      Now I have to tell my mom L.

      Her tank is empty now. Anything to do to disinfect it before she gets any new fish?

       

      Thanks for your valuable help though this!

      Noura

       

       

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 02 شباط, 2015 06:42 م
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

       

      Hi Noura.

       

      I'm so sorry to hear that this fish didn't make it, especially after all the effort you went through in trying to help him.  I read both you messages, but thought I'd reply to this one first.  I have no specific reason why he died, but I extremely doubt it was because you prepared the Erythromycin solution last night and stored it in there fridge.  The worst thing they could have happened to the medication would have been that it lost some of its effectiveness, but that wouldn't have adversely affect him like this. 

       

      Don't blame yourself if that's what you think, as the only thing that an inadequately strong medication would do would be to allow the disease to advance slightly.  That would only mean that the disease would take a bit longer to completely cure.  Of course, that could (but not necessarily) also allow for a mutation of the disease to develop, making it harder to cure the disease but that's not going to happen in a matter of hours. 

       

      While I wasn't there to see exactly how well (or how poorly) he was doing just before the PWC, and only know that he was sitting upright on the bottom of the tank -- since you said he was lying on the bottom of the tank after this last PWC (a marked difference) -- In my estimation, his constantly weakening state from not eating is what finally did him in.  I've seen enough fish that have gone on a temporary hunger strike and were no longer able to swim because of their weakened condition, only to have never been able to pull out of this condition and die despite regaining their appetite and eating well again. 

       

      Many just don't make it and while Carp (which would include Barbs) may do this on occasion and regain their abilities, the smaller the fish is the less likely it's system is able to cope with such malnutrition.  One major reason why I was hoping he'd start eating.  I also don't believe it was the disease itself that overwhelmed him as you did everything you could to combat it and I doubt he was battling it at all anymore.  Still, even if a fish is completely cured, the medications need to be continued for the full duration of the treatment to prevent a relapse, and you were continuing his treatment at this time.  I applaude your efforts and all the care you've shown!      

       

      Best regards,

       

      Ray

       

       

      In a message dated 2/2/2015 11:07:59 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

       

      He’s gone L

      Unbelievable…

      I’m sure it has to do with the last PWC about 3 hours ago. But I can’t think of the direct reason, I did everything exactly the same way as before.

      The only difference is that I prepared the Erythormycin solution last night and kept it in the fridge. It can’t be this.

      Noura L

      From: Noura T. [mailto:n-ocean@...]
      Sent: 02 شباط, 2015 12:46 م
      To: 'AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com'
      Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

      Hi Ray,

      The Barb went lying on his side right after the last PWC 2 hours ago. And he’s still like that.

      Test results are the same as last time.

      I matched the temperature for the added water and added the 3 medications, so not sure what’s wrong. He seemed okay before the change L

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 02 شباط, 2015 08:28 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

       

       

       


      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56564 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 2/3/2015
      Subject: Re: 29 gallon
      Hi Andy,


        I won't attempt to comment on your fish & stocking level/tank size as I know very little about those species so I'll leave that to the experts!

      However-when you said your water was discoloured my first thoughts were that you had some driftwood in there but looking at your photos that doesn't seem to be the case. I wonder if it's something to do with algae-diatoms perhaps, how long are your lights on each day & is the tank near any other light source or a window where sunlight may catch it?

      Regarding the filter pads, you are doing the right thing in rinsing in old tank water but I'm thinking you could get even more filtration out of your present filters. Is the carbon pad the same size as the regular ones you squeeze out? If so then you would be better off using more inert filter material in the space where the carbon pads are. This is because carbon pads don't attract nearly as much good bacteria as regular foam & generally you only need to use carbon in a tank if you are cleaning up after medication.

        John<o)))<

      On 3 February 2015 at 21:31, andy_peltier@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      I did upload some pics its under Andys 29 .


      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56565 From: Noura T. Date: 2/3/2015
      Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

      Hi John,

      Silver’s color was off during his illness. He was pink when healthy. The photo’s colors are even paler as it was taken by my tablet (not the best camera). In reality, there was still a hint of pink on his sides.

       

      On the other hand, Smoky always says “feed me”! lol

      If you noticed some irregular flow in the lines in his “side fins” (The closeup snap), that’s how short these fins were when he was injured and sick. Half of his tail has gone. I think it took about a year for him to grow everything to full length. He was such a fighter!

       

      Clown loaches are one of the most interesting fish I kept. I also loved Betas. But never had much success keeping them alive for longer than a year or two.

      I had a fish that turned its head sideways, left and right, examining the gravel. I can’t remember what kind of fish it was. I only remember how it took my breath away when it did that head tilting!

       

      Noura

       

       

       

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 04 شباط, 2015 02:35 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

       

      Hi Noura,

        Those Clown Loaches are a riot! Very interesting fish to watch so I know what I'll be getting if I ever decide to set up a tropical tank. I wondered if Smoky was tame because he seems to be saying "feed me" on that close up shot where he's posing for the camera. Nice to see what Silver looked like-did he change colour or was he always silver? I guess most fish have the genetics to change colour over time-I'm only used to seeing Goldfish & Koi do this.

        John<o)))<

       

      On 4 February 2015 at 00:19, 'Noura T.' n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Hi John,

      The Angelfish is not nocturnal, I turned the lights on to take these pics and he remained asleep for 2 more minutes! I only realized it because he didn’t move to me lol

      When I tapped on the glass gently, he woke up! I don’t know how tame fish can be (other than Goldfish), but almost all of them will take food from my finger at the surface, they would happily eat my finger as well if they could! Lol

      Yes the Clown Loach is a very funny fish! He has takes weirdest positions! They would gather behind rocks like a fish pile when there were several young ones.

      He can stand upside down in a corner, empties his caves from small shells that somehow got in, makes clicking sounds when eating flakes or lettuce, and yes.. he digs the gravel and moves it around. I noticed he’s digging a long hole inside the cave, maybe to accommodate his growing height. I never imagined he will get this big when I made those caves!

      He’s HUGE… almost as long as Smoky “excluding the tail”, but I know he could get much bigger. (He or she, I don’t know)

      I used to exchange my growing fish for smaller ones at the petshop before, but in these tough circumstances I haven’t changed anything. Haven’t replaced dead fish, and also I didn’t want to take the big ones to the shop, because I knew there’s a very slim chance for them to be properly taken care of in another home.

       

      So, we’re sticking together for the time being J

      There are only 3 fish in the 20 G.

       

      Noura

       

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 04 شباط, 2015 02:06 ص


      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

       

      Hi Noura,

        It took under 10 minutes to approve your photos, they were already approved when I looked-someone is on the ball! Thanks for replying so fast-Smoky is a great looking fish, are they nocturnal? I don't know a lot about Angels, are they tame & can they get to feed from your hand?

      I remember several years before I got fish seeing a tropical community tank in an old folks home & I was very taken with one particular fish in that tank which I now know to be a Clown Loach. I loved the way it stood on it's front fins like it was paying attention to something. This particular fish would dig a hole in the gravel & build all the stones up in a pile next to the hole-does your do that?

        John<o)))<

       

      On 3 February 2015 at 23:41, 'Noura T.' n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Here’s my big boy Smoky.. He’s a monster J

      I wanted to take pics of the Clown Loach, but they were sleeping. He/she likes to hide in those caves, especially at night, like now.

       

      (It could take a while before the new photos are approved)

       

      https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/AquaticLife/photos/albums/1956468285

       

       

      Noura

       

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 04 شباط, 2015 01:05 ص


      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

       

      Oh thank you John J

      I sure will!

       

      Noura

       

       

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 04 شباط, 2015 12:41 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

       

      Hi Noura,

        I just looked at Smoky as a baby-you must be very proud of him he's a great looking fish. I'd be interested to see what he looks like now if you can post some pictures anytime.

        John<o)))<

       

      On 3 February 2015 at 09:05, 'Noura T.' n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      :-D

      His baby pics are in the photos section!

      I think the folder is Noura’s tanks , or something like that. He was tinyyy!

       

      Noura

       

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 03 شباط, 2015 01:35 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

       

      Smoky is a big boy!

        John<o)))<

       

      On 2 February 2015 at 18:55, 'Noura T.' n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Thanks for your kind words, Ray. And for all your, and John’s help.

      Exactly, he was sitting upright just before the water change, and breathing at an almost normal rate. And went lying on his side immediately after it.

      I’ve been turning this in my head all day… I know I did everything I could, but I really had high hopes for him after his condition stabilized.

      Your thoughts about the extreme weakness made me think that maybe the water movement while I was adding the new water have exhausted him completely, and beyond recovery. I wasn’t pouring water directly and heavily, I have put a 500 ml cup on the tank’s bottom and poured the new water in it so that water spilled from all its edges like a round fountain. Still, I noticed there were some currents that dragged Silver around a little in the tiny tank.

      I examined the tank very carefully today before changing water, and there were no droppings at all. It could well be that he hasn’t eaten in a week. Sigh…

       

      Last time I had to medicate a fish so intensely was with a smoky Anglefish, about 3 or 4 years ago. The hospital tank was barely deep enough for his rotten fins length. He had a really bad case of fin rot and wounds due to fighting for 5 minutes with the black Angelfish. His fins almost reached the flesh in places where they were torn. I had to medicate him for 8 weeks, with extensive PWCs “He was 3” long”. But he came around beautifully. I still have him now in the 20 G with a small Pleco and one survivor Clown Loach. Smoky is now more than 25 cm tall!

       

      We don’t get to win the fight everytime.. eh..

      Now I have to tell my mom L.

      Her tank is empty now. Anything to do to disinfect it before she gets any new fish?

       

      Thanks for your valuable help though this!

      Noura

       

       

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 02 شباط, 2015 06:42 م
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

       

      Hi Noura.

       

      I'm so sorry to hear that this fish didn't make it, especially after all the effort you went through in trying to help him.  I read both you messages, but thought I'd reply to this one first.  I have no specific reason why he died, but I extremely doubt it was because you prepared the Erythromycin solution last night and stored it in there fridge.  The worst thing they could have happened to the medication would have been that it lost some of its effectiveness, but that wouldn't have adversely affect him like this. 

       

      Don't blame yourself if that's what you think, as the only thing that an inadequately strong medication would do would be to allow the disease to advance slightly.  That would only mean that the disease would take a bit longer to completely cure.  Of course, that could (but not necessarily) also allow for a mutation of the disease to develop, making it harder to cure the disease but that's not going to happen in a matter of hours. 

       

      While I wasn't there to see exactly how well (or how poorly) he was doing just before the PWC, and only know that he was sitting upright on the bottom of the tank -- since you said he was lying on the bottom of the tank after this last PWC (a marked difference) -- In my estimation, his constantly weakening state from not eating is what finally did him in.  I've seen enough fish that have gone on a temporary hunger strike and were no longer able to swim because of their weakened condition, only to have never been able to pull out of this condition and die despite regaining their appetite and eating well again. 

       

      Many just don't make it and while Carp (which would include Barbs) may do this on occasion and regain their abilities, the smaller the fish is the less likely it's system is able to cope with such malnutrition.  One major reason why I was hoping he'd start eating.  I also don't believe it was the disease itself that overwhelmed him as you did everything you could to combat it and I doubt he was battling it at all anymore.  Still, even if a fish is completely cured, the medications need to be continued for the full duration of the treatment to prevent a relapse, and you were continuing his treatment at this time.  I applaude your efforts and all the care you've shown!      

       

      Best regards,

       

      Ray

       

       

      In a message dated 2/2/2015 11:07:59 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

       

      He’s gone L

      Unbelievable…

      I’m sure it has to do with the last PWC about 3 hours ago. But I can’t think of the direct reason, I did everything exactly the same way as before.

      The only difference is that I prepared the Erythormycin solution last night and kept it in the fridge. It can’t be this.

      Noura L

      From: Noura T. [mailto:n-ocean@...]
      Sent: 02 شباط, 2015 12:46 م
      To: 'AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com'
      Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

      Hi Ray,

      The Barb went lying on his side right after the last PWC 2 hours ago. And he’s still like that.

      Test results are the same as last time.

      I matched the temperature for the added water and added the 3 medications, so not sure what’s wrong. He seemed okay before the change L

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 02 شباط, 2015 08:28 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

       

       

       

       

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56566 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 2/3/2015
      Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
      Hi Noura,

        I noticed the irregularities in Smoky's fins & wondered if it was from his injuries-it's quite amazing how fish can regenerate so much new tissue. Looking at the side view there appears to be a bump in the line of the top of his tail, was that where it regrew from? One of my Comets, Marmalade lost a huge section of his tail a couple of years ago. It cracked across the rays at the top immediately after the fin base & peeled away along the line of the rays. The missing section was 4 inches long x half an inch wide-almost the entire upper tail part. I swabbed it with iodine & that was that. Eight months later you would not have known anything was amiss except for a tiny mark where the split was as it regrew perfectly. It makes you very proud of your fish when they overcome such big setbacks.

      Your head tilting fish sounds wonderful but it doesn't surprise me, in the short time I've been interested in the hobby I've seen so many instances of great intelligence by these animals. I think their mental capacity is hugely under rated by most people.

        John<o)))<

      On 4 February 2015 at 00:45, 'Noura T.' n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      Hi John,

      Silver’s color was off during his illness. He was pink when healthy. The photo’s colors are even paler as it was taken by my tablet (not the best camera). In reality, there was still a hint of pink on his sides.

       

      On the other hand, Smoky always says “feed me”! lol

      If you noticed some irregular flow in the lines in his “side fins” (The closeup snap), that’s how short these fins were when he was injured and sick. Half of his tail has gone. I think it took about a year for him to grow everything to full length. He was such a fighter!

       

      Clown loaches are one of the most interesting fish I kept. I also loved Betas. But never had much success keeping them alive for longer than a year or two.

      I had a fish that turned its head sideways, left and right, examining the gravel. I can’t remember what kind of fish it was. I only remember how it took my breath away when it did that head tilting!

       

      Noura

       

       

       

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 04 شباط, 2015 02:35 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

       

      Hi Noura,

        Those Clown Loaches are a riot! Very interesting fish to watch so I know what I'll be getting if I ever decide to set up a tropical tank. I wondered if Smoky was tame because he seems to be saying "feed me" on that close up shot where he's posing for the camera. Nice to see what Silver looked like-did he change colour or was he always silver? I guess most fish have the genetics to change colour over time-I'm only used to seeing Goldfish & Koi do this.

        John<o)))<

       

      On 4 February 2015 at 00:19, 'Noura T.' n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Hi John,

      The Angelfish is not nocturnal, I turned the lights on to take these pics and he remained asleep for 2 more minutes! I only realized it because he didn’t move to me lol

      When I tapped on the glass gently, he woke up! I don’t know how tame fish can be (other than Goldfish), but almost all of them will take food from my finger at the surface, they would happily eat my finger as well if they could! Lol

      Yes the Clown Loach is a very funny fish! He has takes weirdest positions! They would gather behind rocks like a fish pile when there were several young ones.

      He can stand upside down in a corner, empties his caves from small shells that somehow got in, makes clicking sounds when eating flakes or lettuce, and yes.. he digs the gravel and moves it around. I noticed he’s digging a long hole inside the cave, maybe to accommodate his growing height. I never imagined he will get this big when I made those caves!

      He’s HUGE… almost as long as Smoky “excluding the tail”, but I know he could get much bigger. (He or she, I don’t know)

      I used to exchange my growing fish for smaller ones at the petshop before, but in these tough circumstances I haven’t changed anything. Haven’t replaced dead fish, and also I didn’t want to take the big ones to the shop, because I knew there’s a very slim chance for them to be properly taken care of in another home.

       

      So, we’re sticking together for the time being J

      There are only 3 fish in the 20 G.

       

      Noura

       

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 04 شباط, 2015 02:06 ص


      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

       

      Hi Noura,

        It took under 10 minutes to approve your photos, they were already approved when I looked-someone is on the ball! Thanks for replying so fast-Smoky is a great looking fish, are they nocturnal? I don't know a lot about Angels, are they tame & can they get to feed from your hand?

      I remember several years before I got fish seeing a tropical community tank in an old folks home & I was very taken with one particular fish in that tank which I now know to be a Clown Loach. I loved the way it stood on it's front fins like it was paying attention to something. This particular fish would dig a hole in the gravel & build all the stones up in a pile next to the hole-does your do that?

        John<o)))<

       

      On 3 February 2015 at 23:41, 'Noura T.' n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Here’s my big boy Smoky.. He’s a monster J

      I wanted to take pics of the Clown Loach, but they were sleeping. He/she likes to hide in those caves, especially at night, like now.

       

      (It could take a while before the new photos are approved)

       

      https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/AquaticLife/photos/albums/1956468285

       

       

      Noura

       

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 04 شباط, 2015 01:05 ص


      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

       

      Oh thank you John J

      I sure will!

       

      Noura

       

       

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 04 شباط, 2015 12:41 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

       

      Hi Noura,

        I just looked at Smoky as a baby-you must be very proud of him he's a great looking fish. I'd be interested to see what he looks like now if you can post some pictures anytime.

        John<o)))<

       

      On 3 February 2015 at 09:05, 'Noura T.' n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      :-D

      His baby pics are in the photos section!

      I think the folder is Noura’s tanks , or something like that. He was tinyyy!

       

      Noura

       

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 03 شباط, 2015 01:35 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

       

      Smoky is a big boy!

        John<o)))<

       

      On 2 February 2015 at 18:55, 'Noura T.' n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Thanks for your kind words, Ray. And for all your, and John’s help.

      Exactly, he was sitting upright just before the water change, and breathing at an almost normal rate. And went lying on his side immediately after it.

      I’ve been turning this in my head all day… I know I did everything I could, but I really had high hopes for him after his condition stabilized.

      Your thoughts about the extreme weakness made me think that maybe the water movement while I was adding the new water have exhausted him completely, and beyond recovery. I wasn’t pouring water directly and heavily, I have put a 500 ml cup on the tank’s bottom and poured the new water in it so that water spilled from all its edges like a round fountain. Still, I noticed there were some currents that dragged Silver around a little in the tiny tank.

      I examined the tank very carefully today before changing water, and there were no droppings at all. It could well be that he hasn’t eaten in a week. Sigh…

       

      Last time I had to medicate a fish so intensely was with a smoky Anglefish, about 3 or 4 years ago. The hospital tank was barely deep enough for his rotten fins length. He had a really bad case of fin rot and wounds due to fighting for 5 minutes with the black Angelfish. His fins almost reached the flesh in places where they were torn. I had to medicate him for 8 weeks, with extensive PWCs “He was 3” long”. But he came around beautifully. I still have him now in the 20 G with a small Pleco and one survivor Clown Loach. Smoky is now more than 25 cm tall!

       

      We don’t get to win the fight everytime.. eh..

      Now I have to tell my mom L.

      Her tank is empty now. Anything to do to disinfect it before she gets any new fish?

       

      Thanks for your valuable help though this!

      Noura

       

       

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 02 شباط, 2015 06:42 م
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

       

      Hi Noura.

       

      I'm so sorry to hear that this fish didn't make it, especially after all the effort you went through in trying to help him.  I read both you messages, but thought I'd reply to this one first.  I have no specific reason why he died, but I extremely doubt it was because you prepared the Erythromycin solution last night and stored it in there fridge.  The worst thing they could have happened to the medication would have been that it lost some of its effectiveness, but that wouldn't have adversely affect him like this. 

       

      Don't blame yourself if that's what you think, as the only thing that an inadequately strong medication would do would be to allow the disease to advance slightly.  That would only mean that the disease would take a bit longer to completely cure.  Of course, that could (but not necessarily) also allow for a mutation of the disease to develop, making it harder to cure the disease but that's not going to happen in a matter of hours. 

       

      While I wasn't there to see exactly how well (or how poorly) he was doing just before the PWC, and only know that he was sitting upright on the bottom of the tank -- since you said he was lying on the bottom of the tank after this last PWC (a marked difference) -- In my estimation, his constantly weakening state from not eating is what finally did him in.  I've seen enough fish that have gone on a temporary hunger strike and were no longer able to swim because of their weakened condition, only to have never been able to pull out of this condition and die despite regaining their appetite and eating well again. 

       

      Many just don't make it and while Carp (which would include Barbs) may do this on occasion and regain their abilities, the smaller the fish is the less likely it's system is able to cope with such malnutrition.  One major reason why I was hoping he'd start eating.  I also don't believe it was the disease itself that overwhelmed him as you did everything you could to combat it and I doubt he was battling it at all anymore.  Still, even if a fish is completely cured, the medications need to be continued for the full duration of the treatment to prevent a relapse, and you were continuing his treatment at this time.  I applaude your efforts and all the care you've shown!      

       

      Best regards,

       

      Ray

       

       

      In a message dated 2/2/2015 11:07:59 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

       

      He’s gone L

      Unbelievable…

      I’m sure it has to do with the last PWC about 3 hours ago. But I can’t think of the direct reason, I did everything exactly the same way as before.

      The only difference is that I prepared the Erythormycin solution last night and kept it in the fridge. It can’t be this.

      Noura L

      From: Noura T. [mailto:n-ocean@...]
      Sent: 02 شباط, 2015 12:46 م
      To: 'AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com'
      Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

      Hi Ray,

      The Barb went lying on his side right after the last PWC 2 hours ago. And he’s still like that.

      Test results are the same as last time.

      I matched the temperature for the added water and added the 3 medications, so not sure what’s wrong. He seemed okay before the change L

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 02 شباط, 2015 08:28 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

       

       

       

       


      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56567 From: dmctjc Date: 2/4/2015
      Subject: Re: Moving
      Thanks for the advice. I wish I could get the tank set up the day before, but, practically it won't work. Silly as it may sound, but, moving the fish is one of my biggest worries. I've been thru a lot the past few years and these guys have survived a lot and made me smile a lot. The changes coming to my life will let me give them more TLC.

      I haven't gotten the tubs yet, so, I will buy them with the ability to hang the filters on the sides. The current plan gets me and my fish and cats to the new house the day we move out of the old house. The rest of my belongings will arrive the next day. If I can set up the tank the night we arrive and give the "dirt" a chance to settle in it that night and put the fish in the next morning. At this point for my sanity and concern for my pets I may spend the first night in the new house on an air mattress.

      Donna
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56568 From: sevenspringss Date: 2/4/2015
      Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
      AOL Email
      John,
       
      I thought you approved the photos, only because you were the one who appeared to be texting Noura around that same time.  I could have approved them though, although when I saw Noura's text message on that topic needing approval and after I "approved it," I saw that it was already approved about 20 minutes before I thought I approved it.  At that same time, I approved the photos, but as I saw her text message had already been approved, which I presumed by you, I also thought that you approved the photos too.  If not, than I guess I was the one who approved the photos if you didn't, but I didn't get up on line soon enough to approve Noura's text message announcing she sent in the photos for approval.  Are you as confused as I am (LOL). 
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 2/3/2015 7:07:50 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Ray-I didn't realise I had approved them-I thought you did!

        John<o)))<

      On 3 February 2015 at 23:57, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      Hi Noura,
       
      Your pics have been approved.  John can (and did) approve photos.  He's another moderator here, and beat me to it this time < g >.
       
      Ray 
       
       
      In a message dated 2/3/2015 6:43:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Here’s my big boy Smoky.. He’s a monster J

      I wanted to take pics of the Clown Loach, but they were sleeping. He/she likes to hide in those caves, especially at night, like now.

      (It could take a while before the new photos are approved)

      https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/AquaticLife/photos/albums/1956468285

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 04 شباط, 2015 01:05 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

      Oh thank you John J

      I sure will!

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 04 شباط, 2015 12:41 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

      Hi Noura,

        I just looked at Smoky as a baby-you must be very proud of him he's a great looking fish. I'd be interested to see what he looks like now if you can post some pictures anytime.

        John<o)))<

      On 3 February 2015 at 09:05, 'Noura T.' n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      :-D

      His baby pics are in the photos section!

      I think the folder is Noura’s tanks , or something like that. He was tinyyy!

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 03 شباط, 2015 01:35 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

      Smoky is a big boy!

        John<o)))<

      On 2 February 2015 at 18:55, 'Noura T.' n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Thanks for your kind words, Ray. And for all your, and John’s help.

      Exactly, he was sitting upright just before the water change, and breathing at an almost normal rate. And went lying on his side immediately after it.

      I’ve been turning this in my head all day… I know I did everything I could, but I really had high hopes for him after his condition stabilized.

      Your thoughts about the extreme weakness made me think that maybe the water movement while I was adding the new water have exhausted him completely, and beyond recovery. I wasn’t pouring water directly and heavily, I have put a 500 ml cup on the tank’s bottom and poured the new water in it so that water spilled from all its edges like a round fountain. Still, I noticed there were some currents that dragged Silver around a little in the tiny tank.

      I examined the tank very carefully today before changing water, and there were no droppings at all. It could well be that he hasn’t eaten in a week. Sigh…

      Last time I had to medicate a fish so intensely was with a smoky Anglefish, about 3 or 4 years ago. The hospital tank was barely deep enough for his rotten fins length. He had a really bad case of fin rot and wounds due to fighting for 5 minutes with the black Angelfish. His fins almost reached the flesh in places where they were torn. I had to medicate him for 8 weeks, with extensive PWCs “He was 3” long”. But he came around beautifully. I still have him now in the 20 G with a small Pleco and one survivor Clown Loach. Smoky is now more than 25 cm tall!

      We don’t get to win the fight everytime.. eh..

      Now I have to tell my mom L.

      Her tank is empty now. Anything to do to disinfect it before she gets any new fish?

      Thanks for your valuable help though this!

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 02 شباط, 2015 06:42 م
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

      Hi Noura.

      I'm so sorry to hear that this fish didn't make it, especially after all the effort you went through in trying to help him.  I read both you messages, but thought I'd reply to this one first.  I have no specific reason why he died, but I extremely doubt it was because you prepared the Erythromycin solution last night and stored it in there fridge.  The worst thing they could have happened to the medication would have been that it lost some of its effectiveness, but that wouldn't have adversely affect him like this. 

      Don't blame yourself if that's what you think, as the only thing that an inadequately strong medication would do would be to allow the disease to advance slightly.  That would only mean that the disease would take a bit longer to completely cure.  Of course, that could (but not necessarily) also allow for a mutation of the disease to develop, making it harder to cure the disease but that's not going to happen in a matter of hours. 

      While I wasn't there to see exactly how well (or how poorly) he was doing just before the PWC, and only know that he was sitting upright on the bottom of the tank -- since you said he was lying on the bottom of the tank after this last PWC (a marked difference) -- In my estimation, his constantly weakening state from not eating is what finally did him in.  I've seen enough fish that have gone on a temporary hunger strike and were no longer able to swim because of their weakened condition, only to have never been able to pull out of this condition and die despite regaining their appetite and eating well again. 

      Many just don't make it and while Carp (which would include Barbs) may do this on occasion and regain their abilities, the smaller the fish is the less likely it's system is able to cope with such malnutrition.  One major reason why I was hoping he'd start eating.  I also don't believe it was the disease itself that overwhelmed him as you did everything you could to combat it and I doubt he was battling it at all anymore.  Still, even if a fish is completely cured, the medications need to be continued for the full duration of the treatment to prevent a relapse, and you were continuing his treatment at this time.  I applaude your efforts and all the care you've shown!      

      Best regards,

      Ray

      In a message dated 2/2/2015 11:07:59 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

       

      He’s gone L

      Unbelievable…

      I’m sure it has to do with the last PWC about 3 hours ago. But I can’t think of the direct reason, I did everything exactly the same way as before.

      The only difference is that I prepared the Erythormycin solution last night and kept it in the fridge. It can’t be this.

      Noura L

      From: Noura T. [mailto:n-ocean@...]
      Sent: 02 شباط, 2015 12:46 م
      To: 'AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com'
      Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

      Hi Ray,

      The Barb went lying on his side right after the last PWC 2 hours ago. And he’s still like that.

      Test results are the same as last time.

      I matched the temperature for the added water and added the 3 medications, so not sure what’s wrong. He seemed okay before the change L

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 02 شباط, 2015 08:28 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       


      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56569 From: sevenspringss Date: 2/4/2015
      Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
      AOL Email
      Hi Noura,
       
      I don't remember you ever mentioning how many tanks you have, probably because that topic never came up before.  I know you have a tank of Yellow Lab Malawi Cichlids, which didn't cross my mind presently until you mentioned having Smoky.  Then, I was starting to wonder if you have Smoky in with the Malawi fish and was about to ask you about this when I now see you also have a small Pleco and a Clown Loach (which I hadn't recalled), all three fish (only) in a 20 gallon tank.  So then you have at least two tanks.  I do recall that the Malawi Cichlid aquarium is a 29 gallon tank.  Obviously, you no longer have the Black Angelfish.  Do you have any other tanks?  
       
      Ray
          
       
      In a message dated 2/3/2015 7:23:38 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hi John,

      The Angelfish is not nocturnal, I turned the lights on to take these pics and he remained asleep for 2 more minutes! I only realized it because he didn’t move to me lol

      When I tapped on the glass gently, he woke up! I don’t know how tame fish can be (other than Goldfish), but almost all of them will take food from my finger at the surface, they would happily eat my finger as well if they could! Lol

      Yes the Clown Loach is a very funny fish! He has takes weirdest positions! They would gather behind rocks like a fish pile when there were several young ones.

      He can stand upside down in a corner, empties his caves from small shells that somehow got in, makes clicking sounds when eating flakes or lettuce, and yes.. he digs the gravel and moves it around. I noticed he’s digging a long hole inside the cave, maybe to accommodate his growing height. I never imagined he will get this big when I made those caves!

      He’s HUGE… almost as long as Smoky “excluding the tail”, but I know he could get much bigger. (He or she, I don’t know)

      I used to exchange my growing fish for smaller ones at the petshop before, but in these tough circumstances I haven’t changed anything. Haven’t replaced dead fish, and also I didn’t want to take the big ones to the shop, because I knew there’s a very slim chance for them to be properly taken care of in another home.

      So, we’re sticking together for the time being J

      There are only 3 fish in the 20 G.

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 04 شباط, 2015 02:06 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

      Hi Noura,

        It took under 10 minutes to approve your photos, they were already approved when I looked-someone is on the ball! Thanks for replying so fast-Smoky is a great looking fish, are they nocturnal? I don't know a lot about Angels, are they tame & can they get to feed from your hand?

      I remember several years before I got fish seeing a tropical community tank in an old folks home & I was very taken with one particular fish in that tank which I now know to be a Clown Loach. I loved the way it stood on it's front fins like it was paying attention to something. This particular fish would dig a hole in the gravel & build all the stones up in a pile next to the hole-does your do that?

        John<o)))<

      On 3 February 2015 at 23:41, 'Noura T.' n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Here’s my big boy Smoky.. He’s a monster J

      I wanted to take pics of the Clown Loach, but they were sleeping. He/she likes to hide in those caves, especially at night, like now.

      (It could take a while before the new photos are approved)

      https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/AquaticLife/photos/albums/1956468285

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 04 شباط, 2015 01:05 ص


      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

      Oh thank you John J

      I sure will!

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 04 شباط, 2015 12:41 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

      Hi Noura,

        I just looked at Smoky as a baby-you must be very proud of him he's a great looking fish. I'd be interested to see what he looks like now if you can post some pictures anytime.

        John<o)))<

      On 3 February 2015 at 09:05, 'Noura T.' n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      :-D

      His baby pics are in the photos section!

      I think the folder is Noura’s tanks , or something like that. He was tinyyy!

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 03 شباط, 2015 01:35 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

      Smoky is a big boy!

        John<o)))<

      On 2 February 2015 at 18:55, 'Noura T.' n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Thanks for your kind words, Ray. And for all your, and John’s help.

      Exactly, he was sitting upright just before the water change, and breathing at an almost normal rate. And went lying on his side immediately after it.

      I’ve been turning this in my head all day… I know I did everything I could, but I really had high hopes for him after his condition stabilized.

      Your thoughts about the extreme weakness made me think that maybe the water movement while I was adding the new water have exhausted him completely, and beyond recovery. I wasn’t pouring water directly and heavily, I have put a 500 ml cup on the tank’s bottom and poured the new water in it so that water spilled from all its edges like a round fountain. Still, I noticed there were some currents that dragged Silver around a little in the tiny tank.

      I examined the tank very carefully today before changing water, and there were no droppings at all. It could well be that he hasn’t eaten in a week. Sigh…

      Last time I had to medicate a fish so intensely was with a smoky Anglefish, about 3 or 4 years ago. The hospital tank was barely deep enough for his rotten fins length. He had a really bad case of fin rot and wounds due to fighting for 5 minutes with the black Angelfish. His fins almost reached the flesh in places where they were torn. I had to medicate him for 8 weeks, with extensive PWCs “He was 3” long”. But he came around beautifully. I still have him now in the 20 G with a small Pleco and one survivor Clown Loach. Smoky is now more than 25 cm tall!

      We don’t get to win the fight everytime.. eh..

      Now I have to tell my mom L.

      Her tank is empty now. Anything to do to disinfect it before she gets any new fish?

      Thanks for your valuable help though this!

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 02 شباط, 2015 06:42 م
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

      Hi Noura.

      I'm so sorry to hear that this fish didn't make it, especially after all the effort you went through in trying to help him.  I read both you messages, but thought I'd reply to this one first.  I have no specific reason why he died, but I extremely doubt it was because you prepared the Erythromycin solution last night and stored it in there fridge.  The worst thing they could have happened to the medication would have been that it lost some of its effectiveness, but that wouldn't have adversely affect him like this. 

      Don't blame yourself if that's what you think, as the only thing that an inadequately strong medication would do would be to allow the disease to advance slightly.  That would only mean that the disease would take a bit longer to completely cure.  Of course, that could (but not necessarily) also allow for a mutation of the disease to develop, making it harder to cure the disease but that's not going to happen in a matter of hours. 

      While I wasn't there to see exactly how well (or how poorly) he was doing just before the PWC, and only know that he was sitting upright on the bottom of the tank -- since you said he was lying on the bottom of the tank after this last PWC (a marked difference) -- In my estimation, his constantly weakening state from not eating is what finally did him in.  I've seen enough fish that have gone on a temporary hunger strike and were no longer able to swim because of their weakened condition, only to have never been able to pull out of this condition and die despite regaining their appetite and eating well again. 

      Many just don't make it and while Carp (which would include Barbs) may do this on occasion and regain their abilities, the smaller the fish is the less likely it's system is able to cope with such malnutrition.  One major reason why I was hoping he'd start eating.  I also don't believe it was the disease itself that overwhelmed him as you did everything you could to combat it and I doubt he was battling it at all anymore.  Still, even if a fish is completely cured, the medications need to be continued for the full duration of the treatment to prevent a relapse, and you were continuing his treatment at this time.  I applaude your efforts and all the care you've shown!      

      Best regards,

      Ray

      In a message dated 2/2/2015 11:07:59 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

       

      He’s gone L

      Unbelievable…

      I’m sure it has to do with the last PWC about 3 hours ago. But I can’t think of the direct reason, I did everything exactly the same way as before.

      The only difference is that I prepared the Erythormycin solution last night and kept it in the fridge. It can’t be this.

      Noura L

      From: Noura T. [mailto:n-ocean@...]
      Sent: 02 شباط, 2015 12:46 م
      To: 'AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com'
      Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

      Hi Ray,

      The Barb went lying on his side right after the last PWC 2 hours ago. And he’s still like that.

      Test results are the same as last time.

      I matched the temperature for the added water and added the 3 medications, so not sure what’s wrong. He seemed okay before the change L

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 02 شباط, 2015 08:28 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56570 From: sevenspringss Date: 2/4/2015
      Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
      AOL Email
      Hi Noura,
       
      One very unnerving "stunt" that Clown Loaches are famous for displaying is that they will occasionally lay down on their sides, looking for all the world like they're stone dead.  May I assume that you've seen this behavior by now, and if so, what did you think of it at that time?  If you haven't yet seen this in your Clown Loach, then be prepared for it and don't panic when you do.  They're notorious for this, to most hobbyists maintaining these fish for any good length of time. 
       
      Two years isn't to bad of a time period for keeping a Betta.  Their average life span has been said to be about 2 1/2 years for as far back as I can remember-- and I don't want to admit how long that is to protect how old I am (LOL).  There are always a few that will live much longer, just as there will be in most other species, but lately many of the Bettas here in the States don't even live as long as this.  I don't really know why except to say that the average mass-produced Bettas in the shops here rarely make it past a year.  Perhaps it's just a matter of inbreeding as those Bettas bought directly from prominent Betta breeders hold up much longer.  
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 2/3/2015 7:51:12 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hi John,

      Silver’s color was off during his illness. He was pink when healthy. The photo’s colors are even paler as it was taken by my tablet (not the best camera). In reality, there was still a hint of pink on his sides.

      On the other hand, Smoky always says “feed me”! lol

      If you noticed some irregular flow in the lines in his “side fins” (The closeup snap), that’s how short these fins were when he was injured and sick. Half of his tail has gone. I think it took about a year for him to grow everything to full length. He was such a fighter!

      Clown loaches are one of the most interesting fish I kept. I also loved Betas. But never had much success keeping them alive for longer than a year or two.

      I had a fish that turned its head sideways, left and right, examining the gravel. I can’t remember what kind of fish it was. I only remember how it took my breath away when it did that head tilting!

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 04 شباط, 2015 02:35 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

      Hi Noura,

        Those Clown Loaches are a riot! Very interesting fish to watch so I know what I'll be getting if I ever decide to set up a tropical tank. I wondered if Smoky was tame because he seems to be saying "feed me" on that close up shot where he's posing for the camera. Nice to see what Silver looked like-did he change colour or was he always silver? I guess most fish have the genetics to change colour over time-I'm only used to seeing Goldfish & Koi do this.

        John<o)))<

      On 4 February 2015 at 00:19, 'Noura T.' n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Hi John,

      The Angelfish is not nocturnal, I turned the lights on to take these pics and he remained asleep for 2 more minutes! I only realized it because he didn’t move to me lol

      When I tapped on the glass gently, he woke up! I don’t know how tame fish can be (other than Goldfish), but almost all of them will take food from my finger at the surface, they would happily eat my finger as well if they could! Lol

      Yes the Clown Loach is a very funny fish! He has takes weirdest positions! They would gather behind rocks like a fish pile when there were several young ones.

      He can stand upside down in a corner, empties his caves from small shells that somehow got in, makes clicking sounds when eating flakes or lettuce, and yes.. he digs the gravel and moves it around. I noticed he’s digging a long hole inside the cave, maybe to accommodate his growing height. I never imagined he will get this big when I made those caves!

      He’s HUGE… almost as long as Smoky “excluding the tail”, but I know he could get much bigger. (He or she, I don’t know)

      I used to exchange my growing fish for smaller ones at the petshop before, but in these tough circumstances I haven’t changed anything. Haven’t replaced dead fish, and also I didn’t want to take the big ones to the shop, because I knew there’s a very slim chance for them to be properly taken care of in another home.

      So, we’re sticking together for the time being J

      There are only 3 fish in the 20 G.

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 04 شباط, 2015 02:06 ص


      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

      Hi Noura,

        It took under 10 minutes to approve your photos, they were already approved when I looked-someone is on the ball! Thanks for replying so fast-Smoky is a great looking fish, are they nocturnal? I don't know a lot about Angels, are they tame & can they get to feed from your hand?

      I remember several years before I got fish seeing a tropical community tank in an old folks home & I was very taken with one particular fish in that tank which I now know to be a Clown Loach. I loved the way it stood on it's front fins like it was paying attention to something. This particular fish would dig a hole in the gravel & build all the stones up in a pile next to the hole-does your do that?

        John<o)))<

      On 3 February 2015 at 23:41, 'Noura T.' n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Here’s my big boy Smoky.. He’s a monster J

      I wanted to take pics of the Clown Loach, but they were sleeping. He/she likes to hide in those caves, especially at night, like now.

      (It could take a while before the new photos are approved)

      https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/AquaticLife/photos/albums/1956468285

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 04 شباط, 2015 01:05 ص


      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

      Oh thank you John J

      I sure will!

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 04 شباط, 2015 12:41 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

      Hi Noura,

        I just looked at Smoky as a baby-you must be very proud of him he's a great looking fish. I'd be interested to see what he looks like now if you can post some pictures anytime.

        John<o)))<

      On 3 February 2015 at 09:05, 'Noura T.' n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      :-D

      His baby pics are in the photos section!

      I think the folder is Noura’s tanks , or something like that. He was tinyyy!

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 03 شباط, 2015 01:35 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

      Smoky is a big boy!

        John<o)))<

      On 2 February 2015 at 18:55, 'Noura T.' n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Thanks for your kind words, Ray. And for all your, and John’s help.

      Exactly, he was sitting upright just before the water change, and breathing at an almost normal rate. And went lying on his side immediately after it.

      I’ve been turning this in my head all day… I know I did everything I could, but I really had high hopes for him after his condition stabilized.

      Your thoughts about the extreme weakness made me think that maybe the water movement while I was adding the new water have exhausted him completely, and beyond recovery. I wasn’t pouring water directly and heavily, I have put a 500 ml cup on the tank’s bottom and poured the new water in it so that water spilled from all its edges like a round fountain. Still, I noticed there were some currents that dragged Silver around a little in the tiny tank.

      I examined the tank very carefully today before changing water, and there were no droppings at all. It could well be that he hasn’t eaten in a week. Sigh…

      Last time I had to medicate a fish so intensely was with a smoky Anglefish, about 3 or 4 years ago. The hospital tank was barely deep enough for his rotten fins length. He had a really bad case of fin rot and wounds due to fighting for 5 minutes with the black Angelfish. His fins almost reached the flesh in places where they were torn. I had to medicate him for 8 weeks, with extensive PWCs “He was 3” long”. But he came around beautifully. I still have him now in the 20 G with a small Pleco and one survivor Clown Loach. Smoky is now more than 25 cm tall!

      We don’t get to win the fight everytime.. eh..

      Now I have to tell my mom L.

      Her tank is empty now. Anything to do to disinfect it before she gets any new fish?

      Thanks for your valuable help though this!

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 02 شباط, 2015 06:42 م
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

      Hi Noura.

      I'm so sorry to hear that this fish didn't make it, especially after all the effort you went through in trying to help him.  I read both you messages, but thought I'd reply to this one first.  I have no specific reason why he died, but I extremely doubt it was because you prepared the Erythromycin solution last night and stored it in there fridge.  The worst thing they could have happened to the medication would have been that it lost some of its effectiveness, but that wouldn't have adversely affect him like this. 

      Don't blame yourself if that's what you think, as the only thing that an inadequately strong medication would do would be to allow the disease to advance slightly.  That would only mean that the disease would take a bit longer to completely cure.  Of course, that could (but not necessarily) also allow for a mutation of the disease to develop, making it harder to cure the disease but that's not going to happen in a matter of hours. 

      While I wasn't there to see exactly how well (or how poorly) he was doing just before the PWC, and only know that he was sitting upright on the bottom of the tank -- since you said he was lying on the bottom of the tank after this last PWC (a marked difference) -- In my estimation, his constantly weakening state from not eating is what finally did him in.  I've seen enough fish that have gone on a temporary hunger strike and were no longer able to swim because of their weakened condition, only to have never been able to pull out of this condition and die despite regaining their appetite and eating well again. 

      Many just don't make it and while Carp (which would include Barbs) may do this on occasion and regain their abilities, the smaller the fish is the less likely it's system is able to cope with such malnutrition.  One major reason why I was hoping he'd start eating.  I also don't believe it was the disease itself that overwhelmed him as you did everything you could to combat it and I doubt he was battling it at all anymore.  Still, even if a fish is completely cured, the medications need to be continued for the full duration of the treatment to prevent a relapse, and you were continuing his treatment at this time.  I applaude your efforts and all the care you've shown!      

      Best regards,

      Ray

      In a message dated 2/2/2015 11:07:59 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

       

      He’s gone L

      Unbelievable…

      I’m sure it has to do with the last PWC about 3 hours ago. But I can’t think of the direct reason, I did everything exactly the same way as before.

      The only difference is that I prepared the Erythormycin solution last night and kept it in the fridge. It can’t be this.

      Noura L

      From: Noura T. [mailto:n-ocean@...]
      Sent: 02 شباط, 2015 12:46 م
      To: 'AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com'
      Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

      Hi Ray,

      The Barb went lying on his side right after the last PWC 2 hours ago. And he’s still like that.

      Test results are the same as last time.

      I matched the temperature for the added water and added the 3 medications, so not sure what’s wrong. He seemed okay before the change L

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 02 شباط, 2015 08:28 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56571 From: sevenspringss Date: 2/4/2015
      Subject: Re: Moving
      AOL Email
      Donna,
       
      I too have to wonder what you mean by "dirt."  I trust you mean the sand or gravel, but when I think of dirt I can only picture top soil.  I'm not sure what you have in mind for heavy plastic tubs, and you may have already purchased them, but I just wanted to draw your attention to Rubbermaid tubs -- which may even be what you've obtained (or will obtain).  These containers are very popular among fish hobbyist, not only because they're extremely durable but because they're also quite versatile.  Some hobbyists even place them outside during the Summer and allow some of their fish to breed in them in a more natural outdoor environment with natural foods (mosquito larvae, bugs, etc.).  Miniature water lilies can also be grown in them outdoors.
       
      Rather than zip-lock bags for your Bettas, why don't you just ask your local fish store for a few fish bags.  I'm sure they'll probably just give you some, but they can't cost very much if they charge you for them.  I just can't trust zip-lock bags from coming undone, even though the chances of that are remote.  Fish bags will also offer a much larger airspace after you rubber-band them closed, when filling them 1/3 with water.
       
      Ray
       
       
       
      In a message dated 2/3/2015 12:59:20 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      I am moving 5 hrs away in the next couple of months and am trying to do some planning. 


      First, let me assure you that the fish and their homes will be moved in heated cars, not in the moving truck!


      I am taking a 55 gal community tank planted with low light plants. The morning the movers come

      I plan to move the fish into heavy plastic tubs with lids. I plan to stop every couple of hours and

      run an airstone in each tub for a few min. I am not sure how to get the dirt and fish

      comfortable in their new home? Should I plan on the first night just getting the driftwood,

      fish and plants into the tank? Should I add plan to soak the dirt in tubs and add it to the 

      tank over several days? To make it easier/less stressful on the fish should I get the driftwood

      and plants out of the tank a day or 2 before the move? 


      I am also moving 2 male betta fish. For the drive would it be safe to put them in zip lock bags?


      Thanks for any and all advice!


      Donna


      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56572 From: Donna Stannard Camp Date: 2/4/2015
      Subject: Re: Moving
      I have a planted tank. I used potting soil under a layer of gravel for the substrate. I have plants that thrive under fairly low light. 

      I'm heading to WalMart and Lowes and Home Depot today to see what kind of tubs they have. Do I need to treat them in any way before putting the fish in ? (Other than using my usual water conditioner)

      I have zip lock bags which are big enough to hold bottles of wine safely in a suitcase checked while flying across country; those are my thought for the bettas.

      Donna
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56573 From: sevenspringss Date: 2/4/2015
      Subject: Re: Moving
      AOL Email
      So then, you want to know how to transport the potting soil mud after first removing as much gravel off the top of it as possible.  I believe using waterproof plastic bags would be about the best way -- even if you need to use doubled (for strength) plastic garbage bags.  Again though, your local fish store could probably supply you with heavy clear plastic box-bag size fish bags of a large enough size to make it practical to use them. 
       
      The Rubbermaid tubs need no prior preparation to put fish into them, other than perhaps a quick hosing/rinse to remove any accumulated dust they may have from being in storage. 
       
      While I have seen zip lock bags occasionally used to bring fish in to the various fish clubs' auctions, this practice is discouraged by some clubs an even disallowed (refused) by other clubs.  If you can't find, or prefer not to use regular fish bags, then I guess these will suffice for transporting you Bettas.  After all, they won't be constantly handled by viewers looking to bid on them (as in a fish auction).  As I don't know if they're made to hold much weigh at the seal, you might want to consider double-bagging them by inverting one bag into the other.  A bottle of wine (unless uncorked) does not exert any pressure/weight on the zip lock seal, so it's much safer to transport those without leakage.      
       
      Ray
           
       
      In a message dated 2/4/2015 8:58:14 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      I have a planted tank. I used potting soil under a layer of gravel for the substrate. I have plants that thrive under fairly low light. 

      I'm heading to WalMart and Lowes and Home Depot today to see what kind of tubs they have. Do I need to treat them in any way before putting the fish in ? (Other than using my usual water conditioner)

      I have zip lock bags which are big enough to hold bottles of wine safely in a suitcase checked while flying across country; those are my thought for the bettas.

      Donna

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56574 From: sevenspringss Date: 2/4/2015
      Subject: Re: 29 gallon
      AOL Email
      Andy,
       
      I'm not sure if your water alternately turns yellow and light green at various time, but often, a yellow tinge to the water is a result of feeding flake food over a period of time.  Usually, the PWC's will clear this, but if the feedings are heavy and the PWC's are light, some color can build up.
       
      On the other hand, a light green color is most often caused by suspended algae.  Usually that can be cleared up by reducing the lighting duration/intensity, in addition to using live plants.  Increased PWC's may not necessarily clear this and often adds to the problem by supplying the algae with additional nutrients.  If your water parameters test out alright, including the nitrate AND any possible phosphate, then there's no need for concern except if it gets worse, which doesn't appear to be happening in your case.
       
      As for your water testing "great," I can't really be sure of what you mean by this unless you post some test result numbers, but if your ammonia and nitrite are both at zero, and your nitrate is not exceeding 40 ppm (preferable even 20 ppm or less), then I'd have to agree that it looks great, as for as organic nitrogenous waste goes.
       
      Ray
       
      In a message dated 2/3/2015 4:15:24 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hi all I am fairly new to fresh water and have a 29 gallon set up with an aqua clear 30 & 50 on it . It has been set up for about 4 months the water test great . My problem is the water is yellow and light green. I have a canister filter on the way. I have 5 tiger barbs 2 bolivian rams 2 cory cats a placo. I changed the carbon filter every month and squeeze out the bottom pads in the water I take out of the tank every time I do a water change about 2 weeks. Is the water color something to be concerned about. I am setting up a 20 long next week for the tiger barb tank.


      Thanks


      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56575 From: Donna Stannard Camp Date: 2/4/2015
      Subject: Re: Moving
      Again thanks for the advice. I'm starting my planning more than a month in advance to I can gather supplies.

      I doubt I'll be taking the mud with me as I was almost at the point of redoing the bottom/plants before the decision to move was made. I may try to get a friend living near my new home to wet down the soil and gravel a few days before I get there. I do want to take the driftwood and at least some of the plants that are in the tank with me - and a decoration my clowns seem to love!

      Donna
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56576 From: andy_peltier Date: 2/4/2015
      Subject: Re: 29 gallon
      Thanks John I will go down today and get some polish cloths and take out the carbon and try that.

      Andy
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56577 From: Noura T. Date: 2/4/2015
      Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

      Hi Ray,

      I currently have 3 running tanks J

      The two you mentioned, and a smaller Guppies tank that has 4 Guppies and is crowded with successfully growing plants (Anubias Nana, and some kind of Sword something.. I think.. lol). The “new one” with the broken base that we discussed a few months ago is still on the balcony, empty. We were no longer enthusiastic to set it up, considering the general situation around here.

      I used to have a Beta bowl (1.5 G) some years ago as well. But we felt bad for him in that small space, and moved him to the 20 G where he occupied and protected the 2 inches high corner right above the filter for a year or so J.

       

      Noura

       

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 04 شباط, 2015 03:05 م
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

       

      Hi Noura,

       

      I don't remember you ever mentioning how many tanks you have, probably because that topic never came up before.  I know you have a tank of Yellow Lab Malawi Cichlids, which didn't cross my mind presently until you mentioned having Smoky.  Then, I was starting to wonder if you have Smoky in with the Malawi fish and was about to ask you about this when I now see you also have a small Pleco and a Clown Loach (which I hadn't recalled), all three fish (only) in a 20 gallon tank.  So then you have at least two tanks.  I do recall that the Malawi Cichlid aquarium is a 29 gallon tank.  Obviously, you no longer have the Black Angelfish.  Do you have any other tanks?  

       

      Ray

          

       

      In a message dated 2/3/2015 7:23:38 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

       

      Hi John,

      The Angelfish is not nocturnal, I turned the lights on to take these pics and he remained asleep for 2 more minutes! I only realized it because he didn’t move to me lol

      When I tapped on the glass gently, he woke up! I don’t know how tame fish can be (other than Goldfish), but almost all of them will take food from my finger at the surface, they would happily eat my finger as well if they could! Lol

      Yes the Clown Loach is a very funny fish! He has takes weirdest positions! They would gather behind rocks like a fish pile when there were several young ones.

      He can stand upside down in a corner, empties his caves from small shells that somehow got in, makes clicking sounds when eating flakes or lettuce, and yes.. he digs the gravel and moves it around. I noticed he’s digging a long hole inside the cave, maybe to accommodate his growing height. I never imagined he will get this big when I made those caves!

      He’s HUGE… almost as long as Smoky “excluding the tail”, but I know he could get much bigger. (He or she, I don’t know)

      I used to exchange my growing fish for smaller ones at the petshop before, but in these tough circumstances I haven’t changed anything. Haven’t replaced dead fish, and also I didn’t want to take the big ones to the shop, because I knew there’s a very slim chance for them to be properly taken care of in another home.

      So, we’re sticking together for the time being J

      There are only 3 fish in the 20 G.

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 04 شباط, 2015 02:06 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

      Hi Noura,

        It took under 10 minutes to approve your photos, they were already approved when I looked-someone is on the ball! Thanks for replying so fast-Smoky is a great looking fish, are they nocturnal? I don't know a lot about Angels, are they tame & can they get to feed from your hand?

      I remember several years before I got fish seeing a tropical community tank in an old folks home & I was very taken with one particular fish in that tank which I now know to be a Clown Loach. I loved the way it stood on it's front fins like it was paying attention to something. This particular fish would dig a hole in the gravel & build all the stones up in a pile next to the hole-does your do that?

        John<o)))<

      On 3 February 2015 at 23:41, 'Noura T.' n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Here’s my big boy Smoky.. He’s a monster J

      I wanted to take pics of the Clown Loach, but they were sleeping. He/she likes to hide in those caves, especially at night, like now.

      (It could take a while before the new photos are approved)

      https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/AquaticLife/photos/albums/1956468285

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 04 شباط, 2015 01:05 ص


      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

      Oh thank you John J

      I sure will!

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 04 شباط, 2015 12:41 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

      Hi Noura,

        I just looked at Smoky as a baby-you must be very proud of him he's a great looking fish. I'd be interested to see what he looks like now if you can post some pictures anytime.

        John<o)))<

      On 3 February 2015 at 09:05, 'Noura T.' n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      :-D

      His baby pics are in the photos section!

      I think the folder is Noura’s tanks , or something like that. He was tinyyy!

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 03 شباط, 2015 01:35 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

      Smoky is a big boy!

        John<o)))<

      On 2 February 2015 at 18:55, 'Noura T.' n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Thanks for your kind words, Ray. And for all your, and John’s help.

      Exactly, he was sitting upright just before the water change, and breathing at an almost normal rate. And went lying on his side immediately after it.

      I’ve been turning this in my head all day… I know I did everything I could, but I really had high hopes for him after his condition stabilized.

      Your thoughts about the extreme weakness made me think that maybe the water movement while I was adding the new water have exhausted him completely, and beyond recovery. I wasn’t pouring water directly and heavily, I have put a 500 ml cup on the tank’s bottom and poured the new water in it so that water spilled from all its edges like a round fountain. Still, I noticed there were some currents that dragged Silver around a little in the tiny tank.

      I examined the tank very carefully today before changing water, and there were no droppings at all. It could well be that he hasn’t eaten in a week. Sigh…

      Last time I had to medicate a fish so intensely was with a smoky Anglefish, about 3 or 4 years ago. The hospital tank was barely deep enough for his rotten fins length. He had a really bad case of fin rot and wounds due to fighting for 5 minutes with the black Angelfish. His fins almost reached the flesh in places where they were torn. I had to medicate him for 8 weeks, with extensive PWCs “He was 3” long”. But he came around beautifully. I still have him now in the 20 G with a small Pleco and one survivor Clown Loach. Smoky is now more than 25 cm tall!

      We don’t get to win the fight everytime.. eh..

      Now I have to tell my mom L.

      Her tank is empty now. Anything to do to disinfect it before she gets any new fish?

      Thanks for your valuable help though this!

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 02 شباط, 2015 06:42 م
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

      Hi Noura.

      I'm so sorry to hear that this fish didn't make it, especially after all the effort you went through in trying to help him.  I read both you messages, but thought I'd reply to this one first.  I have no specific reason why he died, but I extremely doubt it was because you prepared the Erythromycin solution last night and stored it in there fridge.  The worst thing they could have happened to the medication would have been that it lost some of its effectiveness, but that wouldn't have adversely affect him like this. 

      Don't blame yourself if that's what you think, as the only thing that an inadequately strong medication would do would be to allow the disease to advance slightly.  That would only mean that the disease would take a bit longer to completely cure.  Of course, that could (but not necessarily) also allow for a mutation of the disease to develop, making it harder to cure the disease but that's not going to happen in a matter of hours. 

      While I wasn't there to see exactly how well (or how poorly) he was doing just before the PWC, and only know that he was sitting upright on the bottom of the tank -- since you said he was lying on the bottom of the tank after this last PWC (a marked difference) -- In my estimation, his constantly weakening state from not eating is what finally did him in.  I've seen enough fish that have gone on a temporary hunger strike and were no longer able to swim because of their weakened condition, only to have never been able to pull out of this condition and die despite regaining their appetite and eating well again. 

      Many just don't make it and while Carp (which would include Barbs) may do this on occasion and regain their abilities, the smaller the fish is the less likely it's system is able to cope with such malnutrition.  One major reason why I was hoping he'd start eating.  I also don't believe it was the disease itself that overwhelmed him as you did everything you could to combat it and I doubt he was battling it at all anymore.  Still, even if a fish is completely cured, the medications need to be continued for the full duration of the treatment to prevent a relapse, and you were continuing his treatment at this time.  I applaude your efforts and all the care you've shown!      

      Best regards,

      Ray

      In a message dated 2/2/2015 11:07:59 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

       

      He’s gone L

      Unbelievable…

      I’m sure it has to do with the last PWC about 3 hours ago. But I can’t think of the direct reason, I did everything exactly the same way as before.

      The only difference is that I prepared the Erythormycin solution last night and kept it in the fridge. It can’t be this.

      Noura L

      From: Noura T. [mailto:n-ocean@...]
      Sent: 02 شباط, 2015 12:46 م
      To: 'AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com'
      Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

      Hi Ray,

      The Barb went lying on his side right after the last PWC 2 hours ago. And he’s still like that.

      Test results are the same as last time.

      I matched the temperature for the added water and added the 3 medications, so not sure what’s wrong. He seemed okay before the change L

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 02 شباط, 2015 08:28 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56578 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 2/4/2015
      Subject: Re: 29 gallon
      Hi Andy,

        It will be interesting to see if you have any better results by doing that so keep us posted.

        John<o)))<

      On 4 February 2015 at 12:04, andy_peltier@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      Thanks John I will go down today and get some polish cloths and take out the carbon and try that.

      Andy


      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56579 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 2/4/2015
      Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
      Hi Ray,

       Just a point of interest with you mentioning about Bettas life spans, what is the average life span of Rosy & Cherry Barbs? The reason being I know of two fish which were in a tropical community tank given to a friend in early 2011. From memory there were three Rosy Barbs, a couple of Cherry Barbs & several others that I don't know. Gradually over the years they died off & the remaining two fish from this tank have now found a great home with a fishkeeper in Derby. The Rosy Barb is over 4 inches long & only has one eye-he was born like that, it wasn't an injury. He positions himself next to the glass with his one eye looking into the tank so he can literally keep a eye on things! In addition he's become the dominant fish of several smaller Rosy Barbs in his new home. The Cherry Barb is also doing well & like his friend has taken change of the other Rosy Barb in the tank. The original tank had been set up for about two years before my friend got it so that means these two fish are getting on for 7 years old.

         John<o)))<

      On 4 February 2015 at 19:58, 'Noura T.' n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      Hi Ray,

      I currently have 3 running tanks J

      The two you mentioned, and a smaller Guppies tank that has 4 Guppies and is crowded with successfully growing plants (Anubias Nana, and some kind of Sword something.. I think.. lol). The “new one” with the broken base that we discussed a few months ago is still on the balcony, empty. We were no longer enthusiastic to set it up, considering the general situation around here.

      I used to have a Beta bowl (1.5 G) some years ago as well. But we felt bad for him in that small space, and moved him to the 20 G where he occupied and protected the 2 inches high corner right above the filter for a year or so J.

       

      Noura

       

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 04 شباط, 2015 03:05 م


      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

       

      Hi Noura,

       

      I don't remember you ever mentioning how many tanks you have, probably because that topic never came up before.  I know you have a tank of Yellow Lab Malawi Cichlids, which didn't cross my mind presently until you mentioned having Smoky.  Then, I was starting to wonder if you have Smoky in with the Malawi fish and was about to ask you about this when I now see you also have a small Pleco and a Clown Loach (which I hadn't recalled), all three fish (only) in a 20 gallon tank.  So then you have at least two tanks.  I do recall that the Malawi Cichlid aquarium is a 29 gallon tank.  Obviously, you no longer have the Black Angelfish.  Do you have any other tanks?  

       

      Ray

          

       

      In a message dated 2/3/2015 7:23:38 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

       

      Hi John,

      The Angelfish is not nocturnal, I turned the lights on to take these pics and he remained asleep for 2 more minutes! I only realized it because he didn’t move to me lol

      When I tapped on the glass gently, he woke up! I don’t know how tame fish can be (other than Goldfish), but almost all of them will take food from my finger at the surface, they would happily eat my finger as well if they could! Lol

      Yes the Clown Loach is a very funny fish! He has takes weirdest positions! They would gather behind rocks like a fish pile when there were several young ones.

      He can stand upside down in a corner, empties his caves from small shells that somehow got in, makes clicking sounds when eating flakes or lettuce, and yes.. he digs the gravel and moves it around. I noticed he’s digging a long hole inside the cave, maybe to accommodate his growing height. I never imagined he will get this big when I made those caves!

      He’s HUGE… almost as long as Smoky “excluding the tail”, but I know he could get much bigger. (He or she, I don’t know)

      I used to exchange my growing fish for smaller ones at the petshop before, but in these tough circumstances I haven’t changed anything. Haven’t replaced dead fish, and also I didn’t want to take the big ones to the shop, because I knew there’s a very slim chance for them to be properly taken care of in another home.

      So, we’re sticking together for the time being J

      There are only 3 fish in the 20 G.

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 04 شباط, 2015 02:06 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

      Hi Noura,

        It took under 10 minutes to approve your photos, they were already approved when I looked-someone is on the ball! Thanks for replying so fast-Smoky is a great looking fish, are they nocturnal? I don't know a lot about Angels, are they tame & can they get to feed from your hand?

      I remember several years before I got fish seeing a tropical community tank in an old folks home & I was very taken with one particular fish in that tank which I now know to be a Clown Loach. I loved the way it stood on it's front fins like it was paying attention to something. This particular fish would dig a hole in the gravel & build all the stones up in a pile next to the hole-does your do that?

        John<o)))<

      On 3 February 2015 at 23:41, 'Noura T.' n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Here’s my big boy Smoky.. He’s a monster J

      I wanted to take pics of the Clown Loach, but they were sleeping. He/she likes to hide in those caves, especially at night, like now.

      (It could take a while before the new photos are approved)

      https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/AquaticLife/photos/albums/1956468285

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 04 شباط, 2015 01:05 ص


      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

      Oh thank you John J

      I sure will!

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 04 شباط, 2015 12:41 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

      Hi Noura,

        I just looked at Smoky as a baby-you must be very proud of him he's a great looking fish. I'd be interested to see what he looks like now if you can post some pictures anytime.

        John<o)))<

      On 3 February 2015 at 09:05, 'Noura T.' n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      :-D

      His baby pics are in the photos section!

      I think the folder is Noura’s tanks , or something like that. He was tinyyy!

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 03 شباط, 2015 01:35 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

      Smoky is a big boy!

        John<o)))<

      On 2 February 2015 at 18:55, 'Noura T.' n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Thanks for your kind words, Ray. And for all your, and John’s help.

      Exactly, he was sitting upright just before the water change, and breathing at an almost normal rate. And went lying on his side immediately after it.

      I’ve been turning this in my head all day… I know I did everything I could, but I really had high hopes for him after his condition stabilized.

      Your thoughts about the extreme weakness made me think that maybe the water movement while I was adding the new water have exhausted him completely, and beyond recovery. I wasn’t pouring water directly and heavily, I have put a 500 ml cup on the tank’s bottom and poured the new water in it so that water spilled from all its edges like a round fountain. Still, I noticed there were some currents that dragged Silver around a little in the tiny tank.

      I examined the tank very carefully today before changing water, and there were no droppings at all. It could well be that he hasn’t eaten in a week. Sigh…

      Last time I had to medicate a fish so intensely was with a smoky Anglefish, about 3 or 4 years ago. The hospital tank was barely deep enough for his rotten fins length. He had a really bad case of fin rot and wounds due to fighting for 5 minutes with the black Angelfish. His fins almost reached the flesh in places where they were torn. I had to medicate him for 8 weeks, with extensive PWCs “He was 3” long”. But he came around beautifully. I still have him now in the 20 G with a small Pleco and one survivor Clown Loach. Smoky is now more than 25 cm tall!

      We don’t get to win the fight everytime.. eh..

      Now I have to tell my mom L.

      Her tank is empty now. Anything to do to disinfect it before she gets any new fish?

      Thanks for your valuable help though this!

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 02 شباط, 2015 06:42 م
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

      Hi Noura.

      I'm so sorry to hear that this fish didn't make it, especially after all the effort you went through in trying to help him.  I read both you messages, but thought I'd reply to this one first.  I have no specific reason why he died, but I extremely doubt it was because you prepared the Erythromycin solution last night and stored it in there fridge.  The worst thing they could have happened to the medication would have been that it lost some of its effectiveness, but that wouldn't have adversely affect him like this. 

      Don't blame yourself if that's what you think, as the only thing that an inadequately strong medication would do would be to allow the disease to advance slightly.  That would only mean that the disease would take a bit longer to completely cure.  Of course, that could (but not necessarily) also allow for a mutation of the disease to develop, making it harder to cure the disease but that's not going to happen in a matter of hours. 

      While I wasn't there to see exactly how well (or how poorly) he was doing just before the PWC, and only know that he was sitting upright on the bottom of the tank -- since you said he was lying on the bottom of the tank after this last PWC (a marked difference) -- In my estimation, his constantly weakening state from not eating is what finally did him in.  I've seen enough fish that have gone on a temporary hunger strike and were no longer able to swim because of their weakened condition, only to have never been able to pull out of this condition and die despite regaining their appetite and eating well again. 

      Many just don't make it and while Carp (which would include Barbs) may do this on occasion and regain their abilities, the smaller the fish is the less likely it's system is able to cope with such malnutrition.  One major reason why I was hoping he'd start eating.  I also don't believe it was the disease itself that overwhelmed him as you did everything you could to combat it and I doubt he was battling it at all anymore.  Still, even if a fish is completely cured, the medications need to be continued for the full duration of the treatment to prevent a relapse, and you were continuing his treatment at this time.  I applaude your efforts and all the care you've shown!      

      Best regards,

      Ray

      In a message dated 2/2/2015 11:07:59 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

       

      He’s gone L

      Unbelievable…

      I’m sure it has to do with the last PWC about 3 hours ago. But I can’t think of the direct reason, I did everything exactly the same way as before.

      The only difference is that I prepared the Erythormycin solution last night and kept it in the fridge. It can’t be this.

      Noura L

      From: Noura T. [mailto:n-ocean@...]
      Sent: 02 شباط, 2015 12:46 م
      To: 'AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com'
      Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

      Hi Ray,

      The Barb went lying on his side right after the last PWC 2 hours ago. And he’s still like that.

      Test results are the same as last time.

      I matched the temperature for the added water and added the 3 medications, so not sure what’s wrong. He seemed okay before the change L

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 02 شباط, 2015 08:28 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       


      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56580 From: sevenspringss Date: 2/4/2015
      Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
      AOL Email
       As with any fish, their longevity heavily depends on the conditions they're kept in, plus the foods they're given, etc.  The average lifespan of Rosy Barbs is said to be around 5 years, with 7 years not being unusual.  I've seen occasional reports of them living up to 10 years but few and far between.  Cherry Barbs have a lifespan of between 4 and 5 years, and again, they can live up to 7 years fairly often.  I've never read anything on them indicating that they can live much longer than this, although maybe that's only because no one wrote about it if they had lived any longer.  These two fish you mention would seem to not have much longer to live, although with the care they've been given to allow them to live this long, they could still live up to another couple of years.  I find the behavior of that one-eyed Barb quite interesting if time is taken out to think about a fish purposely orienting itself in a tank in a position to not be vulnerable from the side it has little defense of.  We know that this can't be thinking in the sense that humans can solve a problem, but its awareness to the limits (tank walls) of its environment and the consequences of it repeatedly finding itself safer in an area where there is no longer any extent of this environment having space enough to allow for any other fish is remarkable -- even though it's likely that this was "learned" through long-time trial and error.  For a fish to come to this behavior through trial and error is remarkable in itself.  After all, something in its experience had to prompt the fish to do this.  Shows how fish can adapt to most any situation in attempts to survive -- and Barbs aren't the most highly evolved fishes known for advanced behavior.  Then too, it would appear that they haven't been given enough credit where influenced (via stimuli)  behavior is concerned.
       
      .Ray
            
       
      In a message dated 2/4/2015 9:26:50 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hi Ray,

       Just a point of interest with you mentioning about Bettas life spans, what is the average life span of Rosy & Cherry Barbs? The reason being I know of two fish which were in a tropical community tank given to a friend in early 2011. From memory there were three Rosy Barbs, a couple of Cherry Barbs & several others that I don't know. Gradually over the years they died off & the remaining two fish from this tank have now found a great home with a fishkeeper in Derby. The Rosy Barb is over 4 inches long & only has one eye-he was born like that, it wasn't an injury. He positions himself next to the glass with his one eye looking into the tank so he can literally keep a eye on things! In addition he's become the dominant fish of several smaller Rosy Barbs in his new home. The Cherry Barb is also doing well & like his friend has taken change of the other Rosy Barb in the tank. The original tank had been set up for about two years before my friend got it so that means these two fish are getting on for 7 years old.

         John<o)))<

      On 4 February 2015 at 19:58, 'Noura T.' n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      Hi Ray,

      I currently have 3 running tanks J

      The two you mentioned, and a smaller Guppies tank that has 4 Guppies and is crowded with successfully growing plants (Anubias Nana, and some kind of Sword something.. I think.. lol). The “new one” with the broken base that we discussed a few months ago is still on the balcony, empty. We were no longer enthusiastic to set it up, considering the general situation around here.

      I used to have a Beta bowl (1.5 G) some years ago as well. But we felt bad for him in that small space, and moved him to the 20 G where he occupied and protected the 2 inches high corner right above the filter for a year or so J.

       

      Noura

       

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 04 شباط, 2015 03:05 م


      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

       

      Hi Noura,

       

      I don't remember you ever mentioning how many tanks you have, probably because that topic never came up before.  I know you have a tank of Yellow Lab Malawi Cichlids, which didn't cross my mind presently until you mentioned having Smoky.  Then, I was starting to wonder if you have Smoky in with the Malawi fish and was about to ask you about this when I now see you also have a small Pleco and a Clown Loach (which I hadn't recalled), all three fish (only) in a 20 gallon tank.  So then you have at least two tanks.  I do recall that the Malawi Cichlid aquarium is a 29 gallon tank.  Obviously, you no longer have the Black Angelfish.  Do you have any other tanks?  

       

      Ray

          

       

      In a message dated 2/3/2015 7:23:38 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

       

      Hi John,

      The Angelfish is not nocturnal, I turned the lights on to take these pics and he remained asleep for 2 more minutes! I only realized it because he didn’t move to me lol

      When I tapped on the glass gently, he woke up! I don’t know how tame fish can be (other than Goldfish), but almost all of them will take food from my finger at the surface, they would happily eat my finger as well if they could! Lol

      Yes the Clown Loach is a very funny fish! He has takes weirdest positions! They would gather behind rocks like a fish pile when there were several young ones.

      He can stand upside down in a corner, empties his caves from small shells that somehow got in, makes clicking sounds when eating flakes or lettuce, and yes.. he digs the gravel and moves it around. I noticed he’s digging a long hole inside the cave, maybe to accommodate his growing height. I never imagined he will get this big when I made those caves!

      He’s HUGE… almost as long as Smoky “excluding the tail”, but I know he could get much bigger. (He or she, I don’t know)

      I used to exchange my growing fish for smaller ones at the petshop before, but in these tough circumstances I haven’t changed anything. Haven’t replaced dead fish, and also I didn’t want to take the big ones to the shop, because I knew there’s a very slim chance for them to be properly taken care of in another home.

      So, we’re sticking together for the time being J

      There are only 3 fish in the 20 G.

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 04 شباط, 2015 02:06 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

      Hi Noura,

        It took under 10 minutes to approve your photos, they were already approved when I looked-someone is on the ball! Thanks for replying so fast-Smoky is a great looking fish, are they nocturnal? I don't know a lot about Angels, are they tame & can they get to feed from your hand?

      I remember several years before I got fish seeing a tropical community tank in an old folks home & I was very taken with one particular fish in that tank which I now know to be a Clown Loach. I loved the way it stood on it's front fins like it was paying attention to something. This particular fish would dig a hole in the gravel & build all the stones up in a pile next to the hole-does your do that?

        John<o)))<

      On 3 February 2015 at 23:41, 'Noura T.' n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Here’s my big boy Smoky.. He’s a monster J

      I wanted to take pics of the Clown Loach, but they were sleeping. He/she likes to hide in those caves, especially at night, like now.

      (It could take a while before the new photos are approved)

      https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/AquaticLife/photos/albums/1956468285

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 04 شباط, 2015 01:05 ص


      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

      Oh thank you John J

      I sure will!

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 04 شباط, 2015 12:41 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

      Hi Noura,

        I just looked at Smoky as a baby-you must be very proud of him he's a great looking fish. I'd be interested to see what he looks like now if you can post some pictures anytime.

        John<o)))<

      On 3 February 2015 at 09:05, 'Noura T.' n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      :-D

      His baby pics are in the photos section!

      I think the folder is Noura’s tanks , or something like that. He was tinyyy!

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 03 شباط, 2015 01:35 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

      Smoky is a big boy!

        John<o)))<

      On 2 February 2015 at 18:55, 'Noura T.' n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Thanks for your kind words, Ray. And for all your, and John’s help.

      Exactly, he was sitting upright just before the water change, and breathing at an almost normal rate. And went lying on his side immediately after it.

      I’ve been turning this in my head all day… I know I did everything I could, but I really had high hopes for him after his condition stabilized.

      Your thoughts about the extreme weakness made me think that maybe the water movement while I was adding the new water have exhausted him completely, and beyond recovery. I wasn’t pouring water directly and heavily, I have put a 500 ml cup on the tank’s bottom and poured the new water in it so that water spilled from all its edges like a round fountain. Still, I noticed there were some currents that dragged Silver around a little in the tiny tank.

      I examined the tank very carefully today before changing water, and there were no droppings at all. It could well be that he hasn’t eaten in a week. Sigh…

      Last time I had to medicate a fish so intensely was with a smoky Anglefish, about 3 or 4 years ago. The hospital tank was barely deep enough for his rotten fins length. He had a really bad case of fin rot and wounds due to fighting for 5 minutes with the black Angelfish. His fins almost reached the flesh in places where they were torn. I had to medicate him for 8 weeks, with extensive PWCs “He was 3” long”. But he came around beautifully. I still have him now in the 20 G with a small Pleco and one survivor Clown Loach. Smoky is now more than 25 cm tall!

      We don’t get to win the fight everytime.. eh..

      Now I have to tell my mom L.

      Her tank is empty now. Anything to do to disinfect it before she gets any new fish?

      Thanks for your valuable help though this!

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 02 شباط, 2015 06:42 م
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

      Hi Noura.

      I'm so sorry to hear that this fish didn't make it, especially after all the effort you went through in trying to help him.  I read both you messages, but thought I'd reply to this one first.  I have no specific reason why he died, but I extremely doubt it was because you prepared the Erythromycin solution last night and stored it in there fridge.  The worst thing they could have happened to the medication would have been that it lost some of its effectiveness, but that wouldn't have adversely affect him like this. 

      Don't blame yourself if that's what you think, as the only thing that an inadequately strong medication would do would be to allow the disease to advance slightly.  That would only mean that the disease would take a bit longer to completely cure.  Of course, that could (but not necessarily) also allow for a mutation of the disease to develop, making it harder to cure the disease but that's not going to happen in a matter of hours. 

      While I wasn't there to see exactly how well (or how poorly) he was doing just before the PWC, and only know that he was sitting upright on the bottom of the tank -- since you said he was lying on the bottom of the tank after this last PWC (a marked difference) -- In my estimation, his constantly weakening state from not eating is what finally did him in.  I've seen enough fish that have gone on a temporary hunger strike and were no longer able to swim because of their weakened condition, only to have never been able to pull out of this condition and die despite regaining their appetite and eating well again. 

      Many just don't make it and while Carp (which would include Barbs) may do this on occasion and regain their abilities, the smaller the fish is the less likely it's system is able to cope with such malnutrition.  One major reason why I was hoping he'd start eating.  I also don't believe it was the disease itself that overwhelmed him as you did everything you could to combat it and I doubt he was battling it at all anymore.  Still, even if a fish is completely cured, the medications need to be continued for the full duration of the treatment to prevent a relapse, and you were continuing his treatment at this time.  I applaude your efforts and all the care you've shown!      

      Best regards,

      Ray

      In a message dated 2/2/2015 11:07:59 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

       

      He’s gone L

      Unbelievable…

      I’m sure it has to do with the last PWC about 3 hours ago. But I can’t think of the direct reason, I did everything exactly the same way as before.

      The only difference is that I prepared the Erythormycin solution last night and kept it in the fridge. It can’t be this.

      Noura L

      From: Noura T. [mailto:n-ocean@...]
      Sent: 02 شباط, 2015 12:46 م
      To: 'AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com'
      Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

      Hi Ray,

      The Barb went lying on his side right after the last PWC 2 hours ago. And he’s still like that.

      Test results are the same as last time.

      I matched the temperature for the added water and added the 3 medications, so not sure what’s wrong. He seemed okay before the change L

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 02 شباط, 2015 08:28 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       


      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56581 From: Noura T. Date: 2/5/2015
      Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

      That is outstanding!

      Smart Barbs ;-)

       

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 05 شباط, 2015 04:27 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

       

      Hi Ray,

       Just a point of interest with you mentioning about Bettas life spans, what is the average life span of Rosy & Cherry Barbs? The reason being I know of two fish which were in a tropical community tank given to a friend in early 2011. From memory there were three Rosy Barbs, a couple of Cherry Barbs & several others that I don't know. Gradually over the years they died off & the remaining two fish from this tank have now found a great home with a fishkeeper in Derby. The Rosy Barb is over 4 inches long & only has one eye-he was born like that, it wasn't an injury. He positions himself next to the glass with his one eye looking into the tank so he can literally keep a eye on things! In addition he's become the dominant fish of several smaller Rosy Barbs in his new home. The Cherry Barb is also doing well & like his friend has taken change of the other Rosy Barb in the tank. The original tank had been set up for about two years before my friend got it so that means these two fish are getting on for 7 years old.

         John<o)))<

       

      On 4 February 2015 at 19:58, 'Noura T.' n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Hi Ray,

      I currently have 3 running tanks J

      The two you mentioned, and a smaller Guppies tank that has 4 Guppies and is crowded with successfully growing plants (Anubias Nana, and some kind of Sword something.. I think.. lol). The “new one” with the broken base that we discussed a few months ago is still on the balcony, empty. We were no longer enthusiastic to set it up, considering the general situation around here.

      I used to have a Beta bowl (1.5 G) some years ago as well. But we felt bad for him in that small space, and moved him to the 20 G where he occupied and protected the 2 inches high corner right above the filter for a year or so J.

       

      Noura

       

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 04 شباط, 2015 03:05 م


      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

       

      Hi Noura,

       

      I don't remember you ever mentioning how many tanks you have, probably because that topic never came up before.  I know you have a tank of Yellow Lab Malawi Cichlids, which didn't cross my mind presently until you mentioned having Smoky.  Then, I was starting to wonder if you have Smoky in with the Malawi fish and was about to ask you about this when I now see you also have a small Pleco and a Clown Loach (which I hadn't recalled), all three fish (only) in a 20 gallon tank.  So then you have at least two tanks.  I do recall that the Malawi Cichlid aquarium is a 29 gallon tank.  Obviously, you no longer have the Black Angelfish.  Do you have any other tanks?  

       

      Ray

          

       

      In a message dated 2/3/2015 7:23:38 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

       

      Hi John,

      The Angelfish is not nocturnal, I turned the lights on to take these pics and he remained asleep for 2 more minutes! I only realized it because he didn’t move to me lol

      When I tapped on the glass gently, he woke up! I don’t know how tame fish can be (other than Goldfish), but almost all of them will take food from my finger at the surface, they would happily eat my finger as well if they could! Lol

      Yes the Clown Loach is a very funny fish! He has takes weirdest positions! They would gather behind rocks like a fish pile when there were several young ones.

      He can stand upside down in a corner, empties his caves from small shells that somehow got in, makes clicking sounds when eating flakes or lettuce, and yes.. he digs the gravel and moves it around. I noticed he’s digging a long hole inside the cave, maybe to accommodate his growing height. I never imagined he will get this big when I made those caves!

      He’s HUGE… almost as long as Smoky “excluding the tail”, but I know he could get much bigger. (He or she, I don’t know)

      I used to exchange my growing fish for smaller ones at the petshop before, but in these tough circumstances I haven’t changed anything. Haven’t replaced dead fish, and also I didn’t want to take the big ones to the shop, because I knew there’s a very slim chance for them to be properly taken care of in another home.

      So, we’re sticking together for the time being J

      There are only 3 fish in the 20 G.

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 04 شباط, 2015 02:06 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

      Hi Noura,

        It took under 10 minutes to approve your photos, they were already approved when I looked-someone is on the ball! Thanks for replying so fast-Smoky is a great looking fish, are they nocturnal? I don't know a lot about Angels, are they tame & can they get to feed from your hand?

      I remember several years before I got fish seeing a tropical community tank in an old folks home & I was very taken with one particular fish in that tank which I now know to be a Clown Loach. I loved the way it stood on it's front fins like it was paying attention to something. This particular fish would dig a hole in the gravel & build all the stones up in a pile next to the hole-does your do that?

        John<o)))<

      On 3 February 2015 at 23:41, 'Noura T.' n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Here’s my big boy Smoky.. He’s a monster J

      I wanted to take pics of the Clown Loach, but they were sleeping. He/she likes to hide in those caves, especially at night, like now.

      (It could take a while before the new photos are approved)

      https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/AquaticLife/photos/albums/1956468285

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 04 شباط, 2015 01:05 ص


      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

      Oh thank you John J

      I sure will!

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 04 شباط, 2015 12:41 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

      Hi Noura,

        I just looked at Smoky as a baby-you must be very proud of him he's a great looking fish. I'd be interested to see what he looks like now if you can post some pictures anytime.

        John<o)))<

      On 3 February 2015 at 09:05, 'Noura T.' n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      :-D

      His baby pics are in the photos section!

      I think the folder is Noura’s tanks , or something like that. He was tinyyy!

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 03 شباط, 2015 01:35 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

      Smoky is a big boy!

        John<o)))<

      On 2 February 2015 at 18:55, 'Noura T.' n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Thanks for your kind words, Ray. And for all your, and John’s help.

      Exactly, he was sitting upright just before the water change, and breathing at an almost normal rate. And went lying on his side immediately after it.

      I’ve been turning this in my head all day… I know I did everything I could, but I really had high hopes for him after his condition stabilized.

      Your thoughts about the extreme weakness made me think that maybe the water movement while I was adding the new water have exhausted him completely, and beyond recovery. I wasn’t pouring water directly and heavily, I have put a 500 ml cup on the tank’s bottom and poured the new water in it so that water spilled from all its edges like a round fountain. Still, I noticed there were some currents that dragged Silver around a little in the tiny tank.

      I examined the tank very carefully today before changing water, and there were no droppings at all. It could well be that he hasn’t eaten in a week. Sigh…

      Last time I had to medicate a fish so intensely was with a smoky Anglefish, about 3 or 4 years ago. The hospital tank was barely deep enough for his rotten fins length. He had a really bad case of fin rot and wounds due to fighting for 5 minutes with the black Angelfish. His fins almost reached the flesh in places where they were torn. I had to medicate him for 8 weeks, with extensive PWCs “He was 3” long”. But he came around beautifully. I still have him now in the 20 G with a small Pleco and one survivor Clown Loach. Smoky is now more than 25 cm tall!

      We don’t get to win the fight everytime.. eh..

      Now I have to tell my mom L.

      Her tank is empty now. Anything to do to disinfect it before she gets any new fish?

      Thanks for your valuable help though this!

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 02 شباط, 2015 06:42 م
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

      Hi Noura.

      I'm so sorry to hear that this fish didn't make it, especially after all the effort you went through in trying to help him.  I read both you messages, but thought I'd reply to this one first.  I have no specific reason why he died, but I extremely doubt it was because you prepared the Erythromycin solution last night and stored it in there fridge.  The worst thing they could have happened to the medication would have been that it lost some of its effectiveness, but that wouldn't have adversely affect him like this. 

      Don't blame yourself if that's what you think, as the only thing that an inadequately strong medication would do would be to allow the disease to advance slightly.  That would only mean that the disease would take a bit longer to completely cure.  Of course, that could (but not necessarily) also allow for a mutation of the disease to develop, making it harder to cure the disease but that's not going to happen in a matter of hours. 

      While I wasn't there to see exactly how well (or how poorly) he was doing just before the PWC, and only know that he was sitting upright on the bottom of the tank -- since you said he was lying on the bottom of the tank after this last PWC (a marked difference) -- In my estimation, his constantly weakening state from not eating is what finally did him in.  I've seen enough fish that have gone on a temporary hunger strike and were no longer able to swim because of their weakened condition, only to have never been able to pull out of this condition and die despite regaining their appetite and eating well again. 

      Many just don't make it and while Carp (which would include Barbs) may do this on occasion and regain their abilities, the smaller the fish is the less likely it's system is able to cope with such malnutrition.  One major reason why I was hoping he'd start eating.  I also don't believe it was the disease itself that overwhelmed him as you did everything you could to combat it and I doubt he was battling it at all anymore.  Still, even if a fish is completely cured, the medications need to be continued for the full duration of the treatment to prevent a relapse, and you were continuing his treatment at this time.  I applaude your efforts and all the care you've shown!      

      Best regards,

      Ray

      In a message dated 2/2/2015 11:07:59 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

       

      He’s gone L

      Unbelievable…

      I’m sure it has to do with the last PWC about 3 hours ago. But I can’t think of the direct reason, I did everything exactly the same way as before.

      The only difference is that I prepared the Erythormycin solution last night and kept it in the fridge. It can’t be this.

      Noura L

      From: Noura T. [mailto:n-ocean@...]
      Sent: 02 شباط, 2015 12:46 م
      To: 'AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com'
      Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

      Hi Ray,

      The Barb went lying on his side right after the last PWC 2 hours ago. And he’s still like that.

      Test results are the same as last time.

      I matched the temperature for the added water and added the 3 medications, so not sure what’s wrong. He seemed okay before the change L

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 02 شباط, 2015 08:28 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

       

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56582 From: sevenspringss Date: 2/5/2015
      Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
      AOL Email
      Hi Noura,
       
      Now that you mention it, I do seem to recall your saying you had Guppies.  I just didn't know how many.  I guess because the thread on here about the "new" tank that needs repair was kind of left up in limbo, I had forgotten about this tank.  I can understand why you'd lose enthusiasm about it with all that's going on.  Well, at least you have this tank on hand for when the time comes to work on it. 
       
      Actually, compared to small containers that some hobbyists still keep their Bettas in, a 1.5 gallon tank isn't all that small.  A 2.5 gallon  (or even a 5 gallon) tank does offer the fish a much better quality of life though and by your putting this fish in the 20 gallon tank, he probably even felt "lost" at first (LOL).  Bettas aren't always considered as community tank tankmates however, but this depends on what other fish occupy the same tank.  The first Betta I had went into a 15 gallon community tank and did well, but did get a bit aggressive against smaller, slower moving fish.  Have you seen any young Yellow Labs in you Malawi tank that may have been produced there?  Or perhaps they got eaten if there isn't enough cover for them to hide in.  
       
      Ray     
       
       
       
      In a message dated 2/4/2015 8:57:46 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hi Ray,

      I currently have 3 running tanks J

      The two you mentioned, and a smaller Guppies tank that has 4 Guppies and is crowded with successfully growing plants (Anubias Nana, and some kind of Sword something.. I think.. lol). The “new one” with the broken base that we discussed a few months ago is still on the balcony, empty. We were no longer enthusiastic to set it up, considering the general situation around here.

      I used to have a Beta bowl (1.5 G) some years ago as well. But we felt bad for him in that small space, and moved him to the 20 G where he occupied and protected the 2 inches high corner right above the filter for a year or so J.

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 04 شباط, 2015 03:05 م
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

      Hi Noura,

      I don't remember you ever mentioning how many tanks you have, probably because that topic never came up before.  I know you have a tank of Yellow Lab Malawi Cichlids, which didn't cross my mind presently until you mentioned having Smoky.  Then, I was starting to wonder if you have Smoky in with the Malawi fish and was about to ask you about this when I now see you also have a small Pleco and a Clown Loach (which I hadn't recalled), all three fish (only) in a 20 gallon tank.  So then you have at least two tanks.  I do recall that the Malawi Cichlid aquarium is a 29 gallon tank.  Obviously, you no longer have the Black Angelfish.  Do you have any other tanks?  

      Ray

          

      In a message dated 2/3/2015 7:23:38 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

       

      Hi John,

      The Angelfish is not nocturnal, I turned the lights on to take these pics and he remained asleep for 2 more minutes! I only realized it because he didn’t move to me lol

      When I tapped on the glass gently, he woke up! I don’t know how tame fish can be (other than Goldfish), but almost all of them will take food from my finger at the surface, they would happily eat my finger as well if they could! Lol

      Yes the Clown Loach is a very funny fish! He has takes weirdest positions! They would gather behind rocks like a fish pile when there were several young ones.

      He can stand upside down in a corner, empties his caves from small shells that somehow got in, makes clicking sounds when eating flakes or lettuce, and yes.. he digs the gravel and moves it around. I noticed he’s digging a long hole inside the cave, maybe to accommodate his growing height. I never imagined he will get this big when I made those caves!

      He’s HUGE… almost as long as Smoky “excluding the tail”, but I know he could get much bigger. (He or she, I don’t know)

      I used to exchange my growing fish for smaller ones at the petshop before, but in these tough circumstances I haven’t changed anything. Haven’t replaced dead fish, and also I didn’t want to take the big ones to the shop, because I knew there’s a very slim chance for them to be properly taken care of in another home.

      So, we’re sticking together for the time being J

      There are only 3 fish in the 20 G.

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 04 شباط, 2015 02:06 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

      Hi Noura,

        It took under 10 minutes to approve your photos, they were already approved when I looked-someone is on the ball! Thanks for replying so fast-Smoky is a great looking fish, are they nocturnal? I don't know a lot about Angels, are they tame & can they get to feed from your hand?

      I remember several years before I got fish seeing a tropical community tank in an old folks home & I was very taken with one particular fish in that tank which I now know to be a Clown Loach. I loved the way it stood on it's front fins like it was paying attention to something. This particular fish would dig a hole in the gravel & build all the stones up in a pile next to the hole-does your do that?

        John<o)))<

      On 3 February 2015 at 23:41, 'Noura T.' n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Here’s my big boy Smoky.. He’s a monster J

      I wanted to take pics of the Clown Loach, but they were sleeping. He/she likes to hide in those caves, especially at night, like now.

      (It could take a while before the new photos are approved)

      https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/AquaticLife/photos/albums/1956468285

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 04 شباط, 2015 01:05 ص


      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

      Oh thank you John J

      I sure will!

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 04 شباط, 2015 12:41 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

      Hi Noura,

        I just looked at Smoky as a baby-you must be very proud of him he's a great looking fish. I'd be interested to see what he looks like now if you can post some pictures anytime.

        John<o)))<

      On 3 February 2015 at 09:05, 'Noura T.' n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      :-D

      His baby pics are in the photos section!

      I think the folder is Noura’s tanks , or something like that. He was tinyyy!

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 03 شباط, 2015 01:35 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

      Smoky is a big boy!

        John<o)))<

      On 2 February 2015 at 18:55, 'Noura T.' n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Thanks for your kind words, Ray. And for all your, and John’s help.

      Exactly, he was sitting upright just before the water change, and breathing at an almost normal rate. And went lying on his side immediately after it.

      I’ve been turning this in my head all day… I know I did everything I could, but I really had high hopes for him after his condition stabilized.

      Your thoughts about the extreme weakness made me think that maybe the water movement while I was adding the new water have exhausted him completely, and beyond recovery. I wasn’t pouring water directly and heavily, I have put a 500 ml cup on the tank’s bottom and poured the new water in it so that water spilled from all its edges like a round fountain. Still, I noticed there were some currents that dragged Silver around a little in the tiny tank.

      I examined the tank very carefully today before changing water, and there were no droppings at all. It could well be that he hasn’t eaten in a week. Sigh…

      Last time I had to medicate a fish so intensely was with a smoky Anglefish, about 3 or 4 years ago. The hospital tank was barely deep enough for his rotten fins length. He had a really bad case of fin rot and wounds due to fighting for 5 minutes with the black Angelfish. His fins almost reached the flesh in places where they were torn. I had to medicate him for 8 weeks, with extensive PWCs “He was 3” long”. But he came around beautifully. I still have him now in the 20 G with a small Pleco and one survivor Clown Loach. Smoky is now more than 25 cm tall!

      We don’t get to win the fight everytime.. eh..

      Now I have to tell my mom L.

      Her tank is empty now. Anything to do to disinfect it before she gets any new fish?

      Thanks for your valuable help though this!

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 02 شباط, 2015 06:42 م
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

      Hi Noura.

      I'm so sorry to hear that this fish didn't make it, especially after all the effort you went through in trying to help him.  I read both you messages, but thought I'd reply to this one first.  I have no specific reason why he died, but I extremely doubt it was because you prepared the Erythromycin solution last night and stored it in there fridge.  The worst thing they could have happened to the medication would have been that it lost some of its effectiveness, but that wouldn't have adversely affect him like this. 

      Don't blame yourself if that's what you think, as the only thing that an inadequately strong medication would do would be to allow the disease to advance slightly.  That would only mean that the disease would take a bit longer to completely cure.  Of course, that could (but not necessarily) also allow for a mutation of the disease to develop, making it harder to cure the disease but that's not going to happen in a matter of hours. 

      While I wasn't there to see exactly how well (or how poorly) he was doing just before the PWC, and only know that he was sitting upright on the bottom of the tank -- since you said he was lying on the bottom of the tank after this last PWC (a marked difference) -- In my estimation, his constantly weakening state from not eating is what finally did him in.  I've seen enough fish that have gone on a temporary hunger strike and were no longer able to swim because of their weakened condition, only to have never been able to pull out of this condition and die despite regaining their appetite and eating well again. 

      Many just don't make it and while Carp (which would include Barbs) may do this on occasion and regain their abilities, the smaller the fish is the less likely it's system is able to cope with such malnutrition.  One major reason why I was hoping he'd start eating.  I also don't believe it was the disease itself that overwhelmed him as you did everything you could to combat it and I doubt he was battling it at all anymore.  Still, even if a fish is completely cured, the medications need to be continued for the full duration of the treatment to prevent a relapse, and you were continuing his treatment at this time.  I applaude your efforts and all the care you've shown!      

      Best regards,

      Ray

      In a message dated 2/2/2015 11:07:59 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

       

      He’s gone L

      Unbelievable…

      I’m sure it has to do with the last PWC about 3 hours ago. But I can’t think of the direct reason, I did everything exactly the same way as before.

      The only difference is that I prepared the Erythormycin solution last night and kept it in the fridge. It can’t be this.

      Noura L

      From: Noura T. [mailto:n-ocean@...]
      Sent: 02 شباط, 2015 12:46 م
      To: 'AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com'
      Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

      Hi Ray,

      The Barb went lying on his side right after the last PWC 2 hours ago. And he’s still like that.

      Test results are the same as last time.

      I matched the temperature for the added water and added the 3 medications, so not sure what’s wrong. He seemed okay before the change L

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 02 شباط, 2015 08:28 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56583 From: andy_peltier Date: 2/5/2015
      Subject: Re: 29 gallon
      I do feed flake food Tetracolor and 5 little API cichlid pellets freeze dried blood worms and 2 Algae thins for the placo and the cory cats and barbs help eat them to. I feed twice a day in small amounts. A friend bought me 2 Algae balls to help. So far a little clearer I am going to leave the light off for a couple days and see If that helps.I did a 5 gallon water change yesterday and my ammonia is 0.25 ppm my nitrite is 0 and nitrate 0. I will keep you up dated.

      Andy
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56584 From: sevenspringss Date: 2/5/2015
      Subject: Re: 29 gallon
      AOL Email
      Andy,
       
      As you stated you do two PWC's per week, if you change 5 gallons each time, it's almost like changing 30% a week, although with each water change you make you're removing a small portion of the fresh water you added with the previous PWC.  The end result isn't equivalent to changing 10 gallons per week.  Normally, but also depending on your bioload, it's encouraged to make a 1/3 PWC per week.  Your ten fish would constitute a fully stocked tank especially if they've reach their full mature size, and especially if this Pleco was one of the more common species -- which can easily reach 18" and more.  I do see that you'll be moving the Tiger Barbs to a "species" tank just for them, so that will relieve much of the load.
       
      Those algae balls will help in removing the nutrients that suspended algae need to thrive on so they'll be a help.  Instead of turning the light off completely for a few days, I'd suggest you just cut back on the number of hours you have them on.  As the water seems a little clearer already, the Algae balls will need light to continue absorbing any excess organic nitrogenous wastes in the water. 
       
      Your 0.25 ppm ammonia value appears to be what it's presently at, after the 5 gallon water change.  If I'm understanding this correctly, this tends to show that you could have removed more water as ideally, the ammonia should read zero.  After four months of having this tank set up, it should be fully cycled, but with having an ammonia content and with having no nitrate, it would appear as though the cycle may have been interrupted and/or you're possibly overfeeding the fish despite your description of feeding "small amounts."  The reason why I mention that a zero nitrate level indicates that there's something wrong with your cycle is because unless you make very large (like 75%) water changes each time to remove it, there will always be at least some certain level of nitrate existing in the water at all times -- if the ammonia is being converted to nitrate (with first converting into nitrite), as it's expected to, even if that level is only 5.0 ppm.  Most often, with the average tank and again depending on the bioload, it might read closer to around 20 ppm on average (with 40 ppm being the maximum it should be allowed to reach).  Nitrate is constantly building up in the water due to the process of nitrification (the breaking down of organic wastes from the fish), which is the major reason why we need to change water -- to keep removing it.  Changing a scarce 10 gallons of water a week would not reduce the nitrate produced from a fully stocked tank of fish to zero -- unless there were very little (to none) nitrate being converted from nitrite and in turn, very little (to none) nitrite being converted from the ammonia that the fish are producing. 
       
      An ammonia level of 0.25 can be very toxic to the fish, especially the higher the pH level is.  For now, I'd advise doing larger PWC's to reduce the ammonia or at least add your water conditioner (dechloraminator) every day until your ammonia level starts dropping naturally via the nitrogen cycle and you see an increase in your nitrate, before doing your PWC's.  I'm trusting you have chloramine in your water, as an additive by your water company, and that your using this type of water conditioner, which will detoxify any ammonia being produced by the fish, between PWC's, if you use it every day.
       
      Ray      
       
      In a message dated 2/5/2015 9:12:14 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      I do feed flake food Tetracolor and 5 little API cichlid pellets freeze dried blood worms and 2 Algae thins for the placo and the cory cats and barbs help eat them to. I feed twice a day in small amounts. A friend bought me 2 Algae balls to help. So far a little clearer I am going to leave the light off for a couple days and see If that helps.I did a 5 gallon water change yesterday and my ammonia is 0.25 ppm my nitrite is 0 and nitrate 0. I will keep you up dated.

      Andy

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56585 From: Noura T. Date: 2/5/2015
      Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

      Hi Ray,

      You’re absolutely right. The Betta never “blended in” the 20 G. He just occupied that 2” deep corner above the filter, probably because it’s one of a few places that the tall Angel can’t harass him in!

      The yellow labs never produced anything, I think they could be 2 males. I only wanted to keep Cichlids to witness their amazing parenting habits. The reason I’m sure they didn’t produce any fry, is because both of them have been eating every single day! They stick their heads about 1 cm above the water surface when food is coming!

      A broody cichlid would stop eating, as far as I know.

       

      Ray please check the post I sent yesterday, where I was talking about my Clown Loach’s behavior. I sent it again today but it wasn’t approved.

      I have also uploaded to pics of my Clown Loach laying in his cave J:

      https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/AquaticLife/photos/albums/1956468285

       

       

      Noura

       

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 05 شباط, 2015 04:11 م
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

       

      Hi Noura,

       

      Now that you mention it, I do seem to recall your saying you had Guppies.  I just didn't know how many.  I guess because the thread on here about the "new" tank that needs repair was kind of left up in limbo, I had forgotten about this tank.  I can understand why you'd lose enthusiasm about it with all that's going on.  Well, at least you have this tank on hand for when the time comes to work on it. 

       

      Actually, compared to small containers that some hobbyists still keep their Bettas in, a 1.5 gallon tank isn't all that small.  A 2.5 gallon  (or even a 5 gallon) tank does offer the fish a much better quality of life though and by your putting this fish in the 20 gallon tank, he probably even felt "lost" at first (LOL).  Bettas aren't always considered as community tank tankmates however, but this depends on what other fish occupy the same tank.  The first Betta I had went into a 15 gallon community tank and did well, but did get a bit aggressive against smaller, slower moving fish.  Have you seen any young Yellow Labs in you Malawi tank that may have been produced there?  Or perhaps they got eaten if there isn't enough cover for them to hide in.  

       

      Ray     

       

       

       

      In a message dated 2/4/2015 8:57:46 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

       

      Hi Ray,

      I currently have 3 running tanks J

      The two you mentioned, and a smaller Guppies tank that has 4 Guppies and is crowded with successfully growing plants (Anubias Nana, and some kind of Sword something.. I think.. lol). The “new one” with the broken base that we discussed a few months ago is still on the balcony, empty. We were no longer enthusiastic to set it up, considering the general situation around here.

      I used to have a Beta bowl (1.5 G) some years ago as well. But we felt bad for him in that small space, and moved him to the 20 G where he occupied and protected the 2 inches high corner right above the filter for a year or so J.

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 04 شباط, 2015 03:05 م
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

      Hi Noura,

      I don't remember you ever mentioning how many tanks you have, probably because that topic never came up before.  I know you have a tank of Yellow Lab Malawi Cichlids, which didn't cross my mind presently until you mentioned having Smoky.  Then, I was starting to wonder if you have Smoky in with the Malawi fish and was about to ask you about this when I now see you also have a small Pleco and a Clown Loach (which I hadn't recalled), all three fish (only) in a 20 gallon tank.  So then you have at least two tanks.  I do recall that the Malawi Cichlid aquarium is a 29 gallon tank.  Obviously, you no longer have the Black Angelfish.  Do you have any other tanks?  

      Ray

          

      In a message dated 2/3/2015 7:23:38 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

       

      Hi John,

      The Angelfish is not nocturnal, I turned the lights on to take these pics and he remained asleep for 2 more minutes! I only realized it because he didn’t move to me lol

      When I tapped on the glass gently, he woke up! I don’t know how tame fish can be (other than Goldfish), but almost all of them will take food from my finger at the surface, they would happily eat my finger as well if they could! Lol

      Yes the Clown Loach is a very funny fish! He has takes weirdest positions! They would gather behind rocks like a fish pile when there were several young ones.

      He can stand upside down in a corner, empties his caves from small shells that somehow got in, makes clicking sounds when eating flakes or lettuce, and yes.. he digs the gravel and moves it around. I noticed he’s digging a long hole inside the cave, maybe to accommodate his growing height. I never imagined he will get this big when I made those caves!

      He’s HUGE… almost as long as Smoky “excluding the tail”, but I know he could get much bigger. (He or she, I don’t know)

      I used to exchange my growing fish for smaller ones at the petshop before, but in these tough circumstances I haven’t changed anything. Haven’t replaced dead fish, and also I didn’t want to take the big ones to the shop, because I knew there’s a very slim chance for them to be properly taken care of in another home.

      So, we’re sticking together for the time being J

      There are only 3 fish in the 20 G.

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 04 شباط, 2015 02:06 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

      Hi Noura,

        It took under 10 minutes to approve your photos, they were already approved when I looked-someone is on the ball! Thanks for replying so fast-Smoky is a great looking fish, are they nocturnal? I don't know a lot about Angels, are they tame & can they get to feed from your hand?

      I remember several years before I got fish seeing a tropical community tank in an old folks home & I was very taken with one particular fish in that tank which I now know to be a Clown Loach. I loved the way it stood on it's front fins like it was paying attention to something. This particular fish would dig a hole in the gravel & build all the stones up in a pile next to the hole-does your do that?

        John<o)))<

      On 3 February 2015 at 23:41, 'Noura T.' n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Here’s my big boy Smoky.. He’s a monster J

      I wanted to take pics of the Clown Loach, but they were sleeping. He/she likes to hide in those caves, especially at night, like now.

      (It could take a while before the new photos are approved)

      https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/AquaticLife/photos/albums/1956468285

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 04 شباط, 2015 01:05 ص


      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

      Oh thank you John J

      I sure will!

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 04 شباط, 2015 12:41 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

      Hi Noura,

        I just looked at Smoky as a baby-you must be very proud of him he's a great looking fish. I'd be interested to see what he looks like now if you can post some pictures anytime.

        John<o)))<

      On 3 February 2015 at 09:05, 'Noura T.' n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      :-D

      His baby pics are in the photos section!

      I think the folder is Noura’s tanks , or something like that. He was tinyyy!

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 03 شباط, 2015 01:35 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

      Smoky is a big boy!

        John<o)))<

      On 2 February 2015 at 18:55, 'Noura T.' n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Thanks for your kind words, Ray. And for all your, and John’s help.

      Exactly, he was sitting upright just before the water change, and breathing at an almost normal rate. And went lying on his side immediately after it.

      I’ve been turning this in my head all day… I know I did everything I could, but I really had high hopes for him after his condition stabilized.

      Your thoughts about the extreme weakness made me think that maybe the water movement while I was adding the new water have exhausted him completely, and beyond recovery. I wasn’t pouring water directly and heavily, I have put a 500 ml cup on the tank’s bottom and poured the new water in it so that water spilled from all its edges like a round fountain. Still, I noticed there were some currents that dragged Silver around a little in the tiny tank.

      I examined the tank very carefully today before changing water, and there were no droppings at all. It could well be that he hasn’t eaten in a week. Sigh…

      Last time I had to medicate a fish so intensely was with a smoky Anglefish, about 3 or 4 years ago. The hospital tank was barely deep enough for his rotten fins length. He had a really bad case of fin rot and wounds due to fighting for 5 minutes with the black Angelfish. His fins almost reached the flesh in places where they were torn. I had to medicate him for 8 weeks, with extensive PWCs “He was 3” long”. But he came around beautifully. I still have him now in the 20 G with a small Pleco and one survivor Clown Loach. Smoky is now more than 25 cm tall!

      We don’t get to win the fight everytime.. eh..

      Now I have to tell my mom L.

      Her tank is empty now. Anything to do to disinfect it before she gets any new fish?

      Thanks for your valuable help though this!

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 02 شباط, 2015 06:42 م
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

      Hi Noura.

      I'm so sorry to hear that this fish didn't make it, especially after all the effort you went through in trying to help him.  I read both you messages, but thought I'd reply to this one first.  I have no specific reason why he died, but I extremely doubt it was because you prepared the Erythromycin solution last night and stored it in there fridge.  The worst thing they could have happened to the medication would have been that it lost some of its effectiveness, but that wouldn't have adversely affect him like this. 

      Don't blame yourself if that's what you think, as the only thing that an inadequately strong medication would do would be to allow the disease to advance slightly.  That would only mean that the disease would take a bit longer to completely cure.  Of course, that could (but not necessarily) also allow for a mutation of the disease to develop, making it harder to cure the disease but that's not going to happen in a matter of hours. 

      While I wasn't there to see exactly how well (or how poorly) he was doing just before the PWC, and only know that he was sitting upright on the bottom of the tank -- since you said he was lying on the bottom of the tank after this last PWC (a marked difference) -- In my estimation, his constantly weakening state from not eating is what finally did him in.  I've seen enough fish that have gone on a temporary hunger strike and were no longer able to swim because of their weakened condition, only to have never been able to pull out of this condition and die despite regaining their appetite and eating well again. 

      Many just don't make it and while Carp (which would include Barbs) may do this on occasion and regain their abilities, the smaller the fish is the less likely it's system is able to cope with such malnutrition.  One major reason why I was hoping he'd start eating.  I also don't believe it was the disease itself that overwhelmed him as you did everything you could to combat it and I doubt he was battling it at all anymore.  Still, even if a fish is completely cured, the medications need to be continued for the full duration of the treatment to prevent a relapse, and you were continuing his treatment at this time.  I applaude your efforts and all the care you've shown!      

      Best regards,

      Ray

      In a message dated 2/2/2015 11:07:59 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

       

      He’s gone L

      Unbelievable…

      I’m sure it has to do with the last PWC about 3 hours ago. But I can’t think of the direct reason, I did everything exactly the same way as before.

      The only difference is that I prepared the Erythormycin solution last night and kept it in the fridge. It can’t be this.

      Noura L

      From: Noura T. [mailto:n-ocean@...]
      Sent: 02 شباط, 2015 12:46 م
      To: 'AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com'
      Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

      Hi Ray,

      The Barb went lying on his side right after the last PWC 2 hours ago. And he’s still like that.

      Test results are the same as last time.

      I matched the temperature for the added water and added the 3 medications, so not sure what’s wrong. He seemed okay before the change L

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 02 شباط, 2015 08:28 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56586 From: sevenspringss Date: 2/5/2015
      Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
      AOL Email
      Hi Noura,
       
      It's too bad that Bettas don't make good community fish; they're so nice looking.  Oh, I thought you had a small group of the Yellow Labs.  Yes, if a female is brooding young she won't eat for the most part.  An occasional female may take a very tiny piece of flake but that's about it.  Sounds like you may well have two males. 
       
      Yes, I read your Clown Loach's behavior with standing on their head to clumping up in a bunch behind rock like a pile of fish -- but I didn't see you describe any laying completely on their side like they were dead.  That's what made me bring this weird behavior to your attention.  I didn't see this same message to be approved this morning.  Might be it's another casualty of Cyberspace.  John or Harry would have approved it by now if it was available for the moderators to see even if I missed it.   
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 2/5/2015 12:21:52 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hi Ray,

      You’re absolutely right. The Betta never “blended in” the 20 G. He just occupied that 2” deep corner above the filter, probably because it’s one of a few places that the tall Angel can’t harass him in!

      The yellow labs never produced anything, I think they could be 2 males. I only wanted to keep Cichlids to witness their amazing parenting habits. The reason I’m sure they didn’t produce any fry, is because both of them have been eating every single day! They stick their heads about 1 cm above the water surface when food is coming!

      A broody cichlid would stop eating, as far as I know.

      Ray please check the post I sent yesterday, where I was talking about my Clown Loach’s behavior. I sent it again today but it wasn’t approved.

      I have also uploaded to pics of my Clown Loach laying in his cave J:

      https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/AquaticLife/photos/albums/1956468285

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 05 شباط, 2015 04:11 م
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

      Hi Noura,

      Now that you mention it, I do seem to recall your saying you had Guppies.  I just didn't know how many.  I guess because the thread on here about the "new" tank that needs repair was kind of left up in limbo, I had forgotten about this tank.  I can understand why you'd lose enthusiasm about it with all that's going on.  Well, at least you have this tank on hand for when the time comes to work on it. 

      Actually, compared to small containers that some hobbyists still keep their Bettas in, a 1.5 gallon tank isn't all that small.  A 2.5 gallon  (or even a 5 gallon) tank does offer the fish a much better quality of life though and by your putting this fish in the 20 gallon tank, he probably even felt "lost" at first (LOL).  Bettas aren't always considered as community tank tankmates however, but this depends on what other fish occupy the same tank.  The first Betta I had went into a 15 gallon community tank and did well, but did get a bit aggressive against smaller, slower moving fish.  Have you seen any young Yellow Labs in you Malawi tank that may have been produced there?  Or perhaps they got eaten if there isn't enough cover for them to hide in.  

      Ray     

      In a message dated 2/4/2015 8:57:46 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

       

      Hi Ray,

      I currently have 3 running tanks J

      The two you mentioned, and a smaller Guppies tank that has 4 Guppies and is crowded with successfully growing plants (Anubias Nana, and some kind of Sword something.. I think.. lol). The “new one” with the broken base that we discussed a few months ago is still on the balcony, empty. We were no longer enthusiastic to set it up, considering the general situation around here.

      I used to have a Beta bowl (1.5 G) some years ago as well. But we felt bad for him in that small space, and moved him to the 20 G where he occupied and protected the 2 inches high corner right above the filter for a year or so J.

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 04 شباط, 2015 03:05 م
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

      Hi Noura,

      I don't remember you ever mentioning how many tanks you have, probably because that topic never came up before.  I know you have a tank of Yellow Lab Malawi Cichlids, which didn't cross my mind presently until you mentioned having Smoky.  Then, I was starting to wonder if you have Smoky in with the Malawi fish and was about to ask you about this when I now see you also have a small Pleco and a Clown Loach (which I hadn't recalled), all three fish (only) in a 20 gallon tank.  So then you have at least two tanks.  I do recall that the Malawi Cichlid aquarium is a 29 gallon tank.  Obviously, you no longer have the Black Angelfish.  Do you have any other tanks?  

      Ray

          

      In a message dated 2/3/2015 7:23:38 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

       

      Hi John,

      The Angelfish is not nocturnal, I turned the lights on to take these pics and he remained asleep for 2 more minutes! I only realized it because he didn’t move to me lol

      When I tapped on the glass gently, he woke up! I don’t know how tame fish can be (other than Goldfish), but almost all of them will take food from my finger at the surface, they would happily eat my finger as well if they could! Lol

      Yes the Clown Loach is a very funny fish! He has takes weirdest positions! They would gather behind rocks like a fish pile when there were several young ones.

      He can stand upside down in a corner, empties his caves from small shells that somehow got in, makes clicking sounds when eating flakes or lettuce, and yes.. he digs the gravel and moves it around. I noticed he’s digging a long hole inside the cave, maybe to accommodate his growing height. I never imagined he will get this big when I made those caves!

      He’s HUGE… almost as long as Smoky “excluding the tail”, but I know he could get much bigger. (He or she, I don’t know)

      I used to exchange my growing fish for smaller ones at the petshop before, but in these tough circumstances I haven’t changed anything. Haven’t replaced dead fish, and also I didn’t want to take the big ones to the shop, because I knew there’s a very slim chance for them to be properly taken care of in another home.

      So, we’re sticking together for the time being J

      There are only 3 fish in the 20 G.

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 04 شباط, 2015 02:06 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

      Hi Noura,

        It took under 10 minutes to approve your photos, they were already approved when I looked-someone is on the ball! Thanks for replying so fast-Smoky is a great looking fish, are they nocturnal? I don't know a lot about Angels, are they tame & can they get to feed from your hand?

      I remember several years before I got fish seeing a tropical community tank in an old folks home & I was very taken with one particular fish in that tank which I now know to be a Clown Loach. I loved the way it stood on it's front fins like it was paying attention to something. This particular fish would dig a hole in the gravel & build all the stones up in a pile next to the hole-does your do that?

        John<o)))<

      On 3 February 2015 at 23:41, 'Noura T.' n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Here’s my big boy Smoky.. He’s a monster J

      I wanted to take pics of the Clown Loach, but they were sleeping. He/she likes to hide in those caves, especially at night, like now.

      (It could take a while before the new photos are approved)

      https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/AquaticLife/photos/albums/1956468285

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 04 شباط, 2015 01:05 ص


      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

      Oh thank you John J

      I sure will!

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 04 شباط, 2015 12:41 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

      Hi Noura,

        I just looked at Smoky as a baby-you must be very proud of him he's a great looking fish. I'd be interested to see what he looks like now if you can post some pictures anytime.

        John<o)))<

      On 3 February 2015 at 09:05, 'Noura T.' n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      :-D

      His baby pics are in the photos section!

      I think the folder is Noura’s tanks , or something like that. He was tinyyy!

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 03 شباط, 2015 01:35 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

      Smoky is a big boy!

        John<o)))<

      On 2 February 2015 at 18:55, 'Noura T.' n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Thanks for your kind words, Ray. And for all your, and John’s help.

      Exactly, he was sitting upright just before the water change, and breathing at an almost normal rate. And went lying on his side immediately after it.

      I’ve been turning this in my head all day… I know I did everything I could, but I really had high hopes for him after his condition stabilized.

      Your thoughts about the extreme weakness made me think that maybe the water movement while I was adding the new water have exhausted him completely, and beyond recovery. I wasn’t pouring water directly and heavily, I have put a 500 ml cup on the tank’s bottom and poured the new water in it so that water spilled from all its edges like a round fountain. Still, I noticed there were some currents that dragged Silver around a little in the tiny tank.

      I examined the tank very carefully today before changing water, and there were no droppings at all. It could well be that he hasn’t eaten in a week. Sigh…

      Last time I had to medicate a fish so intensely was with a smoky Anglefish, about 3 or 4 years ago. The hospital tank was barely deep enough for his rotten fins length. He had a really bad case of fin rot and wounds due to fighting for 5 minutes with the black Angelfish. His fins almost reached the flesh in places where they were torn. I had to medicate him for 8 weeks, with extensive PWCs “He was 3” long”. But he came around beautifully. I still have him now in the 20 G with a small Pleco and one survivor Clown Loach. Smoky is now more than 25 cm tall!

      We don’t get to win the fight everytime.. eh..

      Now I have to tell my mom L.

      Her tank is empty now. Anything to do to disinfect it before she gets any new fish?

      Thanks for your valuable help though this!

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 02 شباط, 2015 06:42 م
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

      Hi Noura.

      I'm so sorry to hear that this fish didn't make it, especially after all the effort you went through in trying to help him.  I read both you messages, but thought I'd reply to this one first.  I have no specific reason why he died, but I extremely doubt it was because you prepared the Erythromycin solution last night and stored it in there fridge.  The worst thing they could have happened to the medication would have been that it lost some of its effectiveness, but that wouldn't have adversely affect him like this. 

      Don't blame yourself if that's what you think, as the only thing that an inadequately strong medication would do would be to allow the disease to advance slightly.  That would only mean that the disease would take a bit longer to completely cure.  Of course, that could (but not necessarily) also allow for a mutation of the disease to develop, making it harder to cure the disease but that's not going to happen in a matter of hours. 

      While I wasn't there to see exactly how well (or how poorly) he was doing just before the PWC, and only know that he was sitting upright on the bottom of the tank -- since you said he was lying on the bottom of the tank after this last PWC (a marked difference) -- In my estimation, his constantly weakening state from not eating is what finally did him in.  I've seen enough fish that have gone on a temporary hunger strike and were no longer able to swim because of their weakened condition, only to have never been able to pull out of this condition and die despite regaining their appetite and eating well again. 

      Many just don't make it and while Carp (which would include Barbs) may do this on occasion and regain their abilities, the smaller the fish is the less likely it's system is able to cope with such malnutrition.  One major reason why I was hoping he'd start eating.  I also don't believe it was the disease itself that overwhelmed him as you did everything you could to combat it and I doubt he was battling it at all anymore.  Still, even if a fish is completely cured, the medications need to be continued for the full duration of the treatment to prevent a relapse, and you were continuing his treatment at this time.  I applaude your efforts and all the care you've shown!      

      Best regards,

      Ray

      In a message dated 2/2/2015 11:07:59 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

       

      He’s gone L

      Unbelievable…

      I’m sure it has to do with the last PWC about 3 hours ago. But I can’t think of the direct reason, I did everything exactly the same way as before.

      The only difference is that I prepared the Erythormycin solution last night and kept it in the fridge. It can’t be this.

      Noura L

      From: Noura T. [mailto:n-ocean@...]
      Sent: 02 شباط, 2015 12:46 م
      To: 'AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com'
      Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

      Hi Ray,

      The Barb went lying on his side right after the last PWC 2 hours ago. And he’s still like that.

      Test results are the same as last time.

      I matched the temperature for the added water and added the 3 medications, so not sure what’s wrong. He seemed okay before the change L

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 02 شباط, 2015 08:28 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56587 From: Noura T. Date: 2/5/2015
      Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

      Hi Ray,

      Yes there were 4 young Yellow labs about 3 years ago. These two are the ones that are left.

      I tried to “vent” them last year, and I saw nothing that looked even remotely like a female. They also fight occasionally, especially right after water changes (I usually change as much as 75% due to the expected consequences of our long power outages).

       

      I have re-sent the message I was talking about. Maybe third time’s a charm ;-)

       

      Noura

       

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 05 شباط, 2015 07:37 م
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

       

      Hi Noura,

       

      It's too bad that Bettas don't make good community fish; they're so nice looking.  Oh, I thought you had a small group of the Yellow Labs.  Yes, if a female is brooding young she won't eat for the most part.  An occasional female may take a very tiny piece of flake but that's about it.  Sounds like you may well have two males. 

       

      Yes, I read your Clown Loach's behavior with standing on their head to clumping up in a bunch behind rock like a pile of fish -- but I didn't see you describe any laying completely on their side like they were dead.  That's what made me bring this weird behavior to your attention.  I didn't see this same message to be approved this morning.  Might be it's another casualty of Cyberspace.  John or Harry would have approved it by now if it was available for the moderators to see even if I missed it.   

       

      Ray

       

       

      In a message dated 2/5/2015 12:21:52 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

       

      Hi Ray,

      You’re absolutely right. The Betta never “blended in” the 20 G. He just occupied that 2” deep corner above the filter, probably because it’s one of a few places that the tall Angel can’t harass him in!

      The yellow labs never produced anything, I think they could be 2 males. I only wanted to keep Cichlids to witness their amazing parenting habits. The reason I’m sure they didn’t produce any fry, is because both of them have been eating every single day! They stick their heads about 1 cm above the water surface when food is coming!

      A broody cichlid would stop eating, as far as I know.

      Ray please check the post I sent yesterday, where I was talking about my Clown Loach’s behavior. I sent it again today but it wasn’t approved.

      I have also uploaded to pics of my Clown Loach laying in his cave J:

      https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/AquaticLife/photos/albums/1956468285

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 05 شباط, 2015 04:11 م
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

      Hi Noura,

      Now that you mention it, I do seem to recall your saying you had Guppies.  I just didn't know how many.  I guess because the thread on here about the "new" tank that needs repair was kind of left up in limbo, I had forgotten about this tank.  I can understand why you'd lose enthusiasm about it with all that's going on.  Well, at least you have this tank on hand for when the time comes to work on it. 

      Actually, compared to small containers that some hobbyists still keep their Bettas in, a 1.5 gallon tank isn't all that small.  A 2.5 gallon  (or even a 5 gallon) tank does offer the fish a much better quality of life though and by your putting this fish in the 20 gallon tank, he probably even felt "lost" at first (LOL).  Bettas aren't always considered as community tank tankmates however, but this depends on what other fish occupy the same tank.  The first Betta I had went into a 15 gallon community tank and did well, but did get a bit aggressive against smaller, slower moving fish.  Have you seen any young Yellow Labs in you Malawi tank that may have been produced there?  Or perhaps they got eaten if there isn't enough cover for them to hide in.  

      Ray     

      In a message dated 2/4/2015 8:57:46 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

       

      Hi Ray,

      I currently have 3 running tanks J

      The two you mentioned, and a smaller Guppies tank that has 4 Guppies and is crowded with successfully growing plants (Anubias Nana, and some kind of Sword something.. I think.. lol). The “new one” with the broken base that we discussed a few months ago is still on the balcony, empty. We were no longer enthusiastic to set it up, considering the general situation around here.

      I used to have a Beta bowl (1.5 G) some years ago as well. But we felt bad for him in that small space, and moved him to the 20 G where he occupied and protected the 2 inches high corner right above the filter for a year or so J.

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 04 شباط, 2015 03:05 م
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

      Hi Noura,

      I don't remember you ever mentioning how many tanks you have, probably because that topic never came up before.  I know you have a tank of Yellow Lab Malawi Cichlids, which didn't cross my mind presently until you mentioned having Smoky.  Then, I was starting to wonder if you have Smoky in with the Malawi fish and was about to ask you about this when I now see you also have a small Pleco and a Clown Loach (which I hadn't recalled), all three fish (only) in a 20 gallon tank.  So then you have at least two tanks.  I do recall that the Malawi Cichlid aquarium is a 29 gallon tank.  Obviously, you no longer have the Black Angelfish.  Do you have any other tanks?  

      Ray

          

      In a message dated 2/3/2015 7:23:38 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

       

      Hi John,

      The Angelfish is not nocturnal, I turned the lights on to take these pics and he remained asleep for 2 more minutes! I only realized it because he didn’t move to me lol

      When I tapped on the glass gently, he woke up! I don’t know how tame fish can be (other than Goldfish), but almost all of them will take food from my finger at the surface, they would happily eat my finger as well if they could! Lol

      Yes the Clown Loach is a very funny fish! He has takes weirdest positions! They would gather behind rocks like a fish pile when there were several young ones.

      He can stand upside down in a corner, empties his caves from small shells that somehow got in, makes clicking sounds when eating flakes or lettuce, and yes.. he digs the gravel and moves it around. I noticed he’s digging a long hole inside the cave, maybe to accommodate his growing height. I never imagined he will get this big when I made those caves!

      He’s HUGE… almost as long as Smoky “excluding the tail”, but I know he could get much bigger. (He or she, I don’t know)

      I used to exchange my growing fish for smaller ones at the petshop before, but in these tough circumstances I haven’t changed anything. Haven’t replaced dead fish, and also I didn’t want to take the big ones to the shop, because I knew there’s a very slim chance for them to be properly taken care of in another home.

      So, we’re sticking together for the time being J

      There are only 3 fish in the 20 G.

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 04 شباط, 2015 02:06 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

      Hi Noura,

        It took under 10 minutes to approve your photos, they were already approved when I looked-someone is on the ball! Thanks for replying so fast-Smoky is a great looking fish, are they nocturnal? I don't know a lot about Angels, are they tame & can they get to feed from your hand?

      I remember several years before I got fish seeing a tropical community tank in an old folks home & I was very taken with one particular fish in that tank which I now know to be a Clown Loach. I loved the way it stood on it's front fins like it was paying attention to something. This particular fish would dig a hole in the gravel & build all the stones up in a pile next to the hole-does your do that?

        John<o)))<

      On 3 February 2015 at 23:41, 'Noura T.' n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Here’s my big boy Smoky.. He’s a monster J

      I wanted to take pics of the Clown Loach, but they were sleeping. He/she likes to hide in those caves, especially at night, like now.

      (It could take a while before the new photos are approved)

      https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/AquaticLife/photos/albums/1956468285

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 04 شباط, 2015 01:05 ص


      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

      Oh thank you John J

      I sure will!

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 04 شباط, 2015 12:41 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

      Hi Noura,

        I just looked at Smoky as a baby-you must be very proud of him he's a great looking fish. I'd be interested to see what he looks like now if you can post some pictures anytime.

        John<o)))<

      On 3 February 2015 at 09:05, 'Noura T.' n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      :-D

      His baby pics are in the photos section!

      I think the folder is Noura’s tanks , or something like that. He was tinyyy!

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 03 شباط, 2015 01:35 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

      Smoky is a big boy!

        John<o)))<

      On 2 February 2015 at 18:55, 'Noura T.' n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Thanks for your kind words, Ray. And for all your, and John’s help.

      Exactly, he was sitting upright just before the water change, and breathing at an almost normal rate. And went lying on his side immediately after it.

      I’ve been turning this in my head all day… I know I did everything I could, but I really had high hopes for him after his condition stabilized.

      Your thoughts about the extreme weakness made me think that maybe the water movement while I was adding the new water have exhausted him completely, and beyond recovery. I wasn’t pouring water directly and heavily, I have put a 500 ml cup on the tank’s bottom and poured the new water in it so that water spilled from all its edges like a round fountain. Still, I noticed there were some currents that dragged Silver around a little in the tiny tank.

      I examined the tank very carefully today before changing water, and there were no droppings at all. It could well be that he hasn’t eaten in a week. Sigh…

      Last time I had to medicate a fish so intensely was with a smoky Anglefish, about 3 or 4 years ago. The hospital tank was barely deep enough for his rotten fins length. He had a really bad case of fin rot and wounds due to fighting for 5 minutes with the black Angelfish. His fins almost reached the flesh in places where they were torn. I had to medicate him for 8 weeks, with extensive PWCs “He was 3” long”. But he came around beautifully. I still have him now in the 20 G with a small Pleco and one survivor Clown Loach. Smoky is now more than 25 cm tall!

      We don’t get to win the fight everytime.. eh..

      Now I have to tell my mom L.

      Her tank is empty now. Anything to do to disinfect it before she gets any new fish?

      Thanks for your valuable help though this!

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 02 شباط, 2015 06:42 م
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

      Hi Noura.

      I'm so sorry to hear that this fish didn't make it, especially after all the effort you went through in trying to help him.  I read both you messages, but thought I'd reply to this one first.  I have no specific reason why he died, but I extremely doubt it was because you prepared the Erythromycin solution last night and stored it in there fridge.  The worst thing they could have happened to the medication would have been that it lost some of its effectiveness, but that wouldn't have adversely affect him like this. 

      Don't blame yourself if that's what you think, as the only thing that an inadequately strong medication would do would be to allow the disease to advance slightly.  That would only mean that the disease would take a bit longer to completely cure.  Of course, that could (but not necessarily) also allow for a mutation of the disease to develop, making it harder to cure the disease but that's not going to happen in a matter of hours. 

      While I wasn't there to see exactly how well (or how poorly) he was doing just before the PWC, and only know that he was sitting upright on the bottom of the tank -- since you said he was lying on the bottom of the tank after this last PWC (a marked difference) -- In my estimation, his constantly weakening state from not eating is what finally did him in.  I've seen enough fish that have gone on a temporary hunger strike and were no longer able to swim because of their weakened condition, only to have never been able to pull out of this condition and die despite regaining their appetite and eating well again. 

      Many just don't make it and while Carp (which would include Barbs) may do this on occasion and regain their abilities, the smaller the fish is the less likely it's system is able to cope with such malnutrition.  One major reason why I was hoping he'd start eating.  I also don't believe it was the disease itself that overwhelmed him as you did everything you could to combat it and I doubt he was battling it at all anymore.  Still, even if a fish is completely cured, the medications need to be continued for the full duration of the treatment to prevent a relapse, and you were continuing his treatment at this time.  I applaude your efforts and all the care you've shown!      

      Best regards,

      Ray

      In a message dated 2/2/2015 11:07:59 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

       

      He’s gone L

      Unbelievable…

      I’m sure it has to do with the last PWC about 3 hours ago. But I can’t think of the direct reason, I did everything exactly the same way as before.

      The only difference is that I prepared the Erythormycin solution last night and kept it in the fridge. It can’t be this.

      Noura L

      From: Noura T. [mailto:n-ocean@...]
      Sent: 02 شباط, 2015 12:46 م
      To: 'AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com'
      Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

      Hi Ray,

      The Barb went lying on his side right after the last PWC 2 hours ago. And he’s still like that.

      Test results are the same as last time.

      I matched the temperature for the added water and added the 3 medications, so not sure what’s wrong. He seemed okay before the change L

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 02 شباط, 2015 08:28 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56588 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 2/5/2015
      Subject: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb
      Hi Noura,

        I did approve your pictures earlier & commented on one showing your Clown Loach in his house. As far as I can tell they are up & running for everyone to see now.

        John<o)))<

      On 5 February 2015 at 18:59, 'Noura T.' n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      Hi Ray,

      Yes there were 4 young Yellow labs about 3 years ago. These two are the ones that are left.

      I tried to “vent” them last year, and I saw nothing that looked even remotely like a female. They also fight occasionally, especially right after water changes (I usually change as much as 75% due to the expected consequences of our long power outages).

       

      I have re-sent the message I was talking about. Maybe third time’s a charm ;-)

       

      Noura

       

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 05 شباط, 2015 07:37 م


      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

       

      Hi Noura,

       

      It's too bad that Bettas don't make good community fish; they're so nice looking.  Oh, I thought you had a small group of the Yellow Labs.  Yes, if a female is brooding young she won't eat for the most part.  An occasional female may take a very tiny piece of flake but that's about it.  Sounds like you may well have two males. 

       

      Yes, I read your Clown Loach's behavior with standing on their head to clumping up in a bunch behind rock like a pile of fish -- but I didn't see you describe any laying completely on their side like they were dead.  That's what made me bring this weird behavior to your attention.  I didn't see this same message to be approved this morning.  Might be it's another casualty of Cyberspace.  John or Harry would have approved it by now if it was available for the moderators to see even if I missed it.   

       

      Ray

       

       

      In a message dated 2/5/2015 12:21:52 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

       

      Hi Ray,

      You’re absolutely right. The Betta never “blended in” the 20 G. He just occupied that 2” deep corner above the filter, probably because it’s one of a few places that the tall Angel can’t harass him in!

      The yellow labs never produced anything, I think they could be 2 males. I only wanted to keep Cichlids to witness their amazing parenting habits. The reason I’m sure they didn’t produce any fry, is because both of them have been eating every single day! They stick their heads about 1 cm above the water surface when food is coming!

      A broody cichlid would stop eating, as far as I know.

      Ray please check the post I sent yesterday, where I was talking about my Clown Loach’s behavior. I sent it again today but it wasn’t approved.

      I have also uploaded to pics of my Clown Loach laying in his cave J:

      https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/AquaticLife/photos/albums/1956468285

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 05 شباط, 2015 04:11 م
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

      Hi Noura,

      Now that you mention it, I do seem to recall your saying you had Guppies.  I just didn't know how many.  I guess because the thread on here about the "new" tank that needs repair was kind of left up in limbo, I had forgotten about this tank.  I can understand why you'd lose enthusiasm about it with all that's going on.  Well, at least you have this tank on hand for when the time comes to work on it. 

      Actually, compared to small containers that some hobbyists still keep their Bettas in, a 1.5 gallon tank isn't all that small.  A 2.5 gallon  (or even a 5 gallon) tank does offer the fish a much better quality of life though and by your putting this fish in the 20 gallon tank, he probably even felt "lost" at first (LOL).  Bettas aren't always considered as community tank tankmates however, but this depends on what other fish occupy the same tank.  The first Betta I had went into a 15 gallon community tank and did well, but did get a bit aggressive against smaller, slower moving fish.  Have you seen any young Yellow Labs in you Malawi tank that may have been produced there?  Or perhaps they got eaten if there isn't enough cover for them to hide in.  

      Ray     

      In a message dated 2/4/2015 8:57:46 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

       

      Hi Ray,

      I currently have 3 running tanks J

      The two you mentioned, and a smaller Guppies tank that has 4 Guppies and is crowded with successfully growing plants (Anubias Nana, and some kind of Sword something.. I think.. lol). The “new one” with the broken base that we discussed a few months ago is still on the balcony, empty. We were no longer enthusiastic to set it up, considering the general situation around here.

      I used to have a Beta bowl (1.5 G) some years ago as well. But we felt bad for him in that small space, and moved him to the 20 G where he occupied and protected the 2 inches high corner right above the filter for a year or so J.

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 04 شباط, 2015 03:05 م
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

      Hi Noura,

      I don't remember you ever mentioning how many tanks you have, probably because that topic never came up before.  I know you have a tank of Yellow Lab Malawi Cichlids, which didn't cross my mind presently until you mentioned having Smoky.  Then, I was starting to wonder if you have Smoky in with the Malawi fish and was about to ask you about this when I now see you also have a small Pleco and a Clown Loach (which I hadn't recalled), all three fish (only) in a 20 gallon tank.  So then you have at least two tanks.  I do recall that the Malawi Cichlid aquarium is a 29 gallon tank.  Obviously, you no longer have the Black Angelfish.  Do you have any other tanks?  

      Ray

          

      In a message dated 2/3/2015 7:23:38 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

       

      Hi John,

      The Angelfish is not nocturnal, I turned the lights on to take these pics and he remained asleep for 2 more minutes! I only realized it because he didn’t move to me lol

      When I tapped on the glass gently, he woke up! I don’t know how tame fish can be (other than Goldfish), but almost all of them will take food from my finger at the surface, they would happily eat my finger as well if they could! Lol

      Yes the Clown Loach is a very funny fish! He has takes weirdest positions! They would gather behind rocks like a fish pile when there were several young ones.

      He can stand upside down in a corner, empties his caves from small shells that somehow got in, makes clicking sounds when eating flakes or lettuce, and yes.. he digs the gravel and moves it around. I noticed he’s digging a long hole inside the cave, maybe to accommodate his growing height. I never imagined he will get this big when I made those caves!

      He’s HUGE… almost as long as Smoky “excluding the tail”, but I know he could get much bigger. (He or she, I don’t know)

      I used to exchange my growing fish for smaller ones at the petshop before, but in these tough circumstances I haven’t changed anything. Haven’t replaced dead fish, and also I didn’t want to take the big ones to the shop, because I knew there’s a very slim chance for them to be properly taken care of in another home.

      So, we’re sticking together for the time being J

      There are only 3 fish in the 20 G.

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 04 شباط, 2015 02:06 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

      Hi Noura,

        It took under 10 minutes to approve your photos, they were already approved when I looked-someone is on the ball! Thanks for replying so fast-Smoky is a great looking fish, are they nocturnal? I don't know a lot about Angels, are they tame & can they get to feed from your hand?

      I remember several years before I got fish seeing a tropical community tank in an old folks home & I was very taken with one particular fish in that tank which I now know to be a Clown Loach. I loved the way it stood on it's front fins like it was paying attention to something. This particular fish would dig a hole in the gravel & build all the stones up in a pile next to the hole-does your do that?

        John<o)))<

      On 3 February 2015 at 23:41, 'Noura T.' n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Here’s my big boy Smoky.. He’s a monster J

      I wanted to take pics of the Clown Loach, but they were sleeping. He/she likes to hide in those caves, especially at night, like now.

      (It could take a while before the new photos are approved)

      https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/AquaticLife/photos/albums/1956468285

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 04 شباط, 2015 01:05 ص


      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

      Oh thank you John J

      I sure will!

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 04 شباط, 2015 12:41 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

      Hi Noura,

        I just looked at Smoky as a baby-you must be very proud of him he's a great looking fish. I'd be interested to see what he looks like now if you can post some pictures anytime.

        John<o)))<

      On 3 February 2015 at 09:05, 'Noura T.' n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      :-D

      His baby pics are in the photos section!

      I think the folder is Noura’s tanks , or something like that. He was tinyyy!

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 03 شباط, 2015 01:35 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

      Smoky is a big boy!

        John<o)))<

      On 2 February 2015 at 18:55, 'Noura T.' n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Thanks for your kind words, Ray. And for all your, and John’s help.

      Exactly, he was sitting upright just before the water change, and breathing at an almost normal rate. And went lying on his side immediately after it.

      I’ve been turning this in my head all day… I know I did everything I could, but I really had high hopes for him after his condition stabilized.

      Your thoughts about the extreme weakness made me think that maybe the water movement while I was adding the new water have exhausted him completely, and beyond recovery. I wasn’t pouring water directly and heavily, I have put a 500 ml cup on the tank’s bottom and poured the new water in it so that water spilled from all its edges like a round fountain. Still, I noticed there were some currents that dragged Silver around a little in the tiny tank.

      I examined the tank very carefully today before changing water, and there were no droppings at all. It could well be that he hasn’t eaten in a week. Sigh…

      Last time I had to medicate a fish so intensely was with a smoky Anglefish, about 3 or 4 years ago. The hospital tank was barely deep enough for his rotten fins length. He had a really bad case of fin rot and wounds due to fighting for 5 minutes with the black Angelfish. His fins almost reached the flesh in places where they were torn. I had to medicate him for 8 weeks, with extensive PWCs “He was 3” long”. But he came around beautifully. I still have him now in the 20 G with a small Pleco and one survivor Clown Loach. Smoky is now more than 25 cm tall!

      We don’t get to win the fight everytime.. eh..

      Now I have to tell my mom L.

      Her tank is empty now. Anything to do to disinfect it before she gets any new fish?

      Thanks for your valuable help though this!

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 02 شباط, 2015 06:42 م
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       

      Hi Noura.

      I'm so sorry to hear that this fish didn't make it, especially after all the effort you went through in trying to help him.  I read both you messages, but thought I'd reply to this one first.  I have no specific reason why he died, but I extremely doubt it was because you prepared the Erythromycin solution last night and stored it in there fridge.  The worst thing they could have happened to the medication would have been that it lost some of its effectiveness, but that wouldn't have adversely affect him like this. 

      Don't blame yourself if that's what you think, as the only thing that an inadequately strong medication would do would be to allow the disease to advance slightly.  That would only mean that the disease would take a bit longer to completely cure.  Of course, that could (but not necessarily) also allow for a mutation of the disease to develop, making it harder to cure the disease but that's not going to happen in a matter of hours. 

      While I wasn't there to see exactly how well (or how poorly) he was doing just before the PWC, and only know that he was sitting upright on the bottom of the tank -- since you said he was lying on the bottom of the tank after this last PWC (a marked difference) -- In my estimation, his constantly weakening state from not eating is what finally did him in.  I've seen enough fish that have gone on a temporary hunger strike and were no longer able to swim because of their weakened condition, only to have never been able to pull out of this condition and die despite regaining their appetite and eating well again. 

      Many just don't make it and while Carp (which would include Barbs) may do this on occasion and regain their abilities, the smaller the fish is the less likely it's system is able to cope with such malnutrition.  One major reason why I was hoping he'd start eating.  I also don't believe it was the disease itself that overwhelmed him as you did everything you could to combat it and I doubt he was battling it at all anymore.  Still, even if a fish is completely cured, the medications need to be continued for the full duration of the treatment to prevent a relapse, and you were continuing his treatment at this time.  I applaude your efforts and all the care you've shown!      

      Best regards,

      Ray

      In a message dated 2/2/2015 11:07:59 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

       

      He’s gone L

      Unbelievable…

      I’m sure it has to do with the last PWC about 3 hours ago. But I can’t think of the direct reason, I did everything exactly the same way as before.

      The only difference is that I prepared the Erythormycin solution last night and kept it in the fridge. It can’t be this.

      Noura L

      From: Noura T. [mailto:n-ocean@...]
      Sent: 02 شباط, 2015 12:46 م
      To: 'AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com'
      Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

      Hi Ray,

      The Barb went lying on his side right after the last PWC 2 hours ago. And he’s still like that.

      Test results are the same as last time.

      I matched the temperature for the added water and added the 3 medications, so not sure what’s wrong. He seemed okay before the change L

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 02 شباط, 2015 08:28 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] RE: Re: Urgent Help: Rosy Barb

       


      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56589 From: harryleverett60 Date: 2/6/2015
      Subject: Quarantine Tank

      Morning Ray

      I am setting up a quarantine tank with its own separate set of of equipment, net water changing hoses and what not.

      Back when I was raising  Koi I was a stickler for quarantining  new fish but got lax with the indoor fish, never again.


      I always had a 500 gallon tank going for new koi or ones the need some extra care.

      I've read on a Cichlid forum or two the people don't keep hospital / quarantine tanks going, they keep them dry until right before they need them, which seems counterproductive to me. I have mine cycling right now with a ammonia cycle going. Am I think wrong?


      Do you do any prophylactic treatment to new fish. I read using salt is best and not using salt is the best way. As usual on the internet there is only one way to do something but its 25 completely different ways .


      Thanks Harry


      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56590 From: Donna Ransome Date: 2/6/2015
      Subject: Re: Quarantine Tank
      I like to keep an extra filter running on an established tank. Then if I need a hospital tank I just move the filter over.



      For Rift Lake Cichlids that are from a reputable source and tank raised…I quarantine but no prophylactic treatment.



      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: Friday, February 6, 2015 8:12 AM
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [AquaticLife] Quarantine Tank





      Morning Ray

      I am setting up a quarantine tank with its own separate set of of equipment, net water changing hoses and what not.

      Back when I was raising Koi I was a stickler for quarantining new fish but got lax with the indoor fish, never again.



      I always had a 500 gallon tank going for new koi or ones the need some extra care.

      I've read on a Cichlid forum or two the people don't keep hospital / quarantine tanks going, they keep them dry until right before they need them, which seems counterproductive to me. I have mine cycling right now with a ammonia cycle going. Am I think wrong?



      Do you do any prophylactic treatment to new fish. I read using salt is best and not using salt is the best way. As usual on the internet there is only one way to do something but its 25 completely different ways .



      Thanks Harry







      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56591 From: andy_peltier Date: 2/6/2015
      Subject: Re: 29 gallon
      I did a 50% water change yesterday morning and put a Penn-Plax 700 on the 29 and today the water is crystal clear and the test run ammonia 0ppm nitrite 0ppm nitrate 0ppm and the 20 long has finaly cycled and the readings on test are the same.I have a Sunsun 302 coming for the 20 long.I use the API master test kit.I will keep you posted and thanks for the addvise all.

      Andy
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56592 From: sevenspringss Date: 2/6/2015
      Subject: Re: Quarantine Tank
      AOL Email
      Hi Harry,
       
      I can't be positive as I don't know these hobbyists' intentions who keep their quarantine tanks dry up until the time they need them.  But as those tanks wouldn't be cycled, I feel that your keeping the tank cycled is the best way to go.  My take on the people who keep a dry quarantine tank is that they may not want the extra work of keeping this tank cycled with adding bottled ammonia every day as they may need to do so for an indefinite/unknown period of time -- like 6 months, or 9 months or . . .
       
      No, I don't pre-treat new fish for any possible ailment they may be carrying, although adding some salt (about 3 tsp. per gallon on average, depending on the species -- and progressively, as 1 tsp. per day over a 3 day period) certainly can't hurt and can only be a benefit.  The exceptions to this would be Bettas and any scale-less fishes such as Catfish and Mormorids (Elephant-Nose, etc.).  Many fishes can tolerate more salt, but you'd need to find out first if those you're quarantining would be comfortable with more.  At the end of the quarantine period, the salt must be reduced just as gradually as when it was added, by first making a 1/3 PWC the first day, then a 50% PWC the 2nd day and finally a 75% PWC on the 3rd day -- if adding 3 total teaspoons of salt at the beginning.  Much less salt than this and it really doesn't do much good against any diseases that would ordinarily be effected by salt.  Keep in mind though, that when using enough salt to affect disease bacteria, it may affect the nitrogen-fixing bacteria similarly.  Keep in mind too, that there are many pathogens which wouldn't be affected only by salt, although it would help with those issues that are -- but possibly at the expense of affecting the cycle too.
       
      Ray
              
       
      In a message dated 2/6/2015 8:11:39 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Morning Ray

      I am setting up a quarantine tank with its own separate set of of equipment, net water changing hoses and what not.

      Back when I was raising  Koi I was a stickler for quarantining  new fish but got lax with the indoor fish, never again.


      I always had a 500 gallon tank going for new koi or ones the need some extra care.

      I've read on a Cichlid forum or two the people don't keep hospital / quarantine tanks going, they keep them dry until right before they need them, which seems counterproductive to me. I have mine cycling right now with a ammonia cycle going. Am I think wrong?


      Do you do any prophylactic treatment to new fish. I read using salt is best and not using salt is the best way. As usual on the internet there is only one way to do something but its 25 completely different ways .


      Thanks Harry


      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56593 From: Harry Leverett Date: 2/6/2015
      Subject: Re: Quarantine Tank
      Thats what I was thinking Ray. I think I'll leave it running and keep it cycled in case I need it in a hurry. I have it set up away from the other tanks and I'll monitor its progress.

      Thanks again Ray
      ( added another email to my note book ; )
      Harry


      On Friday, February 6, 2015 9:59 AM, "sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


       
      Hi Harry,
       
      I can't be positive as I don't know these hobbyists' intentions who keep their quarantine tanks dry up until the time they need them.  But as those tanks wouldn't be cycled, I feel that your keeping the tank cycled is the best way to go.  My take on the people who keep a dry quarantine tank is that they may not want the extra work of keeping this tank cycled with adding bottled ammonia every day as they may need to do so for an indefinite/unknown period of time -- like 6 months, or 9 months or . . .
       
      No, I don't pre-treat new fish for any possible ailment they may be carrying, although adding some salt (about 3 tsp. per gallon on average, depending on the species -- and progressively, as 1 tsp. per day over a 3 day period) certainly can't hurt and can only be a benefit.  The exceptions to this would be Bettas and any scale-less fishes such as Catfish and Mormorids (Elephant-Nose, etc.).  Many fishes can tolerate more salt, but you'd need to find out first if those you're quarantining would be comfortable with more.  At the end of the quarantine period, the salt must be reduced just as gradually as when it was added, by first making a 1/3 PWC the first day, then a 50% PWC the 2nd day and finally a 75% PWC on the 3rd day -- if adding 3 total teaspoons of salt at the beginning.  Much less salt than this and it really doesn't do much good against any diseases that would ordinarily be effected by salt.  Keep in mind though, that when using enough salt to affect disease bacteria, it may affect the nitrogen-fixing bacteria similarly.  Keep in mind too, that there are many pathogens which wouldn't be affected only by salt, although it would help with those issues that are -- but possibly at the expense of affecting the cycle too.
       
      Ray
              
       
      In a message dated 2/6/2015 8:11:39 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       
      Morning Ray
      I am setting up a quarantine tank with its own separate set of of equipment, net water changing hoses and what not.
      Back when I was raising  Koi I was a stickler for quarantining  new fish but got lax with the indoor fish, never again.

      I always had a 500 gallon tank going for new koi or ones the need some extra care.
      I've read on a Cichlid forum or two the people don't keep hospital / quarantine tanks going, they keep them dry until right before they need them, which seems counterproductive to me. I have mine cycling right now with a ammonia cycle going. Am I think wrong?

      Do you do any prophylactic treatment to new fish. I read using salt is best and not using salt is the best way. As usual on the internet there is only one way to do something but its 25 completely different ways .

      Thanks Harry



      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56594 From: harryleverett60 Date: 2/6/2015
      Subject: Rock work

      I will probably start the rock work for the cichlid tank next. I bought a selection of small rocks to start with.

      I bought 2 bags of sand but it was so dirty I was afraid to use it so I've got "Cichlid sand" coming.


      I've seen people use the plastic deflector grate used in recessed light fixtures in the bottom of the tank to protect the glass and distribute the weight. Is this advisable or is it unnecessary ? Seems if Cichlids like to dig that wouldn't be a good idea.

      Never have done any rock work other then a couple of rocks in a tank because I liked the looks of them.


      Thanks for any help

      Harry


      P.S. ,

       Thanks for the help on the quarantine tank Donna

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56595 From: Donna Ransome Date: 2/6/2015
      Subject: Re: Rock work
      I have the plastic deflector grate but the engineers assure me it’s not necessary. Put the rocks on the glass though and substrate 2nd so fish cannot dig underneath.



      Rocks from head-size to fist-size are good for mbuna.



      I keep Malawi, Tanganyikans and Victorians. Which Africans will you keep as rock requirements differ?



      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: Friday, February 6, 2015 11:30 AM
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [AquaticLife] Rock work





      I will probably start the rock work for the cichlid tank next. I bought a selection of small rocks to start with.

      I bought 2 bags of sand but it was so dirty I was afraid to use it so I've got "Cichlid sand" coming.



      I've seen people use the plastic deflector grate used in recessed light fixtures in the bottom of the tank to protect the glass and distribute the weight. Is this advisable or is it unnecessary ? Seems if Cichlids like to dig that wouldn't be a good idea.

      Never have done any rock work other then a couple of rocks in a tank because I liked the looks of them.



      Thanks for any help

      Harry



      P.S. ,

      Thanks for the help on the quarantine tank Donna





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56596 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 2/6/2015
      Subject: Re: 29 gallon
      Hi Andy,

        I noticed that the water test readings you posted yesterday gave zero for NO3 & the same today. If you have living creatures in a tank then there will always be some NO3 reading because it is organic waste. Could it be that you are using an out of date test kit & are you leaving it 10 minutes before reading the results?

      They also need a good shake before use. Once you have added 10 drops of bottle 1 then give bottle 2 a good shake for half a minute before adding 10 drops to the tube. Then give the tube a good shake for a minute or more & then let it stand for 10 minutes. Before reading it give it another shake.

        John<o)))<

      On 6 February 2015 at 14:35, andy_peltier@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      I did a 50% water change yesterday morning and put a Penn-Plax 700 on the 29 and today the water is crystal clear and the test run ammonia 0ppm nitrite 0ppm nitrate 0ppm and the 20 long has finaly cycled and the readings on test are the same.I have a Sunsun 302 coming for the 20 long.I use the API master test kit.I will keep you posted and thanks for the addvise all.

      Andy


      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56597 From: Harry Leverett Date: 2/6/2015
      Subject: Re: Rock work
      Hi Donna

      We're stuck between Mbuna and Peacocks. Seems the Peacocks are less aggressive but take longer to color. Soooo. I'm open for suggestions. I really don't want problem children.
      What kind of stocking ratio for a 55 gal 4' tank

      Thanks again
      Harry

      Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID


      "Donna Ransome djransome@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      I have the plastic deflector grate but the engineers assure me it’s not necessary. Put the rocks on the glass though and substrate 2nd so fish cannot dig underneath.

      Rocks from head-size to fist-size are good for mbuna.

      I keep Malawi, Tanganyikans and Victorians. Which Africans will you keep as rock requirements differ?

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: Friday, February 6, 2015 11:30 AM
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [AquaticLife] Rock work

      I will probably start the rock work for the cichlid tank next. I bought a selection of small rocks to start with.

      I bought 2 bags of sand but it was so dirty I was afraid to use it so I've got "Cichlid sand" coming.

      I've seen people use the plastic deflector grate used in recessed light fixtures in the bottom of the tank to protect the glass and distribute the weight. Is this advisable or is it unnecessary ? Seems if Cichlids like to dig that wouldn't be a good idea.

      Never have done any rock work other then a couple of rocks in a tank because I liked the looks of them.

      Thanks for any help

      Harry

      P.S. ,

      Thanks for the help on the quarantine tank Donna

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56598 From: Donna Ransome Date: 2/6/2015
      Subject: Re: Rock work
      You need to decide before doing the rocks…mbuna like more than peacocks.



      You also need to decide if you are doing mixed genders. With peacocks that means a single species tank with only the males colored (like 3). With mbuna you can have all colorful fish if you choose monomorphic species.



      I think the mixed-gender mbuna tank would be easy enough if you choose easy-going species.



      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: Friday, February 6, 2015 1:16 PM
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Rock work





      Hi Donna



      We're stuck between Mbuna and Peacocks. Seems the Peacocks are less aggressive but take longer to color. Soooo. I'm open for suggestions. I really don't want problem children.

      What kind of stocking ratio for a 55 gal 4' tank



      Thanks again

      Harry



      Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID



      "Donna Ransome djransome@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:



      I have the plastic deflector grate but the engineers assure me it’s not necessary. Put the rocks on the glass though and substrate 2nd so fish cannot dig underneath.

      Rocks from head-size to fist-size are good for mbuna.

      I keep Malawi, Tanganyikans and Victorians. Which Africans will you keep as rock requirements differ?

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: Friday, February 6, 2015 11:30 AM
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [AquaticLife] Rock work

      I will probably start the rock work for the cichlid tank next. I bought a selection of small rocks to start with.

      I bought 2 bags of sand but it was so dirty I was afraid to use it so I've got "Cichlid sand" coming.

      I've seen people use the plastic deflector grate used in recessed light fixtures in the bottom of the tank to protect the glass and distribute the weight. Is this advisable or is it unnecessary ? Seems if Cichlids like to dig that wouldn't be a good idea.

      Never have done any rock work other then a couple of rocks in a tank because I liked the looks of them.

      Thanks for any help

      Harry

      P.S. ,

      Thanks for the help on the quarantine tank Donna

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56599 From: Harry Leverett Date: 2/6/2015
      Subject: Re: Rock work
      I do like the Mbuna and more then likely that's the way I'll go.

      Harry

      Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID


      "Donna Ransome djransome@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      You need to decide before doing the rocks…mbuna like more than peacocks.

      You also need to decide if you are doing mixed genders. With peacocks that means a single species tank with only the males colored (like 3). With mbuna you can have all colorful fish if you choose monomorphic species.

      I think the mixed-gender mbuna tank would be easy enough if you choose easy-going species.

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: Friday, February 6, 2015 1:16 PM
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Rock work

      Hi Donna

      We're stuck between Mbuna and Peacocks. Seems the Peacocks are less aggressive but take longer to color. Soooo. I'm open for suggestions. I really don't want problem children.

      What kind of stocking ratio for a 55 gal 4' tank

      Thanks again

      Harry

      Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID

      "Donna Ransome djransome@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

      I have the plastic deflector grate but the engineers assure me it’s not necessary. Put the rocks on the glass though and substrate 2nd so fish cannot dig underneath.

      Rocks from head-size to fist-size are good for mbuna.

      I keep Malawi, Tanganyikans and Victorians. Which Africans will you keep as rock requirements differ?

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: Friday, February 6, 2015 11:30 AM
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [AquaticLife] Rock work

      I will probably start the rock work for the cichlid tank next. I bought a selection of small rocks to start with.

      I bought 2 bags of sand but it was so dirty I was afraid to use it so I've got "Cichlid sand" coming.

      I've seen people use the plastic deflector grate used in recessed light fixtures in the bottom of the tank to protect the glass and distribute the weight. Is this advisable or is it unnecessary ? Seems if Cichlids like to dig that wouldn't be a good idea.

      Never have done any rock work other then a couple of rocks in a tank because I liked the looks of them.

      Thanks for any help

      Harry

      P.S. ,

      Thanks for the help on the quarantine tank Donna

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56600 From: andy_peltier Date: 2/6/2015
      Subject: Re: 29 gallon
      Hey John My test kit says 2019 and I did another test like you said and got the same test the color matches the chart I know when my tanks were cycling the color was all over the place but now not. Do I need to buy another test kit and try it?

      Andy.
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56601 From: Donna Ransome Date: 2/6/2015
      Subject: Re: Rock work
      Think in terms of three species with 1m:4f of each in a 55G. Yellow labs are a great species.



      Are you ordering online or buying from an LFS?



      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: Friday, February 6, 2015 2:04 PM
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Rock work





      I do like the Mbuna and more then likely that's the way I'll go.



      Harry



      Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID



      "Donna Ransome djransome@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:



      You need to decide before doing the rocks…mbuna like more than peacocks.

      You also need to decide if you are doing mixed genders. With peacocks that means a single species tank with only the males colored (like 3). With mbuna you can have all colorful fish if you choose monomorphic species.

      I think the mixed-gender mbuna tank would be easy enough if you choose easy-going species.

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: Friday, February 6, 2015 1:16 PM
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Rock work

      Hi Donna

      We're stuck between Mbuna and Peacocks. Seems the Peacocks are less aggressive but take longer to color. Soooo. I'm open for suggestions. I really don't want problem children.

      What kind of stocking ratio for a 55 gal 4' tank

      Thanks again

      Harry

      Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID

      "Donna Ransome djransome@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

      I have the plastic deflector grate but the engineers assure me it’s not necessary. Put the rocks on the glass though and substrate 2nd so fish cannot dig underneath.

      Rocks from head-size to fist-size are good for mbuna.

      I keep Malawi, Tanganyikans and Victorians. Which Africans will you keep as rock requirements differ?

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: Friday, February 6, 2015 11:30 AM
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [AquaticLife] Rock work

      I will probably start the rock work for the cichlid tank next. I bought a selection of small rocks to start with.

      I bought 2 bags of sand but it was so dirty I was afraid to use it so I've got "Cichlid sand" coming.

      I've seen people use the plastic deflector grate used in recessed light fixtures in the bottom of the tank to protect the glass and distribute the weight. Is this advisable or is it unnecessary ? Seems if Cichlids like to dig that wouldn't be a good idea.

      Never have done any rock work other then a couple of rocks in a tank because I liked the looks of them.

      Thanks for any help

      Harry

      P.S. ,

      Thanks for the help on the quarantine tank Donna

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56602 From: Harry Leverett Date: 2/6/2015
      Subject: Re: Rock work
      I'll most likely order online. Not fond of Petco fish and that's basically the only choice here.
      Harry

      Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID


      "Donna Ransome djransome@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Think in terms of three species with 1m:4f of each in a 55G. Yellow labs are a great species.

      Are you ordering online or buying from an LFS?

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: Friday, February 6, 2015 2:04 PM
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Rock work

      I do like the Mbuna and more then likely that's the way I'll go.

      Harry

      Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID

      "Donna Ransome djransome@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

      You need to decide before doing the rocks…mbuna like more than peacocks.

      You also need to decide if you are doing mixed genders. With peacocks that means a single species tank with only the males colored (like 3). With mbuna you can have all colorful fish if you choose monomorphic species.

      I think the mixed-gender mbuna tank would be easy enough if you choose easy-going species.

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: Friday, February 6, 2015 1:16 PM
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Rock work

      Hi Donna

      We're stuck between Mbuna and Peacocks. Seems the Peacocks are less aggressive but take longer to color. Soooo. I'm open for suggestions. I really don't want problem children.

      What kind of stocking ratio for a 55 gal 4' tank

      Thanks again

      Harry

      Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID

      "Donna Ransome djransome@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

      I have the plastic deflector grate but the engineers assure me it’s not necessary. Put the rocks on the glass though and substrate 2nd so fish cannot dig underneath.

      Rocks from head-size to fist-size are good for mbuna.

      I keep Malawi, Tanganyikans and Victorians. Which Africans will you keep as rock requirements differ?

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: Friday, February 6, 2015 11:30 AM
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [AquaticLife] Rock work

      I will probably start the rock work for the cichlid tank next. I bought a selection of small rocks to start with.

      I bought 2 bags of sand but it was so dirty I was afraid to use it so I've got "Cichlid sand" coming.

      I've seen people use the plastic deflector grate used in recessed light fixtures in the bottom of the tank to protect the glass and distribute the weight. Is this advisable or is it unnecessary ? Seems if Cichlids like to dig that wouldn't be a good idea.

      Never have done any rock work other then a couple of rocks in a tank because I liked the looks of them.

      Thanks for any help

      Harry

      P.S. ,

      Thanks for the help on the quarantine tank Donna

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56603 From: Donna Ransome Date: 2/6/2015
      Subject: Re: Rock work
      I have a source or two to recommend, but not sure if the list rules prohibit vendor recommendations.



      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: Friday, February 6, 2015 2:46 PM
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Rock work





      I'll most likely order online. Not fond of Petco fish and that's basically the only choice here.

      Harry



      Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID



      "Donna Ransome djransome@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:



      Think in terms of three species with 1m:4f of each in a 55G. Yellow labs are a great species.

      Are you ordering online or buying from an LFS?

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: Friday, February 6, 2015 2:04 PM
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Rock work

      I do like the Mbuna and more then likely that's the way I'll go.

      Harry

      Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID

      "Donna Ransome djransome@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

      You need to decide before doing the rocks…mbuna like more than peacocks.

      You also need to decide if you are doing mixed genders. With peacocks that means a single species tank with only the males colored (like 3). With mbuna you can have all colorful fish if you choose monomorphic species.

      I think the mixed-gender mbuna tank would be easy enough if you choose easy-going species.

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: Friday, February 6, 2015 1:16 PM
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Rock work

      Hi Donna

      We're stuck between Mbuna and Peacocks. Seems the Peacocks are less aggressive but take longer to color. Soooo. I'm open for suggestions. I really don't want problem children.

      What kind of stocking ratio for a 55 gal 4' tank

      Thanks again

      Harry

      Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID

      "Donna Ransome djransome@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

      I have the plastic deflector grate but the engineers assure me it’s not necessary. Put the rocks on the glass though and substrate 2nd so fish cannot dig underneath.

      Rocks from head-size to fist-size are good for mbuna.

      I keep Malawi, Tanganyikans and Victorians. Which Africans will you keep as rock requirements differ?

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: Friday, February 6, 2015 11:30 AM
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [AquaticLife] Rock work

      I will probably start the rock work for the cichlid tank next. I bought a selection of small rocks to start with.

      I bought 2 bags of sand but it was so dirty I was afraid to use it so I've got "Cichlid sand" coming.

      I've seen people use the plastic deflector grate used in recessed light fixtures in the bottom of the tank to protect the glass and distribute the weight. Is this advisable or is it unnecessary ? Seems if Cichlids like to dig that wouldn't be a good idea.

      Never have done any rock work other then a couple of rocks in a tank because I liked the looks of them.

      Thanks for any help

      Harry

      P.S. ,

      Thanks for the help on the quarantine tank Donna

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56604 From: sevenspringss Date: 2/6/2015
      Subject: Re: Quarantine Tank
      AOL Email
      Harry,.
       
      The only thing you'll need to be concerned about when keeping a cycled tank with no fish in it is to replace the ammonia every day that the nitrifying bacteria are consuming.  As a quarantine tank usually holds only one fish at a time, you'd only need to maintain the tank cycled at a level of having 2 ppm of ammonia per gallon consumed every day, but on the off-chance that you may need to have several fish in that tank at some point in time, it's better to increase this level to 3 ppm ammonia per gallon being consumed.  Being sure to add 3 or 4 drops of clear ammonia each and every day will assure this, but you can't ever forget to add it and have the ammonia content drop to zero for too long of a time after the following day (after the day you last add the ammonia); there would be at least a partial bacteria die-off due to starvation.  

      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 2/6/2015 11:20:53 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Thats what I was thinking Ray. I think I'll leave it running and keep it cycled in case I need it in a hurry. I have it set up away from the other tanks and I'll monitor its progress.

      Thanks again Ray
      ( added another email to my note book ; )
      Harry


      On Friday, February 6, 2015 9:59 AM, "sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


       
      Hi Harry,
       
      I can't be positive as I don't know these hobbyists' intentions who keep their quarantine tanks dry up until the time they need them.  But as those tanks wouldn't be cycled, I feel that your keeping the tank cycled is the best way to go.  My take on the people who keep a dry quarantine tank is that they may not want the extra work of keeping this tank cycled with adding bottled ammonia every day as they may need to do so for an indefinite/unknown period of time -- like 6 months, or 9 months or . . .
       
      No, I don't pre-treat new fish for any possible ailment they may be carrying, although adding some salt (about 3 tsp. per gallon on average, depending on the species -- and progressively, as 1 tsp. per day over a 3 day period) certainly can't hurt and can only be a benefit.  The exceptions to this would be Bettas and any scale-less fishes such as Catfish and Mormorids (Elephant-Nose, etc.).  Many fishes can tolerate more salt, but you'd need to find out first if those you're quarantining would be comfortable with more.  At the end of the quarantine period, the salt must be reduced just as gradually as when it was added, by first making a 1/3 PWC the first day, then a 50% PWC the 2nd day and finally a 75% PWC on the 3rd day -- if adding 3 total teaspoons of salt at the beginning.  Much less salt than this and it really doesn't do much good against any diseases that would ordinarily be effected by salt.  Keep in mind though, that when using enough salt to affect disease bacteria, it may affect the nitrogen-fixing bacteria similarly.  Keep in mind too, that there are many pathogens which wouldn't be affected only by salt, although it would help with those issues that are -- but possibly at the expense of affecting the cycle too.
       
      Ray
              
       
      In a message dated 2/6/2015 8:11:39 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       
      Morning Ray
      I am setting up a quarantine tank with its own separate set of of equipment, net water changing hoses and what not.
      Back when I was raising  Koi I was a stickler for quarantining  new fish but got lax with the indoor fish, never again.

      I always had a 500 gallon tank going for new koi or ones the need some extra care.
      I've read on a Cichlid forum or two the people don't keep hospital / quarantine tanks going, they keep them dry until right before they need them, which seems counterproductive to me. I have mine cycling right now with a ammonia cycle going. Am I think wrong?

      Do you do any prophylactic treatment to new fish. I read using salt is best and not using salt is the best way. As usual on the internet there is only one way to do something but its 25 completely different ways .

      Thanks Harry



      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56605 From: sevenspringss Date: 2/6/2015
      Subject: Re: Rock work
      AOL Email
      Hi Donna,
       
      I know of no rules prohibiting recommendations for a vendor(s), just like recommending a brand of fish food or a brand of (SeaChem, for example) of medication -- or a certain fish store -- unless the poster of the message has an interest in the vendor (like part ownership in his business). 
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 2/6/2015 4:20:20 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      I have a source or two to recommend, but not sure if the list rules prohibit vendor recommendations.

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: Friday, February 6, 2015 2:46 PM
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Rock work

      I'll most likely order online. Not fond of Petco fish and that's basically the only choice here.

      Harry

      Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID

      "Donna Ransome djransome@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

      Think in terms of three species with 1m:4f of each in a 55G. Yellow labs are a great species.

      Are you ordering online or buying from an LFS?

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: Friday, February 6, 2015 2:04 PM
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Rock work

      I do like the Mbuna and more then likely that's the way I'll go.

      Harry

      Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID

      "Donna Ransome djransome@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

      You need to decide before doing the rocks…mbuna like more than peacocks.

      You also need to decide if you are doing mixed genders. With peacocks that means a single species tank with only the males colored (like 3). With mbuna you can have all colorful fish if you choose monomorphic species.

      I think the mixed-gender mbuna tank would be easy enough if you choose easy-going species.

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: Friday, February 6, 2015 1:16 PM
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Rock work

      Hi Donna

      We're stuck between Mbuna and Peacocks. Seems the Peacocks are less aggressive but take longer to color. Soooo. I'm open for suggestions. I really don't want problem children.

      What kind of stocking ratio for a 55 gal 4' tank

      Thanks again

      Harry

      Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID

      "Donna Ransome djransome@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

      I have the plastic deflector grate but the engineers assure me it’s not necessary. Put the rocks on the glass though and substrate 2nd so fish cannot dig underneath.

      Rocks from head-size to fist-size are good for mbuna.

      I keep Malawi, Tanganyikans and Victorians. Which Africans will you keep as rock requirements differ?

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: Friday, February 6, 2015 11:30 AM
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [AquaticLife] Rock work

      I will probably start the rock work for the cichlid tank next. I bought a selection of small rocks to start with.

      I bought 2 bags of sand but it was so dirty I was afraid to use it so I've got "Cichlid sand" coming.

      I've seen people use the plastic deflector grate used in recessed light fixtures in the bottom of the tank to protect the glass and distribute the weight. Is this advisable or is it unnecessary ? Seems if Cichlids like to dig that wouldn't be a good idea.

      Never have done any rock work other then a couple of rocks in a tank because I liked the looks of them.

      Thanks for any help

      Harry

      P.S. ,

      Thanks for the help on the quarantine tank Donna

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56606 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 2/6/2015
      Subject: Re: 29 gallon
      Hi Andy,

        I don't think you need to get another test kit-2019 is absolutely fine & API are one of the best makes. Also you are doing the test correctly but it is puzzling me though because I would have expected at least some level of NO3 to show up even if it were just 5. Is the colour definately bright yellow or is there some trace of orange no matter how slight?

      Just to recap, how big is your tank, what is your fish stock level, how much water do you change & how often?

        John<o)))<

       

      On 6 February 2015 at 18:53, andy_peltier@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      Hey John My test kit says 2019 and I did another test like you said and got the same test the color matches the chart I know when my tanks were cycling the color was all over the place but now not. Do I need to buy another test kit and try it?

      Andy.


      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56607 From: sevenspringss Date: 2/6/2015
      Subject: Re: Rock work
      AOL Email
      Harry,
       
      Donna has given you some very sound advice, in her numerous replies.  Your choice of a clean sand such as the "Cichlid Sand" already intended for aquarium use is a good way to start.  While I did state that play sand would be appropriate, I believe I also mention to rinse it well to clean it before use.  By "Cichlid Sand" however, I really don't know what's meant by this -- if it's intended for use for any Cichlids (South or Central American, West African or Rift Lake).  Many Rift Lake hobbyist mix in Aragonite (by CaribSea) or crushed coral to help stabilize their pH and hardness to that of their fishes preference.  At the very least, dolomite would be good to consider mixing in with your sand -- unless this "Cichlid Sand" is already bolstered with some form of calcium carbonate especially for Rift Lake Cichlids. 
       
      Donna has already addressed the lighting fixture grate question, which I presume you to mean what we refer to as "EggCrate" material.  Think of the rock's weight this way; while they have some substantial weigh to them, they are displacing an equal volume of water which would have a fair amount of weight to it too, at 8 1/3 pounds per gallon.  Maybe not as much as rocks weigh, but not a whole lot less.  The increase of the rock's weight over what the same volume of water would have weighed if it were still in the tank is not a great amount. 
       
      While rocks can be as big as head size, as Donna indicates, a solid piece of rock that size serves no useful purpose in creating a hiding place for a fish.  The best choices for rocks would be with them already having numerous recesses, or as having shapes that will create recesses when combined with other similarly shaped pieces.  "Texas Holey (having lots of holes) Rock is a good choice for a portion of your needs and I find shale to have a distinct advantage in arranging them with each other in ways to make all kinds of caves and openings.  One thing to keep in mind when using any kind of (aquarium safe) rock in arranging them as caves is to allow for a "back door" opening -- to prevent any fish from getting trapped in a recess by a more aggressive fish.  Slate is generally flat and not having nearly as much bulk (and weight) as large rounded rocks and their uneven shapes allow for building all manners of rock-work.
       
      Ray
             
       
      In a message dated 2/6/2015 11:29:59 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      I will probably start the rock work for the cichlid tank next. I bought a selection of small rocks to start with.

      I bought 2 bags of sand but it was so dirty I was afraid to use it so I've got "Cichlid sand" coming.


      I've seen people use the plastic deflector grate used in recessed light fixtures in the bottom of the tank to protect the glass and distribute the weight. Is this advisable or is it unnecessary ? Seems if Cichlids like to dig that wouldn't be a good idea.

      Never have done any rock work other then a couple of rocks in a tank because I liked the looks of them.


      Thanks for any help

      Harry


      P.S. ,

       Thanks for the help on the quarantine tank Donna

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56608 From: Harry Leverett Date: 2/6/2015
      Subject: Re: Rock work
      Hey Ray
      Caribsea sand is what I bought. I tried two different play sand brands that I could find here, both ended up being what I call 60/40 or fill sand. Lots of red clay. I remember buying play sand before that was nice white sand. I did however like the price of the play sand much better lol. I have seen the crushed coral at Petco and will pick up a bag or two.

      Today I bought a few small rocks and will add to my collection in a day or two. The small pet shop near the house does have a large box of holey rock  and some slate so I'll pick so up , they're not much on fish meds but have plenty of rock lol.

      Thanks again Ray and Donna for the great answers.

      Harry

      Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID


      "sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Harry,
       
      Donna has given you some very sound advice, in her numerous replies.  Your choice of a clean sand such as the "Cichlid Sand" already intended for aquarium use is a good way to start.  While I did state that play sand would be appropriate, I believe I also mention to rinse it well to clean it before use.  By "Cichlid Sand" however, I really don't know what's meant by this -- if it's intended for use for any Cichlids (South or Central American, West African or Rift Lake).  Many Rift Lake hobbyist mix in Aragonite (by CaribSea) or crushed coral to help stabilize their pH and hardness to that of their fishes preference.  At the very least, dolomite would be good to consider mixing in with your sand -- unless this "Cichlid Sand" is already bolstered with some form of calcium carbonate especially for Rift Lake Cichlids. 
       
      Donna has already addressed the lighting fixture grate question, which I presume you to mean what we refer to as "EggCrate" material.  Think of the rock's weight this way; while they have some substantial weigh to them, they are displacing an equal volume of water which would have a fair amount of weight to it too, at 8 1/3 pounds per gallon.  Maybe not as much as rocks weigh, but not a whole lot less.  The increase of the rock's weight over what the same volume of water would have weighed if it were still in the tank is not a great amount. 
       
      While rocks can be as big as head size, as Donna indicates, a solid piece of rock that size serves no useful purpose in creating a hiding place for a fish.  The best choices for rocks would be with them already having numerous recesses, or as having shapes that will create recesses when combined with other similarly shaped pieces.  "Texas Holey (having lots of holes) Rock is a good choice for a portion of your needs and I find shale to have a distinct advantage in arranging them with each other in ways to make all kinds of caves and openings.  One thing to keep in mind when using any kind of (aquarium safe) rock in arranging them as caves is to allow for a "back door" opening -- to prevent any fish from getting trapped in a recess by a more aggressive fish.  Slate is generally flat and not having nearly as much bulk (and weight) as large rounded rocks and their uneven shapes allow for building all manners of rock-work.
       
      Ray
             
       
      In a message dated 2/6/2015 11:29:59 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      I will probably start the rock work for the cichlid tank next. I bought a selection of small rocks to start with.

      I bought 2 bags of sand but it was so dirty I was afraid to use it so I've got "Cichlid sand" coming.


      I've seen people use the plastic deflector grate used in recessed light fixtures in the bottom of the tank to protect the glass and distribute the weight. Is this advisable or is it unnecessary ? Seems if Cichlids like to dig that wouldn't be a good idea.

      Never have done any rock work other then a couple of rocks in a tank because I liked the looks of them.


      Thanks for any help

      Harry


      P.S. ,

       Thanks for the help on the quarantine tank Donna

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56609 From: sevenspringss Date: 2/6/2015
      Subject: Re: Rock work
      AOL Email
      Harry,
       
      While the different amounts of rock work for Peacocks vs Mbuna has already been explained to you, with Peacocks needing much less rock work, they still need a fair amount of either hiding places or sight-interrupters to break up the lines of sight in the aquarium, so that the females can choose to be out of sight of the males when they feel the need.  Unless esthetics are a prime requisite, you might try using short (7", as an example) sections of 3" diameter PVC as "caves, covered with sand adhered to the piping with silicone sealant if preferred.  They can be strewn around the bottom, but as fish stressed by more aggressive ones often seek "shelter" in the upper corners of a tank (instead of diving for any caves), a few of these PVC shelters suspended from the tanks rim, half-way submerged, can offer some handy refuges.
       
      Some to keep in mind, with Peacocks, only the males color up (and you need many more males than females).  Then too, many species of Mbuna have only the males coloring up with the females essentially being shades of gray/silver.  More about these (Mbunas) in a subsequent reply.  
       
      While I notice in more recent posts, that you've seemed to have made a choice, something else to keep in mind is that Mbuna an Peacocks (Aulonocara and Trematocranus) are not the only choices you have.  The very similar (to Peacocks) are the many colorful species of Utaka ( Protomelas, Placidochromis, Copadochromis) a group which includes the very nice looking "Electric Blue" S. Fryeri.  The "Red Empress" (Protomelas taeniolatus) is especially nice too.  Then, there is the Chisawasawa group, which includes the very different looking "Blue Dolphin" (Cyrtocara moori), with both sexes colored blue and the male having a distinctive hump on his head.  This group also includes the Chilotilapia species.  So you see, you have many other -- more peaceful -- species to choose from.
       
      Ray
          
       
      In a message dated 2/6/2015 1:17:07 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hi Donna

      We're stuck between Mbuna and Peacocks. Seems the Peacocks are less aggressive but take longer to color. Soooo. I'm open for suggestions. I really don't want problem children.
      What kind of stocking ratio for a 55 gal 4' tank

      Thanks again
      Harry

      Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID


      "Donna Ransome djransome@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      I have the plastic deflector grate but the engineers assure me it’s not necessary. Put the rocks on the glass though and substrate 2nd so fish cannot dig underneath.

      Rocks from head-size to fist-size are good for mbuna.

      I keep Malawi, Tanganyikans and Victorians. Which Africans will you keep as rock requirements differ?

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: Friday, February 6, 2015 11:30 AM
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [AquaticLife] Rock work

      I will probably start the rock work for the cichlid tank next. I bought a selection of small rocks to start with.

      I bought 2 bags of sand but it was so dirty I was afraid to use it so I've got "Cichlid sand" coming.

      I've seen people use the plastic deflector grate used in recessed light fixtures in the bottom of the tank to protect the glass and distribute the weight. Is this advisable or is it unnecessary ? Seems if Cichlids like to dig that wouldn't be a good idea.

      Never have done any rock work other then a couple of rocks in a tank because I liked the looks of them.

      Thanks for any help

      Harry

      P.S. ,

      Thanks for the help on the quarantine tank Donna

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56610 From: Terri Ferrier Date: 2/6/2015
      Subject: Re: Rock work

      If someone will approve my photo, I’ve posted a pic of my 75 gal African cichlid tank with a large sandstone slate formation in it.  It’s in the album titled Terri's Cichlid Tank Rock Formation.  With rocks going for $2 a lb at the fish stores, I went to a local brick and tile place that sells to building contractors.  Got all this natural sandstone for 20 cents a pound.  If a piece is too large or not quite the right shape, it’s very easy to break or chip off till it’s the right size.  Sometimes it will split off in thinner layers that work great in small tanks.

       

      Terri

       


      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: Friday, February 06, 2015 10:30 AM
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [AquaticLife] Rock work

       




      I will probably start the rock work for the cichlid tank next. I bought a selection of small rocks to start with.

      I bought 2 bags of sand but it was so dirty I was afraid to use it so I've got "Cichlid sand" coming.

       

      I've seen people use the plastic deflector grate used in recessed light fixtures in the bottom of the tank to protect the glass and distribute the weight. Is this advisable or is it unnecessary ? Seems if Cichlids like to dig that wouldn't be a good idea.

      Never have done any rock work other then a couple of rocks in a tank because I liked the looks of them.



      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56611 From: sevenspringss Date: 2/6/2015
      Subject: Re: Rock work
      AOL Email
      Harry,
       
      The Mbuna are a very good choice, even though you have many other species to choose from (besides just the Peacocks).  As you don't want "problem children," you need to choose your Mbuna carefully for the level of aggression you'd prefer.  Mbuna can range from as mild as Peacocks and Utaka, etc., to extremely aggressive and if you don't know the behavior of the specific fish you like the looks of, you may get yourself into more problems than you planned on.  
       
      While, as I said, many Mbuna species' females are non-descript in the color department, but there are still quite a few species in which both the males and the females have color -- some of them being sexually dimorphic.  If you have any certain species in mind and you'd like opinions on them, feel free to ask.  You may also consider getting a book illustrating many of them.  If you'd like more suggestions, we could do that too.  The Yellow Labs which Donna mentioned are a good choice for color and a comparatively low level of aggression, although most all Rift Lake Cichlids are inherently aggressive to some degree.  
       
      I believe what Donna is suggesting here (below) with keeping Mbuna having all of them being colorful by choosing monomorphic species is not suggesting that you buy only males of a given species, but similar to what I just said, in that there are a number of species in which the males and the females are both colored (the same color).  Then to, in some locations (certain collecting location in the lake), the Red Zebra (Metriaclima [Maylandia] estherae) males are blue with the females are red -- and this isn't the only Mbuna to display two different colors on their different sexes.
       
      While you could aso buy just males of several different species to have only colorful fish, almost invariably and unless you know the aggression level of each species you choose, you'll wind up having one species as being more aggressive than any of the rest, and as the dominant male usually is the only fish to display it's best colors, most of the other fishes will not show themselves in the colors they're known to possess.
       
      Ray
       
                
       
      In a message dated 2/6/2015 2:04:18 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      I do like the Mbuna and more then likely that's the way I'll go.

      Harry

      Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID


      "Donna Ransome djransome@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      You need to decide before doing the rocks…mbuna like more than peacocks.

      You also need to decide if you are doing mixed genders. With peacocks that means a single species tank with only the males colored (like 3). With mbuna you can have all colorful fish if you choose monomorphic species.

      I think the mixed-gender mbuna tank would be easy enough if you choose easy-going species.

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: Friday, February 6, 2015 1:16 PM
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Rock work

      Hi Donna

      We're stuck between Mbuna and Peacocks. Seems the Peacocks are less aggressive but take longer to color. Soooo. I'm open for suggestions. I really don't want problem children.

      What kind of stocking ratio for a 55 gal 4' tank

      Thanks again

      Harry

      Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID

      "Donna Ransome djransome@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

      I have the plastic deflector grate but the engineers assure me it’s not necessary. Put the rocks on the glass though and substrate 2nd so fish cannot dig underneath.

      Rocks from head-size to fist-size are good for mbuna.

      I keep Malawi, Tanganyikans and Victorians. Which Africans will you keep as rock requirements differ?

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: Friday, February 6, 2015 11:30 AM
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [AquaticLife] Rock work

      I will probably start the rock work for the cichlid tank next. I bought a selection of small rocks to start with.

      I bought 2 bags of sand but it was so dirty I was afraid to use it so I've got "Cichlid sand" coming.

      I've seen people use the plastic deflector grate used in recessed light fixtures in the bottom of the tank to protect the glass and distribute the weight. Is this advisable or is it unnecessary ? Seems if Cichlids like to dig that wouldn't be a good idea.

      Never have done any rock work other then a couple of rocks in a tank because I liked the looks of them.

      Thanks for any help

      Harry

      P.S. ,

      Thanks for the help on the quarantine tank Donna

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56612 From: Harry Leverett Date: 2/6/2015
      Subject: Re: Rock work
      I can see I have way more studying to do. I hadn't heard of the Utaka group. That's a great idea with the pvc pipe . I have an abundance of 3" pipe pieces and some fittings and covering them with sand sounds like a perfect fix.

      I have 1 word Ray..... Book! ; )
      Harry

      Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID


      "sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Harry,
       
      While the different amounts of rock work for Peacocks vs Mbuna has already been explained to you, with Peacocks needing much less rock work, they still need a fair amount of either hiding places or sight-interrupters to break up the lines of sight in the aquarium, so that the females can choose to be out of sight of the males when they feel the need.  Unless esthetics are a prime requisite, you might try using short (7", as an example) sections of 3" diameter PVC as "caves, covered with sand adhered to the piping with silicone sealant if preferred.  They can be strewn around the bottom, but as fish stressed by more aggressive ones often seek "shelter" in the upper corners of a tank (instead of diving for any caves), a few of these PVC shelters suspended from the tanks rim, half-way submerged, can offer some handy refuges.
       
      Some to keep in mind, with Peacocks, only the males color up (and you need many more males than females).  Then too, many species of Mbuna have only the males coloring up with the females essentially being shades of gray/silver.  More about these (Mbunas) in a subsequent reply.  
       
      While I notice in more recent posts, that you've seemed to have made a choice, something else to keep in mind is that Mbuna an Peacocks (Aulonocara and Trematocranus) are not the only choices you have.  The very similar (to Peacocks) are the many colorful species of Utaka ( Protomelas, Placidochromis, Copadochromis) a group which includes the very nice looking "Electric Blue" S. Fryeri.  The "Red Empress" (Protomelas taeniolatus) is especially nice too.  Then, there is the Chisawasawa group, which includes the very different looking "Blue Dolphin" (Cyrtocara moori), with both sexes colored blue and the male having a distinctive hump on his head.  This group also includes the Chilotilapia species.  So you see, you have many other -- more peaceful -- species to choose from.
       
      Ray
          
       
      In a message dated 2/6/2015 1:17:07 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hi Donna

      We're stuck between Mbuna and Peacocks. Seems the Peacocks are less aggressive but take longer to color. Soooo. I'm open for suggestions. I really don't want problem children.
      What kind of stocking ratio for a 55 gal 4' tank

      Thanks again
      Harry

      Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID


      "Donna Ransome djransome@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      I have the plastic deflector grate but the engineers assure me it’s not necessary. Put the rocks on the glass though and substrate 2nd so fish cannot dig underneath.

      Rocks from head-size to fist-size are good for mbuna.

      I keep Malawi, Tanganyikans and Victorians. Which Africans will you keep as rock requirements differ?

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: Friday, February 6, 2015 11:30 AM
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [AquaticLife] Rock work

      I will probably start the rock work for the cichlid tank next. I bought a selection of small rocks to start with.

      I bought 2 bags of sand but it was so dirty I was afraid to use it so I've got "Cichlid sand" coming.

      I've seen people use the plastic deflector grate used in recessed light fixtures in the bottom of the tank to protect the glass and distribute the weight. Is this advisable or is it unnecessary ? Seems if Cichlids like to dig that wouldn't be a good idea.

      Never have done any rock work other then a couple of rocks in a tank because I liked the looks of them.

      Thanks for any help

      Harry

      P.S. ,

      Thanks for the help on the quarantine tank Donna

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56613 From: sevenspringss Date: 2/6/2015
      Subject: Re: 29 gallon
      AOL Email
      Hi John . . . and Andy,
       
      You reiterated exactly the same thing as I already stated to Andy, which I'm fairly sure you're already aware of, and which I do not mind in the least if this stresses home the importance of this point.  In case you missed Andy's maintenance description though, he changes 5 gallons of water twice a week. 
       
      As the main point of making PWC's (Partial Water Changes) is to remove the Nitrate (NO3) that's building up all the time from nitrogenous fish waste constantly being produced all the time, if the nitrate level were at zero there would be no need to make PWC's.  If we were to maintain the nitrate constantly at zero, we would need to make 100% water changes each time to eliminate all the nitrate that's constantly being produced ---- UNLESS, there is no nitrite being converted into Nitrate, but then there would be a Nitrite level in existence (which there isn't in this case).
       
      It does appear to be a puzzle as the process of fish metabolism produces Ammonia which is always broken down into Nitrate as the end product.  We don't change water to reduce the Ammonia or the Nitrite levels since we rely on the ammonia and nitrite-converting bacteria to eliminate it, but it's all broken down into Nitrate which can never be completely removed with incomplete (partial) water changes.  Just as you estimate, I too maintain that there's usually in the vicinity of approximately 5 ppm Nitrate at any given time -- in a fully stocked tank of fishes producing a maximum amount of organic waste for this size tank -- which two 1/6 PWC's per week do not compute to remove.  Most often when a zero Nitrate level is seen, it means that there's no longer a nitrogen cycle taking place, but then an elevation in the Ammonia is observed if that's not being converted by the nitrogen-fixing (oxidizing) bacteria, which isn't happening here.  A test kit dated 2019 should be perfectly accurate; especially an API kit, so I don't know where the anomaly is.  
       
      Ray       
       
       
       
      In a message dated 2/6/2015 5:55:06 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hi Andy,

        I don't think you need to get another test kit-2019 is absolutely fine & API are one of the best makes. Also you are doing the test correctly but it is puzzling me though because I would have expected at least some level of NO3 to show up even if it were just 5. Is the colour definately bright yellow or is there some trace of orange no matter how slight?

      Just to recap, how big is your tank, what is your fish stock level, how much water do you change & how often?

        John<o)))<

       

      On 6 February 2015 at 18:53, andy_peltier@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      Hey John My test kit says 2019 and I did another test like you said and got the same test the color matches the chart I know when my tanks were cycling the color was all over the place but now not. Do I need to buy another test kit and try it?

      Andy.


      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56614 From: Harry Leverett Date: 2/6/2015
      Subject: Re: Rock work
      $2 a pound is exactly what I paid today. I believe I be visiting the brick and stone company. ; )
      Thanks for the tip, I never thought about that.

      Harry

      Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID


      "'Terri Ferrier' terriferrier@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      If someone will approve my photo, I’ve posted a pic of my 75 gal African cichlid tank with a large sandstone slate formation in it.  It’s in the album titled Terri's Cichlid Tank Rock Formation.  With rocks going for $2 a lb at the fish stores, I went to a local brick and tile place that sells to building contractors.  Got all this natural sandstone for 20 cents a pound.  If a piece is too large or not quite the right shape, it’s very easy to break or chip off till it’s the right size.  Sometimes it will split off in thinner layers that work great in small tanks.

       

      Terri

       


      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: Friday, February 06, 2015 10:30 AM
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [AquaticLife] Rock work

       




      I will probably start the rock work for the cichlid tank next. I bought a selection of small rocks to start with.

      I bought 2 bags of sand but it was so dirty I was afraid to use it so I've got "Cichlid sand" coming.

       

      I've seen people use the plastic deflector grate used in recessed light fixtures in the bottom of the tank to protect the glass and distribute the weight. Is this advisable or is it unnecessary ? Seems if Cichlids like to dig that wouldn't be a good idea.

      Never have done any rock work other then a couple of rocks in a tank because I liked the looks of them.



      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56615 From: deenerzz Date: 2/6/2015
      Subject: Re: Rock work
      Stone and Landscape places are a great place to get bowl rock!
      Bring a tape measure. I got so excited over all the cool shapes that I forgot the opening sizes of my tanks. Some pieces would not fit and I had to break em down  with a hammer to fit.
       
       
      Mike


      -----Original Message-----
      From: Harry Leverett harryleverett60@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
      To: AquaticLife <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Fri, Feb 6, 2015 5:27 pm
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Rock work

       
      $2 a pound is exactly what I paid today. I believe I be visiting the brick and stone company. ; )
      Thanks for the tip, I never thought about that.

      Harry

      Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID


      "'Terri Ferrier' terriferrier@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       
      If someone will approve my photo, I’ve posted a pic of my 75 gal African cichlid tank with a large sandstone slate formation in it.  It’s in the album titled Terri's Cichlid Tank Rock Formation.  With rocks going for $2 a lb at the fish stores, I went to a local brick and tile place that sells to building contractors.  Got all this natural sandstone for 20 cents a pound.  If a piece is too large or not quite the right shape, it’s very easy to break or chip off till it’s the right size.  Sometimes it will split off in thinner layers that work great in small tanks.
       
      Terri
       

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: Friday, February 06, 2015 10:30 AM
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [AquaticLife] Rock work
       



      I will probably start the rock work for the cichlid tank next. I bought a selection of small rocks to start with.
      I bought 2 bags of sand but it was so dirty I was afraid to use it so I've got "Cichlid sand" coming.
       
      I've seen people use the plastic deflector grate used in recessed light fixtures in the bottom of the tank to protect the glass and distribute the weight. Is this advisable or is it unnecessary ? Seems if Cichlids like to dig that wouldn't be a good idea.
      Never have done any rock work other then a couple of rocks in a tank because I liked the looks of them.


      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56616 From: sevenspringss Date: 2/7/2015
      Subject: Re: Rock work
      AOL Email
      Harry,
       
      There are many different composition of sandstone, many of them being much more easily disintegrated when resubmerged in the aquarium in short time than most other rock.  While the price is right, depending on what makes up a particular type of sandstone, it may start crumbling apart in a matter of months -- and I'm not just taking this from research -- I'm taking this from personal experience having tried using it many years ago. 
       
      A stone retailer would still be the place to go, but with buying much harder rock in mind to purchase for long-term aquarium use.  Again, look for red (and./or green shale) as being fish-safe, for one of your choices.  Bluestone is another rock that's aquarium-safe, although much of that is sold as cut stone, not having a natural form any longer (it's often used for patio stones, trimmed flat top & bottom).  Quartz is another non-toxic rock to look for, safe to use with fish and often found in fish stores.  While there are rocks that may contain limestone and that ordinarily are not recommended for the average aquarium because of their water-hardening properties, this is not an issue in a Rift Lake tank.      
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 2/6/2015 8:27:37 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      $2 a pound is exactly what I paid today. I believe I be visiting the brick and stone company. ; )
      Thanks for the tip, I never thought about that.

      Harry

      Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID


      "'Terri Ferrier' terriferrier@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      If someone will approve my photo, I’ve posted a pic of my 75 gal African cichlid tank with a large sandstone slate formation in it.  It’s in the album titled Terri's Cichlid Tank Rock Formation.  With rocks going for $2 a lb at the fish stores, I went to a local brick and tile place that sells to building contractors.  Got all this natural sandstone for 20 cents a pound.  If a piece is too large or not quite the right shape, it’s very easy to break or chip off till it’s the right size.  Sometimes it will split off in thinner layers that work great in small tanks.

      Terri


      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: Friday, February 06, 2015 10:30 AM
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [AquaticLife] Rock work




      I will probably start the rock work for the cichlid tank next. I bought a selection of small rocks to start with.

      I bought 2 bags of sand but it was so dirty I was afraid to use it so I've got "Cichlid sand" coming.

      I've seen people use the plastic deflector grate used in recessed light fixtures in the bottom of the tank to protect the glass and distribute the weight. Is this advisable or is it unnecessary ? Seems if Cichlids like to dig that wouldn't be a good idea.

      Never have done any rock work other then a couple of rocks in a tank because I liked the looks of them.



      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56617 From: sevenspringss Date: 2/7/2015
      Subject: Re: Rock work
      AOL Email
      Hi Harry,
       
      In reading your message here concerning your LFS and some of the rock they carry, at the prices these stores charge for rock I'm reminded of other sources of their availability.  If there are any local fish clubs near you, check them out to see if they hold any annual or semi-annual fish auction events.  They're open to the public although you may need to pay a small fee for your bidder card.  These events aren't just limited to livestock, but quite often you'll see such offerings as the Texas Holey Rock previously mentioned.  I've see a good number of these types of rocks (in all sizes) auctioned off at the various clubs' events around here.  Auction prices are usually much lower than what you'd pay in a store.  Just something else to keep in mind. 
       
      BTW ---- annual club fish auctions are another excellent source for quality Malawi Cichlids.  They're tank raised by dedicated Rift Lake aquarists.  The prices are often only half (or LESS) of what you'd pay elsewhere, there's no transportation involved and if you stay until the very end of these auctions, one can invariably wind up paying only $1 or $2 for a bag of fish as comparatively few attendees remain and there's virtually no competition left in bidding.  Of course, while what's left towards the very end are still high-quality fish, there's not a wide selection.  
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 2/6/2015 6:44:19 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hey Ray
      Caribsea sand is what I bought. I tried two different play sand brands that I could find here, both ended up being what I call 60/40 or fill sand. Lots of red clay. I remember buying play sand before that was nice white sand. I did however like the price of the play sand much better lol. I have seen the crushed coral at Petco and will pick up a bag or two.

      Today I bought a few small rocks and will add to my collection in a day or two. The small pet shop near the house does have a large box of holey rock  and some slate so I'll pick so up , they're not much on fish meds but have plenty of rock lol.

      Thanks again Ray and Donna for the great answers.

      Harry

      Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID


      "sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Harry,
       
      Donna has given you some very sound advice, in her numerous replies.  Your choice of a clean sand such as the "Cichlid Sand" already intended for aquarium use is a good way to start.  While I did state that play sand would be appropriate, I believe I also mention to rinse it well to clean it before use.  By "Cichlid Sand" however, I really don't know what's meant by this -- if it's intended for use for any Cichlids (South or Central American, West African or Rift Lake).  Many Rift Lake hobbyist mix in Aragonite (by CaribSea) or crushed coral to help stabilize their pH and hardness to that of their fishes preference.  At the very least, dolomite would be good to consider mixing in with your sand -- unless this "Cichlid Sand" is already bolstered with some form of calcium carbonate especially for Rift Lake Cichlids. 
       
      Donna has already addressed the lighting fixture grate question, which I presume you to mean what we refer to as "EggCrate" material.  Think of the rock's weight this way; while they have some substantial weigh to them, they are displacing an equal volume of water which would have a fair amount of weight to it too, at 8 1/3 pounds per gallon.  Maybe not as much as rocks weigh, but not a whole lot less.  The increase of the rock's weight over what the same volume of water would have weighed if it were still in the tank is not a great amount. 
       
      While rocks can be as big as head size, as Donna indicates, a solid piece of rock that size serves no useful purpose in creating a hiding place for a fish.  The best choices for rocks would be with them already having numerous recesses, or as having shapes that will create recesses when combined with other similarly shaped pieces.  "Texas Holey (having lots of holes) Rock is a good choice for a portion of your needs and I find shale to have a distinct advantage in arranging them with each other in ways to make all kinds of caves and openings.  One thing to keep in mind when using any kind of (aquarium safe) rock in arranging them as caves is to allow for a "back door" opening -- to prevent any fish from getting trapped in a recess by a more aggressive fish.  Slate is generally flat and not having nearly as much bulk (and weight) as large rounded rocks and their uneven shapes allow for building all manners of rock-work.
       
      Ray
             
       
      In a message dated 2/6/2015 11:29:59 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      I will probably start the rock work for the cichlid tank next. I bought a selection of small rocks to start with.

      I bought 2 bags of sand but it was so dirty I was afraid to use it so I've got "Cichlid sand" coming.


      I've seen people use the plastic deflector grate used in recessed light fixtures in the bottom of the tank to protect the glass and distribute the weight. Is this advisable or is it unnecessary ? Seems if Cichlids like to dig that wouldn't be a good idea.

      Never have done any rock work other then a couple of rocks in a tank because I liked the looks of them.


      Thanks for any help

      Harry


      P.S. ,

       Thanks for the help on the quarantine tank Donna

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56618 From: Donna Ransome Date: 2/7/2015
      Subject: Re: Rock work
      Utaka (a.k.a. Haplochromines or Haps in the hobby) share some characteristics with peacocks. Only the male is colorful and you want one male with many females. Be careful for a 55G to choose only fish that mature at or under 6”. There are some haps that fit that criteria although many are larger and you might want a 75G or even a 72” tank for them.



      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: Friday, February 6, 2015 7:52 PM
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Rock work





      I can see I have way more studying to do. I hadn't heard of the Utaka group. That's a great idea with the pvc pipe . I have an abundance of 3" pipe pieces and some fittings and covering them with sand sounds like a perfect fix.



      I have 1 word Ray..... Book! ; )

      Harry



      Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID



      "sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:




      Harry,



      While the different amounts of rock work for Peacocks vs Mbuna has already been explained to you, with Peacocks needing much less rock work, they still need a fair amount of either hiding places or sight-interrupters to break up the lines of sight in the aquarium, so that the females can choose to be out of sight of the males when they feel the need. Unless esthetics are a prime requisite, you might try using short (7", as an example) sections of 3" diameter PVC as "caves, covered with sand adhered to the piping with silicone sealant if preferred. They can be strewn around the bottom, but as fish stressed by more aggressive ones often seek "shelter" in the upper corners of a tank (instead of diving for any caves), a few of these PVC shelters suspended from the tanks rim, half-way submerged, can offer some handy refuges.



      Some to keep in mind, with Peacocks, only the males color up (and you need many more males than females). Then too, many species of Mbuna have only the males coloring up with the females essentially being shades of gray/silver. More about these (Mbunas) in a subsequent reply.



      While I notice in more recent posts, that you've seemed to have made a choice, something else to keep in mind is that Mbuna an Peacocks (Aulonocara and Trematocranus) are not the only choices you have. The very similar (to Peacocks) are the many colorful species of Utaka ( Protomelas, Placidochromis, Copadochromis) a group which includes the very nice looking "Electric Blue" S. Fryeri. The "Red Empress" (Protomelas taeniolatus) is especially nice too. Then, there is the Chisawasawa group, which includes the very different looking "Blue Dolphin" (Cyrtocara moori), with both sexes colored blue and the male having a distinctive hump on his head. This group also includes the Chilotilapia species. So you see, you have many other -- more peaceful -- species to choose from.



      Ray





      In a message dated 2/6/2015 1:17:07 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:



      Hi Donna



      We're stuck between Mbuna and Peacocks. Seems the Peacocks are less aggressive but take longer to color. Soooo. I'm open for suggestions. I really don't want problem children.

      What kind of stocking ratio for a 55 gal 4' tank



      Thanks again

      Harry



      Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID



      "Donna Ransome djransome@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:



      I have the plastic deflector grate but the engineers assure me it’s not necessary. Put the rocks on the glass though and substrate 2nd so fish cannot dig underneath.

      Rocks from head-size to fist-size are good for mbuna.

      I keep Malawi, Tanganyikans and Victorians. Which Africans will you keep as rock requirements differ?

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: Friday, February 6, 2015 11:30 AM
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [AquaticLife] Rock work

      I will probably start the rock work for the cichlid tank next. I bought a selection of small rocks to start with.

      I bought 2 bags of sand but it was so dirty I was afraid to use it so I've got "Cichlid sand" coming.

      I've seen people use the plastic deflector grate used in recessed light fixtures in the bottom of the tank to protect the glass and distribute the weight. Is this advisable or is it unnecessary ? Seems if Cichlids like to dig that wouldn't be a good idea.

      Never have done any rock work other then a couple of rocks in a tank because I liked the looks of them.

      Thanks for any help

      Harry

      P.S. ,

      Thanks for the help on the quarantine tank Donna

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56619 From: harryleverett60 Date: 2/9/2015
      Subject: Flagstone ?

      I found some pretty good looking flagstone a Lowes. Works easily and I can knock of the sharp edges with a hand grinder pretty well.  

      Is that a good rock for the cichlid tank after a good wash and brushing ?


      Harry


      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56620 From: sevenspringss Date: 2/9/2015
      Subject: Re: Flagstone ?
      AOL Email
      Harry,
       
      That should be perfectly fine, but as "flagstone" is just a generic name for flat paving stones for walkways and patios, etc., it could be of slate, bluestone, quartz or even sandstone (or anything else).  Flagstone isn't a particular kind of stone.  Generally, but to make this short if it's colored dark bluish grey it's bluestone, if it's a lighter grey it's slate, if it's pinkish it's quartz and if it's made up of many tiny slightly differently colored granules it's sandstone.  They're all safe, but I've already told the issue with sandstone(s).  My guess is that they're large pieces which you'll need to break up into smaller sections, since they're coming from a home and yard maintenance store. 
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 2/9/2015 11:28:07 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      I found some pretty good looking flagstone a Lowes. Works easily and I can knock of the sharp edges with a hand grinder pretty well.  

      Is that a good rock for the cichlid tank after a good wash and brushing ?


      Harry


      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56621 From: Harry Leverett Date: 2/9/2015
      Subject: Re: Flagstone ?
      Never know there were so many types.
      This is pinkish and tan. I was going to hit it good with my pressure washer to see if it eroded easily,  but
      As normal the pressure washer isn't pressuring lol. Time for a new one .

      Thanks Ray
      Harry
      Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID


      "sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Harry,
       
      That should be perfectly fine, but as "flagstone" is just a generic name for flat paving stones for walkways and patios, etc., it could be of slate, bluestone, quartz or even sandstone (or anything else).  Flagstone isn't a particular kind of stone.  Generally, but to make this short if it's colored dark bluish grey it's bluestone, if it's a lighter grey it's slate, if it's pinkish it's quartz and if it's made up of many tiny slightly differently colored granules it's sandstone.  They're all safe, but I've already told the issue with sandstone(s).  My guess is that they're large pieces which you'll need to break up into smaller sections, since they're coming from a home and yard maintenance store. 
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 2/9/2015 11:28:07 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      I found some pretty good looking flagstone a Lowes. Works easily and I can knock of the sharp edges with a hand grinder pretty well.  

      Is that a good rock for the cichlid tank after a good wash and brushing ?


      Harry


      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56622 From: David Davis Date: 2/9/2015
      Subject: Re: Flagstone ?
      Please remove me from your group.

      I am strictly interested in saltwater fish, coral and aquariums.

      Your group is more into fresh water fish.

      Thank you anyway for allowing me into your group.

      My very best, Dave

      David Davis
      gooddad23@...


      -----Original Message-----
      From: sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
      To: AquaticLife <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Mon, Feb 9, 2015 10:05 am
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Flagstone ?

       
      Harry,
       
      That should be perfectly fine, but as "flagstone" is just a generic name for flat paving stones for walkways and patios, etc., it could be of slate, bluestone, quartz or even sandstone (or anything else).  Flagstone isn't a particular kind of stone.  Generally, but to make this short if it's colored dark bluish grey it's bluestone, if it's a lighter grey it's slate, if it's pinkish it's quartz and if it's made up of many tiny slightly differently colored granules it's sandstone.  They're all safe, but I've already told the issue with sandstone(s).  My guess is that they're large pieces which you'll need to break up into smaller sections, since they're coming from a home and yard maintenance store. 
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 2/9/2015 11:28:07 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       
      I found some pretty good looking flagstone a Lowes. Works easily and I can knock of the sharp edges with a hand grinder pretty well.  
      Is that a good rock for the cichlid tank after a good wash and brushing ?

      Harry

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56623 From: sevenspringss Date: 2/9/2015
      Subject: Re: Flagstone ?
      AOL Email
      David,
       
      Sorry we didn't hold an interest for you.  You may remove yourself simply by scrolling down to the very bottom of you message and clicking on "Unsubsribe" on the bottom right.  Thanks for giving us a try.
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 2/9/2015 2:12:48 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Please remove me from your group.


      I am strictly interested in saltwater fish, coral and aquariums.

      Your group is more into fresh water fish.

      Thank you anyway for allowing me into your group.

      My very best, Dave

      David Davis
      gooddad23@...


      -----Original Message-----
      From: sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
      To: AquaticLife <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Mon, Feb 9, 2015 10:05 am
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Flagstone ?

       
      Harry,
      That should be perfectly fine, but as "flagstone" is just a generic name for flat paving stones for walkways and patios, etc., it could be of slate, bluestone, quartz or even sandstone (or anything else).  Flagstone isn't a particular kind of stone.  Generally, but to make this short if it's colored dark bluish grey it's bluestone, if it's a lighter grey it's slate, if it's pinkish it's quartz and if it's made up of many tiny slightly differently colored granules it's sandstone.  They're all safe, but I've already told the issue with sandstone(s).  My guess is that they're large pieces which you'll need to break up into smaller sections, since they're coming from a home and yard maintenance store. 
      Ray
      In a message dated 2/9/2015 11:28:07 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       
      I found some pretty good looking flagstone a Lowes. Works easily and I can knock of the sharp edges with a hand grinder pretty well.  
      Is that a good rock for the cichlid tank after a good wash and brushing ?

      Harry

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56624 From: sevenspringss Date: 2/9/2015
      Subject: Re: Flagstone ?
      AOL Email
      Harry,
       
      From your description, this sounds like quartz; should be quite safe, if it appears more or less as a solid color -- and with that color, it should be quite decorative. 
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 2/9/2015 1:48:00 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Never know there were so many types.
      This is pinkish and tan. I was going to hit it good with my pressure washer to see if it eroded easily,  but
      As normal the pressure washer isn't pressuring lol. Time for a new one .

      Thanks Ray
      Harry
      Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID


      "sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Harry,
       
      That should be perfectly fine, but as "flagstone" is just a generic name for flat paving stones for walkways and patios, etc., it could be of slate, bluestone, quartz or even sandstone (or anything else).  Flagstone isn't a particular kind of stone.  Generally, but to make this short if it's colored dark bluish grey it's bluestone, if it's a lighter grey it's slate, if it's pinkish it's quartz and if it's made up of many tiny slightly differently colored granules it's sandstone.  They're all safe, but I've already told the issue with sandstone(s).  My guess is that they're large pieces which you'll need to break up into smaller sections, since they're coming from a home and yard maintenance store. 
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 2/9/2015 11:28:07 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      I found some pretty good looking flagstone a Lowes. Works easily and I can knock of the sharp edges with a hand grinder pretty well.  

      Is that a good rock for the cichlid tank after a good wash and brushing ?


      Harry


      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56625 From: Harry Leverett Date: 2/9/2015
      Subject: Re: Flagstone ?
      Hi Ray
      That sounds great. I did a little stone work today just playing around with it. I like it .
      Thanks again Ray
      Harry

      Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID


      "sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Harry,
       
      From your description, this sounds like quartz; should be quite safe, if it appears more or less as a solid color -- and with that color, it should be quite decorative. 
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 2/9/2015 1:48:00 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Never know there were so many types.
      This is pinkish and tan. I was going to hit it good with my pressure washer to see if it eroded easily,  but
      As normal the pressure washer isn't pressuring lol. Time for a new one .

      Thanks Ray
      Harry
      Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID


      "sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Harry,
       
      That should be perfectly fine, but as "flagstone" is just a generic name for flat paving stones for walkways and patios, etc., it could be of slate, bluestone, quartz or even sandstone (or anything else).  Flagstone isn't a particular kind of stone.  Generally, but to make this short if it's colored dark bluish grey it's bluestone, if it's a lighter grey it's slate, if it's pinkish it's quartz and if it's made up of many tiny slightly differently colored granules it's sandstone.  They're all safe, but I've already told the issue with sandstone(s).  My guess is that they're large pieces which you'll need to break up into smaller sections, since they're coming from a home and yard maintenance store. 
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 2/9/2015 11:28:07 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      I found some pretty good looking flagstone a Lowes. Works easily and I can knock of the sharp edges with a hand grinder pretty well.  

      Is that a good rock for the cichlid tank after a good wash and brushing ?


      Harry


      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56626 From: andy_peltier Date: 2/10/2015
      Subject: Re: 29 gallon
      Hey guys sorry I have been sick and feeling better now. Ok I did another test and got some younger eyes in the house 3 sets and the nitrate color is slightly off the 0 but no where near the 5.0 color. I did a change in the fish as I left the tiger barbs in the 29 and moved the 2 cory cats and bolivian rams in with 3 skirt tetras in one of my 20 long tanks It also has a aqua clear 30 and 50 on it. I put a couple live plants in it to and more to come. I got a aqua clear 50 and cascade 700 running on the 29. I may go and get the green killing machine so if it happens again I'll be ready.


      Andy
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56627 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 2/11/2015
      Subject: Re: 29 gallon
      Hi Andy,

        Glad to hear you are feeling better now. That NO3 result is good-obviously the water changes are working well & diluting the organic waste. Is it still looking good?

        John<o)))<

      On 10 February 2015 at 19:26, andy_peltier@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      Hey guys sorry I have been sick and feeling better now. Ok I did another test and got some younger eyes in the house 3 sets and the nitrate color is slightly off the 0 but no where near the 5.0 color. I did a change in the fish as I left the tiger barbs in the 29 and moved the 2 cory cats and bolivian rams in with 3 skirt tetras in one of my 20 long tanks It also has a aqua clear 30 and 50 on it. I put a couple live plants in it to and more to come. I got a aqua clear 50 and cascade 700 running on the 29. I may go and get the green killing machine so if it happens again I'll be ready.


      Andy


      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56628 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 2/11/2015
      Subject: Balloon Molly Pregnant
      My Dalmation Balloon Molly has kind of pudged out a bit and is also exhibiting some "different" behavior. I've read that a pregnant balloon Molly will develop a more squared off underside so I'm putting a pic in my folder Lately she's been hanging out directly on top of the heater. It is horizontally positioned in the center of the tank(55 gal) and she is all but sitting on it A LOT and she's also gotten somewhat nippy to the young Angels.
      I don't know if she's pregnant or may have bloat or dropsy... Maybe nothing but s good eater but considering HOW MUCH she's pudged out I feel that something is up.
      If you have experience with the balloon mollies could you take a look please and see what you think?
      Thanks,
      Peg
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56629 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 2/15/2015
      Subject: Re: Balloon Molly Pregnant
      Hi Peg,

        I don't see any replies to your email so I've bumped it back up in case it was missed.

        John<o)))<

      On 12 February 2015 at 03:06, Peg Yruegas peg@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      My Dalmation Balloon Molly has kind of pudged out a bit and is also exhibiting some "different" behavior. I've read that a pregnant balloon Molly will develop a more squared off underside so I'm putting a pic in my folder Lately she's been hanging out directly on top of the heater. It is horizontally positioned in the center of the tank(55 gal) and she is all but sitting on it A LOT and she's also gotten somewhat nippy to the young Angels.
      I don't know if she's pregnant or may have bloat or dropsy... Maybe nothing but s good eater but considering HOW MUCH she's pudged out I feel that something is up.
      If you have experience with the balloon mollies could you take a look please and see what you think?
      Thanks,
      Peg


      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56630 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 2/15/2015
      Subject: Re: Balloon Molly Pregnant
      Thanks John. I've been trying to upload a pic of her but it seems to fail every time. 

      Sent from my iPhone

      On Feb 15, 2015, at 10:39 AM, SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Hi Peg,

        I don't see any replies to your email so I've bumped it back up in case it was missed.

        John<o)))<

      On 12 February 2015 at 03:06, Peg Yruegas peg@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      My Dalmation Balloon Molly has kind of pudged out a bit and is also exhibiting some "different" behavior. I've read that a pregnant balloon Molly will develop a more squared off underside so I'm putting a pic in my folder Lately she's been hanging out directly on top of the heater. It is horizontally positioned in the center of the tank(55 gal) and she is all but sitting on it A LOT and she's also gotten somewhat nippy to the young Angels.
      I don't know if she's pregnant or may have bloat or dropsy... Maybe nothing but s good eater but considering HOW MUCH she's pudged out I feel that something is up.
      If you have experience with the balloon mollies could you take a look please and see what you think?
      Thanks,
      Peg


      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56631 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 2/15/2015
      Subject: Pregnant Molly?
      This is the Molly I'm questioning about. Trying to figure out if she's pregnant. She has started nipping at other fish and basically lives just hovering over the heater. Her size has tripled since she came here.




      ----------








      Sent from my iPhone


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56632 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 2/15/2015
      Subject: Re: Balloon Molly Pregnant
      Thanks John! I finally got a pic yo upload. For some reason I was having difficulty but I finally figured it out.

      Sent from my iPad

      On Feb 15, 2015, at 10:39 AM, SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Hi Peg,

        I don't see any replies to your email so I've bumped it back up in case it was missed.

        John<o)))<

      On 12 February 2015 at 03:06, Peg Yruegas peg@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      My Dalmation Balloon Molly has kind of pudged out a bit and is also exhibiting some "different" behavior. I've read that a pregnant balloon Molly will develop a more squared off underside so I'm putting a pic in my folder Lately she's been hanging out directly on top of the heater. It is horizontally positioned in the center of the tank(55 gal) and she is all but sitting on it A LOT and she's also gotten somewhat nippy to the young Angels.
      I don't know if she's pregnant or may have bloat or dropsy... Maybe nothing but s good eater but considering HOW MUCH she's pudged out I feel that something is up.
      If you have experience with the balloon mollies could you take a look please and see what you think?
      Thanks,
      Peg


      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56633 From: harryleverett60 Date: 3/1/2015
      Subject: CaribSea Cichlid sand

      I have to give CaribSea's Cichlid sand a thumbs up. I added the base flagstone to the tank and  put 3 bags of the Cichlid sand in  bringing the thickness up to 1 1/2 - 2" and then added the rest of the flagstone on top of the base rocks. 

       I dechlorinated the water before adding it to the tank to protect the supposed bacteria in the sand. I added ammonia to bring the ppm up to 2 and low and behold in about 2 !/2 weeks the tank cycled. I went an extra 4 days bringing the ppm up to 2 and letting cycle to 0 , about 24 hrs every time. Changed 50% of the water Friday morning and added 4 yellow labs ( who are doing very well ) Friday evening .


      The bare bottom hospital with 2 hydro sponge filters which i started cycling a week before the big tank with just ammonia , is just now showing signs of producing a small level of nitrate.


      What would be good tank mates for the yellow labs ?


      Thanks for all the help Ray and Donna I really do appreciate all the help


      Harry 


      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56634 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 3/1/2015
      Subject: Re: CaribSea Cichlid sand
      Well done Harry-sounds like a text-book tank set up, glad it went so well for you. When I set mine up it all went perfectly until the end when I just could not get rid of that last trace of NO2 for ages.

        John<o)))<

      On 1 March 2015 at 20:39, harryleverett60@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      I have to give CaribSea's Cichlid sand a thumbs up. I added the base flagstone to the tank and  put 3 bags of the Cichlid sand in  bringing the thickness up to 1 1/2 - 2" and then added the rest of the flagstone on top of the base rocks. 

       I dechlorinated the water before adding it to the tank to protect the supposed bacteria in the sand. I added ammonia to bring the ppm up to 2 and low and behold in about 2 !/2 weeks the tank cycled. I went an extra 4 days bringing the ppm up to 2 and letting cycle to 0 , about 24 hrs every time. Changed 50% of the water Friday morning and added 4 yellow labs ( who are doing very well ) Friday evening .


      The bare bottom hospital with 2 hydro sponge filters which i started cycling a week before the big tank with just ammonia , is just now showing signs of producing a small level of nitrate.


      What would be good tank mates for the yellow labs ?


      Thanks for all the help Ray and Donna I really do appreciate all the help


      Harry 



      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56635 From: Harry Leverett Date: 3/1/2015
      Subject: Re: CaribSea Cichlid sand
      Hey John, It went very well , I was very surprised. 
      Harry
      On Mar 1, 2015, at 4:14 PM, SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


      Well done Harry-sounds like a text-book tank set up, glad it went so well for you. When I set mine up it all went perfectly until the end when I just could not get rid of that last trace of NO2 for ages.

        John<o)))<

      On 1 March 2015 at 20:39, harryleverett60@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      I have to give CaribSea's Cichlid sand a thumbs up. I added the base flagstone to the tank and  put 3 bags of the Cichlid sand in  bringing the thickness up to 1 1/2 - 2" and then added the rest of the flagstone on top of the base rocks. 

       I dechlorinated the water before adding it to the tank to protect the supposed bacteria in the sand. I added ammonia to bring the ppm up to 2 and low and behold in about 2 !/2 weeks the tank cycled. I went an extra 4 days bringing the ppm up to 2 and letting cycle to 0 , about 24 hrs every time. Changed 50% of the water Friday morning and added 4 yellow labs ( who are doing very well ) Friday evening .


      The bare bottom hospital with 2 hydro sponge filters which i started cycling a week before the big tank with just ammonia , is just now showing signs of producing a small level of nitrate.


      What would be good tank mates for the yellow labs ?


      Thanks for all the help Ray and Donna I really do appreciate all the help


      Harry 






      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56636 From: Donna Ransome Date: 3/1/2015
      Subject: Re: CaribSea Cichlid sand
      What are the dimensions of the tank again? 48” x 12”? Do you know the genders of the labs?



      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: Sunday, March 1, 2015 3:39 PM
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [AquaticLife] CaribSea Cichlid sand





      I have to give CaribSea's Cichlid sand a thumbs up. I added the base flagstone to the tank and put 3 bags of the Cichlid sand in bringing the thickness up to 1 1/2 - 2" and then added the rest of the flagstone on top of the base rocks.

      I dechlorinated the water before adding it to the tank to protect the supposed bacteria in the sand. I added ammonia to bring the ppm up to 2 and low and behold in about 2 !/2 weeks the tank cycled. I went an extra 4 days bringing the ppm up to 2 and letting cycle to 0 , about 24 hrs every time. Changed 50% of the water Friday morning and added 4 yellow labs ( who are doing very well ) Friday evening .



      The bare bottom hospital with 2 hydro sponge filters which i started cycling a week before the big tank with just ammonia , is just now showing signs of producing a small level of nitrate.



      What would be good tank mates for the yellow labs ?



      Thanks for all the help Ray and Donna I really do appreciate all the help



      Harry







      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56637 From: Harry Leverett Date: 3/1/2015
      Subject: Re: CaribSea Cichlid sand
      Hi Donna.
      The tank is 48 x 12 x 21.
      I don't have a clue of the sex of the labs they are about an 1" to 1 1/4", pretty small. Two do hang out together the other two just roam.
      Harry

      Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID


      "Donna Ransome djransome@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      What are the dimensions of the tank again? 48” x 12”? Do you know the genders of the labs?

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: Sunday, March 1, 2015 3:39 PM
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [AquaticLife] CaribSea Cichlid sand

      I have to give CaribSea's Cichlid sand a thumbs up. I added the base flagstone to the tank and put 3 bags of the Cichlid sand in bringing the thickness up to 1 1/2 - 2" and then added the rest of the flagstone on top of the base rocks.

      I dechlorinated the water before adding it to the tank to protect the supposed bacteria in the sand. I added ammonia to bring the ppm up to 2 and low and behold in about 2 !/2 weeks the tank cycled. I went an extra 4 days bringing the ppm up to 2 and letting cycle to 0 , about 24 hrs every time. Changed 50% of the water Friday morning and added 4 yellow labs ( who are doing very well ) Friday evening .

      The bare bottom hospital with 2 hydro sponge filters which i started cycling a week before the big tank with just ammonia , is just now showing signs of producing a small level of nitrate.

      What would be good tank mates for the yellow labs ?

      Thanks for all the help Ray and Donna I really do appreciate all the help

      Harry

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56638 From: Donna Ransome Date: 3/1/2015
      Subject: Re: CaribSea Cichlid sand
      OK so you want to end up with 3 species and 1m:4f of each. So I would buy 4 more unsexed juvenile labs so you get about a 50% chance of getting 4 females. Then rehome extra males as they mature.



      For your second species you probably want something blue. I like Cynotilapia sp. Hara with blue barred males and solid blue females. You could also consider Pseudotropheus socolofi or Metriaclima callainos.



      My favorite online source is www.davesfish.com <http://www.davesfish.com> .



      Actually there is an albino version of the socolofi and then you could do both the white socolofi and the blue callainos or hara to finish off your tank.



      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: Sunday, March 1, 2015 7:44 PM
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] CaribSea Cichlid sand





      Hi Donna.

      The tank is 48 x 12 x 21.

      I don't have a clue of the sex of the labs they are about an 1" to 1 1/4", pretty small. Two do hang out together the other two just roam.

      Harry



      Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID



      "Donna Ransome djransome@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:



      What are the dimensions of the tank again? 48” x 12”? Do you know the genders of the labs?

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: Sunday, March 1, 2015 3:39 PM
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [AquaticLife] CaribSea Cichlid sand

      I have to give CaribSea's Cichlid sand a thumbs up. I added the base flagstone to the tank and put 3 bags of the Cichlid sand in bringing the thickness up to 1 1/2 - 2" and then added the rest of the flagstone on top of the base rocks.

      I dechlorinated the water before adding it to the tank to protect the supposed bacteria in the sand. I added ammonia to bring the ppm up to 2 and low and behold in about 2 !/2 weeks the tank cycled. I went an extra 4 days bringing the ppm up to 2 and letting cycle to 0 , about 24 hrs every time. Changed 50% of the water Friday morning and added 4 yellow labs ( who are doing very well ) Friday evening .

      The bare bottom hospital with 2 hydro sponge filters which i started cycling a week before the big tank with just ammonia , is just now showing signs of producing a small level of nitrate.

      What would be good tank mates for the yellow labs ?

      Thanks for all the help Ray and Donna I really do appreciate all the help

      Harry

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56639 From: Harry Leverett Date: 3/1/2015
      Subject: Re: CaribSea Cichlid sand
      Hey, thanks Donna.
      That's sounds great. We'll check out Dave's fish. Going to Houston tomorrow , may hit a couple of fish stores while we're there just for grins.
      Thanks again
      Harry

      Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID


      "Donna Ransome djransome@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      OK so you want to end up with 3 species and 1m:4f of each. So I would buy 4 more unsexed juvenile labs so you get about a 50% chance of getting 4 females. Then rehome extra males as they mature.

      For your second species you probably want something blue. I like Cynotilapia sp. Hara with blue barred males and solid blue females. You could also consider Pseudotropheus socolofi or Metriaclima callainos.

      My favorite online source is www.davesfish.com <http://www.davesfish.com> .

      Actually there is an albino version of the socolofi and then you could do both the white socolofi and the blue callainos or hara to finish off your tank.

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: Sunday, March 1, 2015 7:44 PM
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] CaribSea Cichlid sand

      Hi Donna.

      The tank is 48 x 12 x 21.

      I don't have a clue of the sex of the labs they are about an 1" to 1 1/4", pretty small. Two do hang out together the other two just roam.

      Harry

      Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID

      "Donna Ransome djransome@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

      What are the dimensions of the tank again? 48” x 12”? Do you know the genders of the labs?

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: Sunday, March 1, 2015 3:39 PM
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [AquaticLife] CaribSea Cichlid sand

      I have to give CaribSea's Cichlid sand a thumbs up. I added the base flagstone to the tank and put 3 bags of the Cichlid sand in bringing the thickness up to 1 1/2 - 2" and then added the rest of the flagstone on top of the base rocks.

      I dechlorinated the water before adding it to the tank to protect the supposed bacteria in the sand. I added ammonia to bring the ppm up to 2 and low and behold in about 2 !/2 weeks the tank cycled. I went an extra 4 days bringing the ppm up to 2 and letting cycle to 0 , about 24 hrs every time. Changed 50% of the water Friday morning and added 4 yellow labs ( who are doing very well ) Friday evening .

      The bare bottom hospital with 2 hydro sponge filters which i started cycling a week before the big tank with just ammonia , is just now showing signs of producing a small level of nitrate.

      What would be good tank mates for the yellow labs ?

      Thanks for all the help Ray and Donna I really do appreciate all the help

      Harry

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56640 From: sevenspringss Date: 3/1/2015
      Subject: Re: CaribSea Cichlid sand
      AOL Email
      Harry,
       
      I couldn't offer any better advice than what Donna has already provided.  Well, I could suggest different species perhaps, but there are many to choose from and what's been stated are as good as most that would fit your needs.  You just don't want larger species nor overly aggressive ones.  Any different species would just be a matter of personal choice, not necessarily any better for your purposes.
       
      I'm quite surprised but glad for you that the tank cycled so fast.  Nice work.  BTW, I just now saw you changed 50% of the water (before you added the fish).  Did you retest for nitrate to be sure it's where you want it?
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 3/1/2015 8:28:45 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hey, thanks Donna.
      That's sounds great. We'll check out Dave's fish. Going to Houston tomorrow , may hit a couple of fish stores while we're there just for grins.
      Thanks again
      Harry

      Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID


      "Donna Ransome djransome@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      OK so you want to end up with 3 species and 1m:4f of each. So I would buy 4 more unsexed juvenile labs so you get about a 50% chance of getting 4 females. Then rehome extra males as they mature.

      For your second species you probably want something blue. I like Cynotilapia sp. Hara with blue barred males and solid blue females. You could also consider Pseudotropheus socolofi or Metriaclima callainos.

      My favorite online source is www.davesfish.com <http://www.davesfish.com> .

      Actually there is an albino version of the socolofi and then you could do both the white socolofi and the blue callainos or hara to finish off your tank.

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: Sunday, March 1, 2015 7:44 PM
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] CaribSea Cichlid sand

      Hi Donna.

      The tank is 48 x 12 x 21.

      I don't have a clue of the sex of the labs they are about an 1" to 1 1/4", pretty small. Two do hang out together the other two just roam.

      Harry

      Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID

      "Donna Ransome djransome@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

      What are the dimensions of the tank again? 48” x 12”? Do you know the genders of the labs?

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: Sunday, March 1, 2015 3:39 PM
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [AquaticLife] CaribSea Cichlid sand

      I have to give CaribSea's Cichlid sand a thumbs up. I added the base flagstone to the tank and put 3 bags of the Cichlid sand in bringing the thickness up to 1 1/2 - 2" and then added the rest of the flagstone on top of the base rocks.

      I dechlorinated the water before adding it to the tank to protect the supposed bacteria in the sand. I added ammonia to bring the ppm up to 2 and low and behold in about 2 !/2 weeks the tank cycled. I went an extra 4 days bringing the ppm up to 2 and letting cycle to 0 , about 24 hrs every time. Changed 50% of the water Friday morning and added 4 yellow labs ( who are doing very well ) Friday evening .

      The bare bottom hospital with 2 hydro sponge filters which i started cycling a week before the big tank with just ammonia , is just now showing signs of producing a small level of nitrate.

      What would be good tank mates for the yellow labs ?

      Thanks for all the help Ray and Donna I really do appreciate all the help

      Harry

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56641 From: Harry Leverett Date: 3/2/2015
      Subject: Re: CaribSea Cichlid sand
      Retested the water twice before adding the fish and again every 12 hours or so after adding the fish. This mornings readings are ammonia 0 , nitrite 0 . nitrate between 20 and 40. Will do a water change when I get home this afternoon.
      Harry


      Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID


      "sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Harry,
       
      I couldn't offer any better advice than what Donna has already provided.  Well, I could suggest different species perhaps, but there are many to choose from and what's been stated are as good as most that would fit your needs.  You just don't want larger species nor overly aggressive ones.  Any different species would just be a matter of personal choice, not necessarily any better for your purposes.
       
      I'm quite surprised but glad for you that the tank cycled so fast.  Nice work.  BTW, I just now saw you changed 50% of the water (before you added the fish).  Did you retest for nitrate to be sure it's where you want it?
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 3/1/2015 8:28:45 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hey, thanks Donna.
      That's sounds great. We'll check out Dave's fish. Going to Houston tomorrow , may hit a couple of fish stores while we're there just for grins.
      Thanks again
      Harry

      Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID


      "Donna Ransome djransome@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      OK so you want to end up with 3 species and 1m:4f of each. So I would buy 4 more unsexed juvenile labs so you get about a 50% chance of getting 4 females. Then rehome extra males as they mature.

      For your second species you probably want something blue. I like Cynotilapia sp. Hara with blue barred males and solid blue females. You could also consider Pseudotropheus socolofi or Metriaclima callainos.

      My favorite online source is www.davesfish.com <http://www.davesfish.com> .

      Actually there is an albino version of the socolofi and then you could do both the white socolofi and the blue callainos or hara to finish off your tank.

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: Sunday, March 1, 2015 7:44 PM
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] CaribSea Cichlid sand

      Hi Donna.

      The tank is 48 x 12 x 21.

      I don't have a clue of the sex of the labs they are about an 1" to 1 1/4", pretty small. Two do hang out together the other two just roam.

      Harry

      Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID

      "Donna Ransome djransome@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

      What are the dimensions of the tank again? 48” x 12”? Do you know the genders of the labs?

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: Sunday, March 1, 2015 3:39 PM
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [AquaticLife] CaribSea Cichlid sand

      I have to give CaribSea's Cichlid sand a thumbs up. I added the base flagstone to the tank and put 3 bags of the Cichlid sand in bringing the thickness up to 1 1/2 - 2" and then added the rest of the flagstone on top of the base rocks.

      I dechlorinated the water before adding it to the tank to protect the supposed bacteria in the sand. I added ammonia to bring the ppm up to 2 and low and behold in about 2 !/2 weeks the tank cycled. I went an extra 4 days bringing the ppm up to 2 and letting cycle to 0 , about 24 hrs every time. Changed 50% of the water Friday morning and added 4 yellow labs ( who are doing very well ) Friday evening .

      The bare bottom hospital with 2 hydro sponge filters which i started cycling a week before the big tank with just ammonia , is just now showing signs of producing a small level of nitrate.

      What would be good tank mates for the yellow labs ?

      Thanks for all the help Ray and Donna I really do appreciate all the help

      Harry

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56642 From: sevenspringss Date: 3/2/2015
      Subject: Re: CaribSea Cichlid sand
      AOL Email
      Sounds good!  Best of luck with this set up.
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 3/2/2015 8:54:40 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Retested the water twice before adding the fish and again every 12 hours or so after adding the fish. This mornings readings are ammonia 0 , nitrite 0 . nitrate between 20 and 40. Will do a water change when I get home this afternoon.
      Harry


      Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID


      "sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Harry,
       
      I couldn't offer any better advice than what Donna has already provided.  Well, I could suggest different species perhaps, but there are many to choose from and what's been stated are as good as most that would fit your needs.  You just don't want larger species nor overly aggressive ones.  Any different species would just be a matter of personal choice, not necessarily any better for your purposes.
       
      I'm quite surprised but glad for you that the tank cycled so fast.  Nice work.  BTW, I just now saw you changed 50% of the water (before you added the fish).  Did you retest for nitrate to be sure it's where you want it?
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 3/1/2015 8:28:45 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hey, thanks Donna.
      That's sounds great. We'll check out Dave's fish. Going to Houston tomorrow , may hit a couple of fish stores while we're there just for grins.
      Thanks again
      Harry

      Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID


      "Donna Ransome djransome@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      OK so you want to end up with 3 species and 1m:4f of each. So I would buy 4 more unsexed juvenile labs so you get about a 50% chance of getting 4 females. Then rehome extra males as they mature.

      For your second species you probably want something blue. I like Cynotilapia sp. Hara with blue barred males and solid blue females. You could also consider Pseudotropheus socolofi or Metriaclima callainos.

      My favorite online source is www.davesfish.com <http://www.davesfish.com> .

      Actually there is an albino version of the socolofi and then you could do both the white socolofi and the blue callainos or hara to finish off your tank.

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: Sunday, March 1, 2015 7:44 PM
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] CaribSea Cichlid sand

      Hi Donna.

      The tank is 48 x 12 x 21.

      I don't have a clue of the sex of the labs they are about an 1" to 1 1/4", pretty small. Two do hang out together the other two just roam.

      Harry

      Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID

      "Donna Ransome djransome@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

      What are the dimensions of the tank again? 48” x 12”? Do you know the genders of the labs?

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: Sunday, March 1, 2015 3:39 PM
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [AquaticLife] CaribSea Cichlid sand

      I have to give CaribSea's Cichlid sand a thumbs up. I added the base flagstone to the tank and put 3 bags of the Cichlid sand in bringing the thickness up to 1 1/2 - 2" and then added the rest of the flagstone on top of the base rocks.

      I dechlorinated the water before adding it to the tank to protect the supposed bacteria in the sand. I added ammonia to bring the ppm up to 2 and low and behold in about 2 !/2 weeks the tank cycled. I went an extra 4 days bringing the ppm up to 2 and letting cycle to 0 , about 24 hrs every time. Changed 50% of the water Friday morning and added 4 yellow labs ( who are doing very well ) Friday evening .

      The bare bottom hospital with 2 hydro sponge filters which i started cycling a week before the big tank with just ammonia , is just now showing signs of producing a small level of nitrate.

      What would be good tank mates for the yellow labs ?

      Thanks for all the help Ray and Donna I really do appreciate all the help

      Harry

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56643 From: lgb9999027 Date: 3/27/2015
      Subject: goldfish problem - help needed


      I've been keeping tropical fish for years - and breeding them.  But when I try to set up a goldfish tank, they keep dying.  I've bought expensive fish and feeders - no difference.  Here's what I've done.

      Water is from the same source as the tropical tanks.
      Pet store is 3 miles away on the same aquifer.
      I cycled the tank before adding fish - ammonia and nitrites are zero, nitrates are 5ppm.
      I use AquaSafe+ so any chlorine/chloramine should be neutralized.
      Gh and Kh are 200ppm, which API says in ideal for goldfish.
      Ph is 7.5.
      Temperature is 70F.
      I've swapped out gravel, decorations, filters, and even tried a different tank - no joy.
      Fish usually die within 24-48 hours.  No external signs, no gulping for air, no irritated gills, etc..
      I don't feed the day I bring them home, but start the next morning.
      I'm feeding Omega One goldfish flakes - if they lived longer I'd vary the food.
      The tank is in a room that I'm in 4+ hours a day - hasn't killed me :-).


      HELLLLLP!!

      Larry B


      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56644 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 3/27/2015
      Subject: Re: goldfish problem - help needed
      Hi Larry,

        Welcome to the group. I'm sorry to hear you are having problems keeping your Goldfish alive, what size tanks have you been using, how many fish are together in the tanks  & what filtration do you have?

        John<o)))<

       

      On 27 March 2015 at 17:06, labl02@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       


      I've been keeping tropical fish for years - and breeding them.  But when I try to set up a goldfish tank, they keep dying.  I've bought expensive fish and feeders - no difference.  Here's what I've done.

      Water is from the same source as the tropical tanks.
      Pet store is 3 miles away on the same aquifer.
      I cycled the tank before adding fish - ammonia and nitrites are zero, nitrates are 5ppm.
      I use AquaSafe+ so any chlorine/chloramine should be neutralized.
      Gh and Kh are 200ppm, which API says in ideal for goldfish.
      Ph is 7.5.
      Temperature is 70F.
      I've swapped out gravel, decorations, filters, and even tried a different tank - no joy.
      Fish usually die within 24-48 hours.  No external signs, no gulping for air, no irritated gills, etc..
      I don't feed the day I bring them home, but start the next morning.
      I'm feeding Omega One goldfish flakes - if they lived longer I'd vary the food.
      The tank is in a room that I'm in 4+ hours a day - hasn't killed me :-).


      HELLLLLP!!

      Larry B



      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56645 From: Larry Blanchard Date: 3/27/2015
      Subject: Re: goldfish problem - help needed
      On 03/27/2015 03:06 PM, SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@...
      [AquaticLife] wrote:
      > Hi Larry,
      >
      > Welcome to the group. I'm sorry to hear you are having problems
      > keeping your Goldfish alive, what size tanks have you been using, how
      > many fish are together in the tanks & what filtration do you have?

      I started with a 29 gallon and put 2 small goldfish in it several
      times. When they kept dying I went to a 20 (the only other empty tank I
      had) and continued the 2 small fish routine. I'm using a Aquaclear 30
      HOB filter.

      It also took quite a while to cycle each of the tanks (before adding
      fish). Even bacteria don't seem to like the environment :-).

      I've checked the latest available water quality report from the utility
      and nothing shows up. They didn't even use chlorine until 2014 (a few
      bacterial tests were positive) and even now I can't smell or taste it.
      But my problem started at least a year before that.

      As I write this, my 40 gallon tropical tank in the living room is doing
      great. I'm completely stumped.

      Yes, I'm down to 2 tanks now. At 78, that's enough to take care of :-).

      Larry B

      --
      Where have all the flowers gone? Pete Seeger 1919-2014
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56646 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 3/28/2015
      Subject: Re: goldfish problem - help needed
      I really can't see what you are doing wrong Larry but unfortunately there isn't much traffic on here anymore so second opinions are a bit thin on the ground. I was hoping someone else would jump in & perhaps spot something that I'd missed. Typically you would want at least 20 gallons per fish once they start to put on some size but there is nothing wrong with starting baby fish out in smaller tanks &  then upgrading later.

      You say that none of your Goldfish have lied longer than 48 hours & also that they exhibit no symptoms beforehand. Have you seen any of them die-do you find them on the bottom, stuck to the filter inlet or floating around? What decoration[s] do you use?

        John<o)))<

      On 28 March 2015 at 00:00, Larry Blanchard labl02@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      On 03/27/2015 03:06 PM, SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@...
      [AquaticLife] wrote:
      > Hi Larry,
      >
      > Welcome to the group. I'm sorry to hear you are having problems
      > keeping your Goldfish alive, what size tanks have you been using, how
      > many fish are together in the tanks & what filtration do you have?

      I started with a 29 gallon and put 2 small goldfish in it several
      times. When they kept dying I went to a 20 (the only other empty tank I
      had) and continued the 2 small fish routine. I'm using a Aquaclear 30
      HOB filter.

      It also took quite a while to cycle each of the tanks (before adding
      fish). Even bacteria don't seem to like the environment :-).

      I've checked the latest available water quality report from the utility
      and nothing shows up. They didn't even use chlorine until 2014 (a few
      bacterial tests were positive) and even now I can't smell or taste it.
      But my problem started at least a year before that.

      As I write this, my 40 gallon tropical tank in the living room is doing
      great. I'm completely stumped.

      Yes, I'm down to 2 tanks now. At 78, that's enough to take care of :-).

      Larry B

      --
      Where have all the flowers gone? Pete Seeger 1919-2014


      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56647 From: Larry Blanchard Date: 3/30/2015
      Subject: Re: goldfish problem - help needed
      On 03/28/2015 04:38 PM, SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@...
      [AquaticLife] wrote:
      > You say that none of your Goldfish have lied longer than 48 hours &
      > also that they exhibit no symptoms beforehand. Have you seen any of
      > them die-do you find them on the bottom, stuck to the filter inlet or
      > floating around? What decoration[s] do you use?

      I've found then in all 3 locations. On the bottom seems to be the most
      common, IIRC. The only symptom I can see is that they gradually get
      sluggish.

      I've had the problem with and without decorations. Right now I have a
      rock formation and a couple of plastic plants, all for aquariums.

      But you bring up a good point, My next step is a completely bare tank -
      not even any gravel. If that doesn't work, I'll get some EcoComplete
      and turn it into a plants-only tank :-).

      The only other thing I can think of is that they've all been from the
      same store - PetsMart. But I haven't found any web comments to indicate
      they have a known problem.

      I've also considered the food. But it's Omega One and I've always found
      it and Hikari to be good brands.

      My wife keeps telling me to give up - but I'm stubborn :-).

      Your suggestions and questions are appreciated - thanks.

      Larry B

      --
      Where have all the flowers gone? Pete Seeger 1919-2014
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56648 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 3/30/2015
      Subject: Re: goldfish problem - help needed
      Hi Larry,

        Funnily enough a friend of mine suggested asking you if you got the fish from the same source & if the answer was yes then try somewhere else & I was going to post tot that effect today. Your answer has indicated the fish were indeed all from the same source-PetsMart. Unfortunately the vast majority of these stores don't look after their stock at all well & often have no one instore that has any real knowledge of fishkeeping. There is a similar chain of stores here in the UK called Pets At Home which with a few exceptions is awful although I have to say their aquatic plants are excellent!!

      I would suggest trying a small aquatic only outlet, a generally these stores are owned & run by people who also keep fish as a hobby so you will likely get better advice & the stock will be better quality. There is a great Goldfish site here which tells you everything about getting started: http://goldfishcare101.weebly.com/keeping-goldfishbeginners-guide.html
      I see nothing wrong with your Goldfish keeping regime-in fact you are one step ahead of many people because you cycle the tank first, have another try with some quality fish & see what happens.

        John<o)))<

      On 30 March 2015 at 18:02, Larry Blanchard labl02@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      On 03/28/2015 04:38 PM, SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@...
      [AquaticLife] wrote:
      > You say that none of your Goldfish have lied longer than 48 hours &
      > also that they exhibit no symptoms beforehand. Have you seen any of
      > them die-do you find them on the bottom, stuck to the filter inlet or
      > floating around? What decoration[s] do you use?

      I've found then in all 3 locations. On the bottom seems to be the most
      common, IIRC. The only symptom I can see is that they gradually get
      sluggish.

      I've had the problem with and without decorations. Right now I have a
      rock formation and a couple of plastic plants, all for aquariums.

      But you bring up a good point, My next step is a completely bare tank -
      not even any gravel. If that doesn't work, I'll get some EcoComplete
      and turn it into a plants-only tank :-).

      The only other thing I can think of is that they've all been from the
      same store - PetsMart. But I haven't found any web comments to indicate
      they have a known problem.

      I've also considered the food. But it's Omega One and I've always found
      it and Hikari to be good brands.

      My wife keeps telling me to give up - but I'm stubborn :-).

      Your suggestions and questions are appreciated - thanks.

      Larry B

      --
      Where have all the flowers gone? Pete Seeger 1919-2014


      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56649 From: David Davis Date: 3/31/2015
      Subject: Re: goldfish problem - help needed
      Larry, could you tell us where you live?

      If it is in the Chicago region I could recommend a great place to purchase your fish.

      Their fish are quarantined for 30 days before they sell them.

      I personally have a freshwater 20 gallon tank with 2 nine year old Silver dollars in it and a 46 gallon saltwater live coral and fish tank.

      My best, Dave

      David Davis
      gooddad23@...


      -----Original Message-----
      From: SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
      To: AquaticLife <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Mon, Mar 30, 2015 5:45 pm
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] goldfish problem - help needed

       
      Hi Larry,

        Funnily enough a friend of mine suggested asking you if you got the fish from the same source & if the answer was yes then try somewhere else & I was going to post tot that effect today. Your answer has indicated the fish were indeed all from the same source-PetsMart. Unfortunately the vast majority of these stores don't look after their stock at all well & often have no one instore that has any real knowledge of fishkeeping. There is a similar chain of stores here in the UK called Pets At Home which with a few exceptions is awful although I have to say their aquatic plants are excellent!!

      I would suggest trying a small aquatic only outlet, a generally these stores are owned & run by people who also keep fish as a hobby so you will likely get better advice & the stock will be better quality. There is a great Goldfish site here which tells you everything about getting started: http://goldfishcare101.weebly.com/keeping-goldfishbeginners-guide.html
      I see nothing wrong with your Goldfish keeping regime-in fact you are one step ahead of many people because you cycle the tank first, have another try with some quality fish & see what happens.

        John <o)))<

      On 30 March 2015 at 18:02, Larry Blanchard labl02@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       
      On 03/28/2015 04:38 PM, SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@...
      [AquaticLife] wrote:
      > You say that none of your Goldfish have lied longer than 48 hours &
      > also that they exhibit no symptoms beforehand. Have you seen any of
      > them die-do you find them on the bottom, stuck to the filter inlet or
      > floating around? What decoration[s] do you use?

      I've found then in all 3 locations. On the bottom seems to be the most
      common, IIRC. The only symptom I can see is that they gradually get
      sluggish.

      I've had the problem with and without decorations. Right now I have a
      rock formation and a couple of plastic plants, all for aquariums.

      But you bring up a good point, My next step is a completely bare tank -
      not even any gravel. If that doesn't work, I'll get some EcoComplete
      and turn it into a plants-only tank :-).

      The only other thing I can think of is that they've all been from the
      same store - PetsMart. But I haven't found any web comments to indicate
      they have a known problem.

      I've also considered the food. But it's Omega One and I've always found
      it and Hikari to be good brands.

      My wife keeps telling me to give up - but I'm stubborn :-).

      Your suggestions and questions are appreciated - thanks.

      Larry B

      --
      Where have all the flowers gone? Pete Seeger 1919-2014


      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56650 From: Larry Blanchard Date: 3/31/2015
      Subject: Re: goldfish problem - help needed
      On 03/30/2015 05:45 PM, SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@...
      [AquaticLife] wrote:
      > Funnily enough a friend of mine suggested asking you if you got the
      > fish from the same source & if the answer was yes then try somewhere
      > else & I was going to post tot that effect today. Your answer has
      > indicated the fish were indeed all from the same source-PetsMart.
      > Unfortunately the vast majority of these stores don't look after their
      > stock at all well & often have no one instore that has any real
      > knowledge of fishkeeping. There is a similar chain of stores here in
      > the UK called Pets At Home which with a few exceptions is awful
      > although I have to say their aquatic plants are excellent!!

      I'll try that. It does seem odd though, that *all* of the goldfish.
      over a long period of time would be defective. And I've bought
      tropicals there with no problems. But it's worth a try.

      There's only one aquatic only store in town and it doesn't carry
      goldfish. There have been a few over the years but they never seem to
      last. The best store in town is a pet and garden store. They at least
      have one or two employees who are knowledgeable. But they are
      expensive. I'll check them out tomorrow and see what they've got.


      --
      Where have all the flowers gone? Pete Seeger 1919-2014
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56651 From: Trevor Holyoak Date: 3/31/2015
      Subject: Speaking of Petsmart...
      I bought my son a betta from Petsmart about 3 1/2 weeks ago. It appears to be healthy still, but as far as I can tell, it has not yet eaten. We've tried pellets, flakes, and frozen brine shrimp. I'm particularly worried because I suspect that Petsmart doesn't feed them - they just sit in little cups on display shelves until they're sold from what it looks like.

      My son just turned 12 and I'm trying to get him interested in the hobby. I've had several tanks for decades, but this is his very own. I'd really like him to start with success, but I've never seen a fish refuse to eat for this long before.

      - Trevor
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56652 From: David Davis Date: 3/31/2015
      Subject: Re: Speaking of Petsmart...
      Do Not Purchase from shops like Petsmart and mass merchandising stores like them.

      Go to a good self owned shop!

      David Davis
      gooddad23@...


      -----Original Message-----
      From: Trevor Holyoak trevor@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
      To: AquaticLife <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Tue, Mar 31, 2015 9:52 am
      Subject: [AquaticLife] Speaking of Petsmart...

       
      I bought my son a betta from Petsmart about 3 1/2 weeks ago. It appears to be healthy still, but as far as I can tell, it has not yet eaten. We've tried pellets, flakes, and frozen brine shrimp. I'm particularly worried because I suspect that Petsmart doesn't feed them - they just sit in little cups on display shelves until they're sold from what it looks like.

      My son just turned 12 and I'm trying to get him interested in the hobby. I've had several tanks for decades, but this is his very own. I'd really like him to start with success, but I've never seen a fish refuse to eat for this long before.

      - Trevor
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56653 From: Susan Small Date: 3/31/2015
      Subject: Re: Speaking of Petsmart...

       have you tried dried Bloodworms, Ive had picky Bettas in my time who would eat nothing but these , also i had to hatch my own brine shrimp, just  thoughts love Sue 
      Subject: [AquaticLife] Speaking of Petsmart...

       
      I bought my son a betta from Petsmart about 3 1/2 weeks ago. It appears to be healthy still, but as far as I can tell, it has not yet eaten. We've tried pellets, flakes, and frozen brine shrimp. I'm particularly worried because I suspect that Petsmart doesn't feed them - they just sit in little cups on display shelves until they're sold from what it looks like.

      My son just turned 12 and I'm trying to get him interested in the hobby. I've had several tanks for decades, but this is his very own. I'd really like him to start with success, but I've never seen a fish refuse to eat for this long before.

      - Trevor


      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56654 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 3/31/2015
      Subject: Re: goldfish problem - help needed
      Hi guys! You all know I am in no way a seasoned fishkeeper but I just had an experience which made me just want to at least put a question on the table for consideration. 
      I've been doing great with my fish and hadn't had any issues since the tank finally finished cycling in January but this week had a young veiled angel that quit eating, had white excrement and was also sluggish and just hanging towards the bottom back behind the plants. Yesterday am he started hanging toward the back, near the surface and behind plants.  When he first started not eating and I noticed white excrement I started researching the symptoms and everything I read pointed at an internal parasite, probably ingested from a plant since all fish but 1 had been purchased together. I had put in a few new plants which ended up having brown hair algae(that I'm now fighting). 
      After reading about the internal parasite I started looking up what I could do to treat it and other than medicated food (which he wouldn't eat anyhow since he was eating nothing) all I could find were some antibiotics or things like Paraguard from Seachem. I contacted Seachem to see if it was a product known to help in this situation and after getting an affirmative I purchased and started treating. 
      I don't have a hospital tank and Seachem said that since it was most likely from a plant I could treat all inhabitants as long as they didn't appear stressed. I treated for 2 days and my little angel passed. 
      All this to ask if it might be possible they're already infected internally before you get them? Maybe by something in their tank at Petsmart or maybe even before they get to Petsmart? 
      Liked said, just a though for consideration.
      Peg

      Sent from my iPad

      On Mar 31, 2015, at 11:57 AM, David Davis gooddad23@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Larry, could you tell us where you live?


      If it is in the Chicago region I could recommend a great place to purchase your fish.

      Their fish are quarantined for 30 days before they sell them.

      I personally have a freshwater 20 gallon tank with 2 nine year old Silver dollars in it and a 46 gallon saltwater live coral and fish tank.

      My best, Dave

      David Davis
      gooddad23@...


      -----Original Message-----
      From: SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
      To: AquaticLife <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Mon, Mar 30, 2015 5:45 pm
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] goldfish problem - help needed

       
      Hi Larry,

        Funnily enough a friend of mine suggested asking you if you got the fish from the same source & if the answer was yes then try somewhere else & I was going to post tot that effect today. Your answer has indicated the fish were indeed all from the same source-PetsMart. Unfortunately the vast majority of these stores don't look after their stock at all well & often have no one instore that has any real knowledge of fishkeeping. There is a similar chain of stores here in the UK called Pets At Home which with a few exceptions is awful although I have to say their aquatic plants are excellent!!

      I would suggest trying a small aquatic only outlet, a generally these stores are owned & run by people who also keep fish as a hobby so you will likely get better advice & the stock will be better quality. There is a great Goldfish site here which tells you everything about getting started: http://goldfishcare101.weebly.com/keeping-goldfishbeginners-guide.html
      I see nothing wrong with your Goldfish keeping regime-in fact you are one step ahead of many people because you cycle the tank first, have another try with some quality fish & see what happens.

        John <o)))<

      On 30 March 2015 at 18:02, Larry Blanchard labl02@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       
      On 03/28/2015 04:38 PM, SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@...
      [AquaticLife] wrote:
      > You say that none of your Goldfish have lied longer than 48 hours &
      > also that they exhibit no symptoms beforehand. Have you seen any of
      > them die-do you find them on the bottom, stuck to the filter inlet or
      > floating around? What decoration[s] do you use?

      I've found then in all 3 locations. On the bottom seems to be the most
      common, IIRC. The only symptom I can see is that they gradually get
      sluggish.

      I've had the problem with and without decorations. Right now I have a
      rock formation and a couple of plastic plants, all for aquariums.

      But you bring up a good point, My next step is a completely bare tank -
      not even any gravel. If that doesn't work, I'll get some EcoComplete
      and turn it into a plants-only tank :-).

      The only other thing I can think of is that they've all been from the
      same store - PetsMart. But I haven't found any web comments to indicate
      they have a known problem.

      I've also considered the food. But it's Omega One and I've always found
      it and Hikari to be good brands.

      My wife keeps telling me to give up - but I'm stubborn :-).

      Your suggestions and questions are appreciated - thanks.

      Larry B

      --
      Where have all the flowers gone? Pete Seeger 1919-2014


      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56655 From: Trevor Holyoak Date: 3/31/2015
      Subject: Re: Speaking of Petsmart...
      I go to different stores depending on what I want to buy. The main reason I do buy some fish from Petsmart is because of their guarantee. The only LFS in my area that offers something similar does it as an "insurance" addon that you have to pay extra for.

      Tuesday, March 31, 2015 11:54 AM
      Do Not Purchase from shops like Petsmart and mass merchandising stores like them.

      Go to a good self owned shop!

      David Davis
      gooddad23@...



      Tuesday, March 31, 2015 10:52 AM
      I bought my son a betta from Petsmart about 3 1/2 weeks ago. It appears to be healthy still, but as far as I can tell, it has not yet eaten. We've tried pellets, flakes, and frozen brine shrimp. I'm particularly worried because I suspect that Petsmart doesn't feed them - they just sit in little cups on display shelves until they're sold from what it looks like.

      My son just turned 12 and I'm trying to get him interested in the hobby. I've had several tanks for decades, but this is his very own. I'd really like him to start with success, but I've never seen a fish refuse to eat for this long before.

      - Trevor

      --
      LDS Podcasts Free for Android, Kindle Fire, Nook tablets, and BlackBerry
      http://www.holyoak.com/ldspodcasts

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56656 From: deenerzz Date: 3/31/2015
      Subject: Re: Speaking of Petsmart...
      Can you get some live food? Maybe mosquito larvae if brine is not available.
      Even stubborn fish will often go for live.   Is the tank warm enough? 
       
      Mike


      -----Original Message-----
      From: Trevor Holyoak trevor@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
      To: AquaticLife <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Tue, Mar 31, 2015 9:52 am
      Subject: [AquaticLife] Speaking of Petsmart...

       
      I bought my son a betta from Petsmart about 3 1/2 weeks ago. It appears to be healthy still, but as far as I can tell, it has not yet eaten. We've tried pellets, flakes, and frozen brine shrimp. I'm particularly worried because I suspect that Petsmart doesn't feed them - they just sit in little cups on display shelves until they're sold from what it looks like.

      My son just turned 12 and I'm trying to get him interested in the hobby. I've had several tanks for decades, but this is his very own. I'd really like him to start with success, but I've never seen a fish refuse to eat for this long before.

      - Trevor
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56657 From: sevenspringss Date: 3/31/2015
      Subject: Re: Speaking of Petsmart...
      AOL Email
      Yes, some fish can get picky.  Even more enticing than dried bloodworms are freshly thawed frozen bloodworms -- with the Hikari brand being the best quality by far, as it's not only flash-frozen, but they raise this food right in their warehouse size buildings.  Other vendors of frozen bloodworms collect them from the wild and include all the twigs, leaf matter and other debris with it.  If nothing else works by newly hatched baby brine shrimp, so much the better, but generally this food is so small that many adult fish no longer look at it as worth going for.     
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 3/31/2015 1:28:41 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       


       have you tried dried Bloodworms, Ive had picky Bettas in my time who would eat nothing but these , also i had to hatch my own brine shrimp, just  thoughts love Sue 
      Subject: [AquaticLife] Speaking of Petsmart...

       
      I bought my son a betta from Petsmart about 3 1/2 weeks ago. It appears to be healthy still, but as far as I can tell, it has not yet eaten. We've tried pellets, flakes, and frozen brine shrimp. I'm particularly worried because I suspect that Petsmart doesn't feed them - they just sit in little cups on display shelves until they're sold from what it looks like.

      My son just turned 12 and I'm trying to get him interested in the hobby. I've had several tanks for decades, but this is his very own. I'd really like him to start with success, but I've never seen a fish refuse to eat for this long before.

      - Trevor


      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56658 From: Trevor Holyoak Date: 3/31/2015
      Subject: Re: Speaking of Petsmart...
      Thanks for the bloodworms suggestions. I'm going to try to pick some up on my way home from work tonight.

      Tuesday, March 31, 2015 3:08 PM
      AOL Email
      Yes, some fish can get picky.  Even more enticing than dried bloodworms are freshly thawed frozen bloodworms -- with the Hikari brand being the best quality by far, as it's not only flash-frozen, but they raise this food right in their warehouse size buildings.  Other vendors of frozen bloodworms collect them from the wild and include all the twigs, leaf matter and other debris with it.  If nothing else works by newly hatched baby brine shrimp, so much the better, but generally this food is so small that many adult fish no longer look at it as worth going for.     
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 3/31/2015 1:28:41 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

      --
      LDS Podcasts Free for Android, Kindle Fire, Nook tablets, and BlackBerry
      http://www.holyoak.com/ldspodcasts

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56659 From: Susan Small Date: 3/31/2015
      Subject: Re: Speaking of Petsmart...

      Fantastic idea, I hope the little Dude eats soon, Love Sue 
        Even more enticing than dried bloodworms are freshly thawed frozen bloodworms -- with the Hikari brand being the best quality by far, as it's not only flash-frozen, but they raise this food right in their warehouse size buildings.  


      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56660 From: sevenspringss Date: 3/31/2015
      Subject: Re: Speaking of Petsmart...
      AOL Email
      As Mike said, try a live food.  A picky fish will usually go for something moving, even over the freshest looking frozen food.  You'll need to store live mosquito larvae in the refrigerator or they be hatching and flying all over the minute you lift the lid.  You'd need to make sure that it's eaten too, for the same reason -- you'll be having them flying around at night biting you.  Adult brine shrimp would be much safer.  Just make sure you buy them on the day the store gets them in.  After a few days, they start dying out as they're not being fed by the storeowner.  Store these in the fridge too, to slow down their metabolism. 
       
      Mike also brings up a good point on temperature.  Bettas prefer it at least 78 o.  Much cooler and they'll lose their appetites.  This hunger strike might not just be a case of the fish being picky, though.  Being kept in those small containers for any length of time will cause the ammonia to elevate, with the result that the fish will get ammonia toxicity, a form of poisoning of the blood.  Until this toxicity is cleared up, a fish just will have no inclination to eat.  As you've had this fish for 3 1/2 weeks, it doesn't appear that it can last much longer without eating.  I really don't think it's long for this world and it's surprising a fish of this small size has lasted as long as it has.  For this reason alone, that you want your son to have success -- and it's doubtful that he could under the circumstances of poorly kept (and doomed) fish from these chainstores -- It would be best to avoid PetsMart in favor of a better quality fish retailer -- even if the price is higher.  Guaranteed fish does not promote success when they constantly need replacing, nor is it encouraging to a young hobbyist just starting out.  It's discouraging to the best of fish hobbyists to have fish die. 
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 3/31/2015 11:52:34 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      I bought my son a betta from Petsmart about 3 1/2 weeks ago. It appears to be healthy still, but as far as I can tell, it has not yet eaten. We've tried pellets, flakes, and frozen brine shrimp. I'm particularly worried because I suspect that Petsmart doesn't feed them - they just sit in little cups on display shelves until they're sold from what it looks like.

      My son just turned 12 and I'm trying to get him interested in the hobby. I've had several tanks for decades, but this is his very own. I'd really like him to start with success, but I've never seen a fish refuse to eat for this long before.

      - Trevor

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56661 From: Trevor Holyoak Date: 3/31/2015
      Subject: Re: Speaking of Petsmart...
      I have never seen live feed sold anywhere locally except for crickets and waxworms. Hopefully frozen will be good enough.

      Tuesday, March 31, 2015 3:30 PM
      AOL Email
      As Mike said, try a live food.  A picky fish will usually go for something moving, even over the freshest looking frozen food.  You'll need to store live mosquito larvae in the refrigerator or they be hatching and flying all over the minute you lift the lid.  You'd need to make sure that it's eaten too, for the same reason -- you'll be having them flying around at night biting you.  Adult brine shrimp would be much safer.  Just make sure you buy them on the day the store gets them in.  After a few days, they start dying out as they're not being fed by the storeowner.  Store these in the fridge too, to slow down their metabolism. 
       
      Mike also brings up a good point on temperature.  Bettas prefer it at least 78 o.  Much cooler and they'll lose their appetites.  This hunger strike might not just be a case of the fish being picky, though.  Being kept in those small containers for any length of time will cause the ammonia to elevate, with the result that the fish will get ammonia toxicity, a form of poisoning of the blood.  Until this toxicity is cleared up, a fish just will have no inclination to eat.  As you've had this fish for 3 1/2 weeks, it doesn't appear that it can last much longer without eating.  I really don't think it's long for this world and it's surprising a fish of this small size has lasted as long as it has.  For this reason alone, that you want your son to have success -- and it's doubtful that he could under the circumstances of poorly kept (and doomed) fish from these chainstores -- It would be best to avoid PetsMart in favor of a better quality fish retailer -- even if the price is higher.  Guaranteed fish does not promote success when they constantly need replacing, nor is it encouraging to a young hobbyist just starting out.  It's discouraging to the best of fish hobbyists to have fish die. 
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 3/31/2015 11:52:34 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

      --
      LDS Podcasts Free for Android, Kindle Fire, Nook tablets, and BlackBerry
      http://www.holyoak.com/ldspodcasts

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56662 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 3/31/2015
      Subject: Re: goldfish problem - help needed
      Worth a try indeed Larry & it may just be a case of you get what you pay for! Let us know how you get on.

        John<o)))<

      On 31 March 2015 at 17:20, Larry Blanchard labl02@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      On 03/30/2015 05:45 PM, SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@...
      [AquaticLife] wrote:
      > Funnily enough a friend of mine suggested asking you if you got the
      > fish from the same source & if the answer was yes then try somewhere
      > else & I was going to post tot that effect today. Your answer has
      > indicated the fish were indeed all from the same source-PetsMart.
      > Unfortunately the vast majority of these stores don't look after their
      > stock at all well & often have no one instore that has any real
      > knowledge of fishkeeping. There is a similar chain of stores here in
      > the UK called Pets At Home which with a few exceptions is awful
      > although I have to say their aquatic plants are excellent!!

      I'll try that. It does seem odd though, that *all* of the goldfish.
      over a long period of time would be defective. And I've bought
      tropicals there with no problems. But it's worth a try.

      There's only one aquatic only store in town and it doesn't carry
      goldfish. There have been a few over the years but they never seem to
      last. The best store in town is a pet and garden store. They at least
      have one or two employees who are knowledgeable. But they are
      expensive. I'll check them out tomorrow and see what they've got.

      --
      Where have all the flowers gone? Pete Seeger 1919-2014


      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56663 From: sevenspringss Date: 3/31/2015
      Subject: Re: goldfish problem - help needed
      AOL Email
      Hi Peg,
       
      I don't know quite where to start, as there are many points that could use addressing.  First of all, and apparently without you realizing it, you are quite astute in figuring the fish might possibly be already infected even before you got it.  YES, this is exactly what happened, and is what happens to many PetsMart Angelfish.  While I'm not trying to unfairly pick on PetsMart for this, it's a known fact among people in the aquarium trade that this outlet's and other chain store outlets' Angelfish are unfortunately already infected before they reach the stores -- as I'll explain below.
       
      There are two major diseases that this chain store's Angelfish develop on the fish farms they're raised at.  They do fine with little mortality until they're shipped to these outlets.  The stress of shipping compromises their immune system, causing what little immunity they have to these diseases to be overwhelmed.  The disease, as you've described it -- and I can expand on what you said about the fish first hanging towards the bottom back behind the plants, then hanging towards the back near the surface -- by telling you that I can bet he was facing into one of the corners.  Tell me if this isn't so, but then how would I know unless I were telling it like it is.   You fish had internal Hexamita disease.  All signs point to it, including the white excrement -- which is really dead stomach lining tissue that's being deteriorated by this flagellated protozoan.  
       
      While you did the right thing in trying to read up on what to do for internal parasites, please know that not all internal parasites will succumb to the same medication, but some respond only to certain medications.  While you were on the right track, you might consider asking here next time.  While you can't do very much disease treating without a hospital tank, the medications of choice for Hexamita are Metronidazole and Clout (Imidazole and Methyl-5-Nitro are helpful if you can find them but not absolutely necessary), after raising the temperature to 92 o F and increasing the aeration -- this last steps purely to help provide the best oxygen content in the water as possible at this temperature.  
       
      There are diseases of course, that may come in with plants and/or other fishes, as Seachem suggests, but this is a generality.  Hexamita is not transmitted nor carried by plants.  While Paraguard is an excellent medication for its uses, and while Seachem is one of the best aquarium medication suppliers, this treatment just does not address the Hexamita parasite.  Without Seachem being informed as to exactly what this issue was being caused by, they could only tell you that Paraguard will treat (some) internal parasites.  They weren't wrong but they didn't have full knowledge of what needed to be treated.
       
      In the future, if you want to try Angelfish with assurance of success, buy them from a breeder, or attend a local aquarium club's fish auction to obtain good quality Angels.  I mentioned a second disease infecting Angels on the fish farms, which I won't go into at this time, only because it doesn't apply here.
       
      Ray
               
       
      In a message dated 3/31/2015 2:14:28 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hi guys! You all know I am in no way a seasoned fishkeeper but I just had an experience which made me just want to at least put a question on the table for consideration. 
      I've been doing great with my fish and hadn't had any issues since the tank finally finished cycling in January but this week had a young veiled angel that quit eating, had white excrement and was also sluggish and just hanging towards the bottom back behind the plants. Yesterday am he started hanging toward the back, near the surface and behind plants.  When he first started not eating and I noticed white excrement I started researching the symptoms and everything I read pointed at an internal parasite, probably ingested from a plant since all fish but 1 had been purchased together. I had put in a few new plants which ended up having brown hair algae(that I'm now fighting). 
      After reading about the internal parasite I started looking up what I could do to treat it and other than medicated food (which he wouldn't eat anyhow since he was eating nothing) all I could find were some antibiotics or things like Paraguard from Seachem. I contacted Seachem to see if it was a product known to help in this situation and after getting an affirmative I purchased and started treating. 
      I don't have a hospital tank and Seachem said that since it was most likely from a plant I could treat all inhabitants as long as they didn't appear stressed. I treated for 2 days and my little angel passed. 
      All this to ask if it might be possible they're already infected internally before you get them? Maybe by something in their tank at Petsmart or maybe even before they get to Petsmart? 
      Liked said, just a though for consideration.
      Peg

      Sent from my iPad

      On Mar 31, 2015, at 11:57 AM, David Davis gooddad23@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Larry, could you tell us where you live?


      If it is in the Chicago region I could recommend a great place to purchase your fish.

      Their fish are quarantined for 30 days before they sell them.

      I personally have a freshwater 20 gallon tank with 2 nine year old Silver dollars in it and a 46 gallon saltwater live coral and fish tank.

      My best, Dave

      David Davis
      gooddad23@...


      -----Original Message-----
      From: SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
      To: AquaticLife <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Mon, Mar 30, 2015 5:45 pm
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] goldfish problem - help needed

       
      Hi Larry,

        Funnily enough a friend of mine suggested asking you if you got the fish from the same source & if the answer was yes then try somewhere else & I was going to post tot that effect today. Your answer has indicated the fish were indeed all from the same source-PetsMart. Unfortunately the vast majority of these stores don't look after their stock at all well & often have no one instore that has any real knowledge of fishkeeping. There is a similar chain of stores here in the UK called Pets At Home which with a few exceptions is awful although I have to say their aquatic plants are excellent!!

      I would suggest trying a small aquatic only outlet, a generally these stores are owned & run by people who also keep fish as a hobby so you will likely get better advice & the stock will be better quality. There is a great Goldfish site here which tells you everything about getting started: http://goldfishcare101.weebly.com/keeping-goldfishbeginners-guide.html
      I see nothing wrong with your Goldfish keeping regime-in fact you are one step ahead of many people because you cycle the tank first, have another try with some quality fish & see what happens.

        John <o)))<

      On 30 March 2015 at 18:02, Larry Blanchard labl02@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       
      On 03/28/2015 04:38 PM, SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@...
      [AquaticLife] wrote:
      > You say that none of your Goldfish have lied longer than 48 hours &
      > also that they exhibit no symptoms beforehand. Have you seen any of
      > them die-do you find them on the bottom, stuck to the filter inlet or
      > floating around? What decoration[s] do you use?

      I've found then in all 3 locations. On the bottom seems to be the most
      common, IIRC. The only symptom I can see is that they gradually get
      sluggish.

      I've had the problem with and without decorations. Right now I have a
      rock formation and a couple of plastic plants, all for aquariums.

      But you bring up a good point, My next step is a completely bare tank -
      not even any gravel. If that doesn't work, I'll get some EcoComplete
      and turn it into a plants-only tank :-).

      The only other thing I can think of is that they've all been from the
      same store - PetsMart. But I haven't found any web comments to indicate
      they have a known problem.

      I've also considered the food. But it's Omega One and I've always found
      it and Hikari to be good brands.

      My wife keeps telling me to give up - but I'm stubborn :-).

      Your suggestions and questions are appreciated - thanks.

      Larry B

      --
      Where have all the flowers gone? Pete Seeger 1919-2014


      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56664 From: susansmall87 Date: 3/31/2015
      Subject: Re: Speaking of Petsmart...

      well said,  ;) I have a cute red  guy now i called Robin he eats everything i throw in smiles, I got him at a very Good pet store  here,  Love Sue in Ontario

      ---In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, <sevenspringss1@...> wrote :

      AOL Email
      As Mike said, try a live food.  A picky fish will usually go for something moving, even over the freshest looking frozen food.  You'll need to store live mosquito larvae in the refrigerator or they be hatching and flying all over the minute you lift the lid.  You'd need to make sure that it's eaten too, for the same reason -- you'll be having them flying around at night biting you.  Adult brine shrimp would be much safer.  Just make sure you buy them on the day the store gets them in.  After a few days, they start dying out as they're not being fed by the storeowner.  Store these in the fridge too, to slow down their metabolism. 
       
      Mike also brings up a good point on temperature.  Bettas prefer it at least 78 o.  Much cooler and they'll lose their appetites.  This hunger strike might not just be a case of the fish being picky, though.  Being kept in those small containers for any length of time will cause the ammonia to elevate, with the result that the fish will get ammonia toxicity, a form of poisoning of the blood.  Until this toxicity is cleared up, a fish just will have no inclination to eat.  As you've had this fish for 3 1/2 weeks, it doesn't appear that it can last much longer without eating.  I really don't think it's long for this world and it's surprising a fish of this small size has lasted as long as it has.  For this reason alone, that you want your son to have success -- and it's doubtful that he could under the circumstances of poorly kept (and doomed) fish from these chainstores -- It would be best to avoid PetsMart in favor of a better quality fish retailer -- even if the price is higher.  Guaranteed fish does not promote success when they constantly need replacing, nor is it encouraging to a young hobbyist just starting out.  It's discouraging to the best of fish hobbyists to have fish die. 
       
      Ray

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56665 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 3/31/2015
      Subject: Re: goldfish problem - help needed
      Hi Peg,

        I'm sorry to hear you lost your fish, it's never easy. It is quite possible & unfortunate that some fish from the large chain stores are already infected before you buy them so if possible go to a small specialist store but I realise this is not possible for a lot of areas. I won't comment on Angels in particular because I don't know enough about them to give you anything worthwhile but when I bought new plants for my tank I rinsed them in a dish with a solution of white vinegar & then into salt water before rinsing off with clean water. This will take care of any hitch-hikers [snails, eggs etc] but if you want to make doubly sure you could rinse in a weak solution of Potassium Permanganate crystals-wear latex gloves because it stains your skin!

        John<o)))<

      On 31 March 2015 at 20:02, Peg Yruegas peg@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      Hi guys! You all know I am in no way a seasoned fishkeeper but I just had an experience which made me just want to at least put a question on the table for consideration. 
      I've been doing great with my fish and hadn't had any issues since the tank finally finished cycling in January but this week had a young veiled angel that quit eating, had white excrement and was also sluggish and just hanging towards the bottom back behind the plants. Yesterday am he started hanging toward the back, near the surface and behind plants.  When he first started not eating and I noticed white excrement I started researching the symptoms and everything I read pointed at an internal parasite, probably ingested from a plant since all fish but 1 had been purchased together. I had put in a few new plants which ended up having brown hair algae(that I'm now fighting). 
      After reading about the internal parasite I started looking up what I could do to treat it and other than medicated food (which he wouldn't eat anyhow since he was eating nothing) all I could find were some antibiotics or things like Paraguard from Seachem. I contacted Seachem to see if it was a product known to help in this situation and after getting an affirmative I purchased and started treating. 
      I don't have a hospital tank and Seachem said that since it was most likely from a plant I could treat all inhabitants as long as they didn't appear stressed. I treated for 2 days and my little angel passed. 
      All this to ask if it might be possible they're already infected internally before you get them? Maybe by something in their tank at Petsmart or maybe even before they get to Petsmart? 
      Liked said, just a though for consideration.
      Peg

      Sent from my iPad

      On Mar 31, 2015, at 11:57 AM, David Davis gooddad23@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Larry, could you tell us where you live?


      If it is in the Chicago region I could recommend a great place to purchase your fish.

      Their fish are quarantined for 30 days before they sell them.

      I personally have a freshwater 20 gallon tank with 2 nine year old Silver dollars in it and a 46 gallon saltwater live coral and fish tank.

      My best, Dave

      David Davis
      gooddad23@...


      -----Original Message-----
      From: SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
      To: AquaticLife <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Mon, Mar 30, 2015 5:45 pm
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] goldfish problem - help needed

       
      Hi Larry,

        Funnily enough a friend of mine suggested asking you if you got the fish from the same source & if the answer was yes then try somewhere else & I was going to post tot that effect today. Your answer has indicated the fish were indeed all from the same source-PetsMart. Unfortunately the vast majority of these stores don't look after their stock at all well & often have no one instore that has any real knowledge of fishkeeping. There is a similar chain of stores here in the UK called Pets At Home which with a few exceptions is awful although I have to say their aquatic plants are excellent!!

      I would suggest trying a small aquatic only outlet, a generally these stores are owned & run by people who also keep fish as a hobby so you will likely get better advice & the stock will be better quality. There is a great Goldfish site here which tells you everything about getting started: http://goldfishcare101.weebly.com/keeping-goldfishbeginners-guide.html
      I see nothing wrong with your Goldfish keeping regime-in fact you are one step ahead of many people because you cycle the tank first, have another try with some quality fish & see what happens.

        John <o)))<

      On 30 March 2015 at 18:02, Larry Blanchard labl02@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       
      On 03/28/2015 04:38 PM, SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@...
      [AquaticLife] wrote:
      > You say that none of your Goldfish have lied longer than 48 hours &
      > also that they exhibit no symptoms beforehand. Have you seen any of
      > them die-do you find them on the bottom, stuck to the filter inlet or
      > floating around? What decoration[s] do you use?

      I've found then in all 3 locations. On the bottom seems to be the most
      common, IIRC. The only symptom I can see is that they gradually get
      sluggish.

      I've had the problem with and without decorations. Right now I have a
      rock formation and a couple of plastic plants, all for aquariums.

      But you bring up a good point, My next step is a completely bare tank -
      not even any gravel. If that doesn't work, I'll get some EcoComplete
      and turn it into a plants-only tank :-).

      The only other thing I can think of is that they've all been from the
      same store - PetsMart. But I haven't found any web comments to indicate
      they have a known problem.

      I've also considered the food. But it's Omega One and I've always found
      it and Hikari to be good brands.

      My wife keeps telling me to give up - but I'm stubborn :-).

      Your suggestions and questions are appreciated - thanks.

      Larry B

      --
      Where have all the flowers gone? Pete Seeger 1919-2014



      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56666 From: Larry Blanchard Date: 3/31/2015
      Subject: Re: goldfish problem - help needed
      On 03/31/2015 08:57 AM, David Davis gooddad23@... [AquaticLife] wrote:
      >
      > Larry, could you tell us where you live?
      >
      >
      > If it is in the Chicago region I could recommend a great place to
      > purchase your fish.

      I'm in the Spokane WA area and I know every fish store in the region -
      not that that takes a lot of memory space. We have 2 or 3 PetsMart
      stores, 2 (IIRC) Petcos, 2 NW Seed&Pet, and one locally owned tropical
      only (if it's still in business). Oops, almost forgot - another locally
      owed store - saltwater only.

      --
      Where have all the flowers gone? Pete Seeger 1919-2014
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56667 From: Larry Blanchard Date: 3/31/2015
      Subject: Re: Speaking of Petsmart...
      On 03/31/2015 02:08 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] wrote:
      > Yes, some fish can get picky. Even more enticing than dried
      > bloodworms are freshly thawed frozen bloodworms -- with the Hikari
      > brand being the best quality by far, as it's not only flash-frozen,
      > but they raise this food right in their warehouse size buildings.

      I can testify to the pickiness of bettas and to the quality of Hikari
      bloodworms. But even that may not be enough till he gets really hungry!

      I second the suggestion of warmth. They'll live in cold water but do
      better if treated like the tropical they are.

      I once had a lethargic betta and a male platy that was the terror of his
      tank. I put the two in a 5 gallon of their own and they loved it. Took
      turns chasing each other around the tank.

      --
      Where have all the flowers gone? Pete Seeger 1919-2014
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56668 From: sevenspringss Date: 3/31/2015
      Subject: Re: Speaking of Petsmart...
      AOL Email
      3 1/2 weeks without eating and he's not hungry yet?
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 3/31/2015 10:07:59 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      On 03/31/2015 02:08 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] wrote:
      > Yes, some fish can get picky. Even more enticing than dried
      > bloodworms are freshly thawed frozen bloodworms -- with the Hikari
      > brand being the best quality by far, as it's not only flash-frozen,
      > but they raise this food right in their warehouse size buildings.

      I can testify to the pickiness of bettas and to the quality of Hikari
      bloodworms. But even that may not be enough till he gets really hungry!

      I second the suggestion of warmth. They'll live in cold water but do
      better if treated like the tropical they are.

      I once had a lethargic betta and a male platy that was the terror of his
      tank. I put the two in a 5 gallon of their own and they loved it. Took
      turns chasing each other around the tank.

      --
      Where have all the flowers gone? Pete Seeger 1919-2014

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56669 From: drums4charity Date: 4/2/2015
      Subject: Need fish in ATL

      I am looking for an outlet in the ATL region from which to get my new aquaponics system up. I'm looking for channel/blue/flat catfish, black crappie and some sort of bream. This will be a micro order. I am setting up an ultra-high yield vegetable garden that will also provide us with protein from edible fish. Anyone know where I can garner these in this area without spending a fortune? I am using a 10X3 pool liner for my tank.

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56670 From: Andy Mills Date: 4/6/2015
      Subject: Snowdrop pleco?
      I saw a fish in one of our local shops a few days called a snowdrop
      pleco. When I got home I thought I'd have a look and try and find some
      information on it but, try as I might, I'm not having luck. When I
      search for this fish all I find is people's lists of fish who say they
      have got one in their tank, not a single site giving information on its
      needs, size, etc, like you usually find when you do a search for a
      specific fish. I'd never heard of this fish previously, I've heard of a
      snowball pleco but not a snowdrop pleco. Is snowdrop another name for
      snowball or is this a completely different fish, if people have got them
      they must exist so why so difficult to find it anywhere. Does anyone
      know what this fish is/what it's real name is and where I could find
      some information on it?
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56671 From: sevenspringss Date: 4/6/2015
      Subject: Re: Snowdrop pleco?
      AOL Email
      Andy,
       
      This Pleco is relatively new in the hobby.  As such, it has not been fully described (it doesn't have a full scientific name).  As such, it has been assigned an "L" number, just as all new & rare Plecos are given.  It has been found to be in the genus Scobinancistrus and since it doesn't yet have a species name it's simply described as "Scobinancistrus sp." (species).  It has been assigned the L number -- L133 to better differentiate from other similar Pleco-type species.  You could try looking under this L name to find more information on it -- if there's much written up on it at all. 
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 4/6/2015 1:41:28 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      I saw a fish in one of our local shops a few days called a snowdrop
      pleco. When I got home I thought I'd have a look and try and find some
      information on it but, try as I might, I'm not having luck. When I
      search for this fish all I find is people's lists of fish who say they
      have got one in their tank, not a single site giving information on its
      needs, size, etc, like you usually find when you do a search for a
      specific fish. I'd never heard of this fish previously, I've heard of a
      snowball pleco but not a snowdrop pleco. Is snowdrop another name for
      snowball or is this a completely different fish, if people have got them
      they must exist so why so difficult to find it anywhere. Does anyone
      know what this fish is/what it's real name is and where I could find
      some information on it?

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56672 From: Kevin Boyle Date: 4/6/2015
      Subject: Re: Snowdrop pleco?
      if you go the planet catfish, http://www.planetcatfish.com/ and type in snowball pleco they have a o lot of info. most likely someone at the LFS misnamed it?

      On 4/6/2015 1:41 PM, Andy Mills andy.mills@... [AquaticLife] wrote:
       

      I saw a fish in one of our local shops a few days called a snowdrop
      pleco. When I got home I thought I'd have a look and try and find some
      information on it but, try as I might, I'm not having luck. When I
      search for this fish all I find is people's lists of fish who say they
      have got one in their tank, not a single site giving information on its
      needs, size, etc, like you usually find when you do a search for a
      specific fish. I'd never heard of this fish previously, I've heard of a
      snowball pleco but not a snowdrop pleco. Is snowdrop another name for
      snowball or is this a completely different fish, if people have got them
      they must exist so why so difficult to find it anywhere. Does anyone
      know what this fish is/what it's real name is and where I could find
      some information on it?


      Posted by: Andy Mills <andy.mills@...>
      Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (1)
      AquaticLife � A great way to share experience & ask ?s

      Join us on our Facebook page...https://www.facebook.com/AquaticLifeGroup

      Pleas

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56673 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 4/6/2015
      Subject: Re: Snowdrop pleco?
      Hi Andy,

        I typed in 'Pleco L133' as Ray suggested & did a Google picture search which brought up a whole stack! It's an interesting looking fish.

        John

      On 6 April 2015 at 20:16, Kevin Boyle synoscats@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      if you go the planet catfish, http://www.planetcatfish.com/ and type in snowball pleco they have a o lot of info. most likely someone at the LFS misnamed it?

      On 4/6/2015 1:41 PM, Andy Mills andy.mills@... [AquaticLife] wrote:
       

      I saw a fish in one of our local shops a few days called a snowdrop
      pleco. When I got home I thought I'd have a look and try and find some
      information on it but, try as I might, I'm not having luck. When I
      search for this fish all I find is people's lists of fish who say they
      have got one in their tank, not a single site giving information on its
      needs, size, etc, like you usually find when you do a search for a
      specific fish. I'd never heard of this fish previously, I've heard of a
      snowball pleco but not a snowdrop pleco. Is snowdrop another name for
      snowball or is this a completely different fish, if people have got them
      they must exist so why so difficult to find it anywhere. Does anyone
      know what this fish is/what it's real name is and where I could find
      some information on it?


      Posted by: Andy Mills <andy.mills@...>
      Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (1)
      AquaticLife � A great way to share experience & ask ?s

      Join us on our Facebook page...https://www.facebook.com/AquaticLifeGroup

      Pleas


      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56674 From: Angela Cancilla Herschel Date: 4/11/2015
      Subject: "Honey" Moray Eel Remembers
      I wanted to share this video .
        It shows how without force and gentle patience, trust ( aka: taming) is built. 
      Isn't she gorgeous ?
      After years of returning to see this eel, Valerie finally makes friends with "Honey" a Moray eel .....who always remembers her. 
      And she even now has full protection of the King.


      Ciao, Angela Cancilla Herschel in SoCal 
      Being kind is more important ..than being important. ~

      California Wildlife Center,volunteer wildlife warrior ~
      www.cawildlife.org

      sent from my iPhone 
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56675 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 4/12/2015
      Subject: Re: "Honey" Moray Eel Remembers
      Hi Angela,

        Thanks for sharing that-what a lovely sight but it doesn't surprise me, I've long suspected most aquatic animals are extremely intelligent with excellent memories & also very capable of affection-that is certainly true of my fish. Have you seen the longer version of that clip? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhHy5MppDKE

        John<o)))<

      On 12 April 2015 at 06:23, Angela Cancilla Herschel angelasfeathers@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      I wanted to share this video .
        It shows how without force and gentle patience, trust ( aka: taming) is built. 
      Isn't she gorgeous ?
      After years of returning to see this eel, Valerie finally makes friends with "Honey" a Moray eel .....who always remembers her. 
      And she even now has full protection of the King.


      Ciao, Angela Cancilla Herschel in SoCal 
      Being kind is more important ..than being important. ~

      California Wildlife Center,volunteer wildlife warrior ~
      www.cawildlife.org

      sent from my iPhone 


      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56676 From: lgb9999027 Date: 4/12/2015
      Subject: Re: goldfish problem - help needed
      OK, I went to the local store to try a goldfish that wasn't from PetsMart.   Their fish guy (wo's been there forever and does know fish) suggested a couple of things.  I foloowed his suggestions and went back and got one Shubunkin goldfish a week later.  After acclimation, I put it in the tank at 3PM and it was dead before 8AM the next morning!

      @#$%!

      OK, I got out the master kit and tested everything I had chemicals for.  I did find one anomaly.  The Ph was 7.5 and Gh was 380-400 or more, but Kh varied from 96-108.  Seems almost impossible to get that combination, but I tested over multiple days at different times of day and kept getting similar numbers.

      An online search turned up several "experts" who, naturally, disagreed on what Kh should be for goldfish, but the test kit documentation from API says 100-400, and that agrees with a majority of the online sites.

      So I'm going to raise the Kh and try again.  Wish me luck.

      Larry B
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56677 From: sevenspringss Date: 4/12/2015
      Subject: Re: goldfish problem - help needed
      AOL Email
      Larry,
       
      Alright, great -- you tested all of your water parameters -- AFTER this latest fish was dead -- all, after you've long known that each fish you put in your tank has died within a day.  #1, Why did you not test it before you even went for the fish, and #2, Even more importantly, WHY did you not test the shop's water in the bag that this fish came in (even before you put the fish in your water), to see how different it was from your water.  Your GH of 380 - 400 PPM is exceedingly hard -- at over 22 dGH.  If your fish came from water that was much less in hardness, too great of a difference would result in the fish becoming dehydrated as it's bodily fluids were drawn out of it through it's gills via the process of osmosis as the "pressures" of solutions of metals (some as "salts")  tried to equalize each other (that in your water and that in the fish's body).  By "salts," I'm not meaning table salt, but every minute amount of bodily salts found in the blood & tissue of the fish; calcium, magnesium, besides the body's essential metals -- manganese, iron, zinc, selenium, etc.) and similar elements found in your water. 
       
      I'm not saying that this IS what happened, but it could have.  Without having the test results of the fish shop's water though, we can't ever know.  With this high of a hardness of your water, did you at least take MUCH longer that usual in acclimating your fish to your water?  I think probably not, as you didn't even test your water to know of your extreme hardness until after the fish expired, or so it appears from your description of what has transpired.
       
      Your KH -- of very slightly over 5 o temporary Hardness is somewhat low for Goldfish (or, at least at the bottom of the scale) -- which prefer a higher KH, but I don't think this would have been lethal to this fish.  If API states that a low of 100 ppm KH is still within a Goldfish's tolerance, why would you want to increase it, when this is the same as what your's is?  Not that you shouldn't increase it, but I'm trying to determine your reasoning when confronted with an "allowable" number.  More than this number itself though, what is the difference between the shop's KH and your's?  While you haven't indicated what this advice was, just what were these suggestions that this local shop's fish guy suggested to you?  It can't help us further determine what happened when that part's been kept secret from us.  BTW, what KH value do you have in mind to raise your's to?  Do you realize you'll need to maintain this same level during each PWC (partial water change), if you tamper with it now?  
       
      Ray
         
       
      In a message dated 4/12/2015 11:44:23 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      OK, I went to the local store to try a goldfish that wasn't from PetsMart.   Their fish guy (wo's been there forever and does know fish) suggested a couple of things.  I foloowed his suggestions and went back and got one Shubunkin goldfish a week later.  After acclimation, I put it in the tank at 3PM and it was dead before 8AM the next morning!

      @#$%!

      OK, I got out the master kit and tested everything I had chemicals for.  I did find one anomaly.  The Ph was 7.5 and Gh was 380-400 or more, but Kh varied from 96-108.  Seems almost impossible to get that combination, but I tested over multiple days at different times of day and kept getting similar numbers.

      An online search turned up several "experts" who, naturally, disagreed on what Kh should be for goldfish, but the test kit documentation from API says 100-400, and that agrees with a majority of the online sites.

      So I'm going to raise the Kh and try again.  Wish me luck.

      Larry B

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56678 From: Trevor Holyoak Date: 4/12/2015
      Subject: Re: Speaking of Petsmart...
      It turns out it wouldn't touch the frozen bloodworms. But it's still alive. I realized a few days ago that if food is left overnight, it is gone in the morning. I had been putting it in and then taking it out so as not to foul the water when it wasn't being eaten. So apparently the betta is shy enough that it won't eat during daylight, or it's nocturnal or something.

      Tuesday, March 31, 2015 6:16 PM

      I can testify to the pickiness of bettas and to the quality of Hikari
      bloodworms. But even that may not be enough till he gets really hungry!

      I second the suggestion of warmth. They'll live in cold water but do
      better if treated like the tropical they are.

      I once had a lethargic betta and a male platy that was the terror of his
      tank. I put the two in a 5 gallon of their own and they loved it. Took
      turns chasing each other around the tank.

      Tuesday, March 31, 2015 3:08 PM
      AOL Email
      Yes, some fish can get picky.  Even more enticing than dried bloodworms are freshly thawed frozen bloodworms -- with the Hikari brand being the best quality by far, as it's not only flash-frozen, but they raise this food right in their warehouse size buildings.  Other vendors of frozen bloodworms collect them from the wild and include all the twigs, leaf matter and other debris with it.  If nothing else works by newly hatched baby brine shrimp, so much the better, but generally this food is so small that many adult fish no longer look at it as worth going for.     
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 3/31/2015 1:28:41 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

      --
      LDS Podcasts Free for Android, Kindle Fire, Nook tablets, and BlackBerry
      http://www.holyoak.com/ldspodcasts

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56679 From: sevenspringss Date: 4/12/2015
      Subject: Re: Speaking of Petsmart...
      Very surprising that it has existed this long without food, but now that
      it appears to be eating it should do well from here on in. Hard to know
      when you run up against a neurotic Betta. While I can't recall what kind of
      an environment you've provided for him, it wouldn't seem a fish would be
      that shy as to not eat, when in a more natural setting (a large enough vessel,
      with plants, etc.) of a more than confining capacity. Glad to see it's
      accepting frozen bloodworms. Until (or, if) this fish gets over this unusual
      behavior, it would seem to be best to feed it shortly before lights-out so
      that this food is not left exposed to bacteria for too long before he eats
      it. Could be he may even prefer to eat at first light in the morning
      when most fish just start to become active.

      Ray



      In a message dated 4/13/2015 12:53:20 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
      AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:






      It turns out it wouldn't touch the frozen bloodworms. But it's still
      alive. I realized a few days ago that if food is left overnight, it is gone in
      the morning. I had been putting it in and then taking it out so as not to
      foul the water when it wasn't being eaten. So apparently the betta is shy
      enough that it won't eat during daylight, or it's nocturnal or something.





      _Larry Blanchard labl02@... [AquaticLife]_
      (mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com)
      Tuesday, March 31, 2015 6:16 PM




      I can testify to the pickiness of bettas and to the quality of Hikari
      bloodworms. But even that may not be enough till he gets really hungry!

      I second the suggestion of warmth. They'll live in cold water but do
      better if treated like the tropical they are.

      I once had a lethargic betta and a male platy that was the terror of his
      tank. I put the two in a 5 gallon of their own and they loved it. Took
      turns chasing each other around the tank.






      _sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]_ (mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com)
      Tuesday, March 31, 2015 3:08 PM





      Yes, some fish can get picky. Even more enticing than dried bloodworms
      are freshly thawed frozen bloodworms -- with the Hikari brand being the best
      quality by far, as it's not only flash-frozen, but they raise this food
      right in their warehouse size buildings. Other vendors of frozen bloodworms
      collect them from the wild and include all the twigs, leaf matter and other
      debris with it. If nothing else works by newly hatched baby brine
      shrimp, so much the better, but generally this food is so small that many adult
      fish no longer look at it as worth going for.

      Ray



      In a message dated 3/31/2015 1:28:41 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
      _AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com) writes:







      --
      LDS Podcasts Free for Android, Kindle Fire, Nook tablets, and BlackBerry
      http://www.holyoak.com/ldspodcasts









      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56680 From: Larry Blanchard Date: 4/13/2015
      Subject: Re: goldfish problem - help needed
      On 04/12/2015 09:46 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] wrote:
      > Alright, great -- you tested all of your water parameters -- AFTER
      > this latest fish was dead -- all, after you've long known that each
      > fish you put in your tank has died within a day. #1, Why did you not
      > test it before you even went for the fish, and #2, Even more
      > importantly, WHY did you not test the shop's water in the bag that
      > this fish came in (even before you put the fish in your water), to see
      > how different it was from your water.

      Every place in the county gets their water from the same source - an
      underground aquifer. The whole area has very hard water. The pet shop
      is about 2 miles from me.

      My mistake was assuming that what was good for my tropicals was good for
      goldfish.

      And then you say that what I discovered probably isn't a problem anyway.

      Ah well.

      --
      Where have all the flowers gone? Pete Seeger 1919-2014
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56681 From: sevenspringss Date: 4/13/2015
      Subject: Re: goldfish problem - help needed
      AOL Email
      Alright, so then it seems we have to assume that the fish shop's water parameters are very close to your's, if not identical, since they both come from thee same source.  That being, then we can rule out any large difference in osmotic pressure.  Not knowing specifically what you "discovered," I can't say that I said any such thing about it not being a problem, but at this point I don't know exactly what discovery you're referring to. 
       
      Ray
       
      --
       
      Oh, when will they ever learn?
       
       
      In a message dated 4/13/2015 3:51:33 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      On 04/12/2015 09:46 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] wrote:
      > Alright, great -- you tested all of your water parameters -- AFTER
      > this latest fish was dead -- all, after you've long known that each
      > fish you put in your tank has died within a day. #1, Why did you not
      > test it before you even went for the fish, and #2, Even more
      > importantly, WHY did you not test the shop's water in the bag that
      > this fish came in (even before you put the fish in your water), to see
      > how different it was from your water.

      Every place in the county gets their water from the same source - an
      underground aquifer. The whole area has very hard water. The pet shop
      is about 2 miles from me.

      My mistake was assuming that what was good for my tropicals was good for
      goldfish.

      And then you say that what I discovered probably isn't a problem anyway.

      Ah well.

      --
      Where have all the flowers gone? Pete Seeger 1919-2014

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56682 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 4/13/2015
      Subject: Re: goldfish problem - help needed
      ​Hi Larry,

        This is a curious one to work out for sure & I think your latest experience with that poor Shubunkin​ strongly suggests that there is something amiss with your water which peculiarly has no effect on, or is negated by tropical tank use but has disastrous effects on 'cold' water fish. I understand your argument that the LFS is on the same supply but nevertheless something is not right at home-could there be a plumbing problem such as a build-up of calcium somewhere? I'm no chemist but for those that know about such things could a build-up of something in the plumbing system cause a reaction like this while leaving tropical fish unaffected? Something that is temperature specific? Just trying to think outside of the box  . . .

         John<o)))<

      On 13 April 2015 at 21:07, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      Alright, so then it seems we have to assume that the fish shop's water parameters are very close to your's, if not identical, since they both come from thee same source.  That being, then we can rule out any large difference in osmotic pressure.  Not knowing specifically what you "discovered," I can't say that I said any such thing about it not being a problem, but at this point I don't know exactly what discovery you're referring to. 
       
      Ray
       
      --
       
      Oh, when will they ever learn?
       
       
      In a message dated 4/13/2015 3:51:33 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      On 04/12/2015 09:46 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] wrote:
      > Alright, great -- you tested all of your water parameters -- AFTER
      > this latest fish was dead -- all, after you've long known that each
      > fish you put in your tank has died within a day. #1, Why did you not
      > test it before you even went for the fish, and #2, Even more
      > importantly, WHY did you not test the shop's water in the bag that
      > this fish came in (even before you put the fish in your water), to see
      > how different it was from your water.

      Every place in the county gets their water from the same source - an
      underground aquifer. The whole area has very hard water. The pet shop
      is about 2 miles from me.

      My mistake was assuming that what was good for my tropicals was good for
      goldfish.

      And then you say that what I discovered probably isn't a problem anyway.

      Ah well.

      --
      Where have all the flowers gone? Pete Seeger 1919-2014


      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56683 From: Patrick A. Timlin Date: 4/14/2015
      Subject: Re: goldfish problem - help needed
      One thought that comes to mind is that even though you and the pet store are close together, have you asked the pet store if they alter their water in any way? Because they have to house a great many types of fish, it could very well be that they have their entire store on some sort of water softening system so that their water is a bit more "neutral" in order to house all their various fish with water that is "middle of the road" enough that they don't have to fuss over it for specific tanks and specific fish?
       
      Regards,
      Patrick
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56684 From: Larry Blanchard Date: 4/14/2015
      Subject: Re: goldfish problem - help needed
      On 04/13/2015 03:44 PM, SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@...
      [AquaticLife] wrote:
      > This is a curious one to work out for sure & I think your latest
      > experience with that poor Shubunkin​ strongly suggests that there is
      > something amiss with your water which peculiarly has no effect on, or
      > is negated by tropical tank use but has disastrous effects on 'cold'
      > water fish. I understand your argument that the LFS is on the same
      > supply but nevertheless something is not right at home-could there be
      > a plumbing problem such as a build-up of calcium somewhere? I'm no
      > chemist but for those that know about such things could a build-up of
      > something in the plumbing system cause a reaction like this while
      > leaving tropical fish unaffected? Something that is temperature
      > specific? Just trying to think outside of the box . . .

      Since the house is almost 60 years old, I wouldn't be surprised at
      *anything* in the plumbing :-). We did have the plumber run a line
      from the main cold water pipe to the kitchen sink so the water softener
      wouldn't affect our drinking water and that's where I get the aquarium
      water. That was when we moved in 3 years ago. Everything else goes
      through a water softener to prevent exactly what you're saying. I had a
      plumber tell me once that in this area the life of a water heater is
      about 4 years without a softener!

      Hmmm. Wonder what would happen if I used the softened water in the
      aquarium? Looking online, opinions vary from "no problem here" to "No,
      no, a thousand times no." That's par for the course :-).

      Before I get that radical, I'll remove the gravel (everything else has
      been removed) and add some potassium carbonate to bring up the Kh. Then
      I'll try again with a feeder - cheaper and I don't feel guilty when it dies.

      Thanks for the input.

      Larry B




      --
      Where have all the flowers gone? Pete Seeger 1919-2014
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56685 From: Larry Blanchard Date: 4/14/2015
      Subject: Re: goldfish problem - help needed
      On 04/14/2015 05:51 AM, 'Patrick A. Timlin' ptimlin@...
      [AquaticLife] wrote:
      > One thought that comes to mind is that even though you and the pet
      > store are close together, have you asked the pet store if they alter
      > their water in any way? Because they have to house a great many types
      > of fish, it could very well be that they have their entire store on
      > some sort of water softening system so that their water is a bit more
      > "neutral" in order to house all their various fish with water that is
      > "middle of the road" enough that they don't have to fuss over it for
      > specific tanks and specific fish?

      Interesting thought - I'll do that. IIRC, they do have water running
      through the tanks constantly, so softening would be quite an expense,
      but it's certainly worth checking.

      --
      Where have all the flowers gone? Pete Seeger 1919-2014
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56686 From: sevenspringss Date: 4/14/2015
      Subject: Re: goldfish problem - help needed
      AOL Email
      With this new line being installed from the cold water main to the kitchen sink -- where you draw water for the goldfish tank -- it's quite possible this is a copper line.  If it is, each goldfish you've put in this water may have been exposed to copper poisoning -- especially if this line is not flushed first, and especially too if the goldfish tank is being filled the first thing in the morning before any water is used for anything else.  BUT -- Where do you get your water for the tropical fish?  If you use softened water for the tropical fish which wouldn't come through this line, then this may be your answer.  If both types of fish are having their water drawn from this new line, then it's back to the drawing board.
       
      Ray
       
      In a message dated 4/14/2015 2:13:43 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

      Since the house is almost 60 years old, I wouldn't be surprised at
      *anything* in the plumbing :-). We did have the plumber run a line
      from the main cold water pipe to the kitchen sink so the water softener
      wouldn't affect our drinking water and that's where I get the aquarium
      water. That was when we moved in 3 years ago. Everything else goes
      through a water softener to prevent exactly what you're saying. I had a
      plumber tell me once that in this area the life of a water heater is
      about 4 years without a softener!

      Hmmm. Wonder what would happen if I used the softened water in the
      aquarium? Looking online, opinions vary from "no problem here" to "No,
      no, a thousand times no." That's par for the course :-).

      Before I get that radical, I'll remove the gravel (everything else has
      been removed) and add some potassium carbonate to bring up the Kh. Then
      I'll try again with a feeder - cheaper and I don't feel guilty when it dies.

      Thanks for the input.

      Larry B

      --
      Where have all the flowers gone? Pete Seeger 1919-2014

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56687 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 4/14/2015
      Subject: Re: goldfish problem - help needed
      Hello again Larry,

        Please don't use a feeder just because they are cheap, we need to find out what the problem is without sacrificing any more fish. I think Patrick had a good suggestion-find out if your LFS do anything to their water before using it in the tanks. Also a couple of days ago you said the LFS gave you some advice to follow-what was that? Finally bear in mind what Ray said about artificially altering the hardness, that is a nightmare because you then have to keep it at that level which may prove impossible.

        John<o)))<

      On 14 April 2015 at 19:25, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      With this new line being installed from the cold water main to the kitchen sink -- where you draw water for the goldfish tank -- it's quite possible this is a copper line.  If it is, each goldfish you've put in this water may have been exposed to copper poisoning -- especially if this line is not flushed first, and especially too if the goldfish tank is being filled the first thing in the morning before any water is used for anything else.  BUT -- Where do you get your water for the tropical fish?  If you use softened water for the tropical fish which wouldn't come through this line, then this may be your answer.  If both types of fish are having their water drawn from this new line, then it's back to the drawing board.
       
      Ray
       
      In a message dated 4/14/2015 2:13:43 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

      Since the house is almost 60 years old, I wouldn't be surprised at
      *anything* in the plumbing :-). We did have the plumber run a line
      from the main cold water pipe to the kitchen sink so the water softener
      wouldn't affect our drinking water and that's where I get the aquarium
      water. That was when we moved in 3 years ago. Everything else goes
      through a water softener to prevent exactly what you're saying. I had a
      plumber tell me once that in this area the life of a water heater is
      about 4 years without a softener!

      Hmmm. Wonder what would happen if I used the softened water in the
      aquarium? Looking online, opinions vary from "no problem here" to "No,
      no, a thousand times no." That's par for the course :-).

      Before I get that radical, I'll remove the gravel (everything else has
      been removed) and add some potassium carbonate to bring up the Kh. Then
      I'll try again with a feeder - cheaper and I don't feel guilty when it dies.

      Thanks for the input.

      Larry B

      --
      Where have all the flowers gone? Pete Seeger 1919-2014


      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56688 From: Larry Blanchard Date: 4/14/2015
      Subject: Re: goldfish problem - help needed
      On 04/14/2015 11:25 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] wrote:
      > If both types of fish are having their water drawn from this new line,
      > then it's back to the drawing board.
      They are. That's why I had it put in. I've also drained the tank down
      to the gravel and refilled it with half fresh water and half used water
      from the tropical tank. Made no difference.

      I just got back from PetsMart. They don't add anything to their water
      except a dechlorinator. They tested their parameters with a litmus
      strip and it came out pretty much the same as mine did with the test
      tubes. I also got a water sample from them, but I haven't tested it yet.

      Thanks for the ideas.

      --
      Where have all the flowers gone? Pete Seeger 1919-2014
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56689 From: Larry Blanchard Date: 4/14/2015
      Subject: Re: goldfish problem - help needed
      On 04/14/2015 01:38 PM, SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@...
      [AquaticLife] wrote:
      > Also a couple of days ago you said the LFS gave you some advice to
      > follow-what was that?

      Remove the heater - I had it at 70, removing it took the temp down to 68.
      Use some water drained from the tropical tank - I did that.
      The other suggestions were things I'd already done.

      --
      Where have all the flowers gone? Pete Seeger 1919-2014
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56690 From: susansmall87 Date: 4/15/2015
      Subject: Re: Speaking of Petsmart...

       thats nice he's still alive but i find it much fun to see them beg for food and feeed them and watch them eat, they can be soo friendly ,  like puppies in a Jar  smiless, Love Sue




      foul the water when it wasn't being eaten. So apparently the betta is shy
      enough that it won't eat during daylight, or it's nocturnal or something.



      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56691 From: lgb9999027 Date: 4/15/2015
      Subject: Re: goldfish problem - help needed
      OK, I tested the PetsMart water with the API chemicals.  Their KH is even lower than mine - about 72.  Their PH is 7.3 or 4 compared to my 7.5.  Their GH is over the top. just like mine.  Doesn't seem like enough to trigger instant (almost) death, especially with acclimating them for over an hour.

      FYI, that "over the top" comment above.  The test consists of adding drops to a sample and counting up to when the sample changes from the original color to the final color.  It takes 22 drops to get to 400ppm and at 22 drops neither their water or mine had changed to its final color.  A few tests like that and I'm out of test solution.  And that stuff is *expensive*.

      So I think the low Kh probably isn't the problerm.  The only thing I can see left is the different gravels and the presence vs absence of plants.  My next step is to replace the large gravel with something more plant friendly, install some goldfish resistant plants and let them settle in, and then try again.

      Or accept my wife's theory - my "office" is hexed :-).
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56692 From: sevenspringss Date: 4/15/2015
      Subject: Re: goldfish problem - help needed
      AOL Email
      As I've seen no reply to the possibility of this new plumbing being copper tubing, should it be assumed that pipe other than copper was used?
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 4/15/2015 8:24:15 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      OK, I tested the PetsMart water with the API chemicals.  Their KH is even lower than mine - about 72.  Their PH is 7.3 or 4 compared to my 7.5.  Their GH is over the top. just like mine.  Doesn't seem like enough to trigger instant (almost) death, especially with acclimating them for over an hour.

      FYI, that "over the top" comment above.  The test consists of adding drops to a sample and counting up to when the sample changes from the original color to the final color.  It takes 22 drops to get to 400ppm and at 22 drops neither their water or mine had changed to its final color.  A few tests like that and I'm out of test solution.  And that stuff is *expensive*.

      So I think the low Kh probably isn't the problerm.  The only thing I can see left is the different gravels and the presence vs absence of plants.  My next step is to replace the large gravel with something more plant friendly, install some goldfish resistant plants and let them settle in, and then try again.

      Or accept my wife's theory - my "office" is hexed :-).

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56693 From: Larry Blanchard Date: 4/16/2015
      Subject: Re: goldfish problem - help needed
      On 04/15/2015 07:37 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] wrote:
      > As I've seen no reply to the possibility of this new plumbing being
      > copper tubing, should it be assumed that pipe other than copper was used?

      Yes - it was that new plastic stuff. But if it had been copper, are
      goldfish more susceptible to copper poisoning than tropicals? And so fast?

      I'm just about forced to the conclusion that there's something strange
      in the water that the test kits don't test for and the water conditioner
      doesn't remove, but the plants do. And even that leaves me wondering
      about the rapidity.

      --
      Where have all the flowers gone? Pete Seeger 1919-2014
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56694 From: sevenspringss Date: 4/16/2015
      Subject: Re: goldfish problem - help needed
      AOL Email
      Yes, it would appear as though the problem is related to something in the water, which we haven't pinned down yet.  I don't believe goldfish would be any more susceptible to copper poisoning than tropical fish.  If it were copper poisoning though, then yes, depending on the quantity of dissolved copper in the water, it could be as fast as overnight.  Is there any other copper plumbing in the house that the fish tank water runs through? 
       
      Does the tropical fish tank water run through all of this same plumbing that the goldfish tank water runs through?
       
      When was the last time you completely filled the tropical fish tank, from empty?  Did you use any type of water conditioner then?
       
      When was the last time you completely filled the goldfish tank -- and did you use any type of water conditioner then -- and where they the same water conditioners? 
       
      Did your water company recently change to using chloramine in the water, from using just chlorine up until then?
       
      Has it been a while since you last completely filled the tropical fish tank, and are you now just doing regular partial water changes in that tank for some time now?
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 4/16/2015 12:58:00 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      On 04/15/2015 07:37 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] wrote:
      > As I've seen no reply to the possibility of this new plumbing being
      > copper tubing, should it be assumed that pipe other than copper was used?

      Yes - it was that new plastic stuff. But if it had been copper, are
      goldfish more susceptible to copper poisoning than tropicals? And so fast?

      I'm just about forced to the conclusion that there's something strange
      in the water that the test kits don't test for and the water conditioner
      doesn't remove, but the plants do. And even that leaves me wondering
      about the rapidity.

      --
      Where have all the flowers gone? Pete Seeger 1919-2014

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56695 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 4/16/2015
      Subject: Re: goldfish problem - help needed
      Is it possible that given the water is the same for both tanks that something in the water is triggered by the cooler temperature in the Goldfish tank whereas it remains dormant in the heated tropical tank? Just a thought.

        John<o)))<

      On 16 April 2015 at 19:30, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      Yes, it would appear as though the problem is related to something in the water, which we haven't pinned down yet.  I don't believe goldfish would be any more susceptible to copper poisoning than tropical fish.  If it were copper poisoning though, then yes, depending on the quantity of dissolved copper in the water, it could be as fast as overnight.  Is there any other copper plumbing in the house that the fish tank water runs through? 
       
      Does the tropical fish tank water run through all of this same plumbing that the goldfish tank water runs through?
       
      When was the last time you completely filled the tropical fish tank, from empty?  Did you use any type of water conditioner then?
       
      When was the last time you completely filled the goldfish tank -- and did you use any type of water conditioner then -- and where they the same water conditioners? 
       
      Did your water company recently change to using chloramine in the water, from using just chlorine up until then?
       
      Has it been a while since you last completely filled the tropical fish tank, and are you now just doing regular partial water changes in that tank for some time now?
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 4/16/2015 12:58:00 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      On 04/15/2015 07:37 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] wrote:
      > As I've seen no reply to the possibility of this new plumbing being
      > copper tubing, should it be assumed that pipe other than copper was used?

      Yes - it was that new plastic stuff. But if it had been copper, are
      goldfish more susceptible to copper poisoning than tropicals? And so fast?

      I'm just about forced to the conclusion that there's something strange
      in the water that the test kits don't test for and the water conditioner
      doesn't remove, but the plants do. And even that leaves me wondering
      about the rapidity.

      --
      Where have all the flowers gone? Pete Seeger 1919-2014


      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56696 From: sevenspringss Date: 4/16/2015
      Subject: Re: goldfish problem - help needed
      AOL Email
      That would make it too easy < g >.  I don't know of anything in the water that could behave like that.  I'm starting to wonder if each time a goldfish is put in that tank, that the water's newly drawn just recently -- within a day or two -- and hasn't been treated for chloramine.  That would poison any fish overnight.  This is why I asked about the tropical tank.  If only partial water changes have been done to that tank for a good while, that wouldn't be lethal.  Somewhat toxic maybe, depending on how much chloramine the water company uses, but not necessarily lethal. 
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 4/16/2015 4:42:02 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Is it possible that given the water is the same for both tanks that something in the water is triggered by the cooler temperature in the Goldfish tank whereas it remains dormant in the heated tropical tank? Just a thought.

        John<o)))<

      On 16 April 2015 at 19:30, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      Yes, it would appear as though the problem is related to something in the water, which we haven't pinned down yet.  I don't believe goldfish would be any more susceptible to copper poisoning than tropical fish.  If it were copper poisoning though, then yes, depending on the quantity of dissolved copper in the water, it could be as fast as overnight.  Is there any other copper plumbing in the house that the fish tank water runs through? 
       
      Does the tropical fish tank water run through all of this same plumbing that the goldfish tank water runs through?
       
      When was the last time you completely filled the tropical fish tank, from empty?  Did you use any type of water conditioner then?
       
      When was the last time you completely filled the goldfish tank -- and did you use any type of water conditioner then -- and where they the same water conditioners? 
       
      Did your water company recently change to using chloramine in the water, from using just chlorine up until then?
       
      Has it been a while since you last completely filled the tropical fish tank, and are you now just doing regular partial water changes in that tank for some time now?
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 4/16/2015 12:58:00 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      On 04/15/2015 07:37 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] wrote:
      > As I've seen no reply to the possibility of this new plumbing being
      > copper tubing, should it be assumed that pipe other than copper was used?

      Yes - it was that new plastic stuff. But if it had been copper, are
      goldfish more susceptible to copper poisoning than tropicals? And so fast?

      I'm just about forced to the conclusion that there's something strange
      in the water that the test kits don't test for and the water conditioner
      doesn't remove, but the plants do. And even that leaves me wondering
      about the rapidity.

      --
      Where have all the flowers gone? Pete Seeger 1919-2014


      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56697 From: Larry Blanchard Date: 4/16/2015
      Subject: Re: goldfish problem - help needed
      On 04/16/2015 11:30 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] wrote:
      > Yes, it would appear as though the problem is related to something in
      > the water, which we haven't pinned down yet. I don't believe goldfish
      > would be any more susceptible to copper poisoning than tropical fish.
      > If it were copper poisoning though, then yes, depending on the
      > quantity of dissolved copper in the water, it could be as fast as
      > overnight. Is there any other copper plumbing in the house that the
      > fish tank water runs through?
      No.

      > Does the tropical fish tank water run through all of this same
      > plumbing that the goldfish tank water runs through?
      Yes
      > When was the last time you completely filled the tropical fish tank,
      > from empty? Did you use any type of water conditioner then?
      About 2.5 years ago. Yes, AquaSafe+. Now doing 20% a week.
      > When was the last time you completely filled the goldfish tank -- and
      > did you use any type of water conditioner then -- and where they the
      > same water conditioners?
      About 2 weeks ago as per a previous post. Same conditioner, only did a
      double dose as suggested by the fish guy at the pet store.

      > Did your water company recently change to using chloramine in the
      > water, from using just chlorine up until then?
      No - from nothing to chlorine.
      > Has it been a while since you last completely filled the tropical fish
      > tank, and are you now just doing regular partial water changes in that
      > tank for some time now?
      Thou repeatest thyself - see above :-).

      --
      Where have all the flowers gone? Pete Seeger 1919-2014
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56698 From: Larry Blanchard Date: 4/16/2015
      Subject: Re: goldfish problem - help needed
      On 04/16/2015 01:41 PM, SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@...
      [AquaticLife] wrote:
      > Is it possible that given the water is the same for both tanks that
      > something in the water is triggered by the cooler temperature in the
      > Goldfish tank whereas it remains dormant in the heated tropical tank?
      > Just a thought.

      Possible, but I'd say unlikely. If someone here is a water chemist,
      they might be able to give a better answer.

      --
      Where have all the flowers gone? Pete Seeger 1919-2014
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56699 From: Larry Blanchard Date: 4/16/2015
      Subject: Re: goldfish problem - help needed
      On 04/16/2015 02:14 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] wrote:
      > -- and hasn't been treated for chloramine.

      Somewhere in antiquity, when I started this thread, I mentioned I'd kept
      and bred fish for many years. I may screw up, but not with something
      that simple :-).

      --
      Where have all the flowers gone? Pete Seeger 1919-2014
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56700 From: sevenspringss Date: 4/16/2015
      Subject: Re: goldfish problem - help needed
      AOL Email
      Would have replied sooner but I had a local, monthly fish club meeting to attend this past evening.  Thanks for the answers.  While the same plumbing is used for both the tropical fish tank and the goldfish tank, it's been 2.5 years ago since the tropical tank was last filled completely, as a then-empty tank at that time -- and as this one section of pipe is comparably new, the tropical tank never had more than 20% of it's capacity of water running through this new plumbing section.  Yeah, it's only plastic (PVC?) pipe, but this shows that it can't be rule out as being suspect even though both tanks get water though this pipe. 
       
      I guess I missed that post about when the last time the goldfish tank was completely filled, or I just don't remember it.  With you just recently adding this Shubunkin -- a good while after you filled the tank, any chlorine would have dissipated by now even if you hadn't used a water conditioner -- if you're quite positive that chloramine isn't being used.  As chloramine would have this result though, since it doesn't dissipate nor is it rendered completely safe with a chIorine remover, I do wonder if it might be worth a phone call to them just to be assured. 
       
      With using AquaSafe+ on both tanks, and nothing drastic happening with the tropical tank, we can rule out the water conditioner as causing anything -- unless again, the water contains chloramine.  I'm only suggesting things in hopes to be completely sure of being able to eliminate them, or to find the source of the problem.  Truthfully, if it were me, I'd call my water company to see if maybe they did another switch of additives without announcing it.  While they still may be using just chlorine, I find nothing else that could cause this problem except chloramine -- or, the plumbing, which may not affect fish when doing only a PWC, but will be toxic when filling a tank completely.  Both of these possibilities are like reaching for a straw, but we have to start someplace.      
       
      Ray
       
       
       
      In a message dated 4/16/2015 8:52:54 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      On 04/16/2015 11:30 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] wrote:
      > Yes, it would appear as though the problem is related to something in
      > the water, which we haven't pinned down yet. I don't believe goldfish
      > would be any more susceptible to copper poisoning than tropical fish.
      > If it were copper poisoning though, then yes, depending on the
      > quantity of dissolved copper in the water, it could be as fast as
      > overnight. Is there any other copper plumbing in the house that the
      > fish tank water runs through?
      No.

      > Does the tropical fish tank water run through all of this same
      > plumbing that the goldfish tank water runs through?
      Yes
      > When was the last time you completely filled the tropical fish tank,
      > from empty? Did you use any type of water conditioner then?
      About 2.5 years ago. Yes, AquaSafe+. Now doing 20% a week.
      > When was the last time you completely filled the goldfish tank -- and
      > did you use any type of water conditioner then -- and where they the
      > same water conditioners?
      About 2 weeks ago as per a previous post. Same conditioner, only did a
      double dose as suggested by the fish guy at the pet store.

      > Did your water company recently change to using chloramine in the
      > water, from using just chlorine up until then?
      No - from nothing to chlorine.
      > Has it been a while since you last completely filled the tropical fish
      > tank, and are you now just doing regular partial water changes in that
      > tank for some time now?
      Thou repeatest thyself - see above :-).

      --
      Where have all the flowers gone? Pete Seeger 1919-2014

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56701 From: sevenspringss Date: 4/16/2015
      Subject: Re: goldfish problem - help needed
      AOL Email
      Just trying to rule out any possibility that may have been overlooked.  I've kept and bred fish for 68 years, yet I know I can still make mistakes -- I'm not infallible.  Things can happen when and where we least expect them.
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 4/16/2015 8:55:06 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      On 04/16/2015 02:14 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] wrote:
      > -- and hasn't been treated for chloramine.

      Somewhere in antiquity, when I started this thread, I mentioned I'd kept
      and bred fish for many years. I may screw up, but not with something
      that simple :-).

      --
      Where have all the flowers gone? Pete Seeger 1919-2014

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56702 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 4/17/2015
      Subject: Re: goldfish problem - help needed
      Hi Larry,

        In addition to a call it may also be worth getting a water quality report from your local water company-usually there is a section on their website where you can input your post/zip code & you get a page of stats. If you could copy & paste it here it may help as someone may spot something amiss.

        John<o)))<

      On 17 April 2015 at 06:42, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      Just trying to rule out any possibility that may have been overlooked.  I've kept and bred fish for 68 years, yet I know I can still make mistakes -- I'm not infallible.  Things can happen when and where we least expect them.
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 4/16/2015 8:55:06 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      On 04/16/2015 02:14 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] wrote:
      > -- and hasn't been treated for chloramine.

      Somewhere in antiquity, when I started this thread, I mentioned I'd kept
      and bred fish for many years. I may screw up, but not with something
      that simple :-).

      --
      Where have all the flowers gone? Pete Seeger 1919-2014


      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56703 From: Acer Myron Date: 4/17/2015
      Subject: Re: goldfish problem - help needed
      Hi i am Acer.I have a fish farm i tallahassee. I do not usually do this but i feel for you! if u would like i can try to help i have talked to my staff about you we have some thoughts that may help. acer.myron@...  just some of the fish we have



      On Monday, April 13, 2015 12:46 AM, "sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


       
      | Larry,   Alright, great -- you tested all of your water parameters -- AFTER this latest fish was dead -- all, after you've long known that each fish you put in your tank has died within a day.  #1, Why did you not test it before you even went for the fish, and #2, Even more importantly, WHY did you not test the shop's water in the bag that this fish came in (even before you put the fish in your water), to see how different it was from your water.  Your GH of 380 - 400 PPM is exceedingly hard -- at over 22 dGH.  If your fish came from water that was much less in hardness, too great of a difference would result in the fish becoming dehydrated as it's bodily fluids were drawn out of it through it's gills via the process of osmosis as the "pressures" of solutions of metals (some as "salts")  tried to equalize each other (that in your water and that in the fish's body).  By "salts," I'm not meaning table salt, but every minute amount of bodily salts found in the blood & tissue of the fish; calcium, magnesium, besides the body's essential metals -- manganese, iron, zinc, selenium, etc.) and similar elements found in your water.    I'm not saying that this IS what happened, but it could have.  Without having the test results of the fish shop's water though, we can't ever know.  With this high of a hardness of your water, did you at least take MUCH longer that usual in acclimating your fish to your water?  I think probably not, as you didn't even test your water to know of your extreme hardness until after the fish expired, or so it appears from your description of what has transpired.   Your KH -- of very slightly over 5 o temporary Hardness is somewhat low for Goldfish (or, at least at the bottom of the scale) -- which prefer a higher KH, but I don't think this would have been lethal to this fish.  If API states that a low of 100 ppm KH is still within a Goldfish's tolerance, why would you want to increase it, when this is the same as what your's is?  Not that you shouldn't increase it, but I'm trying to determine your reasoning when confronted with an "allowable" number.  More than this number itself though, what is the difference between the shop's KH and your's?  While you haven't indicated what this advice was, just what were these suggestions that this local shop's fish guy suggested to you?  It can't help us further determine what happened when that part's been kept secret from us.  BTW, what KH value do you have in mind to raise your's to?  Do you realize you'll need to maintain this same level during each PWC (partial water change), if you tamper with it now?     Ray       In a message dated 4/12/2015 11:44:23 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
        OK, I went to the local store to try a goldfish that wasn't from PetsMart.   Their fish guy (wo's been there forever and does know fish) suggested a couple of things.  I foloowed his suggestions and went back and got one Shubunkin goldfish a week later.  After acclimation, I put it in the tank at 3PM and it was dead before 8AM the next morning!

      @#$%!

      OK, I got out the master kit and tested everything I had chemicals for.  I did find one anomaly.  The Ph was 7.5 and Gh was 380-400 or more, but Kh varied from 96-108.  Seems almost impossible to get that combination, but I tested over multiple days at different times of day and kept getting similar numbers.

      An online search turned up several "experts" who, naturally, disagreed on what Kh should be for goldfish, but the test kit documentation from API says 100-400, and that agrees with a majority of the online sites.

      So I'm going to raise the Kh and try again.  Wish me luck.

      Larry B
      |

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      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56704 From: Larry Blanchard Date: 4/17/2015
      Subject: Re: goldfish problem - help needed
      On 04/16/2015 10:36 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] wrote:
      > While the same plumbing is used for both the tropical fish tank and
      > the goldfish tank, it's been 2.5 years ago since the tropical tank was
      > last filled completely, as a then-empty tank at that time -- and as
      > this one section of pipe is comparably new, the tropical tank never
      > had more than 20% of it's capacity of water running through this new
      > plumbing section.

      My bad - I wasn't clear. 2.5 years ago was when we moved in. All water
      in both tanks has always come through that new pipe.

      >As chloramine would have this result though, since it doesn't
      dissipate nor is it rendered >completely safe with a chIorine remover

      Please explain. Aquasafe+ says chloramines are "removed or neutralized".

      PS: For some reason, when I go to reply to your post, it shows up with
      the bars around it as in the first quote above. Are you using the web
      interface or replying via email?

      --
      Where have all the flowers gone? Pete Seeger 1919-2014
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56705 From: Larry Blanchard Date: 4/17/2015
      Subject: Re: goldfish problem - help needed
      On 04/17/2015 03:28 AM, SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@...
      [AquaticLife] wrote:
      > In addition to a call it may also be worth getting a water quality
      > report from your local water company-usually there is a section on
      > their website where you can input your post/zip code & you get a page
      > of stats. If you could copy & paste it here it may help as someone may
      > spot something amiss.

      They are using calcium hydrochloride tablets. I don't know if that
      generates chlorine or chloramine and neither did they.

      I've attached a water quality report from 2013 - 2014 isn't out yet. Not
      very helpful.

      --
      Where have all the flowers gone? Pete Seeger 1919-2014



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56706 From: sevenspringss Date: 4/17/2015
      Subject: Re: goldfish problem - help needed
      AOL Email
      Larry,
       
      Alright, then with the new pipe having been used to fill both fish tanks, and nothing detrimental happening with the tropicals, it would seem that the new plumbing is not the problem.  In trying to eliminate this pipe completely, as the possible source of the problem, any possible toxicity associated with this pipe could still have some time element to it -- example being that you filled the goldfish tank only two weeks (or less) prior to adding a goldfish.  On the other hand, and while I'm just assuming this, I could guess that you may have even cycled the tropical tank before adding fish to it -- which can take up to six weeks.  I'm just trying to touch all bases here to be sure we're not missing anything important and relevant.  Would you care to please elaborate on what I've surmised? 
       
      Okay, on the AquaSafe+; I hadn't taken the time to research it and I appreciate your filling me in.
       
      On the bars around my replies, please excuse my not understanding this as I just don't see anything out of the ordinary at this end, even when you include my message back to me in your replies.  For starters, I'm not really sure what is meant by "bars," although I do see what I believe may be called directional arrows -- they look like this -- > > > > > > .  I'm not going up on the Group Homepage to reply from there, but rather, I'm replying directly to the Yahoogroup emails I receive in my mailbox.   
       
      Ray
       
      In a message dated 4/17/2015 2:16:45 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      On 04/16/2015 10:36 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] wrote:
      > While the same plumbing is used for both the tropical fish tank and
      > the goldfish tank, it's been 2.5 years ago since the tropical tank was
      > last filled completely, as a then-empty tank at that time -- and as
      > this one section of pipe is comparably new, the tropical tank never
      > had more than 20% of it's capacity of water running through this new
      > plumbing section.

      My bad - I wasn't clear. 2.5 years ago was when we moved in. All water
      in both tanks has always come through that new pipe.

      >As chloramine would have this result though, since it doesn't
      dissipate nor is it rendered >completely safe with a chIorine remover

      Please explain. Aquasafe+ says chloramines are "removed or neutralized".

      PS: For some reason, when I go to reply to your post, it shows up with
      the bars around it as in the first quote above. Are you using the web
      interface or replying via email?

      --
      Where have all the flowers gone? Pete Seeger 1919-2014

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56707 From: sevenspringss Date: 4/17/2015
      Subject: Re: goldfish problem - help needed
      AOL Email
      While I've attempted to look into Calcium Hydrochloride further, to get to know more about it, I'm sorry to say that I can't get a single hit for it in searching through Google.  I get well over 100, 000 hits though, for Calcium Hypochlorite.  I wonder if this was what the water company meant.  Calcium Hypochlorite does produce chlorine and in solid (tablet) form it consists of  65% chlorine.  Google states that it's used as a drinking water supply disinfectant, among other uses.  It's also used as swimming pool "shock," to remove the bacteria in a pool. 
       
      Incidentally, the way that water companies add chloramine to their drinking water supply is that they release ammonia gas into the pressurized water system within their plant and "upstream" of this ammonia in their in-plant system, they release chlorine gas, separately.  As the two gases come together in the water, they combine.  So, water companies don't actually add chloramine, but instead, they add chlorine and ammonia as two separate additives -- which then combine on contact with each other.
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 4/17/2015 2:17:58 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      On 04/17/2015 03:28 AM, SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@...
      [AquaticLife] wrote:
      > In addition to a call it may also be worth getting a water quality
      > report from your local water company-usually there is a section on
      > their website where you can input your post/zip code & you get a page
      > of stats. If you could copy & paste it here it may help as someone may
      > spot something amiss.

      They are using calcium hydrochloride tablets. I don't know if that
      generates chlorine or chloramine and neither did they.

      I've attached a water quality report from 2013 - 2014 isn't out yet. Not
      very helpful.

      --
      Where have all the flowers gone? Pete Seeger 1919-2014

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56708 From: Trevor Holyoak Date: 4/17/2015
      Subject: Re: goldfish problem - help needed
      I live in a small enough city that no water treatment is done - the water comes directly from wells. Before I found out about that, I thought my chlorine test kit was defective, and actually had the manufacturer send me a free replacement. The tradeoff is that, of course, the water is pretty hard. But my fish seem to like it fine. :)

      - Trevor

      Friday, April 17, 2015 1:13 PM
      AOL Email
      While I've attempted to look into Calcium Hydrochloride further, to get to know more about it, I'm sorry to say that I can't get a single hit for it in searching through Google.  I get well over 100, 000 hits though, for Calcium Hypochlorite.  I wonder if this was what the water company meant.  Calcium Hypochlorite does produce chlorine and in solid (tablet) form it consists of  65% chlorine.  Google states that it's used as a drinking water supply disinfectant, among other uses.  It's also used as swimming pool "shock," to remove the bacteria in a pool. 
       
      Incidentally, the way that water companies add chloramine to their drinking water supply is that they release ammonia gas into the pressurized water system within their plant and "upstream" of this ammonia in their in-plant system, they release chlorine gas, separately.  As the two gases come together in the water, they combine.  So, water companies don't actually add chloramine, but instead, they add chlorine and ammonia as two separate additives -- which then combine on contact with each other.
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 4/17/2015 2:17:58 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

      --
      LDS Podcasts Free for Android, Kindle Fire, Nook tablets, and BlackBerry
      http://www.holyoak.com/ldspodcasts

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56709 From: Larry Blanchard Date: 4/18/2015
      Subject: Re: goldfish problem - help needed
      On 04/17/2015 11:42 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] wrote:
      >
      > - example being that you filled the goldfish tank only two weeks (or
      > less) prior to adding a goldfish. On the other hand, and while I'm
      > just assuming this, I could guess that you may have even cycled the
      > tropical tank before adding fish to it -- which can take up to six
      > weeks. I'm just trying to touch all bases here to be sure we're not
      > missing anything important and relevant. Would you care to please
      > elaborate on what I've surmised?
      >
      > Actually I cycled the problem tank before adding fish. In the
      > tropical tank I had the plants growing like crazy in a substrate of
      > EcoComplete and didn't need to do a separate cycle before adding the fish.
      > I do see what I believe may be called directional arrows -- they look
      > like this -- > > > > > > . I'm not going up on the Group Homepage to
      > reply from there, but rather, I'm replying directly to the Yahoogroup
      > emails I receive in my mailbox.
      >
      Strange. I'm using email as well so that eliminates a web interface
      problem. I'm running Pan under Linux so it may be an artifact of my
      environment, but if so it just started. This message I'm responding to
      had the bars and the little boxes in the corners as if it had been
      "selected".

      I took a look at the message source of your email and one from a
      different aquaticlife member. Yours shows a bunch of "=20" at the end
      of lines and you're sending both text and html. Is this something
      you've changed recently? It's not a big problem, I was just curious why
      your messages had suddenly become different.



      > Ray
      > In a message dated 4/17/2015 2:16:45 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
      > AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
      >
      > On 04/16/2015 10:36 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] wrote:
      > > While the same plumbing is used for both the tropical fish tank and
      > > the goldfish tank, it's been 2.5 years ago since the tropical
      > tank was
      > > last filled completely, as a then-empty tank at that time -- and as
      > > this one section of pipe is comparably new, the tropical tank never
      > > had more than 20% of it's capacity of water running through this
      > new
      > > plumbing section.
      >
      > My bad - I wasn't clear. 2.5 years ago was when we moved in. All
      > water
      > in both tanks has always come through that new pipe.
      >
      > >As chloramine would have this result though, since it doesn't
      > dissipate nor is it rendered >completely safe with a chIorine remover
      >
      > Please explain. Aquasafe+ says chloramines are "removed or
      > neutralized".
      >
      > PS: For some reason, when I go to reply to your post, it shows up
      > with
      > the bars around it as in the first quote above. Are you using the web
      > interface or replying via email?
      >
      > --
      > Where have all the flowers gone? Pete Seeger 1919-2014
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
      > Posted by: Sevenspringss1@...
      > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
      > Reply via web post
      > <https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/AquaticLife/conversations/messages/56706;_ylc=X3oDMTJxOXZnNTg2BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzg0OTUxNTcEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDQyNzUyBG1zZ0lkAzU2NzA2BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTQyOTI5NjEzOQ--?act=reply&messageNum=56706>
      > • Reply to sender
      > <mailto:Sevenspringss1@...?subject=Re%3A%20%5BAquaticLife%5D%20goldfish%20problem%20-%20help%20needed>
      > • Reply to group
      > <mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com?subject=Re%3A%20%5BAquaticLife%5D%20goldfish%20problem%20-%20help%20needed>
      > • Start a New Topic
      > <https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/AquaticLife/conversations/newtopic;_ylc=X3oDMTJlbjZqOWZ1BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzg0OTUxNTcEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDQyNzUyBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTQyOTI5NjEzOQ-->
      > • Messages in this topic
      > <https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/AquaticLife/conversations/topics/56643;_ylc=X3oDMTM2OHZjaGpoBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzg0OTUxNTcEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDQyNzUyBG1zZ0lkAzU2NzA2BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTQyOTI5NjEzOQR0cGNJZAM1NjY0Mw-->
      > (41)
      >
      >

      --
      Where have all the flowers gone? Pete Seeger 1919-2014
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56710 From: Larry Blanchard Date: 4/18/2015
      Subject: Re: goldfish problem - help needed
      On 04/17/2015 12:13 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] wrote:
      > While I've attempted to look into Calcium Hydrochloride further, to
      > get to know more about it, I'm sorry to say that I can't get a single
      > hit for it in searching through Google. I get well over 100, 000 hits
      > though, for Calcium Hypochlorite. I wonder if this was what the water
      > company meant.

      Probably so. I got that info over the phone and might well have heard
      it wrong.

      P.S. No strange boxes with this message :-).

      --
      Where have all the flowers gone? Pete Seeger 1919-2014
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56711 From: Larry Blanchard Date: 4/18/2015
      Subject: Re: goldfish problem - help needed
      On 04/17/2015 01:33 PM, Trevor Holyoak trevor@... [AquaticLife]
      wrote:
      > I live in a small enough city that no water treatment is done - the
      > water comes directly from wells. Before I found out about that, I
      > thought my chlorine test kit was defective, and actually had the
      > manufacturer send me a free replacement. The tradeoff is that, of
      > course, the water is pretty hard. But my fish seem to like it fine. :)

      Ours was like that till a year or two back. One of the samples showed
      coliform bacteria so they started using chlorine. It's a very light
      dose - I can't even smell it when running water.

      --
      Where have all the flowers gone? Pete Seeger 1919-2014
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56712 From: sevenspringss Date: 4/18/2015
      Subject: Re: goldfish problem - help needed
      AOL Email
      I haven't specifically selected anything.  Actually, I wasn't even aware that my messages came through with bars and little boxes in the corners.  I have no idea where the "=20"s at the ends of the lines came from.  Maybe another member can indicate if these messages look the same to them or not.  I haven't done anything to change my messages.  What's even stranger is that you didn't receive it like that in a subsequent message, as per your following email.   
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 4/18/2015 1:48:57 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      On 04/17/2015 11:42 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] wrote:
      >
      > - example being that you filled the goldfish tank only two weeks (or
      > less) prior to adding a goldfish. On the other hand, and while I'm
      > just assuming this, I could guess that you may have even cycled the
      > tropical tank before adding fish to it -- which can take up to six
      > weeks. I'm just trying to touch all bases here to be sure we're not
      > missing anything important and relevant. Would you care to please
      > elaborate on what I've surmised?
      >
      > Actually I cycled the problem tank before adding fish. In the
      > tropical tank I had the plants growing like crazy in a substrate of
      > EcoComplete and didn't need to do a separate cycle before adding the fish.
      > I do see what I believe may be called directional arrows -- they look
      > like this -- > > > > > > . I'm not going up on the Group Homepage to
      > reply from there, but rather, I'm replying directly to the Yahoogroup
      > emails I receive in my mailbox.
      >
      Strange. I'm using email as well so that eliminates a web interface
      problem. I'm running Pan under Linux so it may be an artifact of my
      environment, but if so it just started. This message I'm responding to
      had the bars and the little boxes in the corners as if it had been
      "selected".

      I took a look at the message source of your email and one from a
      different aquaticlife member. Yours shows a bunch of "=20" at the end
      of lines and you're sending both text and html. Is this something
      you've changed recently? It's not a big problem, I was just curious why
      your messages had suddenly become different.

      > Ray
      > In a message dated 4/17/2015 2:16:45 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
      > AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
      >
      > On 04/16/2015 10:36 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] wrote:
      > > While the same plumbing is used for both the tropical fish tank and
      > > the goldfish tank, it's been 2.5 years ago since the tropical
      > tank was
      > > last filled completely, as a then-empty tank at that time -- and as
      > > this one section of pipe is comparably new, the tropical tank never
      > > had more than 20% of it's capacity of water running through this
      > new
      > > plumbing section.
      >
      > My bad - I wasn't clear. 2.5 years ago was when we moved in. All
      > water
      > in both tanks has always come through that new pipe.
      >
      > >As chloramine would have this result though, since it doesn't
      > dissipate nor is it rendered >completely safe with a chIorine remover
      >
      > Please explain. Aquasafe+ says chloramines are "removed or
      > neutralized".
      >
      > PS: For some reason, when I go to reply to your post, it shows up
      > with
      > the bars around it as in the first quote above. Are you using the web
      > interface or replying via email?
      >
      > --
      > Where have all the flowers gone? Pete Seeger 1919-2014
      >
      >
      > ----------------------------------------------------------
      > Posted by: Sevenspringss1@...
      > ----------------------------------------------------------
      > Reply via web post
      > <https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/AquaticLife/conversations/messages/56706;_ylc=X3oDMTJxOXZnNTg2BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzg0OTUxNTcEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDQyNzUyBG1zZ0lkAzU2NzA2BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTQyOTI5NjEzOQ--?act=reply&messageNum=56706>
      > • Reply to sender
      > <mailto:Sevenspringss1@...?subject=Re%3A%20%5BAquaticLife%5D%20goldfish%20problem%20-%20help%20needed>
      > • Reply to group
      > <mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com?subject=Re%3A%20%5BAquaticLife%5D%20goldfish%20problem%20-%20help%20needed>
      > • Start a New Topic
      > <https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/AquaticLife/conversations/newtopic;_ylc=X3oDMTJlbjZqOWZ1BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzg0OTUxNTcEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDQyNzUyBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTQyOTI5NjEzOQ-->
      > • Messages in this topic
      > <https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/AquaticLife/conversations/topics/56643;_ylc=X3oDMTM2OHZjaGpoBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzg0OTUxNTcEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDQyNzUyBG1zZ0lkAzU2NzA2BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTQyOTI5NjEzOQR0cGNJZAM1NjY0Mw-->
      > (41)
      >
      >

      --
      Where have all the flowers gone? Pete Seeger 1919-2014

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56713 From: joe t Date: 4/18/2015
      Subject: Re: goldfish problem - help needed
      Hi.  Just noting, Larry wrote,  "They are using calcium hydrochloride tablets. I don't know if that
      generates chlorine or chloramine and neither did they."

      Well I didn't expect Larry to know but it sure scares the hell out of me when the water company people don't know.

      As an aside, Larry, a little something that it seems no one thought of.............we are talking about a "big" fish that both consumes and poops a lot.  Gold fish foul water fast!  How big a bag -or container- does the pet store give you, and maybe more important, how long did this fish have to stay in this confine before you got home and started to acclimate him to the water.

      I have had people leave my place with perfectly healthy fish only to have them come back complaining the fish was either sick or died.  Honest talk discovered they had the fish in the bag so long it died of asphyxiation.

      If you're running a long trip or doing chores or  shopping with the fish confined like that you may not realize how long it is before you give that fish relief.  If the store water got "old" in that time now you're really changing the parameters of the water.  If the fish is run down enough, maybe he can't take it.

      Just a thought.

      Joe T
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56714 From: Larry Blanchard Date: 4/18/2015
      Subject: Re: goldfish problem - help needed
      On 04/18/2015 11:32 AM, joe t jett07002@... [AquaticLife] wrote:
      > As an aside, Larry, a little something that it seems no one thought
      > of.............we are talking about a "big" fish that both consumes
      > and poops a lot. Gold fish foul water fast! How big a bag -or
      > container- does the pet store give you, and maybe more important, how
      > long did this fish have to stay in this confine before you got home
      > and started to acclimate him to the water.

      They pet store does add oxygen to the water and I make it home in 10-15
      minutes. I put the fish, with the store water, in a small bucket with
      an airstone and gradually add tank water a little at a time every 15
      minutes or so till the fish is in mostly tank water. Then I net it and
      put it in the tank, throwing away the mixed water to avoid any
      waterborne pests.

      I've also tried the "float the bag in the tank" method, but the end
      result was the same. And I don't think it's as good as the other method.

      I appreciate everything folks have suggested but I think I've exhausted
      possible causes except for the one I mentioned in an earlier post, i.e.
      there's some strange chemical in the water that the plants in the one
      tank get rid of. I'm going to replace the substrate with EcoComplete,
      plant the tank and let the plants grow. When it starts to look like a
      jungle in there I'll add one goldfish. If it still dies I'll add a
      heater and go tropical. If that doesn't work I'll accept my wife's idea
      - my office is hexed :-).

      For anyone just entering this discussion:

      I've switched tanks.
      I've switched substrate.
      I've switched suppliers.
      I've bought expensive fish and cheap feeders.
      I've switched filters.
      I've tested everything that can be tested with API test kits.
      I've used water out of a healthy tropical tank.
      I've doubled up on the water conditioner.

      So for now I think we've all run out of ideas. One planted tank coming
      up - as soon as my fish budget recovers. I'll post results in the
      future but don't hold your breath.

      --
      Where have all the flowers gone? Pete Seeger 1919-2014
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56715 From: Larry Blanchard Date: 4/18/2015
      Subject: Re: goldfish problem - help needed
      On 04/18/2015 11:32 AM, joe t jett07002@... [AquaticLife] wrote:
      > Well I didn't expect Larry to know *but it sure scares the hell out of
      > me when the water company people don't know.*

      As to that, I was talking to the one who answered the phone. I've
      talked to their chemist before, and he's always been knowledgeable but
      didn't ask for him this time.

      --
      Where have all the flowers gone? Pete Seeger 1919-2014
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56716 From: Larry Blanchard Date: 4/19/2015
      Subject: Re: goldfish problem - help needed
      On 04/18/2015 10:59 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] wrote:
      > I haven't specifically selected anything. Actually, I wasn't even
      > aware that my messages came through with bars and little boxes in the
      > corners. I have no idea where the "=20"s at the ends of the lines
      > came from. Maybe another member can indicate if these messages look
      > the same to them or not. I haven't done anything to change my
      > messages. What's even stranger is that you didn't receive it like
      > that in a subsequent message, as per your following email.
      Yahoo has been known to do strange things before :-).

      --
      Where have all the flowers gone? Pete Seeger 1919-2014
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56717 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 4/25/2015
      Subject: Petting Blood Parrot
      Hi Everyone,

        For those of you not on Facebook have a look at this amazing video:
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0INzbh587o

        John<o)))<
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56718 From: Donna Ransome Date: 4/25/2015
      Subject: Advice for Showing Fish

      A fellow fish enthusiast from another forum was asking about showing, and I thought of Ray.

       

      I gave him the info and he will join/ask.

       

      Thanks!

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56719 From: sevenspringss Date: 4/25/2015
      Subject: Re: Advice for Showing Fish
      AOL Email
      Hi Donna,
       
      Okay, I'll watch for this hobbyist to join and ask about showing fish.  That's a good topic to bring up here as I don't ever recall that anyone ever asked about it.  It never happened to be discussed.  BTW, Big Summer auction -- ECC - June 27, just in case you're looking to add something Rift Lake.  
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 4/25/2015 7:12:08 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      A fellow fish enthusiast from another forum was asking about showing, and I thought of Ray.

      I gave him the info and he will join/ask.

      Thanks!

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56720 From: Donna Ransome Date: 4/25/2015
      Subject: Re: Advice for Showing Fish
      Yes sometimes I donate fish. Or pick up pre-purchased fish. Always adding Ray!



      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: Saturday, April 25, 2015 7:55 PM
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Advice for Showing Fish






      Hi Donna,



      Okay, I'll watch for this hobbyist to join and ask about showing fish. That's a good topic to bring up here as I don't ever recall that anyone ever asked about it. It never happened to be discussed. BTW, Big Summer auction -- ECC - June 27, just in case you're looking to add something Rift Lake.



      Ray





      In a message dated 4/25/2015 7:12:08 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:



      A fellow fish enthusiast from another forum was asking about showing, and I thought of Ray.

      I gave him the info and he will join/ask.

      Thanks!





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56721 From: jett07002 Date: 4/26/2015
      Subject: Re: Advice for Showing Fish

      Hi, Everybody.


      Thanks, Donna, that should make a real interesting conversation.   "Showing Fish."


      I have been to a few fish shows but never really gave much thought to what you had to do to be in one (showing the fish that is  LOL)  or preparing to have one where you would invite guests.


      Ray, there's a great instructional topic that I, personally, would enjoy.   I am sure anyone else in the group that's really into the hobby would enjoy it, also.


      Joe T

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56722 From: Harry Leverett Date: 4/26/2015
      Subject: Re: Advice for Showing Fish
      I think it would be a great topic too. My wife is wanting to show guppies, and we really don’t have a clue where to start.
      Harry
      On Apr 26, 2015, at 8:41 AM, jett07002@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


      Hi, Everybody.


      Thanks, Donna, that should make a real interesting conversation.   "Showing Fish."


      I have been to a few fish shows but never really gave much thought to what you had to do to be in one (showing the fish that is  LOL)  or preparing to have one where you would invite guests.


      Ray, there's a great instructional topic that I, personally, would enjoy.   I am sure anyone else in the group that's really into the hobby would enjoy it, also.


      Joe T



      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56723 From: sevenspringss Date: 4/26/2015
      Subject: Re: Advice for Showing Fish
      AOL Email
      Hi Harry and Joe T,
       
      I was planning to wait until seeing that this fellow from another forum, whom Donna mentioned, had joined so that he would receive my reply as a Yahoogroup email.  If I post something now, since he hasn't yet joined, he'll have to go to the archives to retrieve it.  Not knowing when (or if) he's going to join, I'll include something here but I'll make it short.  You guys can ask any question that might occur to you, which I may miss covering.
       
      For starters, some of this depends on the size of the fish being entered.  Some aquarium clubs supply small tanks up to about 2 gallons for small livebearers such as Guppies, Platies and Swordtails, but large Sailfin Mollies may require your bringing your own 5 gallon tank.  The 2 gallon club-proved tanks -- IF the club you're going to provides them -- will also accommodate Tetras (but not necessarily all other Characins, like Silver Dollars), smaller Barbs, Killifish, etc.  For any larger fish, you will need to bring your own tank as I know of no club that supplies larger tank.  They may require a certain size tank for you to bring for certain fish classes to keep them uniform, but may allow some exception with prior notification from you.  While they'll have racks to hold rows of tanks up to 10 gallons and perhaps up to 20 gallons, anything larger you're planning to bring will require your bring a stand too.
       
      These clubs usually supply air via a large air compressor, a system of PVC piping, valves and air line.  They sometimes also supply air stones but it's always best to bring your own in case they run short.  Most often, filters of any kind are not allowed.  Then too, not all clubs provide air for smaller tanks or for certain classes such as Bettas, which don't need it.
       
      Every show I've ever entered has always supplied water that's been conditioned and allowed to reach room temperature.  This is fine if you know that the water parameters of this water are close to you tank water, but as this is most often not known, its ALWAYS BEST to bring your own water.  I can't stress this enough, as this prevents much stress that ordinarily comes with putting a fish in different water parameters, and you'll have no time to acclimate them.  I use 5 gallon plastic water cooler jugs for transporting my water. 
       
      As show fish are judged by a number of criteria, including physical condition, you want to avoid accidentally ripping the fins and knocking off scales when you capture the fish.  For this, you want to avoid netting the fish if at all possible, but instead, lower a fish bag into the water, spreading it open, and "guide" the fish into it with a net.  As soon as the fish is safely in the bag, immediately turn the bag upright as you close it at this same time.  As the bag will now be completely filled with water, don't even try to lift it out of the tank.  Taking care that you don't let the fish out, release the major portion of the water back into the tank and leave the bag about 1/3 full of water with the fish.  Obviously, the bag must be of the right size for the fish -- not too large and not too small.  ALWAYS use double bags before even starting this (one bag inside of the other).  This helps prevent leakage in case the inner bag develops a leak enroute to the show.  For most fish, a 2 mil thick bag will suffice.  For Cichlids and larger catfish, at least a 3 mil thick bag is required and even then, they'll often put their spines through it.  You'll need to watch for this possibility.
       
      Use a styrofoam fish box to transport the fish in, especially in colder (or even cooler) weather.  Always bring some kind of a top for your tank, if you're bringing your own tank.  A piece of 1/8" thick plastic is good.  Full hoods aren't accepted for this.  If showing Discus, bring your own heater. 
       
      If you're experienced enough to not damage a fish's fins -- and even the most experienced of us are still taking a chance by using a net --  you may try very slowly guiding the fish with one net towards a motionless net, which will be the one that you capture it with.  Without any delay, lift the fish from the tank and submerged the fish -- net and all -- into the waiting bag of water -- which is propped up in a cushioned container.  Don't just dropped the fish out of the net, into the bag, as this is another opportunity for the fins to rip doing it this way.  Even then, all's it takes is for the fish to struggle in the net a bit, to rip it's own fins; it's a gamble capturing the fish this way, but can be done with care and speed (speed -- once out of the water and going into the bag -- not speed in netting the fish as that needs to be done slowly so as not to spook the fish). 
       
      Can't think of anything more at the moment, but feel free to ask any question on anything I may have missed.  Obviously too, the water you bring -- including the water in the fish's bag, must be crystal clear.  When you set the fish up in the show tank at the show, place the fish -- bag and all -- still tied, in the tank.  Then, add the amount of water to this tank to the proper level without yet opening the bag.  Once the tank is filled, only then you can untie the bag and release the fish.  This eliminates the chance of the fish being buffeted around.  Secure the cover on the tank ASAP, right after seeing to the air supply.  Smaller fish won't need the cover "secured" as they're too small to dislodge it, but larger fish definitely need a secured cover to prevent their jumping.  Duct tape is as good as any to hold the plastic lid on to the tank.  Even the 2 gallon tanks that some clubs supply may not always have covers.  In that case, you can use Saran wrap.  One last thing for now -- before you even start, if your using your own tank, be sure it's as clean as you can get it both inside and outside.  You don't want to clean the tank at the show after it's all set up.     
       
      Ray        
            
       
      In a message dated 4/26/2015 9:41:09 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hi, Everybody.


      Thanks, Donna, that should make a real interesting conversation.   "Showing Fish."


      I have been to a few fish shows but never really gave much thought to what you had to do to be in one (showing the fish that is  LOL)  or preparing to have one where you would invite guests.


      Ray, there's a great instructional topic that I, personally, would enjoy.   I am sure anyone else in the group that's really into the hobby would enjoy it, also.


      Joe T

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56724 From: pamandress23 Date: 4/26/2015
      Subject: Re: Advice for Showing Fish
      I have only shown twice, so no expert, but also READ the show rules. Some shows require a solid color background on the tank. Also as mentioned when showing discus bring your heater and a spare! Mine broke in the tank and luckily someone had an extra one. Don't forget to bring extra bags to re-bag your fish to go home and a net if needed. Cleaning supplies to wipe down the tank after getting fish settled in the tank. You will splash water or someone near you will. The tank needs to be clear for the judge to see your fish. A flashlight is sometimes used to look at your fish, so if they spook easily you may want to do some training with your fish.
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56725 From: Angela Cancilla Herschel Date: 4/29/2015
      Subject: Diver Helps Puffer Fish
      Diver Helps Friendly Puffer Fish 

      [http://youtu.be/14ayCa7EI6M]


      Ciao, Angela Cancilla Herschel, CPBC 
      Being kind is more important ..than being important. ~

      California Wildlife Center,volunteer wildlife warrior ~
      www.cawildlife.org

      sent from my iPhone 
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56726 From: David Davis Date: 4/30/2015
      Subject: Re: Diver Helps Puffer Fish
      Angela, as a Salt Water aquarium owner this was a very cool video!

      David Davis
      gooddad23@...


      -----Original Message-----
      From: Angela Cancilla Herschel angelasfeathers@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
      To: Angela Cancilla Herschel <angelasfeathers@...>
      Sent: Wed, Apr 29, 2015 5:40 pm
      Subject: [AquaticLife] Diver Helps Puffer Fish

       
      Diver Helps Friendly Puffer Fish 

      [ http://youtu.be/14ayCa7EI6M]


      Ciao, Angela Cancilla Herschel, CPBC 
      Being kind is more important ..than being important. ~

      California Wildlife Center,volunteer wildlife warrior ~
      www.cawildlife.org

      sent from my iPhone 
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56727 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 4/30/2015
      Subject: Re: Diver Helps Puffer Fish
      It seems the fish knows it is being helped & doesn't struggle-great video thanks for posting.

        John<o)))<

      On 30 April 2015 at 14:59, David Davis gooddad23@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      Angela, as a Salt Water aquarium owner this was a very cool video!

      David Davis
      gooddad23@...


      -----Original Message-----
      From: Angela Cancilla Herschel angelasfeathers@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
      To: Angela Cancilla Herschel <angelasfeathers@...>
      Sent: Wed, Apr 29, 2015 5:40 pm
      Subject: [AquaticLife] Diver Helps Puffer Fish

       
      Diver Helps Friendly Puffer Fish 

      [ http://youtu.be/14ayCa7EI6M]


      Ciao, Angela Cancilla Herschel, CPBC 
      Being kind is more important ..than being important. ~

      California Wildlife Center,volunteer wildlife warrior ~
      www.cawildlife.org

      sent from my iPhone 


      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56728 From: Andy Mills Date: 5/12/2015
      Subject: Filopaludina snails
      Hi, my friend and I just got 3 of these each. In the advert they were
      just described as rare Filopaludina snails, similar to the more commonly
      available zebra snail. I've only had mine a couple of hours so haven't
      had much chance to observe them, but they're a good bit bigger than any
      zebra snail I've ever had or seen. My friend saw one of hers peep out
      of the shell and then go back again, she said it looked a bit
      yellow/gold but couldn't really see it very well. I don't seem to be
      able to find that much information about them, probably doesn't help
      because I don't know exactly what species they are, just that they're
      Filopaludina snails. Does anyone know anything about this family of
      snails, has anyone ever kept them and how easy were they? I've had
      various different types of snails over the years, some have been much
      easier to keep alive than others, one of the biggest successes I've had
      in the past couple of years is having a good breeding population of
      yellow rabbit snails going. I started with just 2 and was lucky enough
      that they were a male and female, I understand rabbit snails are not
      like other smaller snails and do have separate sexes. Since then
      they've bred regularly and we often see babies climbing around the tank.
      They're quite slow growing for a snail so it's interesting to watch
      them gradually get bigger. Anyway, just wondering if anyone knows
      anything about these new snails.
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56729 From: Andy Mills Date: 5/16/2015
      Subject: Filopaludina snails
      Have not yet received any replies to this so am re-posting. As an
      update to the original post below, the new snails settled in really
      quickly and now spend most of their time climbing around on the glass of
      the tank with occasional trips around the bottom. Size wise they seem
      somewhere between a zebra snail and an apple snail, they move fairly
      slowly more like a zebra snail. For a snail they do seem relatively
      active and spend a lot of time moving around, allbeit very slowly. Have
      again tried looking for information on them but most of the sites either
      give very little information or are foreign sites which I can't read.
      What I'd really like to know is what their breeding habits are likely to
      be, i.e. do they have separate sexes like apple and rabbit snails -
      guessing they probably do as most of the larger snails seem to unlike
      the smaller ones such as trumpets and ramshorns, are they egg layers or
      live bearers, if egg layers are these laid underwater or above water
      like an apple snail, will the eggs hatch in freshwater (I know zebras
      and similar species need brackish water to breed).


      Hi, my friend and I just got 3 of these each. In the advert they were
      just described as rare Filopaludina snails, similar to the more commonly
      available zebra snail. I've only had mine a couple of hours so haven't
      had much chance to observe them, but they're a good bit bigger than any
      zebra snail I've ever had or seen. My friend saw one of hers peep out
      of the shell and then go back again, she said it looked a bit
      yellow/gold but couldn't really see it very well. I don't seem to be
      able to find that much information about them, probably doesn't help
      because I don't know exactly what species they are, just that they're
      Filopaludina snails. Does anyone know anything about this family of
      snails, has anyone ever kept them and how easy were they? I've had
      various different types of snails over the years, some have been much
      easier to keep alive than others, one of the biggest successes I've had
      in the past couple of years is having a good breeding population of
      yellow rabbit snails going. I started with just 2 and was lucky enough
      that they were a male and female, I understand rabbit snails are not
      like other smaller snails and do have separate sexes. Since then
      they've bred regularly and we often see babies climbing around the tank.
      They're quite slow growing for a snail so it's interesting to watch
      them gradually get bigger. Anyway, just wondering if anyone knows
      anything about these new snails.
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56730 From: Peg Yruegas Date: 5/16/2015
      Subject: Re: Filopaludina snails
      Andy, by chance are you from Nashville?

      On Saturday, May 16, 2015, Andy Mills andy.mills@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      Have not yet received any replies to this so am re-posting. As an
      update to the original post below, the new snails settled in really
      quickly and now spend most of their time climbing around on the glass of
      the tank with occasional trips around the bottom. Size wise they seem
      somewhere between a zebra snail and an apple snail, they move fairly
      slowly more like a zebra snail. For a snail they do seem relatively
      active and spend a lot of time moving around, allbeit very slowly. Have
      again tried looking for information on them but most of the sites either
      give very little information or are foreign sites which I can't read.
      What I'd really like to know is what their breeding habits are likely to
      be, i.e. do they have separate sexes like apple and rabbit snails -
      guessing they probably do as most of the larger snails seem to unlike
      the smaller ones such as trumpets and ramshorns, are they egg layers or
      live bearers, if egg layers are these laid underwater or above water
      like an apple snail, will the eggs hatch in freshwater (I know zebras
      and similar species need brackish water to breed).

      Hi, my friend and I just got 3 of these each. In the advert they were
      just described as rare Filopaludina snails, similar to the more commonly
      available zebra snail. I've only had mine a couple of hours so haven't
      had much chance to observe them, but they're a good bit bigger than any
      zebra snail I've ever had or seen. My friend saw one of hers peep out
      of the shell and then go back again, she said it looked a bit
      yellow/gold but couldn't really see it very well. I don't seem to be
      able to find that much information about them, probably doesn't help
      because I don't know exactly what species they are, just that they're
      Filopaludina snails. Does anyone know anything about this family of
      snails, has anyone ever kept them and how easy were they? I've had
      various different types of snails over the years, some have been much
      easier to keep alive than others, one of the biggest successes I've had
      in the past couple of years is having a good breeding population of
      yellow rabbit snails going. I started with just 2 and was lucky enough
      that they were a male and female, I understand rabbit snails are not
      like other smaller snails and do have separate sexes. Since then
      they've bred regularly and we often see babies climbing around the tank.
      They're quite slow growing for a snail so it's interesting to watch
      them gradually get bigger. Anyway, just wondering if anyone knows
      anything about these new snails.



      --
      Peg
      peg@...
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56731 From: Harry Perry Date: 5/16/2015
      Subject: Re: Filopaludina snails
      No one is responding because no one can find anything.Your it. Just keep a close eye on them and let us know how they are doing. May be you should document your observations. You could end up the authority on them.

      Harry
      --------------------------------------------
      On Sat, 5/16/15, Peg Yruegas peg@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Filopaludina snails
      To: "AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
      Date: Saturday, May 16, 2015, 10:28 PM


       









      Andy, by chance are you from Nashville?

      On Saturday, May 16, 2015,
      Andy Mills andy.mills@...
      [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
      wrote:















       









      Have not yet received any replies to this so am
      re-posting. As an

      update to the original post below, the new snails settled in
      really

      quickly and now spend most of their time climbing around on
      the glass of

      the tank with occasional trips around the bottom. Size wise
      they seem

      somewhere between a zebra snail and an apple snail, they
      move fairly

      slowly more like a zebra snail. For a snail they do seem
      relatively

      active and spend a lot of time moving around, allbeit very
      slowly. Have

      again tried looking for information on them but most of the
      sites either

      give very little information or are foreign sites which I
      can't read.

      What I'd really like to know is what their breeding
      habits are likely to

      be, i.e. do they have separate sexes like apple and rabbit
      snails -

      guessing they probably do as most of the larger snails seem
      to unlike

      the smaller ones such as trumpets and ramshorns, are they
      egg layers or

      live bearers, if egg layers are these laid underwater or
      above water

      like an apple snail, will the eggs hatch in freshwater (I
      know zebras

      and similar species need brackish water to breed).



      Hi, my friend and I just got 3 of these each. In the advert
      they were

      just described as rare Filopaludina snails, similar to the
      more commonly

      available zebra snail. I've only had mine a couple of
      hours so haven't

      had much chance to observe them, but they're a good bit
      bigger than any

      zebra snail I've ever had or seen. My friend saw one of
      hers peep out

      of the shell and then go back again, she said it looked a
      bit

      yellow/gold but couldn't really see it very well. I
      don't seem to be

      able to find that much information about them, probably
      doesn't help

      because I don't know exactly what species they are, just
      that they're

      Filopaludina snails. Does anyone know anything about this
      family of

      snails, has anyone ever kept them and how easy were they?
      I've had

      various different types of snails over the years, some have
      been much

      easier to keep alive than others, one of the biggest
      successes I've had

      in the past couple of years is having a good breeding
      population of

      yellow rabbit snails going. I started with just 2 and was
      lucky enough

      that they were a male and female, I understand rabbit snails
      are not

      like other smaller snails and do have separate sexes. Since
      then

      they've bred regularly and we often see babies climbing
      around the tank.

      They're quite slow growing for a snail so it's
      interesting to watch

      them gradually get bigger. Anyway, just wondering if anyone
      knows

      anything about these new snails.























      --
      Peg
      peg@...
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56732 From: Andy Mills Date: 5/17/2015
      Subject: Re: Filopaludina snails
      Afraid not, am from the UK.



      On 17/05/2015 03:28, Peg Yruegas peg@... [AquaticLife] wrote:
      > Andy, by chance are you from Nashville?
      >
      > On Saturday, May 16, 2015, Andy Mills andy.mills@...
      > [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
      >
      >>
      >>
      >> Have not yet received any replies to this so am re-posting. As an
      >> update to the original post below, the new snails settled in really
      >> quickly and now spend most of their time climbing around on the glass of
      >> the tank with occasional trips around the bottom. Size wise they seem
      >> somewhere between a zebra snail and an apple snail, they move fairly
      >> slowly more like a zebra snail. For a snail they do seem relatively
      >> active and spend a lot of time moving around, allbeit very slowly. Have
      >> again tried looking for information on them but most of the sites either
      >> give very little information or are foreign sites which I can't read.
      >> What I'd really like to know is what their breeding habits are likely to
      >> be, i.e. do they have separate sexes like apple and rabbit snails -
      >> guessing they probably do as most of the larger snails seem to unlike
      >> the smaller ones such as trumpets and ramshorns, are they egg layers or
      >> live bearers, if egg layers are these laid underwater or above water
      >> like an apple snail, will the eggs hatch in freshwater (I know zebras
      >> and similar species need brackish water to breed).
      >>
      >> Hi, my friend and I just got 3 of these each. In the advert they were
      >> just described as rare Filopaludina snails, similar to the more commonly
      >> available zebra snail. I've only had mine a couple of hours so haven't
      >> had much chance to observe them, but they're a good bit bigger than any
      >> zebra snail I've ever had or seen. My friend saw one of hers peep out
      >> of the shell and then go back again, she said it looked a bit
      >> yellow/gold but couldn't really see it very well. I don't seem to be
      >> able to find that much information about them, probably doesn't help
      >> because I don't know exactly what species they are, just that they're
      >> Filopaludina snails. Does anyone know anything about this family of
      >> snails, has anyone ever kept them and how easy were they? I've had
      >> various different types of snails over the years, some have been much
      >> easier to keep alive than others, one of the biggest successes I've had
      >> in the past couple of years is having a good breeding population of
      >> yellow rabbit snails going. I started with just 2 and was lucky enough
      >> that they were a male and female, I understand rabbit snails are not
      >> like other smaller snails and do have separate sexes. Since then
      >> they've bred regularly and we often see babies climbing around the tank.
      >> They're quite slow growing for a snail so it's interesting to watch
      >> them gradually get bigger. Anyway, just wondering if anyone knows
      >> anything about these new snails.
      >>
      >>
      >
      >
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56733 From: Enid Rodriguez Date: 5/17/2015
      Subject: Re: Filopaludina snails
      I have looked and looked for information on these snails. The most I found was on Wikipedia. Most of the other info was on how it's an intermediate host for a parasite, so from this scant info I believe it's a freshwater snail. Best I can tell you is to keep a journal and observe them. Always cool to learn a new (to us) species).
      Enid


      From: "Peg Yruegas peg@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
      To: "AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Saturday, May 16, 2015 9:28 PM
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Filopaludina snails

       
      Andy, by chance are you from Nashville?

      On Saturday, May 16, 2015, Andy Mills andy.mills@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       
      Have not yet received any replies to this so am re-posting. As an
      update to the original post below, the new snails settled in really
      quickly and now spend most of their time climbing around on the glass of
      the tank with occasional trips around the bottom. Size wise they seem
      somewhere between a zebra snail and an apple snail, they move fairly
      slowly more like a zebra snail. For a snail they do seem relatively
      active and spend a lot of time moving around, allbeit very slowly. Have
      again tried looking for information on them but most of the sites either
      give very little information or are foreign sites which I can't read.
      What I'd really like to know is what their breeding habits are likely to
      be, i.e. do they have separate sexes like apple and rabbit snails -
      guessing they probably do as most of the larger snails seem to unlike
      the smaller ones such as trumpets and ramshorns, are they egg layers or
      live bearers, if egg layers are these laid underwater or above water
      like an apple snail, will the eggs hatch in freshwater (I know zebras
      and similar species need brackish water to breed).

      Hi, my friend and I just got 3 of these each. In the advert they were
      just described as rare Filopaludina snails, similar to the more commonly
      available zebra snail. I've only had mine a couple of hours so haven't
      had much chance to observe them, but they're a good bit bigger than any
      zebra snail I've ever had or seen. My friend saw one of hers peep out
      of the shell and then go back again, she said it looked a bit
      yellow/gold but couldn't really see it very well. I don't seem to be
      able to find that much information about them, probably doesn't help
      because I don't know exactly what species they are, just that they're
      Filopaludina snails. Does anyone know anything about this family of
      snails, has anyone ever kept them and how easy were they? I've had
      various different types of snails over the years, some have been much
      easier to keep alive than others, one of the biggest successes I've had
      in the past couple of years is having a good breeding population of
      yellow rabbit snails going. I started with just 2 and was lucky enough
      that they were a male and female, I understand rabbit snails are not
      like other smaller snails and do have separate sexes. Since then
      they've bred regularly and we often see babies climbing around the tank.
      They're quite slow growing for a snail so it's interesting to watch
      them gradually get bigger. Anyway, just wondering if anyone knows
      anything about these new snails.


      --
      Peg
      peg@...


      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56734 From: deenerzz Date: 5/17/2015
      Subject: Re: Filopaludina snails
      http://www.marinespecies.org/aphia.php?p=taxdetails&id=827348

      http://www.iucnredlist.org/details/184851/0

      http://www.iucnredlist.org/details/184846/0

      http://www.gbif.org/species/4304901

      http://www.bagniliggia.it/WMSD/HtmFamily/VIVIPARIDAEN.htm

      http://www.inaturalist.org/taxa/150444-Filopaludina-martensi

      -----Original Message-----
      From: Enid Rodriguez gwydryn2000@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
      To: AquaticLife <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Sun, May 17, 2015 1:07 pm
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Filopaludina snails

       
      I have looked and looked for information on these snails. The most I found was on Wikipedia. Most of the other info was on how it's an intermediate host for a parasite, so from this scant info I believe it's a freshwater snail. Best I can tell you is to keep a journal and observe them. Always cool to learn a new (to us) species).
      Enid


      From: "Peg Yruegas peg@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
      To: "AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Saturday, May 16, 2015 9:28 PM
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Filopaludina snails

       
      Andy, by chance are you from Nashville?

      On Saturday, May 16, 2015, Andy Mills andy.mills@... [AquaticLife] < AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       
      Have not yet received any replies to this so am re-posting. As an
      update to the original post below, the new snails settled in really
      quickly and now spend most of their time climbing around on the glass of
      the tank with occasional trips around the bottom. Size wise they seem
      somewhere between a zebra snail and an apple snail, they move fairly
      slowly more like a zebra snail. For a snail they do seem relatively
      active and spend a lot of time moving around, allbeit very slowly. Have
      again tried looking for information on them but most of the sites either
      give very little information or are foreign sites which I can't read.
      What I'd really like to know is what their breeding habits are likely to
      be, i.e. do they have separate sexes like apple and rabbit snails -
      guessing they probably do as most of the larger snails seem to unlike
      the smaller ones such as trumpets and ramshorns, are they egg layers or
      live bearers, if egg layers are these laid underwater or above water
      like an apple snail, will the eggs hatch in freshwater (I know zebras
      and similar species need brackish water to breed).

      Hi, my friend and I just got 3 of these each. In the advert they were
      just described as rare Filopaludina snails, similar to the more commonly
      available zebra snail. I've only had mine a couple of hours so haven't
      had much chance to observe them, but they're a good bit bigger than any
      zebra snail I've ever had or seen. My friend saw one of hers peep out
      of the shell and then go back again, she said it looked a bit
      yellow/gold but couldn't really see it very well. I don't seem to be
      able to find that much information about them, probably doesn't help
      because I don't know exactly what species they are, just that they're
      Filopaludina snails. Does anyone know anything about this family of
      snails, has anyone ever kept them and how easy were they? I've had
      various different types of snails over the years, some have been much
      easier to keep alive than others, one of the biggest successes I've had
      in the past couple of years is having a good breeding population of
      yellow rabbit snails going. I started with just 2 and was lucky enough
      that they were a male and female, I understand rabbit snails are not
      like other smaller snails and do have separate sexes. Since then
      they've bred regularly and we often see babies climbing around the tank.
      They're quite slow growing for a snail so it's interesting to watch
      them gradually get bigger. Anyway, just wondering if anyone knows
      anything about these new snails.


      --
      Peg
      peg@...


      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56735 From: amejia1976 Date: 5/18/2015
      Subject: 65 Gallon Aquarium in Second Floor

      Hey all. Thought I'd check before I end up regretting this.

      The link above is to a message from 2012 about a member asking feedback on placing a 125us gal tank in a second floor.

      I am in a similar predicament. I have moved to a 2nd floor apartment. Now that I am all settled I am planing to move my 65gal US into the apartment. The links on that message are pretty straight forward.

      So, does anyone of our US members has a 75gl or less tank in a second floor?

      Based on my calculations the tank will weight about 827 pounds.

      65US
      36 Long
      18 Deep
      25 Height
      Empty Tank is about 87lbs

      65 gallons of water is about 545lbs

      Wood Stand about 45lbs. Stand runs flat on the ground; not on lefts which will distribute weight over a larger area.

      Gravel/Mopany about 100lbs

      Sump with 5gl of water, plumbing and other accessories about 50lbs

      Total weight comes to 827lbs.

      Thanks 

      Alex
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56736 From: Trevor Holyoak Date: 5/18/2015
      Subject: Re: 65 Gallon Aquarium in Second Floor
      I currently have an 80 gallon tank with a wood stand and wood canopy on a 2nd story floor of a house. This replaced a 150 gallon that was in the same spot until it sprung a leak and flooded the basement - which may be more of a risk than the weight that you appear to be worried about.

      When I had the 150 gal. tank in an apartment, they actually put me in the bottom floor to avoid both potential problems.

      - Trevor

      Monday, May 18, 2015 3:50 PM

      Hey all. Thought I'd check before I end up regretting this.

      The link above is to a message from 2012 about a member asking feedback on placing a 125us gal tank in a second floor.

      I am in a similar predicament. I have moved to a 2nd floor apartment. Now that I am all settled I am planing to move my 65gal US into the apartment. The links on that message are pretty straight forward.

      So, does anyone of our US members has a 75gl or less tank in a second floor?

      Based on my calculations the tank will weight about 827 pounds.

      65US
      36 Long
      18 Deep
      25 Height
      Empty Tank is about 87lbs

      65 gallons of water is about 545lbs

      Wood Stand about 45lbs. Stand runs flat on the ground; not on lefts which will distribute weight over a larger area.

      Gravel/Mopany about 100lbs

      Sump with 5gl of water, plumbing and other accessories about 50lbs

      Total weight comes to 827lbs.

      Thanks 

      Alex

      --
      LDS Podcasts Free for Android, Kindle Fire, Nook tablets, and BlackBerry
      http://www.holyoak.com/ldspodcasts

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56737 From: sevenspringss Date: 5/18/2015
      Subject: Re: 65 Gallon Aquarium in Second Floor
      AOL Email
      While not having any such tank myself, on the second floor, I would add that yours should be positioned along a load-bearing wall.  Secondly, if at all possible, try to find out which direction the beams that support the floor go in.  Preferably, the tank should be situated against a wall that has the floor beams perpendicular to it for maximum support.
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 5/18/2015 5:50:44 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       


      Hey all. Thought I'd check before I end up regretting this.

      The link above is to a message from 2012 about a member asking feedback on placing a 125us gal tank in a second floor.

      I am in a similar predicament. I have moved to a 2nd floor apartment. Now that I am all settled I am planing to move my 65gal US into the apartment. The links on that message are pretty straight forward.

      So, does anyone of our US members has a 75gl or less tank in a second floor?

      Based on my calculations the tank will weight about 827 pounds.

      65US
      36 Long
      18 Deep
      25 Height
      Empty Tank is about 87lbs

      65 gallons of water is about 545lbs

      Wood Stand about 45lbs. Stand runs flat on the ground; not on lefts which will distribute weight over a larger area.

      Gravel/Mopany about 100lbs

      Sump with 5gl of water, plumbing and other accessories about 50lbs

      Total weight comes to 827lbs.

      Thanks 

      Alex

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56738 From: Kevin Boyle Date: 5/18/2015
      Subject: Re: 65 Gallon Aquarium in Second Floor


      On 5/18/2015 6:15 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] wrote:
       

      While not having any such tank myself, on the second floor, I would add that yours should be positioned along a load-bearing wall.  Secondly, if at all possible, try to find out which direction the beams that support the floor go in.  Preferably, the tank should be situated against a wall that has the floor beams perpendicular to it for maximum support.
       
      Ray
       also insurance (if renting) might be a good idea, you never know
       
      In a message dated 5/18/2015 5:50:44 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       


      Hey all. Thought I'd check before I end up regretting this.

      The link above is to a message from 2012 about a member asking feedback on placing a 125us gal tank in a second floor.

      I am in a similar predicament. I have moved to a 2nd floor apartment. Now that I am all settled I am planing to move my 65gal US into the apartment. The links on that message are pretty straight forward.

      So, does anyone of our US members has a 75gl or less tank in a second floor?

      Based on my calculations the tank will weight about 827 pounds.

      65US
      36 Long
      18 Deep
      25 Height
      Empty Tank is about 87lbs

      65 gallons of water is about 545lbs

      Wood Stand about 45lbs. Stand runs flat on the ground; not on lefts which will distribute weight over a larger area.

      Gravel/Mopany about 100lbs

      Sump with 5gl of water, plumbing and other accessories about 50lbs

      Total weight comes to 827lbs.

      Thanks 

      Alex

      -- 
      "Never use a big word when a monosyllabic diminutive will suffice."
      
      
      If it turns out that we really are alone in the universe, doesn't it seem like an awful waste of space?"
      
      
      Stupidity is a lot like nuclear power; it can be used for good or evil but either way you wouldn't want to get any on you>"
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56739 From: Alex Mejia Date: 5/19/2015
      Subject: Re: 65 Gallon Aquarium in Second Floor
      Thanks Trevor 

      I am hoping apartments are built following the same building codes as homes...

      Alex



      Sent from my Sprint Samsung Galaxy® Note 4.


      -------- Original message --------
      From: "Trevor Holyoak trevor@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
      Date: 05/18/2015 5:53 PM (GMT-05:00)
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] 65 Gallon Aquarium in Second Floor

       

      I currently have an 80 gallon tank with a wood stand and wood canopy on a 2nd story floor of a house. This replaced a 150 gallon that was in the same spot until it sprung a leak and flooded the basement - which may be more of a risk than the weight that you appear to be worried about.

      When I had the 150 gal. tank in an apartment, they actually put me in the bottom floor to avoid both potential problems.

      - Trevor

      Monday, May 18, 2015 3:50 PM

      Hey all. Thought I'd check before I end up regretting this.

      The link above is to a message from 2012 about a member asking feedback on placing a 125us gal tank in a second floor.

      I am in a similar predicament. I have moved to a 2nd floor apartment. Now that I am all settled I am planing to move my 65gal US into the apartment. The links on that message are pretty straight forward.

      So, does anyone of our US members has a 75gl or less tank in a second floor?

      Based on my calculations the tank will weight about 827 pounds.

      65US
      36 Long
      18 Deep
      25 Height
      Empty Tank is about 87lbs

      65 gallons of water is about 545lbs

      Wood Stand about 45lbs. Stand runs flat on the ground; not on lefts which will distribute weight over a larger area.

      Gravel/Mopany about 100lbs

      Sump with 5gl of water, plumbing and other accessories about 50lbs

      Total weight comes to 827lbs.

      Thanks 

      Alex

      --
      LDS Podcasts Free for Android, Kindle Fire, Nook tablets, and BlackBerry
      http://www.holyoak.com/ldspodcasts

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56740 From: Alex Mejia Date: 5/19/2015
      Subject: Re: 65 Gallon Aquarium in Second Floor
      Thanks Ray

      I am hoping that all exterior walls are load bearing.

      Apt managers have no idea on directionallity of beams, joists or other support info. Heck, they dont even have anything showing weight tolerance. I am taking a guess and using the bathtubs positioning. Iam placing tank at same angle of tub and hopefully beams run perpendicular as you have suggested.

      Thanks

      Alex


      Sent from my Sprint Samsung Galaxy® Note 4.


      -------- Original message --------
      From: "sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
      Date: 05/18/2015 6:15 PM (GMT-05:00)
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] 65 Gallon Aquarium in Second Floor

       

      While not having any such tank myself, on the second floor, I would add that yours should be positioned along a load-bearing wall.  Secondly, if at all possible, try to find out which direction the beams that support the floor go in.  Preferably, the tank should be situated against a wall that has the floor beams perpendicular to it for maximum support.
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 5/18/2015 5:50:44 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       


      Hey all. Thought I'd check before I end up regretting this.

      The link above is to a message from 2012 about a member asking feedback on placing a 125us gal tank in a second floor.

      I am in a similar predicament. I have moved to a 2nd floor apartment. Now that I am all settled I am planing to move my 65gal US into the apartment. The links on that message are pretty straight forward.

      So, does anyone of our US members has a 75gl or less tank in a second floor?

      Based on my calculations the tank will weight about 827 pounds.

      65US
      36 Long
      18 Deep
      25 Height
      Empty Tank is about 87lbs

      65 gallons of water is about 545lbs

      Wood Stand about 45lbs. Stand runs flat on the ground; not on lefts which will distribute weight over a larger area.

      Gravel/Mopany about 100lbs

      Sump with 5gl of water, plumbing and other accessories about 50lbs

      Total weight comes to 827lbs.

      Thanks 

      Alex

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56741 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 5/19/2015
      Subject: Re: 65 Gallon Aquarium in Second Floor
      Hi Alex,

        I can only speak from my experience in the UK & have very little knowledge of US building design & construction [if indeed it differs any from the UK methods] but generally floorboards run at 90 degrees to the joists underneath them. Is it possible to lift just one of the floorboards-doesn't even have to be in the  same location as that intended fro your tank-just somewhere in the same room That way you would be able to verify the direction of the joists & also see how big they are in section plush what the spacing between them is. Position your tank so that it straddles the maximum number of joists & also if possible try to get them equi-distant ie the same distance in from both ends of your tank base rather than have them asymetrical.

        John<o)))<

      On 19 May 2015 at 14:55, Alex Mejia amejia1976@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      Thanks Ray

      I am hoping that all exterior walls are load bearing.

      Apt managers have no idea on directionallity of beams, joists or other support info. Heck, they dont even have anything showing weight tolerance. I am taking a guess and using the bathtubs positioning. Iam placing tank at same angle of tub and hopefully beams run perpendicular as you have suggested.

      Thanks

      Alex


      Sent from my Sprint Samsung Galaxy® Note 4.


      -------- Original message --------
      From: "sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
      Date: 05/18/2015 6:15 PM (GMT-05:00)
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] 65 Gallon Aquarium in Second Floor

       

      While not having any such tank myself, on the second floor, I would add that yours should be positioned along a load-bearing wall.  Secondly, if at all possible, try to find out which direction the beams that support the floor go in.  Preferably, the tank should be situated against a wall that has the floor beams perpendicular to it for maximum support.
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 5/18/2015 5:50:44 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       


      Hey all. Thought I'd check before I end up regretting this.

      The link above is to a message from 2012 about a member asking feedback on placing a 125us gal tank in a second floor.

      I am in a similar predicament. I have moved to a 2nd floor apartment. Now that I am all settled I am planing to move my 65gal US into the apartment. The links on that message are pretty straight forward.

      So, does anyone of our US members has a 75gl or less tank in a second floor?

      Based on my calculations the tank will weight about 827 pounds.

      65US
      36 Long
      18 Deep
      25 Height
      Empty Tank is about 87lbs

      65 gallons of water is about 545lbs

      Wood Stand about 45lbs. Stand runs flat on the ground; not on lefts which will distribute weight over a larger area.

      Gravel/Mopany about 100lbs

      Sump with 5gl of water, plumbing and other accessories about 50lbs

      Total weight comes to 827lbs.

      Thanks 

      Alex


      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56742 From: o1bigtenor Date: 5/19/2015
      Subject: Re: 65 Gallon Aquarium in Second Floor


      On Tue, May 19, 2015 at 9:47 AM, SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


      Hi Alex,

        I can only speak from my experience in the UK & have very little knowledge of US building design & construction [if indeed it differs any from the UK methods] but generally floorboards run at 90 degrees to the joists underneath them. Is it possible to lift just one of the floorboards-doesn't even have to be in the  same location as that intended fro your tank-just somewhere in the same room That way you would be able to verify the direction of the joists & also see how big they are in section plush what the spacing between them is. Position your tank so that it straddles the maximum number of joists & also if possible try to get them equi-distant ie the same distance in from both ends of your tank base rather than have them asymetrical.

        John<o)))<

      Whilst its good advice and the question is applicable things usually aren't that way in 'The Colonies'.

      Floorboards became a more than somewhat rare kind of thing here in the 60's when plywood became ubiquitous. As a product that is, mostly but not necessarily always 1.220 x 2.440 m or 4' x 8' it can be quite a bit more difficult to determine which is the direction of the floor joists. Plywood by its nature will assist in distributing the load rather well. The more modern use of OSB (oriented strand board) is purported to be better than plywood but it relies even more on glue than does plywood so time alone will tell. (Accelerated testing by engineers may be well and good but there just isn't any substitute for time!)

      Dee
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56743 From: Harry Leverett Date: 5/19/2015
      Subject: Re: 65 Gallon Aquarium in Second Floor
      Even with plywood the grain will be across the joist, otherwise it would cup between each joist over time. Your floor joist should be 2" x12" on 16" centers (Unless its a very old home) and will usually run the direction of the shortest span of the walls on the floor below. I wouldn't be to worried about the weight though. 
      Harry

      Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android


      From:"o1bigtenor o1bigtenor@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
      Date:Tue, May 19, 2015 at 11:12 AM
      Subject:Re: [AquaticLife] 65 Gallon Aquarium in Second Floor

       



      On Tue, May 19, 2015 at 9:47 AM, SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


      Hi Alex,

        I can only speak from my experience in the UK & have very little knowledge of US building design & construction [if indeed it differs any from the UK methods] but generally floorboards run at 90 degrees to the joists underneath them. Is it possible to lift just one of the floorboards-doesn't even have to be in the  same location as that intended fro your tank-just somewhere in the same room That way you would be able to verify the direction of the joists & also see how big they are in section plush what the spacing between them is. Position your tank so that it straddles the maximum number of joists & also if possible try to get them equi-distant ie the same distance in from both ends of your tank base rather than have them asymetrical.

        John<o)))<

      Whilst its good advice and the question is applicable things usually aren't that way in 'The Colonies'.

      Floorboards became a more than somewhat rare kind of thing here in the 60's when plywood became ubiquitous. As a product that is, mostly but not necessarily always 1.220 x 2.440 m or 4' x 8' it can be quite a bit more difficult to determine which is the direction of the floor joists. Plywood by its nature will assist in distributing the load rather well. The more modern use of OSB (oriented strand board) is purported to be better than plywood but it relies even more on glue than does plywood so time alone will tell. (Accelerated testing by engineers may be well and good but there just isn't any substitute for time!)

      Dee
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56744 From: Larry Blanchard Date: 5/19/2015
      Subject: Re: 65 Gallon Aquarium in Second Floor
      On 05/18/2015 02:50 PM, amejia1976@... [AquaticLife] wrote:
      > So, does anyone of our US members has a 75gl or less tank in a second
      > floor?
      >
      > Based on my calculations the tank will weight about 827 pounds.

      I haven't done it but ...

      That's roughly 180 pounds per square foot. Call the local building
      department and ask what the minimum loading per square foot is for
      apartment buildings. However, if you're in an old building the rules
      may not apply.

      Then do the usual - place it close to a wall and at right angles to the
      floor joists. Make sure the stand really does spread the weight equally
      - put a piece of 3/4" plywood under it if you're not sure.

      And for the sake of your downstairs neighbors, get a water alarm :-).

      --
      Where have all the flowers gone? Pete Seeger 1919-2014
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56745 From: Larry Blanchard Date: 5/19/2015
      Subject: Re: 65 Gallon Aquarium in Second Floor
      On 05/19/2015 08:00 AM, o1bigtenor o1bigtenor@... [AquaticLife]
      wrote:
      > The more modern use of OSB (oriented strand board) is purported to be
      > better than plywood but it relies even more on glue than does plywood
      > so time alone will tell. (Accelerated testing by engineers may be well
      > and good but there just isn't any substitute for time!)

      There are differing opinions, but as a woodworker, I agree with the
      following quote:

      "Both plywood and oriented strand board (OSB) are equal in strength and
      durability. This comes as a surprise to many consumers because OSB looks
      simply as if lots of pieces of wood were glued together. Building codes
      recognize both plywood and OSB to be alike in their properties and use
      the phrase "wood structural panel" to describe them.

      However, plywood subfloors are stiffer than OSB by about 10%. As a
      result, OSB floors are more likely to

      * squeak due to floor movement
      * cause hard floor surfaces to crack (such as tile)
      * result in soft, spongy floors"




      --
      Where have all the flowers gone? Pete Seeger 1919-2014
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56746 From: jett07002 Date: 5/20/2015
      Subject: Re: 65 Gallon Aquarium in Second Floor

      Unless this is an old, rundown building I would not worry about the 80 gallon tank.  80 gals at 8.4 # per gallon would be about 672 lbs + stand, etc.  Maybe about the weight of two larger residential refrigerators.


      Also, you could put cut two x fours across the length to support the feet and spread the load.


      No one can really answer this question without seeing the space and having some engineering knowledge.


      If it means a lot for you to have this tank, personally, I would take the chance and watch it for awhile.  If you notice any sift, no matter how slight, take the tank down.  But if it's a good floor I doubt that much weight would cause a problem.


      joe t

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56747 From: Bharath Tonse Date: 5/21/2015
      Subject: Re: 65 Gallon Aquarium in Second Floor
      i once visited a fish dealer here in mumbai in 1974 .. it was an old bldg was praying that it wouldnt collapse before i got out .. on the fourth floor the dealer had stocked up tanks with fish .. 48in by 18 by 18in three tier ....... the bldg still stands ....bharath.tonse@...--------------------------------------------
      On Wed, 20/5/15, jett07002@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] 65 Gallon Aquarium in Second Floor
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Wednesday, 20 May, 2015, 10:24 PM


       









      Unless this is an old, rundown building I
      would not worry about the 80 gallon tank.  80 gals at 8.4 #
      per gallon would be about 672 lbs + stand, etc.  Maybe
      about the weight of two larger residential
      refrigerators.
      Also, you could
      put cut two x fours across the length to support the feet
      and spread the load.
      No one
      can really answer this question without seeing the space
      and having some engineering knowledge.
      If it means a lot for you to have this
      tank, personally, I would take the chance and watch it for
      awhile.  If you notice any sift, no matter how slight, take
      the tank down.  But if it's a good floor I doubt that
      much weight would cause a problem.
      joe t










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      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56748 From: Andy Mills Date: 7/5/2015
      Subject: Does anyone here buy fish online?
      Hi, just wondering, has anyone here ever bought fish online and what
      were your experiences with it, did it work out well, were the fish
      healthy when they arrived, etc. Due to various family issues I don't
      get to go to that many fish shops any more. I've seen some angelfish I
      really like the sound of but something in me just doesn't feel
      comfortable with buying fish this way, being put in a box and maybe
      being in there for hours on end before they get here. I know as someone
      has told me that this is probably what happens to them when they get
      transported to the shops before we see them there but this just doesn't
      quite seem the same. Would very much like to hear what others
      feel/think about this.
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56749 From: bettijerseygirl Date: 7/5/2015
      Subject: Re: Does anyone here buy fish online?
      I have bought Golden Orfes  on line for my outdoor pond a few years back. They arrived in excellent condition, well boxed up in water bags which were packed tight in the box so that they did not roll around. Of course you have to plan to be home when the fish arrive as they should not be left at the mailbox in the heat or cold.

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Andy Mills andy.mills@... [AquaticLife]"
      Date: Sunday, July 5, 2015 2:46 pm
      Subject: [AquaticLife] Does anyone here buy fish online?
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com

      > Hi, just wondering, has anyone here ever bought fish online and
      > what
      > were your experiences with it, did it work out well, were the
      > fish
      > healthy when they arrived, etc. Due to various family issues I
      > don't
      > get to go to that many fish shops any more. I've seen some
      > angelfish I
      > really like the sound of but something in me just doesn't feel
      > comfortable with buying fish this way, being put in a box and
      > maybe
      > being in there for hours on end before they get here. I know as
      > someone
      > has told me that this is probably what happens to them when they
      > get
      > transported to the shops before we see them there but this just
      > doesn't
      > quite seem the same. Would very much like to hear what others
      > feel/think about this.
      >
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56750 From: Angela Cancilla Herschel Date: 7/5/2015
      Subject: 5 Incredible Fish Behaviors Show How Intelligent They Really Are
      Ciao, Angela Cancilla Herschel,  CPBC;
      California

      Member:  IAATE - IAABC

      Being Kind is more important ...than being important. ~
      California Wildlife Center, volunteer  ~

      www.cawildlife.org

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56751 From: Donna Ransome Date: 7/5/2015
      Subject: Re: Does anyone here buy fish online?
      I order almost all my fish online. 99% arrive alive and well. Maybe even 99.9%.



      More and more brick and mortar shops are closing doors.



      But I do it for selection and quality…no way an LFS could have 100 species of Africans in tanks daily.



      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: Sunday, July 5, 2015 2:46 PM
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [AquaticLife] Does anyone here buy fish online?





      Hi, just wondering, has anyone here ever bought fish online and what
      were your experiences with it, did it work out well, were the fish
      healthy when they arrived, etc. Due to various family issues I don't
      get to go to that many fish shops any more. I've seen some angelfish I
      really like the sound of but something in me just doesn't feel
      comfortable with buying fish this way, being put in a box and maybe
      being in there for hours on end before they get here. I know as someone
      has told me that this is probably what happens to them when they get
      transported to the shops before we see them there but this just doesn't
      quite seem the same. Would very much like to hear what others
      feel/think about this.





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56752 From: Donna Ransome Date: 7/5/2015
      Subject: Re: Does anyone here buy fish online?
      Also if you buy/sell fish at an auction they are in the bags just as long.



      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: Sunday, July 5, 2015 2:59 PM
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Does anyone here buy fish online?






      I have bought Golden Orfes on line for my outdoor pond a few years back.
      They arrived in excellent condition, well boxed up in water bags which were
      packed tight in the box so that they did not roll around. Of course you have
      to plan to be home when the fish arrive as they should not be left at the
      mailbox in the heat or cold.

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Andy Mills andy.mills@... [AquaticLife]"
      Date: Sunday, July 5, 2015 2:46 pm
      Subject: [AquaticLife] Does anyone here buy fish online?
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com

      > Hi, just wondering, has anyone here ever bought fish online and
      > what
      > were your experiences with it, did it work out well, were the
      > fish
      > healthy when they arrived, etc. Due to various family issues I
      > don't
      > get to go to that many fish shops any more. I've seen some
      > angelfish I
      > really like the sound of but something in me just doesn't feel
      > comfortable with buying fish this way, being put in a box and
      > maybe
      > being in there for hours on end before they get here. I know as
      > someone
      > has told me that this is probably what happens to them when they
      > get
      > transported to the shops before we see them there but this just
      > doesn't
      > quite seem the same. Would very much like to hear what others
      > feel/think about this.
      >





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56753 From: Larry Blanchard Date: 7/6/2015
      Subject: Re: Does anyone here buy fish online?
      On 07/05/2015 11:46 AM, Andy Mills andy.mills@...
      [AquaticLife] wrote:
      > Hi, just wondering, has anyone here ever bought fish online and what
      > were your experiences with it, did it work out well, were the fish
      > healthy when they arrived, etc

      I've only done it a couple of times (using Aquabid) because the shipping
      costs are so high. Both times all went well. But I'm lucky in that a
      local store will order as part of their regular order.

      BTW, Aquabid allows you to check seller feedback. Gives you a little
      more confidence in ordering.

      --
      Where have all the flowers gone? Pete Seeger 1919-2014
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56754 From: Trevor Holyoak Date: 7/6/2015
      Subject: Re: Does anyone here buy fish online?
      I have had a few experiences receiving/sending fish in the mail.

      1. Probably 10 years ago I bought some fish on ebay. I took the day off work to be there when they came. They never came, and I never heard back from the seller.

      2. I won some fish in a drawing. I had them shipped to my work address so that I wouldn't have to take the day off to be there. But when I received notification that they had been delivered, but I hadn't seen them, I had to do some detective work to track them down. It turned out they had been received by someone at a different company who had actually taken it upon himself to open them. When I found him, his only comment was, "These fish are not well." (In fact, they were quite dead.) The send sent another shipment a while later, and they were received alive and well at my apartment.

      3. I used to have a bunch of Endler's livebearers in a 10 gallon tank. Whenever the tank got overcrowded, I would send some via Priority Mail (during the summer) without having to worry about heating/cooling. Just a bag in a Priority Mail box. As far as I know, all the fish arrived alive.

      Hopefully this helps. :)

      - Trevor

      Monday, July 06, 2015 11:35 AM
      On 07/05/2015 11:46 AM, Andy Mills andy.mills@...

      I've only done it a couple of times (using Aquabid) because the shipping
      costs are so high. Both times all went well. But I'm lucky in that a
      local store will order as part of their regular order.

      BTW, Aquabid allows you to check seller feedback. Gives you a little
      more confidence in ordering.

      Sunday, July 05, 2015 12:46 PM
      Hi, just wondering, has anyone here ever bought fish online and what
      were your experiences with it, did it work out well, were the fish
      healthy when they arrived, etc. Due to various family issues I don't
      get to go to that many fish shops any more. I've seen some angelfish I
      really like the sound of but something in me just doesn't feel
      comfortable with buying fish this way, being put in a box and maybe
      being in there for hours on end before they get here. I know as someone
      has told me that this is probably what happens to them when they get
      transported to the shops before we see them there but this just doesn't
      quite seem the same. Would very much like to hear what others
      feel/think about this.


      ------------------------------------
      Posted by: Andy Mills <andy.mills@...>
      ------------------------------------

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      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56755 From: pamandress23 Date: 7/6/2015
      Subject: Re: Does anyone here buy fish online?
      I buy and sell on aquabid. I have never had any problems receiving fish or sending. I have bought live bearers, shrimp, snails, plecos, and plants. If you are going with aquabid, check feedback. If you are buying from someone else, make sure you have a guarantee. I ALWAYS send extra if I have them. If I only have what I am selling, I make sure the buyer knows I can't replace them if they die in transit, but I will refund money with proof. As a buyer you need to make sure you know when they will arrive, check them right away and if doa, take pictures before you open the bags!! 
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56756 From: Kevin Boyle Date: 7/11/2015
      Subject: Re: Does anyone here buy fish online?
      i know this is an old thread but if you are looking to save on shipping imperial tropicals out of florida has no shipping cost for 45.00 and up. the catch is they ship 2 day usps but i just got an order of rainbowfish from them and they arrived in great shape

      On 7/5/2015 2:46 PM, Andy Mills andy.mills@... [AquaticLife] wrote:
       

      Hi, just wondering, has anyone here ever bought fish online and what
      were your experiences with it, did it work out well, were the fish
      healthy when they arrived, etc. Due to various family issues I don't
      get to go to that many fish shops any more. I've seen some angelfish I
      really like the sound of but something in me just doesn't feel
      comfortable with buying fish this way, being put in a box and maybe
      being in there for hours on end before they get here. I know as someone
      has told me that this is probably what happens to them when they get
      transported to the shops before we see them there but this just doesn't
      quite seem the same. Would very much like to hear what others
      feel/think about this.


      -- 
      "Never use a big word when a monosyllabic diminutive will suffice."
      
      
      If it turns out that we really are alone in the universe, doesn't it seem like an awful waste of space?"
      
      
      Stupidity is a lot like nuclear power; it can be used for good or evil but either way you wouldn't want to get any on you>"
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56757 From: jett07002 Date: 7/12/2015
      Subject: Re: Does anyone here buy fish online?

      Hi.

      You know, Andy, 2 day shipping isn't too bad in the warm weather.  And if the fish arrived in great shape as you say it's even better.


      Of course, I can't speak for all the USPS drivers, but I ordered fish a while back and they also arrived in good shape, also.   But my point was the USPS driver was so careful with them.   It was really refreshing how much he cared.  At first he did not think I was home and was reluctant to leave in case they would get over heated or something of that sort.


      Of course, you're always going to get the person that don't care once in awhile, but I thin for the most part they try to handle "live stock" with some respect.


      Joe t

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56758 From: Kevin Boyle Date: 7/12/2015
      Subject: Re: Does anyone here buy fish online?
      i have a great usps driver and the day before the fish were to come in i talked to her and explained the situation. the next am she went and found the box rather than waiting for it. then she made me her first stop. the fish would have been fine even 4 or 5 hrs later but it never hurts to have a good relationship with your ups, usps and fedex people. being proactive about the shipment didn't hurt either.

      On 7/12/2015 4:36 PM, jett07002@... [AquaticLife] wrote:
       

      Hi.

      You know, Andy, 2 day shipping isn't too bad in the warm weather.  And if the fish arrived in great shape as you say it's even better.


      Of course, I can't speak for all the USPS drivers, but I ordered fish a while back and they also arrived in good shape, also.   But my point was the USPS driver was so careful with them.   It was really refreshing how much he cared.  At first he did not think I was home and was reluctant to leave in case they would get over heated or something of that sort.


      Of course, you're always going to get the person that don't care once in awhile, but I thin for the most part they try to handle "live stock" with some respect.


      Joe t


      -- 
      "Never use a big word when a monosyllabic diminutive will suffice."
      
      
      If it turns out that we really are alone in the universe, doesn't it seem like an awful waste of space?"
      
      
      Stupidity is a lot like nuclear power; it can be used for good or evil but either way you wouldn't want to get any on you>"
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56759 From: andy_peltier Date: 7/17/2015
      Subject: 75 gallon tank
      Hi all I was just given a 75 gallon tank and custom built stand. It has no center brace on top and I was wondering if that was a norm for some 75 gallon tanks.

      Andy


      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56760 From: sevenspringss Date: 7/17/2015
      Subject: Re: 75 gallon tank
      AOL Email
      Andy,
       
      75 Gallon tanks came both with and without centerbraces.  Then too, not all 75 Gallon tanks with a centerbrace on top had a centerbrace on the bottom.  Whether one of this capacity tanks came with a top centerbrace depended in part by the glass' thickness and by the tank's dimensions.  Not all 75 Gallon tanks were made to a uniform size.  Some were slightly shorter (or narrower) than others and were higher; a higher tank requiring centerbraces.  This is not to say that a slightly lower tank doesn't need a centerbrace, especially if the glass isn't as thick.  If your tank's top frame does not appear to have ever had a centerframe, it looks like it didn't need one.  Check your top frame at the center to see if there are any signs that there ever was a crossbrace  as part of it (which may have snapped), and which may have been cut back and filed flush to the existing frame.  The height of your tank should indicate whether it needed a center cross brace piece, but in short, yes it was the norm for SOME 75 Gallon tanks to not have a centerbrace.
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 7/17/2015 10:16:03 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hi all I was just given a 75 gallon tank and custom built stand. It has no center brace on top and I was wondering if that was a norm for some 75 gallon tanks.

      Andy


      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56761 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 7/19/2015
      Subject: Re: 75 gallon tank
      Just a thought but is it possible this tank was never meant to hold water? I know some tanks are built as vivariums for rodents or reptiles & they are not designed to hold water. If you are in any doubt I would take it outside & fill it with water for a few days to ensure it is structurally sound. Pay particular attention to the alignment if the side-look along them when it is full like you are sighting down the barrel of a gun-if there is any bowing outwards then it is probably going to fail.

        John<o)))<

      On 17 July 2015 at 15:53, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      Andy,
       
      75 Gallon tanks came both with and without centerbraces.  Then too, not all 75 Gallon tanks with a centerbrace on top had a centerbrace on the bottom.  Whether one of this capacity tanks came with a top centerbrace depended in part by the glass' thickness and by the tank's dimensions.  Not all 75 Gallon tanks were made to a uniform size.  Some were slightly shorter (or narrower) than others and were higher; a higher tank requiring centerbraces.  This is not to say that a slightly lower tank doesn't need a centerbrace, especially if the glass isn't as thick.  If your tank's top frame does not appear to have ever had a centerframe, it looks like it didn't need one.  Check your top frame at the center to see if there are any signs that there ever was a crossbrace  as part of it (which may have snapped), and which may have been cut back and filed flush to the existing frame.  The height of your tank should indicate whether it needed a center cross brace piece, but in short, yes it was the norm for SOME 75 Gallon tanks to not have a centerbrace.
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 7/17/2015 10:16:03 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hi all I was just given a 75 gallon tank and custom built stand. It has no center brace on top and I was wondering if that was a norm for some 75 gallon tanks.

      Andy



      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56762 From: sevenspringss Date: 7/19/2015
      Subject: Re: 75 gallon tank
      AOL Email
      Also, while there's the chance that it could have been made as a terrarium, the thickness of the glass as seen on the ends of the tank would indicate if it's meant to hold water.  Take a measurement if you're still not sure and post it here.  
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 7/19/2015 9:16:08 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Just a thought but is it possible this tank was never meant to hold water? I know some tanks are built as vivariums for rodents or reptiles & they are not designed to hold water. If you are in any doubt I would take it outside & fill it with water for a few days to ensure it is structurally sound. Pay particular attention to the alignment if the side-look along them when it is full like you are sighting down the barrel of a gun-if there is any bowing outwards then it is probably going to fail.

        John<o)))<

      On 17 July 2015 at 15:53, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      Andy,
       
      75 Gallon tanks came both with and without centerbraces.  Then too, not all 75 Gallon tanks with a centerbrace on top had a centerbrace on the bottom.  Whether one of this capacity tanks came with a top centerbrace depended in part by the glass' thickness and by the tank's dimensions.  Not all 75 Gallon tanks were made to a uniform size.  Some were slightly shorter (or narrower) than others and were higher; a higher tank requiring centerbraces.  This is not to say that a slightly lower tank doesn't need a centerbrace, especially if the glass isn't as thick.  If your tank's top frame does not appear to have ever had a centerframe, it looks like it didn't need one.  Check your top frame at the center to see if there are any signs that there ever was a crossbrace  as part of it (which may have snapped), and which may have been cut back and filed flush to the existing frame.  The height of your tank should indicate whether it needed a center cross brace piece, but in short, yes it was the norm for SOME 75 Gallon tanks to not have a centerbrace.
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 7/17/2015 10:16:03 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hi all I was just given a 75 gallon tank and custom built stand. It has no center brace on top and I was wondering if that was a norm for some 75 gallon tanks.

      Andy



      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56763 From: andy_peltier Date: 7/19/2015
      Subject: Re: 75 gallon tank
      Hi all thanks the tank was set up in a hospital for like 7 years with fish and the glass is thick. Alot of the sealer on the inside is gone so I plan on resealing it. Thanks for all the advice .


      Andy
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56764 From: sevenspringss Date: 7/19/2015
      Subject: Re: 75 gallon tank
      AOL Email
      Sounds like it was meant to be an aquarium, and one that didn't require a centerbrace since the glass is thick.  This would be a good time to apply a bead of sealer around all corners, while it's dry.  As long as you don't expect rain, this would be a good outdoor project since the sealant fumes can be overbearing indoors.  Also, you'll need to clean all of the corners by wiping them thoroughly with 91% rubbing Alcohol, although acetone is even better.  This gives off fumes too, which is another good reason to do this outdoors.  Don't forget to buy the clear Windows & Doors silicone, not the Kitchen & Bath or the Bathroom Tub & Tile sealant. 
       
      Ray 
       
      In a message dated 7/19/2015 1:05:36 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hi all thanks the tank was set up in a hospital for like 7 years with fish and the glass is thick. Alot of the sealer on the inside is gone so I plan on resealing it. Thanks for all the advice .


      Andy

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56765 From: Rusty Barfield Date: 7/19/2015
      Subject: Re: 75 gallon tank
      Is the stuff labeled “Windows and Doors’ silicone you find at the home improvement store that’s often less expensive the same stuff as what is sold specifically as aquarium sealant?
      Seems to me clear silicone would be all the same unless it’s marked ‘not for aquarium or underwater use.’

      Also, I recently purchased an old metal frame 2 gal tank that has the black (slate?) bottom that seems to have a slight leak.
      Could it be sealed successfully with silicone to adhere to the bottom?
      Thanks.

      Rusty

      On Jul 19, 2015, at 12:15 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:



      Sounds like it was meant to be an aquarium, and one that didn't require a centerbrace since the glass is thick.  This would be a good time to apply a bead of sealer around all corners, while it's dry.  As long as you don't expect rain, this would be a good outdoor project since the sealant fumes can be overbearing indoors.  Also, you'll need to clean all of the corners by wiping them thoroughly with 91% rubbing Alcohol, although acetone is even better.  This gives off fumes too, which is another good reason to do this outdoors.  Don't forget to buy the clear Windows & Doors silicone, not the Kitchen & Bath or the Bathroom Tub & Tile sealant.  
       
      Ray 
       
      In a message dated 7/19/2015 1:05:36 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

      Hi all thanks the tank was set up in a hospital for like 7 years with fish and the glass is thick. Alot of the sealer on the inside is gone so I plan on resealing it. Thanks for all the advice .


      Andy




      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56766 From: sevenspringss Date: 7/19/2015
      Subject: Re: 75 gallon tank
      AOL Email
      Rusty,
       
      Yes, the cartridge of GE Windows & Doors Silicone Sealant is much less expensive that the same type of silicone sealant sold specifically as aquarium sealant.  You can find it at Lowes or Home Depot.  Some of the latest tubes say Clear (Silicone I) All Purpose, but also says directly underneath that, Window, Door (Attic, Trim, & Flashing).  It should not say for Kitchen & Bath nor for Bathroom, Tub & Tile.  GE Silicone II, for the same purposes, is fine too.  Not all clear silicone is the same.  Those silicone sealants designed specifically for Kitchen & Bath and for Bathroom, Tub & Tile have a mildew/mold retardant (arsenic) in them which will kill the fish if used in the aquarium.  For a 2 Gallon tank, you wouldn't need one of these large cartridges.  I believe these GE sealants come in smaller tubes, but if you can't find anything smaller, you'd do best by buying the tube sold in fish stores as aquarium sealant.  Yes, silicone sealant can be used successfully to seal metal frame -- slate bottom tanks, provided you clean the slate thoroughly with acetone and lay down a wider bead on the slate than you would along the glass; 3/4 " would not be too wide.  The one thing that can lift this sealant from slate is the suction of a water-pump-driven hose sucking the water out of such a tank this drain hose comes in contact with the sealant and you try to pull it away without shutting the pump off first.  Otherwise, I have stainless steel, slate bottom tanks that I've sealed with GE Silicone I Window & Door sealant still leak-free after sealing them 25 years ago, and they're still in use today.
       
      Ray     
       
      In a message dated 7/19/2015 1:46:07 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Is the stuff labeled “Windows and Doors’ silicone you find at the home improvement store that’s often less expensive the same stuff as what is sold specifically as aquarium sealant?

      Seems to me clear silicone would be all the same unless it’s marked ‘not for aquarium or underwater use.’

      Also, I recently purchased an old metal frame 2 gal tank that has the black (slate?) bottom that seems to have a slight leak.
      Could it be sealed successfully with silicone to adhere to the bottom?
      Thanks.

      Rusty

      On Jul 19, 2015, at 12:15 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:



      Sounds like it was meant to be an aquarium, and one that didn't require a centerbrace since the glass is thick.  This would be a good time to apply a bead of sealer around all corners, while it's dry.  As long as you don't expect rain, this would be a good outdoor project since the sealant fumes can be overbearing indoors.  Also, you'll need to clean all of the corners by wiping them thoroughly with 91% rubbing Alcohol, although acetone is even better.  This gives off fumes too, which is another good reason to do this outdoors.  Don't forget to buy the clear Windows & Doors silicone, not the Kitchen & Bath or the Bathroom Tub & Tile sealant.  
       
      Ray 
       
      In a message dated 7/19/2015 1:05:36 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

      Hi all thanks the tank was set up in a hospital for like 7 years with fish and the glass is thick. Alot of the sealer on the inside is gone so I plan on resealing it. Thanks for all the advice .


      Andy




      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56767 From: Rusty Barfield Date: 7/20/2015
      Subject: Re: 75 gallon tank
      Ray, thank you for the great info.

      Looking forward to getting this vintage mini aquarium set up.

      Rusty
      On Jul 19, 2015, at 1:39 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:



      Rusty,
       
      Yes, the cartridge of GE Windows & Doors Silicone Sealant is much less expensive that the same type of silicone sealant sold specifically as aquarium sealant.  You can find it at Lowes or Home Depot.  Some of the latest tubes say Clear (Silicone I) All Purpose, but also says directly underneath that, Window, Door (Attic, Trim, & Flashing).  It should not say for Kitchen & Bath nor for Bathroom, Tub & Tile.  GE Silicone II, for the same purposes, is fine too.  Not all clear silicone is the same.  Those silicone sealants designed specifically for Kitchen & Bath and for Bathroom, Tub & Tile have a mildew/mold retardant (arsenic) in them which will kill the fish if used in the aquarium.  For a 2 Gallon tank, you wouldn't need one of these large cartridges.  I believe these GE sealants come in smaller tubes, but if you can't find anything smaller, you'd do best by buying the tube sold in fish stores as aquarium sealant.  Yes, silicone sealant can be used successfully to seal metal frame -- slate bottom tanks, provided you clean the slate thoroughly with acetone and lay down a wider bead on the slate than you would along the glass; 3/4 " would not be too wide.  The one thing that can lift this sealant from slate is the suction of a water-pump-driven hose sucking the water out of such a tank this drain hose comes in contact with the sealant and you try to pull it away without shutting the pump off first.  Otherwise, I have stainless steel, slate bottom tanks that I've sealed with GE Silicone I Window & Door sealant still leak-free after sealing them 25 years ago, and they're still in use today.
       
      Ray      
       
      In a message dated 7/19/2015 1:46:07 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

      Is the stuff labeled “Windows and Doors’ silicone you find at the home improvement store that’s often less expensive the same stuff as what is sold specifically as aquarium sealant? 

      Seems to me clear silicone would be all the same unless it’s marked ‘not for aquarium or underwater use.’

      Also, I recently purchased an old metal frame 2 gal tank that has the black (slate?) bottom that seems to have a slight leak.
      Could it be sealed successfully with silicone to adhere to the bottom?
      Thanks.

      Rusty

      On Jul 19, 2015, at 12:15 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:



      Sounds like it was meant to be an aquarium, and one that didn't require a centerbrace since the glass is thick.  This would be a good time to apply a bead of sealer around all corners, while it's dry.  As long as you don't expect rain, this would be a good outdoor project since the sealant fumes can be overbearing indoors.  Also, you'll need to clean all of the corners by wiping them thoroughly with 91% rubbing Alcohol, although acetone is even better.  This gives off fumes too, which is another good reason to do this outdoors.  Don't forget to buy the clear Windows & Doors silicone, not the Kitchen & Bath or the Bathroom Tub & Tile sealant.  
       
      Ray 
       
      In a message dated 7/19/2015 1:05:36 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

      Hi all thanks the tank was set up in a hospital for like 7 years with fish and the glass is thick. Alot of the sealer on the inside is gone so I plan on resealing it. Thanks for all the advice .


      Andy








      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56768 From: jett07002 Date: 7/20/2015
      Subject: Re: 75 gallon tank

      Hi, Ray.

        In reference to your message about the old stainless steel, slate bottom tanks.   We did the same thing.  If you do the repair with care it will last a LONG time.


      And those old tanks, in my opinion, anyway, were beautiful.   I still have a 45 gallon s/s tank and it shines like it was new.


      joe t

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56769 From: sevenspringss Date: 7/20/2015
      Subject: Re: 75 gallon tank
      AOL Email
      Hi Joe,
       
      Yes, those repairs will last a good while.  Some of my reseal jobs I've had to do using Silicone are about 45 years old; the tanks themselves being older.  Can't get that black cement they used to use to set the glass and slate in those stainless steel frames.  Occasionally, a piece of inferior slate may become porous, so a plate glass bottom must be installed over it.  If a new piece of slate or Bluestone can be found, that works out well too, just by installing it over the old one. 
       
      Yeah, nothing like those stainless steel tanks for added beauty.  Got my first one (a 20 Gallon High) as a gift from my mother when I was 14.  Still using it today.  Had several "Marble Frame" aquariums before then, a 15 gallon one given to me by my uncle when I was 12, being about the largest.  Actually, most of the 90 tanks I have in my hatchery now are stainless steel tanks, up to 125 gallons.  Have a few 100 gallons and several (four) 75 and a couple of 55 gallon, but most of them are 50 gallons.  20 Longs are numerous too as they're versatile for rearing fry. 
       
      The problem starts with these tanks when they're allowed to stand dry for too long, and the old black cement dries and shrinks away from the surfaces they're meant to seal  Always keep some water in them if not using them.  Melted tar can also be used to seal these tanks, but an occasional cracked glass can occur from the heat, time to time.
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 7/20/2015 8:26:26 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hi, Ray.

        In reference to your message about the old stainless steel, slate bottom tanks.   We did the same thing.  If you do the repair with care it will last a LONG time.


      And those old tanks, in my opinion, anyway, were beautiful.   I still have a 45 gallon s/s tank and it shines like it was new.


      joe t

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56770 From: deenerzz Date: 7/20/2015
      Subject: Re: 75 gallon tank
      Ray,
       
      Zoo Med may have it or a black silicone replacement.
      The owner of Zoo Med collects old tanks and antique tanks and I believe he came out with a black sealant to keep the original look of the stainless steel tanks.
       
      Mike
       

      Yes, those repairs will last a good while.  Some of my reseal jobs I've had to do using Silicone are about 45 years old; the tanks themselves being older.  Can't get that black cement they used to use to set the glass and slate in those stainless steel frames.  Occasionally, a piece of inferior slate may become porous, so a plate glass bottom must be installed over it.  If a new piece of slate or Bluestone can be found, that works out well too, just by installing it over the old one. 



      -----Original Message-----
      From: sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
      To: AquaticLife <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Mon, Jul 20, 2015 7:08 pm
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: 75 gallon tank

       
      Hi Joe,
       
      Yes, those repairs will last a good while.  Some of my reseal jobs I've had to do using Silicone are about 45 years old; the tanks themselves being older.  Can't get that black cement they used to use to set the glass and slate in those stainless steel frames.  Occasionally, a piece of inferior slate may become porous, so a plate glass bottom must be installed over it.  If a new piece of slate or Bluestone can be found, that works out well too, just by installing it over the old one. 
       
      Yeah, nothing like those stainless steel tanks for added beauty.  Got my first one (a 20 Gallon High) as a gift from my mother when I was 14.  Still using it today.  Had several "Marble Frame" aquariums before then, a 15 gallon one given to me by my uncle when I was 12, being about the largest.  Actually, most of the 90 tanks I have in my hatchery now are stainless steel tanks, up to 125 gallons.  Have a few 100 gallons and several (four) 75 and a couple of 55 gallon, but most of them are 50 gallons.  20 Longs are numerous too as they're versatile for rearing fry. 
       
      The problem starts with these tanks when they're allowed to stand dry for too long, and the old black cement dries and shrinks away from the surfaces they're meant to seal  Always keep some water in them if not using them.  Melted tar can also be used to seal these tanks, but an occasional cracked glass can occur from the heat, time to time.
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 7/20/2015 8:26:26 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       
      Hi, Ray.
        In reference to your message about the old stainless steel, slate bottom tanks.   We did the same thing.  If you do the repair with care it will last a LONG time.

      And those old tanks, in my opinion, anyway, were beautiful.   I still have a 45 gallon s/s tank and it shines like it was new.

      joe t
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56771 From: sevenspringss Date: 7/21/2015
      Subject: Re: 75 gallon tank
      AOL Email
      Mike,
       
      That may well be, and GE also has a black silicone sealant -- but this does not replace the black putty-like asphaltum  cement that was once produced by a company known as Pecora, and a few other outfits.  We can't remove the bottom slate if it becomes loose, to be able to reset it into an application of silicone between the frame and the slate as we would do with the black aquarium putty many years ago.  Can't do that with the glass either, to set a new piece into the frame, as I see it.  We can only apply the silicone to the inside of the joints/seams between slate and glass, or glass and glass.  The black silicone may be preferable to some, for stainless steel frame aquariums, instead of the clear version since it does have a similar look.   
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 7/20/2015 11:33:54 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Ray,
       
      Zoo Med may have it or a black silicone replacement.
      The owner of Zoo Med collects old tanks and antique tanks and I believe he came out with a black sealant to keep the original look of the stainless steel tanks.
       
      Mike
       

      Yes, those repairs will last a good while.  Some of my reseal jobs I've had to do using Silicone are about 45 years old; the tanks themselves being older.  Can't get that black cement they used to use to set the glass and slate in those stainless steel frames.  Occasionally, a piece of inferior slate may become porous, so a plate glass bottom must be installed over it.  If a new piece of slate or Bluestone can be found, that works out well too, just by installing it over the old one. 



      -----Original Message-----
      From: sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
      To: AquaticLife <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Mon, Jul 20, 2015 7:08 pm
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: 75 gallon tank

       
      Hi Joe,
      Yes, those repairs will last a good while.  Some of my reseal jobs I've had to do using Silicone are about 45 years old; the tanks themselves being older.  Can't get that black cement they used to use to set the glass and slate in those stainless steel frames.  Occasionally, a piece of inferior slate may become porous, so a plate glass bottom must be installed over it.  If a new piece of slate or Bluestone can be found, that works out well too, just by installing it over the old one. 
      Yeah, nothing like those stainless steel tanks for added beauty.  Got my first one (a 20 Gallon High) as a gift from my mother when I was 14.  Still using it today.  Had several "Marble Frame" aquariums before then, a 15 gallon one given to me by my uncle when I was 12, being about the largest.  Actually, most of the 90 tanks I have in my hatchery now are stainless steel tanks, up to 125 gallons.  Have a few 100 gallons and several (four) 75 and a couple of 55 gallon, but most of them are 50 gallons.  20 Longs are numerous too as they're versatile for rearing fry. 
      The problem starts with these tanks when they're allowed to stand dry for too long, and the old black cement dries and shrinks away from the surfaces they're meant to seal  Always keep some water in them if not using them.  Melted tar can also be used to seal these tanks, but an occasional cracked glass can occur from the heat, time to time.
      Ray
      In a message dated 7/20/2015 8:26:26 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       
      Hi, Ray.
        In reference to your message about the old stainless steel, slate bottom tanks.   We did the same thing.  If you do the repair with care it will last a LONG time.

      And those old tanks, in my opinion, anyway, were beautiful.   I still have a 45 gallon s/s tank and it shines like it was new.

      joe t

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56772 From: noura_taweel Date: 7/22/2015
      Subject: Hello everyone
      Hello everyone,
      I hope all members and fishies are doing well.
      I thought of checking in and let you know that we're still alive (Yes!), humans and fish. They had a few rough days with extremely long power outages (3 hours off, 1 hour on), and no one died.
      We also had water supply shortage for a few weeks, but it's better this week. planning for a huge water change today (80%), with cleaning the 20G's filter as my pleco's zucchini almost clogged it.

      Of course, I'm not buying any new fish for the community tank, and i still have 3 in the community tank, and one Yellow Lab Cichlid left after his partner died a couple of months ago (was bloated).

      If I lose this Cichlid, I'm removing his tank.

      I also have a small 6 G planted tank, crowded with plants and snails. NO fish so there are lots of algae on leaves :( I don't know if it will survive, I couldn't find healthy guppies to go there.

      All the best,
      Noura
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56773 From: sevenspringss Date: 7/22/2015
      Subject: Re: Hello everyone
      AOL Email
      Hi Noura,
       
      It's so very good to hear from you.  My thoughts and prayers have gone out to you a number of times, wishing you the best in your current situation.  I'm glad to know that nothing detrimental has happened to you, your family or your fishes.  As for removing the 20 gallon tank if something happens to the one lone Yellow Lab, unless it would really be in the way, I'd suggest you just hang on to it in hopes of better days.  It wasn't that long ago when you were considering repairing another tank, which shows that in better times you were thinking about adding more fish.  Hopefully, those better times will come again -- and (hopefully again) soon.  You might wish you had that 20 gallon tank at that time.  Keep watching for some healthy guppies; they may turn up sooner than you think.  Thank you so much for keeping in touch and for letting us know you're doing well (surviving). 
       
      Best regards,
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 7/22/2015 9:11:16 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hello everyone,
      I hope all members and fishies are doing well.
      I thought of checking in and let you know that we're still alive (Yes!), humans and fish. They had a few rough days with extremely long power outages (3 hours off, 1 hour on), and no one died.
      We also had water supply shortage for a few weeks, but it's better this week. planning for a huge water change today (80%), with cleaning the 20G's filter as my pleco's zucchini almost clogged it.

      Of course, I'm not buying any new fish for the community tank, and i still have 3 in the community tank, and one Yellow Lab Cichlid left after his partner died a couple of months ago (was bloated).

      If I lose this Cichlid, I'm removing his tank.

      I also have a small 6 G planted tank, crowded with plants and snails. NO fish so there are lots of algae on leaves :( I don't know if it will survive, I couldn't find healthy guppies to go there.

      All the best,
      Noura

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56774 From: jett07002 Date: 7/22/2015
      Subject: Re: 75 gallon tank
      Ray,

      As far as I know, you are correct about repairing the old stainless steel tanks.  One of the fellows where I used to hang out, used to repair them but it was a long and tedious task.   He used to chisel out the old "putty " and put new one.  Thinking about it now, I am not sure it was worth all the trouble he went through.  But it was his hobby.  I guess he enjoyed doing it.

      Also, the old cement/putty is not even available any more.

      As you have said, when the silicone started to be used, we used to clean and seal the insides of the tanks.  I am not sure, but I think George - the fellow that used to repair them with the cement - tried to use the silicone as a complete substitute for the cement but it would not adhere properly to the stainless steel.  Why I don't know.   And so you had a leak.

      Moral:  Don't try to take a stainless steel tank apart.  Even if you can get the glass and slate away from the frame without breaking or cracking it, the silicone will not seal to the stainless steel properly.  You are better off sealing the inside of the tank.  Glass to glass and glass to slate.  If the frame is not damaged, it should support  the sealed pieces in place with no problems.

      joe t
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56775 From: noura_taweel Date: 7/25/2015
      Subject: Re: Hello everyone
      Thank you so much for the lovely wishes, Ray!
      I bought some guppies a few hours ago (yeaay!), 3 females and two males. Since the 6 G was running empty for several months, with nothing but plants and MTS, it might go through a mini cycle now with the added bio load. Can I do anything other than daily large water changes?

      Thank you :)

      Noura
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56776 From: sevenspringss Date: 7/25/2015
      Subject: Re: Hello everyone
      AOL Email
      Hi Noura,
       
      You're entirely welcome; we're all glad you're still safe and with us.  On the 6 gallon tank, the guppies are a light bioload.  While it might go through a minicycle, partial water changes should be enough to keep things under control.  The abundance of plants will consume much of the organic wastes.
       
      Ray
       
      In a message dated 7/25/2015 9:17:06 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Thank you so much for the lovely wishes, Ray!
      I bought some guppies a few hours ago (yeaay!), 3 females and two males. Since the 6 G was running empty for several months, with nothing but plants and MTS, it might go through a mini cycle now with the added bio load. Can I do anything other than daily large water changes?

      Thank you :)

      Noura

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56777 From: Noura T. Date: 7/25/2015
      Subject: Re: Hello everyone

      Thank you Ray! I appreciate your help J

      Regarding the Yellow Lab’s tank, I plan to reduce my 3 tanks into 2, not just due to the difficult conditions during this darn war. But I am much busier now than I used to be a few years ago when I set it up. All I wanted was to witness the amazing breeding experience of Cichlids – that didn’t happen. I’m now working as a freelance translator from home, and my free time is less than ideal to take proper care of 3 tanks and 6 parrots, not to mention my human kids ;-)

       

      I will have the community tank in our living room, and the small 6G in my home office, near my desk where I could glance at it when trying to find that tricky stubborn word J

       

      All the best,

      Noura

       

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 26 تموز, 2015 06:20 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Hello everyone

       

       

      Hi Noura,

       

      You're entirely welcome; we're all glad you're still safe and with us.  On the 6 gallon tank, the guppies are a light bioload.  While it might go through a minicycle, partial water changes should be enough to keep things under control.  The abundance of plants will consume much of the organic wastes.

       

      Ray

       

      In a message dated 7/25/2015 9:17:06 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

       

      Thank you so much for the lovely wishes, Ray!
      I bought some guppies a few hours ago (yeaay!), 3 females and two males. Since the 6 G was running empty for several months, with nothing but plants and MTS, it might go through a mini cycle now with the added bio load. Can I do anything other than daily large water changes?

      Thank you :)

      Noura

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56778 From: sevenspringss Date: 7/26/2015
      Subject: Re: Hello everyone
      AOL Email
      Hi again Noura,
       
      That's unfortunate that you never got to see the interesting breeding behavior of these Mouthbrooding fish.  The Yellow Labs would have been just the ideal Cichlid to display this if enough of them had reached maturity.  They're much milder in their behavior towards others of their kind than many other Malawi Mbuna, as you've been told before. 
       
      I had forgotten about those 6 parrots.  I now recall you mentioning them a while back, but I didn't remember you having so many.  I know they require a lot of time to take care of.  Looks like you have a good plan in place with your remaining two tanks.  As always, please keep us posted on the latest developments.
       
      Best regards,
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 7/26/2015 1:49:44 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Thank you Ray! I appreciate your help J

      Regarding the Yellow Lab’s tank, I plan to reduce my 3 tanks into 2, not just due to the difficult conditions during this darn war. But I am much busier now than I used to be a few years ago when I set it up. All I wanted was to witness the amazing breeding experience of Cichlids – that didn’t happen. I’m now working as a freelance translator from home, and my free time is less than ideal to take proper care of 3 tanks and 6 parrots, not to mention my human kids ;-)

      I will have the community tank in our living room, and the small 6G in my home office, near my desk where I could glance at it when trying to find that tricky stubborn word J

      All the best,

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 26 تموز, 2015 06:20 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Hello everyone

       

      Hi Noura,

      You're entirely welcome; we're all glad you're still safe and with us.  On the 6 gallon tank, the guppies are a light bioload.  While it might go through a minicycle, partial water changes should be enough to keep things under control.  The abundance of plants will consume much of the organic wastes.

      Ray

      In a message dated 7/25/2015 9:17:06 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

       

      Thank you so much for the lovely wishes, Ray!
      I bought some guppies a few hours ago (yeaay!), 3 females and two males. Since the 6 G was running empty for several months, with nothing but plants and MTS, it might go through a mini cycle now with the added bio load. Can I do anything other than daily large water changes?

      Thank you :)

      Noura

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56779 From: Noura T. Date: 7/26/2015
      Subject: Re: Hello everyone

      I will surly pop in every now and then J

      Yes I have 4 spoiled budgies (a mamma budgie with her three now-adult offspring) and two cockatiels who have been with me for 16 years.

       

      The five guppies seem to be doing well in the 6G, and my 8 years old daughter has claimed them. We now need to find a baby pleco to keep up with algae! The tank is near the window as it’s the only place where plants can survive.

       

      All the best,

      Noura

       

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 26 تموز, 2015 02:12 م
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Hello everyone

       

       

      Hi again Noura,

       

      That's unfortunate that you never got to see the interesting breeding behavior of these Mouthbrooding fish.  The Yellow Labs would have been just the ideal Cichlid to display this if enough of them had reached maturity.  They're much milder in their behavior towards others of their kind than many other Malawi Mbuna, as you've been told before. 

       

      I had forgotten about those 6 parrots.  I now recall you mentioning them a while back, but I didn't remember you having so many.  I know they require a lot of time to take care of.  Looks like you have a good plan in place with your remaining two tanks.  As always, please keep us posted on the latest developments.

       

      Best regards,

       

      Ray

       

       

      In a message dated 7/26/2015 1:49:44 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

       

      Thank you Ray! I appreciate your help J

      Regarding the Yellow Lab’s tank, I plan to reduce my 3 tanks into 2, not just due to the difficult conditions during this darn war. But I am much busier now than I used to be a few years ago when I set it up. All I wanted was to witness the amazing breeding experience of Cichlids – that didn’t happen. I’m now working as a freelance translator from home, and my free time is less than ideal to take proper care of 3 tanks and 6 parrots, not to mention my human kids ;-)

      I will have the community tank in our living room, and the small 6G in my home office, near my desk where I could glance at it when trying to find that tricky stubborn word J

      All the best,

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 26 تموز, 2015 06:20 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Hello everyone

       

      Hi Noura,

      You're entirely welcome; we're all glad you're still safe and with us.  On the 6 gallon tank, the guppies are a light bioload.  While it might go through a minicycle, partial water changes should be enough to keep things under control.  The abundance of plants will consume much of the organic wastes.

      Ray

      In a message dated 7/25/2015 9:17:06 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

       

      Thank you so much for the lovely wishes, Ray!
      I bought some guppies a few hours ago (yeaay!), 3 females and two males. Since the 6 G was running empty for several months, with nothing but plants and MTS, it might go through a mini cycle now with the added bio load. Can I do anything other than daily large water changes?

      Thank you :)

      Noura

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56780 From: Noura T. Date: 7/26/2015
      Subject: Re: Hello everyone

      That was *surely* not surly! lol

       

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 26 تموز, 2015 07:28 م
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Hello everyone

       

       

      I will surly pop in every now and then J

      Yes I have 4 spoiled budgies (a mamma budgie with her three now-adult offspring) and two cockatiels who have been with me for 16 years.

       

      The five guppies seem to be doing well in the 6G, and my 8 years old daughter has claimed them. We now need to find a baby pleco to keep up with algae! The tank is near the window as it’s the only place where plants can survive.

       

      All the best,

      Noura

       

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 26 تموز, 2015 02:12 م
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Hello everyone

       

       

      Hi again Noura,

       

      That's unfortunate that you never got to see the interesting breeding behavior of these Mouthbrooding fish.  The Yellow Labs would have been just the ideal Cichlid to display this if enough of them had reached maturity.  They're much milder in their behavior towards others of their kind than many other Malawi Mbuna, as you've been told before. 

       

      I had forgotten about those 6 parrots.  I now recall you mentioning them a while back, but I didn't remember you having so many.  I know they require a lot of time to take care of.  Looks like you have a good plan in place with your remaining two tanks.  As always, please keep us posted on the latest developments.

       

      Best regards,

       

      Ray

       

       

      In a message dated 7/26/2015 1:49:44 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

       

      Thank you Ray! I appreciate your help J

      Regarding the Yellow Lab’s tank, I plan to reduce my 3 tanks into 2, not just due to the difficult conditions during this darn war. But I am much busier now than I used to be a few years ago when I set it up. All I wanted was to witness the amazing breeding experience of Cichlids – that didn’t happen. I’m now working as a freelance translator from home, and my free time is less than ideal to take proper care of 3 tanks and 6 parrots, not to mention my human kids ;-)

      I will have the community tank in our living room, and the small 6G in my home office, near my desk where I could glance at it when trying to find that tricky stubborn word J

      All the best,

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 26 تموز, 2015 06:20 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Hello everyone

       

      Hi Noura,

      You're entirely welcome; we're all glad you're still safe and with us.  On the 6 gallon tank, the guppies are a light bioload.  While it might go through a minicycle, partial water changes should be enough to keep things under control.  The abundance of plants will consume much of the organic wastes.

      Ray

      In a message dated 7/25/2015 9:17:06 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

       

      Thank you so much for the lovely wishes, Ray!
      I bought some guppies a few hours ago (yeaay!), 3 females and two males. Since the 6 G was running empty for several months, with nothing but plants and MTS, it might go through a mini cycle now with the added bio load. Can I do anything other than daily large water changes?

      Thank you :)

      Noura

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56781 From: Angela Cancilla Herschel Date: 7/26/2015
      Subject: American Tortoise Rescue , needs help
      I know that there are many of you have ponds in your gardens or know those who do ...and maybe can find places for some .

      American Tortoise Rescue , needs help !
      Who has a pond that can hold more red eared sliders? Who has a big yard and can adopt a sulcata (cannot have any others unless you can separate them). We're getting so many rehoming requests. Email them ( Susan or Marshal)  at;

       info " AT" tortoise.com

       if possible with a photo of your habitat or pond. So Cal only right now please.

      [https://www.facebook.com/AmericanTortoiseRescue?fref=ts]


      Ciao, Angela Cancilla Herschel
      ,  CPBC;
      California

      Member:  IAATE - IAABC

      Being Kind is more important ...than being important. ~
      California Wildlife Center, volunteer  ~

      www.cawildlife.org

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56782 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 7/28/2015
      Subject: Re: Hello everyone
      Hi Noura,

        So nice to hear from you again & pleased to know that you & yours are doing ok-thank you for your kind wishes. You are making the best of an uncertain situation, my very best wishes to you all.

      Sad to say I lost my oldest Comet, Apricot a couple of weeks ago. He passed away peacefully at 12 & a half years of age, he was my first fish who I won at a local fairground in 2003 & has a very special place in my heart. It was because of that fish I learned so much about the hobby & met so many helpful & friendly people. Now out of my original 5 Goldies only one, Marmalade at 11 & a half years remains all on his own but the good news is that last week I found a lovely little baby Comet in the local area small ads. This fish [I think it's a male] was an unwanted child's pet so it's great to be giving him a big new home in my 100 gallon tank. At the moment he's in a 10 gallon quarantine tank but he is so crazy & full of beans he never stops, I had forgotten what it was like having manic young fish darting around with looking after my sedate old boys for so long! I plan on repopulating my tank over the next few months with more unwanted streamlined Goldfish.

        Take care,

        John<o)))<







      On 22 July 2015 at 13:26, n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      Hello everyone,
      I hope all members and fishies are doing well.
      I thought of checking in and let you know that we're still alive (Yes!), humans and fish. They had a few rough days with extremely long power outages (3 hours off, 1 hour on), and no one died.
      We also had water supply shortage for a few weeks, but it's better this week. planning for a huge water change today (80%), with cleaning the 20G's filter as my pleco's zucchini almost clogged it.

      Of course, I'm not buying any new fish for the community tank, and i still have 3 in the community tank, and one Yellow Lab Cichlid left after his partner died a couple of months ago (was bloated).

      If I lose this Cichlid, I'm removing his tank.

      I also have a small 6 G planted tank, crowded with plants and snails. NO fish so there are lots of algae on leaves :( I don't know if it will survive, I couldn't find healthy guppies to go there.

      All the best,
      Noura


      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56783 From: Noura T. Date: 7/29/2015
      Subject: Re: Hello everyone

      Hi John,

       

      So sorry to hear about Apricot L

      They take a piece of our hearts when they go.

      But it will be nice to have new fish now too. What fish can go with comets? Don’t forget to share photos when you get new fish!

       

      My day was extremely busy. My son emptied the 250 ml fish food can into my heavily planted 6G tank! The guppies have only been there for a few days. I had to spend most of the day to break down the tank and clean everything. Siphoning didn’t get everything out. I hope I won’t lose any Guppies due to this. Will put them back in their tank tomorrow. They are with their filter and 6 fry in a 1.5G tank.

       

      Noura

       

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 29 تموز, 2015 03:50 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Hello everyone

       

       

      Hi Noura,

        So nice to hear from you again & pleased to know that you & yours are doing ok-thank you for your kind wishes. You are making the best of an uncertain situation, my very best wishes to you all.

      Sad to say I lost my oldest Comet, Apricot a couple of weeks ago. He passed away peacefully at 12 & a half years of age, he was my first fish who I won at a local fairground in 2003 & has a very special place in my heart. It was because of that fish I learned so much about the hobby & met so many helpful & friendly people. Now out of my original 5 Goldies only one, Marmalade at 11 & a half years remains all on his own but the good news is that last week I found a lovely little baby Comet in the local area small ads. This fish [I think it's a male] was an unwanted child's pet so it's great to be giving him a big new home in my 100 gallon tank. At the moment he's in a 10 gallon quarantine tank but he is so crazy & full of beans he never stops, I had forgotten what it was like having manic young fish darting around with looking after my sedate old boys for so long! I plan on repopulating my tank over the next few months with more unwanted streamlined Goldfish.

        Take care,

        John<o)))<






       

      On 22 July 2015 at 13:26, n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      Hello everyone,
      I hope all members and fishies are doing well.
      I thought of checking in and let you know that we're still alive (Yes!), humans and fish. They had a few rough days with extremely long power outages (3 hours off, 1 hour on), and no one died.
      We also had water supply shortage for a few weeks, but it's better this week. planning for a huge water change today (80%), with cleaning the 20G's filter as my pleco's zucchini almost clogged it.

      Of course, I'm not buying any new fish for the community tank, and i still have 3 in the community tank, and one Yellow Lab Cichlid left after his partner died a couple of months ago (was bloated).

      If I lose this Cichlid, I'm removing his tank.

      I also have a small 6 G planted tank, crowded with plants and snails. NO fish so there are lots of algae on leaves :( I don't know if it will survive, I couldn't find healthy guppies to go there.

      All the best,
      Noura

       

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56784 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 7/29/2015
      Subject: Re: Hello everyone
      Hi Noura,

      Thank you, Apricot a great fish & a great friend-it was a privilege to
      keep him & get to know so much information about this much misunderstood &
      abused species of fish. There are not many fish that are compatible with
      Comets-they are too feisty & boisterous to keep with Fancy Goldfish, really
      they only belong with their own kind, Common Goldfish & Shubunkins. I
      believe Dojo/Weather Loaches also make good tank mates & it would be nice
      to get some of these fish as well. It's a week tonight since I picked up
      the new fish & he's finally told me his name-Sprite. Attached is a photo of
      him taken last Friday & he's looking at my 100 gallon tank-I don't think it
      will be long until he goes in there with Marmalde which should be fun for
      both of them. I think it will perk up the old fish no end who must be
      missing his buddy Apricot & also give Sprite someone to interact with. I'm
      putting in water from the big tank every couple of days when I do a water
      change so he gets used to the chemistry.

      You have had your work cut out today with that fish food 'accident'.
      Hopefully when you put the Guppies back in tomorrow they will clear up any
      food that you couldn't get out manually.

      John*<o)))<*


      On 29 July 2015 at 22:08, 'Noura T.' n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] <
      AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

      >
      >
      > Hi John,
      >
      >
      >
      > So sorry to hear about Apricot L
      >
      > They take a piece of our hearts when they go.
      >
      > But it will be nice to have new fish now too. What fish can go with
      > comets? Don’t forget to share photos when you get new fish!
      >
      >
      >
      > My day was extremely busy. My son emptied the 250 ml fish food can into my
      > heavily planted 6G tank! The guppies have only been there for a few days. I
      > had to spend most of the day to break down the tank and clean everything.
      > Siphoning didn’t get everything out. I hope I won’t lose any Guppies due to
      > this. Will put them back in their tank tomorrow. They are with their filter
      > and 6 fry in a 1.5G tank.
      >
      >
      >
      > Noura
      >
      >
      >
      > *From:* AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      > *Sent:* 29 تموز, 2015 03:50 ص
      > *To:* AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      > *Subject:* Re: [AquaticLife] Hello everyone
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Hi Noura,
      >
      > So nice to hear from you again & pleased to know that you & yours are
      > doing ok-thank you for your kind wishes. You are making the best of an
      > uncertain situation, my very best wishes to you all.
      >
      > Sad to say I lost my oldest Comet, Apricot a couple of weeks ago. He
      > passed away peacefully at 12 & a half years of age, he was my first fish
      > who I won at a local fairground in 2003 & has a very special place in my
      > heart. It was because of that fish I learned so much about the hobby & met
      > so many helpful & friendly people. Now out of my original 5 Goldies only
      > one, Marmalade at 11 & a half years remains all on his own but the good
      > news is that last week I found a lovely little baby Comet in the local area
      > small ads. This fish [I think it's a male] was an unwanted child's pet so
      > it's great to be giving him a big new home in my 100 gallon tank. At the
      > moment he's in a 10 gallon quarantine tank but he is so crazy & full of
      > beans he never stops, I had forgotten what it was like having manic young
      > fish darting around with looking after my sedate old boys for so long! I
      > plan on repopulating my tank over the next few months with more unwanted
      > streamlined Goldfish.
      >
      > Take care,
      >
      > John*<o)))<*
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > On 22 July 2015 at 13:26, n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] <
      > AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
      >
      >
      >
      > Hello everyone,
      > I hope all members and fishies are doing well.
      > I thought of checking in and let you know that we're still alive (Yes!),
      > humans and fish. They had a few rough days with extremely long power
      > outages (3 hours off, 1 hour on), and no one died.
      > We also had water supply shortage for a few weeks, but it's better this
      > week. planning for a huge water change today (80%), with cleaning the 20G's
      > filter as my pleco's zucchini almost clogged it.
      >
      > Of course, I'm not buying any new fish for the community tank, and i still
      > have 3 in the community tank, and one Yellow Lab Cichlid left after his
      > partner died a couple of months ago (was bloated).
      >
      > If I lose this Cichlid, I'm removing his tank.
      >
      > I also have a small 6 G planted tank, crowded with plants and snails. NO
      > fish so there are lots of algae on leaves :( I don't know if it will
      > survive, I couldn't find healthy guppies to go there.
      >
      > All the best,
      > Noura
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56785 From: PAULA BROWN Date: 7/29/2015
      Subject: Re: Hello everyone
      John, you are a wonderful human being to our wonderful fish.  I know that I do not post often, but I so respect your opinion.  Thank you for caring so much to a species that so few know or respect.  There are not many in this world that I respect (I come from law enforcement and my judgment of people is quite jaded), but I really do respect you.  I am sorry to hear about Apricot.

      Paula


      On Tue, Jul 28, 2015 at 8:49 PM, SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      Hi Noura,

        So nice to hear from you again & pleased to know that you & yours are doing ok-thank you for your kind wishes. You are making the best of an uncertain situation, my very best wishes to you all.

      Sad to say I lost my oldest Comet, Apricot a couple of weeks ago. He passed away peacefully at 12 & a half years of age, he was my first fish who I won at a local fairground in 2003 & has a very special place in my heart. It was because of that fish I learned so much about the hobby & met so many helpful & friendly people. Now out of my original 5 Goldies only one, Marmalade at 11 & a half years remains all on his own but the good news is that last week I found a lovely little baby Comet in the local area small ads. This fish [I think it's a male] was an unwanted child's pet so it's great to be giving him a big new home in my 100 gallon tank. At the moment he's in a 10 gallon quarantine tank but he is so crazy & full of beans he never stops, I had forgotten what it was like having manic young fish darting around with looking after my sedate old boys for so long! I plan on repopulating my tank over the next few months with more unwanted streamlined Goldfish.

        Take care,

        John<o)))<







      On 22 July 2015 at 13:26, n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      Hello everyone,
      I hope all members and fishies are doing well.
      I thought of checking in and let you know that we're still alive (Yes!), humans and fish. They had a few rough days with extremely long power outages (3 hours off, 1 hour on), and no one died.
      We also had water supply shortage for a few weeks, but it's better this week. planning for a huge water change today (80%), with cleaning the 20G's filter as my pleco's zucchini almost clogged it.

      Of course, I'm not buying any new fish for the community tank, and i still have 3 in the community tank, and one Yellow Lab Cichlid left after his partner died a couple of months ago (was bloated).

      If I lose this Cichlid, I'm removing his tank.

      I also have a small 6 G planted tank, crowded with plants and snails. NO fish so there are lots of algae on leaves :( I don't know if it will survive, I couldn't find healthy guppies to go there.

      All the best,
      Noura



      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56786 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 7/29/2015
      Subject: Re: Hello everyone
      Hi Paula,

        Thank you so much for your kind words & thoughts about Apricot-I just think that these streamlined Goldfish are such wonderful animals when given the space & care they need. As I mentioned to Noura, I won Apricot at a local fair in August 2003 for my friend's little girl & back then I had no experience of fish keeping although I did find it a little unsettling that live creatures were being given away as prizes. It was only later with hindsight that I realised just how cruel this practice was both to the poor fish & also to the unsuspecting owner who despite their best efforts usually watches his fish die within a few weeks because the information just isn't out there unless you know where to look. Happily Apricot who by then had a couple of friends-one being my remaining fish Marmalade-in a 1.5 gallon bowl were given to me when his owners emigrated in January 2005 & from that point on I really haven't looked back, transferring them to larger & larger tanks, adding a couple more so I had 5 beautiful streamlined Goldfish-4 male Comets & a huge female Common Goldfish called Tiny.

      As a result of keeping these fish I became involved in the pond industry & now manage several medium to large systems. For some time I've been wanting to repopulate my tank as my fish have passed on over the years but I didn't want to just go out & buy them, preferring to adopt any unwanted fish that came my way. I am also involved with re-homing pond fish when for instance their owner dies & the family can no longer maintain the pond. I have a good friend with two huge ponds, 6000 & 10,000 gallons who takes all the orphans & he has some amazing looking fish in there-many of the older residents having cross-bred with each other. Not only Goldfish but Koi, Orfe, Tench & Rudd all happily co-exsist. I've often been tempted to add a few of these rescues to my tank but it didn't seem quite right taking a fish from it's lifelong habitat & putting it in a tank which would have been a completely different environment not to mention taking it away from it's companions & they are very social creatures.

      It was just a couple of weeks ago when a friend suggested I look on Gumtree & other local small ad sites for Goldfish & I was amazed to find there are just so many unwanted fish about. Depressing though it may be, the up side to this is that now I can give a good home to quite a few potentially large fish that otherwise would have no chance & which have only known small, cramped aquariums so it is going to be fun & my new fish who I have now called Sprite is the first in this new adventure. Here is a friend's heavily filtered 200 gallon tank in Australia & shows just how wonderful these pond fish can look in an aquarium of a decent size, something you don't get to see when they are in a pond: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcEwRXfDU0A

        John<o))) &<

      On 29 July 2015 at 02:21, PAULA BROWN paulabrown4480@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      John, you are a wonderful human being to our wonderful fish.  I know that I do not post often, but I so respect your opinion.  Thank you for caring so much to a species that so few know or respect.  There are not many in this world that I respect (I come from law enforcement and my judgment of people is quite jaded), but I really do respect you.  I am sorry to hear about Apricot.

      Paula


      On Tue, Jul 28, 2015 at 8:49 PM, SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      Hi Noura,

        So nice to hear from you again & pleased to know that you & yours are doing ok-thank you for your kind wishes. You are making the best of an uncertain situation, my very best wishes to you all.

      Sad to say I lost my oldest Comet, Apricot a couple of weeks ago. He passed away peacefully at 12 & a half years of age, he was my first fish who I won at a local fairground in 2003 & has a very special place in my heart. It was because of that fish I learned so much about the hobby & met so many helpful & friendly people. Now out of my original 5 Goldies only one, Marmalade at 11 & a half years remains all on his own but the good news is that last week I found a lovely little baby Comet in the local area small ads. This fish [I think it's a male] was an unwanted child's pet so it's great to be giving him a big new home in my 100 gallon tank. At the moment he's in a 10 gallon quarantine tank but he is so crazy & full of beans he never stops, I had forgotten what it was like having manic young fish darting around with looking after my sedate old boys for so long! I plan on repopulating my tank over the next few months with more unwanted streamlined Goldfish.

        Take care,

        John<o)))<







      On 22 July 2015 at 13:26, n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      Hello everyone,
      I hope all members and fishies are doing well.
      I thought of checking in and let you know that we're still alive (Yes!), humans and fish. They had a few rough days with extremely long power outages (3 hours off, 1 hour on), and no one died.
      We also had water supply shortage for a few weeks, but it's better this week. planning for a huge water change today (80%), with cleaning the 20G's filter as my pleco's zucchini almost clogged it.

      Of course, I'm not buying any new fish for the community tank, and i still have 3 in the community tank, and one Yellow Lab Cichlid left after his partner died a couple of months ago (was bloated).

      If I lose this Cichlid, I'm removing his tank.

      I also have a small 6 G planted tank, crowded with plants and snails. NO fish so there are lots of algae on leaves :( I don't know if it will survive, I couldn't find healthy guppies to go there.

      All the best,
      Noura




      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56787 From: PAULA BROWN Date: 7/29/2015
      Subject: Re: Hello everyone
      Those fish are beautiful!  We have a pond (about 250 gallons), but unfortunately with the terrible winter we had, we lost all of our fish in it.  We had some for years and felt awful.  We had a heater that obviously stopped working but we had no idea because of all of the snow over and around it.

      Speaking of tanks, I normally enjoy watching the tv show "Tanked".  I was quite upset though at the last one I watched where they went to Tracy Morgan's house to design a new tank for his octopus.  He had recently had a daughter so they also designed a tank for her room.  It was either a five or ten gallon baby bottle but then they put in about 10 goldfish.  I was horrified at that!  Luckily Tracy really seem to know his fish so that he could do something with the excess goldies.  Maybe it was just done for the show, but I thought that was extremely irresponsible.

      Paula

      On Wed, Jul 29, 2015 at 8:35 PM, SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      Hi Paula,

        Thank you so much for your kind words & thoughts about Apricot-I just think that these streamlined Goldfish are such wonderful animals when given the space & care they need. As I mentioned to Noura, I won Apricot at a local fair in August 2003 for my friend's little girl & back then I had no experience of fish keeping although I did find it a little unsettling that live creatures were being given away as prizes. It was only later with hindsight that I realised just how cruel this practice was both to the poor fish & also to the unsuspecting owner who despite their best efforts usually watches his fish die within a few weeks because the information just isn't out there unless you know where to look. Happily Apricot who by then had a couple of friends-one being my remaining fish Marmalade-in a 1.5 gallon bowl were given to me when his owners emigrated in January 2005 & from that point on I really haven't looked back, transferring them to larger & larger tanks, adding a couple more so I had 5 beautiful streamlined Goldfish-4 male Comets & a huge female Common Goldfish called Tiny.

      As a result of keeping these fish I became involved in the pond industry & now manage several medium to large systems. For some time I've been wanting to repopulate my tank as my fish have passed on over the years but I didn't want to just go out & buy them, preferring to adopt any unwanted fish that came my way. I am also involved with re-homing pond fish when for instance their owner dies & the family can no longer maintain the pond. I have a good friend with two huge ponds, 6000 & 10,000 gallons who takes all the orphans & he has some amazing looking fish in there-many of the older residents having cross-bred with each other. Not only Goldfish but Koi, Orfe, Tench & Rudd all happily co-exsist. I've often been tempted to add a few of these rescues to my tank but it didn't seem quite right taking a fish from it's lifelong habitat & putting it in a tank which would have been a completely different environment not to mention taking it away from it's companions & they are very social creatures.

      It was just a couple of weeks ago when a friend suggested I look on Gumtree & other local small ad sites for Goldfish & I was amazed to find there are just so many unwanted fish about. Depressing though it may be, the up side to this is that now I can give a good home to quite a few potentially large fish that otherwise would have no chance & which have only known small, cramped aquariums so it is going to be fun & my new fish who I have now called Sprite is the first in this new adventure. Here is a friend's heavily filtered 200 gallon tank in Australia & shows just how wonderful these pond fish can look in an aquarium of a decent size, something you don't get to see when they are in a pond: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcEwRXfDU0A

        John<o))) &<

      On 29 July 2015 at 02:21, PAULA BROWN paulabrown4480@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      John, you are a wonderful human being to our wonderful fish.  I know that I do not post often, but I so respect your opinion.  Thank you for caring so much to a species that so few know or respect.  There are not many in this world that I respect (I come from law enforcement and my judgment of people is quite jaded), but I really do respect you.  I am sorry to hear about Apricot.

      Paula


      On Tue, Jul 28, 2015 at 8:49 PM, SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      Hi Noura,

        So nice to hear from you again & pleased to know that you & yours are doing ok-thank you for your kind wishes. You are making the best of an uncertain situation, my very best wishes to you all.

      Sad to say I lost my oldest Comet, Apricot a couple of weeks ago. He passed away peacefully at 12 & a half years of age, he was my first fish who I won at a local fairground in 2003 & has a very special place in my heart. It was because of that fish I learned so much about the hobby & met so many helpful & friendly people. Now out of my original 5 Goldies only one, Marmalade at 11 & a half years remains all on his own but the good news is that last week I found a lovely little baby Comet in the local area small ads. This fish [I think it's a male] was an unwanted child's pet so it's great to be giving him a big new home in my 100 gallon tank. At the moment he's in a 10 gallon quarantine tank but he is so crazy & full of beans he never stops, I had forgotten what it was like having manic young fish darting around with looking after my sedate old boys for so long! I plan on repopulating my tank over the next few months with more unwanted streamlined Goldfish.

        Take care,

        John<o)))<







      On 22 July 2015 at 13:26, n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      Hello everyone,
      I hope all members and fishies are doing well.
      I thought of checking in and let you know that we're still alive (Yes!), humans and fish. They had a few rough days with extremely long power outages (3 hours off, 1 hour on), and no one died.
      We also had water supply shortage for a few weeks, but it's better this week. planning for a huge water change today (80%), with cleaning the 20G's filter as my pleco's zucchini almost clogged it.

      Of course, I'm not buying any new fish for the community tank, and i still have 3 in the community tank, and one Yellow Lab Cichlid left after his partner died a couple of months ago (was bloated).

      If I lose this Cichlid, I'm removing his tank.

      I also have a small 6 G planted tank, crowded with plants and snails. NO fish so there are lots of algae on leaves :( I don't know if it will survive, I couldn't find healthy guppies to go there.

      All the best,
      Noura





      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56788 From: Andy Mills Date: 7/29/2015
      Subject: Re: Hello everyone
      One of our local shops has got some fairly decent sized black comets.
      I keep fancies so can't have one but I'd be very interested to know
      whether or not these fish would stay black or not. Often in goldfish
      the black colouring either fades or disappears completely, I've got one
      fish now who I bought as a black moor, he was black all over but now is
      completely orange. Would imagine a full grown, fully black stream line
      goldfish would look quite nice though.



      On 30/07/2015 00:08, SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@...
      [AquaticLife] wrote:
      > Hi Noura,
      >
      > Thank you, Apricot a great fish & a great friend-it was a privilege to
      > keep him & get to know so much information about this much misunderstood &
      > abused species of fish. There are not many fish that are compatible with
      > Comets-they are too feisty & boisterous to keep with Fancy Goldfish, really
      > they only belong with their own kind, Common Goldfish & Shubunkins. I
      > believe Dojo/Weather Loaches also make good tank mates & it would be nice
      > to get some of these fish as well. It's a week tonight since I picked up
      > the new fish & he's finally told me his name-Sprite. Attached is a photo of
      > him taken last Friday & he's looking at my 100 gallon tank-I don't think it
      > will be long until he goes in there with Marmalde which should be fun for
      > both of them. I think it will perk up the old fish no end who must be
      > missing his buddy Apricot & also give Sprite someone to interact with. I'm
      > putting in water from the big tank every couple of days when I do a water
      > change so he gets used to the chemistry.
      >
      > You have had your work cut out today with that fish food 'accident'.
      > Hopefully when you put the Guppies back in tomorrow they will clear up any
      > food that you couldn't get out manually.
      >
      > John*<o)))<*
      >
      >
      > On 29 July 2015 at 22:08, 'Noura T.' n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] <
      > AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
      >
      >>
      >>
      >> Hi John,
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> So sorry to hear about Apricot L
      >>
      >> They take a piece of our hearts when they go.
      >>
      >> But it will be nice to have new fish now too. What fish can go with
      >> comets? Don’t forget to share photos when you get new fish!
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> My day was extremely busy. My son emptied the 250 ml fish food can into my
      >> heavily planted 6G tank! The guppies have only been there for a few days. I
      >> had to spend most of the day to break down the tank and clean everything.
      >> Siphoning didn’t get everything out. I hope I won’t lose any Guppies due to
      >> this. Will put them back in their tank tomorrow. They are with their filter
      >> and 6 fry in a 1.5G tank.
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> Noura
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> *From:* AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      >> *Sent:* 29 تموز, 2015 03:50 ص
      >> *To:* AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      >> *Subject:* Re: [AquaticLife] Hello everyone
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> Hi Noura,
      >>
      >> So nice to hear from you again & pleased to know that you & yours are
      >> doing ok-thank you for your kind wishes. You are making the best of an
      >> uncertain situation, my very best wishes to you all.
      >>
      >> Sad to say I lost my oldest Comet, Apricot a couple of weeks ago. He
      >> passed away peacefully at 12 & a half years of age, he was my first fish
      >> who I won at a local fairground in 2003 & has a very special place in my
      >> heart. It was because of that fish I learned so much about the hobby & met
      >> so many helpful & friendly people. Now out of my original 5 Goldies only
      >> one, Marmalade at 11 & a half years remains all on his own but the good
      >> news is that last week I found a lovely little baby Comet in the local area
      >> small ads. This fish [I think it's a male] was an unwanted child's pet so
      >> it's great to be giving him a big new home in my 100 gallon tank. At the
      >> moment he's in a 10 gallon quarantine tank but he is so crazy & full of
      >> beans he never stops, I had forgotten what it was like having manic young
      >> fish darting around with looking after my sedate old boys for so long! I
      >> plan on repopulating my tank over the next few months with more unwanted
      >> streamlined Goldfish.
      >>
      >> Take care,
      >>
      >> John*<o)))<*
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> On 22 July 2015 at 13:26, n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] <
      >> AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> Hello everyone,
      >> I hope all members and fishies are doing well.
      >> I thought of checking in and let you know that we're still alive (Yes!),
      >> humans and fish. They had a few rough days with extremely long power
      >> outages (3 hours off, 1 hour on), and no one died.
      >> We also had water supply shortage for a few weeks, but it's better this
      >> week. planning for a huge water change today (80%), with cleaning the 20G's
      >> filter as my pleco's zucchini almost clogged it.
      >>
      >> Of course, I'm not buying any new fish for the community tank, and i still
      >> have 3 in the community tank, and one Yellow Lab Cichlid left after his
      >> partner died a couple of months ago (was bloated).
      >>
      >> If I lose this Cichlid, I'm removing his tank.
      >>
      >> I also have a small 6 G planted tank, crowded with plants and snails. NO
      >> fish so there are lots of algae on leaves :( I don't know if it will
      >> survive, I couldn't find healthy guppies to go there.
      >>
      >> All the best,
      >> Noura
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      > Posted by: SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...>
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s
      >
      > Join us on our Facebook page...https://www.facebook.com/AquaticLifeGroup
      >
      > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You.
      > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º>
      > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <-
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      >
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      >
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56789 From: sevenspringss Date: 7/30/2015
      Subject: Re: Hello everyone
      AOL Email
      Hi John,
       
      I just now learned of your loss of your fish "Apricot."  Please allow me to express my sincere condolences for you loss.  While these pets "may only" be fish, I realize that all of us can become very attached to these aquatic pets especially the longer we have them.  This is the one major drawback of keeping an animal that rarely reaches a human's age -- unless we want to keep Galapagos turtles, or one of those long-lived exotic birds such as what Noura keeps.  Best of luck with your new found frisky baby Comet.  Am having internet service provider problems and they (their tech reps) can't give me an answer to this problem.  I consistently get knocked off line (when I can get up there -- which is infrequent).  Haven't been able to get on line for a couple of days now.  This may be it for a while, although I'll keep trying.  Most often, I get knocked off line just as soon as I get up there.  Can't seem to hold the connection.
       
      Ray   
       
      In a message dated 7/28/2015 8:56:52 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hi Noura,

        So nice to hear from you again & pleased to know that you & yours are doing ok-thank you for your kind wishes. You are making the best of an uncertain situation, my very best wishes to you all.

      Sad to say I lost my oldest Comet, Apricot a couple of weeks ago. He passed away peacefully at 12 & a half years of age, he was my first fish who I won at a local fairground in 2003 & has a very special place in my heart. It was because of that fish I learned so much about the hobby & met so many helpful & friendly people. Now out of my original 5 Goldies only one, Marmalade at 11 & a half years remains all on his own but the good news is that last week I found a lovely little baby Comet in the local area small ads. This fish [I think it's a male] was an unwanted child's pet so it's great to be giving him a big new home in my 100 gallon tank. At the moment he's in a 10 gallon quarantine tank but he is so crazy & full of beans he never stops, I had forgotten what it was like having manic young fish darting around with looking after my sedate old boys for so long! I plan on repopulating my tank over the next few months with more unwanted streamlined Goldfish.

        Take care,

        John<o)))<







      On 22 July 2015 at 13:26, n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      Hello everyone,
      I hope all members and fishies are doing well.
      I thought of checking in and let you know that we're still alive (Yes!), humans and fish. They had a few rough days with extremely long power outages (3 hours off, 1 hour on), and no one died.
      We also had water supply shortage for a few weeks, but it's better this week. planning for a huge water change today (80%), with cleaning the 20G's filter as my pleco's zucchini almost clogged it.

      Of course, I'm not buying any new fish for the community tank, and i still have 3 in the community tank, and one Yellow Lab Cichlid left after his partner died a couple of months ago (was bloated).

      If I lose this Cichlid, I'm removing his tank.

      I also have a small 6 G planted tank, crowded with plants and snails. NO fish so there are lots of algae on leaves :( I don't know if it will survive, I couldn't find healthy guppies to go there.

      All the best,
      Noura


      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56790 From: Nancy Lee Date: 7/30/2015
      Subject: Re: Hello everyone
      John, may I ask which fairgrounds it was. Do you know who was running it? It may have been my husbands stand.



      On Sunday, July 26, 2015 4:24 PM, "'Noura T.' n-ocean@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


       
      That was *surely* not surly! lol
       
      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 26 تموز, 2015 07:28 م
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Hello everyone
       
       
      I will surly pop in every now and then J
      Yes I have 4 spoiled budgies (a mamma budgie with her three now-adult offspring) and two cockatiels who have been with me for 16 years.
       
      The five guppies seem to be doing well in the 6G, and my 8 years old daughter has claimed them. We now need to find a baby pleco to keep up with algae! The tank is near the window as it’s the only place where plants can survive.
       
      All the best,
      Noura
       
      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 26 تموز, 2015 02:12 م
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Hello everyone
       
       
      Hi again Noura,
       
      That's unfortunate that you never got to see the interesting breeding behavior of these Mouthbrooding fish.  The Yellow Labs would have been just the ideal Cichlid to display this if enough of them had reached maturity.  They're much milder in their behavior towards others of their kind than many other Malawi Mbuna, as you've been told before. 
       
      I had forgotten about those 6 parrots.  I now recall you mentioning them a while back, but I didn't remember you having so many.  I know they require a lot of time to take care of.  Looks like you have a good plan in place with your remaining two tanks.  As always, please keep us posted on the latest developments.
       
      Best regards,
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 7/26/2015 1:49:44 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       
      Thank you Ray! I appreciate your help J
      Regarding the Yellow Lab’s tank, I plan to reduce my 3 tanks into 2, not just due to the difficult conditions during this darn war. But I am much busier now than I used to be a few years ago when I set it up. All I wanted was to witness the amazing breeding experience of Cichlids – that didn’t happen. I’m now working as a freelance translator from home, and my free time is less than ideal to take proper care of 3 tanks and 6 parrots, not to mention my human kids ;-)
      I will have the community tank in our living room, and the small 6G in my home office, near my desk where I could glance at it when trying to find that tricky stubborn word J
      All the best,
      Noura
      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 26 تموز, 2015 06:20 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Hello everyone
       
      Hi Noura,
      You're entirely welcome; we're all glad you're still safe and with us.  On the 6 gallon tank, the guppies are a light bioload.  While it might go through a minicycle, partial water changes should be enough to keep things under control.  The abundance of plants will consume much of the organic wastes.
      Ray
      In a message dated 7/25/2015 9:17:06 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       
      Thank you so much for the lovely wishes, Ray!
      I bought some guppies a few hours ago (yeaay!), 3 females and two males. Since the 6 G was running empty for several months, with nothing but plants and MTS, it might go through a mini cycle now with the added bio load. Can I do anything other than daily large water changes?

      Thank you :)

      Noura


      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56791 From: Larry Blanchard Date: 7/30/2015
      Subject: Re: Hello everyone
      On 07/29/2015 11:54 PM, Andy Mills andy.mills@...
      [AquaticLife] wrote:
      > Often in goldfish
      > the black colouring either fades or disappears completely, I've got one
      > fish now who I bought as a black moor, he was black all over but now is
      > completely orange.

      I think that's relatively recent - last 50 years or so. Something to do
      with the breeding. I had a couple of black moors around 1950 and I
      don't remember even hearing about color changes - I never saw it in
      mine. That's a small sample but as I said, I don't even recall it being
      talked about.

      --
      Where have all the flowers gone? Pete Seeger 1919-2014
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56792 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 7/30/2015
      Subject: Re: Hello everyone
      Hi Paula,

        So sorry you lost your Goldfish last Winter-do you normally heat your pond & are you somewhere that gets extremely cold? Living in the UK we don't generally have that bad Winters so pond heaters are not usually needed although I always sink the filter outlet underwater during Winter so if everything freezes above then the drive-chain of filtration is still circulating.

      I'm not familiar with the program you mention but I agree that situation with the Goldfish was extremely irresponsible, these fish are commonly thought of as short term decorations & that kind of imagery does nothing to redress the balance unfortunately.

        John<o)))<

      On 30 July 2015 at 01:52, PAULA BROWN paulabrown4480@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      Those fish are beautiful!  We have a pond (about 250 gallons), but unfortunately with the terrible winter we had, we lost all of our fish in it.  We had some for years and felt awful.  We had a heater that obviously stopped working but we had no idea because of all of the snow over and around it.

      Speaking of tanks, I normally enjoy watching the tv show "Tanked".  I was quite upset though at the last one I watched where they went to Tracy Morgan's house to design a new tank for his octopus.  He had recently had a daughter so they also designed a tank for her room.  It was either a five or ten gallon baby bottle but then they put in about 10 goldfish.  I was horrified at that!  Luckily Tracy really seem to know his fish so that he could do something with the excess goldies.  Maybe it was just done for the show, but I thought that was extremely irresponsible.

      Paula

      On Wed, Jul 29, 2015 at 8:35 PM, SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      Hi Paula,

        Thank you so much for your kind words & thoughts about Apricot-I just think that these streamlined Goldfish are such wonderful animals when given the space & care they need. As I mentioned to Noura, I won Apricot at a local fair in August 2003 for my friend's little girl & back then I had no experience of fish keeping although I did find it a little unsettling that live creatures were being given away as prizes. It was only later with hindsight that I realised just how cruel this practice was both to the poor fish & also to the unsuspecting owner who despite their best efforts usually watches his fish die within a few weeks because the information just isn't out there unless you know where to look. Happily Apricot who by then had a couple of friends-one being my remaining fish Marmalade-in a 1.5 gallon bowl were given to me when his owners emigrated in January 2005 & from that point on I really haven't looked back, transferring them to larger & larger tanks, adding a couple more so I had 5 beautiful streamlined Goldfish-4 male Comets & a huge female Common Goldfish called Tiny.

      As a result of keeping these fish I became involved in the pond industry & now manage several medium to large systems. For some time I've been wanting to repopulate my tank as my fish have passed on over the years but I didn't want to just go out & buy them, preferring to adopt any unwanted fish that came my way. I am also involved with re-homing pond fish when for instance their owner dies & the family can no longer maintain the pond. I have a good friend with two huge ponds, 6000 & 10,000 gallons who takes all the orphans & he has some amazing looking fish in there-many of the older residents having cross-bred with each other. Not only Goldfish but Koi, Orfe, Tench & Rudd all happily co-exsist. I've often been tempted to add a few of these rescues to my tank but it didn't seem quite right taking a fish from it's lifelong habitat & putting it in a tank which would have been a completely different environment not to mention taking it away from it's companions & they are very social creatures.

      It was just a couple of weeks ago when a friend suggested I look on Gumtree & other local small ad sites for Goldfish & I was amazed to find there are just so many unwanted fish about. Depressing though it may be, the up side to this is that now I can give a good home to quite a few potentially large fish that otherwise would have no chance & which have only known small, cramped aquariums so it is going to be fun & my new fish who I have now called Sprite is the first in this new adventure. Here is a friend's heavily filtered 200 gallon tank in Australia & shows just how wonderful these pond fish can look in an aquarium of a decent size, something you don't get to see when they are in a pond: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcEwRXfDU0A

        John<o))) &<

      On 29 July 2015 at 02:21, PAULA BROWN paulabrown4480@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      John, you are a wonderful human being to our wonderful fish.  I know that I do not post often, but I so respect your opinion.  Thank you for caring so much to a species that so few know or respect.  There are not many in this world that I respect (I come from law enforcement and my judgment of people is quite jaded), but I really do respect you.  I am sorry to hear about Apricot.

      Paula


      On Tue, Jul 28, 2015 at 8:49 PM, SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      Hi Noura,

        So nice to hear from you again & pleased to know that you & yours are doing ok-thank you for your kind wishes. You are making the best of an uncertain situation, my very best wishes to you all.

      Sad to say I lost my oldest Comet, Apricot a couple of weeks ago. He passed away peacefully at 12 & a half years of age, he was my first fish who I won at a local fairground in 2003 & has a very special place in my heart. It was because of that fish I learned so much about the hobby & met so many helpful & friendly people. Now out of my original 5 Goldies only one, Marmalade at 11 & a half years remains all on his own but the good news is that last week I found a lovely little baby Comet in the local area small ads. This fish [I think it's a male] was an unwanted child's pet so it's great to be giving him a big new home in my 100 gallon tank. At the moment he's in a 10 gallon quarantine tank but he is so crazy & full of beans he never stops, I had forgotten what it was like having manic young fish darting around with looking after my sedate old boys for so long! I plan on repopulating my tank over the next few months with more unwanted streamlined Goldfish.

        Take care,

        John<o)))<







      On 22 July 2015 at 13:26, n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      Hello everyone,
      I hope all members and fishies are doing well.
      I thought of checking in and let you know that we're still alive (Yes!), humans and fish. They had a few rough days with extremely long power outages (3 hours off, 1 hour on), and no one died.
      We also had water supply shortage for a few weeks, but it's better this week. planning for a huge water change today (80%), with cleaning the 20G's filter as my pleco's zucchini almost clogged it.

      Of course, I'm not buying any new fish for the community tank, and i still have 3 in the community tank, and one Yellow Lab Cichlid left after his partner died a couple of months ago (was bloated).

      If I lose this Cichlid, I'm removing his tank.

      I also have a small 6 G planted tank, crowded with plants and snails. NO fish so there are lots of algae on leaves :( I don't know if it will survive, I couldn't find healthy guppies to go there.

      All the best,
      Noura






      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56793 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 7/30/2015
      Subject: Re: Hello everyone
      Hi Andy,

        Black Comets look fabulous & one of the ponds I look after has several of these splendid animals in it but the down side is you only get to see them properly when they happen to swim over the 3 foot long white Koi in there!! They would look lovely in a tank. As with most Goldfish the colouring is largely down to genetics & the pigment is very unstable so you could have two fish from the same spawn-one retaining it's colour throughout it's life & the other loosing it or changing colour after a couple of years. Black Moors turning orange seems to be happening a lot more in recent years although I have no idea why.

        John<o)))<

      On 30 July 2015 at 07:54, Andy Mills andy.mills@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
      One  of our local shops has got some fairly decent sized black comets.
      I keep fancies so can't have one but I'd be very interested to know
      whether or not these fish would stay black or not.  Often in goldfish
      the black colouring either fades or disappears completely, I've got one
      fish now who I bought as a black moor, he was black all over but now is
      completely orange.  Would imagine a full grown, fully black stream line
      goldfish would look quite nice though.



      On 30/07/2015 00:08, SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@...
      [AquaticLife] wrote:
      > Hi Noura,
      >
      >    Thank you, Apricot a great fish & a great friend-it was a privilege to
      > keep him & get to know so much information about this much misunderstood &
      > abused species of fish. There are not many fish that are compatible with
      > Comets-they are too feisty & boisterous to keep with Fancy Goldfish, really
      > they only belong with their own kind, Common Goldfish & Shubunkins. I
      > believe Dojo/Weather Loaches also make good tank mates & it would be nice
      > to get some of these fish as well. It's a week tonight since I picked up
      > the new fish & he's finally told me his name-Sprite. Attached is a photo of
      > him taken last Friday & he's looking at my 100 gallon tank-I don't think it
      > will be long until he goes in there with Marmalde which should be fun for
      > both of them. I think it will perk up the old fish no end who must be
      > missing his buddy Apricot & also give Sprite someone to interact with. I'm
      > putting in water from the big tank every couple of days when I do a water
      > change so he gets used to the chemistry.
      >
      > You have had your work cut out today with that fish food 'accident'.
      > Hopefully when you put the Guppies back in tomorrow they will clear up any
      > food that you couldn't get out manually.
      >
      >    John*<o)))<*
      >
      >
      > On 29 July 2015 at 22:08, 'Noura T.' n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] <
      > AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
      >
      >>
      >>
      >> Hi John,
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> So sorry to hear about Apricot L
      >>
      >> They take a piece of our hearts when they go.
      >>
      >> But it will be nice to have new fish now too. What fish can go with
      >> comets? Don’t forget to share photos when you get new fish!
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> My day was extremely busy. My son emptied the 250 ml fish food can into my
      >> heavily planted 6G tank! The guppies have only been there for a few days. I
      >> had to spend most of the day to break down the tank and clean everything.
      >> Siphoning didn’t get everything out. I hope I won’t lose any Guppies due to
      >> this. Will put them back in their tank tomorrow. They are with their filter
      >> and 6 fry in a 1.5G tank.
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> Noura
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> *From:* AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      >> *Sent:* 29 تموز, 2015 03:50 ص
      >> *To:* AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      >> *Subject:* Re: [AquaticLife] Hello everyone
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> Hi Noura,
      >>
      >>    So nice to hear from you again & pleased to know that you & yours are
      >> doing ok-thank you for your kind wishes. You are making the best of an
      >> uncertain situation, my very best wishes to you all.
      >>
      >> Sad to say I lost my oldest Comet, Apricot a couple of weeks ago. He
      >> passed away peacefully at 12 & a half years of age, he was my first fish
      >> who I won at a local fairground in 2003 & has a very special place in my
      >> heart. It was because of that fish I learned so much about the hobby & met
      >> so many helpful & friendly people. Now out of my original 5 Goldies only
      >> one, Marmalade at 11 & a half years remains all on his own but the good
      >> news is that last week I found a lovely little baby Comet in the local area
      >> small ads. This fish [I think it's a male] was an unwanted child's pet so
      >> it's great to be giving him a big new home in my 100 gallon tank. At the
      >> moment he's in a 10 gallon quarantine tank but he is so crazy & full of
      >> beans he never stops, I had forgotten what it was like having manic young
      >> fish darting around with looking after my sedate old boys for so long! I
      >> plan on repopulating my tank over the next few months with more unwanted
      >> streamlined Goldfish.
      >>
      >>    Take care,
      >>
      >>    John*<o)))<*
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> On 22 July 2015 at 13:26, n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] <
      >> AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> Hello everyone,
      >> I hope all members and fishies are doing well.
      >> I thought of checking in and let you know that we're still alive (Yes!),
      >> humans and fish. They had a few rough days with extremely long power
      >> outages (3 hours off, 1 hour on), and no one died.
      >> We also had water supply shortage for a few weeks, but it's better this
      >> week. planning for a huge water change today (80%), with cleaning the 20G's
      >> filter as my pleco's zucchini almost clogged it.
      >>
      >> Of course, I'm not buying any new fish for the community tank, and i still
      >> have 3 in the community tank, and one Yellow Lab Cichlid left after his
      >> partner died a couple of months ago (was bloated).
      >>
      >> If I lose this Cichlid, I'm removing his tank.
      >>
      >> I also have a small 6 G planted tank, crowded with plants and snails. NO
      >> fish so there are lots of algae on leaves :( I don't know if it will
      >> survive, I couldn't find healthy guppies to go there.
      >>
      >> All the best,
      >> Noura
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      > Posted by: SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...>
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s
      >
      > Join us on our Facebook page...https://www.facebook.com/AquaticLifeGroup
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      > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You.
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      >
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      > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies.
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      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56794 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 7/30/2015
      Subject: Re: Hello everyone
      Hi Ray,

        Sorry to hear you are having internet problems-I hope this can be sorted out soon. Thank you for your kind words about Apricot, I hope that everything I learn as I go along will benefit my fish in the future & yes I do miss him a lot. When I fed him, after taking the food he would always hesitate for me to give him a gentle stroke along his flanks as he turned away-sometimes he didn't even go for the food preferring to nuzzle into the palm of my hand for a couple of seconds. All of my fish became very tame but he was just that little bit more so.

      The new baby Comet "Sprite" went into my big tank around 6 hours ago, after some hesitation he made his way behind the big planter where Marmalade usually sits & as he approached it Marmalade came up to greet him which was lovely. The two of them have been side by side almost all the time since then with Sprite making occasional forays into the big wide world of my 8 foot long tank but he only goes a couple of feet & straight back to the safety of his big new buddy! This is very good for both fish, Marmalade has finally got some company again & Sprite has a new buddy to interact with. Having lived with Marmalade for 10 years I feel I know his moods & I can honestly say I believe he is extremely happy with his new little friend. I'll post some photos in the next day or so & also have a video that I'll try to link to.

        John<o)))<



      On 30 July 2015 at 10:39, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      Hi John,
       
      I just now learned of your loss of your fish "Apricot."  Please allow me to express my sincere condolences for you loss.  While these pets "may only" be fish, I realize that all of us can become very attached to these aquatic pets especially the longer we have them.  This is the one major drawback of keeping an animal that rarely reaches a human's age -- unless we want to keep Galapagos turtles, or one of those long-lived exotic birds such as what Noura keeps.  Best of luck with your new found frisky baby Comet.  Am having internet service provider problems and they (their tech reps) can't give me an answer to this problem.  I consistently get knocked off line (when I can get up there -- which is infrequent).  Haven't been able to get on line for a couple of days now.  This may be it for a while, although I'll keep trying.  Most often, I get knocked off line just as soon as I get up there.  Can't seem to hold the connection.
       
      Ray   
       
      In a message dated 7/28/2015 8:56:52 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hi Noura,

        So nice to hear from you again & pleased to know that you & yours are doing ok-thank you for your kind wishes. You are making the best of an uncertain situation, my very best wishes to you all.

      Sad to say I lost my oldest Comet, Apricot a couple of weeks ago. He passed away peacefully at 12 & a half years of age, he was my first fish who I won at a local fairground in 2003 & has a very special place in my heart. It was because of that fish I learned so much about the hobby & met so many helpful & friendly people. Now out of my original 5 Goldies only one, Marmalade at 11 & a half years remains all on his own but the good news is that last week I found a lovely little baby Comet in the local area small ads. This fish [I think it's a male] was an unwanted child's pet so it's great to be giving him a big new home in my 100 gallon tank. At the moment he's in a 10 gallon quarantine tank but he is so crazy & full of beans he never stops, I had forgotten what it was like having manic young fish darting around with looking after my sedate old boys for so long! I plan on repopulating my tank over the next few months with more unwanted streamlined Goldfish.

        Take care,

        John<o)))<







      On 22 July 2015 at 13:26, n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      Hello everyone,
      I hope all members and fishies are doing well.
      I thought of checking in and let you know that we're still alive (Yes!), humans and fish. They had a few rough days with extremely long power outages (3 hours off, 1 hour on), and no one died.
      We also had water supply shortage for a few weeks, but it's better this week. planning for a huge water change today (80%), with cleaning the 20G's filter as my pleco's zucchini almost clogged it.

      Of course, I'm not buying any new fish for the community tank, and i still have 3 in the community tank, and one Yellow Lab Cichlid left after his partner died a couple of months ago (was bloated).

      If I lose this Cichlid, I'm removing his tank.

      I also have a small 6 G planted tank, crowded with plants and snails. NO fish so there are lots of algae on leaves :( I don't know if it will survive, I couldn't find healthy guppies to go there.

      All the best,
      Noura



      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56795 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 7/30/2015
      Subject: Re: Hello everyone
      Hi Nancy,

        The fairground I won Apricot at was in the UK at Blaby south of Leicester in August 2003, I understand from my friend who originally had the fish that they won Marmalade at the same fair in August 2004.

        John<o)))<

      On 30 July 2015 at 15:00, Nancy Lee msbutterfly770@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      John, may I ask which fairgrounds it was. Do you know who was running it? It may have been my husbands stand.



      On Sunday, July 26, 2015 4:24 PM, "'Noura T.' n-ocean@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


       
      That was *surely* not surly! lol
       
      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 26 تموز, 2015 07:28 م
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Hello everyone
       
       
      I will surly pop in every now and then J
      Yes I have 4 spoiled budgies (a mamma budgie with her three now-adult offspring) and two cockatiels who have been with me for 16 years.
       
      The five guppies seem to be doing well in the 6G, and my 8 years old daughter has claimed them. We now need to find a baby pleco to keep up with algae! The tank is near the window as it’s the only place where plants can survive.
       
      All the best,
      Noura
       
      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 26 تموز, 2015 02:12 م
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Hello everyone
       
       
      Hi again Noura,
       
      That's unfortunate that you never got to see the interesting breeding behavior of these Mouthbrooding fish.  The Yellow Labs would have been just the ideal Cichlid to display this if enough of them had reached maturity.  They're much milder in their behavior towards others of their kind than many other Malawi Mbuna, as you've been told before. 
       
      I had forgotten about those 6 parrots.  I now recall you mentioning them a while back, but I didn't remember you having so many.  I know they require a lot of time to take care of.  Looks like you have a good plan in place with your remaining two tanks.  As always, please keep us posted on the latest developments.
       
      Best regards,
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 7/26/2015 1:49:44 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       
      Thank you Ray! I appreciate your help J
      Regarding the Yellow Lab’s tank, I plan to reduce my 3 tanks into 2, not just due to the difficult conditions during this darn war. But I am much busier now than I used to be a few years ago when I set it up. All I wanted was to witness the amazing breeding experience of Cichlids – that didn’t happen. I’m now working as a freelance translator from home, and my free time is less than ideal to take proper care of 3 tanks and 6 parrots, not to mention my human kids ;-)
      I will have the community tank in our living room, and the small 6G in my home office, near my desk where I could glance at it when trying to find that tricky stubborn word J
      All the best,
      Noura
      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 26 تموز, 2015 06:20 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Hello everyone
       
      Hi Noura,
      You're entirely welcome; we're all glad you're still safe and with us.  On the 6 gallon tank, the guppies are a light bioload.  While it might go through a minicycle, partial water changes should be enough to keep things under control.  The abundance of plants will consume much of the organic wastes.
      Ray
      In a message dated 7/25/2015 9:17:06 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       
      Thank you so much for the lovely wishes, Ray!
      I bought some guppies a few hours ago (yeaay!), 3 females and two males. Since the 6 G was running empty for several months, with nothing but plants and MTS, it might go through a mini cycle now with the added bio load. Can I do anything other than daily large water changes?

      Thank you :)

      Noura



      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56796 From: Noura T. Date: 7/31/2015
      Subject: Re: Hello everyone

      I’m losing one of the guppy females right after she gave birth this morning, 24 hours after doing the COMPLETE cleaning of the 6G planted tank L. She’s hopeless.

      I think that I mentioned how I needed to break it and clean it after my son emptied the fish food in it. Sigh….

       

      Noura

       

       

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 26 تموز, 2015 07:28 Ù
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Hello everyone

       

       

      I will surely pop in every now and then J

      Yes I have 4 spoiled budgies (a mamma budgie with her three now-adult offspring) and two cockatiels who have been with me for 16 years.

       

      The five guppies seem to be doing well in the 6G, and my 8 years old daughter has claimed them. We now need to find a baby pleco to keep up with algae! The tank is near the window as it’s the only place where plants can survive.

       

      All the best,

      Noura

       

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 26 تموز, 2015 02:12 Ù
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Hello everyone

       

       

      Hi again Noura,

       

      That's unfortunate that you never got to see the interesting breeding behavior of these Mouthbrooding fish.  The Yellow Labs would have been just the ideal Cichlid to display this if enough of them had reached maturity.  They're much milder in their behavior towards others of their kind than many other Malawi Mbuna, as you've been told before. 

       

      I had forgotten about those 6 parrots.  I now recall you mentioning them a while back, but I didn't remember you having so many.  I know they require a lot of time to take care of.  Looks like you have a good plan in place with your remaining two tanks.  As always, please keep us posted on the latest developments.

       

      Best regards,

       

      Ray

       

       

      In a message dated 7/26/2015 1:49:44 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

       

      Thank you Ray! I appreciate your help J

      Regarding the Yellow Lab’s tank, I plan to reduce my 3 tanks into 2, not just due to the difficult conditions during this darn war. But I am much busier now than I used to be a few years ago when I set it up. All I wanted was to witness the amazing breeding experience of Cichlids – that didn’t happen. I’m now working as a freelance translator from home, and my free time is less than ideal to take proper care of 3 tanks and 6 parrots, not to mention my human kids ;-)

      I will have the community tank in our living room, and the small 6G in my home office, near my desk where I could glance at it when trying to find that tricky stubborn word J

      All the best,

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 26 تموز, 2015 06:20 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Hello everyone

       

      Hi Noura,

      You're entirely welcome; we're all glad you're still safe and with us.  On the 6 gallon tank, the guppies are a light bioload.  While it might go through a minicycle, partial water changes should be enough to keep things under control.  The abundance of plants will consume much of the organic wastes.

      Ray

      In a message dated 7/25/2015 9:17:06 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

       

      Thank you so much for the lovely wishes, Ray!
      I bought some guppies a few hours ago (yeaay!), 3 females and two males. Since the 6 G was running empty for several months, with nothing but plants and MTS, it might go through a mini cycle now with the added bio load. Can I do anything other than daily large water changes?

      Thank you :)

      Noura

       

       

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56797 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 8/1/2015
      Subject: Re: Hello everyone
      ​Hi Noura,

        So sorry to hear that you lost one of the female Guppys, how many fish were in the affected tank & are they all back in there now?

        John<o)))<


      On 31 July 2015 at 11:56, 'Noura T.' n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      I’m losing one of the guppy females right after she gave birth this morning, 24 hours after doing the COMPLETE cleaning of the 6G planted tank L. She’s hopeless.

      I think that I mentioned how I needed to break it and clean it after my son emptied the fish food in it. Sigh….

       

      Noura

       

       

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 26 تموز, 2015 07:28 Ù
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Hello everyone

       

       

      I will surely pop in every now and then J

      Yes I have 4 spoiled budgies (a mamma budgie with her three now-adult offspring) and two cockatiels who have been with me for 16 years.

       

      The five guppies seem to be doing well in the 6G, and my 8 years old daughter has claimed them. We now need to find a baby pleco to keep up with algae! The tank is near the window as it’s the only place where plants can survive.

       

      All the best,

      Noura

       

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 26 تموز, 2015 02:12 Ù
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Hello everyone

       

       

      Hi again Noura,

       

      That's unfortunate that you never got to see the interesting breeding behavior of these Mouthbrooding fish.  The Yellow Labs would have been just the ideal Cichlid to display this if enough of them had reached maturity.  They're much milder in their behavior towards others of their kind than many other Malawi Mbuna, as you've been told before. 

       

      I had forgotten about those 6 parrots.  I now recall you mentioning them a while back, but I didn't remember you having so many.  I know they require a lot of time to take care of.  Looks like you have a good plan in place with your remaining two tanks.  As always, please keep us posted on the latest developments.

       

      Best regards,

       

      Ray

       

       

      In a message dated 7/26/2015 1:49:44 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

       

      Thank you Ray! I appreciate your help J

      Regarding the Yellow Lab’s tank, I plan to reduce my 3 tanks into 2, not just due to the difficult conditions during this darn war. But I am much busier now than I used to be a few years ago when I set it up. All I wanted was to witness the amazing breeding experience of Cichlids – that didn’t happen. I’m now working as a freelance translator from home, and my free time is less than ideal to take proper care of 3 tanks and 6 parrots, not to mention my human kids ;-)

      I will have the community tank in our living room, and the small 6G in my home office, near my desk where I could glance at it when trying to find that tricky stubborn word J

      All the best,

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 26 تموز, 2015 06:20 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Hello everyone

       

      Hi Noura,

      You're entirely welcome; we're all glad you're still safe and with us.  On the 6 gallon tank, the guppies are a light bioload.  While it might go through a minicycle, partial water changes should be enough to keep things under control.  The abundance of plants will consume much of the organic wastes.

      Ray

      In a message dated 7/25/2015 9:17:06 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

       

      Thank you so much for the lovely wishes, Ray!
      I bought some guppies a few hours ago (yeaay!), 3 females and two males. Since the 6 G was running empty for several months, with nothing but plants and MTS, it might go through a mini cycle now with the added bio load. Can I do anything other than daily large water changes?

      Thank you :)

      Noura

       

       


      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56798 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 8/2/2015
      Subject: Sprite Meets Marmalade-Introducing A New Goldfish
      ​Hi Everyone,

        I introduced my new baby 'Sprite' to to my old boy 'Marmalade' last Thursday, as you can see in this video Sprite seems startled by the size of the tank he suddenly finds himself in & Marmalade comes up to greet him from behind the big planter: http://smg.photobucket.com/user/mrbushy/media/Sprite%20meets%20Marmalade_zpsqxizkcj6.mp4.html

      Since going in the little fish has hardly left Marmalade's side-only to venture farther & farther afield but always hurries back to the safety of Marmalade's side, my tank is 8 feet long so it must seem huge to a little fish. This is quite an amazing thing to see-the two fish have bonded like long lost buddies-they obviously adore one another & the little fish is constantly trying to burrow underneath Marmalade! It's especially nice for Marmalade because he lost his lifelong friend Apricot just over 3 weeks ago so I think he has been very lonely. Even though Marmalade is not very mobile any more I often see the pair of them doing loops behind the planter-they are just playing around & it's as if Sprite has given the old fish a new lease of life. I haven't seen such fun going on for some months now-this little chap has brought the sparkle back to my tank.

      Yesterday while I was hand feeding Marmalade a pellet, Sprite came up & started pecking at my hand so I offered him one & he gladly took it. This is amazing, it took me months before my old fish would do this when I first got them yet Sprite has only been with me 11 days. Today he has been exploring the extremities of the tank & surfing the current from the  canister outlet behind the bogwood-great fun! http://smg.photobucket.com/user/mrbushy/media/Sprite%20Shooting%20The%20Rapids_zpsuvxq0nrt.mp4.html

      Sprite is the first of several unwanted streamlined Goldfish that are going to have a great new life in my tank.

        John<o)))<
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56799 From: sevenspringss Date: 8/2/2015
      Subject: Re: Sprite Meets Marmalade-Introducing A New Goldfish
      AOL Email
      Hi John,
       
      That was a real enjoyable read.  I'm glad to see things are going so well.  Wishing you the best for Sprite and Marmalade -- and many, many more years for the oldster.  They both deserve a good many more happy years together, as do you enjoying them.  I see you're planning on saving several other castoffs; best of luck with them all.
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 8/2/2015 6:58:53 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      ​Hi Everyone,

        I introduced my new baby 'Sprite' to to my old boy 'Marmalade' last Thursday, as you can see in this video Sprite seems startled by the size of the tank he suddenly finds himself in & Marmalade comes up to greet him from behind the big planter: http://smg.photobucket.com/user/mrbushy/media/Sprite%20meets%20Marmalade_zpsqxizkcj6.mp4.html

      Since going in the little fish has hardly left Marmalade's side-only to venture farther & farther afield but always hurries back to the safety of Marmalade's side, my tank is 8 feet long so it must seem huge to a little fish. This is quite an amazing thing to see-the two fish have bonded like long lost buddies-they obviously adore one another & the little fish is constantly trying to burrow underneath Marmalade! It's especially nice for Marmalade because he lost his lifelong friend Apricot just over 3 weeks ago so I think he has been very lonely. Even though Marmalade is not very mobile any more I often see the pair of them doing loops behind the planter-they are just playing around & it's as if Sprite has given the old fish a new lease of life. I haven't seen such fun going on for some months now-this little chap has brought the sparkle back to my tank.

      Yesterday while I was hand feeding Marmalade a pellet, Sprite came up & started pecking at my hand so I offered him one & he gladly took it. This is amazing, it took me months before my old fish would do this when I first got them yet Sprite has only been with me 11 days. Today he has been exploring the extremities of the tank & surfing the current from the  canister outlet behind the bogwood-great fun! http://smg.photobucket.com/user/mrbushy/media/Sprite%20Shooting%20The%20Rapids_zpsuvxq0nrt.mp4.html

      Sprite is the first of several unwanted streamlined Goldfish that are going to have a great new life in my tank.

        John<o)))<

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56800 From: Noura T. Date: 8/3/2015
      Subject: Re: Sprite Meets Marmalade-Introducing A New Goldfish

      That is so heartwarming to read, John! Sprite does look happy in there. He’s a lucky little fish J

       

      Noura

       

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 03 آب, 2015 01:59 ص
      To: TotallyGoldfish@yahoogroups.com; AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [AquaticLife] Sprite Meets Marmalade-Introducing A New Goldfish

       

       

      Hi Everyone,

        I introduced my new baby 'Sprite' to to my old boy 'Marmalade' last Thursday, as you can see in this video Sprite seems startled by the size of the tank he suddenly finds himself in & Marmalade comes up to greet him from behind the big planter: http://smg.photobucket.com/user/mrbushy/media/Sprite%20meets%20Marmalade_zpsqxizkcj6.mp4.html

      Since going in the little fish has hardly left Marmalade's side-only to venture farther & farther afield but always hurries back to the safety of Marmalade's side, my tank is 8 feet long so it must seem huge to a little fish. This is quite an amazing thing to see-the two fish have bonded like long lost buddies-they obviously adore one another & the little fish is constantly trying to burrow underneath Marmalade! It's especially nice for Marmalade because he lost his lifelong friend Apricot just over 3 weeks ago so I think he has been very lonely. Even though Marmalade is not very mobile any more I often see the pair of them doing loops behind the planter-they are just playing around & it's as if Sprite has given the old fish a new lease of life. I haven't seen such fun going on for some months now-this little chap has brought the sparkle back to my tank.

      Yesterday while I was hand feeding Marmalade a pellet, Sprite came up & started pecking at my hand so I offered him one & he gladly took it. This is amazing, it took me months before my old fish would do this when I first got them yet Sprite has only been with me 11 days. Today he has been exploring the extremities of the tank & surfing the current from the  canister outlet behind the bogwood-great fun! http://smg.photobucket.com/user/mrbushy/media/Sprite%20Shooting%20The%20Rapids_zpsuvxq0nrt.mp4.html

      Sprite is the first of several unwanted streamlined Goldfish that are going to have a great new life in my tank.

        John<o)))<

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56801 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 8/4/2015
      Subject: Re: Sprite Meets Marmalade-Introducing A New Goldfish
      Thanks Ray,

         The youngster is getting to know his way around the tank now & is particularly fond of swimming in & out of the tunnel just now! I plan on adding another as soon as Sprite has made himself completely at home. There's no shortage of these unfortunate fish offered on Gumtree etc & if anyone was setting up a new pond that would be an excellent way to populate it rather than buying them from the store.

        John<o)))<

      On 3 August 2015 at 03:00, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      Hi John,
       
      That was a real enjoyable read.  I'm glad to see things are going so well.  Wishing you the best for Sprite and Marmalade -- and many, many more years for the oldster.  They both deserve a good many more happy years together, as do you enjoying them.  I see you're planning on saving several other castoffs; best of luck with them all.
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 8/2/2015 6:58:53 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      ​Hi Everyone,

        I introduced my new baby 'Sprite' to to my old boy 'Marmalade' last Thursday, as you can see in this video Sprite seems startled by the size of the tank he suddenly finds himself in & Marmalade comes up to greet him from behind the big planter: http://smg.photobucket.com/user/mrbushy/media/Sprite%20meets%20Marmalade_zpsqxizkcj6.mp4.html

      Since going in the little fish has hardly left Marmalade's side-only to venture farther & farther afield but always hurries back to the safety of Marmalade's side, my tank is 8 feet long so it must seem huge to a little fish. This is quite an amazing thing to see-the two fish have bonded like long lost buddies-they obviously adore one another & the little fish is constantly trying to burrow underneath Marmalade! It's especially nice for Marmalade because he lost his lifelong friend Apricot just over 3 weeks ago so I think he has been very lonely. Even though Marmalade is not very mobile any more I often see the pair of them doing loops behind the planter-they are just playing around & it's as if Sprite has given the old fish a new lease of life. I haven't seen such fun going on for some months now-this little chap has brought the sparkle back to my tank.

      Yesterday while I was hand feeding Marmalade a pellet, Sprite came up & started pecking at my hand so I offered him one & he gladly took it. This is amazing, it took me months before my old fish would do this when I first got them yet Sprite has only been with me 11 days. Today he has been exploring the extremities of the tank & surfing the current from the  canister outlet behind the bogwood-great fun! http://smg.photobucket.com/user/mrbushy/media/Sprite%20Shooting%20The%20Rapids_zpsuvxq0nrt.mp4.html

      Sprite is the first of several unwanted streamlined Goldfish that are going to have a great new life in my tank.

        John<o)))<


      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56802 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 8/4/2015
      Subject: Re: Sprite Meets Marmalade-Introducing A New Goldfish
      Glad you liked it Noura-he's very happy in his new home, it's going to be fun adding more over the coming months.

        John<o)))<

      On 3 August 2015 at 09:30, 'Noura T.' n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      That is so heartwarming to read, John! Sprite does look happy in there. He’s a lucky little fish J

       

      Noura

       

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 03 آب, 2015 01:59 ص
      To: TotallyGoldfish@yahoogroups.com; AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [AquaticLife] Sprite Meets Marmalade-Introducing A New Goldfish

       

       

      Hi Everyone,

        I introduced my new baby 'Sprite' to to my old boy 'Marmalade' last Thursday, as you can see in this video Sprite seems startled by the size of the tank he suddenly finds himself in & Marmalade comes up to greet him from behind the big planter: http://smg.photobucket.com/user/mrbushy/media/Sprite%20meets%20Marmalade_zpsqxizkcj6.mp4.html

      Since going in the little fish has hardly left Marmalade's side-only to venture farther & farther afield but always hurries back to the safety of Marmalade's side, my tank is 8 feet long so it must seem huge to a little fish. This is quite an amazing thing to see-the two fish have bonded like long lost buddies-they obviously adore one another & the little fish is constantly trying to burrow underneath Marmalade! It's especially nice for Marmalade because he lost his lifelong friend Apricot just over 3 weeks ago so I think he has been very lonely. Even though Marmalade is not very mobile any more I often see the pair of them doing loops behind the planter-they are just playing around & it's as if Sprite has given the old fish a new lease of life. I haven't seen such fun going on for some months now-this little chap has brought the sparkle back to my tank.

      Yesterday while I was hand feeding Marmalade a pellet, Sprite came up & started pecking at my hand so I offered him one & he gladly took it. This is amazing, it took me months before my old fish would do this when I first got them yet Sprite has only been with me 11 days. Today he has been exploring the extremities of the tank & surfing the current from the  canister outlet behind the bogwood-great fun! http://smg.photobucket.com/user/mrbushy/media/Sprite%20Shooting%20The%20Rapids_zpsuvxq0nrt.mp4.html

      Sprite is the first of several unwanted streamlined Goldfish that are going to have a great new life in my tank.

        John<o)))<


      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56803 From: Angela Cancilla Herschel Date: 8/5/2015
      Subject: Re: Sprite Meets Marmalade-Introducing A New Goldfish
      Hi John, 
      This made me so happy to read !

      You know when training (all) species one of the tools used to help teach behaviors is being lucky to have another of the same or con species to show and teach by example/observing.
      So it was really no surprise by the fast learning your youngster showed.
      Believe me fish can be pretty darn smart!

      >Yesterday while I was hand feeding Marmalade a pellet, Sprite came up &
       started pecking at my hand so I offered him one & he gladly took it. This is amazing, it took me months before my old fish would do this when I first
      got them yet Sprite has only been with me 11 days. Today he has been
      exploring the extremities of the tank & surfing the current from the
      canister outlet behind the bogwood-great fun!
      http://smg.photobucket.com/user/mrbushy/media/Sprite%20Shooting%20The%20Rapids_zpsuvxq0nrt.mp4.html


      Ciao, Angela Cancilla Herschel, CPBC;   
      California
      Member:  IAABC - IAATE

      Being kind is more important ..than being important. ~

      California Wildlife Center,volunteer ~
      www.cawildlife.org

      sent from my iPhone 
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56804 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 8/6/2015
      Subject: Re: Sprite Meets Marmalade-Introducing A New Goldfish
      Hi Angela,

        I agree-he saw Marmalade happily feeding from my hand & realised it was safe!

        John<o)))<

      On 5 August 2015 at 15:46, Angela Cancilla Herschel angelasfeathers@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
       

      Hi John, 
      This made me so happy to read !

      You know when training (all) species one of the tools used to help teach behaviors is being lucky to have another of the same or con species to show and teach by example/observing.
      So it was really no surprise by the fast learning your youngster showed.
      Believe me fish can be pretty darn smart!

      >Yesterday while I was hand feeding Marmalade a pellet, Sprite came up &
       started pecking at my hand so I offered him one & he gladly took it. This is amazing, it took me months before my old fish would do this when I first
      got them yet Sprite has only been with me 11 days. Today he has been
      exploring the extremities of the tank & surfing the current from the
      canister outlet behind the bogwood-great fun!
      http://smg.photobucket.com/user/mrbushy/media/Sprite%20Shooting%20The%20Rapids_zpsuvxq0nrt.mp4.html


      Ciao, Angela Cancilla Herschel, CPBC;   
      California
      Member:  IAABC - IAATE

      Being kind is more important ..than being important. ~

      California Wildlife Center,volunteer ~
      www.cawildlife.org

      sent from my iPhone 


      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56805 From: sevenspringss Date: 8/10/2015
      Subject: Re: ALERT ! -- 75 gallon tank -- Resealing w/Silicone Sealant
      AOL Email
      All,
       
      While Rusty was suggested to use one of the small tubes of Silicone Sealant from his LFS -- because of the small size (2 gallons) of his tank not requiring a cartridge -- It was recommended (by me) to buy the larger cartridge size sealant if the job is much larger; for instance, the 75 gallon tank referred to as the origin of this thread.  I did state those 3 weeks ago that GE Silicone I Window, Door (Attic, Trim & Flashing) All Purpose Silicone Sealant is fine for this purpose, where a cartridge is needed on a larger job.  I'm glad to see that I haven't heard back from anyone on this topic, especially not with any adverse reports.  I also stated that GE Silicone II, for the same purposes (Window, Door Attic, Trim & Flashing) is fine too, as someone on here reported using that (GE Silicone II, Window & Door) several years ago.  I've only used GE Silicone I myself, with excellent results all the time. 
       
      Last week I had the opportunity to browse through all of the GE Silicone Sealants again, while in the Home Depot paint department.  THIS IS A WARNING:  GE Silicone II is labeled as "Mold-Free," meaning that this sealant is mildew-resistant (has a mold retardant) in its formula.  I don't know when its formula changed, or whether the member here who stated using it had problems afterwards which was never mentioned, but mold retardants are toxic to fish.  The formula is not as toxic as is GE Silicone designed for Kitchen & Bath or for Bathroom, Tub & Tile, but it will kill fish.  When GE Silicone Kitchen & Bath first came on the market, it was labeled (in fine print) to have arsenic as its mold retardant.  That lettering is no longer used but any mold retardant still has the same toxic effect.
       
      DO NOT USE GE Silicone II (Silicone TWO).  USE ONLY GE Silicone I (Silicone ONE) -- for Window & Door.   
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 7/19/2015 2:39:52 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, Sevenspringss1@... writes:
      Rusty,
       
      Yes, the cartridge of GE Windows & Doors Silicone Sealant is much less expensive that the same type of silicone sealant sold specifically as aquarium sealant.  You can find it at Lowes or Home Depot.  Some of the latest tubes say Clear (Silicone I) All Purpose, but also says directly underneath that, Window, Door (Attic, Trim, & Flashing).  It should not say for Kitchen & Bath nor for Bathroom, Tub & Tile.  GE Silicone II, for the same purposes, is fine too.  Not all clear silicone is the same.  Those silicone sealants designed specifically for Kitchen & Bath and for Bathroom, Tub & Tile have a mildew/mold retardant (arsenic) in them which will kill the fish if used in the aquarium.  For a 2 Gallon tank, you wouldn't need one of these large cartridges.  I believe these GE sealants come in smaller tubes, but if you can't find anything smaller, you'd do best by buying the tube sold in fish stores as aquarium sealant.  Yes, silicone sealant can be used successfully to seal metal frame -- slate bottom tanks, provided you clean the slate thoroughly with acetone and lay down a wider bead on the slate than you would along the glass; 3/4 " would not be too wide.  The one thing that can lift this sealant from slate is the suction of a water-pump-driven hose sucking the water out of such a tank this drain hose comes in contact with the sealant and you try to pull it away without shutting the pump off first.  Otherwise, I have stainless steel, slate bottom tanks that I've sealed with GE Silicone I Window & Door sealant still leak-free after sealing them 25 years ago, and they're still in use today.
       
      Ray     
       
      In a message dated 7/19/2015 1:46:07 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Is the stuff labeled “Windows and Doors’ silicone you find at the home improvement store that’s often less expensive the same stuff as what is sold specifically as aquarium sealant?

      Seems to me clear silicone would be all the same unless it’s marked ‘not for aquarium or underwater use.’

      Also, I recently purchased an old metal frame 2 gal tank that has the black (slate?) bottom that seems to have a slight leak.
      Could it be sealed successfully with silicone to adhere to the bottom?
      Thanks.

      Rusty

      On Jul 19, 2015, at 12:15 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:



      Sounds like it was meant to be an aquarium, and one that didn't require a centerbrace since the glass is thick.  This would be a good time to apply a bead of sealer around all corners, while it's dry.  As long as you don't expect rain, this would be a good outdoor project since the sealant fumes can be overbearing indoors.  Also, you'll need to clean all of the corners by wiping them thoroughly with 91% rubbing Alcohol, although acetone is even better.  This gives off fumes too, which is another good reason to do this outdoors.  Don't forget to buy the clear Windows & Doors silicone, not the Kitchen & Bath or the Bathroom Tub & Tile sealant.  
       
      Ray 
       
      In a message dated 7/19/2015 1:05:36 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

      Hi all thanks the tank was set up in a hospital for like 7 years with fish and the glass is thick. Alot of the sealer on the inside is gone so I plan on resealing it. Thanks for all the advice .


      Andy




      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56806 From: noura_taweel Date: 8/11/2015
      Subject: Dropsy
      Hi everyone,

      One of my new guppy males developed dropsy. I have been feeding with freeze-dried tubifex worms, perhaps that caused it (?)
      I have him in a 1.5 G hospital tank with 1/5 tsp of epsom salt. I fed him some mashed pees last night, which I saw him eating. He has a thin white poop now, but still has "pine" scales.

      What antibiotic can I add as well?
      I have erythromycin. Will that work?

      Thank you,
      Noura


      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56807 From: sevenspringss Date: 8/11/2015
      Subject: Re: Dropsy
      AOL Email
      Hi Noura,
       
      Sorry to hear about this latest fish issue.  Not really sure about freeze-dried tubifex worms being a cause of Dropsy, but as they're high in protein some fishes -- like Bettas and some Dwarf Cichlids (Apistogramma species) have problems digesting them and often get Dropsy as a result.  Guppies are reported to be omnivores and it's best not to feed them high protein foods consistently.
       
      Your treatment with Epsom salt is a good start, but you can increase the amount to 3/4 teaspoon -- or just add 1/2 tsp. to the 1/5 tsp. you already have in there.  That should be enough of an increase to help, if it's going to help.  Most often, when the pine-cone effect of the scales is seen, damage has already been done to the kidney's and other internal organ's but it's always worth a try to save a fish since we can't know how much (or how little) damage has been done yet if it's still early enough.  Dropsy and Bloat are two different conditions, with two different causes.
       
      Unless this is just a case of constipation though, an antibiotic needs to be used to act against the pathogen causing this condition, if we stand any chance of saving the fish.  I know that fish antibiotics are not in great supply by you, but Erythromycin does not stand much chance in addressing this issue; it's not readily absorbable (internally) at all, by the fish.  Do you have any other fish antibiotics?  Do you have any form of Kanamycin?  This medication is one of the most readily absorbable antibiotics available to treat internal bacterial infections.  The most recent findings with Dropsy though is that it can be caused by a bacteria, a virus or a parasite, with the most prevalent form now found as being that caused by a parasite.  A medication known in the States as "Clout" (in combination with Kanamycin) is by far the best treatment to be used for Dropsy if we catch it early, as it's most successful, but I know you don't have that available by you.  Raising the water temperature to 80 o F (26.6 o C) helps too.  Maybe if you had the Kanamycym, you'd have a better chance in treating it, but if Erythromycyn is all you have, use it -- it's better than nothing.  It won't hurt to use more than what's recommended on the label since it's normally less-readily absorbable anyway and a larger amount may help.
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 8/11/2015 4:40:44 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hi everyone,

      One of my new guppy males developed dropsy. I have been feeding with freeze-dried tubifex worms, perhaps that caused it (?)
      I have him in a 1.5 G hospital tank with 1/5 tsp of epsom salt. I fed him some mashed pees last night, which I saw him eating. He has a thin white poop now, but still has "pine" scales.

      What antibiotic can I add as well?
      I have erythromycin. Will that work?

      Thank you,
      Noura


      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56808 From: noura_taweel Date: 8/11/2015
      Subject: Re: Dropsy
      Hi Ray,

      Thank you for your reply.
      I realize it might be too late to save the guy, but you know me ;-)
      Would metronidazole be potentially more helpful?
      What dose should I use of the antibiotic? I have human grade medications, no instructions for fish in specific.

      I will do a PWC and ibcrease the amount of epsom salt.

      Thank you,
      Noura
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56809 From: sevenspringss Date: 8/11/2015
      Subject: Re: Dropsy
      AOL Email
      Hi Noura,
       
      Metronidazole would be excellent to treat this condition.  Of course, it would even be better if you used it with Clout, but I know that's impossible.  I didn't really think you had Metronidazole, for that matter.  As Metronidazole is another medication that's not readily absorbable by fish, if you have a fairly good supply of it that you don't feel you'll need for future treatments of other fish, you can (should) use more of this than what's recommended on the label.  With studies on Metronidazole having been done, including studies I've done myself, this medication is not harmful to fish even after using 2 1/2 X as much as recommended.  The normal recommended dosage is 250 mg per 10 gallons.  When I need to use it, I usually use it at the rate of 450 mg per 10 gallons and I've read reports of lab studies where the administrator uses 650 mg per 10 gallons.  I've found that the medication is much more effective in at least the quantity I use. 
       
      I don't know whether your container of this medication is bulk packed as one bottle of this powder or whether it's in (individual) capsule form.  The capsules contain 250 mg.  For bulk powder, there's usually a small plastic spoon that comes with it, measured at 250 mg.  As I said before, raise the temperature to 27 o C.  For a 1 1/2 gallon tank, you'd only need about 45 mg. of the medication; rounding it off so that it's easier to work with, use 50 mg for the 1 1/2 gallon tank.  That's 1/5 of one of the capsules, if your medication has been packed like that.  Break open one capsule and pour the powder onto a sheet of paper.  Divide the pile of powder into 5 equal parts, using a small knife to sweep each mini-pile from each other.  Use just one of these piles.  As for adding this medication to the aquarium, first add the powder to a cup and add a few drops of hot water to it at a time, to dissolve it.  First, it will turn into a paste with just a small amount of water, then it will thin into a solution as you add more hot water, a little at a time. after it's well dissolved you can add a bit more hot water and pour it into the tank.  Just wanted to let you know that Metronidazole is not ordinarily easy to dissolve and this method does a better job of it before dumping it into the aquarium.   
       
      Just getting back to the cause, for a second, while I pinpointed the food as possibly having too much protein -- and this can be one cause -- water conditions can also bring this on.  With your son having dumped a lot of fish food into the 6 gallon tank, unless you gave that tank a real good cleaning -- like a thorough vacuuming of the gravel -- you may have anaerobic conditions going on deep in the gravel, caused by the decomposition of this excess food by anaerobic bacteria (Aeromonas, Pseudomonas, etc.).  Whenever I see conditions like this, it appears that it can help promote other similar but pathogenic Pseudomonas bacteria, the kind of Pseudomonas bacteria that cause Dropsy.  I hope you've given this tank a good cleaning, even if you had to remove all the gravel to wash it in a bucket and then put it back, to get rid of all the excess food.  
       
      Ray
         
       
      In a message dated 8/11/2015 4:27:51 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hi Ray,

      Thank you for your reply.
      I realize it might be too late to save the guy, but you know me ;-)
      Would metronidazole be potentially more helpful?
      What dose should I use of the antibiotic? I have human grade medications, no instructions for fish in specific.

      I will do a PWC and ibcrease the amount of epsom salt.

      Thank you,
      Noura

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56810 From: noura_taweel Date: 8/12/2015
      Subject: Re: Dropsy
      Hi Ray,

      The temperature is naturally 30-32 C in my tanks these days, so we got that step already covered.

      I have as much metronidazole as I want :-)
      Regarding the dose, I will use the dose that *you* normally use (450 mg/10 Gallon), that means about 65 mg for my 1.5 Gallon tank. They come in 250 mg and 500 mg tablets. I will do my calculations :-)

      As for the "accident" that my son caused a couple of weeks ago; I had removed the fish from their 6 G immediately, broke down the tank, and gave everything a thorough washing. It became completely clean and crystal clear. I ran the filter in the emergency tank with the guppies for 48 hours to keep it cycled, then I took the fish and filter back to the clean 6 G.  We have a dozen of fry growing in the incubator inside that 6 G at the moment, and a couple of adult guppies.

      I hope the treatment will be successful this time. I haven't had much luck with my recent sick fish.

      Many thanks,
      Noura
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56811 From: noura_taweel Date: 8/12/2015
      Subject: Re: Dropsy
      Ok, it's done. I crushed the 250 mg tablet really well with a mortar and pestel, dissolved it in 10 ml of water, and took 2.5 ml with a syringe and dumped in the 1.5 G.
      I can see it has been well dissolved in the tank water too. It's cloudy and no powder fell to the bottom :-)
       I will renew with each large PWC.

      All the best,
      Noura
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56812 From: sevenspringss Date: 8/12/2015
      Subject: Re: Dropsy
      AOL Email
      Hi Noura,
       
      Just wanted to tell you that treating for Dropsy usually isn't met with much success.  What you see as the scales "pineconing" isn't the disease itself, but the aftereffects of the internal damage that has already been done.  Often, by the time we seen the scales standing out from the body, too much damage has often been done, which is irreversible.  So, unlike other diseases which you've treated for, you can't expect very much for a successful recovery, but as I first said, it's always worth a try to save a fish -- and the antibiotics specified are the few that will help bring about a recovery IF the damage hasn't been too severe (which we have no way of knowing the extent of).  So, in other words, while you're doing the right things, don't get your hopes up too high.  The survival rate after the "pineconing" becomes apparent isn't very great.  Best of luck!
       
       Ray
        
       
      In a message dated 8/12/2015 3:45:56 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hi Ray,

      The temperature is naturally 30-32 C in my tanks these days, so we got that step already covered.

      I have as much metronidazole as I want :-)
      Regarding the dose, I will use the dose that *you* normally use (450 mg/10 Gallon), that means about 65 mg for my 1.5 Gallon tank. They come in 250 mg and 500 mg tablets. I will do my calculations :-)

      As for the "accident" that my son caused a couple of weeks ago; I had removed the fish from their 6 G immediately, broke down the tank, and gave everything a thorough washing. It became completely clean and crystal clear. I ran the filter in the emergency tank with the guppies for 48 hours to keep it cycled, then I took the fish and filter back to the clean 6 G.  We have a dozen of fry growing in the incubator inside that 6 G at the moment, and a couple of adult guppies.

      I hope the treatment will be successful this time. I haven't had much luck with my recent sick fish.

      Many thanks,
      Noura

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56813 From: sevenspringss Date: 8/12/2015
      Subject: Re: Dropsy
      AOL Email
      Looks good; I hope it works.
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 8/12/2015 3:47:54 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Ok, it's done. I crushed the 250 mg tablet really well with a mortar and pestel, dissolved it in 10 ml of water, and took 2.5 ml with a syringe and dumped in the 1.5 G.
      I can see it has been well dissolved in the tank water too. It's cloudy and no powder fell to the bottom :-)
       I will renew with each large PWC.

      All the best,
      Noura

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56814 From: Rusty Barfield Date: 8/12/2015
      Subject: Re: ALERT ! -- 75 gallon tank -- Resealing w/Silicone Sealant
      Hi Ray,

      Thank you for the additional clarification and tips on silicone sealants.
      I have not yet tackled this mini project but will be soon hopefully.

      I have had a sort of affinity for these vintage metal frame tanks as my very first aquarium as a kid was a metal framed ten gallon I received as a gift.
      I’m looking forward to sealing it and setting up a mini aquascape.

      Rusty

      On Aug 10, 2015, at 2:18 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:



      All,
       
      While Rusty was suggested to use one of the small tubes of Silicone Sealant from his LFS -- because of the small size (2 gallons) of his tank not requiring a cartridge -- It was recommended (by me) to buy the larger cartridge size sealant if the job is much larger; for instance, the 75 gallon tank referred to as the origin of this thread.  I did state those 3 weeks ago that GE Silicone I Window, Door (Attic, Trim & Flashing) All Purpose Silicone Sealant is fine for this purpose, where a cartridge is needed on a larger job.  I'm glad to see that I haven't heard back from anyone on this topic, especially not with any adverse reports.  I also stated that GE Silicone II, for the same purposes (Window, Door Attic, Trim & Flashing) is fine too, as someone on here reported using that (GE Silicone II, Window & Door) several years ago.  I've only used GE Silicone I myself, with excellent results all the time.  
       
      Last week I had the opportunity to browse through all of the GE Silicone Sealants again, while in the Home Depot paint department.  THIS IS A WARNING:  GE Silicone II is labeled as "Mold-Free," meaning that this sealant is mildew-resistant (has a mold retardant) in its formula.  I don't know when its formula changed, or whether the member here who stated using it had problems afterwards which was never mentioned, but mold retardants are toxic to fish.  The formula is not as toxic as is GE Silicone designed for Kitchen & Bath or for Bathroom, Tub & Tile, but it will kill fish.  When GE Silicone Kitchen & Bath first came on the market, it was labeled (in fine print) to have arsenic as its mold retardant.  That lettering is no longer used but any mold retardant still has the same toxic effect.
       
      DO NOT USE GE Silicone II (Silicone TWO).  USE ONLY GE Silicone I (Silicone ONE) -- for Window & Door.   
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 7/19/2015 2:39:52 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, Sevenspringss1@... writes:
      Rusty,
       
      Yes, the cartridge of GE Windows & Doors Silicone Sealant is much less expensive that the same type of silicone sealant sold specifically as aquarium sealant.  You can find it at Lowes or Home Depot.  Some of the latest tubes say Clear (Silicone I) All Purpose, but also says directly underneath that, Window, Door (Attic, Trim, & Flashing).  It should not say for Kitchen & Bath nor for Bathroom, Tub & Tile.  GE Silicone II, for the same purposes, is fine too.  Not all clear silicone is the same.  Those silicone sealants designed specifically for Kitchen & Bath and for Bathroom, Tub & Tile have a mildew/mold retardant (arsenic) in them which will kill the fish if used in the aquarium.  For a 2 Gallon tank, you wouldn't need one of these large cartridges.  I believe these GE sealants come in smaller tubes, but if you can't find anything smaller, you'd do best by buying the tube sold in fish stores as aquarium sealant.  Yes, silicone sealant can be used successfully to seal metal frame -- slate bottom tanks, provided you clean the slate thoroughly with acetone and lay down a wider bead on the slate than you would along the glass; 3/4 " would not be too wide.  The one thing that can lift this sealant from slate is the suction of a water-pump-driven hose sucking the water out of such a tank this drain hose comes in contact with the sealant and you try to pull it away without shutting the pump off first.  Otherwise, I have stainless steel, slate bottom tanks that I've sealed with GE Silicone I Window & Door sealant still leak-free after sealing them 25 years ago, and they're still in use today.
       
      Ray      
       
      In a message dated 7/19/2015 1:46:07 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

      Is the stuff labeled “Windows and Doors’ silicone you find at the home improvement store that’s often less expensive the same stuff as what is sold specifically as aquarium sealant? 

      Seems to me clear silicone would be all the same unless it’s marked ‘not for aquarium or underwater use.’

      Also, I recently purchased an old metal frame 2 gal tank that has the black (slate?) bottom that seems to have a slight leak.
      Could it be sealed successfully with silicone to adhere to the bottom?
      Thanks.

      Rusty

      On Jul 19, 2015, at 12:15 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:



      Sounds like it was meant to be an aquarium, and one that didn't require a centerbrace since the glass is thick.  This would be a good time to apply a bead of sealer around all corners, while it's dry.  As long as you don't expect rain, this would be a good outdoor project since the sealant fumes can be overbearing indoors.  Also, you'll need to clean all of the corners by wiping them thoroughly with 91% rubbing Alcohol, although acetone is even better.  This gives off fumes too, which is another good reason to do this outdoors.  Don't forget to buy the clear Windows & Doors silicone, not the Kitchen & Bath or the Bathroom Tub & Tile sealant.  
       
      Ray 
       
      In a message dated 7/19/2015 1:05:36 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

      Hi all thanks the tank was set up in a hospital for like 7 years with fish and the glass is thick. Alot of the sealer on the inside is gone so I plan on resealing it. Thanks for all the advice .


      Andy








      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56815 From: sevenspringss Date: 8/12/2015
      Subject: Re: ALERT ! -- 75 gallon tank -- Resealing w/Silicone Sealant
      AOL Email
      Hi Rusty,
       
      I like the looks of these stainless steel frame aquariums, besides which they're sturdy and if you accidentally hit one of the corners into something hard while cleaning one in a utility tub, the glass won't chip in that corner.  I too was given one as a gift when I was a kid -- a 20 gallon high -- and I'm still using it, and 89 others of all sizes.  Wishing you luck on your project.  With the small size that it is, it shouldn't take very long at all.  BTW, I don't know if I mentioned it, but wear a pair of latex gloves if you can get them.  You can then use your finger to smooth out a nice bead down all of the angles of the tank and the sealant won't still be clinging to your fingers two weeks from now < g >.  Otherwise, it doesn't come off your hands that easily except to wear off over time. 
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 8/12/2015 9:52:25 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hi Ray,


      Thank you for the additional clarification and tips on silicone sealants.
      I have not yet tackled this mini project but will be soon hopefully.

      I have had a sort of affinity for these vintage metal frame tanks as my very first aquarium as a kid was a metal framed ten gallon I received as a gift.
      I’m looking forward to sealing it and setting up a mini aquascape.

      Rusty

      On Aug 10, 2015, at 2:18 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:



      All,
       
      While Rusty was suggested to use one of the small tubes of Silicone Sealant from his LFS -- because of the small size (2 gallons) of his tank not requiring a cartridge -- It was recommended (by me) to buy the larger cartridge size sealant if the job is much larger; for instance, the 75 gallon tank referred to as the origin of this thread.  I did state those 3 weeks ago that GE Silicone I Window, Door (Attic, Trim & Flashing) All Purpose Silicone Sealant is fine for this purpose, where a cartridge is needed on a larger job.  I'm glad to see that I haven't heard back from anyone on this topic, especially not with any adverse reports.  I also stated that GE Silicone II, for the same purposes (Window, Door Attic, Trim & Flashing) is fine too, as someone on here reported using that (GE Silicone II, Window & Door) several years ago.  I've only used GE Silicone I myself, with excellent results all the time.  
       
      Last week I had the opportunity to browse through all of the GE Silicone Sealants again, while in the Home Depot paint department.  THIS IS A WARNING:  GE Silicone II is labeled as "Mold-Free," meaning that this sealant is mildew-resistant (has a mold retardant) in its formula.  I don't know when its formula changed, or whether the member here who stated using it had problems afterwards which was never mentioned, but mold retardants are toxic to fish.  The formula is not as toxic as is GE Silicone designed for Kitchen & Bath or for Bathroom, Tub & Tile, but it will kill fish.  When GE Silicone Kitchen & Bath first came on the market, it was labeled (in fine print) to have arsenic as its mold retardant.  That lettering is no longer used but any mold retardant still has the same toxic effect.
       
      DO NOT USE GE Silicone II (Silicone TWO).  USE ONLY GE Silicone I (Silicone ONE) -- for Window & Door.   
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 7/19/2015 2:39:52 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, Sevenspringss1@... writes:
      Rusty,
       
      Yes, the cartridge of GE Windows & Doors Silicone Sealant is much less expensive that the same type of silicone sealant sold specifically as aquarium sealant.  You can find it at Lowes or Home Depot.  Some of the latest tubes say Clear (Silicone I) All Purpose, but also says directly underneath that, Window, Door (Attic, Trim, & Flashing).  It should not say for Kitchen & Bath nor for Bathroom, Tub & Tile.  GE Silicone II, for the same purposes, is fine too.  Not all clear silicone is the same.  Those silicone sealants designed specifically for Kitchen & Bath and for Bathroom, Tub & Tile have a mildew/mold retardant (arsenic) in them which will kill the fish if used in the aquarium.  For a 2 Gallon tank, you wouldn't need one of these large cartridges.  I believe these GE sealants come in smaller tubes, but if you can't find anything smaller, you'd do best by buying the tube sold in fish stores as aquarium sealant.  Yes, silicone sealant can be used successfully to seal metal frame -- slate bottom tanks, provided you clean the slate thoroughly with acetone and lay down a wider bead on the slate than you would along the glass; 3/4 " would not be too wide.  The one thing that can lift this sealant from slate is the suction of a water-pump-driven hose sucking the water out of such a tank this drain hose comes in contact with the sealant and you try to pull it away without shutting the pump off first.  Otherwise, I have stainless steel, slate bottom tanks that I've sealed with GE Silicone I Window & Door sealant still leak-free after sealing them 25 years ago, and they're still in use today.
       
      Ray      
       
      In a message dated 7/19/2015 1:46:07 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

      Is the stuff labeled “Windows and Doors’ silicone you find at the home improvement store that’s often less expensive the same stuff as what is sold specifically as aquarium sealant? 

      Seems to me clear silicone would be all the same unless it’s marked ‘not for aquarium or underwater use.’

      Also, I recently purchased an old metal frame 2 gal tank that has the black (slate?) bottom that seems to have a slight leak.
      Could it be sealed successfully with silicone to adhere to the bottom?
      Thanks.

      Rusty

      On Jul 19, 2015, at 12:15 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:



      Sounds like it was meant to be an aquarium, and one that didn't require a centerbrace since the glass is thick.  This would be a good time to apply a bead of sealer around all corners, while it's dry.  As long as you don't expect rain, this would be a good outdoor project since the sealant fumes can be overbearing indoors.  Also, you'll need to clean all of the corners by wiping them thoroughly with 91% rubbing Alcohol, although acetone is even better.  This gives off fumes too, which is another good reason to do this outdoors.  Don't forget to buy the clear Windows & Doors silicone, not the Kitchen & Bath or the Bathroom Tub & Tile sealant.  
       
      Ray 
       
      In a message dated 7/19/2015 1:05:36 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

      Hi all thanks the tank was set up in a hospital for like 7 years with fish and the glass is thick. Alot of the sealer on the inside is gone so I plan on resealing it. Thanks for all the advice .


      Andy








      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56816 From: Noura T. Date: 8/12/2015
      Subject: Re: Dropsy

      Hi Ray,

       

      I started to forget that fact. I will do what I can though J

       

      He seems pretty active and constantly looking for food. Should I be feeding him the regular amount of flakes, or less?

       

      Thanks for your constant help

       

      Noura

       

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 12 آب, 2015 12:51 م
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Dropsy

       

       

      Hi Noura,

       

      Just wanted to tell you that treating for Dropsy usually isn't met with much success.  What you see as the scales "pineconing" isn't the disease itself, but the aftereffects of the internal damage that has already been done.  Often, by the time we seen the scales standing out from the body, too much damage has often been done, which is irreversible.  So, unlike other diseases which you've treated for, you can't expect very much for a successful recovery, but as I first said, it's always worth a try to save a fish -- and the antibiotics specified are the few that will help bring about a recovery IF the damage hasn't been too severe (which we have no way of knowing the extent of).  So, in other words, while you're doing the right things, don't get your hopes up too high.  The survival rate after the "pineconing" becomes apparent isn't very great.  Best of luck!

       

       Ray

        

       

      In a message dated 8/12/2015 3:45:56 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

       

      Hi Ray,

      The temperature is naturally 30-32 C in my tanks these days, so we got that step already covered.

      I have as much metronidazole as I want :-)
      Regarding the dose, I will use the dose that *you* normally use (450 mg/10 Gallon), that means about 65 mg for my 1.5 Gallon tank. They come in 250 mg and 500 mg tablets. I will do my calculations :-)

      As for the "accident" that my son caused a couple of weeks ago; I had removed the fish from their 6 G immediately, broke down the tank, and gave everything a thorough washing. It became completely clean and crystal clear. I ran the filter in the emergency tank with the guppies for 48 hours to keep it cycled, then I took the fish and filter back to the clean 6 G.  We have a dozen of fry growing in the incubator inside that 6 G at the moment, and a couple of adult guppies.

      I hope the treatment will be successful this time. I haven't had much luck with my recent sick fish.

      Many thanks,
      Noura

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56817 From: sevenspringss Date: 8/12/2015
      Subject: Re: Dropsy
      AOL Email
      Hi Noura,
       
      Most often, if I recall right, fish with Dropsy don't have an appetite, and are not very active.  Are his scales still sticking out?  Maybe he just had a case of the Bloat from indigestion(?). 
       
      In any case, you can feed him (flakes) but less than normal at this time, unless he still appears bloated.
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 8/12/2015 10:38:03 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hi Ray,

      I started to forget that fact. I will do what I can though J

      He seems pretty active and constantly looking for food. Should I be feeding him the regular amount of flakes, or less?

      Thanks for your constant help

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 12 آب, 2015 12:51 م
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Dropsy

       

      Hi Noura,

      Just wanted to tell you that treating for Dropsy usually isn't met with much success.  What you see as the scales "pineconing" isn't the disease itself, but the aftereffects of the internal damage that has already been done.  Often, by the time we seen the scales standing out from the body, too much damage has often been done, which is irreversible.  So, unlike other diseases which you've treated for, you can't expect very much for a successful recovery, but as I first said, it's always worth a try to save a fish -- and the antibiotics specified are the few that will help bring about a recovery IF the damage hasn't been too severe (which we have no way of knowing the extent of).  So, in other words, while you're doing the right things, don't get your hopes up too high.  The survival rate after the "pineconing" becomes apparent isn't very great.  Best of luck!

       Ray

        

      In a message dated 8/12/2015 3:45:56 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

       

      Hi Ray,

      The temperature is naturally 30-32 C in my tanks these days, so we got that step already covered.

      I have as much metronidazole as I want :-)
      Regarding the dose, I will use the dose that *you* normally use (450 mg/10 Gallon), that means about 65 mg for my 1.5 Gallon tank. They come in 250 mg and 500 mg tablets. I will do my calculations :-)

      As for the "accident" that my son caused a couple of weeks ago; I had removed the fish from their 6 G immediately, broke down the tank, and gave everything a thorough washing. It became completely clean and crystal clear. I ran the filter in the emergency tank with the guppies for 48 hours to keep it cycled, then I took the fish and filter back to the clean 6 G.  We have a dozen of fry growing in the incubator inside that 6 G at the moment, and a couple of adult guppies.

      I hope the treatment will be successful this time. I haven't had much luck with my recent sick fish.

      Many thanks,
      Noura

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56818 From: noura_taweel Date: 8/12/2015
      Subject: Re: Dropsy
      Hi Ray,

      Yes his scales are still sticking out. And he looks bloated. He only had pees yesterday. And today I give him his first flakes since 48 hours. Yet, I can only see very few poops. So I'm not sure if he's constipated or not as well.

      He is quite active for his condition, but not as active as a healthy guppy. I managed to take a relatively clear  photo of him, it should appear in my album once you approve it:
      https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/AquaticLife/photos/albums/1956468285

       

      Many thanks,

      Noura
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56819 From: sevenspringss Date: 8/12/2015
      Subject: Re: Dropsy
      AOL Email
       
       
      In a message dated 8/12/2015 3:29:05 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hi Ray,

      Yes his scales are still sticking out. And he looks bloated. He only had pees yesterday. And today I give him his first flakes since 48 hours. Yet, I can only see very few poops. So I'm not sure if he's constipated or not as well.

      He is quite active for his condition, but not as active as a healthy guppy. I managed to take a relatively clear  photo of him, it should appear in my album once you approve it:
      https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/AquaticLife/photos/albums/1956468285

       

      Many thanks,

      Noura

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56820 From: sevenspringss Date: 8/12/2015
      Subject: Re: Dropsy
      AOL Email
      Hi Noura,
       
      With his scales sticking out, he definitely has Dropsy.  As the kidney receives damage from the pathogen, fluid builds up in the tissues giving the fish the bloated appearance.  If there are very few poops, he could be constipated as well, unless you've just missed seeing them.  The peas should help his constipation as this is the second day he's eaten them.  I guess only time will tell if he survives; keeping up with the Epsom salt and medication after each PWC is about all you can do for him.
       
      Ray
           
       
      In a message dated 8/12/2015 3:29:05 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hi Ray,

      Yes his scales are still sticking out. And he looks bloated. He only had pees yesterday. And today I give him his first flakes since 48 hours. Yet, I can only see very few poops. So I'm not sure if he's constipated or not as well.

      He is quite active for his condition, but not as active as a healthy guppy. I managed to take a relatively clear  photo of him, it should appear in my album once you approve it:
      https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/AquaticLife/photos/albums/1956468285

       

      Many thanks,

      Noura

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56821 From: Noura T. Date: 8/12/2015
      Subject: Re: Dropsy

      Hi Ray,

       

      So I should give him more peas?
      Yes I’m sure he only had very few poops, and they are white and thin as mentioned earlier, but not as long as you would see with parasites I think. It’s a bare bottom tank, I can see clearly.

       

      P.S: sorry about the horrible typo! Pees?!!! Oh boy…

       

       

      Noura

       

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 12 آب, 2015 10:50 م
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Dropsy

       

       

      Hi Noura,

       

      With his scales sticking out, he definitely has Dropsy.  As the kidney receives damage from the pathogen, fluid builds up in the tissues giving the fish the bloated appearance.  If there are very few poops, he could be constipated as well, unless you've just missed seeing them.  The peas should help his constipation as this is the second day he's eaten them.  I guess only time will tell if he survives; keeping up with the Epsom salt and medication after each PWC is about all you can do for him.

       

      Ray

           

       

      In a message dated 8/12/2015 3:29:05 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

       

      Hi Ray,

      Yes his scales are still sticking out. And he looks bloated. He only had pees yesterday. And today I give him his first flakes since 48 hours. Yet, I can only see very few poops. So I'm not sure if he's constipated or not as well.

      He is quite active for his condition, but not as active as a healthy guppy. I managed to take a relatively clear  photo of him, it should appear in my album once you approve it:
      https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/AquaticLife/photos/albums/1956468285

       

      Many thanks,

      Noura

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56822 From: Trevor Holyoak Date: 8/12/2015
      Subject: Re: Dropsy
      I was wondering how you could tell it had been peeing... :)

      'Noura T.' n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] wrote:
      P.S: sorry about the horrible typo! Pees?!!! Oh boy…
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56823 From: sevenspringss Date: 8/12/2015
      Subject: Re: Dropsy
      AOL Email
      I think at this stage, and the fact he isn't releasing a lot of poop,
      it wouldn't hurt at all to give him peas again tomorrow.
       
      The white & thin description does sound like parasites,
      although I don't think that this it what it could appear to be either.
       
      With the parasite, Hexamita as an example, the white thin feces is really part of the stomach lining,
      which the parasite has eaten away.  In the case of Dropsy, it's caused by a anaerobic pathogens (bacteria),
      of the genera Pseudomonas and Aeromonas, which I don't believe affects the digestive system in
      just this same way.  The Metronidazole should address this if he doesn't seccumb to the Dropsy.
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 8/12/2015 4:44:42 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Hi Ray,

      So I should give him more peas?
      Yes I’m sure he only had very few poops, and they are white and thin as mentioned earlier, but not as long as you would see with parasites I think. It’s a bare bottom tank, I can see clearly.

      P.S: sorry about the horrible typo! Pees?!!! Oh boy…

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 12 آب, 2015 10:50 م
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Dropsy

       

      Hi Noura,

      With his scales sticking out, he definitely has Dropsy.  As the kidney receives damage from the pathogen, fluid builds up in the tissues giving the fish the bloated appearance.  If there are very few poops, he could be constipated as well, unless you've just missed seeing them.  The peas should help his constipation as this is the second day he's eaten them.  I guess only time will tell if he survives; keeping up with the Epsom salt and medication after each PWC is about all you can do for him.

      Ray

           

      In a message dated 8/12/2015 3:29:05 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

       

      Hi Ray,

      Yes his scales are still sticking out. And he looks bloated. He only had pees yesterday. And today I give him his first flakes since 48 hours. Yet, I can only see very few poops. So I'm not sure if he's constipated or not as well.

      He is quite active for his condition, but not as active as a healthy guppy. I managed to take a relatively clear  photo of him, it should appear in my album once you approve it:
      https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/AquaticLife/photos/albums/1956468285

      Many thanks,

      Noura

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56824 From: sevenspringss Date: 8/12/2015
      Subject: Re: Dropsy
      AOL Email
      I don't think there's any way of knowing if this fish (or any fish) has been peeing.
       
      Don't be concerned about the minor typo; I've seen much worse, and as the two words are similar,
      it's quite excusable.  We all make them.
       
      Ray
       
       
      In a message dated 8/12/2015 4:57:26 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      I was wondering how you could tell it had been peeing... :)

      'Noura T.' n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] wrote:

      P.S: sorry about the horrible typo! Pees?!!! Oh boy…

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56825 From: Noura T. Date: 8/14/2015
      Subject: Re: Dropsy

      Thank you Ray. He only had PeAs yesterday, I’ll give him a bit of flakes today.

      I’m doing daily 90% water changes, renewing Epsom salt and metronidazole with each change. Temp at 30 C.

      I read they could go for a week or two like that before dying, if he is going to die.  So I guess it’s a waiting game now.

       

      Noura

       

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 13 آب, 2015 12:09 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Dropsy

       

       

      I think at this stage, and the fact he isn't releasing a lot of poop,

      it wouldn't hurt at all to give him peas again tomorrow.

       

      The white & thin description does sound like parasites,

      although I don't think that this it what it could appear to be either.

       

      With the parasite, Hexamita as an example, the white thin feces is really part of the stomach lining,

      which the parasite has eaten away.  In the case of Dropsy, it's caused by a anaerobic pathogens (bacteria),

      of the genera Pseudomonas and Aeromonas, which I don't believe affects the digestive system in

      just this same way.  The Metronidazole should address this if he doesn't seccumb to the Dropsy.

       

      Ray

       

       

      In a message dated 8/12/2015 4:44:42 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

       

      Hi Ray,

      So I should give him more peas?
      Yes I’m sure he only had very few poops, and they are white and thin as mentioned earlier, but not as long as you would see with parasites I think. It’s a bare bottom tank, I can see clearly.

      P.S: sorry about the horrible typo! Pees?!!! Oh boy…

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 12 آب, 2015 10:50 م
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Dropsy

       

      Hi Noura,

      With his scales sticking out, he definitely has Dropsy.  As the kidney receives damage from the pathogen, fluid builds up in the tissues giving the fish the bloated appearance.  If there are very few poops, he could be constipated as well, unless you've just missed seeing them.  The peas should help his constipation as this is the second day he's eaten them.  I guess only time will tell if he survives; keeping up with the Epsom salt and medication after each PWC is about all you can do for him.

      Ray

           

      In a message dated 8/12/2015 3:29:05 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

       

      Hi Ray,

      Yes his scales are still sticking out. And he looks bloated. He only had pees yesterday. And today I give him his first flakes since 48 hours. Yet, I can only see very few poops. So I'm not sure if he's constipated or not as well.

      He is quite active for his condition, but not as active as a healthy guppy. I managed to take a relatively clear  photo of him, it should appear in my album once you approve it:
      https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/AquaticLife/photos/albums/1956468285

      Many thanks,

      Noura

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56826 From: sevenspringss Date: 8/14/2015
      Subject: Re: Dropsy
      AOL Email
      Hi Noura,
       
      Looks like you're doing everything right.  Yes, time will tell what the outcome will be. 
      You're doing all you can do.
       
      Ray
       
      In a message dated 8/14/2015 7:26:31 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
       

      Thank you Ray. He only had PeAs yesterday, I’ll give him a bit of flakes today.

      I’m doing daily 90% water changes, renewing Epsom salt and metronidazole with each change. Temp at 30 C.

      I read they could go for a week or two like that before dying, if he is going to die.  So I guess it’s a waiting game now.

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 13 آب, 2015 12:09 ص
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Dropsy

       

      I think at this stage, and the fact he isn't releasing a lot of poop,

      it wouldn't hurt at all to give him peas again tomorrow.

      The white & thin description does sound like parasites,

      although I don't think that this it what it could appear to be either.

      With the parasite, Hexamita as an example, the white thin feces is really part of the stomach lining,

      which the parasite has eaten away.  In the case of Dropsy, it's caused by a anaerobic pathogens (bacteria),

      of the genera Pseudomonas and Aeromonas, which I don't believe affects the digestive system in

      just this same way.  The Metronidazole should address this if he doesn't seccumb to the Dropsy.

      Ray

      In a message dated 8/12/2015 4:44:42 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

       

      Hi Ray,

      So I should give him more peas?
      Yes I’m sure he only had very few poops, and they are white and thin as mentioned earlier, but not as long as you would see with parasites I think. It’s a bare bottom tank, I can see clearly.

      P.S: sorry about the horrible typo! Pees?!!! Oh boy…

      Noura

      From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: 12 آب, 2015 10:50 م
      To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Dropsy

       

      Hi Noura,

      With his scales sticking out, he definitely has Dropsy.  As the kidney receives damage from the pathogen, fluid builds up in the tissues giving the fish the bloated appearance.  If there are very few poops, he could be constipated as well, unless you've just missed seeing them.  The peas should help his constipation as this is the second day he's eaten them.  I guess only time will tell if he survives; keeping up with the Epsom salt and medication after each PWC is about all you can do for him.

      Ray

           

      In a message dated 8/12/2015 3:29:05 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

       

      Hi Ray,

      Yes his scales are still sticking out. And he looks bloated. He only had pees yesterday. And today I give him his first flakes since 48 hours. Yet, I can only see very few poops. So I'm not sure if he's constipated or not as well.

      He is quite active for his condition, but not as active as a healthy guppy. I managed to take a relatively clear  photo of him, it should appear in my album once you approve it:
      https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/AquaticLife/photos/albums/1956468285

      Many thanks,

      Noura

      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56827 From: Andy Mills Date: 8/27/2015
      Subject: Does anyone know anything about these snails
      Hi, just wondering if anyone knows or could give me some information
      about these snails.

      http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SULAWESI-YELLOW-DIAMOND-NERITE-SNAIL-1-5CM-ALGAE-EATER-/271161887160

      To be honest I'm a bit confused as to what they actually are. SULAWESI
      snails are usually quite big, long shaped snails, here in the UK they're
      usually called rabbit snails in the shops. I've been keeping a couple
      of types now for a couple of years and they've been doing really well
      and breeding like, well, rabbits! NERITE snails are usually fairly
      small, slow moving (even for snails!) like zebras, onion snails, etc
      which don't breed in freshwater. These snails I want to know about
      don't really look that much like either, the description describes them
      as being like a zebra snail with regard to care requirements but I can't
      seem to find anything about them, maybe they go other another name or
      are a relatively unknown species. If I could find out more about them I
      may consider getting some but would really like to know a bit more, in
      the past as I say I've had really good success with the rabbit snails
      but the zebras I've had haven't done too well, so I'd want to know more
      about these before I paid out a lot of money to get them and then found
      they didn't do well. The name given seems to me to be a bit
      contradictory and the look of them doesn't really correspond to either
      type, so any information would be really helpful.
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56828 From: Dawn Moneyhan Date: 8/31/2015
      Subject: Re: Does anyone know anything about these snails
      Do a google search for "Nerita natalensis" and you should find the information you're looking for.  Those are a true nerite so will be more like the zebras, not the rabbits.  I've had them, always had good luck with nerites and those were no exception. 
      Hope this helps.

      Dawn


       
      Dawn Moneyhan
      Aquatics Specialist/Nutritionist
      To learn more about me go to
      http://www.helium.com/users/449334
      Group: AquaticLife Message: 56829 From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: 11/3/2015
      Subject: AquaticLife Yahoo! Fish Group ~ Founded: Nov 4, 2002, Wednesday, 04
      Attachments :
        "AquaticLife Yahoo! Fish Group ~ Founded: Nov 4, 2002" reminder
        When
        Wednesday, 04 November 2015
        12:00 AM to 12:00 AM
        (GMT) Greenwich Mean Time - Dublin / Edinburgh / Lisbon / London
        Where
        http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/AquaticLife/message/31
        Notes
        Add a Friend @ MySpace.com/AquaticLifeGroup ~ AquaticLife ~ the #1 Yahoo! Fish Group, was Originally Named "FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium" Group Name Officially Changed on: Friday, January 28th, 2005 ~ Moderator Activity 1771-1800 of 21521 Jan 28, 2005 8:36 pm Edit (Changed name: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium -> AquaticLife) by tropicalfishman ~ Message #8138 New Group Name - AquaticLife This message is to Notify all members of the group address change. Previous Group Name: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium New Group Name: AquaticLife New Email Address: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com New Web Address: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AquaticLife Please update any Links and Bookmarks with the new name. Thank You ~ Message #8137 [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium group name change Hello, The moderator of the FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium group has changed the group's name to AquaticLife. This means that both the group's email address and the group home page location have changed. The group email address: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com The group home page location: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AquaticLife If you have links which point to this group or an address book entry for the group, you should update them, as the old addresses will no longer work. Regards, Yahoo! Groups Customer Care ~ Message #8140 Fri Jan 28, 2005 8:36 pm [AquaticLife] FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium group name/addresses have changed Hello, The moderator of the FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium group has changed the group's name. ~ Jan 29, 2005 3:21 am Changed category by tropicalfishman ~ Message #8145 New Group Category: Fish We are now the Largest of all Yahoo! Fish Groups. Old Category - Top > Hobbies & Crafts > Hobbies > Aquariums NEW Category - Top > Science > Biology > Animals > Marine Life > Fish
        From
        AquaticLife   Calendar
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56830 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 11/4/2015
        Subject: Re: AquaticLife Yahoo! Fish Group ~ Founded: Nov 4, 2002, Wednesday,

        Hi Everyone,

         The group's birthday message reminder was the first post for almost three months-I guess the age of the internet forums has well & truly died now with the  all pervasive Facebook & other social networking media taking over. Such a shame as I used to enjoy the banter & interaction on here together with several other fish & non-fish related forums that I am also a member of & which unfortunately have dried up to almost nothing now.

        Hope everyone's ok & your critters are thriving-how are you Noura, I do hope things are improving for you in your part of the world.

        John<o)))<

         

        On 03 November 2015 at 12:01 AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com wrote:

         

         

        "AquaticLife Yahoo! Fish Group ~ Founded: Nov 4, 2002" reminder
        When
        Wednesday, 04 November 2015
        12:00 AM to 12:00 AM
        (GMT) Greenwich Mean Time - Dublin / Edinburgh / Lisbon / London
        Where
        http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/AquaticLife/message/31
        Notes
        Add a Friend @ MySpace.com/AquaticLifeGroup ~ AquaticLife ~ the #1 Yahoo! Fish Group, was Originally Named "FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium" Group Name Officially Changed on: Friday, January 28th, 2005 ~ Moderator Activity 1771-1800 of 21521 Jan 28, 2005 8:36 pm Edit (Changed name: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium -> AquaticLife) by tropicalfishman ~ Message #8138 New Group Name - AquaticLife This message is to Notify all members of the group address change. Previous Group Name: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium New Group Name: AquaticLife New Email Address: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com New Web Address: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AquaticLife Please update any Links and Bookmarks with the new name. Thank You ~ Message #8137 [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium group name change Hello, The moderator of the FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium group has changed the group's name to AquaticLife. This means that both the group's email address and the group home page location have changed. The group email address: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com The group home page location: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AquaticLife If you have links which point to this group or an address book entry for the group, you should update them, as the old addresses will no longer work. Regards, Yahoo! Groups Customer Care ~ Message #8140 Fri Jan 28, 2005 8:36 pm [AquaticLife] FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium group name/addresses have changed Hello, The moderator of the FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium group has changed the group's name. ~ Jan 29, 2005 3:21 am Changed category by tropicalfishman ~ Message #8145 New Group Category: Fish We are now the Largest of all Yahoo! Fish Groups. Old Category - Top > Hobbies Crafts > Hobbies > Aquariums NEW Category - Top > Science > Biology > Animals > Marine Life > Fish
        From
        AquaticLife   Calendar

         


         


         

        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56831 From: Noura T. Date: 11/4/2015
        Subject: Re: AquaticLife Yahoo! Fish Group ~ Founded: Nov 4, 2002, Wednesday,
        Hi John and everyone!

        This was the best fish group with the kindest experts who offered priceless support.



        I’m fine, things in the country are still in flame and smoke… fish are slightly less in number (3 adults and over a dozen of juvenile guppies), but generally okay.



        It would be great if the moderators of this group choose to keep up with the change, and establish a FB group. The quick interaction and ability to share photos and videos easily are a big advantage.



        All the best,

        Noura



        From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
        Sent: 04 تشرين الثاني, 2015 01:24 م
        To: aquaticlife
        Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] AquaticLife Yahoo! Fish Group ~ Founded: Nov 4, 2002, Wednesday, 04 November 2015





        Hi Everyone,

        The group's birthday message reminder was the first post for almost three months-I guess the age of the internet forums has well & truly died now with the all pervasive Facebook & other social networking media taking over. Such a shame as I used to enjoy the banter & interaction on here together with several other fish & non-fish related forums that I am also a member of & which unfortunately have dried up to almost nothing now.

        Hope everyone's ok & your critters are thriving-how are you Noura, I do hope things are improving for you in your part of the world.

        John<o)))<



        On 03 November 2015 at 12:01 AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com wrote:







        "AquaticLife Yahoo! Fish Group ~ Founded: Nov 4, 2002" reminder

        When

        Wednesday, 04 November 2015

        12:00 AM to 12:00 AM
        (GMT) Greenwich Mean Time - Dublin / Edinburgh / Lisbon / London

        Where

        http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/AquaticLife/message/31

        Notes

        Add a Friend @ MySpace.com/AquaticLifeGroup ~ AquaticLife ~ the #1 Yahoo! Fish Group, was Originally Named "FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium" Group Name Officially Changed on: Friday, January 28th, 2005 ~ Moderator Activity 1771-1800 of 21521 Jan 28, 2005 8:36 pm Edit (Changed name: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium -> AquaticLife) by tropicalfishman ~ Message #8138 New Group Name - AquaticLife This message is to Notify all members of the group address change. Previous Group Name: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium New Group Name: AquaticLife New Email Address: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com New Web Address: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AquaticLife Please update any Links and Bookmarks with the new name. Thank You ~ Message #8137 [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium group name change Hello, The moderator of the FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium group has changed the group's name to AquaticLife. This means that both the group's email address and the group home page location have changed. The group email address: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com The group home page location: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AquaticLife If you have links which point to this group or an address book entry for the group, you should update them, as the old addresses will no longer work. Regards, Yahoo! Groups Customer Care ~ Message #8140 Fri Jan 28, 2005 8:36 pm [AquaticLife] FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium group name/addresses have changed Hello, The moderator of the FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium group has changed the group's name. ~ Jan 29, 2005 3:21 am Changed category by tropicalfishman ~ Message #8145 New Group Category: Fish We are now the Largest of all Yahoo! Fish Groups. Old Category - Top > Hobbies Crafts > Hobbies > Aquariums NEW Category - Top > Science > Biology > Animals > Marine Life > Fish

        From

        AquaticLife Calendar

        <http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us> Privacy | <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms













        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56832 From: sevenspringss Date: 11/4/2015
        Subject: Re: AquaticLife Yahoo! Fish Group ~ Founded: Nov 4, 2002, Wedne...
        Hi John,
         
        Good to hear from you.  While I realize it's been a while since any messages were posted here, I hadn't kept track as to how long it's been; three months without a message is a long time.  Obviously, the other very popular social media sites are where many members of all the Yahoo Groups have gone.  Despite this, we've lost only a handful of members, apparently because of having no traffic here -- although I don't understand what that handful had to lose by staying on.  We STILL have 3475 members -- YAY ! 
         
        Just as you hope, I too wish that everyone (and their fish) is doing okay.  My thoughts and prayers had gone to Noura from time to time over this period of inactivity here, especially as she is in the most danger by far, than any other one of us.  It's good to see she's still doing okay (considering her circumstances), by her post which I've just approved.
         
        Getting back to this Group's 13th Birthday message, while I wasn't a charter member here in the first year, I remember being in this group when it was called "FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium" group for some time before it was changed to AquaticLife.  I know lots of others have been here a long time -- including Noura.  Lots of good memories and lots of good success stories with fish problems here, through everyone's help.  Just as a reminder for everybody, we'll (us moderators) always be here should you need assistance with your fish issues.  As I understand it from members on another Yahoo group, it appears that Yahoo may be making more changes again to their groups' functionality, as if their NEO change wasn't enough to throw us for a loop when they initiate it < g >. 
         
        Regards,
         
        Ray
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56833 From: sevenspringss Date: 11/4/2015
        Subject: Re: AquaticLife Yahoo! Fish Group ~ Founded: Nov 4, 2002, Wedne...
        Hi Nora,
         
        Good to hear from you,  As always, we've been concerned for you since the last time you were up here.  Glad to know that you're alright.  We're hearing more and more about what's going on in your country now that this country and Russia are getting more involved.  Still, when we hear about the towns and cities where the fighting has been going on, we don't know how near that action is to you or if it's a good distance away.
         
        Thanks for the kind words you say about this group and its members who've given helpful advice -- and they're numerous.  We have a good group here who want nothing else but to see everyone succeed with their fish.  Too bad that just about all of the discussions here have dried up as it's always been a good forum on where to obtain valid advice.  As for including a parallel Aquatic Life Facebook group, I'm not sure if us moderators are able to do that.  I think this may be up to this group's owner (Aaron) to decide if going in that direction is something he'd want to do.  I, myself, have never been a fan of Facebook and have never joined any of their FB groups, but I'd go along with it if we ever go there.  
         
        As you have Guppies at this time (which I'm glad to know), I don't think you'll ever be out of fish, knowing how they can so easily multiply.  Keep 'em goin'.  STAY SAFE !  
         
        Best regards,   
         
        Ray
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56834 From: sevenspringss Date: 11/4/2015
        Subject: Re: AquaticLife Yahoo! Fish Group ~ Founded: Nov 4, 2002, Wedne...
        Hi again Noura,
         
        I just now caught the typo error in your name, that I wrote, after going back and reading my posted message.  Please excuse my inattention in my typing and please accept my sincerest apologies for this error.  It's not without consideration that I let this happen.  I don't know how it happened except for my not being careful enough to reread what I wrote before sending the message.
         
        Regards and take care of yourself,
         
        Ray
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56835 From: o1bigtenor Date: 11/4/2015
        Subject: Re: AquaticLife Yahoo! Fish Group ~ Founded: Nov 4, 2002, Wednesday,
        On Wed, Nov 4, 2015 at 6:12 AM, 'Noura T.' n-ocean@...
        [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
        > Hi John and everyone!
        >
        > This was the best fish group with the kindest experts who offered priceless support.
        >
        >
        >
        > I’m fine, things in the country are still in flame and smoke… fish are slightly less in number (3 adults and over a dozen of juvenile guppies), but generally okay.
        >
        >
        >
        > It would be great if the moderators of this group choose to keep up with the change, and establish a FB group. The quick interaction and ability to share photos and videos easily are a big advantage.
        >
        >
        I, for one, do NOT have a FB account - - - and will not get one. FB
        is even worse than Google for harvesting information on its users and
        I am quite tired of being used to generate ad revenues.

        IIRC it is possible to include pics with messages and videos so I'm
        not sure what the advantage of FB is except that it would make me have
        another round of things that I am to access.

        If this group is to close I would be saddened but would find some
        other source of information but that too would not be on FB.

        Regards

        Dee
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56836 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 11/4/2015
        Subject: Re: AquaticLife Yahoo! Fish Group ~ Founded: Nov 4, 2002, Wednesday,

        Hi Dee,

         I'm with you on that one, for some time many people had told me to get on Facebook for my several varied interests & being someone who will not critiscise anything without trying it first I got an account. I have to say it is probably an excellent resource for people who don't have a lot of time &/or just want some info immediately, also it's probably lots of fun for anyone under 30. However-I personally found it intolerable & using it as a reference system instead of an instantaneous information method is almost impossible. There is not [as far as I could tell] any easy way to file, index & catalogue important pieces of info that you need to go back to later, rather you have to search through masses of stuff to find something you want rather like an interesting book with no index or contents page. With the forums everyone has a photo album, there are files & links all methodically labelled for easy reference.

        In addition to the above, I also found it almost impossible to navigate, grossly intrusive & got sick of emptying my inbox of notifications that a friend of a friend had updated their status or coerced into befriending someone I don't even know just to up my status. I realised that the needs of some people are different to those of others but FB or any other social networking media is definately not for me, I found it way too frivolous & disposable. It is even difficult to get out of once it has you in it's clutches, I deleted everything, unfriended everyone I knew & after the compulsory 14 day 'cooling off' period they once again pester you to confirm you want to leave. I'm not even certain I am completely erased from their database-I bet I'm not.

        I'll not be leaving this group anytime soon & hope for at least a partial return to what we once enjoyed.

        John<o)))<

         

        On 04 November 2015 at 18:04 "o1bigtenor o1bigtenor@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

         

        On Wed, Nov 4, 2015 at 6:12 AM, 'Noura T.' n-ocean@...
        [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
        > Hi John and everyone!
        >
        > This was the best fish group with the kindest experts who offered priceless support.
        >
        >
        >
        > I’m fine, things in the country are still in flame and smoke... fish are slightly less in number (3 adults and over a dozen of juvenile guppies), but generally okay.
        >
        >
        >
        > It would be great if the moderators of this group choose to keep up with the change, and establish a FB group. The quick interaction and ability to share photos and videos easily are a big advantage.
        >
        >
        I, for one, do NOT have a FB account - - - and will not get one. FB
        is even worse than Google for harvesting information on its users and
        I am quite tired of being used to generate ad revenues.

        IIRC it is possible to include pics with messages and videos so I'm
        not sure what the advantage of FB is except that it would make me have
        another round of things that I am to access.

        If this group is to close I would be saddened but would find some
        other source of information but that too would not be on FB.

        Regards

        Dee


         


         

        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56837 From: sevenspringss Date: 11/4/2015
        Subject: Re: AquaticLife Yahoo! Fish Group ~ Founded: Nov 4, 2002, Wedne...
        Hi John,
         
        Your description of Facebook brings back a lot of bad memories that others who have joined recently told me about it.  It was for many of these same adverse reasons that you describe that I haven't joined that group up until now.  I find that I'll need to rethink the statement I made when I said I would follow along if our group owner (Aaron) decided to go in that direction; I really may not join Facebook after all, in my final analysis of this picture.  Unfortunately, those who haven't experienced it yet can't know all of its downfalls, until they're already in it.  By then, Facebook may already be taking the individual's private information to file for other uses of their's (without the individual's knowledge or permission). 
         
        Ray
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56838 From: Trevor Holyoak Date: 11/4/2015
        Subject: Re: AquaticLife Yahoo! Fish Group ~ Founded: Nov 4, 2002, Wedne...
        If you want to use free services, they have to be paid for somehow. In fact, do you think Yahoo is hosting this group purely out of the kindness of their hearts? :)

        I have been using Google and Facebook services for many years -  as a consumer, as an advertiser, and as an ad-subsidized publisher (in the case of Google). Their platforms work well, and they're probably a lot less intrusive - and trustworthy - than what the governments of the world are doing with your info right now. ;)

        - Trevor

        On 11/4/2015 3:04 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] wrote:
        Hi John,
         
        Your description of Facebook brings back a lot of bad memories that others who have joined recently told me about it.  It was for many of these same adverse reasons that you describe that I haven't joined that group up until now.  I find that I'll need to rethink the statement I made when I said I would follow along if our group owner (Aaron) decided to go in that direction; I really may not join Facebook after all, in my final analysis of this picture.  Unfortunately, those who haven't experienced it yet can't know all of its downfalls, until they're already in it.  By then, Facebook may already be taking the individual's private information to file for other uses of their's (without the individual's knowledge or permission). 
         
        Ray

        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56839 From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c Date: 11/5/2015
        Subject: Re: AquaticLife Yahoo! Fish Group ~ Founded: Nov 4, 2002, Wedne...
        I'm still here and I agree with Trevor in regards to the facebook topic.  I have been on facebook for years (my kids talked me into it so I could stay in touch with them easier) and I don't have any problems with it at all.  Just like Yahoo, there are a wealth of groups out there and not all are good ones.  It took me a lot of looking (and joining) Yahoo groups before I eventually found this one, where I settled in and made this my Yahoo group home.  On facebook, when I couldn't find a good group I started my own.  It has been quiet lately there too, mostly because I have been too busy to get back to posting regularly with educational information and my co-admin is dealing with cancer right now, so lacks the time and energy to be involved at this point.  I have no real issues with spam in my facebook group, which makes it much easier to maintain than a Yahoo group and I like that I don't have to check my email to get notifications when someone posts.  It is all in one place and I can multi-task while I check in on my group.  I am also fond of the ability to pm with people easily for those who are dealing with emergency situations and can't afford to wait for someone to get into the group to check messages in order to help them.  While facebook isn't for everyone, I guess the same could be said about Yahoo groups. 

        My lack of participation in this group, however, has not been caused by my shift to using facebook.  I want to make that clear in case there is any question.  I did not trade one for the other.  Life has just been extremely busy here this past year and my online time anywhere has been much more limited.  Just a quick rundown of my latest activities that have taken me away from my computer... last spring I began a new adventure in my life in an attempt to reclaim my health, which has been getting continuously worse.  I spent 4 months laid up with a severe case of pneumonia.  As I recovered I began sewing again and jumped into the world of mermaids.  (yes, that is a real thing, lol)  I purchased a monofin and some spandex swimsuit fabric and began a sewing project that took a couple of months to complete, and as soon as the weather allowed for it, I hit the local lakes for the summer.  Our weather this year has been very "off" so I didn't get as much swim time as I had hoped, thus I am still in the learning phases with swimming in my new mermaid tail.  Being disabled has brought a few challenges with the swimming technique and my learning curve has been slow but steady.  Let me just say, the experience has been amazing and my health is slowly improving.  Over this coming winter I am hoping to make a new tail out of neoprene, which should enhance the experience (and hopefully make swimming a bit easier).  I have met a lot of wonderful people who are also real life mermaids and had the wonderful experience of chatting on facebook with Hannah Frasier... the world's most famous mermaid.  I was inspired after seeing a 20/20 show featuring Hannah and all she does as a mermaid, with her primary focus on conservation and awareness of the tragedy that is happening in our oceans.  She's a wonderful woman and I am honored that she took the time to chat with me and help to coach me through making my own tail. 

        Other activities that have kept me busy are a return to my Native American crafts and bead work projects, trying to survive financially in this crappy economy.  Most of my sales & orders have been achieved via facebook.  I've also had a busy year with baking.  I make specialty cakes (like those you see on shows such as Cake Boss and Ace of Cakes, etc) and this year brought not only the usual birthday cakes for family & friends, but also a pair of wedding cakes for my niece a few wks ago.  The wedding cakes alone were months of work, shopping for all of the supplies and sculpting the figures out of modeling chocolate.  The baking took 16 hrs by itself, and then another 26 hrs straight of decorating in the 2 days before the wedding.  This coming weekend will be a fairy cake for my granddaughter before I put away the baking supplies for a while.  And, lastly, I have started working with a wonderful group of local people who set up what is called a "rendezvous" in various places around the state during the course of the year.  They include WW2 re-enactment demonstrations, including demos and lighting off of a number of different cannons, but the primary focus is to educate about Native American culture.  We hold 3 day events (not including the 2 days prior for setting up) with setting up tents and teepees (and these are not demos, people actually own and live in them through the events), the sacred fire that is tended for the entire event, story telling, drum circles, flute circles, etc.  It is busy and exhausting but so much fun and so rewarding.  I do bead work demonstrations, storytelling, as well as participate in the flute circles and various other demonstrations.  It has been wonderful to be able to get out and share & teach my Native culture to the public.

        Oh, and I can't forget to add that my family has increased in size this year too, with the birth of a new granddaughter and my step daughter having gotten married to a wonderful man and his daughter.   

        At home I have downsized my aquariums a bit, having taken down 2 of them this summer.  I lost a few of my most prized fish this year, including my 10 yr old rubber nose pleco and my 10+ yr old spotted mandarin.  I currently have 9 tanks running but this is the first time in many yrs that I've had less than 1000 gallons worth of tanks running.  (I'm down to about 967 gallons now)  The last of my geophagus cichlids died this summer so I am pretty much waiting for my firemouth to pass as well, and then intend to convert that 215 gallon tank to saltwater.  (I miss my predators and plan to get a trigger and something else for that tank)  My 16 inch standard pleco will then move downstairs to the 220 gallon with my 2 koi who are thriving in spite of having to be in a tank instead of the pond they grew up in.  My other large 215 gallon tank still has 2 of my angelfish fry that I kept due to their genetic defects (rather than culling them) and now has a school of turquoise rainbows and 5 different species of loaches that are also thriving, and a large group of bristlenose plecos, 2 of which have paired up and started breeding.  About a month ago I found a baby bristlenose while I was doing maintenance.  That is the only way I knew they had started breeding and I am still unsure as to who the parents are, lol. 

        On facebook I found a frag swapping group (for ladies only) and have done a few trades with them, trying to add to my 120 gallon reef tank without breaking the bank.  It's a wonderful group with regular drawings and prizes and lots of sharing of info and frags of all types through the warmer months when shipping is safe.  I contribute when someone has a problem and needs help getting things fixed, saving their fish, etc. but these women have the most beautiful and amazing tanks, overall, so not much of that is needed (or often). 

        It's nice to see this group is still around and not going anywhere.  I will try to contribute more when I can, but time is limited here.  If it's ok with the mods I would happily share some photos of my mermaid tails, cakes, and bead work in my folders just so everyone can see what it is that has kept me so busy and away from the group for so long.

        Have a great day everyone!

        Dawn
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56840 From: Noura T. Date: 11/5/2015
        Subject: Re: AquaticLife Yahoo! Fish Group ~ Founded: Nov 4, 2002, Wedne...

        Dear Ray,

         

        Thank you for the heartwarming wishes and prayers, much needed and appreciated!

        And sorry for the late reply, I’ve been sick and dizzy since yesterday (feeling a bit better now).

         

        I’m in a coastal city named Lattakia. While we have our fair share of threats and life difficulties, it remains one of the safest cities in Syria.

         

        I will try to keep these guppies alive J . They are about 3 months old now and I’m seeing lovely colors developing. These are in my 6 G planted tank near the window, and have been born to 12 hours of no power conditions, yet most of the fry survived. So I’m hopeful!

         

        In spite of the objections regarding FB groups, I still (oops!) think that it is a good idea, especially in the lack of activity here. One can choose to share as much or as little information that they want on FB, and can also choose the types or notifications to receive (all within the FB environment). I hated it for 2 years, but now I’m a regular user (still cursing Zuckerber every now and then for his s****y FB policies, though!).

        I will stay here, but noticing the inactivity I suggested the bitter sweet solution.

         

        P.S: No worries about the typo! I’ve made worse in the past (including typing pees instead of peas right here in the group!). Cheers!

         

        Noura

         

         

        From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
        Sent: 04 تشرين الثاني, 2015 04:18 م
        To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] AquaticLife Yahoo! Fish Group ~ Founded: Nov 4, 2002, Wedne...

         

         

        Hi Nora,

         

        Good to hear from you,  As always, we've been concerned for you since the last time you were up here.  Glad to know that you're alright.  We're hearing more and more about what's going on in your country now that this country and Russia are getting more involved.  Still, when we hear about the towns and cities where the fighting has been going on, we don't know how near that action is to you or if it's a good distance away.

         

        Thanks for the kind words you say about this group and its members who've given helpful advice -- and they're numerous.  We have a good group here who want nothing else but to see everyone succeed with their fish.  Too bad that just about all of the discussions here have dried up as it's always been a good forum on where to obtain valid advice.  As for including a parallel Aquatic Life Facebook group, I'm not sure if us moderators are able to do that.  I think this may be up to this group's owner (Aaron) to decide if going in that direction is something he'd want to do.  I, myself, have never been a fan of Facebook and have never joined any of their FB groups, but I'd go along with it if we ever go there.  

         

        As you have Guppies at this time (which I'm glad to know), I don't think you'll ever be out of fish, knowing how they can so easily multiply.  Keep 'em goin'.  STAY SAFE !  

         

        Best regards,   

         

        Ray

        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56841 From: Trevor Holyoak Date: 11/5/2015
        Subject: Getting a FOWLR tank going again?
        I've sort of been ignoring my fish lately. I have a small pond in my
        yard that pretty much takes care of itself, and an 80 gallon FW tank
        with an oscar, small bristlenose pleco, some silver dollars, and some
        kuhli loaches that I just feed once every day or two as I walk by.

        I also have 2 tanks in my basement that once were flourishing but now
        have mostly died of neglect. One was a planted 10 g tank with Endler's
        livebearers. After 12 years, the fish finally all died out and all that
        is left is the plants. I still have the lights coming on during the day,
        but there is only enough water left to keep the plants alive. I do
        intend to revive this tank one of these days.

        The other one is what this e-mail is actually supposed to be about. It
        was supposed to be a 40 g FOWLR but it had a mushrooms growing all over
        the live rock because someone gave me a small piece of rock about 10
        years ago with one attached. I had many different fish over the years,
        but the sole survivor for the last couple ended up being a tomato clown.
        And then one morning I went down to check on it, and everything was
        dead. There was not even a sign of the mushrooms or the fish. There was
        an odor and some black particles in the water. I determined that one of
        my pumps must have burned up. I unplugged everything and have let it sit
        ever since.

        The rock is still covered with water, but I have no idea if the water is
        still toxic or if the rock could be revived if I got some seed rock to
        add. I have no idea if I should try cleaning everything. It's got a few
        inches of sand. Perhaps it should be replaced. I have no idea.

        Anyone have the wisdom to tell me where to start? :)

        Thanks,
        Trevor
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56842 From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c Date: 11/5/2015
        Subject: Re: Getting a FOWLR tank going again?
        Hi Trevor,
        The live rock should still be good but I would consider bleaching it and starting completely over if you aren't sure what happened to the tank & it's contents to begin with.  You'd be surprised how long some of that stuff can live even in the conditions you are describing... especially harmful/toxic materials and chemicals.  The easiest way to achieve this would be to fill the tank up with freshwater, add a cup of bleach, and let the whole system run that way for at least a few days.  Then everything is being sterilized at once.  This saves on time & money both.  Anything else associated with the tank, such as nets, heaters, etc. can be set into the tank while it is running with the bleach in it.  I would also toss the sand and start over with fresh sand after sterilization is complete. 
        After bleaching, everything would need to be disassembled, rinsed very well, and allowed to thoroughly air dry for at least a week, then rinsed again.  If there is any odor of bleach remaining at that time, rinse thoroughly and again allow to thoroughly air dry.

        The risks in reusing any component of that tank without sterilization would be a 50/50 shot, and could cost you a lot more time and money later if anything toxic remains anywhere within the system or equipment.  (It could also cost animal lives, too, which would be tragic)

        If you want/need any other help through this please just let me know.  I will do what I can to talk you through the steps to get it up and running and healthy once more.  :) 

        (In case you're wondering, I currently have 2 reef tanks running and am very well versed in SW.  I have taught this stuff for many years as well as enjoying the hobby at home)

        Good Luck!

        Dawn
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56843 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 11/6/2015
        Subject: Re: AquaticLife Yahoo! Fish Group ~ Founded: Nov 4, 2002, Wedne...

        

        Hi Noura,

        I didn't realise just how close to Cyprus you were until I had a look on the map. Very glad to hear you're staying safe-hope that keeps up & I also hope you're recovered from your dizzy spell yesterday. Your Guppies sound as if they're adapting to the power outages, they will be super hardy fish! I've got two rescued baby Goldfish now, the female Common I told you about several months ago who is absolutely huge-she's grown two inches in as many months & also a female Comet who's growing fast. She was in a 4 gallon child's 'starter' tank so she's loving being able to swim a full 8 feet in a straight line now. They keep company with my old boy Marmalade who is 12 next February.

         John.


        On 05 November 2015 at 21:19 "'Noura T.' n-ocean@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

         

         

        Dear Ray,

         

        Thank you for the heartwarming wishes and prayers, much needed and appreciated!

        And sorry for the late reply, I’ve been sick and dizzy since yesterday (feeling a bit better now).

         

        I’m in a coastal city named Lattakia. While we have our fair share of threats and life difficulties, it remains one of the safest cities in Syria.

         

        I will try to keep these guppies alive J . They are about 3 months old now and I’m seeing lovely colors developing. These are in my 6 G planted tank near the window, and have been born to 12 hours of no power conditions, yet most of the fry survived. So I’m hopeful!

         

        In spite of the objections regarding FB groups, I still (oops!) think that it is a good idea, especially in the lack of activity here. One can choose to share as much or as little information that they want on FB, and can also choose the types or notifications to receive (all within the FB environment). I hated it for 2 years, but now I’m a regular user (still cursing Zuckerber every now and then for his s****y FB policies, though!).

        I will stay here, but noticing the inactivity I suggested the bitter sweet solution.

         

        P.S: No worries about the typo! I’ve made worse in the past (including typing pees instead of peas right here in the group!). Cheers!

         

        Noura

         

         

        From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
        Sent: 04 تشرين الثاني, 2015 04:18 م
        To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] AquaticLife Yahoo! Fish Group ~ Founded: Nov 4, 2002, Wedne...

         

         

        Hi Nora,

         

        Good to hear from you,  As always, we've been concerned for you since the last time you were up here.  Glad to know that you're alright.  We're hearing more and more about what's going on in your country now that this country and Russia are getting more involved.  Still, when we hear about the towns and cities where the fighting has been going on, we don't know how near that action is to you or if it's a good distance away.

         

        Thanks for the kind words you say about this group and its members who've given helpful advice -- and they're numerous.  We have a good group here who want nothing else but to see everyone succeed with their fish.  Too bad that just about all of the discussions here have dried up as it's always been a good forum on where to obtain valid advice.  As for including a parallel Aquatic Life Facebook group, I'm not sure if us moderators are able to do that.  I think this may be up to this group's owner (Aaron) to decide if going in that direction is something he'd want to do.  I, myself, have never been a fan of Facebook and have never joined any of their FB groups, but I'd go along with it if we ever go there.  

         

        As you have Guppies at this time (which I'm glad to know), I don't think you'll ever be out of fish, knowing how they can so easily multiply.  Keep 'em goin'.  STAY SAFE !  

         

        Best regards,   

         

        Ray

         

         


         


         

        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56844 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 11/6/2015
        Subject: Re: AquaticLife Yahoo! Fish Group ~ Founded: Nov 4, 2002, Wedne...

        Hi Dawn,

         So nice to hear from you & all your adventures in the meantime! I for one would have no objection to seeing your photos & indeed look forward to it. Glad to hear your health is improving again.

         John.

        On 05 November 2015 at 20:36 "dawnshungryeyes4u2c@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

         

        I'm still here and I agree with Trevor in regards to the facebook topic.  I have been on facebook for years (my kids talked me into it so I could stay in touch with them easier) and I don't have any problems with it at all.  Just like Yahoo, there are a wealth of groups out there and not all are good ones.  It took me a lot of looking (and joining) Yahoo groups before I eventually found this one, where I settled in and made this my Yahoo group home.  On facebook, when I couldn't find a good group I started my own.  It has been quiet lately there too, mostly because I have been too busy to get back to posting regularly with educational information and my co-admin is dealing with cancer right now, so lacks the time and energy to be involved at this point.  I have no real issues with spam in my facebook group, which makes it much easier to maintain than a Yahoo group and I like that I don't have to check my email to get notifications when someone posts.  It is all in one place and I can multi-task while I check in on my group.  I am also fond of the ability to pm with people easily for those who are dealing with emergency situations and can't afford to wait for someone to get into the group to check messages in order to help them.  While facebook isn't for everyone, I guess the same could be said about Yahoo groups. 

        My lack of participation in this group, however, has not been caused by my shift to using facebook.  I want to make that clear in case there is any question.  I did not trade one for the other.  Life has just been extremely busy here this past year and my online time anywhere has been much more limited.  Just a quick rundown of my latest activities that have taken me away from my computer... last spring I began a new adventure in my life in an attempt to reclaim my health, which has been getting continuously worse.  I spent 4 months laid up with a severe case of pneumonia.  As I recovered I began sewing again and jumped into the world of mermaids.  (yes, that is a real thing, lol)  I purchased a monofin and some spandex swimsuit fabric and began a sewing project that took a couple of months to complete, and as soon as the weather allowed for it, I hit the local lakes for the summer.  Our weather this year has been very "off" so I didn't get as much swim time as I had hoped, thus I am still in the learning phases with swimming in my new mermaid tail.  Being disabled has brought a few challenges with the swimming technique and my learning curve has been slow but steady.  Let me just say, the experience has been amazing and my health is slowly improving.  Over this coming winter I am hoping to make a new tail out of neoprene, which should enhance the experience (and hopefully make swimming a bit easier).  I have met a lot of wonderful people who are also real life mermaids and had the wonderful experience of chatting on facebook with Hannah Frasier... the world's most famous mermaid.  I was inspired after seeing a 20/20 show featuring Hannah and all she does as a mermaid, with her primary focus on conservation and awareness of the tragedy that is happening in our oceans.  She's a wonderful woman and I am honored that she took the time to chat with me and help to coach me through making my own tail. 

        Other activities that have kept me busy are a return to my Native American crafts and bead work projects, trying to survive financially in this crappy economy.  Most of my sales & orders have been achieved via facebook.  I've also had a busy year with baking.  I make specialty cakes (like those you see on shows such as Cake Boss and Ace of Cakes, etc) and this year brought not only the usual birthday cakes for family & friends, but also a pair of wedding cakes for my niece a few wks ago.  The wedding cakes alone were months of work, shopping for all of the supplies and sculpting the figures out of modeling chocolate.  The baking took 16 hrs by itself, and then another 26 hrs straight of decorating in the 2 days before the wedding.  This coming weekend will be a fairy cake for my granddaughter before I put away the baking supplies for a while.  And, lastly, I have started working with a wonderful group of local people who set up what is called a "rendezvous" in various places around the state during the course of the year.  They include WW2 re-enactment demonstrations, including demos and lighting off of a number of different cannons, but the primary focus is to educate about Native American culture.  We hold 3 day events (not including the 2 days prior for setting up) with setting up tents and teepees (and these are not demos, people actually own and live in them through the events), the sacred fire that is tended for the entire event, story telling, drum circles, flute circles, etc.  It is busy and exhausting but so much fun and so rewarding.  I do bead work demonstrations, storytelling, as well as participate in the flute circles and various other demonstrations.  It has been wonderful to be able to get out and share & teach my Native culture to the public.

        Oh, and I can't forget to add that my family has increased in size this year too, with the birth of a new granddaughter and my step daughter having gotten married to a wonderful man and his daughter.   

        At home I have downsized my aquariums a bit, having taken down 2 of them this summer.  I lost a few of my most prized fish this year, including my 10 yr old rubber nose pleco and my 10+ yr old spotted mandarin.  I currently have 9 tanks running but this is the first time in many yrs that I've had less than 1000 gallons worth of tanks running.  (I'm down to about 967 gallons now)  The last of my geophagus cichlids died this summer so I am pretty much waiting for my firemouth to pass as well, and then intend to convert that 215 gallon tank to saltwater.  (I miss my predators and plan to get a trigger and something else for that tank)  My 16 inch standard pleco will then move downstairs to the 220 gallon with my 2 koi who are thriving in spite of having to be in a tank instead of the pond they grew up in.  My other large 215 gallon tank still has 2 of my angelfish fry that I kept due to their genetic defects (rather than culling them) and now has a school of turquoise rainbows and 5 different species of loaches that are also thriving, and a large group of bristlenose plecos, 2 of which have paired up and started breeding.  About a month ago I found a baby bristlenose while I was doing maintenance.  That is the only way I knew they had started breeding and I am still unsure as to who the parents are, lol. 

        On facebook I found a frag swapping group (for ladies only) and have done a few trades with them, trying to add to my 120 gallon reef tank without breaking the bank.  It's a wonderful group with regular drawings and prizes and lots of sharing of info and frags of all types through the warmer months when shipping is safe.  I contribute when someone has a problem and needs help getting things fixed, saving their fish, etc. but these women have the most beautiful and amazing tanks, overall, so not much of that is needed (or often). 

        It's nice to see this group is still around and not going anywhere.  I will try to contribute more when I can, but time is limited here.  If it's ok with the mods I would happily share some photos of my mermaid tails, cakes, and bead work in my folders just so everyone can see what it is that has kept me so busy and away from the group for so long.

        Have a great day everyone!

        Dawn


         


         

        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56845 From: sevenspringss Date: 11/6/2015
        Subject: Re: AquaticLife Yahoo! Fish Group ~ Founded: Nov 4, 2002, Wedne...
        Hi Trevor,
         
        At times, some aquatic hobbyists change interest when discovering another hobby or avocation of interest they take a liking to.  At those time, the aquarium hobby doesn't mean as much to them, nor does it hold their attention with as much fascination as it used to.  Then too, sometimes a hobbyist's demands on their time does not leave enough time to properly maintain their aquaria.  I'm not really sure why you've been ignoring you fish lately, but the fact that you've come here for help in restarting your FOWLR is a step forward and encouraging.  Besides restarting this 40 gallon tank, I hope your interest in fish has sincerely been rekindled for at least some unforeseeable time in the future and is not just a fleeting thing -- even though we can't know what the future holds.  As I'm sure you must realize, aquarium fish deserve more than just being neglected -- as you admit to doing, for whatever reason it may have been. 
         
        As you do appear to want to renew your interest in aquariums though, and reset your FOWLR tank up once again, you could not take better advice than to accept what Dawn has offered you in the way to go about it.  Your statement concerning the 10 gallon tank left with plants which has only enough water left to keep the plants alive, and your intent to revive the tank "one of these days," does not look to be very enthusiastic unless I'm not reading it correctly.  I trust you're at least keeping the water level up for these plants so that they can properly thrive. 
         
        Your statement also, concerning your 80 gallon FW tank (with an Oscar, small Bristlenose, Silver Dollars and Kuhli Loaches) in which you state that "I just feed once every day or two as I walk by," does not sound as though these fish hold much interest to you although I hope I'm mistaken in the way it appears.  What it may be true that adult fishes do not need to be fed as often as growing fish, your "walking by" doesn't sound like you intend to spend very much time watching them, and again I must wonder if they still hold much interest to you.  I trust that you at least do regular weekly partial water changes on their tank, especially as Oscars do not tolerate high nitrate levels; high NO3 levels induce pitting in the heads if Oscars, due to various reasons.   
         
        If you're looking for further assistance with where to start with your freshwater tanks, I'd be pleased to help you along these lines.  A regular regimen of PWC for this 80 gallon tank would be a good starting place if you have the interest of not neglecting these fishes any longer (and feeding them daily).  If your interest is not there, and you only have an interest in restarting the 40 g FOWLR, I'd suggest you consider rehoming the 80 gallon residents.  FWI, while ponds do pretty much take care of themselves, as this is still not an entirely natural environment, these fish too must be fed, and their pondwater partially changed from time to time.  We're all here to help if you want to renew your interest in fish to the extend that you no longer neglect them, and we'll also offer suggestions if you want to move on to other interests (we're certainly no here to admonish you, as we'd like to see you succeed in your interest, hoping they may include fish.  It should be enjoyable to properly maintain one's fish -- to see them thrive.  If it becomes a "chore," it's no longer an enjoyable hobby and one must decide by that criteria whether one wants to stay in it.  I hope this helps.
         
        Ray      
         
        Ray
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56846 From: sevenspringss Date: 11/6/2015
        Subject: Re: AquaticLife Yahoo! Fish Group ~ Founded: Nov 4, 2002, Wedne...
        Dear Noura,
         
        Sorry to hear you weren't feeling well a couple of days ago, but I'm glad you're feeling better.  That dizziness is often a sure sign of some sort of illness and not very pleasant.  Nice to know that you're in one of the safest cities in Syria; that's very assuring. 
         
        On helping keeping the Guppies alive in the Winter if the power goes out, if you cook by natural gas you could partially fill some plastic bottles with hot water heated on the stove and float them in your tank to prevent the temperature from dropping too far.  Might have to get up in the middle of the night if the power is still out, to add a bottle of heated water but it's one sure way of stabilizing the water above 21 o (C) until the power comes back on.  
         
        I understand your reasoning for suggesting FB as a way of livening fish discussions.  As I've never joined, I can't really say from experience how much I.D. absconding this group can implement on its members.  I hear and read lots of negative things about FB, but also hear lots of positive things from friends and members in my local fish club -- even recommendations/suggestions that I should join.  When I hear these positive things, my thoughts are just that these friends may not be on FB long enough to know there I.D.'s are being used, but I can't say for sure.  I think I'd rather play it safe though, and stay out of it.  
         
        BTW, somehow I think I remember that "pees" comment < g >.  
         
        Best regards,
         
        Ray     
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56847 From: sevenspringss Date: 11/6/2015
        Subject: Re: AquaticLife Yahoo! Fish Group ~ Founded: Nov 4, 2002, Wedne...
        Dear Dawn,
         
        I thought and hoped that you might post a message or two at this time.  Glad to see you're keeping tabs on what this group is doing (or not doing).  Your advice to Trevor couldn't have been any better put -- and right on the money (no pun intended).  
         
        I used to see you occasionally sign as "MilwaukeeMermaid," or something similar -- I don't remember exactly.  I had often wondered what that was referring to; I guess now I know.  You never mentioned of being an actual mermaid and I doubt anyone ever made any connection to the possibility of you becoming one, with an actual tail.  After all, this is only reserved for those playing such parts in the movies and for the mermaids performing at Silver Springs/Weeki-Wachee (Ocala) Florida (LOL).
         
        I remember some time back, of your telling me you were fighting a bout of pneumonia -- in part due to your not getting enough sleep.  I hope you're talking here about the same incident, and that you didn't have a relapse of this same sickness.  We know fish can get ill from too much stress.  Please get enough rest so that you don't come down with these illnesses.  
         
        The native crafts are important; keep them up!  I enjoy the drum circles immensely.  I also have a collection of LP (vinyl) records of native flute music that I listen to from time to time.  I didn't immediately recall you played flute, but now thinking back to when we had talked about music, I believe you had mentioned it.  Sorry to hear about you losing your 10 year old Pleco and Spotted Mandarin as well -- and the Geophagus, I know how much you cared for them just by when you wrote about them.  My pair of Striped Raphael Cats are still around, going on 25 years.  I don't know how long they're supposed to live.  That you kept your genetically defective Angels all this while is a testament to how much you care for fish.  Lots of luck on continuing to breed your Bristlenose Plecos.  I'm sure they'll come across for you.  It's just a matter of finding out when they've produced eggs.  A few of the members in my local club have been breeding long-fin albino Bristlenose and the fish still commands a fair amount of money when sold; an attractive looking fish which does a nice job.  
         
        With regards,
         
        Ray
         
         
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56848 From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c Date: 11/6/2015
        Subject: Re: AquaticLife Yahoo! Fish Group ~ Founded: Nov 4, 2002, Wedne...
        Hi Ray!
        The pneumonia I mentioned this past spring was not the bout of it that you & I had previously talked about.  This last one was twice as bad and lasted twice as long.  It set in around the holidays last year and the dr's didn't finally give me the all clear until the first week of May.  I am trying really hard to prevent it from happening again.
        I had almost forgotten about my Milwaukee Mermaid nickname here on yahoo, lol.  I created that back when I was still in the dreaming stage because it defined who I am at heart.  It took me a few years to save enough money for the monofin and fabric... it's not cheap.  It might surprise you to hear that the mermaid community is actually quite large and still growing.  There is a website devoted to just that, and there are many groups on facebook where we gather online, talk about all things mermaid, and arrange for "pod" meet-up's so we can swim together.  I have met some wonderful mermaids and mermen from other states and look forward to meeting (and swimming with) many more.  I also met a wonderful mermaid named Marla, who was a Weeki Wachi mermaid back in the 70's.  She is planning a visit here next summer so we can swim together.
        I have set some goals for myself without a time limit.  Once I am able to swim efficiently as a mermaid I have plans to use my new ability to swim with the animals and study them in their natural habitat rather than always needing to bring them into my own.  I also want to use my new swimming skills to help clean up our beaches and lakes and rivers, the parts where the average person can't get to for cleanup activities.  I have already started to follow in Hannah's finprints by using my mermaid tail to generate conversation and awareness of conservation that is so desperately needed.  Not everyone reacts in a positive way to seeing a real live mermaid, especially not around this area... but 1 beach, 1 person at a time I am working to change that as I make progress.  This type of swimming is not easy for me, mostly due to my disabilities & health issues, but it is an exhausting technique for anyone to learn and requires a lot of physical energy to accomplish.  Luckily I know that slow & steady wins the race, lol. 
        Here's a link where you can see a short video clip of me practicing in my neighbor's pool.
        https://www.facebook.com/dawn.moneyhan/videos/vb.100000904517223/1021001207940020/?type=3&theater

        As for the other stuff... I have been playing Native flute for years now.  My husband bought me 1 for my birthday about 8 yrs ago and when I fell in love with it, he went through the process of learning to make them so he could afford to make me more of them.  Now he helps to teach others what goes into making them and offers demonstrations out at the rendezvous activities we attend.  And the bead work, I will never give that up.  I have been doing that for years also, but just started taking custom orders over the past couple of yrs while trying to supplement our income in a way I am physically able.  Quite often that is the only way I can afford a fish or plants that I want for my tanks, which helps to provide me the motivation to get things sold.  This coming spring I intend to make myself a cob oven out in my yard so I can do some real baking and cooking, and hubby & I are still trying to save enough to get our own teepee.  Even my gardening has been geared towards these activities as I now plant a lot of natural herbs & spices and harvest, dry, and package my own to sell at the events.  Next year I will be attempting to grow my own sweetgrass and swamp tea to add to the mix. 

        And for the breeding plecos... they are just going to be left to do their own thing.  That tank is too big, too high, and too heavily decorated for me to focus on specifically breeding anything in there or to even try removing any of the fish.  If they continue to spawn that's great, if not that's fine too.  My focus is just to provide them with the best home I possibly can and to watch them thrive.  I suspect the loaches probably get/eat most of the eggs, but I enjoy playing with the new baby that has become very friendly.  Last year I ordered 6 botia angelica for that tank, but what arrived were not botia angelica and there were at least 2 - 3 different species in the bag all marked as angelica.  Thus far I have been able to identify 2 of the species now, one of them is the tiger botia, and another is the yoyo loach (also botia).  They are very different in size, but they all coexist happily.  The tiger botias are now about 5 inches each, along with the 2 missing botia striata that I thought I had lost but later appeared out of nowhere, lol.  1 of the yoyo loaches is very friendly and comes out and swims around my hands while I do maintenance as the other one just pokes its head out of the rocks to watch.  There is also a 6 inch clown loach in there that is growing rapidly, and 1 other species I am still unsure of, as the markings don't really define it quite yet.  The only thing I can say for sure is that it is a botia species.  I still battle with hair algae in that tank as well as black beard algae, due to my crappy water supply.  I found 1 product that seems to help cut back on it's growth but got so expensive to use that I just stopped dosing it.  215 gallons is a lot of water to dose regularly with any kind of chemicals.  The fish don't seem to mind the algae and once/month or so I manually pull out most of it and the cycle just starts again.  The only live plants in that tank are a full bed of crypt wendtii, and they don't seem affected by the hair algae, so I just don't let it bother me anymore.  The tank is treated as the natural habitat it is and as long as everything is happy & healthy, the algae just adds for territory for the fish and helps with maintenance by utilizing the fish waste as food. 
        The baby angels aren't babies anymore and I have no idea how long they will live considering their obvious genetic defects.  My goal for them is as with all others... just a happy full life for however long nature decides is their time.  I have lost 2 over the past 2 yrs, out of the 5 total that I kept.  The other lives in my 65 gallon with some danios and white clouds and corys and loves to play in the massive quantities of naja grass that tank continues to produce.  I still have to thin the naja grass at least once/month and throw away huge amounts of it each month just so the fish are able to swim in the tank without getting caught in it. 

        I managed to get rid of most of the snail issues I was having when I broke down a couple of tanks.  The 65 gallon with the angel was broken down last spring, dosed with salt, then emptied, dried, and restarted, just to get rid of those pesky snails.  I was amazed at how much salt it took to kill all of the rams horn snails.  It took almost 2 months of increasing salinity, 1 wk at a time, to eradicate those nasty things, salinity was up to 1.040 before it finally killed the last of them.  As you know, that high of a salinity would kill most saltwater animals, so for those snails to survive in it just amazed me (and irritated me too).  Now I have a new species of snail in that tank, no idea where it came from as it's not in any of my other tanks and the only thing new that went into the tank after the breakdown were a couple of cory cats.  Hubby & I suspect they came in with the corys, possibly in excrement after having ingested one, who knows.  They look like a tiny version of the trumpet snails for shape, but they don't get more than 1/8 inch long and their coloration is a very pale off white/cream without any markings.  I haven't seen any snail eggs in that tank so am assuming they might be live bearing, and they appear to be an algae grazer.  One night I looked at my beautiful, snail free tank, and there were about 100 of those little things all over the glass.  They don't appear to be hurting anything, but come spring I may do another break down of that tank just to get rid of them.  The only snails I want in that tank are my nerite, of which I have 6.  It's always something, isn't it?  lol

        Anyway, have to run.  I will email you later.
        Hope all is well with you!

        Dawn 

         

        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56849 From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c Date: 11/6/2015
        Subject: Re: AquaticLife Yahoo! Fish Group ~ Founded: Nov 4, 2002, Wedne...
        I would just like to take a moment to echo Ray's thoughts about the desire to properly care for the animals and not neglect them.  As I'm sure you already know, saltwater cannot tolerate the kind of neglect that much of the freshwater animals can (even though they shouldn't have to) and it does concern me that I may be assisting anyone in setting up an environment that will lead to the suffering of innocent animals.  I truly hope that is not the case.  I ask you to please do some soul searching while going through the steps of sterilizing this 40 gallon tank and all of the equipment and make sure you are serious about the long term commitment this will lead to.  The average saltwater tank takes approximately 12 wks to fully cycle and be safe for the first fish, so that, along with the work & money involved in reviving this tank should hopefully help you in determining if you really want to do this again.  I am always happy to help anyone who is serious about the proper care of the animals, but I beg of you, please don't waste my time or innocent lives on a fleeting thought or spur of the moment decision. 

        Thanks!

        Dawn
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56850 From: Larry Blanchard Date: 11/6/2015
        Subject: Re: AquaticLife Yahoo! Fish Group ~ Founded: Nov 4, 2002, Wedne...
        On 11/06/2015 01:06 PM, dawnshungryeyes4u2c@... [AquaticLife] wrote:
        > Hi Ray!
        > The pneumonia I mentioned this past spring was not the bout of it that
        > you & I had previously talked about. This last one was twice as bad
        > and lasted twice as long. It set in around the holidays last year and
        > the dr's didn't finally give me the all clear until the first week of
        > May. I am trying really hard to prevent it from happening again.

        I can sympathize, Dawn. I had my 2nd bout last year and spent 4 days in
        intensive care, then 7 more in hospital before they let me go home. Did
        enough damage I'm now on oxygen permanently. Hope yours wasn't that bad.

        Of course, at 78 I can't complain - these days the obits all seem to be
        for folks younger than me! And I met a woman who had pneumonia so bad
        they put her into a coma to help her recover.

        LarryB

        --
        Where have all the flowers gone? Pete Seeger 1919-2014
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56851 From: Harry Perry Date: 11/6/2015
        Subject: Re: Larry
        Larry, you could eliminate the pneumonia all together by maximizing your vit. D.

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ur_yXEUOOx8

        I don't get colds or flu and I'm 70. 5000 I.U. per day. $6.00 for a 3 month supply.

        Your doctor won't agree with this. That's unfortunate.

        Harry
        --------------------------------------------
        On Fri, 11/6/15, Larry Blanchard labl02@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

        Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] AquaticLife Yahoo! Fish Group ~ Founded: Nov 4, 2002, Wedne...
        To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Friday, November 6, 2015, 6:58 PM


         



           


             
               
               
               On 11/06/2015 01:06 PM,
        dawnshungryeyes4u2c@... [AquaticLife] wrote:

        > Hi Ray!

        > The pneumonia I mentioned this past spring was not the
        bout of it that

        > you & I had previously talked about.  This last one
        was twice as bad

        > and lasted twice as long.  It set in around the
        holidays last year and

        > the dr's didn't finally give me the all clear
        until the first week of

        > May.  I am trying really hard to prevent it from
        happening again.



        I can sympathize, Dawn.  I had my 2nd bout last year and
        spent 4 days in

        intensive care, then 7 more in hospital before they let me
        go home.  Did

        enough damage I'm now on oxygen permanently.  Hope yours
        wasn't that bad.



        Of course, at 78 I can't complain - these days the obits
        all seem to be

        for folks younger than me!  And I met a woman who had
        pneumonia so bad

        they put her into a coma to help her recover.



        LarryB



        --

        Where have all the flowers gone?  Pete Seeger 1919-2014





             
             

             
           
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56852 From: PAULA BROWN Date: 11/7/2015
        Subject: Water Question
        I just got done testing two of our tanks - a 20 gallon and a 30 gallon.  Both tanks tested the same:

        PH 7.6
        Ammonia .25 ppm
        Nitrite 0 ppm
        Nitrate 0 ppm (though it was really closer to the 0 ppm than the 5 ppm)
        This was done using an API test kit. 

        Both tanks have been established for at least a year.  The fish in the 30 gallon are thriving, but any fish that I have kept in the 20 gallon dies.  Right now the only occupant is a golden snail.  There are some live plants in both tanks.  The dead have mostly been male guppies and some neons.  The 20 gallon was never overstocked. 

        I guess that I am looking for some advice as to what could be happening to the 20 gallon.  The water varies from 74 to 76 degrees.  Water is beautiful (which I know does not always mean that things are great) in the 20 gallon, yet I constantly have algae problems on the sides of the 30 gallon.  Neither tank is exposed to much natural light and I only keep the lights on for about 5 hours every night.

        Until the fish disappear (usually the snail eats their dead bodies), the fish seem to thrive.  They ate well and didn't appear to show any signs of being sick.  This is my second round of purchasing fish, watching them thrive, and then die, usually within a month or two.  Suggestions?

        Paula in Sylvania, Ohio
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56853 From: sevenspringss Date: 11/7/2015
        Subject: Re: Water Question
        Hi Paula,
         
        First question before getting further into this;  Did you purchase this tank new ?
         
        Ray
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56854 From: PAULA BROWN Date: 11/7/2015
        Subject: Re: Water Question
        Ray, the 20 gallon was brand new purchased about two years ago and has been set up ever since.  The 30 gallon was purchased brand new about 15 years ago and set up ever since.

        Paula in Sylvania, Ohio

        On Sat, Nov 7, 2015 at 3:37 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
         

        Hi Paula,
         
        First question before getting further into this;  Did you purchase this tank new ?
         
        Ray


        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56855 From: sevenspringss Date: 11/7/2015
        Subject: Re: Water Question
        Okay, next question;  Do you make especially large and frequent PWC's ?
         
        Ray
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56856 From: PAULA BROWN Date: 11/7/2015
        Subject: Re: Water Question
        Not large PWC's but I do try to do them every couple of weeks.  About 1/4 of the water.

        Paula in Sylvania, Ohio

        On Sat, Nov 7, 2015 at 3:43 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
         

        Okay, next question;  Do you make especially large and frequent PWC's ?
         
        Ray


        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56857 From: Harry Perry Date: 11/7/2015
        Subject: Re: Water Question,established tanks
        When tanks have been running a while they can develop "old tank syndrome"

        A good indication of this is a high niTRATE level. Normally niTRATE doesn't cause any problems but when it gets above 40 ppm it can kill fish. The solution is a partial water change. Say 50% then 1/4 to 1/3 weekly. Normally solves the problem.

        Harry
        --------------------------------------------
        On Sat, 11/7/15, PAULA BROWN paulabrown4480@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

        Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Water Question
        To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Saturday, November 7, 2015, 3:53 PM


         









        Not large PWC's but I
        do try to do them every couple of weeks.  About 1/4 of
        the water.

        Paula in
        Sylvania, Ohio

        On Sat, Nov 7, 2015 at 3:43
        PM, sevenspringss1@...
        [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
        wrote:















         












        Okay, next question;  Do you make
        especially large and
        frequent PWC's ?
         
        Ray
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56858 From: sevenspringss Date: 11/7/2015
        Subject: Re: Water Question
        Alright, that's not a lot and not all the frequent.  I should have also asked you at the same time, if you have a lot of plants in that tank, and/or, when you had fish in this tank, did you keep it stocked fairly lightly (?)
         
        What I'm getting at is that under normal circumstance  -- changing an average of 1/3 of the water once a week, having a moderate (but not heavy) amount of plants and near a moderately full (but not overstocked) fish load -- the nitrogen cycle would produce enough nitrate in two weeks time to show some level of it when you test for it.  It's quite odd that your nitrate reads 0 (zero).  Usually, a constant zero nitrate reading suggests that the tank is not cycled -- has not established a biological cycle.  
         
        I'm leaning towards the possibility of you test kit give erroneous results, although you appear to have a quality test kit.  For now, please shed some light on the question above -- on the fish and plants..
         
        Ray   
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56859 From: sevenspringss Date: 11/7/2015
        Subject: Re: Water Question,established tanks
        Hi Harry,
         
        Yeah, agreed.  But with Paula's nitrate testing out a zero -- and it's been set up for two years -- it's not making much sense, yet.
         
        Ray
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56860 From: sevenspringss Date: 11/7/2015
        Subject: Re: Water Question
        Paula,
         
        I realize that you have at least some nitrate reading -- somewhere between 0 ppm and 5 ppm, but closer to zero.  I'll wait for your reply on the plant and fish bioloads to comment further on this.
         
        On the ammonia, if this tank is fully cycled, you should have a 0 ppm (zero ppm) ammonia reading.  Normally, a 0.25 ppm ammonia reading with a 7.6 pH is not lethal, but it is toxic.  The temperature also plays a part in this balance, whereas the higher the temperature, the more toxic is the ammonia at a pH of 7.6.  What temperature do you keep the tank at ? 
         
        To keep this ammonia more at a minimum, I'd suggest doing the normal 1/3 PWC weekly.  I'm not yet convinced that this has been the problem, but it's a good place to start.  I'll still need the answers to your bioload though.
         
        Ray 
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56861 From: Trevor Holyoak Date: 11/7/2015
        Subject: Re: AquaticLife Yahoo! Fish Group ~ Founded: Nov 4, 2002, Wedne...
        I should not have used the word "neglect" in my original e-mail. I should have known it would be taken literally. I am not neglecting my fish. My main tank is actually in my kitchen, where it gets attention every day from the whole family.

        The reason the tanks in my basement have been sitting dormant is because I have been trying to decide what to do with them. I am not making any snap decisions. I have not yet done anything with my SW tank because I haven't decided if I want to put the effort and expense into it again. The 10 gallon used to be in my office at work, but I am now in a cubicle and there wasn't any space for it. It is in my basement until I decide what to do with it. The fish in it had died out naturally over the course of 12 years. Endlers don't live forever and they eventually quit having babies to replace themselves.

        As for the pond, I guess we have different philosophies on what is needed. I clean it twice a year, in the fall when I put the heater in, take out the filter, and take care of the plants, and in the spring when I remove the heater, put the filter back in, and take care of the plants. I also top it off during the warm months as needed. But I don't believe it needs water changes, and the fish do just fine without artificial feeding. In fact, they do well enough in this environment that most of the fish were actually born in this pond.

        I appreciate the advice on rejuvenating the SW tank. It will help me make my decision on what to do with it. But perhaps part of the reason why this group doesn't get as much traffic as it used to is because of the criticism that is too easily given.

        Friday, November 06, 2015 2:29 PM
        I would just like to take a moment to echo Ray's thoughts about the desire to properly care for the animals and not neglect them.  As I'm sure you already know, saltwater cannot tolerate the kind of neglect that much of the freshwater animals can (even though they shouldn't have to) and it does concern me that I may be assisting anyone in setting up an environment that will lead to the suffering of innocent animals.  I truly hope that is not the case.  I ask you to please do some soul searching while going through the steps of sterilizing this 40 gallon tank and all of the equipment and make sure you are serious about the long term commitment this will lead to.  The average saltwater tank takes approximately 12 wks to fully cycle and be safe for the first fish, so that, along with the work & money involved in reviving this tank should hopefully help you in determining if you really want to do this again.  I am always happy to help anyone who is serious about the proper care of the animals, but I beg of you, please don't waste my time or innocent lives on a fleeting thought or spur of the moment decision. 

        Thanks!

        Dawn
        Friday, November 06, 2015 6:49 AM
        Hi Trevor,
         
        At times, some aquatic hobbyists change interest when discovering another hobby or avocation of interest they take a liking to.  At those time, the aquarium hobby doesn't mean as much to them, nor does it hold their attention with as much fascination as it used to.  Then too, sometimes a hobbyist's demands on their time does not leave enough time to properly maintain their aquaria.  I'm not really sure why you've been ignoring you fish lately, but the fact that you've come here for help in restarting your FOWLR is a step forward and encouraging.  Besides restarting this 40 gallon tank, I hope your interest in fish has sincerely been rekindled for at least some unforeseeable time in the future and is not just a fleeting thing -- even though we can't know what the future holds.  As I'm sure you must realize, aquarium fish deserve more than just being neglected -- as you admit to doing, for whatever reason it may have been. 
         
        As you do appear to want to renew your interest in aquariums though, and reset your FOWLR tank up once again, you could not take better advice than to accept what Dawn has offered you in the way to go about it.  Your statement concerning the 10 gallon tank left with plants which has only enough water left to keep the plants alive, and your intent to revive the tank "one of these days," does not look to be very enthusiastic unless I'm not reading it correctly.  I trust you're at least keeping the water level up for these plants so that they can properly thrive. 
         
        Your statement also, concerning your 80 gallon FW tank (with an Oscar, small Bristlenose, Silver Dollars and Kuhli Loaches) in which you state that "I just feed once every day or two as I walk by," does not sound as though these fish hold much interest to you although I hope I'm mistaken in the way it appears.  What it may be true that adult fishes do not need to be fed as often as growing fish, your "walking by" doesn't sound like you intend to spend very much time watching them, and again I must wonder if they still hold much interest to you.  I trust that you at least do regular weekly partial water changes on their tank, especially as Oscars do not tolerate high nitrate levels; high NO3 levels induce pitting in the heads if Oscars, due to various reasons.   
         
        If you're looking for further assistance with where to start with your freshwater tanks, I'd be pleased to help you along these lines.  A regular regimen of PWC for this 80 gallon tank would be a good starting place if you have the interest of not neglecting these fishes any longer (and feeding them daily).  If your interest is not there, and you only have an interest in restarting the 40 g FOWLR, I'd suggest you consider rehoming the 80 gallon residents.  FWI, while ponds do pretty much take care of themselves, as this is still not an entirely natural environment, these fish too must be fed, and their pondwater partially changed from time to time.  We're all here to help if you want to renew your interest in fish to the extend that you no longer neglect them, and we'll also offer suggestions if you want to move on to other interests (we're certainly no here to admonish you, as we'd like to see you succeed in your interest, hoping they may include fish.  It should be enjoyable to properly maintain one's fish -- to see them thrive.  If it becomes a "chore," it's no longer an enjoyable hobby and one must decide by that criteria whether one wants to stay in it.  I hope this helps.
         
        Ray      
         
        Ray

        --
        LDS Podcasts Free for Android, Kindle Fire, Nook tablets, and BlackBerry
        http://www.holyoak.com/ldspodcasts

        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56862 From: sevenspringss Date: 11/7/2015
        Subject: Re: AquaticLife Yahoo! Fish Group ~ Founded: Nov 4, 2002, Wedne...
        Trevor,
         
        Thanks for your further input.  It helps me better understand where you're coming from.  We are not criticizing though; you were the one who said you were neglecting your fish.  Yes, I took it literally.  I saw no other choice in how to take it as it appeared to me you meant what you said.  There was no way for me to know differently.  Now that you clarified this, now (only now) I know what you meant.  Best of luck in whatever you decide to set back up.
         
        Regards,
         
        Ray  
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56863 From: Larry Blanchard Date: 11/7/2015
        Subject: Re: Water Question
        On 11/07/2015 10:27 AM, PAULA BROWN paulabrown4480@...
        [AquaticLife] wrote:
        > Both tanks have been established for at least a year. The fish in the
        > 30 gallon are thriving, but any fish that I have kept in the 20 gallon
        > dies. Right now the only occupant is a golden snail. There are some
        > live plants in both tanks. The dead have mostly been male guppies and
        > some neons. The 20 gallon was never overstocked.
        >
        > I guess that I am looking for some advice as to what could be
        > happening to the 20 gallon. The water varies from 74 to 76 degrees.
        > Water is beautiful (which I know does not always mean that things are
        > great) in the 20 gallon, yet I constantly have algae problems on the
        > sides of the 30 gallon. Neither tank is exposed to much natural light
        > and I only keep the lights on for about 5 hours every night.

        At first I thought someone had resurrected one of my old posts :-).
        I've got the same kind of problem with a 40 and either of a 20 or 29.
        I've replaced everything. Mine are in separate rooms and I'm beginning
        to suspect the room environment. Which is a little disconcerting since
        it's my den.

        Keep us posted and if I find anything I'll do likewise.

        --
        Where have all the flowers gone? Pete Seeger 1919-2014
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56864 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 11/7/2015
        Subject: Re: AquaticLife Yahoo! Fish Group ~ Founded: Nov 4, 2002, Wedne...

        Hi Trevor,

         I think your final sentence highlights a perpetual problem with any kind of 'long distance' discussion such as you find on the internet on whatever subject when someone asks for advice & another offers it.  People who are often the opposite side of the world to one-another & who are only known 'virtually' cannot know what degree, or not of knowledge that poster has so a response, if it is to be any use has to start from basics & work upwards. Much like my recent reply to Paula where I asked her if she could possibly have been using the wrong amount of drops in her test kit or if it was out of date. I do hope she doesn't take offence at my asking such basic questions but in the unlikely even that she was using the wrong amount of drops then her zero NO3 result is immediately sorted! More than once I have searched my flat looking for my glasses only to find they were on the top of my head all the time.

        If we were all able to sit down across a table with a few beers then the communication would immediately be two-way & we would not need to ask many of the fundamental questions & instead would be able to jump straight to the problem in hand. Unfortunately this is not the case so problems in communication can arise simply by one person's perceived attitude to another. However, I think the bottom line is that everyone on here has the best interests of both the fish & their keepers at heart otherwise they would not offer their time & expertise willingly & free of charge. I am 100% sure that no criticism or offence was intended by anyone who responded to you, life really is too short for that.

         John<o)))<

        On 08 November 2015 at 00:32 "Trevor Holyoak trevor@holyoak.com [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

         

        I should not have used the word "neglect" in my original e-mail. I should have known it would be taken literally. I am not neglecting my fish. My main tank is actually in my kitchen, where it gets attention every day from the whole family.

        The reason the tanks in my basement have been sitting dormant is because I have been trying to decide what to do with them. I am not making any snap decisions. I have not yet done anything with my SW tank because I haven't decided if I want to put the effort and expense into it again. The 10 gallon used to be in my office at work, but I am now in a cubicle and there wasn't any space for it. It is in my basement until I decide what to do with it. The fish in it had died out naturally over the course of 12 years. Endlers don't live forever and they eventually quit having babies to replace themselves.

        As for the pond, I guess we have different philosophies on what is needed. I clean it twice a year, in the fall when I put the heater in, take out the filter, and take care of the plants, and in the spring when I remove the heater, put the filter back in, and take care of the plants. I also top it off during the warm months as needed. But I don't believe it needs water changes, and the fish do just fine without artificial feeding. In fact, they do well enough in this environment that most of the fish were actually born in this pond.

        I appreciate the advice on rejuvenating the SW tank. It will help me make my decision on what to do with it. But perhaps part of the reason why this group doesn't get as much traffic as it used to is because of the criticism that is too easily given.

        Friday, November 06, 2015 2:29 PM
        I would just like to take a moment to echo Ray's thoughts about the desire to properly care for the animals and not neglect them. As I'm sure you already know, saltwater cannot tolerate the kind of neglect that much of the freshwater animals can (even though they shouldn't have to) and it does concern me that I may be assisting anyone in setting up an environment that will lead to the suffering of innocent animals. I truly hope that is not the case. I ask you to please do some soul searching while going through the steps of sterilizing this 40 gallon tank and all of the equipment and make sure you are serious about the long term commitment this will lead to. The average saltwater tank takes approximately 12 wks to fully cycle and be safe for the first fish, so that, along with the work & money involved in reviving this tank should hopefully help you in determining if you really want to do this again. I am always happy to help anyone who is serious about the proper care of the animals, but I beg of you, please don't waste my time or innocent lives on a fleeting thought or spur of the moment decision.

        Thanks!

        Dawn
         
        Friday, November 06, 2015 6:49 AM
        Hi Trevor,
         
        At times, some aquatic hobbyists change interest when discovering another hobby or avocation of interest they take a liking to. At those time, the aquarium hobby doesn't mean as much to them, nor does it hold their attention with as much fascination as it used to. Then too, sometimes a hobbyist's demands on their time does not leave enough time to properly maintain their aquaria. I'm not really sure why you've been ignoring you fish lately, but the fact that you've come here for help in restarting your FOWLR is a step forward and encouraging. Besides restarting this 40 gallon tank, I hope your interest in fish has sincerely been rekindled for at least some unforeseeable time in the future and is not just a fleeting thing -- even though we can't know what the future holds. As I'm sure you must realize, aquarium fish deserve more than just being neglected -- as you admit to doing, for whatever reason it may have been.
         
        As you do appear to want to renew your interest in aquariums though, and reset your FOWLR tank up once again, you could not take better advice than to accept what Dawn has offered you in the way to go about it. Your statement concerning the 10 gallon tank left with plants which has only enough water left to keep the plants alive, and your intent to revive the tank "one of these days," does not look to be very enthusiastic unless I'm not reading it correctly. I trust you're at least keeping the water level up for these plants so that they can properly thrive.
         
        Your statement also, concerning your 80 gallon FW tank (with an Oscar, small Bristlenose, Silver Dollars and Kuhli Loaches) in which you state that "I just feed once every day or two as I walk by," does not sound as though these fish hold much interest to you although I hope I'm mistaken in the way it appears. What it may be true that adult fishes do not need to be fed as often as growing fish, your "walking by" doesn't sound like you intend to spend very much time watching them, and again I must wonder if they still hold much interest to you. I trust that you at least do regular weekly partial water changes on their tank, especially as Oscars do not tolerate high nitrate levels; high NO3 levels induce pitting in the heads if Oscars, due to various reasons.
         
        If you're looking for further assistance with where to start with your freshwater tanks, I'd be pleased to help you along these lines. A regular regimen of PWC for this 80 gallon tank would be a good starting place if you have the interest of not neglecting these fishes any longer (and feeding them daily). If your interest is not there, and you only have an interest in restarting the 40 g FOWLR, I'd suggest you consider rehoming the 80 gallon residents. FWI, while ponds do pretty much take care of themselves, as this is still not an entirely natural environment, these fish too must be fed, and their pondwater partially changed from time to time. We're all here to help if you want to renew your interest in fish to the extend that you no longer neglect them, and we'll also offer suggestions if you want to move on to other interests (we're certainly no here to admonish you, as we'd like to see you succeed in your interest, hoping they may include fish. It should be enjoyable to properly maintain one's fish -- to see them thrive. If it becomes a "chore," it's no longer an enjoyable hobby and one must decide by that criteria whether one wants to stay in it. I hope this helps.
         
        Ray
         
        Ray
         

        --
        LDS Podcasts Free for Android, Kindle Fire, Nook tablets, and BlackBerry
        http://www.holyoak.com/ldspodcasts

         


         


         

        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56865 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 11/7/2015
        Subject: Re: Water Question

        Hi Paula,

         Something just occurred to me-you said you were using API test kits which are generally very accurate. My apologies if I am out of line suggesting this but is it possible you are not using the correct amounts of drops/water/mixing time &/or are your test kits out of date? I'm just starting with the most obvious things first to try to get to the bottom of your problem. I agree with Ray, it is most unusual to record a zero result with any form of plant or animal life in the tank because the Nitrate/NO3 is measuring the background organic waste.  The use by date is printed at the top right of the label on the plastic shoulder of the bottle.

         John<o)))<

        On 07 November 2015 at 21:24 "sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

         

         

        Paula,
         
        I realize that you have at least some nitrate reading -- somewhere between 0 ppm and 5 ppm, but closer to zero.  I'll wait for your reply on the plant and fish bioloads to comment further on this.
         
        On the ammonia, if this tank is fully cycled, you should have a 0 ppm (zero ppm) ammonia reading.  Normally, a 0.25 ppm ammonia reading with a 7.6 pH is not lethal, but it is toxic.  The temperature also plays a part in this balance, whereas the higher the temperature, the more toxic is the ammonia at a pH of 7.6.  What temperature do you keep the tank at ? 
         
        To keep this ammonia more at a minimum, I'd suggest doing the normal 1/3 PWC weekly.  I'm not yet convinced that this has been the problem, but it's a good place to start.  I'll still need the answers to your bioload though.
         
        Ray 

         


         


         

        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56866 From: sevenspringss Date: 11/7/2015
        Subject: Re: Water Question
        Hi Larry,
         
        Thanks for posting your message and for including part of Paula's message.  I had temporarily lost track of it in the interchange of messages.  Thought she included the temperature, but as I was unable to locate the message for the second time, I just wasn't sure what that temperature was.  Looks like she got distracted as she dropped out of the conversation unexpectedly.  Hope she sees this.  A temperature of 74 o -- 76 o will not make an ammonia value of 0.25 ppm @ pH 7.6 lethal.  The continued toxicity though will put ongoing stress on the fish and may eventually cause them poor health, resulting in their deaths.  Sometimes this stress may help bring on an illness and if that illness is internal, it may not be seen before their decline.  
         
        Then too, if any of these three values increase at some point before the next PWC, this toxicity would only increase.  Still pondering the near-zero value for the nitrate and the continued 0.25 ppm value for ammonia after 2 years.  My next question would have been how often is the filter cleaned and is the filter media changed (to new) every time -- or, very often ?  If so, this would prevent sufficient populations of nitrifying bacteria to become established in the filter -- especially if all media is changed at once.
         
        I hope you're able to associate with these points, Larry.  Hopefully you'll see something here that hits home and helps with your similar problem.       
         
        Ray
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56867 From: PAULA BROWN Date: 11/7/2015
        Subject: Re: Water Question
        The API test kit was brand new.  I just looked at the bottles and do not see an expiration date on them - just a Lot Number.  There is still one snail and one live plant in the 20 gallon death tank.

        Paula in Sylvania, Ohio

        On Sat, Nov 7, 2015 at 8:18 PM, SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
         

        Hi Paula,

         Something just occurred to me-you said you were using API test kits which are generally very accurate. My apologies if I am out of line suggesting this but is it possible you are not using the correct amounts of drops/water/mixing time &/or are your test kits out of date? I'm just starting with the most obvious things first to try to get to the bottom of your problem. I agree with Ray, it is most unusual to record a zero result with any form of plant or animal life in the tank because the Nitrate/NO3 is measuring the background organic waste.  The use by date is printed at the top right of the label on the plastic shoulder of the bottle.

         John<o)))<

        On 07 November 2015 at 21:24 "sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

         

         

        Paula,
         
        I realize that you have at least some nitrate reading -- somewhere between 0 ppm and 5 ppm, but closer to zero.  I'll wait for your reply on the plant and fish bioloads to comment further on this.
         
        On the ammonia, if this tank is fully cycled, you should have a 0 ppm (zero ppm) ammonia reading.  Normally, a 0.25 ppm ammonia reading with a 7.6 pH is not lethal, but it is toxic.  The temperature also plays a part in this balance, whereas the higher the temperature, the more toxic is the ammonia at a pH of 7.6.  What temperature do you keep the tank at ? 
         
        To keep this ammonia more at a minimum, I'd suggest doing the normal 1/3 PWC weekly.  I'm not yet convinced that this has been the problem, but it's a good place to start.  I'll still need the answers to your bioload though.
         
        Ray 

         


         


         


        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56868 From: PAULA BROWN Date: 11/7/2015
        Subject: Re: Water Question
        Ray wrote:  "Looks like she got distracted as she dropped out of the conversation unexpectedly.  Hope she sees this.  A temperature of 74 o -- 76 o will not make an ammonia value of 0.25 ppm @ pH 7.6 lethal.  The continued toxicity though will put ongoing stress on the fish and may eventually cause them poor health, resulting in their deaths.  Sometimes this stress may help bring on an illness and if that illness is internal, it may not be seen before their decline.  "

        I didn't get distracted - my husband and I went out to dinner.  Ray then wrote:  "My next question would have been how often is the filter cleaned and is the filter media changed (to new) every time -- or, very often ? "

        I change the filter media about every two months or so.  Both submersible filters take the Whisper (aka Tetra) large filters.  I rarely add the carbon because of the live plants (not 100% sure if that is the right thing to do).  We put a new filter on the 20 gallon about two weeks ago, but I used a filter media that had been in the 30 gallon (which is doing well) and all but one of the fish were already dead by then.  I will admit that I am terrible about cleaning the gravel.  I have been doing PWC's more often since this tank has really got me concerned and my husband hates seeing it so empty looking.

        I did fail to say that I have bought my fish from a very reputable and expensive fish store, but I have also purchased some from a chain store that really has some knowledgeable fish folks that seem to care.  And also besides that death 20 gallon tank and thriving 30 gallon that we have 5 gallon, 3 gallon, and 2 gallon tanks using the same water with just one male Betta in each that are doing well.

        Paula in Sylvania, Ohio

        On Sat, Nov 7, 2015 at 9:12 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
         

        Hi Larry,
         
        Thanks for posting your message and for including part of Paula's message.  I had temporarily lost track of it in the interchange of messages.  Thought she included the temperature, but as I was unable to locate the message for the second time, I just wasn't sure what that temperature was.  Looks like she got distracted as she dropped out of the conversation unexpectedly.  Hope she sees this.  A temperature of 74 o -- 76 o will not make an ammonia value of 0.25 ppm @ pH 7.6 lethal.  The continued toxicity though will put ongoing stress on the fish and may eventually cause them poor health, resulting in their deaths.  Sometimes this stress may help bring on an illness and if that illness is internal, it may not be seen before their decline.  
         
        Then too, if any of these three values increase at some point before the next PWC, this toxicity would only increase.  Still pondering the near-zero value for the nitrate and the continued 0.25 ppm value for ammonia after 2 years.  My next question would have been how often is the filter cleaned and is the filter media changed (to new) every time -- or, very often ?  If so, this would prevent sufficient populations of nitrifying bacteria to become established in the filter -- especially if all media is changed at once.
         
        I hope you're able to associate with these points, Larry.  Hopefully you'll see something here that hits home and helps with your similar problem.       
         
        Ray


        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56869 From: PAULA BROWN Date: 11/7/2015
        Subject: Re: Water Question
        Ray asked how many fish were in the 20 gallon tall tank along with plants.  At the most, I had 10 fish and 1 snail and 1 live plant.  It definitely was not overstocked.  I will definitely start doing bigger and more often PWC's.  For the past two weeks, there has been just the snail and the one live plant.

        Paula in Sylvania, Ohio

        On Sat, Nov 7, 2015 at 4:10 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
         

        Alright, that's not a lot and not all the frequent.  I should have also asked you at the same time, if you have a lot of plants in that tank, and/or, when you had fish in this tank, did you keep it stocked fairly lightly (?)
         
        What I'm getting at is that under normal circumstance  -- changing an average of 1/3 of the water once a week, having a moderate (but not heavy) amount of plants and near a moderately full (but not overstocked) fish load -- the nitrogen cycle would produce enough nitrate in two weeks time to show some level of it when you test for it.  It's quite odd that your nitrate reads 0 (zero).  Usually, a constant zero nitrate reading suggests that the tank is not cycled -- has not established a biological cycle.  
         
        I'm leaning towards the possibility of you test kit give erroneous results, although you appear to have a quality test kit.  For now, please shed some light on the question above -- on the fish and plants..
         
        Ray   


        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56870 From: sevenspringss Date: 11/8/2015
        Subject: Re: Water Question
        Paula,
         
        To help rule out that it was the test results that helped create your problem, occasionally members on this group have not read their results accurately.  Not saying that you might fit in this category, but as a suggestion, hold a white card behind the vials when trying to determine the color of the test water.  If you already do that, you can disregard this clue.
         
        Ray  
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56871 From: sevenspringss Date: 11/8/2015
        Subject: Re: Water Question
        Paula,
         
        Thanks for filling me in on why you hadn't continued in the email interchange; I was puzzled by your absence.  Your going out to dinner now makes that understandable.  By "distracted," I meant this could have been any number of things more immediately important, such as someone at your door, a baby needing his or hers diaper changed, your husband needing your help or any other similar situations of which I had no idea of.  I just couldn't figure out why you were no longer there < g
        >.   
         
        Now, getting back to the filter, not adding the carbon is not a wrong step to take.  We've often recommended not to use the carbon only because its active life is comparatively short and indeterminable.  Once expired, it's suspected of releasing the impurities it absorbed back into the water column.
         
        Your putting a new filter on the 20 gallon only two weeks ago would seem to indicate why you're getting the test readings that you've explained.  I understand you used a filter medium that was in the 30 gallon, but as it appears you still have that 30 gallon tank running as an active aquarium, you then couldn't have used all of its filter medium for the 20 gallon but only a portion of this medium.  I'm assuming you hadn't taken all of the 30 gallon's filter medium to put into this new filter as that would leave the 30 with nothing in its filter. 
         
        This is fine, and an excellent way to seed and start the cycle in the 20 gallon's new filter, but there's not enough nitrifying bacteria on this filter medium that you transferred to the new filter to process very much organic waste yet, or your ammonia level would be down to zero if it were.  Cycling a filter can take up to 6 weeks, just to illustrate the time-line involved, but admittedly, this is from scratch.  Seeding a new filter's medium would be considered a jump start -- the size of this jump start dependent upon how large of a portion of the 30 gallon's filter medium you transferred to the 20.  Still, two weeks is just not enough time to have the greater portion of the new filter's new filter medium fully populated.  To illustrate this point also, while anaerobic bacterial infections that we humans can get will multiply at a rate of 10 x within minutes and hundreds of times in much less than an hour, it takes 24 hours for aerobic nitrifying bacteria to double their population; that don't multiply very rapidly.    
         
        I believe this is why we're seeing the 0.25 ppm ammonia and near-zero ppm nitrate readings as your new filter is not yet fully cycled.  As to why this tank has not been successful in the two years prior to your putting a new filter on this 20 gallon, that's yet to be determined.  Obviously, the present water parameters won't tell us anything on that.  I'm jumping ahead to include your last message, letting us know that when you had fish in this tank, you had 10 of them -- and they were guppies and/or neons -- not very large fish.  I'd just like to clarify that didn't suspect your tank as being overcrowded, or even fully stock to the 20 gallon's limit.  I expected this tank to have been sparsely populated with fish, but that was only because of the near-zero nitrate level; BUT, up until your last message, I had thought that there were fish in this tank for the last two weeks, not just the snail and one live plant.  So, I can dismiss your moderately stocked 20 as being a reason for your present water parameters, if I'm understanding this correctly (1 snail and 1 plant, no fish -- last 2 weeks).
         
        We will work further on this in trying to solve this problem.  Perhaps Dawn might be able to jump in here and figure enough more out to determine the cause of your fish losses before two weeks ago.  I regret I won't be available for the rest of this day as I'm going to a fish auction and will momentary have to start bagging some of my fish (those I'm entering in this auction) and get myself ready to get there.
         
        Regards,
         
        Ray   
         
         
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56872 From: PAULA BROWN Date: 11/8/2015
        Subject: Re: Water Question
        Ray wrote:  "Your putting a new filter on the 20 gallon only two weeks ago would seem to indicate why you're getting the test readings that you've explained.  I understand you used a filter medium that was in the 30 gallon, but as it appears you still have that 30 gallon tank running as an active aquarium, you then couldn't have used all of its filter medium for the 20 gallon but only a portion of this medium.  I'm assuming you hadn't taken all of the 30 gallon's filter medium to put into this new filter as that would leave the 30 with nothing in its filter. "

        Actually the 30 gallon has a double filter so I took one of the filters that had been on that tank for a couple of months and put that in the 20 gallon leaving one filter in the 30 gallon.  Then I put a new filter in the 30 gallon to give it two again.

        I am hoping to bring a sample to the reputable fish store today or tomorrow and have them test it for me to dismiss the thought that the test kit I have is not accurate (but it still showed the same results for the 30 gallon which is thriving).  Maybe I can also try to find on the web some way to compare the Lot Numbers from the bottles to see what their expiration date is since it is not listed on the bottles themselves.

        Good luck at the auction!!

        Paula in Sylvania, Ohio

        On Sun, Nov 8, 2015 at 6:31 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
         

        Paula,
         
        Thanks for filling me in on why you hadn't continued in the email interchange; I was puzzled by your absence.  Your going out to dinner now makes that understandable.  By "distracted," I meant this could have been any number of things more immediately important, such as someone at your door, a baby needing his or hers diaper changed, your husband needing your help or any other similar situations of which I had no idea of.  I just couldn't figure out why you were no longer there < g >.   
         
        Now, getting back to the filter, not adding the carbon is not a wrong step to take.  We've often recommended not to use the carbon only because its active life is comparatively short and indeterminable.  Once expired, it's suspected of releasing the impurities it absorbed back into the water column.
         
        Your putting a new filter on the 20 gallon only two weeks ago would seem to indicate why you're getting the test readings that you've explained.  I understand you used a filter medium that was in the 30 gallon, but as it appears you still have that 30 gallon tank running as an active aquarium, you then couldn't have used all of its filter medium for the 20 gallon but only a portion of this medium.  I'm assuming you hadn't taken all of the 30 gallon's filter medium to put into this new filter as that would leave the 30 with nothing in its filter. 
         
        This is fine, and an excellent way to seed and start the cycle in the 20 gallon's new filter, but there's not enough nitrifying bacteria on this filter medium that you transferred to the new filter to process very much organic waste yet, or your ammonia level would be down to zero if it were.  Cycling a filter can take up to 6 weeks, just to illustrate the time-line involved, but admittedly, this is from scratch.  Seeding a new filter's medium would be considered a jump start -- the size of this jump start dependent upon how large of a portion of the 30 gallon's filter medium you transferred to the 20.  Still, two weeks is just not enough time to have the greater portion of the new filter's new filter medium fully populated.  To illustrate this point also, while anaerobic bacterial infections that we humans can get will multiply at a rate of 10 x within minutes and hundreds of times in much less than an hour, it takes 24 hours for aerobic nitrifying bacteria to double their population; that don't multiply very rapidly.    
         
        I believe this is why we're seeing the 0.25 ppm ammonia and near-zero ppm nitrate readings as your new filter is not yet fully cycled.  As to why this tank has not been successful in the two years prior to your putting a new filter on this 20 gallon, that's yet to be determined.  Obviously, the present water parameters won't tell us anything on that.  I'm jumping ahead to include your last message, letting us know that when you had fish in this tank, you had 10 of them -- and they were guppies and/or neons -- not very large fish.  I'd just like to clarify that didn't suspect your tank as being overcrowded, or even fully stock to the 20 gallon's limit.  I expected this tank to have been sparsely populated with fish, but that was only because of the near-zero nitrate level; BUT, up until your last message, I had thought that there were fish in this tank for the last two weeks, not just the snail and one live plant.  So, I can dismiss your moderately stocked 20 as being a reason for your present water parameters, if I'm understanding this correctly (1 snail and 1 plant, no fish -- last 2 weeks).
         
        We will work further on this in trying to solve this problem.  Perhaps Dawn might be able to jump in here and figure enough more out to determine the cause of your fish losses before two weeks ago.  I regret I won't be available for the rest of this day as I'm going to a fish auction and will momentary have to start bagging some of my fish (those I'm entering in this auction) and get myself ready to get there.
         
        Regards,
         
        Ray   
         
         


        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56873 From: PAULA BROWN Date: 11/8/2015
        Subject: Re: Water Question
        Yes Ray, the colors on the API chart have white in between them so that I could read off that.  I am glad to hear that others are confused too though!!  I have been keeping tanks for many years now and I am at a total loss with this tank.  And to top it off, I haven't seen the snail for a couple of days either!   He might just be in the cave because I don't see him floating anywhere. 

        If anyone wants a photo, I could send one privately to you (YahooGroups website has rejected me for a couple of years now and I got sick of writing to them trying to figure out why.  I can still post, but I have to do so via email instead posting directly on the site).

        Paula in Sylvania, Ohio

        On Sun, Nov 8, 2015 at 5:18 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
         

        Paula,
         
        To help rule out that it was the test results that helped create your problem, occasionally members on this group have not read their results accurately.  Not saying that you might fit in this category, but as a suggestion, hold a white card behind the vials when trying to determine the color of the test water.  If you already do that, you can disregard this clue.
         
        Ray  


        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56874 From: Larry Blanchard Date: 11/8/2015
        Subject: Re: Water Question
        On 11/07/2015 06:12 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] wrote:
        > I hope you're able to associate with these points, Larry. Hopefully
        > you'll see something here that hits home and helps with your similar
        > problem.

        Thanks Ray, but I'm well past the point of testing water parameters -
        and they're the same in both the working tank and the fatal one.

        And I'm not talking about slow death. Put a healthy fish in the tank
        (with all due acclimatization) and it's dead in 12-36 hours.

        For my latest attempt, I've planted the bad tank - it had no live plants
        before and the good tank did. I know it's grasping at straws, but
        perhaps there's something in the water that doesn't show up in the
        normal tests but is toxic and plants remove it. I've waited for the
        plants to get well rooted and I'm about ready to add a couple of fish.

        If that doesn't work I've got a brand new 20 gallon tank still in the
        box. I'll try it. If still no joy, I'm going to get someone in to
        check the air in that room. Or, if that's too expensive, just turn the
        tank into plants only.

        Thanks for trying to help.

        --
        Where have all the flowers gone? Pete Seeger 1919-2014
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56875 From: PAULA BROWN Date: 11/8/2015
        Subject: Water Problem
        After some research I found that the Lot Numbers on the bottle (the last four) equals the month and year of manufacture.  Mine list 1210, meaning December 2010.  API said that most of the tests are good for four years.  Which means that they could definitely be past their prime (which makes me mad since it hasn't been that long since I bought it - maybe a year).  Anyways, Amazon Prime has a new API test kit for $19.60 with free delivery so I think I will just got that route.

        I am leaving shortly to bring a water sample to the reputable fish store but they will only test it using test strips so I am not holding my breath.  I will report their results back here later.

        Paula in Sylvania, Ohio
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56876 From: Noura T. Date: 11/8/2015
        Subject: Re: AquaticLife Yahoo! Fish Group ~ Founded: Nov 4, 2002, Wedne...
        Hi John,

        Thank you, I’m much better today J

        I do remember the video when you got the new rescue fish! I’m glad that it’s doing so well, along with her friends.



        Noura



        From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
        Sent: 06 تشرين الثاني, 2015 01:54 م
        To: aquaticlife
        Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] AquaticLife Yahoo! Fish Group ~ Founded: Nov 4, 2002, Wedne...





        

        Hi Noura,

        I didn't realise just how close to Cyprus you were until I had a look on the map. Very glad to hear you're staying safe-hope that keeps up & I also hope you're recovered from your dizzy spell yesterday. Your Guppies sound as if they're adapting to the power outages, they will be super hardy fish! I've got two rescued baby Goldfish now, the female Common I told you about several months ago who is absolutely huge-she's grown two inches in as many months & also a female Comet who's growing fast. She was in a 4 gallon child's 'starter' tank so she's loving being able to swim a full 8 feet in a straight line now. They keep company with my old boy Marmalade who is 12 next February.

        John.



        On 05 November 2015 at 21:19 "'Noura T.' n-ocean@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:





        Dear Ray,



        Thank you for the heartwarming wishes and prayers, much needed and appreciated!

        And sorry for the late reply, I’ve been sick and dizzy since yesterday (feeling a bit better now).



        I’m in a coastal city named Lattakia. While we have our fair share of threats and life difficulties, it remains one of the safest cities in Syria.



        I will try to keep these guppies alive J . They are about 3 months old now and I’m seeing lovely colors developing. These are in my 6 G planted tank near the window, and have been born to 12 hours of no power conditions, yet most of the fry survived. So I’m hopeful!



        In spite of the objections regarding FB groups, I still (oops!) think that it is a good idea, especially in the lack of activity here. One can choose to share as much or as little information that they want on FB, and can also choose the types or notifications to receive (all within the FB environment). I hated it for 2 years, but now I’m a regular user (still cursing Zuckerber every now and then for his s****y FB policies, though!).

        I will stay here, but noticing the inactivity I suggested the bitter sweet solution.



        P.S: No worries about the typo! I’ve made worse in the past (including typing pees instead of peas right here in the group!). Cheers!



        Noura





        From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
        Sent: 04 تشرين الثاني, 2015 04:18 م
        To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] AquaticLife Yahoo! Fish Group ~ Founded: Nov 4, 2002, Wedne...





        Hi Nora,



        Good to hear from you, As always, we've been concerned for you since the last time you were up here. Glad to know that you're alright. We're hearing more and more about what's going on in your country now that this country and Russia are getting more involved. Still, when we hear about the towns and cities where the fighting has been going on, we don't know how near that action is to you or if it's a good distance away.



        Thanks for the kind words you say about this group and its members who've given helpful advice -- and they're numerous. We have a good group here who want nothing else but to see everyone succeed with their fish. Too bad that just about all of the discussions here have dried up as it's always been a good forum on where to obtain valid advice. As for including a parallel Aquatic Life Facebook group, I'm not sure if us moderators are able to do that. I think this may be up to this group's owner (Aaron) to decide if going in that direction is something he'd want to do. I, myself, have never been a fan of Facebook and have never joined any of their FB groups, but I'd go along with it if we ever go there.



        As you have Guppies at this time (which I'm glad to know), I don't think you'll ever be out of fish, knowing how they can so easily multiply. Keep 'em goin'. STAY SAFE !



        Best regards,



        Ray















        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56877 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 11/8/2015
        Subject: Re: Water Question

        Hi Paula,

         I just Googled 'API Test Kit Expiry Date' & did a picture search. It shows both UK & US websites so at least we know they are printed with that info in the US as we ll over here in England. I noticed that both the lot number & expiry date on some of my bottles has worn off over time so they are unreadable! One forum I found suggested that the last four digits of the lot number represent the month & year of manufacture-it goes on to say they are good for 3-4 years.

         John<o)))<

        On 08 November 2015 at 13:03 "PAULA BROWN paulabrown4480@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

         

         

        Ray wrote: " Your putting a new filter on the 20 gallon only two weeks ago would seem to indicate why you're getting the test readings that you've explained. I understand you used a filter medium that was in the 30 gallon, but as it appears you still have that 30 gallon tank running as an active aquarium, you then couldn't have used all of its filter medium for the 20 gallon but only a portion of this medium. I'm assuming you hadn't taken all of the 30 gallon's filter medium to put into this new filter as that would leave the 30 with nothing in its filter. "

        Actually the 30 gallon has a double filter so I took one of the filters that had been on that tank for a couple of months and put that in the 20 gallon leaving one filter in the 30 gallon. Then I put a new filter in the 30 gallon to give it two again.

        I am hoping to bring a sample to the reputable fish store today or tomorrow and have them test it for me to dismiss the thought that the test kit I have is not accurate (but it still showed the same results for the 30 gallon which is thriving). Maybe I can also try to find on the web some way to compare the Lot Numbers from the bottles to see what their expiration date is since it is not listed on the bottles themselves.

        Good luck at the auction!!

        Paula in Sylvania, Ohio

        On Sun, Nov 8, 2015 at 6:31 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] < AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

         

        Paula,
         
        Thanks for filling me in on why you hadn't continued in the email interchange; I was puzzled by your absence. Your going out to dinner now makes that understandable. By "distracted," I meant this could have been any number of things more immediately important, such as someone at your door, a baby needing his or hers diaper changed, your husband needing your help or any other similar situations of which I had no idea of. I just couldn't figure out why you were no longer there < g >.
         
        Now, getting back to the filter, not adding the carbon is not a wrong step to take. We've often recommended not to use the carbon only because its active life is comparatively short and indeterminable. Once expired, it's suspected of releasing the impurities it absorbed back into the water column.
         
        Your putting a new filter on the 20 gallon only two weeks ago would seem to indicate why you're getting the test readings that you've explained. I understand you used a filter medium that was in the 30 gallon, but as it appears you still have that 30 gallon tank running as an active aquarium, you then couldn't have used all of its filter medium for the 20 gallon but only a portion of this medium. I'm assuming you hadn't taken all of the 30 gallon's filter medium to put into this new filter as that would leave the 30 with nothing in its filter.
         
        This is fine, and an excellent way to seed and start the cycle in the 20 gallon's new filter, but there's not enough nitrifying bacteria on this filter medium that you transferred to the new filter to process very much organic waste yet, or your ammonia level would be down to zero if it were. Cycling a filter can take up to 6 weeks, just to illustrate the time-line involved, but admittedly, this is from scratch. Seeding a new filter's medium would be considered a jump start -- the size of this jump start dependent upon how large of a portion of the 30 gallon's filter medium you transferred to the 20. Still, two weeks is just not enough time to have the greater portion of the new filter's new filter medium fully populated. To illustrate this point also, while anaerobic bacterial infections that we humans can get will multiply at a rate of 10 x within minutes and hundreds of times in much less than an hour, it takes 24 hours for aerobic nitrifying bacteria to double their population; that don't multiply very rapidly.
         
        I believe this is why we're seeing the 0.25 ppm ammonia and near-zero ppm nitrate readings as your new filter is not yet fully cycled. As to why this tank has not been successful in the two years prior to your putting a new filter on this 20 gallon, that's yet to be determined. Obviously, the present water parameters won't tell us anything on that. I'm jumping ahead to include your last message, letting us know that when you had fish in this tank, you had 10 of them -- and they were guppies and/or neons -- not very large fish. I'd just like to clarify that didn't suspect your tank as being overcrowded, or even fully stock to the 20 gallon's limit. I expected this tank to have been sparsely populated with fish, but that was only because of the near-zero nitrate level; BUT, up until your last message, I had thought that there were fish in this tank for the last two weeks, not just the snail and one live plant. So, I can dismiss your moderately stocked 20 as being a reason for your present water parameters, if I'm understanding this correctly (1 snail and 1 plant, no fish -- last 2 weeks).
         
        We will work further on this in trying to solve this problem. Perhaps Dawn might be able to jump in here and figure enough more out to determine the cause of your fish losses before two weeks ago. I regret I won't be available for the rest of this day as I'm going to a fish auction and will momentary have to start bagging some of my fish (those I'm entering in this auction) and get myself ready to get there.
         
        Regards,
         
        Ray

         

         

         


         


         

        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56878 From: PAULA BROWN Date: 11/8/2015
        Subject: Water Question
        So I brought some of the 20 gallon tank water to the reputable fish store nearby and spoke with the owner.  I do respect his opinions and he has owned the shop for many years.  He tested the water and came up with the same results I did other than the nitrate was a tiny bit high.  He was stating how hard our water is (we are on the same water system) and that the results were very normal for this area.  He too suggested some large PWC's but could come up with no reason why the fish died.  He said that the water can be hard and hard on neons but that I should not have had any problem with male guppies. 

        His suggestion was to do some major PWC's for about a week and then add some fish.  He also stressed that I should be taking better care of the gravel (aka vacumming it).  Does this sound like a plan to others?

        Paula in Sylvania, Ohio
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56879 From: Noura T. Date: 11/8/2015
        Subject: Re: AquaticLife Yahoo! Fish Group

        Dear Ray,

         

        Thank you, I have almost recovered from that annoying gastric illness!

         

        Although the 6G is a small volume of water, which makes it prone to greater temperature fluctuations, its temperature almost never drops below 22-23  ̊C during power outages.

        Our Mediterranean winters are not extremely cold, I haven’t needed to plug the heaters yet although we’re in November. I wonder if daily fluctuations by 3-4 degrees are okay for guppies.

         

        The two bigger tanks go through smaller drops in temperature. I’m not losing fish in winter, they often pass in Summer. So I guess the situation in those two tanks is under control regarding temperature.

         

        All the best,

        Noura

         

         

        From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
        Sent: 06 تشرين الثاني, 2015 07:55 م
        To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] AquaticLife Yahoo! Fish Group ~ Founded: Nov 4, 2002, Wedne...

         

         

        Dear Noura,

         

        Sorry to hear you weren't feeling well a couple of days ago, but I'm glad you're feeling better.  That dizziness is often a sure sign of some sort of illness and not very pleasant.  Nice to know that you're in one of the safest cities in Syria; that's very assuring. 

         

        On helping keeping the Guppies alive in the Winter if the power goes out, if you cook by natural gas you could partially fill some plastic bottles with hot water heated on the stove and float them in your tank to prevent the temperature from dropping too far.  Might have to get up in the middle of the night if the power is still out, to add a bottle of heated water but it's one sure way of stabilizing the water above 21 o (C) until the power comes back on.  

         

        I understand your reasoning for suggesting FB as a way of livening fish discussions.  As I've never joined, I can't really say from experience how much I.D. absconding this group can implement on its members.  I hear and read lots of negative things about FB, but also hear lots of positive things from friends and members in my local fish club -- even recommendations/suggestions that I should join.  When I hear these positive things, my thoughts are just that these friends may not be on FB long enough to know there I.D.'s are being used, but I can't say for sure.  I think I'd rather play it safe though, and stay out of it.  

         

        BTW, somehow I think I remember that "pees" comment < g >.  

         

        Best regards,

         

        Ray     

        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56880 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 11/8/2015
        Subject: Re: Water Question

        Hi Paula,

         Yes it does-how deep is your gravel?

         John<o)))<

        On 08 November 2015 at 22:35 "PAULA BROWN paulabrown4480@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

         

         

        So I brought some of the 20 gallon tank water to the reputable fish store nearby and spoke with the owner. I do respect his opinions and he has owned the shop for many years. He tested the water and came up with the same results I did other than the nitrate was a tiny bit high. He was stating how hard our water is (we are on the same water system) and that the results were very normal for this area. He too suggested some large PWC's but could come up with no reason why the fish died. He said that the water can be hard and hard on neons but that I should not have had any problem with male guppies.

        His suggestion was to do some major PWC's for about a week and then add some fish. He also stressed that I should be taking better care of the gravel (aka vacumming it). Does this sound like a plan to others?

        Paula in Sylvania, Ohio

         


         


         

        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56881 From: PAULA BROWN Date: 11/8/2015
        Subject: Re: Water Question
        John, the gravel is about one inch deep.  Maybe a little bit more.

        Paula in Sylvania, Ohio

        On Sun, Nov 8, 2015 at 7:04 PM, SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
         

        Hi Paula,

         Yes it does-how deep is your gravel?

         John<o)))<

        On 08 November 2015 at 22:35 "PAULA BROWN paulabrown4480@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

         

         

        So I brought some of the 20 gallon tank water to the reputable fish store nearby and spoke with the owner. I do respect his opinions and he has owned the shop for many years. He tested the water and came up with the same results I did other than the nitrate was a tiny bit high. He was stating how hard our water is (we are on the same water system) and that the results were very normal for this area. He too suggested some large PWC's but could come up with no reason why the fish died. He said that the water can be hard and hard on neons but that I should not have had any problem with male guppies.

        His suggestion was to do some major PWC's for about a week and then add some fish. He also stressed that I should be taking better care of the gravel (aka vacumming it). Does this sound like a plan to others?

        Paula in Sylvania, Ohio

         


         


         


        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56882 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 11/8/2015
        Subject: Re: Water Question

        Giving the gravel a good vacuuming right to the bottom of the tank each time you do a partial water change will go a long way to removing a lot of debris such as fish waste, uneaten food or dead plant matter. In addition I would suggest taking out at least 50% of the gravel leaving half an inch or less in your tank because deep gravel can trap a lot of bad bacteria & also removing some of it will give your fish more open water to swim in.

         John<o)))<

        On 09 November 2015 at 01:13 "PAULA BROWN paulabrown4480@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

         

         

        John, the gravel is about one inch deep. Maybe a little bit more.

        Paula in Sylvania, Ohio

        On Sun, Nov 8, 2015 at 7:04 PM, SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@... [AquaticLife] < AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

         

        Hi Paula,

        Yes it does-how deep is your gravel?

        John<o)))<

        On 08 November 2015 at 22:35 "PAULA BROWN paulabrown4480@... [AquaticLife]" < AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


        So I brought some of the 20 gallon tank water to the reputable fish store nearby and spoke with the owner. I do respect his opinions and he has owned the shop for many years. He tested the water and came up with the same results I did other than the nitrate was a tiny bit high. He was stating how hard our water is (we are on the same water system) and that the results were very normal for this area. He too suggested some large PWC's but could come up with no reason why the fish died. He said that the water can be hard and hard on neons but that I should not have had any problem with male guppies.

        His suggestion was to do some major PWC's for about a week and then add some fish. He also stressed that I should be taking better care of the gravel (aka vacumming it). Does this sound like a plan to others?

        Paula in Sylvania, Ohio




         

         

         


         


         

        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56883 From: sevenspringss Date: 11/9/2015
        Subject: Re: Water Question
        Hi Paula,
         
        I see, as per John's suggestion, that you've checked out your test kit for it possibly being expired and found it to be somewhat older than its expiration date (despite your buying it only a year ago).  Real bummer !   Looks like those test results you provided may not have been any good.  Still, even if they are good, as you haven't had fish in this 20 gallon for the last two weeks, these results don't tell us what your parameters were when they were alive. 
         
        As healthy fish died within 12 to 36 hours of adding them to this tank at that time, we can see that there must have been something extremely toxic in the tank and that their deaths were not just due to an illness.  As the same water is being used in both tanks, and as the 30 gallon is doing fine, I have to dismiss your water source (and its water) as having toxic elements -- including possible heavy metals -- as I know of no plants that absorb and use such toxic metals.  Additionally, most water conditioners that you use remove heavy metals.  To be sure, read the label on your water conditioner to see it that pertains to the one you're using.  
         
        Your "experiment" still can't hurt to be tried if you want to add a test fish or two to the now--recently-planted bad tank.  While many of us don't like to see any fish get used in a manner that could endanger their lives, this would be for the better cause in helping towards the prevention of the deaths of a whole tank of fish "down the road." 
         
        Before adding the fish, get the test results for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate with the new test kit you're planning to purchase.  Continue to take tests for the 36 hours you said that no new fish can survive after.  If at no point, the water parameters don't reach a point of their being toxic, then it would seem to appear that there is something else toxic in the water that is being added to the water after this tank is filled from your water source, if the test fish dies.  If the test fish lives, this could indicate the toxin is in your water source and that the plants are indeed removing it.  As we don't know the water parameters two weeks ago when the last fish died, the problem still could have been too high of elevations of ammonia or nitrite at that time, which we'll never know, even if the test fish lives this time.  You did mention checking the air in that room, so I'm assuming that the 30 gallon is in a different room, or else it would be subjected to that same air (and should be having fish deaths too if that's the problem). 
         
        BTW, I'm assuming that the only thing you've done differently to this bad tank is to plant it -- and not change out the water for new -- is that right?  (notice, while we don't know the accuracy of your old test kit, I'm still suspect of the tank not having been cycled -- or has been in a mini-cycle as of at least two weeks ago).   
         
        Ray       
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56884 From: sevenspringss Date: 11/9/2015
        Subject: Re: Water Question
        Paula,
         
        While vacuuming the gravel is a major step in a tank's maintenance routine, the lack of this step should not result in killing healthy fish within 36 hours -- unless this step has been almost completely neglected for the two years you've had it running.  Trapped, uneaten food can get down into it and add significantly to increased ammonia levels.  As John mentions, deep gravel can trap a lot of bad bacteria -- the trapped organic waste within the gravel putrifies as a result of anaerobic bacteria feeding on it.  These anaerobic bacteria release toxic gases (hydrogen and methane) which can kill fish. 
         
        I understand that your gravel is only 1" deep though, which would normally preclude much colonization of these types of bacteria and the danger from the toxic gases they produce -- because of the shallowness of the gravel not being able to hold much gas -- but, this danger increases dramatically when little or not attention is being made to vacuuming the gravel regularly.  To retain a cycle, the gravel in one half of the tank should be deep-cleaned on one week, then the remaining gravel on the other half of the tank should be deep-cleaned on the alternate weeks.  This prevents the nitrifying bacteria living on top of the gravel from being fully depleted. 
         
        Too, while I understand (and agree with) John's recommendation of reducing the gravel to only 1/2" for easier maintenance, if you plan on keeping the plants in this tank, it becomes difficult to anchor them in much less than an inch of gravel.  For this reason, I'd say to keep the gravel at 1", but to vacuum it regularly.  I don't know how heavily you have it planted, but vacuuming too close to the plant roots can be a problem.  Just need to be careful in those areas. 
         
        Ray  
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56885 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 11/9/2015
        Subject: Re: Water Question

        Yes, I'd failed to take your plants into consideration with regard to lowering the gravel level. All my plants are in regular planters so not a problem but obviously when they are growing directly into the substrate you need to look after the roots. I would think that any detritus near the roots would get used up by the plant as fertiliser.

         John.

        On 09 November 2015 at 15:05 "sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


         

         

        Paula,
         
        While vacuuming the gravel is a major step in a tank's maintenance routine, the lack of this step should not result in killing healthy fish within 36 hours -- unless this step has been almost completely neglected for the two years you've had it running.  Trapped, uneaten food can get down into it and add significantly to increased ammonia levels.  As John mentions, deep gravel can trap a lot of bad bacteria -- the trapped organic waste within the gravel putrifies as a result of anaerobic bacteria feeding on it.  These anaerobic bacteria release toxic gases (hydrogen and methane) which can kill fish. 
         
        I understand that your gravel is only 1" deep though, which would normally preclude much colonization of these types of bacteria and the danger from the toxic gases they produce -- because of the shallowness of the gravel not being able to hold much gas -- but, this danger increases dramatically when little or not attention is being made to vacuuming the gravel regularly.  To retain a cycle, the gravel in one half of the tank should be deep-cleaned on one week, then the remaining gravel on the other half of the tank should be deep-cleaned on the alternate weeks.  This prevents the nitrifying bacteria living on top of the gravel from being fully depleted. 
         
        Too, while I understand (and agree with) John's recommendation of reducing the gravel to only 1/2" for easier maintenance, if you plan on keeping the plants in this tank, it becomes difficult to anchor them in much less than an inch of gravel.  For this reason, I'd say to keep the gravel at 1", but to vacuum it regularly.  I don't know how heavily you have it planted, but vacuuming too close to the plant roots can be a problem.  Just need to be careful in those areas. 
         
        Ray  

         


         


         

        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56886 From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c Date: 11/9/2015
        Subject: Re: AquaticLife Yahoo! Fish Group ~ Founded: Nov 4, 2002, Wedne...
        Larry, sorry to hear you had to go through all of that.  <hugs>
        I was lucky enough to avoid the hospital, but just barely.  Dr debated whether or not to admit me but I insisted I wanted to recover at home if at all possible.  I was also diagnosed with COPD, and I already had asthma, none of which helped.  I'm not to the point of needing oxygen yet, but dr made it clear that if I don't start making changes and focusing more on my health, it wouldn't be long before I do.  So... I started making some changes.  It hasn't sat well with some of my family members because my world no longer revolves around them, but they will get over it or get used to it, lol. 

        Dawn
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56887 From: Larry Blanchard Date: 11/9/2015
        Subject: Re: Water Question
        On 11/08/2015 07:18 PM, SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@...
        [AquaticLife] wrote:
        > Giving the gravel a good vacuuming right to the bottom of the tank
        > each time you do a partial water change will go a long way to removing
        > a lot of debris such as fish waste, uneaten food or dead plant matter.
        > In addition I would suggest taking out at least 50% of the gravel
        > leaving half an inch or less in your tank because deep gravel can trap
        > a lot of bad bacteria & also removing some of it will give your fish
        > more open water to swim in.

        The only caveat I would have to that is if you want a lot of live
        plants. That stuff you're removing is plant food :-).

        Otherwise, John is correct.

        --
        Where have all the flowers gone? Pete Seeger 1919-2014
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56888 From: Larry Blanchard Date: 11/9/2015
        Subject: Re: AquaticLife Yahoo! Fish Group ~ Founded: Nov 4, 2002, Wedne...
        On 11/09/2015 12:55 PM, dawnshungryeyes4u2c@... [AquaticLife] wrote:
        > I was lucky enough to avoid the hospital, but just barely. Dr debated
        > whether or not to admit me but I insisted I wanted to recover at home
        > if at all possible. I was also diagnosed with COPD, and I already had
        > asthma, none of which helped.

        Yeah, mine was fairly mild the first time. But I also have COPD and a
        little asthma (exercise triggered). Dr told me that made me more likely
        to have more bouts and he was right. A guy I know has had it 7 times.
        The 2nd time was worse than it should have been because I, and the
        doctor, thought it was the flu. Don't ever get pneumonia in the midst
        of flu season :-).

        Glad yours was mild, but be careful if you get any kind of respiratory
        illness. Assume the worst and get looked at as soon as possible. My
        doctor now says anything like that in my case and he's going to throw
        antibiotics at it just to be safe, something he doesn't normally do.

        --
        Where have all the flowers gone? Pete Seeger 1919-2014
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56889 From: sevenspringss Date: 11/9/2015
        Subject: Re: Water Question
        Too much organic-waste "plant food," too long trapped in the substrate putrifies in anaerobic condition with the aid of heterotrophic bacteria producing too much noxious gases.
         
        Ray
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56890 From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c Date: 11/10/2015
        Subject: OT/Photo album in the group
        I created an album titled "Dawn's OT photos" so I could share some pics with the group.  It allows me to go through the steps to add photos to the album but then nothing shows up.  Any suggestions? 
        (just to clarify, it says the photos are uploaded, then when I click on "post photos" the album is still empty.  Not sure what's going on...)


        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56891 From: Dawn Moneyhan Date: 11/10/2015
        Subject: Dawn's OT Photos
          Dawn Moneyhan
        Aquatics Specialist/Nutritionist
        To learn more about me go to
        http://www.helium.com/users/449334


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56892 From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c Date: 11/10/2015
        Subject: Re: Dawn's OT Photos
        Sorry for the blank message... I was working through one of the Yahoo help topics trying to post some photos into a new album.  I notice it says that non text portions of the message have been removed, so not sure if maybe the problem has to do with the group settings?  If any of the mods can offer me some assistance it would be greatly appreciated.
        Thanks.

        Dawn
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56893 From: PAULA BROWN Date: 11/10/2015
        Subject: Water Question - Update
        My apologies for not getting back to the group.  Our dog died.  Perfectly fine at midnight, at the emergency clinic at 5:00 am in distress, and euthanized at 8:00 am.  Cancer but didn't show any signs until the end.  I am walking around in a depressed fog and honestly the tank is the last thing on my mind.

        Paula in Sylvania, Ohio

        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56894 From: Harry Perry Date: 11/10/2015
        Subject: Re: Pauls....Water Question - Update
        Sorry to hear about your dog. I know they can be a beloved part of the family.

        Harry
        --------------------------------------------
        On Tue, 11/10/15, PAULA BROWN paulabrown4480@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

        Subject: [AquaticLife] Water Question - Update
        To: aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Tuesday, November 10, 2015, 5:20 PM


         









        My apologies for not
        getting back to the group.  Our dog died.  Perfectly
        fine at midnight, at the emergency clinic at 5:00 am in
        distress, and euthanized at 8:00 am.  Cancer but
        didn't show any signs until the end.  I am walking
        around in a depressed fog and honestly the tank is the last
        thing on my mind.

        Paula in Sylvania, Ohio



















        Posted by: PAULA BROWN
        <paulabrown4480@...>




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        .
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56895 From: sevenspringss Date: 11/10/2015
        Subject: Re: Water Question - Update
        Dear Paula,
         
        I'm so, so sorry to hear about you losing your beloved dog.  I know what it's like to lose a pet like that, which has become part of the family.  I'd like to extend my sincere condolences to you in this time of grief, hoping that time and good memories you had with your dog will heal your loss.
         
        Sincerely,
         
        Ray 
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56896 From: o1bigtenor Date: 11/10/2015
        Subject: Re: OT/Photo album in the group
        Greetings

        On Tue, Nov 10, 2015 at 2:25 PM, dawnshungryeyes4u2c@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


        I created an album titled "Dawn's OT photos" so I could share some pics with the group.  It allows me to go through the steps to add photos to the album but then nothing shows up.  Any suggestions? 
        (just to clarify, it says the photos are uploaded, then when I click on "post photos" the album is still empty.  Not sure what's going on...)



        Went online to check (yahoo is known to be quite useless) and I cannot see any such folder of pics either!

        Dee
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56897 From: o1bigtenor Date: 11/10/2015
        Subject: Re: Dawn's OT Photos
        On Tue, Nov 10, 2015 at 3:30 PM, Dawn Moneyhan
        dawnshungryeyes4u2c@... [AquaticLife]
        <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
        > Â Dawn Moneyhan
        > Aquatics Specialist/Nutritionist
        > To learn more about me go to
        > http://www.helium.com/users/449334

        Your url comes up[ as a 404 error (not found!).

        Dee
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56898 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 11/11/2015
        Subject: Re: Water Question - Update

        Hi Paula,

         Really sad to hear about your dear dog, we will still be here when you feel able to sort your tanks-take care.

         John<o)))<

        On 10 November 2015 at 22:20 "PAULA BROWN paulabrown4480@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

         

         

        My apologies for not getting back to the group. Our dog died. Perfectly fine at midnight, at the emergency clinic at 5:00 am in distress, and euthanized at 8:00 am. Cancer but didn't show any signs until the end. I am walking around in a depressed fog and honestly the tank is the last thing on my mind.

        Paula in Sylvania, Ohio

         


         


         

        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56899 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 11/11/2015
        Subject: Re: OT/Photo album in the group

        Hi Dawn,

         Nothing showing up for me either, the last photos I can see posted were from Noura dated Aug 12th.

         John<o)))<

        On 10 November 2015 at 20:25 "dawnshungryeyes4u2c@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

         

        I created an album titled "Dawn's OT photos" so I could share some pics with the group.  It allows me to go through the steps to add photos to the album but then nothing shows up.  Any suggestions? 
        (just to clarify, it says the photos are uploaded, then when I click on "post photos" the album is still empty.  Not sure what's going on...)


         


         


         

        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56900 From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c Date: 11/11/2015
        Subject: Re: Dawn's OT Photos
        Yeah, I'm not sure what's going on Dee.  I really dislike this format for groups.  I've had nothing but issues with it since they changed it... and yahoo email hasn't been so wonderful lately either.  :-(
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56901 From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c Date: 11/12/2015
        Subject: Re: OT/Photo album in the group
        I guess this means I just won't be able to post any photos in the group anymore :(  That sucks.  I really hate yahoo. 

        Dawn
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56902 From: sevenspringss Date: 11/12/2015
        Subject: Re: OT/Photo album in the group
        Hi Dawn,
         
        I approved your latest attempt at posting your photos this afternoon.  I see nothing (again) announcing they've been posted though.  Really wish I could help, but it's beyond me.  I hated it when Yahoo first introduced their "Neo."  Their previous format was so easy to navigate.  Seems almost like they're pushing their members into FB.
         
        Ray 
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56903 From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c Date: 11/13/2015
        Subject: Re: OT/Photo album in the group
        Thanks Ray but after a dozen attempts I just gave up.  It says they've uploaded but nothing shows up and the folder says it's empty after I'm finished so I just deleted the folder and called it done.  I wasted an entire afternoon trying to upload them, even going through Yahoo's help section and complaining directly to Yahoo about it, but of course, even their "contact us" simply takes you to a less than helpful Q&A page but doesn't allow you to actually contact them.  I don't have the time to waste on that anymore. 
        Sorry to all those who wanted to see the photos. 

        Ray, if you have the ability to do it, feel free to try from your end to post the photos I just sent to you in email.  Maybe as a mod Yahoo will let you do it. 

        Dawn 
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56904 From: sevenspringss Date: 11/13/2015
        Subject: Re: OT/Photo album in the group
        Hi Dawn,
         
        I'm really sorry you weren't able to post those pics.  Sorry too that you had to waste all that time.  With no real live person to talk to, that shows they can't really care very much about their groups' members.  As for my posting them, I'd be glad to try, but as I said, I don't know the first thing about computers or how to go about posting pics.  If I did, I would have been posting photos of my own 10 years ago or more.
         
        Ray
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56905 From: oldies1433 Date: 11/13/2015
        Subject: Photo's????

        Hi Dawn,

        Just a thought here but maybe consider Flicker or Photobucket?

        They are free and very easy use; then you could just post the site link on

        Group.  Lots of talk about Facebook.  I got over there and I could not see any more

        Postings than group!  Whatever they are chatting about, it sure isn’t fish!

        Best Wishes,

        Bill

         

         

         

        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56906 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 11/13/2015
        Subject: Re: Photo's????


         As a long time member of Flickr I agree with Bill, that's great idea posting them there-I've never come across any problems with Flickr & regularly post my [non-fish] photos there. The photos can be viewed at all sizes up to the original uploaded.

         John<o)))<

        On 13 November 2015 at 23:53 "oldies1433 db1433@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

         

         

        Hi Dawn,

        Just a thought here but maybe consider Flicker or Photobucket?

        They are free and very easy use; then you could just post the site link on

        Group. Lots of talk about Facebook. I got over there and I could not see any more

        Postings than group! Whatever they are chatting about, it sure isn’t fish!

        Best Wishes,

        Bill

         

         

         

         


         


         

        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56907 From: Angela Cancilla Herschel Date: 11/13/2015
        Subject: Hermit Crab
        Hi Everyone,
        I know if anyone knows or knows someone ....it will be you people!
        We rescued a poor beautiful big hermit crab ( looks just like the ones I saw on the remote Seram island in Indonesia when I was teaching how to stop trapping wildlife and staying in Sawai village ( most never saw a white person before) .
        I know they can live into their late 30's and require climbing ...dechlorinated water etc.
        My question is they naturally live in groups and I am wondering if anyone knows if this place is good they list ?  Or if they themselves are a legitimate rescue?
        I'm undecided whether to give him up to  really good home ...or to this rescue ....or get another one and do our best ?
        I am in Los Angeles in  the South/West part of the San Fernando Valley, in West Hills ( Calabasas Woodland Hills  , Malibu , close are by)


        Hermit Crab Rescue:





        Ciao, Angela Cancilla Herschel, CPBC;   
        California
        Member:  IAABC - IAATE

        Being kind is more important ..than being important. ~

        California Wildlife Center,volunteer ~
        www.cawildlife.org

        sent from my iPhone 
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56908 From: sevenspringss Date: 11/14/2015
        Subject: Re: Hermit Crab
        Hi Angela,
         
        I'd like to say that this group is as good as any similar group having to do with aquatic creatures.  But, most members here are primarily interested in, and have knowledge of, freshwater aquarium fishes.  There are a smaller number of members though who delve in marine aquatics and who may be able to assist you further.
         
        For starters, it appears that your outline of the critter in question leaves a lot to be filled in.  Of the 500 or so species of hermit crabs in existence, about 15 of these species are terrestrial.  Then, some aquatic species reside in a marine environment while still others are freshwater species.  You don't state what type of species yours is (do you know?), but unless I'm wrong (and, entirely possible), the fact that yours appears to require climbing would seem to indicate it's a terrestrial species.  Too, that it needs dechlorinated water might indicate that it's a freshwater species if this water is to be its environment.  But then too, and especially if it's a terrestrial species, these hermit crabs need to be supplied with a bowl of freshwater and a bowl of marine water in their cages for them to choose from according to their different needs at any one time.  The container's water should be deep enough to cover it, and a small natural sea sponge can be placed into these containers to facilitate it's climbing back out of the water more easily.  
         
        Despite their being called "hermit" crabs, they do enjoy a social life with others of their kind.  As they can battle for new shells when they outgrow their present one, a number of other larger shells should be provided when maintaining more than one to prevent possible ultimate cannibalism.  I'm gathering that you're asking whether the three groups you listed below your message are good ones to visit and get knowledge from (that wasn't readily apparent, and I wasn't sure at first what you meant).  While I know nothing at all about any of these three sites, I see that they're all lead to San Fernando Valley Hermit Crab Rescue when opened.  Still, it looks like a worthwhile group to consider a "rescue" with, unless you feel that you have enough knowledge of these animals to be capable of taking care of them, if you should get another.  
         
        Ray
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56909 From: Angela Cancilla Herschel Date: 11/15/2015
        Subject: Re: Hermit Crab

        Hi Ray,

        Thank you so much for replying.
        Right now the hermit crab only has a "rock looking" water bowl that is dechlorinated....and h/she has a substrate that is deep enough to dig into. He also has rock formations to climb on and hiding cave spots. 

        I am not happy with his currant plastic enclosure and know he needs a glass aquarium set up like the photos in the website ( and more humidity).
         I am assuming this hermit crab is a terrestrial/ freshwater ....trying to find out more .
        I saw in the website below if you click on more information it brings you to a forum you can join with experts just on hermit crabs. 





        >Hi Angela,

        I'd like to say that this group is as good as any similar group having to 
        do with aquatic creatures. But, most members here are primarily interested 
        in, and have knowledge of, freshwater aquarium fishes. There are a 
        smaller number of members though who delve in marine aquatics and who may be able 
        to assist you further.

        For starters, it appears that your outline of the critter in question 
        leaves a lot to be filled in. Of the 500 or so species of hermit crabs in 
        existence, about 15 of these species are terrestrial. Then, some aquatic 
        species reside in a marine environment while still others are freshwater  
        species. You don't state what type of species yours is (do you know?), but unless 
        I'm wrong (and, entirely possible), the fact that yours appears to require 
        climbing would seem to indicate it's a terrestrial species. Too, that it 
        needs dechlorinated water might indicate that it's a freshwater species if 
        this water is to be its environment. But then too, and especially if it's 
        a terrestrial species, these hermit crabs need to be supplied with a bowl 
        of freshwater and a bowl of marine water in their cages for them to choose 
        from according to their different needs at any one time. The container' s 
        water should be deep enough to cover it, and a small natural sea sponge can 
        be placed into these containers to facilitate it's climbing back out of the 
        water more easily.  

        Despite their being called "hermit" crabs, they do enjoy a social life 
        with others of their kind. As they can battle for new shells when they 
        outgrow their present one, a number of other larger shells should be provided 
        when maintaining more than one to prevent possible ultimate cannibalism. I'm 
        gathering that you're asking whether the three groups you listed below your 
        message are good ones to visit and get knowledge from (that wasn't readily 
        apparent, and I wasn't sure at first what you meant). While I know 
        nothing at all about any of these three sites, I see that they're all lead to San 
        Fernando Valley Hermit Crab Rescue when opened. Still, it looks like a 
        worthwhile group to consider a "rescue" with, unless you feel that you have 
        enough knowledge of these animals to be capable of taking care of them, if 
        you should get another.  

        Ray

        Ciao, Angela Cancilla Herschel, CPBC;   
        California
        Member:  IAABC - IAATE

        Being kind is more important ..than being important. ~

        California Wildlife Center,volunteer ~
        www.cawildlife.org

        sent from my iPhone 
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56910 From: sevenspringss Date: 11/15/2015
        Subject: Re: Hermit Crab
        Hi Angela,
         
        Looks like the group you have links to is a worthwhile place to join.  They could tell you a lot more about your hermit crab than I can.  Hope you're feeding it properly.  They should be given a piece of fish at least once a week.  If you plan on keeping it, you ought to considering joining there.
         
        Ray
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56911 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 12/9/2015
        Subject: Possible Gill Burns?

        Hi Noura,

         Maybe in addition to a lot of water changes you could add some stress coat if you have any?

         John<o)))<

        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56912 From: noura_taweel Date: 12/9/2015
        Subject: Ammonia burns (?)
        Hi to all,

        I suspect that my Clown Loach has gills 'burns'  :(
        It's gasping and no appetite.

        I have used new fish food for them, bad local quality because the only other available option was chinese fish food that expired in 2013! (Yes the LFSs are selling it). My fish didn't like the new food, I feel that it's only flour, salt, and colorings. But not sure. Perhaps they didn't eat the usual amount and leftovers caused an ammonia rise (?) I changed 50% twice already and added air bubbles but no change.

        If it's gill burns, what can I do?

        Thank you,
        Noura


        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56913 From: Noura T. Date: 12/9/2015
        Subject: Re: Possible Gill Burns?

        Hi John,

         

        I will call the fish store to see if they have such exotic products ;-)

        Will salt help or hurt?

         

        Thank you,

        Noura

         

        From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
        Sent: 10 كانون الأول, 2015 03:43 ص
        To: aquaticlife
        Subject: [AquaticLife] Possible Gill Burns?

         

         

        Hi Noura,

         Maybe in addition to a lot of water changes you could add some stress coat if you have any?

         John<o)))<

        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56914 From: sevenspringss Date: 12/10/2015
        Subject: Re: Possible Gill Burns?
        Hi Noura,
         
        For the time being, I would use the Chinese fish food even though it's long past it's expiration date -- if its make-up isn't similar to this new fish food appearing to be made mostly of flour.  At least its ingredients might be more natural, even if it no longer is that nourishing.  This would be only temporary though (if it's of better quality), until you can get some newer fish food.  The fish still need something to eat and perhaps that could tide them over. 
         
        Now, if you're sure this new food contains salt, do you see it dissolve when it hits the water?  This might tell you if in fact it is salt.  For the fish to eat any appreciable amount of salt over time though, cannot be very good for it.  It could interfere with its osmoregulatory system -- that bodily function that fish use to balance the amount of water vs minerals in their bloodstream and tissues.  A little bit wouldn't seem to hurt though.
         
        Not knowing for how long you've been feeding this new food, if its been over an extended period of time, and if it is primarily just flour, this very well could cause an ammonia build up as it decays, as you suspect.  Your doing a couple of 50% PWC's is fine, but still, if the fish has developed ammonia poisoning from it, this condition can only be reversed by adding salt to the water -- in the amount of 3 teaspoons of salt per U.S. gallon (3.785 Litres) for between two and up to three weeks -- which Clown Loaches will not tolerate.  While it's far too late at this point in time to have an ammonia toxicity program in place, it only takes a very small amount of salt in the water at all times, like 1/8 teaspoon per gallon or less, to prevent ammonia poisoning from ever happening at all when this token amount of salt in constantly maintained.  For now, you can try using the usual dosage of salt used for Ich treatments -- at 1 Tablespoon per 5 U.S. gallons -- which Clown Loaches will tolerate, but right now after the fish has developed ammonia poisoning (if it has), this much smaller level of salt will take considerably longer to correct this problem. 
         
        I'm guessing you don't have an ammonia test kit, or you would have already tested the water for any content of it before doing the partial water changes.  Could you please give us the pH test reading?  Ammonia becomes more toxic as the pH increases.  If your pH is nearer neutral (pH 7.0), the chances are more remote that toxic ammonia has built up.  Much of it would be in the form of relatively non-toxic ammonium.  Depending again on how long this food has been used, and how much ammonia has been converted to nitrite during this time, nitrite poisoning could have developed, especially as the pH becomes more acidic.  That can be correct by using Methylene Blue, but as Clown Loaches are scale-less fish, it doesn't take much of this dye medication to penetrate their skin to become toxic to them.  Clown Loaches are more touchy in this respect, only because they're scale-less fish.  This is also why you can't use larger amounts of salt in their water, as it would tend to dehydrate them.
         
        One further question, you mentioned suspecting this new food may contain food coloring (a dye).  Do you see it changing the color of the water? 
         
        Gill burns can be caused by too low of a pH -- the water being too acidic.  This can cause the symptoms you mentioned.  Again, pH reading, especially before you've done PWC's would indicate this.  I don't know of any short-term remedy for this.  Damage is done by gill burns, which takes time for repairing and it's not always a 100% repair.  Water with low nitrate content (via large & frequent PWC's) will help.  Oh, another question; how much and how often have you been making PWC's on this tank, and how long have you had this Clown Loach in the tank?  I'm guessing its a fairly new fish as you hadn't mentioned it recently.
         
        Ray    
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56915 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 12/10/2015
        Subject: Re: Possible Gill Burns?

        Hi Ray,

         I hope I'm not out of line asking but I wonder of Noura is using imperial [UK] measurements or US standards? The reason being is that US & UK sizes of both tablespoons & I think also teaspoons is different & that is something which has confused me in the past.  Certainly in smaller tanks it could seriously affect the amounts of dosages if one instead of the other were used. Added to that both US & UK gallons are different sizes! Perhaps if you could give the gram weight of each measurement?

         John<o)))<


         

         

        Hi Noura,
         
        For the time being, I would use the Chinese fish food even though it's long past it's expiration date -- if its make-up isn't similar to this new fish food appearing to be made mostly of flour.  At least its ingredients might be more natural, even if it no longer is that nourishing.  This would be only temporary though (if it's of better quality), until you can get some newer fish food.  The fish still need something to eat and perhaps that could tide them over. 
         
        Now, if you're sure this new food contains salt, do you see it dissolve when it hits the water?  This might tell you if in fact it is salt.  For the fish to eat any appreciable amount of salt over time though, cannot be very good for it.  It could interfere with its osmoregulatory system -- that bodily function that fish use to balance the amount of water vs minerals in their bloodstream and tissues.  A little bit wouldn't seem to hurt though.
         
        Not knowing for how long you've been feeding this new food, if its been over an extended period of time, and if it is primarily just flour, this very well could cause an ammonia build up as it decays, as you suspect.  Your doing a couple of 50% PWC's is fine, but still, if the fish has developed ammonia poisoning from it, this condition can only be reversed by adding salt to the water -- in the amount of 3 teaspoons of salt per U.S. gallon (3.785 Litres) for between two and up to three weeks -- which Clown Loaches will not tolerate.  While it's far too late at this point in time to have an ammonia toxicity program in place, it only takes a very small amount of salt in the water at all times, like 1/8 teaspoon per gallon or less, to prevent ammonia poisoning from ever happening at all when this token amount of salt in constantly maintained.  For now, you can try using the usual dosage of salt used for Ich treatments -- at 1 Tablespoon per 5 U.S. gallons -- which Clown Loaches will tolerate, but right now after the fish has developed ammonia poisoning (if it has), this much smaller level of salt will take considerably longer to correct this problem. 
         
        I'm guessing you don't have an ammonia test kit, or you would have already tested the water for any content of it before doing the partial water changes.  Could you please give us the pH test reading?  Ammonia becomes more toxic as the pH increases.  If your pH is nearer neutral (pH 7.0), the chances are more remote that toxic ammonia has built up.  Much of it would be in the form of relatively non-toxic ammonium.  Depending again on how long this food has been used, and how much ammonia has been converted to nitrite during this time, nitrite poisoning could have developed, especially as the pH becomes more acidic.  That can be correct by using Methylene Blue, but as Clown Loaches are scale-less fish, it doesn't take much of this dye medication to penetrate their skin to become toxic to them.  Clown Loaches are more touchy in this respect, only because they're scale-less fish.  This is also why you can't use larger amounts of salt in their water, as it would tend to dehydrate them.
         
        One further question, you mentioned suspecting this new food may contain food coloring (a dye).  Do you see it changing the color of the water? 
         
        Gill burns can be caused by too low of a pH -- the water being too acidic.  This can cause the symptoms you mentioned.  Again, pH reading, especially before you've done PWC's would indicate this.  I don't know of any short-term remedy for this.  Damage is done by gill burns, which takes time for repairing and it's not always a 100% repair.  Water with low nitrate content (via large & frequent PWC's) will help.  Oh, another question; how much and how often have you been making PWC's on this tank, and how long have you had this Clown Loach in the tank?  I'm guessing its a fairly new fish as you hadn't mentioned it recently.
         
        Ray    

         


         


         

        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56916 From: sevenspringss Date: 12/10/2015
        Subject: Re: Possible Gill Burns?
        Hi John,
         
        No, you're not out of line at all.  Anything that can add to the accuracy of any point posted on here is to be welcomed.  I'm assuming that Noura uses the Metric system and have always converted any measurement I posted for her from U.S. to Metric whenever I sent her messages containing measurements.  I could be wrong though.  While I specifically and intentionally wrote U.S. gallons and gave the equivalent in Liters, I guess I could have mentioned that a U.S. gallon is equal to 0.83268 British gallons -- if that term is used anymore (or, Imperial gallons). 
         
        I never thought about Tablespoons and possibly teaspoons being different; it just never occurred to me.  I just assumed they were all the same on each side of the "Pond," like being universal measurements.  If they're different, thanks for pointing that out.  Naturally, I use U.S. Tablespoons and U.S. teaspoons, if it makes a difference.  One thing I've learned to do is to capitalize "Tablespoon" and use lower-case for "teaspoon," spelling them both out, to further differentiate one from another.  I used to abbreviate them, as Tbs and tsp but if any one of them isn't capitalize or lower-cased (as the case may be), this could easily lead to confusion and an incorrect measure.
         
        Ray   
         
         
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56917 From: love_animals07 Date: 12/10/2015
        Subject: Anyone here have experinece with raising killifish eggs???
        I am getting my first set of killifish eggs in a few weeks!!! (Hopefully). I've done some research and watched youtube videos. These are annual killis, but I can't quite remember what they are called. This scientific name stuff is really had for me.

        Anyway, I was planning on doing brine shrimp as food but I've heard that BBS are too big? Anyone know? I don't have microworms but I guess I could order them.

        I don't have any java moss, and I don't know where I'd get any. Would dropping a few of my jungle vals in and just letting them float at the top work well enough? I really don't have any bushy small leafy plants...

        I plan on doing daily 25% water changes w/ an airstone on the end of air line tubing just like I would for baby bettas. Feeding 3x a day.

        Heater or no heater?

        Anyone know anything about killis in general? I know they are basically a live or frozen food fish...

        If no one knows much, that's okay too. I realize these are pretty rare fish to try to raise. I never actually learned much about them until recently...

        And I'll drop a poll in just because I've never done so before :)


        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56918 From: sevenspringss Date: 12/10/2015
        Subject: Re: Anyone here have experinece with raising killifish eggs???
        First of all, you'd better find out the scientific name for this Killifish species to be able to research it -- OR, at least -- find out from the breeder just how long you should store them before placing them in water to hatch (unless, he tells you they're ready to hatch now).  You'll need to find this out before immersing them. 
         
        Annual Killifish eggs are "harvested" and stored in damp peat moss for the period it takes for them to incubate before placing them back into water.  This is duplicating the similar rainy and dry seasons in nature, where the water dries up in their ponds and the eggs are buried in mud where they incubate.  When the rains come again, their pool will fill back up and they will hatch out.  Then too, African annual Killifish have a very different incubation period than those of South America.
         
        All annual Killifish genera have different incubation periods -- up to 3 or 4 months in some cases.  If you add the eggs to water too soon before their full incubation period, the chances are good that any fry hatching out will become belly-sliders and will be unable to swim in open water.  Keep in mind, that not all eggs will hatch when you place them in water.  This is nature's purpose in keeping the species going in case the first rains don't provide enough long-term water supply in their ponds and it dries out too soon before the fish mature.  The next rains will see the previously unhatched Killie eggs hatch out, grow to maturity, breed and perpetuate the species.  So, don't through out any Killie eggs that don't hatch the first time.  Place them back into the damp peat moss for further incubation and try them again in water in another two or three weeks or a month or so. 
         
        I've always used newly hatched brine shrimp to feed my Killifish fry, but then too, I breed many more species of non-annual Killifish than I do annual Killifish.  Still, I don't believe you'd have a problem with using brine shrimp to start them off on.  If you want a smaller baby brine shrimp, just use the San Francisco Bay brand on shrimp eggs -- and don't buy them by the small vial or small can as these containers don't sell very fast in the local fish stores.  This means that the more time these small containers sit on there stores' shelves and the older the shrimp eggs are, the smaller will be the hatched yield of baby brine shrimp (you won't get than many baby brine shrimp out of old, unrefrigerated shrimp eggs).  Fish breeders buy their brine shrimp eggs by the 15 or 16 ounce can -- the size of a coffee can.  While it costs more to start with, it's the most economical size, ounce for ounce.  What's not used should be put in the freezer or at least refrigerated to extend the viability and quality of the eggs for hatching into the future.  Also, once partially grown, most Killifish will readily take crushed flake food. 
         
        You don't need Java Moss to raise Killifish fry, although they will pick on the tiny animaculae (rotifers, etc.) that cling to the plants, in between feedings.  If you want to order something, then order Java Moss or Najas ("Guppy Grass").  Be sure to look through it when you get it, to see if there are any critters in it that could eat the fry.  Jungle Val is better than nothing, but it can't be expected to do the same thing, nor give the fry the cover and nourishment that these bushy plants will. 
         
        You don't need to do 25% daily water changes -- unless you grossly overfeed.  First of all, it's not easy doing water changes on a tank of 1/16" long fry, but if you've bred Bettas I don't need to tell you this.  Most breeders start their fry off in a large enough tank that doesn't require water changes for the first week or two.  It's a lot easier (and safer) this way.  You won't be syphoning out fry that you can't see.  Too, as many annual Killies are scrappers as they grow, this is all the more reason you want to give them a larger tank.
         
        Not knowing what your room temperature is, it's hard to tell if you need a heater, but most Killifish do not like a lot of heat.  They're perfectly fine at 72 o -- 74 o with some (those in the mountain foot-hills) even being uncomfortable at 68 o.  Those Killies that are found in the lowlands, such as where most annuals reside, do tend to prefer it nearer 74 o -- 75 o rather than 70 o though.  Too warm however, and you'll get mostly males.  Too cool and you'll get mostly females.  Depending on the temperature (and also the pH), you might not get any of one sex and all of the other sex.  Again, if you know the species name, you can find out their temperature preference.   
         
        Best of luck with them.
         
        Ray   
         
             
         
         
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56919 From: Charles Harrison Date: 12/10/2015
        Subject: Re: Anyone here have experinece with raising killifish eggs???
        Newly hatched Brine Shrimp is just fine for most all the newly
        hatched Killifish fry.

        You need a few Rams Horn snails, a flat bottom dish about a pint
        sized and some dechlorinated water.

        If you are getting some peat with eggs in it, you need to find the
        eggs and know they are ready to hatch. Find an egg and see the eyes
        in the egg and they are ready. No eggs or just clear eggs and nno
        development and you will have to wait.

        Most peat spawners take about 3 months. Some take 3 weeks and some
        take 6 months.

        I would be very glad to send you Microworms and and thing else you
        think you nee.
        I need to know what you have of your new Killifish.

        Charles H




        >I am getting my first set of killifish eggs in a few weeks!!!
        >(Hopefully). I've done some research and watched youtube videos.
        >These are annual killis, but I can't quite remember what they are
        >called. This scientific name stuff is really had for me.
        >
        >Anyway, I was planning on doing brine shrimp as food but I've heard
        >that BBS are too big? Anyone know? I don't have microworms but I
        >guess I could order them.
        >
        >I don't have any java moss, and I don't know where I'd get any.
        >Would dropping a few of my jungle vals in and just letting them
        >float at the top work well enough? I really don't have any bushy
        >small leafy plants...
        >
        >I plan on doing daily 25% water changes w/ an airstone on the end of
        >air line tubing just like I would for baby bettas. Feeding 3x a day.
        >
        >Heater or no heater?
        >
        >Anyone know anything about killis in general? I know they are
        >basically a live or frozen food fish...
        >
        >If no one knows much, that's okay too. I realize these are pretty
        >rare fish to try to raise. I never actually learned much about them
        >until recently...
        >
        >And I'll drop a poll in just because I've never done so before :)
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56920 From: Amber Larr Date: 12/10/2015
        Subject: Re: Anyone here have experinece with raising killifish eggs???
        Okay, let me see...

        I'm fairly sure that among those I ordered are nothobranchius eggersi and nothobranchius rachovii were the kinds that I ordered. Not the best for a beginner with these fish, I know... 

        I can't be sure if they will be ready to hatch as soon as I get them, but I was told that they should be ready right around the time I get them. 

        My tanks at room temperature normally stay right around 72 degrees. At least my 30 gallon fancy goldfish tank does.

        Charles: 
        Why would I need ramshorn snails exactly?

        And, I guess I'll try my luck with brine shrimp since you both said it would work. I do have San Francisco Bay brand eggs. I have a pretty decent hatch rate with them (I think I keep my salt for their hatching around 1.024, I use marine reef salt...) And I rinse them first in a jar of tank water then I gather them back up and make sure I have most of the eggs out.

        How much water should I have per baby, any ideas?

        I also have two cultures both with daphnia and infusoria going. Are either of these worth anything? They are left over from my baby bettas. 

        Thanks, you two!





        On Thursday, December 10, 2015 10:34 PM, "Charles Harrison charles@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


        Newly hatched Brine Shrimp is just fine for most all the newly
        hatched Killifish fry.

        You need a few Rams Horn snails, a flat bottom dish about a pint
        sized and some dechlorinated water.

        If you are getting some peat with eggs in it, you need to find the
        eggs and know they are ready to hatch. Find an egg and see the eyes
        in the egg and they are ready. No eggs or just clear eggs and nno
        development and you will have to wait.

        Most peat spawners take about 3 months. Some take 3 weeks and some
        take 6 months.

        I would be very glad to send you  Microworms and and thing else you
        think you nee.
        I need to know what you have of your new Killifish.

        Charles H




        >I am getting my first set of killifish eggs in a few weeks!!!
        >(Hopefully). I've done some research and watched youtube videos.
        >These are annual killis, but I can't quite remember what they are
        >called. This scientific name stuff is really had for me.
        >
        >Anyway, I was planning on doing brine shrimp as food but I've heard
        >that BBS are too big? Anyone know? I don't have microworms but I
        >guess I could order them.
        >
        >I don't have any java moss, and I don't know where I'd get any.
        >Would dropping a few of my jungle vals in and just letting them
        >float at the top work well enough? I really don't have any bushy
        >small leafy plants...
        >
        >I plan on doing daily 25% water changes w/ an airstone on the end of
        >air line tubing just like I would for baby bettas. Feeding 3x a day.
        >
        >Heater or no heater?
        >
        >Anyone know anything about killis in general? I know they are
        >basically a live or frozen food fish...
        >
        >If no one knows much, that's okay too. I realize these are pretty
        >rare fish to try to raise. I never actually learned much about them
        >until recently...
        >
        >And I'll drop a poll in just because I've never done so before :)


        ------------------------------------
        Posted by: Charles Harrison <charles@...>
        ------------------------------------

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        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56921 From: sevenspringss Date: 12/11/2015
        Subject: Re: Anyone here have experinece with raising killifish eggs???
        Hi again, love_animals 07 (name??),
         
        Thanks for filling us in on the Killie species you're getting.  This helps a lot in knowing what to tell you in rearing these fry once they hatch.  Ideally, the water temperature should be kept between 72 o and 76 o for these fry.  Spawning adults are best kept between 75 o and 80 o - 81 o, but this shouldn't pertain to you.  Nothobranchius guentheri eggs have an approximate 13 to 14 week incubation period, whereas N. eggersii eggs take approximately 12 weeks or so to incubate, depending upon the temperature they're stored at.  It can be assumed that the breeder will send you these eggs already packed in the proper dampness of sphagnum peat moss (in plastic bags), about the same moisture content of pipe tobacco.  Charles has already informed you that when the fry are ready to hatch, you'll be able to see an eye of the developed fry, especially under a magnifying glass.  At this stage, the fry are described as being "eyed-up."  It will be encircled by a gold ring.    
         
        As it appears from what you're saying, that these two species are AMONG those you ordered, it looks as though you ordered others.  As these others may need other requirements, or have markedly different incubation periods, you should find out what else is being sent to you. 
         
        As your room temperature maintains water at 72 o, I'd suggest using a heater that will bring the temperature up to 74 o to avoid skewing of the sex ratio (getting many more of one sex than the other).  As you could expect up to around 100 fry (not saying you will), it would probably be best to start them out in a 5 gallon tank rather than a 2 1/2 gallon tank.  Each species to its own tank of course.  It's important not to keep the water level too high in the beginning (don't fill the tank).  Small partial water changes should be done every 2 to 3 days, with about a total of between 10% and 15% of the water being changed weekly.  As the fish grow, you can slowly increase the height of the water column, eventually even transferring them to a 10 gallon or even a 20 gallon Long.    
         
        Now, since you mentioned what species of eggs/fry you'll be working with, these two species, being Nothos,  just happen to have slightly smaller mouths than other annuals; the fry are very slightly smaller.  They should easily be able to take newly hatched San Francisco Bay brine shrimp within a few days, but I'd suggest you might want to start them off on either Walter Worms (very similar to microworms, but a bit smaller) and/or Vinegar  Eels and too, even infusoria (more on this below).  Perhaps Charles may be able to supply you with either of these first two cultures -- unless he feels that newly hatched brine shrimp are good to start off with, with these species.  As for rinsing the baby brine shrimp off before feeding them to the fry, to avoid adding salt to the rearing tank (as others may suggest), any such salt additions would be negligible.  Besides which -- while on this topic, as Notho fry are very susceptible to Velvet disease, it's best to maintain a low level of salinity of the tank water, which you'll need to monitor as you do partial water changes.  Add back only enough salt to equal what you remove during PWC's.       
         
        Ramshorn snails are indispensable for cleaning up any uneaten food, and they're unable to eat the fry.  I can only suspect this is why Charles recommended them, although he may want to add more on this subject.  They're also excellent at creating infusoria populations; these tiny animaculae feed on the snails' droppings, breaking them down even further.  By this time though, the fry certainly will be well past needing infusoria to feed on.    
         
        As you have infusoria going right now however, it would seem prudent to feed some of this to the fry after they first hatch, and for the next couple of days afterwards.  As you may already be aware, there are more than one species of Daphnia used in the hobby.  Still, even the smaller species are too large to feed to fry until they are large enough to handle it -- and even then, I'd suggest only sifted Daphnia to be assured that the Daphnia are uniformly small, for the fry to be able to handle them without any difficulty.  They grow exceedingly fast (they need to).   
         
        I'll add, that you should follow Charles' recommendations.  He knows much more than I do about annual Killifish.
         
        Ray
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56922 From: Amber Larr Date: 12/11/2015
        Subject: Re: Anyone here have experinece with raising killifish eggs???
        Wow, thank you for all that information, Ray. Sorry, I have three species coming and when I looked it up I expected three but I only found two. A quick look up of the fish revealed that I have both the blue color of eggersi and the red color of eggersi. I thought they looked really similar, but to me a lot of things look similar.

        Okay, let me see... One five gallon per species of killi for now and a 10-20 gallon per species of killi later would be okay? And because they are smaller it would be best to feed them Walter worms or vinegar ells first and then the bbs. Infusoria is another option, and daphnia when they are larger. I also have wingless fruit fly cultures going. Would adjusts and/or larger fry be willing and able to eat this?

        Total of 10-15% water changes total a week. Add a little salt to prevent velvet. And 74 degrees. So, temperature does matter with the gender... Yeah, I'd definitely prefer a mix of genders. The females have a beauty all to themselves, I think, and the males have character. 

        Hmm... How about a pH and a water hardness? I know my tap's pH sits around 8.2. Is that too high? And my water is fairly hard. I don't have the kit to test that but I know it is.

        And, what about cycling the fry tank? I think I've read that they require still water and that even air stones are too much. So I wouldn't be able to cycle the fry's tank, not right away, at least right? Could I cycle a sponge filter in a separate tank and then move it in with the fry when they are big enough? If so, when would they be big enough? A few weeks? A month? 

        Thank you, Amber




        On Friday, December 11, 2015 3:22 AM, "sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:




        Hi again, love_animals 07 (name??),
         
        Thanks for filling us in on the Killie species you're getting.  This helps a lot in knowing what to tell you in rearing these fry once they hatch.  Ideally, the water temperature should be kept between 72 o and 76 o for these fry.  Spawning adults are best kept between 75 o and 80 o - 81 o, but this shouldn't pertain to you.  Nothobranchius guentheri eggs have an approximate 13 to 14 week incubation period, whereas N. eggersii eggs take approximately 12 weeks or so to incubate, depending upon the temperature they're stored at.  It can be assumed that the breeder will send you these eggs already packed in the proper dampness of sphagnum peat moss (in plastic bags), about the same moisture content of pipe tobacco.  Charles has already informed you that when the fry are ready to hatch, you'll be able to see an eye of the developed fry, especially under a magnifying glass.  At this stage, the fry are described as being "eyed-up."  It will be encircled by a gold ring.    
         
        As it appears from what you're saying, that these two species are AMONG those you ordered, it looks as though you ordered others.  As these others may need other requirements, or have markedly different incubation periods, you should find out what else is being sent to you. 
         
        As your room temperature maintains water at 72 o, I'd suggest using a heater that will bring the temperature up to 74 o to avoid skewing of the sex ratio (getting many more of one sex than the other).  As you could expect up to around 100 fry (not saying you will), it would probably be best to start them out in a 5 gallon tank rather than a 2 1/2 gallon tank.  Each species to its own tank of course.  It's important not to keep the water level too high in the beginning (don't fill the tank).  Small partial water changes should be done every 2 to 3 days, with about a total of between 10% and 15% of the water being changed weekly.  As the fish grow, you can slowly increase the height of the water column, eventually even transferring them to a 10 gallon or even a 20 gallon Long.    
         
        Now, since you mentioned what species of eggs/fry you'll be working with, these two species, being Nothos,  just happen to have slightly smaller mouths than other annuals; the fry are very slightly smaller.  They should easily be able to take newly hatched San Francisco Bay brine shrimp within a few days, but I'd suggest you might want to start them off on either Walter Worms (very similar to microworms, but a bit smaller) and/or Vinegar  Eels and too, even infusoria (more on this below).  Perhaps Charles may be able to supply you with either of these first two cultures -- unless he feels that newly hatched brine shrimp are good to start off with, with these species.  As for rinsing the baby brine shrimp off before feeding them to the fry, to avoid adding salt to the rearing tank (as others may suggest), any such salt additions would be negligible.  Besides which -- while on this topic, as Notho fry are very susceptible to Velvet disease, it's best to maintain a low level of salinity of the tank water, which you'll need to monitor as you do partial water changes.  Add back only enough salt to equal what you remove during PWC's.       
         
        Ramshorn snails are indispensable for cleaning up any uneaten food, and they're unable to eat the fry.  I can only suspect this is why Charles recommended them, although he may want to add more on this subject.  They're also excellent at creating infusoria populations; these tiny animaculae feed on the snails' droppings, breaking them down even further.  By this time though, the fry certainly will be well past needing infusoria to feed on.    
         
        As you have infusoria going right now however, it would seem prudent to feed some of this to the fry after they first hatch, and for the next couple of days afterwards.  As you may already be aware, there are more than one species of Daphnia used in the hobby.  Still, even the smaller species are too large to feed to fry until they are large enough to handle it -- and even then, I'd suggest only sifted Daphnia to be assured that the Daphnia are uniformly small, for the fry to be able to handle them without any difficulty.  They grow exceedingly fast (they need to).   
         
        I'll add, that you should follow Charles' recommendations.  He knows much more than I do about annual Killifish.
         
        Ray




        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56923 From: sevenspringss Date: 12/11/2015
        Subject: Re: Anyone here have experinece with raising killifish eggs???
        Amber,
         
        I'll be brief here as Charles may have much better recommendations that have proven more successful to him.  So if he'd be so kind as to cover these points of yours in full and with additions of his own preference, you may be better off.
         
        Basically though, and to address your concerns in your present post, a 5 gallon tank would be minimal.  As you're not going to fill the tank, and as area and water volume are still a concern, a 10 gallon tank may be used with filling it to a 3" (no more than 4") water level, if you see a large number of eggs being present.  You can't always see all of the eggs hidden in the peat moss so it may be difficult to discern whether or not you have an especially large number of eggs.  For this reason, the choice of tanks may have some leeway, but don't go too large either.  I have 8 gallon tanks I use for this purpose, but these are the old stainless steel frame tanks I bought back in 1953.  They're not made in this size in all-glass that I know of.
         
        Wingless fruit flies are an excellent food for juveniles and adults but are too large for fry (even "larger" fry).  These Nothos will tolerate a wide range in Hardness, from pure rain water to your fairly hard water, but prefer the water in the acidic range.  I don't like using pure rain water (or pure R/O water) with any fish though as, in my opinion, it has the tendency to leach out the minerals in a fishes' body including the calcium in its bones.  Not saying this will necessarily happen as fish that have evolved in near-TDS free conditions (like Discus), do extremely well in very low hardness, abeit not in pure R/O water.  I breed (and rear) these fish in 3 dGH (having no more than 90 microseimens of conductivity).  But as I said Nothos will do fine raised in harder water.   
         
        On the salt, I use about a Tablespoon per 5 gallons.  Some breeders use up to 1 teaspoon per gallon which I feel is slightly excessive and unnecessary.  That's correct, you won't be able to cycle the fry's tanks.  With only 3" of water, there's no way I know of to even attempt this, and sponge filters still have a much taller riser tube.  As you know, filtration's purpose is to remove solid particulates, reduce ammonia and nitrite.  As long as you don't overfeed, employ Ramshorn Snail and keep a regular regimen of water change procedures, you'll be doing the same things.  Look at it this way; unless you overfeed to create more ammonia, the bioload of these fry will be absolutely minimal.  You couldn't measure the minute amount of ammonia they're be creating.  You won't need filtration at the start. 
         
        As your Killies grow and as you increase their water level, you can supply them with moderate filtration.  I like sponge filter filtration for fry once they reach a certain age (2 - 3 weeks).  BTW, you can cut down the sponge filter's riser tube to accommodate a 6" deep water column (half as high as a ten or twenty gallon Long tank), once the fry are old enough.  I'll add, not to use too harsh of lighting; they do better in only moderately strong lighting but still adequate enough for them to easily see their food.  If you're using floating Val, this will at least help give them a sense of security.  You may even want to try finding small floating Water Sprite for this purpose if you can't find Java Moss.   
         
        Ray.    
         
         
         
               
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56924 From: Amber Larr Date: 12/11/2015
        Subject: Re: Anyone here have experinece with raising killifish eggs???
        Okay, then. That sounds good. I have water sprite, but it's not growing as fast as it should. My jungle vals have made enough plants to cover the whole back panel of my 55 gallon and then some but my water sprite hasn't even grow 4 inches... I thought they were fast growing. Anyway, back on topic, So I 5 gallons if I get a few eggs, 10 gallons if I get a lot. Heated to 74. Covered (although I don't think they'd jump that far but I wouldn't want to risk it). Walter worms or vinegar eels ideal for the fry, infusoria might work, bbs for when they get a little larger. Fruitflies for when they are nearly full grown or adults. What about blood worms for adults?

        And, might as well ask this as well: How sensitive are the fry and the adults to nitrate? I'd think pretty sensitive, more-so than your average guppy, right?

        I'm trying to learn all I can. I'm doing other research as well on the killis.



        On Friday, December 11, 2015 9:55 AM, "sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:




        Amber,
         
        I'll be brief here as Charles may have much better recommendations that have proven more successful to him.  So if he'd be so kind as to cover these points of yours in full and with additions of his own preference, you may be better off.
         
        Basically though, and to address your concerns in your present post, a 5 gallon tank would be minimal.  As you're not going to fill the tank, and as area and water volume are still a concern, a 10 gallon tank may be used with filling it to a 3" (no more than 4") water level, if you see a large number of eggs being present.  You can't always see all of the eggs hidden in the peat moss so it may be difficult to discern whether or not you have an especially large number of eggs.  For this reason, the choice of tanks may have some leeway, but don't go too large either.  I have 8 gallon tanks I use for this purpose, but these are the old stainless steel frame tanks I bought back in 1953.  They're not made in this size in all-glass that I know of.
         
        Wingless fruit flies are an excellent food for juveniles and adults but are too large for fry (even "larger" fry).  These Nothos will tolerate a wide range in Hardness, from pure rain water to your fairly hard water, but prefer the water in the acidic range.  I don't like using pure rain water (or pure R/O water) with any fish though as, in my opinion, it has the tendency to leach out the minerals in a fishes' body including the calcium in its bones.  Not saying this will necessarily happen as fish that have evolved in near-TDS free conditions (like Discus), do extremely well in very low hardness, abeit not in pure R/O water.  I breed (and rear) these fish in 3 dGH (having no more than 90 microseimens of conductivity).  But as I said Nothos will do fine raised in harder water.   
         
        On the salt, I use about a Tablespoon per 5 gallons.  Some breeders use up to 1 teaspoon per gallon which I feel is slightly excessive and unnecessary.  That's correct, you won't be able to cycle the fry's tanks.  With only 3" of water, there's no way I know of to even attempt this, and sponge filters still have a much taller riser tube.  As you know, filtration's purpose is to remove solid particulates, reduce ammonia and nitrite.  As long as you don't overfeed, employ Ramshorn Snail and keep a regular regimen of water change procedures, you'll be doing the same things.  Look at it this way; unless you overfeed to create more ammonia, the bioload of these fry will be absolutely minimal.  You couldn't measure the minute amount of ammonia they're be creating.  You won't need filtration at the start. 
         
        As your Killies grow and as you increase their water level, you can supply them with moderate filtration.  I like sponge filter filtration for fry once they reach a certain age (2 - 3 weeks).  BTW, you can cut down the sponge filter's riser tube to accommodate a 6" deep water column (half as high as a ten or twenty gallon Long tank), once the fry are old enough.  I'll add, not to use too harsh of lighting; they do better in only moderately strong lighting but still adequate enough for them to easily see their food.  If you're using floating Val, this will at least help give them a sense of security.  You may even want to try finding small floating Water Sprite for this purpose if you can't find Java Moss.   
         
        Ray.    
         
         
         
               




        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56925 From: Jackie Date: 12/11/2015
        Subject: Grass
        Hello Everyone,

           Early this year I upgraded to a 95 gal. Unfortunately placed it to close to a window and have "grass" growing in my tank. Is there any easy way to get rid of it?

        Thanks in advance for your advice.

        Hope everyone has a wonderful holiday.

        Jackie
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56926 From: Donna Ransome Date: 12/11/2015
        Subject: Re: Grass
        I would (a) block the light from the window else it will continue to happen. And (b) physically remove the algae.



        From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
        Sent: Friday, December 11, 2015 11:03 AM
        To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [AquaticLife] Grass



        hysicall

        Hello Everyone,



        Early this year I upgraded to a 95 gal. Unfortunately placed it to close to a window and have "grass" growing in my tank. Is there any easy way to get rid of it?



        Thanks in advance for your advice.



        Hope everyone has a wonderful holiday.



        Jackie





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56927 From: sevenspringss Date: 12/11/2015
        Subject: Re: Anyone here have experinece with raising killifish eggs???
        Amber,
         
        Jungle Val does well in hard alkaline water, whereas Water Sprite does better in soft acid water.  This is not to say that Water Sprite still won't do well in moderately hard water in a pH of 7.4 -- 7.5, as it will.  It just won't do as well as in the first conditions I stated for it.  Your pH 8.2 though is much too high for Water Sprite to really thrive.  Jungle Val will dio excellent at pH 8.2 and moderately hard water, as you confirmed here. 
         
        Bloodworms and chopped (rinsed & drained) Blackworms are excellent for Killifish.  
         
        I haven't found Nothos to be any more sensitive to nitrate as most other tropical fishes.  Then too, with proper maintenance (PWC's being an important part of this), I don't see nitrate levels much over 20 PPM.  This is fine for Nothobranchius.  Just don't allow your nitrate to climb much over 40 ppm; the lower the better.  Easily achieved with adequate weekly PWC's in moderately stocked tanks, or in the case of Notho fry, several smaller PWC's per week. 
         
        Covers for the tanks with any juvie or adult Killifish is always a good idea.  The group as a whole is notorious for jumping, even if some aren't that prone to jumping.  Almost any fish can jump at some time or other.  Even some of those you'd think least likely.  It only takes once when you're not around to rescue it, for you to lose it.  
         
        Ray
         
         
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56928 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 12/11/2015
        Subject: Re: Grass

        

        Hi Jackie,

        I agree with Donna as an immediate solution although ideally you would probably need to move your tank away from the window at some point as blocking the light would likely be an inconvenience in the long term. That said a 95 gallon tank is going to take some serious planning to move as you would have to practically drain it before attempting any move in safety. I'm guessing this is hair algae causing the problem but could you post a photo or two of the 'grass' just to confirm please? Was there any particular reason for siting your tank in that spot-structural stability perhaps if you are in an upstairs location?

          John<o)))<


        On 11 December 2015 at 16:20 "Donna Ransome djransome@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

         

        I would (a) block the light from the window else it will continue to happen. And (b) physically remove the algae.

        From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
        Sent: Friday, December 11, 2015 11:03 AM
        To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [AquaticLife] Grass

        hysicall

        Hello Everyone,

        Early this year I upgraded to a 95 gal. Unfortunately placed it to close to a window and have "grass" growing in my tank. Is there any easy way to get rid of it?

        Thanks in advance for your advice.

        Hope everyone has a wonderful holiday.

        Jackie

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


         


         

        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56929 From: Charles Harrison Date: 12/11/2015
        Subject: Re: Anyone here have experinece with raising killifish eggs???
        Re: [AquaticLife] Anyone here have experinece with raising
        Sorry for the interruption but life and work gets in the way.

        Water sprite and most Killies don't get along. Java Moss and Nylon Mops meet the challenge.

        They keep the adults, juveniles and fry apart long enough for the new aquarists to separate them all and keep the generations growing.

        BBS can be a life long food for most Killifish. It is nice to have worms for the adults for good egg production but your first problem is getting eggs to hatch and feeding the fry. That is where BBS and the Rams Horn snails come into the picture. I and many Killifish keepers keep Flubendazole around to keep the Velvet away. Salt works well until the first stress of separation happens. Velvet is another subject and lets hope the eggs/dirt is free of the Velvet Protozoa.

        Microworms and BBS are essential for the first foods. The snails keep it all tidy with 50% water changes every 2-3 days. Gradually grow the volume to accommodate the fry. A 5 gal in 3 to 5 weeks will hold 20 fry if all is healthy and the snails are still around. Keep the water changes at 50% at least once a week. After that you are on your own. As much live food and some spawning strata like planting peat will bring more eggs.

        That is a very Quick Overlook.

        Low pH and Nitrites are real killers. Keep the water fresh!!! High pH and Ammonia is seldom a problem.

        I'll have some more time this weekend to expand - but -VELVET is your WORST Concern with Nothos. The young fry are immune to their pathologic attack. One moment of stress and they will kill the fish - ALL OF THEM!

        Charles H


        Okay, then. That sounds good. I have water sprite, but it's not growing as fast as it should. My jungle vals have made enough plants to cover the whole back panel of my 55 gallon and then some but my water sprite hasn't even grow 4 inches... I thought they were fast growing. Anyway, back on topic, So I 5 gallons if I get a few eggs, 10 gallons if I get a lot. Heated to 74. Covered (although I don't think they'd jump that far but I wouldn't want to risk it). Walter worms or vinegar eels ideal for the fry, infusoria might work, bbs for when they get a little larger. Fruitflies for when they are nearly full grown or adults. What about blood worms for adults?

        And, might as well ask this as well: How sensitive are the fry and the adults to nitrate? I'd think pretty sensitive, more-so than your average guppy, right?

        I'm trying to learn all I can. I'm doing other research as well on the killis.



        On Friday, December 11, 2015 9:55 AM, "sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
        Amber,
         
        I'll be brief here as Charles may have much better recommendations that have proven more successful to him.  So if he'd be so kind as to cover these points of yours in full and with additions of his own preference, you may be better off.
         
        Basically though, and to address your concerns in your present post, a 5 gallon tank would be minimal.  As you're not going to fill the tank, and as area and water volume are still a concern, a 10 gallon tank may be used with filling it to a 3" (no more than 4") water level, if you see a large number of eggs being present.  You can't always see all of the eggs hidden in the peat moss so it may be difficult to discern whether or not you have an especially large number of eggs.  For this reason, the choice of tanks may have some leeway, but don't go too large either.  I have 8 gallon tanks I use for this purpose, but these are the old stainless steel frame tanks I bought back in 1953.  They're not made in this size in all-glass that I know of.
         
        Wingless fruit flies are an excellent food for juveniles and adults but are too large for fry (even "larger" fry).  These Nothos will tolerate a wide range in Hardness, from pure rain water to your fairly hard water, but prefer the water in the acidic range.  I don't like using pure rain water (or pure R/O water) with any fish though as, in my opinion, it has the tendency to leach out the minerals in a fishes' body including the calcium in its bones.  Not saying this will necessarily happen as fish that have evolved in near-TDS free conditions (like Discus), do extremely well in very low hardness, abeit not in pure R/O water.  I breed (and rear) these fish in 3 dGH (having no more than 90 microseimens of conductivity).  But as I said Nothos will do fine raised in harder water.   
         
        On the salt, I use about a Tablespoon per 5 gallons.  Some breeders use up to 1 teaspoon per gallon which I feel is slightly excessive and unnecessary.  That's correct, you won't be able to cycle the fry's tanks.  With only 3" of water, there's no way I know of to even attempt this, and sponge filters still have a much taller riser tube.  As you know, filtration's purpose is to remove solid particulates, reduce ammonia and nitrite.  As long as you don't overfeed, employ Ramshorn Snail and keep a regular regimen of water change procedures, you'll be doing the same things.  Look at it this way; unless you overfeed to create more ammonia, the bioload of these fry will be absolutely minimal.  You couldn't measure the minute amount of ammonia they're be creating.  You won't need filtration at the start. 
         
        As your Killies grow and as you increase their water level, you can supply them with moderate filtration.  I like sponge filter filtration for fry once they reach a certain age (2 - 3 weeks).  BTW, you can cut down the sponge filter's riser tube to accommodate a 6" deep water column (half as high as a ten or twenty gallon Long tank), once the fry are old enough.  I'll add, not to use too harsh of lighting; they do better in only moderately strong lighting but still adequate enough for them to easily see their food.  If you're using floating Val, this will at least help give them a sense of security.  You may even want to try finding small floating Water Sprite for this purpose if you can't find Java Moss.   
         
        Ray.    
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56930 From: Jim Forshey (Aquatic Book Shop) Date: 12/11/2015
        Subject: Re: Anyone here have experinece with raising killifish eggs???
        I was just wondering why is this? (I have not had this experience or heard
        this before)



        “Water sprite and most Killies don't get along”



        Thanks



        Jim Forshey

        The Aquatic Book Shop

        California

        (530) 622-7547

        <http://www.seahorses.com/> www.Seahorses.com



        LogoL-tn



        ´¯'·.¸¸..><((((º>.·´¯'·.¸¸.·´¯'·.¸><((((º>¸.·´¯'·.¸. ,.

        Plan for tomorrow, live for today, for no one has promised you tomorrow
        .·´¯'·..><((((º>¸.·´¯'·.¸.·´¯'·...¸><((((º>¸.·´¯'·.¸. ,



        From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
        Sent: Friday, December 11, 2015 9:25 PM
        To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Anyone here have experinece with raising
        killifish eggs???








        Sorry for the interruption but life and work gets in the way.



        Water sprite and most Killies don't get along. Java Moss and Nylon Mops meet
        the challenge.



        They keep the adults, juveniles and fry apart long enough for the new
        aquarists to separate them all and keep the generations growing.



        BBS can be a life long food for most Killifish. It is nice to have worms for
        the adults for good egg production but your first problem is getting eggs to
        hatch and feeding the fry. That is where BBS and the Rams Horn snails come
        into the picture. I and many Killifish keepers keep Flubendazole around to
        keep the Velvet away. Salt works well until the first stress of separation
        happens. Velvet is another subject and lets hope the eggs/dirt is free of
        the Velvet Protozoa.



        Microworms and BBS are essential for the first foods. The snails keep it all
        tidy with 50% water changes every 2-3 days. Gradually grow the volume to
        accommodate the fry. A 5 gal in 3 to 5 weeks will hold 20 fry if all is
        healthy and the snails are still around. Keep the water changes at 50% at
        least once a week. After that you are on your own. As much live food and
        some spawning strata like planting peat will bring more eggs.



        That is a very Quick Overlook.



        Low pH and Nitrites are real killers. Keep the water fresh!!! High pH and
        Ammonia is seldom a problem.



        I'll have some more time this weekend to expand - but -VELVET is your WORST
        Concern with Nothos. The young fry are immune to their pathologic attack.
        One moment of stress and they will kill the fish - ALL OF THEM!



        Charles H





        Okay, then. That sounds good. I have water sprite, but it's not growing as
        fast as it should. My jungle vals have made enough plants to cover the whole
        back panel of my 55 gallon and then some but my water sprite hasn't even
        grow 4 inches... I thought they were fast growing. Anyway, back on topic, So
        I 5 gallons if I get a few eggs, 10 gallons if I get a lot. Heated to 74.
        Covered (although I don't think they'd jump that far but I wouldn't want to
        risk it). Walter worms or vinegar eels ideal for the fry, infusoria might
        work, bbs for when they get a little larger. Fruitflies for when they are
        nearly full grown or adults. What about blood worms for adults?



        And, might as well ask this as well: How sensitive are the fry and the
        adults to nitrate? I'd think pretty sensitive, more-so than your average
        guppy, right?



        I'm trying to learn all I can. I'm doing other research as well on the
        killis.





        On Friday, December 11, 2015 9:55 AM, "sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]
        <mailto:sevenspringss1@...%20[AquaticLife]> "
        <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

        Amber,



        I'll be brief here as Charles may have much better recommendations that have
        proven more successful to him. So if he'd be so kind as to cover these
        points of yours in full and with additions of his own preference, you may be
        better off.



        Basically though, and to address your concerns in your present post, a 5
        gallon tank would be minimal. As you're not going to fill the tank, and as
        area and water volume are still a concern, a 10 gallon tank may be used with
        filling it to a 3" (no more than 4") water level, if you see a large number
        of eggs being present. You can't always see all of the eggs hidden in the
        peat moss so it may be difficult to discern whether or not you have an
        especially large number of eggs. For this reason, the choice of tanks may
        have some leeway, but don't go too large either. I have 8 gallon tanks I
        use for this purpose, but these are the old stainless steel frame tanks I
        bought back in 1953. They're not made in this size in all-glass that I know
        of.



        Wingless fruit flies are an excellent food for juveniles and adults but are
        too large for fry (even "larger" fry). These Nothos will tolerate a wide
        range in Hardness, from pure rain water to your fairly hard water, but
        prefer the water in the acidic range. I don't like using pure rain water
        (or pure R/O water) with any fish though as, in my opinion, it has the
        tendency to leach out the minerals in a fishes' body including the calcium
        in its bones. Not saying this will necessarily happen as fish that have
        evolved in near-TDS free conditions (like Discus), do extremely well in very
        low hardness, abeit not in pure R/O water. I breed (and rear) these fish in
        3 dGH (having no more than 90 microseimens of conductivity). But as I said
        Nothos will do fine raised in harder water.



        On the salt, I use about a Tablespoon per 5 gallons. Some breeders use up
        to 1 teaspoon per gallon which I feel is slightly excessive and unnecessary.
        That's correct, you won't be able to cycle the fry's tanks. With only 3" of
        water, there's no way I know of to even attempt this, and sponge filters
        still have a much taller riser tube. As you know, filtration's purpose is
        to remove solid particulates, reduce ammonia and nitrite. As long as you
        don't overfeed, employ Ramshorn Snail and keep a regular regimen of water
        change procedures, you'll be doing the same things. Look at it this way;
        unless you overfeed to create more ammonia, the bioload of these fry will be
        absolutely minimal. You couldn't measure the minute amount of ammonia
        they're be creating. You won't need filtration at the start.



        As your Killies grow and as you increase their water level, you can supply
        them with moderate filtration. I like sponge filter filtration for fry once
        they reach a certain age (2 - 3 weeks). BTW, you can cut down the sponge
        filter's riser tube to accommodate a 6" deep water column (half as high as a
        ten or twenty gallon Long tank), once the fry are old enough. I'll add, not
        to use too harsh of lighting; they do better in only moderately strong
        lighting but still adequate enough for them to easily see their food. If
        you're using floating Val, this will at least help give them a sense of
        security. You may even want to try finding small floating Water Sprite for
        this purpose if you can't find Java Moss.



        Ray.










        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56931 From: sevenspringss Date: 12/12/2015
        Subject: Re: Anyone here have experinece with raising killifish eggs???
        Thank you very, very much Dr. Harrison, for your input.  I'm sure Amber here will make good use of the info.  While you include nylon mops as part of a Notho fry or perhaps even for an adult Notho set up, presumably this for the purpose of providing cover as it's known that annuals are not mop spawners (or are bottom mops used as an egg repository?).  Just as Jim states, I too have never heard that Water Sprite cannot be used in a Killifish fry tank and that the two don't get along -- or perhaps you mean it's not a good choice in an adult mop-spawner tank (for fry to escape the parents' notice) since you include nylon mops as a recommended part of a Killifish set up.  
         
        I fully agree that BBS can be a life-long food for Killifish.  I use it daily for all my adult Killies as part of their diet.  When I want egg production, I just increase their diet's protein with Blackworms but under normal circumstances the adult fish will do quite well on the BBS and other foods.     
         
        I realize that Velvet is a big concern with Nothos; the reason why I brought this to Amber's attention.  Except for one instance back in the 1960's when I used copper penny's for the cure, fortunately I've never had a Velvet issue with these fish since, in all the years that I've been breeding these fishes, but your recommendation of using Flubendazole against this disease is well taken.  I know you've been a great source for obtaining this medication, for decades and I thank you for having it available for the hobbyists.  I've used Flubendazole as a de-worming agent prophylactic for Angelfish and have recommended it to other aquarists for Hydra, Flukes and a number of other issues (Nematodes, Protozoans, etc.); even steering a number of these hobbyists in your direction for purchasing it.  The drug has many uses.   
         
        While its known that the more that the acidity increases, the greater will become the toxicity of any Nitrite present, and ppm to ppm, Nitrite is much more toxic than ammonia.  All the more reason to maintain a regular partial water changing schedule to keep it as minimal as possible.  Many thanks again,
         
        Ray W.   
          
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56932 From: Charles Harrison Date: 12/12/2015
        Subject: Re: Anyone here have experinece with raising killifish eggs???
        Water sprite is mostly an emerged growth plant. It really doesn't
        stay in the water. Given time and the light, it will push the lid of
        its tank open with above the water line growth.

        Sure is has nice roots for eggs and protozoa, etc. to live in but the
        stuff just gets out of hand and out of the tank. Anacharis, Java Moss
        and Java ferns are much better alternatives.

        Charles H
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56933 From: Amber Larr Date: 12/12/2015
        Subject: Re: Anyone here have experinece with raising killifish eggs???
        Okay, that really does explain why I've had so many problems with my water sprite. I've always heard it's a fast grower and I couldn't figure out what I was doing wrong.



        On Saturday, December 12, 2015 1:09 PM, "Charles Harrison charles@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


        Water sprite is mostly an emerged growth plant. It really doesn't
        stay in the water. Given time and the light, it will push the lid of
        its tank open with above the water line growth.

        Sure is has nice roots for eggs and protozoa, etc. to live in but the
        stuff just gets out of hand and out of the tank. Anacharis, Java Moss
        and Java ferns are much better alternatives.

        Charles H


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        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56934 From: Noura T. Date: 12/12/2015
        Subject: Re: Possible Gill Burns?
        Hi,



        I have sent a reply to Ray’s suggestions on Friday morning (Thursday US time), but I don’t see it posted.



        Anyway, the Clown Loach is gone. I guess he was in a very late stage in a short time. Thank you for trying to help. I had added a bit of salt and did more water changes.



        Noura



        From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
        Sent: 11 كانون الأول, 2015 03:57 ص
        To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Possible Gill Burns?





        Hi John,



        No, you're not out of line at all. Anything that can add to the accuracy of any point posted on here is to be welcomed. I'm assuming that Noura uses the Metric system and have always converted any measurement I posted for her from U.S. to Metric whenever I sent her messages containing measurements. I could be wrong though. While I specifically and intentionally wrote U.S. gallons and gave the equivalent in Liters, I guess I could have mentioned that a U.S. gallon is equal to 0.83268 British gallons -- if that term is used anymore (or, Imperial gallons).



        I never thought about Tablespoons and possibly teaspoons being different; it just never occurred to me. I just assumed they were all the same on each side of the "Pond," like being universal measurements. If they're different, thanks for pointing that out. Naturally, I use U.S. Tablespoons and U.S. teaspoons, if it makes a difference. One thing I've learned to do is to capitalize "Tablespoon" and use lower-case for "teaspoon," spelling them both out, to further differentiate one from another. I used to abbreviate them, as Tbs and tsp but if any one of them isn't capitalize or lower-cased (as the case may be), this could easily lead to confusion and an incorrect measure.



        Ray









        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56935 From: sevenspringss Date: 12/12/2015
        Subject: Re: Possible Gill Burns?
        Hi Noura,
         
        It appears that your message of Friday morning was never sent by Yahoo to the moderators for approval.  I hadn't seen it and I'd presume that John hadn't seen it, or it would have been approved and posted.
         
        Sorry to hear about you losing the Clown Loach.  We can't win them all, and puzzling behavior displays that don't show anything distinctive make things very difficult to diagnose.  We're not really sure if this fish actually did have gill burn; the behavior could have been attributed to a number of things, besides gill burn.  I hope your Guppies are doing well. 
         
        Ray
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56936 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 12/12/2015
        Subject: Re: Possible Gill Burns?

        Hi Noura,

         I'm sorry to hear you lost your Clown Loach & no I didn't see anything posted either.

         John<o)))<

        On 12 December 2015 at 23:06 "sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

         

         

        Hi Noura,
         
        It appears that your message of Friday morning was never sent by Yahoo to the moderators for approval.  I hadn't seen it and I'd presume that John hadn't seen it, or it would have been approved and posted.
         
        Sorry to hear about you losing the Clown Loach.  We can't win them all, and puzzling behavior displays that don't show anything distinctive make things very difficult to diagnose.  We're not really sure if this fish actually did have gill burn; the behavior could have been attributed to a number of things, besides gill burn.  I hope your Guppies are doing well. 
         
        Ray

         


         


         

        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56937 From: Amber Larr Date: 12/12/2015
        Subject: Re: Anyone here have experinece with raising killifish eggs???
        Okay, everything sounds great. Does anyone here have any Walter worms or bannana worms, vinegar eels or micro worm, or white worm cultures? I know that the baby killies can't eat all of them, but the adults should be able to right?



        On Saturday, December 12, 2015 1:50 PM, "Amber Larr love_animals07@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:




        Okay, that really does explain why I've had so many problems with my water sprite. I've always heard it's a fast grower and I couldn't figure out what I was doing wrong.



        On Saturday, December 12, 2015 1:09 PM, "Charles Harrison charles@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


        Water sprite is mostly an emerged growth plant. It really doesn't
        stay in the water. Given time and the light, it will push the lid of
        its tank open with above the water line growth.

        Sure is has nice roots for eggs and protozoa, etc. to live in but the
        stuff just gets out of hand and out of the tank. Anacharis, Java Moss
        and Java ferns are much better alternatives.

        Charles H


        ------------------------------------
        Posted by: Charles Harrison <charles@...>
        ------------------------------------

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        PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -&gt; i.e. &quot;new subject (was re: old subject)&quot; &lt;-
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        If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on &quot;Edit My Membership&quot; on the home page. 

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        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56938 From: Charles Harrison Date: 12/12/2015
        Subject: Re: Possible Gill Burns?
        Re: [AquaticLife] Possible Gill Burns?
        Hi Noura and all,
                I keep a 1/2 liter solution of a tablespoon of Baking Soda and a teaspoon of washing soda for problems like this. It is much like a water change alternative short term. It gives the aquarists a little time for a water change.  An ounce of this solution in 10 to 20 gallons of water gives the fish a lot of Sodium and raises the pH out of the Poisonous NitRITE in old tank water. It doesn't take the place of a water change but gives one a little time and may save some fish from old water problems.

        Charles H



        Hi Noura,
         I'm sorry to hear you lost your Clown Loach & no I didn't see anything posted either.
         John<o)))<
        On 12 December 2015 at 23:06 "sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

        Hi Noura,
         
        It appears that your message of Friday morning was never sent by Yahoo to the moderators for approval.  I hadn't seen it and I'd presume that John hadn't seen it, or it would have been approved and posted.
         
        Sorry to hear about you losing the Clown Loach.  We can't win them all, and puzzling behavior displays that don't show anything distinctive make things very difficult to diagnose.  We're not really sure if this fish actually did have gill burn; the behavior could have been attributed to a number of things, besides gill burn.  I hope your Guppies are doing well.
         
        Ray
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56939 From: Charles Harrison Date: 12/12/2015
        Subject: Re: Anyone here have experinece with raising killifish eggs???
        Re: [AquaticLife] Anyone here have experinece with raising
        Okay, everything sounds great. Does anyone here have any Walter worms or bannana worms, vinegar eels or micro worm, or white worm cultures? I know that the baby killies can't eat all of them, but the adults should be able to right?

        Write back to me at the email address in the header. I'll send you some Microworms and we might work on some Flubendazole for your hatching water to kill off the Velvet hatch along with the fish eggs. But of you really want to raise and keep Killifish - you need to learn to hatch Brine Shrimp.

        Charles H



        On Saturday, December 12, 2015 1:50 PM, "Amber Larr love_animals07@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
        Okay, that really does explain why I've had so many problems with my water sprite. I've always heard it's a fast grower and I couldn't figure out what I was doing wrong.


        On Saturday, December 12, 2015 1:09 PM, "Charles Harrison charles@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
        Water sprite is mostly an emerged growth plant. It really doesn't
        stay in the water. Given time and the light, it will push the lid of
        its tank open with above the water line growth.

        Sure is has nice roots for eggs and protozoa, etc. to live in but the
        stuff just gets out of hand and out of the tank. Anacharis, Java Moss
        and Java ferns are much better alternatives.
        Charles H
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56940 From: Noura T. Date: 12/13/2015
        Subject: Re: Possible Gill Burns?

        No worries, John. Thank you J

         

        Noura

         

        From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
        Sent: 13 كانون الأول, 2015 01:25 ص
        To: aquaticlife
        Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Possible Gill Burns?

         

         

        Hi Noura,

         I'm sorry to hear you lost your Clown Loach & no I didn't see anything posted either.

         John<o)))<

        On 12 December 2015 at 23:06 "sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

         

         

        Hi Noura,

         

        It appears that your message of Friday morning was never sent by Yahoo to the moderators for approval.  I hadn't seen it and I'd presume that John hadn't seen it, or it would have been approved and posted.

         

        Sorry to hear about you losing the Clown Loach.  We can't win them all, and puzzling behavior displays that don't show anything distinctive make things very difficult to diagnose.  We're not really sure if this fish actually did have gill burn; the behavior could have been attributed to a number of things, besides gill burn.  I hope your Guppies are doing well. 

         

        Ray

         


         


         

        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56941 From: Noura T. Date: 12/13/2015
        Subject: Re: Possible Gill Burns?

        Thank you for the tip, Charles. Have you tried it yourself often?

         

        Noura

         

        From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
        Sent: 13 كانون الأول, 2015 05:01 ص
        To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Possible Gill Burns?

         

         

        Hi Noura and all,

                I keep a 1/2 liter solution of a tablespoon of Baking Soda and a teaspoon of washing soda for problems like this. It is much like a water change alternative short term. It gives the aquarists a little time for a water change.  An ounce of this solution in 10 to 20 gallons of water gives the fish a lot of Sodium and raises the pH out of the Poisonous NitRITE in old tank water. It doesn't take the place of a water change but gives one a little time and may save some fish from old water problems.

         

        Charles H

         

         

         

        Hi Noura,

         I'm sorry to hear you lost your Clown Loach & no I didn't see anything posted either.

         John<o)))<

        On 12 December 2015 at 23:06 "sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

         

        Hi Noura,

         

        It appears that your message of Friday morning was never sent by Yahoo to the moderators for approval.  I hadn't seen it and I'd presume that John hadn't seen it, or it would have been approved and posted.

         

        Sorry to hear about you losing the Clown Loach.  We can't win them all, and puzzling behavior displays that don't show anything distinctive make things very difficult to diagnose.  We're not really sure if this fish actually did have gill burn; the behavior could have been attributed to a number of things, besides gill burn.  I hope your Guppies are doing well.

         

        Ray

        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56942 From: Charles Harrison Date: 12/13/2015
        Subject: Re: Possible Gill Burns?
        RE: [AquaticLife] Possible Gill Burns?
        Oh yes, if I see a tank struggling in the morning and don't have time to change the water - I'll put a little of my pH up buffer in the water and change the water that evening.

        Thank you for the tip, Charles. Have you tried it yourself often?
         
        Noura
         
        From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
        Sent: 13 “«ÊËÊ «”ˆË”¨Ý2015Ý05:01Ý'
        To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Possible Gill Burns?
         
         
        Hi Noura and all,
                I keep a 1/2 liter solution of a tablespoon of Baking Soda and a teaspoon of washing soda for problems like this. It is much like a water change alternative short term. It gives the aquarists a little time for a water change.  An ounce of this solution in 10 to 20 gallons of water gives the fish a lot of Sodium and raises the pH out of the Poisonous NitRITE in old tank water. It doesn't take the place of a water change but gives one a little time and may save some fish from old water problems.
         
        Charles H
         
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56943 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 12/13/2015
        Subject: Re: Possible Gill Burns?

        Hi Charles,

          I was very interested to read about your stop-gap tip & is not something I've heard of before. Could you please clarify exactly what the washing soda is because it may be something completely different this side of The Pond!

         John<o)))<

        On 13 December 2015 at 22:59 "Charles Harrison charles@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

         

         

        Oh yes, if I see a tank struggling in the morning and don't have time to change the water - I'll put a little of my pH up buffer in the water and change the water that evening.

        Thank you for the tip, Charles. Have you tried it yourself often?
         
        Noura
         
        From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
        Sent: 13 “«ÊËÊ «”ˆË” ̈Ý2015Ý05:01Ý'
        To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Possible Gill Burns?
         
         
        Hi Noura and all,
                I keep a 1/2 liter solution of a tablespoon of Baking Soda and a teaspoon of washing soda for problems like this. It is much like a water change alternative short term. It gives the aquarists a little time for a water change.  An ounce of this solution in 10 to 20 gallons of water gives the fish a lot of Sodium and raises the pH out of the Poisonous NitRITE in old tank water. It doesn't take the place of a water change but gives one a little time and may save some fish from old water problems.
         
        Charles H
         

         


         


         

        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56944 From: Charles Harrison Date: 12/13/2015
        Subject: Re: Possible Gill Burns?
        RE: [AquaticLife] Possible Gill Burns?
        Sure,
        Backing Soda is NaHCO3 (Sodium Bicarbonate) while Washing Soda is Na2CO3  (Sodium Carbonate).

                In many small tanks 5 to 10 gallons, a little of this mixture will take the pH up from 3-5 to 8-9. It is seldom the Ammonia is really as serious as NitRITEs and Nitrous Acid. The toilet just needs to be flushed but a little mild buffer up and the addition of Sodium helps as a short time soothing stop-gap.

        Charles H



         I was very interested to read about your stop-gap tip & is not something I've heard of before. Could you please clarify exactly what the washing soda is because it may be something completely different this side of The Pond!

         John<o)))<
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56945 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 12/13/2015
        Subject: Re: Possible Gill Burns?

        That's great-thank you.

         John<o)))<

        On 13 December 2015 at 23:55 "Charles Harrison charles@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

         

         

        Sure,
        Backing Soda is NaHCO3 (Sodium Bicarbonate) while Washing Soda is Na2CO3  (Sodium Carbonate).

                In many small tanks 5 to 10 gallons, a little of this mixture will take the pH up from 3-5 to 8-9. It is seldom the Ammonia is really as serious as NitRITEs and Nitrous Acid. The toilet just needs to be flushed but a little mild buffer up and the addition of Sodium helps as a short time soothing stop-gap.

        Charles H



         I was very interested to read about your stop-gap tip & is not something I've heard of before. Could you please clarify exactly what the washing soda is because it may be something completely different this side of The Pond!

         John <o)))<

         


         


         

        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56946 From: noura_taweel Date: 12/14/2015
        Subject: Re: Possible Gill Burns?
        Hi Ray,

        I sent 3 replies to my topic yesterday, and only two of them appeared. (one more reason to seriously think of moving to Facebook, besides sharing pics!) ;-)

        I will post again via the web. This was yesterdays message:

        Thank you Ray. No we’re not sure indeed.

        Guppies are fine J

         

        Today I searched and could find just one very small box of Chinese flake food (100 ml/22 g) in a tiny LFS, Expiry date 2012. I also found one box of Cichlid pellets (500 ml) with the same Exp. date, which I assume is fine for the pleco and guppies when the basic flakes are gone(?). The pleco is used to hunt food from the surface, so floating foods are not an issue for him.

         

        Ingredients of Chichlid Pellet (500 ml container):

        Fish meal, dried yeast, shrimp meal, wheat gluten, soya meal, algae astaxanthin, multi vitamins and trace minerals

        Analysis:

        Crude protein min 30%

        Crude fat min 3%

        Crude fiber max 10%

        Moisture max 8%  (hmmmmm….)

         

         

        Ingredients of Basic Flakes (100 ml/22 g):

        Fish meal, shrimp meal, wheat germ, soya meal, yeast, fish oil, lecithin, vitamin C, choline, amino acid, multi-vitamins and minerals.

        Analysis:

        Crude protein min 38%

        Crude fat min 5%

        Crude ash max 16%

        Crude fiber max 5%

        Moisture max 8%

         

        Here’s last Friday’s email:

         

         

        From: Noura T. [mailto:n-ocean@...]
        Sent: 11 كانون الأول, 2015 12:41 ص
        To: 'AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com'
        Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Possible Gill Burns?

         

        Hi Ray,

         

        Thank you so much for your detailed reply. I’ll answer the questions below.

         

        Hi Noura,

         

        For the time being, I would use the Chinese fish food even though it's long past it's expiration date -- if its make-up isn't similar to this new fish food appearing to be made mostly of flour.  At least its ingredients might be more natural, even if it no longer is that nourishing.  This would be only temporary though (if it's of better quality), until you can get some newer fish food.  The fish still need something to eat and perhaps that could tide them over. 

         

        ** The Chinese food is certainly of a better quality than the local food (sold in bulk).

         

        Now, if you're sure this new food contains salt, do you see it dissolve when it hits the water?  This might tell you if in fact it is salt. 

         

        ** No it doesn’t dissolve. And it is so thick if compared to normal flakes (bad manufacturing). I tasted it and I don’t think there is a noticeable amount of salt after all!

         

        For the fish to eat any appreciable amount of salt over time though, cannot be very good for it.  It could interfere with its osmoregulatory system -- that bodily function that fish use to balance the amount of water vs minerals in their bloodstream and tissues.  A little bit wouldn't seem to hurt though.

         

        Not knowing for how long you've been feeding this new food, if its been over an extended period of time, and if it is primarily just flour, this very well could cause an ammonia build up as it decays, as you suspect. 

         

        ** I started using it about 8-10 days ago.

         

        Your doing a couple of 50% PWC's is fine, but still, if the fish has developed ammonia poisoning from it, this condition can only be reversed by adding salt to the water -- in the amount of 3 teaspoons of salt per U.S. gallon (3.785 Litres) for between two and up to three weeks -- which Clown Loaches will not tolerate.  While it's far too late at this point in time to have an ammonia toxicity program in place, it only takes a very small amount of salt in the water at all times, like 1/8 teaspoon per gallon or less, to prevent ammonia poisoning from ever happening at all when this token amount of salt in constantly maintained. 

         

        ** I will start implementing that in the other two tanks as a precautious procedure, especially with the long power outages that we have. 1 teaspoon/30 litres.

         

        For now, you can try using the usual dosage of salt used for Ich treatments -- at 1 Tablespoon per 5 U.S. gallons -- which Clown Loaches will tolerate, but right now after the fish has developed ammonia poisoning (if it has), this much smaller level of salt will take considerably longer to correct this problem. 

         

        I'm guessing you don't have an ammonia test kit, or you would have already tested the water for any content of it before doing the partial water changes.  Could you please give us the pH test reading?  Ammonia becomes more toxic as the pH increases.  If your pH is nearer neutral (pH 7.0), the chances are more remote that toxic ammonia has built up.  Much of it would be in the form of relatively non-toxic ammonium. 

         

        ** My tap water’s pH is about 7.8 and my tanks water has always been 8.2 – 8.4 over the past 20 years

         

         

        Depending again on how long this food has been used, and how much ammonia has been converted to nitrite during this time, nitrite poisoning could have developed, especially as the pH becomes more acidic.  That can be correct by using Methylene Blue, but as Clown Loaches are scale-less fish, it doesn't take much of this dye medication to penetrate their skin to become toxic to them.  Clown Loaches are more touchy in this respect, only because they're scale-less fish.  This is also why you can't use larger amounts of salt in their water, as it would tend to dehydrate them.

         

         

        One further question, you mentioned suspecting this new food may contain food coloring (a dye).  Do you see it changing the color of the water? 

         

        ** No its colors don’t dissolve into water. But I’m positive that it has plenty of coloring. The colors are so bright that they leave no doubt. Adding food coloring (worst qualities) is a common practice here, people don’t realize its health hazards  L

         

        Gill burns can be caused by too low of a pH -- the water being too acidic.  This can cause the symptoms you mentioned.  Again, pH reading, especially before you've done PWC's would indicate this.  I don't know of any short-term remedy for this.  Damage is done by gill burns, which takes time for repairing and it's not always a 100% repair.  Water with low nitrate content (via large & frequent PWC's) will help. 

         

        ** unfortunately, I haven’t thought of measuring water with my very outdated test kit before doing the PWC  L

         

        Oh, another question; how much and how often have you been making PWC's on this tank, and how long have you had this Clown Loach in the tank?  I'm guessing its a fairly new fish as you hadn't mentioned it recently.

         

        ** Not often enough, I think. 20% every 2 weeks. It’s a 20 G tank with 1 Clown Loach, 1 small pleco, and 3 Guppies (Added about 10 days ago, and they had a dozen of babies on the same day when I noticed that the Loach is having problems). They all look fine except the Loach.

        I have the Clown Loach since over 3 years (could be 5 years, I lost track of time since the stressful events started here). His last friend died about a year ago.

         

        ** He’s acting the same today, no improvement. But for a few minutes I noticed he was breathing at a normal rate then it was gasping again when I checked moments later.

         

         

        Thank you,

         

        Noura

        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56947 From: wilfredreims Date: 12/14/2015
        Subject: Re: Anyone here have experinece with raising killifish eggs???
        Java moss can had at most graden shops or flower stores 

        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56948 From: wilfredreims Date: 12/14/2015
        Subject: Re: Anyone here have experinece with raising killifish eggs???
        Reading Ray info on what he posted is quite right he knows what he is talking about it been several years that I have keep them I  keep blue garleis  spelling is not right I thank they r the simples of the breed to keep and I had a lot of fun at it but I was about 14 teen when I keeped  them many noons ago my friend 
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56949 From: wilfredreims Date: 12/14/2015
        Subject: Re: Anyone here have experinece with raising killifish eggs???
        under water heater is fine and a must for if I remember they like it warm 78 to 80 check it out 1st 
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56950 From: sevenspringss Date: 12/14/2015
        Subject: Re: Possible Gill Burns?
        Hi Noura,
         
        I did not see the third reply yesterday, that you're referring to.  I don't recall at all either, the replies you sent last Friday to my longer message.  I see your reasoning for considering a move to Facebook and I hope you will be getting good advice there.  Not sure, but I believe Dawn said she was on there; I don't ever intend on joining Facebook though.
         
        The flake food seems to be a better general fish food than the Cichlid pellets, going by its higher protein content, while the low protein content in the pellet food indicates it's primarily intended for rock-dwelling Rift Lake Cichlids -- not that it can't be used for other fishes though.  I do note the higher than normal ash content in the flake food, however.  Ash, in fish food, is derived from the calcium and other minerals in the fish meal, and while a higher percentage of this would seem more beneficial, it makes the food a bit harder to digest.  A normal ash content would be no more than 12%.  Still, with not much of an alternative -- other than the pellet food -- which has a higher fiber content (making this fish food also a bit harder to digest), the flake food seemed like the better choice until you run out of it.  I notice they're both expired at the same time, and while I stated that they wouldn't be as nutritious, this pertains to their vitamin content.  All dry fish foods will lose most of their vitamin content within the first two months, at room temperature -- one major reason for storing these fish foods in the refrigerator, or freezer if you have a larger quantity of it.
         
        As for the "thick" material in the fish food, that doesn't dissolve, it probably isn't salt at all as was first thought.  If this thicker food is similarly colored as compared to most of the other food, I've seen this in some quality fish foods here in the States.  Because of this part of the fish food being thicker, is this why you thought it might be primarily flour?  I believe that it's just one of the specific ingredients that just don't manufacture well into a thinner food.  Try breaking it up with a hammer (if possible -- without crumbling the rest of the food into dust) while keeping it inside of a plastic bag.  It should be much easier to the fish to eat it then.
         
        Eight to ten days of using this new fish food -- even if it does contain flour, which has been decaying -- should not being your pH 8.2 - 8.4 water down to such an acid level as to cause Gill Burn or even nitrite poisoning, as it's extremely doubtful that your tank water would have even dropped below pH 7.0 during this period.  With feeding these very few fish you have, you couldn't have been using all that much of it, in any case.  If you've observed (and I'm sure you've watched to see how the fish responded to this new food) if the fish were eating most of this new food, I have to wonder how much of this residual flour was left to cause enough of a major change in your water chemistry.  While we'll never know, you aught to keep in mind to take a pH test whenever you have fish issues.  This in itself may tell us a lot, even if not everything.  Ammonia and Nitrate tests are always good to know, if you can get these kits.

        With your tap water being pH 7.8, and especially as your tank water always being pH 8.2 - 8.4 (over the last 20 years), it's highly unlikely that your pH would dip down into the acid range causing you to fear nitrite poisoning, even if you hadn't done a partial water change in two weeks.  Your 20 gallon tank was not heavily stocked, with 1 Clown Loach, 1 small Pleco and 3 Guppies, although you hadn't said what size this 3 year old (or 5 year old) Loach was. While this fish is not especially a fast grower, I've seen them reach over 12" at times.  With your pH possibly being as high as 8.4 however, I can see why you may have had ammonia toxicity as, depending on temperature too, the higher the pH level the more Ammonium (relatively non-toxic) will be converted into Free (toxic) Ammonia; a pH 8.4 value at 80 o (or even at 78 o) will convert much of any present Ammonium into Ammonia, making the environment quite toxic even if not lethal.
         
        I can also now see how a PWC using your pH 7.8 tap water would bring your tank's pH down from your pH high's (besides removing any excess ammonia).  As you should preferably want to keep your pH as near to that of your tap water as possible, weekly PWC's would be the best thing rather than waiting 2 weeks.  The token level of salt should prevent any further ammonia toxicity though.  As an alternative, I would suggest using a dechloraminator-type of water condition (such as the Prime we have here in the States), but I doubt you have that available by you, and further doubt that your tap water even contains chloramine but more likely just has chlorine (so you wouldn't normally have a use for this type of water conditioner).  Prime and similar water conditions converts Free-Ammonia back into Ammonium, even at higher pH levels.  BTW, don't forget to add back any salt you remove during PWCing.  If you do a 1/3 water change in 20 gallons you be removing 1/3 of the original amount of salt you've added, so you need to replace (only) this amount of salt.  Keep this in mind for every PWC you do in the future, to keep this same salt level in the water at all times
         
        Ray
         
         
         
         
         
         
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56951 From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c Date: 12/14/2015
        Subject: Re: Anyone here have experinece with raising killifish eggs???
        Some great info offered here, I just want to add one thing.  My husband used to breed killlies, lots of different species, both annuals and others.  I noticed all of the mention about java moss/plants and wanted to let you know what he did for his, without the need for live plants.  He made "yarn mops" for each tank.  It's very easy to do.  Take a piece of cardboard and wrap some yarn around it until it's nice and thick, then take a short piece of yarn and slide it through on one end (under the yarn along the edge of the cardboard), pull tight to gather up all of the yarn strands, and then tie it off.  Once that is done, take a scissors and cut along the opposite edge of the cardboard.  When finished it looks kind of like a mop head and will generally float in the water.  This should be done far enough in advance to allow it to seed in the tank before the eggs go in for hatching.  The yarn mops work well for cultivating rotifers, infusoria, etc. as long as they have a food supply.  My husband would set up the yarn mops in the tanks and seed them with food source all through the incubation period and he had a wonderful success rate.  When he and I first started dating he had about 20 killie breeding tanks going and each was a different species, and all were thriving.  The mops are long lasting, don't require special care, and can be reused in different tanks easily just by lifting them out and setting them in, already seeded with food, so long as they stay wet and there is a food source for the live food.  It's also nice that you can make the mops any size you want/need simply by changing the width of the cardboard, so you can make them to work in any size tank.

        Best of luck to you!

        Dawn
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56952 From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c Date: 12/14/2015
        Subject: Re: Grass
        An easy way to block the light coming in from the window is to take a couple of large black opaque garbage bags and line the outside of the back of the tank with them, then simply tape it right to the tank in the 4 corners.  It won't look the best from outside the window but it is effective, cheap, and easy.  Be sure to run it under any cords that hang down along the back side of the tank so they don't cause puckers that will continue to let the sunlight in. 
        Also, as the algae dies be sure to do extra water changes (not more water each time, but more frequently) to keep up with the added ammonia, nitrite, nitrate as the plant matter dies and breaks down.  I have seen a lot of people crash their tanks by missing this important step.  The added organic nutrients can also feed the algae further and provide for a never ending cycle of algae growth even without the sunlight.  Dying/dead algae can pollute a tank quickly and the organics created by the dying matter is ultimately, plant food... so algae being a dominant plant, it will utilize those nutrients to further it's growth rate (and speed it up quickly, too). 

        Dawn
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56953 From: sevenspringss Date: 12/14/2015
        Subject: Re: Anyone here have experinece with raising killifish eggs...
        Hi Dawn,
         
        Good information you provided here on making (nylon) yarn mops.  I use many myself that I've made, and add them to my plant-spawning ("mop spawning") Killifish breeding tanks.  Best to use a dark color, like brown or green, for ease in finding the eggs (unless the breeder just wants to take the mop out and drop it in a hatching/rearing tank -- not something normally done).  Usually, which I know I don't need to tell you, but for the benefit of others, after a week's time, the mops are pulled out of the breeding tank and the eggs are picked out of the mops and placed in a small hatching container to which a funguscide is added. 
         
        Many Killifish breeders use small plastic shoe boxes for this purpose.  On average and depending also on temperature, these eggs will hatch in approximately three weeks.  As most Killifish -- especially mop spawners -- don't lay all their eggs at one time, but instead spread them out continually over the days, harvesting Killie eggs laid within more than a 7 day period is to be avoided as the growing fishes' sizes will vary too much; the larger ones will tend to see the smaller ones as food.
         
        To ensure that the mops that I need to float will do so, I take a large (1 1/2" diameter) cork and cut a groove around its circumference.  Then I take a piece of yarn and tie the mop to the cork, right around it.  I remember reading in one of the AKA Journal I receive, that its been found that the Killies prefer certain colors, but I don't remember what those colors were.  They'll lay eggs in just about any color mop though.
         
        As not all mop spawners breed at mid-water nor near the top, leaving the cork off the mop ensures that it sinks, for those mop spawners preferring to breed on the bottom. 
         
        As this topic started with Amber being about to receive some annual Killie eggs soon, these mops won't do much good right now in the rearing tanks as they won't have time to develop very much small life for the fry to pick on, which is why I recommended Java Moss or Najas -- one of which at least can be found in most fish shops, and which usually harbor a host of microorganisms for fry to browse on in between feedings.  Besides which, as Nothobranchius males are aggressive by their nature as they develop towards maturity, which doesn't take very long with annuals, these plants will provide cover for the juvenile females as the plants spread.  I use both of these plants (one or the other, depending on the tank) in my Killifish rearing tanks (and non-breeding adult Killie tanks) if only as a food source between meals -- and to give the fish a sense of security.  Killifish are notorious for jumping, more so when they don't feel secure, and seem to be able to find the smallest opening in the tank top to aim for -- like where the filter hose comes in or where an upright hanging heater extends through the top.  They're too often successful at it too.
         
        Ray
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56954 From: Donna Ransome Date: 12/14/2015
        Subject: Re: Grass
        I have a tank directly in front of a south-facing window and no algae problems.



        It’s the back of the tank, so the solid background does the trick.



        From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
        Sent: Monday, December 14, 2015 3:03 PM
        To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Grass





        An easy way to block the light coming in from the window is to take a couple of large black opaque garbage bags and line the outside of the back of the tank with them, then simply tape it right to the tank in the 4 corners. It won't look the best from outside the window but it is effective, cheap, and easy. Be sure to run it under any cords that hang down along the back side of the tank so they don't cause puckers that will continue to let the sunlight in.
        Also, as the algae dies be sure to do extra water changes (not more water each time, but more frequently) to keep up with the added ammonia, nitrite, nitrate as the plant matter dies and breaks down. I have seen a lot of people crash their tanks by missing this important step. The added organic nutrients can also feed the algae further and provide for a never ending cycle of algae growth even without the sunlight. Dying/dead algae can pollute a tank quickly and the organics created by the dying matter is ultimately, plant food... so algae being a dominant plant, it will utilize those nutrients to further it's growth rate (and speed it up quickly, too).

        Dawn





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56955 From: love_animals07 Date: 12/14/2015
        Subject: Red lines at base of fins on SAEs!!!?
        I posted this to plantedtank.net, so I thought I'd just copy it and post it here to since you've all been so much help.

        This has nothing to do with my killifish eggs.

        Here's some info on the tank before I paste the rest of the information:
        55 gallon
        2 Angelfish
        10 guppies
        3 Siamese Algae Eaters
        1 small High fin spotted pleco
        Quiet flow 50 filter
        Cycled
        Nitrate under 30ppm
        Temperature around 72 degrees.
        All fish except the SAEs have eaten in the passed 24 hours.

        Hey all...

        I just posted a video to another person's topic asking about SAEs.

        It was of my three siamese algae eaters.

        While taking the video I noticed something very concerning...

        Red marks on the base of their fins where they meet the body. One of my angels is showing red marks as well...

        Here's the video:

        https://flic.kr/p/C4VnBX

        Sigh... It's one thing after another for me. First internal parasites (???) in this tank and now this.

        What have I done / noticed different?

        I took out the leopard danios from the tank. They are in a 10 gallon right now. They've fattened out nicely on a diet of blood worms. They were the thinnest in the tank and were dropping one by one.

        I've treated the 55 gallon (where my SAEs are) with prazipro and that wasn't working all that well. So, I started metroplex instead. I did do a 50% water change on the tank, but for some reason it didn't occur to me to use carbon (bangs head on wall).

        I mixed 2 measure of the medicine in to a cube of blood worms for them. The SAEs didn't touch them at all.... That was less than 1/2 of their required dose. I then mixed another 3 measures and put it in the tank (the rest of the tank's dose).

        So, could it be Hemorrhagic septicemia? Or could it be the result of *possible* medication mix? Or maybe sores due to T.B.? (Which I have been considering but I really don't even want to think about...

        Ideas?

        I have done a 25% water change earlier due to a slight cloudiness to the water (no idea why...) and the fact that my SAEs have been less active recently. I also added some activated carbon to the tank.


        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56956 From: Amber Larr Date: 12/14/2015
        Subject: Re: Anyone here have experinece with raising killifish eggs???
        It is very helpful. All of this is. I don't know what I would do if I hadn't had this much help.

        With all of the issues I've had with fish, I know I can use all the help possible. Right now I'm just hoping my SAEs will make it though this septicemia issue, and I must say that I've become good at treating dieases. Any more and I'll have a whole pharmacy of medication ;). Of course, it'll help with treating for velvet in these new fish. I did mention it to the seller, but I don't know if I will get a reply.

        The eggs have been (or will be, not sure...) shipped. The message I got said that "The eggs were shipped as of 12/15/2015. A little confusing, since it's 10 pm on the 14th where I live. But, I guess. Different time zones and typos. I was also told it will take 20+ days for them to get here. So I still have time.

        A lot of this information I already knew thanks to all of you. Thank you again.

        Here's the hatching guide I was sent:

        PS. when arrive date to hatch or before hatch date just open and watch for golden iris too if still not see it please cover all container similar with original condition keep in foam box or your wardrobe and wait until can see golden iris that you will sucessful to hatch this eggs :)

        PS. these eggs can hatch before hatch date if ready have "golden iris" can start to hatch in that time

        if over 24 hours after start to hatch eggs still not hatch please filter and dry same with original condition wait 1-2 weeks for try rehatch again later and do same this step 5-6 times  until all eggs was hatch.


        HOW TO HATCH (use fresh water to hatch)
        The eye in egg can be clearly seen with its golden iris. This is the best sign that
        they are ready to hatch

         



        When the eggs are ready to hatch  place them with the peat
        into a container with a couple inches of water. It is important that this water has
        a high oxygen content, so keep it cool (16-20?c) and shallow to start with and add
        gentle aeration. A high level of oxygen will ensure that all fry are able to fill their
        swimbladders and maintain buoyancy.



        Fish that fail to do this are known as belly sliders.
        After a day or two the fry can be moved to larger quarters, either by spooning them out,
        or sucking them up using a baster or large pipette. The fry can be raised most easily in
        a large tank, shallow at first, which is gradually topped up. Feed Artemia ,Try and
        include a few snails, to eat up uneaten food, and a few plants to keep the water clean
        and encourage infusoria. This can be accomplished in several smaller tanks. Even with
        very frequent water changes it is very hard to raise more than a handful of these fish
        in a single small tank. As the fish grow the largest start to dominate and should be
        separated. these are generally males, and will out-compete some of the smaller (often female)
        fish. If well fed, many Nothobranchius will be fully coloured and breeding several weeks
        from hatching.
        WATER QUALITY
        Temperature range of 72-75 ?F  pH between 6.0- 7.0
         
        Time for hatch 
        >>> use time not over 48 hours for hatch.

        Easy technic before start hatch
        1. raise moist to killifish eggs and tool before hatch about 1-2 weeks (raise percentage for hatch)
        2. use time for hatch about 48 hours during wait for hatch you can little to stir water 2-3 time per 24 hours for help same as nature of killifish same as starting rainy :)



        On Monday, December 14, 2015 2:55 PM, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:




        Some great info offered here, I just want to add one thing.  My husband used to breed killlies, lots of different species, both annuals and others.  I noticed all of the mention about java moss/plants and wanted to let you know what he did for his, without the need for live plants.  He made "yarn mops" for each tank.  It's very easy to do.  Take a piece of cardboard and wrap some yarn around it until it's nice and thick, then take a short piece of yarn and slide it through on one end (under the yarn along the edge of the cardboard), pull tight to gather up all of the yarn strands, and then tie it off.  Once that is done, take a scissors and cut along the opposite edge of the cardboard.  When finished it looks kind of like a mop head and will generally float in the water.  This should be done far enough in advance to allow it to seed in the tank before the eggs go in for hatching.  The yarn mops work well for cultivating rotifers, infusoria, etc. as long as they have a food supply.  My husband would set up the yarn mops in the tanks and seed them with food source all through the incubation period and he had a wonderful success rate.  When he and I first started dating he had about 20 killie breeding tanks going and each was a different species, and all were thriving.  The mops are long lasting, don't require special care, and can be reused in different tanks easily just by lifting them out and setting them in, already seeded with food, so long as they stay wet and there is a food source for the live food.  It's also nice that you can make the mops any size you want/need simply by changing the width of the cardboard, so you can make them to work in any size tank.

        Best of luck to you!

        Dawn



        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56957 From: sevenspringss Date: 12/14/2015
        Subject: Re: Red lines at base of fins on SAEs!!!?
        Hi Amber,
         
        Please sign your posts, even though you've made yourself known a few days ago.  I notice that you state your tank is cycled,  What makes you state that it is at this point in time?  I also note that you state your Nitrate is 30 ppm.  What was your Nitrate value before the PWC's?  What were the readings for your Nitrite and Ammonia?  Also, what was your pH in this tank?
         
        Without knowing anything else, and just going by your description, it very much sounds like Hemorrhagic Septicemia has set in.  Why have you treated the tank with Praziquantel (Prazipro) and why have you fed your fish Metroplex-soaked bloodworms if you don't know the cause of this manifestation?  Fish should never be given medications indiscriminately when you don't know what you're treating for.
         
        Red marks in the fins are most often a sign of Hemorrhagic Septicemia (blood poisoning) sometimes caused by either a virus or a bacteria -- but most often caused by a spike in Ammonia (or Nitrite when conditions are acidic).  A reduction in activity will accompany the fishes behavior as well as heavier gill movement and possible gasping at the surface as the condition advances.  Mixing medications is rarely a good idea unless you know they're compatible, but why would you think this condition was caused by this mixture when it was observed before you began treating the fish?  If it turned out that this was a bacterial or viral issue -- which appears that this is what you've assumed -- why did you remove the Leopard Danios and not treat them as well (even though a pathogen may well not be the cause in this case)?  If the Zebras were exposed to a disease, it would be prudent to treat them as well, unless you were waiting (and hoping for the best) to see if they'd escape contracting this "malady," which often isn't the right step to take.  That you removed them from a high ammonia condition though, may have inadvertently been the best thing in this case.
         
        I realize that you stated your tank pH is between 8.2 and 8.4, but have you checked your pH before you did any water changing?  Your fish may have Septicemia caused by "brown-blood" syndrome -- Nitrite-induced Methemoglobinemia.  This would be the result of high Nitrite in acidic pH conditions.  ALWAYS check your water parameters as the first step in attributing a possible cause for the condition(s) you're observing, before taking steps to correct them.  This is vital information that can often go a long way in possibly determining what factors are at work and what issue(s) are going on as a result of these parameters, should these factors/parameters be abnormal.
         
        Your "slight cloudiness" may well be the result of what's called "new tank syndrome," not necessary due to a new tank set up but due to a mini-cycle in which your ammonia would have spiked (your cycle has been interrupted, for whatever reason).  With this observation mind, it's now appearing more like this is not a Nitrite problem but an Ammonia problem.  While you've already done a 62.5% water change (a 50% PWC and a subsequent 25% PWC -- of this 50% change) and since you've added "some" (how much) activated carbon to the tank (filter?), it may be safe to assume you've removed at least most of the medication from there water column -- depending on the amount of activated carbon used.  At this point, and without knowing your water parameters leading up to this condition, everything known leads to suggesting cautiously adding salt to this tank in the amount of 1 Tablespoon per 5 gallons to start with ("cautiously," not because this amount of salt is a danger, but because everything known is not a lot to go on as a diagnosis, yet whatever is known suggests this is the right direction to go in to address your fishes' condition. 
         
        Salt negates the toxic effects of Ammonia poisoning.  However, Ammonia poisoning is best treat by salt at a rate of 3 teaspoons per gallon, which your Siamese Algae Eaters may not tolerate.  As this level of salt needs to be added progressively over several days anyway, the recommended level would be a good place to start.  You may add one more Tablespoon of salt per 5 gallons tomorrow and watch to see if the Algae Eaters display adversity to it (by tiring in their ability to stabilize themselves in a swimming position).  If they accept this salt level without problem, you may add an additional Tablespoon of salt per 5 gallons the following day, being ready to do a 1/3 PWC if you see any signs of stress in the fish.  Keep an eye on the Leopard Danios to see if they begin to display these issue manifestations and add salt to their tank too, if they appear to need it.       
         
        Ray         
         
                 
         
         
         
         
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56958 From: Amber Larr Date: 12/15/2015
        Subject: Re: Red lines at base of fins on SAEs!!!?
        Alright, let me see.... The tank has been clycled for months now. I haven't touched the filter at all and last week (Friday) the ammonia and nitrite were at 0 and the nitrate at 30. I did a 1/2 water change on that day. I didn't check the water again yesterday because I had just checked it on Friday but I can do so again today.

        I thought the cloudy look was just the slight growth of new algae. It happens often in the tank as it sits in my south-east facing window. That's why I had gotten the Siamese Algae Eaters to start with; I thought they would have enough algae to be happy and fat (which they are).

        The leopard danios were moved out because I was planning on trying to breed them again. It was then that I noticed how thin several of them were and that all of them had a reddened area around their vent. I watched them and did noticed white poop, although I couldn't be 100% sure that it wasn't just the food I was feeding. So, I started internal parastite treatment (the PraziPro). I treated both the danios in the 10 gallon where I was planning on conditioning them and the 55 gallon where they came from. After about two weeks I saw no improvement, and one of my danios died. So I thought I was dealing with something a little stronger, perhaps the calamus worm or something similar that wasn't effected by the PraziPro. So, I got the MetroPlex.

        When I did my water change last Friday, it had been about five days since my last treatment of PraziPro. I found the directions really confusing but I was dosing it once every two days. Last Monday was the two week mark and that's when the bottle said to stop treating. I had forgotten all about adding carbon at that time. 

        I normally do only 25% water changes but my nitrate reading was a little high and my Siamese algae eaters were acting off. I don't think it was a change in the pH. The tank usually stays right around the tap's pH reading but I didn't check it on Friday.

        So, I decided to run up to the store and grab the MetroPlex which would, hopefully, do the trick. I had messaged the store owner and asked if he happened to have any internal medications on hand and he advised me to try MetroPlex. I described my findings to him and he agreed that parasites were probably the cause.

        Let's see here....
        I've struggled with this for almost a year now. I had tiger barbs that would randomly get really thin and die. I asked around and looked it up and all I could really find that it seemed to be a problem with tiger barbs and that no one had really found a solution. So, I didn't think twice about it, really.

        Eventually I started gradually shifting the tank over to where it is now. The leopard danios are the oldest fish in the tank, and they were the worst off. Here's a picture of one: P_20151122_210659 When I noticed that the danios were also suffering from the same disease as the tiger barbs I started to do some research. Internal parasites were an option, but I had never really seen any other proof that that's what they had other than the weight loss. The other thing I considered was fish TB, but I'll admit that I tried my hardest to talk myself out of that. Still I did research on the fish and was nearly about to try KanaPlex on the tank but I didn't. Someone mentioned that internal parasites can choose one species over the others in the tank and that that was likely the reason for their thin appearance. Life got in the way and I ended up ignoring the issue (a mistake, for sure). 

        Then, one of my mollies died. I did more research but I still didn't know for sure so I ended up dropping it, blaming the death on something else even though I knew what it was because she had been quite thin.

        Next, my oldest fish in the tank at the time, my Bala Shark mysteriously died. I couldn't find a reason. Ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate were all where they should be (at this time nitrate was under 20ppm) and the pH was normal (8.2 to 8.4. I'm not exactly sure as I don't use the color chart but I've tested enough that I know the color). But still I couldn't find proof of anything so I didn't start any treatments.

        Finally that brings us to now where I had my next symptom; the red vent. Looking back, it might have been another sign of
        Hemorrhagic Septicemia, but at that time the name never came up. So, that brings everyone up to speed with my crazy ways of trying to cure my fish. 

        - Amber (sorry, I'm not used to signing the messages.... I'm trying to remember trust me.)




        On Tuesday, December 15, 2015 12:04 AM, "sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:




        Hi Amber,
         
        Please sign your posts, even though you've made yourself known a few days ago.  I notice that you state your tank is cycled,  What makes you state that it is at this point in time?  I also note that you state your Nitrate is 30 ppm.  What was your Nitrate value before the PWC's?  What were the readings for your Nitrite and Ammonia?  Also, what was your pH in this tank?
         
        Without knowing anything else, and just going by your description, it very much sounds like Hemorrhagic Septicemia has set in.  Why have you treated the tank with Praziquantel (Prazipro) and why have you fed your fish Metroplex-soaked bloodworms if you don't know the cause of this manifestation?  Fish should never be given medications indiscriminately when you don't know what you're treating for.
         
        Red marks in the fins are most often a sign of Hemorrhagic Septicemia (blood poisoning) sometimes caused by either a virus or a bacteria -- but most often caused by a spike in Ammonia (or Nitrite when conditions are acidic).  A reduction in activity will accompany the fishes behavior as well as heavier gill movement and possible gasping at the surface as the condition advances.  Mixing medications is rarely a good idea unless you know they're compatible, but why would you think this condition was caused by this mixture when it was observed before you began treating the fish?  If it turned out that this was a bacterial or viral issue -- which appears that this is what you've assumed -- why did you remove the Leopard Danios and not treat them as well (even though a pathogen may well not be the cause in this case)?  If the Zebras were exposed to a disease, it would be prudent to treat them as well, unless you were waiting (and hoping for the best) to see if they'd escape contracting this "malady," which often isn't the right step to take.  That you removed them from a high ammonia condition though, may have inadvertently been the best thing in this case.
         
        I realize that you stated your tank pH is between 8.2 and 8.4, but have you checked your pH before you did any water changing?  Your fish may have Septicemia caused by "brown-blood" syndrome -- Nitrite-induced Methemoglobinemia.  This would be the result of high Nitrite in acidic pH conditions.  ALWAYS check your water parameters as the first step in attributing a possible cause for the condition(s) you're observing, before taking steps to correct them.  This is vital information that can often go a long way in possibly determining what factors are at work and what issue(s) are going on as a result of these parameters, should these factors/parameters be abnormal.
         
        Your "slight cloudiness" may well be the result of what's called "new tank syndrome," not necessary due to a new tank set up but due to a mini-cycle in which your ammonia would have spiked (your cycle has been interrupted, for whatever reason).  With this observation mind, it's now appearing more like this is not a Nitrite problem but an Ammonia problem.  While you've already done a 62.5% water change (a 50% PWC and a subsequent 25% PWC -- of this 50% change) and since you've added "some" (how much) activated carbon to the tank (filter?), it may be safe to assume you've removed at least most of the medication from there water column -- depending on the amount of activated carbon used.  At this point, and without knowing your water parameters leading up to this condition, everything known leads to suggesting cautiously adding salt to this tank in the amount of 1 Tablespoon per 5 gallons to start with ("cautiously," not because this amount of salt is a danger, but because everything known is not a lot to go on as a diagnosis, yet whatever is known suggests this is the right direction to go in to address your fishes' condition. 
         
        Salt negates the toxic effects of Ammonia poisoning.  However, Ammonia poisoning is best treat by salt at a rate of 3 teaspoons per gallon, which your Siamese Algae Eaters may not tolerate.  As this level of salt needs to be added progressively over several days anyway, the recommended level would be a good place to start.  You may add one more Tablespoon of salt per 5 gallons tomorrow and watch to see if the Algae Eaters display adversity to it (by tiring in their ability to stabilize themselves in a swimming position).  If they accept this salt level without problem, you may add an additional Tablespoon of salt per 5 gallons the following day, being ready to do a 1/3 PWC if you see any signs of stress in the fish.  Keep an eye on the Leopard Danios to see if they begin to display these issue manifestations and add salt to their tank too, if they appear to need it.       
         
        Ray         
         
                 
         
         
         
         




        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56959 From: sevenspringss Date: 12/15/2015
        Subject: Re: Red lines at base of fins on SAEs!!!?
        Okay Amber,
         
        Thanks for filling us in on the rest of the story.  All's I can say is WOW.  You left out awful lot about your fishes' illness(es). Just for starters, there was no way to know that you've been battling this wasting away issue for nearly a year.  There's so much more here that was unknown to us, from your testing your water for Ammonia, Nitrite and Nitrate last Friday, BEFORE you did a 50% PWC, to this wasting problem itself and the history of many other previously unknown fishes that were not made aware of, all having similar problems.  The only issue you made known was that of some fish having red in their fins.  As for checking the water parameters today, while it can't hurt to know if there are any changes, that you knew what they were before you made the PWC's would have told you if anything was excessive.  The 30 ppm Nitrate is not excessive even though it could be more ideal -- and it indicates that the tank is cycling, except when the cycle is interrupted yet no PWC has been done; a residual reading will be obtained, not meaning very much as pertains to the cycle. 
         
        So to go back to last Friday, it's now clear that you've taken water parameter tests before doing anything else.  Your results do not indicate an elevated Ammonia value prior to making the large PWC, of course, now that you've thoroughly explained it; you have no appreciable Nitrite content either.  This would rule out the possibility of Hemorrhagic Septicemia.
         
        As for the cloudy look, most often this describes a whitish/grayish nitrifying bacteria bloom (more specifically Nitrosomonas and Nitrospira, as it's the ammonia that first spikes when a cycle is disrupted).  I have to assume now that this is a greenish cloudy condition, which was wasn't previously brought out, and which would indicate suspended algae.  OR, IS this cloudy condition greenish at all?  If it happens to be, then it IS suspended algae, a form that inhabits the water column and does not populate the aquarium's surfaces (plants, rocks, glass, etc.).  As such please know that Siamese Algae Eaters are useless in eliminating this as they can't take advantage of consuming it.  Algae Eaters feed on surfaces where other types of Algae grow.           
         
        With your use of PraziPro for two weeks and your fish not getting any better, this would seem to rule out Camallanus, Tapeworm, Digenetic Flukes, Flatworm and most other internal parasites.  Then too, as PraziPro is not very water soluble, its use as a treatment can sometimes depend on which form is used and may need a higher dosage to be effective.  With some internal parasites, Fenbendazole (Panacur) and/or Levamisole may be more effective.  An example of this would be Round Worm, with which Panacur is said to address this issue much better.   You may want to ask Charles (Dr. Harrison) about these other medications.
         
         As you're aware this malady could indeed be Hexamita, even going by the various symptoms displayed, your store owner's recommendation of obtaining SeaChem's Metroplex was well advised.  If you can locate it, try finding SeaChem's Metronidazole.  It contains 100% metronidazole, whereas Metroplex contains only 70% metronidazole with 30% inert ingredients described by Seachem as "excipients."  Normally, Hexamita is largely a Cichlid disease, but I suppose most any fish exposed to it may contract it.
         
        I don't know how far into treating with MetroPlex you are, but it appears this was your first dosage and you shortly afterwards did a 25% PWC because you realized you still had PraziPro in the water.  If you want to continue treating with Metroplex (there's probably only one sure way of knowing what you're treating against, and that is to place a slide smear from one of the dead fish's intestines under a microscope), as would seem to be the proper choice (barring the possibility of Round Worm -- which is often seen exiting the anus -- and which you haven't mentioned), and as metronidazole is another medication not very water soluble, it's best to double the dosage.  Too, as this protozoan will still thrive up to 86 o F, it's preferable to boost the heater up to at least 87 o (or higher, depending on what your species will tolerate).  You haven't stated very much concerning your Angelfish, except for it having red in the fins.  As Angels are one of the first fish to contract Hexamita when exposed to it, I still have reservations as to this being the proper diagnosis, yet lots here appear to point to it.  That your Angelfish hasn't contracted Hexamita yet though, is not an indication this parasite isn't present.  This species (Angels) mainly becomes overwhelmed (gets sick) from Hexamita when stressed/exposed to higher levels of Nitrate -- which you don't maintain; a consistent manifestation of this disease in this fish is that it retreats into (facing into) a corner.  If this behavior is seen, this malady is definite.  
         
        KanaPlex (Kanamycin Sulfate) is one of the best -- if not THE best -- Gram-Negative Broad-Spectrum antibiotic available for treating many internal bacteria issues in fishes; it's highly absorbent internally (and has many external bacterial [and Fungal] uses).  But, I don't believe it has a use here.  While your issue may be fish TB, this disease is not very contagious to other fishes in the same aquarium so I'd tend to rule it out, since I see that many of your fish have (and had) this same problem now and in the past.             
         
        Ray
         
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56960 From: Amber Larr Date: 12/15/2015
        Subject: Re: Red lines at base of fins on SAEs!!!?
        Okay, so I came home to another cloudy tank...

        I dug out my water testing kit to give it another test and... realized my nitrite test has dissapeared from the rest of them. Sigh.

        I'm pretty sure at this point that it's not algae.

        One of the SAEs has died during the day. The other two are looking alright. They still have the marks but they aren't nearly as red or as big. I'm hoping that's a sign that the treatment is working.

        The angels are among the newest fish to the tank. I think I bought them back in the end of October. The newest member is the pleco, who had been in quarantine until just a few days ago.

        I'm going to look high and low for that bottle of nitrite test liquid, but if I don't have it I'll just have to stick with ammonia and nitrate.

        I guess it IS possible for the pleco's addition on Friday (after the water change) to have caused the min-cycle. It's not huge (3 inches) but isn't small either. I've just never had an issue with adding fish. But, then again, I normally only replace fish that die so the bioload usually stays the same...

        Sorry about my lack of information in my first message. It was late and I was worried. I hadn't really been thinking about everything.

        ~Amber



        On Tuesday, December 15, 2015 11:15 AM, "sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:




        Okay Amber,
         
        Thanks for filling us in on the rest of the story.  All's I can say is WOW.  You left out awful lot about your fishes' illness(es). Just for starters, there was no way to know that you've been battling this wasting away issue for nearly a year.  There's so much more here that was unknown to us, from your testing your water for Ammonia, Nitrite and Nitrate last Friday, BEFORE you did a 50% PWC, to this wasting problem itself and the history of many other previously unknown fishes that were not made aware of, all having similar problems.  The only issue you made known was that of some fish having red in their fins.  As for checking the water parameters today, while it can't hurt to know if there are any changes, that you knew what they were before you made the PWC's would have told you if anything was excessive.  The 30 ppm Nitrate is not excessive even though it could be more ideal -- and it indicates that the tank is cycling, except when the cycle is interrupted yet no PWC has been done; a residual reading will be obtained, not meaning very much as pertains to the cycle. 
         
        So to go back to last Friday, it's now clear that you've taken water parameter tests before doing anything else.  Your results do not indicate an elevated Ammonia value prior to making the large PWC, of course, now that you've thoroughly explained it; you have no appreciable Nitrite content either.  This would rule out the possibility of Hemorrhagic Septicemia.
         
        As for the cloudy look, most often this describes a whitish/grayish nitrifying bacteria bloom (more specifically Nitrosomonas and Nitrospira, as it's the ammonia that first spikes when a cycle is disrupted).  I have to assume now that this is a greenish cloudy condition, which was wasn't previously brought out, and which would indicate suspended algae.  OR, IS this cloudy condition greenish at all?  If it happens to be, then it IS suspended algae, a form that inhabits the water column and does not populate the aquarium's surfaces (plants, rocks, glass, etc.).  As such please know that Siamese Algae Eaters are useless in eliminating this as they can't take advantage of consuming it.  Algae Eaters feed on surfaces where other types of Algae grow.           
         
        With your use of PraziPro for two weeks and your fish not getting any better, this would seem to rule out Camallanus, Tapeworm, Digenetic Flukes, Flatworm and most other internal parasites.  Then too, as PraziPro is not very water soluble, its use as a treatment can sometimes depend on which form is used and may need a higher dosage to be effective.  With some internal parasites, Fenbendazole (Panacur) and/or Levamisole may be more effective.  An example of this would be Round Worm, with which Panacur is said to address this issue much better.   You may want to ask Charles (Dr. Harrison) about these other medications.
         
         As you're aware this malady could indeed be Hexamita, even going by the various symptoms displayed, your store owner's recommendation of obtaining SeaChem's Metroplex was well advised.  If you can locate it, try finding SeaChem's Metronidazole.  It contains 100% metronidazole, whereas Metroplex contains only 70% metronidazole with 30% inert ingredients described by Seachem as "excipients."  Normally, Hexamita is largely a Cichlid disease, but I suppose most any fish exposed to it may contract it.
         
        I don't know how far into treating with MetroPlex you are, but it appears this was your first dosage and you shortly afterwards did a 25% PWC because you realized you still had PraziPro in the water.  If you want to continue treating with Metroplex (there's probably only one sure way of knowing what you're treating against, and that is to place a slide smear from one of the dead fish's intestines under a microscope), as would seem to be the proper choice (barring the possibility of Round Worm -- which is often seen exiting the anus -- and which you haven't mentioned), and as metronidazole is another medication not very water soluble, it's best to double the dosage.  Too, as this protozoan will still thrive up to 86 o F, it's preferable to boost the heater up to at least 87 o (or higher, depending on what your species will tolerate).  You haven't stated very much concerning your Angelfish, except for it having red in the fins.  As Angels are one of the first fish to contract Hexamita when exposed to it, I still have reservations as to this being the proper diagnosis, yet lots here appear to point to it.  That your Angelfish hasn't contracted Hexamita yet though, is not an indication this parasite isn't present.  This species (Angels) mainly becomes overwhelmed (gets sick) from Hexamita when stressed/exposed to higher levels of Nitrate -- which you don't maintain; a consistent manifestation of this disease in this fish is that it retreats into (facing into) a corner.  If this behavior is seen, this malady is definite.  
         
        KanaPlex (Kanamycin Sulfate) is one of the best -- if not THE best -- Gram-Negative Broad-Spectrum antibiotic available for treating many internal bacteria issues in fishes; it's highly absorbent internally (and has many external bacterial [and Fungal] uses).  But, I don't believe it has a use here.  While your issue may be fish TB, this disease is not very contagious to other fishes in the same aquarium so I'd tend to rule it out, since I see that many of your fish have (and had) this same problem now and in the past.             
         
        Ray
         




        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56961 From: sevenspringss Date: 12/23/2015
        Subject: Re: Red lines at base of fins on SAEs!!!?
        Hi Amber,
         
        Have not heard back from you on any progress your fish may be showing -- if any.  With this last message of yours, it appeared that, while one of the SAE's died during the night, the other two were looking better.  As you haven't said much more, I'm hoping that this is a good sign and that things are getting back to normal, with all your fish being healthy again, at this time.  If not, please let us know if there's been a turn for the worst or just not that much more improvement after all.
         
        As for the symptoms of weight loss, reddening around the vent and red streaking in the fins, I received a short note from Dawn stating that these three manifestations can also be the result of liver malfunction/shutdown -- the possible causes for this being an excess, or lack of, a particular nutrient in the diet (caused by a less-quality food or lack of food variety), heavy metals, exposure to high nitrite and even including certain medications which can be harsh on some organs.  Hopefully though your present situation with your fishes is improving, but liver malfunction could have still be the reason for your fish showing these symptoms in the past -- going back to those first fish you mentioned dying on you and showing these symptoms.  Dawn wanted to post this and a lot more on the Group, but just didn't have time with being in the middle of Holiday preparations.  
         
        As for the possibility of missing a needed nutrient or two, Kent Marine products offers their Zoe vitamin supplement, which is said to be very good.  It can't hurt anything and just may help.
         
        Ray 
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56962 From: Amber Larr Date: 12/23/2015
        Subject: Re: Red lines at base of fins on SAEs!!!?
        Yeah, life definitely got in my way as well. Sorry about that...

        Let me see... Since the last update I have lost the last two SAEs, my black angelfish, and two guppies. I've started them on a different food already and am currently focusing them on thawed frozen blood worms. I had read something in the past that blood worms helped another person with tiger barbs who showed similar symptoms but no real visible cause. I haven't lost any fish in the past two days, well not from this tank at least.

        The food I was feeding them wasn't high quality at all. It's all gone now so I had to change it. I don't know where the food came from, but it's just what I had. I won't be buying it again for sure.

        Considering that the leopard danios have improved greatly on their diet of daphnia and blood worms I'm hoping it'll be the solution.

        I just did a 30% water change earlier this morning. All of the levels tested normal. 0 ammonia and nitrite and nitrate still low. The cloudiness has cleared up nicely. I'm still not 100% sure it was algae.

        My last angelfish isn't being as active as it could be. I won't be surprised it it dies.

        I've pretty much decided that I'll keep trying but if they die I'm going to clean the whole tank and start over. I won't be adding any more fish to it until they are all better.

        All fish are eating, I make sure of that every day when I feed them. Each fish gets at least one worm at night and I also give them some Tetra Sinking Wafers in the morning to help keep their diet balanced. They are also munching on the algae wafferes, what's left of them after the pleco gets done at least, which should help supplement the diet of the molly and guppies.

        Again, sorry I left for a while. Someone close to me passed away and I'm still trying to get back on track.

        Amber




        On Wednesday, December 23, 2015 11:29 AM, "sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:




        Hi Amber,
         
        Have not heard back from you on any progress your fish may be showing -- if any.  With this last message of yours, it appeared that, while one of the SAE's died during the night, the other two were looking better.  As you haven't said much more, I'm hoping that this is a good sign and that things are getting back to normal, with all your fish being healthy again, at this time.  If not, please let us know if there's been a turn for the worst or just not that much more improvement after all.
         
        As for the symptoms of weight loss, reddening around the vent and red streaking in the fins, I received a short note from Dawn stating that these three manifestations can also be the result of liver malfunction/shutdown -- the possible causes for this being an excess, or lack of, a particular nutrient in the diet (caused by a less-quality food or lack of food variety), heavy metals, exposure to high nitrite and even including certain medications which can be harsh on some organs.  Hopefully though your present situation with your fishes is improving, but liver malfunction could have still be the reason for your fish showing these symptoms in the past -- going back to those first fish you mentioned dying on you and showing these symptoms.  Dawn wanted to post this and a lot more on the Group, but just didn't have time with being in the middle of Holiday preparations.  
         
        As for the possibility of missing a needed nutrient or two, Kent Marine products offers their Zoe vitamin supplement, which is said to be very good.  It can't hurt anything and just may help.
         
        Ray 




        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56963 From: sevenspringss Date: 12/24/2015
        Subject: Re: Seasons Greetings
         
        Wishing All a Very Merry Christmas !
         
         
         
        Ray
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56964 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 12/25/2015
        Subject: Re: Seasons Greetings

        Thank you Ray & a belated Merry Christmas from me to everyone on the forum!

         John<o)))<

        On 24 December 2015 at 17:51 "sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

         

         

         
        Wishing All a Very Merry Christmas !
         
         
         
        Ray

         


         


         

        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56965 From: noura_taweel Date: 12/26/2015
        Subject: Guppy Fry
        The speed of guppy fry growth when released in a 20G tank is INSANE!!

        I couldn't catch 2 out of 14 guppy fry to put in the brooder... To my surprise, not only they survived from being eaten by their parents, but they also grew to twice the size of their siblings!
        I released all fry a week ago and they are growing like weeds..!!

        Noura
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56966 From: noura_taweel Date: 12/26/2015
        Subject: Re: Seasons Greetings

        Merry Christmas and Happy New Year :)
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56967 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 12/26/2015
        Subject: Re: Guppy Fry

        That's great news Noura, you must have the ideal conditions in that tank-well done. I've been similarly impressed with the growth of my two baby Goldfish rescued this year. In just a few months they've both more than doubled in size-previously living in ridiculously tiny tanks so the growth spurt is making up for lost time. Hope everything is ok-wishing you a very peaceful New Year.

         John<o)))<

        On 26 December 2015 at 22:58 "n-ocean@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

         

        The speed of guppy fry growth when released in a 20G tank is INSANE!!

        I couldn't catch 2 out of 14 guppy fry to put in the brooder... To my surprise, not only they survived from being eaten by their parents, but they also grew to twice the size of their siblings!
        I released all fry a week ago and they are growing like weeds..!!

        Noura


         


         

        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56968 From: Noura T. Date: 12/27/2015
        Subject: Re: Guppy Fry

        Thank you John J

        Same warm wishes to everyone reading this.

         

        Noura

         

        From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
        Sent: 27 كانون الأول, 2015 04:14 ص
        To: aquaticlife
        Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Guppy Fry

         

         

        That's great news Noura, you must have the ideal conditions in that tank-well done. I've been similarly impressed with the growth of my two baby Goldfish rescued this year. In just a few months they've both more than doubled in size-previously living in ridiculously tiny tanks so the growth spurt is making up for lost time. Hope everything is ok-wishing you a very peaceful New Year.

         John<o)))<

        On 26 December 2015 at 22:58 "n-ocean@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

         

        The speed of guppy fry growth when released in a 20G tank is INSANE!!

        I couldn't catch 2 out of 14 guppy fry to put in the brooder... To my surprise, not only they survived from being eaten by their parents, but they also grew to twice the size of their siblings!
        I released all fry a week ago and they are growing like weeds..!!

        Noura


         


         

        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56969 From: sevenspringss Date: 12/31/2015
        Subject: Re: Greetings & Salutations
         
         
        TO ALL
         
        A VERY HAPPY, HEALTHY
         
        AND PROSPEROUS
         
        NEW YEAR !!!
         
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56970 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 12/31/2015
        Subject: Re: Greetings & Salutations

        Thanks Ray,

         I'll second that!

         John<o)))<

        On 31 December 2015 at 17:34 "sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

         

         

         
         
        TO ALL
         
        A VERY HAPPY, HEALTHY
         
        AND PROSPEROUS
         
        NEW YEAR !!!
         

         


         


         

        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56971 From: Angela Cancilla Herschel Date: 1/25/2016
        Subject: I have been hacked - DO NOT subject; re:

        Ciao, Angela Cancilla Herschel,   CPBC ,
        California

        Member :   IAATE  -  IAABC

        Being Kind is more important ...than being important. ~
        California Wildlife Center, volunteer  ~

        www.cawildlife.org

        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56972 From: Harry Perry Date: 1/25/2016
        Subject: Re: I have been hacked - DO NOT subject; re:
        Just change your e-mail password.
        --------------------------------------------
        On Mon, 1/25/16, Angela Cancilla Herschel angelasfeathers@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

        Subject: [AquaticLife] I have been hacked - DO NOT subject; re:
        To: "Angela Cancilla Herschel" <angelasfeathers@...>
        Date: Monday, January 25, 2016, 7:56 PM


         










        Ciao, Angela Cancilla
        Herschel,   CPBC ,
        California

        Member :  
        IAATE  -  IAABC


        Being Kind is more important ...than
        being important. ~
        California
        Wildlife Center, volunteer  ~
        www.cawildlife.org













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        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56973 From: Angela Cancilla Herschel Date: 1/27/2016
        Subject: Genetics rewrites story of fish species trapped in single hole

        Genetics rewrites story of fish species trapped in single hole

        DNA work shows Devils Hole pupfish might have occasionally mingled with relatives.



        [http://www.nature.com/news/genetics-rewrites-story-of-fish-species-trapped-in-single-hole-1.19251?WT.mc_id=FBK_NatureNews]

        Ciao, Angela Cancilla Herschel,   CPBC ,
        California

        Member :   IAATE  -  IAABC

        Being Kind is more important ...than being important. ~
        California Wildlife Center, volunteer  ~

        www.cawildlife.org

        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56974 From: Andy Mills Date: 1/30/2016
        Subject: Strange pleco behaviour
        I've had an albino sailfin pleco since last May. Ever since I've had
        him he spends almost all the time just lying on the gravel near the
        front of the tank, although there are plenty of hiding places. He
        sometimes goes into a pipe or something but most of the time just lies
        there. I was concerned that he wasn't eating because I never really see
        him moving, even when food goes in the tank. However while I was
        changing some water today I had a good look at the fish and his stomach
        doesn't appear to be sunken or anything. I do put food in at night when
        the light goes off so I guess he must be feeding then. I know catfish
        aren't the most active of fish but this one takes it to a new level, all
        the other plecos I've had in the past have at least come to life at food
        time, even if not very active at other times. I had a huge normal
        coloured sailfin until a couple of years ago when I had a tank leak
        disaster and he had to be re-homed. I had that fish for around 17 years
        and he was always relatively active. I'm just wondering really, are the
        albinos even less active than the normal coloured ones or is this one
        just extra lazy. Am slightly less worried now I'm pretty sure he must
        be eating but still find it strange that he really hardly seems to move
        around at all and also doesn't really seem to hide much, just lies in
        more or less the same place all the time. This isn't new behaviour,
        he's acted like this since I got him which, as I say, was about 8 months
        ago.
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56975 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/30/2016
        Subject: Re: Strange pleco behaviour
        Andy,
         
        While most all catfish are nocturnal in their behavior, many will adapt to being active during daylight hours.  Your normal Sailfin Catfish from several years ago appears to be an example of this.  Now, albinos in general -- of any species -- don't appreciate strong light since they have no pigment in their eyes to shield them from this.  Your Albino Sailfin Cat would be expected not to be that active during the day and would tend to be most active at night reverting to normal catfish behavior, never having been comfortable with the harsh (to him) light of daytime.  Good you're also feeding at night when the lights go off, as that's the time he's most likely feeding.  That you've had it for 8 months, and without him having a sunken stomach appearance, would indicate he's doing well.  If he were starving he's most likely be dead by now.  I would expect he'd be in hiding more often during the day though, but apparently the lights are being tolerated to some extent.  I doubt if this specimen is lazier than other Sailfin Catfish; it's just that bright light doesn't suit him that well (with him being an albino).  He undoubtedly feeds more by smell (& touch) too, as albino's vision tends to be poor.  Just one other reason why he doesn't see any advantage in searching for food when the tank lights are on. 
         
        Ray
         
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56976 From: andy_peltier Date: 2/2/2016
        Subject: Cloudy slime

        Hi all I have got this cloudy slime growing in my tank and I have never seen anything like it. I do water changes and vacum it out but just keeps coming back. What is is and how do you get rid of it. My water test fine.


         Andy

        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56977 From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c Date: 2/2/2016
        Subject: Re: Strange pleco behaviour
        I will 2nd everything Ray has said and remind that every fish has its own individual personality, which plays a part in their everyday behaviors.  Also remember that to them, laying still like that, even if in plain sight, is a form of self defense.  If they are still they are often seen as part of the environment rather than food for a predator.  This instinct is stronger in albinos in many situations.  Ever heard the saying, "hiding in plain sight"? 

        Something else I have observed in pleco behavior over the years is that when you feed at night there is no need for them to be actively foraging for food during the day, so they spend their light/day hours resting, conserving energy.  Remember that moving around/activity uses energy that must somehow be replenished.  If there are other fish in the tank then your pleco may simply be feeding at the most opportune time for him/her. 

        Overall, if the fish appears to be physically healthy and well fed, I wouldn't be concerned.

        Dawn
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56978 From: Angela Cancilla Herschel Date: 2/4/2016
        Subject: Koi surgery
        Koi abdominal surgery 

        [http://youtu.be/rYqkpZfbd6I]


        Ciao, Angela Cancilla Herschel, CPBC;   
        California
        Member:  IAABC - IAATE

        Being kind is more important ..than being important. ~

        California Wildlife Center,volunteer ~
        www.cawildlife.org

        sent from my iPhone 
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56979 From: Angela Cancilla Herschel Date: 2/22/2016
        Subject: *Man Places Upside Down Fish Tank In His Koi Pond so they could have
        German man places Upside down tower tank inside his koi pond so his fish have a view & added enrichment .

        [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WlF5U_PGTk]
        Ciao, Angela Cancilla Herschel,   CPBC ,
        California

        Member :   IAATE  -  IAABC

        Being Kind is more important ...than being important. ~
        California Wildlife Center, volunteer  ~

        www.cawildlife.org

        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56980 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 2/22/2016
        Subject: Re: *Man Places Upside Down Fish Tank In His Koi Pond so they could

        Hi Angela,

         That's amazing, best one I've seen & it shows how curious fish are, they like the view. I like the garden seat so man & fish can watch each other eye to eye! If I had a garden I would definately install one of these in my pond.

         John<o)))<

        On 22 February 2016 at 22:00 "Angela Cancilla Herschel angelasfeathers@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

         

         

        German man places Upside down tower tank inside his koi pond so his fish have a view & added enrichment .

        [ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WlF5U_PGTk]
        Ciao, Angela Cancilla Herschel , CPBC ,
        California

        Member : IAATE - IAABC

        Being Kind is more important ...than being important. ~
        California Wildlife Center, volunteer ~

        www.cawildlife.org

         


         


         

        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56981 From: Angela Cancilla Herschel Date: 3/18/2016
        Subject: My Beta has "ick" ?
        I just saw a new white spot on my Beta ....is this what is called ick?
        I am ready to order it from amazon but not sure what is the best to get ? Can you advise me guys? Right now it's a little bigger than pin size on his back on his dorsal fin ....and growing fast as it looks bigger each time I look at him.
        HELP!

        Ciao, Angela Cancilla Herschel, CPBC;   
        California
        Member:  IAABC - IAATE

        Being kind is more important ..than being important. ~

        California Wildlife Center,volunteer ~
        www.cawildlife.org

        sent from my iPhone 
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56982 From: Amber Larr Date: 3/18/2016
        Subject: Re: My Beta has "ick" ?
        Ick doesn't grow...It looks like salt grains. Are you sure it isn't a fungus?

        Do you have a picture of him?

        Treating ick is easy. Just turn your heater up to 86 degrees. Do 1/2 water changes and gravel vacuums about every 3 days. Then after 14 days you're good and the fish should be better.

        Fungus is a little different. The best thing to do is the 1/2 water changes every 3 days and use a fungus medication. I've heard that Jungle Fungus Eliminator is often recommend for fungus in bettas.

        Fungus is generally a bad water quality thing.
        Ick is something your fish would have had before you bought it. When healthy, a fish can fight off the paraiste and it won't get too much out of control. But when stressed it has a better chance of killing the fish. .



        On Friday, March 18, 2016 8:12 PM, "Angela Cancilla Herschel angelasfeathers@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:




        I just saw a new white spot on my Beta ....is this what is called ick?
        I am ready to order it from amazon but not sure what is the best to get ? Can you advise me guys? Right now it's a little bigger than pin size on his back on his dorsal fin ....and growing fast as it looks bigger each time I look at him.
        HELP!

        Ciao, Angela Cancilla Herschel, CPBC;   
        California
        Member:  IAABC - IAATE

        Being kind is more important ..than being important. ~

        California Wildlife Center,volunteer ~
        www.cawildlife.org

        sent from my iPhone 




        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56983 From: Angela Cancilla Herschel Date: 3/19/2016
        Subject: Betta has Fungus - My Beta has "ick" ?
        I posted on facebook's, Fox Cites Fish Club,  and shared photos and it is a fungus .
        I changed the water every week but I should probably have worked on stirring the substrate more.
        I ordered, Fungus Clear, by Jungle;

        Jungle TB630W Tank Buddies Fungus Clear Tablets, 8-Count 

        [https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0002561WY/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_awd_ngx7wbZH7FP78]


        >Ick doesn't grow...It looks like salt grains. Are you sure it isn't a fungus? 

        Do you have a picture of him? 

        Treating ick is easy. Just turn your heater up to 86 degrees. Do 1/2 water changes and gravel vacuums about every 3 days. Then after 14 days you're good and the fish should be better. 

        Fungus is a little different. The best thing to do is the 1/2 water changes every 3 days and use a fungus medication. I've heard that Jungle Fungus Eliminator is often recommend for fungus in bettas. 

        Fungus is generally a bad water quality thing. 
        Ick is something your fish would have had before you bought it. When healthy, a fish can fight off the paraiste and it won't get too much out of control. But when stressed it has a better chance of killing the fish. . 









        Ciao, Angela Cancilla Herschel, CPBC;   
        California
        Member:  IAABC - IAATE

        Being kind is more important ..than being important. ~

        California Wildlife Center,volunteer ~
        www.cawildlife.org

        sent from my iPhone 
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56984 From: Amber Larr Date: 3/19/2016
        Subject: Re: Betta has Fungus - My Beta has "ick" ?
        Yeah, the gravel can get pretty nasty for sure. In my breeding tanks I will use an air hose to clean the bottom daily (as long as the fry are big enough to handle water changes and not get sucked up, that is) and in my show tanks I use a gravel vacuum weekly. A gravel vacuum does wonders, really. It's well worth the money to get one. 
        ~Amber

        On Saturday, March 19, 2016 11:47 AM, "Angela Cancilla Herschel angelasfeathers@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


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        I posted on facebook's, Fox Cites Fish Club,  and shared photos and it is a fungus .I changed the water every week but I should probably have worked on stirring the substrate more.I ordered, Fungus Clear, by Jungle;
        Jungle TB630W Tank Buddies Fungus Clear Tablets, 8-Count 
        [https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0002561WY/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_awd_ngx7wbZH7FP78%5d










        Ciao, Angela Cancilla Herschel, CPBC;   CaliforniaMember:  IAABC - IAATE
        Being kind is more important ..than being important. ~
        California Wildlife Center,volunteer ~
        www.cawildlife.org
        sent from my iPhone 





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56985 From: Angela Cancilla Herschel Date: 3/19/2016
        Subject: Betta has Fungus - My Beta has "ick" ?
        I think I know how this happened when  another water conditioner was used (after the water turned cloudy in less than two days ) my daughter used it and it had Aloe Vera  and Green Tea Extract in it 
        by , API . 
        ...I could be wrong but I threw it out right away .
        I was am am again using Aqueon, BettaBowl Plus.  What a difference !

        >posted on facebook's, Fox Cites Fish Club,  and shared photos and it is a fungus .
        I changed the water every week but I should probably have worked on stirring the substrate more.
        I ordered, Fungus Clear, by Jungle;

        Jungle TB630W Tank Buddies Fungus Clear Tablets, 8-Count 

        [https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0002561WY/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_awd_ngx7wbZH7FP78]


        >Ick doesn't grow...It looks like salt grains. Are you sure it isn't a fungus? 

        Do you have a picture of him? 

        Treating ick is easy. Just turn your heater up to 86 degrees. Do 1/2 water changes and gravel vacuums about every 3 days. Then after 14 days you're good and the fish should be better. 

        Fungus is a little different. The best thing to do is the 1/2 water changes every 3 days and use a fungus medication. I've heard that Jungle Fungus Eliminator is often recommend for fungus in bettas. 

        Fungus is generally a bad water quality thing. 
        Ick is something your fish would have had before you bought it. When healthy, a fish can fight off the paraiste and it won't get too much out of control. But when stressed it has a better chance.

        Ciao, Angela Cancilla Herschel, CPBC;   
        California
        Member:  IAABC - IAATE

        Being kind is more important ..than being important. ~

        California Wildlife Center,volunteer ~
        www.cawildlife.org

        sent from my iPhone 
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56986 From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: 4/2/2016
        Subject: Anyone here have experinece with raising killifish eggs???
        The following AquaticLife poll is now closed. Here are the final results


        For more information about this group, please visit https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/AquaticLife

        For help with Yahoo!Groups, please visit http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/forms/general.html
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56987 From: sevenspringss Date: 4/2/2016
        Subject: Re: Anyone here have experinece with raising killifish eggs???
        MEMBERS:  Please note that this "pole" was NEVER open.  This is the first message (below) on this Group pertaining to any Killifish poll.  Almost looks like spam except for it being related to tropical fish.  I would not open ANY of the links within this message, to be sure of not getting anything on your computer that you don't want.  Looks possibly like < love_animals07 > may be out phishing. 
         
        Ray -- Moderator
         
         
         
         In a message dated 4/2/2016 4:05:34 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
         

        The following AquaticLife poll is now closed. Here are the final results


        For more information about this group, please visit https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/AquaticLife

        For help with Yahoo!Groups, please visit http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/forms/general.html

         
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56988 From: hughjazzoreface Date: 5/20/2016
        Subject: Air problem

        Hi all. I'm running a long air line that bratches off with 2 outlets. I have a wrong way water blocker installed too. Problem is when I put either of the separated air lines in the tank the air stops flowing once the tube is 1cm deep. It's quite bizarre. Anyone know what's going on?

        Thanks,

        Robert

        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56989 From: deenerzz Date: 5/20/2016
        Subject: Re: Air problem
        My first thought is the pump is not strong enough.

        What happens if you remove the 2 outlets and just try with one?

        What happens if you remove the one way valve?

        Mike


        -----Original Message-----
        From: hughjazzoreface@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
        To: AquaticLife <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Fri, May 20, 2016 11:43 pm
        Subject: [AquaticLife] Air problem

         
        Hi all. I'm running a long air line that bratches off with 2 outlets. I have a wrong way water blocker installed too. Problem is when I put either of the separated air lines in the tank the air stops flowing once the tube is 1cm deep. It's quite bizarre. Anyone know what's going on?
        Thanks,
        Robert
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56990 From: sevenspringss Date: 5/21/2016
        Subject: Re: Air problem
        Hello Robert,
         
        Yes, this appears to be quite unusual.  My first thought is that your air pump may be becoming very weak.  But then too, the small I.D. aquarium air line is very restrictive, especially the longer its length.  Just how long is your 'long air line?"  Also, should I assume that it branches off only at the very (opposite) end of your length of single air line?  Have you tried reversing (turning it around) the check valve?  Have you tried temporarily removing the check valve.  Have you tried immersing both of the two separated air lines at the same time, an equal distance below the water surface?  If so, how deep?  Are you just using a "Y" fitting to split the air flow into these two outlets?  Or, are you using an air control valve?  If you're using an air valve, what type are you using (one with just 1 controlled outlet with the other outlet uncontrolled -- or, one with 2 controlled outlets with the other outlet uncontrolled)?  By "controlled," I mean the outlet that on a right angle to the inlet and can be completely shut off by turning the air control knob.  By "uncontrolled," I mean the outlet directly in line with the inlet and which isn't controlled by the knob.  What kind of air pump do you have (and how old is it)?  One other thing, is there anything (like an airstone, etc.) on the end of either of the branched air lines when you submerge them 1 cm deep?
         
        Ray 
         
         
        In a message dated 5/21/2016 2:43:52 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
         

        Hi all. I'm running a long air line that bratches off with 2 outlets. I have a wrong way water blocker installed too. Problem is when I put either of the separated air lines in the tank the air stops flowing once the tube is 1cm deep. It's quite bizarre. Anyone know what's going on?

        Thanks,

        Robert

         
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56991 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 5/21/2016
        Subject: Re: Air problem

        Hi Robert,

         I know what you are talking about because I've experienced this before when running multiple air stones from uncontrolled outlets on ponds. There is sometimes an imbalance in pressure between each line if they are not the same length, or have identical air stones at equal depths. Are both of your airlines the same length from the junction & are both air stones identical & at the same depth? Before you do anything else try swapping the air stones around & see if the problem still persists-at lest then you will identify if the problem is the stone or the line.

         John<o)))<

        On 21 May 2016 at 08:08 "sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

         

         

        Hello Robert,
         
        Yes, this appears to be quite unusual.  My first thought is that your air pump may be becoming very weak.  But then too, the small I.D. aquarium air line is very restrictive, especially the longer its length.  Just how long is your 'long air line?"  Also, should I assume that it branches off only at the very (opposite) end of your length of single air line?  Have you tried reversing (turning it around) the check valve?  Have you tried temporarily removing the check valve.  Have you tried immersing both of the two separated air lines at the same time, an equal distance below the water surface?  If so, how deep?  Are you just using a "Y" fitting to split the air flow into these two outlets?  Or, are you using an air control valve?  If you're using an air valve, what type are you using (one with just 1 controlled outlet with the other outlet uncontrolled -- or, one with 2 controlled outlets with the other outlet uncontrolled)?  By "controlled," I mean the outlet that on a right angle to the inlet and can be completely shut off by turning the air control knob.  By "uncontrolled," I mean the outlet directly in line with the inlet and which isn't controlled by the knob.  What kind of air pump do you have (and how old is it)?  One other thing, is there anything (like an airstone, etc.) on the end of either of the branched air lines when you submerge them 1 cm deep?
         
        Ray 
         
         
        In a message dated 5/21/2016 2:43:52 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
         

         

        Hi all. I'm running a long air line that bratches off with 2 outlets. I have a wrong way water blocker installed too. Problem is when I put either of the separated air lines in the tank the air stops flowing once the tube is 1cm deep. It's quite bizarre. Anyone know what's going on?

        Thanks,

        Robert

         

         
         

         


         


         

        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56992 From: Andy Mills Date: 6/11/2016
        Subject: Hydra filters
        Hi, just wondering if anyone else has been using these relatively new
        filters. I got a couple last year and have found them pretty good,
        almost all the information I read about them was fairly positive so I
        decided to try them out. They certainly seem more efficient than the
        standard internal filter. Here's a page about them if anyone wants a
        look, there are also some youtube videos available if anyone wants to
        see them actually working.

        http://www.arofanatics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=514288
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56993 From: ptimlin Date: 6/12/2016
        Subject: Re: Hydra filters
        Well looking at the sales literature, it looks like your basic fancy powerhead with a filter cartridge. And I assume the cartridge is filled with standard filtering materials such as activated carbon. So I guess my question would be what is different about this internal filter than many of the other very similar products by Fluval, Whisper, Ovation, and the like?

        Also is this a UK only product? I am not seeing it available from USA vendors. 

        Patrick
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56994 From: Angela Cancilla Herschel Date: 6/12/2016
        Subject: Fish can recognize human faces.
        Evidence shows fish  can recognize human faces .



        Ciao, Angela Cancilla Herschel, CPBC;   
        Member:  IAABC - IAATE - WPT
        Southern California

        Being kind is more important ..than being important. ~

        California Wildlife Center,volunteer ~
        www.cawildlife.org

        sent from my iPhone 
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56995 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 6/12/2016
        Subject: Re: Fish can recognize human faces.

        Hi Angela,

         A most interesting read including the links within the article [ & the links within the links!!]-thanks. It really is a shame that fish are not afforded the same respect as land animals when it comes to humane treatment but I think just about everyone on this forum already realises how intelligent these creatures are. The section on learned behaviour was particularly familiar to me-my two most recent fish quickly learnt from the fish already in the tank that it was quite safe to approach my hand at feeding time-so much so that one took a pellet off me just two days after arriving.

         John<o)))<

        On 12 June 2016 at 20:29 "Angela Cancilla Herschel angelasfeathers@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

         

         

        Evidence shows fish  can recognize human faces .



        Ciao, Angela Cancilla Herschel, CPBC;   
        Member:  IAABC - IAATE - WPT
        Southern California

        Being kind is more important ..than being important. ~

        California Wildlife Center,volunteer ~
        www.cawildlife.org

        sent from my iPhone 

         


         


         

        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56996 From: deenerzz Date: 6/12/2016
        Subject: Re: Fish can recognize human faces.

        My Oscars and my Uaru could recognize different people. 

        Mike

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Angela Cancilla Herschel angelasfeathers@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
        To: Angela Cancilla Herschel <angelasfeathers@...>
        Sent: Sun, Jun 12, 2016 12:29 pm
        Subject: [AquaticLife] Fish can recognize human faces.

         
        Evidence shows fish  can recognize human faces .



        Ciao, Angela Cancilla Herschel, CPBC;   
        Member:  IAABC - IAATE - WPT
        Southern California

        Being kind is more important ..than being important. ~

        California Wildlife Center,volunteer ~
        www.cawildlife.org

        sent from my iPhone 
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56997 From: Noura T. Date: 6/14/2016
        Subject: Re: Fish can recognize human faces.

        I always thought that my Clown fish and Angelfish “danced” for food only when I stood in front of them, and not when the other 4 members of my family did. But I thought they recognized me based on my height J

         

        Noura

         

        From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
        Sent: 13 حزيران, 2016 03:28 ص
        To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Fish can recognize human faces.

         

         


        My Oscars and my Uaru could recognize different people. 

         

        Mike

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Angela Cancilla Herschel angelasfeathers@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
        To: Angela Cancilla Herschel <angelasfeathers@...>
        Sent: Sun, Jun 12, 2016 12:29 pm
        Subject: [AquaticLife] Fish can recognize human faces.

         

        Evidence shows fish  can recognize human faces .

         

         

        Ciao, Angela Cancilla Herschel, CPBC;   

        Member:  IAABC - IAATE - WPT

        Southern California

         

        Being kind is more important ..than being important. ~

         

        California Wildlife Center,volunteer ~
        www.cawildlife.org

         

        sent from my iPhone 

        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56998 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 6/14/2016
        Subject: Re: Fish can recognize human faces.

        Hi Noura,

         I'd not heard height quoted before as a familiar reference point for fish although it does tie in with something I heard ages ago that they recognise us from our outline/silhouette but it would seem they recoginse us in just the same way as we recognise one-another. Always good to hear from you Noura-hoping everything is going ok.

         John<o)))<


        On 14 June 2016 at 13:21 "'Noura T.' n-ocean@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

         

         

        I always thought that my Clown fish and Angelfish “danced” for food only when I stood in front of them, and not when the other 4 members of my family did. But I thought they recognized me based on my height J

         

        Noura

         

        From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
        Sent: 13 حزيران, 2016 03:28 ص
        To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Fish can recognize human faces.

         

         


        My Oscars and my Uaru could recognize different people. 

         

        Mike

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Angela Cancilla Herschel angelasfeathers@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
        To: Angela Cancilla Herschel <angelasfeathers@...>
        Sent: Sun, Jun 12, 2016 12:29 pm
        Subject: [AquaticLife] Fish can recognize human faces.

         

        Evidence shows fish  can recognize human faces .

         

         

        Ciao, Angela Cancilla Herschel, CPBC;   

        Member:  IAABC - IAATE - WPT

        Southern California

         

        Being kind is more important ..than being important. ~

         

        California Wildlife Center,volunteer ~
        www.cawildlife.org

         

        sent from my iPhone 

         

         


         


         

        Group: AquaticLife Message: 56999 From: sevenspringss Date: 6/14/2016
        Subject: Re: Fish can recognize human faces.
        Hi Everyone,
         
        I tend to hesitate in going along with fish distinguishing faces when recognizing their owner/feeder, although this may play into their recognition of us.  Still, as we recognize each other by our faces, I'm not at all sure fish can recognize us in the same manner, although our expressions just may be different enough from other people's expressions for fish to notice this difference.  We usually can't differentiate one fish from another (of the same species) though, just by sight as they all look similar.  Likewise, we can't tell one of the same animal from another, unless it's a man-made variety as in dogs (or cats).  It's possible however, that height may play some roll in this, but then, if I step up on a small stand I have to reach into a high tank to clean it, my fish in the surrounding tanks still seem to recognize me even though I suddenly get much taller.  I do believe though, that our actions play a large part of our fish recognizing us for who we are.  We may not be aware of all of our subtle actions, but fish notice this behavior unique only to us, when compared to other people in the same room -- or even when we're by ourselves in that room.  As we're often the only person they see, especially around feeding time, they expect only to see us, and when other people are with us they can single us out as we're what they look for when expecting to get fed (which is all the time < g >).  They're always looking for us to feed them. 
         
        Ray  
         
         
        In a message dated 6/14/2016 3:09:24 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
         

        Hi Noura,

         I'd not heard height quoted before as a familiar reference point for fish although it does tie in with something I heard ages ago that they recognise us from our outline/silhouette but it would seem they recoginse us in just the same way as we recognise one-another. Always good to hear from you Noura-hoping everything is going ok.

         John<o)))<


        On 14 June 2016 at 13:21 "'Noura T.' n-ocean@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

         


         

        I always thought that my Clown fish and Angelfish “danced” for food only when I stood in front of them, and not when the other 4 members of my family did. But I thought they recognized me based on my height J

         

        Noura

         

        From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
        Sent: 13 حزيران, 2016 03:28 ص
        To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Fish can recognize human faces.

         

         


        My Oscars and my Uaru could recognize different people. 

         

        Mike

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Angela Cancilla Herschel angelasfeathers@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
        To: Angela Cancilla Herschel <angelasfeathers@...>
        Sent: Sun, Jun 12, 2016 12:29 pm
        Subject: [AquaticLife] Fish can recognize human faces.

         

        Evidence shows fish  can recognize human faces .

         

         

        Ciao, Angela Cancilla Herschel, CPBC;   

        Member:  IAABC - IAATE - WPT

        Southern California

         

        Being kind is more important ..than being important. ~

         

        California Wildlife Center,volunteer ~
        www.cawildlife.org

         

        sent from my iPhone 


         


         


         


         

         
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 57000 From: Angela Cancilla Herschel Date: 6/15/2016
        Subject: Re: Fish can recognize human faces.

        I wish I could remember his name ...but in San Francisco years ago the head feeder at their wonderful Aquarium, told me that no matter what hat he had on or jacket shirt that he'd put on as a test ....they always knew it was him ....and if a stranger took his spot even dressed in the same outfit ...they knew it wasn't him and did not go near without great trepidation and that many would shy away and hide .
         When it was him .....they reacted and it was a party!


        >Hi Everyone,

        I tend to hesitate in going along with fish distinguishing faces when  
        recognizing their owner/feeder, although this may play into their recognition of 
        us. Still, as we recognize each other by our faces, I'm not at all sure  
        fish can recognize us in the same manner, although our expressions just may 
        be different enough from other people's expressions for fish to notice this 
        difference. We usually can't differentiate one fish from another (of the 
        same species) though, just by sight as they all look similar. Likewise, 
        we can't tell one of the same animal from another, unless it's a man-made 
        variety as in dogs (or cats). It's possible however, that height may play 
        some roll in this, but then, if I step up on a small stand I have to reach 
        into a high tank to clean it, my fish in the surrounding tanks still seem to 
        recognize me even though I suddenly get much taller. I do believe though, 
        that our actions play a large part of our fish recognizing us for who we 
        are. We may not be aware of all of our subtle actions, but fish notice this 
        behavior unique only to us, when compared to other people in the same room 
        -- or even when we're by ourselves in that room. As we're often the only 
        person they see, especially around feeding time, they expect only to see us, 
        and when other people are with us they can single us out as we're what 
        they look for when expecting to get fed (which is all the time < g >).  
        They're always looking for us to feed them.  

        Ray 

        Ciao, Angela Cancilla Herschel, CPBC;   
        Member:  IAABC - IAATE - WPT
        Southern California

        Being kind is more important ..than being important. ~

        California Wildlife Center,volunteer ~
        www.cawildlife.org

        sent from my iPhone 
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 57001 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 6/16/2016
        Subject: Re: Fish can recognize human faces.

        Hi Ray,

         A fascinating subject & not one I've given that much thought to either over the years, I just took it for granted that fish recognised us for whatever reason & left it at that. Your saying they recognise our mannerisms rather than our faces makes a lot of sense as does the fact that they recognise us whatever height we are-my fish come straight over to me even when I am standing on a stool to reach the UV system at the back of the tank when I am at least 12" taller to them than usual.  Of course it is all based around food!

         John<o)))<

        On 14 June 2016 at 20:44 "sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

         

         

        Hi Everyone,
         
        I tend to hesitate in going along with fish distinguishing faces when recognizing their owner/feeder, although this may play into their recognition of us.  Still, as we recognize each other by our faces, I'm not at all sure fish can recognize us in the same manner, although our expressions just may be different enough from other people's expressions for fish to notice this difference.  We usually can't differentiate one fish from another (of the same species) though, just by sight as they all look similar.  Likewise, we can't tell one of the same animal from another, unless it's a man-made variety as in dogs (or cats).  It's possible however, that height may play some roll in this, but then, if I step up on a small stand I have to reach into a high tank to clean it, my fish in the surrounding tanks still seem to recognize me even though I suddenly get much taller.  I do believe though, that our actions play a large part of our fish recognizing us for who we are.  We may not be aware of all of our subtle actions, but fish notice this behavior unique only to us, when compared to other people in the same room -- or even when we're by ourselves in that room.  As we're often the only person they see, especially around feeding time, they expect only to see us, and when other people are with us they can single us out as we're what they look for when expecting to get fed (which is all the time < g >).  They're always looking for us to feed them. 
         
        Ray  
         
         
        In a message dated 6/14/2016 3:09:24 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
         

         

        Hi Noura,

         I'd not heard height quoted before as a familiar reference point for fish although it does tie in with something I heard ages ago that they recognise us from our outline/silhouette but it would seem they recoginse us in just the same way as we recognise one-another. Always good to hear from you Noura-hoping everything is going ok.

         John<o)))<


        On 14 June 2016 at 13:21 "'Noura T.' n-ocean@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

         


         

        I always thought that my Clown fish and Angelfish “danced” for food only when I stood in front of them, and not when the other 4 members of my family did. But I thought they recognized me based on my height J

         

        Noura

         

        From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
        Sent: 13 حزيران, 2016 03:28 ص
        To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Fish can recognize human faces.

         

         


        My Oscars and my Uaru could recognize different people. 

         

        Mike

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Angela Cancilla Herschel angelasfeathers@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
        To: Angela Cancilla Herschel <angelasfeathers@...>
        Sent: Sun, Jun 12, 2016 12:29 pm
        Subject: [AquaticLife] Fish can recognize human faces.

         

        Evidence shows fish  can recognize human faces .

         

         

        Ciao, Angela Cancilla Herschel, CPBC;   

        Member:  IAABC - IAATE - WPT

        Southern California

         

        Being kind is more important ..than being important. ~

         

        California Wildlife Center,volunteer ~
        www.cawildlife.org

         

        sent from my iPhone 


         


         


         


         

         

         
         

         


         


         

        Group: AquaticLife Message: 57002 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 6/16/2016
        Subject: Re: Fish can recognize human faces.

        What a great story Angela & it could be due to any of the theories we've been discussing-height, facial recognition or mannerisms.

         John<o)))<

        On 16 June 2016 at 01:54 "Angela Cancilla Herschel angelasfeathers@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

         

         


        I wish I could remember his name ...but in San Francisco years ago the head feeder at their wonderful Aquarium, told me that no matter what hat he had on or jacket shirt that he'd put on as a test ....they always knew it was him ....and if a stranger took his spot even dressed in the same outfit ...they knew it wasn't him and did not go near without great trepidation and that many would shy away and hide .
         When it was him .....they reacted and it was a party!


        >Hi Everyone,

        I tend to hesitate in going along with fish distinguishing faces when  
        recognizing their owner/feeder, although this may play into their recognition of 
        us. Still, as we recognize each other by our faces, I'm not at all sure  
        fish can recognize us in the same manner, although our expressions just may 
        be different enough from other people's expressions for fish to notice this 
        difference. We usually can't differentiate one fish from another (of the 
        same species) though, just by sight as they all look similar. Likewise, 
        we can't tell one of the same animal from another, unless it's a man-made 
        variety as in dogs (or cats). It's possible however, that height may play 
        some roll in this, but then, if I step up on a small stand I have to reach 
        into a high tank to clean it, my fish in the surrounding tanks still seem to 
        recognize me even though I suddenly get much taller. I do believe though, 
        that our actions play a large part of our fish recognizing us for who we 
        are. We may not be aware of all of our subtle actions, but fish notice this 
        behavior unique only to us, when compared to other people in the same room 
        -- or even when we're by ourselves in that room. As we're often the only 
        person they see, especially around feeding time, they expect only to see us, 
        and when other people are with us they can single us out as we're what 
        they look for when expecting to get fed (which is all the time < g >).  
        They're always looking for us to feed them.  

        Ray 

        Ciao, Angela Cancilla Herschel, CPBC;   
        Member:  IAABC - IAATE - WPT
        Southern California

        Being kind is more important ..than being important. ~

        California Wildlife Center,volunteer ~
        www.cawildlife.org

        sent from my iPhone 

         


         


         

        Group: AquaticLife Message: 57003 From: Noura T. Date: 6/18/2016
        Subject: Re: Fish can recognize human faces.

        Hi John,

         

        Thank you. Everything is the same here J

        From this discussion, I had the impression that their brains are probably more complicated than we thought. I wonder if we’d be surprised at what fish would tell us if they could talk!

         

        Best,

        Noura

         

        From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
        Sent: 14 حزيران, 2016 10:09 م
        To: aquaticlife
        Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Fish can recognize human faces.

         

         

        Hi Noura,

         I'd not heard height quoted before as a familiar reference point for fish although it does tie in with something I heard ages ago that they recognise us from our outline/silhouette but it would seem they recoginse us in just the same way as we recognise one-another. Always good to hear from you Noura-hoping everything is going ok.

         John<o)))<

         

        On 14 June 2016 at 13:21 "'Noura T.' n-ocean@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

         

         

        I always thought that my Clown fish and Angelfish “danced” for food only when I stood in front of them, and not when the other 4 members of my family did. But I thought they recognized me based on my height J

         

        Noura

         

        From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
        Sent: 13 حزيران, 2016 03:28 ص
        To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Fish can recognize human faces.

         

         


        My Oscars and my Uaru could recognize different people. 

         

        Mike

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Angela Cancilla Herschel angelasfeathers@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
        To: Angela Cancilla Herschel <angelasfeathers@...>
        Sent: Sun, Jun 12, 2016 12:29 pm
        Subject: [AquaticLife] Fish can recognize human faces.

         

        Evidence shows fish  can recognize human faces .

         

         

        Ciao, Angela Cancilla Herschel, CPBC;   

        Member:  IAABC - IAATE - WPT

        Southern California

         

        Being kind is more important ..than being important. ~

         

        California Wildlife Center,volunteer ~
        www.cawildlife.org

         

        sent from my iPhone 

         

         


         


         

        Group: AquaticLife Message: 57004 From: Angela Cancilla Herschel Date: 6/19/2016
        Subject: Re: Fish can recognize human faces.
        Hi Noura,

        Believe me we are just now  learning  fish have consciousness and special brains  beyond our wildest notion before!
        We are understanding for example how there are more neurons densely packed into birds brains .
        Fish too are showing startling interesting differences as well !
        For example :
        We Finally Know Why Birds Are So Freakishly Smart ( remember to smile and thank them if anyone calls you a 'bird brain'!):


        Max Planck Experiment - Intelligence of Parrots...using tokens:

        >Hi John,

        Thank you. Everything is the same here J

        From this discussion, I had the impression that their brains are probably more complicated than we thought. I wonder if we’d be surprised at what fish would tell us if they could talk!

        Best,

        Noura

        Ciao, Angela Cancilla Herschel, CPBC;   
        Member:  IAABC - IAATE - WPT
        Southern California

        Being kind is more important ..than being important. ~

        California Wildlife Center,volunteer ~
        www.cawildlife.org

        sent from my iPhone 
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 57005 From: sevenspringss Date: 6/20/2016
        Subject: Re: Fish can recognize human faces.
        With adding to this message as a further example, I can relate that upon my bringing back two adult fishes (one specimen of two different but related species) from my collecting trip two weeks ago, I placed them both in the same tank that evening, which is devoid of any other fishes.  The following (full) day, I allowed them to fast.  On the next day, with knowing that these wild fishes had never seen prepared fish food, I fed them live blackworms which they took with relish while they remained cautious of me.  On the following day, They appeared to have dropped their guard somewhat when I fed them, although they were still observed as being mainly cautious.  Their behavior remained as swimming away from the front glass at first, albeit more leisurely, until their food reached the bottom -- at which time they did an about-face and had breakfast.  By the third day of feeding them, they were both at the front glass when they saw me, waiting to be fed.  These are wild fish, never having even been acclimated in a wholesale establishment or been fed before by a person, yet they comparatively quickly associated my presence with food and looked forward to being fed after just three such experiences.  As they are of a somewhat more advanced Genera Enneacanthus, this may account for a good portion of their fast learning, but it's still unexpectedly remarkable.
         
        Ray          
         
         
        In a message dated 6/20/2016 2:57:02 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
         

        Hi Noura,

        Believe me we are just now  learning  fish have consciousness and special brains  beyond our wildest notion before!
        We are understanding for example how there are more neurons densely packed into birds brains .
        Fish too are showing startling interesting differences as well !
        For example :
        We Finally Know Why Birds Are So Freakishly Smart ( remember to smile and thank them if anyone calls you a 'bird brain'!):


        Max Planck Experiment - Intelligence of Parrots...using tokens:

        >Hi John,

        Thank you. Everything is the same here J

        From this discussion, I had the impression that their brains are probably more complicated than we thought. I wonder if we’d be surprised at what fish would tell us if they could talk!

        Best,

        Noura

        Ciao, Angela Cancilla Herschel, CPBC;   
        Member:  IAABC - IAATE - WPT
        Southern California

        Being kind is more important ..than being important. ~

        California Wildlife Center,volunteer ~
        www.cawildlife.org

        sent from my iPhone 

         
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 57006 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 6/20/2016
        Subject: Re: Fish can recognize human faces.

        Hi Noura,

         Yes I think they may well surprise us if they could talk-or maybe they are simply asking for more food! Until that happens we just have to 'best-guess' their needs which hopefully we are getting right most of the time.

         John<o)))<

        On 18 June 2016 at 21:19 "'Noura T.' n-ocean@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

         

         

        Hi John,

         

        Thank you. Everything is the same here J

        From this discussion, I had the impression that their brains are probably more complicated than we thought. I wonder if we’d be surprised at what fish would tell us if they could talk!

         

        Best,

        Noura

         

        From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
        Sent: 14 حزيران, 2016 10:09 م
        To: aquaticlife
        Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Fish can recognize human faces.

         

         

        Hi Noura,

         I'd not heard height quoted before as a familiar reference point for fish although it does tie in with something I heard ages ago that they recognise us from our outline/silhouette but it would seem they recoginse us in just the same way as we recognise one-another. Always good to hear from you Noura-hoping everything is going ok.

         John<o)))<

         

        On 14 June 2016 at 13:21 "'Noura T.' n-ocean@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

         

         

        I always thought that my Clown fish and Angelfish “danced” for food only when I stood in front of them, and not when the other 4 members of my family did. But I thought they recognized me based on my height J

         

        Noura

         

        From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
        Sent: 13 حزيران, 2016 03:28 ص
        To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Fish can recognize human faces.

         

         


        My Oscars and my Uaru could recognize different people. 

         

        Mike

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Angela Cancilla Herschel angelasfeathers@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
        To: Angela Cancilla Herschel <angelasfeathers@...>
        Sent: Sun, Jun 12, 2016 12:29 pm
        Subject: [AquaticLife] Fish can recognize human faces.

         

        Evidence shows fish  can recognize human faces .

         

         

        Ciao, Angela Cancilla Herschel, CPBC;   

        Member:  IAABC - IAATE - WPT

        Southern California

         

        Being kind is more important ..than being important. ~

         

        California Wildlife Center,volunteer ~
        www.cawildlife.org

         

        sent from my iPhone 

         

         


         


         

         

         


         


         

        Group: AquaticLife Message: 57007 From: jett07002 Date: 6/21/2016
        Subject: Re: Fish can recognize human faces.
        I think it would be interesting, Ray, to observe someone else walk up to the tank and see what the reaction of the fish would be.

        I would guess that someone walking to the tank would register "food" and they would respond as they did with you. 

        I would be interested in hearing your response.

        JoeT
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 57008 From: Charles Harrison Date: 6/21/2016
        Subject: Re: Fish can recognize human faces.
        It depends . . . right hair style, right hair color, right height,
        nearly the same weight, facial hair, etc. It makes a difference in my
        fish room. My fish in general know me.

        Charles H


        >I think it would be interesting, Ray, to observe someone else walk
        >up to the tank and see what the reaction of the fish would be.
        >
        >I would guess that someone walking to the tank would register "food"
        >and they would respond as they did with you.
        >
        >I would be interested in hearing your response.
        >
        JoeT
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 57009 From: sevenspringss Date: 6/21/2016
        Subject: Re: Fish can recognize human faces.
        Joe,
         
        I understand what your suggesting, but I don't need to wait until I have someone else (again) in my hatchery as I couldn't help but notice how my fish reacted anytime I had another hobbyist over to see my fish.  They appeared quite uneasy and some even retired to the back of their tanks until the "stranger" left.  There was a marked difference in their behavior which I couldn't help notice.
         
        Ray
         
         
         
        In a message dated 6/21/2016 12:00:18 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
         

        I think it would be interesting, Ray, to observe someone else walk up to the tank and see what the reaction of the fish would be.

        I would guess that someone walking to the tank would register "food" and they would respond as they did with you. 

        I would be interested in hearing your response.

        JoeT

         
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 57010 From: jett07002 Date: 6/22/2016
        Subject: Re: Fish can recognize human faces.
        That is amazing!   I never really tried it since, for a long time now, I am the only one in my "aquarium room". 
        My fish, also, rush to the front of the tanks when I come in.  I associated it with the familiarity of approaching the tank and feeding them.

        You guys have me curious now.   I am going to get someone to approach the tank with me not being seen.  I would really love to see what the fish do.

        By the way, Ray, I am unfortunately down to a tank full of guppies.  Do not get old!   LOL.

        Joe T
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 57011 From: sevenspringss Date: 6/22/2016
        Subject: Re: Fish can recognize human faces.
        Joe,
         
        I'd be interested in how your fish will react with someone else in your fish room rather than you.  I'm not certain, but part of fishes' behavior may be associated with how far they've evolved (how advanced they've developed in fish evolution) -- leading to how aware they are of their environment, and its changes.  When I visit one of my friends' fish room, when we continue from his house to one of the monthly fish club meetings, his fish don't pay me much mind; he has mostly fancy show guppies.  When I visit another friends' fish room, who mainly keeps Bettas, there's very little reaction with his fish either.  I have no livebearers at this time, but instead, keep mostly Killifish and Cichlids (with a couple of species of dwarf Sunfishes.  My Killies react to strangers the same way that my friend's Guppies react to me -- with indifference; neither coming to the front of the tanks to get fed, nor shying away from me).  But the Cichlids and Sunfishes react noticeably negatively towards any stranger in my place.  It would also be interesting to observe just which types of fishes are more aware of a stranger and which act accordingly.
         
        Some of my best friends are quite a bit older than me and still maintain a good number of tanks.  As for me not getting old, it's too late for that < g>.  I'll be going to a Killifish Club meeting tonight, where many of the members are elderly, yet most still maintain at least a couple dozen tanks.  One of my friends whom I mention is older than me did cut back a bit.  From around 150 tanks, he's now down to around 75 tanks, and he's 10 years older than me.  Keep us informed when you have someone else over to your fish room.
         
        Ray    
          
         
         
        In a message dated 6/22/2016 1:27:49 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
         

        That is amazing!   I never really tried it since, for a long time now, I am the only one in my "aquarium room". 
        My fish, also, rush to the front of the tanks when I come in.  I associated it with the familiarity of approaching the tank and feeding them.

        You guys have me curious now.   I am going to get someone to approach the tank with me not being seen.  I would really love to see what the fish do.

        By the way, Ray, I am unfortunately down to a tank full of guppies.  Do not get old!   LOL.

        Joe T

         
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 57012 From: kbgwp Date: 6/22/2016
        Subject: Re: Fish can recognize human faces.
        This is a very interesting discussion.  I never thought about the fish actually recognizing me but assumed they just saw movement outside their aquarium and expected food.

        I once had a single goldfish in too small of a tank but I'm sure it could see out.  Everytime I walked past that tank, it expected to get food or some kind of treat.  I wouldn't want to keep a goldfish in such a small tank anymore but, of all the fish I ever owned, that one goldfish had the most personality.

        I have a feeling fish are a bit smarter than we might like to believe.

        Brian
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 57013 From: Trevor Holyoak Date: 6/22/2016
        Subject: Re: Fish can recognize human faces.
        My son's betta gets excited whenever I come into the room. Almost as much as my oscar does.

        Wednesday, June 22, 2016 12:23 PM
        Joe,
         
        I'd be interested in how your fish will react with someone else in your fish room rather than you.  I'm not certain, but part of fishes' behavior may be associated with how far they've evolved (how advanced they've developed in fish evolution) -- leading to how aware they are of their environment, and its changes.  When I visit one of my friends' fish room, when we continue from his house to one of the monthly fish club meetings, his fish don't pay me much mind; he has mostly fancy show guppies.  When I visit another friends' fish room, who mainly keeps Bettas, there's very little reaction with his fish either.  I have no livebearers at this time, but instead, keep mostly Killifish and Cichlids (with a couple of species of dwarf Sunfishes.  My Killies react to strangers the same way that my friend's Guppies react to me -- with indifference; neither coming to the front of the tanks to get fed, nor shying away from me).  But the Cichlids and Sunfishes react noticeably negatively towards any stranger in my place.  It would also be interesting to observe just which types of fishes are more aware of a stranger and which act accordingly.
         
        Some of my best friends are quite a bit older than me and still maintain a good number of tanks.  As for me not getting old, it's too late for that < g>.  I'll be going to a Killifish Club meeting tonight, where many of the members are elderly, yet most still maintain at least a couple dozen tanks.  One of my friends whom I mention is older than me did cut back a bit.  From around 150 tanks, he's now down to around 75 tanks, and he's 10 years older than me.  Keep us informed when you have someone else over to your fish room.
         
        Ray    
          
         
         
        In a message dated 6/22/2016 1:27:49 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
         

        --
        LDS Podcasts Free for Android, Kindle Fire, Nook tablets, and BlackBerry
        http://www.holyoak.com/ldspodcasts
        Retro Atari Podcasts for Android
        http://bit.ly/retroataripodcasts
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 57014 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 6/25/2016
        Subject: Re: Fish can recognize human faces.

        This is very interesting-from all your comments it would appear that different types of fish display different behavior to similar situations. Perhaps that indicates some types are more intelligent than others. My streamlined Goldfish see a number of different people from time to time & they don't seem wary of anyone-that includes nibbling the fingers of anyone putting their hand into the tank but they do go more crazy when I approach than for anyone else which indicates they at least know who feeds them!

         John<o)))<

        On 22 June 2016 at 19:23 "sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

         

         

        Joe,
         
        I'd be interested in how your fish will react with someone else in your fish room rather than you.  I'm not certain, but part of fishes' behavior may be associated with how far they've evolved (how advanced they've developed in fish evolution) -- leading to how aware they are of their environment, and its changes.  When I visit one of my friends' fish room, when we continue from his house to one of the monthly fish club meetings, his fish don't pay me much mind; he has mostly fancy show guppies.  When I visit another friends' fish room, who mainly keeps Bettas, there's very little reaction with his fish either.  I have no livebearers at this time, but instead, keep mostly Killifish and Cichlids (with a couple of species of dwarf Sunfishes.  My Killies react to strangers the same way that my friend's Guppies react to me -- with indifference; neither coming to the front of the tanks to get fed, nor shying away from me).  But the Cichlids and Sunfishes react noticeably negatively towards any stranger in my place.  It would also be interesting to observe just which types of fishes are more aware of a stranger and which act accordingly.
         
        Some of my best friends are quite a bit older than me and still maintain a good number of tanks.  As for me not getting old, it's too late for that < g>.  I'll be going to a Killifish Club meeting tonight, where many of the members are elderly, yet most still maintain at least a couple dozen tanks.  One of my friends whom I mention is older than me did cut back a bit.  From around 150 tanks, he's now down to around 75 tanks, and he's 10 years older than me.  Keep us informed when you have someone else over to your fish room.
         
        Ray    
          
         
         
        In a message dated 6/22/2016 1:27:49 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
         

        That is amazing!   I never really tried it since, for a long time now, I am the only one in my "aquarium room". 
        My fish, also, rush to the front of the tanks when I come in.  I associated it with the familiarity of approaching the tank and feeding them.

        You guys have me curious now.   I am going to get someone to approach the tank with me not being seen.  I would really love to see what the fish do.

        By the way, Ray, I am unfortunately down to a tank full of guppies.  Do not get old!   LOL.

        Joe T

         
         

         


         


         

        Group: AquaticLife Message: 57015 From: sevenspringss Date: 6/25/2016
        Subject: Re: Fish can recognize human faces.
        John, 
         
        I was curious as to how Goldfish reacted when they were confronted by different people.  For this same reason, I hoped you might chime it to this discussion.  Glad you did, since it appears your fish aren't wary of strangers but yet still know their feeder. I guess we can consider Goldfish as being more outwardly friendly. 
         
        Ray
         
         
        In a message dated 6/25/2016 5:06:54 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
         

        This is very interesting-from all your comments it would appear that different types of fish display different behavior to similar situations. Perhaps that indicates some types are more intelligent than others. My streamlined Goldfish see a number of different people from time to time & they don't seem wary of anyone-that includes nibbling the fingers of anyone putting their hand into the tank but they do go more crazy when I approach than for anyone else which indicates they at least know who feeds them!

         John<o)))<

        On 22 June 2016 at 19:23 "sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

         


         

        Joe,
         
        I'd be interested in how your fish will react with someone else in your fish room rather than you.  I'm not certain, but part of fishes' behavior may be associated with how far they've evolved (how advanced they've developed in fish evolution) -- leading to how aware they are of their environment, and its changes.  When I visit one of my friends' fish room, when we continue from his house to one of the monthly fish club meetings, his fish don't pay me much mind; he has mostly fancy show guppies.  When I visit another friends' fish room, who mainly keeps Bettas, there's very little reaction with his fish either.  I have no livebearers at this time, but instead, keep mostly Killifish and Cichlids (with a couple of species of dwarf Sunfishes.  My Killies react to strangers the same way that my friend's Guppies react to me -- with indifference; neither coming to the front of the tanks to get fed, nor shying away from me).  But the Cichlids and Sunfishes react noticeably negatively towards any stranger in my place.  It would also be interesting to observe just which types of fishes are more aware of a stranger and which act accordingly.
         
        Some of my best friends are quite a bit older than me and still maintain a good number of tanks.  As for me not getting old, it's too late for that < g>.  I'll be going to a Killifish Club meeting tonight, where many of the members are elderly, yet most still maintain at least a couple dozen tanks.  One of my friends whom I mention is older than me did cut back a bit.  From around 150 tanks, he's now down to around 75 tanks, and he's 10 years older than me.  Keep us informed when you have someone else over to your fish room.
         
        Ray    
          
         
         
        In a message dated 6/22/2016 1:27:49 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
         

        That is amazing!   I never really tried it since, for a long time now, I am the only one in my "aquarium room". 
        My fish, also, rush to the front of the tanks when I come in.  I associated it with the familiarity of approaching the tank and feeding them.

        You guys have me curious now.   I am going to get someone to approach the tank with me not being seen.  I would really love to see what the fish do.

        By the way, Ray, I am unfortunately down to a tank full of guppies.  Do not get old!   LOL.

        Joe T


         
         


         


         


         

         
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 57016 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 6/25/2016
        Subject: Re: Fish can recognize human faces.

        I think they are Ray, the fish in the ponds I look after always come swimming over to greet me when I appear & sometimes that is several weeks or even months between visits if it's end of one season until the next Spring & yet they still show no hesitation-both Koi & Goldfish seem to display the same characteristics. However, Sturgeon, Tench & Rudd are also variously in some of the ponds & they ignore me completely. The Tench in particular are quite nervous fish & are even hesitant with their owners, I wonder of that may be different if they were in tanks?

         John<o)))<

         

        On 25 June 2016 at 11:07 "sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

         

         

        John, 
         
        I was curious as to how Goldfish reacted when they were confronted by different people.  For this same reason, I hoped you might chime it to this discussion.  Glad you did, since it appears your fish aren't wary of strangers but yet still know their feeder. I guess we can consider Goldfish as being more outwardly friendly. 
         
        Ray
         
         
        In a message dated 6/25/2016 5:06:54 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
         

         

        This is very interesting-from all your comments it would appear that different types of fish display different behavior to similar situations. Perhaps that indicates some types are more intelligent than others. My streamlined Goldfish see a number of different people from time to time & they don't seem wary of anyone-that includes nibbling the fingers of anyone putting their hand into the tank but they do go more crazy when I approach than for anyone else which indicates they at least know who feeds them!

         John<o)))<

        On 22 June 2016 at 19:23 "sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

         


         

        Joe,
         
        I'd be interested in how your fish will react with someone else in your fish room rather than you.  I'm not certain, but part of fishes' behavior may be associated with how far they've evolved (how advanced they've developed in fish evolution) -- leading to how aware they are of their environment, and its changes.  When I visit one of my friends' fish room, when we continue from his house to one of the monthly fish club meetings, his fish don't pay me much mind; he has mostly fancy show guppies.  When I visit another friends' fish room, who mainly keeps Bettas, there's very little reaction with his fish either.  I have no livebearers at this time, but instead, keep mostly Killifish and Cichlids (with a couple of species of dwarf Sunfishes.  My Killies react to strangers the same way that my friend's Guppies react to me -- with indifference; neither coming to the front of the tanks to get fed, nor shying away from me).  But the Cichlids and Sunfishes react noticeably negatively towards any stranger in my place.  It would also be interesting to observe just which types of fishes are more aware of a stranger and which act accordingly.
         
        Some of my best friends are quite a bit older than me and still maintain a good number of tanks.  As for me not getting old, it's too late for that < g>.  I'll be going to a Killifish Club meeting tonight, where many of the members are elderly, yet most still maintain at least a couple dozen tanks.  One of my friends whom I mention is older than me did cut back a bit.  From around 150 tanks, he's now down to around 75 tanks, and he's 10 years older than me.  Keep us informed when you have someone else over to your fish room.
         
        Ray    
          
         
         
        In a message dated 6/22/2016 1:27:49 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
         

        That is amazing!   I never really tried it since, for a long time now, I am the only one in my "aquarium room". 
        My fish, also, rush to the front of the tanks when I come in.  I associated it with the familiarity of approaching the tank and feeding them.

        You guys have me curious now.   I am going to get someone to approach the tank with me not being seen.  I would really love to see what the fish do.

        By the way, Ray, I am unfortunately down to a tank full of guppies.  Do not get old!   LOL.

        Joe T


         
         


         


         


         

         

         
         

         


         


         

        Group: AquaticLife Message: 57017 From: jett07002 Date: 6/27/2016
        Subject: Re: Fish can recognize human faces.
        Hi Ray and John:

        Interesting.  I did get a couple of fellows to go to the tank without me.  Each one approached individually and then together.   Then I added a third.  The guppies did the same thing every time.  They came rushing to the corner where they are fed.

        So for my fish anyway, they just seem to associate the approach with chow time. 

        I think I should add, these fish have never been harassed or chased, so maybe they are not sensitive to someone trying to net them.

        Joe T
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 57018 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 6/28/2016
        Subject: Re: Fish can recognize human faces.

        Hi Joe,

         It may be that Guppies don't associate particular people with feeding/safety but perhaps other fish are different?

         John<o)))<

        On 27 June 2016 at 23:23 "jett07002@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

         

        Hi Ray and John:

        Interesting.  I did get a couple of fellows to go to the tank without me.  Each one approached individually and then together.   Then I added a third.  The guppies did the same thing every time.  They came rushing to the corner where they are fed.

        So for my fish anyway, they just seem to associate the approach with chow time. 

        I think I should add, these fish have never been harassed or chased, so maybe they are not sensitive to someone trying to net them.

        Joe T


         


         

        Group: AquaticLife Message: 57019 From: jett07002 Date: 6/29/2016
        Subject: Re: Fish can recognize human faces.
        Hi John,
          I am sure your comment has merit.   Also, as I said, these fish have never been netted or in anyway "harassed" so I guess they just consider anyone approaching a friend -- or a meal that is coming.  :))

        Joe T
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 57020 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 6/30/2016
        Subject: Re: Fish can recognize human faces.

        Hi Joe,

         Ha ha-yes food is always the bottom line for their attentions!

         John<o)))<

        On 29 June 2016 at 17:32 "jett07002@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

         

        Hi John,
          I am sure your comment has merit.   Also, as I said, these fish have never been netted or in anyway "harassed" so I guess they just consider anyone approaching a friend -- or a meal that is coming.  :))

        Joe T


         


         

        Group: AquaticLife Message: 57021 From: Larry Blanchard Date: 6/30/2016
        Subject: Re: Fish can recognize human faces.
        On 06/30/2016 03:43 PM, SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@...
        [AquaticLife] wrote:
        >
        > Hi Joe,
        >
        > Ha ha-yes food is always the bottom line for their attentions!
        >

        You think fish are bad - if my wife lets a hummingbird feeder go dry, it
        isn't long till a bird is hovering outside the kitchen window glaring at
        her. And when she refills one, at least one bird is feeding from it
        *while* she's hanging it back up :-).

        --
        When fascism comes to America it will come wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross.
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 57022 From: jett07002 Date: 7/1/2016
        Subject: Re: Fish can recognize human faces.
        Thanks for that, Larry.

        I found your comment interesting.  I know this is an AquaticLife site, but if the moderators  could just indulge me this one exception, I would love to know how you accomplished this with the humming birds.

        I tried to lure them to my garden and all I got was dead wasps that got drowned in the solution after they found their way into the hole where the bird would stick their beak in.

        Joe T
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 57023 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 7/1/2016
        Subject: Re: Fish can recognize human faces.

        Just thinking-I wish we had Humming Birds in England! You are very lucky.

         John<o)))<

        On 01 July 2016 at 19:23 "jett07002@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

         

        Thanks for that, Larry.

        I found your comment interesting.  I know this is an AquaticLife site, but if the moderators  could just indulge me this one exception, I would love to know how you accomplished this with the humming birds.

        I tried to lure them to my garden and all I got was dead wasps that got drowned in the solution after they found their way into the hole where the bird would stick their beak in.

        Joe T


         


         

        Group: AquaticLife Message: 57024 From: Angela Cancilla Herschel Date: 7/2/2016
        Subject: O/T: Hummers (video)
        Only  use homemade 4 to 1 ( Water-sugar) Nectar . The commercial ones will weaken /harm and have even killed them.

        *Here is a video of many all at once at a new feeder.

        The hummingbird nectar that is sold on store shelves contains Red Dye #40 which is a petrochemical. Red Dye has been shown to be harmful to hummingbirds. In a research study done in Japan, red dye was fed to lab rats, resulting in changing their DNA. Changing their DNA was the first step in changing a normal cell to a cancer cell. Red store bought nectar gives hummingbirds 10 times more Red Dye than was fed to those lab rats. Hummingbirds don't metabolize red dye. It passes through to their kidneys, doing damage. The makers of hummingbird nectar have been asked repeatedly to stop producing their product. They refuse

        Their bottom line is pure greed, not the health of hummingbirds. 

        They have even begun to make clear nectar. That is filled with preservatives . 

        There is only one expert recommended hummingbird nectar. That nectar is home-made, easy and much cheaper than store bought garbage. Experts recommend to use the 4 to 1 ratio only. 4 parts water to 1 part pure granulated cane sugar. Simply bring your water to a boil, remove from heat, stir in sugar and let it cool. This is as close to what nature provides in the nectar of flowers as we humans can get. It is the only way to feed our precious hummingbirds. Also if it becomes cloudy that is bacteria and if you see black spots that is mold ...both will sicken and kill the hummers . And a little secret if you buy an Oriole feeder you will get these gorgeous orange and black birds in Spring and early summer season before they head back down south for the windter ..AND hummingbirds all at the very same feeder ! To be safe make smaller batches at a time. and always clean very well before refilling . And enjoy them...they will soon find your feeder <3



        Ciao, Angela Cancilla Herschel, CPBC;   
        Member:  IAABC - IAATE - WPT
        Southern California

        Being kind is more important ..than being important. ~

        California Wildlife Center,volunteer ~
        www.cawildlife.org

        sent from my iPhone 
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 57025 From: sevenspringss Date: 7/2/2016
        Subject: Re: O/T: Hummers (video)
        While this homemade water-sugar "nectar" we'd give them is not their primary food source, still, I think it might be beneficial if a vitamin/mineral/protein supplement available for pet birds (parakeets, canaries, finches, etc.) might also be added to this water-sugar solution as refined white sugar has had all of its food value stripped from it.  As for human consumption, some people even suggest that refined sugar is a "poison" in effect, as it's depleted of it's vitamins, minerals and protein in the refining process; essentially, it's a non-food even though it will give us an energy boost as a high carbohydrate.  For a food to be metabolized by us though, it needs to contain its natural vitamins, minerals and proteins.    
         
        Incomplete carbohydrate metabolism results in the formation of "toxic metabolite," such as Pyruvic Acid which accumulates in the brain and interferes with the respiration of cells.  Refined white granulated sugar in humans can result in impaired cardiac performance and a risk of heart and vascular diseases associated with higher levels of bad blood lipids -- causing higher levels of small and medium Low-Density Lipoprotein (LDL) and reduced levels of High-Density Lipoprotein (HDL).  While hummingbirds may have a somewhat different metabolism than humans -- and we know they have a much high metabolism rate -- still, faunal organisms (or, at least vertebrate fauna) need their foods to contain its natural vitamins, minerals and proteins as mentioned above, to be able to metabolize their foods.  
         
        Ray
         
         

        In a message dated 7/2/2016 11:12:05 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
         

        Only  use homemade 4 to 1 ( Water-sugar) Nectar . The commercial ones will weaken /harm and have even killed them.

        *Here is a video of many all at once at a new feeder.

        The hummingbird nectar that is sold on store shelves contains Red Dye #40 which is a petrochemical. Red Dye has been shown to be harmful to hummingbirds. In a research study done in Japan, red dye was fed to lab rats, resulting in changing their DNA. Changing their DNA was the first step in changing a normal cell to a cancer cell. Red store bought nectar gives hummingbirds 10 times more Red Dye than was fed to those lab rats. Hummingbirds don't metabolize red dye. It passes through to their kidneys, doing damage. The makers of hummingbird nectar have been asked repeatedly to stop producing their product. They refuse

        Their bottom line is pure greed, not the health of hummingbirds. 

        They have even begun to make clear nectar. That is filled with preservatives . 

        There is only one expert recommended hummingbird nectar. That nectar is home-made, easy and much cheaper than store bought garbage. Experts recommend to use the 4 to 1 ratio only. 4 parts water to 1 part pure granulated cane sugar. Simply bring your water to a boil, remove from heat, stir in sugar and let it cool. This is as close to what nature provides in the nectar of flowers as we humans can get. It is the only way to feed our precious hummingbirds. Also if it becomes cloudy that is bacteria and if you see black spots that is mold ...both will sicken and kill the hummers . And a little secret if you buy an Oriole feeder you will get these gorgeous orange and black birds in Spring and early summer season before they head back down south for the windter ..AND hummingbirds all at the very same feeder ! To be safe make smaller batches at a time. and always clean very well before refilling . And enjoy them...they will soon find your feeder <3



        Ciao, Angela Cancilla Herschel, CPBC;   
        Member:  IAABC - IAATE - WPT
        Southern California

        Being kind is more important ..than being important. ~

        California Wildlife Center,volunteer ~
        www.cawildlife.org

        sent from my iPhone 

         
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 57026 From: Angela Cancilla Herschel Date: 7/3/2016
        Subject: Re: O/T: Hummers (video)

        Hummingbirds eat tiny insects they capture (in flight or not) the nectar mix actually is the closest we have found to be similar in nature for them.
        The nectar mixture is automatically paired to be included with the animal protein source they find with all the tiny bugs they eat .
        At the rehab center we buy specially made (avian vet) powdered complete formula to raise the orphaned or injured babies ( yes, never trim trees in Spring Summer and Fall....only in Winter, please!) . 
        Please understand that adding to the nectar can be very dangerous as they are very different than other avians .  The nectar in your gardens  is used primarily by hummers for their immense metabolic needs ( for example , their heart beats 150 times per second) .

        >While this homemade water-sugar "nectar" we'd give them is not their
        primary food source, still, I think it might be beneficial if a
        vitamin/mineral/protein supplement available for pet birds (parakeets, canaries, finches,
        etc.) might also be added to this water-sugar solution as refined white
        sugar has had all of its food value stripped from it. As for human
        consumption, some people even suggest that refined sugar is a "poison" in effect, as
        it's depleted of it's vitamins, minerals and protein in the refining
        process; essentially, it's a non-food even though it will give us an energy boost
        as a high carbohydrate. For a food to be metabolized by us though, it
        needs to contain its natural vitamins, minerals and proteins.

        Incomplete carbohydrate metabolism results in the formation of "toxic
        metabolite," such as Pyruvic Acid which accumulates in the brain and interferes
        with the respiration of cells. Refined white granulated sugar in humans
        can result in impaired cardiac performance and a risk of heart and vascular
        diseases associated with higher levels of bad blood lipids -- causing
        higher levels of small and medium Low-Density Lipoprotein (LDL) and reduced
        levels of High-Density Lipoprotein (HDL). While hummingbirds may have a
        somewhat different metabolism than humans -- and we know they have a much high
        metabolism rate -- still, faunal organisms (or, at least vertebrate fauna)
        need their foods to contain its natural vitamins, minerals and proteins as
        mentioned above, to be able to metabolize their foods.

        Ray
        Ciao, Angela Cancilla Herschel,   CPBC ,
        Member : IAATE  -  IAABC - WPT
        Southern California
         

        Being Kind is more important ...than being important. ~
        California Wildlife Center, volunteer  ~

        www.cawildlife.org

        Group: AquaticLife Message: 57027 From: Angela Cancilla Herschel Date: 7/3/2016
        Subject: O/T: Hummers (video)


        Their hearts can beat 1,300  beats per minute....and they flap their wings 80 times per second!

        >Hummingbirds
        eat tiny insects they capture (in flight or not) the nectar mix actually is the closest we have found to be similar in nature for them.
        The nectar mixture is automatically paired to be included with the animal protein source they find with all the tiny bugs they eat .
        At the rehab center we buy specially made (avian vet) powdered complete formula to raise the orphaned or injured babies ( yes, never trim trees in Spring Summer and Fall....only in Winter, please!) . 
        Please understand that adding to the nectar can be very dangerous as they are very different than other avians .  The nectar in your gardens  is used primarily by hummers for their immense metabolic needs ( for example , their heart beats 150 times per second) .

        >While this homemade water-sugar "nectar" we'd give them is not their
        primary food source, still, I think it might be beneficial if a
        vitamin/mineral/protein supplement available for pet birds (parakeets, canaries, finches,
        etc.) might also be added to this water-sugar solution as refined white
        sugar has had all of its food value stripped from it. As for human
        consumption, some people even suggest that refined sugar is a "poison" in effect, as
        it's depleted of it's vitamins, minerals and protein in the refining
        process; essentially, it's a non-food even though it will give us an energy boost
        as a high carbohydrate. For a food to be metabolized by us though, it
        needs to contain its natural vitamins, minerals and proteins.

        Incomplete carbohydrate metabolism results in the formation of "toxic
        metabolite," such as Pyruvic Acid which accumulates in the brain and interferes
        with the respiration of cells. Refined white granulated sugar in humans
        can result in impaired cardiac performance and a risk of heart and vascular
        diseases associated with higher levels of bad blood lipids -- causing
        higher levels of small and medium Low-Density Lipoprotein (LDL) and reduced
        levels of High-Density Lipoprotein (HDL). While hummingbirds may have a
        somewhat different metabolism than humans -- and we know they have a much high
        metabolism rate -- still, faunal organisms (or, at least vertebrate fauna)
        need their foods to contain its natural vitamins, minerals and proteins as
        mentioned above, to be able to metabolize their foods.

        Ray
        Ciao, Angela Cancilla Herschel,   CPBC ,
        Member : IAATE  -  IAABC - WPT
        Southern California
         

        Being Kind is more important ...than being important. ~
        California Wildlife Center, volunteer  ~

        www.cawildlife.org

        Group: AquaticLife Message: 57028 From: jett07002 Date: 7/4/2016
        Subject: Re: O/T: Hummers (video)
        Wow!  I do not know if my inquiry to Larry started all this, but, if it did I am sure glad I asked.
        Fascinating.

        Thanks to Ray and other moderators (if involved) for allowing my question.

        John, you also taught me something.   I did not know  there are no hummingbirds in the UK.

        Back to our topic on the fish recognition of people.  I tried another experiment by going to the guppy tank and not turning on the tank lights.  The fish still swarmed to the feeding corner when I approached.  So the lights going on was not the trigger.

        I also noticed, and I may be wrong on this, that they don't get too excited when I approach the tank at a later time not carrying the fish food container.  A few of the fish will still come over, but there isn't that swarm that there is when I have the container in my hand.    Not sure yet, I have to experiment a little and see if my observation of this is consistent.

        Thanks to all for this wonderful information.

        JoeT
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 57029 From: sevenspringss Date: 7/5/2016
        Subject: Re: Beware -- previous - Scanned image -- DO NOT OPEN
        Unless the sender opts to divulge in the message just what this "mystery" scan is all about, I would treat it as SPAM and stay far away from it.  While it could always be a legitimate message, having no text to describe what or why it was sent should be expected by all parties concerned -- from the member/reader to the member(?)/sender --  to be fraudulent.  Note there's no signature either, AND messages sent back to this sender bounce, as there's no such email address. 
              
         
        In a message dated 7/5/2016 2:20:01 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, res5467@yahoogroups.com writes:
        Image data has been attached to this email.

         
         
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 57030 From: Angela Cancilla Herschel Date: 7/5/2016
        Subject: (no subject)
         Fish Behaviors That Show Just How Intelligent They Really Are.

        [http://www.care2.com/causes/5-incredible-fish-behaviors-that-show-just-how-intelligent-they-really-are.html]

        Ciao, Angela Cancilla Herschel, CPBC;   
        Member:  IAABC - IAATE - WPT
        Southern California

        Being kind is more important ..than being important. ~

        California Wildlife Center,volunteer ~
        www.cawildlife.org

        sent from my iPhone 
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 57031 From: Angela Cancilla Herschel Date: 7/5/2016
        Subject: *Intelligence of Fish
        Behaviors That Show Just How Intelligent Fish  Are.


        Ciao, Angela Cancilla Herschel, CPBC;   
        Member:  IAABC - IAATE - WPT
        Southern California

        Being kind is more important ..than being important. ~

        California Wildlife Center,volunteer ~
        www.cawildlife.org

        sent from my iPhone 
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 57032 From: sevenspringss Date: 7/6/2016
        Subject: Re: SPAM Think about your condition today and live longer and happie
        In a message dated 7/6/2016 7:46:45 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife-noreply@yahoogroups.com writes:
        ____________________________________________________________________________________________
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        Paige and yet to ask for herself. Aunt madison knew how you bought. With connie was thinking about
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        qγë7*»jff CïES1TºhJ0r∃D°0ÃMbÒ%UXZ8 £8ÑjAWÃÐFǙYl̹T1⌈óΟHíCJÖĖÞ7ü∞Nj3⌊ÞTœUaûӀÎ4£µЄ8lôª óδH0Mmr¹ïȆ4»ÈmD¸p5JȊœ⁄GQСqÖ8uĀ3ñºLTBLœ7Ĩèöm4Ǫó°R´NfÛMJS1U—f
        ____________________________________________________________________________________________Hear you mean anything for some
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        Instead of gingerbread man smiled
        Maybe she passed through the tree. Madeline grinned at least maddie.
        Do anything else is place.
        Absolutely no more clothes and handed madison.ξbÑυϹ Ł Ȉ Ҫ Ƙ  Ĥ Ӗ R ƎéùÃÌMommy and grinned as ricky. Which way it meant to start. Dick asked if there it maddie. Dick smiled and if madison. Stay awake for not giving her close.
        John checked his family and connie. Please god knew and grinned as well. Would be with your brother.
        Light on them from home. Maddie was done with two girls. Today was probably because she watched.
         
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 57033 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 7/7/2016
        Subject: Re: O/T: Hummers (video)

        Hi Joe,

         It sounds as though your fish recognise the food container & associate it with getting fed. I wonder how it would be if you approached the non-feeding corner with the food container?

         John<o)))<

        On 04 July 2016 at 16:17 "jett07002@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

         

        Wow!  I do not know if my inquiry to Larry started all this, but, if it did I am sure glad I asked.
        Fascinating.

        Thanks to Ray and other moderators (if involved) for allowing my question.

        John, you also taught me something.   I did not know  there are no hummingbirds in the UK.

        Back to our topic on the fish recognition of people.  I tried another experiment by going to the guppy tank and not turning on the tank lights.  The fish still swarmed to the feeding corner when I approached.  So the lights going on was not the trigger.

        I also noticed, and I may be wrong on this, that they don't get too excited when I approach the tank at a later time not carrying the fish food container.  A few of the fish will still come over, but there isn't that swarm that there is when I have the container in my hand.    Not sure yet, I have to experiment a little and see if my observation of this is consistent.

        Thanks to all for this wonderful information.

        JoeT


         


         

        Group: AquaticLife Message: 57034 From: sevenspringss Date: 7/7/2016
        Subject: Re: O/T: Hummers (video)
        Hi Joe,
         
        We're glad to occasionally allow off-topic discussions, provided they're brought to everyone's attention as "O/T" in the subject line.  As this all appears to come back to fish behavior, it's not all that off topic anyway, while matters on other forms of life can sometimes be enlightening .  Yes, as John suggests, while our fish may be conditioned to associate the appearance of us with food, the fish food container we may be holding at those times we're feeding them may help strengthen the association.  Kind of shows that fish may be as smart as Pavlov's dog, or at least equally capable of associating similar stimuli with food.
         
        Ray   
         
         
         
        In a message dated 7/7/2016 6:43:19 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
         

        Hi Joe,

         It sounds as though your fish recognise the food container & associate it with getting fed. I wonder how it would be if you approached the non-feeding corner with the food container?

         John<o)))<

        On 04 July 2016 at 16:17 "jett07002@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

         

        Wow!  I do not know if my inquiry to Larry started all this, but, if it did I am sure glad I asked.
        Fascinating.

        Thanks to Ray and other moderators (if involved) for allowing my question.

        John, you also taught me something.   I did not know  there are no hummingbirds in the UK.

        Back to our topic on the fish recognition of people.  I tried another experiment by going to the guppy tank and not turning on the tank lights.  The fish still swarmed to the feeding corner when I approached.  So the lights going on was not the trigger.

        I also noticed, and I may be wrong on this, that they don't get too excited when I approach the tank at a later time not carrying the fish food container.  A few of the fish will still come over, but there isn't that swarm that there is when I have the container in my hand.    Not sure yet, I have to experiment a little and see if my observation of this is consistent.

        Thanks to all for this wonderful information.

        JoeT


         


         

         
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 57035 From: jett07002 Date: 7/10/2016
        Subject: Re: O/T: Hummers (video)
        Hi Ray and John:

        In keeping with our previous conversations about fish recognition, (remember I am talking bout guppies) I said I would conduct a little experiment about approaching with and without the food container.

        I have done it on quite a few occasions now, at different times during the day.  It seems to make no difference if I have the food container or not.  They always swarm over.  I tried as John suggested; approaching from a different side or corner and the results were the same.   They swarm to wherever I am.  After I am at the tank for awhile and do not feed them, they do, after a few minutes, just go about their business in the tank.

        Conclusion: They do not recognize if I am holding a food container or not.  As we all know, guppies are so active they are ALWAYS hungry unless they are sick.

        That's it, guys.  I promised to get back to you and I did.

        This was interesting.  Till the next topic...........

        Joe T
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 57036 From: sevenspringss Date: 7/10/2016
        Subject: Re: O/T: Hummers (video)
        Joe,
         
        Thanks for reporting back on this.  The whole topic was an interesting observation in fish behavior where food is concerned, and their owners.
         
        Ray
         
         
        In a message dated 7/10/2016 11:34:49 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
         

        Hi Ray and John:

        In keeping with our previous conversations about fish recognition, (remember I am talking bout guppies) I said I would conduct a little experiment about approaching with and without the food container.

        I have done it on quite a few occasions now, at different times during the day.  It seems to make no difference if I have the food container or not.  They always swarm over.  I tried as John suggested; approaching from a different side or corner and the results were the same.   They swarm to wherever I am.  After I am at the tank for awhile and do not feed them, they do, after a few minutes, just go about their business in the tank.

        Conclusion: They do not recognize if I am holding a food container or not.  As we all know, guppies are so active they are ALWAYS hungry unless they are sick.

        That's it, guys.  I promised to get back to you and I did.

        This was interesting.  Till the next topic...........

        Joe T

         
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 57037 From: Angela Cancilla Herschel Date: 7/11/2016
        Subject: Fish moving toward their caregiver
        Hi Joe,
        I am pretty sure they do see the food container.....but this suggests your presence most of all (with the learned consequence 'history') is the primary reinforcer here.


        >Conclusion: They do not recognize if I am holding a food container or not. As we all know, guppies are so active they are ALWAYS hungry unless they are sick. 

        That's it, guys. I promised to get back to you and I did. 

        This was interesting. Till the next topic....... .... 

        Joe T

        Ciao, Angela Cancilla Herschel, CPBC;   
        Member:  IAABC - IAATE - WPT
        Southern California

        Being kind is more important ..than being important. ~

        California Wildlife Center,volunteer ~
        www.cawildlife.org

        sent from my iPhone 
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 57038 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 7/12/2016
        Subject: Re: O/T: Hummers (video)

        Hi Joe & Ray,

         Regarding my fish getting excited when I approach the tank with the food container-just thinking that it may not be the actual food container they are responding to because the food is kept in one of the cupboards under the tank & it could be my stooping to open the cupboard door rather then the sight of the actual food container that sets them off. Equally it may just be the action of my hand coming across the top of the tank ready to drop food in [the top of my tank is clear plastic so the fish can see upwards as well as sideways] because they respond the same way when I simpy reach over the tank to close the sliders & somethimes if I feed peas or defrosted frozen foods I don't open the cupboard doors but I approach the tank with the food & reach over the top to open the sliders. So-could be the stooping to open the cupboard or the sight of the container or my hand coming over thet top of the tank. More food for thought!

         John<o)))<

        On 10 July 2016 at 20:24 "sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

         

         

        Joe,
         
        Thanks for reporting back on this.  The whole topic was an interesting observation in fish behavior where food is concerned, and their owners.
         
        Ray
         
         
        In a message dated 7/10/2016 11:34:49 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
         

        Hi Ray and John:

        In keeping with our previous conversations about fish recognition, (remember I am talking bout guppies) I said I would conduct a little experiment about approaching with and without the food container.

        I have done it on quite a few occasions now, at different times during the day.  It seems to make no difference if I have the food container or not.  They always swarm over.  I tried as John suggested; approaching from a different side or corner and the results were the same.   They swarm to wherever I am.  After I am at the tank for awhile and do not feed them, they do, after a few minutes, just go about their business in the tank.

        Conclusion: They do not recognize if I am holding a food container or not.  As we all know, guppies are so active they are ALWAYS hungry unless they are sick.

        That's it, guys.  I promised to get back to you and I did.

        This was interesting.  Till the next topic...........

        Joe T

         
         

         


         


         

        Group: AquaticLife Message: 57039 From: jett07002 Date: 7/13/2016
        Subject: Re: O/T: Hummers (video)
        Hi John:

        WOW.   We are creating a lot of "could be"s here.  Though I do not think we will ever know for certain, there is definitely some kind of mental activity going on there.  So anyway you look at it, for whatever reasoning the fish are using, it all comes down to the fact that fish are not just dumb creatures. 

        Joe T
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 57040 From: sevenspringss Date: 7/13/2016
        Subject: Re: O/T: Hummers (video)
        Hi Joe,
         
        While we're still on this topic, let me explain yet another set of circumstances that helps corroborate the fish behavior of stimuli association with food.  Besides having most of my tanks in my hatchery, I also have a few on the main floor of the house.  Three of these are 5 1/2 gallon tanks in one of the rooms, and housing Killifish.  A fourth tank is a 55 gallon aquarium located in another room (main foyer/hallway) which doesn't receive direct sunlight, but only ambient light from the outdoors through an adjoining room (living room).  In this tank are 4 adult Gold Veil Angelfish, which I feed twice a day -- early morning and late afternoon/early evening.  At these times, the sun has either barely risen or is starting to go down.  Because of this, I always turn a light on just before feeding time, in that adjoining room to enable the fish to see all that much better -- so no food goes to waste.  When I turn this light on, the fish cannot see me.  Then, with food can in hand, and entering the fish's room through a doorway from another room (the kitchen) that is attached to the fish's room but not to the adjoining room, the fish are already lined up at the front glass before they even see me, waiting for me to feed them.  They apparently associate the sudden additional artificial lighting with me showing up momentarily -- but not yet in sight -- to feed them. 
         
        Now, are fish smart or are fish smart < g >.  I remember reading of both Oscars and Jack Dempsey's in Dr. Wm. Innes' publications being taught to jump clear of the water by holding their food above the surface.  First, an inch or two, then three or four inches and finally a full foot above the surface.  I apologize to John for not using metric measurements, but I trust inches are fairy well universally known.           
         
        Ray
         
         
        In a message dated 7/13/2016 2:40:57 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
         

        Hi John:

        WOW.   We are creating a lot of "could be"s here.  Though I do not think we will ever know for certain, there is definitely some kind of mental activity going on there.  So anyway you look at it, for whatever reasoning the fish are using, it all comes down to the fact that fish are not just dumb creatures. 

        Joe T

         
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 57041 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 7/13/2016
        Subject: Re: O/T: Hummers (video)

        Hi Joe,

         You are correct-they certainly are not just dumb creatures! I've kept pond type Goldfish in large tanks in my living room for over a decade now & these creatures display such intelligence & perception sometimes that it is almost uncanny. The four I have now spent the best part of this evening nuzling & chasing one-another around the tank each taking turns to be the lead fish purely for the fun of it & also because I did a water change earlier which always perks them up. The largest one-maybe 9" long who I call 'Sprite' immediately stops whatever she is doing when I approach the tank & glances at the surface then looks directly at me as if to say "I see you but I don't see any pellets yet" sometimes she gets lucky, sometimes not but as soon as I retreat from the immediate area of the tank she is back to playing with her friends.

         John<o)))<

        On 13 July 2016 at 18:05 "jett07002@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

         

        Hi John:

        WOW.   We are creating a lot of "could be"s here.  Though I do not think we will ever know for certain, there is definitely some kind of mental activity going on there.  So anyway you look at it, for whatever reasoning the fish are using, it all comes down to the fact that fish are not just dumb creatures. 

        Joe T


         


         

        Group: AquaticLife Message: 57042 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 7/13/2016
        Subject: Re: O/T: Hummers (video)

        Hi Ray,

          Very interesting to read about your Angels, a couple of weeks ago I was looking after a friend's Angel Fish & although I know very little about these types they seemed a very alert & inquisitive fish that are constantly taking in everything they see around them. Oh yes-please do not apologise to me for using proper measurements, I always convert metric back to imperial to properly visualise & undertand the values.

         John<o)))<

        On 13 July 2016 at 22:13 "sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

         

         

        Hi Joe,
         
        While we're still on this topic, let me explain yet another set of circumstances that helps corroborate the fish behavior of stimuli association with food.  Besides having most of my tanks in my hatchery, I also have a few on the main floor of the house.  Three of these are 5 1/2 gallon tanks in one of the rooms, and housing Killifish.  A fourth tank is a 55 gallon aquarium located in another room (main foyer/hallway) which doesn't receive direct sunlight, but only ambient light from the outdoors through an adjoining room (living room).  In this tank are 4 adult Gold Veil Angelfish, which I feed twice a day -- early morning and late afternoon/early evening.  At these times, the sun has either barely risen or is starting to go down.  Because of this, I always turn a light on just before feeding time, in that adjoining room to enable the fish to see all that much better -- so no food goes to waste.  When I turn this light on, the fish cannot see me.  Then, with food can in hand, and entering the fish's room through a doorway from another room (the kitchen) that is attached to the fish's room but not to the adjoining room, the fish are already lined up at the front glass before they even see me, waiting for me to feed them.  They apparently associate the sudden additional artificial lighting with me showing up momentarily -- but not yet in sight -- to feed them. 
         
        Now, are fish smart or are fish smart < g >.  I remember reading of both Oscars and Jack Dempsey's in Dr. Wm. Innes' publications being taught to jump clear of the water by holding their food above the surface.  First, an inch or two, then three or four inches and finally a full foot above the surface.  I apologize to John for not using metric measurements, but I trust inches are fairy well universally known.           
         
        Ray
         
         
        In a message dated 7/13/2016 2:40:57 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
         

        Hi John:

        WOW.   We are creating a lot of "could be"s here.  Though I do not think we will ever know for certain, there is definitely some kind of mental activity going on there.  So anyway you look at it, for whatever reasoning the fish are using, it all comes down to the fact that fish are not just dumb creatures. 

        Joe T

         
         

         


         


         

        Group: AquaticLife Message: 57043 From: hughjazzoreface Date: 7/13/2016
        Subject: Growing Goldfish Fast

        John, by memory you do water changes 3 times a week? I'm enquiring because I wonder if you're following the idea that goldfish will grow really huge if the water is real clean all the time and there's lots of feeding. Can I have your input?  Robert

        Group: AquaticLife Message: 57044 From: Harry Perry Date: 7/13/2016
        Subject: Robert.....Re: [AquaticLife] Growing Goldfish Fast
        Excuse me for jumping in to your conversation.....I would consider John our resident authority on Goldfish.

        However I have learned a few things over the last 60 years of keeping fish.

        Water quality  is always important. Especially with Goldfish. The quality of the food is also important. Regular flake food doesn't have the nutrients needed. You might want to consider some live food.

        I'm thinking New Life Spectrum or Hikari products. For "flake food" You could grow your own live food

        All the above is vital for the maximum health of all fish and for growing to the maximum size but all this effort and expense is for nothing if the tank isn't big enough.

        I think I read John has a very large tank.

        I hope this helps.

        Harry
        --------------------------------------------
        On Thu, 7/14/16, hughjazzoreface@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

        Subject: [AquaticLife] Growing Goldfish Fast
        To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Thursday, July 14, 2016, 12:16 AM


         



           


             
               
               
               John, by memory you do water changes 3
        times a week? I'm enquiring because I wonder if
        you're following the idea that goldfish will grow really
        huge if the water is real clean all the time and there's
        lots of feeding. Can I have your input?  Robert

             
             

             
         
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 57045 From: jett07002 Date: 7/14/2016
        Subject: Re: O/T: Hummers (video)
        A little aside, if I may.  After reading Ray's & John's stories on their aquariums I just got this pleasant thought that brought a smile to my face thinking, "They must both be bachelors.  If I set my tanks up in the house like that my wife would be holding the door open for me!"

        JoeT
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 57046 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 7/16/2016
        Subject: Re: Growing Goldfish Fast

        Hi Robert,

         Generally I do a 25% water change every three days unless I am going to be out all day of the next planned water change in which case I always do it the day before. One of the contributors to this forum [I think it might be Charles] has a signature line on his messages that reads something like: "Change as much water as you can as often as you can" & I completely agree. I would add that I hae a 100 UK gallon tank [around 120 US I think] & I keep four streamlined pond type Goldfish. Obiously the smaller the tank then the more often & larger water changes you need to do as these are messy fish that really need to be in ponds but I only have a flat with no garden so this is a good compromise.

        I wouldn't say I feed them a lot although I do feed them small amounts multiple times per day rather then just one big feed. The staple diet is 4mm premium Koi pellets although that is regularly supplemented by cooked, shelled peas, cocktail shrimp, defrosted brine shrimp & bloodworm, tropical grazing algae blocks, sinking pellets plus the occasional treat of a small amount of egg fried rice when I have a take-away.

        I will try to shoot some photos of my fish & set up in the near future if I have some time.

         John

        On 14 July 2016 at 05:16 "hughjazzoreface@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

         

         

        John, by memory you do water changes 3 times a week? I'm enquiring because I wonder if you're following the idea that goldfish will grow really huge if the water is real clean all the time and there's lots of feeding. Can I have your input?  Robert

         


         


         

        Group: AquaticLife Message: 57047 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 7/16/2016
        Subject: Re: Robert.....Re: [AquaticLife] Growing Goldfish Fast

        Hi Harry,

         Thank you for your kind words regarding my Goldfish expertise but I don't really know a lot, just what I've picked up oer the years & seems to work. I totally agree with you about not using flake food & also having a large enough tank. If you don't have the room then putting streamlined Goldfish in small tanks will never work out successfully as they need to be in ponds. I don't kow much about live foods-I remember using them once or twice years ago but I've never persued it, I read something about it being potentially dangerous as live foods could import something nasty into your tank-what do other think about this?

         John<o)))<

        On 14 July 2016 at 06:39 "Harry Perry harryfisherman@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

         

        Excuse me for jumping in to your conversation.....I would consider John our resident authority on Goldfish.

        However I have learned a few things over the last 60 years of keeping fish.

        Water quality  is always important. Especially with Goldfish. The quality of the food is also important. Regular flake food doesn't have the nutrients needed. You might want to consider some live food.

        I'm thinking New Life Spectrum or Hikari products. For "flake food" You could grow your own live food

        All the above is vital for the maximum health of all fish and for growing to the maximum size but all this effort and expense is for nothing if the tank isn't big enough.

        I think I read John has a very large tank.

        I hope this helps.

        Harry
        --------------------------------------------
        On Thu, 7/14/16, hughjazzoreface@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

        Subject: [AquaticLife] Growing Goldfish Fast
        To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Thursday, July 14, 2016, 12:16 AM


         



           


             
               
               
               John, by memory you do water changes 3
        times a week? I'm enquiring because I wonder if
        you're following the idea that goldfish will grow really
        huge if the water is real clean all the time and there's
        lots of feeding. Can I have your input?  Robert

             
             

             
         


         


         

        Group: AquaticLife Message: 57048 From: sevenspringss Date: 7/16/2016
        Subject: Re: O/T: Hummers (video)
        John.
         
        Been meaning to add a reply here, so before this topic is put behind us, I'd like to add that with all of our (collective fish owners) opportunities to absorb our fishes' behavior, I wonder how many hobbyists actually take in all the subtle signals our fishes' are showing us, and just what they're responding to.  With your short narrative of when and just what your fish react to, I find this extremely amazing and interesting to see how your fish behave.  They appear to be at least as smart (or smarter) than many of our other aquarium fishes.  "Smart," in this context meaning the ability to equate the vision and actions of us, or any additional changes (food container, lighting, etc.) in their environment -- even at specific and expected times of the day -- with food; apparently the universal teaching tool.   
         
        BTW, I didn't mention very much about the three small tanks of Killifish I have on the main floor (in a room other than where the Angelfish tank is located).  Two of these tanks contain only one fish each, as they're either widowed (as in the case of a lone female Pachypanchax) or a widower/bachelor (as in the case of a lone male Aphyosemion).  With no other fish in their tanks to interact with, especially of their own species, I'm assuming that their attentions are more focused on me. especially around feeding time.  At those specific feeding times, they're ready and waiting to be fed and as in the case of the female which has a better vantage point, she always goes to one certain corner of the her tank and "dances" there until I drop her food in.  She might see me at various times during the day as she has the opportunity to do so, but after a few times (without success) at trying to get my attention at those times during the middle of the day, she now restricts this behavior only to these certain times of day when she knows to expect for me to feed her.  They must somehow have some sense of time, which this would seem to show, even though most will beg for food at any time -- just like many dogs, if we give in to them with treats.     
         
        Ray 
         
         
         
        In a message dated 7/12/2016 8:45:43 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
         

        Hi Joe & Ray,

         Regarding my fish getting excited when I approach the tank with the food container-just thinking that it may not be the actual food container they are responding to because the food is kept in one of the cupboards under the tank & it could be my stooping to open the cupboard door rather then the sight of the actual food container that sets them off. Equally it may just be the action of my hand coming across the top of the tank ready to drop food in [the top of my tank is clear plastic so the fish can see upwards as well as sideways] because they respond the same way when I simpy reach over the tank to close the sliders & somethimes if I feed peas or defrosted frozen foods I don't open the cupboard doors but I approach the tank with the food & reach over the top to open the sliders. So-could be the stooping to open the cupboard or the sight of the container or my hand coming over thet top of the tank. More food for thought!

         John<o)))<

        On 10 July 2016 at 20:24 "sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

         


         

        Joe,
         
        Thanks for reporting back on this.  The whole topic was an interesting observation in fish behavior where food is concerned, and their owners.
         
        Ray
         
         
        In a message dated 7/10/2016 11:34:49 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
         

        Hi Ray and John:

        In keeping with our previous conversations about fish recognition, (remember I am talking bout guppies) I said I would conduct a little experiment about approaching with and without the food container.

        I have done it on quite a few occasions now, at different times during the day.  It seems to make no difference if I have the food container or not.  They always swarm over.  I tried as John suggested; approaching from a different side or corner and the results were the same.   They swarm to wherever I am.  After I am at the tank for awhile and do not feed them, they do, after a few minutes, just go about their business in the tank.

        Conclusion: They do not recognize if I am holding a food container or not.  As we all know, guppies are so active they are ALWAYS hungry unless they are sick.

        That's it, guys.  I promised to get back to you and I did.

        This was interesting.  Till the next topic...........

        Joe T


         
         


         


         


         

         
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 57049 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 7/16/2016
        Subject: Re: O/T: Hummers (video)

        

        Hi Ray,

        I do think Goldfish-especially streamlined 'pond' types are super intelligent animals as they are the ones I spend most of my time with. They learn by observation of their tank mates which is why it's so important to have more than one. The most recent two I acquired [they are all rescues from tiny tanks] had no concept of sinking foods whatsoever having been reared on flakes but it only took a couple of feeding sessions where the two resident fish dived straight to the bottom that the two newcomers saw what was going on & copied their actions thereby getting some of the food. I think also that they must also smell different to the fish & I'm guessing that when sinking pellets are dropped into the tank now it is maybe the smell they associate with sinking pellets rather then the food falling through the water although they will snap at the falling pellets if they see them so the particular smell is the stimulus to dive. Similarly the smell of floating pellets is the stimulus to surface gulp.

        I found it very interesting that your lone fish only 'performs' at the appropriate feeding times which shows a remarkable degree of associative intelligence. Would I be correct in thinking that the lone fish are not good at making new friends once their life long partner is no longer there? I have found the opposite with Goldfish as once my last group was reduced to a single fish of almost 13 years of age he was suddenly on his own for the first time in his life which must have been awful for him & prompted me to introduce the first of my new batch & they teamed-up almost immediately. My old fish Marmalade was not in the best of health but the newcomer Sprite spent most of her time next to him & would push underneath him when he faltered as if to try to get him to swim with her. He was visibly happier & livelier once he had another fish to keep him company.

        Another very good example of Goldfish friendship & cooperation happened around 9 years ago with my first group of 5 fish. One evening a very large house fly was buzzing round the living room & landed on the outside of the tank. One of the fish immediately spotted it & tried repeatedly to eat it with no success & the fly returned several times to different spots on the tank with this one fish taking a keen interest but not having any joy. He then swims away from the fly, realising his efforts are a waste of time & rounds up two of his buddies so the three of them return & take turns trying to eat the fly! I guess he thought he might get lucky if his friends helped him out. Best of all I caught some of it on video including the bit where he gets his friends to come over which I can attempt to post if anyone is interested?

         John<o)))<


        On 16 July 2016 at 14:03 "sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

         

         

        John.
         
        Been meaning to add a reply here, so before this topic is put behind us, I'd like to add that with all of our (collective fish owners) opportunities to absorb our fishes' behavior, I wonder how many hobbyists actually take in all the subtle signals our fishes' are showing us, and just what they're responding to.  With your short narrative of when and just what your fish react to, I find this extremely amazing and interesting to see how your fish behave.  They appear to be at least as smart (or smarter) than many of our other aquarium fishes.  "Smart," in this context meaning the ability to equate the vision and actions of us, or any additional changes (food container, lighting, etc.) in their environment -- even at specific and expected times of the day -- with food; apparently the universal teaching tool.   
         
        BTW, I didn't mention very much about the three small tanks of Killifish I have on the main floor (in a room other than where the Angelfish tank is located).  Two of these tanks contain only one fish each, as they're either widowed (as in the case of a lone female Pachypanchax) or a widower/bachelor (as in the case of a lone male Aphyosemion).  With no other fish in their tanks to interact with, especially of their own species, I'm assuming that their attentions are more focused on me. especially around feeding time.  At those specific feeding times, they're ready and waiting to be fed and as in the case of the female which has a better vantage point, she always goes to one certain corner of the her tank and "dances" there until I drop her food in.  She might see me at various times during the day as she has the opportunity to do so, but after a few times (without success) at trying to get my attention at those times during the middle of the day, she now restricts this behavior only to these certain times of day when she knows to expect for me to feed her.  They must somehow have some sense of time, which this would seem to show, even though most will beg for food at any time -- just like many dogs, if we give in to them with treats.     
         
        Ray 
         
         
         
        In a message dated 7/12/2016 8:45:43 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
         

         

        Hi Joe & Ray,

         Regarding my fish getting excited when I approach the tank with the food container-just thinking that it may not be the actual food container they are responding to because the food is kept in one of the cupboards under the tank & it could be my stooping to open the cupboard door rather then the sight of the actual food container that sets them off. Equally it may just be the action of my hand coming across the top of the tank ready to drop food in [the top of my tank is clear plastic so the fish can see upwards as well as sideways] because they respond the same way when I simpy reach over the tank to close the sliders & somethimes if I feed peas or defrosted frozen foods I don't open the cupboard doors but I approach the tank with the food & reach over the top to open the sliders. So-could be the stooping to open the cupboard or the sight of the container or my hand coming over thet top of the tank. More food for thought!

         John<o)))<

        On 10 July 2016 at 20:24 "sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

         


         

        Joe,
         
        Thanks for reporting back on this.  The whole topic was an interesting observation in fish behavior where food is concerned, and their owners.
         
        Ray
         
         
        In a message dated 7/10/2016 11:34:49 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
         

        Hi Ray and John:

        In keeping with our previous conversations about fish recognition, (remember I am talking bout guppies) I said I would conduct a little experiment about approaching with and without the food container.

        I have done it on quite a few occasions now, at different times during the day.  It seems to make no difference if I have the food container or not.  They always swarm over.  I tried as John suggested; approaching from a different side or corner and the results were the same.   They swarm to wherever I am.  After I am at the tank for awhile and do not feed them, they do, after a few minutes, just go about their business in the tank.

        Conclusion: They do not recognize if I am holding a food container or not.  As we all know, guppies are so active they are ALWAYS hungry unless they are sick.

        That's it, guys.  I promised to get back to you and I did.

        This was interesting.  Till the next topic...........

        Joe T


         
         


         


         


         

         

         
         

         


         


         

        Group: AquaticLife Message: 57050 From: Harry Perry Date: 7/16/2016
        Subject: Re: Robert.....Re: [AquaticLife] Growing Goldfish Fast
        "I read something about it being potentially dangerous as live foods could import something nasty into your tank-what do other think about this?"

        I tried "importing" some plants once from a local lake. It ended up killing everything in my tank.

        For live food....I was think more in the way of cultures you can buy on-line. Of course the fish in ponds would come across a lot of insects. Most of the freeze dried and frozen seem to be safe.

        Harry




        On Sat, 7/16/16, SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

        Subject: Re: Robert.....Re: [AquaticLife] Growing Goldfish Fast
        To: "aquaticlife" <aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com>
        Date: Saturday, July 16, 2016, 5:59 AM


         











        Hi
        Harry,
         Thank you for
        your kind words regarding my Goldfish expertise but I
        don't really know a lot, just what I've picked up
        oer the years & seems to work. I totally agree with you
        about not using flake food & also having a large enough
        tank. If you don't have the room then putting
        streamlined Goldfish in small tanks will never work out
        successfully as they need to be in ponds. I don't kow
        much about live foods-I remember using them once or twice
        years ago but I've never persued it, I read something
        about it being potentially dangerous as live foods could
        import something nasty into your tank-what do other think
        about this?
         John<o)))<
        On 14
        July 2016 at 06:39 "Harry Perry
        harryfisherman@... [AquaticLife]"
        <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

          Excuse me for jumping in to
        your conversation.....I would consider John our resident
        authority on Goldfish.


        However I have learned a few things over the last 60 years
        of keeping fish.

        Water
        quality  is always important. Especially with Goldfish. The
        quality of the food is also important. Regular flake food
        doesn't have the nutrients needed. You might want to
        consider some live food.


        I'm thinking New Life Spectrum or Hikari products. For
        "flake food" You could grow your own live food

        All the above is vital for
        the maximum health of all fish and for growing to the
        maximum size but all this effort and expense is for nothing
        if the tank isn't big enough.

        I think I read John has a very large tank.

        I hope this helps.

        Harry

        --------------------------------------------
        On Thu, 7/14/16, hughjazzoreface@...
        [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

        Subject: [AquaticLife]
        Growing Goldfish Fast
        To:
        AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Thursday,
        July 14, 2016, 12:16 AM



         



           


             

               
               

               John, by memory you do water changes 3
        times a week? I'm enquiring because I
        wonder if
        you're following the idea
        that goldfish will grow really
        huge if the
        water is real clean all the time and there's
        lots of feeding. Can I have your input?
         Robert

             
             


             
         


         
         









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        Group: AquaticLife Message: 57051 From: Noura T. Date: 8/8/2016
        Subject: Ick in a planted tank

         

         

        Hello everyone, hope you’re all well J

         

        I’m currently down to 2 tanks (the third is running empty of fish, just plants and snails, 15 G).

        One of the tanks has an ick outbreak, I noticed it yesterday. The sick fish are newly added plecos (1.5 inches long), I also have 2 guppy fry in there. It’s a 6 G, heavily planted, and the only tank where plants are thriving since it’s near a window.

        I suppose I can’t do a salt/heat treatment with plecos, so I’ll be using methylene blue (correct?). 0.5 ml of 1% solution for 20 liters, that’s half a full dose.

         

        The question is: How can I treat the fish with minimum effect on my plants? If the plants die I can’t replace them since there aren’t any plants in fish stores.  

        I thought of removing most of the plants to the 15G tank (the third tank mentioned above, with no fish in it), but won’t I be also moving the ick clusters to a new tank that way?

         

        Your advice is greatly appreciated!

         

        Noura

        Group: AquaticLife Message: 57052 From: sevenspringss Date: 8/8/2016
        Subject: Re: Ick in a planted tank
        Hi Noura,
         
        Good to hear from you.  I'm doing well here, thanks; hope you're doing the same.  As for the "Ich clusters," while these may have originally come in with this new Pleco (or the water in the bag), it's generally recognized that essentially every aquarium has Ich in it and fish will co-exist with it as long as they're not stressed.  When stressed, which could be by many means, they will then often contract Ich whether or not any new fish are added to the aquarium at this time.  This shows that Ich is present all the time.
         
        What I'm getting at here is, to prevent a die off -- or even harsh effects on your plants, I see no reason why you couldn't remove them temporarily to the 15 gallon tank having only other plants and snails.  Moving them back later should not cause any illness to your fish, especially if it's not before two weeks -- long after it takes for Ich to cycle.  With no fish in your plant only tank, Ich can't find a host and should die out for the most part.  With them possibly crowded, you may need to keep the plant light on longer during the day to make sure they get enough light at their bases, just to ensure they survive without problem.
         
        Now, getting back to the Pleco, you're correct in that you can't add a lot of salt, but a salt treatment for Ich requires only one (1) Tablespoon of salt per 5 gallons -- which is far less than will cause the Pleco any stress by this agent.  As you're thinking of using Methylene Blue at half-strength, it looks like you're also aware that Pleco's cannot tolerate too much dye medication.  My reservations are that any dye medication may cause stress on this fish -- since they are scale-less and any chemical can easily penetrate their skin -- and, that Methylene Blue at half-dose may not effect Ich sufficiently enough to curb it in good time.  Stronger dye medications than this (Malachite Green, for example) -- at full strength -- doesn't always eliminate Ich from multiplying.  I'd hate to see your aquarium experience a resurgence of Ich half way through the treatment, and reinfect the fish more heavily, as can happen.  
         
        I'd suggest using the salt and heat treatment, unless Dawn (if she sees this) recommends otherwise.  Various reports that I've read state the Plecos can tolerate heat up to 27 o C (81 o F), 28 o C (82 o F) and 30 o C (86 o F).  Dr. Wm. Innes (Exotic Aquarium Fishes) states this fish's normal range is 16 o C (62 o F) to 26 o C (80 o F).  While he doesn't state the maximum amount of heat this fish will tolerate, and while he sometimes generalized, I've followed his recommendations for more years than I care to remember.  Ich needs at least 30 o C (86 oF) to interrupt their cycle -- for a period of at least 10 days.  I'd recommend raising the temperature, slowly while keeping an eye on the fish for stress, until it reaches 30 o C.  I also highly recommend that the aeration is increased and that a partial water change is done before you start the treatment.  After treatment, lower the temperature as slowly as you raised it -- provided you see no more traces of the Ich.
         
        Best of luck with their care.
         
        Ray        
         
         
        In a message dated 8/8/2016 1:24:23 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
         

        Hello everyone, hope you’re all well J

        I’m currently down to 2 tanks (the third is running empty of fish, just plants and snails, 15 G).

        One of the tanks has an ick outbreak, I noticed it yesterday. The sick fish are newly added plecos (1.5 inches long), I also have 2 guppy fry in there. It’s a 6 G, heavily planted, and the only tank where plants are thriving since it’s near a window.

        I suppose I can’t do a salt/heat treatment with plecos, so I’ll be using methylene blue (correct?). 0.5 ml of 1% solution for 20 liters, that’s half a full dose.

        The question is: How can I treat the fish with minimum effect on my plants? If the plants die I can’t replace them since there aren’t any plants in fish stores.  

        I thought of removing most of the plants to the 15G tank (the third tank mentioned above, with no fish in it), but won’t I be also moving the ick clusters to a new tank that way?

        Your advice is greatly appreciated!

        Noura

         
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 57053 From: Noura T. Date: 8/8/2016
        Subject: Re: Ick in a planted tank

        Hi Ray,

         

        So glad to hear you’re okay J

        And thank you so much for your thorough and detailed advice.

        My temperature is naturally 30 – 32  ̊C in summer, so we got that part covered!

        I have already performed a 40% PWC during the day while waiting for your guidance. So now all I have to do is add salt and wait.

        I will continue with PWC’s over the coming two weeks while re-adding the appropriate amount of salt.

         

        Now my question is, do I need to remove the plants if I’m only doing the salt treatment (rather than the methylene blue treatment)?

        The plants are Anubias Nana and Cryptocoryne. The 15 G is close to the window too, so while I can’t increase the artificial lighting (since we have around 12 hours of power cuts/day), they natural light from the window should be enough for them to survive for two weeks. But if it’s okay to leave them in the 6 G with salt, it would be much easier.

         

        Many thanks,

        Noura

         

        From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
        Sent: 08 آب, 2016 09:20 م
        To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Ick in a planted tank

         

         

        Hi Noura,

         

        Good to hear from you.  I'm doing well here, thanks; hope you're doing the same.  As for the "Ich clusters," while these may have originally come in with this new Pleco (or the water in the bag), it's generally recognized that essentially every aquarium has Ich in it and fish will co-exist with it as long as they're not stressed.  When stressed, which could be by many means, they will then often contract Ich whether or not any new fish are added to the aquarium at this time.  This shows that Ich is present all the time.

         

        What I'm getting at here is, to prevent a die off -- or even harsh effects on your plants, I see no reason why you couldn't remove them temporarily to the 15 gallon tank having only other plants and snails.  Moving them back later should not cause any illness to your fish, especially if it's not before two weeks -- long after it takes for Ich to cycle.  With no fish in your plant only tank, Ich can't find a host and should die out for the most part.  With them possibly crowded, you may need to keep the plant light on longer during the day to make sure they get enough light at their bases, just to ensure they survive without problem.

         

        Now, getting back to the Pleco, you're correct in that you can't add a lot of salt, but a salt treatment for Ich requires only one (1) Tablespoon of salt per 5 gallons -- which is far less than will cause the Pleco any stress by this agent.  As you're thinking of using Methylene Blue at half-strength, it looks like you're also aware that Pleco's cannot tolerate too much dye medication.  My reservations are that any dye medication may cause stress on this fish -- since they are scale-less and any chemical can easily penetrate their skin -- and, that Methylene Blue at half-dose may not effect Ich sufficiently enough to curb it in good time.  Stronger dye medications than this (Malachite Green, for example) -- at full strength -- doesn't always eliminate Ich from multiplying.  I'd hate to see your aquarium experience a resurgence of Ich half way through the treatment, and reinfect the fish more heavily, as can happen.  

         

        I'd suggest using the salt and heat treatment, unless Dawn (if she sees this) recommends otherwise.  Various reports that I've read state the Plecos can tolerate heat up to 27 o C (81 o F), 28 o C (82 o F) and 30 o C (86 o F).  Dr. Wm. Innes (Exotic Aquarium Fishes) states this fish's normal range is 16 o C (62 o F) to 26 o C (80 o F).  While he doesn't state the maximum amount of heat this fish will tolerate, and while he sometimes generalized, I've followed his recommendations for more years than I care to remember.  Ich needs at least 30 o C (86 oF) to interrupt their cycle -- for a period of at least 10 days.  I'd recommend raising the temperature, slowly while keeping an eye on the fish for stress, until it reaches 30 o C.  I also highly recommend that the aeration is increased and that a partial water change is done before you start the treatment.  After treatment, lower the temperature as slowly as you raised it -- provided you see no more traces of the Ich.

         

        Best of luck with their care.

         

        Ray        

         

         

        In a message dated 8/8/2016 1:24:23 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

         

        Hello everyone, hope you’re all well J

        I’m currently down to 2 tanks (the third is running empty of fish, just plants and snails, 15 G).

        One of the tanks has an ick outbreak, I noticed it yesterday. The sick fish are newly added plecos (1.5 inches long), I also have 2 guppy fry in there. It’s a 6 G, heavily planted, and the only tank where plants are thriving since it’s near a window.

        I suppose I can’t do a salt/heat treatment with plecos, so I’ll be using methylene blue (correct?). 0.5 ml of 1% solution for 20 liters, that’s half a full dose.

        The question is: How can I treat the fish with minimum effect on my plants? If the plants die I can’t replace them since there aren’t any plants in fish stores.  

        I thought of removing most of the plants to the 15G tank (the third tank mentioned above, with no fish in it), but won’t I be also moving the ick clusters to a new tank that way?

        Your advice is greatly appreciated!

        Noura

         

        Group: AquaticLife Message: 57054 From: sevenspringss Date: 8/8/2016
        Subject: Re: Ick in a planted tank
        Hi Noura,
         
        I thought perhaps your tank water may be higher than 26 o C at this time of year, but I wasn't that sure.  Oh, wait a minute, I now read again, YOUR (the air temperature) temperature is naturally 30 - 32 o C.  That doesn't mean that the water temperature is the same, even though we'd think it should be.  The water temperature is usually a few degrees below the air temperature, but probably at least 28 o C.  This is not quite high enough to treat Ich though.    But since it is up at least this high, and since the Pleco and all other fish are doing fine at that temperature, that relieves my concern about that issue.  Now, I don't know if you even have, or need a heater for the Winter.  You may have mentioned it but I forgot, if you did.  The reason why I'm asking about a heater is that you'll need to use it to maintain a constant 30 - 31 o C temperature at all times.  
         
        Oh, I just remembered as I'm writing this -- you only have power for 12 hours a day.  Well, try the heater anyway as there's really no other choice, and hope for the best.  The tank could be insulated from losing heat by taping heavy cardboard up against all sides, but that would cut most of the light out too, so I don't think that's an option.  Only if the fish will tolerate it, and you'll need to check on them regularly to monitor them, raise the temperature to 31 o C (88 o F), and tape heavy cardboard to the tank's ends and then only 1/3 in from each end on the side facing you, leaving the window side free of any cardboard.  I'd suggest using sheet styrofoam (a much better insulator), but that's probably not readily available to you.  In this way, when the power goes out, at least the water temperature will fall more slowly and may even go no lower than 30 o C until the power comes back on again.  If you see any of the fish seeming stressed because of the higher temperature and/or lower dissolved oxygen in the water, lower the temperature by pulling the heater plug and resetting the heater lower when you plug it back in again.  I'll add again, increase the aeration if possible.  Not only does this ensure a higher oxygen content in the water, but it makes it more difficult for the Ich to find and attach to a host.   
         
        As you can see, we're trying to maintain the temperature at, at least 30 o C at as much of the time as we can.  As for your re-adding the appropriate amount of salt, I don't want to leave this to chance but would rather go over that with you.  To start with, you'll add 1.2 Tablespoons of salt -- about 1 - 1/5 Tablespoon to the 6 gallon tank.  Just in case you don't realize it, although you probably do, only replace the amount of salt you remove with a PWC.  If you do a 40% PWC, you're only removing 40% of the salt,  As this is a 6 gallon tank, you'll be adding back 0.48 Tablespoons of salt when you add the new water back -- roughly almost 1/2 Tablespoon of salt, as that's all that's lost/removed.  It would make it easier if you could lower the water level to 5 gallons and do 30% (or 33% < g >) PWC and in this way you'll be remove 1/3 of the salt (1 teaspoonful) and that's all you'll need to add back with the new water.  But, the less water, the faster the temperature will drop when the power goes out.  You could try this instead -- and it doesn't need to be perfect.  If you can do roughly a 28% PWC -- a little more than 1/4 of the tank (but less than 1/3), this would remove just about 1 teaspoonful of salt, making it easier to replace the lost salt by only adding back this 1 teaspoon of salt when you add back the new water.
         
        Now, getting to the plants, the Anubias nana will have no problem with the salt, but many species of Cryptocoryne do not like salt.  Some of them will tolerate this amount if added very slowly, but still, I would not recommend keeping any of them with salt in the water.  Perhaps I'm being too cautious but I don't want to see anything happen to them.  I don't want you to have to uproot them, but they'll be safer.
         
        Ray
               
         
        In a message dated 8/8/2016 4:36:51 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
         

        Hi Ray,

        So glad to hear you’re okay J

        And thank you so much for your thorough and detailed advice.

        My temperature is naturally 30 – 32  ̊C in summer, so we got that part covered!

        I have already performed a 40% PWC during the day while waiting for your guidance. So now all I have to do is add salt and wait.

        I will continue with PWC’s over the coming two weeks while re-adding the appropriate amount of salt.

        Now my question is, do I need to remove the plants if I’m only doing the salt treatment (rather than the methylene blue treatment)?

        The plants are Anubias Nana and Cryptocoryne. The 15 G is close to the window too, so while I can’t increase the artificial lighting (since we have around 12 hours of power cuts/day), they natural light from the window should be enough for them to survive for two weeks. But if it’s okay to leave them in the 6 G with salt, it would be much easier.

        Many thanks,

        Noura

        From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
        Sent: 08 آب, 2016 09:20 م
        To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Ick in a planted tank

         

        Hi Noura,

        Good to hear from you.  I'm doing well here, thanks; hope you're doing the same.  As for the "Ich clusters," while these may have originally come in with this new Pleco (or the water in the bag), it's generally recognized that essentially every aquarium has Ich in it and fish will co-exist with it as long as they're not stressed.  When stressed, which could be by many means, they will then often contract Ich whether or not any new fish are added to the aquarium at this time.  This shows that Ich is present all the time.

        What I'm getting at here is, to prevent a die off -- or even harsh effects on your plants, I see no reason why you couldn't remove them temporarily to the 15 gallon tank having only other plants and snails.  Moving them back later should not cause any illness to your fish, especially if it's not before two weeks -- long after it takes for Ich to cycle.  With no fish in your plant only tank, Ich can't find a host and should die out for the most part.  With them possibly crowded, you may need to keep the plant light on longer during the day to make sure they get enough light at their bases, just to ensure they survive without problem.

        Now, getting back to the Pleco, you're correct in that you can't add a lot of salt, but a salt treatment for Ich requires only one (1) Tablespoon of salt per 5 gallons -- which is far less than will cause the Pleco any stress by this agent.  As you're thinking of using Methylene Blue at half-strength, it looks like you're also aware that Pleco's cannot tolerate too much dye medication.  My reservations are that any dye medication may cause stress on this fish -- since they are scale-less and any chemical can easily penetrate their skin -- and, that Methylene Blue at half-dose may not effect Ich sufficiently enough to curb it in good time.  Stronger dye medications than this (Malachite Green, for example) -- at full strength -- doesn't always eliminate Ich from multiplying.  I'd hate to see your aquarium experience a resurgence of Ich half way through the treatment, and reinfect the fish more heavily, as can happen.  

        I'd suggest using the salt and heat treatment, unless Dawn (if she sees this) recommends otherwise.  Various reports that I've read state the Plecos can tolerate heat up to 27 o C (81 o F), 28 o C (82 o F) and 30 o C (86 o F).  Dr. Wm. Innes (Exotic Aquarium Fishes) states this fish's normal range is 16 o C (62 o F) to 26 o C (80 o F).  While he doesn't state the maximum amount of heat this fish will tolerate, and while he sometimes generalized, I've followed his recommendations for more years than I care to remember.  Ich needs at least 30 o C (86 oF) to interrupt their cycle -- for a period of at least 10 days.  I'd recommend raising the temperature, slowly while keeping an eye on the fish for stress, until it reaches 30 o C.  I also highly recommend that the aeration is increased and that a partial water change is done before you start the treatment.  After treatment, lower the temperature as slowly as you raised it -- provided you see no more traces of the Ich.

        Best of luck with their care.

        Ray        

        In a message dated 8/8/2016 1:24:23 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

         

        Hello everyone, hope you’re all well J

        I’m currently down to 2 tanks (the third is running empty of fish, just plants and snails, 15 G).

        One of the tanks has an ick outbreak, I noticed it yesterday. The sick fish are newly added plecos (1.5 inches long), I also have 2 guppy fry in there. It’s a 6 G, heavily planted, and the only tank where plants are thriving since it’s near a window.

        I suppose I can’t do a salt/heat treatment with plecos, so I’ll be using methylene blue (correct?). 0.5 ml of 1% solution for 20 liters, that’s half a full dose.

        The question is: How can I treat the fish with minimum effect on my plants? If the plants die I can’t replace them since there aren’t any plants in fish stores.  

        I thought of removing most of the plants to the 15G tank (the third tank mentioned above, with no fish in it), but won’t I be also moving the ick clusters to a new tank that way?

        Your advice is greatly appreciated!

        Noura

         
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 57055 From: Larry Blanchard Date: 8/8/2016
        Subject: Re: Ick in a planted tank
        On 08/08/2016 04:14 AM, 'Noura T.' n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] wrote:
        > How can I treat the fish with minimum effect on my plants? If the
        > plants die I can’t replace them since there aren’t any plants in fish
        > stores.

        In my area, both PetsMart and Petco carry live plants. Not the greatest
        selection, but some. Make sure you're familiar with what you're buying,
        since they tend to offer semi-aquatic plants as aquatic.

        --
        When fascism comes to America it will come wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross.
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 57056 From: sevenspringss Date: 8/8/2016
        Subject: Re: Ick in a planted tank
        Larry,
         
        Good to know that PetsMart and Petco stores in your area carry live plants.  I believe most of these two stores do.  I have seen some semi-aquatic plants in these and other stores, one by the name of Temple Plant; rather attractive, but it doesn't hold up long submersed.  A hobbyist needs to know about aquatic plants to make sure that bog plants aren't bought.  I'd like to mention though, that our resident Syrian aquarist (Noura) on here has NO plants in fish stores where she lives -- and of course, no PetsMarts or Petco's in Syria. 
         
        Ray    
         
         
        In a message dated 8/8/2016 7:08:00 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
        On 08/08/2016 04:14 AM, 'Noura T.' n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] wrote:
        > How can I treat the fish with minimum effect on my plants? If the
        > plants die I can’t replace them since there aren’t any plants in fish
        > stores.

        In my area, both PetsMart and Petco carry live plants.  Not the greatest
        selection, but some.  Make sure you're familiar with what you're buying,
        since they tend to offer semi-aquatic plants as aquatic.

        --
        When fascism comes to America it will come wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross.



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        Group: AquaticLife Message: 57057 From: Harry Perry Date: 8/8/2016
        Subject: Ick in a planted tank- Try this......
        You could try turning the heat up and adding just a small amount of salt. Go here for full explanation

        http://www.fishlore.com/Articles/CuringIch.htm

        Harry
        --------------------------------------------
        On Mon, 8/8/16, Larry Blanchard labl02@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

        Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Ick in a planted tank
        To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Monday, August 8, 2016, 6:59 PM

        On 08/08/2016 04:14 AM,
        'Noura T.' n-ocean@...
        [AquaticLife] wrote:
        > How can I treat
        the fish with minimum effect on my plants? If the
        > plants die I can’t replace them since
        there aren’t any plants in fish
        >
        stores.
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 57058 From: Noura T. Date: 8/9/2016
        Subject: Re: Ick in a planted tank

        Exactly.

        We used to find aquatic plants every now and then in fish stores here before the war, but not anymore now. So I’m trying my best to keep my aquatic botanical reserves alive J

         

        All the best,

        Noura

         

        From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
        Sent: 09 آب, 2016 02:21 ص
        To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Ick in a planted tank

         

         

        Larry,

         

        Good to know that PetsMart and Petco stores in your area carry live plants.  I believe most of these two stores do.  I have seen some semi-aquatic plants in these and other stores, one by the name of Temple Plant; rather attractive, but it doesn't hold up long submersed.  A hobbyist needs to know about aquatic plants to make sure that bog plants aren't bought.  I'd like to mention though, that our resident Syrian aquarist (Noura) on here has NO plants in fish stores where she lives -- and of course, no PetsMarts or Petco's in Syria. 

         

        Ray    

         

         

        In a message dated 8/8/2016 7:08:00 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

        On 08/08/2016 04:14 AM, 'Noura T.' n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] wrote:
        > How can I treat the fish with minimum effect on my plants? If the
        > plants die I can’t replace them since there aren’t any plants in fish
        > stores.

        In my area, both PetsMart and Petco carry live plants.  Not the greatest
        selection, but some.  Make sure you're familiar with what you're buying,
        since they tend to offer semi-aquatic plants as aquatic.

        --
        When fascism comes to America it will come wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross.



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        Group: AquaticLife Message: 57059 From: Noura T. Date: 8/9/2016
        Subject: Re: Ick in a planted tank

        Hi Ray,

         

        Regarding temperature, I was talking about my tanks’ temp. they have not dropped below 30 ̊ C since the beginning of July. As for our “air” temperature… it’s usually 35 C or higher these days L

        But since the tank is under the air conditioner, I have added the heater and will ensure that it is set to maintain a 30 ̊C temp. The water will only get cooler when we have power (and the AC is on), and that’s when the heater will be ready to interfere if needed.

        Noted regarding re-adding salt with PWC’s. I’ll calculate how much salt is removed with each liter and use that as a guidance. I use a scaled bucket so this should be simple enough.

        I see, regarding my Cryptocoryne! I would hate to lose them since I only have 5 or 6, so I’m definitely moving them to the 15G today.

        The two young plecos are  active so far, cleaning the green tank walls like mad (that’s why I got them in the first place), but I noticed that they are dwelling close to the surface a little more often than plecos usually do, so I think that they are not feeling too well just yet.

         

        Thank you so much, Ray!

         

        Noura

         

        From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
        Sent: 09 آب, 2016 01:27 ص
        To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Ick in a planted tank

         

         

        Hi Noura,

         

        I thought perhaps your tank water may be higher than 26 o C at this time of year, but I wasn't that sure.  Oh, wait a minute, I now read again, YOUR (the air temperature) temperature is naturally 30 - 32 o C.  That doesn't mean that the water temperature is the same, even though we'd think it should be.  The water temperature is usually a few degrees below the air temperature, but probably at least 28 o C.  This is not quite high enough to treat Ich though.    But since it is up at least this high, and since the Pleco and all other fish are doing fine at that temperature, that relieves my concern about that issue.  Now, I don't know if you even have, or need a heater for the Winter.  You may have mentioned it but I forgot, if you did.  The reason why I'm asking about a heater is that you'll need to use it to maintain a constant 30 - 31 o C temperature at all times.  

         

        Oh, I just remembered as I'm writing this -- you only have power for 12 hours a day.  Well, try the heater anyway as there's really no other choice, and hope for the best.  The tank could be insulated from losing heat by taping heavy cardboard up against all sides, but that would cut most of the light out too, so I don't think that's an option.  Only if the fish will tolerate it, and you'll need to check on them regularly to monitor them, raise the temperature to 31 o C (88 o F), and tape heavy cardboard to the tank's ends and then only 1/3 in from each end on the side facing you, leaving the window side free of any cardboard.  I'd suggest using sheet styrofoam (a much better insulator), but that's probably not readily available to you.  In this way, when the power goes out, at least the water temperature will fall more slowly and may even go no lower than 30 o C until the power comes back on again.  If you see any of the fish seeming stressed because of the higher temperature and/or lower dissolved oxygen in the water, lower the temperature by pulling the heater plug and resetting the heater lower when you plug it back in again.  I'll add again, increase the aeration if possible.  Not only does this ensure a higher oxygen content in the water, but it makes it more difficult for the Ich to find and attach to a host.   

         

        As you can see, we're trying to maintain the temperature at, at least 30 o C at as much of the time as we can.  As for your re-adding the appropriate amount of salt, I don't want to leave this to chance but would rather go over that with you.  To start with, you'll add 1.2 Tablespoons of salt -- about 1 - 1/5 Tablespoon to the 6 gallon tank.  Just in case you don't realize it, although you probably do, only replace the amount of salt you remove with a PWC.  If you do a 40% PWC, you're only removing 40% of the salt,  As this is a 6 gallon tank, you'll be adding back 0.48 Tablespoons of salt when you add the new water back -- roughly almost 1/2 Tablespoon of salt, as that's all that's lost/removed.  It would make it easier if you could lower the water level to 5 gallons and do 30% (or 33% < g >) PWC and in this way you'll be remove 1/3 of the salt (1 teaspoonful) and that's all you'll need to add back with the new water.  But, the less water, the faster the temperature will drop when the power goes out.  You could try this instead -- and it doesn't need to be perfect.  If you can do roughly a 28% PWC -- a little more than 1/4 of the tank (but less than 1/3), this would remove just about 1 teaspoonful of salt, making it easier to replace the lost salt by only adding back this 1 teaspoon of salt when you add back the new water.

         

        Now, getting to the plants, the Anubias nana will have no problem with the salt, but many species of Cryptocoryne do not like salt.  Some of them will tolerate this amount if added very slowly, but still, I would not recommend keeping any of them with salt in the water.  Perhaps I'm being too cautious but I don't want to see anything happen to them.  I don't want you to have to uproot them, but they'll be safer.

         

        Ray

               

         

        In a message dated 8/8/2016 4:36:51 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

         

        Hi Ray,

        So glad to hear you’re okay J

        And thank you so much for your thorough and detailed advice.

        My temperature is naturally 30 – 32  ̊C in summer, so we got that part covered!

        I have already performed a 40% PWC during the day while waiting for your guidance. So now all I have to do is add salt and wait.

        I will continue with PWC’s over the coming two weeks while re-adding the appropriate amount of salt.

        Now my question is, do I need to remove the plants if I’m only doing the salt treatment (rather than the methylene blue treatment)?

        The plants are Anubias Nana and Cryptocoryne. The 15 G is close to the window too, so while I can’t increase the artificial lighting (since we have around 12 hours of power cuts/day), they natural light from the window should be enough for them to survive for two weeks. But if it’s okay to leave them in the 6 G with salt, it would be much easier.

        Many thanks,

        Noura

        From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
        Sent: 08 آب, 2016 09:20 م
        To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Ick in a planted tank

         

        Hi Noura,

        Good to hear from you.  I'm doing well here, thanks; hope you're doing the same.  As for the "Ich clusters," while these may have originally come in with this new Pleco (or the water in the bag), it's generally recognized that essentially every aquarium has Ich in it and fish will co-exist with it as long as they're not stressed.  When stressed, which could be by many means, they will then often contract Ich whether or not any new fish are added to the aquarium at this time.  This shows that Ich is present all the time.

        What I'm getting at here is, to prevent a die off -- or even harsh effects on your plants, I see no reason why you couldn't remove them temporarily to the 15 gallon tank having only other plants and snails.  Moving them back later should not cause any illness to your fish, especially if it's not before two weeks -- long after it takes for Ich to cycle.  With no fish in your plant only tank, Ich can't find a host and should die out for the most part.  With them possibly crowded, you may need to keep the plant light on longer during the day to make sure they get enough light at their bases, just to ensure they survive without problem.

        Now, getting back to the Pleco, you're correct in that you can't add a lot of salt, but a salt treatment for Ich requires only one (1) Tablespoon of salt per 5 gallons -- which is far less than will cause the Pleco any stress by this agent.  As you're thinking of using Methylene Blue at half-strength, it looks like you're also aware that Pleco's cannot tolerate too much dye medication.  My reservations are that any dye medication may cause stress on this fish -- since they are scale-less and any chemical can easily penetrate their skin -- and, that Methylene Blue at half-dose may not effect Ich sufficiently enough to curb it in good time.  Stronger dye medications than this (Malachite Green, for example) -- at full strength -- doesn't always eliminate Ich from multiplying.  I'd hate to see your aquarium experience a resurgence of Ich half way through the treatment, and reinfect the fish more heavily, as can happen.  

        I'd suggest using the salt and heat treatment, unless Dawn (if she sees this) recommends otherwise.  Various reports that I've read state the Plecos can tolerate heat up to 27 o C (81 o F), 28 o C (82 o F) and 30 o C (86 o F).  Dr. Wm. Innes (Exotic Aquarium Fishes) states this fish's normal range is 16 o C (62 o F) to 26 o C (80 o F).  While he doesn't state the maximum amount of heat this fish will tolerate, and while he sometimes generalized, I've followed his recommendations for more years than I care to remember.  Ich needs at least 30 o C (86 oF) to interrupt their cycle -- for a period of at least 10 days.  I'd recommend raising the temperature, slowly while keeping an eye on the fish for stress, until it reaches 30 o C.  I also highly recommend that the aeration is increased and that a partial water change is done before you start the treatment.  After treatment, lower the temperature as slowly as you raised it -- provided you see no more traces of the Ich.

        Best of luck with their care.

        Ray        

        In a message dated 8/8/2016 1:24:23 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

         

        Hello everyone, hope you’re all well J

        I’m currently down to 2 tanks (the third is running empty of fish, just plants and snails, 15 G).

        One of the tanks has an ick outbreak, I noticed it yesterday. The sick fish are newly added plecos (1.5 inches long), I also have 2 guppy fry in there. It’s a 6 G, heavily planted, and the only tank where plants are thriving since it’s near a window.

        I suppose I can’t do a salt/heat treatment with plecos, so I’ll be using methylene blue (correct?). 0.5 ml of 1% solution for 20 liters, that’s half a full dose.

        The question is: How can I treat the fish with minimum effect on my plants? If the plants die I can’t replace them since there aren’t any plants in fish stores.  

        I thought of removing most of the plants to the 15G tank (the third tank mentioned above, with no fish in it), but won’t I be also moving the ick clusters to a new tank that way?

        Your advice is greatly appreciated!

        Noura

         

        Group: AquaticLife Message: 57060 From: ptimlin Date: 8/9/2016
        Subject: Re: Ick in a planted tank
        Per Ray's suggestion, The very few times I have had to deal with Ich I have dealt with it successfully with simply raising the temperature of the tank to the mid/upper 80s F for a week or so. Particularly when I had some Clown Loaches. 

        Group: AquaticLife Message: 57061 From: sevenspringss Date: 8/9/2016
        Subject: Re: Ick in a planted tank
        This is true.  Maintaining the temperature at, at least 31 o C (87 - 88 o F) can often affect a cure, especially if there are only a very few Ich spots on the fish. The addition of salt is a surer cure though -- along with the higher temperature -- so if the Ich isn't very bad, you might want to try only maintaining the temperature at 31 o C and watching them very closely to see if the Ich gets any worse, before pulling the Crypts out.  I'd rather suggest a more certain cure, but a higher temperature by itself can work; I didn't want to suggest a salt-less treatment as it's not always a definite treatment.  As not all the Ich will be killed off at one time, it's always a good idea to treat the tank for 10 days -- and even then, to look carefully for any latent Ich spots that might have developed towards the end of the treatment.   
         
        Ray
         
         
        In a message dated 8/9/2016 9:07:00 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
         

        Per Ray's suggestion, The very few times I have had to deal with Ich I have dealt with it successfully with simply raising the temperature of the tank to the mid/upper 80s F for a week or so. Particularly when I had some Clown Loaches. 


         
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 57062 From: sevenspringss Date: 8/9/2016
        Subject: Re: Ick in a planted tank
        An afterthought -- Clown Loaches can tolerate a temperature of at least 33+ o C (92 o F).  As they will tolerate heat, it's easier to treat them without salt just by raising the temperature higher than the standard Ich treatment. 
         
        Ray
         
         
        In a message dated 8/9/2016 9:07:00 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
         

        Per Ray's suggestion, The very few times I have had to deal with Ich I have dealt with it successfully with simply raising the temperature of the tank to the mid/upper 80s F for a week or so. Particularly when I had some Clown Loaches. 


         
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 57063 From: Larry Blanchard Date: 8/9/2016
        Subject: Re: Ick in a planted tank
        On 08/08/2016 04:20 PM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] wrote:
        > I'd like to mention though, that our resident Syrian aquarist (Noura)
        > on here has NO plants in fish stores where she lives -- and of course,
        > no PetsMarts or Petco's in Syria.

        Oops! I wasn't aware of her locale - my apologies.

        --
        When fascism comes to America it will come wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross.
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 57064 From: Angela Cancilla Herschel Date: 8/13/2016
        Subject: Fish breathing oxygen from water explained in animation.
        Fish breathing oxygen from water explained in animation.

         [https://t.co/G5mi5lyczd]

        via @YouTube

        Ciao, Angela Cancilla Herschel
        ,   CPBC ,
        Member : IAATE  -  IAABC - WPT
        Southern California
         

        Being Kind is more important ...than being important. ~
        California Wildlife Center, volunteer  ~

        www.cawildlife.org

        Group: AquaticLife Message: 57065 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 8/15/2016
        Subject: Re: Fish breathing oxygen from water explained in animation.

        Hi Angela,

         Thanks for that-most interesting. I have to say I learned something there because despite knowing that fish extract the oxygen from water I didn't know exactly how the process worked.

         John<o)))<

        On 14 August 2016 at 05:04 "Angela Cancilla Herschel angelasfeathers@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

         

         

        Fish breathing oxygen from water explained in animation.

         [https://t.co/G5mi5lyczd]

        via @YouTube

        Ciao, Angela Cancilla Herschel
        ,   CPBC ,
        Member : IAATE  -  IAABC - WPT
        Southern California
         

        Being Kind is more important ...than being important. ~
        California Wildlife Center, volunteer  ~

        www.cawildlife.org

         


         


         

        Group: AquaticLife Message: 57066 From: Jan Kuenzl Date: 9/1/2016
        Subject: Oceans: Fascinating and Endangered (Video)
        Dear Ocean Friends,

        Within the German non-profit project WissensWerte, we just published a
        hand drawn, animated short-film called Awesome Oceans. It shows how
        fascinating this habitat is, but also how human behaviour endangers it.
        The video can be watched here: https://youtu.be/UHYBH0Vn-2Y

        It has a Creative Commons license and can be used and shared for free in
        any way.

        You can download it here: http://edeos.org/en/portfolio/awesome-oceans/

        If you like it, please consider sharing it with other people.

        Best regards,

        Jan


        --

        CEO
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        Group: AquaticLife Message: 57067 From: Jackie Date: 9/2/2016
        Subject: new canister
        Hello,

         Looking for some advise. My canister just crapped out after 2 years this August. It was an Aquatop AF series. Not sure I want to go that route again, but.......        I shopped today and brought home this cheap POS, that I will be returning asap.
        I have a 90 gal freshwater tank.

        Heading to the local Pet shops now to look.

        Sincerely,
        Jackie
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 57068 From: Donna Ransome Date: 9/2/2016
        Subject: Re: new canister
        I like the Rena Filstar XP canisters. I have been running 6 of then for 10 years now…so far so good.



        From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
        Sent: Friday, September 2, 2016 5:19 PM
        To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [AquaticLife] new canister





        Hello,



        Looking for some advise. My canister just crapped out after 2 years this August. It was an Aquatop AF series. Not sure I want to go that route again, but....... I shopped today and brought home this cheap POS, that I will be returning asap.

        I have a 90 gal freshwater tank.



        Heading to the local Pet shops now to look.



        Sincerely,

        Jackie





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 57069 From: sevenspringss Date: 9/2/2016
        Subject: Re: new canister
        Hi Jackie,
         
        While you haven't actually stated exactly what type of advice you're looking for, with a crapped-out canister filter, I might assume you're looking for a recommendation on what to but to replace the one that quit.  There are several top brands on the market -- including Eheim and Marineland (Multistage) -- Fluval canisters are right up there with the best, as they ARE one of the best.  Anyone whom I know, either on here or just out in the hobby, who has one only has raves to say about their Fluval.  I've never heard a bad thing about them and they're easy to clean and change out when the time comes, with no difficulty in reassembling them and their hoses so that they don't leak.  They do a great job, even if they cost a bit more than a run-of-the-mill canister like your Aquatop AF.  For your 90 gallon, you'd want to get the Fluval Model 406 (for up to 100 gallons) which circulates 383 GPH.  If you have fish that don't like as much water movement, you could get the Model 308 (actually meant for up to 75 gallons); but that circulates 303 GPH, which is still fine for fish preferring not to have as much current, and for tanks not quite as heavily stocked.  
         
        If you prefer an Eheim canister -- which actually cost more than an equivalent size Fluval -- you'd need to get a size 90 Model (for up to 95 gallons) which circulates 277 GPH,  By this, you can see that while this filter is rated for a 95 gallon tank, it circulates even less than the Fluval Model 308 intended for a 70 gallon tank.  This would indicate that a Fluval Model 308 is still adequate for a 90 gallon tank even though it's "rated" for a 70 gallon tank.  On average, the Eheim can cost up to about $70 more than the Fluval designed for the same size tank.     
         
        Ray
         
         
        In a message dated 9/2/2016 5:36:49 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

        Hello.

         Looking for some advise. My canister just crapped out after 2 years this August. It was an Aquatop AF series. Not sure I want to go that route again, but.......        I shopped today and brought home this cheap POS, that I will be returning asap.
        I have a 90 gal freshwater tank.

        Heading to the local Pet shops now to look.

        Sincerely,
        Jackie

         
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 57070 From: Trevor Holyoak Date: 9/2/2016
        Subject: Re: new canister
        I also like the Rena Filstar XP series. I've been running an XP3 for close to 18 years, I believe.

        - Trevor

        Friday, September 02, 2016 4:02 PM
        I like the Rena Filstar XP canisters. I have been running 6 of then for 10 years now…so far so good.



        From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
        Sent: Friday, September 2, 2016 5:19 PM
        To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [AquaticLife] new canister





        Hello,



        Looking for some advise. My canister just crapped out after 2 years this August. It was an Aquatop AF series. Not sure I want to go that route again, but....... I shopped today and brought home this cheap POS, that I will be returning asap.

        I have a 90 gal freshwater tank.



        Heading to the local Pet shops now to look.



        Sincerely,

        Jackie





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



        ------------------------------------
        Posted by: "Donna Ransome" <djransome@...>
        ------------------------------------

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        PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -&gt; i.e. &quot;new subject (was re: old subject)&quot; &lt;-
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        Friday, September 02, 2016 3:19 PM
        Hello,

         Looking for some advise. My canister just crapped out after 2 years this August. It was an Aquatop AF series. Not sure I want to go that route again, but.......        I shopped today and brought home this cheap POS, that I will be returning asap.
        I have a 90 gal freshwater tank.

        Heading to the local Pet shops now to look.

        Sincerely,
        Jackie

        --
        Ham Radio Podcasts for Android
        http://bit.ly/hamradiopodcasts
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        Group: AquaticLife Message: 57071 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 9/2/2016
        Subject: Re: new canister

        I would agree with recommending Eheim or Fluval-I've used various models from both manufacturers for years. It is well worth paying a little more for a name brand to take care of your fish in my opinion & that's coming from someone who buys mostly 'own brand' groceries!!

         John<o)))<

        On 02 September 2016 at 23:14 "Trevor Holyoak trevor@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

         

        I also like the Rena Filstar XP series. I've been running an XP3 for close to 18 years, I believe.

        - Trevor

        Friday, September 02, 2016 4:02 PM
        I like the Rena Filstar XP canisters. I have been running 6 of then for 10 years now…so far so good.



        From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
        Sent: Friday, September 2, 2016 5:19 PM
        To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [AquaticLife] new canister





        Hello,



        Looking for some advise. My canister just crapped out after 2 years this August. It was an Aquatop AF series. Not sure I want to go that route again, but....... I shopped today and brought home this cheap POS, that I will be returning asap.

        I have a 90 gal freshwater tank.



        Heading to the local Pet shops now to look.



        Sincerely,

        Jackie





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



        ------------------------------------
        Posted by: "Donna Ransome" <djransome@...>
        ------------------------------------

        AquaticLife � A great way to share experience & ask ?s

        Join us on our Facebook page...https://www.facebook.com/AquaticLifeGroup

        Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You.
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        PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -&gt; i.e. &quot;new subject (was re: old subject)&quot; &lt;-
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        We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter.

        If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on &quot;Edit My Membership&quot; on the home page.

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        Friday, September 02, 2016 3:19 PM
        Hello,

         Looking for some advise. My canister just crapped out after 2 years this August. It was an Aquatop AF series. Not sure I want to go that route again, but.......        I shopped today and brought home this cheap POS, that I will be returning asap.
        I have a 90 gal freshwater tank.

        Heading to the local Pet shops now to look.

        Sincerely,
        Jackie
         

        --
        Ham Radio Podcasts for Android
        http://bit.ly/hamradiopodcasts
        LDS Podcasts Free for Android and Kindle Fire
        http://www.holyoak.com/ldspodcasts

         


         


         

        Group: AquaticLife Message: 57072 From: Kevin Boyle Date: 9/2/2016
        Subject: Re: new canister

        you would save a lot of money by buying, www.kensfish.com is very reliable. problem of course is that we are at the beginning of a holiday weekend. eheim 2217 would be a great choice for a 90 gal. comes with everything you would need. they are around 150.00, in a store you are going to pay probably 250.00. online will also have more of a selection than most stores. most of the canisters for sale these days are pretty reliable


        On 9/2/2016 5:19 PM, Jackie actjak2@... [AquaticLife] wrote:
         
        Hello,

         Looking for some advise. My canister just crapped out after 2 years this August. It was an Aquatop AF series. Not sure I want to go that route again, but.......        I shopped today and brought home this cheap POS, that I will be returning asap.
        I have a 90 gal freshwater tank.

        Heading to the local Pet shops now to look.

        Sincerely,
        Jackie

        -- 
        "Never use a big word when a monosyllabic diminutive will suffice."
        
        
        If it turns out that we really are alone in the universe, doesn't it seem like an awful waste of space?"
        
        
        Stupidity is a lot like nuclear power; it can be used for good or evil but either way you wouldn't want to get any on you>"
        
        
        
        
        ><((((º>`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·...¸><((((º>¸.
        ·´¯`·.¸. , . .·´¯`·.. ><((((º>`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·...¸><((((º>
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 57073 From: Trevor Holyoak Date: 9/2/2016
        Subject: Re: new canister
        Since when is API not a "name brand"?

        Friday, September 02, 2016 4:28 PM

        I would agree with recommending Eheim or Fluval-I've used various models from both manufacturers for years. It is well worth paying a little more for a name brand to take care of your fish in my opinion & that's coming from someone who buys mostly 'own brand' groceries!!

         John<o)))<

        On 02 September 2016 at 23:14 "Trevor Holyoak trevor@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

         

        I also like the Rena Filstar XP series. I've been running an XP3 for close to 18 years, I believe.

        - Trevor

        Friday, September 02, 2016 4:02 PM
        I like the Rena Filstar XP canisters. I have been running 6 of then for 10 years now…so far so good.



        From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
        Sent: Friday, September 2, 2016 5:19 PM
        To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [AquaticLife] new canister





        Hello,



        Looking for some advise. My canister just crapped out after 2 years this August. It was an Aquatop AF series. Not sure I want to go that route again, but....... I shopped today and brought home this cheap POS, that I will be returning asap.

        I have a 90 gal freshwater tank.



        Heading to the local Pet shops now to look.



        Sincerely,

        Jackie





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



        ------------------------------------
        Posted by: "Donna Ransome" <djransome@...>
        ------------------------------------

        AquaticLife � A great way to share experience & ask ?s

        Join us on our Facebook page...https://www.facebook.com/AquaticLifeGroup

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        PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -&gt; i.e. &quot;new subject (was re: old subject)&quot; &lt;-
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        We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter.

        If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on &quot;Edit My Membership&quot; on the home page.

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        Friday, September 02, 2016 3:19 PM
        Hello,

         Looking for some advise. My canister just crapped out after 2 years this August. It was an Aquatop AF series. Not sure I want to go that route again, but.......        I shopped today and brought home this cheap POS, that I will be returning asap.
        I have a 90 gal freshwater tank.

        Heading to the local Pet shops now to look.

        Sincerely,
        Jackie
         

         


         


         

        Friday, September 02, 2016 4:14 PM
        I also like the Rena Filstar XP series. I've been running an XP3 for close to 18 years, I believe.

        - Trevor


        Friday, September 02, 2016 4:02 PM
        I like the Rena Filstar XP canisters. I have been running 6 of then for 10 years now…so far so good.



        From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
        Sent: Friday, September 2, 2016 5:19 PM
        To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [AquaticLife] new canister





        Hello,



        Looking for some advise. My canister just crapped out after 2 years this August. It was an Aquatop AF series. Not sure I want to go that route again, but....... I shopped today and brought home this cheap POS, that I will be returning asap.

        I have a 90 gal freshwater tank.



        Heading to the local Pet shops now to look.



        Sincerely,

        Jackie





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



        ------------------------------------
        Posted by: "Donna Ransome" <djransome@...>
        ------------------------------------

        AquaticLife � A great way to share experience & ask ?s

        Join us on our Facebook page...https://www.facebook.com/AquaticLifeGroup

        Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You.
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        PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -&gt; i.e. &quot;new subject (was re: old subject)&quot; &lt;-
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        We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter.

        If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on &quot;Edit My Membership&quot; on the home page.

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        Friday, September 02, 2016 3:19 PM
        Hello,

         Looking for some advise. My canister just crapped out after 2 years this August. It was an Aquatop AF series. Not sure I want to go that route again, but.......        I shopped today and brought home this cheap POS, that I will be returning asap.
        I have a 90 gal freshwater tank.

        Heading to the local Pet shops now to look.

        Sincerely,
        Jackie

        --
        Ham Radio Podcasts for Android
        http://bit.ly/hamradiopodcasts
        LDS Podcasts Free for Android and Kindle Fire
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        Group: AquaticLife Message: 57074 From: Larry Blanchard Date: 9/2/2016
        Subject: Re: new canister
        On 09/02/2016 03:02 PM, 'Donna Ransome' djransome@...
        [AquaticLife] wrote:
        > I like the Rena Filstar XP canisters. I have been running 6 of then
        > for 10 years now…so far so good.

        I only have one of them but it's also been running for at least 10 years.

        --
        When fascism comes to America it will come wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross.
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 57075 From: sevenspringss Date: 9/2/2016
        Subject: Re: new canister
        If you don't need to buy this big ticket item at your LFS (local fish store), you can get a much better deal at one of the large discount outlets, such as what was mentioned here already, as the one in MA (Ken's Fish).  Others, if they carry canisters, would be Big Al's, Jehmco, Drs Foster & Smith and That Fish Place.  The ones I mentioned, including the Fluval I recommend, are carried by Drs Foster & Smith.  All of these retailers are highly reliable.  That you're returning your Aquatop would indicate you might be getting some kind of credit for it, despite it being 2 years old, so go for it if you can save money that way.
         
        The Drs Foster & Smith catalog shows only the Eheim, Marineland, Fluval, API (nexx), JBJ (Reaction) and Rapids (Mini-Canister) brands canisiters, although their catalogs are being downsized and other products may often be found on their websites.  The API model in their catalog is the "nexx Filter" BLK-78551, designed for up to 55 gallons; not large enough for your needs.
         
        The Eheim 90 Model is priced at $249.99, while the Fuval Model 406 is priced at $189.99; the Fluval Model 306 (I originally made a typo error as "308" in my first reply) is priced at $139.99.  Marineland's Multistage Model C-360 (for up to 100 gallons), recirculating rate - 360 GPH -- again, almost as high as the Fluval Model 406 @ 383 GPH -- is priced at $179.99.  The JBJ Reaction 4-Stage Canister Model EFU-25, while somewhat smaller but rated for up to 100 gallons, has a water turnover rate of only 198 GPH; it's priced at $$119.99, but it doesn't appear adequate enough.  The next size JBJ canister is Model EFU-35, with a water turnover rate of 250 GPH (rated for up to 150 gallons, but it doesn't seem so by its output rate; it's priced at $133.99, while the largest JBJ (Model EFU-45, having at turnover rate of 290 GPH (and rated for up to 175 gallons) is priced at $148.99.  At any of these prices, all of the discount retailers would be giving you free shipping, but if you need a canister today or by tomorrow, they just can't be shipped that fast and with the Holiday coming up, you couldn't get it before Tuesday.  At least these comparisons may be of some help to you locally.
         
        Ray      
         
         
         
        In a message dated 9/2/2016 5:36:49 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes: 

        Hello,

         Looking for some advise. My canister just crapped out after 2 years this August. It was an Aquatop AF series. Not sure I want to go that route again, but.......        I shopped today and brought home this cheap POS, that I will be returning asap.
        I have a 90 gal freshwater tank.

        Heading to the local Pet shops now to look.

        Sincerely,
        Jackie

        Group: AquaticLife Message: 57076 From: pam andress Date: 9/2/2016
        Subject: Re: new canister

        I LOVE my Fluvals. That is the only canister I would get.




        From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Jackie actjak2@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Friday, September 2, 2016 4:19 PM
        To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [AquaticLife] new canister
         
         

        Hello,

         Looking for some advise. My canister just crapped out after 2 years this August. It was an Aquatop AF series. Not sure I want to go that route again, but.......        I shopped today and brought home this cheap POS, that I will be returning asap.
        I have a 90 gal freshwater tank.

        Heading to the local Pet shops now to look.

        Sincerely,
        Jackie

        Group: AquaticLife Message: 57077 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 9/2/2016
        Subject: Re: new canister

        It is but I don't feel qualified to comment because I've never had one & know nothing about them.

         John<o)))<

        On 02 September 2016 at 23:54 "Trevor Holyoak trevor@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

         

        Since when is API not a "name brand"?

        Friday, September 02, 2016 4:28 PM

        I would agree with recommending Eheim or Fluval-I've used various models from both manufacturers for years. It is well worth paying a little more for a name brand to take care of your fish in my opinion & that's coming from someone who buys mostly 'own brand' groceries!!

         John<o)))<

        On 02 September 2016 at 23:14 "Trevor Holyoak trevor@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

         

        I also like the Rena Filstar XP series. I've been running an XP3 for close to 18 years, I believe.

        - Trevor

        Friday, September 02, 2016 4:02 PM
        I like the Rena Filstar XP canisters. I have been running 6 of then for 10 years now…so far so good.



        From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
        Sent: Friday, September 2, 2016 5:19 PM
        To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [AquaticLife] new canister





        Hello,



        Looking for some advise. My canister just crapped out after 2 years this August. It was an Aquatop AF series. Not sure I want to go that route again, but....... I shopped today and brought home this cheap POS, that I will be returning asap.

        I have a 90 gal freshwater tank.



        Heading to the local Pet shops now to look.



        Sincerely,

        Jackie





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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        Friday, September 02, 2016 3:19 PM
        Hello,

         Looking for some advise. My canister just crapped out after 2 years this August. It was an Aquatop AF series. Not sure I want to go that route again, but.......        I shopped today and brought home this cheap POS, that I will be returning asap.
        I have a 90 gal freshwater tank.

        Heading to the local Pet shops now to look.

        Sincerely,
        Jackie
         

         


         


         

         
        Friday, September 02, 2016 4:14 PM
        I also like the Rena Filstar XP series. I've been running an XP3 for close to 18 years, I believe.

        - Trevor


         
        Friday, September 02, 2016 4:02 PM
        I like the Rena Filstar XP canisters. I have been running 6 of then for 10 years now…so far so good.



        From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
        Sent: Friday, September 2, 2016 5:19 PM
        To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [AquaticLife] new canister





        Hello,



        Looking for some advise. My canister just crapped out after 2 years this August. It was an Aquatop AF series. Not sure I want to go that route again, but....... I shopped today and brought home this cheap POS, that I will be returning asap.

        I have a 90 gal freshwater tank.



        Heading to the local Pet shops now to look.



        Sincerely,

        Jackie





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



        ------------------------------------
        Posted by: "Donna Ransome" <djransome@...>
        ------------------------------------

        AquaticLife � A great way to share experience & ask ?s

        Join us on our Facebook page...https://www.facebook.com/AquaticLifeGroup

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        PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -&gt; i.e. &quot;new subject (was re: old subject)&quot; &lt;-
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        Friday, September 02, 2016 3:19 PM
        Hello,

         Looking for some advise. My canister just crapped out after 2 years this August. It was an Aquatop AF series. Not sure I want to go that route again, but.......        I shopped today and brought home this cheap POS, that I will be returning asap.
        I have a 90 gal freshwater tank.

        Heading to the local Pet shops now to look.

        Sincerely,
        Jackie
         

        --
        Ham Radio Podcasts for Android
        http://bit.ly/hamradiopodcasts
        LDS Podcasts Free for Android and Kindle Fire
        http://www.holyoak.com/ldspodcasts

         


         


         

        Group: AquaticLife Message: 57078 From: Kevin Boyle Date: 9/2/2016
        Subject: Re: new canister

        the eheim model you would want would probably be the 2215. it's rated for up to 93 gallon tanks. you would be better off (especially since we don't know what kind of fish you keep with the eheim 2217, rated at up to a 159 gallon tank. bigger is usually better in aquarium filters


        On 9/2/2016 5:19 PM, Jackie actjak2@... [AquaticLife] wrote:
         
        Hello,

         Looking for some advise. My canister just crapped out after 2 years this August. It was an Aquatop AF series. Not sure I want to go that route again, but.......        I shopped today and brought home this cheap POS, that I will be returning asap.
        I have a 90 gal freshwater tank.

        Heading to the local Pet shops now to look.

        Sincerely,
        Jackie

        -- 
        "Never use a big word when a monosyllabic diminutive will suffice."
        
        
        If it turns out that we really are alone in the universe, doesn't it seem like an awful waste of space?"
        
        
        Stupidity is a lot like nuclear power; it can be used for good or evil but either way you wouldn't want to get any on you>"
        
        
        
        
        ><((((º>`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·...¸><((((º>¸.
        ·´¯`·.¸. , . .·´¯`·.. ><((((º>`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·...¸><((((º>
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 57079 From: Kevin Boyle Date: 9/2/2016
        Subject: Re: new canister

        eheim 2217 is fairly comparable to Fluval 406. you can get a 2217 or (for less) a 2215 for under 150.00. a fluval 406 cannot be found for under 199.00 and go up quickly from there. i have 9 2217s, the oldest is 19 and runs fine. i had many fluval 404s, 405s and while they worked they were no match for the 2217s. everyone is going to have their own opinion as to which is the better brand, go to an online web site and look at customer ratings as they can be informative.


        On 9/2/2016 5:19 PM, Jackie actjak2@... [AquaticLife] wrote:
         
        Hello,

         Looking for some advise. My canister just crapped out after 2 years this August. It was an Aquatop AF series. Not sure I want to go that route again, but.......        I shopped today and brought home this cheap POS, that I will be returning asap.
        I have a 90 gal freshwater tank.

        Heading to the local Pet shops now to look.

        Sincerely,
        Jackie

        -- 
        "Never use a big word when a monosyllabic diminutive will suffice."
        
        
        If it turns out that we really are alone in the universe, doesn't it seem like an awful waste of space?"
        
        
        Stupidity is a lot like nuclear power; it can be used for good or evil but either way you wouldn't want to get any on you>"
        
        
        
        
        ><((((º>`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·...¸><((((º>¸.
        ·´¯`·.¸. , . .·´¯`·.. ><((((º>`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·...¸><((((º>
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 57080 From: Trevor Holyoak Date: 9/2/2016
        Subject: Re: new canister
        OK, perhaps you were replying to the wrong message. It appeared that you were saying that Eheim and Fluval were superior to the Rena Filstar line because they were name brands, since you were responding to my message saying my Rena Filstar XP3 is now 18 years old and still going strong.

        A lot of people here seem to be biased towards Eheim and Fluval, but the only people that have spoken of actual experience in longevity use the Rena Filstar XP line, which is less expensive.

        - Trevor

        SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@... [AquaticLife] wrote:

        It is but I don't feel qualified to comment because I've never had one & know nothing about them.

         John<o)))<

        On 02 September 2016 at 23:54 "Trevor Holyoak trevor@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

         

        Since when is API not a "name brand"?

        Friday, September 02, 2016 4:28 PM

        I would agree with recommending Eheim or Fluval-I've used various models from both manufacturers for years. It is well worth paying a little more for a name brand to take care of your fish in my opinion & that's coming from someone who buys mostly 'own brand' groceries!!

         John<o)))<

        On 02 September 2016 at 23:14 "Trevor Holyoak trevor@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

         

        I also like the Rena Filstar XP series. I've been running an XP3 for close to 18 years, I believe.

        - Trevor

        Friday, September 02, 2016 4:02 PM
        I like the Rena Filstar XP canisters. I have been running 6 of then for 10 years now…so far so good.



        From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
        Sent: Friday, September 2, 2016 5:19 PM
        To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [AquaticLife] new canister





        Hello,



        Looking for some advise. My canister just crapped out after 2 years this August. It was an Aquatop AF series. Not sure I want to go that route again, but....... I shopped today and brought home this cheap POS, that I will be returning asap.

        I have a 90 gal freshwater tank.



        Heading to the local Pet shops now to look.



        Sincerely,

        Jackie





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



        ------------------------------------
        Posted by: "Donna Ransome" <djransome@...>
        ------------------------------------

        AquaticLife � A great way to share experience & ask ?s

        Join us on our Facebook page...https://www.facebook.com/AquaticLifeGroup

        Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You.
        ���`�.��.&gt;&lt;((((�&gt;.���`�.��.���`�.�&gt;&lt;((((�&gt; �.���`�.�. , .���`�..&gt;&lt;((((�&gt;
        PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -&gt; i.e. &quot;new subject (was re: old subject)&quot; &lt;-
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        We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter.

        If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on &quot;Edit My Membership&quot; on the home page.

        Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email

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        Friday, September 02, 2016 3:19 PM
        Hello,

         Looking for some advise. My canister just crapped out after 2 years this August. It was an Aquatop AF series. Not sure I want to go that route again, but.......        I shopped today and brought home this cheap POS, that I will be returning asap.
        I have a 90 gal freshwater tank.

        Heading to the local Pet shops now to look.

        Sincerely,
        Jackie
         

         


         


         

         
        Friday, September 02, 2016 4:14 PM
        I also like the Rena Filstar XP series. I've been running an XP3 for close to 18 years, I believe.

        - Trevor


         
        Friday, September 02, 2016 4:02 PM
        I like the Rena Filstar XP canisters. I have been running 6 of then for 10 years now…so far so good.



        From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
        Sent: Friday, September 2, 2016 5:19 PM
        To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [AquaticLife] new canister





        Hello,



        Looking for some advise. My canister just crapped out after 2 years this August. It was an Aquatop AF series. Not sure I want to go that route again, but....... I shopped today and brought home this cheap POS, that I will be returning asap.

        I have a 90 gal freshwater tank.



        Heading to the local Pet shops now to look.



        Sincerely,

        Jackie





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



        ------------------------------------
        Posted by: "Donna Ransome" <djransome@...>
        ------------------------------------

        AquaticLife � A great way to share experience & ask ?s

        Join us on our Facebook page...https://www.facebook.com/AquaticLifeGroup

        Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You.
        ���`�.��.&gt;&lt;((((�&gt;.���`�.��.���`�.�&gt;&lt;((((�&gt; �.���`�.�. , .���`�..&gt;&lt;((((�&gt;
        PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -&gt; i.e. &quot;new subject (was re: old subject)&quot; &lt;-
        &lt;�((((&gt;&lt;.���`�.��.���`�.�&lt;�((((&gt;&lt;�.���`�.�. , .���`�..&lt;�((((&gt;&lt;���`�.��.
        We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter.

        If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on &quot;Edit My Membership&quot; on the home page.

        Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email

        Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies.

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        Friday, September 02, 2016 3:19 PM
        Hello,

         Looking for some advise. My canister just crapped out after 2 years this August. It was an Aquatop AF series. Not sure I want to go that route again, but.......        I shopped today and brought home this cheap POS, that I will be returning asap.
        I have a 90 gal freshwater tank.

        Heading to the local Pet shops now to look.

        Sincerely,
        Jackie
         

        --
        Ham Radio Podcasts for Android
        http://bit.ly/hamradiopodcasts
        LDS Podcasts Free for Android and Kindle Fire
        http://www.holyoak.com/ldspodcasts

         


         


         


        --
        Sent from Postbox
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 57081 From: Donna Ransome Date: 9/3/2016
        Subject: Re: new canister
        I have Eheims as well and prefer the XP filters. Not just because they are less expensive, but also the configuration is easier to maintain than the Eheims.



        From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
        Sent: Saturday, September 3, 2016 1:01 AM
        To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] new canister





        OK, perhaps you were replying to the wrong message. It appeared that you were saying that Eheim and Fluval were superior to the Rena Filstar line because they were name brands, since you were responding to my message saying my Rena Filstar XP3 is now 18 years old and still going strong.

        A lot of people here seem to be biased towards Eheim and Fluval, but the only people that have spoken of actual experience in longevity use the Rena Filstar XP line, which is less expensive.

        - Trevor

        SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@... <mailto:simmonds.john@...> [AquaticLife] wrote:

        It is but I don't feel qualified to comment because I've never had one & know nothing about them.

        John<o)))<

        On 02 September 2016 at 23:54 "Trevor Holyoak trevor@... <mailto:trevor@...> [AquaticLife]" <mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:



        Since when is API not a "name brand"?

        <mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@... [AquaticLife]

        Friday, September 02, 2016 4:28 PM

        I would agree with recommending Eheim or Fluval-I've used various models from both manufacturers for years. It is well worth paying a little more for a name brand to take care of your fish in my opinion & that's coming from someone who buys mostly 'own brand' groceries!!

        John<o)))<

        On 02 September 2016 at 23:14 "Trevor Holyoak trevor@... <mailto:trevor@...> [AquaticLife]" <mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:



        I also like the Rena Filstar XP series. I've been running an XP3 for close to 18 years, I believe.

        - Trevor

        <mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> 'Donna Ransome' djransome@... [AquaticLife]

        Friday, September 02, 2016 4:02 PM

        I like the Rena Filstar XP canisters. I have been running 6 of then for 10 years now…so far so good.



        From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
        Sent: Friday, September 2, 2016 5:19 PM
        To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
        Subject: [AquaticLife] new canister





        Hello,



        Looking for some advise. My canister just crapped out after 2 years this August. It was an Aquatop AF series. Not sure I want to go that route again, but....... I shopped today and brought home this cheap POS, that I will be returning asap.

        I have a 90 gal freshwater tank.



        Heading to the local Pet shops now to look.



        Sincerely,

        Jackie





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



        ------------------------------------
        Posted by: "Donna Ransome" <mailto:djransome@...> <djransome@...>
        ------------------------------------

        AquaticLife � A great way to share experience & ask ?s

        Join us on our Facebook page...https://www.facebook.com/AquaticLifeGroup

        Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You.
        ���`�.��.><((((�>.���`�.��.���`�.�><((((�> �.���`�.�. , .���`�..><((((�>
        PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <-
        <�((((><.���`�.��.���`�.�<�((((><�.���`�.�. , .���`�..<�((((><���`�.��.
        We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter.

        If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page.

        Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com <mailto:aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com> to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email

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        ------------------------------------

        Yahoo Groups Links



        <mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Jackie actjak2@... [AquaticLife]

        Friday, September 02, 2016 3:19 PM

        Hello,



        Looking for some advise. My canister just crapped out after 2 years this August. It was an Aquatop AF series. Not sure I want to go that route again, but....... I shopped today and brought home this cheap POS, that I will be returning asap.

        I have a 90 gal freshwater tank.



        Heading to the local Pet shops now to look.



        Sincerely,

        Jackie















        <mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Trevor Holyoak trevor@... [AquaticLife]

        Friday, September 02, 2016 4:14 PM

        I also like the Rena Filstar XP series. I've been running an XP3 for close to 18 years, I believe.

        - Trevor





        <mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> 'Donna Ransome' djransome@... [AquaticLife]

        Friday, September 02, 2016 4:02 PM

        I like the Rena Filstar XP canisters. I have been running 6 of then for 10 years now…so far so good.



        From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
        Sent: Friday, September 2, 2016 5:19 PM
        To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
        Subject: [AquaticLife] new canister





        Hello,



        Looking for some advise. My canister just crapped out after 2 years this August. It was an Aquatop AF series. Not sure I want to go that route again, but....... I shopped today and brought home this cheap POS, that I will be returning asap.

        I have a 90 gal freshwater tank.



        Heading to the local Pet shops now to look.



        Sincerely,

        Jackie





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



        ------------------------------------
        Posted by: "Donna Ransome" <mailto:djransome@...> <djransome@...>
        ------------------------------------

        AquaticLife � A great way to share experience & ask ?s

        Join us on our Facebook page...https://www.facebook.com/AquaticLifeGroup

        Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You.
        ���`�.��.><((((�>.���`�.��.���`�.�><((((�> �.���`�.�. , .���`�..><((((�>
        PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <-
        <�((((><.���`�.��.���`�.�<�((((><�.���`�.�. , .���`�..<�((((><���`�.��.
        We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter.

        If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page.

        Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com <mailto:aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com> to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email

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        ------------------------------------

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        <mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Jackie actjak2@... [AquaticLife]

        Friday, September 02, 2016 3:19 PM

        Hello,



        Looking for some advise. My canister just crapped out after 2 years this August. It was an Aquatop AF series. Not sure I want to go that route again, but....... I shopped today and brought home this cheap POS, that I will be returning asap.

        I have a 90 gal freshwater tank.



        Heading to the local Pet shops now to look.



        Sincerely,

        Jackie





        --

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        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 57082 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 9/3/2016
        Subject: Re: new canister

        Hi Trevor,

        I'm sorry if I appeared to say Eheim & Fluval were superior to Rena [or API] it certainly wasn't intended to come across that way-indeed I've often seen excellent reviews of the XP3 but as I don't have any practical experience I can't comment objectively.

         John<o)))<

        On 03 September 2016 at 08:13 "'Donna Ransome' djransome@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

         

        I have Eheims as well and prefer the XP filters. Not just because they are less expensive, but also the configuration is easier to maintain than the Eheims.

        From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
        Sent: Saturday, September 3, 2016 1:01 AM
        To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] new canister

        OK, perhaps you were replying to the wrong message. It appeared that you were saying that Eheim and Fluval were superior to the Rena Filstar line because they were name brands, since you were responding to my message saying my Rena Filstar XP3 is now 18 years old and still going strong.

        A lot of people here seem to be biased towards Eheim and Fluval, but the only people that have spoken of actual experience in longevity use the Rena Filstar XP line, which is less expensive.

        - Trevor

        SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@... <mailto:simmonds.john@...> [AquaticLife] wrote:

        It is but I don't feel qualified to comment because I've never had one & know nothing about them.

        John<o)))<

        On 02 September 2016 at 23:54 "Trevor Holyoak trevor@... <mailto:trevor@...> [AquaticLife]" <mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

        Since when is API not a "name brand"?

        <mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@... [AquaticLife]

        Friday, September 02, 2016 4:28 PM

        I would agree with recommending Eheim or Fluval-I've used various models from both manufacturers for years. It is well worth paying a little more for a name brand to take care of your fish in my opinion & that's coming from someone who buys mostly 'own brand' groceries!!

        John<o)))<

        On 02 September 2016 at 23:14 "Trevor Holyoak trevor@... <mailto:trevor@...> [AquaticLife]" <mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

        I also like the Rena Filstar XP series. I've been running an XP3 for close to 18 years, I believe.

        - Trevor

        <mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> 'Donna Ransome' djransome@... [AquaticLife]

        Friday, September 02, 2016 4:02 PM

        I like the Rena Filstar XP canisters. I have been running 6 of then for 10 years now…so far so good.

        From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
        Sent: Friday, September 2, 2016 5:19 PM
        To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
        Subject: [AquaticLife] new canister

        Hello,

        Looking for some advise. My canister just crapped out after 2 years this August. It was an Aquatop AF series. Not sure I want to go that route again, but....... I shopped today and brought home this cheap POS, that I will be returning asap.

        I have a 90 gal freshwater tank.

        Heading to the local Pet shops now to look.

        Sincerely,

        Jackie

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

        ------------------------------------
        Posted by: "Donna Ransome" <mailto:djransome@...> <djransome@...>
        ------------------------------------

        AquaticLife � A great way to share experience & ask ?s

        Join us on our Facebook page...https://www.facebook.com/AquaticLifeGroup

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        PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <-
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        We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter.

        If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page.

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        <mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Jackie actjak2@... [AquaticLife]

        Friday, September 02, 2016 3:19 PM

        Hello,

        Looking for some advise. My canister just crapped out after 2 years this August. It was an Aquatop AF series. Not sure I want to go that route again, but....... I shopped today and brought home this cheap POS, that I will be returning asap.

        I have a 90 gal freshwater tank.

        Heading to the local Pet shops now to look.

        Sincerely,

        Jackie

        <mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Trevor Holyoak trevor@... [AquaticLife]

        Friday, September 02, 2016 4:14 PM

        I also like the Rena Filstar XP series. I've been running an XP3 for close to 18 years, I believe.

        - Trevor

        <mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> 'Donna Ransome' djransome@... [AquaticLife]

        Friday, September 02, 2016 4:02 PM

        I like the Rena Filstar XP canisters. I have been running 6 of then for 10 years now…so far so good.

        From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
        Sent: Friday, September 2, 2016 5:19 PM
        To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
        Subject: [AquaticLife] new canister

        Hello,

        Looking for some advise. My canister just crapped out after 2 years this August. It was an Aquatop AF series. Not sure I want to go that route again, but....... I shopped today and brought home this cheap POS, that I will be returning asap.

        I have a 90 gal freshwater tank.

        Heading to the local Pet shops now to look.

        Sincerely,

        Jackie

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

        ------------------------------------
        Posted by: "Donna Ransome" <mailto:djransome@...> <djransome@...>
        ------------------------------------

        AquaticLife � A great way to share experience & ask ?s

        Join us on our Facebook page...https://www.facebook.com/AquaticLifeGroup

        Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You.
        ���`�.��.><((((�>.���`�.��.���`�.�><((((�> �.���`�.�. , .���`�..><((((�>
        PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <-
        <�((((><.���`�.��.���`�.�<�((((><�.���`�.�. , .���`�..<�((((><���`�.��.
        We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter.

        If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page.

        Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com <mailto:aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com> to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email

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        Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com <mailto:aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com> to receive individual e-mails.
        ------------------------------------

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        <mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Jackie actjak2@... [AquaticLife]

        Friday, September 02, 2016 3:19 PM

        Hello,

        Looking for some advise. My canister just crapped out after 2 years this August. It was an Aquatop AF series. Not sure I want to go that route again, but....... I shopped today and brought home this cheap POS, that I will be returning asap.

        I have a 90 gal freshwater tank.

        Heading to the local Pet shops now to look.

        Sincerely,

        Jackie

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        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


         


         

        Group: AquaticLife Message: 57083 From: sevenspringss Date: 9/3/2016
        Subject: Re: new canister
        Kevin (and I'd encourage you to sign your name please),
         
        Why do you state that a Fluval 406 cannot be found for under $199.00, when I had just finished posting finding this model Fluval at Drs Foster & Smith @ $189.99.  Unless Drs Foster & Smith very recently raised their price on the canister, sooner than I've received my latest catalog from them, I have to assume they still sell this filter at the price quoted.  You don't say where the Eheim 2217 can be found at under $150, but this discount retailer who sells the Fluval 406 lower than you indicated could be found, has this Eheim 2217 priced higher than you indicate can be found, @ $159.99   
         
        Ray
         
         
        In a message dated 9/2/2016 11:23:18 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
         

        eheim 2217 is fairly comparable to Fluval 406. you can get a 2217 or (for less) a 2215 for under 150.00. a fluval 406 cannot be found for under 199.00 and go up quickly from there. i have 9 2217s, the oldest is 19 and runs fine. i had many fluval 404s, 405s and while they worked they were no match for the 2217s. everyone is going to have their own opinion as to which is the better brand, go to an online web site and look at customer ratings as they can be informative.


        On 9/2/2016 5:19 PM, Jackie actjak2@... [AquaticLife] wrote:
         
        Hello,

         Looking for some advise. My canister just crapped out after 2 years this August. It was an Aquatop AF series. Not sure I want to go that route again, but.......        I shopped today and brought home this cheap POS, that I will be returning asap.
        I have a 90 gal freshwater tank.

        Heading to the local Pet shops now to look.

        Sincerely,
        Jackie

        -- 
        "Never use a big word when a monosyllabic diminutive will suffice."
        
        
        If it turns out that we really are alone in the universe, doesn't it seem like an awful waste of space?"
        
        
        Stupidity is a lot like nuclear power; it can be used for good or evil but either way you wouldn't want to get any on you>"
        
        
        
        
        ><((((º>`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·...¸><((((º>¸.
        ·´¯`·.¸. , . .·´¯`·.. ><((((º>`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·...¸><((((º>

        Group: AquaticLife Message: 57084 From: Trevor Holyoak Date: 9/3/2016
        Subject: Re: new canister
        No problem. Sorry if I came across a little strong last night. :)

        - Trevor

        SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@... [AquaticLife] wrote:

        Hi Trevor,

        I'm sorry if I appeared to say Eheim & Fluval were superior to Rena [or API] it certainly wasn't intended to come across that way-indeed I've often seen excellent reviews of the XP3 but as I don't have any practical experience I can't comment objectively.

         John<o)))<

        On 03 September 2016 at 08:13 "'Donna Ransome' djransome@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

         

        I have Eheims as well and prefer the XP filters. Not just because they are less expensive, but also the configuration is easier to maintain than the Eheims.

        From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
        Sent: Saturday, September 3, 2016 1:01 AM
        To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] new canister

        OK, perhaps you were replying to the wrong message. It appeared that you were saying that Eheim and Fluval were superior to the Rena Filstar line because they were name brands, since you were responding to my message saying my Rena Filstar XP3 is now 18 years old and still going strong.

        A lot of people here seem to be biased towards Eheim and Fluval, but the only people that have spoken of actual experience in longevity use the Rena Filstar XP line, which is less expensive.

        - Trevor

        SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@... <mailto:simmonds.john@...> [AquaticLife] wrote:

        It is but I don't feel qualified to comment because I've never had one & know nothing about them.

        John<o)))<

        On 02 September 2016 at 23:54 "Trevor Holyoak trevor@... <mailto:trevor@...> [AquaticLife]" <mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

        Since when is API not a "name brand"?

        <mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@... [AquaticLife]

        Friday, September 02, 2016 4:28 PM

        I would agree with recommending Eheim or Fluval-I've used various models from both manufacturers for years. It is well worth paying a little more for a name brand to take care of your fish in my opinion & that's coming from someone who buys mostly 'own brand' groceries!!

        John<o)))<

        On 02 September 2016 at 23:14 "Trevor Holyoak trevor@... <mailto:trevor@...> [AquaticLife]" <mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

        I also like the Rena Filstar XP series. I've been running an XP3 for close to 18 years, I believe.

        - Trevor

        <mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> 'Donna Ransome' djransome@... [AquaticLife]

        Friday, September 02, 2016 4:02 PM

        I like the Rena Filstar XP canisters. I have been running 6 of then for 10 years now…so far so good.

        From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
        Sent: Friday, September 2, 2016 5:19 PM
        To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
        Subject: [AquaticLife] new canister

        Hello,

        Looking for some advise. My canister just crapped out after 2 years this August. It was an Aquatop AF series. Not sure I want to go that route again, but....... I shopped today and brought home this cheap POS, that I will be returning asap.

        I have a 90 gal freshwater tank.

        Heading to the local Pet shops now to look.

        Sincerely,

        Jackie

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

        ------------------------------------
        Posted by: "Donna Ransome" <mailto:djransome@...> <djransome@...>
        ------------------------------------

        AquaticLife � A great way to share experience & ask ?s

        Join us on our Facebook page...https://www.facebook.com/AquaticLifeGroup

        Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You.
        ���`�.��.><((((�>.���`�.��.���`�.�><((((�> �.���`�.�. , .���`�..><((((�>
        PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <-
        <�((((><.���`�.��.���`�.�<�((((><�.���`�.�. , .���`�..<�((((><���`�.��.
        We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter.

        If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page.

        Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com <mailto:aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com> to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email

        Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies.

        Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com <mailto:aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com> to receive individual e-mails.
        ------------------------------------

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        <mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Jackie actjak2@... [AquaticLife]

        Friday, September 02, 2016 3:19 PM

        Hello,

        Looking for some advise. My canister just crapped out after 2 years this August. It was an Aquatop AF series. Not sure I want to go that route again, but....... I shopped today and brought home this cheap POS, that I will be returning asap.

        I have a 90 gal freshwater tank.

        Heading to the local Pet shops now to look.

        Sincerely,

        Jackie

        <mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Trevor Holyoak trevor@... [AquaticLife]

        Friday, September 02, 2016 4:14 PM

        I also like the Rena Filstar XP series. I've been running an XP3 for close to 18 years, I believe.

        - Trevor

        <mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> 'Donna Ransome' djransome@... [AquaticLife]

        Friday, September 02, 2016 4:02 PM

        I like the Rena Filstar XP canisters. I have been running 6 of then for 10 years now…so far so good.

        From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
        Sent: Friday, September 2, 2016 5:19 PM
        To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
        Subject: [AquaticLife] new canister

        Hello,

        Looking for some advise. My canister just crapped out after 2 years this August. It was an Aquatop AF series. Not sure I want to go that route again, but....... I shopped today and brought home this cheap POS, that I will be returning asap.

        I have a 90 gal freshwater tank.

        Heading to the local Pet shops now to look.

        Sincerely,

        Jackie

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

        ------------------------------------
        Posted by: "Donna Ransome" <mailto:djransome@...> <djransome@...>
        ------------------------------------

        AquaticLife � A great way to share experience & ask ?s

        Join us on our Facebook page...https://www.facebook.com/AquaticLifeGroup

        Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You.
        ���`�.��.><((((�>.���`�.��.���`�.�><((((�> �.���`�.�. , .���`�..><((((�>
        PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <-
        <�((((><.���`�.��.���`�.�<�((((><�.���`�.�. , .���`�..<�((((><���`�.��.
        We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter.

        If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page.

        Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com <mailto:aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com> to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email

        Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies.

        Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com <mailto:aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com> to receive individual e-mails.
        ------------------------------------

        Yahoo Groups Links

        <mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Jackie actjak2@... [AquaticLife]

        Friday, September 02, 2016 3:19 PM

        Hello,

        Looking for some advise. My canister just crapped out after 2 years this August. It was an Aquatop AF series. Not sure I want to go that route again, but....... I shopped today and brought home this cheap POS, that I will be returning asap.

        I have a 90 gal freshwater tank.

        Heading to the local Pet shops now to look.

        Sincerely,

        Jackie

        --

        Ham Radio Podcasts for Android
        http://bit.ly/hamradiopodcasts
        LDS Podcasts Free for Android and Kindle Fire
        http://www.holyoak.com/ldspodcasts

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        Sent from <https://www.postbox-inc.com/?utm_source=email&utm_medium=siglink&utm_campaign=reach> Postbox

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


         


         


        --
        Sent from Postbox
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 57085 From: Trevor Holyoak Date: 9/3/2016
        Subject: Re: new canister
        No problem. Sorry if I came across a little strong last night. :)

        - Trevor

        SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@... [AquaticLife] wrote:

        Hi Trevor,

        I'm sorry if I appeared to say Eheim & Fluval were superior to Rena [or API] it certainly wasn't intended to come across that way-indeed I've often seen excellent reviews of the XP3 but as I don't have any practical experience I can't comment objectively.

         John<o)))<

        On 03 September 2016 at 08:13 "'Donna Ransome' djransome@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

         

        I have Eheims as well and prefer the XP filters. Not just because they are less expensive, but also the configuration is easier to maintain than the Eheims.

        From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
        Sent: Saturday, September 3, 2016 1:01 AM
        To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] new canister

        OK, perhaps you were replying to the wrong message. It appeared that you were saying that Eheim and Fluval were superior to the Rena Filstar line because they were name brands, since you were responding to my message saying my Rena Filstar XP3 is now 18 years old and still going strong.

        A lot of people here seem to be biased towards Eheim and Fluval, but the only people that have spoken of actual experience in longevity use the Rena Filstar XP line, which is less expensive.

        - Trevor

        SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@... <mailto:simmonds.john@...> [AquaticLife] wrote:

        It is but I don't feel qualified to comment because I've never had one & know nothing about them.

        John<o)))<

        On 02 September 2016 at 23:54 "Trevor Holyoak trevor@... <mailto:trevor@...> [AquaticLife]" <mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

        Since when is API not a "name brand"?

        <mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@... [AquaticLife]

        Friday, September 02, 2016 4:28 PM

        I would agree with recommending Eheim or Fluval-I've used various models from both manufacturers for years. It is well worth paying a little more for a name brand to take care of your fish in my opinion & that's coming from someone who buys mostly 'own brand' groceries!!

        John<o)))<

        On 02 September 2016 at 23:14 "Trevor Holyoak trevor@... <mailto:trevor@...> [AquaticLife]" <mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

        I also like the Rena Filstar XP series. I've been running an XP3 for close to 18 years, I believe.

        - Trevor

        <mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> 'Donna Ransome' djransome@... [AquaticLife]

        Friday, September 02, 2016 4:02 PM

        I like the Rena Filstar XP canisters. I have been running 6 of then for 10 years now…so far so good.

        From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
        Sent: Friday, September 2, 2016 5:19 PM
        To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
        Subject: [AquaticLife] new canister

        Hello,

        Looking for some advise. My canister just crapped out after 2 years this August. It was an Aquatop AF series. Not sure I want to go that route again, but....... I shopped today and brought home this cheap POS, that I will be returning asap.

        I have a 90 gal freshwater tank.

        Heading to the local Pet shops now to look.

        Sincerely,

        Jackie

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

        ------------------------------------
        Posted by: "Donna Ransome" <mailto:djransome@...> <djransome@...>
        ------------------------------------

        AquaticLife � A great way to share experience & ask ?s

        Join us on our Facebook page...https://www.facebook.com/AquaticLifeGroup

        Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You.
        ���`�.��.><((((�>.���`�.��.���`�.�><((((�> �.���`�.�. , .���`�..><((((�>
        PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <-
        <�((((><.���`�.��.���`�.�<�((((><�.���`�.�. , .���`�..<�((((><���`�.��.
        We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter.

        If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page.

        Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com <mailto:aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com> to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email

        Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies.

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        <mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Jackie actjak2@... [AquaticLife]

        Friday, September 02, 2016 3:19 PM

        Hello,

        Looking for some advise. My canister just crapped out after 2 years this August. It was an Aquatop AF series. Not sure I want to go that route again, but....... I shopped today and brought home this cheap POS, that I will be returning asap.

        I have a 90 gal freshwater tank.

        Heading to the local Pet shops now to look.

        Sincerely,

        Jackie

        <mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Trevor Holyoak trevor@... [AquaticLife]

        Friday, September 02, 2016 4:14 PM

        I also like the Rena Filstar XP series. I've been running an XP3 for close to 18 years, I believe.

        - Trevor

        <mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> 'Donna Ransome' djransome@... [AquaticLife]

        Friday, September 02, 2016 4:02 PM

        I like the Rena Filstar XP canisters. I have been running 6 of then for 10 years now…so far so good.

        From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
        Sent: Friday, September 2, 2016 5:19 PM
        To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
        Subject: [AquaticLife] new canister

        Hello,

        Looking for some advise. My canister just crapped out after 2 years this August. It was an Aquatop AF series. Not sure I want to go that route again, but....... I shopped today and brought home this cheap POS, that I will be returning asap.

        I have a 90 gal freshwater tank.

        Heading to the local Pet shops now to look.

        Sincerely,

        Jackie

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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        <mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Jackie actjak2@... [AquaticLife]

        Friday, September 02, 2016 3:19 PM

        Hello,

        Looking for some advise. My canister just crapped out after 2 years this August. It was an Aquatop AF series. Not sure I want to go that route again, but....... I shopped today and brought home this cheap POS, that I will be returning asap.

        I have a 90 gal freshwater tank.

        Heading to the local Pet shops now to look.

        Sincerely,

        Jackie

        --

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        Group: AquaticLife Message: 57086 From: ptimlin Date: 9/3/2016
        Subject: Re: new canister
        Hi Jackie,

        I will just add I too have had many years of positive experience with both Fluval (although with an older line no longer in production) and Eheim canisters. No knock against any other brands since I haven't tried them, but my current Eheim has been running for well over a decade now and it replaced a Fluval not because there was anything wrong with the Fluval but at the time I ran across a great deal on the Eheim and wanted to try it out. The Fluval also ran many years without issues.

        Best of luck on whatever you get,
        Patrick
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 57087 From: Jan Kuenzl Date: 9/3/2016
        Subject: Oceans: Fascinating and Endangered (Video)
        Dear Ocean Friends,

        Within the German non-profit project WissensWerte, we just published a
        hand drawn, animated short-film called Awesome Oceans. It shows how
        fascinating this habitat is, but also how human behaviour endangers it.
        The video can be watched here: https://youtu.be/UHYBH0Vn-2Y

        It has a Creative Commons license and can be used and shared for free in
        any way.

        You can download it here: http://edeos.org/en/portfolio/awesome-oceans/

        If you like it, please consider sharing it with other people.

        Best regards,

        Jan


        --

        CEO
        edeos- digital education

        Schonensche Str. 3
        10439 Berlin/ Germany
        Tel: 0049 30/ 68 00 43 22
        Mob: 0049 176/ 207 906 28
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 57088 From: sevenspringss Date: 9/3/2016
        Subject: Re: new canister
        Looks like everybody has their own personal favorites, not to degrade any of the other ones mentioned, as all of them recommended appear to have great merit and long usage.  Really a had decision on which canister to buy, but maybe the old adage of "you get what you pay for" might help.  Quality often comes at a price, and while all of these mentioned here seem to be good quality products, it may just come down to one's own budget in what they can afford.  I'd suggest weighing some of the recommendations though, against each other.
         
        Ray
         
         
        In a message dated 9/3/2016 11:54:16 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
         

        Hi Jackie,


        I will just add I too have had many years of positive experience with both Fluval (although with an older line no longer in production) and Eheim canisters. No knock against any other brands since I haven't tried them, but my current Eheim has been running for well over a decade now and it replaced a Fluval not because there was anything wrong with the Fluval but at the time I ran across a great deal on the Eheim and wanted to try it out. The Fluval also ran many years without issues.

        Best of luck on whatever you get,
        Patrick

         
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 57089 From: Cheryl Kautz Date: 9/3/2016
        Subject: Re: new canister

        Eheim Classic Series Canister Filters

        at Big Al's Fish Store. I always go shopping there all the time. It's my favorite store. They have everything for the fish supplies. I used it my old Fluval canister for a few years and it just quit. However I haven't try Eheim. 

        Cheryl



        On Sat, Sep 3, 2016 at 10:59 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]
        <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
         

        Looks like everybody has their own personal favorites, not to degrade any of the other ones mentioned, as all of them recommended appear to have great merit and long usage.  Really a had decision on which canister to buy, but maybe the old adage of "you get what you pay for" might help.  Quality often comes at a price, and while all of these mentioned here seem to be good quality products, it may just come down to one's own budget in what they can afford.  I'd suggest weighing some of the recommendations though, against each other.
         
        Ray
         
         
        In a message dated 9/3/2016 11:54:16 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
         

        Hi Jackie,


        I will just add I too have had many years of positive experience with both Fluval (although with an older line no longer in production) and Eheim canisters. No knock against any other brands since I haven't tried them, but my current Eheim has been running for well over a decade now and it replaced a Fluval not because there was anything wrong with the Fluval but at the time I ran across a great deal on the Eheim and wanted to try it out. The Fluval also ran many years without issues.

        Best of luck on whatever you get,
        Patrick

         
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 57090 From: sevenspringss Date: 9/3/2016
        Subject: Re: new canister
        Too bad there's not a program for grammar check, as spell check does nothing to alert for missing letters that still results in another correctly spelled word -- like, Really a HAD decision, when it should have been, Really a HARD decision.  Oh well, can't win 'em all. 
         
        Ray
         
         
        In a message dated 9/3/2016 12:59:39 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
         

        Looks like everybody has their own personal favorites, not to degrade any of the other ones mentioned, as all of them recommended appear to have great merit and long usage.  Really a had decision on which canister to buy, but maybe the old adage of "you get what you pay for" might help.  Quality often comes at a price, and while all of these mentioned here seem to be good quality products, it may just come down to one's own budget in what they can afford.  I'd suggest weighing some of the recommendations though, against each other.
         
        Ray
         
         
        In a message dated 9/3/2016 11:54:16 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
         

        Hi Jackie,


        I will just add I too have had many years of positive experience with both Fluval (although with an older line no longer in production) and Eheim canisters. No knock against any other brands since I haven't tried them, but my current Eheim has been running for well over a decade now and it replaced a Fluval not because there was anything wrong with the Fluval but at the time I ran across a great deal on the Eheim and wanted to try it out. The Fluval also ran many years without issues.

        Best of luck on whatever you get,
        Patrick

         

         
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 57091 From: Kevin Boyle Date: 9/3/2016
        Subject: Re: new canister

        current prices This is for Ray's benefit since he was apparently unable to do it

        Kens.com

        406 199.99           2217    149.99

        big als online

        406 199              2217              139.99

        foster and smith

        406    199.99         2217   169.99

        that pet place

        406      199.99        2217  169.99

        the bottom line is that if you shop around you can get a great price on Eheim. Fluval apparently sets their own prices

        very rarely do you see a 406 for other than 199.99, and if it is it's going to be higher 99.9 % of the time


        On 9/2/2016 6:06 PM, Kevin Boyle synoscats@... [AquaticLife] wrote:
         

        you would save a lot of money by buying, www.kensfish.com is very reliable. problem of course is that we are at the beginning of a holiday weekend. eheim 2217 would be a great choice for a 90 gal. comes with everything you would need. they are around 150.00, in a store you are going to pay probably 250.00. online will also have more of a selection than most stores. most of the canisters for sale these days are pretty reliable


        On 9/2/2016 5:19 PM, Jackie actjak2@... [AquaticLife] wrote:
         
        Hello,

         Looking for some advise. My canister just crapped out after 2 years this August. It was an Aquatop AF series. Not sure I want to go that route again, but.......        I shopped today and brought home this cheap POS, that I will be returning asap.
        I have a 90 gal freshwater tank.

        Heading to the local Pet shops now to look.

        Sincerely,
        Jackie

        -- 
        "Never use a big word when a monosyllabic diminutive will suffice."
        
        
        If it turns out that we really are alone in the universe, doesn't it seem like an awful waste of space?"
        
        
        Stupidity is a lot like nuclear power; it can be used for good or evil but either way you wouldn't want to get any on you>"
        
        
        
        
        ><((((º>`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·...¸><((((º>¸.
        ·´¯`·.¸. , . .·´¯`·.. ><((((º>`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·...¸><((((º>

        -- 
        "Never use a big word when a monosyllabic diminutive will suffice."
        
        
        If it turns out that we really are alone in the universe, doesn't it seem like an awful waste of space?"
        
        
        Stupidity is a lot like nuclear power; it can be used for good or evil but either way you wouldn't want to get any on you>"
        
        
        
        
        ><((((º>`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·...¸><((((º>¸.
        ·´¯`·.¸. , . .·´¯`·.. ><((((º>`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·...¸><((((º>
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 57092 From: Kevin Boyle Date: 9/3/2016
        Subject: Re: new canister

        it ain't there now @ 189.00, as far as the price on the eheim look around! (why do you have to be so anal and find fault with everything?)


        On 9/3/2016 6:17 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] wrote:
         

        Kevin (and I'd encourage you to sign your name please),
         
        Why do you state that a Fluval 406 cannot be found for under $199.00, when I had just finished posting finding this model Fluval at Drs Foster & Smith @ $189.99.  Unless Drs Foster & Smith very recently raised their price on the canister, sooner than I've received my latest catalog from them, I have to assume they still sell this filter at the price quoted.  You don't say where the Eheim 2217 can be found at under $150, but this discount retailer who sells the Fluval 406 lower than you indicated could be found, has this Eheim 2217 priced higher than you indicate can be found, @ $159.99   
         
        Ray
         
         
        In a message dated 9/2/2016 11:23:18 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
         

        eheim 2217 is fairly comparable to Fluval 406. you can get a 2217 or (for less) a 2215 for under 150.00. a fluval 406 cannot be found for under 199.00 and go up quickly from there. i have 9 2217s, the oldest is 19 and runs fine. i had many fluval 404s, 405s and while they worked they were no match for the 2217s. everyone is going to have their own opinion as to which is the better brand, go to an online web site and look at customer ratings as they can be informative.


        On 9/2/2016 5:19 PM, Jackie actjak2@... [AquaticLife] wrote:
         
        Hello,

         Looking for some advise. My canister just crapped out after 2 years this August. It was an Aquatop AF series. Not sure I want to go that route again, but.......        I shopped today and brought home this cheap POS, that I will be returning asap.
        I have a 90 gal freshwater tank.

        Heading to the local Pet shops now to look.

        Sincerely,
        Jackie

        -- 
        "Never use a big word when a monosyllabic diminutive will suffice."
        
        
        If it turns out that we really are alone in the universe, doesn't it seem like an awful waste of space?"
        
        
        Stupidity is a lot like nuclear power; it can be used for good or evil but either way you wouldn't want to get any on you>"
        
        
        
        
        ><((((º>`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·...¸><((((º>¸.
        ·´¯`·.¸. , . .·´¯`·.. ><((((º>`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·...¸><((((º>

        -- 
        "Never use a big word when a monosyllabic diminutive will suffice."
        
        
        If it turns out that we really are alone in the universe, doesn't it seem like an awful waste of space?"
        
        
        Stupidity is a lot like nuclear power; it can be used for good or evil but either way you wouldn't want to get any on you>"
        
        
        
        
        ><((((º>`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·...¸><((((º>¸.
        ·´¯`·.¸. , . .·´¯`·.. ><((((º>`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·...¸><((((º>
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 57093 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 9/3/2016
        Subject: Re: new canister

        Ha ha! I'm with you there Ray, some time ago I had a spell checker that allowed you to imput words & I inadvertantly entered 'oyu' instead of you as I frequently type that word in as such. The upshot of this was that every time I needed to spell check an email I had to proof-read it in it's entirety because I didn't know how to remove the incorrect word from the spell checker.

         John<o)))<

        On 03 September 2016 at 20:58 "sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

         

         

        Too bad there's not a program for grammar check, as spell check does nothing to alert for missing letters that still results in another correctly spelled word -- like, Really a HAD decision, when it should have been, Really a HARD decision.  Oh well, can't win 'em all. 
         
        Ray
         
         
        In a message dated 9/3/2016 12:59:39 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
         

         

        Looks like everybody has their own personal favorites, not to degrade any of the other ones mentioned, as all of them recommended appear to have great merit and long usage.  Really a had decision on which canister to buy, but maybe the old adage of "you get what you pay for" might help.  Quality often comes at a price, and while all of these mentioned here seem to be good quality products, it may just come down to one's own budget in what they can afford.  I'd suggest weighing some of the recommendations though, against each other.
         
        Ray
         
         
        In a message dated 9/3/2016 11:54:16 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
         

        Hi Jackie,


        I will just add I too have had many years of positive experience with both Fluval (although with an older line no longer in production) and Eheim canisters. No knock against any other brands since I haven't tried them, but my current Eheim has been running for well over a decade now and it replaced a Fluval not because there was anything wrong with the Fluval but at the time I ran across a great deal on the Eheim and wanted to try it out. The Fluval also ran many years without issues.

        Best of luck on whatever you get,
        Patrick

         

         
         

         

         
         

         


         


         

        Group: AquaticLife Message: 57094 From: sevenspringss Date: 9/3/2016
        Subject: Re: new canister
        For the benefit of the members on here, It appears there's no reason to address Kevin's most recent posts nor to reply to him as it's been seen by the moderators with Yahoo's message to us that he unsubscribed from this group about an hour after sending his last message.  Probably all for the best, although it was appreciated that he did take the time to search out the canister prices at the various outlets which were discussed. 
         
        Ray 
         
         
        In a message dated 9/3/2016 7:21:17 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
         

        it ain't there now @ 189.00, as far as the price on the eheim look around! (why do you have to be so anal and find fault with everything?)


        On 9/3/2016 6:17 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] wrote:
         

        Kevin (and I'd encourage you to sign your name please),
         
        Why do you state that a Fluval 406 cannot be found for under $199.00, when I had just finished posting finding this model Fluval at Drs Foster & Smith @ $189.99.  Unless Drs Foster & Smith very recently raised their price on the canister, sooner than I've received my latest catalog from them, I have to assume they still sell this filter at the price quoted.  You don't say where the Eheim 2217 can be found at under $150, but this discount retailer who sells the Fluval 406 lower than you indicated could be found, has this Eheim 2217 priced higher than you indicate can be found, @ $159.99   
         
        Ray
         
         
        In a message dated 9/2/2016 11:23:18 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
         

        eheim 2217 is fairly comparable to Fluval 406. you can get a 2217 or (for less) a 2215 for under 150.00. a fluval 406 cannot be found for under 199.00 and go up quickly from there. i have 9 2217s, the oldest is 19 and runs fine. i had many fluval 404s, 405s and while they worked they were no match for the 2217s. everyone is going to have their own opinion as to which is the better brand, go to an online web site and look at customer ratings as they can be informative.


        On 9/2/2016 5:19 PM, Jackie actjak2@... [AquaticLife] wrote:
         
        Hello,

         Looking for some advise. My canister just crapped out after 2 years this August. It was an Aquatop AF series. Not sure I want to go that route again, but.......        I shopped today and brought home this cheap POS, that I will be returning asap.
        I have a 90 gal freshwater tank.

        Heading to the local Pet shops now to look.

        Sincerely,
        Jackie

        -- 
        "Never use a big word when a monosyllabic diminutive will suffice."
        
        
        If it turns out that we really are alone in the universe, doesn't it seem like an awful waste of space?"
        
        
        Stupidity is a lot like nuclear power; it can be used for good or evil but either way you wouldn't want to get any on you>"
        
        
        
        
        ><((((º>`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·...¸><((((º>¸.
        ·´¯`·.¸. , . .·´¯`·.. ><((((º>`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·...¸><((((º>

        -- 
        "Never use a big word when a monosyllabic diminutive will suffice."
        
        
        If it turns out that we really are alone in the universe, doesn't it seem like an awful waste of space?"
        
        
        Stupidity is a lot like nuclear power; it can be used for good or evil but either way you wouldn't want to get any on you>"
        
        
        
        
        ><((((º>`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·...¸><((((º>¸.
        ·´¯`·.¸. , . .·´¯`·.. ><((((º>`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·...¸><((((º>

         
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 57095 From: ptimlin Date: 9/4/2016
        Subject: PLEASE TRIM YOUR REPLIES !!!

        While I am not a moderator of the group, I would like to ask everyone to please try and trim the quoted part of your replies. As a receiver of the digest, I am seeing replies with 2 or 3 or more previous posts tacked onto the end of a single reply. And when several people do it, you then see the same posts re-quoted over and over in a single overly long digest.


        Group: AquaticLife Message: 57096 From: nonstopmom888 Date: 9/4/2016
        Subject: Clown pleco, how much food?

        Hi,

        We have a clown pleco in a 20 Gallon tank with 2 Mollies, 2 tetras, 2 rainbows and a guppy since approx. one year. He is rather shy but when I can catch a glimpse of him he looks ok. I just wonder how much I need to feed him. I feed the community tank during the day 2-3 times little amounts of different things and some of it (like part of little flakes) will end up on the floor. Usually I add 2-3 additional algae wafer in the evening just for the pleco, shortly before I switch of the lights. He also has driftwood in the tank....

        Does anybody else has clown plecos? How often and what do you usually feed him? Ours has a size of a few inches and does not grow anymore.


        Thanks for input

        Nora

        Group: AquaticLife Message: 57097 From: sevenspringss Date: 9/4/2016
        Subject: Re: Clown pleco, how much food?
        Clown Plecos grow to about 4".  If yours is near that size, it's not going to get much bigger.  They're omnivors but they do especially like this algae wafers.  As with most all Plecos, they also will feed on African and Asian driftwood, like Mopani or Manzanita and the like, available at most aquarium shops.  Some of these driftwoods release a lot of tannins though, but then too, you need to cure it before placing it in the tank.  This won't necessarily promote growth of the fish, but they get a lot of needed nutrients from it.  If you don't feel your Pleco is large enough yet for its age, besides the algae wafers, parts of little flakes falling to the bottom several times a day may not be enough food for this fish, when other fish usually scour the bottom too, after depleting the flakes on the surface.  Catfish are known to be nocturnal and will come out of hiding more readily at this time, after the lights are turned off.  I'd suggest adding a small size sinking pellet food to his diet.  While other fish will also enjoy it, the Pleco will have a better chance of getting his share after lights out if fed at that time.
         
        Ray   
         
         
         
        In a message dated 9/4/2016 4:21:31 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
         

        Hi,

        We have a clown pleco in a 20 Gallon tank with 2 Mollies, 2 tetras, 2 rainbows and a guppy since approx. one year. He is rather shy but when I can catch a glimpse of him he looks ok. I just wonder how much I need to feed him. I feed the community tank during the day 2-3 times little amounts of different things and some of it (like part of little flakes) will end up on the floor. Usually I add 2-3 additional algae wafer in the evening just for the pleco, shortly before I switch of the lights. He also has driftwood in the tank....

        Does anybody else has clown plecos? How often and what do you usually feed him? Ours has a size of a few inches and does not grow anymore.


        Thanks for input

        Nora

         
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 57098 From: ptimlin Date: 9/5/2016
        Subject: Re: Clown pleco, how much food?
        Great fish. I bought a pair back in 2004. I lost one I think earlier this year (or late last year). The other is still going strong. So they are a fish that can become long time residents in your tank. They don't get too bid like other common plecos and they do fine with out Clown Plecos (also unlike most other common plecos). While not "schooling" fish, I always found my pair would usually be in fairly close proximity of one another. 

        Anyway, back to your question. I try to drop in food specifically for them from time to time. As mentioned, sinking wafers and pellets work but as pointed out tend to be picked off by faster moving fish poking around the bottom. thawed and slightly cooked frozen green peas work well and even an occasional chunk of green bean when we have them for dinner. Other fish will eat those as well, but usually not as fast giving the pleco time to get some. 

        I also sometimes purposely overfeed certain flake and micro pellet foods so that some of it scatters and drifts down to the bottom.

        Dropping in an occasional sinking food either before you go to bed or first thing in the morning before the tank light is on. Although nocturnal I find mine are often out somewhere in the tank at all times of the day, even if not busy, they don't tend to hide and I always found mine not to be very shy (they would ignore me when I came close to the tank).

        One other trick some people use, although unfortunately summer is ending here in the USA, is to put a small tank or container out in partially sunny location and keep some driftwood in it. You could even decorate it with some sort of bog/swamp plant that grows up and out of the water, some duckweed, and stock it with some feeder guppies to keep mosquitos from growing in it. When the wood gets nice and algae covered, put it into your tank for the Plecos. If you have a couple pieces you can rotate them so one is always outside growing and the other is inside being eaten.

        Good luck with the Clown. As I said, great little fish.
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 57099 From: ptimlin Date: 9/6/2016
        Subject: Re: Clown pleco, how much food?
        As Ray pointed out, spell check won't flag the wrong word if it is otherwise spelled correctly...

        " They don't get too bid like other common plecos and they do fine with out Clown Plecos"

        should have read "They don't get too BIG like other common plecos and they fine with OTHER Clown Plecos."
         
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 57100 From: sevenspringss Date: 9/6/2016
        Subject: Re: Clown pleco, how much food?
        Okay, makes a little more sense now.   I figured out the typo with the "bid" needing the be "big," but I couldn't figure out the last part.
         
        Ray
         
         
        In a message dated 9/6/2016 9:27:46 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

        As Ray pointed out, spell check won't flag the wrong word if it is otherwise spelled correctly...


        " They don't get too bid like other common plecos and they do fine with out Clown Plecos"

        should have read "They don't get too BIG like other common plecos and they fine with OTHER Clown Plecos."
         

         
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 57101 From: Jackie Date: 9/8/2016
        Subject: new canister
        Thanks for all your input, it is greatly appreciated.

        Sincerely,
        Jackie
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 57102 From: angel2whitewings Date: 10/15/2016
        Subject: Re: Clown pleco, how much food?
        Just given 2 algae wafers or sinking pellets in the evenings. I have two snowflake plecos.  They aren't shy. Very actively looking for the bottom foods. Never had any problems with them for a few years. Including with my beautiful colorful guppies. My plecos are about 4". Great fishes that I loved them so much. 😊
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 57103 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 10/16/2016
        Subject: Patio Pond

        Hi Everyone,

         Some of you may be interested in a raised pond I built this Summer when seven large Goldfish, a Shubunkin & a Tench unexpectedly needed a new home-it was just the excuse I needed as I've wanted to do something like this for ages. I kept a photographic record of each stage of construction:              http://smg.photobucket.com/user/mrbushy/library/Patio%20Pond There are still a few cosmetic finishing touches to do such as hiding the pump hose behind the filter outlet, topping up another couple of inches or so, hiding the UV clarifier underneath the filter stand & installing an outside plug socket so we can shut the bedroom window but that should all be done in the next week or so. The pond is 375UK/450US gallons & measures 8 feet x 5.5 feet x 2 feet high & is built from 4x4 fence post timbers 6 layers high. Apart from a few minor details I copied this excellent YouTube video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iS9Km6ihAzk

        John<o)))<

        Group: AquaticLife Message: 57104 From: sevenspringss Date: 10/17/2016
        Subject: Re: Patio Pond
        Hi John,
         
        Real nice job on the pond, and a nice size too.  You should probably be able to keep the fish there through the Winter, although if you stand the chance that ponds freeze over in the Winter in your area, yours may freeze deeper only as it's above ground and has more exposure to the cold -- while not having the advantage of ground around its sides preventing this excessive heat loss.  I don't know if you're bothered by fish-eating birds where you are, but if so, you'll need to take precautions against these predators.  I have a pond here myself, which I built about 45 years ago.  Right now, I have a colony of Dwarf Sunfish in it, where they stay year 'round.  Over here, we may expect visits by Egrets and Blue Herons, both birds being notorious fish pond raiders.  Besides them, we can get Raccoons that love to eat fish if they can catch them.  You probably don't have Raccoons there, but you may have other such mammals that raid ponds by you. 
         
        Easy solutions for all these critters; as the large birds, especially the Blue Herons, are sensitive to anything brushing up against their legs, we just put four posts in the ground at each "corner" (even if the pond is roundish) of the pond -- about 8" high -- and string a length of monofilament nylon fishing line around the perimeter of the pond about 20 centimeters or so from the pond's edge.  As these birds almost invariably land a few meters away from a pond and then walk up to it, their legs hit this unseen fishing line and it spooks them into taking flight again.  Raccoons are another story.  While they enjoy a fish meal, and while they will fish for these pond fish with their forepaws, they don't actually like to go into the water themselves.  If the pond is made so that it's edges slope away more gradually -- and allow fish to come up into these shallows, they're easy pickings for a quick swipe of the Raccoon's well aimed paws.  But if the side of the pond drop off more steeply, there won't be any "shallows" for the fish to linger in; the fish will always remain somewhat deeper and out of reach.  Of course a dog in the backyard is always a deterrent to these creatures < g >.   
         
        A waterfall feature is always enjoyable to see as well as to hear.  Water Lilies are the finishing touch which always brings enjoyment to a pond keeper, but these should not be positioned near the effects of a waterfall as they won't thrive there.  I used to receive an excellent magazine published in England titled, "The Aquarist and the Pondkeeper."  There was also another one I used get from England by the name of "Water Life & Aquaria World."  I don't know if either of these two magazines are still being published, but the first one had lots of info on fish ponds.  Even if they're no longer published, you might be able to find back issues of them in your area if you have any interest in such literature.  Best of luck with your pond. 
         
        Ray    
         
         
        In a message dated 10/16/2016 8:03:53 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes: 

        Hi Everyone,

         Some of you may be interested in a raised pond I built this Summer when seven large Goldfish, a Shubunkin & a Tench unexpectedly needed a new home-it was just the excuse I needed as I've wanted to do something like this for ages. I kept a photographic record of each stage of construction:              http://smg.photobucket.com/user/mrbushy/library/Patio%20Pond There are still a few cosmetic finishing touches to do such as hiding the pump hose behind the filter outlet, topping up another couple of inches or so, hiding the UV clarifier underneath the filter stand & installing an outside plug socket so we can shut the bedroom window but that should all be done in the next week or so. The pond is 375UK/450US gallons & measures 8 feet x 5.5 feet x 2 feet high & is built from 4x4 fence post timbers 6 layers high. Apart from a few minor details I copied this excellent YouTube video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iS9Km6ihAzk

        John<o)))<

         
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 57105 From: Angela Cancilla Herschel Date: 10/18/2016
        Subject: ‘Monster’ 14-pound lobster caught near Bermuda after Hurricane

        ‘Monster’ 14-pound lobster caught near Bermuda after Hurricane

        [​
        https://www.youtube.com/watch? v=ylV9ff6y6_c
        ​]​


        Ciao, Angela Cancilla Herschel,   CPBC ,
        Member : IAATE  -  IAABC - WPT
        Southern California
         

        Being Kind is more important ...than being important. ~
        California Wildlife Center, volunteer  ~

        www.cawildlife.org

        Group: AquaticLife Message: 57106 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 10/19/2016
        Subject: Re: Patio Pond

        Hi Ray,

        Thanks for the kind words, you make some good points & hopefully I have thought of most things that can or may go wrong. We haven't had a bad winter in central England since 2010/11 but that's not to say we won't anytime soon. These fish had been in a thin above ground support pond since May 2015 & I took precautions for last Winter by installing in it a small floating pond heater & also lagging the entire perimiter with bubble wrap to give some insulation. I intend on doing the same method for this pond but in addition it has the advantages of not only the thick timbers but also the plywood & the liner underlay which I think should be fine. As you can see from the photos it is only a couple of feet from the house & is set a couple of feet below the garden proper so I'm thinking it is a sheltered location anyway.

        With regard to predators in the UK we are quite lucky compared to the States as we don't have Raccoons, Egrets, snakes or many of the other problems you folk have to deal with but we do have Herons which can be a great pest & also Mink/Otters. I did hear from someone a couple of years ago who thought his pond was being depleted by a snake but it turned out it was an eel!! The Herons are not a problem because the pond is way too near the house & they are notoriously timid, Otters & Mink are also nowhere in the vicinity. There are two cats here who have absolutely no interest in the fish but like to chase anything with wings so that's probably an advantage! You'll be pleased to learn that the pond is generally protected by a sturdy rigid plastic net clipped around the perimeter of the blue decking but I took it off for the photos. In the long term I'm looking to use an old security fence panel, remove the metal tubular edge & make a wooden frame so it simply sits on top of the decking. That would be even better than the netting as it would allow Dragon Flies & similar insects to escape once hatched because it has a wider grid pattern & yes there is already some larvae of some type swimming around. In fact within a couple of days of the filling there was a couple of water beetles in residence so they must have flown in. I take your point about trip wires to discourage the Herons on sunken ponds, several of the ponds I look afer have this deterrent with a couple completely criss-crossed by fishing line which makes the birds give up & find something easier to raid.

        The Water Lily you see came with the fish & was from the original pond, this Summer it has grown rapidly sending out 16 individual leaves & multiple flowers-I did plan on getting some more plants but I don't think the aquatic store would have many now the season is at an end but no matter-this pond is still like the Ritz for the fish compared to living in that support pond for 15 months. I made sure to position the plant in the quietest area possible, there is a slow vortex from the filter outlet that the fish love to meander in but by the time it gets to the plant corner it is almost spent. That corner also gets the best of the sunlight so come next year I'm thinking the plants will be really making their presence felt & giing some welcome shde for the fish. We've also got plans to decorate the outside of the pond with some climbing plants of some description. I hadn't heard of either of those publications you mentioned but Googling them I see "The Aquarist & Pond Keeper" still around until at least the mid 2000s but no sign of the other one.

        John<o)))<

        On 17 October 2016 at 11:30 "sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

         

         

        Hi John,
         
        Real nice job on the pond, and a nice size too.  You should probably be able to keep the fish there through the Winter, although if you stand the chance that ponds freeze over in the Winter in your area, yours may freeze deeper only as it's above ground and has more exposure to the cold -- while not having the advantage of ground around its sides preventing this excessive heat loss.  I don't know if you're bothered by fish-eating birds where you are, but if so, you'll need to take precautions against these predators.  I have a pond here myself, which I built about 45 years ago.  Right now, I have a colony of Dwarf Sunfish in it, where they stay year 'round.  Over here, we may expect visits by Egrets and Blue Herons, both birds being notorious fish pond raiders.  Besides them, we can get Raccoons that love to eat fish if they can catch them.  You probably don't have Raccoons there, but you may have other such mammals that raid ponds by you. 
         
        Easy solutions for all these critters; as the large birds, especially the Blue Herons, are sensitive to anything brushing up against their legs, we just put four posts in the ground at each "corner" (even if the pond is roundish) of the pond -- about 8" high -- and string a length of monofilament nylon fishing line around the perimeter of the pond about 20 centimeters or so from the pond's edge.  As these birds almost invariably land a few meters away from a pond and then walk up to it, their legs hit this unseen fishing line and it spooks them into taking flight again.  Raccoons are another story.  While they enjoy a fish meal, and while they will fish for these pond fish with their forepaws, they don't actually like to go into the water themselves.  If the pond is made so that it's edges slope away more gradually -- and allow fish to come up into these shallows, they're easy pickings for a quick swipe of the Raccoon's well aimed paws.  But if the side of the pond drop off more steeply, there won't be any "shallows" for the fish to linger in; the fish will always remain somewhat deeper and out of reach.  Of course a dog in the backyard is always a deterrent to these creatures < g >.   
         
        A waterfall feature is always enjoyable to see as well as to hear.  Water Lilies are the finishing touch which always brings enjoyment to a pond keeper, but these should not be positioned near the effects of a waterfall as they won't thrive there.  I used to receive an excellent magazine published in England titled, "The Aquarist and the Pondkeeper."  There was also another one I used get from England by the name of "Water Life & Aquaria World."  I don't know if either of these two magazines are still being published, but the first one had lots of info on fish ponds.  Even if they're no longer published, you might be able to find back issues of them in your area if you have any interest in such literature.  Best of luck with your pond. 
         
        Ray    
         
         
        In a message dated 10/16/2016 8:03:53 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes: 

         

        Hi Everyone,

         Some of you may be interested in a raised pond I built this Summer when seven large Goldfish, a Shubunkin & a Tench unexpectedly needed a new home-it was just the excuse I needed as I've wanted to do something like this for ages. I kept a photographic record of each stage of construction:              http://smg.photobucket.com/user/mrbushy/library/Patio%20Pond There are still a few cosmetic finishing touches to do such as hiding the pump hose behind the filter outlet, topping up another couple of inches or so, hiding the UV clarifier underneath the filter stand & installing an outside plug socket so we can shut the bedroom window but that should all be done in the next week or so. The pond is 375UK/450US gallons & measures 8 feet x 5.5 feet x 2 feet high & is built from 4x4 fence post timbers 6 layers high. Apart from a few minor details I copied this excellent YouTube video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iS9Km6ihAzk

        John<o)))<

         

         
         

         


         


         

        Group: AquaticLife Message: 57107 From: Larry Blanchard Date: 10/20/2016
        Subject: Re: Patio Pond
        On 10/19/2016 05:13 PM, SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@...
        [AquaticLife] wrote:
        > Over here, we may expect visits by Egrets and Blue Herons, both birds
        > being notorious fish pond raiders. Besides them, we can get Raccoons
        > that love to eat fish if they can catch them. You probably don't have
        > Raccoons there, but you may have other such mammals that raid ponds by
        > you.

        And for an in-ground pond, there's always turtles :-). In my younger
        days in Kentucky, a friend's mother had a pool with about a dozen
        goldfish - till a snapping turtle showed up!

        --
        When fascism comes to America it will come wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross.
        Group: AquaticLife Message: 57108 From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: 10/25/2016
        Subject: AquaticLife Yahoo! Fish Group ~ Founded: Nov 4, 2002, Friday, 04 Nov
        Attachments :
          "AquaticLife Yahoo! Fish Group ~ Founded: Nov 4, 2002" reminder
          When
          Friday, 04 November 2016
          12:00 AM to 12:00 AM
          (GMT) Greenwich Mean Time - Dublin / Edinburgh / Lisbon / London
          Where
          http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/AquaticLife/message/31
          Notes
          Add a Friend @ MySpace.com/AquaticLifeGroup ~ AquaticLife ~ the #1 Yahoo! Fish Group, was Originally Named "FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium" Group Name Officially Changed on: Friday, January 28th, 2005 ~ Moderator Activity 1771-1800 of 21521 Jan 28, 2005 8:36 pm Edit (Changed name: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium -> AquaticLife) by tropicalfishman ~ Message #8138 New Group Name - AquaticLife This message is to Notify all members of the group address change. Previous Group Name: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium New Group Name: AquaticLife New Email Address: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com New Web Address: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AquaticLife Please update any Links and Bookmarks with the new name. Thank You ~ Message #8137 [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium group name change Hello, The moderator of the FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium group has changed the group's name to AquaticLife. This means that both the group's email address and the group home page location have changed. The group email address: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com The group home page location: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AquaticLife If you have links which point to this group or an address book entry for the group, you should update them, as the old addresses will no longer work. Regards, Yahoo! Groups Customer Care ~ Message #8140 Fri Jan 28, 2005 8:36 pm [AquaticLife] FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium group name/addresses have changed Hello, The moderator of the FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium group has changed the group's name. ~ Jan 29, 2005 3:21 am Changed category by tropicalfishman ~ Message #8145 New Group Category: Fish We are now the Largest of all Yahoo! Fish Groups. Old Category - Top > Hobbies & Crafts > Hobbies > Aquariums NEW Category - Top > Science > Biology > Animals > Marine Life > Fish
          From
          AquaticLife   Calendar
          Group: AquaticLife Message: 57109 From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: 11/3/2016
          Subject: AquaticLife Yahoo! Fish Group ~ Founded: Nov 4, 2002, Friday, 04 Nov
          Attachments :
            "AquaticLife Yahoo! Fish Group ~ Founded: Nov 4, 2002" reminder
            When
            Friday, 04 November 2016
            12:00 AM to 12:00 AM
            (GMT) Greenwich Mean Time - Dublin / Edinburgh / Lisbon / London
            Where
            http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/AquaticLife/message/31
            Notes
            Add a Friend @ MySpace.com/AquaticLifeGroup ~ AquaticLife ~ the #1 Yahoo! Fish Group, was Originally Named "FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium" Group Name Officially Changed on: Friday, January 28th, 2005 ~ Moderator Activity 1771-1800 of 21521 Jan 28, 2005 8:36 pm Edit (Changed name: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium -> AquaticLife) by tropicalfishman ~ Message #8138 New Group Name - AquaticLife This message is to Notify all members of the group address change. Previous Group Name: FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium New Group Name: AquaticLife New Email Address: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com New Web Address: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AquaticLife Please update any Links and Bookmarks with the new name. Thank You ~ Message #8137 [FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium] FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium group name change Hello, The moderator of the FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium group has changed the group's name to AquaticLife. This means that both the group's email address and the group home page location have changed. The group email address: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com The group home page location: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AquaticLife If you have links which point to this group or an address book entry for the group, you should update them, as the old addresses will no longer work. Regards, Yahoo! Groups Customer Care ~ Message #8140 Fri Jan 28, 2005 8:36 pm [AquaticLife] FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium group name/addresses have changed Hello, The moderator of the FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium group has changed the group's name. ~ Jan 29, 2005 3:21 am Changed category by tropicalfishman ~ Message #8145 New Group Category: Fish We are now the Largest of all Yahoo! Fish Groups. Old Category - Top > Hobbies & Crafts > Hobbies > Aquariums NEW Category - Top > Science > Biology > Animals > Marine Life > Fish
            From
            AquaticLife   Calendar
            Group: AquaticLife Message: 57110 From: Andy Mills Date: 11/18/2016
            Subject: Has anyone got any experience with blue phantom plecos
            Hello, I saw a really nice looking blue phantom pleco in a shop a couple
            of weeks ago. The only problem was it was very expensive. I've been
            reading up on them and opinions seem to vary. Some sites say they're
            easy to keep but can be difficult to acclimatise. Opinions on
            temperature preferences seem to vary, some say they prefer the mid 70s
            whilst others say high 70s to mid 80s. I can't stop thinking about this
            fish but certainly don't want to pay out all that money to only have it
            a few weeks. I've had lots of different types of plecos over the years,
            some have done very well and lived years whilst others have not. I know
            there's always a bit of a risk when you buy new fish but at the price
            this fish is selling for I'd want it to be an extremely high percentage
            that it would be ok. Has anyone ever kept them and if so what were your
            experiences with them.
            Group: AquaticLife Message: 57111 From: sevenspringss Date: 11/18/2016
            Subject: Re: Has anyone got any experience with blue phantom plecos
            Hi Andy,
             
            Just to acknowledge your post, I wanted to touch base with you on this Pleco.  In general, this group of fish is quite hardy, but when paying these kinds of prices, I'm not about to advise you one way or another on them as I don't consider myself an expert on them.  I would like to point out though, that there is an expert or experts on these fishes, whom my local North Jersey Aquarium Society had as the speaker/lecturer for our October 2016 meeting program,by the name of Reuben Lugo.  He would be the one to contact regarding this Blue Phantom Pleco, as he has bred and raised numerous high end rare Plecos such as this one.  He is known here in the Northeast as the most knowledgeable aquarist to be found, concerning this group of Catfishes.
             
            I'm told that he's a member of the Brooklyn Aquarium Society (in Brooklyn, NY) and that club's website can be reached at < www.basny.org >.  Once you're up there, scroll down to very near the bottom and you'll see several headings, with the one on the left saying "Pages."  below "Pages," you'll see a listing of various pages and the fifth one down is "Contacts."  Open that and request Reuben Lugo's contact info, stating exactly why you want to reach him, just as you're explaining here the kind of info you're seeking -- OR -- just contact one of the club's "Contact Members" who are expected to help and explain all this to them, asking again to be put in touch with Mr. Lugo.  There's also a Hot Line telephone number if you want to try phoning, and that's; 718-837-4455.  If you can reach him, if he can't give you the information you need, nobody can, as he would be the one to know.
             
            Ray
             
             
            In a message dated 11/18/2016 1:26:26 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
             

            Hello, I saw a really nice looking blue phantom pleco in a shop a couple
            of weeks ago. The only problem was it was very expensive. I've been
            reading up on them and opinions seem to vary. Some sites say they're
            easy to keep but can be difficult to acclimatise. Opinions on
            temperature preferences seem to vary, some say they prefer the mid 70s
            whilst others say high 70s to mid 80s. I can't stop thinking about this
            fish but certainly don't want to pay out all that money to only have it
            a few weeks. I've had lots of different types of plecos over the years,
            some have done very well and lived years whilst others have not. I know
            there's always a bit of a risk when you buy new fish but at the price
            this fish is selling for I'd want it to be an extremely high percentage
            that it would be ok. Has anyone ever kept them and if so what were your
            experiences with them.

             
            Group: AquaticLife Message: 57112 From: Harry Perry Date: 11/18/2016
            Subject: Blue Phantom Pleco
            I'm seeing a lot of uploads on Google but I suspect you have already tried that.

            L128 Blue Phantom Pleco Profile....

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIW788XmKII

            Harry
            --------------------------------------------
            On Fri, 11/18/16, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

            Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Has anyone got any experience with blue phantom plecos
            To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Friday, November 18, 2016, 5:36 PM


             



               


                 
                   
                   
                   



            Hi Andy,
             
            Just to acknowledge your post, I wanted
            to touch base with you
            on this Pleco.  In general, this group of fish is quite
            hardy, but when
            paying these kinds of prices, I'm not about to advise
            you one way or another on
            them as I don't consider myself an expert on them.  I
            would like to point
            out though, that there is an expert or experts on these
            fishes, whom
            my local North Jersey Aquarium Society had as the
            speaker/lecturer for our
            October 2016 meeting program,by the name of Reuben Lugo. 
            He would be
            the one to contact regarding this Blue Phantom Pleco, as he
            has bred and
            raised numerous high end rare Plecos such as this one.  He
            is known here in
            the Northeast as the most knowledgeable aquarist to be
            found, concerning this
            group of Catfishes.
             
            I'm told that he's a member of
            the Brooklyn Aquarium Society
            (in Brooklyn, NY) and that club's website can be reached
            at < www.basny.org >.  Once
            you're up there,
            scroll down to very near the bottom and you'll see
            several headings, with the
            one on the left saying "Pages."  below
            "Pages," you'll see a
            listing of various pages and the fifth one
            down is "Contacts."  Open that and request
            Reuben Lugo's contact info, stating exactly why you
            want to reach him, just
            as you're explaining here the kind of info you're
            seeking -- OR -- just contact
            one of the club's "Contact Members" who are
            expected to help and explain all
            this to them, asking again to be put in touch with Mr.
            Lugo.  There's also
            a Hot Line telephone number if you want to try phoning, and
            that's;
            718-837-4455.  If you can reach him, if he can't give
            you the information
            you need, nobody can, as he would be the one to
            know.
             
            Ray
             
             
            In a message dated 11/18/2016 1:26:26 P.M. Eastern
            Standard Time,
            AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
             
               
               Hello, I saw a really nice looking blue phantom pleco
            in a shop a couple
               
            of weeks ago. The only problem was it was
            very expensive. I've been
               
            reading up on them and opinions seem to
            vary. Some sites say they're
               
            easy to keep but can be difficult to
            acclimatise. Opinions on
               
            temperature preferences seem to vary,
            some say they prefer the mid 70s
               
            whilst others say high 70s to mid 80s. I
            can't stop thinking about this
               
            fish but certainly don't want to pay
            out all that money to only have it
               
            a few weeks. I've had lots of
            different types of plecos over the years,
               
            some have done very well and lived years
            whilst others have not. I know
               
            there's always a bit of a risk when
            you buy new fish but at the price
               
            this fish is selling for I'd want it
            to be an extremely high percentage
               
            that it would be ok. Has anyone ever kept
            them and if so what were your
               
            experiences with them.

               

             

                 
                 

                 
                
            Group: AquaticLife Message: 57113 From: Harry Perry Date: 11/18/2016
            Subject: again.....Re: [AquaticLife] Blue Phantom Pleco
            What I have experienced over the years is....the quality of the fish food does make a difference.

            Fish food should contain mostly fish by products not. grains etc.
            New Life Spectrum, Omega One and Hikari all smell fishy.

            The cheap flake food you buy at Walmart is just that, cheaply made. Read the labels and research everything.

            If you do a Google search just type in best fish food and stand by. More information than you ever wanted to know.

            I've noticed a big difference in longevity just by switching from cheap flakes to Omega one.

            The ideal situation is a variety of quality food mixed with live food whenever possible.
            Frozen and freeze dried is an option. Some common sense here.......my Bettas seem to be prone to bloating. So, I pre- soak any freeze dried food. You don't want that food expanding in a tiny stomach.

            I've also noticed folks feed their fish way too much and too often.A Bettas stomach is about as big as it's eye. Think about that the next time you feed. Healthy fish are always hungry. Your not being cruel by restricting food to a small degree. I feed once a day or every other day unless there are fry in the tank.

            A fish's system will work much better if it's not bloated.

            More ideas go here....

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shrprjYIkRQ

            Harry
            --------------------------------------------
            On Fri, 11/18/16, Harry Perry harryfisherman@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

            Subject: [AquaticLife] Blue Phantom Pleco
            To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Friday, November 18, 2016, 7:22 PM


             



               


                 
                   
                   
                   I'm seeing a lot of uploads on Google but I
            suspect you have already tried that.



            L128 Blue Phantom Pleco Profile....



            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIW788XmKII



            Harry

            --------------------------------------------
            Group: AquaticLife Message: 57114 From: Andy Mills Date: 11/20/2016
            Subject: Re: Blue Phantom Pleco
            Thanks for the info, enjoyed that video. There has been a development.
            I managed to find a smaller fish at a cheaper price, still quite
            expensive but not as scary as the price for the other one. Not as
            impressive as the bigger one I saw a couple of weeks ago but hopefully
            it'll grow and eventually will look just like that one did, just looks
            like a much smaller version of it at the moment.




            On 19/11/2016 00:22, Harry Perry harryfisherman@... [AquaticLife]
            wrote:
            > I'm seeing a lot of uploads on Google but I suspect you have already tried that.
            >
            > L128 Blue Phantom Pleco Profile....
            >
            > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIW788XmKII
            >
            > Harry
            > --------------------------------------------
            > On Fri, 11/18/16, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
            >
            > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Has anyone got any experience with blue phantom plecos
            > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
            > Date: Friday, November 18, 2016, 5:36 PM
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Hi Andy,
            >
            > Just to acknowledge your post, I wanted
            > to touch base with you
            > on this Pleco. In general, this group of fish is quite
            > hardy, but when
            > paying these kinds of prices, I'm not about to advise
            > you one way or another on
            > them as I don't consider myself an expert on them. I
            > would like to point
            > out though, that there is an expert or experts on these
            > fishes, whom
            > my local North Jersey Aquarium Society had as the
            > speaker/lecturer for our
            > October 2016 meeting program,by the name of Reuben Lugo.
            > He would be
            > the one to contact regarding this Blue Phantom Pleco, as he
            > has bred and
            > raised numerous high end rare Plecos such as this one. He
            > is known here in
            > the Northeast as the most knowledgeable aquarist to be
            > found, concerning this
            > group of Catfishes.
            >
            > I'm told that he's a member of
            > the Brooklyn Aquarium Society
            > (in Brooklyn, NY) and that club's website can be reached
            > at < www.basny.org >. Once
            > you're up there,
            > scroll down to very near the bottom and you'll see
            > several headings, with the
            > one on the left saying "Pages." below
            > "Pages," you'll see a
            > listing of various pages and the fifth one
            > down is "Contacts." Open that and request
            > Reuben Lugo's contact info, stating exactly why you
            > want to reach him, just
            > as you're explaining here the kind of info you're
            > seeking -- OR -- just contact
            > one of the club's "Contact Members" who are
            > expected to help and explain all
            > this to them, asking again to be put in touch with Mr.
            > Lugo. There's also
            > a Hot Line telephone number if you want to try phoning, and
            > that's;
            > 718-837-4455. If you can reach him, if he can't give
            > you the information
            > you need, nobody can, as he would be the one to
            > know.
            >
            > Ray
            >
            >
            > In a message dated 11/18/2016 1:26:26 P.M. Eastern
            > Standard Time,
            > AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
            >
            >
            > Hello, I saw a really nice looking blue phantom pleco
            > in a shop a couple
            >
            > of weeks ago. The only problem was it was
            > very expensive. I've been
            >
            > reading up on them and opinions seem to
            > vary. Some sites say they're
            >
            > easy to keep but can be difficult to
            > acclimatise. Opinions on
            >
            > temperature preferences seem to vary,
            > some say they prefer the mid 70s
            >
            > whilst others say high 70s to mid 80s. I
            > can't stop thinking about this
            >
            > fish but certainly don't want to pay
            > out all that money to only have it
            >
            > a few weeks. I've had lots of
            > different types of plecos over the years,
            >
            > some have done very well and lived years
            > whilst others have not. I know
            >
            > there's always a bit of a risk when
            > you buy new fish but at the price
            >
            > this fish is selling for I'd want it
            > to be an extremely high percentage
            >
            > that it would be ok. Has anyone ever kept
            > them and if so what were your
            >
            > experiences with them.
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            > Posted by: Harry Perry <harryfisherman@...>
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > AquaticLife � A great way to share experience & ask ?s
            >
            > Join us on our Facebook page...https://www.facebook.com/AquaticLifeGroup
            >
            > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You.
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            >
            Group: AquaticLife Message: 57115 From: Harry Perry Date: 11/20/2016
            Subject: Andy.....Re: [AquaticLife] Blue Phantom Pleco
            You'll get to enjoy it longer if it's smaller also save some money.

            I posted what I've experienced about feeding tropical fish in general in another post to the group.

            I've seen them for $70.00 on-line,but when you add Fed Ex next day to that your over $100.00

            Gives a new meaning to the word "floater".

            They are a stunning fish, large or small.

            Harry
            --------------------------------------------
            On Sun, 11/20/16, Andy Mills andy.mills@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

            Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Blue Phantom Pleco
            To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Sunday, November 20, 2016, 12:00 PM


             









            Thanks for the info, enjoyed that video. There has
            been a development.

            I managed to find a smaller fish at a cheaper price, still
            quite

            expensive but not as scary as the price for the other one.
            Not as

            impressive as the bigger one I saw a couple of weeks ago but
            hopefully

            it'll grow and eventually will look just like that one
            did, just looks

            like a much smaller version of it at the moment.



            On 19/11/2016 00:22, Harry Perry harryfisherman@...
            [AquaticLife]

            wrote:

            > I'm seeing a lot of uploads on Google but I suspect
            you have already tried that.

            >

            > L128 Blue Phantom Pleco Profile....

            >

            > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIW788XmKII

            >

            > Harry

            > --------------------------------------------

            > On Fri, 11/18/16, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]
            <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

            >

            > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Has anyone got any
            experience with blue phantom plecos
            Group: AquaticLife Message: 57116 From: Angela Cancilla Herschel Date: 11/27/2016
            Subject: Clear-water Barley Straw Bales ?
            Anyone ever use clear-water Barley Straw Bales  ..ever used by anyone or recommended for my daughters outside concrete fountain ( BIG water area 12x5!) in Malibu,  for her goldfish?
             I saw it on amazon;
            Summit 130 Clear-water Barley Straw Bales, 2-Pack
            by Summit Chemical Co.

            [https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0002568YK?ref%5F=pe%5F385040%5F215884960%5Fpd%5Fte%5Fs%5Fbx%5Fti&redirect=true&pldnSite=1]



            Ciao, Angela Cancilla Herschel,   CPBC ,
            Member : IAATE  -  IAABC - WPT
            Southern California
             

            Being Kind is more important ...than being important. ~
            California Wildlife Center, volunteer  ~

            www.cawildlife.org

            Group: AquaticLife Message: 57117 From: sevenspringss Date: 11/27/2016
            Subject: Re: Clear-water Barley Straw Bales ?
            Hello Angela,
             
            I'm not quite sure what you mean when stating the area is 12 x 5 and at the same time saying it's a fountain -- with goldfish in it.  Sounds more like a pond, with a fountain feature as part of it instead of a waterfall feature, which some water gardeners prefer.  I'm assuming that this fountain is centered in this concrete container of sorts.  This area given, of 60 sq ft is not really big as goldfish containers go, whether a pond or a "fountain."  May I assume that you're attempting the keep the water clear of suspended algae, as it would appear?  As a retired manager of one of the country's leading water garden supply houses, I used to sell a fair amount of Barley Straw to keep patrons' ponds clear with decent results. 
             
            It does take some time though, before it starts to work, as the process entails allowing the barley to start decaying where after it creates hydrogen peroxide, which effectively kills off any suspended algae in time.  Best results are had when placed in the current at the side of a waterfall, although if there's enough water movement generated by the fountain, either at its source near where the spray emanates from the fountain head or near the water's reentry back into the pond (or fountain), the barley straw could be placed there.  To just put the barley straw at any other location in this fountain that lacks a strong water turbulence past it isn't going to do very much.
             
            I do need to tell you though, although many customers have had good results with it, a matter of "balance" becomes important as too much barley straw may deplete the water's oxygen content below that which the goldfish need for proper respiration.  While, as you can see by the preference for water flowing past the barley straw, this is not an anaerobic process in which this straw putrefies, but still this rotting of the organic matter does use up oxygen just as any "burning" (oxidation) of matter would.    My personal recommendation for the easiest method in controlling suspended algae is to use an in-line Ultra Violet "clarifier"/"filter", if your water pump is connected to your fountain head via some type of tubing/hosing.  Here, the tubing is split (and valved) before the UV Unit as these gadgets require a slower flow than the remaining water flow, to enable the UV rays a bit of time to dispatch the algae.  If it were a pond, it becomes
            easier, just by ensuring that approximately 2/3 of the water surface is covered with some type of aquatic plant(s) -- either water lilies. water hyacinth, water lettuce or and of the small plants such as Azolla, Duck Weed or Salvinia or the like.  But, water lilies in particular don't like very much water turbulence and especially not splashing of water onto their leaves. 
             
            Ray
             
             
            In a message dated 11/27/2016 5:59:51 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
             

            Anyone ever use clear-water Barley Straw Bales  ..ever used by anyone or recommended for my daughters outside concrete fountain ( BIG water area 12x5!) in Malibu,  for her goldfish?
             I saw it on amazon;
            Summit 130 Clear-water Barley Straw Bales, 2-Pack
            by Summit Chemical Co.

            [https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0002568YK?ref%5F=pe%5F385040%5F215884960%5Fpd%5Fte%5Fs%5Fbx%5Fti&redirect=true&pldnSite=1]



            Ciao, Angela Cancilla Herschel,   CPBC ,
            Member : IAATE  -  IAABC - WPT
            Southern California

             

            Being Kind is more important ...than being important. ~
            California Wildlife Center, volunteer  ~

            www.cawildlife.org

             
            Group: AquaticLife Message: 57118 From: Angela Cancilla Herschel Date: 11/29/2016
            Subject: Re: Clear-water Barley Straw Bales ?
            Hi Ray,
            Thank you .
            It is actually probably much larger than the measurements I gave ( deeper too) ..the fountain does not work and my daughter empties the water about once a month.  The goldfish actually have so much room and are doing so well they had babies.
            The problem is it becomes unclear within one week that is how fast the alrgeh grows . 
            I have tried telling her to get plants ... water lilies. water hyacinth, water lettuce or and of the small plants such as Azolla, Duck Weed or
            Salvinia. I think the water lilies may actually do best here in Malibu California.

            ​>​
            Hello Angela,

            I'm not quite sure what you mean when stating the area is 12 x 5 and at the
            same time saying it's a fountain -- with goldfish in it. Sounds more like
            a pond, with a fountain feature as part of it instead of a waterfall
            feature, which some water gardeners prefer. I'm assuming that this fountain is
            centered in this concrete container of sorts. This area given, of 60 sq ft
            is not really big as goldfish containers go, whether a pond or a
            "fountain." May I assume that you're attempting the keep the water clear of
            suspended algae, as it would appear? As a retired manager of one of the
            country's leading water garden supply houses, I used to sell a fair amount of
            Barley Straw to keep patrons' ponds clear with decent results.

            It does take some time though, before it starts to work, as the process
            entails allowing the barley to start decaying where after it creates hydrogen
            peroxide, which effectively kills off any suspended algae in time. Best
            results are had when placed in the current at the side of a waterfall,
            although if there's enough water movement generated by the fountain, either at
            its source near where the spray emanates from the fountain head or near the
            water's reentry back into the pond (or fountain), the barley straw could be
            placed there. To just put the barley straw at any other location in this
            fountain that lacks a strong water turbulence past it isn't going to do very
            much.

            I do need to tell you though, although many customers have had good results
            with it, a matter of "balance" becomes important as too much barley straw
            may deplete the water's oxygen content below that which the goldfish need
            for proper respiration. While, as you can see by the preference for water
            flowing past the barley straw, this is not an anaerobic process in which
            this straw putrefies, but still this rotting of the organic matter does use up
            oxygen just as any "burning" (oxidation) of matter would. My personal
            recommendation for the easiest method in controlling suspended algae is to
            use an in-line Ultra Violet "clarifier"/"filter", if your water pump is
            connected to your fountain head via some type of tubing/hosing. Here, the
            tubing is split (and valved) before the UV Unit as these gadgets require a
            slower flow than the remaining water flow, to enable the UV rays a bit of time
            to dispatch the algae. If it were a pond, it becomes
            easier, just by ensuring that approximately 2/3 of the water surface is
            covered with some type of aquatic plant(s) -- either water lilies. water
            hyacinth, water lettuce or and of the small plants such as Azolla, Duck Weed or
            Salvinia or the like. But, water lilies in particular don't like very much
            water turbulence and especially not splashing of water onto their leaves.

            Ray


            In a message dated 11/27/2016 5:59:51 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
            AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

            Anyone ever use clear-water Barley Straw Bales ..ever used by anyone or
            recommended for my daughters outside concrete fountain ( BIG water area
            12x5!) in Malibu, for her goldfish?
            I saw it on amazon;
            Summit 130 Clear-water Barley Straw Bales, 2-Pack
            by Summit Chemical Co.

            [_https://www.amazon.com/gp/ product/B0002568YK?ref%5F=pe% 5F385040%5F21588496
            0%5Fpd%5Fte%5Fs%5Fbx%5Fti& redirect=true&pldnSite=1_
            (https://www.amazon.com/gp/ product/B0002568YK?ref_=pe_ 385040_215884960_pd_te_s_bx_ ti&redirect=true&p
            ldnSite=1) ]




            Ciao, Angela Cancilla Herschel
            ,   CPBC ,
            Member : IAATE  -  IAABC - WPT
            Southern California
             

            Being Kind is more important ...than being important. ~
            California Wildlife Center, volunteer  ~

            www.cawildlife.org

            Group: AquaticLife Message: 57119 From: sevenspringss Date: 11/29/2016
            Subject: Re: Clear-water Barley Straw Bales ?
            Hi Angela,
             
            A fountain does imply a shallower depth, but even though you gave no measurement in this direction, I had assumed it was deeper than only a fountain would need -- or at least several feet.  I have a 9 x 12 pond, of which about 1/4 of this is 2 feet deep, 5/8 of it is 5 feet deep and the remaining 1/8 of it is 6 feet deep (to facilitate pumping the small remaining quantity of water out that gathers at this lowest level, when I do a thorough cleaning/draining.  The 2 foot depth is used by the fish for spawning and I find that the 5 foot depth is plenty adequate as a safe haven for any predators which may try to nab a fish if they cane reach them. 
             
            Normally, if the pond isn't stocked to capacity, only about two partial water changes are all that's need during the season (from April though October).  That your daughter is not only making water changes every month, and is emptying it at these times -- apparently doing a complete water change, as I understand this -- I also have to assume (perhaps erroneously) that she has no filter system on this fish enclosure -- for lack of a better word, since I don't know if I should call it a "fountain" or a "pond."  If there is a filter system, and the emptying and refilling the enclosure is needed to eliminate the suspended algae, a UV clarifier in concert with the pumping system, again, would be the simplest (and surest) way to keep the algae at a minimum.     
             
            Enough surface cover in the form of aquatic plants though, can be just as sure in keeping the algae at bay.  I note you have much milder weather for this time of year than much of the rest of this country, with highs last week in the high 60's and low 70's.  I note too, that just a few weeks ago the temps were in the high 80's to low 90's, even though it's been in the low 60's lately.  Still, while warmer weather always stimulates algae growth, it really thrives on sunlight, and this is probably where this fish container is at a disadvantage, quite possibly receiving as much as some 8 hours of full sun, since it's been such a problem.
             
            If for any reason, an Ultra-Violet unit is not convenient, getting right back to the aquatic plants is the way to go.  Especially if this container receives a lot of sun, or even if it gets some 6 hours worth, it should have enough water lilies to provide adequate shade cover to a large area of water surface -- for starters.  Just as we've both said, small surface plants are just about a must if prime conditions for algal growth are to be kept as minimal.  Still, algae also thrives on dissolved nutrients.  As such, while water lilies are most beneficial at cutting down sunlight in the water column, they're not going to consume much of the dissolved nutrients at all, as they draw them directly from the potting medium they're roots are planted in.  One of the absolute best "nutrient-sponge-plants" that can be used is Hornwort, which floats freely in the water column without putting much of a root system in the substrate.  Anacharis (Elodea) is second-best and extremely useful in pulling excess nutrients out of the water.  Hornwort, however, does best in harder more alkaline water and while Anacharis prefers alkaline water, it will still do fine in moderately acid water.  I'm not sure how low your temperature drops through the Winter, but plants like Java Moss and Najas ("Guppy Grass") are also very good at eating excess nutrients in the water column, effectively starving out the algae.   BTW, often, just doing a major partial water change will be to add more nutrients for the algae to feed on. 
             
            There are many other useful and quite decorative surface plants that can be used to help shade the water column, some potted and some free-floating.  Parrot's Feather (Myriophyllum aquaticum) is but one of them,and then there's Water Clover, Floating Heart, Mosaic Plant, Water Poppy, the various "Snowflakes," Bogbean and such, not to mention the Azolla, Salvinia and such which we've already discussed..
             
            Ray        
             
               
             
            In a message dated 11/29/2016 3:31:56 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
             

            Hi Ray,
            Thank you .
            It is actually probably much larger than the measurements I gave ( deeper too) ..the fountain does not work and my daughter empties the water about once a month.  The goldfish actually have so much room and are doing so well they had babies.
            The problem is it becomes unclear within one week that is how fast the alrgeh grows . 
            I have tried telling her to get plants ... water lilies. water hyacinth, water lettuce or and of the small plants such as Azolla, Duck Weed or
            Salvinia. I think the water lilies may actually do best here in Malibu California.

            ​>​
            Hello Angela,

            I'm not quite sure what you mean when stating the area is 12 x 5 and at the
            same time saying it's a fountain -- with goldfish in it. Sounds more like
            a pond, with a fountain feature as part of it instead of a waterfall
            feature, which some water gardeners prefer. I'm assuming that this fountain is
            centered in this concrete container of sorts. This area given, of 60 sq ft
            is not really big as goldfish containers go, whether a pond or a
            "fountain." May I assume that you're attempting the keep the water clear of
            suspended algae, as it would appear? As a retired manager of one of the
            country's leading water garden supply houses, I used to sell a fair amount of
            Barley Straw to keep patrons' ponds clear with decent results.

            It does take some time though, before it starts to work, as the process
            entails allowing the barley to start decaying where after it creates hydrogen
            peroxide, which effectively kills off any suspended algae in time. Best
            results are had when placed in the current at the side of a waterfall,
            although if there's enough water movement generated by the fountain, either at
            its source near where the spray emanates from the fountain head or near the
            water's reentry back into the pond (or fountain), the barley straw could be
            placed there. To just put the barley straw at any other location in this
            fountain that lacks a strong water turbulence past it isn't going to do very
            much.

            I do need to tell you though, although many customers have had good results
            with it, a matter of "balance" becomes important as too much barley straw
            may deplete the water's oxygen content below that which the goldfish need
            for proper respiration. While, as you can see by the preference for water
            flowing past the barley straw, this is not an anaerobic process in which
            this straw putrefies, but still this rotting of the organic matter does use up
            oxygen just as any "burning" (oxidation) of matter would. My personal
            recommendation for the easiest method in controlling suspended algae is to
            use an in-line Ultra Violet "clarifier"/"filter", if your water pump is
            connected to your fountain head via some type of tubing/hosing. Here, the
            tubing is split (and valved) before the UV Unit as these gadgets require a
            slower flow than the remaining water flow, to enable the UV rays a bit of time
            to dispatch the algae. If it were a pond, it becomes
            easier, just by ensuring that approximately 2/3 of the water surface is
            covered with some type of aquatic plant(s) -- either water lilies. water
            hyacinth, water lettuce or and of the small plants such as Azolla, Duck Weed or
            Salvinia or the like. But, water lilies in particular don't like very much
            water turbulence and especially not splashing of water onto their leaves.

            Ray


            In a message dated 11/27/2016 5:59:51 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
            AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

            Anyone ever use clear-water Barley Straw Bales ..ever used by anyone or
            recommended for my daughters outside concrete fountain ( BIG water area
            12x5!) in Malibu, for her goldfish?
            I saw it on amazon;
            Summit 130 Clear-water Barley Straw Bales, 2-Pack
            by Summit Chemical Co.

            [_https://www.amazon.com/gp/ product/B0002568YK?ref%5F=pe% 5F385040%5F21588496
            0%5Fpd%5Fte%5Fs%5Fbx%5Fti& redirect=true&pldnSite=1_
            (https://www.amazon.com/gp/ product/B0002568YK?ref_=pe_ 385040_215884960_pd_te_s_bx_ ti&redirect=true&p
            ldnSite=1) ]




            Ciao, Angela Cancilla Herschel
            ,   CPBC ,
            Member : IAATE  -  IAABC - WPT
            Southern California

             

            Being Kind is more important ...than being important. ~
            California Wildlife Center, volunteer  ~

            www.cawildlife.org

             
            Group: AquaticLife Message: 57120 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 12/7/2016
            Subject: Re: Clear-water Barley Straw Bales ?

            Hi Angela & Ray,

             Apologies for jumping in so long after the thread started. Just to say I agree with Ray in regard to using a UV clarifier unit if possible-TMC is a good make & used on several of the ponds I look after. As a matter of interest I've personally only seen one instance of Barley Sraw used on a system & that was on what I can only describe as a lake in the grounds of a stately home in Nottinghamshire where we moved some Koi to. The system was so big they had to get planning permission from the local water company & it used 10 x Oase Biotech 30s connected in series. The feed into the pond was a fast flowing concrete gulley approx 2 feet wide x 1 foot deep. At the point just before the water from the filter complex entered the pond there was a wider section of the gulley almost exactly the size of a standard UK straw bale & that is exactly what went in there! It was very impressive system with around 500 Koi & a reed bed filter at the opposite end to the inlet which itself was half the size of a football pitch. I have seen barley straw bales used to purify water in one other instance but not fish related & that was in the drainage system of a closed railway tunnel in the Pennines that was having some serious engineering work done inside which was polluting the drainage system with old soot. The straw bales will have purified the water before it exited the tunnel & flowed into a local river.

             John<o)))<

             

            On 30 November 2016 at 03:04 "sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

             

             

            Hi Angela,
             
            A fountain does imply a shallower depth, but even though you gave no measurement in this direction, I had assumed it was deeper than only a fountain would need -- or at least several feet.  I have a 9 x 12 pond, of which about 1/4 of this is 2 feet deep, 5/8 of it is 5 feet deep and the remaining 1/8 of it is 6 feet deep (to facilitate pumping the small remaining quantity of water out that gathers at this lowest level, when I do a thorough cleaning/draining.  The 2 foot depth is used by the fish for spawning and I find that the 5 foot depth is plenty adequate as a safe haven for any predators which may try to nab a fish if they cane reach them. 
             
            Normally, if the pond isn't stocked to capacity, only about two partial water changes are all that's need during the season (from April though October).  That your daughter is not only making water changes every month, and is emptying it at these times -- apparently doing a complete water change, as I understand this -- I also have to assume (perhaps erroneously) that she has no filter system on this fish enclosure -- for lack of a better word, since I don't know if I should call it a "fountain" or a "pond."  If there is a filter system, and the emptying and refilling the enclosure is needed to eliminate the suspended algae, a UV clarifier in concert with the pumping system, again, would be the simplest (and surest) way to keep the algae at a minimum.     
             
            Enough surface cover in the form of aquatic plants though, can be just as sure in keeping the algae at bay.  I note you have much milder weather for this time of year than much of the rest of this country, with highs last week in the high 60's and low 70's.  I note too, that just a few weeks ago the temps were in the high 80's to low 90's, even though it's been in the low 60's lately.  Still, while warmer weather always stimulates algae growth, it really thrives on sunlight, and this is probably where this fish container is at a disadvantage, quite possibly receiving as much as some 8 hours of full sun, since it's been such a problem.
             
            If for any reason, an Ultra-Violet unit is not convenient, getting right back to the aquatic plants is the way to go.  Especially if this container receives a lot of sun, or even if it gets some 6 hours worth, it should have enough water lilies to provide adequate shade cover to a large area of water surface -- for starters.  Just as we've both said, small surface plants are just about a must if prime conditions for algal growth are to be kept as minimal.  Still, algae also thrives on dissolved nutrients.  As such, while water lilies are most beneficial at cutting down sunlight in the water column, they're not going to consume much of the dissolved nutrients at all, as they draw them directly from the potting medium they're roots are planted in.  One of the absolute best "nutrient-sponge-plants" that can be used is Hornwort, which floats freely in the water column without putting much of a root system in the substrate.  Anacharis (Elodea) is second-best and extremely useful in pulling excess nutrients out of the water.  Hornwort, however, does best in harder more alkaline water and while Anacharis prefers alkaline water, it will still do fine in moderately acid water.  I'm not sure how low your temperature drops through the Winter, but plants like Java Moss and Najas ("Guppy Grass") are also very good at eating excess nutrients in the water column, effectively starving out the algae.   BTW, often, just doing a major partial water change will be to add more nutrients for the algae to feed on. 
             
            There are many other useful and quite decorative surface plants that can be used to help shade the water column, some potted and some free-floating.  Parrot's Feather (Myriophyllum aquaticum) is but one of them,and then there's Water Clover, Floating Heart, Mosaic Plant, Water Poppy, the various "Snowflakes," Bogbean and such, not to mention the Azolla, Salvinia and such which we've already discussed..
             
            Ray        
             
               
             
            In a message dated 11/29/2016 3:31:56 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
             

             

            Hi Ray,
            Thank you .
            It is actually probably much larger than the measurements I gave ( deeper too) ..the fountain does not work and my daughter empties the water about once a month.  The goldfish actually have so much room and are doing so well they had babies.
            The problem is it becomes unclear within one week that is how fast the alrgeh grows . 
            I have tried telling her to get plants ... water lilies. water hyacinth, water lettuce or and of the small plants such as Azolla, Duck Weed or
            Salvinia. I think the water lilies may actually do best here in Malibu California.

            ​>​
            Hello Angela,

            I'm not quite sure what you mean when stating the area is 12 x 5 and at the
            same time saying it's a fountain -- with goldfish in it. Sounds more like
            a pond, with a fountain feature as part of it instead of a waterfall
            feature, which some water gardeners prefer. I'm assuming that this fountain is
            centered in this concrete container of sorts. This area given, of 60 sq ft
            is not really big as goldfish containers go, whether a pond or a
            "fountain." May I assume that you're attempting the keep the water clear of
            suspended algae, as it would appear? As a retired manager of one of the
            country's leading water garden supply houses, I used to sell a fair amount of
            Barley Straw to keep patrons' ponds clear with decent results.

            It does take some time though, before it starts to work, as the process
            entails allowing the barley to start decaying where after it creates hydrogen
            peroxide, which effectively kills off any suspended algae in time. Best
            results are had when placed in the current at the side of a waterfall,
            although if there's enough water movement generated by the fountain, either at
            its source near where the spray emanates from the fountain head or near the
            water's reentry back into the pond (or fountain), the barley straw could be
            placed there. To just put the barley straw at any other location in this
            fountain that lacks a strong water turbulence past it isn't going to do very
            much.

            I do need to tell you though, although many customers have had good results
            with it, a matter of "balance" becomes important as too much barley straw
            may deplete the water's oxygen content below that which the goldfish need
            for proper respiration. While, as you can see by the preference for water
            flowing past the barley straw, this is not an anaerobic process in which
            this straw putrefies, but still this rotting of the organic matter does use up
            oxygen just as any "burning" (oxidation) of matter would. My personal
            recommendation for the easiest method in controlling suspended algae is to
            use an in-line Ultra Violet "clarifier"/"filter", if your water pump is
            connected to your fountain head via some type of tubing/hosing. Here, the
            tubing is split (and valved) before the UV Unit as these gadgets require a
            slower flow than the remaining water flow, to enable the UV rays a bit of time
            to dispatch the algae. If it were a pond, it becomes
            easier, just by ensuring that approximately 2/3 of the water surface is
            covered with some type of aquatic plant(s) -- either water lilies. water
            hyacinth, water lettuce or and of the small plants such as Azolla, Duck Weed or
            Salvinia or the like. But, water lilies in particular don't like very much
            water turbulence and especially not splashing of water onto their leaves.

            Ray


            In a message dated 11/27/2016 5:59:51 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
            AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

            Anyone ever use clear-water Barley Straw Bales ..ever used by anyone or
            recommended for my daughters outside concrete fountain ( BIG water area
            12x5!) in Malibu, for her goldfish?
            I saw it on amazon;
            Summit 130 Clear-water Barley Straw Bales, 2-Pack
            by Summit Chemical Co.

            [_https://www.amazon.com/gp/ product/B0002568YK?ref%5F=pe% 5F385040%5F21588496
            0%5Fpd%5Fte%5Fs%5Fbx%5Fti& redirect=true&pldnSite=1_
            (https://www.amazon.com/gp/ product/B0002568YK?ref_=pe_ 385040_215884960_pd_te_s_bx_ ti&redirect=true&p
            ldnSite=1) ]




            Ciao, Angela Cancilla Herschel
            ,   CPBC ,
            Member : IAATE  -  IAABC - WPT
            Southern California

             

            Being Kind is more important ...than being important. ~
            California Wildlife Center, volunteer  ~

            www.cawildlife.org

             

             
             

             


             


             

            Group: AquaticLife Message: 57121 From: sevenspringss Date: 12/8/2016
            Subject: Re: Clear-water Barley Straw Bales ?
            John,
             
            The magnitude of this use of Barley Straw as a clarifier and algae control applied to this lake holding 500 Koi is impressive.  Yes, indeed this material works in keeping pond (and lake) water free of algae as your posts states.  Too, with this report, it's quite clear that the Barley Straw bales were used in conjunction with a number of 10 large Oase Biotech 30 filter boxes as the medium used in these filters -- I'm presuming being run in parallel (as separate units) rather than in an in-line series to get the greatest effect and largest possible flow of water in any given period of time.  This does directly demonstrate that the best results -- by far- are derived from Barley Straw's benefits in this application primarily as combined with a constant water flow through it.  I would go so far to say, that for Barley Straw's action in promoting algae-free water to be conclusive, that it's imperative that it be exposed to a water flow rather than merely being placed in standing water, and I thank you John, for illustrating this.  While I'm not familiar with the size of one of these Oase filter boxes, one of the most popular filters in demand when I was managing the watergarden supply firm I previously mentioned was the Oase Bio Clear - Model 10, which has a flow rate capacity of 2600 (U.S.) gallons per hour.  It might appear that one Biotech 30 may have a flow rate of 3 X this capacity.
                
            Getting back to the preference of the Barley Straw being exposed to moving water, with this is having been found to be the widely accepted method of using it -- especially in the form of bales --  I have read reports however, of parties using Barley Straw in this following manner, by just sinking it in standing water in large natural ponds, but here it was not used in bales, but loose as contained in a net-like onion bag, weighted to have it sink to the bottom.  In this way, water is allowed to freely permeate through it without it putrefying, albeit with no especial waterflow passing through it.  Additionally, I've read reports suggesting that while these loose bags of Barley Straw should best be weighted to keep them in the area that they were placed at, they should be tied to a line and have a a floating object tied to them so they may be suspended nearer the surface.  While it will still do the job it was meant to do when used in this fashion, it would take exponentially longer to realize the accomplishment of algae growth inhibition than seen as used in bales.  The normal form of Barley Straw for the use of algae control in fish ponds is as bales, just as the question here was originally posed.  Not that a bale can't be pulled apart into a much looser consistency, to be used as I just indicated, but even as used as bales within a water flow where it's action is much faster, it will still take at least one to TWO weeks to start working ABOVE 70 o F -- and up to six to eight weeks at 50 o F; these amounts of time, in the best of conditions (with a water flow).  I would have to guess that at this time of year, that even in Malibu, pond water can't be near 70 o F, when the current weather in the area presently is low 60's (F) during the day and high 40's to low 50's (F) at night.
             
            If it seems dubious that it should require a water flow to work best, for starters, as we all know organic matter of any kind with decompose when submersed in water.  Not only does a flow of water past this material best promote it's process of algae growth inhibition, but the oxygen-rich water flowing through it ensures that only aerobic Nitrobacter and Nitrosomonas populate it in breaking it down.  Just sinking Barley Straw bales to the bottom of a pond, either contained in a porous bag or netting, or by itself in the form of a bale within which little oxygen is present, will also promote its decay but as putrefaction by the action of anaerobic bacteria (Aeromonas, Pseudomonas and other similar microorganisms) which create noxious gases toxic to fish.
             
            As for the amount of Barley Straw to be used in the flowing water, other reports I've seen state using 1 pound per 2000 gallons, although we (the water garden outlet firm) recommend using it at a rate of 1 "pad" (7" x 7") per 700 gallons; we sell it in the box of 3 such 7" x 7" pads or in the 7" wide X 33' long roll of 56 such 7" x 7" pads which will treat a 13,000 (U.S.) gallon pond.  We also recommend in our catalog to' "Place the barley pads in the pond where they will receive good water flow through them," which we usually suggest to our customers as being toward the side of a water fall (as opposed to being in the middle in the strongest current). Our catalog also states, "It may take 6 to 8 weeks to see results after which it will remain effective for 4 - 6 months."  As the fountain in this case in not operational, this would preclude even placing it anywhere in a flow created by this type of water current.  I still maintain that the UV clarifier is the best route to go. 
             
            Ray       
            .
             
            In a message dated 12/7/2016 7:56:25 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
             

            Hi Angela & Ray,

             Apologies for jumping in so long after the thread started. Just to say I agree with Ray in regard to using a UV clarifier unit if possible-TMC is a good make & used on several of the ponds I look after. As a matter of interest I've personally only seen one instance of Barley Sraw used on a system & that was on what I can only describe as a lake in the grounds of a stately home in Nottinghamshire where we moved some Koi to. The system was so big they had to get planning permission from the local water company & it used 10 x Oase Biotech 30s connected in series. The feed into the pond was a fast flowing concrete gulley approx 2 feet wide x 1 foot deep. At the point just before the water from the filter complex entered the pond there was a wider section of the gulley almost exactly the size of a standard UK straw bale & that is exactly what went in there! It was very impressive system with around 500 Koi & a reed bed filter at the opposite end to the inlet which itself was half the size of a football pitch. I have seen barley straw bales used to purify water in one other instance but not fish related & that was in the drainage system of a closed railway tunnel in the Pennines that was having some serious engineering work done inside which was polluting the drainage system with old soot. The straw bales will have purified the water before it exited the tunnel & flowed into a local river.

             John<o)))<


             

            On 30 November 2016 at 03:04 "sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

             


             

            Hi Angela,
             
            A fountain does imply a shallower depth, but even though you gave no measurement in this direction, I had assumed it was deeper than only a fountain would need -- or at least several feet.  I have a 9 x 12 pond, of which about 1/4 of this is 2 feet deep, 5/8 of it is 5 feet deep and the remaining 1/8 of it is 6 feet deep (to facilitate pumping the small remaining quantity of water out that gathers at this lowest level, when I do a thorough cleaning/draining.  The 2 foot depth is used by the fish for spawning and I find that the 5 foot depth is plenty adequate as a safe haven for any predators which may try to nab a fish if they cane reach them. 
             
            Normally, if the pond isn't stocked to capacity, only about two partial water changes are all that's need during the season (from April though October).  That your daughter is not only making water changes every month, and is emptying it at these times -- apparently doing a complete water change, as I understand this -- I also have to assume (perhaps erroneously) that she has no filter system on this fish enclosure -- for lack of a better word, since I don't know if I should call it a "fountain" or a "pond."  If there is a filter system, and the emptying and refilling the enclosure is needed to eliminate the suspended algae, a UV clarifier in concert with the pumping system, again, would be the simplest (and surest) way to keep the algae at a minimum.     
             
            Enough surface cover in the form of aquatic plants though, can be just as sure in keeping the algae at bay.  I note you have much milder weather for this time of year than much of the rest of this country, with highs last week in the high 60's and low 70's.  I note too, that just a few weeks ago the temps were in the high 80's to low 90's, even though it's been in the low 60's lately.  Still, while warmer weather always stimulates algae growth, it really thrives on sunlight, and this is probably where this fish container is at a disadvantage, quite possibly receiving as much as some 8 hours of full sun, since it's been such a problem.
             
            If for any reason, an Ultra-Violet unit is not convenient, getting right back to the aquatic plants is the way to go.  Especially if this container receives a lot of sun, or even if it gets some 6 hours worth, it should have enough water lilies to provide adequate shade cover to a large area of water surface -- for starters.  Just as we've both said, small surface plants are just about a must if prime conditions for algal growth are to be kept as minimal.  Still, algae also thrives on dissolved nutrients.  As such, while water lilies are most beneficial at cutting down sunlight in the water column, they're not going to consume much of the dissolved nutrients at all, as they draw them directly from the potting medium they're roots are planted in.  One of the absolute best "nutrient-sponge-plants" that can be used is Hornwort, which floats freely in the water column without putting much of a root system in the substrate.  Anacharis (Elodea) is second-best and extremely useful in pulling excess nutrients out of the water.  Hornwort, however, does best in harder more alkaline water and while Anacharis prefers alkaline water, it will still do fine in moderately acid water.  I'm not sure how low your temperature drops through the Winter, but plants like Java Moss and Najas ("Guppy Grass") are also very good at eating excess nutrients in the water column, effectively starving out the algae.   BTW, often, just doing a major partial water change will be to add more nutrients for the algae to feed on. 
             
            There are many other useful and quite decorative surface plants that can be used to help shade the water column, some potted and some free-floating.  Parrot's Feather (Myriophyllum aquaticum) is but one of them,and then there's Water Clover, Floating Heart, Mosaic Plant, Water Poppy, the various "Snowflakes," Bogbean and such, not to mention the Azolla, Salvinia and such which we've already discussed..
             
            Ray        
             
               
             
            In a message dated 11/29/2016 3:31:56 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
             


             

            Hi Ray,
            Thank you .
            It is actually probably much larger than the measurements I gave ( deeper too) ..the fountain does not work and my daughter empties the water about once a month.  The goldfish actually have so much room and are doing so well they had babies.
            The problem is it becomes unclear within one week that is how fast the alrgeh grows . 
            I have tried telling her to get plants ... water lilies. water hyacinth, water lettuce or and of the small plants such as Azolla, Duck Weed or
            Salvinia. I think the water lilies may actually do best here in Malibu California.

            ​>​
            Hello Angela,

            I'm not quite sure what you mean when stating the area is 12 x 5 and at the
            same time saying it's a fountain -- with goldfish in it. Sounds more like
            a pond, with a fountain feature as part of it instead of a waterfall
            feature, which some water gardeners prefer. I'm assuming that this fountain is
            centered in this concrete container of sorts. This area given, of 60 sq ft
            is not really big as goldfish containers go, whether a pond or a
            "fountain." May I assume that you're attempting the keep the water clear of
            suspended algae, as it would appear? As a retired manager of one of the
            country's leading water garden supply houses, I used to sell a fair amount of
            Barley Straw to keep patrons' ponds clear with decent results.

            It does take some time though, before it starts to work, as the process
            entails allowing the barley to start decaying where after it creates hydrogen
            peroxide, which effectively kills off any suspended algae in time. Best
            results are had when placed in the current at the side of a waterfall,
            although if there's enough water movement generated by the fountain, either at
            its source near where the spray emanates from the fountain head or near the
            water's reentry back into the pond (or fountain), the barley straw could be
            placed there. To just put the barley straw at any other location in this
            fountain that lacks a strong water turbulence past it isn't going to do very
            much.

            I do need to tell you though, although many customers have had good results
            with it, a matter of "balance" becomes important as too much barley straw
            may deplete the water's oxygen content below that which the goldfish need
            for proper respiration. While, as you can see by the preference for water
            flowing past the barley straw, this is not an anaerobic process in which
            this straw putrefies, but still this rotting of the organic matter does use up
            oxygen just as any "burning" (oxidation) of matter would. My personal
            recommendation for the easiest method in controlling suspended algae is to
            use an in-line Ultra Violet "clarifier"/"filter", if your water pump is
            connected to your fountain head via some type of tubing/hosing. Here, the
            tubing is split (and valved) before the UV Unit as these gadgets require a
            slower flow than the remaining water flow, to enable the UV rays a bit of time
            to dispatch the algae. If it were a pond, it becomes
            easier, just by ensuring that approximately 2/3 of the water surface is
            covered with some type of aquatic plant(s) -- either water lilies. water
            hyacinth, water lettuce or and of the small plants such as Azolla, Duck Weed or
            Salvinia or the like. But, water lilies in particular don't like very much
            water turbulence and especially not splashing of water onto their leaves.

            Ray


            In a message dated 11/27/2016 5:59:51 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
            AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

            Anyone ever use clear-water Barley Straw Bales ..ever used by anyone or
            recommended for my daughters outside concrete fountain ( BIG water area
            12x5!) in Malibu, for her goldfish?
            I saw it on amazon;
            Summit 130 Clear-water Barley Straw Bales, 2-Pack
            by Summit Chemical Co.

            [_https://www.amazon.com/gp/ product/B0002568YK?ref%5F=pe% 5F385040%5F21588496
            0%5Fpd%5Fte%5Fs%5Fbx%5Fti& redirect=true&pldnSite=1_
            (https://www.amazon.com/gp/ product/B0002568YK?ref_=pe_ 385040_215884960_pd_te_s_bx_ ti&redirect=true&p
            ldnSite=1) ]




            Ciao, Angela Cancilla Herschel
            ,   CPBC ,
            Member : IAATE  -  IAABC - WPT
            Southern California

             

            Being Kind is more important ...than being important. ~
            California Wildlife Center, volunteer  ~

            www.cawildlife.org


             


             
             


             


             


             

             
            Group: AquaticLife Message: 57122 From: Andy Mills Date: 12/8/2016
            Subject: Striped talking catfish
            Hi, just wondering if anyone knows how long striped talking catfish
            usually live for. I've got 2, one I've had for almost 29 years and the
            other almost 10 years. I got the first one just after I started keeping
            tropical fish. The strange thing was that when I got it I didn't expect
            to have it long, back then there was no internet and the only book we
            could find any information about the fish in said that to survive they
            needed live food 2 or 3 times a week. As we couldn't get a regular
            supply of live food I thought the fish probably wouldn't live long, but
            here we are almost 29 years later and he's still here, still going
            strong and still looking healthy. He's survived all the usual beginner
            mistakes, a few tank disasters like overheating, white spot outbreak,
            etc. but is still here. The other at almost 10 is a mere youngster but
            hopefully he'll live just as long and do just as well, but I'd really
            like to know how long these fish do usually live.
            Group: AquaticLife Message: 57123 From: sevenspringss Date: 12/8/2016
            Subject: Re: Striped talking catfish
            Hi Andy,
             
            Looks like you're talking about striped Raphael Catfish.  I have a pair that are 26 years old, and I thought that was old for them.  I hadn't heard of any older ones until now.  As for food, if I have any live Blackworms, mine will get some but otherwise they're contented with sinking pellet food.  The female will come right up to the surface for briefly though -- in a 100 gallon tank.   
             
            Ray 
             
             
            In a message dated 12/8/2016 1:51:24 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes 

            Hi, just wondering if anyone knows how long striped talking catfish
            usually live for. I've got 2, one I've had for almost 29 years and the
            other almost 10 years. I got the first one just after I started keeping
            tropical fish. The strange thing was that when I got it I didn't expect
            to have it long, back then there was no internet and the only book we
            could find any information about the fish in said that to survive they
            needed live food 2 or 3 times a week. As we couldn't get a regular
            supply of live food I thought the fish probably wouldn't live long, but
            here we are almost 29 years later and he's still here, still going
            strong and still looking healthy. He's survived all the usual beginner
            mistakes, a few tank disasters like overheating, white spot outbreak,
            etc. but is still here. The other at almost 10 is a mere youngster but
            hopefully he'll live just as long and do just as well, but I'd really
            like to know how long these fish do usually live.

             
            Group: AquaticLife Message: 57124 From: Angela Cancilla Herschel Date: 12/10/2016
            Subject: Re: Clear-water Barley Straw Bales ?
            John,
            Thank you !

            >Apologies for jumping in so long after the thread started. Just to say I agree
            with Ray in regard to using a UV clarifier unit if possible-TMC is a good make &
            used on several of the ponds I look after. As a matter of interest I've
            personally only seen one instance of Barley Sraw used on a system & that was on
            what I can only describe as a lake in the grounds of a stately home in
            Nottinghamshire where we moved some Koi to. The system was so big they had to
            get planning permission from the local water company & it used 10 x Oase Biotech
            30s connected in series. The feed into the pond was a fast flowing concrete
            gulley approx 2 feet wide x 1 foot deep. At the point just before the water from
            the filter complex entered the pond there was a wider section of the gulley
            almost exactly the size of a standard UK straw bale & that is exactly what went
            in there! It was very impressive system with around 500 Koi & a reed bed filter
            at the opposite end to the inlet which itself was half the size of a football
            pitch. I have seen barley straw bales used to purify water in one other instance
            but not fish related & that was in the drainage system of a closed railway
            tunnel in the Pennines that was having some serious engineering work done inside
            which was polluting the drainage system with old soot. The straw bales will have
            purified the water before it exited the tunnel & flowed into a local river.

            John<o)))<


            Ciao, Angela Cancilla Herschel,   CPBC ,
            Member : IAATE  -  IAABC - WPT
            Southern California
             

            Being Kind is more important ...than being important. ~
            California Wildlife Center, volunteer  ~

            www.cawildlife.org

            Group: AquaticLife Message: 57125 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 12/12/2016
            Subject: Re: Clear-water Barley Straw Bales ?

            

            Hi Ray,

            Regarding the use of the 10 x large Biotech filters I was telling you about-you are of course quite correct in suggesting they were connected in parallel as separate units rather than in-line series, my mistake! As to the model, perhaps they are not marketed in the States or at least not called Biotech 30s-here is a link to the model in question: http://www.swelluk.com/oase-biotec-30-pond-filter/

            If you click through the thumbnails, one of them shows a lady holding one of these filters & you can see how big they physically are & that lake had 10. You are correct about these having a faster flow rate than the Bio Clear at over 7,000 US gallons per hour. Several of the ponds I look after have one of these & they do a fantastic job. Incidentally the pond I built at my girlfriend's house during the Summer has a Biotech 10 which appears to be an almost identical spec to the Bio Clear 10 you describe.

            The idea of simply sinking the barley straw to the bottom in a loose onion net in large natural ponds does sound a strange one but there is evidence to suggest that even in a slow moving or still body of water that decomposing matter will, in time, form a passive filtration source-albeit limited. Presumably the barley straw will add to this system once it begins to break down but that probably isn't the intention.

             John<o)))<


            On 08 December 2016 at 10:45 "sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

             

             

            John,
             
            The magnitude of this use of Barley Straw as a clarifier and algae control applied to this lake holding 500 Koi is impressive.  Yes, indeed this material works in keeping pond (and lake) water free of algae as your posts states.  Too, with this report, it's quite clear that the Barley Straw bales were used in conjunction with a number of 10 large Oase Biotech 30 filter boxes as the medium used in these filters -- I'm presuming being run in parallel (as separate units) rather than in an in-line series to get the greatest effect and largest possible flow of water in any given period of time.  This does directly demonstrate that the best results -- by far- are derived from Barley Straw's benefits in this application primarily as combined with a constant water flow through it.  I would go so far to say, that for Barley Straw's action in promoting algae-free water to be conclusive, that it's imperative that it be exposed to a water flow rather than merely being placed in standing water, and I thank you John, for illustrating this.  While I'm not familiar with the size of one of these Oase filter boxes, one of the most popular filters in demand when I was managing the watergarden supply firm I previously mentioned was the Oase Bio Clear - Model 10, which has a flow rate capacity of 2600 (U.S.) gallons per hour.  It might appear that one Biotech 30 may have a flow rate of 3 X this capacity.
                
            Getting back to the preference of the Barley Straw being exposed to moving water, with this is having been found to be the widely accepted method of using it -- especially in the form of bales --  I have read reports however, of parties using Barley Straw in this following manner, by just sinking it in standing water in large natural ponds, but here it was not used in bales, but loose as contained in a net-like onion bag, weighted to have it sink to the bottom.  In this way, water is allowed to freely permeate through it without it putrefying, albeit with no especial waterflow passing through it.  Additionally, I've read reports suggesting that while these loose bags of Barley Straw should best be weighted to keep them in the area that they were placed at, they should be tied to a line and have a a floating object tied to them so they may be suspended nearer the surface.  While it will still do the job it was meant to do when used in this fashion, it would take exponentially longer to realize the accomplishment of algae growth inhibition than seen as used in bales.  The normal form of Barley Straw for the use of algae control in fish ponds is as bales, just as the question here was originally posed.  Not that a bale can't be pulled apart into a much looser consistency, to be used as I just indicated, but even as used as bales within a water flow where it's action is much faster, it will still take at least one to TWO weeks to start working ABOVE 70 o F -- and up to six to eight weeks at 50 o F; these amounts of time, in the best of conditions (with a water flow).  I would have to guess that at this time of year, that even in Malibu, pond water can't be near 70 o F, when the current weather in the area presently is low 60's (F) during the day and high 40's to low 50's (F) at night.
             
            If it seems dubious that it should require a water flow to work best, for starters, as we all know organic matter of any kind with decompose when submersed in water.  Not only does a flow of water past this material best promote it's process of algae growth inhibition, but the oxygen-rich water flowing through it ensures that only aerobic Nitrobacter and Nitrosomonas populate it in breaking it down.  Just sinking Barley Straw bales to the bottom of a pond, either contained in a porous bag or netting, or by itself in the form of a bale within which little oxygen is present, will also promote its decay but as putrefaction by the action of anaerobic bacteria (Aeromonas, Pseudomonas and other similar microorganisms) which create noxious gases toxic to fish.
             
            As for the amount of Barley Straw to be used in the flowing water, other reports I've seen state using 1 pound per 2000 gallons, although we (the water garden outlet firm) recommend using it at a rate of 1 "pad" (7" x 7") per 700 gallons; we sell it in the box of 3 such 7" x 7" pads or in the 7" wide X 33' long roll of 56 such 7" x 7" pads which will treat a 13,000 (U.S.) gallon pond.  We also recommend in our catalog to' "Place the barley pads in the pond where they will receive good water flow through them," which we usually suggest to our customers as being toward the side of a water fall (as opposed to being in the middle in the strongest current). Our catalog also states, "It may take 6 to 8 weeks to see results after which it will remain effective for 4 - 6 months."  As the fountain in this case in not operational, this would preclude even placing it anywhere in a flow created by this type of water current.  I still maintain that the UV clarifier is the best route to go. 
             
            Ray       
            .
             
            In a message dated 12/7/2016 7:56:25 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
             

             

            Hi Angela & Ray,

             Apologies for jumping in so long after the thread started. Just to say I agree with Ray in regard to using a UV clarifier unit if possible-TMC is a good make & used on several of the ponds I look after. As a matter of interest I've personally only seen one instance of Barley Sraw used on a system & that was on what I can only describe as a lake in the grounds of a stately home in Nottinghamshire where we moved some Koi to. The system was so big they had to get planning permission from the local water company & it used 10 x Oase Biotech 30s connected in series. The feed into the pond was a fast flowing concrete gulley approx 2 feet wide x 1 foot deep. At the point just before the water from the filter complex entered the pond there was a wider section of the gulley almost exactly the size of a standard UK straw bale & that is exactly what went in there! It was very impressive system with around 500 Koi & a reed bed filter at the opposite end to the inlet which itself was half the size of a football pitch. I have seen barley straw bales used to purify water in one other instance but not fish related & that was in the drainage system of a closed railway tunnel in the Pennines that was having some serious engineering work done inside which was polluting the drainage system with old soot. The straw bales will have purified the water before it exited the tunnel & flowed into a local river.

             John<o)))<


             

            On 30 November 2016 at 03:04 "sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

             


             

            Hi Angela,
             
            A fountain does imply a shallower depth, but even though you gave no measurement in this direction, I had assumed it was deeper than only a fountain would need -- or at least several feet.  I have a 9 x 12 pond, of which about 1/4 of this is 2 feet deep, 5/8 of it is 5 feet deep and the remaining 1/8 of it is 6 feet deep (to facilitate pumping the small remaining quantity of water out that gathers at this lowest level, when I do a thorough cleaning/draining.  The 2 foot depth is used by the fish for spawning and I find that the 5 foot depth is plenty adequate as a safe haven for any predators which may try to nab a fish if they cane reach them. 
             
            Normally, if the pond isn't stocked to capacity, only about two partial water changes are all that's need during the season (from April though October).  That your daughter is not only making water changes every month, and is emptying it at these times -- apparently doing a complete water change, as I understand this -- I also have to assume (perhaps erroneously) that she has no filter system on this fish enclosure -- for lack of a better word, since I don't know if I should call it a "fountain" or a "pond."  If there is a filter system, and the emptying and refilling the enclosure is needed to eliminate the suspended algae, a UV clarifier in concert with the pumping system, again, would be the simplest (and surest) way to keep the algae at a minimum.     
             
            Enough surface cover in the form of aquatic plants though, can be just as sure in keeping the algae at bay.  I note you have much milder weather for this time of year than much of the rest of this country, with highs last week in the high 60's and low 70's.  I note too, that just a few weeks ago the temps were in the high 80's to low 90's, even though it's been in the low 60's lately.  Still, while warmer weather always stimulates algae growth, it really thrives on sunlight, and this is probably where this fish container is at a disadvantage, quite possibly receiving as much as some 8 hours of full sun, since it's been such a problem.
             
            If for any reason, an Ultra-Violet unit is not convenient, getting right back to the aquatic plants is the way to go.  Especially if this container receives a lot of sun, or even if it gets some 6 hours worth, it should have enough water lilies to provide adequate shade cover to a large area of water surface -- for starters.  Just as we've both said, small surface plants are just about a must if prime conditions for algal growth are to be kept as minimal.  Still, algae also thrives on dissolved nutrients.  As such, while water lilies are most beneficial at cutting down sunlight in the water column, they're not going to consume much of the dissolved nutrients at all, as they draw them directly from the potting medium they're roots are planted in.  One of the absolute best "nutrient-sponge-plants" that can be used is Hornwort, which floats freely in the water column without putting much of a root system in the substrate.  Anacharis (Elodea) is second-best and extremely useful in pulling excess nutrients out of the water.  Hornwort, however, does best in harder more alkaline water and while Anacharis prefers alkaline water, it will still do fine in moderately acid water.  I'm not sure how low your temperature drops through the Winter, but plants like Java Moss and Najas ("Guppy Grass") are also very good at eating excess nutrients in the water column, effectively starving out the algae.   BTW, often, just doing a major partial water change will be to add more nutrients for the algae to feed on. 
             
            There are many other useful and quite decorative surface plants that can be used to help shade the water column, some potted and some free-floating.  Parrot's Feather (Myriophyllum aquaticum) is but one of them,and then there's Water Clover, Floating Heart, Mosaic Plant, Water Poppy, the various "Snowflakes," Bogbean and such, not to mention the Azolla, Salvinia and such which we've already discussed..
             
            Ray        
             
               
             
            In a message dated 11/29/2016 3:31:56 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
             


             

            Hi Ray,
            Thank you .
            It is actually probably much larger than the measurements I gave ( deeper too) ..the fountain does not work and my daughter empties the water about once a month.  The goldfish actually have so much room and are doing so well they had babies.
            The problem is it becomes unclear within one week that is how fast the alrgeh grows . 
            I have tried telling her to get plants ... water lilies. water hyacinth, water lettuce or and of the small plants such as Azolla, Duck Weed or
            Salvinia. I think the water lilies may actually do best here in Malibu California.

            ​>​
            Hello Angela,

            I'm not quite sure what you mean when stating the area is 12 x 5 and at the
            same time saying it's a fountain -- with goldfish in it. Sounds more like
            a pond, with a fountain feature as part of it instead of a waterfall
            feature, which some water gardeners prefer. I'm assuming that this fountain is
            centered in this concrete container of sorts. This area given, of 60 sq ft
            is not really big as goldfish containers go, whether a pond or a
            "fountain." May I assume that you're attempting the keep the water clear of
            suspended algae, as it would appear? As a retired manager of one of the
            country's leading water garden supply houses, I used to sell a fair amount of
            Barley Straw to keep patrons' ponds clear with decent results.

            It does take some time though, before it starts to work, as the process
            entails allowing the barley to start decaying where after it creates hydrogen
            peroxide, which effectively kills off any suspended algae in time. Best
            results are had when placed in the current at the side of a waterfall,
            although if there's enough water movement generated by the fountain, either at
            its source near where the spray emanates from the fountain head or near the
            water's reentry back into the pond (or fountain), the barley straw could be
            placed there. To just put the barley straw at any other location in this
            fountain that lacks a strong water turbulence past it isn't going to do very
            much.

            I do need to tell you though, although many customers have had good results
            with it, a matter of "balance" becomes important as too much barley straw
            may deplete the water's oxygen content below that which the goldfish need
            for proper respiration. While, as you can see by the preference for water
            flowing past the barley straw, this is not an anaerobic process in which
            this straw putrefies, but still this rotting of the organic matter does use up
            oxygen just as any "burning" (oxidation) of matter would. My personal
            recommendation for the easiest method in controlling suspended algae is to
            use an in-line Ultra Violet "clarifier"/"filter", if your water pump is
            connected to your fountain head via some type of tubing/hosing. Here, the
            tubing is split (and valved) before the UV Unit as these gadgets require a
            slower flow than the remaining water flow, to enable the UV rays a bit of time
            to dispatch the algae. If it were a pond, it becomes
            easier, just by ensuring that approximately 2/3 of the water surface is
            covered with some type of aquatic plant(s) -- either water lilies. water
            hyacinth, water lettuce or and of the small plants such as Azolla, Duck Weed or
            Salvinia or the like. But, water lilies in particular don't like very much
            water turbulence and especially not splashing of water onto their leaves.

            Ray


            In a message dated 11/27/2016 5:59:51 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
            AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

            Anyone ever use clear-water Barley Straw Bales ..ever used by anyone or
            recommended for my daughters outside concrete fountain ( BIG water area
            12x5!) in Malibu, for her goldfish?
            I saw it on amazon;
            Summit 130 Clear-water Barley Straw Bales, 2-Pack
            by Summit Chemical Co.

            [_https://www.amazon.com/gp/ product/B0002568YK?ref%5F=pe% 5F385040%5F21588496
            0%5Fpd%5Fte%5Fs%5Fbx%5Fti& redirect=true&pldnSite=1_
            (https://www.amazon.com/gp/ product/B0002568YK?ref_=pe_ 385040_215884960_pd_te_s_bx_ ti&redirect=true&p
            ldnSite=1) ]




            Ciao, Angela Cancilla Herschel
            ,   CPBC ,
            Member : IAATE  -  IAABC - WPT
            Southern California

             

            Being Kind is more important ...than being important. ~
            California Wildlife Center, volunteer  ~

            www.cawildlife.org


             


             
             


             


             


             

             

             
             

             


             


             

            Group: AquaticLife Message: 57126 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 12/15/2016
            Subject: Re: Striped talking catfish

            Hi Andy & Ray,

             I didn't know about these fish until now-quite amazing how long they live for. I also looked them up on YouTube & found several videos of them 'talking' out of the water. Not sure how kind this is to make them talk this way-any comments please?

             John<o)))<

            On 08 December 2016 at 19:02 "sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

             

             

            Hi Andy,
             
            Looks like you're talking about striped Raphael Catfish.  I have a pair that are 26 years old, and I thought that was old for them.  I hadn't heard of any older ones until now.  As for food, if I have any live Blackworms, mine will get some but otherwise they're contented with sinking pellet food.  The female will come right up to the surface for briefly though -- in a 100 gallon tank.   
             
            Ray 
             
             
            In a message dated 12/8/2016 1:51:24 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes 

            Hi, just wondering if anyone knows how long striped talking catfish
            usually live for. I've got 2, one I've had for almost 29 years and the
            other almost 10 years. I got the first one just after I started keeping
            tropical fish. The strange thing was that when I got it I didn't expect
            to have it long, back then there was no internet and the only book we
            could find any information about the fish in said that to survive they
            needed live food 2 or 3 times a week. As we couldn't get a regular
            supply of live food I thought the fish probably wouldn't live long, but
            here we are almost 29 years later and he's still here, still going
            strong and still looking healthy. He's survived all the usual beginner
            mistakes, a few tank disasters like overheating, white spot outbreak,
            etc. but is still here. The other at almost 10 is a mere youngster but
            hopefully he'll live just as long and do just as well, but I'd really
            like to know how long these fish do usually live.

             
             

             


             


             

            Group: AquaticLife Message: 57127 From: sevenspringss Date: 12/15/2016
            Subject: Re: Striped talking catfish
            Hi John,
             
            While I may have had these fish for a considerable length of time, I know next to nothing about them regarding their ability to "talk."  That's primarily because I had one of them out of water only once, when I caught it to bring it to a fish show about 10 or so years ago.  It made a repeated croaking sound.  As for the show, it took 1st place in the over-all Catfish show division, which included all other categories of Catfish show classes -- like Cory's, Pleco's, Synodontis and any other families of catfish that were first judged in their separate classes.  I believe that this noise is generated from them rubbing their pharyngeal plates/dentition together.  These "teeth" are found in their throat, just behind their gills.
             
            Ray
             
             
            In a message dated 12/15/2016 3:33:36 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
             

            Hi Andy & Ray,

             I didn't know about these fish until now-quite amazing how long they live for. I also looked them up on YouTube & found several videos of them 'talking' out of the water. Not sure how kind this is to make them talk this way-any comments please?

             John<o)))<

            On 08 December 2016 at 19:02 "sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

             


             

            Hi Andy,
             
            Looks like you're talking about striped Raphael Catfish.  I have a pair that are 26 years old, and I thought that was old for them.  I hadn't heard of any older ones until now.  As for food, if I have any live Blackworms, mine will get some but otherwise they're contented with sinking pellet food.  The female will come right up to the surface for briefly though -- in a 100 gallon tank.   
             
            Ray 
             
             
            In a message dated 12/8/2016 1:51:24 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes 

            Hi, just wondering if anyone knows how long striped talking catfish
            usually live for. I've got 2, one I've had for almost 29 years and the
            other almost 10 years. I got the first one just after I started keeping
            tropical fish. The strange thing was that when I got it I didn't expect
            to have it long, back then there was no internet and the only book we
            could find any information about the fish in said that to survive they
            needed live food 2 or 3 times a week. As we couldn't get a regular
            supply of live food I thought the fish probably wouldn't live long, but
            here we are almost 29 years later and he's still here, still going
            strong and still looking healthy. He's survived all the usual beginner
            mistakes, a few tank disasters like overheating, white spot outbreak,
            etc. but is still here. The other at almost 10 is a mere youngster but
            hopefully he'll live just as long and do just as well, but I'd really
            like to know how long these fish do usually live.


             
             


             


             


             

            Group: AquaticLife Message: 57128 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 12/17/2016
            Subject: Re: Striped talking catfish

            Hi Ray,

             Cogratuations on your fish winning the overall 1st place & interesting to hear how they make the noise with their teeth. Any idea how long fish teeth last between shedding? I often find old teeth shed by my Goldfish in the gravel while I'm vacuuming.

             John<o)))<

            On 15 December 2016 at 23:14 "sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

             

             

            Hi John,
             
            While I may have had these fish for a considerable length of time, I know next to nothing about them regarding their ability to "talk."  That's primarily because I had one of them out of water only once, when I caught it to bring it to a fish show about 10 or so years ago.  It made a repeated croaking sound.  As for the show, it took 1st place in the over-all Catfish show division, which included all other categories of Catfish show classes -- like Cory's, Pleco's, Synodontis and any other families of catfish that were first judged in their separate classes.  I believe that this noise is generated from them rubbing their pharyngeal plates/dentition together.  These "teeth" are found in their throat, just behind their gills.
             
            Ray
             
             
            In a message dated 12/15/2016 3:33:36 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
             

             

            Hi Andy & Ray,

             I didn't know about these fish until now-quite amazing how long they live for. I also looked them up on YouTube & found several videos of them 'talking' out of the water. Not sure how kind this is to make them talk this way-any comments please?

             John<o)))<

            On 08 December 2016 at 19:02 "sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

             


             

            Hi Andy,
             
            Looks like you're talking about striped Raphael Catfish.  I have a pair that are 26 years old, and I thought that was old for them.  I hadn't heard of any older ones until now.  As for food, if I have any live Blackworms, mine will get some but otherwise they're contented with sinking pellet food.  The female will come right up to the surface for briefly though -- in a 100 gallon tank.   
             
            Ray 
             
             
            In a message dated 12/8/2016 1:51:24 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes 

            Hi, just wondering if anyone knows how long striped talking catfish
            usually live for. I've got 2, one I've had for almost 29 years and the
            other almost 10 years. I got the first one just after I started keeping
            tropical fish. The strange thing was that when I got it I didn't expect
            to have it long, back then there was no internet and the only book we
            could find any information about the fish in said that to survive they
            needed live food 2 or 3 times a week. As we couldn't get a regular
            supply of live food I thought the fish probably wouldn't live long, but
            here we are almost 29 years later and he's still here, still going
            strong and still looking healthy. He's survived all the usual beginner
            mistakes, a few tank disasters like overheating, white spot outbreak,
            etc. but is still here. The other at almost 10 is a mere youngster but
            hopefully he'll live just as long and do just as well, but I'd really
            like to know how long these fish do usually live.


             
             


             


             


             

             

             

             


             


             

            Group: AquaticLife Message: 57129 From: sevenspringss Date: 12/17/2016
            Subject: Re: Striped talking catfish
            Hi John,
             
            Actually, I thought only sharks shed their teeth, and grew new ones in place of the ones that were lost.  While I believe they're now considered as "fish," there was a time not too long ago when they were considered as other than fish because of them having a cartilage skeleton rather than a boney skeleton. 
             
            As for the grinding plates in fishes' throats which are referred to as "teeth," I tend to doubt they would shed them.  Cichlids, for another fish family that have pharyngeal "teeth," also have normal dentition in their jaws -- which perhaps goldfish do too.  As for Cichlids shedding these and growing new ones as an ongoing process, I just couldn't tell you -- nor am I that familiar with goldfishes' teeth to be able to give you an answer.  As you're finding your goldfishes' teeth in the gravel, I still have to wonder whether they're being shed or whether they were accidentally lost from picking up pieces of gravel in a more careless way (not necessarily taking care to pick up objects in a way that may damage their teeth).
             
            Ray
             
             
            In a message dated 12/17/2016 11:51:07 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
             

            Hi Ray,

             Cogratuations on your fish winning the overall 1st place & interesting to hear how they make the noise with their teeth. Any idea how long fish teeth last between shedding? I often find old teeth shed by my Goldfish in the gravel while I'm vacuuming.

             John<o)))<

            On 15 December 2016 at 23:14 "sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

             


             

            Hi John,
             
            While I may have had these fish for a considerable length of time, I know next to nothing about them regarding their ability to "talk."  That's primarily because I had one of them out of water only once, when I caught it to bring it to a fish show about 10 or so years ago.  It made a repeated croaking sound.  As for the show, it took 1st place in the over-all Catfish show division, which included all other categories of Catfish show classes -- like Cory's, Pleco's, Synodontis and any other families of catfish that were first judged in their separate classes.  I believe that this noise is generated from them rubbing their pharyngeal plates/dentition together.  These "teeth" are found in their throat, just behind their gills.
             
            Ray
             
             
            In a message dated 12/15/2016 3:33:36 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
             


             

            Hi Andy & Ray,

             I didn't know about these fish until now-quite amazing how long they live for. I also looked them up on YouTube & found several videos of them 'talking' out of the water. Not sure how kind this is to make them talk this way-any comments please?

             John<o)))<

            On 08 December 2016 at 19:02 "sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

             


             

            Hi Andy,
             
            Looks like you're talking about striped Raphael Catfish.  I have a pair that are 26 years old, and I thought that was old for them.  I hadn't heard of any older ones until now.  As for food, if I have any live Blackworms, mine will get some but otherwise they're contented with sinking pellet food.  The female will come right up to the surface for briefly though -- in a 100 gallon tank.   
             
            Ray 
             
             
            In a message dated 12/8/2016 1:51:24 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes 

            Hi, just wondering if anyone knows how long striped talking catfish
            usually live for. I've got 2, one I've had for almost 29 years and the
            other almost 10 years. I got the first one just after I started keeping
            tropical fish. The strange thing was that when I got it I didn't expect
            to have it long, back then there was no internet and the only book we
            could find any information about the fish in said that to survive they
            needed live food 2 or 3 times a week. As we couldn't get a regular
            supply of live food I thought the fish probably wouldn't live long, but
            here we are almost 29 years later and he's still here, still going
            strong and still looking healthy. He's survived all the usual beginner
            mistakes, a few tank disasters like overheating, white spot outbreak,
            etc. but is still here. The other at almost 10 is a mere youngster but
            hopefully he'll live just as long and do just as well, but I'd really
            like to know how long these fish do usually live.


             
             


             


             


             


             


             


             


             


             

             
            Group: AquaticLife Message: 57130 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 12/18/2016
            Subject: Tame Stingray

            Hi Everyone,

             Just browsing YouTube as you do & this was one of the suggested videos which came up-quite amazing I think:

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1UcgT8pJrw

            John<o)))<

            Group: AquaticLife Message: 57131 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 12/21/2016
            Subject: Re: Striped talking catfish

            Hi Ray,

             Regarding the point you make about fish not naturally shedding their teeth but rather it being down to careless gravel grazing. I don't have anything conclusive about this either way but you may be right about that because in the wild Carps would not normally encounter such a large amount of gravel, rather the bottom of rivers or lakes would be more likely to consist of mud/clay or more vegetation so their natural urge to sift through all this would not result in any significant tooth loss. On the other hand I have heard from at least two sources where Goldfish have been kept in tanks with no gravel & the teeth still appear from time to time-this was what initially sparked my interest in this so I guess the jury's still out. I know a couple of fish vets, one of whom keeps Koi so I will email them about this & let you know what response I get.

             John<o)))<

            On 17 December 2016 at 22:29 "sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

             

             

            Hi John,
             
            Actually, I thought only sharks shed their teeth, and grew new ones in place of the ones that were lost.  While I believe they're now considered as "fish," there was a time not too long ago when they were considered as other than fish because of them having a cartilage skeleton rather than a boney skeleton. 
             
            As for the grinding plates in fishes' throats which are referred to as "teeth," I tend to doubt they would shed them.  Cichlids, for another fish family that have pharyngeal "teeth," also have normal dentition in their jaws -- which perhaps goldfish do too.  As for Cichlids shedding these and growing new ones as an ongoing process, I just couldn't tell you -- nor am I that familiar with goldfishes' teeth to be able to give you an answer.  As you're finding your goldfishes' teeth in the gravel, I still have to wonder whether they're being shed or whether they were accidentally lost from picking up pieces of gravel in a more careless way (not necessarily taking care to pick up objects in a way that may damage their teeth).
             
            Ray
             
             
            In a message dated 12/17/2016 11:51:07 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
             

             

            Hi Ray,

             Cogratuations on your fish winning the overall 1st place & interesting to hear how they make the noise with their teeth. Any idea how long fish teeth last between shedding? I often find old teeth shed by my Goldfish in the gravel while I'm vacuuming.

             John<o)))<

            On 15 December 2016 at 23:14 "sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

             


             

            Hi John,
             
            While I may have had these fish for a considerable length of time, I know next to nothing about them regarding their ability to "talk."  That's primarily because I had one of them out of water only once, when I caught it to bring it to a fish show about 10 or so years ago.  It made a repeated croaking sound.  As for the show, it took 1st place in the over-all Catfish show division, which included all other categories of Catfish show classes -- like Cory's, Pleco's, Synodontis and any other families of catfish that were first judged in their separate classes.  I believe that this noise is generated from them rubbing their pharyngeal plates/dentition together.  These "teeth" are found in their throat, just behind their gills.
             
            Ray
             
             
            In a message dated 12/15/2016 3:33:36 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
             


             

            Hi Andy & Ray,

             I didn't know about these fish until now-quite amazing how long they live for. I also looked them up on YouTube & found several videos of them 'talking' out of the water. Not sure how kind this is to make them talk this way-any comments please?

             John<o)))<

            On 08 December 2016 at 19:02 "sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

             


             

            Hi Andy,
             
            Looks like you're talking about striped Raphael Catfish.  I have a pair that are 26 years old, and I thought that was old for them.  I hadn't heard of any older ones until now.  As for food, if I have any live Blackworms, mine will get some but otherwise they're contented with sinking pellet food.  The female will come right up to the surface for briefly though -- in a 100 gallon tank.   
             
            Ray 
             
             
            In a message dated 12/8/2016 1:51:24 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes 

            Hi, just wondering if anyone knows how long striped talking catfish
            usually live for. I've got 2, one I've had for almost 29 years and the
            other almost 10 years. I got the first one just after I started keeping
            tropical fish. The strange thing was that when I got it I didn't expect
            to have it long, back then there was no internet and the only book we
            could find any information about the fish in said that to survive they
            needed live food 2 or 3 times a week. As we couldn't get a regular
            supply of live food I thought the fish probably wouldn't live long, but
            here we are almost 29 years later and he's still here, still going
            strong and still looking healthy. He's survived all the usual beginner
            mistakes, a few tank disasters like overheating, white spot outbreak,
            etc. but is still here. The other at almost 10 is a mere youngster but
            hopefully he'll live just as long and do just as well, but I'd really
            like to know how long these fish do usually live.


             
             


             


             


             


             


             


             


             


             

             

             
             

             


             


             

            Group: AquaticLife Message: 57132 From: sevenspringss Date: 12/21/2016
            Subject: Re: Striped talking catfish
            Hi John,
             
            My suggestion on fish loosing their teeth more by accident rather than by natural process is only speculation as I have no evidence one way or the other.  I guess what prompted me to mention this was that on several different TV programs on sharks -- the large marine type -- it was stated that these animals often lost their teeth due to biting hard objects (like steel bars of shark cages that divers sometimes use for protection) but that their teeth grow back and that their are always ones to immediately take their place.  I'm not sure how this actually works, but it sounded like the teeth growing in the rows behind the missing teeth move up into place, while the newest ones grown in behind them.  Nothing was really said about natural loss of their teeth, but that shouldn't mean either, that this doesn't happen.  Some of my Cichlids have rows of sandpaper-like teeth lining their jaws/lips, but I've never seen any of their very fine teeth on the aquarium bottoms, and I use no gravel either.  I'd be interested to learn what your vets' reply will be. 
             
            Ray
             
             
            In a message dated 12/21/2016 8:02:12 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
             

            Hi Ray,

             Regarding the point you make about fish not naturally shedding their teeth but rather it being down to careless gravel grazing. I don't have anything conclusive about this either way but you may be right about that because in the wild Carps would not normally encounter such a large amount of gravel, rather the bottom of rivers or lakes would be more likely to consist of mud/clay or more vegetation so their natural urge to sift through all this would not result in any significant tooth loss. On the other hand I have heard from at least two sources where Goldfish have been kept in tanks with no gravel & the teeth still appear from time to time-this was what initially sparked my interest in this so I guess the jury's still out. I know a couple of fish vets, one of whom keeps Koi so I will email them about this & let you know what response I get.

             John<o)))<

            On 17 December 2016 at 22:29 "sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

             


             

            Hi John,
             
            Actually, I thought only sharks shed their teeth, and grew new ones in place of the ones that were lost.  While I believe they're now considered as "fish," there was a time not too long ago when they were considered as other than fish because of them having a cartilage skeleton rather than a boney skeleton. 
             
            As for the grinding plates in fishes' throats which are referred to as "teeth," I tend to doubt they would shed them.  Cichlids, for another fish family that have pharyngeal "teeth," also have normal dentition in their jaws -- which perhaps goldfish do too.  As for Cichlids shedding these and growing new ones as an ongoing process, I just couldn't tell you -- nor am I that familiar with goldfishes' teeth to be able to give you an answer.  As you're finding your goldfishes' teeth in the gravel, I still have to wonder whether they're being shed or whether they were accidentally lost from picking up pieces of gravel in a more careless way (not necessarily taking care to pick up objects in a way that may damage their teeth).
             
            Ray
             
             
            In a message dated 12/17/2016 11:51:07 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
             


             

            Hi Ray,

             Cogratuations on your fish winning the overall 1st place & interesting to hear how they make the noise with their teeth. Any idea how long fish teeth last between shedding? I often find old teeth shed by my Goldfish in the gravel while I'm vacuuming.

             John<o)))<

            On 15 December 2016 at 23:14 "sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

             


             

            Hi John,
             
            While I may have had these fish for a considerable length of time, I know next to nothing about them regarding their ability to "talk."  That's primarily because I had one of them out of water only once, when I caught it to bring it to a fish show about 10 or so years ago.  It made a repeated croaking sound.  As for the show, it took 1st place in the over-all Catfish show division, which included all other categories of Catfish show classes -- like Cory's, Pleco's, Synodontis and any other families of catfish that were first judged in their separate classes.  I believe that this noise is generated from them rubbing their pharyngeal plates/dentition together.  These "teeth" are found in their throat, just behind their gills.
             
            Ray
             
             
            In a message dated 12/15/2016 3:33:36 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
             


             

            Hi Andy & Ray,

             I didn't know about these fish until now-quite amazing how long they live for. I also looked them up on YouTube & found several videos of them 'talking' out of the water. Not sure how kind this is to make them talk this way-any comments please?

             John<o)))<

            On 08 December 2016 at 19:02 "sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

             


             

            Hi Andy,
             
            Looks like you're talking about striped Raphael Catfish.  I have a pair that are 26 years old, and I thought that was old for them.  I hadn't heard of any older ones until now.  As for food, if I have any live Blackworms, mine will get some but otherwise they're contented with sinking pellet food.  The female will come right up to the surface for briefly though -- in a 100 gallon tank.   
             
            Ray 
             
             
            In a message dated 12/8/2016 1:51:24 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes 

            Hi, just wondering if anyone knows how long striped talking catfish
            usually live for. I've got 2, one I've had for almost 29 years and the
            other almost 10 years. I got the first one just after I started keeping
            tropical fish. The strange thing was that when I got it I didn't expect
            to have it long, back then there was no internet and the only book we
            could find any information about the fish in said that to survive they
            needed live food 2 or 3 times a week. As we couldn't get a regular
            supply of live food I thought the fish probably wouldn't live long, but
            here we are almost 29 years later and he's still here, still going
            strong and still looking healthy. He's survived all the usual beginner
            mistakes, a few tank disasters like overheating, white spot outbreak,
            etc. but is still here. The other at almost 10 is a mere youngster but
            hopefully he'll live just as long and do just as well, but I'd really
            like to know how long these fish do usually live.


             
             


             


             


             


             


             


             


             


             


             


             
             


             


             


             

             
            Group: AquaticLife Message: 57133 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 12/21/2016
            Subject: Re: Striped talking catfish

            Hi Ray,

              One of them has already responded & he didn't know! It sparked his interest though & he's sent the query out to several of his contacts so I will pass anything on when I hear from him again.

             John<o)))<

            On 21 December 2016 at 13:27 "sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

             

             

            Hi John,
             
            My suggestion on fish loosing their teeth more by accident rather than by natural process is only speculation as I have no evidence one way or the other.  I guess what prompted me to mention this was that on several different TV programs on sharks -- the large marine type -- it was stated that these animals often lost their teeth due to biting hard objects (like steel bars of shark cages that divers sometimes use for protection) but that their teeth grow back and that their are always ones to immediately take their place.  I'm not sure how this actually works, but it sounded like the teeth growing in the rows behind the missing teeth move up into place, while the newest ones grown in behind them.  Nothing was really said about natural loss of their teeth, but that shouldn't mean either, that this doesn't happen.  Some of my Cichlids have rows of sandpaper-like teeth lining their jaws/lips, but I've never seen any of their very fine teeth on the aquarium bottoms, and I use no gravel either.  I'd be interested to learn what your vets' reply will be. 
             
            Ray
             
             
            In a message dated 12/21/2016 8:02:12 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
             

             

            Hi Ray,

             Regarding the point you make about fish not naturally shedding their teeth but rather it being down to careless gravel grazing. I don't have anything conclusive about this either way but you may be right about that because in the wild Carps would not normally encounter such a large amount of gravel, rather the bottom of rivers or lakes would be more likely to consist of mud/clay or more vegetation so their natural urge to sift through all this would not result in any significant tooth loss. On the other hand I have heard from at least two sources where Goldfish have been kept in tanks with no gravel & the teeth still appear from time to time-this was what initially sparked my interest in this so I guess the jury's still out. I know a couple of fish vets, one of whom keeps Koi so I will email them about this & let you know what response I get.

             John<o)))<

            On 17 December 2016 at 22:29 "sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

             


             

            Hi John,
             
            Actually, I thought only sharks shed their teeth, and grew new ones in place of the ones that were lost.  While I believe they're now considered as "fish," there was a time not too long ago when they were considered as other than fish because of them having a cartilage skeleton rather than a boney skeleton. 
             
            As for the grinding plates in fishes' throats which are referred to as "teeth," I tend to doubt they would shed them.  Cichlids, for another fish family that have pharyngeal "teeth," also have normal dentition in their jaws -- which perhaps goldfish do too.  As for Cichlids shedding these and growing new ones as an ongoing process, I just couldn't tell you -- nor am I that familiar with goldfishes' teeth to be able to give you an answer.  As you're finding your goldfishes' teeth in the gravel, I still have to wonder whether they're being shed or whether they were accidentally lost from picking up pieces of gravel in a more careless way (not necessarily taking care to pick up objects in a way that may damage their teeth).
             
            Ray
             
             
            In a message dated 12/17/2016 11:51:07 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
             


             

            Hi Ray,

             Cogratuations on your fish winning the overall 1st place & interesting to hear how they make the noise with their teeth. Any idea how long fish teeth last between shedding? I often find old teeth shed by my Goldfish in the gravel while I'm vacuuming.

             John<o)))<

            On 15 December 2016 at 23:14 "sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

             


             

            Hi John,
             
            While I may have had these fish for a considerable length of time, I know next to nothing about them regarding their ability to "talk."  That's primarily because I had one of them out of water only once, when I caught it to bring it to a fish show about 10 or so years ago.  It made a repeated croaking sound.  As for the show, it took 1st place in the over-all Catfish show division, which included all other categories of Catfish show classes -- like Cory's, Pleco's, Synodontis and any other families of catfish that were first judged in their separate classes.  I believe that this noise is generated from them rubbing their pharyngeal plates/dentition together.  These "teeth" are found in their throat, just behind their gills.
             
            Ray
             
             
            In a message dated 12/15/2016 3:33:36 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
             


             

            Hi Andy & Ray,

             I didn't know about these fish until now-quite amazing how long they live for. I also looked them up on YouTube & found several videos of them 'talking' out of the water. Not sure how kind this is to make them talk this way-any comments please?

             John<o)))<

            On 08 December 2016 at 19:02 "sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

             


             

            Hi Andy,
             
            Looks like you're talking about striped Raphael Catfish.  I have a pair that are 26 years old, and I thought that was old for them.  I hadn't heard of any older ones until now.  As for food, if I have any live Blackworms, mine will get some but otherwise they're contented with sinking pellet food.  The female will come right up to the surface for briefly though -- in a 100 gallon tank.   
             
            Ray 
             
             
            In a message dated 12/8/2016 1:51:24 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes 

            Hi, just wondering if anyone knows how long striped talking catfish
            usually live for. I've got 2, one I've had for almost 29 years and the
            other almost 10 years. I got the first one just after I started keeping
            tropical fish. The strange thing was that when I got it I didn't expect
            to have it long, back then there was no internet and the only book we
            could find any information about the fish in said that to survive they
            needed live food 2 or 3 times a week. As we couldn't get a regular
            supply of live food I thought the fish probably wouldn't live long, but
            here we are almost 29 years later and he's still here, still going
            strong and still looking healthy. He's survived all the usual beginner
            mistakes, a few tank disasters like overheating, white spot outbreak,
            etc. but is still here. The other at almost 10 is a mere youngster but
            hopefully he'll live just as long and do just as well, but I'd really
            like to know how long these fish do usually live.


             
             


             


             


             


             


             


             


             


             


             


             
             


             


             


             

             

             
             

             


             


             

            Group: AquaticLife Message: 57134 From: Harry Perry Date: 12/24/2016
            Subject: A message
            To every one who celebrates it...Merry Cheistmas.

            Those who don't...Peace and Happiness.

            Harry
            Group: AquaticLife Message: 57135 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 12/24/2016
            Subject: Re: Fish Teeth [Striped talking catfish]

            Hi Ray,

             I've now heard back from both my learned friends regarding fish teeth & both of them agree that the teeth get pushed out by new ones periodically &/or get lost by rough grinding of stones or vegetation.

            Happy Christmas!

             John<o)))<

            On 21 December 2016 at 13:45 "SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

             

             

            Hi Ray,

              One of them has already responded & he didn't know! It sparked his interest though & he's sent the query out to several of his contacts so I will pass anything on when I hear from him again.

             John<o)))<

            On 21 December 2016 at 13:27 "sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

             

             

            Hi John,
             
            My suggestion on fish loosing their teeth more by accident rather than by natural process is only speculation as I have no evidence one way or the other.  I guess what prompted me to mention this was that on several different TV programs on sharks -- the large marine type -- it was stated that these animals often lost their teeth due to biting hard objects (like steel bars of shark cages that divers sometimes use for protection) but that their teeth grow back and that their are always ones to immediately take their place.  I'm not sure how this actually works, but it sounded like the teeth growing in the rows behind the missing teeth move up into place, while the newest ones grown in behind them.  Nothing was really said about natural loss of their teeth, but that shouldn't mean either, that this doesn't happen.  Some of my Cichlids have rows of sandpaper-like teeth lining their jaws/lips, but I've never seen any of their very fine teeth on the aquarium bottoms, and I use no gravel either.  I'd be interested to learn what your vets' reply will be. 
             
            Ray
             
             
            In a message dated 12/21/2016 8:02:12 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
             

             

            Hi Ray,

             Regarding the point you make about fish not naturally shedding their teeth but rather it being down to careless gravel grazing. I don't have anything conclusive about this either way but you may be right about that because in the wild Carps would not normally encounter such a large amount of gravel, rather the bottom of rivers or lakes would be more likely to consist of mud/clay or more vegetation so their natural urge to sift through all this would not result in any significant tooth loss. On the other hand I have heard from at least two sources where Goldfish have been kept in tanks with no gravel & the teeth still appear from time to time-this was what initially sparked my interest in this so I guess the jury's still out. I know a couple of fish vets, one of whom keeps Koi so I will email them about this & let you know what response I get.

             John<o)))<

            On 17 December 2016 at 22:29 "sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

             


             

            Hi John,
             
            Actually, I thought only sharks shed their teeth, and grew new ones in place of the ones that were lost.  While I believe they're now considered as "fish," there was a time not too long ago when they were considered as other than fish because of them having a cartilage skeleton rather than a boney skeleton. 
             
            As for the grinding plates in fishes' throats which are referred to as "teeth," I tend to doubt they would shed them.  Cichlids, for another fish family that have pharyngeal "teeth," also have normal dentition in their jaws -- which perhaps goldfish do too.  As for Cichlids shedding these and growing new ones as an ongoing process, I just couldn't tell you -- nor am I that familiar with goldfishes' teeth to be able to give you an answer.  As you're finding your goldfishes' teeth in the gravel, I still have to wonder whether they're being shed or whether they were accidentally lost from picking up pieces of gravel in a more careless way (not necessarily taking care to pick up objects in a way that may damage their teeth).
             
            Ray
             
             
            In a message dated 12/17/2016 11:51:07 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
             


             

            Hi Ray,

             Cogratuations on your fish winning the overall 1st place & interesting to hear how they make the noise with their teeth. Any idea how long fish teeth last between shedding? I often find old teeth shed by my Goldfish in the gravel while I'm vacuuming.

             John<o)))<

            On 15 December 2016 at 23:14 "sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

             


             

            Hi John,
             
            While I may have had these fish for a considerable length of time, I know next to nothing about them regarding their ability to "talk."  That's primarily because I had one of them out of water only once, when I caught it to bring it to a fish show about 10 or so years ago.  It made a repeated croaking sound.  As for the show, it took 1st place in the over-all Catfish show division, which included all other categories of Catfish show classes -- like Cory's, Pleco's, Synodontis and any other families of catfish that were first judged in their separate classes.  I believe that this noise is generated from them rubbing their pharyngeal plates/dentition together.  These "teeth" are found in their throat, just behind their gills.
             
            Ray
             
             
            In a message dated 12/15/2016 3:33:36 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
             


             

            Hi Andy & Ray,

             I didn't know about these fish until now-quite amazing how long they live for. I also looked them up on YouTube & found several videos of them 'talking' out of the water. Not sure how kind this is to make them talk this way-any comments please?

             John<o)))<

            On 08 December 2016 at 19:02 "sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

             


             

            Hi Andy,
             
            Looks like you're talking about striped Raphael Catfish.  I have a pair that are 26 years old, and I thought that was old for them.  I hadn't heard of any older ones until now.  As for food, if I have any live Blackworms, mine will get some but otherwise they're contented with sinking pellet food.  The female will come right up to the surface for briefly though -- in a 100 gallon tank.   
             
            Ray 
             
             
            In a message dated 12/8/2016 1:51:24 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes 

            Hi, just wondering if anyone knows how long striped talking catfish
            usually live for. I've got 2, one I've had for almost 29 years and the
            other almost 10 years. I got the first one just after I started keeping
            tropical fish. The strange thing was that when I got it I didn't expect
            to have it long, back then there was no internet and the only book we
            could find any information about the fish in said that to survive they
            needed live food 2 or 3 times a week. As we couldn't get a regular
            supply of live food I thought the fish probably wouldn't live long, but
            here we are almost 29 years later and he's still here, still going
            strong and still looking healthy. He's survived all the usual beginner
            mistakes, a few tank disasters like overheating, white spot outbreak,
            etc. but is still here. The other at almost 10 is a mere youngster but
            hopefully he'll live just as long and do just as well, but I'd really
            like to know how long these fish do usually live.


             
             


             


             


             


             


             


             


             


             


             


             
             


             


             


             

             

             
             

             


             


             

             


             


             

            Group: AquaticLife Message: 57136 From: sevenspringss Date: 12/24/2016
            Subject: Re: Fish Teeth [Striped talking catfish]
            Hi John,
             
            So then, fish lose their teeth over time in one way or another -- through natural causes as well as accidentally by biting too hard of surfaces -- and get them replaced as a regular cycle of events.  That's really interesting!  Thanks for supplying these vets' responses. 
             
            A Merry Christmas to you also, and to every other member of this group who continues reading these posts here.  .
             
            Ray
             
             
            In a message dated 12/24/2016 9:10:39 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
             

            Hi Ray,

             I've now heard back from both my learned friends regarding fish teeth & both of them agree that the teeth get pushed out by new ones periodically &/or get lost by rough grinding of stones or vegetation.


            Happy Christmas!

             John<o)))<

            On 21 December 2016 at 13:45 "SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

             


             

            Hi Ray,

              One of them has already responded & he didn't know! It sparked his interest though & he's sent the query out to several of his contacts so I will pass anything on when I hear from him again.

             John<o)))<

            On 21 December 2016 at 13:27 "sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

             


             

            Hi John,
             
            My suggestion on fish loosing their teeth more by accident rather than by natural process is only speculation as I have no evidence one way or the other.  I guess what prompted me to mention this was that on several different TV programs on sharks -- the large marine type -- it was stated that these animals often lost their teeth due to biting hard objects (like steel bars of shark cages that divers sometimes use for protection) but that their teeth grow back and that their are always ones to immediately take their place.  I'm not sure how this actually works, but it sounded like the teeth growing in the rows behind the missing teeth move up into place, while the newest ones grown in behind them.  Nothing was really said about natural loss of their teeth, but that shouldn't mean either, that this doesn't happen.  Some of my Cichlids have rows of sandpaper-like teeth lining their jaws/lips, but I've never seen any of their very fine teeth on the aquarium bottoms, and I use no gravel either.  I'd be interested to learn what your vets' reply will be. 
             
            Ray
             
             
            In a message dated 12/21/2016 8:02:12 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
             


             

            Hi Ray,

             Regarding the point you make about fish not naturally shedding their teeth but rather it being down to careless gravel grazing. I don't have anything conclusive about this either way but you may be right about that because in the wild Carps would not normally encounter such a large amount of gravel, rather the bottom of rivers or lakes would be more likely to consist of mud/clay or more vegetation so their natural urge to sift through all this would not result in any significant tooth loss. On the other hand I have heard from at least two sources where Goldfish have been kept in tanks with no gravel & the teeth still appear from time to time-this was what initially sparked my interest in this so I guess the jury's still out. I know a couple of fish vets, one of whom keeps Koi so I will email them about this & let you know what response I get.

             John<o)))<

            On 17 December 2016 at 22:29 "sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

             


             

            Hi John,
             
            Actually, I thought only sharks shed their teeth, and grew new ones in place of the ones that were lost.  While I believe they're now considered as "fish," there was a time not too long ago when they were considered as other than fish because of them having a cartilage skeleton rather than a boney skeleton. 
             
            As for the grinding plates in fishes' throats which are referred to as "teeth," I tend to doubt they would shed them.  Cichlids, for another fish family that have pharyngeal "teeth," also have normal dentition in their jaws -- which perhaps goldfish do too.  As for Cichlids shedding these and growing new ones as an ongoing process, I just couldn't tell you -- nor am I that familiar with goldfishes' teeth to be able to give you an answer.  As you're finding your goldfishes' teeth in the gravel, I still have to wonder whether they're being shed or whether they were accidentally lost from picking up pieces of gravel in a more careless way (not necessarily taking care to pick up objects in a way that may damage their teeth).
             
            Ray
             
             
            In a message dated 12/17/2016 11:51:07 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
             


             

            Hi Ray,

             Cogratuations on your fish winning the overall 1st place & interesting to hear how they make the noise with their teeth. Any idea how long fish teeth last between shedding? I often find old teeth shed by my Goldfish in the gravel while I'm vacuuming.

             John<o)))<

            On 15 December 2016 at 23:14 "sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

             


             

            Hi John,
             
            While I may have had these fish for a considerable length of time, I know next to nothing about them regarding their ability to "talk."  That's primarily because I had one of them out of water only once, when I caught it to bring it to a fish show about 10 or so years ago.  It made a repeated croaking sound.  As for the show, it took 1st place in the over-all Catfish show division, which included all other categories of Catfish show classes -- like Cory's, Pleco's, Synodontis and any other families of catfish that were first judged in their separate classes.  I believe that this noise is generated from them rubbing their pharyngeal plates/dentition together.  These "teeth" are found in their throat, just behind their gills.
             
            Ray
             
             
            In a message dated 12/15/2016 3:33:36 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
             


             

            Hi Andy & Ray,

             I didn't know about these fish until now-quite amazing how long they live for. I also looked them up on YouTube & found several videos of them 'talking' out of the water. Not sure how kind this is to make them talk this way-any comments please?

             John<o)))<

            On 08 December 2016 at 19:02 "sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

             


             

            Hi Andy,
             
            Looks like you're talking about striped Raphael Catfish.  I have a pair that are 26 years old, and I thought that was old for them.  I hadn't heard of any older ones until now.  As for food, if I have any live Blackworms, mine will get some but otherwise they're contented with sinking pellet food.  The female will come right up to the surface for briefly though -- in a 100 gallon tank.   
             
            Ray 
             
             
            In a message dated 12/8/2016 1:51:24 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes 

            Hi, just wondering if anyone knows how long striped talking catfish
            usually live for. I've got 2, one I've had for almost 29 years and the
            other almost 10 years. I got the first one just after I started keeping
            tropical fish. The strange thing was that when I got it I didn't expect
            to have it long, back then there was no internet and the only book we
            could find any information about the fish in said that to survive they
            needed live food 2 or 3 times a week. As we couldn't get a regular
            supply of live food I thought the fish probably wouldn't live long, but
            here we are almost 29 years later and he's still here, still going
            strong and still looking healthy. He's survived all the usual beginner
            mistakes, a few tank disasters like overheating, white spot outbreak,
            etc. but is still here. The other at almost 10 is a mere youngster but
            hopefully he'll live just as long and do just as well, but I'd really
            like to know how long these fish do usually live.


             
             


             


             


             


             


             


             


             


             


             


             
             


             


             


             


             


             
             


             


             


             


             


             


             

             
            Group: AquaticLife Message: 57137 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 12/24/2016
            Subject: Re: A message

            Thank you Harry-a very Merry Christmas to you too!

             John<o)))<

            On 24 December 2016 at 18:09 "Harry Perry harryfisherman@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

             

            To every one who celebrates it...Merry Cheistmas.

            Those who don't...Peace and Happiness.

            Harry


             


             

            Group: AquaticLife Message: 57138 From: sevenspringss Date: 12/24/2016
            Subject: Re: A message
            Harry,
             
            Have a very Happy Holiday, and Peace and Happiness yourself, as you put it, regardless of what you celebrate.  Hoping the Season brings you Joy.
             
            Ray
             
             
            In a message dated 12/24/2016 10:48:12 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
             

            Thank you Harry-a very Merry Christmas to you too!

             John<o)))<

            On 24 December 2016 at 18:09 "Harry Perry harryfisherman@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

             

            To every one who celebrates it...Merry Cheistmas.

            Those who don't...Peace and Happiness.

            Harry


             


             

             
            Group: AquaticLife Message: 57139 From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: 1/27/2017
            Subject: Money!!!, Friday, 27 January 2017
            Attachments :
              "Money!!!" reminder
              When
              Friday, 27 January 2017
              09:00 PM to 09:30 PM
              (GMT) Greenwich Mean Time - Dublin / Edinburgh / Lisbon / London
              From
              AquaticLife   Calendar
              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57140 From: joe t Date: 2/4/2017
              Subject: Re: Money!!!, Friday, 27 January 2017
              What's this all about?

              Joe T

              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57141 From: sevenspringss Date: 2/4/2017
              Subject: Re: Money!!!, Friday, 27 January 2017
              It's not of much concern if you're referring to the original message to this thread as it looks like spam, which a couple of us moderators were discussing.  It doesn't look harmful though, but just annoying (and not welcomed here of course).
               
              Ray
               
               
              In a message dated 2/4/2017 2:15:52 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
               

              What's this all about?

              Joe T

               
              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57142 From: ptimlin Date: 2/6/2017
              Subject: Chicago's Shedd Aquarium announced death of lungfish "Grandad"

              Full article can be found here...


              http://www.sheddaquarium.org/blog/2017/february/an-era-passes-with-granddad/


              But thought some of you might be interested since often times the lifespan of fish are asked about. Well Grandad, an Australian lungfish, was brought to the Shedd Aquarium in 1933 !!! He was an adult when collected so he may already have been years old. When they finish the full necropsy, the report should show exactly how old he was by examining the bone behind the ear that like a tree's rings adds yearly layers that can be counted. But certainly he was older than the 84 years he lived at the aquarium. 


              Pretty amazing.


              Patrick


              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57143 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 2/6/2017
              Subject: Re: Chicago's Shedd Aquarium announced death of lungfish "Grandad"

              Hi Patrick,

               Thank you for sharing this-very sad to hear but what an incredible life he's had. There are several short videos on YouTube of Grandad, it will be interesting to hear exactly how old he was-in one of the clips a member of staff said he may already have been around 10 years old when he was brought to the aquarium.

              John<o)))<

              On 06 February 2017 at 22:01 "ptimlin@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

               

               

              Full article can be found here...


              http://www.sheddaquarium.org/blog/2017/february/an-era-passes-with-granddad/


              But thought some of you might be interested since often times the lifespan of fish are asked about. Well Grandad, an Australian lungfish, was brought to the Shedd Aquarium in 1933 !!! He was an adult when collected so he may already have been years old. When they finish the full necropsy, the report should show exactly how old he was by examining the bone behind the ear that like a tree's rings adds yearly layers that can be counted. But certainly he was older than the 84 years he lived at the aquarium. 


              Pretty amazing.


              Patrick


               


               


               

              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57144 From: piaba Date: 2/7/2017
              Subject: Fw: Chicago's Shedd Aquarium announced death of lungfish "Grandad"
              the amazing thing is, lungfish are tetrapods and thus technically more closely related to us than they are to salmon, sharks and other "fish."


               
              ======== tsuh yang 


              ________________________________________________________________________
              1a. Chicago's Shedd Aquarium announced death of lungfish "Grandad"
                  Posted by:  ptimlin@... ptimlin
                  Date: Mon Feb 6, 2017 2:01 pm ((PST))

              Full article can be found here...

              http://www.sheddaquarium.org/blog/2017/february/an-era-passes-with-granddad/ http://www.sheddaquarium.org/blog/2017/february/an-era-passes-with-granddad/

              But thought some of you might be interested since often times the lifespan of fish are asked about. Well Grandad, an Australian lungfish, was brought to the Shedd Aquarium in 1933 !!! He was an adult when collected so he may already have been years old. When they finish the full necropsy, the report should show exactly how old he was by examining the bone behind the ear that like a tree's rings adds yearly layers that can be counted. But certainly he was older than the 84 years he lived at the aquarium.

              Pretty amazing.

              Patrick




              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57145 From: Angela Cancilla Herschel Date: 2/19/2017
              Subject: Radioactive Plume From Fukushima Makes Landfall on West Coast

              It's Finally Here: Radioactive Plume From Fukushima Makes Landfall on West Coast.


              [http://www.environews.tv/121216-seaborne-cesium-134-fukushima-makes-landfall-us-1st-time-oregon-coast/]

              Ciao, Angela Cancilla Herschel, CPBC;   
              Member:  IAABC - IAATE - WPT
              Southern California

              Being kind is more important ..than being important. ~

              California Wildlife Center,volunteer ~
              www.cawildlife.org

              sent from my iPhone 
              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57146 From: Angela Cancilla Herschel Date: 3/2/2017
              Subject: We Know Why Sharks Don't Eat Their Roommates

              We Know Why Sharks Don't Eat Their Roommates





              Ciao, Angela Cancilla Herschel, CPBC;   
              Member:  IAABC - IAATE - WPT
              Southern California

              Being kind is more important ..than being important. ~

              California Wildlife Center,volunteer ~
              www.cawildlife.org

              sent from my iPhone 
              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57147 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 3/2/2017
              Subject: Re: We Know Why Sharks Don't Eat Their Roommates

              Hi Angela,

               That was a very interesting read, thank you for sharing. Why sharks don't eat their tankmates is one of those obvious questions that you just don't think about until it's mentioned!

               John<o)))<

              On 02 March 2017 at 15:51 "Angela Cancilla Herschel angelasfeathers@gmail.com [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

               

               

              We Know Why Sharks Don't Eat Their Roommates





              Ciao, Angela Cancilla Herschel, CPBC;   
              Member:  IAABC - IAATE - WPT
              Southern California

              Being kind is more important ..than being important. ~

              California Wildlife Center,volunteer ~
              www.cawildlife.org

              sent from my iPhone 

               


               


               

              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57148 From: piaba Date: 3/3/2017
              Subject: Chicago's Shedd Aquarium announced death of lungfish "Grandad"
              the amazing thing is, lungfish are tetrapods and thus technically more closely related to us than they are to salmon, sharks and other "fish."
               
              ======== tsuh yang 


              ________________________________________________________________________
              1a. Chicago's Shedd Aquarium announced death of lungfish "Grandad"
                  Posted by:  ptimlin@... ptimlin
                  Date: Mon Feb 6, 2017 2:01 pm ((PST))

              Full article can be found here...

              http://www.sheddaquarium.org/blog/2017/february/an-era-passes-with-granddad/ http://www.sheddaquarium.org/blog/2017/february/an-era-passes-with-granddad/

              But thought some of you might be interested since often times the lifespan of fish are asked about. Well Grandad, an Australian lungfish, was brought to the Shedd Aquarium in 1933 !!! He was an adult when collected so he may already have been years old. When they finish the full necropsy, the report should show exactly how old he was by examining the bone behind the ear that like a tree's rings adds yearly layers that can be counted. But certainly he was older than the 84 years he lived at the aquarium.

              Pretty amazing.

              Patrick


              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57149 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 3/3/2017
              Subject: A Pond With A View
              Hi Everyone,

              I was recently at Great Malvern in the West Midlands near Worcester & saw this
              patio pond which must have one of the best views in the world but I doubt the
              fish appreciate it! The view is northeast towards Birmingham.

              John<o)))<

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57150 From: Harry Perry Date: 3/3/2017
              Subject: Re: A Pond With A View
              Could we have a link please?.

              Harry
              --------------------------------------------
              On Fri, 3/3/17, SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

              Subject: [AquaticLife] A Pond With A View
              To: "TotallyGoldfish@yahoogroups.com" <totallygoldfish@yahoogroups.com>, "aquaticlife" <aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com>
              Date: Friday, March 3, 2017, 7:35 PM


               









              Hi Everyone,



              I was recently at Great Malvern in the West Midlands near
              Worcester & saw this

              patio pond which must have one of the best views in the
              world but I doubt the

              fish appreciate it! The view is northeast towards
              Birmingham.



              John<o)))<



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57151 From: Andy Mills Date: 3/6/2017
              Subject: Freshwater turbo snail, blue turbo snail, Celetaia persculpta
              Hi, was at a local shop last week and saw some of these snails. Am
              always on the lookout for different types of snail. I didn't even
              realise there were freshwater turbo snails, I thought they were all
              marine. Anyway I got a couple of them and tried to find information on
              them when I got home. There seems to be very little information on
              them, but the couple of sites that mention them call them either blue
              turbo snail or the species name Celetaia persculpta. Since I put them
              in the tank they don't seem to have moved much, I think they're still
              alive as their trap doors appear to be closed but they don't seem to be
              doing much, unlike most of the other snails I've got which are always
              climbing all over the place. Does anyone know anything about them or
              has anyone ever kept them? Here's a link to one of the sites I found
              which has a small amount of information on them.

              http://www.petworldrochester.com/blue-turbo-snail-celetaia-persculpta/
              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57152 From: sevenspringss Date: 3/6/2017
              Subject: Re: Freshwater turbo snail, blue turbo snail, Celetaia persculpta
              Hi Andy,
               
              I appreciate your posting your concern regarding this freshwater "Blue" turbo snail, but I've never heard of it.  I regret to have to say, that I'm unable to help you this time.  It appears not to be very well established in the aquarium hobby yet.. 
               
              Ray
               
               
              In a message dated 3/6/2017 2:15:58 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
               

              Hi, was at a local shop last week and saw some of these snails. Am
              always on the lookout for different types of snail. I didn't even
              realise there were freshwater turbo snails, I thought they were all
              marine. Anyway I got a couple of them and tried to find information on
              them when I got home. There seems to be very little information on
              them, but the couple of sites that mention them call them either blue
              turbo snail or the species name Celetaia persculpta. Since I put them
              in the tank they don't seem to have moved much, I think they're still
              alive as their trap doors appear to be closed but they don't seem to be
              doing much, unlike most of the other snails I've got which are always
              climbing all over the place. Does anyone know anything about them or
              has anyone ever kept them? Here's a link to one of the sites I found
              which has a small amount of information on them.

              http://www.petworldrochester.com/blue-turbo-snail-celetaia-persculpta/

               
              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57153 From: Angela Cancilla Herschel Date: 3/6/2017
              Subject: Great Barrier Reef dead at 25 million years old.
              The Great Barrier Reef 'dies at 25 million years old after succumbing to coral bleaching', scientists declare  – which would bring an end to the colourful life of the world's largest single structure of living organisms.

              [https://nypost.com/2016/10/14/the-great-barrier-reef-is-dead-at-25-million-years-old/]


              Ciao, Angela Cancilla Herschel, CPBC;   
              Member:  IAABC - IAATE - WPT
              Southern California

              Being kind is more important ..than being important. ~

              California Wildlife Center,volunteer ~
              www.cawildlife.org

              sent from my iPhone 
              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57154 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 3/7/2017
              Subject: Re: A Pond With A View
              Hi Harry,

              Sorry you couldn't see the photo, I attached it to my email & it was visible
              on another Yahoo! forum I'm on so I don't know why it dodn't show on here. I've
              attacehd it again, if this doesn't work I'll post it to the photo section.

              John<o)))<

              > On 04 March 2017 at 01:44 "Harry Perry harryfisherman@... [AquaticLife]"
              > <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              > Could we have a link please?.
              >
              > Harry
              > --------------------------------------------
              > On Fri, 3/3/17, SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@... [AquaticLife]
              > <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
              >
              > Subject: [AquaticLife] A Pond With A View
              > To: "TotallyGoldfish@yahoogroups.com" <totallygoldfish@yahoogroups.com>,
              > "aquaticlife" <aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com>
              > Date: Friday, March 3, 2017, 7:35 PM
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Hi Everyone,
              >
              >
              >
              > I was recently at Great Malvern in the West Midlands near
              > Worcester & saw this
              >
              > patio pond which must have one of the best views in the
              > world but I doubt the
              >
              > fish appreciate it! The view is northeast towards
              > Birmingham.
              >
              >
              >
              > John<o)))<
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >




              >




              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57155 From: Harry Perry Date: 3/7/2017
              Subject: John....Re: [AquaticLife] A Pond With A View
              This group isn't set up to accept attachments.

              Harry



              -----------------------------------------
              On Tue, 3/7/17, SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

              Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] A Pond With A View
              To: "aquaticlife" <aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com>
              Date: Tuesday, March 7, 2017, 8:16 PM


               



                 


                   
                     
                     
                     Hi Harry,



              Sorry you couldn't see the photo, I attached it to my
              email & it was visible

              on another Yahoo! forum I'm on so I don't know why
              it dodn't show on here. I've

              attacehd it again, if this doesn't work I'll post it
              to the photo section.



              John<o)))<
              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57156 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 3/8/2017
              Subject: Re: John....Re: [AquaticLife] A Pond With A View

              Ok, thanks for letting me know-it should be visible now. Also apologies for my abysmal spelling in the last message!

               John<o)))<

              On 08 March 2017 at 02:23 "Harry Perry harryfisherman@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

               

              This group isn't set up to accept attachments.

              Harry

              -----------------------------------------
              On Tue, 3/7/17, SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

              Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] A Pond With A View
              To: "aquaticlife" <aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com>
              Date: Tuesday, March 7, 2017, 8:16 PM


               



                 


                   
                     
                     
                     Hi Harry,



              Sorry you couldn't see the photo, I attached it to my
              email & it was visible

              on another Yahoo! forum I'm on so I don't know why
              it dodn't show on here. I've

              attacehd it again, if this doesn't work I'll post it
              to the photo section.



              John<o)))<




               


               

              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57157 From: Jan Künzl Date: 3/14/2017
              Subject: Illustrated Infographic about Marine Habitats
              To whom it may concern,

              In addition to the animated explanatory film "Awesome Oceans", we just published an infographic. Both can be viewed and downloaded here (web- and print-version): http://edeos.org/en/portfolio/infographic-oceans/

              Video and infographic are about the fascination of marine life, but also about the problems it is facing, e.g. plastic waste, overfishing, loss of biodiversity or climate change.

              Both have a Creative Commons license and can be used free of charge in any context.

              Further free media about environmental education, political education, global learning and development cooperation are available in our download area. (english versions at the bottom of the page): http://edeos.org/en/downloads-erklaervideos-unterrichtsmaterialien/

              If you have any questions, please let me know.


              Best regards,
              Jan Künzl

              --

              managing director
              edeos- digital education GmbH

              Schonensche Str. 3
              10439 Berlin/Germany
              Tel: 0049 030/ 68 00 43 22
              Mob: 0049 0176/ 207 906 28
              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57158 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 3/15/2017
              Subject: Re: Illustrated Infographic about Marine Habitats

              Very thought provoking-thanks for posting.

               John<o)))<


              On 14 March 2017 at 10:46 "Jan Künzl jan.kuenzl@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

               

              To whom it may concern,

              In addition to the animated explanatory film "Awesome Oceans", we just published an infographic. Both can be viewed and downloaded here (web- and print-version): http://edeos.org/en/portfolio/infographic-oceans/

              Video and infographic are about the fascination of marine life, but also about the problems it is facing, e.g. plastic waste, overfishing, loss of biodiversity or climate change.

              Both have a Creative Commons license and can be used free of charge in any context.

              Further free media about environmental education, political education, global learning and development cooperation are available in our download area. (english versions at the bottom of the page): http://edeos.org/en/downloads-erklaervideos-unterrichtsmaterialien/

              If you have any questions, please let me know.

              Best regards,
              Jan Künzl

              --

              managing director
              edeos- digital education GmbH

              Schonensche Str. 3
              10439 Berlin/Germany
              Tel: 0049 030/ 68 00 43 22
              Mob: 0049 0176/ 207 906 28


               


               

              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57159 From: Andy Mills Date: 4/2/2017
              Subject: Has anyone ever kept striped piano snails
              Hi, was just wondering if anyone has ever kept striped piano snails,
              species/scientific name is Taia naticoides. From what I've read about
              them they're quite rare to find for sale but are reasonably easy to keep
              and can sometimes even breed, although they are slow reproducers. I
              managed to get hold of 3 last week and so far so good. 2 of them seem
              to spend most of their time climbing on the glass of the tank and the
              other spends more time on the bottom but appears to be moving around.
              They're quite unusual and nicely marked, it would be nice if they did
              breed. Unfortunately for anyone who remembers me writing about the
              freshwater turbo snails a few weeks ago, that experience didn't go well.
              They went into the tank and didn't seem to be moving around much, if
              at all, I certainly never saw them on the glass. One died within the
              first week and, although it seemed the other may have started to move
              around a little more, that one was also dead a few days afterwards.
              I've since found out that they don't seem to settle into tank life very
              well, one site said they're totally unsuitable as aquarium snails as
              they just don't seem to adjust well, even if natural conditions are
              reproduced. So, needless to say I won't be trying them again.
              Hopefully though these new piano snails will do better, they certainly
              seem quite active at the moment.
              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57160 From: sevenspringss Date: 4/2/2017
              Subject: Re: Has anyone ever kept striped piano snails
              If anyone on this group has kept striped piano snails, there has never been a mention of them since Aaron (group owner) had changed the name of this group over 15 years ago to its present title, and for a good while before the name change when it used to be called Freshwater Tropical Fish Aquarium group. 
               
              Ray
               
               
               
              In a message dated 4/2/2017 11:34:24 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
               

              Hi, was just wondering if anyone has ever kept striped piano snails,
              species/scientific name is Taia naticoides. From what I've read about
              them they're quite rare to find for sale but are reasonably easy to keep
              and can sometimes even breed, although they are slow reproducers. I
              managed to get hold of 3 last week and so far so good. 2 of them seem
              to spend most of their time climbing on the glass of the tank and the
              other spends more time on the bottom but appears to be moving around.
              They're quite unusual and nicely marked, it would be nice if they did
              breed. Unfortunately for anyone who remembers me writing about the
              freshwater turbo snails a few weeks ago, that experience didn't go well.
              They went into the tank and didn't seem to be moving around much, if
              at all, I certainly never saw them on the glass. One died within the
              first week and, although it seemed the other may have started to move
              around a little more, that one was also dead a few days afterwards.
              I've since found out that they don't seem to settle into tank life very
              well, one site said they're totally unsuitable as aquarium snails as
              they just don't seem to adjust well, even if natural conditions are
              reproduced. So, needless to say I won't be trying them again.
              Hopefully though these new piano snails will do better, they certainly
              seem quite active at the moment.

               
              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57161 From: Angela Cancilla Herschel Date: 5/31/2017
              Subject: Exploring deep sea near Australia, scientists find 'faceless' fish.

              Scientists exploring deep sea near Australia find 'faceless' fish: 'We're not even scratching the surface' 




              image1.jpeg


              Ciao, Angela Cancilla Herschel, CPBC;   
              Member:  IAABC - IAATE - WPT
              Southern California

              Being kind is more important ..than being important. ~

              California Wildlife Center,volunteer ~
              www.cawildlife.org

              sent from my iPhone 
              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57162 From: sevenspringss Date: 5/31/2017
              Subject: Re: Exploring deep sea near Australia, scientists find 'faceles...
              Unbelievably unusual, but interesting. I'm presuming the eyes are those
              small medium gray disk shapes about 2/3 the way up what can't be described
              as a face! Thanks for posting.

              Ray


              In a message dated 5/31/2017 3:10:22 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
              AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:









              Scientists exploring deep sea near Australia find 'faceless' fish: 'We're
              not even scratching the surface'



              [http://tinyurl.com/yco4jeou%5d






              Ciao, Angela Cancilla Herschel, CPBC;
              Member: IAABC - IAATE - WPT

              Southern California


              Being kind is more important ..than being important. ~

              California Wildlife Center,volunteer ~
              _www.cawildlife.org_ (http://www.californiawildlifecenter.org/)


              sent from my iPhone









              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57163 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 5/31/2017
              Subject: Re: Exploring deep sea near Australia, scientists find 'faceles...

              I think you're right about they eyes Ray, presumably as the creature lives so far from any natural light it has no need for eyesight. The fact that the fish was caught in the 19th Century begs the question as to how it was collected-maybe it was just washed up? That fish which sits up on it's fins sounds interesting too!

               John<o)))<

              On 31 May 2017 at 21:41 "sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

               


              Unbelievably unusual, but interesting. I'm presuming the eyes are those
              small medium gray disk shapes about 2/3 the way up what can't be described
              as a face! Thanks for posting.

              Ray


              In a message dated 5/31/2017 3:10:22 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
              AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

              Scientists exploring deep sea near Australia find 'faceless' fish: 'We're
              not even scratching the surface'

              [http://tinyurl.com/yco4jeou]

              Ciao, Angela Cancilla Herschel, CPBC;
              Member: IAABC - IAATE - WPT

              Southern California

              Being kind is more important ..than being important. ~

              California Wildlife Center,volunteer ~
              _www.cawildlife.org_ (http://www.californiawildlifecenter.org/)

              sent from my iPhone

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


               


               

              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57164 From: sevenspringss Date: 5/31/2017
              Subject: Re: Exploring deep sea near Australia, scientists find 'faceles...
              John,
               
              I was glad to see Angela posting something, and quite "scientific" too, as usual.  Quite an interesting creature.  If the fish that sits up on its fins was in this same thread, I must have missed it, but I seem to recall reading about it in the past.  Perhaps that's what you're referring to.  I didn't realize that this "faceless" one was caught in the 19th Century, something else it appears I missed.  I remember that at least one Caelacanth was caught in a trawling net.  Maybe that's how this very odd one was caught.  I've always found Caelacanth fishes (there a several species of them) to be very interesting, especially since they go back to prehistoric times and show evolution of limbs.    
               
              Ray
               
               
              In a message dated 5/31/2017 5:50:03 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
               

              I think you're right about they eyes Ray, presumably as the creature lives so far from any natural light it has no need for eyesight. The fact that the fish was caught in the 19th Century begs the question as to how it was collected-maybe it was just washed up? That fish which sits up on it's fins sounds interesting too!

               John<o)))<

              On 31 May 2017 at 21:41 "sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

               


              Unbelievably unusual, but interesting. I'm presuming the eyes are those
              small medium gray disk shapes about 2/3 the way up what can't be described
              as a face! Thanks for posting.

              Ray


              In a message dated 5/31/2017 3:10:22 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
              AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

              Scientists exploring deep sea near Australia find 'faceless' fish: 'We're
              not even scratching the surface'

              [http://tinyurl.com/yco4jeou]

              Ciao, Angela Cancilla Herschel, CPBC;
              Member: IAABC - IAATE - WPT

              Southern California

              Being kind is more important ..than being important. ~

              California Wildlife Center,volunteer ~
              _www.cawildlife.org_ (http://www.californiawildlifecenter.org/)

              sent from my iPhone

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


               


               

               
              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57165 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 5/31/2017
              Subject: Re: Exploring deep sea near Australia, scientists find 'faceles...

              Ray, the references I quoted were mentioned in the link on Angela's original post.

               John.

              On 31 May 2017 at 23:52 "sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

               

               

              John,
               
              I was glad to see Angela posting something, and quite "scientific" too, as usual.  Quite an interesting creature.  If the fish that sits up on its fins was in this same thread, I must have missed it, but I seem to recall reading about it in the past.  Perhaps that's what you're referring to.  I didn't realize that this "faceless" one was caught in the 19th Century, something else it appears I missed.  I remember that at least one Caelacanth was caught in a trawling net.  Maybe that's how this very odd one was caught.  I've always found Caelacanth fishes (there a several species of them) to be very interesting, especially since they go back to prehistoric times and show evolution of limbs.    
               
              Ray
               
               
              In a message dated 5/31/2017 5:50:03 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
               

               

              I think you're right about they eyes Ray, presumably as the creature lives so far from any natural light it has no need for eyesight. The fact that the fish was caught in the 19th Century begs the question as to how it was collected-maybe it was just washed up? That fish which sits up on it's fins sounds interesting too!

               John<o)))<

              On 31 May 2017 at 21:41 "sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

               


              Unbelievably unusual, but interesting. I'm presuming the eyes are those
              small medium gray disk shapes about 2/3 the way up what can't be described
              as a face! Thanks for posting.

              Ray


              In a message dated 5/31/2017 3:10:22 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
              AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

              Scientists exploring deep sea near Australia find 'faceless' fish: 'We're
              not even scratching the surface'

              [http://tinyurl.com/yco4jeou]

              Ciao, Angela Cancilla Herschel, CPBC;
              Member: IAABC - IAATE - WPT

              Southern California

              Being kind is more important ..than being important. ~

              California Wildlife Center,volunteer ~
              _www.cawildlife.org_ (http://www.californiawildlifecenter.org/)

              sent from my iPhone

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


               


               

               

               
               

               


               


               

              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57166 From: Angela Cancilla Herschel Date: 6/25/2017
              Subject: Aquatic Affection: How a Scuba Diver Found a Good Friend Under the S

              Aquatic Affection: How a Scuba Diver Found a Good Friend Under the Sea



              image1.jpeg


              Ciao, Angela Cancilla Herschel, CPBC;   
              Member:  IAABC - IAATE - WPT
              Southern California

              Being kind is more important ..than being important. ~

              California Wildlife Center,volunteer ~
              www.cawildlife.org

              sent from my iPhone 
              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57167 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 6/28/2017
              Subject: Re: Aquatic Affection: How a Scuba Diver Found a Good Friend Under t

              Thanks for posting this Angela, what a great story.

               John<o)))<

              On 26 June 2017 at 00:52 "Angela Cancilla Herschel angelasfeathers@gmail.com [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

               

               

               
               

              Aquatic Affection: How a Scuba Diver Found a Good Friend Under the Sea



              image1.jpeg


              Ciao, Angela Cancilla Herschel, CPBC;   
              Member:  IAABC - IAATE - WPT
              Southern California

              Being kind is more important ..than being important. ~

              California Wildlife Center,volunteer ~
              www.cawildlife.org

              sent from my iPhone 

               


               


               

              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57168 From: Jill Beck Date: 7/30/2017
              Subject: Need to rehome 8 African dwarf frogs
              Hello! I am looking to rehome 8 African dwarf frogs ASAP. I would love to find someone locally, as shipping the frogs makes me nervous! I live in Lansdale Pa, 19446, which is about 45 outside of Philly.
              Thank you!
              Jill
              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57169 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 7/31/2017
              Subject: Re: Need to rehome 8 African dwarf frogs

              Hi Jill,

               Unfotunately this forum is not used by many people nowadays due to the popularity of social media so if you don't get any offers of new homes for your frogs I would suggest trying some local small ad sites for your area. In the UK we have regional stuff like PreLoved, Gumtree, Small Ads & Freecycle-if you look for them & anything similar you will probably have more success. Good luck!

               John<o)))<

              On 31 July 2017 at 00:06 "Jill Beck jillruth21@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

               

              Hello! I am looking to rehome 8 African dwarf frogs ASAP. I would love to find someone locally, as shipping the frogs makes me nervous! I live in Lansdale Pa, 19446, which is about 45 outside of Philly.
              Thank you!
              Jill


               


               

              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57170 From: Angela Cancilla Herschel Date: 8/15/2017
              Subject: Goldfish playing basketball
              Goldfish playing basketball


              Ciao, Angela Cancilla Herschel,   CPBC ,
              Member : IAATE  -  IAABC - WPT
              Southern California
               

              Being Kind is more important ...than being important. ~
              California Wildlife Center, volunteer  ~

              www.cawildlife.org

              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57171 From: Angela Cancilla Herschel Date: 8/15/2017
              Subject: Betta fish jumping through hoops
              Betta fish jumping through hoops


              Ciao, Angela Cancilla Herschel,   CPBC ,
              Member : IAATE  -  IAABC - WPT
              Southern California
               

              Being Kind is more important ...than being important. ~
              California Wildlife Center, volunteer  ~

              www.cawildlife.org

              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57172 From: Angela Cancilla Herschel Date: 8/15/2017
              Subject: Fish 10 trained tricks
              Fish ; 10 trained tricks


              Ciao, Angela Cancilla Herschel,   CPBC ,
              Member : IAATE  -  IAABC - WPT
              Southern California
               

              Being Kind is more important ...than being important. ~
              California Wildlife Center, volunteer  ~

              www.cawildlife.org

              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57173 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 8/17/2017
              Subject: Re: Fish 10 trained tricks

              Hi Angela,

               Thanks for those links-I know streamlined Goldfish are very intelligent animals after keeping & working with them for many years, in fact all types of Carp seem to have a natural curiosity for anything new or different & I've personally seen many individual examples over the years. My personal favorite of Comet's tricks is the slalom-that must have taken some training, going through the hoop, limbo & tunnel are probably the easiest tricks to teach. At the moment I'm setting up a Goldfish tank for a friend & only just added an arched section of bogwood. After just a few minutes one of the fish swam through the arch in exactly the same way as Comet does the limbo by going on it's side to slide under a narrow gap. Some time later both fish were doing it as the other one was watching & taking notes! Now when I clean the tank they cannot wait for the bogwood to go back in & when it does they immediately swim under the arch.

              I was very impressed by the Betta fish jumping through the hoop!

               John<o)))<

              On 15 August 2017 at 18:53 "Angela Cancilla Herschel angelasfeathers@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

               

               

              Fish ; 10 trained tricks


              Ciao, Angela Cancilla Herschel,   CPBC ,
              Member : IAATE  -  IAABC - WPT
              Southern California
               

              Being Kind is more important ...than being important. ~
              California Wildlife Center, volunteer  ~

              www.cawildlife.org

               


               


               

              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57174 From: Noura T. Date: 8/21/2017
              Subject: Brackish Water for Mollies

              Hi,

              Hope everyone is doing well!

              I have mollies, a small plico, and Anubias Nanas in a tank. How much salt can I get away with?

               

              Thanks,

              Noura

              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57175 From: sevenspringss Date: 8/21/2017
              Subject: Re: Brackish Water for Mollies
              Hi Noura,
               
              It's so very good to hear from you again.  As for me, I'm doing fairly well; thanks for asking.  Hope you're doing well also and that the turmoil in your country isn't near your vicinity.  I'm guessing you still need to put up with intermittent power outages, though.
               
              Getting to these fish and plants you have, as I'm sure you must know, Mollies do especially well with an amount of salt in their water -- which no doubt is why you asked your question about how much you can add.  Unfortunately, no freshwater catfish can tolerate very much of it, so you have two types of fish requiring very different conditions.  In general. freshwater plants do not tolerate very much salt either, with some being able to take more than others.  Fortunately, the various Anubias are tougher plants and can tolerate more than others, but still not even near what Mollies do best in. 
               
              Mollies in nature are often found in extremely brackish water where the mouth of the rivers they live in empty into the ocean.  They can often be found right in the Gulf of Mexico where these rivers flow into the marine environment, but will still be found short distances up these rivers especially during the change of tides.  They do best in the aquarium with about 8 teaspoons of salt per U.S. Gallon -- but will still do good at lower levels.  The Pleco, on the other hand would do best at not much more than about one Tablespoon (three teaspoons) of salt per 5 U.S. gallons and the Anubias doing as well at around this same salt level.  This equates to 1.8 teaspoon of salt per U.S. Gallon.  While not being very much more, for easier use, you can use two teaspoons of salt per gallon in maintaining the Pleco and Anubias. although it won't be near the amount of salt Mollies would prefer, but it's at least some salt content to help promote the health of these Mollies.  I wouldn't consider adding very much more salt than this, though.
               
              Ray       
               
               
              In a message dated 8/21/2017 9:46:55 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
               

              Hi,

              Hope everyone is doing well!

              I have mollies, a small plico, and Anubias Nanas in a tank. How much salt can I get away with?

              Thanks,

              Noura

               
              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57176 From: Noura T. Date: 8/21/2017
              Subject: Re: Brackish Water for Mollies
              Thank you very much, Ray, for a detailed and comprehensive answer as usual J

              Glad to hear you’re doing well! As for the turmoil, we recently had some in the city, there has been a car bom- bing just three days ago, with a few losses, unfortunately. The power outages are a little better this summer, with 12 hours of outages a day. The fish have adapted to some extent, it seems, just like we are trying to do.



              I will gradually add 2 tsp of salt per US gallon, then. The mollies were kept in freshwater (zero salt) at the pet store, but I imagine they had some salt in the fish farm since they seem to be in excellent health and breeding like rabbits at the shop (well, I think that’s not nearly the best comparison :-D ), I just don’t know how much salt they had before.



              Thanks again.

              Noura



              From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
              Sent: 21 آب, 2017 06:35 م
              To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Brackish Water for Mollies





              Hi Noura,



              It's so very good to hear from you again. As for me, I'm doing fairly well; thanks for asking. Hope you're doing well also and that the turmoil in your country isn't near your vicinity. I'm guessing you still need to put up with intermittent power outages, though.



              Getting to these fish and plants you have, as I'm sure you must know, Mollies do especially well with an amount of salt in their water -- which no doubt is why you asked your question about how much you can add. Unfortunately, no freshwater catfish can tolerate very much of it, so you have two types of fish requiring very different conditions. In general. freshwater plants do not tolerate very much salt either, with some being able to take more than others. Fortunately, the various Anubias are tougher plants and can tolerate more than others, but still not even near what Mollies do best in.



              Mollies in nature are often found in extremely brackish water where the mouth of the rivers they live in empty into the ocean. They can often be found right in the Gulf of Mexico where these rivers flow into the marine environment, but will still be found short distances up these rivers especially during the change of tides. They do best in the aquarium with about 8 teaspoons of salt per U.S. Gallon -- but will still do good at lower levels. The Pleco, on the other hand would do best at not much more than about one Tablespoon (three teaspoons) of salt per 5 U.S. gallons and the Anubias doing as well at around this same salt level. This equates to 1.8 teaspoon of salt per U.S. Gallon. While not being very much more, for easier use, you can use two teaspoons of salt per gallon in maintaining the Pleco and Anubias. although it won't be near the amount of salt Mollies would prefer, but it's at least some salt content to help promote the health of these Mollies. I wouldn't consider adding very much more salt than this, though.



              Ray





              In a message dated 8/21/2017 9:46:55 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:



              Hi,

              Hope everyone is doing well!

              I have mollies, a small plico, and Anubias Nanas in a tank. How much salt can I get away with?

              Thanks,

              Noura







              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57177 From: sevenspringss Date: 8/21/2017
              Subject: Re: Brackish Water for Mollies
               
              Noura,
               
              Sorry to hear about the turmoil being so close to home; stay safe!  It's always best to add any salt gradually, like one teaspoon per U.S. Gallon per day.  BTW, if any of your female Mollies are ever about to give birth, don't confine them in a breeder trap as you might do for Guppies.  It's too stressful for them and they may abort prematurely.   
               
              Ray
               
               
              In a message dated 8/21/2017 3:52:14 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
               

              Thank you very much, Ray, for a detailed and comprehensive answer as usual J

              Glad to hear you’re doing well! As for the turmoil, we recently had some in the city, there has been a car bom- bing just three days ago, with a few losses, unfortunately. The power outages are a little better this summer, with 12 hours of outages a day. The fish have adapted to some extent, it seems, just like we are trying to do.

              I will gradually add 2 tsp of salt per US gallon, then. The mollies were kept in freshwater (zero salt) at the pet store, but I imagine they had some salt in the fish farm since they seem to be in excellent health and breeding like rabbits at the shop (well, I think that’s not nearly the best comparison :-D ), I just don’t know how much salt they had before.

              Thanks again.

              Noura

              From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
              Sent: 21 آب, 2017 06:35 م
              To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Brackish Water for Mollies

              Hi Noura,

              It's so very good to hear from you again. As for me, I'm doing fairly well; thanks for asking. Hope you're doing well also and that the turmoil in your country isn't near your vicinity. I'm guessing you still need to put up with intermittent power outages, though.

              Getting to these fish and plants you have, as I'm sure you must know, Mollies do especially well with an amount of salt in their water -- which no doubt is why you asked your question about how much you can add. Unfortunately, no freshwater catfish can tolerate very much of it, so you have two types of fish requiring very different conditions. In general. freshwater plants do not tolerate very much salt either, with some being able to take more than others. Fortunately, the various Anubias are tougher plants and can tolerate more than others, but still not even near what Mollies do best in.

              Mollies in nature are often found in extremely brackish water where the mouth of the rivers they live in empty into the ocean. They can often be found right in the Gulf of Mexico where these rivers flow into the marine environment, but will still be found short distances up these rivers especially during the change of tides. They do best in the aquarium with about 8 teaspoons of salt per U.S. Gallon -- but will still do good at lower levels. The Pleco, on the other hand would do best at not much more than about one Tablespoon (three teaspoons) of salt per 5 U.S. gallons and the Anubias doing as well at around this same salt level. This equates to 1.8 teaspoon of salt per U.S. Gallon. While not being very much more, for easier use, you can use two teaspoons of salt per gallon in maintaining the Pleco and Anubias. although it won't be near the amount of salt Mollies would prefer, but it's at least some salt content to help promote the health of these Mollies. I wouldn't consider adding very much more salt than this, though.

              Ray

              In a message dated 8/21/2017 9:46:55 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

              Hi,

              Hope everyone is doing well!

              I have mollies, a small plico, and Anubias Nanas in a tank. How much salt can I get away with?

              Thanks,

              Noura

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

               
              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57178 From: Harry Perry Date: 8/21/2017
              Subject: Noura.....Re: [AquaticLife] Brackish Water for Mollies
              Ray always gives great information. It's like doing to a webinar.

              Just another thought. While mollies like salt if your mollies came from a non-salt environment for example they weren't kept in brackish water before you got them then they probably have been acclimated to fresh water and salt won't be necessary. Which makes it easier on your other fish and plants.

              Harry
              --------------------------------------------
              On Mon, 8/21/17, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

              Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Brackish Water for Mollies
              To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Monday, August 21, 2017, 6:10 PM


               



               


                 
                   
                   
                   



               
              Noura,
               
              Sorry to hear about the turmoil being so close to home;
              stay safe! 
              It's always best to add any salt gradually, like one
              teaspoon per U.S. Gallon
              per day.  BTW, if any of your female Mollies are ever about
              to give birth,
              don't confine them in a breeder trap as you might do for
              Guppies.  It's too
              stressful for them and they may abort prematurely.   

               
              Ray
               
               
              In a message dated 8/21/2017 3:52:14 P.M. Eastern
              Daylight Time,
              AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
               
               
                Thank you very much, Ray, for a detailed and
              comprehensive answer as usual
                J

              Glad to hear you’re
              doing well! As for the turmoil, we recently had
                some in the city, there has been a car bom- bing just
              three days ago, with a
                few losses, unfortunately. The power outages are a little
              better this summer,
                with 12 hours of outages a day. The fish have adapted to
              some extent, it
                seems, just like we are trying to do.

              I will gradually add 2 tsp of
                salt per US gallon, then. The mollies were kept in
              freshwater (zero salt) at
                the pet store, but I imagine they had some salt in the
              fish farm since they
                seem to be in excellent health and breeding like rabbits
              at the shop (well, I
                think that’s not nearly the best comparison :-D ), I
              just don’t know how much
                salt they had before.

              Thanks again.

              Noura

              From:
                AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
              Sent:
              21
                آب, 2017 06:35 م
              To:
              AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re:
                [AquaticLife] Brackish Water for Mollies

              Hi Noura,

              It's so very
                good to hear from you again. As for me, I'm doing
              fairly well; thanks for
                asking. Hope you're doing well also and that the
              turmoil in your country isn't
                near your vicinity. I'm guessing you still need to put
              up with intermittent
                power outages, though.

              Getting to these fish and plants you have, as
                I'm sure you must know, Mollies do especially well
              with an amount of salt in
                their water -- which no doubt is why you asked your
              question about how much
                you can add. Unfortunately, no freshwater catfish can
              tolerate very much of
                it, so you have two types of fish requiring very different
              conditions. In
                general. freshwater plants do not tolerate very much salt
              either, with some
                being able to take more than others. Fortunately, the
              various Anubias are
                tougher plants and can tolerate more than others, but
              still not even near what
                Mollies do best in.

              Mollies in nature are often found in extremely
                brackish water where the mouth of the rivers they live in
              empty into the
                ocean. They can often be found right in the Gulf of Mexico
              where these rivers
                flow into the marine environment, but will still be found
              short distances up
                these rivers especially during the change of tides. They
              do best in the
                aquarium with about 8 teaspoons of salt per U.S. Gallon --
              but will still do
                good at lower levels. The Pleco, on the other hand would
              do best at not much
                more than about one Tablespoon (three teaspoons) of salt
              per 5 U.S. gallons
                and the Anubias doing as well at around this same salt
              level. This equates to
                1.8 teaspoon of salt per U.S. Gallon. While not being very
              much more, for
                easier use, you can use two teaspoons of salt per gallon
              in maintaining the
                Pleco and Anubias. although it won't be near the
              amount of salt Mollies would
                prefer, but it's at least some salt content to help
              promote the health of
                these Mollies. I wouldn't consider adding very much
              more salt than this,
                though.

              Ray

              In a message dated 8/21/2017
              9:46:55 A.M. Eastern
                Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

              Hi,

              Hope
                everyone is doing well!

              I
              have mollies, a small plico, and Anubias
                Nanas in a tank. How much salt can I get away
                with?

              Thanks,

              Noura

              [Non-text portions of this message
                have been removed]


               

               

                 
                   

                 
                 
              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57179 From: Noura T. Date: 8/21/2017
              Subject: Re: Brackish Water for Mollies

              Thanks, Ray. I’ll keep that in mind J

               

              Noura

               

              From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
              Sent: 22 آب, 2017 01:10 ص
              To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Brackish Water for Mollies

               

               

               

              Noura,

               

              Sorry to hear about the turmoil being so close to home; stay safe!  It's always best to add any salt gradually, like one teaspoon per U.S. Gallon per day.  BTW, if any of your female Mollies are ever about to give birth, don't confine them in a breeder trap as you might do for Guppies.  It's too stressful for them and they may abort prematurely.   

               

              Ray

               

               

              In a message dated 8/21/2017 3:52:14 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

               

              Thank you very much, Ray, for a detailed and comprehensive answer as usual J

              Glad to hear you’re doing well! As for the turmoil, we recently had some in the city, there has been a car bom- bing just three days ago, with a few losses, unfortunately. The power outages are a little better this summer, with 12 hours of outages a day. The fish have adapted to some extent, it seems, just like we are trying to do.

              I will gradually add 2 tsp of salt per US gallon, then. The mollies were kept in freshwater (zero salt) at the pet store, but I imagine they had some salt in the fish farm since they seem to be in excellent health and breeding like rabbits at the shop (well, I think that’s not nearly the best comparison :-D ), I just don’t know how much salt they had before.

              Thanks again.

              Noura

              From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
              Sent: 21 آب, 2017 06:35 م
              To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Brackish Water for Mollies

              Hi Noura,

              It's so very good to hear from you again. As for me, I'm doing fairly well; thanks for asking. Hope you're doing well also and that the turmoil in your country isn't near your vicinity. I'm guessing you still need to put up with intermittent power outages, though.

              Getting to these fish and plants you have, as I'm sure you must know, Mollies do especially well with an amount of salt in their water -- which no doubt is why you asked your question about how much you can add. Unfortunately, no freshwater catfish can tolerate very much of it, so you have two types of fish requiring very different conditions. In general. freshwater plants do not tolerate very much salt either, with some being able to take more than others. Fortunately, the various Anubias are tougher plants and can tolerate more than others, but still not even near what Mollies do best in.

              Mollies in nature are often found in extremely brackish water where the mouth of the rivers they live in empty into the ocean. They can often be found right in the Gulf of Mexico where these rivers flow into the marine environment, but will still be found short distances up these rivers especially during the change of tides. They do best in the aquarium with about 8 teaspoons of salt per U.S. Gallon -- but will still do good at lower levels. The Pleco, on the other hand would do best at not much more than about one Tablespoon (three teaspoons) of salt per 5 U.S. gallons and the Anubias doing as well at around this same salt level. This equates to 1.8 teaspoon of salt per U.S. Gallon. While not being very much more, for easier use, you can use two teaspoons of salt per gallon in maintaining the Pleco and Anubias. although it won't be near the amount of salt Mollies would prefer, but it's at least some salt content to help promote the health of these Mollies. I wouldn't consider adding very much more salt than this, though.

              Ray

              In a message dated 8/21/2017 9:46:55 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

              Hi,

              Hope everyone is doing well!

              I have mollies, a small plico, and Anubias Nanas in a tank. How much salt can I get away with?

              Thanks,

              Noura

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

               

              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57180 From: Noura T. Date: 8/21/2017
              Subject: Re: Noura.....Re: [AquaticLife] Brackish Water for Mollies

              Hi Harry,

              I can’t know for sure how much salt they had in the fish farm. The salt free transition stage (at the pet shop) only lasted for a few days. The owner has no idea either.

              I think I will add the salt very gradually up to the recommended level the plecos and Anubias can handle safely.

               

              Noura

               

              From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
              Sent: 22 آب, 2017 02:05 ص
              To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Noura.....Re: [AquaticLife] Brackish Water for Mollies

               

               

              Ray always gives great information. It's like doing to a webinar.

              Just another thought. While mollies like salt if your mollies came from a non-salt environment for example they weren't kept in brackish water before you got them then they probably have been acclimated to fresh water and salt won't be necessary. Which makes it easier on your other fish and plants.

              Harry
              --------------------------------------------

              On Mon, 8/21/17, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

              Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Brackish Water for Mollies
              To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Monday, August 21, 2017, 6:10 PM


               



               


                 
                   
                   
                   



               
              Noura,
               
              Sorry to hear about the turmoil being so close to home;
              stay safe! 
              It's always best to add any salt gradually, like one
              teaspoon per U.S. Gallon
              per day.  BTW, if any of your female Mollies are ever about
              to give birth,
              don't confine them in a breeder trap as you might do for
              Guppies.  It's too
              stressful for them and they may abort prematurely.   

               
              Ray
               
               
              In a message dated 8/21/2017 3:52:14 P.M. Eastern
              Daylight Time,
              AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
               
               
                Thank you very much, Ray, for a detailed and
              comprehensive answer as usual
                J

              Glad to hear you’re
              doing well! As for the turmoil, we recently had
                some in the city, there has been a car bom- bing just
              three days ago, with a
                few losses, unfortunately. The power outages are a little
              better this summer,
                with 12 hours of outages a day. The fish have adapted to
              some extent, it
                seems, just like we are trying to do.

              I will gradually add 2 tsp of
                salt per US gallon, then. The mollies were kept in
              freshwater (zero salt) at
                the pet store, but I imagine they had some salt in the
              fish farm since they
                seem to be in excellent health and breeding like rabbits
              at the shop (well, I
                think that’s not nearly the best comparison :-D ), I
              just don’t know how much
                salt they had before.

              Thanks again.

              Noura

              From:
                AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
              Sent:
              21
                آب, 2017 06:35 م
              To:
              AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re:
                [AquaticLife] Brackish Water for Mollies

              Hi Noura,

              It's so very
                good to hear from you again. As for me, I'm doing
              fairly well; thanks for
                asking. Hope you're doing well also and that the
              turmoil in your country isn't
                near your vicinity. I'm guessing you still need to put
              up with intermittent
                power outages, though.

              Getting to these fish and plants you have, as
                I'm sure you must know, Mollies do especially well
              with an amount of salt in
                their water -- which no doubt is why you asked your
              question about how much
                you can add. Unfortunately, no freshwater catfish can
              tolerate very much of
                it, so you have two types of fish requiring very different
              conditions. In
                general. freshwater plants do not tolerate very much salt
              either, with some
                being able to take more than others. Fortunately, the
              various Anubias are
                tougher plants and can tolerate more than others, but
              still not even near what
                Mollies do best in.

              Mollies in nature are often found in extremely
                brackish water where the mouth of the rivers they live in
              empty into the
                ocean. They can often be found right in the Gulf of Mexico
              where these rivers
                flow into the marine environment, but will still be found
              short distances up
                these rivers especially during the change of tides. They
              do best in the
                aquarium with about 8 teaspoons of salt per U.S. Gallon --
              but will still do
                good at lower levels. The Pleco, on the other hand would
              do best at not much
                more than about one Tablespoon (three teaspoons) of salt
              per 5 U.S. gallons
                and the Anubias doing as well at around this same salt
              level. This equates to
                1.8 teaspoon of salt per U.S. Gallon. While not being very
              much more, for
                easier use, you can use two teaspoons of salt per gallon
              in maintaining the
                Pleco and Anubias. although it won't be near the
              amount of salt Mollies would
                prefer, but it's at least some salt content to help
              promote the health of
                these Mollies. I wouldn't consider adding very much
              more salt than this,
                though.

              Ray

              In a message dated 8/21/2017
              9:46:55 A.M. Eastern
                Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

              Hi,

              Hope
                everyone is doing well!

              I
              have mollies, a small plico, and Anubias
                Nanas in a tank. How much salt can I get away
                with?

              Thanks,

              Noura

              [Non-text portions of this message
                have been removed]


               

               

                 
                   

                 
                 

              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57181 From: ptimlin Date: 8/22/2017
              Subject: Re: Brackish Water for Mollies
              Just to add my thoughts to the Molly vs. Salt discussion. One thing to consider is that Mollies often do better with mineral rich (hard) water rather than salt only in softer water. Adding just salt to soft water makes it salty but without any mineral hardness like you get with ocean water or places with a lot of limestone and the like where Mollies often come from. Harder water is often tolerated better by plants than salty water as well. Depending on the Pleco species, this might be true for it as well.

              As Ray pointed out, you have a mix of stuff that do not naturally come from the same types of water so you have to compromise. Who do you cater to? Is your water normally hard or soft to begin with? If it is already hard you may not need to add much (or any salt) for the mollies. If your water is soft, rather than only adding salt, you might consider also trying to harden the water a bit as well, maybe with the addition of sea shells, limestone, or other materials that will naturally harden the water gradually and then adding some salt, but not depending on only salt to do that job. As I said, this approach may result in an environment tolerated better by the plants and Pleco.

              Whatever you choose, don't forget plenty of regular water changes will probably do the best job of keeping your mollies (and other fish) happy as mollies don't do as well in tanks that don't get water changes very often regardless of the make up of the water used.

              Good luck!
              Patrick
              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57182 From: sevenspringss Date: 8/22/2017
              Subject: Re: Brackish Water for Mollies
              I appreciate your input and it's well taken.  My recommendations are meant as a compromise in maintaining fishes of two different environmental requirements.  With two teaspoons of salt per 5 gallon of water, this isn't much more than a token amount which shouldn't adversely affect the Pleco (or Anubias), and while a portion of ocean water may even be better than added plain salt, I didn't recommend it for two reasons.  For starters, I tend to doubt the marine salt mix is available in war-torn Syria and secondly, ocean water (as sea salt mix) is made up primarily of approximately 84% Sodium Chloride (common salt) and around 14% Magnesium Sulfate (Epsom salt) with the small remainder being trace elements. 
               
              Still, I could have recommended making an acceptable "marine mix" just by using 8.5 parts of table salt to 1.5 parts of Epsom salt -- or, to make it easier, 17 parts table salt to 3 parts Epsom salt -- but, Magnesium hardens the water (just as Calcium does) and while the Mollies may enjoy it, most all Plecos come from the Amazon and Orinoco River drainages and their various tributaries, all of which consist of very soft water.  No sense in making the Pleco even more unhappy by increasing its water hardness.  Anubias would enjoy the harder water but now we're catering to three different organisms' requirements.  Not that there very much difference, but perhaps a salt addition should be restricted to the original 1 Tablespoon (3 teaspoons) per 5 U.S. Gallons, as no one who's used that as a token additive has ever had a problem with their fishes (not that it was especially beneficial for most of them).
               
              If Plecos did that well in much harder water, I'd have even recommended adding buffers (like SeaChem's) to the water to harden it, but 1) I again doubt it's available in Syria, and 2) it's not in the Pleco's best interest, even though we can be fairly sure this group of fish as a whole has been acclimated to some degree of harder and more alkaline water in the hatcheries they're now raised in.  We can be fairly sure too, that Mollies aren't being raised in close to marine environment conditions, but environments closer to what a species has evolved in are always a benefit for them; the reason why they'll breed much easier when provided their natural conditions.  Water changes have always been in the picture to maintain any aquatic creature, but thanks for the reminder.
               
              Ray
               
               
              In a message dated 8/22/2017 11:55:40 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
               

              Just to add my thoughts to the Molly vs. Salt discussion. One thing to consider is that Mollies often do better with mineral rich (hard) water rather than salt only in softer water. Adding just salt to soft water makes it salty but without any mineral hardness like you get with ocean water or places with a lot of limestone and the like where Mollies often come from. Harder water is often tolerated better by plants than salty water as well. Depending on the Pleco species, this might be true for it as well.


              As Ray pointed out, you have a mix of stuff that do not naturally come from the same types of water so you have to compromise. Who do you cater to? Is your water normally hard or soft to begin with? If it is already hard you may not need to add much (or any salt) for the mollies. If your water is soft, rather than only adding salt, you might consider also trying to harden the water a bit as well, maybe with the addition of sea shells, limestone, or other materials that will naturally harden the water gradually and then adding some salt, but not depending on only salt to do that job. As I said, this approach may result in an environment tolerated better by the plants and Pleco.

              Whatever you choose, don't forget plenty of regular water changes will probably do the best job of keeping your mollies (and other fish) happy as mollies don't do as well in tanks that don't get water changes very often regardless of the make up of the water used.

              Good luck!
              Patrick

               
              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57183 From: bhosking@shaw.ca Date: 8/22/2017
              Subject: Re: Noura.....Re: [AquaticLife] Brackish Water for Mollies
              I must caution on the use of salt, this is not in the best interests of your fish.

              First, the pleco will not manage with any salt on a permanent basis.  "Freshwater" fish means exactly that, fresh water, not brackish at any level of salt.  Treating specific disease with salt is one thing, but permanent use of any amount is very different.  This affects the internal physiology of freshwater fish, weakening them, and there is absolutely no benefit.  I have an article online that explains the science, but I don't know if I can link to it here.  At the level being suggested, I can guarantee the pleco will have problems.

              Second, mollies are freshwater fish.  It is true what Ray said about mollies occurring in brackish water in the wild, but there are two aspects to this.  Wild fish prefer freshwater according to observations.  But more importantly, the fish available in the hobby will be commercially raised and in fresh water.  Forcing them into brackish has no benefit, quite the opposite.

              Byron.
              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57184 From: Noura T. Date: 8/22/2017
              Subject: Re: Brackish Water for Mollies

              Hi Patrick and Ray

              My water is naturally very hard. When I still had my Tetra test kit, the hardness of my tap water and my tanks’ water always ranged between 8 and 8.2.

              My Anubias Nana is literally thriving in the naturally lit tank by the window.

              Does this information make any difference regarding the recommended salt concentration, or regarding adding any salt at all?

               

              I appreciate all of your inputs.

              Noura

               

               

              From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
              Sent: 22 آب, 2017 07:49 م
              To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Brackish Water for Mollies

               

               

              I appreciate your input and it's well taken.  My recommendations are meant as a compromise in maintaining fishes of two different environmental requirements.  With two teaspoons of salt per 5 gallon of water, this isn't much more than a token amount which shouldn't adversely affect the Pleco (or Anubias), and while a portion of ocean water may even be better than added plain salt, I didn't recommend it for two reasons.  For starters, I tend to doubt the marine salt mix is available in war-torn Syria and secondly, ocean water (as sea salt mix) is made up primarily of approximately 84% Sodium Chloride (common salt) and around 14% Magnesium Sulfate (Epsom salt) with the small remainder being trace elements. 

               

              Still, I could have recommended making an acceptable "marine mix" just by using 8.5 parts of table salt to 1.5 parts of Epsom salt -- or, to make it easier, 17 parts table salt to 3 parts Epsom salt -- but, Magnesium hardens the water (just as Calcium does) and while the Mollies may enjoy it, most all Plecos come from the Amazon and Orinoco River drainages and their various tributaries, all of which consist of very soft water.  No sense in making the Pleco even more unhappy by increasing its water hardness.  Anubias would enjoy the harder water but now we're catering to three different organisms' requirements.  Not that there very much difference, but perhaps a salt addition should be restricted to the original 1 Tablespoon (3 teaspoons) per 5 U.S. Gallons, as no one who's used that as a token additive has ever had a problem with their fishes (not that it was especially beneficial for most of them).

               

              If Plecos did that well in much harder water, I'd have even recommended adding buffers (like SeaChem's) to the water to harden it, but 1) I again doubt it's available in Syria, and 2) it's not in the Pleco's best interest, even though we can be fairly sure this group of fish as a whole has been acclimated to some degree of harder and more alkaline water in the hatcheries they're now raised in.  We can be fairly sure too, that Mollies aren't being raised in close to marine environment conditions, but environments closer to what a species has evolved in are always a benefit for them; the reason why they'll breed much easier when provided their natural conditions.  Water changes have always been in the picture to maintain any aquatic creature, but thanks for the reminder.

               

              Ray

               

               

              In a message dated 8/22/2017 11:55:40 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

               

              Just to add my thoughts to the Molly vs. Salt discussion. One thing to consider is that Mollies often do better with mineral rich (hard) water rather than salt only in softer water. Adding just salt to soft water makes it salty but without any mineral hardness like you get with ocean water or places with a lot of limestone and the like where Mollies often come from. Harder water is often tolerated better by plants than salty water as well. Depending on the Pleco species, this might be true for it as well.

               

              As Ray pointed out, you have a mix of stuff that do not naturally come from the same types of water so you have to compromise. Who do you cater to? Is your water normally hard or soft to begin with? If it is already hard you may not need to add much (or any salt) for the mollies. If your water is soft, rather than only adding salt, you might consider also trying to harden the water a bit as well, maybe with the addition of sea shells, limestone, or other materials that will naturally harden the water gradually and then adding some salt, but not depending on only salt to do that job. As I said, this approach may result in an environment tolerated better by the plants and Pleco.

               

              Whatever you choose, don't forget plenty of regular water changes will probably do the best job of keeping your mollies (and other fish) happy as mollies don't do as well in tanks that don't get water changes very often regardless of the make up of the water used.

               

              Good luck!

              Patrick

               

              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57185 From: amphibian_ca Date: 8/22/2017
              Subject: Re: Brackish Water for Mollies
              As Patrick mentioned, the issue with mollies (and all livebearers and fish requiring "hard" water) is the mineral content of the water, measured as GH (general hardness).  Salt is not one of these minerals, and adding salt does not increase GH.  Calcium and magnesium are the primary minerals, and hard water generally is high in these.  And that is critical for mollies.

              In soft water, or water that is acidic in pH (the two usually but not always go together), mollies will not fare well, slowly weakening and dying.  Common signs are shimmies, fungus, increased respiration...these worsen until the fish just dies.  [Note, I'm talking about mollies.]  The minerals in the water are essential for the fish's metabolism and physiology to function.  And the pH must be above 7; no problem with 8 or 8.2 for mollies.  [Your pleco may not be happy with either, but that partly depends upon the species and where it occurs naturally.]

              My article on salt explains the detriment to freshwater fish.  You can find it easily by doing a Google or similar search for "Salt in the Freshwater Aquarium Byron Hosking."  It is on Wet Web Media.  Articles by Neale Monks also cautioning on salt are there too.

              Byron.
              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57186 From: sevenspringss Date: 8/22/2017
              Subject: Re: Brackish Water for Mollies
              Hi Noura,
               
              I had wondered about your water parameters, especially the GH and KH.  As you note here a range between 8 and 8.2 for your pH, almost always it follows that your water is harder than normal.  It's little wonder that your Anubias nana would thrive, as it would be expected to in these conditions.  This information you've provided is always helpful but makes little difference here concerning the salt content, as they are not one and the same.  Still, it's good to know you have hard, alkaline water.  The addition of a token amount of salt is meant to increase the TDS (Total Dissolved Solids) which besides the hardness, is something most Livebearers, and especially Mollies do best in.  While you can't increase your TDS very much because of the Pleco not liking very high TDS, this minimal amount will at least provide some TDS while not impacting the Pleco's well being. 
               
              As I stated earlier, and back when this group was extremely busy, many members here automatically used this very same token level of salt (1 TBS per 5 Gallons) in their aquariums, even when we told them it was not necessary (and may best be left out) -- depending on what variety of fishes they kept.  This very low level of salt won't hurt anything, but when hobbyists are keeping all Amazonian fishes it's just not needed at all, preferably being absent.  For general aquarium maintenance, this low level of salt does nothing for the inhabitants and is best left out, except when it comes to fish like these certain Livebearer types you have.  Similarly, when these same members had been keeping soft water aquarium plants, they'll do best if they did without this comparatively miniscule amount of salt, as it may negatively impact these plants; they don't need it and they don't want it.  One good use it does have for all fishes is when it's used with the heat treatment against Ich. 
               
              Ray
                 
               
              In a message dated 8/22/2017 4:35:32 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
               

              Hi Patrick and Ray

              My water is naturally very hard. When I still had my Tetra test kit, the hardness of my tap water and my tanks’ water always ranged between 8 and 8.2.

              My Anubias Nana is literally thriving in the naturally lit tank by the window.

              Does this information make any difference regarding the recommended salt concentration, or regarding adding any salt at all?

              I appreciate all of your inputs.

              Noura

              From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
              Sent: 22 آب, 2017 07:49 م
              To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Brackish Water for Mollies

               

              I appreciate your input and it's well taken.  My recommendations are meant as a compromise in maintaining fishes of two different environmental requirements.  With two teaspoons of salt per 5 gallon of water, this isn't much more than a token amount which shouldn't adversely affect the Pleco (or Anubias), and while a portion of ocean water may even be better than added plain salt, I didn't recommend it for two reasons.  For starters, I tend to doubt the marine salt mix is available in war-torn Syria and secondly, ocean water (as sea salt mix) is made up primarily of approximately 84% Sodium Chloride (common salt) and around 14% Magnesium Sulfate (Epsom salt) with the small remainder being trace elements. 

              Still, I could have recommended making an acceptable "marine mix" just by using 8.5 parts of table salt to 1.5 parts of Epsom salt -- or, to make it easier, 17 parts table salt to 3 parts Epsom salt -- but, Magnesium hardens the water (just as Calcium does) and while the Mollies may enjoy it, most all Plecos come from the Amazon and Orinoco River drainages and their various tributaries, all of which consist of very soft water.  No sense in making the Pleco even more unhappy by increasing its water hardness.  Anubias would enjoy the harder water but now we're catering to three different organisms' requirements.  Not that there very much difference, but perhaps a salt addition should be restricted to the original 1 Tablespoon (3 teaspoons) per 5 U.S. Gallons, as no one who's used that as a token additive has ever had a problem with their fishes (not that it was especially beneficial for most of them).

              If Plecos did that well in much harder water, I'd have even recommended adding buffers (like SeaChem's) to the water to harden it, but 1) I again doubt it's available in Syria, and 2) it's not in the Pleco's best interest, even though we can be fairly sure this group of fish as a whole has been acclimated to some degree of harder and more alkaline water in the hatcheries they're now raised in.  We can be fairly sure too, that Mollies aren't being raised in close to marine environment conditions, but environments closer to what a species has evolved in are always a benefit for them; the reason why they'll breed much easier when provided their natural conditions.  Water changes have always been in the picture to maintain any aquatic creature, but thanks for the reminder.

              Ray

              In a message dated 8/22/2017 11:55:40 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

               

              Just to add my thoughts to the Molly vs. Salt discussion. One thing to consider is that Mollies often do better with mineral rich (hard) water rather than salt only in softer water. Adding just salt to soft water makes it salty but without any mineral hardness like you get with ocean water or places with a lot of limestone and the like where Mollies often come from. Harder water is often tolerated better by plants than salty water as well. Depending on the Pleco species, this might be true for it as well.

              As Ray pointed out, you have a mix of stuff that do not naturally come from the same types of water so you have to compromise. Who do you cater to? Is your water normally hard or soft to begin with? If it is already hard you may not need to add much (or any salt) for the mollies. If your water is soft, rather than only adding salt, you might consider also trying to harden the water a bit as well, maybe with the addition of sea shells, limestone, or other materials that will naturally harden the water gradually and then adding some salt, but not depending on only salt to do that job. As I said, this approach may result in an environment tolerated better by the plants and Pleco.

              Whatever you choose, don't forget plenty of regular water changes will probably do the best job of keeping your mollies (and other fish) happy as mollies don't do as well in tanks that don't get water changes very often regardless of the make up of the water used.

              Good luck!

              Patrick

               
              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57187 From: Harry Perry Date: 8/22/2017
              Subject: This is increditable !!!!!!!! Salt for mollies
              Some one asks about putting salt in a tank with fresh water mollies

              Then we go on for days about whose right and whose wrong, he said, she said.

              It doesn't matter. They are fresh water mollies now.

              They have adjusted. Putting salt in the tank means they have to adjust again. Also you are going to stress out the pleco and the live plants which don't don't do well with salt.

              How will you know how much salt is in the water if you are doing regular water changes? Are you adding salt? Should you add salt with each water change?.

              Next someone will tell me it has to be aquarium salt, another myth. It belongs with the myth that it takes 6 to 8 weeks to cycle a tank. Actually all that is needed is Dr. Tims one and only and add fish. IT'S REALLY THAT SIMPLE.

              Wouldn't it make sense to just forget about the salt?. The mollies don't need it now.

              The fish have also adjusted to the water parameters. In the middle of a war we are going to discuss adding chemicals to a tank. Chemicals that would be impossible to find in Syria probably even without the war. Besides, chemicals don't belong in your tanks anyhow.

              I have 6 tanks, various fish, heavily planted. No filter, no air stone and NO CHEMICALS.

              All the fish are healthy and breeding.

              Every time humans decide they know better than Mother Nature. Something gets screwed up. It's not nice to mess with Mother Nature

              Harry

              --------------------------------------------
              On Tue, 8/22/17, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

              Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Brackish Water for Mollies
              To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Tuesday, August 22, 2017, 7:21 PM


               













              Hi Noura,
               
              I had wondered about your water parameters, especially
              the GH and KH. 
              As you note here a range between 8 and 8.2 for your pH,
              almost always it follows
              that your water is harder than normal.  It's little
              wonder that your
              Anubias nana would thrive, as it would be expected to in
              these conditions. 
              This information you've provided is always helpful but
              makes little
              difference here concerning the salt content, as they are
              not one and the
              same.  Still, it's good to know you have hard, alkaline

              water.  The addition of a token amount of salt is meant to
              increase
              the TDS (Total Dissolved Solids) which besides the hardness,
              is something most
              Livebearers, and especially Mollies do best in.  While you
              can't increase
              your TDS very much because of the Pleco not liking very
              high TDS,
              this minimal amount will at least provide some TDS while
              not impacting the
              Pleco's well being. 
               
              As I stated earlier, and back when this group was
              extremely busy, many
              members here automatically used this very same token level
              of salt (1 TBS
              per 5 Gallons) in their aquariums, even when we told them
              it was not
              necessary (and may best be left out) -- depending on what
              variety of fishes they
              kept.  This very low level of salt won't hurt anything,
              but when hobbyists
              are keeping all Amazonian fishes it's just not needed at
              all, preferably being
              absent.  For general aquarium maintenance, this low level
              of salt does
              nothing for the inhabitants and is best left out, except
              when it comes to fish
              like these certain Livebearer types you have.  Similarly,
              when these same
              members had been keeping soft water aquarium plants,
              they'll do best if
              they did without this comparatively miniscule amount of
              salt, as it may
              negatively impact these plants; they don't need it and
              they don't want it. 
              One good use it does have for all fishes is when it's
              used with the heat
              treatment against Ich. 
               
              Ray
                 
               
              In a message dated 8/22/2017 4:35:32 P.M. Eastern
              Daylight Time,
              AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
               



              Hi Patrick
              and Ray
              My water is
              naturally very hard. When I still had my Tetra test kit,
              the hardness of my
              tap water and my tanks’ water always ranged between 8
              and 8.2.

              My Anubias
              Nana is literally thriving in the naturally lit tank by
              the
              window.
              Does this
              information make any difference regarding the recommended
              salt concentration,
              or regarding adding any salt at all?

              I appreciate
              all of your inputs.
              Noura




              From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
              Sent: 22 آب, 2017 07:49 م
              To:
              AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Brackish
              Water for Mollies

               





              I appreciate
              your input and it's well taken.  My recommendations
              are meant as a
              compromise in maintaining fishes of two different
              environmental
              requirements.  With two teaspoons of salt per 5 gallon of
              water, this
              isn't much more than a token amount which
              shouldn't adversely affect the Pleco
              (or Anubias), and while a portion of ocean water may even
              be better than
              added plain salt, I didn't recommend it for two
              reasons.  For starters, I
              tend to doubt the marine salt mix is available in war-torn
              Syria and
              secondly, ocean water (as sea salt mix) is made up
              primarily of approximately
              84% Sodium Chloride (common salt) and around 14% Magnesium
              Sulfate (Epsom
              salt) with the small remainder being trace elements. 




              Still, I could
              have recommended making an acceptable "marine
              mix" just by using 8.5 parts of
              table salt to 1.5 parts of Epsom salt -- or, to make it
              easier, 17 parts table
              salt to 3 parts Epsom salt -- but, Magnesium hardens the
              water (just as
              Calcium does) and while the Mollies may enjoy it, most
              all Plecos come
              from the Amazon and Orinoco River drainages and their
              various tributaries, all of which consist of very soft
              water.  No
              sense in making the Pleco even more unhappy by increasing
              its water
              hardness.  Anubias would enjoy the harder water but now
              we're catering to
              three different organisms' requirements.  Not that
              there very much
              difference, but perhaps a salt addition should be
              restricted to the original 1
              Tablespoon (3 teaspoons) per 5 U.S. Gallons, as no one
              who's used that as a
              token additive has ever had a problem with their fishes
              (not that it was
              especially beneficial for most of them).



              If Plecos did
              that well in much harder water, I'd have even
              recommended adding buffers (like
              SeaChem's) to the water to harden it, but 1) I again
              doubt it's available
              in Syria, and 2) it's not in the Pleco's best
              interest, even though we can be
              fairly sure this group of fish as a whole has been
              acclimated to some degree
              of harder and more alkaline water in the hatcheries
              they're now raised
              in.  We can be fairly sure too, that Mollies aren't
              being raised in close
              to marine environment conditions, but environments closer
              to what a species
              has evolved in are always a benefit for them; the reason
              why they'll breed
              much easier when provided their natural
              conditions.  Water changes
              have always been in the picture to maintain any aquatic
              creature, but thanks
              for the reminder.



              Ray





              In a message
              dated 8/22/2017 11:55:40 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com

              writes:

               


              Just to add
              my thoughts to
              the Molly vs. Salt discussion. One thing to consider is
              that Mollies often
              do better with mineral rich (hard) water rather than
              salt only in softer
              water. Adding just salt to soft water makes it salty but
              without any mineral
              hardness like you get with ocean water or places with a
              lot of limestone and
              the like where Mollies often come from. Harder water is
              often tolerated
              better by plants than salty water as well. Depending on
              the Pleco species,
              this might be true for it as well.



              As Ray
              pointed out, you have a mix of stuff that do not
              naturally come from the
              same types of water so you have to compromise. Who do
              you cater to? Is your
              water normally hard or soft to begin with? If it is
              already hard you may not
              need to add much (or any salt) for the mollies. If your
              water is soft,
              rather than only adding salt, you might consider also
              trying to harden the
              water a bit as well, maybe with the addition of sea
              shells, limestone, or
              other materials that will naturally harden the water
              gradually and then
              adding some salt, but not depending on only salt to do
              that job. As I said,
              this approach may result in an environment tolerated
              better by the plants
              and Pleco.



              Whatever you
              choose, don't forget plenty of regular water changes
              will probably do the
              best job of keeping your mollies (and other fish) happy
              as mollies don't do
              as well in tanks that don't get water changes very
              often regardless of the
              make up of the water used.



              Good
              luck!

              Patrick








               
              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57188 From: ptimlin Date: 8/23/2017
              Subject: Re: Brackish Water for Mollies

              I have a great article that I scanned in decades ago by Dr. Ted Coletti who wrote a regular column about live bearers in Freshwater and Marine Aquarium magazine (aka FAMA) back in the late 80s and early 90s. This one is titled "The Great Molly-Salt Debate" dated October 1991. I would upload it to the group's files section, but either uploads are now turned off or I don't have access or I simply and missing where the upload link is.

               
              Regards,
              Patrick
              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57189 From: sevenspringss Date: 8/23/2017
              Subject: Re: Brackish Water for Mollies
              Patrick,
               
              It's unfortunate that you're unable to upload this article by "Dr. Ted," as he's know to his friends.  Sounds like this article should be interesting, even if possibly controversial, especially as Ted is quite knowledgeable in Livebearers.  As I've subscribed to Freshwater and Marine Aquarium magazine during those years, I should have that October 1991 issue somewhere as I never discard these sources of information.  If I can't find it, I'll just ask Ted as he's one of my best friends, both of us belonging to the North Jersey Aquarium Society, and both of us being on the club's BOT.  I just saw Ted last Saturday at our NJAS annual picnic, and will be seeing him again in a couple of weeks at the Board meeting; will jog his memory then on this article he wrote.  Nothing like getting the info right from the source.  As I do here, I also enjoy moderating Ted's "Aquarium Hobby Historical Society" Yahoo group, and while this topic from 1991 is not that "historical," still, it shouldn't be off-topic; I could bring it up there if I can't find my FAMA issue. 
               
              Ray
               
               
              In a message dated 8/23/2017 9:19:15 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
               

              I have a great article that I scanned in decades ago by Dr. Ted Coletti who wrote a regular column about live bearers in Freshwater and Marine Aquarium magazine (aka FAMA) back in the late 80s and early 90s. This one is titled "The Great Molly-Salt Debate" dated October 1991. I would upload it to the group's files section, but either uploads are now turned off or I don't have access or I simply and missing where the upload link is.

               
              Regards,
              Patrick

               
              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57190 From: amphibian_ca Date: 8/23/2017
              Subject: Re: Brackish Water for Mollies
              I'm not sure why I am being ignored, but there are articles on the Wet Web site I mentioned, including one by me.  I read the Ted article and he is in agreement.
              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57191 From: ptimlin Date: 8/23/2017
              Subject: Re: Brackish Water for Mollies
              I don't think anyone is ignoring you. When I saw your reply I was reading it at work so didn't have time to search for your article. I will do so now. However a direct LINK to your article would of been helpful.

              Patrick
              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57192 From: ptimlin Date: 8/23/2017
              Subject: Re: Brackish Water for Mollies
              > "It's unfortunate that you're unable to upload this article by "Dr. Ted," as he's know to his friends."
              and 
              > "As I do here, I also enjoy moderating Ted's "Aquarium Hobby Historical Society" Yahoo group, and"...

              Hi Ray, 

              Perhaps you could use your moderating skills and perhaps CHECK my account to see if I am restricted from uploading to the group's files section? I am fairly sure either *I* am restricted from doing so or else EVERYONE must be. Since I see other members have uploaded in the past then either its me or turned off for the group. Check the "control panel" and see if it is group wide. Or pull up my membership and see if the "Disallow file upload :" is checked.

              Patrick
               
              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57193 From: sevenspringss Date: 8/23/2017
              Subject: Re: Brackish Water for Mollies
              Hi Patrick,
               
              I had thought about checking into your account, even before you inquired about it here.  Please understand, I so wish I could, but as I had explained several times in the past (which you probably wouldn't remember) ever since Yahoo introduced their Neo format a few years ago, I found I was restricted in certain things I was once able to do.  Can't even access the archives anymore, and I know there's a wealth of info there.  I can no longer access members' accounts to help them do anything with them.  Just recently, I was needing to do this for another member and I asked one of our other moderators, John -- and he told me something similar although it wasn't do to Neo -- I believe he mentioned he wasn't sure of the process.  You may consider asking him though, although I'm thinking our moderator Harry might be able to do this for you; or, at least you could ask him in hopes he can.  If Harry can't help, just send a message to this groups owner, Aaron Martin.  You can reach all of us moderators and the group owner at  < aquaticlife-owner@yahoogroups.com
              >.  Just put his name in the subject line with a few other words like -- "Please contact me, Aaron Martin, " or "Attention, Aaron Martin," or "Aaron Martin, please see this message," etc.   
               
              Ray
               
               
               
              In a message dated 8/23/2017 10:44:23 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
               

              > "It's unfortunate that you're unable to upload this article by "Dr. Ted," as he's know to his friends."

              and 
              > "As I do here, I also enjoy moderating Ted's "Aquarium Hobby Historical Society" Yahoo group, and"...

              Hi Ray, 

              Perhaps you could use your moderating skills and perhaps CHECK my account to see if I am restricted from uploading to the group's files section? I am fairly sure either *I* am restricted from doing so or else EVERYONE must be. Since I see other members have uploaded in the past then either its me or turned off for the group. Check the "control panel" and see if it is group wide. Or pull up my membership and see if the "Disallow file upload :" is checked.

              Patrick
               

               
              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57194 From: Cheryl Kautz Date: 8/23/2017
              Subject: Re: Brackish Water for Mollies
              How many GALLON in your aquarium tank? Trying to figure it out how much to be given the sea salt? 


              On Mon, 21 Aug 2017 at 7:46 AM, 'Noura T.' n-ocean@... [AquaticLife]
              <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
               

              Hi,

              Hope everyone is doing well!

              I have mollies, a small plico, and Anubias Nanas in a tank. How much salt can I get away with?

               

              Thanks,

              Noura

              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57195 From: Harry Perry Date: 8/23/2017
              Subject: Patrick.....Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Brackish Water for Mollies
              You are not blocked from adding files to the file section. What message do you get when you try?.If any?.
              Also are you using a computer or a phone to upload files to the file section.

              There is an across the group setting restricting attachments to the group.

              You could send the file to me and I will upload it to the file section

              Or simply copy and paste it into an e-mail and I will try to get it into the file section.

              Harry
              --------------------------------------------
              On Wed, 8/23/17, ptimlin@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

              Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Brackish Water for Mollies
              To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Wednesday, August 23, 2017, 10:44 PM


               









              > "It's
              unfortunate that you're unable to upload this article by
              "Dr. Ted," as he's know to his
              friends."and > "As
              I do here, I also enjoy moderating Ted's "Aquarium
              Hobby Historical Society" Yahoo group,
              and"...
              Hi
              Ray, 
              Perhaps
              you could use your moderating skills and perhaps CHECK my
              account to see if I am restricted from uploading to the
              group's files section? I am fairly sure either *I* am
              restricted from doing so or else EVERYONE must be. Since I
              see other members have uploaded in the past then either its
              me or turned off for the group. Check the
              "control panel" and see if it is group wide.
              Or pull up my membership and see if the
              "Disallow file upload :" is
              checked.
              Patrick 
















              Posted by: ptimlin@...
              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57196 From: kbgwp Date: 8/24/2017
              Subject: Re: Brackish Water for Mollies
              Here's a link to that article mentioned.

              http://www.afae.it/pages/tematica/articolipoecilidi/The_great_molly%20salt_debate.htm

              Brian


              ---In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, <ptimlin@...> wrote :

              I don't think anyone is ignoring you. When I saw your reply I was reading it at work so didn't have time to search for your article. I will do so now. However a direct LINK to your article would of been helpful.

              Patrick
              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57197 From: amphibian_ca Date: 8/24/2017
              Subject: Re: Brackish Water for Mollies
              Some forums do not allow links to others, which is why I didn't.  Here's the link:


              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57198 From: ptimlin Date: 8/24/2017
              Subject: Re: Patrick.....Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Brackish Water for Mollies
              Hi Harry,

              When I go to the groups.yahoo.com area, in most other groups if I go in and click on the files section, at the top of the list to the right there typically is a white "actions" pull down box followed on the right by purple icons for "Add Folder", "Create Text File", and then an upload box (UP arrow with the text "UPLOAD"). I made sure I picked group in which I have no moderation or ownership so just a plain old member in those groups.

              However when I go into this group and click on the files section I ONLY see the white "actions" pull down. No ability to create folder, text file, or upload anything to the right of that. Strange. So no messages per se, just no conduit at all to even try an upload.

              Not a big deal especially since someone already linked to the article elsewhere. If I need to attach a file in another 8 years I'll be in touch.  ;)

              Patrick
              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57199 From: Noura T. Date: 8/24/2017
              Subject: Re: Brackish Water for Mollies
              It’s 21 liters.

              About five gallons, I think?

              There is a 2” common pleco, 3 mollies, a few molly fry, and a few Anubia plants.



              Noura



              From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
              Sent: 24 آب, 2017 07:50 ص
              To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Brackish Water for Mollies





              How many GALLON in your aquarium tank? Trying to figure it out how much to be given the sea salt?

              Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android <https://overview.mail.yahoo.com/mobile/?.src=Android>



              On Mon, 21 Aug 2017 at 7:46 AM, 'Noura T.' n-ocean@... [AquaticLife]

              <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:



              Hi,

              Hope everyone is doing well!

              I have mollies, a small plico, and Anubias Nanas in a tank. How much salt can I get away with?



              Thanks,

              Noura





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57200 From: sevenspringss Date: 8/24/2017
              Subject: Re: Brackish Water for Mollies
              Hi Noura,
               
              Just wanted to follow up on the reply I gave you specifically to this (your) email.  In checking out the numbers you give here, they'd appear to reflect your pH reading, especially as hardness readings as used in aquarium maintenance seldom are carried into "tenths" of a degree.  Just as I assumed recently, I'm taking these numbers to mean your pH, unless the General Hardness is 8 o GH.  Can you please verify this?  A hardness of this value (if "8" is your hardness degree reading) is not considered "very hard" but in the low range of "hard" when using Innes' scale of exactly 1 o GH = 17 ppm; an 8 o GH would then be 136 ppm, whereas very hard water starts at 200 ppm.  Not meaning to belabor this as I'm still assuming "8" (and "8.2") is your ph reading -- a fairly high pH, unless hearing otherwise from you.
               
              Ray 
               
               
               
              In a message dated 8/22/2017 4:35:32 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
               

              Hi Patrick and Ray

              My water is naturally very hard. When I still had my Tetra test kit, the hardness of my tap water and my tanks’ water always ranged between 8 and 8.2.

              My Anubias Nana is literally thriving in the naturally lit tank by the window.

              Does this information make any difference regarding the recommended salt concentration, or regarding adding any salt at all?

              I appreciate all of your inputs.

              Noura

              From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
              Sent: 22 آب, 2017 07:49 م
              To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Brackish Water for Mollies

               

              I appreciate your input and it's well taken.  My recommendations are meant as a compromise in maintaining fishes of two different environmental requirements.  With two teaspoons of salt per 5 gallon of water, this isn't much more than a token amount which shouldn't adversely affect the Pleco (or Anubias), and while a portion of ocean water may even be better than added plain salt, I didn't recommend it for two reasons.  For starters, I tend to doubt the marine salt mix is available in war-torn Syria and secondly, ocean water (as sea salt mix) is made up primarily of approximately 84% Sodium Chloride (common salt) and around 14% Magnesium Sulfate (Epsom salt) with the small remainder being trace elements. 

              Still, I could have recommended making an acceptable "marine mix" just by using 8.5 parts of table salt to 1.5 parts of Epsom salt -- or, to make it easier, 17 parts table salt to 3 parts Epsom salt -- but, Magnesium hardens the water (just as Calcium does) and while the Mollies may enjoy it, most all Plecos come from the Amazon and Orinoco River drainages and their various tributaries, all of which consist of very soft water.  No sense in making the Pleco even more unhappy by increasing its water hardness.  Anubias would enjoy the harder water but now we're catering to three different organisms' requirements.  Not that there very much difference, but perhaps a salt addition should be restricted to the original 1 Tablespoon (3 teaspoons) per 5 U.S. Gallons, as no one who's used that as a token additive has ever had a problem with their fishes (not that it was especially beneficial for most of them).

              If Plecos did that well in much harder water, I'd have even recommended adding buffers (like SeaChem's) to the water to harden it, but 1) I again doubt it's available in Syria, and 2) it's not in the Pleco's best interest, even though we can be fairly sure this group of fish as a whole has been acclimated to some degree of harder and more alkaline water in the hatcheries they're now raised in.  We can be fairly sure too, that Mollies aren't being raised in close to marine environment conditions, but environments closer to what a species has evolved in are always a benefit for them; the reason why they'll breed much easier when provided their natural conditions.  Water changes have always been in the picture to maintain any aquatic creature, but thanks for the reminder.

              Ray

              In a message dated 8/22/2017 11:55:40 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

               

              Just to add my thoughts to the Molly vs. Salt discussion. One thing to consider is that Mollies often do better with mineral rich (hard) water rather than salt only in softer water. Adding just salt to soft water makes it salty but without any mineral hardness like you get with ocean water or places with a lot of limestone and the like where Mollies often come from. Harder water is often tolerated better by plants than salty water as well. Depending on the Pleco species, this might be true for it as well.

              As Ray pointed out, you have a mix of stuff that do not naturally come from the same types of water so you have to compromise. Who do you cater to? Is your water normally hard or soft to begin with? If it is already hard you may not need to add much (or any salt) for the mollies. If your water is soft, rather than only adding salt, you might consider also trying to harden the water a bit as well, maybe with the addition of sea shells, limestone, or other materials that will naturally harden the water gradually and then adding some salt, but not depending on only salt to do that job. As I said, this approach may result in an environment tolerated better by the plants and Pleco.

              Whatever you choose, don't forget plenty of regular water changes will probably do the best job of keeping your mollies (and other fish) happy as mollies don't do as well in tanks that don't get water changes very often regardless of the make up of the water used.

              Good luck!

              Patrick

               
              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57201 From: sevenspringss Date: 8/24/2017
              Subject: Re: Noura.....Re: [AquaticLife] Brackish Water for Mollies
              Hi Noura,
               
              One other thing I want to touch on here, just to establish something you've indicated to keep in mind for this thread.  Again, my purpose is not to put your simple request under a magnifying glass but just to show what water these fish were previously in -- for the sake of this thread.  While you've indicated that you're not sure how much salt was used with your fish when they were still in the fish farm, your statement appears to indicate there was some level of salt in the fish farm's water -- maybe even conveyed to you by the fish shop owner, although you hadn't stated that.  It does seem clear though, that the shop owner added input in there being salt in the fish farms water, but had no idea how much.   Still, at least I'm taking this as meaning these fish were raised in some level of (slightly) brackish water.  We can comfortably add this to the thread as general information for others.
               
              Ray
               
               
               
              In a message dated 8/21/2017 7:52:31 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
               

              Hi Harry,

              I can’t know for sure how much salt they had in the fish farm. The salt free transition stage (at the pet shop) only lasted for a few days. The owner has no idea either.

              I think I will add the salt very gradually up to the recommended level the plecos and Anubias can handle safely.

              Noura

              From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
              Sent: 22 آب, 2017 02:05 ص
              To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Noura.....Re: [AquaticLife] Brackish Water for Mollies

               

              Ray always gives great information. It's like doing to a webinar.

              Just another thought. While mollies like salt if your mollies came from a non-salt environment for example they weren't kept in brackish water before you got them then they probably have been acclimated to fresh water and salt won't be necessary. Which makes it easier on your other fish and plants.

              Harry
              --------------------------------------------
              On Mon, 8/21/17, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

              Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Brackish Water for Mollies
              To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Monday, August 21, 2017, 6:10 PM


               



               


                 
                   
                   
                   



               
              Noura,
               
              Sorry to hear about the turmoil being so close to home;
              stay safe! 
              It's always best to add any salt gradually, like one
              teaspoon per U.S. Gallon
              per day.  BTW, if any of your female Mollies are ever about
              to give birth,
              don't confine them in a breeder trap as you might do for
              Guppies.  It's too
              stressful for them and they may abort prematurely.   

               
              Ray
               
               
              In a message dated 8/21/2017 3:52:14 P.M. Eastern
              Daylight Time,
              AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
               
               
                Thank you very much, Ray, for a detailed and
              comprehensive answer as usual
                J

              Glad to hear you’re
              doing well! As for the turmoil, we recently had
                some in the city, there has been a car bom- bing just
              three days ago, with a
                few losses, unfortunately. The power outages are a little
              better this summer,
                with 12 hours of outages a day. The fish have adapted to
              some extent, it
                seems, just like we are trying to do.

              I will gradually add 2 tsp of
                salt per US gallon, then. The mollies were kept in
              freshwater (zero salt) at
                the pet store, but I imagine they had some salt in the
              fish farm since they
                seem to be in excellent health and breeding like rabbits
              at the shop (well, I
                think that’s not nearly the best comparison :-D ), I
              just don’t know how much
                salt they had before.

              Thanks again.

              Noura

              From:
                AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
              Sent:
              21
                آب, 2017 06:35 م
              To:
              AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re:
                [AquaticLife] Brackish Water for Mollies

              Hi Noura,

              It's so very
                good to hear from you again. As for me, I'm doing
              fairly well; thanks for
                asking. Hope you're doing well also and that the
              turmoil in your country isn't
                near your vicinity. I'm guessing you still need to put
              up with intermittent
                power outages, though.

              Getting to these fish and plants you have, as
                I'm sure you must know, Mollies do especially well
              with an amount of salt in
                their water -- which no doubt is why you asked your
              question about how much
                you can add. Unfortunately, no freshwater catfish can
              tolerate very much of
                it, so you have two types of fish requiring very different
              conditions. In
                general. freshwater plants do not tolerate very much salt
              either, with some
                being able to take more than others. Fortunately, the
              various Anubias are
                tougher plants and can tolerate more than others, but
              still not even near what
                Mollies do best in.

              Mollies in nature are often found in extremely
                brackish water where the mouth of the rivers they live in
              empty into the
                ocean. They can often be found right in the Gulf of Mexico
              where these rivers
                flow into the marine environment, but will still be found
              short distances up
                these rivers especially during the change of tides. They
              do best in the
                aquarium with about 8 teaspoons of salt per U.S. Gallon --
              but will still do
                good at lower levels. The Pleco, on the other hand would
              do best at not much
                more than about one Tablespoon (three teaspoons) of salt
              per 5 U.S. gallons
                and the Anubias doing as well at around this same salt
              level. This equates to
                1.8 teaspoon of salt per U.S. Gallon. While not being very
              much more, for
                easier use, you can use two teaspoons of salt per gallon
              in maintaining the
                Pleco and Anubias. although it won't be near the
              amount of salt Mollies would
                prefer, but it's at least some salt content to help
              promote the health of
                these Mollies. I wouldn't consider adding very much
              more salt than this,
                though.

              Ray

              In a message dated 8/21/2017
              9:46:55 A.M. Eastern
                Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

              Hi,

              Hope
                everyone is doing well!

              I
              have mollies, a small plico, and Anubias
                Nanas in a tank. How much salt can I get away
                with?

              Thanks,

              Noura

              [Non-text portions of this message
                have been removed]


               

               

                 
                   

                 
                 

               
              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57202 From: sevenspringss Date: 8/24/2017
              Subject: Re: Brackish Water for Mollies
              Byron,
               
              First of all, as one of the moderators here, I'd like to welcome you to this Group.  Factual input is always appreciated by our members.  Please know your not being (totally) ignored as I approved all (or at least most) of you posts as best I'm aware of, despite their content.  I have taken a step back however, for a number of reasons which I'd hope you might consider.
               
              For starters, I'd just like to bring to your attention that its normally the courteous thing to do here as a new member, to introduce yourself, especially since you hadn't been otherwise approved by any of us -- which I saw no intentions of you doing.  While it's not an absolute requirement, most all new members here have done so, going back some 15 years, in the spirit of friendship.  I notice you were approved as a new member by Yahoo on August 22, 2017 @ 11:32;43 AM EDT, just two days ago.  While it's a little late for that now, it would have been a nice gesture, especially when you had so much else to say to a group new to you.  
               
              Secondly, please excuse me in that I find need to take some exception to some that you've input, including your demeaner in one such message sent which is questionable -- and I will point them out to you as direct replies to them, in trusting your understanding. 
               
              As for Ted's article, please know he's not entirely in agreement to what you've indicated, and I'll explain that in full, shortly.   
               
              Regards, 
               
              Ray
               
               
               
              In a message dated 8/23/2017 1:50:47 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
               

              I'm not sure why I am being ignored, but there are articles on the Wet Web site I mentioned, including one by me.  I read the Ted article and he is in agreement.

               
              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57203 From: sevenspringss Date: 8/24/2017
              Subject: Re: Noura.....Re: [AquaticLife] Brackish Water for Mollies
              Byron,
               
              While my purpose is not to discredit you, as I appreciate factual input in this Group, I will start in saying that any advice and/or input I give here on this group is solely from personal experience in the aquarium hobby for over 70 years, as a hobbyist, a hatchery owner, an author, a retail aquarium shop owner, an aquarium fish importer, wholesaler and distributor and collector over those years.  This is only to demonstrate that I don't use information gathered from other more questionable sources, as I'll only state what I've experienced as being factual.  Otherwise, I won't post any other information unless I KNOW it (firsthand) to be factual. 
               
              Your opening statement here can only be taken in general, as while I agree with you in that the use of salt is not in the best interests of most freshwater fishes in most circumstances, there are freshwater fishes that will derive benefit from it, among them, Mollies -- which I'll further explain imminently (but not in this post).  As for circumstances, while many of us know that Ich can be most successfully treated with the use of heat and salt, easing the stress on the infected fish from otherwise harsh chemicals and dies, this is but a short-time use of it.  Another quite beneficial use of salt (long-term) is in the prevention of possible ammonia poisoning and the subsequent effect of Hemorrhagic Septicemia (Brown Blood Syndrome) resulting from Ammonia poisoning.  Only an extremely low level of less than 1/4 teaspoon of salt per gallon already residing in the aquarium water will prevent ammonia poisoning even when adverse water conditions later would ordinarily contribute to (or otherwise ensure) it.  On the other hand once fish contract ammonia poisoning in the absence of any salt in the water, it's often lethal and while it may at times be treatable, the treatment consists of using salt at a level of at least 3 teaspoons full per gallon, for at least two weeks or more (up to three weeks), which not too many fishes will tolerate.  Still, while I'm not advocating the permanent use of salt long-term, this is a very beneficial and safe use of it.  This can be employed when one goes on vacation, with one not having the opportunity to do water change during that period.
               
              As for Plecos not managing any salt on a permanent basis, I'm not sure where you got that information from, or if you know of it firsthand -- But I DO (know firsthand ) that Plecos will manage salt on a permanent basis as I've had a number of them do nicely in salted water, provided the level of it doesn't exceed much more that I've indicated as a "token" amount.  If you've just done Google searches in digging up your information, it's difficult for one to know when it's accurate -- unless you already know whether it is or isn't.  You need to be knowledgeable and that doesn't always come from reading others' works.    
               
              Ordinarily, on this same statement, I'm on the same page as you.  Freshwater fishes don't NEED salt for the most part, and I'll always advise not to use it under ordinary circumstances as a permanent additive to one's water.  But, while freshwater fish don't need salt, there are situations when it will occasionally benefit them.  As for Noura's fish, the low salt level will not be benefiting this Pleco as I'm sure everyone knows, but it's a compromise which I'll get to later.  The small amount of salt to be used will not have an adverse effect on the physiology of the fish Noura's keeping, as it's extremely low-level. 
               
              I fail to understand your meaning of, "Wild fish prefer fresh water" in the same context as "mollies occurring in brackish water in the wild."  This would appear to be a contradiction, but I'm relatively sure you must mean this in a general sense.  Sure, most wild freshwater fishes would naturally prefer freshwater, and preferably the same as they've evolved in as this water's influence helped create the fishes certain physiology.  Technically, we can assume that Mollies are freshwater fish, so if they prefer fresh water, there's nothing to prevent them from swimming upstream (yet they don't) when found in brackish water.    
               
              As for fish available in the hobby being commercially raised in freshwater, there's all kinds of freshwater, specific to the area these fish farms are located at.  Too, I will remind you of what Noura and her aquarium store owner indicated, of their fish farm source maintaining some level of salt, amount undetermined.  "Forcing" these fish into brackish is harsh words, when they apparently came from somewhat brackish water.  Please don't forget, this thread started with Noura's fish, not anyone else's.
               
              Ray 
               
               
               
               
               
              In a message dated 8/22/2017 1:29:07 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
               

              I must caution on the use of salt, this is not in the best interests of your fish.


              First, the pleco will not manage with any salt on a permanent basis.  "Freshwater" fish means exactly that, fresh water, not brackish at any level of salt.  Treating specific disease with salt is one thing, but permanent use of any amount is very different.  This affects the internal physiology of freshwater fish, weakening them, and there is absolutely no benefit.  I have an article online that explains the science, but I don't know if I can link to it here.  At the level being suggested, I can guarantee the pleco will have problems.

              Second, mollies are freshwater fish.  It is true what Ray said about mollies occurring in brackish water in the wild, but there are two aspects to this.  Wild fish prefer freshwater according to observations.  But more importantly, the fish available in the hobby will be commercially raised and in fresh water.  Forcing them into brackish has no benefit, quite the opposite.

              Byron.

               
              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57204 From: sevenspringss Date: 8/24/2017
              Subject: Re: Brackish Water for Mollies
              Hi again Byron,
               
              I find your opening remarks (paragraph one) here interesting, although I'd have reminded you that this Group has been in existence for some 15 years, enabling the members to have long acquired the knowledge you're putting forth, and as such your remarks are appearing as condescending and patronizing.  Please know that, while you're only here two days, that most of us already know that "salt does not increase pH.  I feel the need to ask, if you might think that we only got into the hobby also two days ago(?).  Yes, of course, calcium and magnesium and their carbonic and sulfate salts are the primary water hardeners; you needn't explain that, but I'll accept it as a reminder.  As for hard water, high in calcium and/or magnesium being "critical for mollies," while it may benefit them, it's not critical nor essential.  Again, I'll substantiate this in my closing post so there's no need to refute this at this time, even if it doesn't seem accurate.
               
              I regret to have to tell you that you next statement is absolutely false, and I'm not saying this to be critical of you, but as a matter of fact.  You state that "in soft water, mollies will not fare well, slowly weakening and dying."  Nothing could be further from the truth, unless you're expressing this in general terms, as this does not pertain to all mollies, and again I'll substantiate this.  To use blanket terms though is extremely misleading to say the least.  With inaccurate reporting here, I rather don't think I'd need to search for your salt article when I'm not seeing authoritative writing here.  I'd suggest if you don't know all the needed facts, that you inquire of someone more knowledgeable, and that's not necessarily me, but Livebearer specialists like Dr. Ted Coletti, whom I'll be referencing here soon.
               
              Ray 
               
               
               
              In a message dated 8/22/2017 5:35:58 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
               

              As Patrick mentioned, the issue with mollies (and all livebearers and fish requiring "hard" water) is the mineral content of the water, measured as GH (general hardness).  Salt is not one of these minerals, and adding salt does not increase GH.  Calcium and magnesium are the primary minerals, and hard water generally is high in these.  And that is critical for mollies.


              In soft water, or water that is acidic in pH (the two usually but not always go together), mollies will not fare well, slowly weakening and dying.  Common signs are shimmies, fungus, increased respiration...these worsen until the fish just dies.  [Note, I'm talking about mollies.]  The minerals in the water are essential for the fish's metabolism and physiology to function.  And the pH must be above 7; no problem with 8 or 8.2 for mollies.  [Your pleco may not be happy with either, but that partly depends upon the species and where it occurs naturally.]

              My article on salt explains the detriment to freshwater fish.  You can find it easily by doing a Google or similar search for "Salt in the Freshwater Aquarium Byron Hosking."  It is on Wet Web Media.  Articles by Neale Monks also cautioning on salt are there too.

              Byron.

              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57205 From: sevenspringss Date: 8/24/2017
              Subject: Re: Brackish Water for Mollies
              Patrick and Byron,
               
              After I last posted yesterday (8/23) at 10:49 AM EDT in reply to your post here, it occurred to me in the afternoon that there was a good chance I might see Dr. Ted Coletti last evening at the monthly MAKA (Metropolitan Area Killifish Association) meeting if he attends.  Well, Dr. Ted did indeed attend and one of the first things I asked him was to please give me a brief summary of the Molly/Salt article he wrote for the October 1991 FAMA issue if he could recall it, and any further input he could expand on in this same topic.  We had a very pleasant (and enlightening) 20 minute conversation before the meeting started and I came away fairly well-versed in Ted's knowledge on the subject, then and now.  
               
              Naturally the first point revolved around whether Mollies (any Mollies) actually need salt, and this developed into a good talk in itself.  Of course, some don't, and have never seen salt, as many of us already know -- such as Mollienesia petenensis - which inhabits the freshwater Lake Peten in Nicaragua.  I asked Ted about Mollienesis velifera and salt, just out of curiousity, even though it's not commonly seen in the hobby, and he said this species is not as often found in brackish water in the wild, and while it doesn't need salt -- as we all know -- it does best at lower-end brackish water rather than in pure freshwater.  He went on to say that all too often (even if not always), if they're kept in salt-free water they can develop Shimmies.  By that, it might be considered that they do need some salt to do best.        .   
               
              The conversation turned to brackish water Mollies in the wild and Ted stated they're mostly M. latipinna, which are fairly common in the aquarium trade today.  Then I brought up the topic of Mollies and hard water and he said while most Mollies benefit from it, primarily because most Central American rivers in the eastern drainage have hard and alkaline water, as is known by Central American Cichlid's doing best in this type of water, the Florida fish farms where most Mollies in this country are raised have the very same type of water because of the aquifers in southern Florida being in underground beds of coral skeletons resulting in southern Florida having been submerged by ocean water many millenia ago.  Mollies raised at other fish farms, such as in Louisiana, often won't have such hard water and as high of a pH -- and won't need to have their water adjusted that extremely.   
               
              So then, I ask him, Do Mollies need hard water and he said not necessarily as there are even wild populations of Mollies today living in soft acid water -- which was quite enlightening to me.  Another pertinent question I asked him was Do Mollies in general (any of the species) need salt, and he said no, but when I asked him if salt would benefit them he said it definitely would, although, just like increasing the pH and hardness, you'd need to acclimate the fish to it - but that would be expected.  If the fish wasn't raised in southern Florida, there'd be no reason or increased benefit to provide a very high pH or very hard water.  I tend to doubt Noura's Mollies were imported from the U.S.A. and possibly never experienced very hard water or a pH value of 8 or higher except for at her local fish shop, but some salt for most Mollies (except for those living in soft acid water, which aren't commercially collected anyway) is apparently beneficial, as per Dr. Ted Coletti.  If you need clarification (or verification) on any of this you can email Dr. Coletti at either < Dr.Ted1965@... > or < theodore.coletti@...
              >, or BOTH.  I'm not sure how this compares with his FAMA article, as
              he's probably amended some of his beliefs on these fish in the 26 years since he wrote that, but this was right from the source.  Much of this goes right against what your proclaiming as factual, Byron, and some outright opposes it.  Please don't post unsubstantiated facts in the future as they're no in our best interest; thank you.       
               
              Ray      
               
               
               
              In a message dated 8/23/2017 9:19:15 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
               

              I have a great article that I scanned in decades ago by Dr. Ted Coletti who wrote a regular column about live bearers in Freshwater and Marine Aquarium magazine (aka FAMA) back in the late 80s and early 90s. This one is titled "The Great Molly-Salt Debate" dated October 1991. I would upload it to the group's files section, but either uploads are now turned off or I don't have access or I simply and missing where the upload link is.

               
              Regards,
              Patrick

               
              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57206 From: Noura T. Date: 8/25/2017
              Subject: Re: Noura.....Re: [AquaticLife] Brackish Water for Mollies

              Hi Ray,

              Your assumption is correct. The pH is 8 to 8.2, not the hardness. My bad!

              But our tap water is quite hard as well, that’s a well known fact in our area.

              As for your other question regarding the existence of salt in the fish farm, the seller did not imply that. I have just assumed it by noticing the very good health condition of these mollies, somehow I had the impression that mollies do not do so well unless salt was added to their water. That’s why I assumed they were bred in salty water. That’s all.

              If fish breeders are stating that mollies can be kept and bred in freshwater in particular cases, then my assumption holds no ground.

               

              Anyway, I noticed that one of the mollies (the mother) is not doing well, there’s a thin white coating on her body. She could be stressed because she gave birth on the very night we got her, about ten days ago. I have now added two tablespoons of water to the 21 liters tank, hoping to help her somehow. The pleco seems well and active after 24 hours of adding the salt.

               

              Best,

              Noura

               

              From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
              Sent: 25 آب, 2017 05:12 ص
              To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: Noura.....Re: [AquaticLife] Brackish Water for Mollies

               

               

              Hi Noura,

               

              One other thing I want to touch on here, just to establish something you've indicated to keep in mind for this thread.  Again, my purpose is not to put your simple request under a magnifying glass but just to show what water these fish were previously in -- for the sake of this thread.  While you've indicated that you're not sure how much salt was used with your fish when they were still in the fish farm, your statement appears to indicate there was some level of salt in the fish farm's water -- maybe even conveyed to you by the fish shop owner, although you hadn't stated that.  It does seem clear though, that the shop owner added input in there being salt in the fish farms water, but had no idea how much.   Still, at least I'm taking this as meaning these fish were raised in some level of (slightly) brackish water.  We can comfortably add this to the thread as general information for others.

               

              Ray

               

               

               

              In a message dated 8/21/2017 7:52:31 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

               

              Hi Harry,

              I can’t know for sure how much salt they had in the fish farm. The salt free transition stage (at the pet shop) only lasted for a few days. The owner has no idea either.

              I think I will add the salt very gradually up to the recommended level the plecos and Anubias can handle safely.

              Noura

              From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
              Sent: 22 آب, 2017 02:05 ص
              To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Noura.....Re: [AquaticLife] Brackish Water for Mollies

               

              Ray always gives great information. It's like doing to a webinar.

              Just another thought. While mollies like salt if your mollies came from a non-salt environment for example they weren't kept in brackish water before you got them then they probably have been acclimated to fresh water and salt won't be necessary. Which makes it easier on your other fish and plants.

              Harry
              --------------------------------------------
              On Mon, 8/21/17, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

              Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Brackish Water for Mollies
              To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Monday, August 21, 2017, 6:10 PM


               



               


                 
                   
                   
                   



               
              Noura,
               
              Sorry to hear about the turmoil being so close to home;
              stay safe! 
              It's always best to add any salt gradually, like one
              teaspoon per U.S. Gallon
              per day.  BTW, if any of your female Mollies are ever about
              to give birth,
              don't confine them in a breeder trap as you might do for
              Guppies.  It's too
              stressful for them and they may abort prematurely.   

               
              Ray
               
               
              In a message dated 8/21/2017 3:52:14 P.M. Eastern
              Daylight Time,
              AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
               
               
                Thank you very much, Ray, for a detailed and
              comprehensive answer as usual
                J

              Glad to hear you’re
              doing well! As for the turmoil, we recently had
                some in the city, there has been a car bom- bing just
              three days ago, with a
                few losses, unfortunately. The power outages are a little
              better this summer,
                with 12 hours of outages a day. The fish have adapted to
              some extent, it
                seems, just like we are trying to do.

              I will gradually add 2 tsp of
                salt per US gallon, then. The mollies were kept in
              freshwater (zero salt) at
                the pet store, but I imagine they had some salt in the
              fish farm since they
                seem to be in excellent health and breeding like rabbits
              at the shop (well, I
                think that’s not nearly the best comparison :-D ), I
              just don’t know how much
                salt they had before.

              Thanks again.

              Noura

              From:
                AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
              Sent:
              21
                آب, 2017 06:35 م
              To:
              AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re:
                [AquaticLife] Brackish Water for Mollies

              Hi Noura,

              It's so very
                good to hear from you again. As for me, I'm doing
              fairly well; thanks for
                asking. Hope you're doing well also and that the
              turmoil in your country isn't
                near your vicinity. I'm guessing you still need to put
              up with intermittent
                power outages, though.

              Getting to these fish and plants you have, as
                I'm sure you must know, Mollies do especially well
              with an amount of salt in
                their water -- which no doubt is why you asked your
              question about how much
                you can add. Unfortunately, no freshwater catfish can
              tolerate very much of
                it, so you have two types of fish requiring very different
              conditions. In
                general. freshwater plants do not tolerate very much salt
              either, with some
                being able to take more than others. Fortunately, the
              various Anubias are
                tougher plants and can tolerate more than others, but
              still not even near what
                Mollies do best in.

              Mollies in nature are often found in extremely
                brackish water where the mouth of the rivers they live in
              empty into the
                ocean. They can often be found right in the Gulf of Mexico
              where these rivers
                flow into the marine environment, but will still be found
              short distances up
                these rivers especially during the change of tides. They
              do best in the
                aquarium with about 8 teaspoons of salt per U.S. Gallon --
              but will still do
                good at lower levels. The Pleco, on the other hand would
              do best at not much
                more than about one Tablespoon (three teaspoons) of salt
              per 5 U.S. gallons
                and the Anubias doing as well at around this same salt
              level. This equates to
                1.8 teaspoon of salt per U.S. Gallon. While not being very
              much more, for
                easier use, you can use two teaspoons of salt per gallon
              in maintaining the
                Pleco and Anubias. although it won't be near the
              amount of salt Mollies would
                prefer, but it's at least some salt content to help
              promote the health of
                these Mollies. I wouldn't consider adding very much
              more salt than this,
                though.

              Ray

              In a message dated 8/21/2017
              9:46:55 A.M. Eastern
                Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

              Hi,

              Hope
                everyone is doing well!

              I
              have mollies, a small plico, and Anubias
                Nanas in a tank. How much salt can I get away
                with?

              Thanks,

              Noura

              [Non-text portions of this message
                have been removed]


               

               

                 
                   

                 
                 

               

              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57207 From: sevenspringss Date: 8/25/2017
              Subject: Re: Noura.....Re: [AquaticLife] Brackish Water for Mollies
              Hi Noura,
               
              Good timing.  I wasn't up on line more than 5 minutes when I saw your message come in for approval.  As for the hardness and these numbers, I had assumed they had to refer to your pH but I understood your water was undoubtedly hard.  I asked only to clarify this for any others -- and thanks.  
               
              Looks like I misunderstood you said about the shop owner.  When you sent your message to Harry about your not knowing how much salt they had in the fish farm, and continued with the shop owner having no idea either, it looked to me that while the shop owner knew the fish farm has salt in their water, that he just didn't know how much.  Okay, well at least we know that the fish farm may not (or still may have) have salt.     
               
              Sounds like your mother Molly has a bodily infection, alright, which may be caused by a fungus or more possibly by your brief description, a bacteria.  Sorry to hear about this.  I know fish medications are difficult at best to obtain in Syria, but if anything's available please let me know and I'll suggest a medication of choice.  Otherwise, adding the salt -- at the rate of two tablespoons of salt (not water, as per your typo < g >) per 21 Liters is about the best you could do for it.  Not the best thing for the Pleco, though, and if you have a small spare tank you could transfer the Molly to, I'd advise it.  In this way, you could at least administer a progressive salt treatment, adding one teaspoon per gallon each day -- which should be a detriment to the infection.  My worst fear though, is that it might be Columnaris, since you indicate a thin white coating.  This is not easily treated without the proper medication but we'll take it one step at a time.
               
              Not likely her giving birth would cause stress enough to promote any such kind of infection, unless she was stressed in some manner previously -- either physically or chemically (as in water chemistry), or even via a wider temperature change than she'd otherwise be expected to tolerate.  You can't add anymore salt to her water as long as the Pleco remains with her. 
               
              Ray
               
               
              In a message dated 8/25/2017 7:37:20 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
               

              Hi Ray,

              Your assumption is correct. The pH is 8 to 8.2, not the hardness. My bad!

              But our tap water is quite hard as well, that’s a well known fact in our area.

              As for your other question regarding the existence of salt in the fish farm, the seller did not imply that. I have just assumed it by noticing the very good health condition of these mollies, somehow I had the impression that mollies do not do so well unless salt was added to their water. That’s why I assumed they were bred in salty water. That’s all.

              If fish breeders are stating that mollies can be kept and bred in freshwater in particular cases, then my assumption holds no ground.

              Anyway, I noticed that one of the mollies (the mother) is not doing well, there’s a thin white coating on her body. She could be stressed because she gave birth on the very night we got her, about ten days ago. I have now added two tablespoons of water to the 21 liters tank, hoping to help her somehow. The pleco seems well and active after 24 hours of adding the salt.

              Best,

              Noura

              From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
              Sent: 25 آب, 2017 05:12 ص
              To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: Noura.....Re: [AquaticLife] Brackish Water for Mollies

               

              Hi Noura,

              One other thing I want to touch on here, just to establish something you've indicated to keep in mind for this thread.  Again, my purpose is not to put your simple request under a magnifying glass but just to show what water these fish were previously in -- for the sake of this thread.  While you've indicated that you're not sure how much salt was used with your fish when they were still in the fish farm, your statement appears to indicate there was some level of salt in the fish farm's water -- maybe even conveyed to you by the fish shop owner, although you hadn't stated that.  It does seem clear though, that the shop owner added input in there being salt in the fish farms water, but had no idea how much.   Still, at least I'm taking this as meaning these fish were raised in some level of (slightly) brackish water.  We can comfortably add this to the thread as general information for others.

              Ray

              In a message dated 8/21/2017 7:52:31 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

               

              Hi Harry,

              I can’t know for sure how much salt they had in the fish farm. The salt free transition stage (at the pet shop) only lasted for a few days. The owner has no idea either.

              I think I will add the salt very gradually up to the recommended level the plecos and Anubias can handle safely.

              Noura

              From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
              Sent: 22 آب, 2017 02:05 ص
              To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Noura.....Re: [AquaticLife] Brackish Water for Mollies

               

              Ray always gives great information. It's like doing to a webinar.

              Just another thought. While mollies like salt if your mollies came from a non-salt environment for example they weren't kept in brackish water before you got them then they probably have been acclimated to fresh water and salt won't be necessary. Which makes it easier on your other fish and plants.

              Harry
              --------------------------------------------
              On Mon, 8/21/17, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

              Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Brackish Water for Mollies
              To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Monday, August 21, 2017, 6:10 PM


               



               


                 
                   
                   
                   



               
              Noura,
               
              Sorry to hear about the turmoil being so close to home;
              stay safe! 
              It's always best to add any salt gradually, like one
              teaspoon per U.S. Gallon
              per day.  BTW, if any of your female Mollies are ever about
              to give birth,
              don't confine them in a breeder trap as you might do for
              Guppies.  It's too
              stressful for them and they may abort prematurely.   

               
              Ray
               
               
              In a message dated 8/21/2017 3:52:14 P.M. Eastern
              Daylight Time,
              AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
               
               
                Thank you very much, Ray, for a detailed and
              comprehensive answer as usual
                J

              Glad to hear you’re
              doing well! As for the turmoil, we recently had
                some in the city, there has been a car bom- bing just
              three days ago, with a
                few losses, unfortunately. The power outages are a little
              better this summer,
                with 12 hours of outages a day. The fish have adapted to
              some extent, it
                seems, just like we are trying to do.

              I will gradually add 2 tsp of
                salt per US gallon, then. The mollies were kept in
              freshwater (zero salt) at
                the pet store, but I imagine they had some salt in the
              fish farm since they
                seem to be in excellent health and breeding like rabbits
              at the shop (well, I
                think that’s not nearly the best comparison :-D ), I
              just don’t know how much
                salt they had before.

              Thanks again.

              Noura

              From:
                AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
              Sent:
              21
                آب, 2017 06:35 م
              To:
              AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re:
                [AquaticLife] Brackish Water for Mollies

              Hi Noura,

              It's so very
                good to hear from you again. As for me, I'm doing
              fairly well; thanks for
                asking. Hope you're doing well also and that the
              turmoil in your country isn't
                near your vicinity. I'm guessing you still need to put
              up with intermittent
                power outages, though.

              Getting to these fish and plants you have, as
                I'm sure you must know, Mollies do especially well
              with an amount of salt in
                their water -- which no doubt is why you asked your
              question about how much
                you can add. Unfortunately, no freshwater catfish can
              tolerate very much of
                it, so you have two types of fish requiring very different
              conditions. In
                general. freshwater plants do not tolerate very much salt
              either, with some
                being able to take more than others. Fortunately, the
              various Anubias are
                tougher plants and can tolerate more than others, but
              still not even near what
                Mollies do best in.

              Mollies in nature are often found in extremely
                brackish water where the mouth of the rivers they live in
              empty into the
                ocean. They can often be found right in the Gulf of Mexico
              where these rivers
                flow into the marine environment, but will still be found
              short distances up
                these rivers especially during the change of tides. They
              do best in the
                aquarium with about 8 teaspoons of salt per U.S. Gallon --
              but will still do
                good at lower levels. The Pleco, on the other hand would
              do best at not much
                more than about one Tablespoon (three teaspoons) of salt
              per 5 U.S. gallons
                and the Anubias doing as well at around this same salt
              level. This equates to
                1.8 teaspoon of salt per U.S. Gallon. While not being very
              much more, for
                easier use, you can use two teaspoons of salt per gallon
              in maintaining the
                Pleco and Anubias. although it won't be near the
              amount of salt Mollies would
                prefer, but it's at least some salt content to help
              promote the health of
                these Mollies. I wouldn't consider adding very much
              more salt than this,
                though.

              Ray

              In a message dated 8/21/2017
              9:46:55 A.M. Eastern
                Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

              Hi,

              Hope
                everyone is doing well!

              I
              have mollies, a small plico, and Anubias
                Nanas in a tank. How much salt can I get away
                with?

              Thanks,

              Noura

              [Non-text portions of this message
                have been removed]


               

               

                 
                   

                 
                 

               
              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57208 From: Noura T. Date: 8/25/2017
              Subject: Re: Noura.....Re: [AquaticLife] Brackish Water for Mollies

              Hi Ray,

               

              Sorry about the confusion J

              I will set up a hospital tank (6 liters) for the Molly today. We do have some fish medications now, locally manufactured so I’m not confident of the quality, but it’s all we have.

              Please let me know whether it is best to get an antibiotic or an anti fungal (or both?). I don’t know what’s available right now, as some varieties go missing for months, or what the active ingredients are. The packages do no always indicate these, they state the medical use (For internal bacterial infection, for example). I have to actually go to the store to know all that. Probably on Sunday.

              If it helps at all to know, she’s getting thinner as well. The others look fine.

               

              Thank you,

              Noura

               

              From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
              Sent: 25 آب, 2017 03:10 م
              To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: Noura.....Re: [AquaticLife] Brackish Water for Mollies

               

               

              Hi Noura,

               

              Good timing.  I wasn't up on line more than 5 minutes when I saw your message come in for approval.  As for the hardness and these numbers, I had assumed they had to refer to your pH but I understood your water was undoubtedly hard.  I asked only to clarify this for any others -- and thanks.  

               

              Looks like I misunderstood you said about the shop owner.  When you sent your message to Harry about your not knowing how much salt they had in the fish farm, and continued with the shop owner having no idea either, it looked to me that while the shop owner knew the fish farm has salt in their water, that he just didn't know how much.  Okay, well at least we know that the fish farm may not (or still may have) have salt.     

               

              Sounds like your mother Molly has a bodily infection, alright, which may be caused by a fungus or more possibly by your brief description, a bacteria.  Sorry to hear about this.  I know fish medications are difficult at best to obtain in Syria, but if anything's available please let me know and I'll suggest a medication of choice.  Otherwise, adding the salt -- at the rate of two tablespoons of salt (not water, as per your typo < g >) per 21 Liters is about the best you could do for it.  Not the best thing for the Pleco, though, and if you have a small spare tank you could transfer the Molly to, I'd advise it.  In this way, you could at least administer a progressive salt treatment, adding one teaspoon per gallon each day -- which should be a detriment to the infection.  My worst fear though, is that it might be Columnaris, since you indicate a thin white coating.  This is not easily treated without the proper medication but we'll take it one step at a time.

               

              Not likely her giving birth would cause stress enough to promote any such kind of infection, unless she was stressed in some manner previously -- either physically or chemically (as in water chemistry), or even via a wider temperature change than she'd otherwise be expected to tolerate.  You can't add anymore salt to her water as long as the Pleco remains with her. 

               

              Ray

               

               

              In a message dated 8/25/2017 7:37:20 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

               

              Hi Ray,

              Your assumption is correct. The pH is 8 to 8.2, not the hardness. My bad!

              But our tap water is quite hard as well, that’s a well known fact in our area.

              As for your other question regarding the existence of salt in the fish farm, the seller did not imply that. I have just assumed it by noticing the very good health condition of these mollies, somehow I had the impression that mollies do not do so well unless salt was added to their water. That’s why I assumed they were bred in salty water. That’s all.

              If fish breeders are stating that mollies can be kept and bred in freshwater in particular cases, then my assumption holds no ground.

              Anyway, I noticed that one of the mollies (the mother) is not doing well, there’s a thin white coating on her body. She could be stressed because she gave birth on the very night we got her, about ten days ago. I have now added two tablespoons of water to the 21 liters tank, hoping to help her somehow. The pleco seems well and active after 24 hours of adding the salt.

              Best,

              Noura

              From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
              Sent: 25 آب, 2017 05:12 ص
              To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: Noura.....Re: [AquaticLife] Brackish Water for Mollies

               

              Hi Noura,

              One other thing I want to touch on here, just to establish something you've indicated to keep in mind for this thread.  Again, my purpose is not to put your simple request under a magnifying glass but just to show what water these fish were previously in -- for the sake of this thread.  While you've indicated that you're not sure how much salt was used with your fish when they were still in the fish farm, your statement appears to indicate there was some level of salt in the fish farm's water -- maybe even conveyed to you by the fish shop owner, although you hadn't stated that.  It does seem clear though, that the shop owner added input in there being salt in the fish farms water, but had no idea how much.   Still, at least I'm taking this as meaning these fish were raised in some level of (slightly) brackish water.  We can comfortably add this to the thread as general information for others.

              Ray

              In a message dated 8/21/2017 7:52:31 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

               

              Hi Harry,

              I can’t know for sure how much salt they had in the fish farm. The salt free transition stage (at the pet shop) only lasted for a few days. The owner has no idea either.

              I think I will add the salt very gradually up to the recommended level the plecos and Anubias can handle safely.

              Noura

              From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
              Sent: 22 آب, 2017 02:05 ص
              To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Noura.....Re: [AquaticLife] Brackish Water for Mollies

               

              Ray always gives great information. It's like doing to a webinar.

              Just another thought. While mollies like salt if your mollies came from a non-salt environment for example they weren't kept in brackish water before you got them then they probably have been acclimated to fresh water and salt won't be necessary. Which makes it easier on your other fish and plants.

              Harry
              --------------------------------------------
              On Mon, 8/21/17, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

              Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Brackish Water for Mollies
              To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Monday, August 21, 2017, 6:10 PM


               



               


                 
                   
                   
                   



               
              Noura,
               
              Sorry to hear about the turmoil being so close to home;
              stay safe! 
              It's always best to add any salt gradually, like one
              teaspoon per U.S. Gallon
              per day.  BTW, if any of your female Mollies are ever about
              to give birth,
              don't confine them in a breeder trap as you might do for
              Guppies.  It's too
              stressful for them and they may abort prematurely.   

               
              Ray
               
               
              In a message dated 8/21/2017 3:52:14 P.M. Eastern
              Daylight Time,
              AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
               
               
                Thank you very much, Ray, for a detailed and
              comprehensive answer as usual
                J

              Glad to hear you’re
              doing well! As for the turmoil, we recently had
                some in the city, there has been a car bom- bing just
              three days ago, with a
                few losses, unfortunately. The power outages are a little
              better this summer,
                with 12 hours of outages a day. The fish have adapted to
              some extent, it
                seems, just like we are trying to do.

              I will gradually add 2 tsp of
                salt per US gallon, then. The mollies were kept in
              freshwater (zero salt) at
                the pet store, but I imagine they had some salt in the
              fish farm since they
                seem to be in excellent health and breeding like rabbits
              at the shop (well, I
                think that’s not nearly the best comparison :-D ), I
              just don’t know how much
                salt they had before.

              Thanks again.

              Noura

              From:
                AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
              Sent:
              21
                آب, 2017 06:35 م
              To:
              AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re:
                [AquaticLife] Brackish Water for Mollies

              Hi Noura,

              It's so very
                good to hear from you again. As for me, I'm doing
              fairly well; thanks for
                asking. Hope you're doing well also and that the
              turmoil in your country isn't
                near your vicinity. I'm guessing you still need to put
              up with intermittent
                power outages, though.

              Getting to these fish and plants you have, as
                I'm sure you must know, Mollies do especially well
              with an amount of salt in
                their water -- which no doubt is why you asked your
              question about how much
                you can add. Unfortunately, no freshwater catfish can
              tolerate very much of
                it, so you have two types of fish requiring very different
              conditions. In
                general. freshwater plants do not tolerate very much salt
              either, with some
                being able to take more than others. Fortunately, the
              various Anubias are
                tougher plants and can tolerate more than others, but
              still not even near what
                Mollies do best in.

              Mollies in nature are often found in extremely
                brackish water where the mouth of the rivers they live in
              empty into the
                ocean. They can often be found right in the Gulf of Mexico
              where these rivers
                flow into the marine environment, but will still be found
              short distances up
                these rivers especially during the change of tides. They
              do best in the
                aquarium with about 8 teaspoons of salt per U.S. Gallon --
              but will still do
                good at lower levels. The Pleco, on the other hand would
              do best at not much
                more than about one Tablespoon (three teaspoons) of salt
              per 5 U.S. gallons
                and the Anubias doing as well at around this same salt
              level. This equates to
                1.8 teaspoon of salt per U.S. Gallon. While not being very
              much more, for
                easier use, you can use two teaspoons of salt per gallon
              in maintaining the
                Pleco and Anubias. although it won't be near the
              amount of salt Mollies would
                prefer, but it's at least some salt content to help
              promote the health of
                these Mollies. I wouldn't consider adding very much
              more salt than this,
                though.

              Ray

              In a message dated 8/21/2017
              9:46:55 A.M. Eastern
                Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

              Hi,

              Hope
                everyone is doing well!

              I
              have mollies, a small plico, and Anubias
                Nanas in a tank. How much salt can I get away
                with?

              Thanks,

              Noura

              [Non-text portions of this message
                have been removed]


               

               

                 
                   

                 
                 

               

              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57209 From: Harry Perry Date: 8/25/2017
              Subject: Noura...again.....Re: [AquaticLife] Brackish Water for Mollies
              Mollies, on average, life expectancy, is 3 to 5 years. Depending on care, water quality etc.

              This needs to be taken into consideration.

              The type of meds will depend on what your seeing. As to viral or bacterial in nature.

              Harry
              --------------------------------------------
              On Fri, 8/25/17, 'Noura T.' n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

              Subject: RE: Noura.....Re: [AquaticLife] Brackish Water for Mollies
              To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Friday, August 25, 2017, 9:31 AM


               



                


                  
                    
                    
                     Hi Ray,  Sorry about the
              confusion JI will set up a
              hospital tank (6 liters) for the Molly today. We do have
              some fish medications now, locally manufactured so I’m not
              confident of the quality, but it’s all we
              have.Please let me know
              whether it is best to get an antibiotic or an anti fungal
              (or both?). I don’t know what’s available right now, as
              some varieties go missing for months, or what the active
              ingredients are. The packages do no always indicate these,
              they state the medical use (For internal bacterial
              infection, for example). I have to actually go to the store
              to know all that. Probably on Sunday.If it helps at all
              to know, she’s getting thinner as well. The others look
              fine.  Thank
              you,Noura  From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
              Sent: 25 آب, 2017 03:10 م
              To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: Noura.....Re: [AquaticLife]
              Brackish Water for Mollies    Hi
              Noura, Good timing.  I wasn't up on line
              more than 5 minutes when I saw your message come in for
              approval.  As for the hardness and these numbers, I had
              assumed they had to refer to your pH but I understood your
              water was undoubtedly hard.  I asked only to clarify this
              for any others -- and thanks.   Looks like I misunderstood you said
              about the shop owner.  When you sent your message to Harry
              about your not knowing how much salt they had in the fish
              farm, and continued with the shop owner having no idea
              either, it looked to me that while the shop owner knew the
              fish farm has salt in their water, that he just didn't
              know how much.  Okay, well at least we know that the fish
              farm may not (or still may have) have salt. 
                  Sounds like your mother Molly has a
              bodily infection, alright, which may be caused by a fungus
              or more possibly by your brief description, a bacteria. 
              Sorry to hear about this.  I know fish medications are
              difficult at best to obtain in Syria, but if anything's
              available please let me know and I'll suggest a
              medication of choice.  Otherwise, adding the salt -- at the
              rate of two tablespoons of salt (not water, as per your
              typo < g >) per 21 Liters is about the best you could
              do for it.  Not the best thing for the Pleco, though, and
              if you have a small spare tank you could transfer the Molly
              to, I'd advise it.  In this way, you could at least
              administer a progressive salt treatment, adding one teaspoon
              per gallon each day -- which should be a detriment to the
              infection.  My worst fear though, is that it might be
              Columnaris, since you indicate a thin white coating.  This
              is not easily treated without the proper medication but
              we'll take it one step at a time. Not
              likely her giving birth would cause stress enough to promote
              any such kind of infection, unless she was stressed in some
              manner previously -- either physically or chemically (as in
              water chemistry), or even via a wider temperature change
              than she'd otherwise be expected to tolerate.  You
              can't add anymore salt to her water as long as the Pleco
              remains with her.   Ray  In a message dated
              8/25/2017 7:37:20 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              writes:  Hi Ray,Your assumption is
              correct. The pH is 8 to 8.2, not the hardness. My
              bad!But our tap water is
              quite hard as well, that’s a well known fact in our area.
              As for your other
              question regarding the existence of salt in the fish farm,
              the seller did not imply that. I have just assumed it by
              noticing the very good health condition of these mollies,
              somehow I had the impression that mollies do not do so well
              unless salt was added to their water. That’s why I assumed
              they were bred in salty water. That’s all. If fish breeders are
              stating that mollies can be kept and bred in freshwater in
              particular cases, then my assumption holds no ground.
              Anyway, I noticed
              that one of the mollies (the mother) is not doing well,
              there’s a thin white coating on her body. She could be
              stressed because she gave birth on the very night we got
              her, about ten days ago. I have now added two tablespoons of
              water to the 21 liters tank, hoping to help her somehow. The
              pleco seems well and active after 24 hours of adding the
              salt. Best,NouraFrom: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]

              Sent: 25 آب, 2017 05:12 ص
              To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: Noura.....Re: [AquaticLife]
              Brackish Water for Mollies 
              Hi
              Noura,One
              other thing I want to touch on here, just to establish
              something you've indicated to keep in mind for this
              thread.  Again, my purpose is not to put your simple
              request under a magnifying glass but just to show
              what water these fish were previously in -- for the sake of
              this thread.  While you've indicated that you're
              not sure how much salt was used with your fish when they
              were still in the fish farm, your statement appears to
              indicate there was some level of salt in the fish farm's
              water -- maybe even conveyed to you by the fish shop owner,
              although you hadn't stated that.  It does seem clear
              though, that the shop owner added input in there being salt
              in the fish farms water, but had no idea how much. 
               Still, at least I'm taking this as meaning these fish
              were raised in some level of (slightly) brackish water.  We
              can comfortably add this to the thread as general
              information for others.RayIn a message dated
              8/21/2017 7:52:31 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              writes:  Hi
              Harry,I can’t know for
              sure how much salt they had in the fish farm. The salt free
              transition stage (at the pet shop) only lasted for a few
              days. The owner has no idea either. I think I will add
              the salt very gradually up to the recommended level the
              plecos and Anubias can handle safely.NouraFrom: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]

              Sent: 22 آب, 2017 02:05 ص
              To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Noura.....Re: [AquaticLife]
              Brackish Water for Mollies 
              Ray always gives great
              information. It's like doing to a webinar.

              Just another thought. While
              mollies like salt if your mollies came from a non-salt
              environment for example they weren't kept in brackish
              water before you got them then they probably have been
              acclimated to fresh water and salt won't be necessary.
              Which makes it easier on your other fish and plants.

              Harry
              --------------------------------------------
              On Mon, 8/21/17, sevenspringss1@...
              [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
              wrote:

              Subject: Re:
              [AquaticLife] Brackish Water for Mollies
              To:
              AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Monday, August 21, 2017, 6:10 PM


               



               


                 
                   
                   
                   



               
              Noura,
               
              Sorry to hear about the turmoil being so close
              to home;
              stay safe! 
              It's always best to add any salt gradually,
              like one
              teaspoon per U.S. Gallon
              per day.  BTW, if any of your female Mollies
              are ever about
              to give birth,
              don't confine them in a breeder trap as you
              might do for
              Guppies.  It's too
              stressful for them and they may abort
              prematurely.   

               
              Ray
               
               
              In a message dated 8/21/2017 3:52:14 P.M.
              Eastern
              Daylight Time,
              AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              writes:
               
               
                Thank you very much, Ray, for a detailed
              and
              comprehensive answer as usual
                J

              Glad to
              hear you’re
              doing well! As for the
              turmoil, we recently had
                some in the
              city, there has been a car bom- bing just
              three days ago, with a
                few
              losses, unfortunately. The power outages are a little
              better this summer,
                with 12
              hours of outages a day. The fish have adapted to
              some extent, it
                seems, just
              like we are trying to do.

              I
              will gradually add 2 tsp of
                salt per US
              gallon, then. The mollies were kept in
              freshwater (zero salt) at
               
              the pet store, but I imagine they had some salt in the
              fish farm since they
                seem
              to be in excellent health and breeding like rabbits
              at the shop (well, I
                think
              that’s not nearly the best comparison :-D ), I
              just don’t know how much
               
              salt they had before.

              Thanks again.

              Noura

              From:

                AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]

              Sent:
              21
                آب, 2017
              06:35 م
              To:
              AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re:
                [AquaticLife]
              Brackish Water for Mollies

              Hi Noura,

              It's so very
                good to
              hear from you again. As for me, I'm doing
              fairly well; thanks for
               
              asking. Hope you're doing well also and that the
              turmoil in your country isn't
                near your vicinity. I'm guessing you
              still need to put
              up with intermittent
                power outages, though.

              Getting to these fish and plants you have, as

                I'm sure you must know, Mollies do
              especially well
              with an amount of salt in

                their water -- which no doubt is why you
              asked your
              question about how much
                you can add. Unfortunately, no freshwater
              catfish can
              tolerate very much of
                it, so you have two types of fish requiring
              very different
              conditions. In
                general. freshwater plants do not tolerate
              very much salt
              either, with some
                being able to take more than others.
              Fortunately, the
              various Anubias are
                tougher plants and can tolerate more than
              others, but
              still not even near what
                Mollies do best in.

              Mollies in nature are often found in extremely

                brackish water where the mouth of the
              rivers they live in
              empty into the
                ocean. They can often be found right in the
              Gulf of Mexico
              where these rivers
                flow into the marine environment, but will
              still be found
              short distances up
                these rivers especially during the change of
              tides. They
              do best in the
                aquarium with about 8 teaspoons of salt per
              U.S. Gallon --
              but will still do
                good at lower levels. The Pleco, on the
              other hand would
              do best at not much
                more than about one Tablespoon (three
              teaspoons) of salt
              per 5 U.S. gallons
                and the Anubias doing as well at around this
              same salt
              level. This equates to
                1.8 teaspoon of salt per U.S. Gallon. While
              not being very
              much more, for
                easier use, you can use two teaspoons of
              salt per gallon
              in maintaining the
                Pleco and Anubias. although it won't be
              near the
              amount of salt Mollies would
                prefer, but it's at least some salt
              content to help
              promote the health of
                these Mollies. I wouldn't consider
              adding very much
              more salt than this,
                though.

              Ray


              In a message dated
              8/21/2017
              9:46:55 A.M. Eastern
                Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              writes:

              Hi,

              Hope
               
              everyone is doing well!

              I
              have mollies, a small plico,
              and Anubias
                Nanas in a tank. How much
              salt can I get away
                with?

              Thanks,

              Noura

              [Non-text portions of this message
                have been removed]


               

               

                 
                   

               
               
                 
               


                  
                   

                  
                 
              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57210 From: sevenspringss Date: 8/25/2017
              Subject: Re: Noura.....Re: [AquaticLife] Brackish Water for Mollies
              Hi Noura,
               
              The issue of her getting thin doesn't sound very good.  By that, I'm assuming she's not eating liked she should, which can be expected when fish are ill.  Good to know you have some fish medications by you.  As for best choices, anything with Oxylinic Acid is good.  Barring that, Oxytetracycline is excellent, provided your pH is not more than 8.0; this medication losses its effect above pH 8.0.  For the same reason, while Tetracycline is very good against Columnaris, it too looses its effect in alkaline water, but above pH 7.5.  Still, not be exactly sure of the nature of the infection, about the best medication you can get for treating against fungus as well as bacteria pathogens-- if you can find it -- is anything with Nitrofurazone in it, and especially this when it's accompanied with Furazolidone.  Here in the States we have a product called Furan II which contains them both, but it's unlikely you have it there.  Still, look for it or anything similar if the ingredients are stated on the container. 
               
              Do a 50% partial water change on the Pleco's tank.  Very easy to keep any salt level constant when doing future PWC's, just by replacing the amount you removed when drawing out the water.  Don't ever put back the full amount of salt required foer the tank, but only what was removed in the water you took out.  If, as an example, you did a 1/3 (33%) PWC, this means you removed 1./3 of the original amount of salt you added.  If you added one tablespoon (three teaspoons) of salt to the 11 Liter tank, you add back one teaspoon of salt when doing a 1/3 PWC; very simple.  Keep us posted on any further developments with the mother Molly and/or medications you need to look for.
               
              Ray     
               
               
               
              In a message dated 8/25/2017 9:43:08 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
               

              Hi Ray,

              Sorry about the confusion J

              I will set up a hospital tank (6 liters) for the Molly today. We do have some fish medications now, locally manufactured so I’m not confident of the quality, but it’s all we have.

              Please let me know whether it is best to get an antibiotic or an anti fungal (or both?). I don’t know what’s available right now, as some varieties go missing for months, or what the active ingredients are. The packages do no always indicate these, they state the medical use (For internal bacterial infection, for example). I have to actually go to the store to know all that. Probably on Sunday.

              If it helps at all to know, she’s getting thinner as well. The others look fine.

              Thank you,

              Noura

              From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
              Sent: 25 آب, 2017 03:10 م
              To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: Noura.....Re: [AquaticLife] Brackish Water for Mollies

               

              Hi Noura,

              Good timing.  I wasn't up on line more than 5 minutes when I saw your message come in for approval.  As for the hardness and these numbers, I had assumed they had to refer to your pH but I understood your water was undoubtedly hard.  I asked only to clarify this for any others -- and thanks.  

              Looks like I misunderstood you said about the shop owner.  When you sent your message to Harry about your not knowing how much salt they had in the fish farm, and continued with the shop owner having no idea either, it looked to me that while the shop owner knew the fish farm has salt in their water, that he just didn't know how much.  Okay, well at least we know that the fish farm may not (or still may have) have salt.     

              Sounds like your mother Molly has a bodily infection, alright, which may be caused by a fungus or more possibly by your brief description, a bacteria.  Sorry to hear about this.  I know fish medications are difficult at best to obtain in Syria, but if anything's available please let me know and I'll suggest a medication of choice.  Otherwise, adding the salt -- at the rate of two tablespoons of salt (not water, as per your typo < g >) per 21 Liters is about the best you could do for it.  Not the best thing for the Pleco, though, and if you have a small spare tank you could transfer the Molly to, I'd advise it.  In this way, you could at least administer a progressive salt treatment, adding one teaspoon per gallon each day -- which should be a detriment to the infection.  My worst fear though, is that it might be Columnaris, since you indicate a thin white coating.  This is not easily treated without the proper medication but we'll take it one step at a time.

              Not likely her giving birth would cause stress enough to promote any such kind of infection, unless she was stressed in some manner previously -- either physically or chemically (as in water chemistry), or even via a wider temperature change than she'd otherwise be expected to tolerate.  You can't add anymore salt to her water as long as the Pleco remains with her. 

              Ray

              In a message dated 8/25/2017 7:37:20 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

               

              Hi Ray,

              Your assumption is correct. The pH is 8 to 8.2, not the hardness. My bad!

              But our tap water is quite hard as well, that’s a well known fact in our area.

              As for your other question regarding the existence of salt in the fish farm, the seller did not imply that. I have just assumed it by noticing the very good health condition of these mollies, somehow I had the impression that mollies do not do so well unless salt was added to their water. That’s why I assumed they were bred in salty water. That’s all.

              If fish breeders are stating that mollies can be kept and bred in freshwater in particular cases, then my assumption holds no ground.

              Anyway, I noticed that one of the mollies (the mother) is not doing well, there’s a thin white coating on her body. She could be stressed because she gave birth on the very night we got her, about ten days ago. I have now added two tablespoons of water to the 21 liters tank, hoping to help her somehow. The pleco seems well and active after 24 hours of adding the salt.

              Best,

              Noura

              From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
              Sent: 25 آب, 2017 05:12 ص
              To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: Noura.....Re: [AquaticLife] Brackish Water for Mollies

               

              Hi Noura,

              One other thing I want to touch on here, just to establish something you've indicated to keep in mind for this thread.  Again, my purpose is not to put your simple request under a magnifying glass but just to show what water these fish were previously in -- for the sake of this thread.  While you've indicated that you're not sure how much salt was used with your fish when they were still in the fish farm, your statement appears to indicate there was some level of salt in the fish farm's water -- maybe even conveyed to you by the fish shop owner, although you hadn't stated that.  It does seem clear though, that the shop owner added input in there being salt in the fish farms water, but had no idea how much.   Still, at least I'm taking this as meaning these fish were raised in some level of (slightly) brackish water.  We can comfortably add this to the thread as general information for others.

              Ray

              In a message dated 8/21/2017 7:52:31 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

               

              Hi Harry,

              I can’t know for sure how much salt they had in the fish farm. The salt free transition stage (at the pet shop) only lasted for a few days. The owner has no idea either.

              I think I will add the salt very gradually up to the recommended level the plecos and Anubias can handle safely.

              Noura

              From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
              Sent: 22 آب, 2017 02:05 ص
              To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Noura.....Re: [AquaticLife] Brackish Water for Mollies

               

              Ray always gives great information. It's like doing to a webinar.

              Just another thought. While mollies like salt if your mollies came from a non-salt environment for example they weren't kept in brackish water before you got them then they probably have been acclimated to fresh water and salt won't be necessary. Which makes it easier on your other fish and plants.

              Harry
              --------------------------------------------
              On Mon, 8/21/17, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

              Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Brackish Water for Mollies
              To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Monday, August 21, 2017, 6:10 PM


               



               


                 
                   
                   
                   



               
              Noura,
               
              Sorry to hear about the turmoil being so close to home;
              stay safe! 
              It's always best to add any salt gradually, like one
              teaspoon per U.S. Gallon
              per day.  BTW, if any of your female Mollies are ever about
              to give birth,
              don't confine them in a breeder trap as you might do for
              Guppies.  It's too
              stressful for them and they may abort prematurely.   

               
              Ray
               
               
              In a message dated 8/21/2017 3:52:14 P.M. Eastern
              Daylight Time,
              AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
               
               
                Thank you very much, Ray, for a detailed and
              comprehensive answer as usual
                J

              Glad to hear you’re
              doing well! As for the turmoil, we recently had
                some in the city, there has been a car bom- bing just
              three days ago, with a
                few losses, unfortunately. The power outages are a little
              better this summer,
                with 12 hours of outages a day. The fish have adapted to
              some extent, it
                seems, just like we are trying to do.

              I will gradually add 2 tsp of
                salt per US gallon, then. The mollies were kept in
              freshwater (zero salt) at
                the pet store, but I imagine they had some salt in the
              fish farm since they
                seem to be in excellent health and breeding like rabbits
              at the shop (well, I
                think that’s not nearly the best comparison :-D ), I
              just don’t know how much
                salt they had before.

              Thanks again.

              Noura

              From:
                AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
              Sent:
              21
                آب, 2017 06:35 م
              To:
              AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re:
                [AquaticLife] Brackish Water for Mollies

              Hi Noura,

              It's so very
                good to hear from you again. As for me, I'm doing
              fairly well; thanks for
                asking. Hope you're doing well also and that the
              turmoil in your country isn't
                near your vicinity. I'm guessing you still need to put
              up with intermittent
                power outages, though.

              Getting to these fish and plants you have, as
                I'm sure you must know, Mollies do especially well
              with an amount of salt in
                their water -- which no doubt is why you asked your
              question about how much
                you can add. Unfortunately, no freshwater catfish can
              tolerate very much of
                it, so you have two types of fish requiring very different
              conditions. In
                general. freshwater plants do not tolerate very much salt
              either, with some
                being able to take more than others. Fortunately, the
              various Anubias are
                tougher plants and can tolerate more than others, but
              still not even near what
                Mollies do best in.

              Mollies in nature are often found in extremely
                brackish water where the mouth of the rivers they live in
              empty into the
                ocean. They can often be found right in the Gulf of Mexico
              where these rivers
                flow into the marine environment, but will still be found
              short distances up
                these rivers especially during the change of tides. They
              do best in the
                aquarium with about 8 teaspoons of salt per U.S. Gallon --
              but will still do
                good at lower levels. The Pleco, on the other hand would
              do best at not much
                more than about one Tablespoon (three teaspoons) of salt
              per 5 U.S. gallons
                and the Anubias doing as well at around this same salt
              level. This equates to
                1.8 teaspoon of salt per U.S. Gallon. While not being very
              much more, for
                easier use, you can use two teaspoons of salt per gallon
              in maintaining the
                Pleco and Anubias. although it won't be near the
              amount of salt Mollies would
                prefer, but it's at least some salt content to help
              promote the health of
                these Mollies. I wouldn't consider adding very much
              more salt than this,
                though.

              Ray

              In a message dated 8/21/2017
              9:46:55 A.M. Eastern
                Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

              Hi,

              Hope
                everyone is doing well!

              I
              have mollies, a small plico, and Anubias
                Nanas in a tank. How much salt can I get away
                with?

              Thanks,

              Noura

              [Non-text portions of this message
                have been removed]


               

               

                 
                   

                 
                 

               
              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57211 From: Cheryl Kautz Date: 8/25/2017
              Subject: Re: Noura...again.....Re: [AquaticLife] Brackish Water for Mollies
              Because I may do believe as others for what they said about the black mollies fish. I was involved with them in my fish forum group. 

              Why then do many people reccommend a brackish tank for Mollies? It is important to know then that marine saltdoes more than simply raise the salinity.The salt doesn't just make theaquarium salty, it also raises the pH and hardness, which is the water chemistrythat they prefer.
              Plain table salt — sodium chloride — (Not with iodine added) can help it reduces the toxicity of nitrite and nitrate. Mollies are sensitive to nitrite and nitrate. In freshwater tanks, they need excellent water quality if they are to do well.
              Marine salt mix contains table salt plus other mineral salts, including salts that raise pH and increase hardness. The addition of marine salt acts as a buffer, stopping any water chemistry changes. Therefore if you are adding a certain amount of salt you are guaranteeing the correct water conditions without any need to mess about with pH buffers or water hardening agents.


              On Fri, 25 Aug 2017 at 8:03 AM, Harry Perry harryfisherman@... [AquaticLife]
              <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
               

              Mollies, on average, life expectancy, is 3 to 5 years. Depending on care, water quality etc.

              This needs to be taken into consideration.

              The type of meds will depend on what your seeing. As to viral or bacterial in nature.

              Harry
              --------------------------------------------
              On Fri, 8/25/17, 'Noura T.' n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

              Subject: RE: Noura.....Re: [AquaticLife] Brackish Water for Mollies
              To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Friday, August 25, 2017, 9:31 AM


               



                


                  
                    
                    
                     Hi Ray,  Sorry about the
              confusion JI will set up a
              hospital tank (6 liters) for the Molly today. We do have
              some fish medications now, locally manufactured so I’m not
              confident of the quality, but it’s all we
              have.Please let me know
              whether it is best to get an antibiotic or an anti fungal
              (or both?). I don’t know what’s available right now, as
              some varieties go missing for months, or what the active
              ingredients are. The packages do no always indicate these,
              they state the medical use (For internal bacterial
              infection, for example). I have to actually go to the store
              to know all that. Probably on Sunday.If it helps at all
              to know, she’s getting thinner as well. The others look
              fine.  Thank
              you,Noura  From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
              Sent: 25 آب, 2017 03:10 م
              To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: Noura.....Re: [AquaticLife]
              Brackish Water for Mollies    Hi
              Noura, Good timing.  I wasn't up on line
              more than 5 minutes when I saw your message come in for
              approval.  As for the hardness and these numbers, I had
              assumed they had to refer to your pH but I understood your
              water was undoubtedly hard.  I asked only to clarify this
              for any others -- and thanks.   Looks like I misunderstood you said
              about the shop owner.  When you sent your message to Harry
              about your not knowing how much salt they had in the fish
              farm, and continued with the shop owner having no idea
              either, it looked to me that while the shop owner knew the
              fish farm has salt in their water, that he just didn't
              know how much.  Okay, well at least we know that the fish
              farm may not (or still may have) have salt. 
                  Sounds like your mother Molly has a
              bodily infection, alright, which may be caused by a fungus
              or more possibly by your brief description, a bacteria. 
              Sorry to hear about this.  I know fish medications are
              difficult at best to obtain in Syria, but if anything's
              available please let me know and I'll suggest a
              medication of choice.  Otherwise, adding the salt -- at the
              rate of two tablespoons of salt (not water, as per your
              typo < g >) per 21 Liters is about the best you could
              do for it.  Not the best thing for the Pleco, though, and
              if you have a small spare tank you could transfer the Molly
              to, I'd advise it.  In this way, you could at least
              administer a progressive salt treatment, adding one teaspoon
              per gallon each day -- which should be a detriment to the
              infection.  My worst fear though, is that it might be
              Columnaris, since you indicate a thin white coating.  This
              is not easily treated without the proper medication but
              we'll take it one step at a time. Not
              likely her giving birth would cause stress enough to promote
              any such kind of infection, unless she was stressed in some
              manner previously -- either physically or chemically (as in
              water chemistry), or even via a wider temperature change
              than she'd otherwise be expected to tolerate.  You
              can't add anymore salt to her water as long as the Pleco
              remains with her.   Ray  In a message dated
              8/25/2017 7:37:20 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              writes:  Hi Ray,Your assumption is
              correct. The pH is 8 to 8.2, not the hardness. My
              bad!But our tap water is
              quite hard as well, that’s a well known fact in our area.
              As for your other
              question regarding the existence of salt in the fish farm,
              the seller did not imply that. I have just assumed it by
              noticing the very good health condition of these mollies,
              somehow I had the impression that mollies do not do so well
              unless salt was added to their water. That’s why I assumed
              they were bred in salty water. That’s all. If fish breeders are
              stating that mollies can be kept and bred in freshwater in
              particular cases, then my assumption holds no ground.
              Anyway, I noticed
              that one of the mollies (the mother) is not doing well,
              there’s a thin white coating on her body. She could be
              stressed because she gave birth on the very night we got
              her, about ten days ago. I have now added two tablespoons of
              water to the 21 liters tank, hoping to help her somehow. The
              pleco seems well and active after 24 hours of adding the
              salt. Best,NouraFrom: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]

              Sent: 25 آب, 2017 05:12 ص
              To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: Noura.....Re: [AquaticLife]
              Brackish Water for Mollies 
              Hi
              Noura,One
              other thing I want to touch on here, just to establish
              something you've indicated to keep in mind for this
              thread.  Again, my purpose is not to put your simple
              request under a magnifying glass but just to show
              what water these fish were previously in -- for the sake of
              this thread.  While you've indicated that you're
              not sure how much salt was used with your fish when they
              were still in the fish farm, your statement appears to
              indicate there was some level of salt in the fish farm's
              water -- maybe even conveyed to you by the fish shop owner,
              although you hadn't stated that.  It does seem clear
              though, that the shop owner added input in there being salt
              in the fish farms water, but had no idea how much. 
               Still, at least I'm taking this as meaning these fish
              were raised in some level of (slightly) brackish water.  We
              can comfortably add this to the thread as general
              information for others.RayIn a message dated
              8/21/2017 7:52:31 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              writes:  Hi
              Harry,I can’t know for
              sure how much salt they had in the fish farm. The salt free
              transition stage (at the pet shop) only lasted for a few
              days. The owner has no idea either. I think I will add
              the salt very gradually up to the recommended level the
              plecos and Anubias can handle safely.NouraFrom: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]

              Sent: 22 آب, 2017 02:05 ص
              To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Noura.....Re: [AquaticLife]
              Brackish Water for Mollies 
              Ray always gives great
              information. It's like doing to a webinar.

              Just another thought. While
              mollies like salt if your mollies came from a non-salt
              environment for example they weren't kept in brackish
              water before you got them then they probably have been
              acclimated to fresh water and salt won't be necessary.
              Which makes it easier on your other fish and plants.

              Harry
              --------------------------------------------
              On Mon, 8/21/17, sevenspringss1@...
              [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
              wrote:

              Subject: Re:
              [AquaticLife] Brackish Water for Mollies
              To:
              AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Monday, August 21, 2017, 6:10 PM


               



               


                 
                   
                   
                   



               
              Noura,
               
              Sorry to hear about the turmoil being so close
              to home;
              stay safe! 
              It's always best to add any salt gradually,
              like one
              teaspoon per U.S. Gallon
              per day.  BTW, if any of your female Mollies
              are ever about
              to give birth,
              don't confine them in a breeder trap as you
              might do for
              Guppies.  It's too
              stressful for them and they may abort
              prematurely.   

               
              Ray
               
               
              In a message dated 8/21/2017 3:52:14 P.M.
              Eastern
              Daylight Time,
              AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              writes:
               
               
                Thank you very much, Ray, for a detailed
              and
              comprehensive answer as usual
                J

              Glad to
              hear you’re
              doing well! As for the
              turmoil, we recently had
                some in the
              city, there has been a car bom- bing just
              three days ago, with a
                few
              losses, unfortunately. The power outages are a little
              better this summer,
                with 12
              hours of outages a day. The fish have adapted to
              some extent, it
                seems, just
              like we are trying to do.

              I
              will gradually add 2 tsp of
                salt per US
              gallon, then. The mollies were kept in
              freshwater (zero salt) at
               
              the pet store, but I imagine they had some salt in the
              fish farm since they
                seem
              to be in excellent health and breeding like rabbits
              at the shop (well, I
                think
              that’s not nearly the best comparison :-D ), I
              just don’t know how much
               
              salt they had before.

              Thanks again.

              Noura

              From:

                AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]

              Sent:
              21
                آب, 2017
              06:35 م
              To:
              AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re:
                [AquaticLife]
              Brackish Water for Mollies

              Hi Noura,

              It's so very
                good to
              hear from you again. As for me, I'm doing
              fairly well; thanks for
               
              asking. Hope you're doing well also and that the
              turmoil in your country isn't
                near your vicinity. I'm guessing you
              still need to put
              up with intermittent
                power outages, though.

              Getting to these fish and plants you have, as

                I'm sure you must know, Mollies do
              especially well
              with an amount of salt in

                their water -- which no doubt is why you
              asked your
              question about how much
                you can add. Unfortunately, no freshwater
              catfish can
              tolerate very much of
                it, so you have two types of fish requiring
              very different
              conditions. In
                general. freshwater plants do not tolerate
              very much salt
              either, with some
                being able to take more than others.
              Fortunately, the
              various Anubias are
                tougher plants and can tolerate more than
              others, but
              still not even near what
                Mollies do best in.

              Mollies in nature are often found in extremely

                brackish water where the mouth of the
              rivers they live in
              empty into the
                ocean. They can often be found right in the
              Gulf of Mexico
              where these rivers
                flow into the marine environment, but will
              still be found
              short distances up
                these rivers especially during the change of
              tides. They
              do best in the
                aquarium with about 8 teaspoons of salt per
              U.S. Gallon --
              but will still do
                good at lower levels. The Pleco, on the
              other hand would
              do best at not much
                more than about one Tablespoon (three
              teaspoons) of salt
              per 5 U.S. gallons
                and the Anubias doing as well at around this
              same salt
              level. This equates to
                1.8 teaspoon of salt per U.S. Gallon. While
              not being very
              much more, for
                easier use, you can use two teaspoons of
              salt per gallon
              in maintaining the
                Pleco and Anubias. although it won't be
              near the
              amount of salt Mollies would
                prefer, but it's at least some salt
              content to help
              promote the health of
                these Mollies. I wouldn't consider
              adding very much
              more salt than this,
                though.

              Ray


              In a message dated
              8/21/2017
              9:46:55 A.M. Eastern
                Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              writes:

              Hi,

              Hope
               
              everyone is doing well!

              I
              have mollies, a small plico,
              and Anubias
                Nanas in a tank. How much
              salt can I get away
                with?

              Thanks,

              Noura

              [Non-text portions of this message
                have been removed]


               

               

                 
                   

               
               
                 
               


                  
                   

                  
                 

              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57212 From: sevenspringss Date: 8/25/2017
              Subject: Re: Noura...again.....Re: [AquaticLife] Brackish Water for Mollies
              Thank you Cheryl (BTW, please don't forget to sign your name to your posts, thanks),
               
              Your input is appreciated and shows you've done some "homework" on these fish.  You may have seen one of my earlier message meant for Noura, in which I recommended either marine salt mix (if she could find it) or to make her own substitute, albeit without all the tiny amounts of trace element.  As I stated sea water is made up of primarily Sodium Chloride (approx, 84%) and Magnesum Sulfate (approx, 14%).  It's this magnesium which makes sea water hard.  The remaining 2% or so include all the trace elements, which offer no benefit to these Mollies.  
               
              While I wouldn't go so far as to say Mollies prefer a brackish marine salt solution (or any salt), it does benefit them.  For those hobbyists thinking that salt addition to their water can be detrimental when table salt is used, only additive-free pure table salt should be used, preferably not those containing Iodine and definitely not those containing an anti-caking ingredient, although they're often included together in many table salt boxes.  While not the best thing you can include in aquarium water,  it's been proven that the amount of iodine used in table salt is not harmful to fish, but the anti-caking ingredients are to be stayed away from.    
               
              You almost got it right when touching on salt and nitrite (and nitrate) toxicity, although it's the ammonia that the salt renders comparatively harmless when added to the water before organic waste products elevate.  If and when fish are subjected to nitrite toxicity -- and more acidic conditions will promote this even at lower values (and with nitrite being much more toxic than ammonia at similar levels) -- Methylene Blue should be used (instead of salt) to combat this toxicity, although the salt may remain in the water (the hobbyist needn't remove it).    
               
              Ray
               
               
               
              In a message dated 8/25/2017 11:00:50 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
               

              Because I may do believe as others for what they said about the black mollies fish. I was involved with them in my fish forum group. 


              Why then do many people reccommend a brackish tank for Mollies? It is important to know then that marine saltdoes more than simply raise the salinity.The salt doesn't just make theaquarium salty, it also raises the pH and hardness, which is the water chemistrythat they prefer.
              Plain table salt — sodium chloride — (Not with iodine added) can help it reduces the toxicity of nitrite and nitrate. Mollies are sensitive to nitrite and nitrate. In freshwater tanks, they need excellent water quality if they are to do well.
              Marine salt mix contains table salt plus other mineral salts, including salts that raise pH and increase hardness. The addition of marine salt acts as a buffer, stopping any water chemistry changes. Therefore if you are adding a certain amount of salt you are guaranteeing the correct water conditions without any need to mess about with pH buffers or water hardening agents.


              On Fri, 25 Aug 2017 at 8:03 AM, Harry Perry harryfisherman@... [AquaticLife]
              <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
               

              Mollies, on average, life expectancy, is 3 to 5 years. Depending on care, water quality etc.

              This needs to be taken into consideration.

              The type of meds will depend on what your seeing. As to viral or bacterial in nature.

              Harry
              --------------------------------------------
              On Fri, 8/25/17, 'Noura T.' n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

              Subject: RE: Noura.....Re: [AquaticLife] Brackish Water for Mollies
              To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Friday, August 25, 2017, 9:31 AM


               



                


                  
                    
                    
                     Hi Ray,  Sorry about the
              confusion JI will set up a
              hospital tank (6 liters) for the Molly today. We do have
              some fish medications now, locally manufactured so I’m not
              confident of the quality, but it’s all we
              have.Please let me know
              whether it is best to get an antibiotic or an anti fungal
              (or both?). I don’t know what’s available right now, as
              some varieties go missing for months, or what the active
              ingredients are. The packages do no always indicate these,
              they state the medical use (For internal bacterial
              infection, for example). I have to actually go to the store
              to know all that. Probably on Sunday.If it helps at all
              to know, she’s getting thinner as well. The others look
              fine.  Thank
              you,Noura  From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
              Sent: 25 آب, 2017 03:10 م
              To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: Noura.....Re: [AquaticLife]
              Brackish Water for Mollies    Hi
              Noura, Good timing.  I wasn't up on line
              more than 5 minutes when I saw your message come in for
              approval.  As for the hardness and these numbers, I had
              assumed they had to refer to your pH but I understood your
              water was undoubtedly hard.  I asked only to clarify this
              for any others -- and thanks.   Looks like I misunderstood you said
              about the shop owner.  When you sent your message to Harry
              about your not knowing how much salt they had in the fish
              farm, and continued with the shop owner having no idea
              either, it looked to me that while the shop owner knew the
              fish farm has salt in their water, that he just didn't
              know how much.  Okay, well at least we know that the fish
              farm may not (or still may have) have salt. 
                  Sounds like your mother Molly has a
              bodily infection, alright, which may be caused by a fungus
              or more possibly by your brief description, a bacteria. 
              Sorry to hear about this.  I know fish medications are
              difficult at best to obtain in Syria, but if anything's
              available please let me know and I'll suggest a
              medication of choice.  Otherwise, adding the salt -- at the
              rate of two tablespoons of salt (not water, as per your
              typo < g >) per 21 Liters is about the best you could
              do for it.  Not the best thing for the Pleco, though, and
              if you have a small spare tank you could transfer the Molly
              to, I'd advise it.  In this way, you could at least
              administer a progressive salt treatment, adding one teaspoon
              per gallon each day -- which should be a detriment to the
              infection.  My worst fear though, is that it might be
              Columnaris, since you indicate a thin white coating.  This
              is not easily treated without the proper medication but
              we'll take it one step at a time. Not
              likely her giving birth would cause stress enough to promote
              any such kind of infection, unless she was stressed in some
              manner previously -- either physically or chemically (as in
              water chemistry), or even via a wider temperature change
              than she'd otherwise be expected to tolerate.  You
              can't add anymore salt to her water as long as the Pleco
              remains with her.   Ray  In a message dated
              8/25/2017 7:37:20 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              writes:  Hi Ray,Your assumption is
              correct. The pH is 8 to 8.2, not the hardness. My
              bad!But our tap water is
              quite hard as well, that’s a well known fact in our area.
              As for your other
              question regarding the existence of salt in the fish farm,
              the seller did not imply that. I have just assumed it by
              noticing the very good health condition of these mollies,
              somehow I had the impression that mollies do not do so well
              unless salt was added to their water. That’s why I assumed
              they were bred in salty water. That’s all. If fish breeders are
              stating that mollies can be kept and bred in freshwater in
              particular cases, then my assumption holds no ground.
              Anyway, I noticed
              that one of the mollies (the mother) is not doing well,
              there’s a thin white coating on her body. She could be
              stressed because she gave birth on the very night we got
              her, about ten days ago. I have now added two tablespoons of
              water to the 21 liters tank, hoping to help her somehow. The
              pleco seems well and active after 24 hours of adding the
              salt. Best,NouraFrom: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]

              Sent: 25 آب, 2017 05:12 ص
              To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: Noura.....Re: [AquaticLife]
              Brackish Water for Mollies 
              Hi
              Noura,One
              other thing I want to touch on here, just to establish
              something you've indicated to keep in mind for this
              thread.  Again, my purpose is not to put your simple
              request under a magnifying glass but just to show
              what water these fish were previously in -- for the sake of
              this thread.  While you've indicated that you're
              not sure how much salt was used with your fish when they
              were still in the fish farm, your statement appears to
              indicate there was some level of salt in the fish farm's
              water -- maybe even conveyed to you by the fish shop owner,
              although you hadn't stated that.  It does seem clear
              though, that the shop owner added input in there being salt
              in the fish farms water, but had no idea how much. 
               Still, at least I'm taking this as meaning these fish
              were raised in some level of (slightly) brackish water.  We
              can comfortably add this to the thread as general
              information for others.RayIn a message dated
              8/21/2017 7:52:31 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              writes:  Hi
              Harry,I can’t know for
              sure how much salt they had in the fish farm. The salt free
              transition stage (at the pet shop) only lasted for a few
              days. The owner has no idea either. I think I will add
              the salt very gradually up to the recommended level the
              plecos and Anubias can handle safely.NouraFrom: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]

              Sent: 22 آب, 2017 02:05 ص
              To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Noura.....Re: [AquaticLife]
              Brackish Water for Mollies 
              Ray always gives great
              information. It's like doing to a webinar.

              Just another thought. While
              mollies like salt if your mollies came from a non-salt
              environment for example they weren't kept in brackish
              water before you got them then they probably have been
              acclimated to fresh water and salt won't be necessary.
              Which makes it easier on your other fish and plants.

              Harry
              --------------------------------------------
              On Mon, 8/21/17, sevenspringss1@...
              [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
              wrote:

              Subject: Re:
              [AquaticLife] Brackish Water for Mollies
              To:
              AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Monday, August 21, 2017, 6:10 PM


               



               


                 
                   
                   
                   



               
              Noura,
               
              Sorry to hear about the turmoil being so close
              to home;
              stay safe! 
              It's always best to add any salt gradually,
              like one
              teaspoon per U.S. Gallon
              per day.  BTW, if any of your female Mollies
              are ever about
              to give birth,
              don't confine them in a breeder trap as you
              might do for
              Guppies.  It's too
              stressful for them and they may abort
              prematurely.   

               
              Ray
               
               
              In a message dated 8/21/2017 3:52:14 P.M.
              Eastern
              Daylight Time,
              AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              writes:
               
               
                Thank you very much, Ray, for a detailed
              and
              comprehensive answer as usual
                J

              Glad to
              hear you’re
              doing well! As for the
              turmoil, we recently had
                some in the
              city, there has been a car bom- bing just
              three days ago, with a
                few
              losses, unfortunately. The power outages are a little
              better this summer,
                with 12
              hours of outages a day. The fish have adapted to
              some extent, it
                seems, just
              like we are trying to do.

              I
              will gradually add 2 tsp of
                salt per US
              gallon, then. The mollies were kept in
              freshwater (zero salt) at
               
              the pet store, but I imagine they had some salt in the
              fish farm since they
                seem
              to be in excellent health and breeding like rabbits
              at the shop (well, I
                think
              that’s not nearly the best comparison :-D ), I
              just don’t know how much
               
              salt they had before.

              Thanks again.

              Noura

              From:

                AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]

              Sent:
              21
                آب, 2017
              06:35 م
              To:
              AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re:
                [AquaticLife]
              Brackish Water for Mollies

              Hi Noura,

              It's so very
                good to
              hear from you again. As for me, I'm doing
              fairly well; thanks for
               
              asking. Hope you're doing well also and that the
              turmoil in your country isn't
                near your vicinity. I'm guessing you
              still need to put
              up with intermittent
                power outages, though.

              Getting to these fish and plants you have, as

                I'm sure you must know, Mollies do
              especially well
              with an amount of salt in

                their water -- which no doubt is why you
              asked your
              question about how much
                you can add. Unfortunately, no freshwater
              catfish can
              tolerate very much of
                it, so you have two types of fish requiring
              very different
              conditions. In
                general. freshwater plants do not tolerate
              very much salt
              either, with some
                being able to take more than others.
              Fortunately, the
              various Anubias are
                tougher plants and can tolerate more than
              others, but
              still not even near what
                Mollies do best in.

              Mollies in nature are often found in extremely

                brackish water where the mouth of the
              rivers they live in
              empty into the
                ocean. They can often be found right in the
              Gulf of Mexico
              where these rivers
                flow into the marine environment, but will
              still be found
              short distances up
                these rivers especially during the change of
              tides. They
              do best in the
                aquarium with about 8 teaspoons of salt per
              U.S. Gallon --
              but will still do
                good at lower levels. The Pleco, on the
              other hand would
              do best at not much
                more than about one Tablespoon (three
              teaspoons) of salt
              per 5 U.S. gallons
                and the Anubias doing as well at around this
              same salt
              level. This equates to
                1.8 teaspoon of salt per U.S. Gallon. While
              not being very
              much more, for
                easier use, you can use two teaspoons of
              salt per gallon
              in maintaining the
                Pleco and Anubias. although it won't be
              near the
              amount of salt Mollies would
                prefer, but it's at least some salt
              content to help
              promote the health of
                these Mollies. I wouldn't consider
              adding very much
              more salt than this,
                though.

              Ray


              In a message dated
              8/21/2017
              9:46:55 A.M. Eastern
                Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              writes:

              Hi,

              Hope
               
              everyone is doing well!

              I
              have mollies, a small plico,
              and Anubias
                Nanas in a tank. How much
              salt can I get away
                with?

              Thanks,

              Noura

              [Non-text portions of this message
                have been removed]


               

               

                 
                   

               
               
                 
               


                  
                   

                  
                 

               
              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57213 From: Noura T. Date: 8/25/2017
              Subject: Re: Noura...again.....Re: [AquaticLife] Brackish Water for Mollies
              Hi Ray,

              I’m using what we call “rock salt”, it’s not refined, doesn’t contain any added iodine, and no anti-caking agent. It’s what is commonly used for pickling.

              Would you recommend adding Mg sulfate as well into this particular tank (taking into consideration the plant and fish varieties that live in it)? Is there anything to gain from it, other than raising the hardness (which we don’t need, considering that our water is naturally hard enough). Do I need the below mentioned buffering effect of magnesium sulfate?

              If yes, I can make a mix and keep it in a container for the mollies tank.



              Thank you,

              Noura



              From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
              Sent: 25 آب, 2017 09:41 م
              To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: Noura...again.....Re: [AquaticLife] Brackish Water for Mollies





              Thank you Cheryl (BTW, please don't forget to sign your name to your posts, thanks),



              Your input is appreciated and shows you've done some "homework" on these fish. You may have seen one of my earlier message meant for Noura, in which I recommended either marine salt mix (if she could find it) or to make her own substitute, albeit without all the tiny amounts of trace element. As I stated sea water is made up of primarily Sodium Chloride (approx, 84%) and Magnesum Sulfate (approx, 14%). It's this magnesium which makes sea water hard. The remaining 2% or so include all the trace elements, which offer no benefit to these Mollies.



              While I wouldn't go so far as to say Mollies prefer a brackish marine salt solution (or any salt), it does benefit them. For those hobbyists thinking that salt addition to their water can be detrimental when table salt is used, only additive-free pure table salt should be used, preferably not those containing Iodine and definitely not those containing an anti-caking ingredient, although they're often included together in many table salt boxes. While not the best thing you can include in aquarium water, it's been proven that the amount of iodine used in table salt is not harmful to fish, but the anti-caking ingredients are to be stayed away from.



              You almost got it right when touching on salt and nitrite (and nitrate) toxicity, although it's the ammonia that the salt renders comparatively harmless when added to the water before organic waste products elevate. If and when fish are subjected to nitrite toxicity -- and more acidic conditions will promote this even at lower values (and with nitrite being much more toxic than ammonia at similar levels) -- Methylene Blue should be used (instead of salt) to combat this toxicity, although the salt may remain in the water (the hobbyist needn't remove it).



              Ray







              In a message dated 8/25/2017 11:00:50 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:



              Because I may do believe as others for what they said about the black mollies fish. I was involved with them in my fish forum group.



              Why then do many people reccommend a brackish tank for Mollies? It is important to know then that <http://rd.bizrate.com/rd?t=http%3A%2F%2Fclickserve.dartsearch.net%2Flink%2Fclick%3Flid%3D43700018284191215%26ds_s_kwgid%3D58700002184335387%26ds_url_v%3D2&mid=55089&cat_id=31000400&atom=10728&prod_id=&oid=5675337455&pos=1&b_id=18&bid_type=10&bamt=2ed49773e33fbc05&cobrand=1&ppr=6dbb2d589ababaa1&rf=af1&af_assettype_id=12&af_creative_id=2973&af_id=615103&af_placement_id=1&dv=e4424f0c67701767543ef30d4d370626> marine saltdoes more than simply raise the salinity.The salt doesn't just make the <http://www.amazon.com/gp/search?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=9325&index=aps&keywords=aquarium&linkCode=ur2> aquarium salty, it also raises the pH and hardness, which is the <https://www.amazon.com/Brightwell-Aquatics-Chemistry-African-Cichlid/dp/B001LUQCU0> water chemistrythat they prefer.
              Plain table salt — sodium chloride — (Not with iodine added) can help it reduces the toxicity of nitrite and nitrate. Mollies are sensitive to nitrite and nitrate. In freshwater tanks, they need excellent water quality if they are to do well.
              <http://rd.bizrate.com/rd?t=http%3A%2F%2Fclickserve.dartsearch.net%2Flink%2Fclick%3Flid%3D43700018284191215%26ds_s_kwgid%3D58700002184335387%26ds_url_v%3D2&mid=55089&cat_id=31000400&atom=10728&prod_id=&oid=5675337455&pos=1&b_id=18&bid_type=10&bamt=2ed49773e33fbc05&cobrand=1&ppr=6dbb2d589ababaa1&rf=af1&af_assettype_id=12&af_creative_id=2973&af_id=615103&af_placement_id=1&dv=e4424f0c67701767543ef30d4d370626> Marine salt mix contains table salt plus other mineral salts, including salts that raise pH and increase hardness. The addition of marine salt acts as a buffer, stopping any <https://www.amazon.com/Brightwell-Aquatics-Chemistry-African-Cichlid/dp/B001LUQCU0> water chemistry changes. Therefore if you are adding a certain amount of salt you are guaranteeing the correct water conditions without any need to mess about with pH buffers or water hardening agents.

              Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android <https://overview.mail.yahoo.com/mobile/?.src=Android>



              On Fri, 25 Aug 2017 at 8:03 AM, Harry Perry harryfisherman@... [AquaticLife]

              <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:



              Mollies, on average, life expectancy, is 3 to 5 years. Depending on care, water quality etc.

              This needs to be taken into consideration.

              The type of meds will depend on what your seeing. As to viral or bacterial in nature.

              Harry
              --------------------------------------------
              On Fri, 8/25/17, 'Noura T.' n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

              Subject: RE: Noura.....Re: [AquaticLife] Brackish Water for Mollies
              To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Friday, August 25, 2017, 9:31 AM












              Hi Ray, Sorry about the
              confusion JI will set up a
              hospital tank (6 liters) for the Molly today. We do have
              some fish medications now, locally manufactured so I’m not
              confident of the quality, but it’s all we
              have.Please let me know
              whether it is best to get an antibiotic or an anti fungal
              (or both?). I don’t know what’s available right now, as
              some varieties go missing for months, or what the active
              ingredients are. The packages do no always indicate these,
              they state the medical use (For internal bacterial
              infection, for example). I have to actually go to the store
              to know all that. Probably on Sunday.If it helps at all
              to know, she’s getting thinner as well. The others look
              fine. Thank
              you,Noura From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
              Sent: 25 آب, 2017 03:10 م
              To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: Noura.....Re: [AquaticLife]
              Brackish Water for Mollies Hi
              Noura, Good timing. I wasn't up on line
              more than 5 minutes when I saw your message come in for
              approval. As for the hardness and these numbers, I had
              assumed they had to refer to your pH but I understood your
              water was undoubtedly hard. I asked only to clarify this
              for any others -- and thanks. Looks like I misunderstood you said
              about the shop owner. When you sent your message to Harry
              about your not knowing how much salt they had in the fish
              farm, and continued with the shop owner having no idea
              either, it looked to me that while the shop owner knew the
              fish farm has salt in their water, that he just didn't
              know how much. Okay, well at least we know that the fish
              farm may not (or still may have) have salt.
              Sounds like your mother Molly has a
              bodily infection, alright, which may be caused by a fungus
              or more possibly by your brief description, a bacteria.
              Sorry to hear about this. I know fish medications are
              difficult at best to obtain in Syria, but if anything's
              available please let me know and I'll suggest a
              medication of choice. Otherwise, adding the salt -- at the
              rate of two tablespoons of salt (not water, as per your
              typo < g >) per 21 Liters is about the best you could
              do for it. Not the best thing for the Pleco, though, and
              if you have a small spare tank you could transfer the Molly
              to, I'd advise it. In this way, you could at least
              administer a progressive salt treatment, adding one teaspoon
              per gallon each day -- which should be a detriment to the
              infection. My worst fear though, is that it might be
              Columnaris, since you indicate a thin white coating. This
              is not easily treated without the proper medication but
              we'll take it one step at a time. Not
              likely her giving birth would cause stress enough to promote
              any such kind of infection, unless she was stressed in some
              manner previously -- either physically or chemically (as in
              water chemistry), or even via a wider temperature change
              than she'd otherwise be expected to tolerate. You
              can't add anymore salt to her water as long as the Pleco
              remains with her. Ray In a message dated
              8/25/2017 7:37:20 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              writes: Hi Ray,Your assumption is
              correct. The pH is 8 to 8.2, not the hardness. My
              bad!But our tap water is
              quite hard as well, that’s a well known fact in our area.
              As for your other
              question regarding the existence of salt in the fish farm,
              the seller did not imply that. I have just assumed it by
              noticing the very good health condition of these mollies,
              somehow I had the impression that mollies do not do so well
              unless salt was added to their water. That’s why I assumed
              they were bred in salty water. That’s all. If fish breeders are
              stating that mollies can be kept and bred in freshwater in
              particular cases, then my assumption holds no ground.
              Anyway, I noticed
              that one of the mollies (the mother) is not doing well,
              there’s a thin white coating on her body. She could be
              stressed because she gave birth on the very night we got
              her, about ten days ago. I have now added two tablespoons of
              water to the 21 liters tank, hoping to help her somehow. The
              pleco seems well and active after 24 hours of adding the
              salt. Best,NouraFrom: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]

              Sent: 25 آب, 2017 05:12 ص
              To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: Noura.....Re: [AquaticLife]
              Brackish Water for Mollies
              Hi
              Noura,One
              other thing I want to touch on here, just to establish
              something you've indicated to keep in mind for this
              thread. Again, my purpose is not to put your simple
              request under a magnifying glass but just to show
              what water these fish were previously in -- for the sake of
              this thread. While you've indicated that you're
              not sure how much salt was used with your fish when they
              were still in the fish farm, your statement appears to
              indicate there was some level of salt in the fish farm's
              water -- maybe even conveyed to you by the fish shop owner,
              although you hadn't stated that. It does seem clear
              though, that the shop owner added input in there being salt
              in the fish farms water, but had no idea how much.
              Still, at least I'm taking this as meaning these fish
              were raised in some level of (slightly) brackish water. We
              can comfortably add this to the thread as general
              information for others.RayIn a message dated
              8/21/2017 7:52:31 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              writes: Hi
              Harry,I can’t know for
              sure how much salt they had in the fish farm. The salt free
              transition stage (at the pet shop) only lasted for a few
              days. The owner has no idea either. I think I will add
              the salt very gradually up to the recommended level the
              plecos and Anubias can handle safely.NouraFrom: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]

              Sent: 22 آب, 2017 02:05 ص
              To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Noura.....Re: [AquaticLife]
              Brackish Water for Mollies
              Ray always gives great
              information. It's like doing to a webinar.

              Just another thought. While
              mollies like salt if your mollies came from a non-salt
              environment for example they weren't kept in brackish
              water before you got them then they probably have been
              acclimated to fresh water and salt won't be necessary.
              Which makes it easier on your other fish and plants.

              Harry
              --------------------------------------------
              On Mon, 8/21/17, sevenspringss1@...
              [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
              wrote:

              Subject: Re:
              [AquaticLife] Brackish Water for Mollies
              To:
              AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Monday, August 21, 2017, 6:10 PM

















              Noura,

              Sorry to hear about the turmoil being so close
              to home;
              stay safe!
              It's always best to add any salt gradually,
              like one
              teaspoon per U.S. Gallon
              per day. BTW, if any of your female Mollies
              are ever about
              to give birth,
              don't confine them in a breeder trap as you
              might do for
              Guppies. It's too
              stressful for them and they may abort
              prematurely.


              Ray


              In a message dated 8/21/2017 3:52:14 P.M.
              Eastern
              Daylight Time,
              AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              writes:


              Thank you very much, Ray, for a detailed
              and
              comprehensive answer as usual
              J

              Glad to
              hear you’re
              doing well! As for the
              turmoil, we recently had
              some in the
              city, there has been a car bom- bing just
              three days ago, with a
              few
              losses, unfortunately. The power outages are a little
              better this summer,
              with 12
              hours of outages a day. The fish have adapted to
              some extent, it
              seems, just
              like we are trying to do.

              I
              will gradually add 2 tsp of
              salt per US
              gallon, then. The mollies were kept in
              freshwater (zero salt) at

              the pet store, but I imagine they had some salt in the
              fish farm since they
              seem
              to be in excellent health and breeding like rabbits
              at the shop (well, I
              think
              that’s not nearly the best comparison :-D ), I
              just don’t know how much

              salt they had before.

              Thanks again.

              Noura

              From:

              AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]

              Sent:
              21
              آب, 2017
              06:35 م
              To:
              AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re:
              [AquaticLife]
              Brackish Water for Mollies

              Hi Noura,

              It's so very
              good to
              hear from you again. As for me, I'm doing
              fairly well; thanks for

              asking. Hope you're doing well also and that the
              turmoil in your country isn't
              near your vicinity. I'm guessing you
              still need to put
              up with intermittent
              power outages, though.

              Getting to these fish and plants you have, as

              I'm sure you must know, Mollies do
              especially well
              with an amount of salt in

              their water -- which no doubt is why you
              asked your
              question about how much
              you can add. Unfortunately, no freshwater
              catfish can
              tolerate very much of
              it, so you have two types of fish requiring
              very different
              conditions. In
              general. freshwater plants do not tolerate
              very much salt
              either, with some
              being able to take more than others.
              Fortunately, the
              various Anubias are
              tougher plants and can tolerate more than
              others, but
              still not even near what
              Mollies do best in.

              Mollies in nature are often found in extremely

              brackish water where the mouth of the
              rivers they live in
              empty into the
              ocean. They can often be found right in the
              Gulf of Mexico
              where these rivers
              flow into the marine environment, but will
              still be found
              short distances up
              these rivers especially during the change of
              tides. They
              do best in the
              aquarium with about 8 teaspoons of salt per
              U.S. Gallon --
              but will still do
              good at lower levels. The Pleco, on the
              other hand would
              do best at not much
              more than about one Tablespoon (three
              teaspoons) of salt
              per 5 U.S. gallons
              and the Anubias doing as well at around this
              same salt
              level. This equates to
              1.8 teaspoon of salt per U.S. Gallon. While
              not being very
              much more, for
              easier use, you can use two teaspoons of
              salt per gallon
              in maintaining the
              Pleco and Anubias. although it won't be
              near the
              amount of salt Mollies would
              prefer, but it's at least some salt
              content to help
              promote the health of
              these Mollies. I wouldn't consider
              adding very much
              more salt than this,
              though.

              Ray


              In a message dated
              8/21/2017
              9:46:55 A.M. Eastern
              Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              writes:

              Hi,

              Hope

              everyone is doing well!

              I
              have mollies, a small plico,
              and Anubias
              Nanas in a tank. How much
              salt can I get away
              with?

              Thanks,

              Noura

              [Non-text portions of this message
              have been removed]



























              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57214 From: Noura T. Date: 8/25/2017
              Subject: Re: Noura...again.....Re: [AquaticLife] Brackish Water for Mollies
              Hi Harry,

              I don’t think she’s too old. She was in a much better health just ten days ago, then declined within a few days.

              She’s a purely black molly, the thin white coating (more grey than white) is visible on her sides and fins, especially the tail, I can only see it if I look from a certain angle against the light. She swims in slightly jerky movements but keeps her horizontal position. Breathing is faster than normal. Eating well, but not sure if it’s the same amount she used to take.

              The white coating does not seem to be ‘peeling off’, it’s doesn’t look ‘fuzzy’ either, so I’m assuming it may not be fungi (?)

              She’s thinner every day.



              Best,

              Noura



              From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
              Sent: 25 آب, 2017 05:00 م
              To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Noura...again.....Re: [AquaticLife] Brackish Water for Mollies





              Mollies, on average, life expectancy, is 3 to 5 years. Depending on care, water quality etc.

              This needs to be taken into consideration.

              The type of meds will depend on what your seeing. As to viral or bacterial in nature.

              Harry
              --------------------------------------------
              On Fri, 8/25/17, 'Noura T.' n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

              Subject: RE: Noura.....Re: [AquaticLife] Brackish Water for Mollies
              To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Friday, August 25, 2017, 9:31 AM












              Hi Ray, Sorry about the
              confusion JI will set up a
              hospital tank (6 liters) for the Molly today. We do have
              some fish medications now, locally manufactured so I’m not
              confident of the quality, but it’s all we
              have.Please let me know
              whether it is best to get an antibiotic or an anti fungal
              (or both?). I don’t know what’s available right now, as
              some varieties go missing for months, or what the active
              ingredients are. The packages do no always indicate these,
              they state the medical use (For internal bacterial
              infection, for example). I have to actually go to the store
              to know all that. Probably on Sunday.If it helps at all
              to know, she’s getting thinner as well. The others look
              fine. Thank
              you,Noura From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
              Sent: 25 آب, 2017 03:10 م
              To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: Noura.....Re: [AquaticLife]
              Brackish Water for Mollies Hi
              Noura, Good timing. I wasn't up on line
              more than 5 minutes when I saw your message come in for
              approval. As for the hardness and these numbers, I had
              assumed they had to refer to your pH but I understood your
              water was undoubtedly hard. I asked only to clarify this
              for any others -- and thanks. Looks like I misunderstood you said
              about the shop owner. When you sent your message to Harry
              about your not knowing how much salt they had in the fish
              farm, and continued with the shop owner having no idea
              either, it looked to me that while the shop owner knew the
              fish farm has salt in their water, that he just didn't
              know how much. Okay, well at least we know that the fish
              farm may not (or still may have) have salt.
              Sounds like your mother Molly has a
              bodily infection, alright, which may be caused by a fungus
              or more possibly by your brief description, a bacteria.
              Sorry to hear about this. I know fish medications are
              difficult at best to obtain in Syria, but if anything's
              available please let me know and I'll suggest a
              medication of choice. Otherwise, adding the salt -- at the
              rate of two tablespoons of salt (not water, as per your
              typo < g >) per 21 Liters is about the best you could
              do for it. Not the best thing for the Pleco, though, and
              if you have a small spare tank you could transfer the Molly
              to, I'd advise it. In this way, you could at least
              administer a progressive salt treatment, adding one teaspoon
              per gallon each day -- which should be a detriment to the
              infection. My worst fear though, is that it might be
              Columnaris, since you indicate a thin white coating. This
              is not easily treated without the proper medication but
              we'll take it one step at a time. Not
              likely her giving birth would cause stress enough to promote
              any such kind of infection, unless she was stressed in some
              manner previously -- either physically or chemically (as in
              water chemistry), or even via a wider temperature change
              than she'd otherwise be expected to tolerate. You
              can't add anymore salt to her water as long as the Pleco
              remains with her. Ray In a message dated
              8/25/2017 7:37:20 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              writes: Hi Ray,Your assumption is
              correct. The pH is 8 to 8.2, not the hardness. My
              bad!But our tap water is
              quite hard as well, that’s a well known fact in our area.
              As for your other
              question regarding the existence of salt in the fish farm,
              the seller did not imply that. I have just assumed it by
              noticing the very good health condition of these mollies,
              somehow I had the impression that mollies do not do so well
              unless salt was added to their water. That’s why I assumed
              they were bred in salty water. That’s all. If fish breeders are
              stating that mollies can be kept and bred in freshwater in
              particular cases, then my assumption holds no ground.
              Anyway, I noticed
              that one of the mollies (the mother) is not doing well,
              there’s a thin white coating on her body. She could be
              stressed because she gave birth on the very night we got
              her, about ten days ago. I have now added two tablespoons of
              water to the 21 liters tank, hoping to help her somehow. The
              pleco seems well and active after 24 hours of adding the
              salt. Best,NouraFrom: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]

              Sent: 25 آب, 2017 05:12 ص
              To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: Noura.....Re: [AquaticLife]
              Brackish Water for Mollies
              Hi
              Noura,One
              other thing I want to touch on here, just to establish
              something you've indicated to keep in mind for this
              thread. Again, my purpose is not to put your simple
              request under a magnifying glass but just to show
              what water these fish were previously in -- for the sake of
              this thread. While you've indicated that you're
              not sure how much salt was used with your fish when they
              were still in the fish farm, your statement appears to
              indicate there was some level of salt in the fish farm's
              water -- maybe even conveyed to you by the fish shop owner,
              although you hadn't stated that. It does seem clear
              though, that the shop owner added input in there being salt
              in the fish farms water, but had no idea how much.
              Still, at least I'm taking this as meaning these fish
              were raised in some level of (slightly) brackish water. We
              can comfortably add this to the thread as general
              information for others.RayIn a message dated
              8/21/2017 7:52:31 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              writes: Hi
              Harry,I can’t know for
              sure how much salt they had in the fish farm. The salt free
              transition stage (at the pet shop) only lasted for a few
              days. The owner has no idea either. I think I will add
              the salt very gradually up to the recommended level the
              plecos and Anubias can handle safely.NouraFrom: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]

              Sent: 22 آب, 2017 02:05 ص
              To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Noura.....Re: [AquaticLife]
              Brackish Water for Mollies
              Ray always gives great
              information. It's like doing to a webinar.

              Just another thought. While
              mollies like salt if your mollies came from a non-salt
              environment for example they weren't kept in brackish
              water before you got them then they probably have been
              acclimated to fresh water and salt won't be necessary.
              Which makes it easier on your other fish and plants.

              Harry
              --------------------------------------------
              On Mon, 8/21/17, sevenspringss1@...
              [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
              wrote:

              Subject: Re:
              [AquaticLife] Brackish Water for Mollies
              To:
              AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Monday, August 21, 2017, 6:10 PM

















              Noura,

              Sorry to hear about the turmoil being so close
              to home;
              stay safe!
              It's always best to add any salt gradually,
              like one
              teaspoon per U.S. Gallon
              per day. BTW, if any of your female Mollies
              are ever about
              to give birth,
              don't confine them in a breeder trap as you
              might do for
              Guppies. It's too
              stressful for them and they may abort
              prematurely.


              Ray


              In a message dated 8/21/2017 3:52:14 P.M.
              Eastern
              Daylight Time,
              AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              writes:


              Thank you very much, Ray, for a detailed
              and
              comprehensive answer as usual
              J

              Glad to
              hear you’re
              doing well! As for the
              turmoil, we recently had
              some in the
              city, there has been a car bom- bing just
              three days ago, with a
              few
              losses, unfortunately. The power outages are a little
              better this summer,
              with 12
              hours of outages a day. The fish have adapted to
              some extent, it
              seems, just
              like we are trying to do.

              I
              will gradually add 2 tsp of
              salt per US
              gallon, then. The mollies were kept in
              freshwater (zero salt) at

              the pet store, but I imagine they had some salt in the
              fish farm since they
              seem
              to be in excellent health and breeding like rabbits
              at the shop (well, I
              think
              that’s not nearly the best comparison :-D ), I
              just don’t know how much

              salt they had before.

              Thanks again.

              Noura

              From:

              AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]

              Sent:
              21
              آب, 2017
              06:35 م
              To:
              AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re:
              [AquaticLife]
              Brackish Water for Mollies

              Hi Noura,

              It's so very
              good to
              hear from you again. As for me, I'm doing
              fairly well; thanks for

              asking. Hope you're doing well also and that the
              turmoil in your country isn't
              near your vicinity. I'm guessing you
              still need to put
              up with intermittent
              power outages, though.

              Getting to these fish and plants you have, as

              I'm sure you must know, Mollies do
              especially well
              with an amount of salt in

              their water -- which no doubt is why you
              asked your
              question about how much
              you can add. Unfortunately, no freshwater
              catfish can
              tolerate very much of
              it, so you have two types of fish requiring
              very different
              conditions. In
              general. freshwater plants do not tolerate
              very much salt
              either, with some
              being able to take more than others.
              Fortunately, the
              various Anubias are
              tougher plants and can tolerate more than
              others, but
              still not even near what
              Mollies do best in.

              Mollies in nature are often found in extremely

              brackish water where the mouth of the
              rivers they live in
              empty into the
              ocean. They can often be found right in the
              Gulf of Mexico
              where these rivers
              flow into the marine environment, but will
              still be found
              short distances up
              these rivers especially during the change of
              tides. They
              do best in the
              aquarium with about 8 teaspoons of salt per
              U.S. Gallon --
              but will still do
              good at lower levels. The Pleco, on the
              other hand would
              do best at not much
              more than about one Tablespoon (three
              teaspoons) of salt
              per 5 U.S. gallons
              and the Anubias doing as well at around this
              same salt
              level. This equates to
              1.8 teaspoon of salt per U.S. Gallon. While
              not being very
              much more, for
              easier use, you can use two teaspoons of
              salt per gallon
              in maintaining the
              Pleco and Anubias. although it won't be
              near the
              amount of salt Mollies would
              prefer, but it's at least some salt
              content to help
              promote the health of
              these Mollies. I wouldn't consider
              adding very much
              more salt than this,
              though.

              Ray


              In a message dated
              8/21/2017
              9:46:55 A.M. Eastern
              Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              writes:

              Hi,

              Hope

              everyone is doing well!

              I
              have mollies, a small plico,
              and Anubias
              Nanas in a tank. How much
              salt can I get away
              with?

              Thanks,

              Noura

              [Non-text portions of this message
              have been removed]

























              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57215 From: Harry Perry Date: 8/25/2017
              Subject: Noura go here.....Re: [AquaticLife] Brackish Water for Mollies
              This is a fish diagnostic site....

              http://www.fishyportal.com/diag/

              This is a site dealing with gray slime disease

              https://www.petcha.com/aquarium-slime-disease/

              There are meds indicated, also adding salt is indicated

              For more just Google Black Molly Slim Disease. That's what everybody else is doing.

              In my medicine cabinet T.C. Tetracycline is recommended for body slime.

              Harry
              --------------------------------------------
              On Fri, 8/25/17, 'Noura T.' n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

              Subject: RE: Noura...again.....Re: [AquaticLife] Brackish Water for Mollies
              To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Friday, August 25, 2017, 6:23 PM


               



                


                  
                    
                    
                     Hi Harry,



              I don’t think she’s too old. She was in a much better
              health just ten days ago, then declined within a few
              days.



              She’s a purely black molly, the thin white coating (more
              grey than white) is visible on her sides and fins,
              especially the tail, I can only see it if I look from a
              certain angle against the light. She swims in slightly jerky
              movements but keeps her horizontal position. Breathing is
              faster than normal. Eating well, but not sure if it’s the
              same amount she used to take.



              The white coating does not seem to be ‘peeling off’,
              it’s doesn’t look ‘fuzzy’ either, so I’m assuming
              it may not be fungi (?)



              She’s thinner every day.



              Best,



              Noura



              From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]

              Sent: 25 آب, 2017 05:00 م

              To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com

              Subject: Noura...again.....Re: [AquaticLife] Brackish Water
              for Mollies



              Mollies, on average, life expectancy, is 3 to 5 years.
              Depending on care, water quality etc.



              This needs to be taken into consideration.



              The type of meds will depend on what your seeing. As to
              viral or bacterial in nature.



              Harry
              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57216 From: sevenspringss Date: 8/25/2017
              Subject: Re: Noura...again.....Re: [AquaticLife] Brackish Water for Mollies
              Hi Noura,
               
              Rock Salt is alright to use.  As your water is already hard, there's nothing to gain by adding Magnesium Sulfate; you don't need to add it, except that it's a more natural salts combination as found in nature (in the oceans).  Still, since your water is already quite hard you don't need this additional hardening effect.  It's better you asked, though, unless you were inquiring only for the 6 Liter tank (in which case, go with it).   This leads to a question I have, however; do you have a water hardness test kit?  If not, it's of no concern but it would provide a more accurate picture of this parameter of your water chemistry.  
               
              Ray
               
               
               
              In a message dated 8/25/2017 6:20:03 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
               

              Hi Ray,

              I’m using what we call “rock salt”, it’s not refined, doesn’t contain any added iodine, and no anti-caking agent. It’s what is commonly used for pickling.

              Would you recommend adding Mg sulfate as well into this particular tank (taking into consideration the plant and fish varieties that live in it)? Is there anything to gain from it, other than raising the hardness (which we don’t need, considering that our water is naturally hard enough). Do I need the below mentioned buffering effect of magnesium sulfate?

              If yes, I can make a mix and keep it in a container for the mollies tank.

              Thank you,

              Noura

              From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
              Sent: 25 آب, 2017 09:41 م
              To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: Noura...again.....Re: [AquaticLife] Brackish Water for Mollies

              Thank you Cheryl (BTW, please don't forget to sign your name to your posts, thanks),

              Your input is appreciated and shows you've done some "homework" on these fish. You may have seen one of my earlier message meant for Noura, in which I recommended either marine salt mix (if she could find it) or to make her own substitute, albeit without all the tiny amounts of trace element. As I stated sea water is made up of primarily Sodium Chloride (approx, 84%) and Magnesum Sulfate (approx, 14%). It's this magnesium which makes sea water hard. The remaining 2% or so include all the trace elements, which offer no benefit to these Mollies.

              While I wouldn't go so far as to say Mollies prefer a brackish marine salt solution (or any salt), it does benefit them. For those hobbyists thinking that salt addition to their water can be detrimental when table salt is used, only additive-free pure table salt should be used, preferably not those containing Iodine and definitely not those containing an anti-caking ingredient, although they're often included together in many table salt boxes. While not the best thing you can include in aquarium water, it's been proven that the amount of iodine used in table salt is not harmful to fish, but the anti-caking ingredients are to be stayed away from.

              You almost got it right when touching on salt and nitrite (and nitrate) toxicity, although it's the ammonia that the salt renders comparatively harmless when added to the water before organic waste products elevate. If and when fish are subjected to nitrite toxicity -- and more acidic conditions will promote this even at lower values (and with nitrite being much more toxic than ammonia at similar levels) -- Methylene Blue should be used (instead of salt) to combat this toxicity, although the salt may remain in the water (the hobbyist needn't remove it).

              Ray

              In a message dated 8/25/2017 11:00:50 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:

              Because I may do believe as others for what they said about the black mollies fish. I was involved with them in my fish forum group.

              Why then do many people reccommend a brackish tank for Mollies? It is important to know then that <http://rd.bizrate.com/rd?t=http%3A%2F%2Fclickserve.dartsearch.net%2Flink%2Fclick%3Flid%3D43700018284191215%26ds_s_kwgid%3D58700002184335387%26ds_url_v%3D2&mid=55089&cat_id=31000400&atom=10728&prod_id=&oid=5675337455&pos=1&b_id=18&bid_type=10&bamt=2ed49773e33fbc05&cobrand=1&ppr=6dbb2d589ababaa1&rf=af1&af_assettype_id=12&af_creative_id=2973&af_id=615103&af_placement_id=1&dv=e4424f0c67701767543ef30d4d370626> marine saltdoes more than simply raise the salinity.The salt doesn't just make the <http://www.amazon.com/gp/search?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=9325&index=aps&keywords=aquarium&linkCode=ur2> aquarium salty, it also raises the pH and hardness, which is the <https://www.amazon.com/Brightwell-Aquatics-Chemistry-African-Cichlid/dp/B001LUQCU0> water chemistrythat they prefer.
              Plain table salt — sodium chloride — (Not with iodine added) can help it reduces the toxicity of nitrite and nitrate. Mollies are sensitive to nitrite and nitrate. In freshwater tanks, they need excellent water quality if they are to do well.
              <http://rd.bizrate.com/rd?t=http%3A%2F%2Fclickserve.dartsearch.net%2Flink%2Fclick%3Flid%3D43700018284191215%26ds_s_kwgid%3D58700002184335387%26ds_url_v%3D2&mid=55089&cat_id=31000400&atom=10728&prod_id=&oid=5675337455&pos=1&b_id=18&bid_type=10&bamt=2ed49773e33fbc05&cobrand=1&ppr=6dbb2d589ababaa1&rf=af1&af_assettype_id=12&af_creative_id=2973&af_id=615103&af_placement_id=1&dv=e4424f0c67701767543ef30d4d370626> Marine salt mix contains table salt plus other mineral salts, including salts that raise pH and increase hardness. The addition of marine salt acts as a buffer, stopping any <https://www.amazon.com/Brightwell-Aquatics-Chemistry-African-Cichlid/dp/B001LUQCU0> water chemistry changes. Therefore if you are adding a certain amount of salt you are guaranteeing the correct water conditions without any need to mess about with pH buffers or water hardening agents.

              Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android <https://overview.mail.yahoo.com/mobile/?.src=Android>

              On Fri, 25 Aug 2017 at 8:03 AM, Harry Perry harryfisherman@... [AquaticLife]

              <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

              Mollies, on average, life expectancy, is 3 to 5 years. Depending on care, water quality etc.

              This needs to be taken into consideration.

              The type of meds will depend on what your seeing. As to viral or bacterial in nature.

              Harry
              --------------------------------------------
              On Fri, 8/25/17, 'Noura T.' n-ocean@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

              Subject: RE: Noura.....Re: [AquaticLife] Brackish Water for Mollies
              To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Friday, August 25, 2017, 9:31 AM

              Hi Ray, Sorry about the
              confusion JI will set up a
              hospital tank (6 liters) for the Molly today. We do have
              some fish medications now, locally manufactured so I’m not
              confident of the quality, but it’s all we
              have.Please let me know
              whether it is best to get an antibiotic or an anti fungal
              (or both?). I don’t know what’s available right now, as
              some varieties go missing for months, or what the active
              ingredients are. The packages do no always indicate these,
              they state the medical use (For internal bacterial
              infection, for example). I have to actually go to the store
              to know all that. Probably on Sunday.If it helps at all
              to know, she’s getting thinner as well. The others look
              fine. Thank
              you,Noura From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]
              Sent: 25 آب, 2017 03:10 م
              To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: Noura.....Re: [AquaticLife]
              Brackish Water for Mollies Hi
              Noura, Good timing. I wasn't up on line
              more than 5 minutes when I saw your message come in for
              approval. As for the hardness and these numbers, I had
              assumed they had to refer to your pH but I understood your
              water was undoubtedly hard. I asked only to clarify this
              for any others -- and thanks. Looks like I misunderstood you said
              about the shop owner. When you sent your message to Harry
              about your not knowing how much salt they had in the fish
              farm, and continued with the shop owner having no idea
              either, it looked to me that while the shop owner knew the
              fish farm has salt in their water, that he just didn't
              know how much. Okay, well at least we know that the fish
              farm may not (or still may have) have salt.
              Sounds like your mother Molly has a
              bodily infection, alright, which may be caused by a fungus
              or more possibly by your brief description, a bacteria.
              Sorry to hear about this. I know fish medications are
              difficult at best to obtain in Syria, but if anything's
              available please let me know and I'll suggest a
              medication of choice. Otherwise, adding the salt -- at the
              rate of two tablespoons of salt (not water, as per your
              typo < g >) per 21 Liters is about the best you could
              do for it. Not the best thing for the Pleco, though, and
              if you have a small spare tank you could transfer the Molly
              to, I'd advise it. In this way, you could at least
              administer a progressive salt treatment, adding one teaspoon
              per gallon each day -- which should be a detriment to the
              infection. My worst fear though, is that it might be
              Columnaris, since you indicate a thin white coating. This
              is not easily treated without the proper medication but
              we'll take it one step at a time. Not
              likely her giving birth would cause stress enough to promote
              any such kind of infection, unless she was stressed in some
              manner previously -- either physically or chemically (as in
              water chemistry), or even via a wider temperature change
              than she'd otherwise be expected to tolerate. You
              can't add anymore salt to her water as long as the Pleco
              remains with her. Ray In a message dated
              8/25/2017 7:37:20 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              writes: Hi Ray,Your assumption is
              correct. The pH is 8 to 8.2, not the hardness. My
              bad!But our tap water is
              quite hard as well, that’s a well known fact in our area.
              As for your other
              question regarding the existence of salt in the fish farm,
              the seller did not imply that. I have just assumed it by
              noticing the very good health condition of these mollies,
              somehow I had the impression that mollies do not do so well
              unless salt was added to their water. That’s why I assumed
              they were bred in salty water. That’s all. If fish breeders are
              stating that mollies can be kept and bred in freshwater in
              particular cases, then my assumption holds no ground.
              Anyway, I noticed
              that one of the mollies (the mother) is not doing well,
              there’s a thin white coating on her body. She could be
              stressed because she gave birth on the very night we got
              her, about ten days ago. I have now added two tablespoons of
              water to the 21 liters tank, hoping to help her somehow. The
              pleco seems well and active after 24 hours of adding the
              salt. Best,NouraFrom: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]

              Sent: 25 آب, 2017 05:12 ص
              To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: Noura.....Re: [AquaticLife]
              Brackish Water for Mollies
              Hi
              Noura,One
              other thing I want to touch on here, just to establish
              something you've indicated to keep in mind for this
              thread. Again, my purpose is not to put your simple
              request under a magnifying glass but just to show
              what water these fish were previously in -- for the sake of
              this thread. While you've indicated that you're
              not sure how much salt was used with your fish when they
              were still in the fish farm, your statement appears to
              indicate there was some level of salt in the fish farm's
              water -- maybe even conveyed to you by the fish shop owner,
              although you hadn't stated that. It does seem clear
              though, that the shop owner added input in there being salt
              in the fish farms water, but had no idea how much.
              Still, at least I'm taking this as meaning these fish
              were raised in some level of (slightly) brackish water. We
              can comfortably add this to the thread as general
              information for others.RayIn a message dated
              8/21/2017 7:52:31 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              writes: Hi
              Harry,I can’t know for
              sure how much salt they had in the fish farm. The salt free
              transition stage (at the pet shop) only lasted for a few
              days. The owner has no idea either. I think I will add
              the salt very gradually up to the recommended level the
              plecos and Anubias can handle safely.NouraFrom: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]

              Sent: 22 آب, 2017 02:05 ص
              To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Noura.....Re: [AquaticLife]
              Brackish Water for Mollies
              Ray always gives great
              information. It's like doing to a webinar.

              Just another thought. While
              mollies like salt if your mollies came from a non-salt
              environment for example they weren't kept in brackish
              water before you got them then they probably have been
              acclimated to fresh water and salt won't be necessary.
              Which makes it easier on your other fish and plants.

              Harry
              --------------------------------------------
              On Mon, 8/21/17, sevenspringss1@...
              [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
              wrote:

              Subject: Re:
              [AquaticLife] Brackish Water for Mollies
              To:
              AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Monday, August 21, 2017, 6:10 PM

              Noura,

              Sorry to hear about the turmoil being so close
              to home;
              stay safe!
              It's always best to add any salt gradually,
              like one
              teaspoon per U.S. Gallon
              per day. BTW, if any of your female Mollies
              are ever about
              to give birth,
              don't confine them in a breeder trap as you
              might do for
              Guppies. It's too
              stressful for them and they may abort
              prematurely.

              Ray


              In a message dated 8/21/2017 3:52:14 P.M.
              Eastern
              Daylight Time,
              AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              writes:


              Thank you very much, Ray, for a detailed
              and
              comprehensive answer as usual
              J

              Glad to
              hear you’re
              doing well! As for the
              turmoil, we recently had
              some in the
              city, there has been a car bom- bing just
              three days ago, with a
              few
              losses, unfortunately. The power outages are a little
              better this summer,
              with 12
              hours of outages a day. The fish have adapted to
              some extent, it
              seems, just
              like we are trying to do.

              I
              will gradually add 2 tsp of
              salt per US
              gallon, then. The mollies were kept in
              freshwater (zero salt) at

              the pet store, but I imagine they had some salt in the
              fish farm since they
              seem
              to be in excellent health and breeding like rabbits
              at the shop (well, I
              think
              that’s not nearly the best comparison :-D ), I
              just don’t know how much

              salt they had before.

              Thanks again.

              Noura

              From:

              AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com]

              Sent:
              21
              آب, 2017
              06:35 م
              To:
              AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re:
              [AquaticLife]
              Brackish Water for Mollies

              Hi Noura,

              It's so very
              good to
              hear from you again. As for me, I'm doing
              fairly well; thanks for

              asking. Hope you're doing well also and that the
              turmoil in your country isn't
              near your vicinity. I'm guessing you
              still need to put
              up with intermittent
              power outages, though.

              Getting to these fish and plants you have, as

              I'm sure you must know, Mollies do
              especially well
              with an amount of salt in

              their water -- which no doubt is why you
              asked your
              question about how much
              you can add. Unfortunately, no freshwater
              catfish can
              tolerate very much of
              it, so you have two types of fish requiring
              very different
              conditions. In
              general. freshwater plants do not tolerate
              very much salt
              either, with some
              being able to take more than others.
              Fortunately, the
              various Anubias are
              tougher plants and can tolerate more than
              others, but
              still not even near what
              Mollies do best in.

              Mollies in nature are often found in extremely

              brackish water where the mouth of the
              rivers they live in
              empty into the
              ocean. They can often be found right in the
              Gulf of Mexico
              where these rivers
              flow into the marine environment, but will
              still be found
              short distances up
              these rivers especially during the change of
              tides. They
              do best in the
              aquarium with about 8 teaspoons of salt per
              U.S. Gallon --
              but will still do
              good at lower levels. The Pleco, on the
              other hand would
              do best at not much
              more than about one Tablespoon (three
              teaspoons) of salt
              per 5 U.S. gallons
              and the Anubias doing as well at around this
              same salt
              level. This equates to
              1.8 teaspoon of salt per U.S. Gallon. While
              not being very
              much more, for
              easier use, you can use two teaspoons of
              salt per gallon
              in maintaining the
              Pleco and Anubias. although it won't be
              near the
              amount of salt Mollies would
              prefer, but it's at least some salt
              content to help
              promote the health of
              these Mollies. I wouldn't consider
              adding very much
              more salt than this,
              though.

              Ray

              In a message dated
              8/21/2017
              9:46:55 A.M. Eastern
              Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              writes:

              Hi,

              Hope

              everyone is doing well!

              I
              have mollies, a small plico,
              and Anubias
              Nanas in a tank. How much
              salt can I get away
              with?

              Thanks,

              Noura

              [Non-text portions of this message
              have been removed]

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

               
              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57217 From: amphibian_ca Date: 8/25/2017
              Subject: Re: Brackish Water for Mollies
              I am not a new member, I have been a member here for many years.  I receive a daily summary email of posts.  There have not been many over the past few months...but this week there have, and the issue of mollies and salt came up so I posted.  Nothing more to say on this.
              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57218 From: amphibian_ca Date: 8/25/2017
              Subject: Re: Brackish Water for Mollies
              As I said in my previous post to your prior post, the references in my article are trained experienced ichthyologists, not your experimental views or mine for that matter.  No one with a concern for their fish would ignore these people.  This is a scientific hobby.

              This is not a thriving forum, for reasons that are obvious here.  I won't bother you with accurate science again when it isn't wanted.

              B.


              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57219 From: amphibian_ca Date: 8/25/2017
              Subject: Re: Noura.....Re: [AquaticLife] Brackish Water for Mollies
              Several errors in your thinking here, no point in arguing.  For one thing, the mollies purchased from stores will be commercially raised in freshwater, that is a fact.  And salt has detrimental effect on other fish, like the pleco mentioned, and you are incorrect in thinking otherwise.  If you took the time to check my article, you would find it is not my views, but the views of trained ichthyologists and biologists.  Ignoring that is foolish and not fair to the fish.  No one's experience means accuracy 100%.  I have ichthyological research to fall back on and as I am in agreement with such people, nothing more need be said.

              You can remove me as a member.  Another member left for similar reasons.

              Cheers,
              Byron.
              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57220 From: Angela Cancilla Herschel Date: 11/21/2017
              Subject: Female Betta jumps through hoops
              Those of us who study behavior and learning and train all different species with the science of positive reinforcement (like this) ...have long known just how smart (and conscious aware)most species really are


              Female Betta jumps through hoops


              Ciao, Angela Cancilla Herschel,   CPBC ,
              Member : IAATE  -  IAABC - WPT
              Southern California
               

              Being Kind is more important ...than being important. ~
              California Wildlife Center, volunteer  ~

              www.cawildlife.org

              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57221 From: LarryB Date: 11/21/2017
              Subject: Re: Female Betta jumps through hoops
              On 11/21/2017 02:18 PM, Angela Cancilla Herschel
              angelasfeathers@... [AquaticLife] wrote:
              > Those of us who study behavior and learning and train all different
              > species with the science of positive reinforcement (like this) ...have
              > long known just how smart (and conscious aware)most species really are
              >
              >
              > Female Betta jumps through hoops

              Many years ago I had a male betta in a 10 gallon tank with a submerged
              filter. Every time I changed the water, he would patiently wait nearby
              till there was only 1/2 inch or less of water covering the filter. At
              that point the output of the filter was dragging the tank water across
              the top of the filter. He would "surf" across the filter, then quickly
              circle back and do it again, until the filter top was high and dry.

              No training involved, he did it on his own. I sort of wondered if a
              very sensitive microphone would have picked up his "whee" every pass :-).

              I think I posted about this a few years back, so my apologies to those
              who've heard it before.

              P.S. I'm still fishless - haven't figured out my water problem yet,
              even with the water company helping.
              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57222 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 11/21/2017
              Subject: Re: Female Betta jumps through hoops

              Hi Larry,

               It must have been more than a few years back as I don't remember hearing about it before. I love hearing stories like this, it shows how intelligent & fun loving fish really are.  How long have you been fishless & what happened with your water?

              One of my friends had a Goldfish that would demand attention by constantly tapping the thermometer against the glass until someone came over to entertain him. My Goldfish let me stroke them when I'm working on the tank, one of them even lets me lift her half out of the water so she slides on her side across my hand, she cannot get enough of this game & will come up & nibble at my hand until I pick her up again. She would do this all night if she had her way.

               John

              On 22 November 2017 at 00:46 "LarryB labl02@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

               



              On 11/21/2017 02:18 PM, Angela Cancilla Herschel
              angelasfeathers@... [AquaticLife] wrote:
              > Those of us who study behavior and learning and train all different
              > species with the science of positive reinforcement (like this) ...have
              > long known just how smart (and conscious aware)most species really are
              >
              >
              > Female Betta jumps through hoops

              Many years ago I had a male betta in a 10 gallon tank with a submerged
              filter. Every time I changed the water, he would patiently wait nearby
              till there was only 1/2 inch or less of water covering the filter. At
              that point the output of the filter was dragging the tank water across
              the top of the filter. He would "surf" across the filter, then quickly
              circle back and do it again, until the filter top was high and dry.

              No training involved, he did it on his own. I sort of wondered if a
              very sensitive microphone would have picked up his "whee" every pass :-).

              I think I posted about this a few years back, so my apologies to those
              who've heard it before.

              P.S. I'm still fishless - haven't figured out my water problem yet,
              even with the water company helping.


               


               

              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57223 From: sevenspringss Date: 11/22/2017
              Subject: Re: Female Betta jumps through hoops
              Hi Larry,
               
              Good to hear from you.  On this subject of fish consciousness and intelligence, while I haven't seen it written that they are self-aware -- even as seeing themselves in a mirror (and how many Betta fanciers are there who haven't put one of these instruments up to their charge's container, with the expected results?) -- it can become quite enlightening to see some their out-of-the-norm antics.  Some years back, I've had discussions with the late Dr. George Barlow (a then specialist on Cichlid behavior) on this very topic.  It can be a learning experience for any of us to observe the extent fishes will go to, to help satisfy their needs other than those met during more ordinary everyday "fishy" circumstances. 
               
              I recall reading Dr. William T. Innes' relating how Oscars (and Jack Dempey's) have been taught to progressively (in ever increasing distances) jump clear of the water to grasp a piece of food from its owners fingers.  Additionally, fish have been trained to jump through hoops held just above the water surface, as Angela relates -- and possibly to some small heights above the surface.  Presently, I have a rather large Central America Cichlid (Paratheraps [Vieja] zonatus) going on 16" TL as the sole resident of a 100 gallon tank.  Grew him from an egg from a spawning of his parents.  Across the isle from him, there's a tank of several Madagascar Cichlids (Paratilapia polleni) which, while not making any indication of generating noises at the surface when eating as a way to purposely get me to feed them, they no less do so as a consequence of gulping freeze dried plankton from the surface after being fed this food.  The P. zonatus apparently picked up on this quite audible sound recently, and now mimics a loud sound of his own when spotting me before I feed him in the morning, when he generates a similarily loud noise by gulping at the surface where it meets the front glass -- until I feed him -- seeming as an obvious behavior to ensure getting me to feed him - not wanting to be ignored - and wanting to be fed ASAP.  Now, to satisfy his "hunger" (and he's far from starving < g >) I feed him first before feeding the P. polleni so as not to hear his attention-getting noise -- and he has desisted this behavior for the most part while busily chomping down his pellets.  In some ways, our fishes can train us, although it's only our response that may enable this! 
               
              I don't remember reading about your surfing Betta either, and I believe I probably would have if I saw it as it's seems extremely entertaining.  On your water problem, I had assumed it was resolved, probably because the thread no longer continued.  I do remember that though -- quite vividly.  Sure hope your water company can come up with a solution for you.  In the meantime perhaps you may want to use bottled water for a small tank housing another Betta again, not requiring large amounts of it, as a means of getting back into fishkeeping.
               
              Ray
                      
               
              In a message dated 11/21/2017 8:20:18 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
               



              On 11/21/2017 02:18 PM, Angela Cancilla Herschel
              angelasfeathers@... [AquaticLife] wrote:
              > Those of us who study behavior and learning and train all different
              > species with the science of positive reinforcement (like this) ...have
              > long known just how smart (and conscious aware)most species really are
              >
              >
              > Female Betta jumps through hoops

              Many years ago I had a male betta in a 10 gallon tank with a submerged
              filter. Every time I changed the water, he would patiently wait nearby
              till there was only 1/2 inch or less of water covering the filter. At
              that point the output of the filter was dragging the tank water across
              the top of the filter. He would "surf" across the filter, then quickly
              circle back and do it again, until the filter top was high and dry.

              No training involved, he did it on his own. I sort of wondered if a
              very sensitive microphone would have picked up his "whee" every pass :-).

              I think I posted about this a few years back, so my apologies to those
              who've heard it before.

              P.S. I'm still fishless - haven't figured out my water problem yet,
              even with the water company helping.

               
              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57224 From: LarryB Date: 11/22/2017
              Subject: Re: Female Betta jumps through hoops
              On 11/21/2017 06:01 PM, SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@...
              [AquaticLife] wrote:
              > It must have been more than a few years back as I don't remember
              > hearing about it before. I love hearing stories like this, it shows how
              > intelligent & fun loving fish really are. How long have you been
              > fishless & what happened with your water?

              We moved 5 years ago. Our new house, like our old one, got water
              directly from an underground aquifer with no treatment needed. Moved a
              40 gallon and a 30 gallon with rainbowfish and corys, plus live plants.
              Even bred and sold a few dwarf neon rainbowfish. No problem with the move.

              Two years ago, the water company had to start using chlorine. I've
              always used a water conditioner so didn't expect any problems. But both
              fish and plants started dying. At first I thought it was just old tank
              syndrome, but nothing I did seemed to help. And I did a lot!

              The only conclusion I reached is that there's some contaminant that's
              coming in with the chemical used for chlorination that isn't handled by
              any of the water conditioners I've tried, even at double doses.

              I can't afford a comprehensive water test, they're a couple hundred
              dollars or more. Same thing for a reverse osmosis setup. We're retired
              on a fixed income.

              A carbon filter does let the fish live for a week or two instead of a
              day or two, so I'm pretty sure it's the water.

              I have other hobbies as well as the normal home maintenance stuff to
              deal with, so I've been letting this one slide. Maybe this winter I can
              do some more research.
              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57225 From: sevenspringss Date: 11/22/2017
              Subject: Re: Female Betta jumps through hoops
              That's a rough deal, having to face getting a water supply contaminated by something unexplained, that you've found to kill your fish and plants.  Got to make you wonder how good it is for you!  One thing comes to mind that not all aquarium water conditioners treat for, and that's heavy metals, but you probably already thought of that and/or used a conditioner that neutralized heavy metals.  I don't know if all water companies are required to send their customers an annual water report listing every element/contaminant in their supply, although many are (and do).  You may want to look into whether yours has such a report available. 
               
              While filter carbon will remove impurities for a short while, it can get expensive.  If you can find a supplier of activated charcoal in bulk, you might consider this for the filter as it does just as good of a job and is rechargeable by rinsing and baking it.  I know what you mean about having your water tested by a lab; it can easily cost up to $500 or $600, at least in my area.  If you live in an agricultural area, the contaminants may just be fertilizer run-off seeping into the ground water.  Could be heavy in phosphates, phosphorus or ammonia.
               
              Ray       
               
               
              In a message dated 11/22/2017 11:57:55 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
               



              On 11/21/2017 06:01 PM, SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@...
              [AquaticLife] wrote:
              > It must have been more than a few years back as I don't remember
              > hearing about it before. I love hearing stories like this, it shows how
              > intelligent & fun loving fish really are. How long have you been
              > fishless & what happened with your water?

              We moved 5 years ago. Our new house, like our old one, got water
              directly from an underground aquifer with no treatment needed. Moved a
              40 gallon and a 30 gallon with rainbowfish and corys, plus live plants.
              Even bred and sold a few dwarf neon rainbowfish. No problem with the move.

              Two years ago, the water company had to start using chlorine. I've
              always used a water conditioner so didn't expect any problems. But both
              fish and plants started dying. At first I thought it was just old tank
              syndrome, but nothing I did seemed to help. And I did a lot!

              The only conclusion I reached is that there's some contaminant that's
              coming in with the chemical used for chlorination that isn't handled by
              any of the water conditioners I've tried, even at double doses.

              I can't afford a comprehensive water test, they're a couple hundred
              dollars or more. Same thing for a reverse osmosis setup. We're retired
              on a fixed income.

              A carbon filter does let the fish live for a week or two instead of a
              day or two, so I'm pretty sure it's the water.

              I have other hobbies as well as the normal home maintenance stuff to
              deal with, so I've been letting this one slide. Maybe this winter I can
              do some more research.

               
              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57226 From: LarryB Date: 11/23/2017
              Subject: Re: Female Betta jumps through hoops
              On 11/22/2017 10:36 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] wrote:
              > I don't know if all water companies are required to send their customers
              > an annual water report listing every element/contaminant in their
              > supply, although many are (and do). You may want to look into whether
              > yours has such a report available.

              Yes they do, and yes I have it. The problem is that that test is done
              at the wellhead *before* the chlorinator is added. IOW, the same water
              that always worked.

              I suppose it could have changed at the same time chlorination began, but
              that'd be quite a coincidence.

              BTW, the "before" numbers look pretty good. Most of the tested for
              items come up as "none detected" and the four organics that do, show a
              few micrograms per liter. Nitrates are 0.72 milligrams per liter, but
              that's well below the max.
              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57227 From: sevenspringss Date: 11/24/2017
              Subject: Re: Female Betta jumps through hoops
              Larry,
               
              Sure wish I could help you here, but it's literally outside of the aquarium scenario.  This is not to say that it's off-topic, as it's an issue that needs to be solved for you to be able to keep fish.  So, as I understand it, this water issue has nothing to do with your water in your previous home before you moved from it 5 years ago ---- AND, your water supply was still fine in your new home for the next 3 years, and only until your water company started adding a chlorinator to the water 2 years ago.  This then would seem to eliminate any possibility of the problem being agricultural run off into the groundwater or any other similar large change in the water chemistry from before the last two years as this chlorinator addition would have nothing to do with otherwise stable and pure water that has been supplied over at least 5 years.  This chemistry change is only sudden and only since the chlorinator has been added. 
               
              It would seem then that this problem is related only to the chlorinator and that any outside influence could not have anything to do with it because of this problem being so sudden and coinciding with the initial start of chlorinator addition.  I can't see how it can be anything else other than the chlorinator as being the problem.  While you probably concluded this before, my take on this is that the water company is not only adding chlorine but is adding chloramine by additionally supplying ammonia "downstream" of the chlorine to create chloramine -- this being the method most water companies use.  I believe you're quite correct in concluding that this is all coincidental -- TOO coincidental to be assumed that the water chemistry itself has changed at this very same time. 
               
              In one of your messages (on 11/22/2017 @ 11:57 AM EST) you state that the water company is now adding chlorine and in this same message you stated that "there's some contaminant coming in with the chemical used for chlorination that isn't handled by any of the water conditioners I've tried."  The chemical that's universally used for chlorination has always/only been chlorine.  Any other additive, as a possible contaminant, is not to be expected.  I'm not sure if you thought of this simple possibility -- and then too, I don't know what the different water conditioners were that you used, or what they were formulated to remove -- but I strongly suspect that your water company is not adding a chlorinator to your water but instead a chloraminator - as chloramine -- although if the water conditioners you've tried are not only dechlorinators but include dechloraminators, we can eliminate this possibility.  As you probably know, a dechlorinator will not work for chloramine.  Simple question: have you tried a good dechloraminator, such as "Prime"?  Have you tried "Amquel +", by the way?  Many hobbyists have had problems (fish kills) using "Amquel +" in the past, for dechloraminating their tank when their water companies used it to excess as the chemical process of this product separating and converting the ammonia additive to ammonium requires large amounts of oxygen.  Generous/liberal aeration is need to be used in the aquarium when using this product.    
               
              Ray
               
               
               
              In a message dated 11/23/2017 3:19:25 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
               



              On 11/22/2017 10:36 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] wrote:
              > I don't know if all water companies are required to send their customers
              > an annual water report listing every element/contaminant in their
              > supply, although many are (and do). You may want to look into whether
              > yours has such a report available.

              Yes they do, and yes I have it. The problem is that that test is done
              at the wellhead *before* the chlorinator is added. IOW, the same water
              that always worked.

              I suppose it could have changed at the same time chlorination began, but
              that'd be quite a coincidence.

              BTW, the "before" numbers look pretty good. Most of the tested for
              items come up as "none detected" and the four organics that do, show a
              few micrograms per liter. Nitrates are 0.72 milligrams per liter, but
              that's well below the max.

               
              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57228 From: LarryB Date: 11/24/2017
              Subject: Re: Female Betta jumps through hoops
              On 11/24/2017 08:26 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] wrote:
              > In one of your messages (on 11/22/2017 @ 11:57 AM EST) you state that
              > the water company is now adding chlorine and in this same message you
              > stated that "there's some contaminant coming in with the chemical used
              > for chlorination that isn't handled by any of the water conditioners
              > I've tried." The chemical that's universally used for chlorination has
              > always/only been chlorine. Any other additive, as a possible
              > contaminant, is not to be expected.

              According to the water company, they add calcium hypochlorite. That's a
              solid. I have yet to see a solid anything that's 100% pure :-). Maybe
              99.9999 :-).

              > I can't see how it can be anything else other than the chlorinator as being
              the problem.

              Yea, verily.


              > Many hobbyists have had problems (fish kills) using "Amquel +" in the past

              I've tried both Prime and AquaSafe+ in standard and double doses.

              > Generous/liberal aeration is need to be used in the aquarium when using this product.

              Now that's a thought. Thanks. I've got a canister filter on one tank
              and a HOB on the other. But I've had the water lever high enough that
              there wasn't much splashing. I'll lower it and try again. And maybe
              add a bubbler.

              Thanks again.
              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57229 From: Harry Perry Date: 11/24/2017
              Subject: Water issues....Re: [AquaticLife] Female Betta jumps through hoops
              It's been my experience that water authorities use different chemicals heading into winter than they do in the summer.

              A water report should be available, by law, on their website.

              Harry
              --------------------------------------------
              On Fri, 11/24/17, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

              Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Female Betta jumps through hoops
              To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Friday, November 24, 2017, 11:26 AM


               













              Larry,
               
              Sure wish I could help you here, but it's literally
              outside of the aquarium
              scenario.  This is not to say that it's off-topic, as
              it's an issue that
              needs to be solved for you to be able to keep fish.  So, as
              I understand
              it, this water issue has nothing to do with your water in
              your previous home
              before you moved from it 5 years ago ---- AND, your water
              supply was still
              fine in your new home for the next 3 years, and only until
              your water
              company started adding a chlorinator to the water 2 years
              ago. 
              This then would seem to eliminate any possibility of the
              problem
              being agricultural run off into the groundwater or any other
              similar large
              change in the water chemistry from before the last two years
              as this chlorinator
              addition would have nothing to do with otherwise stable and
              pure water that has
              been supplied over at least 5 years.  This chemistry change
              is only sudden
              and only since the chlorinator has been added. 
               
              It would seem then that this problem is related only to
              the chlorinator and
              that any outside influence could not have anything to do
              with it because of
              this problem being so sudden and coinciding with the
              initial start of
              chlorinator addition.  I can't see how it can be
              anything else other than
              the chlorinator as being the problem.  While you probably
              concluded this
              before, my take on this is that the water company is not
              only adding chlorine
              but is adding chloramine by additionally supplying
              ammonia "downstream" of
              the chlorine to create chloramine -- this being the method
              most water
              companies use.  I believe you're quite correct in
              concluding that this
              is all coincidental -- TOO coincidental to be assumed that
              the water
              chemistry itself has changed at this very same time. 
               
              In one of your messages (on 11/22/2017 @ 11:57 AM EST)
              you state that the
              water company is now adding chlorine and in this same
              message you stated that
              "there's some contaminant coming in with the
              chemical used for chlorination that
              isn't handled by any of the water conditioners I've
              tried."  The chemical
              that's universally used for chlorination has always/only
              been chlorine. 
              Any other additive, as a possible contaminant, is not to
              be
              expected.  I'm not sure if you thought of this simple
              possibility --
              and then too, I don't know what the different water
              conditioners were
              that you used, or what they were formulated to remove -- but
              I
              strongly suspect that your water company is not adding a
              chlorinator to
              your water but instead a chloraminator - as chloramine --
              although if
              the water conditioners you've tried are not only
              dechlorinators but include
              dechloraminators, we can eliminate this possibility.  As
              you probably
              know, a dechlorinator will not work for chloramine. 
              Simple question:
              have you tried a good dechloraminator, such as
              "Prime"?  Have you tried
              "Amquel +", by the way?  Many hobbyists have had
              problems (fish kills)
              using "Amquel +" in the past, for dechloraminating
              their tank when their water
              companies used it to excess as the chemical process of this
              product
              separating and converting the ammonia additive to
              ammonium requires large
              amounts of oxygen.  Generous/liberal aeration is need to be
              used in the
              aquarium when using this product.    
               
              Ray
               
               
               
              In a message dated 11/23/2017 3:19:25 P.M. Eastern
              Standard Time,
              AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
               



              On 11/22/2017 10:36
              AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]
              wrote:
              > I don't know if all water
              companies are required to send their
              customers
              > an annual water report
              listing every element/contaminant in
              their
              > supply, although many are (and
              do). You may want to look into
              whether
              > yours has such a report
              available.

              Yes they do, and
              yes
              I have it. The problem is that that test is done
              at the wellhead *before*
              the chlorinator is added. IOW, the same water
              that always worked.

              I
              suppose it could have changed at the same time
              chlorination began, but

              that'd be quite a coincidence.

              BTW, the "before"
              numbers look
              pretty good. Most of the tested for
              items
              come up as "none detected" and
              the four organics that do, show a
              few
              micrograms per liter. Nitrates are
              0.72 milligrams per liter, but
              that's
              well below the max.



               
              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57230 From: Harry Perry Date: 11/24/2017
              Subject: Larry. Water issues.
              Stress Coat is a dechlorinator I've been using it for years without any problems.

              Harry
              --------------------------------------------
              On Thu, 11/23/17, LarryB labl02@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

              Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Female Betta jumps through hoops
              To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Thursday, November 23, 2017, 12:35 PM


               



               


                 
                   
                   
                   



              On 11/22/2017 10:36 AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]
              wrote:

              > I don't know if all water companies are required to
              send their customers

              > an annual water report listing every
              element/contaminant in their

              > supply, although many are (and do).  You may want to
              look into whether

              > yours has such a report available.



              Yes they do, and yes I have it.  The problem is that that
              test is done

              at the wellhead *before* the chlorinator is added.  IOW, the
              same water

              that always worked.



              I suppose it could have changed at the same time
              chlorination began, but

              that'd be quite a coincidence.



              BTW, the "before" numbers look pretty good.  Most
              of the tested for

              items come up as "none detected" and the four
              organics that do, show a

              few micrograms per liter.  Nitrates are 0.72 milligrams per
              liter, but

              that's well below the max.



                 
                   

                 
                 
              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57231 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 11/24/2017
              Subject: Re: Water issues....Re: [AquaticLife] Female Betta jumps through hoo

              Yes, that's what I was thinking too-certainly all UK water companies carry a section on their website whereby you input your postcode [read zipcode for USA] & it gives you a very detailed report on that area's water supply. I understand at least some of the US water companies have this feature. In addition some water companies [including mine which is called Severn-Trent] have a chemist you can email about specific issues so that may be worth looking into?

              Some UK water companies use chlorine & some use chloramine. When refilling ponds in chlorine areas you can off-gas the chlorine by jetting it in as a fine spray setting on the hose gun & you can actually smell the chlorine in the air as this happens. In chloramine areas you have to use a water conditioner as the chloramine won't off-gas & otherwise stays bonded to the oxygen for maybe weeks. I have tried the fine spray jetwash method in chloraine areas just as an experiment to see if you can still smell the chlorine & you cannot. Larry-I wonder if you could try this with your water & see if you can smell chlorine when jetting your water as a fine spray, it may at least tell you whether or not chloramine is in use-just a thought.

               John<o)))<

              On 24 November 2017 at 21:58 "Harry Perry harryfisherman@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

               

              It's been my experience that water authorities use different chemicals heading into winter than they do in the summer.

              A water report should be available, by law, on their website.

              Harry
              --------------------------------------------
              On Fri, 11/24/17, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

              Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Female Betta jumps through hoops
              To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Friday, November 24, 2017, 11:26 AM


               













              Larry,
               
              Sure wish I could help you here, but it's literally
              outside of the aquarium
              scenario.  This is not to say that it's off-topic, as
              it's an issue that
              needs to be solved for you to be able to keep fish.  So, as
              I understand
              it, this water issue has nothing to do with your water in
              your previous home
              before you moved from it 5 years ago ---- AND, your water
              supply was still
              fine in your new home for the next 3 years, and only until
              your water
              company started adding a chlorinator to the water 2 years
              ago. 
              This then would seem to eliminate any possibility of the
              problem
              being agricultural run off into the groundwater or any other
              similar large
              change in the water chemistry from before the last two years
              as this chlorinator
              addition would have nothing to do with otherwise stable and
              pure water that has
              been supplied over at least 5 years.  This chemistry change
              is only sudden
              and only since the chlorinator has been added. 
               
              It would seem then that this problem is related only to
              the chlorinator and
              that any outside influence could not have anything to do
              with it because of
              this problem being so sudden and coinciding with the
              initial start of
              chlorinator addition.  I can't see how it can be
              anything else other than
              the chlorinator as being the problem.  While you probably
              concluded this
              before, my take on this is that the water company is not
              only adding chlorine
              but is adding chloramine by additionally supplying
              ammonia "downstream" of
              the chlorine to create chloramine -- this being the method
              most water
              companies use.  I believe you're quite correct in
              concluding that this
              is all coincidental -- TOO coincidental to be assumed that
              the water
              chemistry itself has changed at this very same time. 
               
              In one of your messages (on 11/22/2017 @ 11:57 AM EST)
              you state that the
              water company is now adding chlorine and in this same
              message you stated that
              "there's some contaminant coming in with the
              chemical used for chlorination that
              isn't handled by any of the water conditioners I've
              tried."  The chemical
              that's universally used for chlorination has always/only
              been chlorine. 
              Any other additive, as a possible contaminant, is not to
              be
              expected.  I'm not sure if you thought of this simple
              possibility --
              and then too, I don't know what the different water
              conditioners were
              that you used, or what they were formulated to remove -- but
              I
              strongly suspect that your water company is not adding a
              chlorinator to
              your water but instead a chloraminator - as chloramine --
              although if
              the water conditioners you've tried are not only
              dechlorinators but include
              dechloraminators, we can eliminate this possibility.  As
              you probably
              know, a dechlorinator will not work for chloramine. 
              Simple question:
              have you tried a good dechloraminator, such as
              "Prime"?  Have you tried
              "Amquel +", by the way?  Many hobbyists have had
              problems (fish kills)
              using "Amquel +" in the past, for dechloraminating
              their tank when their water
              companies used it to excess as the chemical process of this
              product
              separating and converting the ammonia additive to
              ammonium requires large
              amounts of oxygen.  Generous/liberal aeration is need to be
              used in the
              aquarium when using this product.    
               
              Ray
               
               
               
              In a message dated 11/23/2017 3:19:25 P.M. Eastern
              Standard Time,
              AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
               



              On 11/22/2017 10:36
              AM, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]
              wrote:
              > I don't know if all water
              companies are required to send their
              customers
              > an annual water report
              listing every element/contaminant in
              their
              > supply, although many are (and
              do). You may want to look into
              whether
              > yours has such a report
              available.

              Yes they do, and
              yes
              I have it. The problem is that that test is done
              at the wellhead *before*
              the chlorinator is added. IOW, the same water
              that always worked.

              I
              suppose it could have changed at the same time
              chlorination began, but

              that'd be quite a coincidence.

              BTW, the "before"
              numbers look
              pretty good. Most of the tested for
              items
              come up as "none detected" and
              the four organics that do, show a
              few
              micrograms per liter. Nitrates are
              0.72 milligrams per liter, but
              that's
              well below the max.



               







               


               

              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57232 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 11/27/2017
              Subject: Re: Female Betta jumps through hoops

              Hi Larry,

              Re-reading your post you mention Old Tank Syndrome, what is that, what causes it & what (if anything) can be done to prevent it? I've not heard of it, only obviously New Tank Syndrome but that is common. I was always of the opinion that once a tank was set up then with proper maintenance it would go on indefiantely. My 100 gallon was set up back in 2009 & is home to several large streamlined & very sprightly Goldfish.

               John<o)))<

              On 22 November 2017 at 16:42 "LarryB labl02@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

               



              On 11/21/2017 06:01 PM, SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@...
              [AquaticLife] wrote:
              > It must have been more than a few years back as I don't remember
              > hearing about it before. I love hearing stories like this, it shows how
              > intelligent & fun loving fish really are. How long have you been
              > fishless & what happened with your water?

              We moved 5 years ago. Our new house, like our old one, got water
              directly from an underground aquifer with no treatment needed. Moved a
              40 gallon and a 30 gallon with rainbowfish and corys, plus live plants.
              Even bred and sold a few dwarf neon rainbowfish. No problem with the move.

              Two years ago, the water company had to start using chlorine. I've
              always used a water conditioner so didn't expect any problems. But both
              fish and plants started dying. At first I thought it was just old tank
              syndrome, but nothing I did seemed to help. And I did a lot!

              The only conclusion I reached is that there's some contaminant that's
              coming in with the chemical used for chlorination that isn't handled by
              any of the water conditioners I've tried, even at double doses.

              I can't afford a comprehensive water test, they're a couple hundred
              dollars or more. Same thing for a reverse osmosis setup. We're retired
              on a fixed income.

              A carbon filter does let the fish live for a week or two instead of a
              day or two, so I'm pretty sure it's the water.

              I have other hobbies as well as the normal home maintenance stuff to
              deal with, so I've been letting this one slide. Maybe this winter I can
              do some more research.


               


               

              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57233 From: Harry Perry Date: 11/27/2017
              Subject: Old tank syndrome.
              Everything appears normal but a water test shows otherwise. NiTRATES at 40 ppm are normal. However this can degenerate over time and get to the point of killing your fish.

              https://www.thespruce.com/old-tank-syndrome-1381225

              Harry




              --------------------------------------------
              On Mon, 11/27/17, SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

              Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Female Betta jumps through hoops
              To: "aquaticlife" <aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com>
              Date: Monday, November 27, 2017, 5:35 PM


               



               


                 
                   
                   
                   

              Hi
              Larry,
              Re-reading your
              post you mention Old Tank Syndrome, what is that, what
              causes it & what (if anything) can be done to prevent
              it? I've not heard of it, only obviously New Tank
              Syndrome but that is common. I was always of the opinion
              that once a tank was set up then with proper maintenance it
              would go on indefiantely. My 100 gallon was set up back in
              2009 & is home to several large streamlined & very
              sprightly Goldfish.
               John<o)))<
              On 22
              November 2017 at 16:42 "LarryB labl02@...
              [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
              wrote:

                 

               
                On 11/21/2017 06:01 PM, SIMMONDS JOHN
              simmonds.john@...
                [AquaticLife]
              wrote:
                > It must have been more than a
              few years back as I don't remember
                >
              hearing about it before. I love hearing stories like this,
              it shows how
                > intelligent & fun
              loving fish really are. How long have you been
                > fishless & what happened with your
              water?
               
                We moved 5 years
              ago. Our new house, like our old one, got water
                directly from an underground aquifer with no
              treatment needed. Moved a
                40 gallon and a
              30 gallon with rainbowfish and corys, plus live plants.
                Even bred and sold a few dwarf neon
              rainbowfish. No problem with the move.
               
                Two years ago, the water company had to start
              using chlorine. I've
                always used a
              water conditioner so didn't expect any problems. But
              both
                fish and plants started dying. At
              first I thought it was just old tank

              syndrome, but nothing I did seemed to help. And I did a
              lot!
               
                The only conclusion
              I reached is that there's some contaminant that's

                coming in with the chemical used for
              chlorination that isn't handled by
                any
              of the water conditioners I've tried, even at double
              doses.
               
                I can't afford
              a comprehensive water test, they're a couple hundred
                dollars or more. Same thing for a reverse
              osmosis setup. We're retired
                on a
              fixed income.
               
                A carbon
              filter does let the fish live for a week or two instead of a

                day or two, so I'm pretty sure
              it's the water.
               
                I
              have other hobbies as well as the normal home maintenance
              stuff to
                deal with, so I've been
              letting this one slide. Maybe this winter I can
                do some more research.
               
               
               

                 
                   

                 
                 
              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57234 From: LarryB Date: 11/27/2017
              Subject: Re: Female Betta jumps through hoops
              On 11/27/2017 02:35 PM, SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@...
              [AquaticLife] wrote:
              > Re-reading your post you mention Old Tank Syndrome, what is that, what
              > causes it & what (if anything) can be done to prevent it?

              See: http://www.liveaquaria.com/PIC/article.cfm?aid=214

              or do a Google and see how many items come up :-).
              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57235 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 11/28/2017
              Subject: Re: Old tank syndrome.

              Hi Harry,

               Thank you for that-a very interesting read & I'm glad to report that the very 4 tests recommended in the article are the ones I do regularly with all being good & stable for some years now:  NO3 25-30, Ammo 0, NO2 0 & pH 7.8. I change out 25 gallons every 3 days [tank is 100 gallons with 4 big streamlined Goldfish] with lots of vacuuming & in addition I am always on top of the algae build-up on the planters & decor, I alternate cleaning the big 15 gallon filter & the small canister that runs the UV sub-system every month.

               John<o)))<

               

              On 27 November 2017 at 23:10 "Harry Perry harryfisherman@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

               

              Everything appears normal but a water test shows otherwise. NiTRATES at 40 ppm are normal. Howith awever this can degenerate over time and get to the point of killing your fish.

              https://www.thespruce.com/old-tank-syndrome-1381225

              Harry

              --------------------------------------------
              On Mon, 11/27/17, SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

              Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Female Betta jumps through hoops
              To: "aquaticlife" <aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com>
              Date: Monday, November 27, 2017, 5:35 PM


               



               


                 
                   
                   
                   

              Hi
              Larry,
              Re-reading your
              post you mention Old Tank Syndrome, what is that, what
              causes it & what (if anything) can be done to prevent
              it? I've not heard of it, only obviously New Tank
              Syndrome but that is common. I was always of the opinion
              that once a tank was set up then with proper maintenance it
              would go on indefiantely. My 100 gallon was set up back in
              2009 & is home to several large streamlined & very
              sprightly Goldfish.
               John<o)))<
              On 22
              November 2017 at 16:42 "LarryB labl02@...
              [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
              wrote:

                 

               
                On 11/21/2017 06:01 PM, SIMMONDS JOHN
              simmonds.john@...
                [AquaticLife]
              wrote:
                > It must have been more than a
              few years back as I don't remember
                >
              hearing about it before. I love hearing stories like this,
              it shows how
                > intelligent & fun
              loving fish really are. How long have you been
                > fishless & what happened with your
              water?
               
                We moved 5 years
              ago. Our new house, like our old one, got water
                directly from an underground aquifer with no
              treatment needed. Moved a
                40 gallon and a
              30 gallon with rainbowfish and corys, plus live plants.
                Even bred and sold a few dwarf neon
              rainbowfish. No problem with the move.
               
                Two years ago, the water company had to start
              using chlorine. I've
                always used a
              water conditioner so didn't expect any problems. But
              both
                fish and plants started dying. At
              first I thought it was just old tank

              syndrome, but nothing I did seemed to help. And I did a
              lot!
               
                The only conclusion
              I reached is that there's some contaminant that's

                coming in with the chemical used for
              chlorination that isn't handled by
                any
              of the water conditioners I've tried, even at double
              doses.
               
                I can't afford
              a comprehensive water test, they're a couple hundred
                dollars or more. Same thing for a reverse
              osmosis setup. We're retired
                on a
              fixed income.
               
                A carbon
              filter does let the fish live for a week or two instead of a

                day or two, so I'm pretty sure
              it's the water.
               
                I
              have other hobbies as well as the normal home maintenance
              stuff to
                deal with, so I've been
              letting this one slide. Maybe this winter I can
                do some more research.
               
               
               

                 
                   

                 
                 


               


               

              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57236 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 11/28/2017
              Subject: Re: Female Betta jumps through hoops

              Thank you Larry, ditto my previous reply to Harry.

               John<o)))<

              On 28 November 2017 at 00:32 "LarryB labl02@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

               



              On 11/27/2017 02:35 PM, SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@...
              [AquaticLife] wrote:
              > Re-reading your post you mention Old Tank Syndrome, what is that, what
              > causes it & what (if anything) can be done to prevent it?

              See: http://www.liveaquaria.com/PIC/article.cfm?aid=214

              or do a Google and see how many items come up :-).


               


               

              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57237 From: Harry Perry Date: 11/28/2017
              Subject: John....Re: [AquaticLife] Old tank syndrome.
              Interesting, keeping Gold Fish would mean more maintenance and since you keep up with it the chances of "OLD TANK SYNDROME"

              are diminished or non existent.

              Looking back over the years here, regular maintenance and water changes would have saved a lot of money, aggravation and fish.

              Harry



              --------------------------------------------
              On Tue, 11/28/17, SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

              Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Old tank syndrome.
              To: "aquaticlife" <aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com>
              Date: Tuesday, November 28, 2017, 9:32 PM


               



               


                 
                   
                   
                   

              Hi
              Harry,
               Thank you for
              that-a very interesting read & I'm glad to report
              that the very 4 tests recommended in the article are the
              ones I do regularly with all being good & stable for
              some years now:  NO3 25-30, Ammo 0, NO2 0 & pH 7.8. I
              change out 25 gallons every 3 days [tank is 100 gallons with
              4 big streamlined Goldfish] with lots of vacuuming & in
              addition I am always on top of the algae build-up on the
              planters & decor, I alternate cleaning the big 15 gallon
              filter & the small canister that runs the UV sub-system
              every month.
               John<o)))<
               
              On 27
              November 2017 at 23:10 "Harry Perry
              harryfisherman@... [AquaticLife]"
              <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                  Everything appears normal but
              a water test shows otherwise. NiTRATES at 40 ppm are normal.
              Howith awever this can degenerate over time and get to the
              point of killing your fish.
               

              https://www.thespruce.com/old-tank-syndrome-1381225
               
                Harry
               
              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57238 From: Harry Perry Date: 12/8/2017
              Subject: Medicating Bettas......
              So, I'm raising Bettas. From time to time they fall ill for one reason or another.

              My observations....when medicating I use a bare bottom hospital tank.

              However, this is important, if the fish is weakened by not eating or by the illness they won't be able to reach the top for air. The meds may be working and the fish may recover but if it can't reach the surface it will die.

              I simply rigged a floating net and put the fish in it. There are also breeding baskets etc. The idea of course is to keep the fish close to the surface.

              This appears to be working well so I thought I would pass it along.

              Harry
              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57239 From: sevenspringss Date: 12/8/2017
              Subject: Re: Medicating Bettas......
              Excellent suggestion, Harry!  Many hobbyists may not have even thought of doing anything like using a floating net to keep the fish nearer the surface..
               
              Ray 
               
               
              In a message dated 12/8/2017 9:01:04 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
               

              So, I'm raising Bettas. From time to time they fall ill for one reason or another.

              My observations....when medicating I use a bare bottom hospital tank.

              However, this is important, if the fish is weakened by not eating or by the illness they won't be able to reach the top for air. The meds may be working and the fish may recover but if it can't reach the surface it will die.

              I simply rigged a floating net and put the fish in it. There are also breeding baskets etc. The idea of course is to keep the fish close to the surface.

              This appears to be working well so I thought I would pass it along.

              Harry

               
              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57240 From: Harry Perry Date: 12/8/2017
              Subject: Ray.....Re: [AquaticLife] Medicating Bettas......
              Thank you. Actually it was very gratifying to see the dramatic results in the fish I'm working with now.

              Harry
              --------------------------------------------
              On Fri, 12/8/17, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

              Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Medicating Bettas......
              To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Friday, December 8, 2017, 10:47 PM


               













              Excellent suggestion, Harry!  Many hobbyists may not
              have even
              thought of doing anything like using a floating net to keep
              the fish nearer the
              surface..
               
              Ray 
               
               
              In a message dated 12/8/2017 9:01:04 P.M. Eastern
              Standard Time,
              AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
               

              So, I'm raising Bettas. From time to time they fall
              ill for one reason or
              another.

              My
              observations....when medicating I use a bare bottom
              hospital tank.

              However,
              this is important, if the fish is weakened by
              not eating or by the illness they won't be able to
              reach the top for air. The
              meds may be working and the fish may recover but if it
              can't reach the surface
              it will die.

              I simply
              rigged a floating net and put the fish in it.
              There are also breeding baskets etc. The idea of course is
              to keep the fish
              close to the surface.

              This appears to be working well so I thought I
              would pass it along.

              Harry



               
              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57241 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 12/9/2017
              Subject: Re: Ray.....Re: [AquaticLife] Medicating Bettas......

              Hi Harry,

               What a great idea! Is the need to reach the surface something specific to Bettas?

               John<o)))<

              On 09 December 2017 at 04:40 "Harry Perry harryfisherman@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

               

              Thank you. Actually it was very gratifying to see the dramatic results in the fish I'm working with now.

              Harry,


              --------------------------------------------
              On Fri, 12/8/17, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

              Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Medicating Bettas......
              To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Friday, December 8, 2017, 10:47 PM


               













              Excellent suggestion, Harry!  Many hobbyists may not
              have even
              thought of doing anything like using a floating net to keep
              the fish nearer the
              surface..
               
              Ray 
               
               
              In a message dated 12/8/2017 9:01:04 P.M. Eastern
              Standard Time,
              AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
               

              So, I'm raising Bettas. From time to time they fall
              ill for one reason or
              another.

              My
              observations....when medicating I use a bare bottom
              hospital tank.

              However,
              this is important, if the fish is weakened by
              not eating or by the illness they won't be able to
              reach the top for air. The
              meds may be working and the fish may recover but if it
              can't reach the surface
              it will die.

              I simply
              rigged a floating net and put the fish in it.
              There are also breeding baskets etc. The idea of course is
              to keep the fish
              close to the surface.

              This appears to be working well so I thought I
              would pass it along.

              Harry



               







               


               

              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57242 From: Harry Perry Date: 12/9/2017
              Subject: SIMMONDS JOHN [AquaticLife] Medicating Bettas......
              Bettas and Gouramis are labyrinth fish. This is an organ similar to a lung. These fish have evolved in this fashion to help them deal with the oxygen poor water they come from. They cannot survive out of water but they do need to come to the top for air on a regular basis or they will suffocate.

              Harry





              On Sat, 12/9/17, SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

              Subject: Re: Ray.....Re: [AquaticLife] Medicating Bettas......
              To: "aquaticlife" <aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com>
              Date: Saturday, December 9, 2017, 8:58 PM


               











              Hi
              Harry,
               What a great
              idea! Is the need to reach the surface something specific to
              Bettas?
               John<o)))<
              On 09
              December 2017 at 04:40 "Harry Perry
              harryfisherman@... [AquaticLife]"
              <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                Thank you. Actually it was
              very gratifying to see the dramatic results in the fish
              I'm working with now.


              Harry,

              --------------------------------------------
              On Fri, 12/8/17, sevenspringss1@...
              [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

              Subject: Re: [AquaticLife]
              Medicating Bettas......
              To:
              AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Friday,
              December 8, 2017, 10:47 PM


               













              Excellent suggestion, Harry!  Many hobbyists
              may not
              have even

              thought of doing anything like using a floating net to
              keep
              the fish nearer the

              surface..
               
              Ray 
               
               
              In a
              message dated 12/8/2017 9:01:04 P.M. Eastern
              Standard Time,

              AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
               

              So, I'm raising Bettas.
              From time to time they fall
              ill for one
              reason or
              another.

              My
              observations....when
              medicating I use a bare bottom
              hospital
              tank.

              However,
              this is important, if the fish is weakened by

              not eating or by the illness they
              won't be able to
              reach the top for air.
              The
              meds may be working and the fish may
              recover but if it
              can't reach the
              surface
              it will die.

              I simply
              rigged a floating
              net and put the fish in it.
              There are also
              breeding baskets etc. The idea of course is

              to keep the fish
              close to the surface.

              This appears to be working
              well so I thought I
              would pass it
              along.

              Harry



               








               
               
              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57243 From: sevenspringss Date: 12/9/2017
              Subject: Re: Ray.....Re: [AquaticLife] Medicating Bettas......
              I may have just thought of lowering the water level, but that's not always practical with a planted tank.  As you medicate in a bare bottom tank though, is there some additional advantage to keeping the water level higher, while using the floating net?  I do understand that it's easier to use medications if treating in a full ten gallons however, as most capsule or tablet medicines are marketed to use one increment of these per 10 gallons; even many liquid medications state to use 1 teaspoon (or capful) per 10 gallons.  I do see at least a couple of major drawback to lowering the water level that comes to my mind right now with one being if a hobbyist uses hang-on heaters.  A submersible one that can be installed horizontally near the bottom of the tank will eliminate that problem, but not everyone has a budget that would allow for that; submersible heaters are a bit costly.  Then too, except for air-operated bottom filters, most other filters require a full tank of water.  The more this floating net is thought about, the more practical it appears, although I'm still left with wondering if just lowering the water level may be doable at times. 
               
              I'm guessing that this floating net supports a fish not much lower than several inches below the surface; even less space that's needed for a bottom filter to operate in.   Are there any specific maladies that you find Bettas being prone to getting?  I realize that when keeping any fish long enough, the odds for our fish getting any disease will increase as the opportunity for one increases.  All we need to do is to forget to make a scheduled PWC, which may allow for the water parameters to go bad, or any other number of things we may unintentionally neglect, like ensuring a minimum 74 o - 76 o F temperature for Bettas (80 o F for breeding).  I used to enjoy breeding Bettas myself a few years after I first got into the hobby,as the first egglayer I ever bred.  It was a rewarding experience and I was lucky enough to raise some nice ones.  Those days hatching brine shrimp eggs was unheard of and there were no powdered foods available then that would entice Betta fry to eat them.  A good infusoria culture was the only way to go to raise Betta fry back then, and a microscope often came in handy, as a rotting culture inhabited only by bacteria was not only useless but detrimental.
               
              Ray
               
               
               
              In a message dated 12/8/2017 11:40:48 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
               

              Thank you. Actually it was very gratifying to see the dramatic results in the fish I'm working with now.

              Harry
              --------------------------------------------
              On Fri, 12/8/17, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

              Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Medicating Bettas......
              To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Friday, December 8, 2017, 10:47 PM


               













              Excellent suggestion, Harry!  Many hobbyists may not
              have even
              thought of doing anything like using a floating net to keep
              the fish nearer the
              surface..
               
              Ray 
               
               
              In a message dated 12/8/2017 9:01:04 P.M. Eastern
              Standard Time,
              AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
               

              So, I'm raising Bettas. From time to time they fall
              ill for one reason or
              another.

              My
              observations....when medicating I use a bare bottom
              hospital tank.

              However,
              this is important, if the fish is weakened by
              not eating or by the illness they won't be able to
              reach the top for air. The
              meds may be working and the fish may recover but if it
              can't reach the surface
              it will die.

              I simply
              rigged a floating net and put the fish in it.
              There are also breeding baskets etc. The idea of course is
              to keep the fish
              close to the surface.

              This appears to be working well so I thought I
              would pass it along.

              Harry



               






              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57244 From: Harry Perry Date: 12/11/2017
              Subject: Ray again..... [AquaticLife] Medicating Bettas......
              Sorry it took so long to get back to you.

              I just picked the quickest way to help the fish. This fish was only an inch from the surface. I just bent the net handle over the side of the tank and lifted the lower edge with a piece of Styrofoam.

              I have submersible heaters in all 6 of my aquariums but I also am running sponge filters. I have found they don't work very well with low water. Of course you can can just take the filter out in a hospital tank. The meds would probably work better with out it.

              There is a way to lower the water level with a hang on the side heater.....

              Years back, to set up a breeding tank, I would lower the water level to half a 10 gallon and put my hang on the side heater in a large jar of water inside the tank. It heated the water, kept the heater at the proper water level but also heated the air above the water which as you know is critical when labyrinth fry take their first breath at the surface. Then I put a piece of plastic wrap over the tank to maintain constant warmth. That was one of the most successful spawns I ever had. I ended up with 75 dwarf Gouramis and sold them to my LFS.

              More important especially with Bettas, I hear folks comment that they don't have to keep up with water changes because the fish comes from polluted water hence the labyrinth organ.

              Consider this......most of the fish in the trade today come from fish farms. Their immune systems are quite different from their wild cousins. It may be more important than ever to do weekly water changes.

              Also, the LFS may have to turn over this stock quickly. I wouldn't assume these fish have been in quarantine, or have been de-wormed or are parasite free.

              Keeping up with basics may sound boring but it takes on a different meaning with a $400.00 Zebra Pleco in the tank.You could lose your whole investment.

              Harry






              -------------------------------------------
              On Sun, 12/10/17, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

              Subject: Re: Ray.....Re: [AquaticLife] Medicating Bettas......
              To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Sunday, December 10, 2017, 2:18 AM


               













              I may have just thought of lowering the water level,
              but that's not always
              practical with a planted tank.  As you medicate in a bare
              bottom
              tank though, is there some additional advantage to keeping
              the water level
              higher, while using the floating net?  I do understand
              that it's
              easier to use medications if treating in a full ten gallons
              however, as most
              capsule or tablet medicines are marketed to use one
              increment of these per 10
              gallons; even many liquid medications state to use 1
              teaspoon (or
              capful) per 10 gallons.  I do see at least a couple
              of major
              drawback to lowering the water level that comes to my mind
              right now with
              one being if a hobbyist uses hang-on heaters.  A
              submersible one that
              can be installed horizontally near the bottom of the tank
              will eliminate that
              problem, but not everyone has a budget that would allow for
              that; submersible
              heaters are a bit costly.  Then too, except for
              air-operated bottom
              filters, most other filters require a full tank of water. 
              The more this
              floating net is thought about, the more practical it
              appears, although I'm still
              left with wondering if just lowering the water level may be
              doable at
              times. 
               
              I'm guessing that this floating net supports a fish
              not much lower than
              several inches below the surface; even less space that's
              needed for a bottom
              filter to operate in.   Are there any specific maladies
              that you find Bettas being prone to getting?  I realize
              that when
              keeping any fish long enough, the odds for our fish getting
              any disease will
              increase as the opportunity for one increases.  All we
              need to do is
              to forget to make a scheduled PWC, which may allow for the
              water parameters
              to go bad, or any other number of things we may
              unintentionally
              neglect, like ensuring a minimum 74 o - 76 o F temperature
              for Bettas (80 o F
              for breeding).  I used to enjoy breeding Bettas myself a
              few years after I
              first got into the hobby,as the first egglayer I ever
              bred.  It was a
              rewarding experience and I was lucky enough to raise some
              nice ones.  Those
              days hatching brine shrimp eggs was unheard of and there
              were no powdered
              foods available then that would entice Betta fry to eat
              them.  A good
              infusoria culture was the only way to go to raise Betta fry
              back then, and a
              microscope often came in handy, as a rotting culture
              inhabited only by bacteria
              was not only useless but detrimental.
               
              Ray
               
               
               
              In a message dated 12/8/2017 11:40:48 P.M. Eastern
              Standard Time,
              AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
               

              Thank you. Actually it was very gratifying to see the
              dramatic results in
              the fish I'm working with
              now.

              Harry
              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57245 From: sevenspringss Date: 12/11/2017
              Subject: Re: Medicating Bettas......
              As for a response time in replying, I think we can allow ourselves to be a little more relaxed.  Don't be too concerned with that.
               
              Using a net in this way is a great idea.  Sounds simple, but not many would think of it.  Sure looks like it serves the purpose better than any other way.  Reminds me of an old saying, "Necessity is the mother of invention."  We tend to improvise whenever we need to.
               
              I see what you mean about sponge filters -- they lose their efficiency where nothing but air is contacting them. 
               
              On using a hang-on heater in a tank with a lowered water level, I had forgotten about using a tall jar filled with water and placing it in the aquarium.  I now remember reading about this and will try to keep it in mind next time I need it.  I use a 10 gallon tank for medicating and since they're only 10" wide (front to back), I've instead used a 15" long hang-on heater that's lowered into the tank with the top of it being suspended by its electrical cord (and clipped to the rim of the tank) several inches out from the corner along the front glass while the bottom of the heater is forced at an angle by floatation into the rear corner on the same end and can't rise since there's no room for it to do so; the heater is longer than the tank is wide.  I do have several submersible heaters but no spare ones to use for medication tanks, and I find this method easy.   
               
              I do recall reading that it was recommended to lower the water level in Anabantid tanks when breeding them to help ensure the male will be able to gather all the falling eggs when placing them inn the bubblenest.  While I didn't see it necessary to lower the water half-way, I always lowered it to about 9" and usually had large spawns.  I'd keep the tank cover with a sheet of window glass to keep the heated/moist air over the water.    Did the same for Dwarf Gourami's -- they were the second egglayer I spawned.  I tried plastic wrap but found it to be a problem when feeding the fish, but I did use it along with the glass cover as it completed the seal that the air line made necessary to do, since that line raised the glass where it entered the tank.  When the actual breeding was going on though, I never had a filter going as I didn't want to disturb the bubble nest.  A filter was only used several weeks after spawning, to prevent any fry from being sucked into one.  When needed, PWC's were carefully done before a filter was installed.   
               
              While Bettas in their natural environment may be found in rice paddies and other smaller and shallower depressions of still water, and while these environments may be murky & turbid - even possibly having been trounced through by Water Buffalo, it was never my belief that this water was "polluted," even though it has a lower oxygen content since it's relatively stagnant.  Water changing will always be in the best interest in maintaining any fish, to ensure the water's maximum purity for supporting them. 
               
              Good point on Bettas in the trade coming from fish farms, and especially those farms located in Asia.  Those fish farms in the southern States of the USA don't treat their fish much better where worms or parasites are concerned, and the LFS won't see to this because of the expense and time consumption involved.  It's doubtful that they've been dewormed or are parasite-free, and while they (the males) may be quarantined after 6 weeks of age to separate containers, previously they were all inhabiting one large outdoor container on the farms.  For this very reason, it's always best to buy one's stock from a domestic Betta breeder as even though the price may be higher; the quality is better.  I agree, basic aquarium maintenance is basic to maintaining fish and should always be continued for best fish health.
               
              Ray 
               
               
               
              In a message dated 12/11/2017 3:57:00 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
               

              Sorry it took so long to get back to you.

              I just picked the quickest way to help the fish. This fish was only an inch from the surface. I just bent the net handle over the side of the tank and lifted the lower edge with a piece of Styrofoam.

              I have submersible heaters in all 6 of my aquariums but I also am running sponge filters. I have found they don't work very well with low water. Of course you can can just take the filter out in a hospital tank. The meds would probably work better with out it.

              There is a way to lower the water level with a hang on the side heater.....

              Years back, to set up a breeding tank, I would lower the water level to half a 10 gallon and put my hang on the side heater in a large jar of water inside the tank. It heated the water, kept the heater at the proper water level but also heated the air above the water which as you know is critical when labyrinth fry take their first breath at the surface. Then I put a piece of plastic wrap over the tank to maintain constant warmth. That was one of the most successful spawns I ever had. I ended up with 75 dwarf Gouramis and sold them to my LFS.

              More important especially with Bettas, I hear folks comment that they don't have to keep up with water changes because the fish comes from polluted water hence the labyrinth organ.

              Consider this......most of the fish in the trade today come from fish farms. Their immune systems are quite different from their wild cousins. It may be more important than ever to do weekly water changes.

              Also, the LFS may have to turn over this stock quickly. I wouldn't assume these fish have been in quarantine, or have been de-wormed or are parasite free.

              Keeping up with basics may sound boring but it takes on a different meaning with a $400.00 Zebra Pleco in the tank.You could lose your whole investment.

              Harry

              -------------------------------------------
              On Sun, 12/10/17, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

              Subject: Re: Ray.....Re: [AquaticLife] Medicating Bettas......
              To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Sunday, December 10, 2017, 2:18 AM


               













              I may have just thought of lowering the water level,
              but that's not always
              practical with a planted tank.  As you medicate in a bare
              bottom
              tank though, is there some additional advantage to keeping
              the water level
              higher, while using the floating net?  I do understand
              that it's
              easier to use medications if treating in a full ten gallons
              however, as most
              capsule or tablet medicines are marketed to use one
              increment of these per 10
              gallons; even many liquid medications state to use 1
              teaspoon (or
              capful) per 10 gallons.  I do see at least a couple
              of major
              drawback to lowering the water level that comes to my mind
              right now with
              one being if a hobbyist uses hang-on heaters.  A
              submersible one that
              can be installed horizontally near the bottom of the tank
              will eliminate that
              problem, but not everyone has a budget that would allow for
              that; submersible
              heaters are a bit costly.  Then too, except for
              air-operated bottom
              filters, most other filters require a full tank of water. 
              The more this
              floating net is thought about, the more practical it
              appears, although I'm still
              left with wondering if just lowering the water level may be
              doable at
              times. 
               
              I'm guessing that this floating net supports a fish
              not much lower than
              several inches below the surface; even less space that's
              needed for a bottom
              filter to operate in.   Are there any specific maladies
              that you find Bettas being prone to getting?  I realize
              that when
              keeping any fish long enough, the odds for our fish getting
              any disease will
              increase as the opportunity for one increases.  All we
              need to do is
              to forget to make a scheduled PWC, which may allow for the
              water parameters
              to go bad, or any other number of things we may
              unintentionally
              neglect, like ensuring a minimum 74 o - 76 o F temperature
              for Bettas (80 o F
              for breeding).  I used to enjoy breeding Bettas myself a
              few years after I
              first got into the hobby,as the first egglayer I ever
              bred.  It was a
              rewarding experience and I was lucky enough to raise some
              nice ones.  Those
              days hatching brine shrimp eggs was unheard of and there
              were no powdered
              foods available then that would entice Betta fry to eat
              them.  A good
              infusoria culture was the only way to go to raise Betta fry
              back then, and a
              microscope often came in handy, as a rotting culture
              inhabited only by bacteria
              was not only useless but detrimental.
               
              Ray
               
               
               
              In a message dated 12/8/2017 11:40:48 P.M. Eastern
              Standard Time,
              AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
               

              Thank you. Actually it was very gratifying to see the
              dramatic results in
              the fish I'm working with
              now.

              Harry

               
              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57246 From: sevenspringss Date: 12/25/2017
              Subject: Re: Season's Greetings
               
               
              Best Wishes for a
               
              HAPPY HOLIDAY SEASON
              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57247 From: Harry Perry Date: 12/25/2017
              Subject: Ray....Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Season's Greetings
              Happy Holidays to you and yours.

              Harry
              --------------------------------------------
              On Mon, 12/25/17, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

              Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Season's Greetings
              To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Monday, December 25, 2017, 6:46 AM


               












               
               
              Best Wishes for a

               
              HAPPY HOLIDAY
              SEASON
              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57248 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 12/25/2017
              Subject: Re: Ray....Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Season's Greetings

              Merry Christmas everyone!

               John.

              On 25 December 2017 at 16:30 "Harry Perry harryfisherman@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

               

              Happy Holidays to you and yours.

              Harry
              --------------------------------------------
              On Mon, 12/25/17, sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

              Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Season's Greetings
              To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Monday, December 25, 2017, 6:46 AM


               












               
               
              Best Wishes for a

               
              HAPPY HOLIDAY
              SEASON








               


               

              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57249 From: sevenspringss Date: 1/1/2018
              Subject: Re: New Year's Greetings
               
               
               
               
              HAPPY NEW YEAR !
              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57250 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 1/1/2018
              Subject: Re: New Year's Greetings

              Happy New Year to you Ray & all at Aquatic Life.

               John<o)))<

              On 01 January 2018 at 15:54 "sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

               

               

               
               
               
               
              HAPPY NEW YEAR !

               


               


               

              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57251 From: Andy Mills Date: 1/11/2018
              Subject: Tortoiseshell pleco?
              Hi, I got a new pleco at the weekend. The shop had it labelled as a
              tortoiseshell pleco. When I asked about it the shop assistant said it
              was l37. I looked that fish up when I got home, planet catfish has l37
              listed as the honeycomb pleco and it doesn't really look like my fish.
              My friend found this video of a tortoiseshell pleco which looks more
              like mine, does anyone know what the fish in this video actually is and
              what it's l number may be so I can try and find a bit more information
              about it.

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7FYj_8rPgs


              ---
              This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
              http://www.avg.com
              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57252 From: Raymond Wetzel Date: 1/11/2018
              Subject: Re: Tortoiseshell pleco?
              Nice looking fish, but I can't tell you what its L number is.   Perhaps it might be easier to find if you have the scientific name.

              Ray


              -----Original Message-----
              From: Andy Mills andy.mills@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
              To: AquaticLife <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Thu, Jan 11, 2018 2:18 pm
              Subject: [AquaticLife] Tortoiseshell pleco?

               

              Hi, I got a new pleco at the weekend. The shop had it labelled as a
              tortoiseshell pleco. When I asked about it the shop assistant said it
              was l37. I looked that fish up when I got home, planet catfish has l37
              listed as the honeycomb pleco and it doesn't really look like my fish.
              My friend found this video of a tortoiseshell pleco which looks more
              like mine, does anyone know what the fish in this video actually is and
              what it's l number may be so I can try and find a bit more information
              about it.

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7FYj_8rPgs

              ---
              This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
              http://www.avg.com

              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57253 From: adonaikam Date: 3/20/2018
              Subject: Hello all

              Hi all

              Its been a while since I have been on so thought I would provide an update.
              Loads of stuff has happened over the years to the extent I have to give up keeping indoor fish for a time.  We kept the outside pond but had to give the indoor ones away for a time.


              A few years ago we got a small tank inside but after moving house last year we set up our 3foot tank and just had it aquacscaped and had a pair of Koi anglefish added today.


              Our main fish tank contains Koi Angels; Albino Bristles; Bristle nose; Blackwidow Tetras; Neons Tetras; Rummy-noses tetras; Glowlight tetras & Mystery snails.

               

              Our small tank contains a Cambondian Fighter fish; White Cloud Mountain minnow; Albino cories; a mix of snails & a rogue guppy or two.

              I'll add some photos into my folder Jasmine

               

              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57254 From: adonaikam Date: 3/21/2018
              Subject: Looking for advice / help with ideas on Outside pond

              Hi


              My husband and I have moved house and we are thinking of putting in a pond outside but are lost for ideas. We don't have acreage so it has to be a fairly well small pond but we would like to incorporate the idea of a river bed and the water being filtered through the soil/plants without having to install a filter.


              Has anyone done anything like this before and if so, do you have any photos

              Any ideas would be great.


              Also, I did add this same note to the facebook page.


              Many thanks

              and regards

              Jasmine

              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57255 From: sevenspringss Date: 3/22/2018
              Subject: Re: Looking for advice / help with ideas on Outside pond
              Hi Jasmine,
               
              As it appears you've had a pond before, I may not need to tell you much more about them, but to try to see you have the better chance for success I'll just touch on a few things.  As for incorporating a river bed theme, it certainly has been done before although I don't have this idea added to my pond so I have no such photos of this to show. 
               
              I'd first like to advise you that where you locate your pond has everything to do with how much algae you might expect, how much water lily blooming you'll get and how much surface plant cover you'd need to prevent the greater chance for algae.  Best position for a pond is where it will receive from at least 4 to about 6 hours of sun, but not too much more.  Some water lilies need only about 4 hours of sun to bloom, but others require a minimum of 6 hours of sun to bloom freely.  Much more sun than this only invites suspended algae to multiply, turning the water green, in which case an ultra-violet unit accompanying a filter system would be of help. but by your message it appears you're not planning to install a conventional filter.     
               
              To further protect against algae blooms, the pond surface should be covered by some form (any mixture) of floating aquatic plants, to the extent of about 60% of the surface having plant material; this includes the leaves of any water lilies you may be adding to the pond.  These floating plants may include Water Hyacinth, Water Lettuce, Salvinia, Azolla, Duckweed, or any other similar floating plants.  For best water lily grow, they should not be positioned too near to flowing water -- like a water fall, this planned steam inlet or especially not near a fountain as they don't like having their leaves wet for extended periods of time when continually sprinkled by fountains, nor do they especially like a continually undulating water surface.. 
               
              If you're in an area that may be visited by raccoons or Blue Heron or any other type of fish predator, it's best not to have the pond edges slope off slowly where these predators can wade in to get fish, but instead, have the edge pf the pond drop off more steeply to prevent predators from doing just that.  Too, and again to discourage predators, but also to provide winter refuge if you're in a range where ice forms on the pond in Winter, build the pond to a depth of at least 3' where fish will be well out of reach for any predator.  While the entire bottom needn't be 3' deep., a good portion of the bottom should be at this depth.  
               
               
              I don't know how large of an area you have to build a pond and also include a section of stream, or even what size pond you have in mind.  By the water "being filtered through soil," I'm assuming you mean sand in several depressed sections of the stream so as not to have this filter medium washed into the pond (or cloud the water as soil would be expected to do).  One of the best plants to be used for oxygenating purposes as well as for nitrogenous waste consumption in the slower (slightly deeper) sections of the stream would be Hornwort, although since it has no actual root system but drifts in mid-water, some system of keeping it in place -- such as some green netting or several strands of green nylon string stretched across the stream would be needed to keep it in place.   
               
              Ray
               
               
               
              In a message dated 3/21/2018 10:36:53 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
               

              Hi


              My husband and I have moved house and we are thinking of putting in a pond outside but are lost for ideas. We don't have acreage so it has to be a fairly well small pond but we would like to incorporate the idea of a river bed and the water being filtered through the soil/plants without having to install a filter.


              Has anyone done anything like this before and if so, do you have any photos

              Any ideas would be great.


              Also, I did add this same note to the facebook page.


              Many thanks

              and regards

              Jasmine

               
              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57256 From: jett07002 Date: 3/22/2018
              Subject: Discus
              Hello All:

              Haven't written or read messages for quite awhile.

              I used to raise Discus in my earlier years, but all the water adjustments just seems like too much
              work for me now.
              I was thinking of having some now -  I love this fish, it is beautiful - but it hard for me to care for them
              and I didn't think it was fair to the fish not to have the elements it needed to be comfortable.
              A conversation with someone "in the know" suggested acclimating them to my water parameters and they would be fine.  How much "in the know" this fellow was I don't know so I am throwing out the question
              to my fellow fish enthusiast.  What do you think?
              I live in New Jersey and the water here is around 7.5-7.6 out of the tap and hard.
              If this works, I may breed them, I may not.  I don't care.  I like the fish so much I just want the satisfaction
              of having them, but I don't want to cause them problems.

              Joe T.


              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57257 From: sevenspringss Date: 3/22/2018
              Subject: Re: Discus
              Joe,
               
              Good to hear from you; there's always someone at this end who'll retrieve your messages and give you a reply  Now, for starters, while you may have a different water supplier than the one I have in mind, your parameters out of the tap suggests you have Suez Water Company (used to be United water Company, and originally Hackensack Water Company).  Most other New Jersey water suppliers have slightly more moderate water, with some even having somewhat soft water even though alkaline.  Those companies raise the pH chemically to preserve their infrastructure.   
               
              Getting right to your issues, yes, most (even if not all) fish, including Discus, can be acclimated to conditions other than what they prefer and other than what they evolved in -- ESPECIALLY the tank raised ones (not the wild ones) -- and while there's no reason not to believe that you can't comfortably maintain them, they can't be expected to breed in the conditions you've given us.  Too, the eggs definitely won't hatch in those conditions you've outlined.  As it appears that breeding them is something you can live without, I see no reason why you still can't have a nice tank of them just to enjoy.  For that matter, you may still want to do some minor adjusting to the water to make the fish even more comfortable, but still accepting the fact you'll not be raising any.
               
              Have you given any thought to using an R/O (reverse osmosis) unit?  Then too, there are water softener pillows to be added to the filter to decrease the hardness, but as you may already know, the exchange resins they contain are charged to swap sodium ions for calcium and magnesium ions, resulting in your having the same conductivity level -- and Discus eggs require not much more the 90 microseimens to be able to hatch.  That's equivilent to approximately 3 o GH.  As the conductivity gets higher though, this precludes Discus eggs from hatching.  As you used to raise Discus, I'm sure you're familiar with this.
               
              Before going out to any aquarium shop and buying the first Discus that strikes your eye, however, you really should buy this species with much more care than you would with many other tropical fishes.  While there are shops they do stock quite healthy Discus, buying them indiscriminately and not having them succeed, you may feel it was your water supply which was to blame, when it could have been one of a myriad of other issues including the condition of the fish themselves.  For the best chance of success with keeping Discus, unless you know the fish you're buying and the aquarist who reared them, I'd recommend your purchasing them from a top recognized and reliable Discus breeder who's universally known for quality fish -- and, except that the breeder you may happen to chose may require a trip to reach him, these aquarists aren't any more expensive than your local fish store.  I could suggest some breeders (I use to breed Discus myself), but you may feel I'm pointing out favorites because of them being friends or because of them being known to me more closely than others.  Hope you choose the path that gives you the most satisfaction.  Feel free to get back here if you need more info.  Best of luck in your endeavors.
               
              Ray
               
               
               
              In a message dated 3/22/2018 3:54:34 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com writes:
               

              Hello All:

              Haven't written or read messages for quite awhile.

              I used to raise Discus in my earlier years, but all the water adjustments just seems like too much
              work for me now.
              I was thinking of having some now -  I love this fish, it is beautiful - but it hard for me to care for them
              and I didn't think it was fair to the fish not to have the elements it needed to be comfortable.
              A conversation with someone "in the know" suggested acclimating them to my water parameters and they would be fine.  How much "in the know" this fellow was I don't know so I am throwing out the question
              to my fellow fish enthusiast.  What do you think?
              I live in New Jersey and the water here is around 7.5-7.6 out of the tap and hard.
              If this works, I may breed them, I may not.  I don't care.  I like the fish so much I just want the satisfaction
              of having them, but I don't want to cause them problems.

              Joe T.


              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57258 From: adonaikam Date: 3/22/2018
              Subject: Re: Discus
              Hi Joe

              I live in Canberra Australia so I may not be of help but I was discussing the option of having discus with the lady that we got to do aquascapping in our tank just a few days ago.  She suggested against it for us only because we have tetras, cory, cambodian fighter fish and Koi angle fish (between two tanks - not all in the same tank of course) 

              She advised (for us) that they were harder to keep than the angles and the water would also need to be different.  She went on to say that she rescued an angle fish that had been living in the same tank as discuss, the angles had been nipped and stressed out by the other fish but is now doing really well.

              I'm not up with discus but absolutely love them but they do require certain type of water to be happy and healthy. 

              All the best with your decision on what you end up doing.

              Regards
              Jasmine
              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57259 From: adonaikam Date: 3/22/2018
              Subject: Re: Looking for advice / help with ideas on Outside pond
              Hi Ray

              Thank you so very much for all the advice some of which I had not though of.
              I did try adding some photos the other day but they didn't seem to get added so I am unsure why.  Anyway, we live in and we wouldn't have any issues with the animals you outlined however we do have others the could cause issues.

              We are thinking of placing the pond under camelia trees on the south side of the house.  Here the sun rises in the east and sets in the west.  The sunniest side of the house is the North side so the pond wouldn't get a lot of direct sun.  We would need to place somesort of canopy over the pond to capture any leaves and flower petals that may fall.

              Regards
              Jasmine
              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57260 From: Raymond Wetzel Date: 3/22/2018
              Subject: Re: Looking for advice / help with ideas on Outside pond
              Hi again, Jasmine,

              The predators I mentioned would only be found in North Americas, and particularly, in the States.  I wasn't aware you're from "Down Under."  Other than these animals, everything else remains the same.  You still need to keep in mind any predators you have near you.  I'm not sure that positioning the pond under the trees would be quite prudent.  Generally, it's advised not to have a pond in that area, primarily because of the leaves and other debris you'd need to contend with, but as you're planning to hang some sort of canopy over it, it appears it should work out for the best.  Still, it's not the usual site as most pondkeepers prefer to keep a more open area about their ponds instead of having such protective guarding hanging above it.  As an alternative, can you build the pond adjacent to the south side of the house, where it will get sun only for those mid-day hours as the sun rises to the height to shine over your roof, to fall onto your pond during those hours?  It would be somewhat shaded by the house earlier and then later in the day, as the sun rises and then falls.  You'd need to estimate how far the sun will reach in the south side of your house (over your roof) in December, being the longest days.

              Getting back to building the pond under the trees, would you be having problems with running into tree roots as you dig?  Just something to think about. 

              Ray        


              -----Original Message-----
              From: adonaikam@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
              To: AquaticLife <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Thu, Mar 22, 2018 7:11 pm
              Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Looking for advice / help with ideas on Outside pond

               

              Hi Ray

              Thank you so very much for all the advice some of which I had not though of.
              I did try adding some photos the other day but they didn't seem to get added so I am unsure why.  Anyway, we live in and we wouldn't have any issues with the animals you outlined however we do have others the could cause issues.

              We are thinking of placing the pond under camelia trees on the south side of the house.  Here the sun rises in the east and sets in the west.  The sunniest side of the house is the North side so the pond wouldn't get a lot of direct sun.  We would need to place somesort of canopy over the pond to capture any leaves and flower petals that may fall.

              Regards
              Jasmine

              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57261 From: Harry Perry Date: 5/18/2018
              Subject: Bettas
              Is any one here breeding Bettas?.

              I have one successful spawn in a grow out tank but I can't seem to get another one going.

              I've tried everything I could find on You Tube and Google.

              I get as far as a bubble nest and that's it. So I just stopped everything for now and am working on reconditioning the fish. Any suggestions or tricks would be greatly appreciated.

              Harry
              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57262 From: Raymond Wetzel Date: 5/19/2018
              Subject: Re: Bettas
              Not breeding Bettas at this time, but "tricks" never go out of date.  I started breeding Bettas about 65 years ago, and except that the recommended first foods for the fry was animalculae (infusoria) at that that time, not too much else is different.  More recently, newly-hatched brine shrimp is used as the first food for the fry, even though some fry may not be able to handle it (the brine shrimp being to large of a food) and will starve out.  I always use San Francisco Bay brine shrimp eggs as the nauplii are smaller than the Utah-Great Salt Lake nauplii.  This can be alternated with mikro-worms.  Care must be used to clean off the bottom of uneaten brine shrimp nauplii and uneaten micro-worms, which naturally fall to the bottom anyway.  I always use 10 gallon tanks to breed them in, although you could go bigger, especially as it more convenient to just remove the male after he's no longer needed, and raise the fry right in this same tank.  A bit of Acriflavin helps prevent egg fungus, which can be removed with a filter of carbon before the fry are roaming freely through the tank.  There are two ways to maintain the both sexes while they're being condition; one way is to have the female in a large half-full glass jar floating in the breeding tank and the other way is to just use a glass divider with the male and female on opposite sides of the partition.  I've always preferred to use the glass divider, although sometimes the male may build his nest next to it which presents a problem when removing the partition to allow the female to join the male.  Normally. the females stripes are horizontal, at which time she should never be in with the male as this indicates she's not in condition to spawn (she has too few eggs).  The best way to condition the both fish up for spawning is to feed them protein-rich live foods, such as live Blackworms.  Frozen (thawed) foods are good too, but not quite as good as live foods, although quality frozen bloodworms is an excellent food for any fish that are large enough to eat them.  It can take about 10 days (or up to two weeks) to properly condition the female to the point where she's full of eggs, but usually sooner.  You'll see her stripes turn from horizontal to vertical ("V's") -- like, >>>>>>> -- at which time she'll show a marked interest in the male in trying to get to him.  Her vent will also show a white "button"at this time.  The water depth should preferably no be much more than 9'" or 10" at the most, to make it easier for the male to retrieve the falling eggs; this too, to make it easy for him to retrieve any fry which will be falling from the nest.  The female should be removed shortly after breeding is done, of course.  The tank should always be completely covered to encourage warm humid conditions over the water surface to best retain the bubble nest's condition.  Water temperature is kept at 80 o F.  The cover on the tank (I use a glass pane) must be kept on when raising the fry especially at the time they're developing their labyrinth system, as they'll then be taking in air; the air shouldn't be very much different in temperature than the water temperature.  A sponge filter may be used -- or just an airstone with a slight release of air.  With any other filter, the fry will likely get trapped in it until they get a bit larger, at which time an air-operated bottom filter can be used.  The male juveniles will need to be put in separate jars as the start to grow into maturity.      

              Ray            


              -----Original Message-----
              From: Harry Perry harryfisherman@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
              To: AquaticLife <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Sat, May 19, 2018 12:18 am
              Subject: [AquaticLife] Bettas

               

              Is any one here breeding Bettas?.

              I have one successful spawn in a grow out tank but I can't seem to get another one going.

              I've tried everything I could find on You Tube and Google.

              I get as far as a bubble nest and that's it. So I just stopped everything for now and am working on reconditioning the fish. Any suggestions or tricks would be greatly appreciated.

              Harry

              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57263 From: Harry Perry Date: 5/19/2018
              Subject: Ray....Re: [AquaticLife] Bettas
              Thank you soo much for your response. A lot of golden nuggets of wisdom in your post which I will save.

              Thanks again

              Harry


              --------------------------------------------
              On Sat, 5/19/18, Raymond Wetzel sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

              Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Bettas
              To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Saturday, May 19, 2018, 11:25 AM


               









              Not breeding Bettas
              at this time, but "tricks" never go out of date. 
              I started breeding Bettas about 65 years ago, and except
              that the recommended first foods for the fry was animalculae
              (infusoria) at that that time, not too much else is
              different.  More recently, newly-hatched brine shrimp is
              used as the first food for the fry, even though some fry may
              not be able to handle it (the brine shrimp being to large of
              a food) and will starve out.  I always use San Francisco
              Bay brine shrimp eggs as the nauplii are smaller than the
              Utah-Great Salt Lake nauplii..  This can be alternated with
              mikro-worms.  Care must be used to clean off the bottom of
              uneaten brine shrimp nauplii and uneaten micro-worms, which
              naturally fall to the bottom anyway.  I always use 10
              gallon tanks to breed them in, although you could go bigger,
              especially as it more convenient to just remove the male
              after he's no longer needed, and raise the fry right in
              this same tank.  A bit of Acriflavin helps prevent egg
              fungus, which can be removed with a filter of carbon before
              the fry are roaming freely through the tank.  There are two
              ways to maintain the both sexes while they're being
              condition; one way is to have the female in a large
              half-full glass jar floating in the breeding tank and the
              other way is to just use a glass divider with the male and
              female on opposite sides of the partition.  I've always
              preferred to use the glass divider, although sometimes the
              male may build his nest next to it which presents a problem
              when removing the partition to allow the female to join the
              male.  Normally. the females stripes are horizontal, at
              which time she should never be in with the male as this
              indicates she's not in condition to spawn (she has too
              few eggs).  The best way to condition the both fish up for
              spawning is to feed them protein-rich live foods, such as
              live Blackworms.  Frozen (thawed) foods are good too, but
              not quite as good as live foods, although quality frozen
              bloodworms is an excellent food for any fish that are large
              enough to eat them.  It can take about 10 days (or up to
              two weeks) to properly condition the female to the point
              where she's full of eggs, but usually sooner. 
              You'll see her stripes turn from horizontal to vertical
              ("V's") -- like, >>>>>>>
              -- at which time she'll show a marked interest in the
              male in trying to get to him.  Her vent will also show a
              white "button"at this time.  The water depth
              should preferably no be much more than 9'" or
              10" at the most, to make it easier for the male to
              retrieve the falling eggs; this too, to make it easy for him
              to retrieve any fry which will be falling from the nest. 
              The female should be removed shortly after breeding is done,
              of course.  The tank should always be completely covered to
              encourage warm humid conditions over the water surface to
              best retain the bubble nest's condition.  Water
              temperature is kept at 80 o F.  The cover on the tank (I
              use a glass pane) must be kept on when raising the fry
              especially at the time they're developing their
              labyrinth system, as they'll then be taking in air; the
              air shouldn't be very much different in temperature than
              the water temperature.  A sponge filter may be used -- or
              just an airstone with a slight release of air.  With any
              other filter, the fry will likely get trapped in it until
              they get a bit larger, at which time an air-operated bottom
              filter can be used.  The male juveniles will need to be put
              in separate jars as the start to grow into maturity.    
               

              Ray            



              -----Original Message-----
              From: Harry Perry harryfisherman@...
              [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
              To: AquaticLife
              <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent:
              Sat, May 19, 2018 12:18 am
              Subject:
              [AquaticLife] Bettas




               









              Is any one here breeding Bettas?.



              I have one successful spawn in a grow out tank but I
              can't seem to get another one going.



              I've tried everything I could find on You Tube and
              Google.



              I get as far as a bubble nest and that's it. So I just
              stopped everything for now and am working on reconditioning
              the fish. Any suggestions or tricks would be greatly
              appreciated.



              Harry
              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57264 From: Raymond Wetzel Date: 5/20/2018
              Subject: Re: Ray....Re: [AquaticLife] Bettas
              Harry,

              I'm glad to be of help, if I was.  I hope I touched on and clarified some issues you may have been having.  If you're aware of any other problems you may be having in breeding these fish, please let me know and I'll try to solve them.  Usually, when the issue is that you're not getting any actual breeding taking place, it's just that the female isn't yet ripe with eggs.  When she's heavy with eggs, there's no reluctance on her part to be eager to join the male for mating.  If she's not ready, she runs the other way when the male approaches her, with him in hot pursuit and tearing up her fins.  Also, but much less important, Bettas prefer somewhat soft and at least slightly acid water, but I've breed them in water with a hardness of 11 DGH and at pH 7.6.  The water parameter preference is primarily for wild type Bettas, but this is just to show what the species tends to prefer, in case your water is much different than what they evolved in, and in what direction you'd need to change your water chemistry if it were very different.  If you don't have access to live foods, frozen is the next best thing although still not essential.  In the wild, mosquito larva is one of their main sources of nutrients, which is why blood worms are ideal.  Good flake food (not those with fillers) and "Betta-bits" will condition your fish for breeding although it will take longer (and your spawns may not be as large).  

              Ray



              -----Original Message-----
              From: Harry Perry harryfisherman@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
              To: AquaticLife <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Sun, May 20, 2018 2:23 am
              Subject: Ray....Re: [AquaticLife] Bettas

               
              Thank you soo much for your response. A lot of golden nuggets of wisdom in your post which I will save.

              Thanks again

              Harry

              --------------------------------------------
              On Sat, 5/19/18, Raymond Wetzel sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

              Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Bettas
              To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Saturday, May 19, 2018, 11:25 AM


               









              Not breeding Bettas
              at this time, but "tricks" never go out of date. 
              I started breeding Bettas about 65 years ago, and except
              that the recommended first foods for the fry was animalculae
              (infusoria) at that that time, not too much else is
              different.  More recently, newly-hatched brine shrimp is
              used as the first food for the fry, even though some fry may
              not be able to handle it (the brine shrimp being to large of
              a food) and will starve out.  I always use San Francisco
              Bay brine shrimp eggs as the nauplii are smaller than the
              Utah-Great Salt Lake nauplii..  This can be alternated with
              mikro-worms.  Care must be used to clean off the bottom of
              uneaten brine shrimp nauplii and uneaten micro-worms, which
              naturally fall to the bottom anyway.  I always use 10
              gallon tanks to breed them in, although you could go bigger,
              especially as it more convenient to just remove the male
              after he's no longer needed, and raise the fry right in
              this same tank.  A bit of Acriflavin helps prevent egg
              fungus, which can be removed with a filter of carbon before
              the fry are roaming freely through the tank.  There are two
              ways to maintain the both sexes while they're being
              condition; one way is to have the female in a large
              half-full glass jar floating in the breeding tank and the
              other way is to just use a glass divider with the male and
              female on opposite sides of the partition.  I've always
              preferred to use the glass divider, although sometimes the
              male may build his nest next to it which presents a problem
              when removing the partition to allow the female to join the
              male.  Normally. the females stripes are horizontal, at
              which time she should never be in with the male as this
              indicates she's not in condition to spawn (she has too
              few eggs).  The best way to condition the both fish up for
              spawning is to feed them protein-rich live foods, such as
              live Blackworms.  Frozen (thawed) foods are good too, but
              not quite as good as live foods, although quality frozen
              bloodworms is an excellent food for any fish that are large
              enough to eat them.  It can take about 10 days (or up to
              two weeks) to properly condition the female to the point
              where she's full of eggs, but usually sooner. 
              You'll see her stripes turn from horizontal to vertical
              ("V's") -- like, >>>>>>>
              -- at which time she'll show a marked interest in the
              male in trying to get to him.  Her vent will also show a
              white "button"at this time.  The water depth
              should preferably no be much more than 9'" or
              10" at the most, to make it easier for the male to
              retrieve the falling eggs; this too, to make it easy for him
              to retrieve any fry which will be falling from the nest. 
              The female should be removed shortly after breeding is done,
              of course.  The tank should always be completely covered to
              encourage warm humid conditions over the water surface to
              best retain the bubble nest's condition.  Water
              temperature is kept at 80 o F.  The cover on the tank (I
              use a glass pane) must be kept on when raising the fry
              especially at the time they're developing their
              labyrinth system, as they'll then be taking in air; the
              air shouldn't be very much different in temperature than
              the water temperature.  A sponge filter may be used -- or
              just an airstone with a slight release of air.  With any
              other filter, the fry will likely get trapped in it until
              they get a bit larger, at which time an air-operated bottom
              filter can be used.  The male juveniles will need to be put
              in separate jars as the start to grow into maturity.    
               

              Ray            



              -----Original Message-----
              From: Harry Perry harryfisherman@...
              [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
              To: AquaticLife
              <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent:
              Sat, May 19, 2018 12:18 am
              Subject:
              [AquaticLife] Bettas




               









              Is any one here breeding Bettas?.



              I have one successful spawn in a grow out tank but I
              can't seem to get another one going.



              I've tried everything I could find on You Tube and
              Google.



              I get as far as a bubble nest and that's it. So I just
              stopped everything for now and am working on reconditioning
              the fish. Any suggestions or tricks would be greatly
              appreciated.



              Harry





























              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57265 From: Harry Perry Date: 5/20/2018
              Subject: Ray..again [AquaticLife] Bettas
              From your vast experience does the male actually sense the female is not ready or is just going by visual ques. I.E. I had a female that looked like she was ready to breed. Saw the egg spot, swollen abdomen etc. however in realty she was developing eggs but not ready to spawn but looked that way because she was bloated. I treated with Epsom salt and now she is fine and I can tell where she is really at in terns of breeding readiness. I suspect this happens a lot with beginning breeders.

              Harry




              --------------------------------------------
              On Sun, 5/20/18, Raymond Wetzel sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

              Subject: Re: Ray....Re: [AquaticLife] Bettas
              To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Sunday, May 20, 2018, 3:20 AM


               



               


                 
                   
                   
                    Harry,



              I'm glad to be of help, if I was.  I hope I touched on
              and clarified some issues you may have been having.  If
              you're aware of any other problems you may be having in
              breeding these fish, please let me know and I'll try to
              solve them.  Usually, when the issue is that you're not
              getting any actual breeding taking place, it's just that
              the female isn't yet ripe with eggs.  When she's
              heavy with eggs, there's no reluctance on her part to be
              eager to join the male for mating.  If she's not ready,
              she runs the other way when the male approaches her, with
              him in hot pursuit and tearing up her fins.  Also, but much
              less important, Bettas prefer somewhat soft and at least
              slightly acid water, but I've breed them in water with a
              hardness of 11 DGH and at pH 7.6.  The water parameter
              preference is primarily for wild type Bettas, but this is
              just to show what the species tends to prefer, in case your
              water is much different than what they evolved in, and in
              what direction you'd need to change your water chemistry
              if it were very different.  If you don't have access to
              live foods, frozen is the next best thing although still not
              essential.  In the wild, mosquito larva is one of their
              main sources of nutrients, which is why blood worms are
              ideal.  Good flake food (not those with fillers) and
              "Betta-bits" will condition your fish for breeding
              although it will take longer (and your spawns may not be as
              large).  



              Ray


               



               



               



              -----Original
              Message-----

              From: Harry Perry harryfisherman@... [AquaticLife]
              <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>

              To: AquaticLife <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>

              Sent: Sun, May 20, 2018 2:23 am

              Subject: Ray....Re: [AquaticLife] Bettas








               




               



                 

                   
                   
                   
              Thank you soo much for your response. A lot of golden
              nuggets of wisdom in your post which I will save.





              Thanks again





              Harry





              --------------------------------------------


              On Sat, 5/19/18, Raymond Wetzel sevenspringss1@...
              [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
              wrote:





              Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Bettas


                To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups..com


                Date: Saturday, May 19, 2018, 11:25 AM


               


               


                 


               


               


               


                 


               


               


                   


                     


                     


                      Not breeding Bettas


                at this time, but "tricks" never go out of
              date. 


                I started breeding Bettas about 65 years ago, and except


                that the recommended first foods for the fry was
              animalculae


                (infusoria) at that that time, not too much else is


                different.  More recently, newly-hatched brine shrimp
              is


                used as the first food for the fry, even though some fry
              may


                not be able to handle it (the brine shrimp being to large
              of


                a food) and will starve out.  I always use San
              Francisco


                Bay brine shrimp eggs as the nauplii are smaller than
              the


                Utah-Great Salt Lake nauplii..  This can be alternated
              with


                mikro-worms.  Care must be used to clean off the bottom
              of


                uneaten brine shrimp nauplii and uneaten micro-worms,
              which


                naturally fall to the bottom anyway.  I always use 10


                gallon tanks to breed them in, although you could go
              bigger,


                especially as it more convenient to just remove the male


                after he's no longer needed, and raise the fry right
              in


                this same tank.  A bit of Acriflavin helps prevent egg


                fungus, which can be removed with a filter of carbon
              before


                the fry are roaming freely through the tank.  There are
              two


                ways to maintain the both sexes while they're being


                condition; one way is to have the female in a large


                half-full glass jar floating in the breeding tank and
              the


                other way is to just use a glass divider with the male
              and


                female on opposite sides of the partition.  I've
              always


                preferred to use the glass divider, although sometimes
              the


                male may build his nest next to it which presents a
              problem


                when removing the partition to allow the female to join
              the


                male.  Normally. the females stripes are horizontal, at


                which time she should never be in with the male as this


                indicates she's not in condition to spawn (she has
              too


                few eggs).  The best way to condition the both fish up
              for


                spawning is to feed them protein-rich live foods, such
              as


                live Blackworms.  Frozen (thawed) foods are good too,
              but


                not quite as good as live foods, although quality frozen


                bloodworms is an excellent food for any fish that are
              large


                enough to eat them.  It can take about 10 days (or up
              to


                two weeks) to properly condition the female to the point


                where she's full of eggs, but usually sooner. 


                You'll see her stripes turn from horizontal to
              vertical


                ("V's") -- like,
              >>>>>>>


                -- at which time she'll show a marked interest in
              the


                male in trying to get to him.  Her vent will also show
              a


                white "button"at this time.  The water depth


                should preferably no be much more than 9'" or


                10" at the most, to make it easier for the male to


                retrieve the falling eggs; this too, to make it easy for
              him


                to retrieve any fry which will be falling from the
              nest. 


                The female should be removed shortly after breeding is
              done,


                of course.  The tank should always be completely covered
              to


                encourage warm humid conditions over the water surface
              to


                best retain the bubble nest's condition.  Water


                temperature is kept at 80 o F.  The cover on the tank
              (I


                use a glass pane) must be kept on when raising the fry


                especially at the time they're developing their


                labyrinth system, as they'll then be taking in air;
              the


                air shouldn't be very much different in temperature
              than


                the water temperature.  A sponge filter may be used --
              or


                just an airstone with a slight release of air.  With
              any


                other filter, the fry will likely get trapped in it
              until


                they get a bit larger, at which time an air-operated
              bottom


                filter can be used.  The male juveniles will need to be
              put


                in separate jars as the start to grow into maturity.  
               


                 


               


                Ray            


               


               


               


                -----Original Message-----


                From: Harry Perry harryfisherman@...


                [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>


                To: AquaticLife


                <AquaticLife@yahoogroups..com>


                Sent:


                Sat, May 19, 2018 12:18 am


                Subject:


                [AquaticLife] Bettas


               


               


               


               


                 


               


               


               


                 


               


               


                   


                     


                     


                      Is any one here breeding Bettas?.


               


               


               


                I have one successful spawn in a grow out tank but I


                can't seem to get another one going.


               


               


               


                I've tried everything I could find on You Tube and


                Google.


               


               


               


                I get as far as a bubble nest and that's it. So I
              just


                stopped everything for now and am working on
              reconditioning


                the fish. Any suggestions or tricks would be greatly


                appreciated.


               


               


               


                Harry


               


               


               


                   


                   


               


                   


                   


               


               


               


               


               


               


                 


               


               


               


               


               


               


               


               


               


                   


                   


               


                   


                 





                 

                   

                 
                 








               













                 
                   

                 
                 



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              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57266 From: Raymond Wetzel Date: 5/20/2018
              Subject: Re: Ray..again [AquaticLife] Bettas
              It's not so much that the male "senses" the female is not ready, but that her actions of going in the opposite direction blatantly show him that she doesn't want to (is not ready to) breed with him.  Much like a guy (a person) asking a girl if she'd want to go out on a date and she turns him down.  He more than "senses" the girl doesn't want to be with him -- she's shown him by her refusal to go out on a date with him, that she wants no part of him.  Perhaps too, that the female Betta has horizontal stripes when she's not carrying eggs, this may give the male the clue of him sensing she's not ready just by this physical sign.

              So, this female Betta with a swollen abdomen was not really heavy with eggs, it would seem.  Her actions then, as the male approached her, would have shown him that she was not ready -- despite the fact that she appeared ready (full of eggs) to you, while she wasn't really full of eggs.  While I have no way of knowing for certain, and since she was only bloated and really wasn't full of eggs, I might guess that her stripes hadn't changed from horizontal to vertical.  This visual sign alone (but along with her behavior) may have shown the male she wasn't full with eggs and ready to breed.  I know of no other way the male would sense she was not ready, than by her physical appearance and her response to his advances.

              Ray


              -----Original Message-----
              From: Harry Perry harryfisherman@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
              To: AquaticLife <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Sun, May 20, 2018 3:41 am
              Subject: Ray..again [AquaticLife] Bettas

               
              From your vast experience does the male actually sense the female is not ready or is just going by visual ques. I.E. I had a female that looked like she was ready to breed. Saw the egg spot, swollen abdomen etc. however in realty she was developing eggs but not ready to spawn but looked that way because she was bloated. I treated with Epsom salt and now she is fine and I can tell where she is really at in terns of breeding readiness. I suspect this happens a lot with beginning breeders.

              Harry

              --------------------------------------------
              On Sun, 5/20/18, Raymond Wetzel sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

              Subject: Re: Ray....Re: [AquaticLife] Bettas
              To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Sunday, May 20, 2018, 3:20 AM


               



               


                 
                   
                   
                    Harry,



              I'm glad to be of help, if I was.  I hope I touched on
              and clarified some issues you may have been having.  If
              you're aware of any other problems you may be having in
              breeding these fish, please let me know and I'll try to
              solve them.  Usually, when the issue is that you're not
              getting any actual breeding taking place, it's just that
              the female isn't yet ripe with eggs.  When she's
              heavy with eggs, there's no reluctance on her part to be
              eager to join the male for mating.  If she's not ready,
              she runs the other way when the male approaches her, with
              him in hot pursuit and tearing up her fins.  Also, but much
              less important, Bettas prefer somewhat soft and at least
              slightly acid water, but I've breed them in water with a
              hardness of 11 DGH and at pH 7.6.  The water parameter
              preference is primarily for wild type Bettas, but this is
              just to show what the species tends to prefer, in case your
              water is much different than what they evolved in, and in
              what direction you'd need to change your water chemistry
              if it were very different.  If you don't have access to
              live foods, frozen is the next best thing although still not
              essential.  In the wild, mosquito larva is one of their
              main sources of nutrients, which is why blood worms are
              ideal.  Good flake food (not those with fillers) and
              "Betta-bits" will condition your fish for breeding
              although it will take longer (and your spawns may not be as
              large).  



              Ray


               



               



               



              -----Original
              Message-----

              From: Harry Perry harryfisherman@... [AquaticLife]
              <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>

              To: AquaticLife <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>

              Sent: Sun, May 20, 2018 2:23 am

              Subject: Ray....Re: [AquaticLife] Bettas








               




               



                 

                   
                   
                   
              Thank you soo much for your response. A lot of golden
              nuggets of wisdom in your post which I will save.





              Thanks again





              Harry





              --------------------------------------------


              On Sat, 5/19/18, Raymond Wetzel sevenspringss1@...
              [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
              wrote:





              Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Bettas


                To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups..com


                Date: Saturday, May 19, 2018, 11:25 AM


               


               


                 


               


               


               


                 


               


               


                   


                     


                     


                      Not breeding Bettas


                at this time, but "tricks" never go out of
              date. 


                I started breeding Bettas about 65 years ago, and except


                that the recommended first foods for the fry was
              animalculae


                (infusoria) at that that time, not too much else is


                different.  More recently, newly-hatched brine shrimp
              is


                used as the first food for the fry, even though some fry
              may


                not be able to handle it (the brine shrimp being to large
              of


                a food) and will starve out.  I always use San
              Francisco


                Bay brine shrimp eggs as the nauplii are smaller than
              the


                Utah-Great Salt Lake nauplii..  This can be alternated
              with


                mikro-worms.  Care must be used to clean off the bottom
              of


                uneaten brine shrimp nauplii and uneaten micro-worms,
              which


                naturally fall to the bottom anyway.  I always use 10


                gallon tanks to breed them in, although you could go
              bigger,


                especially as it more convenient to just remove the male


                after he's no longer needed, and raise the fry right
              in


                this same tank.  A bit of Acriflavin helps prevent egg


                fungus, which can be removed with a filter of carbon
              before


                the fry are roaming freely through the tank.  There are
              two


                ways to maintain the both sexes while they're being


                condition; one way is to have the female in a large


                half-full glass jar floating in the breeding tank and
              the


                other way is to just use a glass divider with the male
              and


                female on opposite sides of the partition.  I've
              always


                preferred to use the glass divider, although sometimes
              the


                male may build his nest next to it which presents a
              problem


                when removing the partition to allow the female to join
              the


                male.  Normally. the females stripes are horizontal, at


                which time she should never be in with the male as this


                indicates she's not in condition to spawn (she has
              too


                few eggs).  The best way to condition the both fish up
              for


                spawning is to feed them protein-rich live foods, such
              as


                live Blackworms.  Frozen (thawed) foods are good too,
              but


                not quite as good as live foods, although quality frozen


                bloodworms is an excellent food for any fish that are
              large


                enough to eat them.  It can take about 10 days (or up
              to


                two weeks) to properly condition the female to the point


                where she's full of eggs, but usually sooner. 


                You'll see her stripes turn from horizontal to
              vertical


                ("V's") -- like,
              >>>>>>>


                -- at which time she'll show a marked interest in
              the


                male in trying to get to him.  Her vent will also show
              a


                white "button"at this time.  The water depth


                should preferably no be much more than 9'" or


                10" at the most, to make it easier for the male to


                retrieve the falling eggs; this too, to make it easy for
              him


                to retrieve any fry which will be falling from the
              nest. 


                The female should be removed shortly after breeding is
              done,


                of course.  The tank should always be completely covered
              to


                encourage warm humid conditions over the water surface
              to


                best retain the bubble nest's condition.  Water


                temperature is kept at 80 o F.  The cover on the tank
              (I


                use a glass pane) must be kept on when raising the fry


                especially at the time they're developing their


                labyrinth system, as they'll then be taking in air;
              the


                air shouldn't be very much different in temperature
              than


                the water temperature.  A sponge filter may be used --
              or


                just an airstone with a slight release of air.  With
              any


                other filter, the fry will likely get trapped in it
              until


                they get a bit larger, at which time an air-operated
              bottom


                filter can be used.  The male juveniles will need to be
              put


                in separate jars as the start to grow into maturity.  
               


                 


               


                Ray            


               


               


               


                -----Original Message-----


                From: Harry Perry harryfisherman@...


                [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>


                To: AquaticLife


                <AquaticLife@yahoogroups..com>


                Sent:


                Sat, May 19, 2018 12:18 am


                Subject:


                [AquaticLife] Bettas


               


               


               


               


                 


               


               


               


                 


               


               


                   


                     


                     


                      Is any one here breeding Bettas?.


               


               


               


                I have one successful spawn in a grow out tank but I


                can't seem to get another one going.


               


               


               


                I've tried everything I could find on You Tube and


                Google.


               


               


               


                I get as far as a bubble nest and that's it. So I
              just


                stopped everything for now and am working on
              reconditioning


                the fish. Any suggestions or tricks would be greatly


                appreciated.


               


               


               


                Harry


               


               


               


                   


                   


               


                   


                   


               


               


               


               


               


               


                 


               


               


               


               


               


               


               


               


               


                   


                   


               


                   


                 





                 

                   

                 
                 








               













                 
                   

                 
                 



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              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57267 From: Harry Perry Date: 5/20/2018
              Subject: Re: Ray..again [AquaticLife] Bettas
              Thanks again.

              Harry
              --------------------------------------------
              On Sun, 5/20/18, Raymond Wetzel sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

              Subject: Re: Ray..again [AquaticLife] Bettas
              To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Sunday, May 20, 2018, 4:16 AM


               










              It's not so much that
              the male "senses" the female is not ready, but
              that her actions of going in the opposite direction
              blatantly show him that she doesn't want to (is not
              ready to) breed with him.  Much like a guy (a person)
              asking a girl if she'd want to go out on a date and she
              turns him down.  He more than "senses" the girl
              doesn't want to be with him -- she's shown him by
              her refusal to go out on a date with him, that she wants no
              part of him.  Perhaps too, that the female Betta has
              horizontal stripes when she's not carrying eggs, this
              may give the male the clue of him sensing she's not
              ready just by this physical sign.



              So, this female Betta with a swollen abdomen was not really
              heavy with eggs, it would seem.  Her actions then, as the
              male approached her, would have shown him that she was not
              ready -- despite the fact that she appeared ready (full of
              eggs) to you, while she wasn't really full of eggs. 
              While I have no way of knowing for certain, and since she
              was only bloated and really wasn't full of eggs, I might
              guess that her stripes hadn't changed from horizontal to
              vertical.  This visual sign alone (but along with her
              behavior) may have shown the male she wasn't full with
              eggs and ready to breed.  I know of no other way the male
              would sense she was not ready, than by her physical
              appearance and her response to his advances.



              Ray
              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57268 From: Harry Perry Date: 5/20/2018
              Subject: Ray....Re: [AquaticLife] Bettas
              I think I figured it out. You were right he female wasn't ready.
              I saw the egg spot and swollen abdomen and thought that she was ready. As it turns out she was developing eggs but she was also bloated. I treated with Epsom salt and she is fine. Then I continued with her conditioning.

              Thanks again for all your help.

              Harry



              --------------------------------------------
              On Sun, 5/20/18, Raymond Wetzel sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

              Subject: Re: Ray....Re: [AquaticLife] Bettas
              To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Sunday, May 20, 2018, 3:20 AM


               









              Harry,



              I'm glad to be of help, if I was.  I hope I touched on
              and clarified some issues you may have been having.  If
              you're aware of any other problems you may be having in
              breeding these fish, please let me know and I'll try to
              solve them.  Usually, when the issue is that you're not
              getting any actual breeding taking place, it's just that
              the female isn't yet ripe with eggs.  When she's
              heavy with eggs, there's no reluctance on her part to be
              eager to join the male for mating.  If she's not ready,
              she runs the other way when the male approaches her, with
              him in hot pursuit and tearing up her fins.  Also, but much
              less important, Bettas prefer somewhat soft and at least
              slightly acid water, but I've breed them in water with a
              hardness of 11 DGH and at pH 7.6.  The water parameter
              preference is primarily for wild type Bettas, but this is
              just to show what the species tends to prefer, in case your
              water is much different than what they evolved in, and in
              what direction you'd need to change your water chemistry
              if it were very different.  If you don't have access to
              live foods, frozen is the next best thing although still not
              essential.  In the wild, mosquito larva is one of their
              main sources of nutrients, which is why blood worms are
              ideal.  Good flake food (not those with fillers) and
              "Betta-bits" will condition your fish for breeding
              although it will take longer (and your spawns may not be as
              large).  



              Ray
              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57269 From: Harry Perry Date: 5/28/2018
              Subject: Old tank syndrome.
              So, you have a tank that's been running a while. Every ones fine. Water is clear and fish are eating and
              seem healthy. You haven't added any fish in a while so you add a new fish. The next day it's dead.

              Why ?????. I suspect this happens a lot in the hobby.......

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXXJ8UgM2kM

              Harry
              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57270 From: Raymond Wetzel Date: 5/28/2018
              Subject: Re: Old tank syndrome.
              Any number of reasons. 

              1) Was it introduced to the tank during lights-off in the evening, to help prevent other fish from picking on this disoriented new fish?  Then, there's the issue of size; if this fish was relatively small compared to the tank residents, it could well have been harassed by the other fish. 

              2) Was the water chemistry tested in this new fishes' water (bag water) to see how much different this water might be compared to the tank water?

              3)  Was the new fish acclimated long enough to the new water conditions/chemistry, by mixing the bag water with small additions of tank water over at least 30, to preferably 45 minutes -- and if the chemistry of both (bag & tank) water tests resulted in a larger than expected difference, was the new fish "dripped" in by putting the new fish and its water in a large container and allowing the tank water to drip into this container via a length of airline having a knot tied in it to slow the flow of water to a steady drip (taking perhaps more than an hour to acclimate the fish to the tank chemistry)? 

              4) Testing the water -- bag and tank -- for their chemistry, includes not only pH but GH, as well as preferably, for organic wastes (ammonia,nitrite and nitrate) to get a more complete picture of the water conditions.  Also, the bag water should never be added to the tank after acclimation of the fish.  There should be no reason to add it with the fish now being adequately acclimated.  

              Ray


              -----Original Message-----
              From: Harry Perry harryfisherman@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
              To: AquaticLife <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>; UniQuaria <UniQuaria@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Mon, May 28, 2018 3:23 pm
              Subject: [AquaticLife] Old tank syndrome.

               

              So, you have a tank that's been running a while. Every ones fine. Water is clear and fish are eating and
              seem healthy. You haven't added any fish in a while so you add a new fish. The next day it's dead.

              Why ?????. I suspect this happens a lot in the hobby.......

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXXJ8UgM2kM

              Harry

              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57271 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 6/9/2018
              Subject: Re: Old tank syndrome.

              Hi Everyone,

               My apologies for coming into this thread so late but I was clearing out my inbox & relaised I hadn't read it. Anyway-surely "Old Tank Syndrome" is a bit of a misnomer & should really be called "Not Looking After Your Fish Properly Syndrome"?

               John.

              On 28 May 2018 at 21:32 "Raymond Wetzel sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

               

               

              Any number of reasons. 

              1) Was it introduced to the tank during lights-off in the evening, to help prevent other fish from picking on this disoriented new fish?  Then, there's the issue of size; if this fish was relatively small compared to the tank residents, it could well have been harassed by the other fish. 

              2) Was the water chemistry tested in this new fishes' water (bag water) to see how much different this water might be compared to the tank water?

              3)  Was the new fish acclimated long enough to the new water conditions/chemistry, by mixing the bag water with small additions of tank water over at least 30, to preferably 45 minutes -- and if the chemistry of both (bag & tank) water tests resulted in a larger than expected difference, was the new fish "dripped" in by putting the new fish and its water in a large container and allowing the tank water to drip into this container via a length of airline having a knot tied in it to slow the flow of water to a steady drip (taking perhaps more than an hour to acclimate the fish to the tank chemistry)? 

              4) Testing the water -- bag and tank -- for their chemistry, includes not only pH but GH, as well as preferably, for organic wastes (ammonia,nitrite and nitrate) to get a more complete picture of the water conditions.  Also, the bag water should never be added to the tank after acclimation of the fish.  There should be no reason to add it with the fish now being adequately acclimated.  

              Ray


              -----Original Message-----
              From: Harry Perry harryfisherman@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
              To: AquaticLife <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>; UniQuaria <UniQuaria@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Mon, May 28, 2018 3:23 pm
              Subject: [AquaticLife] Old tank syndrome.

               

              So, you have a tank that's been running a while. Every ones fine. Water is clear and fish are eating and
              seem healthy. You haven't added any fish in a while so you add a new fish. The next day it's dead.

              Why ?????. I suspect this happens a lot in the hobby.......

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXXJ8UgM2kM

              Harry

               

               


               

               
              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57272 From: Harry Perry Date: 10/17/2019
              Subject: YAHOO GROUP CHANGES
              All Yahoo Group users should  NOTE CLEARLY that on Dec. 14th ALL uploaded content will be permanently DELETED!!!


              If you scroll up to the top of any Yahoo Group page, you will see the following message........:


              Attention: Starting December 14, 2019 Yahoo Groups will no longer host user created content on its sites. New content can no longer be uploaded after October 28, 2019. Sending/Receiving email functionality is not going away, you can continue to communicate via any email client with your group members. Learn More

              In the Learn More link above is the following text.....................:



              Understand what's changing in Yahoo Groups

              Yahoo has made the decision to no longer allow users to upload content to the Yahoo Groups site. Beginning October 28, you won't be able to upload any more content to the site, and as of December 14 all previously posted content on the site will be permanently removed. You'll have until that date to save anything you've uploaded.
              What features will go away?

                  Files
                  Polls
                  Links
                  Photos
                  Folders
                  Calendar
                  Database
                  Attachments
                  Conversations
                  Email Updates
                  Message Digest
                  Message History

              What will happen to the site?

              The Yahoo Groups site will continue to exist, however, all public groups will be made private or restricted. Any new group members will need to request an invite or be invited by an admin. Admins will still be able to manage various group settings, though some functionality will be limited.
              What will happen on October 28?

              On October 28, you will no longer be able to upload any content to the site. To share info with members of your groups, you'll continue to be able to do so via email.
              How can I keep my Yahoo Groups content?

              Photos and files can be saved right from the Yahoo Groups site, or you can download your data from the Privacy Dashboard.
              Will I be able to use Yahoo Groups going forward?

              You'll still be able to communicate with your groups via email and search for private groups on the site. In addition, admins will continue to have limited access to group settings and administration tools.


              https://help.yahoo.com/kb/groups/SLN31010.html?impressions=true
              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57273 From: Raymond Wetzel Date: 10/17/2019
              Subject: Re: YAHOO GROUP CHANGES



              -----Original Message-----
              From: Harry Perry harryfisherman@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
              To: Alternative_MedicineTriedandTrue <Alternative_MedicineTriedandTrue@yahoogroups.com>; antiqueoutboard-engines <antiqueoutboard-engines@yahoogroups.com>; aquariumclub2 <aquariumclub2@yahoogroups.com>; AquaticLife <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>; ArtAnonymous <ArtAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>; Artists-Who-Survive <Artists-Who-Survive@yahoogroups.com>; badis-dario <badis-dario@yahoogroups.com>; WatercolorWorkshop <WatercolorWorkshop@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Thu, Oct 17, 2019 1:35 pm
              Subject: [AquaticLife] YAHOO GROUP CHANGES

               

              All Yahoo Group users should  NOTE CLEARLY that on Dec. 14th ALL uploaded content will be permanently DELETED!!!

              If you scroll up to the top of any Yahoo Group page, you will see the following message........:

              Attention: Starting December 14, 2019 Yahoo Groups will no longer host user created content on its sites. New content can no longer be uploaded after October 28, 2019. Sending/Receiving email functionality is not going away, you can continue to communicate via any email client with your group members. Learn More

              In the Learn More link above is the following text.....................:

              Understand what's changing in Yahoo Groups

              Yahoo has made the decision to no longer allow users to upload content to the Yahoo Groups site. Beginning October 28, you won't be able to upload any more content to the site, and as of December 14 all previously posted content on the site will be permanently removed. You'll have until that date to save anything you've uploaded.
              What features will go away?

                  Files
                  Polls
                  Links
                  Photos
                  Folders
                  Calendar
                  Database
                  Attachments
                  Conversations
                  Email Updates
                  Message Digest
                  Message History

              What will happen to the site?

              The Yahoo Groups site will continue to exist, however, all public groups will be made private or restricted. Any new group members will need to request an invite or be invited by an admin. Admins will still be able to manage various group settings, though some functionality will be limited.
              What will happen on October 28?

              On October 28, you will no longer be able to upload any content to the site.. To share info with members of your groups, you'll continue to be able to do so via email.
              How can I keep my Yahoo Groups content?

              Photos and files can be saved right from the Yahoo Groups site, or you can download your data from the Privacy Dashboard.
              Will I be able to use Yahoo Groups going forward?

              You'll still be able to communicate with your groups via email and search for private groups on the site. In addition, admins will continue to have limited access to group settings and administration tools.

              https://help.yahoo.com/kb/groups/SLN31010.html?impressions=true

              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57274 From: Harry Perry Date: 10/19/2019
              Subject: Yahoo Group Changes.......Some Clarity
              When considering these changes, in my opinion, it's important to make a distinction between the group and the group's website at Yahoo. The group, is a group of people sharing a common interest. The website, is a place to store content that you can refer to later.

                                                          YAHOO GROUPS ARE NOT CLOSING.......FOR NOW

              The changes are to the functionality of the website. Considering Yahoo could not get them to function properly, consistently, for years, unless you posted to the group website you won't even notice a change.

                                          YOU CAN'T POST ON THE WEBSITE AFTER OCT. 28TH


                                      ALL ARCHIVED CONTENT WILL BE DELETED ON DEC. 14TH

              OPTIONS......

              DOWNLOAD ANYTHING YOU WANT TO SAVE NOW !!!!!!

              i.o. groups seem to be popular.

              You can store content on your e-mail page. Yahoo  has an archive folder for content you want to save.

              Set aside folders for any content you want to save on your computer.

              Look for Verizon/Yahoo to offer a pay to join group product. Perhaps. I'm sure someone at Verizon has thought about this.

              Harry
              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57275 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 10/28/2019
              Subject: Re: YAHOO GROUP CHANGES

              Hi Ray, Harry et al,

               Another group I am on has successfully migrated to the io platform for which I understand there is a charge for the first year after which it is free. If like that group, several Aquatic Life members would be willing to chip in a little it would be minimal for everyone & I would be happy to do so. 

               John.

               

              On 18 October 2019 at 06:54 "Raymond Wetzel sevensprs1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

               

               




              -----Original Message-----
              From: Harry Perry harryfisherman@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
              To: Alternative_MedicineTriedandTrue <Alternative_MedicineTriedandTrue@yahoogroups.com>; antiqueoutboard-engines <antiqueoutboard-engines@yahoogroups.com>; aquariumclub2 <aquariumclub2@yahoogroups.com>; AquaticLife <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>; ArtAnonymous <ArtAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>; Artists-Who-Survive <Artists-Who-Survive@yahoogroups.com>; badis-dario <badis-dario@yahoogroups.com>; WatercolorWorkshop <WatercolorWorkshop@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Thu, Oct 17, 2019 1:35 pm
              Subject: [AquaticLife] YAHOO GROUP CHANGES

               

              All Yahoo Group users should  NOTE CLEARLY that on Dec. 14th ALL uploaded content will be permanently DELETED!!!

              If you scroll up to the top of any Yahoo Group page, you will see the following message........:

              Attention: Starting December 14, 2019 Yahoo Groups will no longer host user created content on its sites. New content can no longer be uploaded after October 28, 2019. Sending/Receiving email functionality is not going away, you can continue to communicate via any email client with your group members. Learn More

              In the Learn More link above is the following text.....................:

              Understand what's changing in Yahoo Groups

              Yahoo has made the decision to no longer allow users to upload content to the Yahoo Groups site. Beginning October 28, you won't be able to upload any more content to the site, and as of December 14 all previously posted content on the site will be permanently removed. You'll have until that date to save anything you've uploaded.
              What features will go away?

                  Files
                  Polls
                  Links
                  Photos
                  Folders
                  Calendar
                  Database
                  Attachments
                  Conversations
                  Email Updates
                  Message Digest
                  Message History

              What will happen to the site?

              The Yahoo Groups site will continue to exist, however, all public groups will be made private or restricted. Any new group members will need to request an invite or be invited by an admin. Admins will still be able to manage various group settings, though some functionality will be limited.
              What will happen on October 28?

              On October 28, you will no longer be able to upload any content to the site... To share info with members of your groups, you'll continue to be able to do so via email.
              How can I keep my Yahoo Groups content?

              Photos and files can be saved right from the Yahoo Groups site, or you can download your data from the Privacy Dashboard.
              Will I be able to use Yahoo Groups going forward?

              You'll still be able to communicate with your groups via email and search for private groups on the site. In addition, admins will continue to have limited access to group settings and administration tools.

              https://help.yahoo.com/kb/groups/SLN31010.html?impressions=true

               

               


               


               

              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57276 From: Raymond Wetzel Date: 10/29/2019
              Subject: Re: YAHOO GROUP CHANGES
              Hi John,

              Towards the very beginning, Groups.io was free.  As I understand it, now the fee is U.S. $220 for the first year.  While this group isn't very active (at all), there are a good many valuable (in the terms of knowledge) messages in the archives that would be well worth saving, but even if we had 11 members chipping in, it would still cost each of us US $20 apiece.  We'd preferably need at least 22 members chipping in to get the fee down to US $10 each, a more comfortable figure.  I don't have this group's owner's (Adam) email address or I'd contact him to see if he has anything in mind, but I don't see this US $220 as being affordable for just a few of us to chip in for.  If you or Harry has Adam's email address it might be worth a try to contact him to see if he has any plans in mind.  Otherwise, while any messages posted from now on won't be archived (and the archives themselves will be deleted on December 14), this group should still continue but only as a messaging group.  For all anyone knows though, all of these Yahoo Groups could be eliminated anytime next year, so moving to Groups.io would still be in this group's best interest -- IF there's some way to affordably gather the fee.  As this is being sent out to (and hopefully read by) the entire group and not just to AquaticLife-Owner, hopefully other members who see this group as an asset may consider chipping in as well.

              Ray,   



              -----Original Message-----
              From: SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
              To: AquaticLife <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Tue, Oct 29, 2019 12:24 am
              Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] YAHOO GROUP CHANGES

               
              Hi Ray, Harry et al,
               Another group I am on has successfully migrated to the io platform for which I understand there is a charge for the first year after which it is free. If like that group, several Aquatic Life members would be willing to chip in a little it would be minimal for everyone & I would be happy to do so. 
               John.
               
              On 18 October 2019 at 06:54 "Raymond Wetzel sevensprs1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

               
               



              -----Original Message-----
              From: Harry Perry harryfisherman@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
              To: Alternative_MedicineTriedandTrue <Alternative_MedicineTriedandTrue@yahoogroups.com>; antiqueoutboard-engines <antiqueoutboard-engines@yahoogroups.com>; aquariumclub2 <aquariumclub2@yahoogroups.com>; AquaticLife <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>; ArtAnonymous <ArtAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>; Artists-Who-Survive <Artists-Who-Survive@yahoogroups.com>; badis-dario <badis-dario@yahoogroups.com>; WatercolorWorkshop <WatercolorWorkshop@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Thu, Oct 17, 2019 1:35 pm
              Subject: [AquaticLife] YAHOO GROUP CHANGES

               
              All Yahoo Group users should  NOTE CLEARLY that on Dec. 14th ALL uploaded content will be permanently DELETED!!!

              If you scroll up to the top of any Yahoo Group page, you will see the following message........:

              Attention: Starting December 14, 2019 Yahoo Groups will no longer host user created content on its sites. New content can no longer be uploaded after October 28, 2019. Sending/Receiving email functionality is not going away, you can continue to communicate via any email client with your group members. Learn More

              In the Learn More link above is the following text.....................:

              Understand what's changing in Yahoo Groups

              Yahoo has made the decision to no longer allow users to upload content to the Yahoo Groups site. Beginning October 28, you won't be able to upload any more content to the site, and as of December 14 all previously posted content on the site will be permanently removed. You'll have until that date to save anything you've uploaded.
              What features will go away?

                  Files
                  Polls
                  Links
                  Photos
                  Folders
                  Calendar
                  Database
                  Attachments
                  Conversations
                  Email Updates
                  Message Digest
                  Message History

              What will happen to the site?

              The Yahoo Groups site will continue to exist, however, all public groups will be made private or restricted. Any new group members will need to request an invite or be invited by an admin.. Admins will still be able to manage various group settings, though some functionality will be limited.
              What will happen on October 28?

              On October 28, you will no longer be able to upload any content to the site... To share info with members of your groups, you'll continue to be able to do so via email.
              How can I keep my Yahoo Groups content?

              Photos and files can be saved right from the Yahoo Groups site, or you can download your data from the Privacy Dashboard.
              Will I be able to use Yahoo Groups going forward?

              You'll still be able to communicate with your groups via email and search for private groups on the site. In addition, admins will continue to have limited access to group settings and administration tools.

              https://help.yahoo.com/kb/groups/SLN31010.html?impressions=true
               
               

               

               
              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57277 From: Raymond Wetzel Date: 10/30/2019
              Subject: Re: YAHOO GROUP CHANGES
              Hi again John,

              I've been able to come up with a bit more information. even though it may not help much.  To start though, and while it doesn't help matters (but does explain things better), after the initial period of Groups.io offering to host Yahoo groups for free -- and I'm not sure how long that lasted, although I know it was for a good while -- they initiated a fee of US $110 for the first year, only.  I'm not sure, but I believe there was an additional US $10 monthly fee (or perhaps not).  During this recent deluge of Yahoo groups scrambling to Groups.io, because of this rush in such increased service and presumedly as this host needed to increase their staff to meet these demands, Groups.io increased their fees on October 22 to US $220 per first year or $20 per month (for a US $20 discount if the year plan was taken).  Their rates can be seen here at < https://groups.io/static/pricing >.  They fees are only in effect for the first year, as I understand it, and these fees are for their "Premium" plan having 10 GB of storage space.  According to their pricing rates, They still do have a free "Basic" plan, but which offers only 1 GB of storage space.  While this isn't much, and while it would take additional work, if the archives were whittled down to only the most pertinent material and all the superfluous matter eliminated -- such as messages asking "Why are my fish dying" -- maybe we could use this Basic plan, if not long term then at least to start with to get out from under Yahoo groups.  Oh, there's also an "Enterprise" plan having 1 TB storage space, costing US $200 per month or US $2200 per year < g >.   

              One other thought, a member on another Yahoo group asked if his group might consider going to a Google group as a host.  I know nothing about this although I do understand that it's completely free.  Still, in any case, it would seem that Adam should be approached for considering any move to see how he feels about moving his own group.    

              I've also come up with an alternate way of downloading the archives to one's own computer by using PG Offline < http://www.personalgroupware.com/pgoffline-index.htm >, if that's of any help -- at least until (hopefully) we can make the move to another host, or provide time to whittle the archives down until they contain only the most important text.  .   
              Ray


              -----Original Message-----
              From: Raymond Wetzel sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
              To: AquaticLife <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Tue, Oct 29, 2019 11:33 pm
              Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] YAHOO GROUP CHANGES

               

              Hi John,

              Towards the very beginning, Groups.io was free.  As I understand it, now the fee is U.S. $220 for the first year.  While this group isn't very active (at all), there are a good many valuable (in the terms of knowledge) messages in the archives that would be well worth saving, but even if we had 11 members chipping in, it would still cost each of us US $20 apiece.  We'd preferably need at least 22 members chipping in to get the fee down to US $10 each, a more comfortable figure.  I don't have this group's owner's (Adam) email address or I'd contact him to see if he has anything in mind, but I don't see this US $220 as being affordable for just a few of us to chip in for.  If you or Harry has Adam's email address it might be worth a try to contact him to see if he has any plans in mind.  Otherwise, while any messages posted from now on won't be archived (and the archives themselves will be deleted on December 14), this group should still continue but only as a messaging group.  For all anyone knows though, all of these Yahoo Groups could be eliminated anytime next year, so moving to Groups.io would still be in this group's best interest -- IF there's some way to affordably gather the fee.  As this is being sent out to (and hopefully read by) the entire group and not just to AquaticLife-Owner, hopefully other members who see this group as an asset may consider chipping in as well.

              Ray,   



              -----Original Message-----
              From: SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
              To: AquaticLife <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Tue, Oct 29, 2019 12:24 am
              Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] YAHOO GROUP CHANGES

               
              Hi Ray, Harry et al,
               Another group I am on has successfully migrated to the io platform for which I understand there is a charge for the first year after which it is free. If like that group, several Aquatic Life members would be willing to chip in a little it would be minimal for everyone & I would be happy to do so. 
               John.
               
              On 18 October 2019 at 06:54 "Raymond Wetzel sevensprs1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

               
               



              -----Original Message-----
              From: Harry Perry harryfisherman@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
              To: Alternative_MedicineTriedandTrue <Alternative_MedicineTriedandTrue@yahoogroups.com>; antiqueoutboard-engines <antiqueoutboard-engines@yahoogroups.com>; aquariumclub2 <aquariumclub2@yahoogroups.com>; AquaticLife <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>; ArtAnonymous <ArtAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>; Artists-Who-Survive <Artists-Who-Survive@yahoogroups.com>; badis-dario <badis-dario@yahoogroups.com>; WatercolorWorkshop <WatercolorWorkshop@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Thu, Oct 17, 2019 1:35 pm
              Subject: [AquaticLife] YAHOO GROUP CHANGES

               
              All Yahoo Group users should  NOTE CLEARLY that on Dec. 14th ALL uploaded content will be permanently DELETED!!!

              If you scroll up to the top of any Yahoo Group page, you will see the following message........:

              Attention: Starting December 14, 2019 Yahoo Groups will no longer host user created content on its sites. New content can no longer be uploaded after October 28, 2019. Sending/Receiving email functionality is not going away, you can continue to communicate via any email client with your group members. Learn More

              In the Learn More link above is the following text.....................:

              Understand what's changing in Yahoo Groups

              Yahoo has made the decision to no longer allow users to upload content to the Yahoo Groups site. Beginning October 28, you won't be able to upload any more content to the site, and as of December 14 all previously posted content on the site will be permanently removed. You'll have until that date to save anything you've uploaded.
              What features will go away?

                  Files
                  Polls
                  Links
                  Photos
                  Folders
                  Calendar
                  Database
                  Attachments
                  Conversations
                  Email Updates
                  Message Digest
                  Message History

              What will happen to the site?

              The Yahoo Groups site will continue to exist, however, all public groups will be made private or restricted. Any new group members will need to request an invite or be invited by an admin.. Admins will still be able to manage various group settings, though some functionality will be limited.
              What will happen on October 28?

              On October 28, you will no longer be able to upload any content to the site... To share info with members of your groups, you'll continue to be able to do so via email.
              How can I keep my Yahoo Groups content?

              Photos and files can be saved right from the Yahoo Groups site, or you can download your data from the Privacy Dashboard.
              Will I be able to use Yahoo Groups going forward?

              You'll still be able to communicate with your groups via email and search for private groups on the site. In addition, admins will continue to have limited access to group settings and administration tools.

              https://help.yahoo.com/kb/groups/SLN31010.html?impressions=true
               
               

               

               
              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57278 From: Raymond Wetzel Date: 10/30/2019
              Subject: Re: YAHOO GROUP CHANGES
              Hi again John,

              I've been able to come up with a bit more information. even though it may not help much.  To start though, and while it doesn't help matters (but does explain things better), after the initial period of Groups.io offering to host Yahoo groups for free -- and I'm not sure how long that lasted, although I know it was for a good while -- they initiated a fee of US $110 for the first year, only.  I'm not sure, but I believe there was an additional US $10 monthly fee (or perhaps not).  During this recent deluge of Yahoo groups scrambling to Groups.io, because of this rush in such increased service and presumedly as this host needed to increase their staff to meet these demands, Groups.io increased their fees on October 22 to US $220 per first year or $20 per month (for a US $20 discount if the year plan was taken).  Their rates can be seen here at < https://groups.io/static/pricing >.  They fees are only in effect for the first year, as I understand it, and these fees are for their "Premium" plan having 10 GB of storage space.  According to their pricing rates, They still do have a free "Basic" plan, but which offers only 1 GB of storage space.  While this isn't much, and while it would take additional work, if the archives were whittled down to only the most pertinent material and all the superfluous matter eliminated -- such as messages asking "Why are my fish dying" -- maybe we could use this Basic plan, if not long term then at least to start with to get out from under Yahoo groups.  Oh, there's also an "Enterprise" plan having 1 TB storage space, costing US $200 per month or US $2200 per year < g >.   

              One other thought, a member on another Yahoo group asked if his group might consider going to a Google group as a host.  I know nothing about this although I do understand that it's completely free.  Still, in any case, it would seem that Adam should be approached for considering any move to see how he feels about moving his own group.    

              I've also come up with an alternate way of downloading the archives to one's own computer by using PG Offline < http://www.personalgroupware.com/pgoffline-index.htm >, if that's of any help -- at least until (hopefully) we can make the move to another host, or provide time to whittle the archives down until they contain only the most important text.  .   
              Ray


              -----Original Message-----
              From: Raymond Wetzel sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
              To: AquaticLife <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Tue, Oct 29, 2019 11:33 pm
              Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] YAHOO GROUP CHANGES

               

              Hi John,

              Towards the very beginning, Groups.io was free.  As I understand it, now the fee is U.S. $220 for the first year.  While this group isn't very active (at all), there are a good many valuable (in the terms of knowledge) messages in the archives that would be well worth saving, but even if we had 11 members chipping in, it would still cost each of us US $20 apiece.  We'd preferably need at least 22 members chipping in to get the fee down to US $10 each, a more comfortable figure.  I don't have this group's owner's (Adam) email address or I'd contact him to see if he has anything in mind, but I don't see this US $220 as being affordable for just a few of us to chip in for.  If you or Harry has Adam's email address it might be worth a try to contact him to see if he has any plans in mind.  Otherwise, while any messages posted from now on won't be archived (and the archives themselves will be deleted on December 14), this group should still continue but only as a messaging group.  For all anyone knows though, all of these Yahoo Groups could be eliminated anytime next year, so moving to Groups.io would still be in this group's best interest -- IF there's some way to affordably gather the fee.  As this is being sent out to (and hopefully read by) the entire group and not just to AquaticLife-Owner, hopefully other members who see this group as an asset may consider chipping in as well.

              Ray,   



              -----Original Message-----
              From: SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
              To: AquaticLife <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Tue, Oct 29, 2019 12:24 am
              Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] YAHOO GROUP CHANGES

               
              Hi Ray, Harry et al,
               Another group I am on has successfully migrated to the io platform for which I understand there is a charge for the first year after which it is free. If like that group, several Aquatic Life members would be willing to chip in a little it would be minimal for everyone & I would be happy to do so. 
               John.
               
              On 18 October 2019 at 06:54 "Raymond Wetzel sevensprs1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

               
               



              -----Original Message-----
              From: Harry Perry harryfisherman@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
              To: Alternative_MedicineTriedandTrue <Alternative_MedicineTriedandTrue@yahoogroups.com>; antiqueoutboard-engines <antiqueoutboard-engines@yahoogroups.com>; aquariumclub2 <aquariumclub2@yahoogroups.com>; AquaticLife <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>; ArtAnonymous <ArtAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>; Artists-Who-Survive <Artists-Who-Survive@yahoogroups.com>; badis-dario <badis-dario@yahoogroups.com>; WatercolorWorkshop <WatercolorWorkshop@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Thu, Oct 17, 2019 1:35 pm
              Subject: [AquaticLife] YAHOO GROUP CHANGES

               
              All Yahoo Group users should  NOTE CLEARLY that on Dec. 14th ALL uploaded content will be permanently DELETED!!!

              If you scroll up to the top of any Yahoo Group page, you will see the following message........:

              Attention: Starting December 14, 2019 Yahoo Groups will no longer host user created content on its sites. New content can no longer be uploaded after October 28, 2019. Sending/Receiving email functionality is not going away, you can continue to communicate via any email client with your group members. Learn More

              In the Learn More link above is the following text.....................:

              Understand what's changing in Yahoo Groups

              Yahoo has made the decision to no longer allow users to upload content to the Yahoo Groups site. Beginning October 28, you won't be able to upload any more content to the site, and as of December 14 all previously posted content on the site will be permanently removed. You'll have until that date to save anything you've uploaded.
              What features will go away?

                  Files
                  Polls
                  Links
                  Photos
                  Folders
                  Calendar
                  Database
                  Attachments
                  Conversations
                  Email Updates
                  Message Digest
                  Message History

              What will happen to the site?

              The Yahoo Groups site will continue to exist, however, all public groups will be made private or restricted. Any new group members will need to request an invite or be invited by an admin.. Admins will still be able to manage various group settings, though some functionality will be limited.
              What will happen on October 28?

              On October 28, you will no longer be able to upload any content to the site... To share info with members of your groups, you'll continue to be able to do so via email.
              How can I keep my Yahoo Groups content?

              Photos and files can be saved right from the Yahoo Groups site, or you can download your data from the Privacy Dashboard.
              Will I be able to use Yahoo Groups going forward?

              You'll still be able to communicate with your groups via email and search for private groups on the site. In addition, admins will continue to have limited access to group settings and administration tools.

              https://help.yahoo.com/kb/groups/SLN31010.html?impressions=true
               
               

               

               
              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57279 From: Harry Perry Date: 10/30/2019
              Subject: Another perspective.
              Considering Yahoo Group changes.......

              There really isn't any need to do anything. Except maybe save some pictures.

              All we are losing is the ability to store information at the group website.

              When I look at the files I see information that for the most part came from the Internet to begin with.

              The value of this group is the e-mail interaction of it's members.

              The functionality of the group websites has been inconsistent for years.

              Any information we can't provide can be found at Google or YouTube.

              The experience of the members is the value of the group which is shared through e-mail interaction.

              Soo,  let's relax and save our money. The value of the group isn't going anywhere.

              Harry
              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57280 From: Raymond Wetzel Date: 10/30/2019
              Subject: Re: Another perspective.
              Harry,

              Please consider this;  there have been many specific cases of fish issues that needed specific attention to resolve them.  Many of the moderators going back over the years and a several very knowledgeable members added their input at a level not to be found anywhere else.  As far as the knowledge dished out here to the members needing our help, it is not to be found very easily at Google, as it has been shown many times over that there are many self-proclaimed "experts" on numerous Google sites, even some who started their own sites to appear as most knowledgeable, who have shown themselves to be nothing but beginners who just want to make a name for themselves at the expense of aquarium hobbyists in need of help but who have been steered wrong by these so called "gurus."  I've participated in other aquarium groups, even moderated several others, but there has been no other group on the internet which has given as accurate advice as the Aquatic Life group, primarily because the knowledge given out was from many years of personal experience, not by copying "cures" from one Google site owner to the next, to the next, ad infinitum -- and that's all many of these self-proclaimed experts have done except to copy from one another to make themselves look good -- and the hobbyists in need of good advice have no way of knowing how accurate (or poor) that advice is.  This Aquatic Life group is unique in the respect that nothing but factual and precise advice was given out to explicitly fit the specific needs of those who asked for it -- as it came from life-experiences working with fish, not from copying others who in turn only copied yet others.  I have yet to see anything near what Aquatic Life has done in any other aquarium group on the 'Net, and I've been with this Aquatic Life group since before its name was changed to this, from its beginning.  That the members turned to a social network like Facebook, has shown they hadn't appreciated the group, but it's highly doubtful they're getting the needed expert advice that they were given here.  Some of these knowledgeable moderators we've had on here have since passed on, but their knowledge remains in the archives.  I don't know if there will come a time when those who migrated to Facebook will return here, but anything they need to know about any fish problems they have will be found in a search of the archives stored in this group, if and when that time ever comes.  

              I do understand that at the present, this group isn't being used very much at all, but if the time ever comes that the group again becomes popular it would be a shame to allow all that stored knowledge in the archives to just be deleted for naught   I noticed that one member unsubscribed a day or two ago, and there have been a (very) small number of them who have likewise unsubscribed, but as Yahoo tells us moderators of each and every member who has gone this route, that number is a drop in the bucket.  As I seem to recall, we had something like 4200+ members, if I'm not mistaken, and must still have most of them to date -- except that they no longer post here, in favor of the more popular social networks.    

              As for another option as a host to move to, and for free which I just recently discovered, is a site called ProBoards < https://www.proboards.com/create-free-forum >.  It's lesser known than Groups.io and that's only because the word really got around fast about Groups.io by many in desperate need to find a host other than Yahoo, but from what I've learned about it, it functions well and could be our answer to the problem Yahoo has created..

              Ray Wetzel           


              -----Original Message-----
              From: Harry Perry harryfisherman@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
              To: AquaticLife <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Wed, Oct 30, 2019 4:37 pm
              Subject: [AquaticLife] Another perspective.

               

              Considering Yahoo Group changes.......

              There really isn't any need to do anything. Except maybe save some pictures.

              All we are losing is the ability to store information at the group website.

              When I look at the files I see information that for the most part came from the Internet to begin with.

              The value of this group is the e-mail interaction of it's members.

              The functionality of the group websites has been inconsistent for years.

              Any information we can't provide can be found at Google or YouTube.

              The experience of the members is the value of the group which is shared through e-mail interaction.

              Soo,  let's relax and save our money. The value of the group isn't going anywhere.

              Harry

              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57281 From: Harry Perry Date: 11/2/2019
              Subject: Fw: [DMSO] More on Yahoo Changes



              ----- Forwarded Message -----
              From: Harry Perry harryfisherman@... [DimethylSulfoxide-DMSO] <dimethylsulfoxide-dmso@yahoogroups.com>
              To: "dimethylsulfoxide-dmso@yahoogroups.com" <dimethylsulfoxide-dmso@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Saturday, November 2, 2019, 5:40:12 PM EDT
              Subject: [DMSO] More on Yahoo Changes

               

              I just received this.

              Harry
              ...........................................................................................................................................................................................................
              Yahoo!

              Dear Group Moderators and Members,

              Thank you for your commitment to Yahoo and for helping us define the power of digital communities. Eighteen years ago, we combined the functionality of a site called eGroups.com with a precursor community platform called Yahoo Clubs to launch Yahoo Groups. Since then, you and millions of others have helped prove our hypothesis, by creating and joining more than 10 Million groups.

              A lot has changed about the Internet since 2001, including the ways most people now use Yahoo Groups. Today, most Yahoo Groups activity happens in your email inbox, not on the bulletin boards where Yahoo Groups started in the pre-smartphone age. Increasingly, people want content and connections coming directly to them, and this is why we continue to invest in Yahoo Mail -- including the recent launch of a new Yahoo Mail app that is currently the highest-rated email app in the App Store and Google Play.

              So, as our users’ habits have evolved, we have begun the process of evolving our approach to help active Yahoo Groups thrive and migrate to our email platform. To help you plan for these changes, below is the schedule of how this transition will happen.

              Beginning October 28, 2019:

                  Users will be able to join a Yahoo Group only through an invite from the Group Moderator or by submitting a request to join a Group, which requires approval by the Group Moderator.
                  Since we are moving Group communication from posting on message boards to email distribution, uploading and hosting of new content will also be disabled on the Yahoo Groups website.

              Beginning December 14, 2019:

                  All Groups will be made private and any content that was previously uploaded via the website will be removed. We believe privacy is critical and made this decision to better align with our overall principles.
                  If you would like to keep any of the content you’ve posted or stored in the past within your Yahoo Group, please download it by December 14 by accessing this link.

              As these dates get closer, we will send follow-up reminders. More information about the upcoming changes can be found here.

              While this evolution of Yahoo Groups is inspired by how we see the platform being used today, we know change can be difficult. Here are a few important facts as we make this transition:

              1. Yahoo Groups is not going away - We know that our users are deeply passionate about connecting around shared interests, and we are evolving Groups to better align with how you use it today.

              2. New groups can still be formed - Users can continue to connect with others around their common bonds and interests. From animal rescues to sporting and activity groups, civic organizations to local PTAs, members of our Yahoo Groups will remain connected and able to share their activities and interests. All of the content that you have shared previously on the website, can continue to be shared via email.

              We know that Yahoo Groups is an important online extension of your real-life group of friends, interests and communities, and we are committed to supporting communities that rely on Yahoo Groups. Thanks for coming along with us this far. We look forward to seeing where the technology -- and you -- take us in the decades to come.

              Sincerely,
              The Groups Team

              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57282 From: Harry Perry Date: 11/3/2019
              Subject: Saving content from group website......
              So, I just visited the group website to see how hard it is to save anything.
              There are only 25 files. Right click on "save link as"
              and sent what I wanted to my desktop. For past discussions you will need to know the message number.

              It's just as easy to save any current messages from your e-mails.

              I don't see any reason to move anything. What's there will only take a few minutes.

              Harry
              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57283 From: Raymond Wetzel Date: 11/3/2019
              Subject: Re: Saving content from group website......
              As far as the files go, with only 25 of them that's fairly easy.  I'm not talking about the files though, I'm talking about the rest of the archive content -- the many messages themselves, and while many of them are immaterial with just "hellos" and "how are you's," many others contain vital information that only comes from a lifetime of "hands on" experience with fish, not to be found anywhere else.  It's vital that they be saved and then sorted out afterwards for the extraneous matter, to be discarded.   Past discussions can be moved as a group to a new host without needing to know their individual numbers.  They can then be edited from there as to what's saveable or not.

              Ray


              -----Original Message-----
              From: Harry Perry harryfisherman@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
              To: AquaticLife <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Sun, Nov 3, 2019 1:18 pm
              Subject: [AquaticLife] Saving content from group website......

               
              So, I just visited the group website to see how hard it is to save anything.
              There are only 25 files. Right click on "save link as"
              and sent what I wanted to my desktop. For past discussions you will need to know the message number.

              It's just as easy to save any current messages from your e-mails.

              I don't see any reason to move anything. What's there will only take a few minutes.

              Harry
              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57284 From: Raymond Wetzel Date: 11/3/2019
              Subject: Re: Saving content from group website......
              As far as the files go, with only 25 of them that's fairly easy.  I'm not talking about the files though, I'm talking about the rest of the archive content -- the many messages themselves, and while many of them are immaterial with just "hellos" and "how are you's," many others contain vital information that only comes from a lifetime of "hands on" experience with fish, not to be found anywhere else.  It's vital that they be saved and then sorted out afterwards for the extraneous matter, to be discarded.   Past discussions can be moved as a group to a new host without needing to know their individual numbers.  They can then be edited from there as to what's saveable or not.

              Ray


              -----Original Message-----
              From: Harry Perry harryfisherman@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
              To: AquaticLife <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Sun, Nov 3, 2019 1:18 pm
              Subject: [AquaticLife] Saving content from group website......

               
              So, I just visited the group website to see how hard it is to save anything.
              There are only 25 files. Right click on "save link as"
              and sent what I wanted to my desktop. For past discussions you will need to know the message number.

              It's just as easy to save any current messages from your e-mails.

              I don't see any reason to move anything. What's there will only take a few minutes.

              Harry
              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57285 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 11/3/2019
              Subject: Re: Saving content from group website......

              Hi Ray & Harry,

               I can see both of your points of view here, the files are easy so that leaves the discussions to be sorted out & that is where I think the problem will be taking a lot of time to weed out the info from the chit-chat. I certainly don't have the time (or the knowledge) to do this but if someone does then that would be great.

               John.

              On 03 November 2019 at 19:53 "Raymond Wetzel sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

               

               

              As far as the files go, with only 25 of them that's fairly easy.  I'm not talking about the files though, I'm talking about the rest of the archive content -- the many messages themselves, and while many of them are immaterial with just "hellos" and "how are you's," many others contain vital information that only comes from a lifetime of "hands on" experience with fish, not to be found anywhere else.  It's vital that they be saved and then sorted out afterwards for the extraneous matter, to be discarded.   Past discussions can be moved as a group to a new host without needing to know their individual numbers.  They can then be edited from there as to what's saveable or not.

              Ray


              -----Original Message-----
              From: Harry Perry harryfisherman@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
              To: AquaticLife <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Sun, Nov 3, 2019 1:18 pm
              Subject: [AquaticLife] Saving content from group website......

               
              So, I just visited the group website to see how hard it is to save anything.
              There are only 25 files. Right click on "save link as"
              and sent what I wanted to my desktop. For past discussions you will need to know the message number.

              It's just as easy to save any current messages from your e-mails.

              I don't see any reason to move anything. What's there will only take a few minutes.

              Harry
               

               


               


               

              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57286 From: Raymond Wetzel Date: 11/3/2019
              Subject: Re: Saving content from group website......
              Hi John,

              My point, if the discussions are to be saved at all, is to transfer the group (and all its discussions, since they'd all be transferred anyway) and then once everything is transferred and safe, then they may (or may not) be sorted through (if so deemed) when there's more time to do this -- or don't sort through them at all.  At least none of the more informative posts would be lost and anyone at any future date can then bring them up with a search just by typing a topic name in the search bar.  As I stated a free host with its email address here, which I hope you saw, by switching it wouldn't cost anyone anything.  I don't know how to do this stuff though and I think Adam should be reached out to before anything's done, but I can't see him saying no to this when it's gratis.. 

              Ray  



              -----Original Message-----
              From: SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
              To: AquaticLife <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Sun, Nov 3, 2019 7:51 pm
              Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Saving content from group website......

               
              Hi Ray & Harry,
               I can see both of your points of view here, the files are easy so that leaves the discussions to be sorted out & that is where I think the problem will be taking a lot of time to weed out the info from the chit-chat. I certainly don't have the time (or the knowledge) to do this but if someone does then that would be great.
               John.
              On 03 November 2019 at 19:53 "Raymond Wetzel sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

               
               
              As far as the files go, with only 25 of them that's fairly easy.  I'm not talking about the files though, I'm talking about the rest of the archive content -- the many messages themselves, and while many of them are immaterial with just "hellos" and "how are you's," many others contain vital information that only comes from a lifetime of "hands on" experience with fish, not to be found anywhere else.  It's vital that they be saved and then sorted out afterwards for the extraneous matter, to be discarded.   Past discussions can be moved as a group to a new host without needing to know their individual numbers.  They can then be edited from there as to what's saveable or not.

              Ray


              -----Original Message-----
              From: Harry Perry harryfisherman@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
              To: AquaticLife <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Sun, Nov 3, 2019 1:18 pm
              Subject: [AquaticLife] Saving content from group website......

               
              So, I just visited the group website to see how hard it is to save anything.
              There are only 25 files.. Right click on "save link as"
              and sent what I wanted to my desktop. For past discussions you will need to know the message number.

              It's just as easy to save any current messages from your e-mails.

              I don't see any reason to move anything. What's there will only take a few minutes.

              Harry
               
               

               

               
              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57287 From: Charles Harrison Date: 11/3/2019
              Subject: Re: Saving content from group website......
              Hi Ray & Harry,
              A dozen plus years ago the AKA was losing control of the
              KillieTalk email group. There were some bad feelings and bad acting
              members of the group. There were some hard feelings and a lot of very
              worthwhile information within the content of the group. So there was
              a lot of very good information and a little very bad words within the
              group of information in the posts. There were no pictures only points
              to some.

              Bottom line is I saved the bulk of the 5 years of information in
              emails and messages and bad stuff. I have since deleted the bad stuff
              and have seldom looked at the bulk of the old information. I kept the
              Fruit fly medium information and some of the Grindal & Daphnia
              culturing information and the rest just takes up hard drive space.
              When I change computers next time, I will probably leave it behind.

              Just a thought . . .

              Charles Harrison
              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57288 From: Michael Li Date: 11/4/2019
              Subject: Re: Saving content from group website......
              Are we in need of a new forum with the old content moved over? I have the skills to quickly set up a new forum website. 

              If there are enough interested members, I will go ahead and get it done. Let me know.

              Sent from my iPhone

              On Nov 3, 2019, at 10:53 PM, Charles Harrison charles@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

               

              Hi Ray & Harry,
              A dozen plus years ago the AKA was losing control of the
              KillieTalk email group. There were some bad feelings and bad acting
              members of the group. There were some hard feelings and a lot of very
              worthwhile information within the content of the group. So there was
              a lot of very good information and a little very bad words within the
              group of information in the posts. There were no pictures only points
              to some.

              Bottom line is I saved the bulk of the 5 years of information in
              emails and messages and bad stuff. I have since deleted the bad stuff
              and have seldom looked at the bulk of the old information. I kept the
              Fruit fly medium information and some of the Grindal & Daphnia
              culturing information and the rest just takes up hard drive space.
              When I change computers next time, I will probably leave it behind.

              Just a thought . . .

              Charles Harrison

              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57289 From: Raymond Wetzel Date: 11/4/2019
              Subject: Re: Saving content from group website......
              Hi Charles,

              By your name, I'm assuming that you may be Dr. Charles Harrison (from Missouri), whom we all come to respect.  As an AKA member myself for much longer than these 12 years ago you mentioned, I remember that period and the KillieTalk forum that the club had to move -- although only vaguely now.  I do understand what you're saying about needing very little of the 5 years of information you saved and your probable reluctance in bringing that info along to you next computer, which I can appreciate.  However, it's likely (just with continuing on this same notion) that another AKA member may find other KillieTalk messages much more necessary to his purposes and may want to retain it to have it on had continually to refer back to.  While your intent on not bringing your saved info along with you is certainly legitimate for your purposes, every aquarist has different needs of different information that's of various importance to him.  Much of the information stored on Aquatic Life is relevant to the very core of the group with many different subjects/questions/predicaments and their related answers/solutions prime to the very purpose of the group for the fishes' well being, not just incidentals like how to grow microworms.  I'm not at all trying to downplay your need of the time to have info on live food culture, and while the best of that same info may well have been found only on KillieTalk, with other relevant info having been posted on other sites but not being as informative.  Again, perfectly understandable to your needs, but what I'm trying to get across here is that we (Aquatic Life) very often delved into a myriad of subject pertaining to the actual preserving of life of the members' fish in so may different aspects depending on each one's specific problem, to a depth that can't be found elsewhere.  I truly appreciate your input on this and just wish we could have more such input like this, and I thank you for what you're bringing to light.  While I believe we have a different set of circumstances here, and while some of the stored info here may be found in books if the members only knew where to look -- although they often didn't (and so we'd direct them to knowledgeable sources such as the Baensch Atlas Volume 1) -- much more info is not to be found anywhere else in such depth even IF it's touched on in literature, which it often isn't.   This is why I've said that our archives are unique and valuable, while of course still having lots of superfluous stuff that's found on any other forum.  Many thanks again.     

              Best regards,

              Ray Wetzel


              -----Original Message-----
              From: Charles Harrison charles@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
              To: AquaticLife <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Sun, Nov 3, 2019 10:55 pm
              Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Saving content from group website......

               
              Hi Ray & Harry,
              A dozen plus years ago the AKA was losing control of the
              KillieTalk email group. There were some bad feelings and bad acting
              members of the group. There were some hard feelings and a lot of very
              worthwhile information within the content of the group. So there was
              a lot of very good information and a little very bad words within the
              group of information in the posts. There were no pictures only points
              to some.

              Bottom line is I saved the bulk of the 5 years of information in
              emails and messages and bad stuff. I have since deleted the bad stuff
              and have seldom looked at the bulk of the old information. I kept the
              Fruit fly medium information and some of the Grindal & Daphnia
              culturing information and the rest just takes up hard drive space.
              When I change computers next time, I will probably leave it behind.

              Just a thought . . .

              Charles Harrison

              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57290 From: Raymond Wetzel Date: 11/4/2019
              Subject: Re: Saving content from group website......
              Hi Michael,

              Thank you very much for your kind offer.  As I'm fairly sure you may be aware that Yahoo/Verizon will be deleting all Yahoo Group archive on December 14, it would appear that we're in need of a new host for this group.  While I feel it would be of great benefit to retain the information in the archives, even though there's no traffic on this group presently, it would seem to be of very useful service to continue having it available for anyone to search at any time in the future.  Good to know you have the skills needed to do this, but first of all could you please inform us as to which hosts you have in mind?  Still, as I would prefer not to make such a move without this group's owner's knowledge and permission (and then there's the possibility of him moving the group himself), I'll be trying to locate his address somewhere in all the messages I've saved, to be able to inform him of these present discussions and an apparent need  to move the group ifv the archives are to be saved.  As this group has been inactive for some time now, just as most other groups have been, due to the current craze for Facebook and other social media, it's doubtful he's been paying much attention to what's going on here presently.  I'll get back to you if I can find our group owner's address and in the meantime, I'd appreciate knowing of these other hosts, or unless you have in mind to set up a new website for this group, which would seem to incur an expense. 

              Regards,

              Ray Wetzel   



              -----Original Message-----
              From: Michael Li columbia.cs@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
              To: AquaticLife <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Mon, Nov 4, 2019 4:41 am
              Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Saving content from group website......

               
              Are we in need of a new forum with the old content moved over? I have the skills to quickly set up a new forum website. 

              If there are enough interested members, I will go ahead and get it done.. Let me know.

              Sent from my iPhone

              On Nov 3, 2019, at 10:53 PM, Charles Harrison charles@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

               
              Hi Ray & Harry,
              A dozen plus years ago the AKA was losing control of the
              KillieTalk email group. There were some bad feelings and bad acting
              members of the group. There were some hard feelings and a lot of very
              worthwhile information within the content of the group. So there was
              a lot of very good information and a little very bad words within the
              group of information in the posts. There were no pictures only points
              to some.

              Bottom line is I saved the bulk of the 5 years of information in
              emails and messages and bad stuff. I have since deleted the bad stuff
              and have seldom looked at the bulk of the old information. I kept the
              Fruit fly medium information and some of the Grindal & Daphnia
              culturing information and the rest just takes up hard drive space.
              When I change computers next time, I will probably leave it behind.

              Just a thought . . .

              Charles Harrison

              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57291 From: Michael Li Date: 11/4/2019
              Subject: Re: Saving content from group website......
              My email address is: columbia.cs@.... I have a variety of hosting options available. Please get in touch with me if you would be interested in this project and saving some of our precious content.

              On Mon, Nov 4, 2019 at 6:50 AM Raymond Wetzel sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
               

              Hi Charles,

              By your name, I'm assuming that you may be Dr. Charles Harrison (from Missouri), whom we all come to respect.  As an AKA member myself for much longer than these 12 years ago you mentioned, I remember that period and the KillieTalk forum that the club had to move -- although only vaguely now.  I do understand what you're saying about needing very little of the 5 years of information you saved and your probable reluctance in bringing that info along to you next computer, which I can appreciate.  However, it's likely (just with continuing on this same notion) that another AKA member may find other KillieTalk messages much more necessary to his purposes and may want to retain it to have it on had continually to refer back to.  While your intent on not bringing your saved info along with you is certainly legitimate for your purposes, every aquarist has different needs of different information that's of various importance to him.  Much of the information stored on Aquatic Life is relevant to the very core of the group with many different subjects/questions/predicaments and their related answers/solutions prime to the very purpose of the group for the fishes' well being, not just incidentals like how to grow microworms.  I'm not at all trying to downplay your need of the time to have info on live food culture, and while the best of that same info may well have been found only on KillieTalk, with other relevant info having been posted on other sites but not being as informative.  Again, perfectly understandable to your needs, but what I'm trying to get across here is that we (Aquatic Life) very often delved into a myriad of subject pertaining to the actual preserving of life of the members' fish in so may different aspects depending on each one's specific problem, to a depth that can't be found elsewhere.  I truly appreciate your input on this and just wish we could have more such input like this, and I thank you for what you're bringing to light.  While I believe we have a different set of circumstances here, and while some of the stored info here may be found in books if the members only knew where to look -- although they often didn't (and so we'd direct them to knowledgeable sources such as the Baensch Atlas Volume 1) -- much more info is not to be found anywhere else in such depth even IF it's touched on in literature, which it often isn't.   This is why I've said that our archives are unique and valuable, while of course still having lots of superfluous stuff that's found on any other forum.  Many thanks again.     

              Best regards,

              Ray Wetzel


              -----Original Message-----
              From: Charles Harrison charles@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
              To: AquaticLife <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Sun, Nov 3, 2019 10:55 pm
              Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Saving content from group website......

               
              Hi Ray & Harry,
              A dozen plus years ago the AKA was losing control of the
              KillieTalk email group. There were some bad feelings and bad acting
              members of the group. There were some hard feelings and a lot of very
              worthwhile information within the content of the group. So there was
              a lot of very good information and a little very bad words within the
              group of information in the posts. There were no pictures only points
              to some.

              Bottom line is I saved the bulk of the 5 years of information in
              emails and messages and bad stuff. I have since deleted the bad stuff
              and have seldom looked at the bulk of the old information. I kept the
              Fruit fly medium information and some of the Grindal & Daphnia
              culturing information and the rest just takes up hard drive space.
              When I change computers next time, I will probably leave it behind.

              Just a thought . . .

              Charles Harrison

              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57292 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 11/4/2019
              Subject: Re: Saving content from group website......

              Hi Michael,

               That's a very kind offer & I would support it being done subject to the group's owner (if he can be found) giving it the go-ahead.

               Thank you, 

               John.

              On 04 November 2019 at 04:34 "Michael Li columbia.cs@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

               

              Are we in need of a new forum with the old content moved over? I have the skills to quickly set up a new forum website. 


              If there are enough interested members, I will go ahead and get it done.. Let me know.

              Sent from my iPhone

              On Nov 3, 2019, at 10:53 PM, Charles Harrison charles@... [AquaticLife] < AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

               

              Hi Ray & Harry,
              A dozen plus years ago the AKA was losing control of the
              KillieTalk email group. There were some bad feelings and bad acting
              members of the group. There were some hard feelings and a lot of very
              worthwhile information within the content of the group. So there was
              a lot of very good information and a little very bad words within the
              group of information in the posts. There were no pictures only points
              to some.

              Bottom line is I saved the bulk of the 5 years of information in
              emails and messages and bad stuff. I have since deleted the bad stuff
              and have seldom looked at the bulk of the old information. I kept the
              Fruit fly medium information and some of the Grindal & Daphnia
              culturing information and the rest just takes up hard drive space.
              When I change computers next time, I will probably leave it behind.

              Just a thought . . .

              Charles Harrison

               


               


               

              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57293 From: Raymond Wetzel Date: 11/4/2019
              Subject: Re: Saving content from group website......
              Hi John,

              Just thought I'd add that transferring everything to another host doesn't necessarily mean we'd leave this site with Yahoo groups -- at least not if we go with Groups.io as I'm in a group that switched to Group.io and it still retains the original Yahoo site.  That group's moderator discourages using Yahoo anymore so as not to have messages going to the old Yahoo site when most members are using the new Groups.io site and might miss the messages posted to the Yahoo site, but they're both usable.  I don't know if the same applies to transferring to other hosts, but perhaps Michael can fill us in on that.  If moving to any other host means that we still retain this Yahoo site, then I don't see why Aaron would be against this proposal as the Yahoo group would still be here and I think he should be pleased that we've thought of this.. 

              Ray.   



              -----Original Message-----
              From: SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
              To: AquaticLife <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Mon, Nov 4, 2019 5:29 pm
              Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Saving content from group website......

               
              Hi Michael,
               That's a very kind offer & I would support it being done subject to the group's owner (if he can be found) giving it the go-ahead.
               Thank you, 
               John.
              On 04 November 2019 at 04:34 "Michael Li columbia.cs@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

               
              Are we in need of a new forum with the old content moved over? I have the skills to quickly set up a new forum website. 

              If there are enough interested members, I will go ahead and get it done.. Let me know.

              Sent from my iPhone

              On Nov 3, 2019, at 10:53 PM, Charles Harrison charles@... [AquaticLife] < AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

               
              Hi Ray & Harry,
              A dozen plus years ago the AKA was losing control of the
              KillieTalk email group. There were some bad feelings and bad acting
              members of the group. There were some hard feelings and a lot of very
              worthwhile information within the content of the group. So there was
              a lot of very good information and a little very bad words within the
              group of information in the posts. There were no pictures only points
              to some.

              Bottom line is I saved the bulk of the 5 years of information in
              emails and messages and bad stuff. I have since deleted the bad stuff
              and have seldom looked at the bulk of the old information. I kept the
              Fruit fly medium information and some of the Grindal & Daphnia
              culturing information and the rest just takes up hard drive space.
              When I change computers next time, I will probably leave it behind.

              Just a thought . . .

              Charles Harrison

               

               

               
              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57294 From: Raymond Wetzel Date: 11/4/2019
              Subject: Re: Saving content from group website......
              Hi Michael,

              Just as John posted, I too thank you for your offer of help in transferring this group to another host.  As I'm sure you've seen by my last message to John, that I'm aware that if this group is transferred to Groups.io, that we'll still be retaining this Yahoo site as an alternate.  Do you know if the same applies to any other host we might transfer to?  I think all of us moderators would be interested in what other hosting options you could make available, so please fill us in on these options at your earliest opportunity.  Also, would a move to any other host than the Groups.io site be seamless, as the Groups.io is?  I realize that transferring any files (I think Harry mentioned there are 25 of them) would be relatively simple, but as far as transferring the archives, I also realize that could take a bit of extra work.  Would you be willing to do that for us in the course of the next 5+ weeks we have left before Yahoo pulls the plug on them?  No need to sort anything for best content since I doubt there would be time for that.  One other thing that comes to mind, and I'm assuming you presently have access to these archives, would you know if they'd fit in 1 GB of space or would they require much more?  Many thanks again for your generous offer of help when we need it most.

              Ray    . 



              -----Original Message-----
              From: Michael Li columbia.cs@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
              To: AquaticLife <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Mon, Nov 4, 2019 3:07 pm
              Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Saving content from group website......

               
              My email address is: columbia.cs@.... I have a variety of hosting options available. Please get in touch with me if you would be interested in this project and saving some of our precious content.

              On Mon, Nov 4, 2019 at 6:50 AM Raymond Wetzel sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
               
              Hi Charles,

              By your name, I'm assuming that you may be Dr. Charles Harrison (from Missouri), whom we all come to respect.  As an AKA member myself for much longer than these 12 years ago you mentioned, I remember that period and the KillieTalk forum that the club had to move -- although only vaguely now.  I do understand what you're saying about needing very little of the 5 years of information you saved and your probable reluctance in bringing that info along to you next computer, which I can appreciate.  However, it's likely (just with continuing on this same notion) that another AKA member may find other KillieTalk messages much more necessary to his purposes and may want to retain it to have it on had continually to refer back to.  While your intent on not bringing your saved info along with you is certainly legitimate for your purposes, every aquarist has different needs of different information that's of various importance to him.  Much of the information stored on Aquatic Life is relevant to the very core of the group with many different subjects/questions/predicaments and their related answers/solutions prime to the very purpose of the group for the fishes' well being, not just incidentals like how to grow microworms.  I'm not at all trying to downplay your need of the time to have info on live food culture, and while the best of that same info may well have been found only on KillieTalk, with other relevant info having been posted on other sites but not being as informative.  Again, perfectly understandable to your needs, but what I'm trying to get across here is that we (Aquatic Life) very often delved into a myriad of subject pertaining to the actual preserving of life of the members' fish in so may different aspects depending on each one's specific problem, to a depth that can't be found elsewhere.  I truly appreciate your input on this and just wish we could have more such input like this, and I thank you for what you're bringing to light.  While I believe we have a different set of circumstances here, and while some of the stored info here may be found in books if the members only knew where to look -- although they often didn't (and so we'd direct them to knowledgeable sources such as the Baensch Atlas Volume 1) -- much more info is not to be found anywhere else in such depth even IF it's touched on in literature, which it often isn't.   This is why I've said that our archives are unique and valuable, while of course still having lots of superfluous stuff that's found on any other forum.  Many thanks again.     

              Best regards,

              Ray Wetzel


              -----Original Message-----
              From: Charles Harrison charles@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
              To: AquaticLife <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Sun, Nov 3, 2019 10:55 pm
              Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Saving content from group website......

               
              Hi Ray & Harry,
              A dozen plus years ago the AKA was losing control of the
              KillieTalk email group. There were some bad feelings and bad acting
              members of the group. There were some hard feelings and a lot of very
              worthwhile information within the content of the group. So there was
              a lot of very good information and a little very bad words within the
              group of information in the posts. There were no pictures only points
              to some.

              Bottom line is I saved the bulk of the 5 years of information in
              emails and messages and bad stuff. I have since deleted the bad stuff
              and have seldom looked at the bulk of the old information. I kept the
              Fruit fly medium information and some of the Grindal & Daphnia
              culturing information and the rest just takes up hard drive space.
              When I change computers next time, I will probably leave it behind.

              Just a thought . . .

              Charles Harrison

              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57295 From: Michael Li Date: 11/4/2019
              Subject: Re: Saving content from group website......
              Where can I get access to the content we aim to save? Can someone post the link?

              On Mon, Nov 4, 2019 at 10:03 PM Raymond Wetzel sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
               

              Hi John,

              Just thought I'd add that transferring everything to another host doesn't necessarily mean we'd leave this site with Yahoo groups -- at least not if we go with Groups.io as I'm in a group that switched to Group.io and it still retains the original Yahoo site.  That group's moderator discourages using Yahoo anymore so as not to have messages going to the old Yahoo site when most members are using the new Groups.io site and might miss the messages posted to the Yahoo site, but they're both usable.  I don't know if the same applies to transferring to other hosts, but perhaps Michael can fill us in on that.  If moving to any other host means that we still retain this Yahoo site, then I don't see why Aaron would be against this proposal as the Yahoo group would still be here and I think he should be pleased that we've thought of this.. 

              Ray.   



              -----Original Message-----
              From: SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
              To: AquaticLife <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Mon, Nov 4, 2019 5:29 pm
              Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Saving content from group website......

               
              Hi Michael,
               That's a very kind offer & I would support it being done subject to the group's owner (if he can be found) giving it the go-ahead..
               Thank you, 
               John.
              On 04 November 2019 at 04:34 "Michael Li columbia..cs@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

               
              Are we in need of a new forum with the old content moved over? I have the skills to quickly set up a new forum website. 

              If there are enough interested members, I will go ahead and get it done.. Let me know.

              Sent from my iPhone

              On Nov 3, 2019, at 10:53 PM, Charles Harrison charles@... [AquaticLife] < AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

               
              Hi Ray & Harry,
              A dozen plus years ago the AKA was losing control of the
              KillieTalk email group. There were some bad feelings and bad acting
              members of the group. There were some hard feelings and a lot of very
              worthwhile information within the content of the group. So there was
              a lot of very good information and a little very bad words within the
              group of information in the posts. There were no pictures only points
              to some.

              Bottom line is I saved the bulk of the 5 years of information in
              emails and messages and bad stuff. I have since deleted the bad stuff
              and have seldom looked at the bulk of the old information. I kept the
              Fruit fly medium information and some of the Grindal & Daphnia
              culturing information and the rest just takes up hard drive space.
              When I change computers next time, I will probably leave it behind.

              Just a thought . . .

              Charles Harrison

               

               

               

              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57296 From: Raymond Wetzel Date: 11/4/2019
              Subject: Re: Saving content from group website......
              Hi Michael,

              As far as I'm aware, the archives, and I assume the files, may be found on this group's Home Page.  I'm unable to verify that presently though as when Yahoo instituted their then new "NEO" format several years ago, I was no longer able to access anything through the Home Page, but their "buttons" always used to be there previously.  If the material you're asking about isn't found on the Home Page, I'm sure Harry will be able to help you out in directing you to them. 

              Ray



              -----Original Message-----
              From: Michael Li columbia.cs@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
              To: AquaticLife <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Mon, Nov 4, 2019 10:29 pm
              Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Saving content from group website......

               
              Where can I get access to the content we aim to save? Can someone post the link?

              On Mon, Nov 4, 2019 at 10:03 PM Raymond Wetzel sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
               
              Hi John,

              Just thought I'd add that transferring everything to another host doesn't necessarily mean we'd leave this site with Yahoo groups -- at least not if we go with Groups.io as I'm in a group that switched to Group.io and it still retains the original Yahoo site.  That group's moderator discourages using Yahoo anymore so as not to have messages going to the old Yahoo site when most members are using the new Groups.io site and might miss the messages posted to the Yahoo site, but they're both usable.  I don't know if the same applies to transferring to other hosts, but perhaps Michael can fill us in on that.  If moving to any other host means that we still retain this Yahoo site, then I don't see why Aaron would be against this proposal as the Yahoo group would still be here and I think he should be pleased that we've thought of this.. 

              Ray.   



              -----Original Message-----
              From: SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
              To: AquaticLife <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Mon, Nov 4, 2019 5:29 pm
              Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Saving content from group website......

               
              Hi Michael,
               That's a very kind offer & I would support it being done subject to the group's owner (if he can be found) giving it the go-ahead..
               Thank you, 
               John.
              On 04 November 2019 at 04:34 "Michael Li columbia..cs@gmail..com [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

               
              Are we in need of a new forum with the old content moved over? I have the skills to quickly set up a new forum website. 

              If there are enough interested members, I will go ahead and get it done.. Let me know.

              Sent from my iPhone

              On Nov 3, 2019, at 10:53 PM, Charles Harrison charles@... [AquaticLife] < AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

               
              Hi Ray & Harry,
              A dozen plus years ago the AKA was losing control of the
              KillieTalk email group. There were some bad feelings and bad acting
              members of the group. There were some hard feelings and a lot of very
              worthwhile information within the content of the group. So there was
              a lot of very good information and a little very bad words within the
              group of information in the posts. There were no pictures only points
              to some.

              Bottom line is I saved the bulk of the 5 years of information in
              emails and messages and bad stuff. I have since deleted the bad stuff
              and have seldom looked at the bulk of the old information. I kept the
              Fruit fly medium information and some of the Grindal & Daphnia
              culturing information and the rest just takes up hard drive space.
              When I change computers next time, I will probably leave it behind.

              Just a thought . . .

              Charles Harrison

               

               

               
              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57297 From: Michael Li Date: 11/4/2019
              Subject: Re: Saving content from group website......
              Hi All,

              I am an avid aquarist and own many aquarium-related websites. For instance, I own Discus.com, an extremely successful e-commerce destination for discus fish, altums, plants, corys, tetras, etc. I possess the know-how to build anything I desire either in my personal aquarium or on the internet. I can build something far superior to the current Yahoo group or any Facebook group. For example, Search is a key feature that is omitted in most Social Networking groups.

              I could very easily write write a script to "harvest" the old archives and move them to a hosted destination. Space is not a problem, as I personally have access to 5 Terabytes of space. However, I would like to gain a sense as to who in this existing community would like to take over and moderate the new forum. If this would interest you, please get in touch with me privately.

              Regards,
              Michael

              On Mon, Nov 4, 2019 at 10:39 PM Raymond Wetzel sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
               

              Hi Michael,

              As far as I'm aware, the archives, and I assume the files, may be found on this group's Home Page.  I'm unable to verify that presently though as when Yahoo instituted their then new "NEO" format several years ago, I was no longer able to access anything through the Home Page, but their "buttons" always used to be there previously.  If the material you're asking about isn't found on the Home Page, I'm sure Harry will be able to help you out in directing you to them. 

              Ray



              -----Original Message-----
              From: Michael Li columbia.cs@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
              To: AquaticLife <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Mon, Nov 4, 2019 10:29 pm
              Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Saving content from group website......

               
              Where can I get access to the content we aim to save? Can someone post the link?

              On Mon, Nov 4, 2019 at 10:03 PM Raymond Wetzel sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
               
              Hi John,

              Just thought I'd add that transferring everything to another host doesn't necessarily mean we'd leave this site with Yahoo groups -- at least not if we go with Groups.io as I'm in a group that switched to Group.io and it still retains the original Yahoo site.  That group's moderator discourages using Yahoo anymore so as not to have messages going to the old Yahoo site when most members are using the new Groups.io site and might miss the messages posted to the Yahoo site, but they're both usable.  I don't know if the same applies to transferring to other hosts, but perhaps Michael can fill us in on that.  If moving to any other host means that we still retain this Yahoo site, then I don't see why Aaron would be against this proposal as the Yahoo group would still be here and I think he should be pleased that we've thought of this.. 

              Ray.   



              -----Original Message-----
              From: SIMMONDS JOHN simmonds.john@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
              To: AquaticLife <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Mon, Nov 4, 2019 5:29 pm
              Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Saving content from group website......

               
              Hi Michael,
               That's a very kind offer & I would support it being done subject to the group's owner (if he can be found) giving it the go-ahead...
               Thank you, 
               John.
              On 04 November 2019 at 04:34 "Michael Li columbia..cs@gmail..com [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

               
              Are we in need of a new forum with the old content moved over? I have the skills to quickly set up a new forum website. 

              If there are enough interested members, I will go ahead and get it done.. Let me know.

              Sent from my iPhone

              On Nov 3, 2019, at 10:53 PM, Charles Harrison charles@... [AquaticLife] < AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

               
              Hi Ray & Harry,
              A dozen plus years ago the AKA was losing control of the
              KillieTalk email group. There were some bad feelings and bad acting
              members of the group. There were some hard feelings and a lot of very
              worthwhile information within the content of the group. So there was
              a lot of very good information and a little very bad words within the
              group of information in the posts. There were no pictures only points
              to some.

              Bottom line is I saved the bulk of the 5 years of information in
              emails and messages and bad stuff. I have since deleted the bad stuff
              and have seldom looked at the bulk of the old information. I kept the
              Fruit fly medium information and some of the Grindal & Daphnia
              culturing information and the rest just takes up hard drive space.
              When I change computers next time, I will probably leave it behind.

              Just a thought . . .

              Charles Harrison

               

               

               

              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57298 From: harryfisherman Date: 11/13/2019
              Subject: testing e-mail
              This is just a test.


              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57299 From: harryfisherman Date: 11/13/2019
              Subject: Testing
              Another test


              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57300 From: Harry Perry Date: 11/13/2019
              Subject: Re: Saving Aquatic Life
              I think we should still go forward with our plan and let Dale move this group. We are running out of time.

              E-mails can still be sent from the group website but their is no storage.

              Harry


              On Wednesday, November 13, 2019, 9:35:19 AM EST, Raymond Wetzel sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <aquaticlife-noreply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


              Alright, perhaps if Aaron sees this and acts on it, he may be the one to save the group in the long run.  I hadn't given that a thought as I thought it was a lost cause.  It would seem that he'd be aware of Yahoo's actions on ending the functionality of these groups for all intents & purposes, but we'll see if he'll take any action on this problem.  Apparently, your using this "new" address I found for Aaron didn't result in a bounce, so at least we know he should see it. 

              I received a short email from Dale last night on one of my other user names (yahoo accounts), the < eriepacific > name you've seen me use in connection with Dale on VintageHO group, indicating he'll be looking into things as soon as he's been made a moderator as that would allow him more freedom to delve into the membership listing.  I'm not sure, but the last I recall seeing when I was able to, was that we had at least 3200 members -- (or was it 4200 members?) -- about the largest of any aquarium related group..    

              Ray


              -----Original Message-----
              From: Harry Perry harryfisherman@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife-noreply@yahoogroups.com>
              To: AquaticLife-owner <AquaticLife-owner@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Wed, Nov 13, 2019 9:09 am
              Subject: Fw: Saving Aquatic Life

              I sent this to Aaron.....maybe. We'll see.

              Harry


              ----- Forwarded Message -----
              From: Harry Perry <harryfisherman@...>
              To: "aaron_r_martin@..." <aaron_r_martin@...>
              Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2019, 9:06:53 AM EST
              Subject: Saving Aquatic Life

              Verizon is eliminating the functionality of all group websites. John, Ray and myself are doing everything we can to save as much as we can.

              Please respond

              Harry

              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57301 From: Raymond Wetzel Date: 11/13/2019
              Subject: Re: Testing
              Your test came through fine at my end, but in looking at Yahoo's four options at the very bottom, I don't see any of them as being valid to what we're expecting from them.  The only one that comes close is the last one, recommending the members to use < aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > when we already have the completely valid < aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com > for posting and receiving messages.  I don't understand Yahoo's suggestion for using that last ("normal") option.  Anyway, at least we know they're still with us.

              Ray


              -----Original Message-----
              From: harryfisherman@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
              To: AquaticLife <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Wed, Nov 13, 2019 9:29 am
              Subject: [AquaticLife] Testing

               

              Another test


              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57302 From: Raymond Wetzel Date: 11/13/2019
              Subject: Re: Saving Aquatic Life
              Okay, I'll agree to that -- unless Aaron comes back with real plan fast -- which I'm tending to doubt (as he hasn't done anything yet) but hopefully he'll surprise us.
              No need for storage at this time of our current emails, but I'd like to have the material saved, to include both the files and the archives if possible, but at least the archive if only one can be saved.

              Ray


              -----Original Message-----
              From: Harry Perry <harryfisherman@...>
              To: Raymond Wetzel <sevenspringss1@...>; AquaticLife <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Wed, Nov 13, 2019 9:42 am
              Subject: Re: Saving Aquatic Life

              I think we should still go forward with our plan and let Dale move this group. We are running out of time.

              E-mails can still be sent from the group website but their is no storage.

              Harry


              On Wednesday, November 13, 2019, 9:35:19 AM EST, Raymond Wetzel sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <aquaticlife-noreply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


              Alright, perhaps if Aaron sees this and acts on it, he may be the one to save the group in the long run.  I hadn't given that a thought as I thought it was a lost cause.  It would seem that he'd be aware of Yahoo's actions on ending the functionality of these groups for all intents & purposes, but we'll see if he'll take any action on this problem.  Apparently, your using this "new" address I found for Aaron didn't result in a bounce, so at least we know he should see it. 

              I received a short email from Dale last night on one of my other user names (yahoo accounts), the < eriepacific > name you've seen me use in connection with Dale on VintageHO group, indicating he'll be looking into things as soon as he's been made a moderator as that would allow him more freedom to delve into the membership listing.  I'm not sure, but the last I recall seeing when I was able to, was that we had at least 3200 members -- (or was it 4200 members?) -- about the largest of any aquarium related group..    

              Ray


              -----Original Message-----
              From: Harry Perry harryfisherman@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife-noreply@yahoogroups.com>
              To: AquaticLife-owner <AquaticLife-owner@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Wed, Nov 13, 2019 9:09 am
              Subject: Fw: Saving Aquatic Life

              I sent this to Aaron.....maybe. We'll see.

              Harry


              ----- Forwarded Message -----
              From: Harry Perry <harryfisherman@...>
              To: "aaron_r_martin@..." <aaron_r_martin@...>
              Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2019, 9:06:53 AM EST
              Subject: Saving Aquatic Life

              Verizon is eliminating the functionality of all group websites. John, Ray and myself are doing everything we can to save as much as we can.

              Please respond

              Harry

              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57303 From: Raymond Wetzel Date: 11/13/2019
              Subject: Re: Saving Aquatic Life
              Maybe I missed it, but has Dale been made a moderator yet?  Please excuse my asking if it was made apparent already.

              Ray


              -----Original Message-----
              From: Harry Perry harryfisherman@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
              To: Raymond Wetzel <sevenspringss1@...>; AquaticLife <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Wed, Nov 13, 2019 9:43 am
              Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Saving Aquatic Life

               

              I think we should still go forward with our plan and let Dale move this group. We are running out of time.

              E-mails can still be sent from the group website but their is no storage.

              Harry


              On Wednesday, November 13, 2019, 9:35:19 AM EST, Raymond Wetzel sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] <aquaticlife-noreply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


              Alright, perhaps if Aaron sees this and acts on it, he may be the one to save the group in the long run.  I hadn't given that a thought as I thought it was a lost cause.  It would seem that he'd be aware of Yahoo's actions on ending the functionality of these groups for all intents & purposes, but we'll see if he'll take any action on this problem.  Apparently, your using this "new" address I found for Aaron didn't result in a bounce, so at least we know he should see it. 

              I received a short email from Dale last night on one of my other user names (yahoo accounts), the < eriepacific > name you've seen me use in connection with Dale on VintageHO group, indicating he'll be looking into things as soon as he's been made a moderator as that would allow him more freedom to delve into the membership listing.  I'm not sure, but the last I recall seeing when I was able to, was that we had at least 3200 members -- (or was it 4200 members?) -- about the largest of any aquarium related group..    

              Ray


              -----Original Message-----
              From: Harry Perry harryfisherman@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife-noreply@yahoogroups.com>
              To: AquaticLife-owner <AquaticLife-owner@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Wed, Nov 13, 2019 9:09 am
              Subject: Fw: Saving Aquatic Life

              I sent this to Aaron.....maybe. We'll see.

              Harry


              ----- Forwarded Message -----
              From: Harry Perry <harryfisherman@...>
              To: "aaron_r_martin@..." <aaron_r_martin@...>
              Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2019, 9:06:53 AM EST
              Subject: Saving Aquatic Life

              Verizon is eliminating the functionality of all group websites. John, Ray and myself are doing everything we can to save as much as we can.

              Please respond

              Harry

              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57304 From: Trevor Holyoak Date: 11/13/2019
              Subject: Re: Testing
              Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.

              This means you subscribe by sending an e-mail to that address to get individual e-mails (rather than the digest options). It's not saying you would send group e-mails to that address.

              On 11/13/2019 7:45 AM, Raymond Wetzel sevenspringss1@... [AquaticLife] wrote:
              Your test came through fine at my end, but in looking at Yahoo's four options at the very bottom, I don't see any of them as being valid to what we're expecting from them.  The only one that comes close is the last one, recommending the members to use < aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > when we already have the completely valid < aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com > for posting and receiving messages.  I don't understand Yahoo's suggestion for using that last ("normal") option.  Anyway, at least we know they're still with us.

              Ray


              -----Original Message-----
              From: harryfisherman@... [AquaticLife] <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
              To: AquaticLife <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Wed, Nov 13, 2019 9:29 am
              Subject: [AquaticLife] Testing

               

              Another test



              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57305 From: Trevor Holyoak Date: 11/13/2019
              Subject: Re: Testing
              They both came through ok.

              On 11/13/2019 7:28 AM, harryfisherman@... [AquaticLife] wrote:
              Another test



              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57306 From: Harry Perry Date: 11/13/2019
              Subject: Trevor.....Testing message function
              Thank you. I was testing to see if we could still post from the group website. Obviously we can.

              However messages are no longer saved to message history.

              Thanks again

              Harry


              On Wednesday, November 13, 2019, 10:50:34 AM EST, Trevor Holyoak trevor@... [AquaticLife] <aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


               

              They both came through ok.

              On 11/13/2019 7:28 AM, harryfisherman@... [AquaticLife] wrote:
              Another test



              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57307 From: Dale Smith Date: 11/13/2019
              Subject: Re: Trevor.....Testing message function and an introduction
              My name is Dale Smith.  I am a friend of Ray Wetzel's and he asked me to become a member of this group to help save the data including the messages, files and photos.  I don't know much about tropical fish, but I do run a few websites and have transferred a few groups to groups.io.   Right now I am working with your moderators to save the data and chart a course for the future. I can assure you that all the data is safely preserved as of now and I am working with them on ways to proceed.

              As to this message, I thought it was strange that these last messages appeared on the website, but wouldn't be saved to the archive, so I updated my saved copy of this group and its data on PGOffline (a program designed to save Yahoo group content) and sure enough, the archive now contains Harry's message below and will contain my response as soon as I send it.   I think Yahoo is covering themselves and that the site will" unofficially" function as it has in the past until who knows when, they just aren't guaranteeing it.   I will also bet it will be a while after December 28 before they delete all the data.   I think they simply don't have their new software for the new groups model ready to go.   We will see. 

              Dale Smith


              On 11/13/2019 12:33 PM, Harry Perry harryfisherman@... [AquaticLife] wrote:
               
              Thank you. I was testing to see if we could still post from the group website. Obviously we can.

              However messages are no longer saved to message history.

              Thanks again

              Harry


              On Wednesday, November 13, 2019, 10:50:34 AM EST, Trevor Holyoak trevor@... [AquaticLife] <aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


               

              They both came through ok.

              On 11/13/2019 7:28 AM, harryfisherman@... [AquaticLife] wrote:
              Another test




              Virus-free. www.avg.com
              Group: AquaticLife Message: 57308 From: SIMMONDS JOHN Date: 11/13/2019
              Subject: Re: Trevor.....Testing message function and an introduction

              Hi Dale & welcome to the group. Many thanks for your kind offer of help

              Apologies to Ray & Harry, I've been out all day & have just picked up my (masses of) emails! Too may to reply individually but please carry on-you are all doing a great job & like Ray suggested earlier I don't know the first thing about IT so any help is gratefully accepted.

               Kind regards,

               John.

              ps-I had no idea we have (or had) 12 moderators.

              On 13 November 2019 at 21:19 "Dale Smith dale2680@... [AquaticLife]" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

               

              My name is Dale Smith.  I am a friend of Ray Wetzel's and he asked me to become a member of this group to help save the data including the messages, files and photos.  I don't know much about tropical fish, but I do run a few websites and have transferred a few groups to groups.io.   Right now I am working with your moderators to save the data and chart a course for the future. I can assure you that all the data is safely preserved as of now and I am working with them on ways to proceed.

              As to this message, I thought it was strange that these last messages appeared on the website, but wouldn't be saved to the archive, so I updated my saved copy of this group and its data on PGOffline (a program designed to save Yahoo group content) and sure enough, the archive now contains Harry's message below and will contain my response as soon as I send it.   I think Yahoo is covering themselves and that the site will" unofficially" function as it has in the past until who knows when, they just aren't guaranteeing it.   I will also bet it will be a while after December 28 before they delete all the data.   I think they simply don't have their new software for the new groups model ready to go.   We will see. 

              Dale Smith


              On 11/13/2019 12:33 PM, Harry Perry harryfisherman@... [AquaticLife] wrote:
               
              Thank you. I was testing to see if we could still post from the group website. Obviously we can.

              However messages are no longer saved to message history.

              Thanks again

              Harry


              On Wednesday, November 13, 2019, 10:50:34 AM EST, Trevor Holyoak trevor@... [AquaticLife] <aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


               

              They both came through ok.

              On 11/13/2019 7:28 AM, harryfisherman@... [AquaticLife] wrote:
              Another test




              Virus-free. www.avg.com