First Train In The World

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Group: vintageHO	Message: 24993	From: roger_aultman	Date: 2/13/2016
Subject: Re: Vintage Models!

--
It is no doubt that Athearn kept H-o affordable for many years more than might have otherwise occured I believe progress was also stalled. Remember scraping off cast on grabs to be replaced with wire add ons, swapping out open frame motors, horn hooks, plastic wheels, and painting and decalling road names not readily available. Lots of nostalgia available on eBay but I think todays products are superior.
Roger Aultman

-- "'John Hagen' sprinthag@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

=============
Walthers was not the “end all” of modeling accuracy by any means. But they had a good variety of kits not available from anyone else that, with a little craftsmanship, could produce some really well done models ….. for the time.

Frankly, with the current plethora of injection molded plastic kits that serve to limit the accuracy of models due to the need to have too many separate dies, their current over-priced stuff (and not just Walthers by any means), while better in fine detailing, are not as accurate over the full range of their line.

But, you can buy ‘em and stick ‘em on the rails and run ‘em. Most seldom check coupler heights, truck gauge or remove the nice shinny sheen. A guy (girl, robot) can spend a fortune on some rather well done models and end up with a bright, shiny model railroad that rivals the best Lionel could do in the 50’s for realism and does not keep o n the rails as well.

As Bill Joel said, “If this is moving up, then I’m moving out.”

That is why I still love the old stuff myself although there are some current offerings I do own or want to own.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Saturday, February 13, 2016 12:21 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Vintage Models!

Bob,

I'll probably catch grief from some folks on here for saying this but if you want truly primitive, you should try Earl Francis, Bathgate, and prewar Taylor Made (Walthers) kits. I refuse to build them anymore because some of the included materials were truly laughable. Yeah, I know--great for the times, better than nothing, etc., etc. But the effort it takes to make anything reasonably presentable is just not worth it anymore for me. The ultimate insult, for example, was asking the modeler to cut straight and true reefer roof ribs 1/32 wide out of a piece of rough cut and flimsy balsa wood maybe 1/16 wide. There wasn't enough wood fiber in the damn balsa at 1/32 to maintain any kind of rigidity or integrity for the purpose. Not to mention some of the truly crude hand-drawn, inaccurate, and tiny illustrations of building steps. To me kits from the 50's and 60's to which you refer were works of art in many cases--depending on your skills of course. One of my favorites from somewhat later is the long Empire City PRR merchandise box car. The wood sides and under body really make you not want to paint it and cover up the beautiful wood.

Along more lines of bitching I would like to include a 70' Walthers diner on which I am now working. It's probably from the late 50s (and apparently modified a bit later). But this one has a roof that was too long for the underbody and has wood strips cut in the general shape for air conditioning duct work (you know the kind I'm sure). What puzzles me is why they didn't shape the wood to fit the curve of the roof so the modeler wouldn't have to use wood filler to fill in the rough cuts necessary in the roof to install it. And that's after doing some fancy sanding and measuring to form the ends of the duct work to begin with.

I know Walthers is sacrosanct here for some, but it raises the question again concerning the intent of some manufacturers at times to simply sell kits--quality notwithstanding.

Gotta say, though, that I'm generally pleased with the quality of Walthers kits and many others from upscale manufacturers. Love to build 'em as long as this old guy can.

Art W

_____

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Group: vintageHO	Message: 24994	From: Doug Harris	Date: 2/13/2016
Subject: Re: Bellefont and Snowshoe {was] Roundhouse 0-6-0? - side rod attach

On 12/02/2016 17:31, ckinzer@... [vintageHO] wrote:

> I can’t discern your email address either from this message (in Windows
> Live Mail) or viewing it at the group site. And the only way I can ask
> for it is with a group message.

Many Thanks Charles!

Received all OK.

I've had a quick look at them, but need an evening with a couple of
hours spare time to really study..

Best Wishes from a hot Sunday afternoon in Auckland..

--
Cheers.

Doug Harris
Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 24995	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 2/13/2016
Subject: Re: Bellefont and Snowshoe {was] Roundhouse 0-6-0? - side rod attach

Think sideways……

Assuming a kid can get through school and learn to read…..

Anyone can buy a a $400 3d printer [I like the PrintrBot] , then print out a conversion head-mount to fit a Dremel or similar tool [file free on-line, from a free on-line library of the stuff that has many thousands if not tens of thousands of 3d print files], and a mount to fit a 3-4 watt solid-state laser cutter assembly at about $200 for the 3watt - 4watt laser assembly. Then use the same free software that you use for the 3d printer to operate as a cnc-mill or a laser-cutter as you need.

Slip over to get any of the many thousands of free card-model files from the Internet, [of which there are a thousand or more actual RR units ] or convert scale drawings into cut-lines with some uncomplicated editing in a graphics program. Cut blank or cut pre-printed, pre-decorated sides to laser-cut.

Stripwood sales dwindled in the LHS because those that made with it, bought it in needed adequate supply outside of the hobby shop. Kits in the LHS dwindled because the customers could order them direct instead of going to the LHS and finding again that they didn’t have what was wanted.

Do you know that you can buy a brand-new, but small, cnc-controlled x-y-z axis'd laser-engraver for just $80 today ??? You can also assemble a liquid resin 3d printer for just $40-$100 today.

The hobby is in transition, the hobby shops are going through the retirements of the owners as well as having many of their long in place locations being in deteriorating locations due to the declining economy.

The push-button 3d printers and other tools are coming. The latest are 3d printers that fast build in a resin tank in just a few minutes while other machines do the same in several hours. Those could be common in 2-4 years.

A good 3d scanner is now about $300……. like those long gone Red Ball detail parts? How many would you make if it’s ten minutes to scan and prep the file, and just a few minutes to make several of the parts?

examples…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3TgmvV2ElQ

Best to ya,

Mike Bauers

Milwaukee, Wi

On Feb 13, 2016, at 9:33 AM, corlissbs wrote:

I have seen ads on TV trying to get kids to spend one hour per day outside. When I was a kid, my parents had a hard time getting me indoors. Yes, times have changed. So, if you want to believe that the hobby is still strong, just keep telling yourself that.

I joined the local model boat club, as I wanted to build a tug. At 69, I am just about the youngest guy in the club! I have some boats that I BUILT. Look around and see the gray hair in our hobby or no hair like me. Do I wish for the days of building English or Bowser or Hobbytown locomotives, you bet I do. I'm afraid the article has hit it right on the head.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 24996	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 2/13/2016
Subject: Re: Vintage Models!

In like thinking, I still want to sit down and build a small vintage fleet from the early 50’s Bill Rau article.

All stripwood……..

Best to ya,

Mike Bauers

Milwaukee, Wi

On Feb 13, 2016, at 10:07 AM, Bob Macklin macklinbob@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Twenty years ago I was building highly detailed stuff. I really liked Red Caboose and Intermountain kits. I super detailed Roundhouse, Bowser, and Athearn locomotives.

But this time I am enjoying building the primitive kits made in the 50's and 60's.

I particularly like the pre plastic kits made by Varney, Athearn, Silver Streak, and Ulrich. I'm going to try some of the wood kits with the paper sides.

It's nice to see you can find this type of stuff on eBay NIB! Not many people want this kind of primitive stuff.

I wish I had MORE MONEY!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 24997	From: corlissbs	Date: 2/14/2016
Subject: Re: Bellefont and Snowshoe {was] Roundhouse 0-6-0? - side rod attach

Mike, please attend the Milwaukee Maker Faire at State Fair Park, this fall. The price is right-free. You will see people, both young and old, who make things. And there are model railroads. Electronics, like Arduino and even things for your wife. You will see all kinds of 3D printing and 3D routing, etc. and all kinds of things being made. Stop off and see me in my exhibit of clocks that I have made. There is everything from robotics to electric powered vehicles. You would love it.

Brad Smith

Franklin, WI

Group: vintageHO	Message: 24998	From: John Hagen	Date: 2/14/2016
Subject: Makers Faire

Brad,

Isn’t there a location on the Southside where many of the exhibitors meet during the rest of the year? Seems I had some info on that but, of course, miss-placed it.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2016 9:24 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Bellefont and Snowshoe {was] Roundhouse 0-6-0? - side rod attachment?

Brad Smith

Franklin, WI

Group: vintageHO	Message: 24999	From: corlissbs	Date: 2/14/2016
Subject: Re: Makers Faire

John:

Yes, it is the Milwaukee Makerspace, near the Allen Bradley building. Below is the URL. All the 3D printing machines you could want, electronics lab, machine shop, welding shop, foundry, wood shop and more.

http://milwaukeemakerspace.org/about/

The Milwaukee Maker Faire is the third largest in the US. Last year we had just under 50,000 visitors.

Brad

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25000	From: John Hagen	Date: 2/14/2016
Subject: Re: Makers Faire

Thanks, Brad.

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2016 10:48 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Makers Faire

John:

http://milwaukeemakerspace.org/about/

The Milwaukee Maker Faire is the third largest in the US. Last year we had just under 50,000 visitors.

Brad

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25001	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 2/14/2016
Subject: Re: Makers Faire

John look over theses and you’ll have a rough feel for the place..

http://milwaukeemakerspace.org/galleries/available-equipment/

I want to know where the 3d printer and laser cutter is in there? I see laser cut projects in the gallery, so its in there.

Best to ya,

Mike Bauers

Milwaukee, Wi

On Feb 14, 2016, at 11:15 AM, 'John Hagen' wrote:

Thanks, Brad.

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2016 10:48 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Makers Faire

John:

Yes, it is the Milwaukee Makerspace, near the Allen Bradley building. Below is the URL. All the 3D printing machines you could want, electronics lab, machine shop, welding shop, foundry, wood shop and more.
http://milwaukeemakerspace.org/about/

The Milwaukee Maker Faire is the third largest in the US. Last year we had just under 50,000 visitors.

Brad

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25002	From: Brad Smith	Date: 2/14/2016
Subject: Re: Makers Faire

Visitors night is every Tuesday.

Brad

Sent from Brad's iPod

On Feb 14, 2016, at 2:20 PM, Mike Bauers mwbauers55@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

John look over theses and you’ll have a rough feel for the place..

http://milwaukeemakerspace.org/galleries/available-equipment/

I want to know where the 3d printer and laser cutter is in there? I see laser cut projects in the gallery, so its in there.

Best to ya,
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi

On Feb 14, 2016, at 11:15 AM, 'John Hagen' wrote:

Thanks, Brad.

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2016 10:48 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Makers Faire

John:

Yes, it is the Milwaukee Makerspace, near the Allen Bradley building. Below is the URL. All the 3D printing machines you could want, electronics lab, machine shop, welding shop, foundry, wood shop and more.
http://milwaukeemakerspace.org/about/

The Milwaukee Maker Faire is the third largest in the US. Last year we had just under 50,000 visitors.

Brad

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25003	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 2/14/2016
Subject: Re: Makers Faire

I’ll get there someday when I’m not working second shift.

I can use some vacation time for it. A co-worker is a member there.

It looks to be a very interesting operation.

Best to ya,

Mike Bauers

Milwaukee, Wi

On Feb 14, 2016, at 2:23 PM, Brad Smith wrote:

Visitors night is every Tuesday.

Brad

Sent from Brad's iPod

On Feb 14, 2016, at 2:20 PM, Mike Bauers mwbauers55@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

John look over theses and you’ll have a rough feel for the place..

http://milwaukeemakerspace.org/galleries/available-equipment/

I want to know where the 3d printer and laser cutter is in there? I see laser cut projects in the gallery, so its in there.

Best to ya,
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi

On Feb 14, 2016, at 11:15 AM, 'John Hagen' wrote:

Thanks, Brad.

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2016 10:48 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Makers Faire

John:

Yes, it is the Milwaukee Makerspace, near the Allen Bradley building. Below is the URL. All the 3D printing machines you could want, electronics lab, machine shop, welding shop, foundry, wood shop and more.
http://milwaukeemakerspace.org/about/

The Milwaukee Maker Faire is the third largest in the US. Last year we had just under 50,000 visitors.

Brad

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25004	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 2/14/2016
Subject: Re: Bellefont and Snowshoe {was] Roundhouse 0-6-0? - side rod attach

I regretted missing it last time.

I’ll be sure to get to it.

Best to ya,

Mike Bauers

Milwaukee, Wi

On Feb 14, 2016, at 9:24 AM, corlissbs wrote:

Mike, please attend the Milwaukee Maker Faire at State Fair Park, this fall. The price is right-free. You will see people, both young and old, who make things. And there are model railroads. Electronics, like Arduino and even things for your wife. You will see all kinds of 3D printing and 3D routing, etc. and all kinds of things being made. Stop off and see me in my exhibit of clocks that I have made. There is everything from robotics to electric powered vehicles. You would love it.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25005	From: Carl Neste	Date: 2/14/2016
Subject: Re: WSJ article on end of the line for model trains

The link took me right there, and I'm not a subscriber.
Carl Neste

On 2/11/2016 2:09 PM, ckinzer@... [vintageHO] wrote:

It gives you a choice to just sign in instead of subscribe. Although I had trouble getting that to work. Although I can view the article with the link I provided. Maybe it thinks I am still “signed in”.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Windows Mail

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: ‎Thursday‎, ‎February‎ ‎11‎, ‎2016 ‎11‎:‎55‎ ‎AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Would be nice to read but I am not a subscriber.

Brad

Sent from Brad's iPod

On Feb 11, 2016, at 1:26 PM, ckinzer@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

This Wall Street Journal article was mentioned on the brasscollectors group today. Thought you might be interested:

http://www.wsj.com/articles/end-of-the-line-for-model-trains-aging-hobbyists-trundle-on-1455157546?cb=logged0.9767179925351794

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Windows Mail

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25006	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 2/14/2016
Subject: Re: WSJ article on end of the line for model trains

Not before, and not now for me.

Go figure….

Best to ya,

Mike Bauers

Milwaukee, Wi

On Feb 14, 2016, at 7:47 PM, Carl Neste wrote:

The link took me right there, and I'm not a subscriber.
Carl Neste

On 2/11/2016 2:09 PM, ckinzer@... [vintageHO] wrote:

It gives you a choice to just sign in instead of subscribe. Although I had trouble getting that to work. Although I can view the article with the link I provided. Maybe it thinks I am still “signed in”.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25007	From: Roger Whiffin	Date: 2/15/2016
Subject: Re: WSJ article on end of the line for model trains

Also a non-subr & I had no trouble reading it either

RogerW

From: "Mike Bauers mwbauers55@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, 15 February 2016, 4:15
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] WSJ article on end of the line for model trains

Not before, and not now for me.

Go figure….

Best to ya,

Mike Bauers

Milwaukee, Wi

On Feb 14, 2016, at 7:47 PM, Carl Neste wrote:

The link took me right there, and I'm not a subscriber.
Carl Neste

On 2/11/2016 2:09 PM, ckinzer@... [vintageHO] wrote:

It gives you a choice to just sign in instead of subscribe. Although I had trouble getting that to work. Although I can view the article with the link I provided. Maybe it thinks I am still “signed in”.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25008	From: Carl Neste	Date: 2/15/2016
Subject: Re: WSJ article on end of the line for model trains

The Model Railroad Hobbyist also has alink to the WSJ article.
Carl

On 2/11/2016 2:09 PM, ckinzer@... [vintageHO] wrote:

It gives you a choice to just sign in instead of subscribe. Although I had trouble getting that to work. Although I can view the article with the link I provided. Maybe it thinks I am still “signed in”.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Windows Mail

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: ‎Thursday‎, ‎February‎ ‎11‎, ‎2016 ‎11‎:‎55‎ ‎AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Would be nice to read but I am not a subscriber.

Brad

Sent from Brad's iPod

On Feb 11, 2016, at 1:26 PM, ckinzer@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

This Wall Street Journal article was mentioned on the brasscollectors group today. Thought you might be interested:

http://www.wsj.com/articles/end-of-the-line-for-model-trains-aging-hobbyists-trundle-on-1455157546?cb=logged0.9767179925351794

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Windows Mail

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25009	From: Valerie Smith	Date: 2/15/2016
Subject: Re: WSJ article on end of the line for model trains

Bob

I just converted a brass locomotive to DCC and sound for under $90, so I don't know where you're getting your info. The only thing that needs to be watched out for in the conversions is to make sure the engine has a can motor and insulated from the frame.

Kits are still available and the new company, Scale Trains.com is producing them along with ready to run.

Larry Smith

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25010	From: Bob Macklin	Date: 2/15/2016
Subject: Re: WSJ article on end of the line for model trains

The comment came from a hobby shop owner and I think he was talking about wireless control systems.

I like the kits from the 40's, 50's, and 60's now. eBay is my friend!

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: Valerie Smith wooddale@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, February 15, 2016 9:21 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] WSJ article on end of the line for model trains

Bob

I just converted a brass locomotive to DCC and sound for under $90, so I don't know where you're getting your info. The only thing that needs to be watched out for in the conversions is to make sure the engine has a can motor and insulated from the frame.

Kits are still available and the new company, Scale Trains.com is producing them along with ready to run.

Larry Smith

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25011	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 2/15/2016
Subject: Re: WSJ article on end of the line for model trains

Bob,

You're far from being alone. I'd have to guess that most of us here prefer the same types of kits, from the same years and even earlier. Actually, DCC is out of place here and could be considered "Off Topic." It's certainly not Vintage. For that matter, can motor conversions are seen as being Off Topic, as I can't think of a single early H0 manufacturer which offered a can motor in their kits. This is all not to say that a modeler may not do as he pleases -- after all, it's his hobby -- but then, he getting far removed from operating as vintage, and that's half the fun of it; to operate just as it was many years past as these models were meant to be built up.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/15/2016 5:42:09 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

The comment came from a hobby shop owner and I think he was talking about wireless control systems.

I like the kits from the 40's, 50's, and 60's now. eBay is my friend!

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: Valerie Smith wooddale@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, February 15, 2016 9:21 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] WSJ article on end of the line for model trains

Bob

I just converted a brass locomotive to DCC and sound for under $90, so I don't know where you're getting your info. The only thing that needs to be watched out for in the conversions is to make sure the engine has a can motor and insulated from the frame.

Kits are still available and the new company, Scale Trains.com is producing them along with ready to run.

Larry Smith

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25012	From: Larry	Date: 2/15/2016
Subject: Re: WSJ article on end of the line for model trains

Ray,

Depends on how early you are talking as I have a LaBelle wood kit that has a can motor drive which I purchase over 35 years ago. I am hoping someday to dust of the box and build it before I shuffle off of this mortal plain.

I am currently involved in a residential move but could post photos if anyone is interested.

Larry Miller III

From: "eriepacific@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, February 15, 2016 7:49 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] WSJ article on end of the line for model trains

Bob,

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/15/2016 5:42:09 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

The comment came from a hobby shop owner and I think he was talking about wireless control systems.

I like the kits from the 40's, 50's, and 60's now. eBay is my friend!

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: Valerie Smith wooddale@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, February 15, 2016 9:21 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] WSJ article on end of the line for model trains

Bob

I just converted a brass locomotive to DCC and sound for under $90, so I don't know where you're getting your info. The only thing that needs to be watched out for in the conversions is to make sure the engine has a can motor and insulated from the frame.

Kits are still available and the new company, Scale Trains.com is producing them along with ready to run.

Larry Smith

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25013	From: Bob Macklin	Date: 2/15/2016
Subject: Re: WSJ article on end of the line for model trains

Ray,

I have been amazed at the number of unbuilt kits from the 40's, 50's, and 60's are available on eBay.

With my limited spending money I try to get a couple per month. Now I have to get busy building them.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, February 15, 2016 5:49 PM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] WSJ article on end of the line for model trains

Bob,

You're far from being alone. I'd have to guess that most of us here prefer the same types of kits, from the same years and even earlier. Actually, DCC is out of place here and could be considered "Off Topic." It's certainly not Vintage. For that matter, can motor conversions are seen as being Off Topic, as I can't think of a single early H0 manufacturer which offered a can motor in their kits. This is all not to say that a modeler may not do as he pleases -- after all, it's his hobby -- but then, he getting far removed from operating as vintage, and that's half the fun of it; to operate just as it was many years past as these models were meant to be built up.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/15/2016 5:42:09 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

The comment came from a hobby shop owner and I think he was talking about wireless control systems.

I like the kits from the 40's, 50's, and 60's now. eBay is my friend!

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: Valerie Smith wooddale@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, February 15, 2016 9:21 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] WSJ article on end of the line for model trains

Bob

I just converted a brass locomotive to DCC and sound for under $90, so I don't know where you're getting your info. The only thing that needs to be watched out for in the conversions is to make sure the engine has a can motor and insulated from the frame.

Kits are still available and the new company, Scale Trains.com is producing them along with ready to run.

Larry Smith

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25014	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 2/15/2016
Subject: Re: WSJ article on end of the line for model trains

Larry,

Thanks very much for advising me of this. I was not aware that can motors were being used quite this far back, although 35 years ago brings us back to only 1980. This of course is not considered "vintage" by any stretch of the imagination. To be honest though, when I first read "35 years ago," I was picturing mid-60's as it's hard for an old timer to immediately (without taking a moment to reflect) grasp the fact that so many other years have gone by in the interum. It's like, where and how did all that time go by so fast. After all, 35 years ago is not all that long ago -- at least not when you're my age < g >.

Ray W.

In a message dated 2/15/2016 8:56:15 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Ray,

I am currently involved in a residential move but could post photos if anyone is interested.

Larry Miller III

Bob,

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/15/2016 5:42:09 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

The comment came from a hobby shop owner and I think he was talking about wireless control systems.

I like the kits from the 40's, 50's, and 60's now. eBay is my friend!

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: Valerie Smith wooddale@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, February 15, 2016 9:21 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] WSJ article on end of the line for model trains

Bob

I just converted a brass locomotive to DCC and sound for under $90, so I don't know where you're getting your info. The only thing that needs to be watched out for in the conversions is to make sure the engine has a can motor and insulated from the frame.

Kits are still available and the new company, Scale Trains.com is producing them along with ready to run.

Larry Smith

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25015	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 2/15/2016
Subject: Re: WSJ article on end of the line for model trains

Bob,

You can bet that a lot of these many kits that are still available unbuilt today are the result of model railroad hobbyists such as us who have accumulated many more kits than they either have time to build, or they just never made the time to enjoy building them for themselves. As a result, these are part of their estate. Build them now while you still can; that's what they were made for. While it's true that unbuilt kits have the highest value, they're only worth more to our benefactors -- IF they know what they're worth. You know, if we're collectors of this stuff -- any many of us are, or we wouldn't have the vintage models in our possession if we weren't -- we have no intention on selling these old items that we've taken the trouble to find. Yes, I know we can be proud to own an unbuilt Penn Line Reading Crusader kit, as an example, but we're really depriving ourselves of the pleasure of operating it if we never build it.

I'll admit, I'm one of these collectors of vintage H0, and have more than enough H0 equipment in kit form to require at least five lifetimes to build, if I were to start building them in earnest tomorrow (although I do just enjoy owning them as a collection). So yes, do get busy building them now -- and take your time to enjoy what you're doing to have a finished product that you can continue to enjoy as a model that meets your skills. If you come across one that you'd prefer to keep in kit form as it means more to you this way, just as one of a few that still remains in this form, there's nothing wrong with that. There are still plenty of vintage kits in existence that many of the early manufacturers produced in large enough numbers to built, which will never qualify as being close to being "one of a kind," and which building them with quality workmanship will never degrade their worth. Best of luck and enjoy!

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/15/2016 10:26:43 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Ray,

I have been amazed at the number of unbuilt kits from the 40's, 50's, and 60's are available on eBay.

With my limited spending money I try to get a couple per month. Now I have to get busy building them.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, February 15, 2016 5:49 PM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] WSJ article on end of the line for model trains

Bob,

You're far from being alone. I'd have to guess that most of us here prefer the same types of kits, from the same years and even earlier. Actually, DCC is out of place here and could be considered "Off Topic." It's certainly not Vintage. For that matter, can motor conversions are seen as being Off Topic, as I can't think of a single early H0 manufacturer which offered a can motor in their kits. This is all not to say that a modeler may not do as he pleases -- after all, it's his hobby -- but then, he getting far removed from operating as vintage, and that's half the fun of it; to operate just as it was many years past as these models were meant to be built up.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/15/2016 5:42:09 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

The comment came from a hobby shop owner and I think he was talking about wireless control systems.

I like the kits from the 40's, 50's, and 60's now. eBay is my friend!

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: Valerie Smith wooddale@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, February 15, 2016 9:21 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] WSJ article on end of the line for model trains

Bob

I just converted a brass locomotive to DCC and sound for under $90, so I don't know where you're getting your info. The only thing that needs to be watched out for in the conversions is to make sure the engine has a can motor and insulated from the frame.

Kits are still available and the new company, Scale Trains.com is producing them along with ready to run.

Larry Smith

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25016	From: Doug Harris	Date: 2/15/2016
Subject: Re: WSJ article on end of the line for model trains

On 16/02/2016 18:42, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] wrote:

> Larry,
> Thanks very much for advising me of this. I was not aware that can
> motors were being used quite this far back, although 35 years ago brings
> us back to only 1980. This of course is not considered "vintage" by any
> stretch of the imagination. To be honest though, when I first read "35
> years ago," I was picturing mid-60's as it's hard for an old timer to
> immediately (without taking a moment to reflect) grasp the fact that so
> many other years have gone by in the interum. It's like, where and how
> did all that time go by so fast. After all, 35 years ago is not all that
> long ago -- at least not when you're my age < g >.
> Ray W.

Right on, Ray!

--
Cheers.

Doug Harris
Auckland, New Zealand
AKA The Late Doug of Dannemora - still 77.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25017	From: Bob Macklin	Date: 2/15/2016
Subject: Re: WSJ article on end of the line for model trains

Ray,

Collectors or ACCUMULATORS?

I got my first Varney Dockside for my 12th birthday in 1946. In those days I only had a few cars. But I think I started my real accumulating in the 60's.

When I moved to Seattle in 2000 I had a major collection and no place to run any of them. I started selling them (mostly built) on eBay so support flying model airplanes. I'm now pretty much stuck in my RETIREMENT CLOSET so I have gone back to trains.

Between 2003 and 2008 I sold over 1700 items for over $25K!

But I still have a Globe SP Black Widow F-7A I bought in December 1955 at "The Original Whistle Stop" in Pasadena. I my watching for a matching F-7B to go with it. I may have to use an Athearn for the time being.

Some time back I got another early Varney Dockside (pre 1955) as near as NIB as you will probably find. It was assembled but appears to never have been run. The original owner did not even clean the flashing off the castings. It was never painted. It cost me $22!

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, February 15, 2016 10:22 PM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] WSJ article on end of the line for model trains

Bob,

You can bet that a lot of these many kits that are still available unbuilt today are the result of model railroad hobbyists such as us who have accumulated many more kits than they either have time to build, or they just never made the time to enjoy building them for themselves. As a result, these are part of their estate. Build them now while you still can; that's what they were made for. While it's true that unbuilt kits have the highest value, they're only worth more to our benefactors -- IF they know what they're worth. You know, if we're collectors of this stuff -- any many of us are, or we wouldn't have the vintage models in our possession if we weren't -- we have no intention on selling these old items that we've taken the trouble to find. Yes, I know we can be proud to own an unbuilt Penn Line Reading Crusader kit, as an example, but we're really depriving ourselves of the pleasure of operating it if we never build it.

I'll admit, I'm one of these collectors of vintage H0, and have more than enough H0 equipment in kit form to require at least five lifetimes to build, if I were to start building them in earnest tomorrow (although I do just enjoy owning them as a collection). So yes, do get busy building them now -- and take your time to enjoy what you're doing to have a finished product that you can continue to enjoy as a model that meets your skills. If you come across one that you'd prefer to keep in kit form as it means more to you this way, just as one of a few that still remains in this form, there's nothing wrong with that. There are still plenty of vintage kits in existence that many of the early manufacturers produced in large enough numbers to built, which will never qualify as being close to being "one of a kind," and which building them with quality workmanship will never degrade their worth. Best of luck and enjoy!

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/15/2016 10:26:43 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Ray,

I have been amazed at the number of unbuilt kits from the 40's, 50's, and 60's are available on eBay.

With my limited spending money I try to get a couple per month. Now I have to get busy building them.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, February 15, 2016 5:49 PM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] WSJ article on end of the line for model trains

Bob,

You're far from being alone. I'd have to guess that most of us here prefer the same types of kits, from the same years and even earlier. Actually, DCC is out of place here and could be considered "Off Topic." It's certainly not Vintage. For that matter, can motor conversions are seen as being Off Topic, as I can't think of a single early H0 manufacturer which offered a can motor in their kits. This is all not to say that a modeler may not do as he pleases -- after all, it's his hobby -- but then, he getting far removed from operating as vintage, and that's half the fun of it; to operate just as it was many years past as these models were meant to be built up.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/15/2016 5:42:09 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

The comment came from a hobby shop owner and I think he was talking about wireless control systems.

I like the kits from the 40's, 50's, and 60's now. eBay is my friend!

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: Valerie Smith wooddale@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, February 15, 2016 9:21 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] WSJ article on end of the line for model trains

Bob

I just converted a brass locomotive to DCC and sound for under $90, so I don't know where you're getting your info. The only thing that needs to be watched out for in the conversions is to make sure the engine has a can motor and insulated from the frame.

Kits are still available and the new company, Scale Trains.com is producing them along with ready to run.

Larry Smith

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25018	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 2/15/2016
Subject: Re: WSJ article on end of the line for model trains

I've been letting things drift a bit, but yes, per when I started the group, per our original statement DCC is definitely off topic. While I didn't say it I am getting concerned about reproductions too, small parts yes, but when members start talking about reproducing complete cars or locomotives, I do get concerned. The whole idea is to take the vintage pieces and RUN them.

I can't get really excited about things like motor conversions, because this is for people that OPERATE their models as well as admire them on the shelf, and upgrading things like trucks, couplers, etc, is fine, where do you draw the line?

Let's try and get back to what we were originally about, collecting and running the great vintage pieces of our youth.

Don

Don Dellmann
Contact me at: don.dellmann@...
See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

On 2/15/2016 7:49 PM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] wrote:

Bob,

You're far from being alone. I'd have to guess that most of us here prefer the same types of kits, from the same years and even earlier. Actually, DCC is out of place here and could be considered "Off Topic." It's certainly not Vintage. For that matter, can motor conversions are seen as being Off Topic, as I can't think of a single early H0 manufacturer which offered a can motor in their kits. This is all not to say that a modeler may not do as he pleases -- after all, it's his hobby -- but then, he getting far removed from operating as vintage, and that's half the fun of it; to operate just as it was many years past as these models were meant to be built up.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/15/2016 5:42:09 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

The comment came from a hobby shop owner and I think he was talking about wireless control systems.

I like the kits from the 40's, 50's, and 60's now. eBay is my friend!

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: Valerie Smith wooddale@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, February 15, 2016 9:21 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] WSJ article on end of the line for model trains

Bob

I just converted a brass locomotive to DCC and sound for under $90, so I don't know where you're getting your info. The only thing that needs to be watched out for in the conversions is to make sure the engine has a can motor and insulated from the frame.

Kits are still available and the new company, Scale Trains.com is producing them along with ready to run.

Larry Smith

--

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25019	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 2/16/2016
Subject: Re: WSJ article on end of the line for model trains

For that matter, what does 3-D printing of models and laser cutting of their parts have anything to do with vintage HO, except perhaps to copy the older models in replacing them with new? Might be a way of reproducing old parts that can no longer be found, but reproducing whole models in this manner is not vintage as I see it. While the topic is obviously interesting to some, it really has no place here.

Ray W.

In a message dated 2/16/2016 1:57:40 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

I've been letting things drift a bit, but yes, per when I started the group, per our original statement DCC is definitely off topic. While I didn't say it I am getting concerned about reproductions too, small parts yes, but when members start talking about reproducing complete cars or locomotives, I do get concerned. The whole idea is to take the vintage pieces and RUN them.

I can't get really excited about things like motor conversions, because this is for people that OPERATE their models as well as admire them on the shelf, and upgrading things like trucks, couplers, etc, is fine, where do you draw the line?

Let's try and get back to what we were originally about, collecting and running the great vintage pieces of our youth.

Don

Don Dellmann
Contact me at: don.dellmann@...
See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

On 2/15/2016 7:49 PM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] wrote:

Bob,

You're far from being alone. I'd have to guess that most of us here prefer the same types of kits, from the same years and even earlier. Actually, DCC is out of place here and could be considered "Off Topic." It's certainly not Vintage. For that matter, can motor conversions are seen as being Off Topic, as I can't think of a single early H0 manufacturer which offered a can motor in their kits. This is all not to say that a modeler may not do as he pleases -- after all, it's his hobby -- but then, he getting far removed from operating as vintage, and that's half the fun of it; to operate just as it was many years past as these models were meant to be built up.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/15/2016 5:42:09 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

The comment came from a hobby shop owner and I think he was talking about wireless control systems.

I like the kits from the 40's, 50's, and 60's now. eBay is my friend!

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: Valerie Smith wooddale@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, February 15, 2016 9:21 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] WSJ article on end of the line for model trains

Bob

I just converted a brass locomotive to DCC and sound for under $90, so I don't know where you're getting your info. The only thing that needs to be watched out for in the conversions is to make sure the engine has a can motor and insulated from the frame.

Kits are still available and the new company, Scale Trains.com is producing them along with ready to run.

Larry Smith

--

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25020	From: Dave Audley	Date: 2/16/2016
Subject: Re: WSJ article on end of the line for model trains

When I was working for Bob H. at Athabasca Scale Models, we often talked about how

many ASM kits were proabably stacked on shelves waiting to be built! We didn't very

often see finished models, and we offered free shirts & T-shirts for photos of finished kits!

Dave Audley

On Tuesday, February 16, 2016 3:56 AM, "eriepacific@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Ray W.

In a message dated 2/16/2016 1:57:40 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

I've been letting things drift a bit, but yes, per when I started the group, per our original statement DCC is definitely off topic. While I didn't say it I am getting concerned about reproductions too, small parts yes, but when members start talking about reproducing complete cars or locomotives, I do get concerned. The whole idea is to take the vintage pieces and RUN them.

I can't get really excited about things like motor conversions, because this is for people that OPERATE their models as well as admire them on the shelf, and upgrading things like trucks, couplers, etc, is fine, where do you draw the line?

Let's try and get back to what we were originally about, collecting and running the great vintage pieces of our youth.

Don

Don Dellmann
Contact me at: don.dellmann@...
See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

On 2/15/2016 7:49 PM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] wrote:

Bob,

You're far from being alone. I'd have to guess that most of us here prefer the same types of kits, from the same years and even earlier. Actually, DCC is out of place here and could be considered "Off Topic." It's certainly not Vintage. For that matter, can motor conversions are seen as being Off Topic, as I can't think of a single early H0 manufacturer which offered a can motor in their kits. This is all not to say that a modeler may not do as he pleases -- after all, it's his hobby -- but then, he getting far removed from operating as vintage, and that's half the fun of it; to operate just as it was many years past as these models were meant to be built up.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/15/2016 5:42:09 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

The comment came from a hobby shop owner and I think he was talking about wireless control systems.

I like the kits from the 40's, 50's, and 60's now. eBay is my friend!

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: Valerie Smith wooddale@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, February 15, 2016 9:21 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] WSJ article on end of the line for model trains

Bob

I just converted a brass locomotive to DCC and sound for under $90, so I don't know where you're getting your info. The only thing that needs to be watched out for in the conversions is to make sure the engine has a can motor and insulated from the frame.

Kits are still available and the new company, Scale Trains.com is producing them along with ready to run.

Larry Smith

--

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25021	From: Rick Jones	Date: 2/16/2016
Subject: Re: WSJ article on end of the line for model trains

Re: the original theme of this thread before drift occurred...
How are the other model hobbies doing at retaining interest and/or
growing? R/C cars, planes and drones seem to still be strong AFAIK. I
just bought a good drone 2 months ago, in fact, with a nice camera to
get some train videos like I've seen on YouTube.
I wonder how other aging organizations are doing these days; whether
they are continuing to appeal to the younger generations. I'm talking
about groups like the Masons, Elks, VFW, Eagles, Moose and the various
other fraternal orders. Are their numbers shriveling too?

--

Rick Jones

"Teach a child to be polite and courteous in the home and, when he grows
up, he'll never be able to edge his car onto a freeway."
-Stephen Wright

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25022	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 2/16/2016
Subject: Re: WSJ article on end of the line for model trains

I need to disagree to a degree.

I've long sought out Paul Moore traction, doodlebug, and passenger car kits.

Some years ago I got to see the remaining stock of his parts, un gathered kits, and production drawing masters. It was in a hobby shop after it was de-acquired from a private collector. It was in limbo as the new owner was simply holding on to the material with no intension of doing anything with it. I suppose it's all in the hands of some other collector by now.

I've got some of the kits I wanted. But they are very hard to come by and many that pop up are badly damaged by the building decades ago.

Over the years I've gathered several of Paul's well drawn catalog sheets and once found many of his blueprints that I was able to obtain.

Even one of the more specific kits I originally wanted back in 1968, found just a couple of years ago. About three months ago I was lucky enough to get one of his TMER&L planbooks in a small group of other plan books, along with some of the original Hi-F Athearn F7 drives used by some series of Paul's kits and plans.

Per his catalogs and drawings, he had some few hundred designs in limited production kits and plan books.the kits and parts are very rare these days from a one man venture that stopped operation about 1970.

So I'm in the situation that I either build in the fashion of Paul's work from his meant to be built from plan books or I'm not going to have his stuff to use.

Now that the largest gathering of his remaining stock is hidden away in the hands of a private collection, or disposed of as old trash; I'm left with options of making or not having.

I will not go the direction of not having after all these years of locating a few relics of his life's work.

His work included several plan books that were intended to be used to build according to those plans. His line drawing catalog sheets are reductions of similar plans. His plan books are duplicates of his blueprints he use to make the major parts of his kits and car sides. He would have those printed on the working stock material and then cut out those printed drawings as his kit parts.

Unlike other vintage model RR cast production, he had hand cut body panels as the bulk of his kits and offered parts.

Thus I have been incrementally creeping towards constructing those designs I've been wanting from what source material I've been able to find. P

Mike Bauers

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 16, 2016, at 5:55 AM, "Dave Audley audleydave@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

When I was working for Bob H. at Athabasca Scale Models, we often talked about how
many ASM kits were proabably stacked on shelves waiting to be built! We didn't very
often see finished models, and we offered free shirts & T-shirts for photos of finished kits!

Dave Audley
On Tuesday, February 16, 2016 3:56 AM, "eriepacific@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
For that matter, what does 3-D printing of models and laser cutting of their parts have anything to do with vintage HO, except perhaps to copy the older models in replacing them with new? Might be a way of reproducing old parts that can no longer be found, but reproducing whole models in this manner is not vintage as I see it. While the topic is obviously interesting to some, it really has no place here.

Ray W.

In a message dated 2/16/2016 1:57:40 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:
I've been letting things drift a bit, but yes, per when I started the group, per our original statement DCC is definitely off topic. While I didn't say it I am getting concerned about reproductions too, small parts yes, but when members start talking about reproducing complete cars or locomotives, I do get concerned. The whole idea is to take the vintage pieces and RUN them.

I can't get really excited about things like motor conversions, because this is for people that OPERATE their models as well as admire them on the shelf, and upgrading things like trucks, couplers, etc, is fine, where do you draw the line?

Let's try and get back to what we were originally about, collecting and running the great vintage pieces of our youth.

Don

Don Dellmann
Contact me at: don.dellmann@...
See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

On 2/15/2016 7:49 PM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] wrote:

Bob,

You're far from being alone. I'd have to guess that most of us here prefer the same types of kits, from the same years and even earlier. Actually, DCC is out of place here and could be considered "Off Topic." It's certainly not Vintage. For that matter, can motor conversions are seen as being Off Topic, as I can't think of a single early H0 manufacturer which offered a can motor in their kits. This is all not to say that a modeler may not do as he pleases -- after all, it's his hobby -- but then, he getting far removed from operating as vintage, and that's half the fun of it; to operate just as it was many years past as these models were meant to be built up.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/15/2016 5:42:09 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

The comment came from a hobby shop owner and I think he was talking about wireless control systems.

I like the kits from the 40's, 50's, and 60's now. eBay is my friend!

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: Valerie Smith wooddale@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, February 15, 2016 9:21 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] WSJ article on end of the line for model trains

Bob

I just converted a brass locomotive to DCC and sound for under $90, so I don't know where you're getting your info. The only thing that needs to be watched out for in the conversions is to make sure the engine has a can motor and insulated from the frame.

Kits are still available and the new company, Scale Trains.com is producing them along with ready to run.

Larry Smith
-- 

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25023	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 2/16/2016
Subject: Re: WSJ article on end of the line for model trains

The simple answer is that those service organizations are shrinking as well due to the sick economy and a multiplying new base of a culture of governmental dependency.

There is a growing portion of the population that has the lifestyle of having all things done for them and given to them.

The pool of individuals willing to participated in what are charitable societies at their core has shrunk due to many struggling in low quality jobs, often in more than just one job, just trying to provide for their families, leaving very little extra time and few resources available for participation in such organizations.

I would say that is a main factor.

Others are too depressing to go into.

Mike Bauers
Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 16, 2016, at 6:50 AM, "Rick Jones r.t.jones@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>
> Re: the original theme of this thread before drift occurred...
> How are the other model hobbies doing at retaining interest and/or
> growing? R/C cars, planes and drones seem to still be strong AFAIK. I
> just bought a good drone 2 months ago, in fact, with a nice camera to
> get some train videos like I've seen on YouTube.
> I wonder how other aging organizations are doing these days; whether
> they are continuing to appeal to the younger generations. I'm talking
> about groups like the Masons, Elks, VFW, Eagles, Moose and the various
> other fraternal orders. Are their numbers shriveling too?
>
> --
>
> Rick Jones
>
> "Teach a child to be polite and courteous in the home and, when he grows
> up, he'll never be able to edge his car onto a freeway."
> -Stephen Wright
>
>
> ------------------------------------

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25024	From: Brad Smith	Date: 2/16/2016
Subject: Re: WSJ article on end of the line for model trains

I liked Pauls models too.

Brad

Sent from Brad's iPod

On Feb 16, 2016, at 6:53 AM, Mike Bauers mwbauers55@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

I need to disagree to a degree.

I've long sought out Paul Moore traction, doodlebug, and passenger car kits.

Some years ago I got to see the remaining stock of his parts, un gathered kits, and production drawing masters. It was in a hobby shop after it was de-acquired from a private collector. It was in limbo as the new owner was simply holding on to the material with no intension of doing anything with it. I suppose it's all in the hands of some other collector by now.

I've got some of the kits I wanted. But they are very hard to come by and many that pop up are badly damaged by the building decades ago.

Over the years I've gathered several of Paul's well drawn catalog sheets and once found many of his blueprints that I was able to obtain.

Even one of the more specific kits I originally wanted back in 1968, found just a couple of &n bsp;years ago. About three months ago I was lucky enough to get one of his TMER&L planbooks in a small group of other plan books, along with some of the original Hi-F Athearn F7 drives used by some series of Paul's kits and plans.

Per his catalogs and drawings, he had some few hundred designs in limited production kits and plan books.the kits and parts are very rare these days from a one man venture that stopped operation about 1970.

So I'm in the situation that I either build in the fashion of Paul's work from his meant to be built from plan books or I'm not going to have his stuff to use.

Now that the largest gathering of his remaining stock is hidden away in the hands of a private collection, or disposed of as old trash; I'm left with options of making or not having.

I will not go the direction of not having after all these years of locating a few reli cs of his life's work.

His work included several plan books that were intended to be used to build according to those plans. His line drawing catalog sheets are reductions of similar plans. His plan books are duplicates of his blueprints he use to make the major parts of his kits and car sides. He would have those printed on the working stock material and then cut out those printed drawings as his kit parts.

Unlike other vintage model RR cast production, he had hand cut body panels as the bulk of his kits and offered parts.

Thus I have been incrementally creeping towards constructing those designs I've been wanting from what source material I've been able to find. P

Mike Bauers
Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 16, 2016, at 5:55 AM, "Dave Audley audleydave@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
When I was working for Bob H. at Athabasca Scale Models, we often talked about how
many ASM kits were proabably stacked on shelves waiting to be built! We didn't very
often see finished models, and we offered free shirts & T-shirts for photos of finished kits!

Dave Audley
On Tuesday, February 16, 2016 3:56 AM, "eriepacific@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
For that matter, what does 3-D printing of models and laser cutting of their parts have anything to do with vintage HO, except perhaps to copy the older models in replacing them with new? Might be a way of reproducing old parts that can no longer be found, but reproducing whole models in this manner is not vintage as I see it. While the topic is obviously interesting to some, it really has no place here.

Ray W.

In a message dated 2/16/2016 1:57:40 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:
I've been letting things drift a bit, but yes, per when I started the group, per our original statement DCC is definitely off topic. While I didn't say it I am getting concerned about reproductions too, small parts yes, but when members start talking about reproducing complete cars or locomotives, I do get concerned. The whole idea is to take the vintage pieces and RUN them.

I can't get really excited about things like motor conversions, because this is for people that OPERATE their models as well as admire them on the shelf, and upgrading things like trucks, couplers, etc, is fine, where do you draw the line?

Let's try and get back to what we were originally about, collecting and running the great vintage pieces of our youth.

Don

Don Dellmann
Contact me at: don.dellmann@...
See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

On 2/15/2016 7:49 PM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] wrote:

Bob,

You're far from being alone. I'd have to guess that most of us here prefer the same types of kits, from the same years and even earlier. Actually, DCC is out of place here and could be considered "Off Topic." It's certainly not Vintage. For that matter, can motor conversions are seen as being Off Topic, as I can't think of a single early H0 manufacturer which offered a can motor in their kits. This is all not to say that a modeler may not do as he pleases -- after all, it's his hobby -- but then, he getting far removed from operating as vintage, and that's half the fun of it; to operate just as it was many years past as these models were meant to be built up.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/15/2016 5:42:09 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

The comment came from a hobby shop owner and I think he was talking about wireless control systems.

I like the kits from the 40's, 50's, and 60's now. eBay is my friend!

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: Valerie Smith wooddale@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, February 15, 2016 9:21 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] WSJ article on end of the line for model trains

Bob

I just converted a brass locomotive to DCC and sound for under $90, so I don't know where you're getting your info. The only thing that needs to be watched out for in the conversions is to make sure the engine has a can motor and insulated from the frame.

Kits are still available and the new company, Scale Trains.com is producing them along with ready to run.

Larry Smith
-- 

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25025	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 2/16/2016
Subject: Re: WSJ article on end of the line for model trains

I had a mis-fire with my phone and I need to finish some thoughts…. found below….

Best to ya,

Mike Bauers

Milwaukee, Wi

On Feb 16, 2016, at 6:53 AM, Mike Bauers mwbauers55@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

I need to disagree to a degree.

I've long sought out Paul Moore traction, doodlebug, and passenger car kits.

Some years ago I got to see the remaining stock of his parts, un gathered kits, and production drawing masters. It was in a hobby shop after it was de-acquired from a private collector. It was in limbo as the new owner was simply holding on to the material with no intension of doing anything with it. I suppose it's all in the hands of some other collector by now.

I've got some of the kits I wanted. But they are very hard to come by and many that pop up are badly damaged by the building decades ago.

Over the years I've gathered several of Paul's well drawn catalog sheets and once found many of his blueprints that I was able to obtain.

Even one of the more specific kits I originally wanted back in 1968, found just a couple of years ago. About three months ago I was lucky enough to get one of his TMER&L planbooks in a small group of other plan books, along with some of the original Hi-F Athearn F7 drives used by some series of Paul's kits and plans.

Per his catalogs and drawings, he had some few hundred designs in limited production kits and plan books.the kits and parts are very rare these days from a one man venture that stopped operation about 1970.

So I'm in the situation that I either build in the fashion of Paul's work from his meant to be built from plan books or I'm not going to have his stuff to use.

Now that the largest gathering of his remaining stock is hidden away in the hands of a private collection, or disposed of as old trash; I'm left with options of making or not having.

I will not go the direction of not having after all these years of locating a few relics of his life's work.

His work included several plan books that were intended to be used to build according to those plans. His line drawing catalog sheets are reductions of similar plans. His plan books are duplicates of his blueprints he use to make the major parts of his kits and car sides. He would have those printed on the working stock material and then cut out those printed drawings as his kit parts.

Unlike other vintage model RR cast production, he had hand cut body panels as the bulk of his kits and offered parts.

Thus I have been incrementally creeping towards constructing those designs I've been wanting from what source material I've been able to find. P

Paul meant for his designs to be built from those plan books. I believe his other designs as seen in the catalog sheets were also put out in their own plan books. But those are even more rare than his remaining kits and assembled works.

So here I am, ready to make parts and assemblies from Paul’s plans in the sprit of his work, for models I’ve not been able to find. Models that he seems to have made somewhere from the 30’s to the 70’s. Some of those in the plan books don’t seem to have ever been produced other than those plans. So it’s up to me to build from those plans, as Paul intended.

But I’m going to update by having saved for an affordable laser-cutter and doing preliminary work on individual designs of Paul’s in the computer, then laser cutting a lot more swiftly than Paul’s kitchen table sessions with a sharp hobby knife for each car-side and many of his car ends.

The computer does straight and curved lines very well for me and the laser cutter handles arched windows and straight lines very well for me.

As I see it, if Paul was producing today, he would be using the same tools with his same source materials, source materials duplicated by him, that has survived his passing. Paul was kind enough to publish some How-to-Build-Trolley models in the major magazines. So his methods can be used decades later, which is now.

I think of it as still being Vintage HO modeling even if it’s not completely done with original components.

And…..

Building some of Paul's designs that were created to use those old Athearn Hi-F F7 mechs and then operating them on those vintage mechs is something I’m really looking forward to. Some others will go on vintage Model-Power/ROCO FA giant-motor mechs that I have. There simply aren’t enough findable Hi-F’s around……

And I do have a 3d printer that may see some related use. On the short list is a new-tech 3d scanner that is reliable, high-resolution, and low cost.

Those that have misgivings about 3d printing are overlooking that each part one makes, takes several hours to print-out. There will be no mass production of replica vintage parts for some time to come, from anywhere. Not until cheap versions of the prints-in minutes 3d printers become reality. So don’t worry about 3d printing being a problem for some years.

Mike Bauers
Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 16, 2016, at 5:55 AM, "Dave Audley audleydave@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

When I was working for Bob H. at Athabasca Scale Models, we often talked about how
many ASM kits were proabably stacked on shelves waiting to be built! We didn't very
often see finished models, and we offered free shirts & T-shirts for photos of finished kits!

Dave Audley

On Tuesday, February 16, 2016 3:56 AM, "eriepacific@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

For that matter, what does 3-D printing of models and laser cutting of their parts have anything to do with vintage HO, except perhaps to copy the older models in replacing them with new? Might be a way of reproducing old parts that can no longer be found, but reproducing whole models in this manner is not vintage as I see it. While the topic is obviously interesting to some, it really has no place here.

Ray W.

In a message dated 2/16/2016 1:57:40 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:
I've been letting things drift a bit, but yes, per when I started the group, per our original statement DCC is definitely off topic. While I didn't say it I am getting concerned about reproductions too, small parts yes, but when members start talking about reproducing complete cars or locomotives, I do get concerned. The whole idea is to take the vintage pieces and RUN them.

I can't get really excited about things like motor conversions, because this is for people that OPERATE their models as well as admire them on the shelf, and upgrading things like trucks, couplers, etc, is fine, where do you draw the line?

Let's try and get back to what we were originally about, collecting and running the great vintage pieces of our youth.

Don

Don Dellmann
Contact me at: don.dellmann@...
See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

On 2/15/2016 7:49 PM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] wrote:

Bob,

You're far from being alone. I'd have to guess that most of us here prefer the same types of kits, from the same years and even earlier. Actually, DCC is out of place here and could be considered "Off Topic." It's certainly not Vintage. For that matter, can motor conversions are seen as being Off Topic, as I can't think of a single early H0 manufacturer which offered a can motor in their kits. This is all not to say that a modeler may not do as he pleases -- after all, it's his hobby -- but then, he getting far removed from operating as vintage, and that's half the fun of it; to operate just as it was many years past as these models were meant to be built up.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/15/2016 5:42:09 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:
The comment came from a hobby shop owner and I think he was talking about wireless control systems.

I like the kits from the 40's, 50's, and 60's now. eBay is my friend!

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.
----- Original Message -----
From: Valerie Smith wooddale@... [vintageHO]
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, February 15, 2016 9:21 AM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] WSJ article on end of the line for model trains

Bob

I just converted a brass locomotive to DCC and sound for under $90, so I don't know where you're getting your info. The only thing that needs to be watched out for in the conversions is to make sure the engine has a can motor and insulated from the frame.

Kits are still available and the new company, Scale Trains.com is producing them along with ready to run.

Larry Smith

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25026	From: John Hagen	Date: 2/16/2016
Subject: Kudos to Don

Don,

I for one agree with you wholeheartedly. I do accept the idea of repowering as that adds to the idea of operating vintage models.

I do tend to vacillate on DCC as some of us would like to be able to operate our precious antiques on club or other layouts where DCC is the operating system. I feel as long as the ability to run on DC is not compromised it is probably okay.

That said I do draw a line at sound, at least anything digital. If someone happens to have one of the old Mantua Syncro-Steam Sound locos, well go for it.

This is my favorite group and one that I am delighted whenever I see new postings, even from Bauers’ (said in jest). You have done an excellent job of controlling content without becoming dictatorial. Keep up the great work.

BTW, did any of you notice the sale on eBay of an AB set of Mantua Sharks for $215.00. This was an auction that I was following but once it got to $60.00, two bidders when nuts. Heck, I couldn’t afford the $60.00 level. A nice set for sure, both powered and in totally bare metal, original boxes and all but the price is ridiculous. For a $50.00 item no less.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2016 12:57 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] WSJ article on end of the line for model trains

•

•

•

•

Messages in this topic (22)

http://www.dccwiki.com/DCC_History

· New Photos 1

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Group: vintageHO	Message: 25027	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 2/16/2016
Subject: Re: Kudos to Don

Man……

That’s an impressive price!

I tend to target items that need rebuilding and leave the obviously collectable items to the Mad Bidders crowd. I have some metal Mantua shark bodies to paint and power due to that thinking. If I hadn’t gone for those, I doubt I would have any Mantua Sharks.

Ebay does have it’s crazies. I recently saw issue-1, volume-1 of Narrow Gauge and short Line Gazette pass through eBay. Many years ago I passed up an original copy of it at $10. Some time last year I got it in digital format as part of the DVD archive of the Gazette and its predecessor magazines for a price in the low 100’.

That one issue sold for $475.00 on eBay. There may be a hundred issues in the DVD archive set. So I might have paid $1.25 an issue for the complete set.

$475 for one magazine…… NO WAY !!!

Best to ya,

Mike Bauers

Milwaukee, Wi

On Feb 16, 2016, at 8:40 AM, 'John Hagen' sprinthag@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

BTW, did any of you notice the sale on eBay of an AB set of Mantua Sharks for $215.00. This was an auction that I was following but once it got to $60.00, two bidders when nuts. Heck, I couldn’t afford the $60.00 level. A nice set for sure, both powered and in totally bare metal, original boxes and all but the price is ridiculous. For a $50.00 item no less.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25028	From: Ed Weldon	Date: 2/16/2016
Subject: Re: WSJ article on end of the line for model trains

Ray - I don't think DCC is off topic here. What's wrong with converting
old model train iron so it runs better? The antique car world has
thrived by following that formula, their purist restorer faction
notwithstanding.
If you have a pristine old Varney loco or the like then keep it
original. But if you've come on a beater perhaps better suited for
seeding your scrap box and the recycling bin and a remotoring will get
it back in service and a bit of electronics in the tender will thrill
the kids; then do it.
Old diecast loco mechanisms are in many ways different from brass
imports and what's under newer mass production locos. So discussions on
the specifics of those topics are certainly appropriate here.
Ed Weldon

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25029	From: Larry	Date: 2/16/2016
Subject: Re: WSJ article on end of the line for model trains

Ray,

Antique cars need only be 20 years of age in Illinois. I have children much older than that.

Anyway, I appreciate that most of the group members are older than I but I have been modelling since the mid 1970's as dad's interest in the hobby finally rubbed off and I quit building the plastic model cars which I had preferred since the early 1960's. Before that it was metal cap guns and coon skin caps.

I collect the few vintage locomotives and cars that I can afford nowadays as retirement looms in my near future (and, yes, you are all probably long standing members of the social security system). I have a great respect for those who can build power and equipment from scratch and enjoy cardstock structures for the same reasons. I cast figures in lead and kitbash from miscellaneous junk parts I have on my modelling bench.

I enjoy wood kits (especially LaBelle); am a fan of traction, interurbans, trolleys and streetcars; don't own anything DCC; plastic model kits are ok but I prefer wood, stamped tin, cardstock and wire.

I enjoy the postings in this group and thank you all for having me here.

Larry

From: "eriepacific@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, February 15, 2016 11:42 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] WSJ article on end of the line for model trains

Larry,

Ray W.

In a message dated 2/15/2016 8:56:15 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Ray,

I am currently involved in a residential move but could post photos if anyone is interested.

Larry Miller III

Bob,

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/15/2016 5:42:09 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

The comment came from a hobby shop owner and I think he was talking about wireless control systems.

I like the kits from the 40's, 50's, and 60's now. eBay is my friend!

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: Valerie Smith wooddale@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, February 15, 2016 9:21 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] WSJ article on end of the line for model trains

Bob

I just converted a brass locomotive to DCC and sound for under $90, so I don't know where you're getting your info. The only thing that needs to be watched out for in the conversions is to make sure the engine has a can motor and insulated from the frame.

Kits are still available and the new company, Scale Trains.com is producing them along with ready to run.

Larry Smith

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25030	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 2/16/2016
Subject: Re: WSJ article on end of the line for model trains

Bob,

I remember model airplane flying was extremely popular in the 1940's. I doubt if there were very many youngsters back then who didn't build and fly model airplanes even if they were only rubber band driven and not having an.049 gas engine -- besides having model trains. Very few RC planes though; most were "U" controlled on wires. Herkimer Tool & Model Works was one of the early gas engine manufacturers for model planes, the same Herkimer that produced a line of metal H0 passenger cars.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/16/2016 1:47:49 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Ray,

Collectors or ACCUMULATORS?

I got my first Varney Dockside for my 12th birthday in 1946. In those days I only had a few cars. But I think I started my real accumulating in the 60's.

When I moved to Seattle in 2000 I had a major collection and no place to run any of them. I started selling them (mostly built) on eBay so support flying model airplanes. I'm now pretty much stuck in my RETIREMENT CLOSET so I have gone back to trains.

Between 2003 and 2008 I sold over 1700 items for over $25K!

But I still have a Globe SP Black Widow F-7A I bought in December 1955 at "The Original Whistle Stop" in Pasadena. I my watching for a matching F-7B to go with it. I may have to use an Athearn for the time being.

Some time back I got another early Varney Dockside (pre 1955) as near as NIB as you will probably find. It was assembled but appears to never have been run. The original owner did not even clean the flashing off the castings. It was never painted. It cost me $22!

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, February 15, 2016 10:22 PM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] WSJ article on end of the line for model trains

Bob,

You can bet that a lot of these many kits that are still available unbuilt today are the result of model railroad hobbyists such as us who have accumulated many more kits than they either have time to build, or they just never made the time to enjoy building them for themselves. As a result, these are part of their estate. Build them now while you still can; that's what they were made for. While it's true that unbuilt kits have the highest value, they're only worth more to our benefactors -- IF they know what they're worth. You know, if we're collectors of this stuff -- any many of us are, or we wouldn't have the vintage models in our possession if we weren't -- we have no intention on selling these old items that we've taken the trouble to find. Yes, I know we can be proud to own an unbuilt Penn Line Reading Crusader kit, as an example, but we're really depriving ourselves of the pleasure of operating it if we never build it.

I'll admit, I'm one of these collectors of vintage H0, and have more than enough H0 equipment in kit form to require at least five lifetimes to build, if I were to start building them in earnest tomorrow (although I do just enjoy owning them as a collection). So yes, do get busy building them now -- and take your time to enjoy what you're doing to have a finished product that you can continue to enjoy as a model that meets your skills. If you come across one that you'd prefer to keep in kit form as it means more to you this way, just as one of a few that still remains in this form, there's nothing wrong with that. There are still plenty of vintage kits in existence that many of the early manufacturers produced in large enough numbers to built, which will never qualify as being close to being "one of a kind," and which building them with quality workmanship will never degrade their worth. Best of luck and enjoy!

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/15/2016 10:26:43 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Ray,

I have been amazed at the number of unbuilt kits from the 40's, 50's, and 60's are available on eBay.

With my limited spending money I try to get a couple per month. Now I have to get busy building them.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, February 15, 2016 5:49 PM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] WSJ article on end of the line for model trains

Bob,

You're far from being alone. I'd have to guess that most of us here prefer the same types of kits, from the same years and even earlier. Actually, DCC is out of place here and could be considered "Off Topic." It's certainly not Vintage. For that matter, can motor conversions are seen as being Off Topic, as I can't think of a single early H0 manufacturer which offered a can motor in their kits. This is all not to say that a modeler may not do as he pleases -- after all, it's his hobby -- but then, he getting far removed from operating as vintage, and that's half the fun of it; to operate just as it was many years past as these models were meant to be built up.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/15/2016 5:42:09 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

The comment came from a hobby shop owner and I think he was talking about wireless control systems.

I like the kits from the 40's, 50's, and 60's now. eBay is my friend!

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: Valerie Smith wooddale@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, February 15, 2016 9:21 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] WSJ article on end of the line for model trains

Bob

I just converted a brass locomotive to DCC and sound for under $90, so I don't know where you're getting your info. The only thing that needs to be watched out for in the conversions is to make sure the engine has a can motor and insulated from the frame.

Kits are still available and the new company, Scale Trains.com is producing them along with ready to run.

Larry Smith

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25031	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 2/16/2016
Subject: Re: WSJ article on end of the line for model trains

Mike,

I can appreciate the fact that Paul Moore models and parts are virtually impossible to come by. Due to their continued popularity today -- when they can be found -- the remaining availability of any of these products are quite scarce and practically non-existent. I can understand wanting to reproduce them as 3-D products especially as this would very closely follow Paul's blueprints. There's nothing wrong with that, but if they were to be produced in this manner, they could hardly be called "vintage," even if Paul himself produced them today.

In a message dated 2/16/2016 7:53:59 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

I need to disagree to a degree.

I've long sought out Paul Moore traction, doodlebug, and passenger car kits.

I've got some of the kits I wanted. But they are very hard to come by and many that pop up are badly damaged by the building decades ago.

Over the years I've gathered several of Paul's well drawn catalog sheets and once found many of his blueprints that I was able to obtain.

Even one of the more specific kits I originally wanted back in 1968, found just a couple of &n bsp;years ago. About three months ago I was lucky enough to get one of his TMER&L planbooks in a small group of other plan books, along with some of the original Hi-F Athearn F7 drives used by some series of Paul's kits and plans.

So I'm in the situation that I either build in the fashion of Paul's work from his meant to be built from plan books or I'm not going to have his stuff to use.

Now that the largest gathering of his remaining stock is hidden away in the hands of a private collection, or disposed of as old trash; I'm left with options of making or not having.

I will not go the direction of not having after all these years of locating a few relics of his life's work.

Unlike other vintage model RR cast production, he had hand cut body panels as the bulk of his kits and offered parts.

Thus I have been incrementally creeping towards constructing those designs I've been wanting from what source material I've been able to find. P

Mike Bauers

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 16, 2016, at 5:55 AM, "Dave Audley audleydave@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

When I was working for Bob H. at Athabasca Scale Models, we often talked about how

many ASM kits were proabably stacked on shelves waiting to be built! We didn't very

often see finished models, and we offered free shirts & T-shirts for photos of finished kits!

Dave Audley

On Tuesday, February 16, 2016 3:56 AM, "eriepacific@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

For that matter, what does 3-D printing of models and laser cutting of their parts have anything to do with vintage HO, except perhaps to copy the older models in replacing them with new? Might be a way of reproducing old parts that can no longer be found, but reproducing whole models in this manner is not vintage as I see it. While the topic is obviously interesting to some, it really has no place here.

Ray W.

In a message dated 2/16/2016 1:57:40 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

I've been letting things drift a bit, but yes, per when I started the group, per our original statement DCC is definitely off topic. While I didn't say it I am getting concerned about reproductions too, small parts yes, but when members start talking about reproducing complete cars or locomotives, I do get concerned. The whole idea is to take the vintage pieces and RUN them.

I can't get really excited about things like motor conversions, because this is for people that OPERATE their models as well as admire them on the shelf, and upgrading things like trucks, couplers, etc, is fine, where do you draw the line?

Let's try and get back to what we were originally about, collecting and running the great vintage pieces of our youth.

Don

Don Dellmann
Contact me at: don.dellmann@...
See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

On 2/15/2016 7:49 PM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] wrote:

Bob,

You're far from being alone. I'd have to guess that most of us here prefer the same types of kits, from the same years and even earlier. Actually, DCC is out of place here and could be considered "Off Topic." It's certainly not Vintage. For that matter, can motor conversions are seen as being Off Topic, as I can't think of a single early H0 manufacturer which offered a can motor in their kits. This is all not to say that a modeler may not do as he pleases -- after all, it's his hobby -- but then, he getting far removed from operating as vintage, and that's half the fun of it; to operate just as it was many years past as these models were meant to be built up.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/15/2016 5:42:09 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

The comment came from a hobby shop owner and I think he was talking about wireless control systems.

I like the kits from the 40's, 50's, and 60's now. eBay is my friend!

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: Valerie Smith wooddale@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, February 15, 2016 9:21 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] WSJ article on end of the line for model trains

Bob

I just converted a brass locomotive to DCC and sound for under $90, so I don't know where you're getting your info. The only thing that needs to be watched out for in the conversions is to make sure the engine has a can motor and insulated from the frame.

Kits are still available and the new company, Scale Trains.com is producing them along with ready to run.

Larry Smith

--

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25032	From: Valerie Smith	Date: 2/16/2016
Subject: Re: WSJ article on end of the line for model trains

I got to thinking and if you look at vintage control systems you will find that DCC had its beginnings in the late 60s. I remember operating on Allen McClellen's V&O with GE's ASTRAC which while not digital, it did work very similar to today's control systems with the locomotive answering to an address. The, for want of a better name, decoders were large the size of a photo flash cube, remember those guys, and was embedded is some kind of a gel material. I heard horror stories about trying to get them into the locomotives.

Larry Smith

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25033	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 2/16/2016
Subject: Re: WSJ article on end of the line for model trains

I'm not saying don't do it. (Truth be told I have two locomotives {non vintage} equipped with DCC just to run on a friend's layout.

I'm just saying this is not really the forum to talk about it

Don

On 2/16/2016 11:06 AM, Ed Weldon 23.weldon@... [vintageHO] wrote:

Ray - I don't think DCC is off topic here. What's wrong with converting
old model train iron so it runs better? The antique car world has
thrived by following that formula, their purist restorer faction
notwithstanding.
If you have a pristine old Varney loco or the like then keep it
original. But if you've come on a beater perhaps better suited for
seeding your scrap box and the recycling bin and a remotoring will get
it back in service and a bit of electronics in the tender will thrill
the kids; then do it.
Old diecast loco mechanisms are in many ways different from brass
imports and what's under newer mass production locos. So discussions on
the specifics of those topics are certainly appropriate here.
Ed Weldon

-- Don Dellmann Contact me at: don.dellmann@... See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25034	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 2/16/2016
Subject: Re: Kudos to Don

John,

The terms "okay" and "vintage" appear to be almost interchangeable in many of these posts. If the only way to operate a vintage piece on a club layout is to install DCC (while still retaining DC capacity), my take on it is that it positively is okay -- but it's no longer strictly a vintage piece simply because DCC is not vintage. Other modelers can the appreciate how a vintage piece appears even though it's not being operated as one.

As for (Mike) Bauers' posts, I enjoy every one of them I see. Mike has certain style all his own. I only have to start reading one of them and I already know who wrote it before scrolling down to see who signed it. BTW, I regret having forgot to sign my last post -- something that I almost never refrain from doing. My apologies to all. I saw my signature was missing only after I clicked on send and before it actually went. Too late to change things then.

No, I missed seeing those $215 Sharks. Hard to figure, when I know I must have seen at least a dozen or more over the past year going for an average of from $25 -- $30 to no more than $40 each. Why wouldn't this buyer try buying one of those when he had the chance? Shows that some modelers don't know the true value of stuff they bid on, or they have deep enough pockets to allow them not to care.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/16/2016 9:40:57 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Don,

I for one agree with you wholeheartedly. I do accept the idea of repowering as that adds to the idea of operating vintage models.

I do tend to vacillate on DCC as some of us would like to be able to operate our precious antiques on club or other layouts where DCC is the operating system. I feel as long as the ability to run on DC is not compromised it is probably okay.

That said I do draw a line at sound, at least anything digital. If someone happens to have one of the old Mantua Syncro-Steam Sound locos, well go for it.

This is my favorite group and one that I am delighted whenever I see new postings, even from Bauers’ (said in jest). You have done an excellent job of controlling content without becoming dictatorial. Keep up the great work.

BTW, did any of you notice the sale on eBay of an AB set of Mantua Sharks for $215.00. This was an auction that I was following but once it got to $60.00, two bidders when nuts. Heck, I couldn’t afford the $60.00 level. A nice set for sure, both powered and in totally bare metal, original boxes and all but the price is ridiculous. For a $50.00 item no less.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2016 12:57 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] WSJ article on end of the line for model trains

I've been letting things drift a bit, but yes, per when I started the group, per our original statement DCC is definitely off topic. While I didn't say it I am getting concerned about reproductions too, small parts yes, but when members start talking about reproducing complete cars or locomotives, I do get concerned. The whole idea is to take the vintage pieces and RUN them.

I can't get really excited about things like motor conversions, because this is for people that OPERATE their models as well as admire them on the shelf, and upgrading things like trucks, couplers, etc, is fine, where do you draw the line?

Let's try and get back to what we were originally about, collecting and running the great vintage pieces of our youth.

Don

Don Dellmann
Contact me at: don.dellmann@...
See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

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Group: vintageHO	Message: 25035	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 2/16/2016
Subject: Re: WSJ article on end of the line for model trains

Ed,

As I just got finished writing John, there's absolutely nothing wrong with converting a vintage model to DCC operation, whether its to run on a club layout or to have it run better. Using your "antique car" comparison though, if you were to repower a Ford Model T with a Cadillac V-8, I don't believe it would still retain the value of a vintage car, nor would it be seen by the antique car fraternity as a vintage car any longer, It would be considered a "Hot Rod," and not be as collectible as a similar untouched antique Modet T Ford.

There's been more than one rusting and neglected antique car rescued from some old farmer's field, and a beaten up dilapidated old Varney loco can be restored also to its former glory. That it may not be nearly pristine in the furthest stretch of the imagination is no reason to remotor it using a much newer motor. Of course, a modeler may take this course of action if he prefers, but that renders the previously vintage model an updated model; no longer a vintage model as came from the manufacturer. After all, Gordon Varney never included a can motor in his loco kits. It may be vintage in age, but not as a vintage representative of the model it once had been as it was manufactured.

Yes, I'll agree that old diecast mechanisms are different from brass imports, but of what relevance does that have here in remotoring antique engines with much newer motors?

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/16/2016 12:05:38 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25036	From: John Hagen	Date: 2/16/2016
Subject: Re: WSJ article on end of the line for model trains

The difference between Command Control and DCC (Digital Command Control).

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2016 1:10 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: WSJ article on end of the line for model trains

Larry Smith

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25037	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 2/16/2016
Subject: Re: WSJ article on end of the line for model trains

Larry,

Okay, I see each state may have different guidelines as to what age an auto must be to be an antique. In New Jersey, a car must be at least 25 years old before it's considered an antique. I'm not sure what this has to do with (vintage) model trains, but I believe Don mentioned a while back that he'd consider some models up to even 1980 or so to still be vintage, while most would need to be no more than from the 1960's decade and earlier. As I don't remember the statement precisely, I might not be 100% on, so I'd appreciate any correction here if needed.

What I might not consider as exactly vintage -- or possibly just border-line so -- are the Walthers reruns of Silver Streak and Ulrich, as an example, even though I've collected most of them. Before Walthers bought these lines though, Ulrich was already producing their cars under the Ulrich name and Silver Streak used to be Pacific HO. Now, they were vintage when first being produced. Should I just say that the Walthers reissues are "not as vintage" < g >.

Buy only what you feel you can afford right now. To try to buy more may take the enjoyment out of it if it leaves your retirement plans short. Yes, I and social security are well acquainted, but I still manage to seek out old H0 where I can find it. Good to see you're into kitbashing. That seems to be a lost craft today by more recent modelers. I also note your preferences with interest and commend you for them. I trust I may be able to comment for the group, that we enjoy having you. Thanks for some interesting posts.

Ray Wetzel

Ray,
Antique cars need only be 20 years of age in Illinois. I have children much older than that.

Anyway, I appreciate that most of the group members are older than I but I have been modelling since the mid 1970's as dad's interest in the hobby finally rubbed off and I quit building the plastic model cars which I had preferred since the early 1960's. Before that it was metal cap guns and coon skin caps.

I collect the few vintage locomotives and cars that I can afford nowadays as retirement looms in my near future ( and, yes, you are all probably long standing members of the social security system). I have a great respect for those who can build power and equipment from scratch and enjoy cardstock structures for the same reasons. I cast figures in lead and kitbash from miscellaneous junk parts I have on my modelling bench.

I enjoy wood kits (especially LaBelle); am a fan of traction, interurbans, trolleys and streetcars; don't own anything DCC; plastic model kits are ok but I prefer wood, stamped tin, cardstock and wire.

I enjoy the postings in this group and thank you all for having me here.

Larry

From: "eriepacific@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, February 15, 2016 11:42 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] WSJ article on end of the line for model trains
[Unable to display image]

Larry,

Thanks very much for advising me of this. I was not aware that can motors were being used quite this far back, although 35 years ago brings us back to only 1980. This of course is not considered "vintage" by any stretch of the imagination. To be honest though, when I first read "35 years ago," I was picturing mid-60's as it's hard for an old timer to immediately (without taking a moment to reflect) grasp the fact that so many other years have gone by in the interum. It's like, where and how did all that time go by so fast. After all, 35 years ago is not all that long ago -- at least not when you're my age < g >.

Ray W.

In a message dated 2/15/2016 8:56:15 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Ray,

Depends on how early you are talking as I have a LaBelle wood kit that has a can motor drive which I purchase over 35 years ago. I am hoping someday to dust of the box and build it before I shuffle off of this mortal plain.

I am currently involved in a residential move but could post photos if anyone is interested.

Larry Miller III

From: "eriepacific@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, February 15, 2016 7:49 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] WSJ article on end of the line for model trains

Bob,

You're far from being alone. I'd have to guess that most of us here prefer the same types of kits, from the same years and even earlier. Actually, DCC is out of place here and could be considered "Off Topic." It's certainly not Vintage. For that matter, can motor conversions are seen as being Off Topic, as I can't think of a single early H0 manufacturer which offered a can motor in their kits. This is all not to say that a modeler may not do as he pleases -- after all, it's his hobby -- but then, he getting far removed from operating as vintage, and that's half the fun of it; to operate just as it was many years past as these models were meant to be built up.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/15/2016 5:42:09 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

The comment came from a hobby shop owner and I think he was talking about wireless control systems.

I like the kits from the 40's, 50's, and 60's now. eBay is my friend!

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: Valerie Smith wooddale@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, February 15, 2016 9:21 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] WSJ article on end of the line for model trains

Bob

I just converted a brass locomotive to DCC and sound for under $90, so I don't know where you're getting your info. The only thing that needs to be watched out for in the conversions is to make sure the engine has a can motor and insulated from the frame.

Kits are still available and the new company, Scale Trains.com is producing them along with ready to run.

Larry Smith

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25038	From: trainliker	Date: 2/16/2016
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: WSJ article on end of the line for model trains

Attachments :

EDCO ad Feb 1952 MR.jpg

“Command Control” (not necessarily digital) was probably first started by Lionel of all people. (OK. Not HO, but part of the story). The second Lionel effort, the “Lionel Electronic Train Control” is the one best known to 3-railers and the set is called “The Electronic Set”.

Here is pretty good history of model railroad command control:

They mention EDCO in the 50’s. I guess that’s pretty vintage. I would like to see just what they did. I would like to see the plans they mention. Probably derivative of radio control airplane equipment at the time.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Windows Mail

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: ‎Tuesday‎, ‎February‎ ‎16‎, ‎2016 ‎11‎:‎09‎ ‎AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Larry Smith

@@attachment@@

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25039	From: John Hagen	Date: 2/16/2016
Subject: Re: WSJ article on end of the line for model trains

Ed,

I see your correlation with Vintage Cars. In 2002, I attended the Mopar Nationals in Ohio. One of the cars present was a 1953 Plymouth Cranbrook coupe, something I once had back around 1960 – 1962. This one was anything like mine though, having a blown 392 Hemi, and customized interior and a very wild paint job, along with improved drive train and suspension. Actually, except for the paint and some of the over kill in the interior I liked the car except for the fact that it was built using a low mileage, original car in really good condition. A car that should have been restored. Why couldn’t the guy find a car in need of total rebuilding instead? In my thinking he actually ruined a perfectly good car.

The pointy of all this is that I do understand the keeping of vintage trains as produced and modifications to them does change the basic nature of the beast.

IF I ever get the time I will finish a project of building a model of the GB&W #145, a 0-6-0, using a modified Mantua drive and Roundhouse boiler. But, I also have several unmodified Mantua 0-6-0’s, one or two I will keep as Mantua and God intended. I also have a few Sharks, of which some will be unmodified (especially my dual motored model) but at least one will use the Hobbytown drive and I intend to power another with the last Mantua diesel drive, the one with the can motor and flywheels (It is a very sweet running drive).

I guess each of us has his/her own personal idea of “vintage.”

Oh yeah, Mike’s posts. I enjoy them too, which is good because he posts on darn near every group I belong to, including some pretty well removed from trains or at least model trains.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2016 5:54 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: WSJ article on end of the line for model trains

Ed,

Yes, I'll agree that old diecast mechanisms are different from brass imports, but of what relevance does that have here in remotoring antique engines with much newer motors?

Ray Wetzel

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Group: vintageHO	Message: 25040	From: Bob Macklin	Date: 2/16/2016
Subject: Re: Kudos to Don

I don't know about the other DCC systems but with DiGiTrax you can run ONE DC locomotive with the DCC locomotives.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2016 3:22 PM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Kudos to Don

John,

The terms "okay" and "vintage" appear to be almost interchangeable in many of these posts. If the only way to operate a vintage piece on a club layout is to install DCC (while still retaining DC capacity), my take on it is that it positively is okay -- but it's no longer strictly a vintage piece simply because DCC is not vintage. Other modelers can the appreciate how a vintage piece appears even though it's not being operated as one.

As for (Mike) Bauers' posts, I enjoy every one of them I see. Mike has certain style all his own. I only have to start reading one of them and I already know who wrote it before scrolling down to see who signed it. BTW, I regret having forgot to sign my last post -- something that I almost never refrain from doing. My apologies to all. I saw my signature was missing only after I clicked on send and before it actually went. Too late to change things then.

No, I missed seeing those $215 Sharks. Hard to figure, when I know I must have seen at least a dozen or more over the past year going for an average of from $25 -- $30 to no more than $40 each. Why wouldn't this buyer try buying one of those when he had the chance? Shows that some modelers don't know the true value of stuff they bid on, or they have deep enough pockets to allow them not to care.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/16/2016 9:40:57 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Don,

I for one agree with you wholeheartedly. I do accept the idea of repowering as that adds to the idea of operating vintage models.

I do tend to vacillate on DCC as some of us would like to be able to operate our precious antiques on club or other layouts where DCC is the operating system. I feel as long as the ability to run on DC is not compromised it is probably okay.

That said I do draw a line at sound, at least anything digital. If someone happens to have one of the old Mantua Syncro-Steam Sound locos, well go for it.

This is my favorite group and one that I am delighted whenever I see new postings, even from Bauers’ (said in jest). You have done an excellent job of controlling content without becoming dictatorial. Keep up the great work.

BTW, did any of you notice the sale on eBay of an AB set of Mantua Sharks for $215.00. This was an auction that I was following but once it got to $60.00, two bidders when nuts. Heck, I couldn’t afford the $60.00 level. A nice set for sure, both powered and in totally bare metal, original boxes and all but the price is ridiculous. For a $50.00 item no less.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2016 12:57 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] WSJ article on end of the line for model trains

I've been letting things drift a bit, but yes, per when I started the group, per our original statement DCC is definitely off topic. While I didn't say it I am getting concerned about reproductions too, small parts yes, but when members start talking about reproducing complete cars or locomotives, I do get concerned. The whole idea is to take the vintage pieces and RUN them.

I can't get really excited about things like motor conversions, because this is for people that OPERATE their models as well as admire them on the shelf, and upgrading things like trucks, couplers, etc, is fine, where do you draw the line?

Let's try and get back to what we were originally about, collecting and running the great vintage pieces of our youth.

Don

Don Dellmann
Contact me at: don.dellmann@...
See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

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Group: vintageHO	Message: 25041	From: Doug Harris	Date: 2/16/2016
Subject: Re: WSJ article on end of the line for model trains

On 17/02/2016 11:42, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] wrote:

> Bob,
> I remember model airplane flying was extremely popular in the 1940's. I
> doubt if there were very many youngsters back then who didn't build and
> fly model airplanes even if they were only rubber band driven and not
> having an.049 gas engine -- besides having model trains. Very few RC
> planes though; most were "U" controlled on wires. Herkimer Tool & Model
> Works was one of the early gas engine manufacturers for model planes,
> the same Herkimer that produced a line of metal H0 passenger cars.
> Ray Wetzel

I remember the era well - I could never afford a gas engine - our family
was on a limited budget, and my mother kept an iron fist clamped around
the purse strings.. I never ever had an allowance - the concept was
foreign to us, and I never realised that other kids got 'pocket money'
every week!

Eventually, I decided that flying model planes was a mug's game - they
crashed, so I made model trains my hobby..

Did I make the right decision??

OK, far enough OT..

--
Cheers.

Doug Harris
Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25042	From: Doug Harris	Date: 2/16/2016
Subject: Bellefont and Snowshoe {was] Roundhouse 0-6-0 - now G&D it seems..

On 12/02/2016 17:31, ckinzer@... [vintageHO] wrote:

> I can’t discern your email address either from this message (in Windows
> Live Mail) or viewing it at the group site. And the only way I can ask
> for it is with a group message.
>
> But instead, why don’t I just direct you to where you can find those
> photos and MANY more.
>
> There was the www.gdlines.com <http://www.gdlines.com> site which has
> been down for some years now. But it is saved in the “wayback machine”.
> You won’t have access there to download ludicrous resolution versions of
> photos like at the original site, but what is there is still pretty good.
>
> Here is the last save of gdlines.com before the site went down:
>
> http://web.archive.org/web/20140517133548/http://gdlines.com/
>
> You would click “galleries” and then “locomotives”. For example, the
> photos I used are here:
>
> http://web.archive.org/web/20110623034541/http://gdlines.com/GD_Galleries/Locomotives/slides/12.html
>
> Also, Jeffery Witt has a lot of information at his site:
>
> http://gorre-and-daphetid.witt-family.com/
>
> Also, you might consider joining the GandD Yahoo group. Lots of stuff there.
>
> Finally, since you are in New Zealand and the site was developed in
> North America, you may have to turn your monitor upside down.

Not a problem - I just stand on my head.

Of course I get an Akinback, but I can cope with that..

Anyway, thanks for the info Charles, if I haven't replied already..

--
Cheers.

Doug Harris
Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25043	From: trainliker	Date: 2/16/2016
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] WSJ article on end of the line for model trains

I tried a little of a lot of things. Model cars and planes and ships. I remember that at a typical boy’s birthday party all the other boys brought plastic airplane kits and such as presents. One birthday I got THREE of the same Sikorsky helicopter model. Did gas engine stuff. Wood airplanes. Boats. You name it.

What really depressed me, and I think it is the loudest data point for all this, not just trains, is that I went into a “Hobby Lobby” for the first time last year. But where is the hobby stuff? At least what I always considered hobby stuff.

Everything that used to fill an entire store was in just one short aisle. A handful of plastic cars, planes, and ships (remember when there more of them than the endless rows of cereal boxes on supermarket shelves?) A couple of HO train sets. A half dozen track items blister packed. And that’s it.

I guess hobbies today are fake flowers, art, and buying knick knacks.

Some good news is, thanks to things like eBay, the flotsam and jetsam of our youth will keep circulating from steward to steward, closet to closet. People will continue to acquire with good intentions, but most will “not get around to it”.

I guess it’s true. You can’t go home again. But you can try.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Windows Mail

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: ‎Tuesday‎, ‎February‎ ‎16‎, ‎2016 ‎7‎:‎22‎ ‎PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

On 17/02/2016 11:42, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] wrote:
> Bob,
> I remember model airplane flying was extremely popular in the 1940's. I
> doubt if there were very many youngsters back then who didn't build and
> fly model airplanes even if they were only rubber band driven and not
> having an.049 gas engine -- besides having model trains. Very few RC
> planes though; most were "U" controlled on wires. Herkimer Tool & Model
> Works was one of the early gas engine manufacturers for model planes,
> the same Herkimer that produced a line of metal H0 passenger cars.
> Ray Wetzel

I remember the era well - I could never afford a gas engine - our family
was on a limited budget, and my mother kept an iron fist clamped around
the purse strings.. I never ever had an allowance - the concept was
foreign to us, and I never realised that other kids got 'pocket money'
every week!

Eventually, I decided that flying model planes was a mug's game - they
crashed, so I made model trains my hobby..

Did I make the right decision??

OK, far enough OT..

--
Cheers.

Doug Harris
Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25044	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 2/16/2016
Subject: Re: Kudos to Don

Interesting! I wouldn't know about that, Bob. I don't have (and don't want) any form of DCC. So then, from what you're describing, if a club has DiGiTrax (or possibly even another form of DCC that works similarly), there's no good reason to install DCC in a vintage loco to be able to operate it on such a layout. Thanks for the enlightenment.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/16/2016 8:41:29 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

I don't know about the other DCC systems but with DiGiTrax you can run ONE DC locomotive with the DCC locomotives.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2016 3:22 PM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Kudos to Don

John,

The terms "okay" and "vintage" appear to be almost interchangeable in many of these posts. If the only way to operate a vintage piece on a club layout is to install DCC (while still retaining DC capacity), my take on it is that it positively is okay -- but it's no longer strictly a vintage piece simply because DCC is not vintage. Other modelers can the appreciate how a vintage piece appears even though it's not being operated as one.

As for (Mike) Bauers' posts, I enjoy every one of them I see. Mike has certain style all his own. I only have to start reading one of them and I already know who wrote it before scrolling down to see who signed it. BTW, I regret having forgot to sign my last post -- something that I almost never refrain from doing. My apologies to all. I saw my signature was missing only after I clicked on send and before it actually went. Too late to change things then.

No, I missed seeing those $215 Sharks. Hard to figure, when I know I must have seen at least a dozen or more over the past year going for an average of from $25 -- $30 to no more than $40 each. Why wouldn't this buyer try buying one of those when he had the chance? Shows that some modelers don't know the true value of stuff they bid on, or they have deep enough pockets to allow them not to care.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/16/2016 9:40:57 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Don,

I for one agree with you wholeheartedly. I do accept the idea of repowering as that adds to the idea of operating vintage models.

I do tend to vacillate on DCC as some of us would like to be able to operate our precious antiques on club or other layouts where DCC is the operating system. I feel as long as the ability to run on DC is not compromised it is probably okay.

That said I do draw a line at sound, at least anything digital. If someone happens to have one of the old Mantua Syncro-Steam Sound locos, well go for it.

This is my favorite group and one that I am delighted whenever I see new postings, even from Bauers’ (said in jest). You have done an excellent job of controlling content without becoming dictatorial. Keep up the great work.

BTW, did any of you notice the sale on eBay of an AB set of Mantua Sharks for $215.00. This was an auction that I was following but once it got to $60.00, two bidders when nuts. Heck, I couldn’t afford the $60.00 level. A nice set for sure, both powered and in totally bare metal, original boxes and all but the price is ridiculous. For a $50.00 item no less.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2016 12:57 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] WSJ article on end of the line for model trains

I've been letting things drift a bit, but yes, per when I started the group, per our original statement DCC is definitely off topic. While I didn't say it I am getting concerned about reproductions too, small parts yes, but when members start talking about reproducing complete cars or locomotives, I do get concerned. The whole idea is to take the vintage pieces and RUN them.

I can't get really excited about things like motor conversions, because this is for people that OPERATE their models as well as admire them on the shelf, and upgrading things like trucks, couplers, etc, is fine, where do you draw the line?

Let's try and get back to what we were originally about, collecting and running the great vintage pieces of our youth.

Don

Don Dellmann
Contact me at: don.dellmann@...
See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

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Group: vintageHO	Message: 25045	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 2/16/2016
Subject: Re: WSJ article on end of the line for model trains

A lot of them are 1920's and earlier cars. That's another sort of vintage.

Other than the tooling, the construction is straight out of 1930's MR construction articles, and the bulk of the material to be used is recent production of the same materials used then.

It's really just a DIY that mirrors the same period construction that was done with pre-printed scale RR cars as you can find in the pages of MR, where they printed some pages of full color billboard reefers. Instead of using one page to build the model, you do the cutting on a number of identical pages to build up 3d relief in one model made from a few copies of the same side.

In many cases the original vintage model had its chassis built of cut art-card or thin wood. Again you make use of the same material as the 1930's article. But cut with a different tool.

Rivets are done either in Varney photoReal printed fashion or die impressed. Again as it was done then.

While the projects are not stock remnants of early kit production; they are designed to be built as the early kits were with very similar materials.

Just precut with something other than the older die cutting tooling.

Perhaps Vintage Tributes would be a good defining term for the things?

Mike Bauers

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 16, 2016, at 4:55 PM, "eriepacific@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Mike,

I can appreciate the fact that Paul Moore models and parts are virtually impossible to come by. Due to their continued popularity today -- when they can be found -- the remaining availability of any of these products are quite scarce and practically non-existent. I can understand wanting to reproduce them as 3-D products especially as this would very closely follow Paul's blueprints. There's nothing wrong with that, but if they were to be produced in this manner, they could hardly be called "vintage," even if Paul himself produced them today.

In a message dated 2/16/2016 7:53:59 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

I need to disagree to a degree.

I've long sought out Paul Moore traction, doodlebug, and passenger car kits.

Some years ago I got to see the remaining stock of his parts, un gathered kits, and production drawing masters. It was in a hobby shop after it was de-acquired from a private collector. It was in limbo as the new owner was simply holding on to the material with no intension of doing anything with it. I suppose it's all in the hands of some other collector by now.

I've got some of the kits I wanted. But they are very hard to come by and many that pop up are badly damaged by the building decades ago.

Over the years I've gathered several of Paul's well drawn catalog sheets and once found many of his blueprints that I was able to obtain.

Even one of the more specific kits I originally wanted back in 1968, found just a couple of &n bsp;years ago. About three months ago I was lucky enough to get one of his TMER&L planbooks in a small group of other plan books, along with some of the original Hi-F Athearn F7 drives used by some series of Paul's kits and plans.

Per his catalogs and drawings, he had some few hundred designs in limited production kits and plan books.the kits and parts are very rare these days from a one man venture that stopped operation about 1970.

So I'm in the situation that I either build in the fashion of Paul's work from his meant to be built from plan books or I'm not going to have his stuff to use.

Now that the largest gathering of his remaining stock is hidden away in the hands of a private collection, or disposed of as old trash; I'm left with options of making or not having.

I will not go the direction of not having after all these years of locating a few relics of his life's work.

His work included several plan books that were intended to be used to build according to those plans. His line drawing catalog sheets are reductions of similar plans. His plan books are duplicates of his blueprints he use to make the major parts of his kits and car sides. He would have those printed on the working stock material and then cut out those printed drawings as his kit parts.

Unlike other vintage model RR cast production, he had hand cut body panels as the bulk of his kits and offered parts.

Thus I have been incrementally creeping towards constructing those designs I've been wanting from what source material I've been able to find. P

Mike Bauers
Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 16, 2016, at 5:55 AM, "Dave Audley audleydave@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

When I was working for Bob H. at Athabasca Scale Models, we often talked about how

many ASM kits were proabably stacked on shelves waiting to be built! We didn't very

often see finished models, and we offered free shirts & T-shirts for photos of finished kits!

Dave Audley

On Tuesday, February 16, 2016 3:56 AM, "eriepacific@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

For that matter, what does 3-D printing of models and laser cutting of their parts have anything to do with vintage HO, except perhaps to copy the older models in replacing them with new? Might be a way of reproducing old parts that can no longer be found, but reproducing whole models in this manner is not vintage as I see it. While the topic is obviously interesting to some, it really has no place here.

Ray W.

In a message dated 2/16/2016 1:57:40 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

I've been letting things drift a bit, but yes, per when I started the group, per our original statement DCC is definitely off topic. While I didn't say it I am getting concerned about reproductions too, small parts yes, but when members start talking about reproducing complete cars or locomotives, I do get concerned. The whole idea is to take the vintage pieces and RUN them.

I can't get really excited about things like motor conversions, because this is for people that OPERATE their models as well as admire them on the shelf, and upgrading things like trucks, couplers, etc, is fine, where do you draw the line?

Let's try and get back to what we were originally about, collecting and running the great vintage pieces of our youth.

Don

Don Dellmann
Contact me at: don.dellmann@...
See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

On 2/15/2016 7:49 PM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] wrote:

Bob,

You're far from being alone. I'd have to guess that most of us here prefer the same types of kits, from the same years and even earlier. Actually, DCC is out of place here and could be considered "Off Topic." It's certainly not Vintage. For that matter, can motor conversions are seen as being Off Topic, as I can't think of a single early H0 manufacturer which offered a can motor in their kits. This is all not to say that a modeler may not do as he pleases -- after all, it's his hobby -- but then, he getting far removed from operating as vintage, and that's half the fun of it; to operate just as it was many years past as these models were meant to be built up.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/15/2016 5:42:09 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

The comment came from a hobby shop owner and I think he was talking about wireless control systems.

I like the kits from the 40's, 50's, and 60's now. eBay is my friend!

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: Valerie Smith wooddale@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, February 15, 2016 9:21 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] WSJ article on end of the line for model trains

Bob

I just converted a brass locomotive to DCC and sound for under $90, so I don't know where you're getting your info. The only thing that needs to be watched out for in the conversions is to make sure the engine has a can motor and insulated from the frame.

Kits are still available and the new company, Scale Trains.com is producing them along with ready to run.

Larry Smith

--

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25046	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 2/16/2016
Subject: Re: WSJ article on end of the line for model trains

I agree with both of you.

I would amend it just a bit.

A DCC locomotive is mostly a well running motor that is isolated from the frame, and connected by wiring.

Just changing a vintage unit from having a grounded motor makes it DCC ready.

It's not unseemly to add a plugged ( jumpered ) DCC socket to a vintage model that can at times house a compact DCC board allowing the vintage model to operate on either straight DC or DCC controlled layouts.

That way you are only making a minor change in the vintage models wiring.

The model remains otherwise original.

Mike Bauers

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 16, 2016, at 5:03 PM, "Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

I'm not saying don't do it. (Truth be told I have two locomotives {non vintage} equipped with DCC just to run on a friend's layout.

I'm just saying this is not really the forum to talk about it

Don

On 2/16/2016 11:06 AM, Ed Weldon 23.weldon@... [vintageHO] wrote:

Ray - I don't think DCC is off topic here. What's wrong with converting
old model train iron so it runs better? ....

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25047	From: trainliker	Date: 2/16/2016
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Kudos to Don

Here is a good primer on running a DC locomotive on a DCC system. It isn’t all hearts and roses.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Windows Mail

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: ‎Tuesday‎, ‎February‎ ‎16‎, ‎2016 ‎9‎:‎01‎ ‎PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/16/2016 8:41:29 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

I don't know about the other DCC systems but with DiGiTrax you can run ONE DC locomotive with the DCC locomotives.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2016 3:22 PM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Kudos to Don

John,

The terms "okay" and "vintage" appear to be almost interchangeable in many of these posts. If the only way to operate a vintage piece on a club layout is to install DCC (while still retaining DC capacity), my take on it is that it positively is okay -- but it's no longer strictly a vintage piece simply because DCC is not vintage. Other modelers can the appreciate how a vintage piece appears even though it's not being operated as one.

As for (Mike) Bauers' posts, I enjoy every one of them I see. Mike has certain style all his own. I only have to start reading one of them and I already know who wrote it before scrolling down to see who signed it. BTW, I regret having forgot to sign my last post -- something that I almost never refrain from doing. My apologies to all. I saw my signature was missing only after I clicked on send and before it actually went. Too late to change things then.

No, I missed seeing those $215 Sharks. Hard to figure, when I know I must have seen at least a dozen or more over the past year going for an average of from $25 -- $30 to no more than $40 each. Why wouldn't this buyer try buying one of those when he had the chance? Shows that some modelers don't know the true value of stuff they bid on, or they have deep enough pockets to allow them not to care.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/16/2016 9:40:57 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Don,

I for one agree with you wholeheartedly. I do accept the idea of repowering as that adds to the idea of operating vintage models.

I do tend to vacillate on DCC as some of us would like to be able to operate our precious antiques on club or other layouts where DCC is the operating system. I feel as long as the ability to run on DC is not compromised it is probably okay.

That said I do draw a line at sound, at least anything digital. If someone happens to have one of the old Mantua Syncro-Steam Sound locos, well go for it.

This is my favorite group and one that I am delighted whenever I see new postings, even from Bauers’ (said in jest). You have done an excellent job of controlling content without becoming dictatorial. Keep up the great work.

BTW, did any of you notice the sale on eBay of an AB set of Mantua Sharks for $215.00. This was an auction that I was following but once it got to $60.00, two bidders when nuts. Heck, I couldn’t afford the $60.00 level. A nice set for sure, both powered and in totally bare metal, original boxes and all but the price is ridiculous. For a $50.00 item no less.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2016 12:57 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] WSJ article on end of the line for model trains

I've been letting things drift a bit, but yes, per when I started the group, per our original statement DCC is definitely off topic. While I didn't say it I am getting concerned about reproductions too, small parts yes, but when members start talking about reproducing complete cars or locomotives, I do get concerned. The whole idea is to take the vintage pieces and RUN them.

I can't get really excited about things like motor conversions, because this is for people that OPERATE their models as well as admire them on the shelf, and upgrading things like trucks, couplers, etc, is fine, where do you draw the line?

Let's try and get back to what we were originally about, collecting and running the great vintage pieces of our youth.

Don

Don Dellmann
Contact me at: don.dellmann@...
See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

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Group: vintageHO	Message: 25048	From: Bob Macklin	Date: 2/16/2016
Subject: Re: Kudos to Don

Ray,

A couple months ago I asked our local club about running a DC locomotive on their DCC layout. They thought it could be done.

Bu they don't permit it. Plus they told me they use code 83 rails and our old locomotives won't stay on the track.

You can't put DCC in a Varney Dockside, Roundhouse 0-6-0T, Mantua Booster, or Mantua General.

I'm not going back to DCC. I have a 2' by 4' diorama. No need for DCC.

The club I was in Sacramento is now like the one here in Tacoma.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2016 9:01 PM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Kudos to Don

Interesting! I wouldn't know about that, Bob. I don't have (and don't want) any form of DCC. So then, from what you're describing, if a club has DiGiTrax (or possibly even another form of DCC that works similarly), there's no good reason to install DCC in a vintage loco to be able to operate it on such a layout. Thanks for the enlightenment.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/16/2016 8:41:29 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

I don't know about the other DCC systems but with DiGiTrax you can run ONE DC locomotive with the DCC locomotives.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2016 3:22 PM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Kudos to Don

John,

The terms "okay" and "vintage" appear to be almost interchangeable in many of these posts. If the only way to operate a vintage piece on a club layout is to install DCC (while still retaining DC capacity), my take on it is that it positively is okay -- but it's no longer strictly a vintage piece simply because DCC is not vintage. Other modelers can the appreciate how a vintage piece appears even though it's not being operated as one.

As for (Mike) Bauers' posts, I enjoy every one of them I see. Mike has certain style all his own. I only have to start reading one of them and I already know who wrote it before scrolling down to see who signed it. BTW, I regret having forgot to sign my last post -- something that I almost never refrain from doing. My apologies to all. I saw my signature was missing only after I clicked on send and before it actually went. Too late to change things then.

No, I missed seeing those $215 Sharks. Hard to figure, when I know I must have seen at least a dozen or more over the past year going for an average of from $25 -- $30 to no more than $40 each. Why wouldn't this buyer try buying one of those when he had the chance? Shows that some modelers don't know the true value of stuff they bid on, or they have deep enough pockets to allow them not to care.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/16/2016 9:40:57 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Don,

I for one agree with you wholeheartedly. I do accept the idea of repowering as that adds to the idea of operating vintage models.

I do tend to vacillate on DCC as some of us would like to be able to operate our precious antiques on club or other layouts where DCC is the operating system. I feel as long as the ability to run on DC is not compromised it is probably okay.

That said I do draw a line at sound, at least anything digital. If someone happens to have one of the old Mantua Syncro-Steam Sound locos, well go for it.

This is my favorite group and one that I am delighted whenever I see new postings, even from Bauers’ (said in jest). You have done an excellent job of controlling content without becoming dictatorial. Keep up the great work.

BTW, did any of you notice the sale on eBay of an AB set of Mantua Sharks for $215.00. This was an auction that I was following but once it got to $60.00, two bidders when nuts. Heck, I couldn’t afford the $60.00 level. A nice set for sure, both powered and in totally bare metal, original boxes and all but the price is ridiculous. For a $50.00 item no less.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2016 12:57 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] WSJ article on end of the line for model trains

I've been letting things drift a bit, but yes, per when I started the group, per our original statement DCC is definitely off topic. While I didn't say it I am getting concerned about reproductions too, small parts yes, but when members start talking about reproducing complete cars or locomotives, I do get concerned. The whole idea is to take the vintage pieces and RUN them.

I can't get really excited about things like motor conversions, because this is for people that OPERATE their models as well as admire them on the shelf, and upgrading things like trucks, couplers, etc, is fine, where do you draw the line?

Let's try and get back to what we were originally about, collecting and running the great vintage pieces of our youth.

Don

Don Dellmann
Contact me at: don.dellmann@...
See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

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Group: vintageHO	Message: 25049	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 2/16/2016
Subject: Re: Kudos to Don

Why not DCC in those models?

Nylon screws and washers will insulate the motors. The small no-sound DCC boards will fit in. You might have to put it on top of the General's tender under a fuel load.

The older motors can get new magnets to draw lower amperage.

But all three are do-able.

Mike Bauers
Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 17, 2016, at 12:33 AM, "Bob Macklin macklinbob@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>
> You can't put DCC in a Varney Dockside, Roundhouse 0-6-0T, Mantua Booster, or Mantua General.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25050	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 2/16/2016
Subject: Re: Kudos to Don

Philistines !!!

It sounds like no member of the club is savvy enough to reduce the flanges on those old models to RP-25.

I suppose they don't have a resident craftsman that owns a hobby lathe, nor know of one outside of the club membership, nor of anyone that uses a local Makers Club that would have access to that groups tools.

I being one that did my first such conversion in 1975, still am surprised how even now, so few RR models have the tool.

Mike Bauers
Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 17, 2016, at 12:33 AM, "Bob Macklin macklinbob@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>
> Bu they don't permit it. Plus they told me they use code 83 rails and our old locomotives won't stay on the track.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25051	From: luvprr2003	Date: 2/17/2016
Subject: Re: Kudos to Don

I'm a late arrival in this discussion, but I wanna just mention that I have a small HO layout that uses code 83 track, and it handles all my Bowser, Penn Line, and other makes of DC locos just fine (except for Challengers and Big Boys on the 22 in curves). And it easily converts to DCC which I have installed--though I only own 1 (one) DCC loco. Not a DCC fan here but did that in order to be able to say that I have a DCC layout and can claim to be a contemporary modeler if necessary! Plus, I wanted to keep up with developments in the hobby to some extent at least.

Art Waite

In a message dated 2/17/2016 2:48:02 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Philistines !!!

It sounds like no member of the club is savvy enough to reduce the flanges on those old models to RP-25.

I suppose they don't have a resident craftsman that owns a hobby lathe, nor know of one outside of the club membership, nor of anyone that uses a local Makers Club that would have access to that groups tools.

I being one that did my first such conversion in 1975, still am surprised how even now, so few RR models have the tool.

Mike Bauers
Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 17, 2016, at 12:33 AM, "Bob Macklin macklinbob@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>
> Bu they don't permit it. Plus they told me they use code 83 rails and our old locomotives won't stay on the track.

------------------------------------
Posted by: Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@...>
------------------------------------

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Group: vintageHO	Message: 25052	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 2/17/2016
Subject: Re: WSJ article on end of the line for model trains

If the object of this straightforward explanation is to show that such DIY models are still "vintage," it should be noted that while the construction of these models may be straight out of the 1930's, they are actually being made today in 2016. It's the year that models are produced as being part of why they're vintage and not the year they were reproduced by any other method or materials -- even if these methods and material were exactly the same as the original models.

There are duplicates of antique automobiles being produced today. They are not considered antiques by any stretch of the imagination, even though they mirror the same image, but they're referred to as "Reproductions." Again, absolutely nothing wrong with reproducing model trains, since the Real McCoy can't always be obtained -- and at least the modeler can enjoy what the original had looked like -- but it can't be considered a vintage model. It's great that there are still Paul Moore blueprints around, to be able to construct copies of his original models and yes, "Vintage Tributes" might be one term to describe them.

Just to briefly get back to references of antique automobiles that Larry and I were discussing, while a 20 or 25 year old car may be considered "antique" in Illinois and New Jersey respectively, this would date them only to 1996 and 1991 -- hardly looking at all like the antique cars we're all familiar with as cars of this description, yet old enough to be considered as such by these states. As I've always been accustomed to, Antique cars have always been those that were manufactured pre-WW II. All other older cars not going back quite that far, but still considered by most states to qualify for obtaining antique license (registration) plates/tags are considered as Classic Cars by most owners of them.

While this group is referring to these older H0 models as being vintage, we're still not describing them as antique -- even though many of them are pre-War (and are obviously antiques as we would consider the term). For furniture to be an antique, it's required that it must be at least 100 years old and 50 years old qualifies it as vintage. So by this, it can be seen that auto or furniture designations have no close correlation with model trains although the time frames are similar -- at least for vintage H0 -- where furniture going back to 1966 and earlier is vintage. By that standard though, none of us have any antique H0 unless we can find models produced in 1916 or before < g >.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/17/2016 12:40:39 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

In many cases the original vintage model had its chassis built of cut art-card or thin wood. Again you make use of the same material as the 1930's article. But cut with a different tool.

Rivets are done either in Varney ph otoReal printed fashion or die impressed. Again as it was done then.

While the projects are not stock remnants of early kit production; they are designed to be built as the early kits were with very similar materials.

Just precut with something other than the older die cutting tooling.

Perhaps Vintage Tributes would be a good defining term for the things?

Mike Bauers

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 16, 2016, at 4:55 PM, "eriepacific@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Mike,

I can appreciate the fact that Paul Moore models and parts are virtually impossible to come by. Due to their continued popularity today -- when they can be found -- the remaining availability of any of these products are quite scarce and practically non-existent. I can understand wanting to reproduce them as 3-D products especially as this would very closely follow Paul's blueprints. There's nothing wrong with that, but if they were to be produced in this manner, they could hardly be called "vintage," even if Paul himself produced them today.

In a message dated 2/16/2016 7:53:59 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

I need to disagree to a degree.

I've long sought out Paul Moore traction, doodlebug, and passenger car kits.

Some years ago I got to see the remaining stock of his parts, un gathered kits, and production drawing masters. It was in a hobby shop after it was de-acquired from a private collector. It was in limbo as the new owner was simply holding on to the material with no intension of doing anything with it. I suppose it's all in the hands of some other collector by now.

I've got some of the kits I wanted. But they are very hard to come by and many that pop up are badly damaged by the building decades ago.

Over the years I've gathered several of Paul's well drawn catalog sheets and once found many of his blueprints that I was able to obtain.

Even one of the more specific kits I originally wanted back in 1968, found just a couple of &n bsp;years ago. About three months ago I was lucky enough to get one of his TMER&L planbooks in a small group of other plan books, along with some of the original Hi-F Athearn F7 drives used by some series of Paul's kits and plans.

Per his catalogs and drawings, he had some few hundred designs in limited production kits and plan books.the kits and parts are very rare these days from a one man venture that stopped operation about 1970.

So I'm in the situation that I either build in the fashion of Paul's work from his meant to be built from plan books or I'm not going to have his stuff to use.

Now that the largest gathering of his remaining stock is hidden away in the hands of a private collection, or disposed of as old trash; I'm left with options of making or not having.

I will not go the direction of not having after all these years of locating a few relics of his life's work.

His work included several plan books that were intended to be used to build according to those plans. His line drawing catalog sheets are reductions of similar plans. His plan books are duplicates of his blueprints he use to make the major parts of his kits and car sides. He would have those printed on the working stock material and then cut out those printed drawings as his kit parts.

Unlike other vintage model RR cast production, he had hand cut body panels as the bulk of his kits and offered parts.

Thus I have been incrementally creeping towards constructing those designs I've been wanting from what source material I've been able to find. P

Mike Bauers
Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 16, 2016, at 5:55 AM, "Dave Audley audleydave@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

When I was working for Bob H. at Athabasca Scale Models, we often talked about how

many ASM kits were proabably stacked on shelves waiting to be built! We didn't very

often see finished models, and we offered free shirts & T-shirts for photos of finished kits!

Dave Audley

On Tuesday, February 16, 2016 3:56 AM, "eriepacific@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

For that matter, what does 3-D printing of models and laser cutting of their parts have anything to do with vintage HO, except perhaps to copy the older models in replacing them with new? Might be a way of reproducing old parts that can no longer be found, but reproducing whole models in this manner is not vintage as I see it. While the topic is obviously interesting to some, it really has no place here.

Ray W.

In a message dated 2/16/2016 1:57:40 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

I've been letting things drift a bit, but yes, per when I started the group, per our original statement DCC is definitely off topic. While I didn't say it I am getting concerned about reproductions too, small parts yes, but when members start talking about reproducing complete cars or locomotives, I do get concerned. The whole idea is to take the vintage pieces and RUN them.

I can't get really excited about things like motor conversions, because this is for people that OPERATE their models as well as admire them on the shelf, and upgrading things like trucks, couplers, etc, is fine, where do you draw the line?

Let's try and get back to what we were originally about, collecting and running the great vintage pieces of our youth.

Don

Don Dellmann
Contact me at: don.dellmann@...
See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

On 2/15/2016 7:49 PM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] wrote:

Bob,

You're far from being alone. I'd have to guess that most of us here prefer the same types of kits, from the same years and even earlier. Actually, DCC is out of place here and could be considered "Off Topic." It's certainly not Vintage. For that matter, can motor conversions are seen as being Off Topic, as I can't think of a single early H0 manufacturer which offered a can motor in their kits. This is all not to say that a modeler may not do as he pleases -- after all, it's his hobby -- but then, he getting far removed from operating as vintage, and that's half the fun of it; to operate just as it was many years past as these models were meant to be built up.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/15/2016 5:42:09 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

The comment came from a hobby shop owner and I think he was talking about wireless control systems.

I like the kits from the 40's, 50's, and 60's now. eBay is my friend!

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: Valerie Smith wooddale@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, February 15, 2016 9:21 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] WSJ article on end of the line for model trains

Bob

I just converted a brass locomotive to DCC and sound for under $90, so I don't know where you're getting your info. The only thing that needs to be watched out for in the conversions is to make sure the engine has a can motor and insulated from the frame.

Kits are still available and the new company, Scale Trains.com is producing them along with ready to run.

Larry Smith

--

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25053	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 2/17/2016
Subject: Re: WSJ article on end of the line for model trains

Mike,

Perhaps we could call these older models having compact DCC boards in them, to enable them to operate in either mode, "Modified Vintage" models, with the emphasis put on Modified.

Ray W.

In a message dated 2/17/2016 12:40:52 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

I agree with both of you.

I would amend it just a bit.

A DCC locomotive is mostly a well running motor that is isolated from the frame, and connected by wiring.

Just changing a vintage unit from having a grounded motor makes it DCC ready.

It's not unseemly to add a plugged ( jumpered ) DCC socket to a vintage model that can at times house a compact DCC board allowing the vintage model to operate on either straight DC or DCC controlled layouts.

That way you are only making a minor change in the vintage models wiring.

The model remains otherwise original.

Mike Bauers
Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 16, 2016, at 5:03 PM, "Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... [vintageHO]" << a href="mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com">vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

I'm not saying don't do it. (Truth be told I have two locomotives {non vintage} equipped with DCC just to run on a friend's layout.

I'm just saying this is not really the forum to talk about it

Don

On 2/16/2016 11:06 AM, Ed Weldon 23.weldon@... [vintageHO] wrote:

Ray - I don't think DCC is off topic here. What's wrong with converting
old model train iron so it runs better? ....

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25054	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 2/17/2016
Subject: Re: Kudos to Don

Charles,

Thanks for the link explaining DCC more thoroughly and the warnings about it for operating DC models with it. Not having DCC operation myself, I was not aware that DCC is actually AC -- even though it fools a DC motor into receiving it as DC (why don't they just call it ACC then?). In a way, this seems almost like Pulse Power that some of us have on our powerpacks, which if I remember correctly, cuts off half of the DC waves and has the remaining DC waves circuit through the DC motor as interrupted waves (pulses) -- again, potentially harmful to the DC motor as it can cause overheating when run too long on this.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/17/2016 1:05:01 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Here is a good primer on running a DC locomotive on a DCC system. It isn’t all hearts and roses.

https://sites.google.com/site/markgurries/home/technical-discussions/dc-loco-on-dcc

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Windows Mail

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: ‎Tuesday‎, ‎February‎ ‎16‎, ‎2016 ‎9‎:‎01‎ ‎PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/16/2016 8:41:29 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

I don't know about the other DCC systems but with DiGiTrax you can run ONE DC locomotive with the DCC locomotives.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2016 3:22 PM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Kudos to Don

John,

The terms "okay" and "vintage" appear to be almost interchangeable in many of these posts. If the only way to operate a vintage piece on a club layout is to install DCC (while still retaining DC capacity), my take on it is that it positively is okay -- but it's no longer strictly a vintage piece simply because DCC is not vintage. Other modelers can the appreciate how a vintage piece appears even though it's not being operated as one.

As for (Mike) Bauers' posts, I enjoy every one of them I see. Mike has certain style all his own. I only have to start reading one of them and I already know who wrote it before scrolling down to see who signed it. BTW, I regret having forgot to sign my last post -- something that I almost never refrain from doing. My apologies to all. I saw my signature was missing only after I clicked on send and before it actually went. Too late to change things then.

No, I missed seeing those $215 Sharks. Hard to figure, when I know I must have seen at least a dozen or more over the past year going for an average of from $25 -- $30 to no more than $40 each. Why wouldn't this buyer try buying one of those when he had the chance? Shows that some modelers don't know the true value of stuff they bid on, or they have deep enough pockets to allow them not to care.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/16/2016 9:40:57 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Don,

I for one agree with you wholeheartedly. I do accept the idea of repowering as that adds to the idea of operating vintage models.

I do tend to vacillate on DCC as some of us would like to be able to operate our precious antiques on club or other layouts where DCC is the operating system. I feel as long as the ability to run on DC is not compromised it is probably okay.

That said I do draw a line at sound, at least anything digital. If someone happens to have one of the old Mantua Syncro-Steam Sound locos, well go for it.

This is my favorite group and one that I am delighted whenever I see new postings, even from Bauers’ (said in jest). You have done an excellent job of controlling content without becoming dictatorial. Keep up the great work.

BTW, did any of you notice the sale on eBay of an AB set of Mantua Sharks for $215.00. This was an auction that I was following but once it got to $60.00, two bidders when nuts. Heck, I couldn’t afford the $60.00 level. A nice set for sure, both powered and in totally bare metal, original boxes and all but the price is ridiculous. For a $50.00 item no less.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2016 12:57 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] WSJ article on end of the line for model trains

I've been letting things drift a bit, but yes, per when I started the group, per our original statement DCC is definitely off topic. While I didn't say it I am getting concerned about reproductions too, small parts yes, but when members start talking about reproducing complete cars or locomotives, I do get concerned. The whole idea is to take the vintage pieces and RUN them.

I can't get really excited about things like motor conversions, because this is for people that OPERATE their models as well as admire them on the shelf, and upgrading things like trucks, couplers, etc, is fine, where do you draw the line?

Let's try and get back to what we were originally about, collecting and running the great vintage pieces of our youth.

Don

Don Dellmann
Contact me at: don.dellmann@...
See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

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Group: vintageHO	Message: 25055	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 2/17/2016
Subject: Re: Kudos to Don

Bob,

That IS a problem, trying to operate older H0 on Code 83 rail -- and especially so if the older models are only semi-old Rivarrosi steam engines with cookie-cutter flanges. Turning the oversized (for Code 83) flanges down on a lathe as Mike suggests would be one solution, but not every modeler owns a lathe. Besides, not every modeler prefers to turn down the drivers of their vintage models, that run fine as manufactured, on the trackage of the day. I would prefer keeping my vintage engines' flanges just as they were. If you have any early Bowser or old Penn Line and you wish to operate them on that club layout, try looking for the newest Bowser drivers having smaller flanges and swap them out. If all you have are the Varney, Roundhouse and Mantua locos you just mentioned, forget about the club layout. As per Charles' link, you could risk burning their motors out there.

Actually, I use Code 100, but with the rails' webs (sides) painted in various shades of brown and rust which presents the effect of the tracks not being nearly as large as they really are. This really takes the attention away from the rails that would otherwise look oversize. The size really isn't very noticeable and it makes a big difference in appearance. No problem running Varney or Penn Line or any other early manufacturer. For the small diorama you have, I don't see any big advantage in adding DCC operation. Analog operation has been working just fine for over 80 years (I'm just estimating H0 as going back to about 1935 or so) and while you need to keep the rails and the drivers clean for best operation, the modeler would still need to do this for DCC. It's not as though you have a complicated layout with many trains running at once and needing individual control. DC operation for a small layout such as yours is perfectly adequate.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/17/2016 1:31:16 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes

Ray,

A couple months ago I asked our local club about running a DC locomotive on their DCC layout. They thought it could be done.

Bu they don't permit it. Plus they told me they use code 83 rails and our old locomotives won't stay on the track.

You can't put DCC in a Varney Dockside, Roundhouse 0-6-0T, Mantua Booster, or Mantua General.

I'm not going back to DCC. I have a 2' by 4' diorama. No need for DCC.

The club I was in Sacramento is now like the one here in Tacoma.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2016 9:01 PM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Kudos to Don

Interesting! I wouldn't know about that, Bob. I don't have (and don't want) any form of DCC. So then, from what you're describing, if a club has DiGiTrax (or possibly even another form of DCC that works similarly), there's no good reason to install DCC in a vintage loco to be able to operate it on such a layout. Thanks for the enlightenment.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/16/2016 8:41:29 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

I don't know about the other DCC systems but with DiGiTrax you can run ONE DC locomotive with the DCC locomotives.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2016 3:22 PM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Kudos to Don

John,

The terms "okay" and "vintage" appear to be almost interchangeable in many of these posts. If the only way to operate a vintage piece on a club layout is to install DCC (while still retaining DC capacity), my take on it is that it positively is okay -- but it's no longer strictly a vintage piece simply because DCC is not vintage. Other modelers can the appreciate how a vintage piece appears even though it's not being operated as one.

As for (Mike) Bauers' posts, I enjoy every one of them I see. Mike has certain style all his own. I only have to start reading one of them and I already know who wrote it before scrolling down to see who signed it. BTW, I regret having forgot to sign my last post -- something that I almost never refrain from doing. My apologies to all. I saw my signature was missing only after I clicked on send and before it actually went. Too late to change things then.

No, I missed seeing those $215 Sharks. Hard to figure, when I know I must have seen at least a dozen or more over the past year going for an average of from $25 -- $30 to no more than $40 each. Why wouldn't this buyer try buying one of those when he had the chance? Shows that some modelers don't know the true value of stuff they bid on, or they have deep enough pockets to allow them not to care.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/16/2016 9:40:57 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Don,

I for one agree with you wholeheartedly. I do accept the idea of repowering as that adds to the idea of operating vintage models.

I do tend to vacillate on DCC as some of us would like to be able to operate our precious antiques on club or other layouts where DCC is the operating system. I feel as long as the ability to run on DC is not compromised it is probably okay.

That said I do draw a line at sound, at least anything digital. If someone happens to have one of the old Mantua Syncro-Steam Sound locos, well go for it.

This is my favorite group and one that I am delighted whenever I see new postings, even from Bauers’ (said in jest). You have done an excellent job of controlling content without becoming dictatorial. Keep up the great work.

BTW, did any of you notice the sale on eBay of an AB set of Mantua Sharks for $215.00. This was an auction that I was following but once it got to $60.00, two bidders when nuts. Heck, I couldn’t afford the $60.00 level. A nice set for sure, both powered and in totally bare metal, original boxes and all but the price is ridiculous. For a $50.00 item no less.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2016 12:57 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] WSJ article on end of the line for model trains

I've been letting things drift a bit, but yes, per when I started the group, per our original statement DCC is definitely off topic. While I didn't say it I am getting concerned about reproductions too, small parts yes, but when members start talking about reproducing complete cars or locomotives, I do get concerned. The whole idea is to take the vintage pieces and RUN them.

I can't get really excited about things like motor conversions, because this is for people that OPERATE their models as well as admire them on the shelf, and upgrading things like trucks, couplers, etc, is fine, where do you draw the line?

Let's try and get back to what we were originally about, collecting and running the great vintage pieces of our youth.

Don

Don Dellmann
Contact me at: don.dellmann@...
See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

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Group: vintageHO	Message: 25056	From: luvprr2003	Date: 2/17/2016
Subject: Re: Kudos to Don

In case there's some confusion from my last message concerning my DC/DCC layout, I want to emphasize that instead of running my DC locos on a DCC powered layout, I merely switch the entire DC layout to DCC and then power it using DCC equipment and use only the DCC loco(s). Quite simple to do so (electronically) if you pay attention to your DC block polarity.

Art Waite

In a message dated 2/17/2016 7:15:53 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Charles,

Thanks for the link explaining DCC more thoroughly and the warnings about it for operating DC models with it. Not having DCC operation myself, I was not aware that DCC is actually AC -- even though it fools a DC motor into receiving it as DC (why don't they just call it ACC then?). In a way, this seems almost like Pulse Power that some of us have on our powerpacks, which if I remember correctly, cuts off half of the DC waves and has the remaining DC waves circuit through the DC motor as interrupted waves (pulses) -- again, potentially harmful to the DC motor as it can cause overheating when run too long on this.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/17/2016 1:05:01 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Here is a good primer on running a DC locomotive on a DCC system. It isn’t all hearts and roses.

https://sites.google.com/site/markgurries/home/technical-discussions/dc-loco-on-dcc

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Windows Mail

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: ‎Tuesday‎, ‎February‎ ‎16‎, ‎2016 ‎9‎:‎01‎ ‎PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Interesting! I wouldn't know about that, Bob. I don't have (and don't want) any form of DCC. So then, from what you're describing, if a club has DiGiTrax (or possibly even another form of DCC that works similarly), there's no good reason to install DCC in a vintage loco to be able to operate it on such a layout. Thanks for the enlightenment.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/16/2016 8:41:29 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

I don't know about the other DCC systems but with DiGiTrax you can run ONE DC locomotive with the DCC locomotives.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2016 3:22 PM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Kudos to Don

John,

The terms "okay" and "vintage" appear to be almost interchangeable in many of these posts. If the only way to operate a vintage piece on a club layout is to install DCC (while still retaining DC capacity), my take on it is that it positively is okay -- but it's no longer strictly a vintage piece simply because DCC is not vintage. Other modelers can the appreciate how a vintage piece appears even though it's not being operated as one.

As for (Mike) Bauers' posts, I enjoy every one of them I see. Mike has certain style all his own. I only have to start reading one of them and I already know who wrote it before scrolling down to see who signed it. BTW, I regret having forgot to sign my last post -- something that I almost never refrain from doing. My apologies to all. I saw my signature was missing only after I clicked on send and before it actually went. Too late to change things then.

No, I missed seeing those $215 Sharks. Hard to figure, when I know I must have seen at least a dozen or more over the past year going for an average of from $25 -- $30 to no more than $40 each. Why wouldn't this buyer try buying one of those when he had the chance? Shows that some modelers don't know the true value of stuff they bid on, or they have deep enough pockets to allow them not to care.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/16/2016 9:40:57 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Don,

I for one agree with you wholeheartedly. I do accept the idea of repowering as that adds to the idea of operating vintage models.

I do tend to vacillate on DCC as some of us would like to be able to operate our precious antiques on club or other layouts where DCC is the operating system. I feel as long as the ability to run on DC is not compromised it is probably okay.

That said I do draw a line at sound, at least anything digital. If someone happens to have one of the old Mantua Syncro-Steam Sound locos, well go for it.

This is my favorite group and one that I am delighted whenever I see new postings, even from Bauers’ (said in jest). You have done an excellent job of controlling content without becoming dictatorial. Keep up the great work.

BTW, did any of you notice the sale on eBay of an AB set of Mantua Sharks for $215.00. This was an auction that I was following but once it got to $60.00, two bidders when nuts. Heck, I couldn’t afford the $60.00 level. A nice set for sure, both powered and in totally bare metal, original boxes and all but the price is ridiculous. For a $50.00 item no less.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2016 12:57 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] WSJ article on end of the line for model trains

I've been letting things drift a bit, but yes, per when I started the group, per our original statement DCC is definitely off topic. While I didn't say it I am getting concerned about reproductions too, small parts yes, but when members start talking about reproducing complete cars or locomotives, I do get concerned. The whole idea is to take the vintage pieces and RUN them.

I can't get really excited about things like motor conversions, because this is for people that OPERATE their models as well as admire them on the shelf, and upgrading things like trucks, couplers, etc, is fine, where do you draw the line?

Let's try and get back to what we were originally about, collecting and running the great vintage pieces of our youth.

Don

Don Dellmann
Contact me at: don.dellmann@...
See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

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Group: vintageHO	Message: 25057	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 2/17/2016
Subject: Re: Kudos to Don

Art,

Perhaps the older H0 locos have problems operating through certain manufacturers' Code 83 turnouts and crossovers (?), since it's obviously not the track itself that they have problems with.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/17/2016 6:56:41 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Art Waite

In a message dated 2/17/2016 2:48:02 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Philistines !!!

It sounds like no member of the club is savvy enough to reduce the flanges on those old models to RP-25.

I suppose they don't have a resident craftsman that owns a hobby lathe, nor know of one outside of the club membership, nor of anyone that uses a local Makers Club that would have access to that groups tools.

I being one that did my first such conversion in 1975, still am surprised how even now, so few RR models have the tool.

Mike Bauers
Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 17, 2016, at 12:33 AM, "Bob Macklin macklinbob@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>
> Bu they don't permit it. Plus they told me they use code 83 rails and our old locomotives won't stay on the track.

------------------------------------
Posted by: Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@...>
------------------------------------

------------------------------------

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Group: vintageHO	Message: 25058	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 2/17/2016
Subject: Re: Kudos to Don

Well it does behave like half wave AC, AC being a wave that goes plus 12 volts and then to negative 12 volts and then back again 60 time a minute if a 60 Hz system as here in the states. DC is a straight line of 12 volts. But if you are only running on your layout with no others, then keep the DC. But if you want to run with others on your layout, get DCC. The total enjoyment of having a few trains running around and being controlled independently is well worth the effort. A simple DPDT switch is all that is needed to switch your layout from DC to DCC, if you do not have reverse loops or other reversing sections. Both sides get the power from the two different supplies and the center tabs go to the track. If you have a reverse section, add another DPDT between the track and the devices to control changing direction.

I am going to suggest the reason that our vintage trains will lose value is because they are not DCCed and may be difficult for the new modeler to do or try to do. As many have pointed out it is becoming a “RTR” world and the enjoyment we derive from building our models is lost on the newer modelers.

The link below that Chuck posted is very good to read and learn from. While I wish I had before I wired up my layout with DCC, mine is working well enough to have 3 to 10 people running trains around it. We had an operation session yesterday, all attendees had a good time and are looking forward to the next session next Tuesday. I have been slow in getting my vintage locos converted, but they will be. I am enjoying the challenge of that too.

Take care,
Chuck Higdon- check out my FEC layout at
https://picasaweb.google.com/102920461774912857361

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2016 7:16 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Kudos to Don

Charles,

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/17/2016 1:05:01 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Here is a good primer on running a DC locomotive on a DCC system. It isn’t all hearts and roses.

https://sites.google.com/site/markgurries/home/technical-discussions/dc-loco-on-dcc

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25059	From: buzzoff86	Date: 2/17/2016
Subject: Mantua Sharks

Now I have a problem. A couple of years ago I gathered up a bunch of die-cast Shark shells to build up. I have both Mantua and (I think) Hobbytown A's and a couple of B's. The plan was to use Hobbytown drives mostly rebuilt from used parts on hand. One big problem is the huge pillar in the center of the Mantua shells: do I remove it or try to find Mantua parts. I really don't like the later Mantua/Tyco motor trucks at all. I guess the question is restored clunkers or non-original Resto-Rods. Or just leave them out behind the back shop.

Fred Holladay

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25060	From: jim_irene.more	Date: 2/17/2016
Subject: Ken Kidder plantion loco

I have a Ken Kidder 0-4-0 Plantation loco that has a short between the wheel and the chassis. I am having a problem removing the wheel to check it out. Can any one assist me I have had it since the Early 60's and I got it second hand, so do not know how old it is.

Jim M

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25061	From: rxensen	Date: 2/17/2016
Subject: DCC

I agree that DCC is not a subject for this forum. There are several groups that deal with that subject.

That said I have put DCC in my vintage 0-6-0 Mantua switcher. easy to do no insulation screws just insulate the brushes.

I'm sure any one with a Mantua locomotive has shimmed the motor up, put in trust washers, but the locomotive always seems to run a bit better one direction vs the other.

Putting in a gear box to make it run better seems to be a good idea. but now it is not original.

Also the bearings seem to need lubrication if it sets a couple of days. I would like to hear how others have solved this so it will preform better.

Ron Christensen

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25062	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 2/17/2016
Subject: Re: Kudos to Don

OK, we all know it can be done, but go to a DCC forum to talk about it.

Thanks

Don

Don Dellmann
Contact me at:
don.dellmann@...
See my toys at:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

On 2/17/2016 12:33 AM, Bob Macklin macklinbob@... [vintageHO] wrote:

Ray,

A couple months ago I asked our local club about running a DC locomotive on their DCC layout. They thought it could be done.

Bu they don't permit it. Plus they told me they use code 83 rails and our old locomotives won't stay on the track.

You can't put DCC in a Varney Dockside, Roundhouse 0-6-0T, Mantua Booster, or Mantua General.

I'm not going back to DCC. I have a 2' by 4' diorama. No need for DCC.

The club I was in Sacramento is now like the one here in Tacoma.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2016 9:01 PM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Kudos to Don

Interesting! I wouldn't know about that, Bob. I don't have (and don't want) any form of DCC. So then, from what you're describing, if a club has DiGiTrax (or possibly even another form of DCC that works similarly), there's no good reason to install DCC in a vintage loco to be able to operate it on such a layout. Thanks for the enlightenment.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/16/2016 8:41:29 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

I don't know about the other DCC systems but with DiGiTrax you can run ONE DC locomotive with the DCC locomotives.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2016 3:22 PM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Kudos to Don

John,

The terms "okay" and "vintage" appear to be almost interchangeable in many of these posts. If the only way to operate a vintage piece on a club layout is to install DCC (while still retaining DC capacity), my take on it is that it positively is okay -- but it's no longer strictly a vintage piece simply because DCC is not vintage. Other modelers can the appreciate how a vintage piece appears even though it's not being operated as one.

As for (Mike) Bauers' posts, I enjoy every one of them I see. Mike has certain style all his own. I only have to start reading one of them and I already know who wrote it before scrolling down to see who signed it. BTW, I regret having forgot to sign my last post -- something that I almost never refrain from doing. My apologies to all. I saw my signature was missing only after I clicked on send and before it actually went. Too late to change things then.

No, I missed seeing those $215 Sharks. Hard to figure, when I know I must have seen at least a dozen or more over the past year going for an average of from $25 -- $30 to no more than $40 each. Why wouldn't this buyer try buying one of those when he had the chance? Shows that some modelers don't know the true value of stuff they bid on, or they have deep enough pockets to allow them not to care.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/16/2016 9:40:57 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Don,

I for one agree with you wholeheartedly. I do accept the idea of repowering as that adds to the idea of operating vintage models.

I do tend to vacillate on DCC as some of us would like to be able to operate our precious antiques on club or other layouts where DCC is the operating system. I feel as long as the ability to run on DC is not compromised it is probably okay.

That said I do draw a line at sound, at least anything digital. If someone happens to have one of the old Mantua Syncro-Steam Sound locos, well go for it.

This is my favorite group and one that I am delighted whenever I see new postings, even from Bauers’ (said in jest). You have done an excellent job of controlling content without becoming dictatorial. Keep up the great work.

BTW, did any of you notice the sale on eBay of an AB set of Mantua Sharks for $215.00. This was an auction that I was following but once it got to $60.00, two bidders when nuts. Heck, I couldn’t afford the $60.00 level. A nice set for sure, both powered and in totally bare metal, original boxes and all but the price is ridiculous. For a $50.00 item no less.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2016 12:57 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] WSJ article on end of the line for model trains

I've been letting things drift a bit, but yes, per when I started the group, per our original statement DCC is definitely off topic. While I didn't say it I am getting concerned about reproductions too, small parts yes, but when members start talking about reproducing complete cars or locomotives, I do get concerned. The whole idea is to take the vintage pieces and RUN them.

I can't get really excited about things like motor conversions, because this is for people that OPERATE their models as well as admire them on the shelf, and upgrading things like trucks, couplers, etc, is fine, where do you draw the line?

Let's try and get back to what we were originally about, collecting and running the great vintage pieces of our youth.

Don

Don Dellmann
Contact me at: don.dellmann@...
See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

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--

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25063	From: luvprr2003	Date: 2/17/2016
Subject: Re: Kudos to Don

Ray,

Could be. Older track often left something to be desired.

Art W

In a message dated 2/17/2016 8:04:40 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Art,

Perhaps the older H0 locos have problems operating through certain manufacturers' Code 83 turnouts and crossovers (?), since it's obviously not the track itself that they have problems with.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/17/2016 6:56:41 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

I'm a late arrival in this discussion, but I wanna just mention that I have a small HO layout that uses code 83 track, and it handles all my Bowser, Penn Line, and other makes of DC locos just fine (except for Challengers and Big Boys on the 22 in curves). And it easily converts to DCC which I have installed--though I only own 1 (one) DCC loco. Not a DCC fan here but did that in order to be able to say that I have a DCC layout and can claim to be a contemporary modeler if necessary! Plus, I wanted to keep up with developments in the hobby to some extent at least.

Art Waite

In a message dated 2/17/2016 2:48:02 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Philistines !!!

It sounds like no member of the club is savvy enough to reduce the flanges on those old models to RP-25.

I suppose they don't have a resident craftsman that owns a hobby lathe, nor know of one outside of the club membership, nor of anyone that uses a local Makers Club that would have access to that groups tools.

I being one that did my first such conversion in 1975, still am surprised how even now, so few RR models have the tool.

Mike Bauers
Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 17, 2016, at 12:33 AM, "Bob Macklin macklinbob@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>
> Bu they don't permit it. Plus they told me they use code 83 rails and our old locomotives won't stay on the track.

------------------------------------
Posted by: Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@...>
------------------------------------

------------------------------------

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Group: vintageHO	Message: 25064	From: anypaddler	Date: 2/17/2016
Subject: Re: WSJ article on end of the line for model trains

Mike Bauers wrote:

< service organizations are shrinking as well due to the sick economy and a multiplying new base of a culture of governmental dependency

--------------------------------

I take strong exception to that. I'm a veteran of military service, but I do not wish to join the American Legion, the VFW, or any of the other veterans' organizations simply because they don't hold any relevancy for me. I'm financially comfortable, I do volunteer work at my church's outreach center, and I'm involved in both the NRHS (50 years) and the NMRA. Linking so-called government dependency to changes in hobby participation is an apples-and-oranges kind of thing; it's irrelevant.

Ralph V. Balfoort
Retired D&H and VRS

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25065	From: anypaddler	Date: 2/17/2016
Subject: Re: WSJ article on end of the line for model trains

Ray Wetzel wrote:

< Herkimer Tool & Model Works was one of the early gas engine manufacturers for model planes, the same Herkimer that produced a line of metal H0 passenger cars.

----------------------------------------

And they're still at it: http://www.okengines.com/news.shtml I saw them at the Amherst Railway Society show in West Springfield, MA, a few years ago and the cars are gorgeous; I don't see them on the list of vendors at this year's show, though.

Ralph V. Balfoort
Retired D&H and VRS

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25066	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 2/17/2016
Subject: Re: Mantua Sharks

Attachments :

Hi Fred,

This is a tough one. If you have all of the Hobbytown chassis you need and you want all of the sharks to have Hobbytown chassis, you will need to remove the weight pillar. I have several of these sharks as well and I found that with a little tender loving care, the original Mantua motors run very nicely, but only 4 wheel drive, not 8 wheel as the Hobbytowns do. If you really want to make the original Mantua motors run better, replace the magnet with a neodymium one and the low speed performance will increase and the current draw will decrease. I also checked on the current draw of the original Mantua motors and find them perfectly acceptable for DCC for those who are interested in running their vintage on modern layouts. Of course, I would not spend the extra money to put sound in Mantuas or Hobbytowns; they already have built in sound. VBG! &#X1f609

Let us know what you decide.

Regards, Vic B.

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of fvh2@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2016 7:58 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vintageHO] Mantua Sharks

Fred Holladay

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25067	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 2/17/2016
Subject: Re: Kudos to Don

Hi Bob and Ray,

Hmmmm, I use code 83 track, mostly handlaid turnouts, but I have a couple of Atlas and Walthers (Shinohahara). After I have tested my turnouts and track with a representative group of cars and trucks, I use a set of AHM trucks with pizza cutter wheelsets to see what would happen. No problems whatsoever. No, I do not use pizza cutters or plastic wheelsets on operating equipment, but it doesn't hurt to stress test trackage. Every single time I have thought I had a problem with a turnout, close inspection revealed a problem with a wheelset or truck. Usually out of gauge, but sometimes out of round. I still spend more time looking at the turnout before turning to examine the truck and wheel0set. Human nature, I suppose? Generally, my vintage trucks and wheelsets are ok, but if they aren't right, I replace them with no misgivings. I like to operate my vintage without having to deal with derailments.

Regards, Vic B.

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2016 7:54 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Kudos to Don

Bob,

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/17/2016 1:31:16 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes

Ray,

A couple months ago I asked our local club about running a DC locomotive on their DCC layout. They thought it could be done.

Bu they don't permit it. Plus they told me they use code 83 rails and our old locomotives won't stay on the track.

You can't put DCC in a Varney Dockside, Roundhouse 0-6-0T, Mantua Booster, or Mantua General.

I'm not going back to DCC. I have a 2' by 4' diorama. No need for DCC.

The club I was in Sacramento is now like the one here in Tacoma.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2016 9:01 PM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Kudos to Don

Interesting! I wouldn't know about that, Bob. I don't have (and don't want) any form of DCC. So then, from what you're describing, if a club has DiGiTrax (or possibly even another form of DCC that works similarly), there's no good reason to install DCC in a vintage loco to be able to operate it on such a layout. Thanks for the enlightenment.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/16/2016 8:41:29 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

I don't know about the other DCC systems but with DiGiTrax you can run ONE DC locomotive with the DCC locomotives.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2016 3:22 PM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Kudos to Don

John,

The terms "okay" and "vintage" appear to be almost interchangeable in many of these posts. If the only way to operate a vintage piece on a club layout is to install DCC (while still retaining DC capacity), my take on it is that it positively is okay -- but it's no longer strictly a vintage piece simply because DCC is not vintage. Other modelers can the appreciate how a vintage piece appears even though it's not being operated as one.

As for (Mike) Bauers' posts, I enjoy every one of them I see. Mike has certain style all his own. I only have to start reading one of them and I already know who wrote it before scrolling down to see who signed it. BTW, I regret having forgot to sign my last post -- something that I almost never refrain from doing. My apologies to all. I saw my signature was missing only after I clicked on send and before it actually went. Too late to change things then.

No, I missed seeing those $215 Sharks. Hard to figure, when I know I must have seen at least a dozen or more over the past year going for an average of from $25 -- $30 to no more than $40 each. Why wouldn't this buyer try buying one of those when he had the chance? Shows that some modelers don't know the true value of stuff they bid on, or they have deep enough pockets to allow them not to care.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/16/2016 9:40:57 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Don,

I for one agree with you wholeheartedly. I do accept the idea of repowering as that adds to the idea of operating vintage models.

I do tend to vacillate on DCC as some of us would like to be able to operate our precious antiques on club or other layouts where DCC is the operating system. I feel as long as the ability to run on DC is not compromised it is probably okay.

That said I do draw a line at sound, at least anything digital. If someone happens to have one of the old Mantua Syncro-Steam Sound locos, well go for it.

This is my favorite group and one that I am delighted whenever I see new postings, even from Bauers’ (said in jest). You have done an excellent job of controlling content without becoming dictatorial. Keep up the great work.

BTW, did any of you notice the sale on eBay of an AB set of Mantua Sharks for $215.00. This was an auction that I was following but once it got to $60.00, two bidders when nuts. Heck, I couldn’t afford the $60.00 level. A nice set for sure, both powered and in totally bare metal, original boxes and all but the price is ridiculous. For a $50.00 item no less.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2016 12:57 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] WSJ article on end of the line for model trains

I've been letting things drift a bit, but yes, per when I started the group, per our original statement DCC is definitely off topic. While I didn't say it I am getting concerned about reproductions too, small parts yes, but when members start talking about reproducing complete cars or locomotives, I do get concerned. The whole idea is to take the vintage pieces and RUN them.

I can't get really excited about things like motor conversions, because this is for people that OPERATE their models as well as admire them on the shelf, and upgrading things like trucks, couplers, etc, is fine, where do you draw the line?

Let's try and get back to what we were originally about, collecting and running the great vintage pieces of our youth.

Don

Don Dellmann
Contact me at: don.dellmann@...
See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

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Group: vintageHO	Message: 25068	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 2/17/2016
Subject: Re: Kudos to Don

Hi Bob,

I agree DCC would not have much value on a 2 ft by 4 ft diorama. However, way back in the 1970's I think, Earl Smallshaw had a friend install Central Valley valve gear, a can motor with a flywheel and PFM sound in a Varney Docksider. WOW!!! If he could do all of that way back then, certainly a TCS WOW or Econami would fit in Little Joe, especially if you change out that HUGE Varney motor with a decent can motor. If one wanted to of course.

Regards, Vic B.

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Bob Macklin macklinbob@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2016 1:33 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Kudos to Don

Ray,

A couple months ago I asked our local club about running a DC locomotive on their DCC layout. They thought it could be done.

Bu they don't permit it. Plus they told me they use code 83 rails and our old locomotives won't stay on the track.

You can't put DCC in a Varney Dockside, Roundhouse 0-6-0T, Mantua Booster, or Mantua General.

I'm not going back to DCC. I have a 2' by 4' diorama. No need for DCC.

The club I was in Sacramento is now like the one here in Tacoma.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2016 9:01 PM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Kudos to Don

Interesting! I wouldn't know about that, Bob. I don't have (and don't want) any form of DCC. So then, from what you're describing, if a club has DiGiTrax (or possibly even another form of DCC that works similarly), there's no good reason to install DCC in a vintage loco to be able to operate it on such a layout. Thanks for the enlightenment.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/16/2016 8:41:29 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

I don't know about the other DCC systems but with DiGiTrax you can run ONE DC locomotive with the DCC locomotives.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2016 3:22 PM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Kudos to Don

John,

The terms "okay" and "vintage" appear to be almost interchangeable in many of these posts. If the only way to operate a vintage piece on a club layout is to install DCC (while still retaining DC capacity), my take on it is that it positively is okay -- but it's no longer strictly a vintage piece simply because DCC is not vintage. Other modelers can the appreciate how a vintage piece appears even though it's not being operated as one.

As for (Mike) Bauers' posts, I enjoy every one of them I see. Mike has certain style all his own. I only have to start reading one of them and I already know who wrote it before scrolling down to see who signed it. BTW, I regret having forgot to sign my last post -- something that I almost never refrain from doing. My apologies to all. I saw my signature was missing only after I clicked on send and before it actually went. Too late to change things then.

No, I missed seeing those $215 Sharks. Hard to figure, when I know I must have seen at least a dozen or more over the past year going for an average of from $25 -- $30 to no more than $40 each. Why wouldn't this buyer try buying one of those when he had the chance? Shows that some modelers don't know the true value of stuff they bid on, or they have deep enough pockets to allow them not to care.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/16/2016 9:40:57 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Don,

I for one agree with you wholeheartedly. I do accept the idea of repowering as that adds to the idea of operating vintage models.

I do tend to vacillate on DCC as some of us would like to be able to operate our precious antiques on club or other layouts where DCC is the operating system. I feel as long as the ability to run on DC is not compromised it is probably okay.

That said I do draw a line at sound, at least anything digital. If someone happens to have one of the old Mantua Syncro-Steam Sound locos, well go for it.

This is my favorite group and one that I am delighted whenever I see new postings, even from Bauers’ (said in jest). You have done an excellent job of controlling content without becoming dictatorial. Keep up the great work.

BTW, did any of you notice the sale on eBay of an AB set of Mantua Sharks for $215.00. This was an auction that I was following but once it got to $60.00, two bidders when nuts. Heck, I couldn’t afford the $60.00 level. A nice set for sure, both powered and in totally bare metal, original boxes and all but the price is ridiculous. For a $50.00 item no less.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2016 12:57 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] WSJ article on end of the line for model trains

I've been letting things drift a bit, but yes, per when I started the group, per our original statement DCC is definitely off topic. While I didn't say it I am getting concerned about reproductions too, small parts yes, but when members start talking about reproducing complete cars or locomotives, I do get concerned. The whole idea is to take the vintage pieces and RUN them.

I can't get really excited about things like motor conversions, because this is for people that OPERATE their models as well as admire them on the shelf, and upgrading things like trucks, couplers, etc, is fine, where do you draw the line?

Let's try and get back to what we were originally about, collecting and running the great vintage pieces of our youth.

Don

Don Dellmann
Contact me at: don.dellmann@...
See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

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Group: vintageHO	Message: 25069	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 2/17/2016
Subject: Re: Kudos to Don

I think some discussion about how to hook it up without changing the vintage model would apply to here.

Actually running on DCC including the adjustment of the DCC settings are to be outside of a vintage model list as this is.

If I must define it....

How to wire it and isolate the motor to still run reliably on straight DC is a vintage HO matter on the order of an issue of how to service or restore the vintage motors for good operation.

I'm sure we all can agree that DC operation issues, only, belong in the Vintage HO list,

While leaving DCC issues other than how to adjust your vintage model to still be usable on a modern DCC club operation.... Those must be handled outside of this list for any specific DCC issues.

Mike Bauers

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 17, 2016, at 7:31 AM, "Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

OK, we all know it can be done, but go to a DCC forum to talk about it.

Thanks

Don
Don Dellmann
Contact me at:
don.dellmann@...
See my toys at:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/
On 2/17/2016 12:33 AM, Bob Macklin macklinbob@... [vintageHO] wrote:
Ray,

A couple months ago I asked our local club about running a DC locomotive on their DCC layout. They thought it could be done.

Bu they don't permit it. Plus they told me they use code 83 rails and our old locomotives won't stay on the track.

You can't put DCC in a Varney Dockside, Roundhouse 0-6-0T, Mantua Booster, or Mantua General.

I'm not going back to DCC. I have a 2' by 4' diorama. No need for DCC.

The club I was in Sacramento is now like the one here in Tacoma.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2016 9:01 PM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Kudos to Don

Interesting! I wouldn't know about that, Bob. I don't have (and don't want) any form of DCC. So then, from what you're describing, if a club has DiGiTrax (or possibly even another form of DCC that works similarly), there's no good reason to install DCC in a vintage loco to be able to operate it on such a layout. Thanks for the enlightenment.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/16/2016 8:41:29 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

I don't know about the other DCC systems but with DiGiTrax you can run ONE DC locomotive with the DCC locomotives.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2016 3:22 PM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Kudos to Don

John,

The terms "okay" and "vintage" appear to be almost interchangeable in many of these posts. If the only way to operate a vintage piece on a club layout is to install DCC (while still retaining DC capacity), my take on it is that it positively is okay -- but it's no longer strictly a vintage piece simply because DCC is not vintage. Other modelers can the appreciate how a vintage piece appears even though it's not being operated as one.

As for (Mike) Bauers' posts, I enjoy every one of them I see. Mike has certain style all his own. I only have to start reading one of them and I already know who wrote it before scrolling down to see who signed it. BTW, I regret having forgot to sign my last post -- something that I almost never refrain from doing. My apologies to all. I saw my signature was missing only after I clicked on send and before it actually went. Too late to change things then.

No, I missed seeing those $215 Sharks. Hard to figure, when I know I must have seen at least a dozen or more over the past year going for an average of from $25 -- $30 to no more than $40 each. Why wouldn't this buyer try buying one of those when he had the chance? Shows that some modelers don't know the true value of stuff they bid on, or they have deep enough pockets to allow them not to care.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/16/2016 9:40:57 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Don,

I for one agree with you wholeheartedly. I do accept the idea of repowering as that adds to the idea of operating vintage models.

I do tend to vacillate on DCC as some of us would like to be able to operate our precious antiques on club or other layouts where DCC is the operating system. I feel as long as the ability to run on DC is not compromised it is probably okay.

That said I do draw a line at sound, at least anything digital. If someone happens to have one of the old Mantua Syncro-Steam Sound locos, well go for it.

This is my favorite group and one that I am delighted whenever I see new postings, even from Bauers’ (said in jest). You have done an excellent job of controlling content without becoming dictatorial. Keep up the great work.

BTW, did any of you notice the sale on eBay of an AB set of Mantua Sharks for $215.00. This was an auction that I was following but once it got to $60.00, two bidders when nuts. Heck, I couldn’t afford the $60.00 level. A nice set for sure, both powered and in totally bare metal, original boxes and all but the price is ridiculous. For a $50.00 item no less.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2016 12:57 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] WSJ article on end of the line for model trains

I've been letting things drift a bit, but yes, per when I started the group, per our original statement DCC is definitely off topic. While I didn't say it I am getting concerned about reproductions too, small parts yes, but when members start talking about reproducing complete cars or locomotives, I do get concerned. The whole idea is to take the vintage pieces and RUN them.

I can't get really excited about things like motor conversions, because this is for people that OPERATE their models as well as admire them on the shelf, and upgrading things like trucks, couplers, etc, is fine, where do you draw the line?

Let's try and get back to what we were originally about, collecting and running the great vintage pieces of our youth.

Don

Don Dellmann
Contact me at: don.dellmann@...
See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25070	From: Bob Macklin	Date: 2/17/2016
Subject: Re: WSJ article on end of the line for model trains

Where can I buy Varney, Mantua, Silver Streak, or Ulrich "REPRO" kits?

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2016 3:56 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] WSJ article on end of the line for model trains

If the object of this straightforward explanation is to show that such DIY models are still "vintage," it should be noted that while the construction of these models may be straight out of the 1930's, they are actually being made today in 2016. It's the year that models are produced as being part of why they're vintage and not the year they were reproduced by any other method or materials -- even if these methods and material were exactly the same as the original models.

There are duplicates of antique automobiles being produced today. They are not considered antiques by any stretch of the imagination, even though they mirror the same image, but they're referred to as "Reproductions." Again, absolutely nothing wrong with reproducing model trains, since the Real McCoy can't always be obtained -- and at least the modeler can enjoy what the original had looked like -- but it can't be considered a vintage model. It's great that there are still Paul Moore blueprints around, to be able to construct copies of his original models and yes, "Vintage Tributes" might be one term to describe them.

Just to briefly get back to references of antique automobiles that Larry and I were discussing, while a 20 or 25 year old car may be considered "antique" in Illinois and New Jersey respectively, this would date them only to 1996 and 1991 -- hardly looking at all like the antique cars we're all familiar with as cars of this description, yet old enough to be considered as such by these states. As I've always been accustomed to, Antique cars have always been those that were manufactured pre-WW II. All other older cars not going back quite that far, but still considered by most states to qualify for obtaining antique license (registration) plates/tags are considered as Classic Cars by most owners of them.

While this group is referring to these older H0 models as being vintage, we're still not describing them as antique -- even though many of them are pre-War (and are obviously antiques as we would consider the term). For furniture to be an antique, it's required that it must be at least 100 years old and 50 years old qualifies it as vintage. So by this, it can be seen that auto or furniture designations have no close correlation with model trains although the time frames are similar -- at least for vintage H0 -- where furniture going back to 1966 and earlier is vintage. By that standard though, none of us have any antique H0 unless we can find models produced in 1916 or before < g >.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/17/2016 12:40:39 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

A lot of them are 1920's and earlier cars. That's another sort of vintage.

Other than the tooling, the construction is straight out of 1930's MR construction articles, and the bulk of the material to be used is recent production of the same materials used then.

It's really just a DIY that mirrors the same period construction that was done with pre-printed scale RR cars as you can find in the pages of MR, where they printed some pages of full color billboard reefers. Instead of using one page to build the model, you do the cutting on a number of identical pages to build up 3d relief in one model made from a few copies of the same side.

In many cases the original vintage model had its chassis built of cut art-card or thin wood. Again you make use of the same material as the 1930's article. But cut with a different tool.

Rivets are done either in Varney ph otoReal printed fashion or die impressed. Again as it was done then.

While the projects are not stock remnants of early kit production; they are designed to be built as the early kits were with very similar materials.

Just precut with something other than the older die cutting tooling.

Perhaps Vintage Tributes would be a good defining term for the things?

Mike Bauers
Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 16, 2016, at 4:55 PM, "eriepacific@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Mike,

I can appreciate the fact that Paul Moore models and parts are virtually impossible to come by. Due to their continued popularity today -- when they can be found -- the remaining availability of any of these products are quite scarce and practically non-existent. I can understand wanting to reproduce them as 3-D products especially as this would very closely follow Paul's blueprints. There's nothing wrong with that, but if they were to be produced in this manner, they could hardly be called "vintage," even if Paul himself produced them today.

In a message dated 2/16/2016 7:53:59 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

I need to disagree to a degree.

I've long sought out Paul Moore traction, doodlebug, and passenger car kits.

Some years ago I got to see the remaining stock of his parts, un gathered kits, and production drawing masters. It was in a hobby shop after it was de-acquired from a private collector. It was in limbo as the new owner was simply holding on to the material with no intension of doing anything with it. I suppose it's all in the hands of some other collector by now.

I've got some of the kits I wanted. But they are very hard to come by and many that pop up are badly damaged by the building decades ago.

Over the years I've gathered several of Paul's well drawn catalog sheets and once found many of his blueprints that I was able to obtain.

Even one of the more specific kits I originally wanted back in 1968, found just a couple of &n bsp;years ago. About three months ago I was lucky enough to get one of his TMER&L planbooks in a small group of other plan books, along with some of the original Hi-F Athearn F7 drives used by some series of Paul's kits and plans.

Per his catalogs and drawings, he had some few hundred designs in limited production kits and plan books.the kits and parts are very rare these days from a one man venture that stopped operation about 1970.

So I'm in the situation that I either build in the fashion of Paul's work from his meant to be built from plan books or I'm not going to have his stuff to use.

Now that the largest gathering of his remaining stock is hidden away in the hands of a private collection, or disposed of as old trash; I'm left with options of making or not having.

I will not go the direction of not having after all these years of locating a few relics of his life's work.

His work included several plan books that were intended to be used to build according to those plans. His line drawing catalog sheets are reductions of similar plans. His plan books are duplicates of his blueprints he use to make the major parts of his kits and car sides. He would have those printed on the working stock material and then cut out those printed drawings as his kit parts.

Unlike other vintage model RR cast production, he had hand cut body panels as the bulk of his kits and offered parts.

Thus I have been incrementally creeping towards constructing those designs I've been wanting from what source material I've been able to find. P

Mike Bauers
Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 16, 2016, at 5:55 AM, "Dave Audley audleydave@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

When I was working for Bob H. at Athabasca Scale Models, we often talked about how

many ASM kits were proabably stacked on shelves waiting to be built! We didn't very

often see finished models, and we offered free shirts & T-shirts for photos of finished kits!

Dave Audley

On Tuesday, February 16, 2016 3:56 AM, "eriepacific@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

For that matter, what does 3-D printing of models and laser cutting of their parts have anything to do with vintage HO, except perhaps to copy the older models in replacing them with new? Might be a way of reproducing old parts that can no longer be found, but reproducing whole models in this manner is not vintage as I see it. While the topic is obviously interesting to some, it really has no place here.

Ray W.

In a message dated 2/16/2016 1:57:40 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

I've been letting things drift a bit, but yes, per when I started the group, per our original statement DCC is definitely off topic. While I didn't say it I am getting concerned about reproductions too, small parts yes, but when members start talking about reproducing complete cars or locomotives, I do get concerned. The whole idea is to take the vintage pieces and RUN them.

I can't get really excited about things like motor conversions, because this is for people that OPERATE their models as well as admire them on the shelf, and upgrading things like trucks, couplers, etc, is fine, where do you draw the line?

Let's try and get back to what we were originally about, collecting and running the great vintage pieces of our youth.

Don

Don Dellmann
Contact me at: don.dellmann@...
See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

On 2/15/2016 7:49 PM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] wrote:

Bob,

You're far from being alone. I'd have to guess that most of us here prefer the same types of kits, from the same years and even earlier. Actually, DCC is out of place here and could be considered "Off Topic." It's certainly not Vintage. For that matter, can motor conversions are seen as being Off Topic, as I can't think of a single early H0 manufacturer which offered a can motor in their kits. This is all not to say that a modeler may not do as he pleases -- after all, it's his hobby -- but then, he getting far removed from operating as vintage, and that's half the fun of it; to operate just as it was many years past as these models were meant to be built up.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/15/2016 5:42:09 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

The comment came from a hobby shop owner and I think he was talking about wireless control systems.

I like the kits from the 40's, 50's, and 60's now. eBay is my friend!

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: Valerie Smith wooddale@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, February 15, 2016 9:21 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] WSJ article on end of the line for model trains

Bob

I just converted a brass locomotive to DCC and sound for under $90, so I don't know where you're getting your info. The only thing that needs to be watched out for in the conversions is to make sure the engine has a can motor and insulated from the frame.

Kits are still available and the new company, Scale Trains.com is producing them along with ready to run.

Larry Smith

--

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25071	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 2/17/2016
Subject: Re: Kudos to Don

So Ray, here is my 2 cents on this, actually having done it.

Yeah, it works, but really not very well. The throttle when at zero does cut out the power to the loco sort of, the signal is still there, but "theoretically" won't hurt. The low speed performance, while there, is really hard on the motor and it buzzes, until you get to a higher speed. This is typical of pulse systems. The older (vintage?) pulse systems (the better ones, that is) automatically started at regular DC then switched to pulse at an appropriate time so as not to hurt the motor. Some pulse systems were terrible and the motors made a buzzing sound at low speeds. Some of these "vintage" systems even had a switch to switch from DC to pulse. So my 2 cents is only run DC locos on DCC systems to check out a loco for very short periods and not to actually run it.

Regards, Vic B.

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2016 12:01 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Kudos to Don

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/16/2016 8:41:29 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

I don't know about the other DCC systems but with DiGiTrax you can run ONE DC locomotive with the DCC locomotives.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2016 3:22 PM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Kudos to Don

John,

The terms "okay" and "vintage" appear to be almost interchangeable in many of these posts. If the only way to operate a vintage piece on a club layout is to install DCC (while still retaining DC capacity), my take on it is that it positively is okay -- but it's no longer strictly a vintage piece simply because DCC is not vintage. Other modelers can the appreciate how a vintage piece appears even though it's not being operated as one.

As for (Mike) Bauers' posts, I enjoy every one of them I see. Mike has certain style all his own. I only have to start reading one of them and I already know who wrote it before scrolling down to see who signed it. BTW, I regret having forgot to sign my last post -- something that I almost never refrain from doing. My apologies to all. I saw my signature was missing only after I clicked on send and before it actually went. Too late to change things then.

No, I missed seeing those $215 Sharks. Hard to figure, when I know I must have seen at least a dozen or more over the past year going for an average of from $25 -- $30 to no more than $40 each. Why wouldn't this buyer try buying one of those when he had the chance? Shows that some modelers don't know the true value of stuff they bid on, or they have deep enough pockets to allow them not to care.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/16/2016 9:40:57 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Don,

I for one agree with you wholeheartedly. I do accept the idea of repowering as that adds to the idea of operating vintage models.

I do tend to vacillate on DCC as some of us would like to be able to operate our precious antiques on club or other layouts where DCC is the operating system. I feel as long as the ability to run on DC is not compromised it is probably okay.

That said I do draw a line at sound, at least anything digital. If someone happens to have one of the old Mantua Syncro-Steam Sound locos, well go for it.

This is my favorite group and one that I am delighted whenever I see new postings, even from Bauers’ (said in jest). You have done an excellent job of controlling content without becoming dictatorial. Keep up the great work.

BTW, did any of you notice the sale on eBay of an AB set of Mantua Sharks for $215.00. This was an auction that I was following but once it got to $60.00, two bidders when nuts. Heck, I couldn’t afford the $60.00 level. A nice set for sure, both powered and in totally bare metal, original boxes and all but the price is ridiculous. For a $50.00 item no less.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2016 12:57 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] WSJ article on end of the line for model trains

I've been letting things drift a bit, but yes, per when I started the group, per our original statement DCC is definitely off topic. While I didn't say it I am getting concerned about reproductions too, small parts yes, but when members start talking about reproducing complete cars or locomotives, I do get concerned. The whole idea is to take the vintage pieces and RUN them.

I can't get really excited about things like motor conversions, because this is for people that OPERATE their models as well as admire them on the shelf, and upgrading things like trucks, couplers, etc, is fine, where do you draw the line?

Let's try and get back to what we were originally about, collecting and running the great vintage pieces of our youth.

Don

Don Dellmann
Contact me at: don.dellmann@...
See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

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Group: vintageHO	Message: 25072	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 2/17/2016
Subject: Re: DCC

It may just be that you need to use a different lube on those bearings,

Mike Bauers
Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 17, 2016, at 7:13 AM, "rxensen@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>
> Also the bearings seem to need lubrication if it sets a couple of days. I would like to hear how others have solved this so it will preform better.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25073	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 2/17/2016
Subject: Re: Ken Kidder plantion loco

Are you sure the previous owner didn't accidentally flip the axle during assembly ?

Mike Bauers

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 17, 2016, at 1:51 AM, "jim_irene.more@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

I have a Ken Kidder 0-4-0 Plantation loco that has a short between the wheel and the chassis. I am having a problem removing the wheel to check it out. Can any one assist me I have had it since the Early 60's and I got it second hand, so do not know how old it is.
Jim M

__._,_.__

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25074	From: Bob Macklin	Date: 2/17/2016
Subject: Re: Kudos to Don

The DC mode of DCC is actually PULSE power. They change the duty cycle (pulse width) to control the motor. If you put a DC voltmeter on the track and vary the speed and direction you will see the voltage and polarity change.

It works well with CAN motors but may cause heating in open frame motors.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2016 4:15 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Kudos to Don

Charles,

Thanks for the link explaining DCC more thoroughly and the warnings about it for operating DC models with it. Not having DCC operation myself, I was not aware that DCC is actually AC -- even though it fools a DC motor into receiving it as DC (why don't they just call it ACC then?). In a way, this seems almost like Pulse Power that some of us have on our powerpacks, which if I remember correctly, cuts off half of the DC waves and has the remaining DC waves circuit through the DC motor as interrupted waves (pulses) -- again, potentially harmful to the DC motor as it can cause overheating when run too long on this.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/17/2016 1:05:01 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Here is a good primer on running a DC locomotive on a DCC system. It isn’t all hearts and roses.

https://sites.google.com/site/markgurries/home/technical-discussions/dc-loco-on-dcc

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Windows Mail

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: ‎Tuesday‎, ‎February‎ ‎16‎, ‎2016 ‎9‎:‎01‎ ‎PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Interesting! I wouldn't know about that, Bob. I don't have (and don't want) any form of DCC. So then, from what you're describing, if a club has DiGiTrax (or possibly even another form of DCC that works similarly), there's no good reason to install DCC in a vintage loco to be able to operate it on such a layout. Thanks for the enlightenment.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/16/2016 8:41:29 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

I don't know about the other DCC systems but with DiGiTrax you can run ONE DC locomotive with the DCC locomotives.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2016 3:22 PM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Kudos to Don

John,

The terms "okay" and "vintage" appear to be almost interchangeable in many of these posts. If the only way to operate a vintage piece on a club layout is to install DCC (while still retaining DC capacity), my take on it is that it positively is okay -- but it's no longer strictly a vintage piece simply because DCC is not vintage. Other modelers can the appreciate how a vintage piece appears even though it's not being operated as one.

As for (Mike) Bauers' posts, I enjoy every one of them I see. Mike has certain style all his own. I only have to start reading one of them and I already know who wrote it before scrolling down to see who signed it. BTW, I regret having forgot to sign my last post -- something that I almost never refrain from doing. My apologies to all. I saw my signature was missing only after I clicked on send and before it actually went. Too late to change things then.

No, I missed seeing those $215 Sharks. Hard to figure, when I know I must have seen at least a dozen or more over the past year going for an average of from $25 -- $30 to no more than $40 each. Why wouldn't this buyer try buying one of those when he had the chance? Shows that some modelers don't know the true value of stuff they bid on, or they have deep enough pockets to allow them not to care.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/16/2016 9:40:57 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Don,

I for one agree with you wholeheartedly. I do accept the idea of repowering as that adds to the idea of operating vintage models.

I do tend to vacillate on DCC as some of us would like to be able to operate our precious antiques on club or other layouts where DCC is the operating system. I feel as long as the ability to run on DC is not compromised it is probably okay.

That said I do draw a line at sound, at least anything digital. If someone happens to have one of the old Mantua Syncro-Steam Sound locos, well go for it.

This is my favorite group and one that I am delighted whenever I see new postings, even from Bauers’ (said in jest). You have done an excellent job of controlling content without becoming dictatorial. Keep up the great work.

BTW, did any of you notice the sale on eBay of an AB set of Mantua Sharks for $215.00. This was an auction that I was following but once it got to $60.00, two bidders when nuts. Heck, I couldn’t afford the $60.00 level. A nice set for sure, both powered and in totally bare metal, original boxes and all but the price is ridiculous. For a $50.00 item no less.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2016 12:57 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] WSJ article on end of the line for model trains

I've been letting things drift a bit, but yes, per when I started the group, per our original statement DCC is definitely off topic. While I didn't say it I am getting concerned about reproductions too, small parts yes, but when members start talking about reproducing complete cars or locomotives, I do get concerned. The whole idea is to take the vintage pieces and RUN them.

I can't get really excited about things like motor conversions, because this is for people that OPERATE their models as well as admire them on the shelf, and upgrading things like trucks, couplers, etc, is fine, where do you draw the line?

Let's try and get back to what we were originally about, collecting and running the great vintage pieces of our youth.

Don

Don Dellmann
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Group: vintageHO	Message: 25075	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 2/17/2016
Subject: Re: Mantua Sharks

I'm removing my pillars to put modern drives in.

Mike Bauers

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 16, 2016, at 6:58 PM, "fvh2@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Now I have a problem. A couple of years ago I gathered up a bunch of die-cast Shark shells to build up. I have both Mantua and (I think) Hobbytown A's and a couple of B's. The plan was to use Hobbytown drives mostly rebuilt from used parts on hand. One big problem is the huge pillar in the center of the Mantua shells: do I remove it or try to find Mantua parts. I really don't like the later Mantua/Tyco motor trucks at all. I guess the question is restored clunkers or non-original Resto-Rods. Or just leave them out behind the back shop.

Fred Holladay

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25076	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 2/17/2016
Subject: Re: WSJ article on end of the line for model trains

Not sure about Varney or Mantua. Ulrich seems to be totally focused on DCC stuff, not car kits. However, Silver Streak kits are alive and well at Ye Olde Huff N Puff.

http://www.yeoldehuffnpuff.com/index.html

They also sell Silver Streak parts.

Trout Creek Engineering sells wood car kits, the old Taurus line.

http://www.troutcreekeng.com/index.html

Regards, Vic B.

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Bob Macklin macklinbob@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2016 10:32 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] WSJ article on end of the line for model trains

Where can I buy Varney, Mantua, Silver Streak, or Ulrich "REPRO" kits?

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2016 3:56 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] WSJ article on end of the line for model trains

If the object of this straightforward explanation is to show that such DIY models are still "vintage," it should be noted that while the construction of these models may be straight out of the 1930's, they are actually being made today in 2016. It's the year that models are produced as being part of why they're vintage and not the year they were reproduced by any other method or materials -- even if these methods and material were exactly the same as the original models.

There are duplicates of antique automobiles being produced today. They are not considered antiques by any stretch of the imagination, even though they mirror the same image, but they're referred to as "Reproductions." Again, absolutely nothing wrong with reproducing model trains, since the Real McCoy can't always be obtained -- and at least the modeler can enjoy what the original had looked like -- but it can't be considered a vintage model. It's great that there are still Paul Moore blueprints around, to be able to construct copies of his original models and yes, "Vintage Tributes" might be one term to describe them.

Just to briefly get back to references of antique automobiles that Larry and I were discussing, while a 20 or 25 year old car may be considered "antique" in Illinois and New Jersey respectively, this would date them only to 1996 and 1991 -- hardly looking at all like the antique cars we're all familiar with as cars of this description, yet old enough to be considered as such by these states. As I've always been accustomed to, Antique cars have always been those that were manufactured pre-WW II. All other older cars not going back quite that far, but still considered by most states to qualify for obtaining antique license (registration) plates/tags are considered as Classic Cars by most owners of them.

While this group is referring to these older H0 models as being vintage, we're still not describing them as antique -- even though many of them are pre-War (and are obviously antiques as we would consider the term). For furniture to be an antique, it's required that it must be at least 100 years old and 50 years old qualifies it as vintage. So by this, it can be seen that auto or furniture designations have no close correlation with model trains although the time frames are similar -- at least for vintage H0 -- where furniture going back to 1966 and earlier is vintage. By that standard though, none of us have any antique H0 unless we can find models produced in 1916 or before < g >.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/17/2016 12:40:39 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

A lot of them are 1920's and earlier cars. That's another sort of vintage.

Other than the tooling, the construction is straight out of 1930's MR construction articles, and the bulk of the material to be used is recent production of the same materials used then.

It's really just a DIY that mirrors the same period construction that was done with pre-printed scale RR cars as you can find in the pages of MR, where they printed some pages of full color billboard reefers. Instead of using one page to build the model, you do the cutting on a number of identical pages to build up 3d relief in one model made from a few copies of the same side.

In many cases the original vintage model had its chassis built of cut art-card or thin wood. Again you make use of the same material as the 1930's article. But cut with a different tool.

Rivets are done either in Varney ph otoReal printed fashion or die impressed. Again as it was done then.

While the projects are not stock remnants of early kit production; they are designed to be built as the early kits were with very similar materials.

Just precut with something other than the older die cutting tooling.

Perhaps Vintage Tributes would be a good defining term for the things?

Mike Bauers
Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 16, 2016, at 4:55 PM, "eriepacific@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Mike,

I can appreciate the fact that Paul Moore models and parts are virtually impossible to come by. Due to their continued popularity today -- when they can be found -- the remaining availability of any of these products are quite scarce and practically non-existent. I can understand wanting to reproduce them as 3-D products especially as this would very closely follow Paul's blueprints. There's nothing wrong with that, but if they were to be produced in this manner, they could hardly be called "vintage," even if Paul himself produced them today.

In a message dated 2/16/2016 7:53:59 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

I need to disagree to a degree.

I've long sought out Paul Moore traction, doodlebug, and passenger car kits.

Some years ago I got to see the remaining stock of his parts, un gathered kits, and production drawing masters. It was in a hobby shop after it was de-acquired from a private collector. It was in limbo as the new owner was simply holding on to the material with no intension of doing anything with it. I suppose it's all in the hands of some other collector by now.

I've got some of the kits I wanted. But they are very hard to come by and many that pop up are badly damaged by the building decades ago.

Over the years I've gathered several of Paul's well drawn catalog sheets and once found many of his blueprints that I was able to obtain.

Even one of the more specific kits I originally wanted back in 1968, found just a couple of &n bsp;years ago. About three months ago I was lucky enough to get one of his TMER&L planbooks in a small group of other plan books, along with some of the original Hi-F Athearn F7 drives used by some series of Paul's kits and plans.

Per his catalogs and drawings, he had some few hundred designs in limited production kits and plan books.the kits and parts are very rare these days from a one man venture that stopped operation about 1970.

So I'm in the situation that I either build in the fashion of Paul's work from his meant to be built from plan books or I'm not going to have his stuff to use.

Now that the largest gathering of his remaining stock is hidden away in the hands of a private collection, or disposed of as old trash; I'm left with options of making or not having.

I will not go the direction of not having after all these years of locating a few relics of his life's work.

His work included several plan books that were intended to be used to build according to those plans. His line drawing catalog sheets are reductions of similar plans. His plan books are duplicates of his blueprints he use to make the major parts of his kits and car sides. He would have those printed on the working stock material and then cut out those printed drawings as his kit parts.

Unlike other vintage model RR cast production, he had hand cut body panels as the bulk of his kits and offered parts.

Thus I have been incrementally creeping towards constructing those designs I've been wanting from what source material I've been able to find. P

Mike Bauers
Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 16, 2016, at 5:55 AM, "Dave Audley audleydave@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

When I was working for Bob H. at Athabasca Scale Models, we often talked about how

many ASM kits were proabably stacked on shelves waiting to be built! We didn't very

often see finished models, and we offered free shirts & T-shirts for photos of finished kits!

Dave Audley

On Tuesday, February 16, 2016 3:56 AM, "eriepacific@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

For that matter, what does 3-D printing of models and laser cutting of their parts have anything to do with vintage HO, except perhaps to copy the older models in replacing them with new? Might be a way of reproducing old parts that can no longer be found, but reproducing whole models in this manner is not vintage as I see it. While the topic is obviously interesting to some, it really has no place here.

Ray W.

In a message dated 2/16/2016 1:57:40 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

I've been letting things drift a bit, but yes, per when I started the group, per our original statement DCC is definitely off topic. While I didn't say it I am getting concerned about reproductions too, small parts yes, but when members start talking about reproducing complete cars or locomotives, I do get concerned. The whole idea is to take the vintage pieces and RUN them.

I can't get really excited about things like motor conversions, because this is for people that OPERATE their models as well as admire them on the shelf, and upgrading things like trucks, couplers, etc, is fine, where do you draw the line?

Let's try and get back to what we were originally about, collecting and running the great vintage pieces of our youth.

Don

Don Dellmann
Contact me at: don.dellmann@...
See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

On 2/15/2016 7:49 PM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] wrote:

Bob,

You're far from being alone. I'd have to guess that most of us here prefer the same types of kits, from the same years and even earlier. Actually, DCC is out of place here and could be considered "Off Topic." It's certainly not Vintage. For that matter, can motor conversions are seen as being Off Topic, as I can't think of a single early H0 manufacturer which offered a can motor in their kits. This is all not to say that a modeler may not do as he pleases -- after all, it's his hobby -- but then, he getting far removed from operating as vintage, and that's half the fun of it; to operate just as it was many years past as these models were meant to be built up.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/15/2016 5:42:09 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

The comment came from a hobby shop owner and I think he was talking about wireless control systems.

I like the kits from the 40's, 50's, and 60's now. eBay is my friend!

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: Valerie Smith wooddale@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, February 15, 2016 9:21 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] WSJ article on end of the line for model trains

Bob

I just converted a brass locomotive to DCC and sound for under $90, so I don't know where you're getting your info. The only thing that needs to be watched out for in the conversions is to make sure the engine has a can motor and insulated from the frame.

Kits are still available and the new company, Scale Trains.com is producing them along with ready to run.

Larry Smith

--

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25077	From: trainliker	Date: 2/17/2016
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Kudos to Don

“Pulse power” is a little different animal. It is some 60 Hertz (oops, I forgot this is a vintage group - 60 cycle) added to the DC. At this low of a frequency, too much would burn up the motor. It sort of quickly jerks the motor to and fro at that low frequency a little with the result of running smoother by overcoming mechanical stixation. The AC for the DCC is a much higher frequency and since motors are coils with inductive reactance they tend not to see it.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Windows Mail

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: ‎Wednesday‎, ‎February‎ ‎17‎, ‎2016 ‎4‎:‎15‎ ‎AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Charles,

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/17/2016 1:05:01 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Here is a good primer on running a DC locomotive on a DCC system. It isn’t all hearts and roses.

https://sites.google.com/site/markgurries/home/technical-discussions/dc-loco-on-dcc

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Windows Mail

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: ‎Tuesday‎, ‎February‎ ‎16‎, ‎2016 ‎9‎:‎01‎ ‎PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/16/2016 8:41:29 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

I don't know about the other DCC systems but with DiGiTrax you can run ONE DC locomotive with the DCC locomotives.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2016 3:22 PM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Kudos to Don

John,

The terms "okay" and "vintage" appear to be almost interchangeable in many of these posts. If the only way to operate a vintage piece on a club layout is to install DCC (while still retaining DC capacity), my take on it is that it positively is okay -- but it's no longer strictly a vintage piece simply because DCC is not vintage. Other modelers can the appreciate how a vintage piece appears even though it's not being operated as one.

As for (Mike) Bauers' posts, I enjoy every one of them I see. Mike has certain style all his own. I only have to start reading one of them and I already know who wrote it before scrolling down to see who signed it. BTW, I regret having forgot to sign my last post -- something that I almost never refrain from doing. My apologies to all. I saw my signature was missing only after I clicked on send and before it actually went. Too late to change things then.

No, I missed seeing those $215 Sharks. Hard to figure, when I know I must have seen at least a dozen or more over the past year going for an average of from $25 -- $30 to no more than $40 each. Why wouldn't this buyer try buying one of those when he had the chance? Shows that some modelers don't know the true value of stuff they bid on, or they have deep enough pockets to allow them not to care.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/16/2016 9:40:57 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Don,

I for one agree with you wholeheartedly. I do accept the idea of repowering as that adds to the idea of operating vintage models.

I do tend to vacillate on DCC as some of us would like to be able to operate our precious antiques on club or other layouts where DCC is the operating system. I feel as long as the ability to run on DC is not compromised it is probably okay.

That said I do draw a line at sound, at least anything digital. If someone happens to have one of the old Mantua Syncro-Steam Sound locos, well go for it.

This is my favorite group and one that I am delighted whenever I see new postings, even from Bauers’ (said in jest). You have done an excellent job of controlling content without becoming dictatorial. Keep up the great work.

BTW, did any of you notice the sale on eBay of an AB set of Mantua Sharks for $215.00. This was an auction that I was following but once it got to $60.00, two bidders when nuts. Heck, I couldn’t afford the $60.00 level. A nice set for sure, both powered and in totally bare metal, original boxes and all but the price is ridiculous. For a $50.00 item no less.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2016 12:57 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] WSJ article on end of the line for model trains

I've been letting things drift a bit, but yes, per when I started the group, per our original statement DCC is definitely off topic. While I didn't say it I am getting concerned about reproductions too, small parts yes, but when members start talking about reproducing complete cars or locomotives, I do get concerned. The whole idea is to take the vintage pieces and RUN them.

I can't get really excited about things like motor conversions, because this is for people that OPERATE their models as well as admire them on the shelf, and upgrading things like trucks, couplers, etc, is fine, where do you draw the line?

Let's try and get back to what we were originally about, collecting and running the great vintage pieces of our youth.

Don

Don Dellmann
Contact me at: don.dellmann@...
See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

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Group: vintageHO	Message: 25078	From: Bob Macklin	Date: 2/17/2016
Subject: Re: Kudos to Don

The last version of the Varney Dockside produced by Bowser did have a can motor.

And NWSL does produce a repower kit with new gears and a can motor for the Dockside.

But with the ATTITUDE I got from the local club I don't have a need to change.

I have almost all the parts(new from Bowser) to assemble a new Dockside. One item that is missing is the motor. I was planning to change the gears to NWSL gears so I might just as well use the complete NWSL repower kit.

But for now no need to go to DCC.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: Victor Bitleris bitlerisvj@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2016 7:24 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Kudos to Don

Hi Bob,

I agree DCC would not have much value on a 2 ft by 4 ft diorama. However, way back in the 1970's I think, Earl Smallshaw had a friend install Central Valley valve gear, a can motor with a flywheel and PFM sound in a Varney Docksider. WOW!!! If he could do all of that way back then, certainly a TCS WOW or Econami would fit in Little Joe, especially if you change out that HUGE Varney motor with a decent can motor. If one wanted to of course.

Regards, Vic B.

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Bob Macklin macklinbob@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2016 1:33 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Kudos to Don

Ray,

A couple months ago I asked our local club about running a DC locomotive on their DCC layout. They thought it could be done.

Bu they don't permit it. Plus they told me they use code 83 rails and our old locomotives won't stay on the track.

You can't put DCC in a Varney Dockside, Roundhouse 0-6-0T, Mantua Booster, or Mantua General.

I'm not going back to DCC. I have a 2' by 4' diorama. No need for DCC.

The club I was in Sacramento is now like the one here in Tacoma.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2016 9:01 PM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Kudos to Don

Interesting! I wouldn't know about that, Bob. I don't have (and don't want) any form of DCC. So then, from what you're describing, if a club has DiGiTrax (or possibly even another form of DCC that works similarly), there's no good reason to install DCC in a vintage loco to be able to operate it on such a layout. Thanks for the enlightenment.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/16/2016 8:41:29 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

I don't know about the other DCC systems but with DiGiTrax you can run ONE DC locomotive with the DCC locomotives.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2016 3:22 PM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Kudos to Don

John,

The terms "okay" and "vintage" appear to be almost interchangeable in many of these posts. If the only way to operate a vintage piece on a club layout is to install DCC (while still retaining DC capacity), my take on it is that it positively is okay -- but it's no longer strictly a vintage piece simply because DCC is not vintage. Other modelers can the appreciate how a vintage piece appears even though it's not being operated as one.

As for (Mike) Bauers' posts, I enjoy every one of them I see. Mike has certain style all his own. I only have to start reading one of them and I already know who wrote it before scrolling down to see who signed it. BTW, I regret having forgot to sign my last post -- something that I almost never refrain from doing. My apologies to all. I saw my signature was missing only after I clicked on send and before it actually went. Too late to change things then.

No, I missed seeing those $215 Sharks. Hard to figure, when I know I must have seen at least a dozen or more over the past year going for an average of from $25 -- $30 to no more than $40 each. Why wouldn't this buyer try buying one of those when he had the chance? Shows that some modelers don't know the true value of stuff they bid on, or they have deep enough pockets to allow them not to care.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/16/2016 9:40:57 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Don,

I for one agree with you wholeheartedly. I do accept the idea of repowering as that adds to the idea of operating vintage models.

I do tend to vacillate on DCC as some of us would like to be able to operate our precious antiques on club or other layouts where DCC is the operating system. I feel as long as the ability to run on DC is not compromised it is probably okay.

That said I do draw a line at sound, at least anything digital. If someone happens to have one of the old Mantua Syncro-Steam Sound locos, well go for it.

This is my favorite group and one that I am delighted whenever I see new postings, even from Bauers’ (said in jest). You have done an excellent job of controlling content without becoming dictatorial. Keep up the great work.

BTW, did any of you notice the sale on eBay of an AB set of Mantua Sharks for $215.00. This was an auction that I was following but once it got to $60.00, two bidders when nuts. Heck, I couldn’t afford the $60.00 level. A nice set for sure, both powered and in totally bare metal, original boxes and all but the price is ridiculous. For a $50.00 item no less.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2016 12:57 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] WSJ article on end of the line for model trains

I've been letting things drift a bit, but yes, per when I started the group, per our original statement DCC is definitely off topic. While I didn't say it I am getting concerned about reproductions too, small parts yes, but when members start talking about reproducing complete cars or locomotives, I do get concerned. The whole idea is to take the vintage pieces and RUN them.

I can't get really excited about things like motor conversions, because this is for people that OPERATE their models as well as admire them on the shelf, and upgrading things like trucks, couplers, etc, is fine, where do you draw the line?

Let's try and get back to what we were originally about, collecting and running the great vintage pieces of our youth.

Don

Don Dellmann
Contact me at: don.dellmann@...
See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Reply via web post

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Group: vintageHO	Message: 25079	From: trainliker	Date: 2/17/2016
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: WSJ article on end of the line for model trains

In the automobile world this is called “restomod” or “resto-mod”. Restored but modified.

Pretty apt term and sounds better than “you ruined that classic!”

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Windows Mail

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: ‎Wednesday‎, ‎February‎ ‎17‎, ‎2016 ‎4‎:‎03‎ ‎AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Mike,

Perhaps we could call these older models having compact DCC boards in them, to enable them to operate in either mode, "Modified Vintage" models, with the emphasis put on Modified.

Ray W.

In a message dated 2/17/2016 12:40:52 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

I agree with both of you.

I would amend it just a bit.

A DCC locomotive is mostly a well running motor that is isolated from the frame, and connected by wiring.

Just changing a vintage unit from having a grounded motor makes it DCC ready.

It's not unseemly to add a plugged ( jumpered ) DCC socket to a vintage model that can at times house a compact DCC board allowing the vintage model to operate on either straight DC or DCC controlled layouts.

That way you are only making a minor change in the vintage models wiring.

The model remains otherwise original.

Mike Bauers
Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 16, 2016, at 5:03 PM, "Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... [vintageHO]" << a href="mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com">vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

I'm not saying don't do it. (Truth be told I have two locomotives {non vintage} equipped with DCC just to run on a friend's layout.

I'm just saying this is not really the forum to talk about it

Don

On 2/16/2016 11:06 AM, Ed Weldon 23.weldon@... [vintageHO] wrote:

Ray - I don't think DCC is off topic here. What's wrong with converting
old model train iron so it runs better? ....

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25080	From: Bob Macklin	Date: 2/17/2016
Subject: Re: WSJ article on end of the line for model trains

Thanks, that's nice to know.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: Victor Bitleris bitlerisvj@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2016 7:40 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] WSJ article on end of the line for model trains

Not sure about Varney or Mantua. Ulrich seems to be totally focused on DCC stuff, not car kits. However, Silver Streak kits are alive and well at Ye Olde Huff N Puff.

http://www.yeoldehuffnpuff.com/index.html

They also sell Silver Streak parts.

Trout Creek Engineering sells wood car kits, the old Taurus line.

http://www.troutcreekeng.com/index.html

Regards, Vic B.

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Bob Macklin macklinbob@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2016 10:32 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] WSJ article on end of the line for model trains

Where can I buy Varney, Mantua, Silver Streak, or Ulrich "REPRO" kits?

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2016 3:56 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] WSJ article on end of the line for model trains

If the object of this straightforward explanation is to show that such DIY models are still "vintage," it should be noted that while the construction of these models may be straight out of the 1930's, they are actually being made today in 2016. It's the year that models are produced as being part of why they're vintage and not the year they were reproduced by any other method or materials -- even if these methods and material were exactly the same as the original models.

There are duplicates of antique automobiles being produced today. They are not considered antiques by any stretch of the imagination, even though they mirror the same image, but they're referred to as "Reproductions." Again, absolutely nothing wrong with reproducing model trains, since the Real McCoy can't always be obtained -- and at least the modeler can enjoy what the original had looked like -- but it can't be considered a vintage model. It's great that there are still Paul Moore blueprints around, to be able to construct copies of his original models and yes, "Vintage Tributes" might be one term to describe them.

Just to briefly get back to references of antique automobiles that Larry and I were discussing, while a 20 or 25 year old car may be considered "antique" in Illinois and New Jersey respectively, this would date them only to 1996 and 1991 -- hardly looking at all like the antique cars we're all familiar with as cars of this description, yet old enough to be considered as such by these states. As I've always been accustomed to, Antique cars have always been those that were manufactured pre-WW II. All other older cars not going back quite that far, but still considered by most states to qualify for obtaining antique license (registration) plates/tags are considered as Classic Cars by most owners of them.

While this group is referring to these older H0 models as being vintage, we're still not describing them as antique -- even though many of them are pre-War (and are obviously antiques as we would consider the term). For furniture to be an antique, it's required that it must be at least 100 years old and 50 years old qualifies it as vintage. So by this, it can be seen that auto or furniture designations have no close correlation with model trains although the time frames are similar -- at least for vintage H0 -- where furniture going back to 1966 and earlier is vintage. By that standard though, none of us have any antique H0 unless we can find models produced in 1916 or before < g >.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/17/2016 12:40:39 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

A lot of them are 1920's and earlier cars. That's another sort of vintage.

Other than the tooling, the construction is straight out of 1930's MR construction articles, and the bulk of the material to be used is recent production of the same materials used then.

It's really just a DIY that mirrors the same period construction that was done with pre-printed scale RR cars as you can find in the pages of MR, where they printed some pages of full color billboard reefers. Instead of using one page to build the model, you do the cutting on a number of identical pages to build up 3d relief in one model made from a few copies of the same side.

In many cases the original vintage model had its chassis built of cut art-card or thin wood. Again you make use of the same material as the 1930's article. But cut with a different tool.

Rivets are done either in Varney ph otoReal printed fashion or die impressed. Again as it was done then.

While the projects are not stock remnants of early kit production; they are designed to be built as the early kits were with very similar materials.

Just precut with something other than the older die cutting tooling.

Perhaps Vintage Tributes would be a good defining term for the things?

Mike Bauers
Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 16, 2016, at 4:55 PM, "eriepacific@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Mike,

I can appreciate the fact that Paul Moore models and parts are virtually impossible to come by. Due to their continued popularity today -- when they can be found -- the remaining availability of any of these products are quite scarce and practically non-existent. I can understand wanting to reproduce them as 3-D products especially as this would very closely follow Paul's blueprints. There's nothing wrong with that, but if they were to be produced in this manner, they could hardly be called "vintage," even if Paul himself produced them today.

In a message dated 2/16/2016 7:53:59 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

I need to disagree to a degree.

I've long sought out Paul Moore traction, doodlebug, and passenger car kits.

Some years ago I got to see the remaining stock of his parts, un gathered kits, and production drawing masters. It was in a hobby shop after it was de-acquired from a private collector. It was in limbo as the new owner was simply holding on to the material with no intension of doing anything with it. I suppose it's all in the hands of some other collector by now.

I've got some of the kits I wanted. But they are very hard to come by and many that pop up are badly damaged by the building decades ago.

Over the years I've gathered several of Paul's well drawn catalog sheets and once found many of his blueprints that I was able to obtain.

Even one of the more specific kits I originally wanted back in 1968, found just a couple of &n bsp;years ago. About three months ago I was lucky enough to get one of his TMER&L planbooks in a small group of other plan books, along with some of the original Hi-F Athearn F7 drives used by some series of Paul's kits and plans.

Per his catalogs and drawings, he had some few hundred designs in limited production kits and plan books.the kits and parts are very rare these days from a one man venture that stopped operation about 1970.

So I'm in the situation that I either build in the fashion of Paul's work from his meant to be built from plan books or I'm not going to have his stuff to use.

Now that the largest gathering of his remaining stock is hidden away in the hands of a private collection, or disposed of as old trash; I'm left with options of making or not having.

I will not go the direction of not having after all these years of locating a few relics of his life's work.

His work included several plan books that were intended to be used to build according to those plans. His line drawing catalog sheets are reductions of similar plans. His plan books are duplicates of his blueprints he use to make the major parts of his kits and car sides. He would have those printed on the working stock material and then cut out those printed drawings as his kit parts.

Unlike other vintage model RR cast production, he had hand cut body panels as the bulk of his kits and offered parts.

Thus I have been incrementally creeping towards constructing those designs I've been wanting from what source material I've been able to find. P

Mike Bauers
Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 16, 2016, at 5:55 AM, "Dave Audley audleydave@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

When I was working for Bob H. at Athabasca Scale Models, we often talked about how

many ASM kits were proabably stacked on shelves waiting to be built! We didn't very

often see finished models, and we offered free shirts & T-shirts for photos of finished kits!

Dave Audley

On Tuesday, February 16, 2016 3:56 AM, "eriepacific@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

For that matter, what does 3-D printing of models and laser cutting of their parts have anything to do with vintage HO, except perhaps to copy the older models in replacing them with new? Might be a way of reproducing old parts that can no longer be found, but reproducing whole models in this manner is not vintage as I see it. While the topic is obviously interesting to some, it really has no place here.

Ray W.

In a message dated 2/16/2016 1:57:40 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

I've been letting things drift a bit, but yes, per when I started the group, per our original statement DCC is definitely off topic. While I didn't say it I am getting concerned about reproductions too, small parts yes, but when members start talking about reproducing complete cars or locomotives, I do get concerned. The whole idea is to take the vintage pieces and RUN them.

I can't get really excited about things like motor conversions, because this is for people that OPERATE their models as well as admire them on the shelf, and upgrading things like trucks, couplers, etc, is fine, where do you draw the line?

Let's try and get back to what we were originally about, collecting and running the great vintage pieces of our youth.

Don

Don Dellmann
Contact me at: don.dellmann@...
See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

On 2/15/2016 7:49 PM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] wrote:

Bob,

You're far from being alone. I'd have to guess that most of us here prefer the same types of kits, from the same years and even earlier. Actually, DCC is out of place here and could be considered "Off Topic." It's certainly not Vintage. For that matter, can motor conversions are seen as being Off Topic, as I can't think of a single early H0 manufacturer which offered a can motor in their kits. This is all not to say that a modeler may not do as he pleases -- after all, it's his hobby -- but then, he getting far removed from operating as vintage, and that's half the fun of it; to operate just as it was many years past as these models were meant to be built up.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/15/2016 5:42:09 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

The comment came from a hobby shop owner and I think he was talking about wireless control systems.

I like the kits from the 40's, 50's, and 60's now. eBay is my friend!

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: Valerie Smith wooddale@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, February 15, 2016 9:21 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] WSJ article on end of the line for model trains

Bob

I just converted a brass locomotive to DCC and sound for under $90, so I don't know where you're getting your info. The only thing that needs to be watched out for in the conversions is to make sure the engine has a can motor and insulated from the frame.

Kits are still available and the new company, Scale Trains.com is producing them along with ready to run.

Larry Smith

--

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25081	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 2/17/2016
Subject: Re: WSJ article on end of the line for model trains

Bob,

On eBay, where you're buying your other stuff. Walthers produced 'repro' of Silver Streak and Ulrich in the 1970's and into the 1980's. Could have even started reproducing some in the late 1960's, I can't recall off the top of my head. Ye Ole Huff and Puff produced a lot of different "repros" of earlier manufacturers' kits, like Laconia, Binkley and some others. They're all long out of production though; nothing that I know of like these being produced today. Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/17/2016 10:31:34 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Where can I buy Varney, Mantua, Silver Streak, or Ulrich "REPRO" kits?

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2016 3:56 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] WSJ article on end of the line for model trains

If the object of this straightforward explanation is to show that such DIY models are still "vintage," it should be noted that while the construction of these models may be straight out of the 1930's, they are actually being made today in 2016. It's the year that models are produced as being part of why they're vintage and not the year they were reproduced by any other method or materials -- even if these methods and material were exactly the same as the original models.

There are duplicates of antique automobiles being produced today. They are not considered antiques by any stretch of the imagination, even though they mirror the same image, but they're referred to as "Reproductions." Again, absolutely nothing wrong with reproducing model trains, since the Real McCoy can't always be obtained -- and at least the modeler can enjoy what the original had looked like -- but it can't be considered a vintage model. It's great that there are still Paul Moore blueprints around, to be able to construct copies of his original models and yes, "Vintage Tributes" might be one term to describe them.

Just to briefly get back to references of antique automobiles that Larry and I were discussing, while a 20 or 25 year old car may be considered "antique" in Illinois and New Jersey respectively, this would date them only to 1996 and 1991 -- hardly looking at all like the antique cars we're all familiar with as cars of this description, yet old enough to be considered as such by these states. As I've always been accustomed to, Antique cars have always been those that were manufactured pre-WW II. All other older cars not going back quite that far, but still considered by most states to qualify for obtaining antique license (registration) plates/tags are considered as Classic Cars by most owners of them.

While this group is referring to these older H0 models as being vintage, we're still not describing them as antique -- even though many of them are pre-War (and are obviously antiques as we would consider the term). For furniture to be an antique, it's required that it must be at least 100 years old and 50 years old qualifies it as vintage. So by this, it can be seen that auto or furniture designations have no close correlation with model trains although the time frames are similar -- at least for vintage H0 -- where furniture going back to 1966 and earlier is vintage. By that standard though, none of us have any antique H0 unless we can find models produced in 1916 or before < g >.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/17/2016 12:40:39 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

A lot of them are 1920's and earlier cars. That's another sort of vintage.

Other than the tooling, the construction is straight out of 1930's MR construction articles, and the bulk of the material to be used is recent production of the same materials used then.

It's really just a DIY that mirrors the same period construction that was done with pre-printed scale RR cars as you can find in the pages of MR, where they printed some pages of full color billboard reefers. Instead of using one page to build the model, you do the cutting on a number of identical pages to build up 3d relief in one model made from a few copies of the same side.

In many cases the original vintage model had its chassis built of cut art-card or thin wood. Again you make use of the same material as the 1930's article. But cut with a different tool.

Rivets are done either in Varney ph otoReal printed fashion or die impressed. Again as it was done then.

While the projects are not stock remnants of early kit production; they are designed to be built as the early kits were with very similar materials.

Just precut with something other than the older die cutting tooling.

Perhaps Vintage Tributes would be a good defining term for the things?

Mike Bauers
Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 16, 2016, at 4:55 PM, "eriepacific@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Mike,

I can appreciate the fact that Paul Moore models and parts are virtually impossible to come by. Due to their continued popularity today -- when they can be found -- the remaining availability of any of these products are quite scarce and practically non-existent. I can understand wanting to reproduce them as 3-D products especially as this would very closely follow Paul's blueprints. There's nothing wrong with that, but if they were to be produced in this manner, they could hardly be called "vintage," even if Paul himself produced them today.

In a message dated 2/16/2016 7:53:59 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

I need to disagree to a degree.

I've long sought out Paul Moore traction, doodlebug, and passenger car kits.

Some years ago I got to see the remaining stock of his parts, un gathered kits, and production drawing masters. It was in a hobby shop after it was de-acquired from a private collector. It was in limbo as the new owner was simply holding on to the material with no intension of doing anything with it. I suppose it's all in the hands of some other collector by now.

I've got some of the kits I wanted. But they are very hard to come by and many that pop up are badly damaged by the building decades ago.

Over the years I've gathered several of Paul's well drawn catalog sheets and once found many of his blueprints that I was able to obtain.

Even one of the more specific kits I originally wanted back in 1968, found just a couple of &n bsp;years ago. About three months ago I was lucky enough to get one of his TMER&L planbooks in a small group of other plan books, along with some of the original Hi-F Athearn F7 drives used by some series of Paul's kits and plans.

Per his catalogs and drawings, he had some few hundred designs in limited production kits and plan books.the kits and parts are very rare these days from a one man venture that stopped operation about 1970.

So I'm in the situation that I either build in the fashion of Paul's work from his meant to be built from plan books or I'm not going to have his stuff to use.

Now that the largest gathering of his remaining stock is hidden away in the hands of a private collection, or disposed of as old trash; I'm left with options of making or not having.

I will not go the direction of not having after all these years of locating a few relics of his life's work.

His work included several plan books that were intended to be used to build according to those plans. His line drawing catalog sheets are reductions of similar plans. His plan books are duplicates of his blueprints he use to make the major parts of his kits and car sides. He would have those printed on the working stock material and then cut out those printed drawings as his kit parts.

Unlike other vintage model RR cast production, he had hand cut body panels as the bulk of his kits and offered parts.

Thus I have been incrementally creeping towards constructing those designs I've been wanting from what source material I've been able to find. P

Mike Bauers
Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 16, 2016, at 5:55 AM, "Dave Audley audleydave@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

When I was working for Bob H. at Athabasca Scale Models, we often talked about how

many ASM kits were proabably stacked on shelves waiting to be built! We didn't very

often see finished models, and we offered free shirts & T-shirts for photos of finished kits!

Dave Audley

On Tuesday, February 16, 2016 3:56 AM, "eriepacific@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

For that matter, what does 3-D printing of models and laser cutting of their parts have anything to do with vintage HO, except perhaps to copy the older models in replacing them with new? Might be a way of reproducing old parts that can no longer be found, but reproducing whole models in this manner is not vintage as I see it. While the topic is obviously interesting to some, it really has no place here.

Ray W.

In a message dated 2/16/2016 1:57:40 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

I've been letting things drift a bit, but yes, per when I started the group, per our original statement DCC is definitely off topic. While I didn't say it I am getting concerned about reproductions too, small parts yes, but when members start talking about reproducing complete cars or locomotives, I do get concerned. The whole idea is to take the vintage pieces and RUN them.

I can't get really excited about things like motor conversions, because this is for people that OPERATE their models as well as admire them on the shelf, and upgrading things like trucks, couplers, etc, is fine, where do you draw the line?

Let's try and get back to what we were originally about, collecting and running the great vintage pieces of our youth.

Don

Don Dellmann
Contact me at: don.dellmann@...
See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

On 2/15/2016 7:49 PM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] wrote:

Bob,

You're far from being alone. I'd have to guess that most of us here prefer the same types of kits, from the same years and even earlier. Actually, DCC is out of place here and could be considered "Off Topic." It's certainly not Vintage. For that matter, can motor conversions are seen as being Off Topic, as I can't think of a single early H0 manufacturer which offered a can motor in their kits. This is all not to say that a modeler may not do as he pleases -- after all, it's his hobby -- but then, he getting far removed from operating as vintage, and that's half the fun of it; to operate just as it was many years past as these models were meant to be built up.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/15/2016 5:42:09 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

The comment came from a hobby shop owner and I think he was talking about wireless control systems.

I like the kits from the 40's, 50's, and 60's now. eBay is my friend!

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: Valerie Smith wooddale@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, February 15, 2016 9:21 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] WSJ article on end of the line for model trains

Bob

I just converted a brass locomotive to DCC and sound for under $90, so I don't know where you're getting your info. The only thing that needs to be watched out for in the conversions is to make sure the engine has a can motor and insulated from the frame.

Kits are still available and the new company, Scale Trains.com is producing them along with ready to run.

Larry Smith

--

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25082	From: Bob Macklin	Date: 2/17/2016
Subject: Central Valley Trucks?

I had some Central Valley cars with the nice CV trucks. And I had a lot of other cars that had CV trucks. I also had many sets of CV trucks in their original boxes.

These were all built in the 60's and 70's. When I sold them 15 years ago I found many of the falling apart.

In later years I converted to Kadee trucks and I had no problems with them.

But the CV trucks (when working) always seemed to roll better that even the Kadees.

I have seen NIB CV trucks on eBay but I have been reluctant to buying them because of the problems I was having with then 20 years ago.

Comments?

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25083	From: trainliker	Date: 2/17/2016
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Central Valley Trucks?

Another problem is the little pieces of packing foam adhering to the trucks. Just like the problem with some brass engines packed away for too long with foam in direct contact.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Windows Mail

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: ‎Wednesday‎, ‎February‎ ‎17‎, ‎2016 ‎8‎:‎41‎ ‎AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

I had some Central Valley cars with the nice CV trucks. And I had a lot of other cars that had CV trucks. I also had many sets of CV trucks in their original boxes.

These were all built in the 60's and 70's. When I sold them 15 years ago I found many of the falling apart.

In later years I converted to Kadee trucks and I had no problems with them.

But the CV trucks (when working) always seemed to roll better that even the Kadees.

I have seen NIB CV trucks on eBay but I have been reluctant to buying them because of the problems I was having with then 20 years ago.

Comments?

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25084	From: Bob Macklin	Date: 2/17/2016
Subject: Re: Central Valley Trucks?

I did have that problem too!

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: ckinzer@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2016 8:53 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Central Valley Trucks?

Another problem is the little pieces of packing foam adhering to the trucks. Just like the problem with some brass engines packed away for too long with foam in direct contact.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Windows Mail

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: ‎Wednesday‎, ‎February‎ ‎17‎, ‎2016 ‎8‎:‎41‎ ‎AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

I had some Central Valley cars with the nice CV trucks. And I had a lot of other cars that had CV trucks. I also had many sets of CV trucks in their original boxes.

These were all built in the 60's and 70's. When I sold them 15 years ago I found many of the falling apart.

In later years I converted to Kadee trucks and I had no problems with them.

But the CV trucks (when working) always seemed to roll better that even the Kadees.

I have seen NIB CV trucks on eBay but I have been reluctant to buying them because of the problems I was having with then 20 years ago.

Comments?

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25085	From: Bob Macklin	Date: 2/17/2016
Subject: Re: WSJ article on end of the line for model trains

Ray,

I have purchased several NIB Silver Streak kits produced by Walters's on eBay. I have also seen the Ulrich kits produced by Walther's but I have not bought any of them yet.

I have been buying Varney kits with the metal bodies. Both with the wood floors (pre 1955) and with the plastic floors (post 1955). I have been seeing some NIB Varney kits that are the older paper (cardboard) sides. I hope to try some of these.

There is so much Athearn stuff it is hard to find the early Athearn metal cars but I would be interested in them also.

With a 2' by 4' layout what do I need all this stuff for?

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2016 8:35 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] WSJ article on end of the line for model trains

Bob,

On eBay, where you're buying your other stuff. Walthers produced 'repro' of Silver Streak and Ulrich in the 1970's and into the 1980's. Could have even started reproducing some in the late 1960's, I can't recall off the top of my head. Ye Ole Huff and Puff produced a lot of different "repros" of earlier manufacturers' kits, like Laconia, Binkley and some others. They're all long out of production though; nothing that I know of like these being produced today. Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/17/2016 10:31:34 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Where can I buy Varney, Mantua, Silver Streak, or Ulrich "REPRO" kits?

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2016 3:56 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] WSJ article on end of the line for model trains

If the object of this straightforward explanation is to show that such DIY models are still "vintage," it should be noted that while the construction of these models may be straight out of the 1930's, they are actually being made today in 2016. It's the year that models are produced as being part of why they're vintage and not the year they were reproduced by any other method or materials -- even if these methods and material were exactly the same as the original models.

There are duplicates of antique automobiles being produced today. They are not considered antiques by any stretch of the imagination, even though they mirror the same image, but they're referred to as "Reproductions." Again, absolutely nothing wrong with reproducing model trains, since the Real McCoy can't always be obtained -- and at least the modeler can enjoy what the original had looked like -- but it can't be considered a vintage model. It's great that there are still Paul Moore blueprints around, to be able to construct copies of his original models and yes, "Vintage Tributes" might be one term to describe them.

Just to briefly get back to references of antique automobiles that Larry and I were discussing, while a 20 or 25 year old car may be considered "antique" in Illinois and New Jersey respectively, this would date them only to 1996 and 1991 -- hardly looking at all like the antique cars we're all familiar with as cars of this description, yet old enough to be considered as such by these states. As I've always been accustomed to, Antique cars have always been those that were manufactured pre-WW II. All other older cars not going back quite that far, but still considered by most states to qualify for obtaining antique license (registration) plates/tags are considered as Classic Cars by most owners of them.

While this group is referring to these older H0 models as being vintage, we're still not describing them as antique -- even though many of them are pre-War (and are obviously antiques as we would consider the term). For furniture to be an antique, it's required that it must be at least 100 years old and 50 years old qualifies it as vintage. So by this, it can be seen that auto or furniture designations have no close correlation with model trains although the time frames are similar -- at least for vintage H0 -- where furniture going back to 1966 and earlier is vintage. By that standard though, none of us have any antique H0 unless we can find models produced in 1916 or before < g >.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/17/2016 12:40:39 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

A lot of them are 1920's and earlier cars. That's another sort of vintage.

Other than the tooling, the construction is straight out of 1930's MR construction articles, and the bulk of the material to be used is recent production of the same materials used then.

It's really just a DIY that mirrors the same period construction that was done with pre-printed scale RR cars as you can find in the pages of MR, where they printed some pages of full color billboard reefers. Instead of using one page to build the model, you do the cutting on a number of identical pages to build up 3d relief in one model made from a few copies of the same side.

In many cases the original vintage model had its chassis built of cut art-card or thin wood. Again you make use of the same material as the 1930's article. But cut with a different tool.

Rivets are done either in Varney ph otoReal printed fashion or die impressed. Again as it was done then.

While the projects are not stock remnants of early kit production; they are designed to be built as the early kits were with very similar materials.

Just precut with something other than the older die cutting tooling.

Perhaps Vintage Tributes would be a good defining term for the things?

Mike Bauers
Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 16, 2016, at 4:55 PM, "eriepacific@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Mike,

I can appreciate the fact that Paul Moore models and parts are virtually impossible to come by. Due to their continued popularity today -- when they can be found -- the remaining availability of any of these products are quite scarce and practically non-existent. I can understand wanting to reproduce them as 3-D products especially as this would very closely follow Paul's blueprints. There's nothing wrong with that, but if they were to be produced in this manner, they could hardly be called "vintage," even if Paul himself produced them today.

In a message dated 2/16/2016 7:53:59 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

I need to disagree to a degree.

I've long sought out Paul Moore traction, doodlebug, and passenger car kits.

Some years ago I got to see the remaining stock of his parts, un gathered kits, and production drawing masters. It was in a hobby shop after it was de-acquired from a private collector. It was in limbo as the new owner was simply holding on to the material with no intension of doing anything with it. I suppose it's all in the hands of some other collector by now.

I've got some of the kits I wanted. But they are very hard to come by and many that pop up are badly damaged by the building decades ago.

Over the years I've gathered several of Paul's well drawn catalog sheets and once found many of his blueprints that I was able to obtain.

Even one of the more specific kits I originally wanted back in 1968, found just a couple of &n bsp;years ago. About three months ago I was lucky enough to get one of his TMER&L planbooks in a small group of other plan books, along with some of the original Hi-F Athearn F7 drives used by some series of Paul's kits and plans.

Per his catalogs and drawings, he had some few hundred designs in limited production kits and plan books.the kits and parts are very rare these days from a one man venture that stopped operation about 1970.

So I'm in the situation that I either build in the fashion of Paul's work from his meant to be built from plan books or I'm not going to have his stuff to use.

Now that the largest gathering of his remaining stock is hidden away in the hands of a private collection, or disposed of as old trash; I'm left with options of making or not having.

I will not go the direction of not having after all these years of locating a few relics of his life's work.

His work included several plan books that were intended to be used to build according to those plans. His line drawing catalog sheets are reductions of similar plans. His plan books are duplicates of his blueprints he use to make the major parts of his kits and car sides. He would have those printed on the working stock material and then cut out those printed drawings as his kit parts.

Unlike other vintage model RR cast production, he had hand cut body panels as the bulk of his kits and offered parts.

Thus I have been incrementally creeping towards constructing those designs I've been wanting from what source material I've been able to find. P

Mike Bauers
Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 16, 2016, at 5:55 AM, "Dave Audley audleydave@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

When I was working for Bob H. at Athabasca Scale Models, we often talked about how

many ASM kits were proabably stacked on shelves waiting to be built! We didn't very

often see finished models, and we offered free shirts & T-shirts for photos of finished kits!

Dave Audley

On Tuesday, February 16, 2016 3:56 AM, "eriepacific@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

For that matter, what does 3-D printing of models and laser cutting of their parts have anything to do with vintage HO, except perhaps to copy the older models in replacing them with new? Might be a way of reproducing old parts that can no longer be found, but reproducing whole models in this manner is not vintage as I see it. While the topic is obviously interesting to some, it really has no place here.

Ray W.

In a message dated 2/16/2016 1:57:40 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

I've been letting things drift a bit, but yes, per when I started the group, per our original statement DCC is definitely off topic. While I didn't say it I am getting concerned about reproductions too, small parts yes, but when members start talking about reproducing complete cars or locomotives, I do get concerned. The whole idea is to take the vintage pieces and RUN them.

I can't get really excited about things like motor conversions, because this is for people that OPERATE their models as well as admire them on the shelf, and upgrading things like trucks, couplers, etc, is fine, where do you draw the line?

Let's try and get back to what we were originally about, collecting and running the great vintage pieces of our youth.

Don

Don Dellmann
Contact me at: don.dellmann@...
See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

On 2/15/2016 7:49 PM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] wrote:

Bob,

You're far from being alone. I'd have to guess that most of us here prefer the same types of kits, from the same years and even earlier. Actually, DCC is out of place here and could be considered "Off Topic." It's certainly not Vintage. For that matter, can motor conversions are seen as being Off Topic, as I can't think of a single early H0 manufacturer which offered a can motor in their kits. This is all not to say that a modeler may not do as he pleases -- after all, it's his hobby -- but then, he getting far removed from operating as vintage, and that's half the fun of it; to operate just as it was many years past as these models were meant to be built up.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/15/2016 5:42:09 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

The comment came from a hobby shop owner and I think he was talking about wireless control systems.

I like the kits from the 40's, 50's, and 60's now. eBay is my friend!

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: Valerie Smith wooddale@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, February 15, 2016 9:21 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] WSJ article on end of the line for model trains

Bob

I just converted a brass locomotive to DCC and sound for under $90, so I don't know where you're getting your info. The only thing that needs to be watched out for in the conversions is to make sure the engine has a can motor and insulated from the frame.

Kits are still available and the new company, Scale Trains.com is producing them along with ready to run.

Larry Smith

--

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25086	From: trainliker	Date: 2/17/2016
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Central Valley Trucks?

A recent eBay auction for 40 (!) pairs of Central Valley freight trucks said this:

“The inside foam is disintegrating that you can clean off the wheelsets with rubbing alcohol without any damage to the metal wheels and frames.”

Is that true? Do they clean up that easily? Brass locomotives surely don’t.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Windows Mail

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: ‎Wednesday‎, ‎February‎ ‎17‎, ‎2016 ‎8‎:‎59‎ ‎AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

I did have that problem too!

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: ckinzer@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2016 8:53 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Central Valley Trucks?

Another problem is the little pieces of packing foam adhering to the trucks. Just like the problem with some brass engines packed away for too long with foam in direct contact.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Windows Mail

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: ‎Wednesday‎, ‎February‎ ‎17‎, ‎2016 ‎8‎:‎41‎ ‎AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

I had some Central Valley cars with the nice CV trucks. And I had a lot of other cars that had CV trucks. I also had many sets of CV trucks in their original boxes.

These were all built in the 60's and 70's. When I sold them 15 years ago I found many of the falling apart.

In later years I converted to Kadee trucks and I had no problems with them.

But the CV trucks (when working) always seemed to roll better that even the Kadees.

I have seen NIB CV trucks on eBay but I have been reluctant to buying them because of the problems I was having with then 20 years ago.

Comments?

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25087	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 2/17/2016
Subject: Re: Ken Kidder plantion loco

I got a great deal on a Bowser Trolley once because the previous owner had done exactly that! :-D

Don

On 2/17/2016 9:35 AM, Mike Bauers mwbauers55@... [vintageHO] wrote:

Are you sure the previous owner didn't accidentally flip the axle during assembly ?

Mike Bauers
Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 17, 2016, at 1:51 AM, "jim_irene.more@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

I have a Ken Kidder 0-4-0 Plantation loco that has a short between the wheel and the chassis. I am having a problem removing the wheel to check it out. Can any one assist me I have had it since the Early 60's and I got it second hand, so do not know how old it is.

Jim M

__._,_.__

-- Don Dellmann Contact me at: don.dellmann@... See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25088	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 2/17/2016
Subject: Re: Mantua Sharks

In the early 60's Hobbytown actually sold the Mantua bodies with Hobbytown drives, I would guess they did the same thing.

Don

On 2/17/2016 9:37 AM, Mike Bauers mwbauers55@... [vintageHO] wrote:

I'm removing my pillars to put modern drives in.

Mike Bauers
Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 16, 2016, at 6:58 PM, "fvh2@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Now I have a problem. A couple of years ago I gathered up a bunch of die-cast Shark shells to build up. I have both Mantua and (I think) Hobbytown A's and a couple of B's. The plan was to use Hobbytown drives mostly rebuilt from used parts on hand. One big problem is the huge pillar in the center of the Mantua shells: do I remove it or try to find Mantua parts. I really don't like the later Mantua/Tyco motor trucks at all. I guess the question is restored clunkers or non-original Resto-Rods. Or just leave them out behind the back shop.
Fred Holladay

-- Don Dellmann Contact me at: don.dellmann@... See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25089	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 2/17/2016
Subject: Re: Central Valley Trucks?

If you're buying CV's on eBay, make sure they're the original when George Hook still owned the company.

In the 70's they came out again, you can usually tell by the number, T-22 became 222, T-55 became 255 etc.

I've got some that are over 60 years old, still run like a dream. The reissued ones from the 70's aren't worth the powder to blow them up. (They only made them a year or two, then stopped making trucks they were so bad. The biggest problem was none of the wheelsets were in gauge)

Don

On 2/17/2016 10:41 AM, Bob Macklin macklinbob@... [vintageHO] wrote:

I had some Central Valley cars with the nice CV trucks. And I had a lot of other cars that had CV trucks. I also had many sets of CV trucks in their original boxes.

These were all built in the 60's and 70's. When I sold them 15 years ago I found many of the falling apart.

In later years I converted to Kadee trucks and I had no problems with them.

But the CV trucks (when working) always seemed to roll better that even the Kadees.

I have seen NIB CV trucks on eBay but I have been reluctant to buying them because of the problems I was having with then 20 years ago.

Comments?

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

-- Don Dellmann Contact me at: don.dellmann@... See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25090	From: roger_aultman	Date: 2/17/2016
Subject: Re: Mantua Sharks

--
Had two of those drives, if I remember correctly the bodies went on without modification, perhaps because the drive shaft was below the frame. Roger Aultman

-- "Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

=============
In the early 60's Hobbytown actually sold the Mantua bodies with
Hobbytown drives, I would guess they did the same thing.

Don

On 2/17/2016 9:37 AM, Mike Bauers mwbauers55@... [vintageHO] wrote:
> I'm removing my pillars to put modern drives in.
>
> Mike Bauers
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
> On Feb 16, 2016, at 6:58 PM, "fvh2@...
> <mailto:fvh2@...> [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>> wrote:
>
>>
>> Now I have a problem. A couple of years ago I gathered up a
>> bunch of die-cast Shark shells to build up. I have both Mantua and
>> (I think) Hobbytown A's and a couple of B's. The plan was to use
>> Hobbytown drives mostly rebuilt from used parts on hand. One big
>> problem is the huge pillar in the center of the Mantua shells: do I
>> remove it or try to find Mantua parts. I really don't like the later
>> Mantua/Tyco motor trucks at all. I guess the question is restored
>> clunkers or non-original Resto-Rods. Or just leave them out behind
>> the back shop.
>>
>> Fred Holladay
>

--
Don Dellmann
Contact me at:
don.dellmann@...
See my toys at:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25091	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 2/17/2016
Subject: Re: Kudos to Don

Bob,

I agree, screw that club and their dead-heads. Some people you just have to leave alone.

Still, the best part of DCC is the quality of the sound.

To do the same in pure DC you need to get one of the vintage PFM sound-control systems, or use the same pick-up method that it does, to pipe sound into the locomotives.

If you remember the pickup, it's a small coil and a pair of small caps feeding the on-model speaker, and blocking the power line noise.

When this system was first featured in The Hobby, I believe in the '30's, seen in MR, the sound feed was an ordinary sound-out cable from a phonograph.

I believe with the same pair of caps and the coil/ choke on the phono line connected to the tracks.

Except for a synchronized exhaust on a model steamer, the same can be done today with any audio sound source. One of those MRC trackside sound generators can be used like this to pipe in the sounds to the models.

Remembering this makes me want to try it with one of those sugar-cube smartphone speakers. It makes for a package about the size of two thumbnails about 1/8-inch thick.

It's something I can play with to see how well it can work today. Maybe with a sound-out port of a smartphone using that steam train sound app I have, or just a radio feed, or a recording of the old Lionel station announcement record.

The things one gets over the years from swap meets. I do have that record and it would be a hoot to make use of it like that.

And so I've rambled..... And wonder like you, why move to DCC when we can easily add sound to DC.

Mike Bauers

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 17, 2016, at 10:05 AM, "Bob Macklin macklinbob@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

The last version of the Varney Dockside produced by Bowser did have a can motor.

And NWSL does produce a repower kit with new gears and a can motor for the Dockside.

But with the ATTITUDE I got from the local club I don't have a need to change.

I have almost all the parts(new from Bowser) to assemble a new Dockside. One item that is missing is the motor. I was planning to change the gears to NWSL gears so I might just as well use the complete NWSL repower kit.

But for now no need to go to DCC.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: Victor Bitleris bitlerisvj@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2016 7:24 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Kudos to Don

Hi Bob,

I agree DCC would not have much value on a 2 ft by 4 ft diorama. However, way back in the 1970's I think, Earl Smallshaw had a friend install Central Valley valve gear, a can motor with a flywheel and PFM sound in a Varney Docksider. WOW!!! If he could do all of that way back then, certainly a TCS WOW or Econami would fit in Little Joe, especially if you change out that HUGE Varney motor with a decent can motor. If one wanted to of course.

Regards, Vic B.

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Bob Macklin macklinbob@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2016 1:33 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Kudos to Don

Ray,

A couple months ago I asked our local club about running a DC locomotive on their DCC layout. They thought it could be done.

Bu they don't permit it. Plus they told me they use code 83 rails and our old locomotives won't stay on the track.

You can't put DCC in a Varney Dockside, Roundhouse 0-6-0T, Mantua Booster, or Mantua General.

I'm not going back to DCC. I have a 2' by 4' diorama. No need for DCC.

The club I was in Sacramento is now like the one here in Tacoma.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2016 9:01 PM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Kudos to Don

Interesting! I wouldn't know about that, Bob. I don't have (and don't want) any form of DCC. So then, from what you're describing, if a club has DiGiTrax (or possibly even another form of DCC that works similarly), there's no good reason to install DCC in a vintage loco to be able to operate it on such a layout. Thanks for the enlightenment.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/16/2016 8:41:29 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

I don't know about the other DCC systems but with DiGiTrax you can run ONE DC locomotive with the DCC locomotives.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2016 3:22 PM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Kudos to Don

John,

The terms "okay" and "vintage" appear to be almost interchangeable in many of these posts. If the only way to operate a vintage piece on a club layout is to install DCC (while still retaining DC capacity), my take on it is that it positively is okay -- but it's no longer strictly a vintage piece simply because DCC is not vintage. Other modelers can the appreciate how a vintage piece appears even though it's not being operated as one.

As for (Mike) Bauers' posts, I enjoy every one of them I see. Mike has certain style all his own. I only have to start reading one of them and I already know who wrote it before scrolling down to see who signed it. BTW, I regret having forgot to sign my last post -- something that I almost never refrain from doing. My apologies to all. I saw my signature was missing only after I clicked on send and before it actually went. Too late to change things then.

No, I missed seeing those $215 Sharks. Hard to figure, when I know I must have seen at least a dozen or more over the past year going for an average of from $25 -- $30 to no more than $40 each. Why wouldn't this buyer try buying one of those when he had the chance? Shows that some modelers don't know the true value of stuff they bid on, or they have deep enough pockets to allow them not to care.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/16/2016 9:40:57 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Don,

I for one agree with you wholeheartedly. I do accept the idea of repowering as that adds to the idea of operating vintage models.

I do tend to vacillate on DCC as some of us would like to be able to operate our precious antiques on club or other layouts where DCC is the operating system. I feel as long as the ability to run on DC is not compromised it is probably okay.

That said I do draw a line at sound, at least anything digital. If someone happens to have one of the old Mantua Syncro-Steam Sound locos, well go for it.

This is my favorite group and one that I am delighted whenever I see new postings, even from Bauers’ (said in jest). You have done an excellent job of controlling content without becoming dictatorial. Keep up the great work.

BTW, did any of you notice the sale on eBay of an AB set of Mantua Sharks for $215.00. This was an auction that I was following but once it got to $60.00, two bidders when nuts. Heck, I couldn’t afford the $60.00 level. A nice set for sure, both powered and in totally bare metal, original boxes and all but the price is ridiculous. For a $50.00 item no less.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2016 12:57 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] WSJ article on end of the line for model trains

I've been letting things drift a bit, but yes, per when I started the group, per our original statement DCC is definitely off topic. While I didn't say it I am getting concerned about reproductions too, small parts yes, but when members start talking about reproducing complete cars or locomotives, I do get concerned. The whole idea is to take the vintage pieces and RUN them.

I can't get really excited about things like motor conversions, because this is for people that OPERATE their models as well as admire them on the shelf, and upgrading things like trucks, couplers, etc, is fine, where do you draw the line?

Let's try and get back to what we were originally about, collecting and running the great vintage pieces of our youth.

Don

Don Dellmann
Contact me at: don.dellmann@...
See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

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Group: vintageHO	Message: 25092	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 2/17/2016
Subject: Re: Central Valley Trucks?

Hi Chuck,

They clean up, sort of, and not easily. If you don't mind discoloration and you feel that is a good price, go for it, but they will have some discoloration. The appearance does not affect their performance, unless the foam corroded the axle ends. Unlikely, but possible.

My personal feeling is that for freight trucks, I would go with Kadee rather than discolored Central Valley. For passenger trucks, I would bite the bullet and go with Central Valley, assuming a decent price and live with the discoloration.

Regards Vic B.

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of ckinzer@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2016 12:06 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Central Valley Trucks?

A recent eBay auction for 40 (!) pairs of Central Valley freight trucks said this:

“The inside foam is disintegrating that you can clean off the wheelsets with rubbing alcohol without any damage to the metal wheels and frames.”

Is that true? Do they clean up that easily? Brass locomotives surely don’t.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Windows Mail

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: ‎Wednesday‎, ‎February‎ ‎17‎, ‎2016 ‎8‎:‎59‎ ‎AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

I did have that problem too!

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: ckinzer@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2016 8:53 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Central Valley Trucks?

Another problem is the little pieces of packing foam adhering to the trucks. Just like the problem with some brass engines packed away for too long with foam in direct contact.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Windows Mail

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: ‎Wednesday‎, ‎February‎ ‎17‎, ‎2016 ‎8‎:‎41‎ ‎AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

I had some Central Valley cars with the nice CV trucks. And I had a lot of other cars that had CV trucks. I also had many sets of CV trucks in their original boxes.

These were all built in the 60's and 70's. When I sold them 15 years ago I found many of the falling apart.

In later years I converted to Kadee trucks and I had no problems with them.

But the CV trucks (when working) always seemed to roll better that even the Kadees.

I have seen NIB CV trucks on eBay but I have been reluctant to buying them because of the problems I was having with then 20 years ago.

Comments?

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25093	From: Bob Macklin	Date: 2/17/2016
Subject: Re: Kudos to Don

Mike,

For my small 2' by 4' layout all I need is an under the table speaker!

But right not I am not worried about sound and I don't need (can't afford) DCC.

I have 4 1886 Labelle passenger cars. I am looking for a Varney (or Bowser) 4-6-0 Casey Jones for them. I do have a Roundhouse Harriman 4-6-0 I can use but I want to leave it lettered for the SP. That train takes up my full MAIN LINE and goes NO WHERE!

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: Mike Bauers mwbauers55@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2016 10:41 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Kudos to Don

Bob,

I agree, screw that club and their dead-heads. Some people you just have to leave alone.

Still, the best part of DCC is the quality of the sound.

To do the same in pure DC you need to get one of the vintage PFM sound-control systems, or use the same pick-up method that it does, to pipe sound into the locomotives.

If you remember the pickup, it's a small coil and a pair of small caps feeding the on-model speaker, and blocking the power line noise.

When this system was first featured in The Hobby, I believe in the '30's, seen in MR, the sound feed was an ordinary sound-out cable from a phonograph.

I believe with the same pair of caps and the coil/ choke on the phono line connected to the tracks.

Except for a synchronized exhaust on a model steamer, the same can be done today with any audio sound source. One of those MRC trackside sound generators can be used like this to pipe in the sounds to the models.

Remembering this makes me want to try it with one of those sugar-cube smartphone speakers. It makes for a package about the size of two thumbnails about 1/8-inch thick.

It's something I can play with to see how well it can work today. Maybe with a sound-out port of a smartphone using that steam train sound app I have, or just a radio feed, or a recording of the old Lionel station announcement record.

The things one gets over the years from swap meets. I do have that record and it would be a hoot to make use of it like that.

And so I've rambled..... And wonder like you, why move to DCC when we can easily add sound to DC.

Mike Bauers
Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 17, 2016, at 10:05 AM, "Bob Macklin macklinbob@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

The last version of the Varney Dockside produced by Bowser did have a can motor.

And NWSL does produce a repower kit with new gears and a can motor for the Dockside.

But with the ATTITUDE I got from the local club I don't have a need to change.

I have almost all the parts(new from Bowser) to assemble a new Dockside. One item that is missing is the motor. I was planning to change the gears to NWSL gears so I might just as well use the complete NWSL repower kit.

But for now no need to go to DCC.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: Victor Bitleris bitlerisvj@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2016 7:24 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Kudos to Don

Hi Bob,

I agree DCC would not have much value on a 2 ft by 4 ft diorama. However, way back in the 1970's I think, Earl Smallshaw had a friend install Central Valley valve gear, a can motor with a flywheel and PFM sound in a Varney Docksider. WOW!!! If he could do all of that way back then, certainly a TCS WOW or Econami would fit in Little Joe, especially if you change out that HUGE Varney motor with a decent can motor. If one wanted to of course.

Regards, Vic B.

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Bob Macklin macklinbob@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2016 1:33 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Kudos to Don

Ray,

A couple months ago I asked our local club about running a DC locomotive on their DCC layout. They thought it could be done.

Bu they don't permit it. Plus they told me they use code 83 rails and our old locomotives won't stay on the track.

You can't put DCC in a Varney Dockside, Roundhouse 0-6-0T, Mantua Booster, or Mantua General.

I'm not going back to DCC. I have a 2' by 4' diorama. No need for DCC.

The club I was in Sacramento is now like the one here in Tacoma.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2016 9:01 PM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Kudos to Don

Interesting! I wouldn't know about that, Bob. I don't have (and don't want) any form of DCC. So then, from what you're describing, if a club has DiGiTrax (or possibly even another form of DCC that works similarly), there's no good reason to install DCC in a vintage loco to be able to operate it on such a layout. Thanks for the enlightenment.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/16/2016 8:41:29 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

I don't know about the other DCC systems but with DiGiTrax you can run ONE DC locomotive with the DCC locomotives.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2016 3:22 PM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Kudos to Don

John,

The terms "okay" and "vintage" appear to be almost interchangeable in many of these posts. If the only way to operate a vintage piece on a club layout is to install DCC (while still retaining DC capacity), my take on it is that it positively is okay -- but it's no longer strictly a vintage piece simply because DCC is not vintage. Other modelers can the appreciate how a vintage piece appears even though it's not being operated as one.

As for (Mike) Bauers' posts, I enjoy every one of them I see. Mike has certain style all his own. I only have to start reading one of them and I already know who wrote it before scrolling down to see who signed it. BTW, I regret having forgot to sign my last post -- something that I almost never refrain from doing. My apologies to all. I saw my signature was missing only after I clicked on send and before it actually went. Too late to change things then.

No, I missed seeing those $215 Sharks. Hard to figure, when I know I must have seen at least a dozen or more over the past year going for an average of from $25 -- $30 to no more than $40 each. Why wouldn't this buyer try buying one of those when he had the chance? Shows that some modelers don't know the true value of stuff they bid on, or they have deep enough pockets to allow them not to care.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/16/2016 9:40:57 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Don,

I for one agree with you wholeheartedly. I do accept the idea of repowering as that adds to the idea of operating vintage models.

I do tend to vacillate on DCC as some of us would like to be able to operate our precious antiques on club or other layouts where DCC is the operating system. I feel as long as the ability to run on DC is not compromised it is probably okay.

That said I do draw a line at sound, at least anything digital. If someone happens to have one of the old Mantua Syncro-Steam Sound locos, well go for it.

This is my favorite group and one that I am delighted whenever I see new postings, even from Bauers’ (said in jest). You have done an excellent job of controlling content without becoming dictatorial. Keep up the great work.

BTW, did any of you notice the sale on eBay of an AB set of Mantua Sharks for $215.00. This was an auction that I was following but once it got to $60.00, two bidders when nuts. Heck, I couldn’t afford the $60.00 level. A nice set for sure, both powered and in totally bare metal, original boxes and all but the price is ridiculous. For a $50.00 item no less.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2016 12:57 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] WSJ article on end of the line for model trains

I've been letting things drift a bit, but yes, per when I started the group, per our original statement DCC is definitely off topic. While I didn't say it I am getting concerned about reproductions too, small parts yes, but when members start talking about reproducing complete cars or locomotives, I do get concerned. The whole idea is to take the vintage pieces and RUN them.

I can't get really excited about things like motor conversions, because this is for people that OPERATE their models as well as admire them on the shelf, and upgrading things like trucks, couplers, etc, is fine, where do you draw the line?

Let's try and get back to what we were originally about, collecting and running the great vintage pieces of our youth.

Don

Don Dellmann
Contact me at: don.dellmann@...
See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

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Group: vintageHO	Message: 25094	From: Bob Macklin	Date: 2/17/2016
Subject: Re: Central Valley Trucks?

I did have a good collection of CV passenger truck but some had the same problems as the freight trucks.

Now I use PSC brass passenger trucks. They are more expensive but I have had no problems with them.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: Victor Bitleris bitlerisvj@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2016 10:56 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Central Valley Trucks?

Hi Chuck,

They clean up, sort of, and not easily. If you don't mind discoloration and you feel that is a good price, go for it, but they will have some discoloration. The appearance does not affect their performance, unless the foam corroded the axle ends. Unlikely, but possible.

My personal feeling is that for freight trucks, I would go with Kadee rather than discolored Central Valley. For passenger trucks, I would bite the bullet and go with Central Valley, assuming a decent price and live with the discoloration.

Regards Vic B.

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of ckinzer@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2016 12:06 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Central Valley Trucks?

A recent eBay auction for 40 (!) pairs of Central Valley freight trucks said this:

The inside foam is disintegrating that you can clean off the wheelsets with rubbing alcohol without any damage to the metal wheels and frames.

Is that true? Do they clean up that easily? Brass locomotives surely dont.

Charles E. Chuck Kinzer

Sent from Windows Mail

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: ‎Wednesday‎, ‎February‎ ‎17‎, ‎2016 ‎8‎:‎59‎ ‎AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

I did have that problem too!

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: ckinzer@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2016 8:53 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Central Valley Trucks?

Another problem is the little pieces of packing foam adhering to the trucks. Just like the problem with some brass engines packed away for too long with foam in direct contact.

Charles E. Chuck Kinzer

Sent from Windows Mail

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: ‎Wednesday‎, ‎February‎ ‎17‎, ‎2016 ‎8‎:‎41‎ ‎AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

I had some Central Valley cars with the nice CV trucks. And I had a lot of other cars that had CV trucks. I also had many sets of CV trucks in their original boxes.

These were all built in the 60's and 70's. When I sold them 15 years ago I found many of the falling apart.

In later years I converted to Kadee trucks and I had no problems with them.

But the CV trucks (when working) always seemed to roll better that even the Kadees.

I have seen NIB CV trucks on eBay but I have been reluctant to buying them because of the problems I was having with then 20 years ago.

Comments?

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25095	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 2/17/2016
Subject: Re: Kudos to Don

Don!

Well said!

I love the vintage stuff! Wish I had the time or space to run them right now though! However, unlike most of the other collectors out there, none of it is from my youth... I figure I have another 30-50 years left to enjoy this stuff! Hopefully *:) happy

Sean

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]

Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2016 12:57 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] WSJ article on end of the line for model trains

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25096	From: Dale Smith	Date: 2/17/2016
Subject: Re: Ken Kidder plantion loco

I had an issue similar to that on a Gilbert Industrial switcher. Previous owner had removed brushes on motor and put them back with the hot wired brush connected to the grounded spring. It might pay to check the motor wiring.

Dale Smith

On 2/17/2016 9:38 AM, Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... [vintageHO] wrote:

I got a great deal on a Bowser Trolley once because the previous owner had done exactly that! :-D

Don

On 2/17/2016 9:35 AM, Mike Bauers mwbauers55@... [vintageHO] wrote:

Are you sure the previous owner didn't accidentally flip the axle during assembly ?

Mike Bauers
Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 17, 2016, at 1:51 AM, "jim_irene.more@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

I have a Ken Kidder 0-4-0 Plantation loco that has a short between the wheel and the chassis. I am having a problem removing the wheel to check it out. Can any one assist me I have had it since the Early 60's and I got it second hand, so do not know how old it is.

Jim M

__._,_.__

-- Don Dellmann Contact me at: don.dellmann@... See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25097	From: Ken Starcher	Date: 2/17/2016
Subject: Re: Kudos to Don

Just acquiring the tool doesn't mean one acquires the knowledge and skill to operate it effectively. Turning wheels without overheating them is a problem too. Chucking up drivers is tough. All there is to hold onto is the tread of the wheel, unless you use the axle which may not be very strong. Even then, if you're working on a steam engine, you now have to figure out how to quarter it. That's a lot of learning to do. Not many clubs are large enough to have people with those skills.

Ken A Starcher 1570 Meriline St Cuyahoga Falls OH 44221 330.920.8035

--------------------------------------------

On Wed, 2/17/16, Mike Bauers mwbauers55@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Kudos to Don
To: "vintageHO@yahoogroups.com" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Wednesday, February 17, 2016, 2:48 AM

Philistines !!!

It sounds like no member of the club is savvy enough to
reduce the flanges on those old models to RP-25.

I suppose they don't have a resident craftsman that owns
a hobby lathe, nor know of one outside of the club
membership, nor of anyone that uses a local Makers Club that
would have access to that groups tools.

I being one that did my first such conversion in 1975, still
am surprised how even now, so few RR models have the
tool.

Mike Bauers

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 17, 2016, at 12:33 AM, "Bob Macklin
macklinbob@... [vintageHO]"
<vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

>

> Bu they don't permit it. Plus they told me they use
code 83 rails and our old locomotives won't stay on the
track.

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Group: vintageHO	Message: 25098	From: Dale Smith	Date: 2/17/2016
Subject: Re: Vintage sound (was Kudos to Don)

This is the same principle on which the A.C. Gilbert "Air Chime" whistle was based, but with a much limited 600 cycle sound source from a vibrator. It was also used in the HO line. As most Gilbert collectors will agree, the sound was less than good.

I have seen patents for systems such as you describe, some even including a hand cranked grooved cylinder to produce pre-recorded sounds.

Interesting to play around with though. Maybe with better sound sources it could be made to sound halfway decent. I think the key is in the capacitor - choke circuitry.

Dale Smith

On 2/17/2016 10:41 AM, Mike Bauers mwbauers55@... [vintageHO] wrote:

To do the same in pure DC you need to get one of the vintage PFM sound-control systems, or use the same pick-up method that it does, to pipe sound into the locomotives.

If you remember the pickup, it's a small coil and a pair of small caps feeding the on-model speaker, and blocking the power line noise.

When this system was first featured in The Hobby, I believe in the '30's, seen in MR, the sound feed was an ordinary sound-out cable from a phonograph.

I believe with the same pair of caps and the coil/ choke on the phono line connected to the tracks.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25099	From: Ken Starcher	Date: 2/17/2016
Subject: Re: Kudos to Don

I've noticed that some companies are making something called a "dual mode" decoder that allows DC and DCC operation. I haven't looked into yet but it may be an option.

Ken A Starcher 1570 Meriline St Cuyahoga Falls OH 44221 330.920.8035

--------------------------------------------

On Wed, 2/17/16, Bob Macklin macklinbob@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Kudos to Don
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, February 17, 2016, 11:05 AM

The last version of the Varney
Dockside produced by Bowser did
have a can motor.

And NWSL does produce a repower kit with
new gears and a can
motor for the Dockside.

But with the ATTITUDE I got from the
local club I don't have a
need to change.

I have almost all the parts(new from
Bowser) to assemble a new
Dockside. One item that is missing is the motor. I was
planning to change the
gears to NWSL gears so I might just as well use the complete
NWSL repower kit.

But for now no need to go to
DCC.

Bob Macklin
Seattle,
Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From:
Victor Bitleris
bitlerisvj@... [vintageHO]
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday,
February 17, 2016 7:24
AM
Subject: Re:
[vintageHO] Kudos to
Don

Hi Bob,

I agree DCC would not have much value on a 2 ft by 4 ft
diorama.
However, way back in the 1970's I think, Earl
Smallshaw had a friend install
Central Valley valve gear, a can motor with a flywheel and
PFM sound in a
Varney Docksider. WOW!!! If he could do all of that
way back then,
certainly a TCS WOW or Econami would fit in Little Joe,
especially if
you change out that HUGE Varney motor with a decent can
motor. If one
wanted to of course.

Regards, Vic B.

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
<vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Bob Macklin
macklinbob@...
[vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday,
February 17, 2016 1:33 AM
To:
vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject:
Re: [vintageHO] Kudos to
Don

Ray,

A couple months ago I asked our local
club about running a
DC locomotive on their DCC layout. They thought it could
be done.

Bu they don't permit it. Plus they
told me they use code 83
rails and our old locomotives won't stay on the
track.

You can't put DCC in a Varney
Dockside, Roundhouse 0-6-0T,
Mantua Booster, or Mantua General.

I'm not going back to DCC. I have
a 2' by 4' diorama. No
need for DCC.

The club I was in Sacramento is now
like the one here in
Tacoma.

Bob Macklin
Seattle,
Wa.

----- Original Message -----
From: eriepacific@...
[vintageHO]
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2016 9:01
PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Kudos to Don

Interesting! I wouldn't know about that,
Bob. I don't have
(and don't want) any form of DCC. So then, from
what you're
describing, if a club has DiGiTrax (or possibly even
another form of DCC
that works similarly), there's no good reason to
install DCC in a vintage
loco to be able to operate it on such a layout. Thanks
for the
enlightenment.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/16/2016 8:41:29 P.M. Eastern
Standard Time,
vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:
I don't know about the other
DCC systems but with DiGiTrax you can run ONE DC
locomotive with the DCC
locomotives.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----
From: eriepacific@...

[vintageHO]
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2016 3:22
PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Kudos to
Don

John,

The terms "okay" and
"vintage" appear to be almost
interchangeable in many of these posts. If the
only way to operate
a vintage piece on a club layout is to install DCC
(while still
retaining DC capacity), my take on it is that it
positively is okay --
but it's no longer strictly a vintage piece
simply because DCC is not
vintage. Other modelers can the appreciate how a
vintage piece
appears even though it's not being operated as
one.

As for (Mike) Bauers' posts,
I enjoy every one of them
I see. Mike has certain style all his own. I
only have to
start reading one of them and I already know who
wrote it before
scrolling down to see who signed it. BTW, I regret
having
forgot to sign my last post -- something that I
almost never
refrain from doing. My apologies to all. I
saw my
signature was missing only after I clicked on send
and before it
actually went. Too late to change things
then.

No, I missed seeing those $215
Sharks. Hard to
figure, when I know I must have seen at least a
dozen or more over the
past year going for an average of from $25 -- $30
to no more than
$40 each. Why wouldn't this buyer try
buying one of those
when he had the chance? Shows that some modelers
don't know the
true value of stuff they bid on, or they have deep
enough pockets to
allow them not to care.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/16/2016 9:40:57 A.M.
Eastern Standard Time,
vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Don,
I for one agree
with
you wholeheartedly. I do accept the idea of
repowering as that adds to
the idea of operating vintage models.
I do tend to
vacillate
on DCC as some of us would like to be able to
operate our precious
antiques on club or other layouts where DCC is the
operating system. I
feel as long as the ability to run on DC is not
compromised it is
probably okay.
That said I do
draw a
line at sound, at least anything digital. If
someone happens to have
one of the old Mantua Syncro-Steam Sound locos,
well go for
it.
This is my
favorite
group and one that I am delighted whenever I see
new postings, even
from Bauers’ (said in jest). You have done an
excellent job of
controlling content without becoming dictatorial.
Keep up the great
work.
BTW, did any of
you
notice the sale on eBay of an AB set of Mantua
Sharks for $215.00.
This was an auction that I was following but once
it got to $60.00,
two bidders when nuts. Heck, I couldn’t afford
the $60.00 level. A
nice set for sure, both powered and in totally
bare metal, original
boxes and all but the price is ridiculous. For a
$50.00 item no
less.
John
Hagen

From:
vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]

Sent: Tuesday, February
16, 2016 12:57 AM
To:
vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] WSJ
article on end of the line for model
trains

I've been letting
things drift a bit, but yes,
per when I started the group, per our original
statement DCC is
definitely off topic. While I didn't say it
I am getting
concerned about reproductions too, small parts
yes, but when members
start talking about reproducing complete cars or
locomotives, I do get
concerned. The whole idea is to take the vintage
pieces and RUN
them.

I can't
get really excited about things like motor
conversions, because this is for people that
OPERATE their models as
well as admire them on the shelf, and upgrading
things like trucks,
couplers, etc, is fine, where do you draw the
line?

Let's try
and get back to what we were originally about,
collecting and running
the great vintage pieces of our youth.

Don

Don Dellmann

Contact me at: don.dellmann@...

See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/

Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

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Group: vintageHO	Message: 25100	From: Bob Macklin	Date: 2/17/2016
Subject: Re: Kudos to Don

In my case I do have a Unimat and I do know how to do it. I also have a full set of the NWSL tools for working on wheels.

But I still don't want to mess with modifying HO drivers unless it is really necessary.

I have built complete HO diesel power trucks. I'm looking at getting some Varney diesels and putting NWSL wheel sets and gears in them.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: Ken Starcher ohiocanal@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2016 1:24 PM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Kudos to Don

Just acquiring the tool doesn't mean one acquires the knowledge and skill to operate it effectively. Turning wheels without overheating them is a problem too. Chucking up drivers is tough. All there is to hold onto is the tread of the wheel, unless you use the axle which may not be very strong. Even then, if you're working on a steam engine, you now have to figure out how to quarter it. That's a lot of learning to do. Not many clubs are large enough to have people with those skills.

Ken A Starcher 1570 Meriline St Cuyahoga Falls OH 44221 330.920.8035

--------------------------------------------
On Wed, 2/17/16, Mike Bauers mwbauers55@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Kudos to Don
To: "vintageHO@yahoogroups.com" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Wednesday, February 17, 2016, 2:48 AM

Philistines !!!

It sounds like no member of the club is savvy enough to
reduce the flanges on those old models to RP-25.

I suppose they don't have a resident craftsman that owns
a hobby lathe, nor know of one outside of the club
membership, nor of anyone that uses a local Makers Club that
would have access to that groups tools.

I being one that did my first such conversion in 1975, still
am surprised how even now, so few RR models have the
tool.

Mike Bauers

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 17, 2016, at 12:33 AM, "Bob Macklin
macklinbob@... [vintageHO]"
<vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

>

> Bu they don't permit it. Plus they told me they use
code 83 rails and our old locomotives won't stay on the
track.

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Group: vintageHO	Message: 25101	From: John Hagen	Date: 2/17/2016
Subject: Re: Kudos to Don

Yes, I recall that loco. There was an article in one of the model railroad magazines.

It was quite q feat back then.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2016 9:24 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Kudos to Don

Hi Bob,

Regards, Vic B.

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Group: vintageHO	Message: 25102	From: John Hagen	Date: 2/17/2016
Subject: Re: Mantua Sharks

Don,

Mantua produced two version of the diecast Sharks. The second version did not have the pillar and is also distinguishable by the two vent openings in the roof at the rear and the two “notches” in the sills also at the rear. Those were for mounting the later power truck, which did not use the pressed metal subframe way up in the top of the shell. These were the ones used by Hobbytown. If you can find a Hobbytown Shark nose drive the frame will have cast in blocks that correspond with the notches in the shell. Hobbytown F unit drives and/or universal drives do not.

Some of the Shark castings had solid pilots. I am not sure of when or why but the very first editions did have open pilots. I am looking at one right now. I know I have a couple of the later Sharks with the notches but don’t recall if they are open or not. I gotta have at least 6 of the locos/shells but only the one is not buried in all my stacks of train stuff. I have a decent size bedroom stuffed with trains, mostly ancient, old, antique, vintage or, as my wife would say, crap. Also in there are two computers, four printers, a roll top desk, a workbench (both heaped with cra ….. er, stuff), a flat bed scanner, various tool and storage cabinets, a hutch and not a small number of diecast automobiles of various scales, albeit only a half dozen 1/18 as they are huge and I sold all but the best several years ago.

I gotta get a grip on this.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2016 11:39 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua Sharks

In the early 60's Hobbytown actually sold the Mantua bodies with Hobbytown drives, I would guess they did the same thing.

Don

On 2/17/2016 9:37 AM, Mike Bauers mwbauers55@... [vintageHO] wrote:

I'm removing my pillars to put modern drives in.

Mike Bauers
Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 16, 2016, at 6:58 PM, "fvh2@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Now I have a problem. A couple of years ago I gathered up a bunch of die-cast Shark shells to build up. I have both Mantua and (I think) Hobbytown A's and a couple of B's. The plan was to use Hobbytown drives mostly rebuilt from used parts on hand. One big problem is the huge pillar in the center of the Mantua shells: do I remove it or try to find Mantua parts. I really don't like the later Mantua/Tyco motor trucks at all. I guess the question is restored clunkers or non-original Resto-Rods. Or just leave them out behind the back shop.
Fred Holladay

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Group: vintageHO	Message: 25103	From: Ken Starcher	Date: 2/17/2016
Subject: Re: Kudos to Don

I can see where the guard rails might be a problem on turnouts and crossovers. They might be tighter. It would seem that rerailers might be problematic also. I have on loco whose flanges "bounce" on the simulated tie plates.

Ken A Starcher 1570 Meriline St Cuyahoga Falls OH 44221 330.920.8035

--------------------------------------------

On Wed, 2/17/16, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Kudos to Don
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, February 17, 2016, 8:04 AM

Art,

Perhaps the older H0 locos have problems
operating through
certain manufacturers' Code 83 turnouts and crossovers
(?), since it's
obviously not the track itself that they have problems
with.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/17/2016 6:56:41 A.M. Eastern
Standard Time,
vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

I'm a late arrival in this
discussion, but I wanna just mention that I have a small
HO layout that uses
code 83 track, and it handles all my Bowser, Penn Line,
and other makes of DC
locos just fine (except for Challengers and Big Boys on
the 22 in curves). And
it easily converts to DCC which I have installed--though I
only own 1 (one)
DCC loco. Not a DCC fan here but did that in order to be
able to say that
I have a DCC layout and can claim to be a contemporary
modeler if necessary!
Plus, I wanted to keep up with developments in the hobby
to some extent at
least.
Art
Waite

In a message dated 2/17/2016 2:48:02 A.M. Eastern
Standard Time,
vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:
Philistines !!!

It sounds like no member of the club is
savvy enough to reduce the flanges on those old models
to RP-25.

I
suppose they don't have a resident craftsman that
owns a hobby lathe, nor
know of one outside of the club membership, nor of
anyone that uses a local
Makers Club that would have access to that groups
tools.

I being one
that did my first such conversion in 1975, still am
surprised how even now,
so few RR models have the tool.

Mike Bauers
Sent from my
iPhone

> On Feb 17, 2016, at 12:33 AM, "Bob
Macklin
macklinbob@... [vintageHO]"
<vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
wrote:
>
> Bu
they don't permit it. Plus they told me they use
code 83 rails and our old locomotives won't stay on
the
track.

------------------------------------
Posted by: Mike
Bauers
<mwbauers55@...>
------------------------------------

------------------------------------

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Group: vintageHO	Message: 25104	From: Ken Starcher	Date: 2/17/2016
Subject: Re: Kudos to Don

In my opinion, NWSL makes some really nice stuff.

Ken A Starcher 1570 Meriline St Cuyahoga Falls OH 44221 330.920.8035

--------------------------------------------

On Wed, 2/17/16, Bob Macklin macklinbob@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Kudos to Don
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, February 17, 2016, 4:37 PM

In my case I do have a Unimat and I
do know how to do it. I
also have a full set of the NWSL tools for working on
wheels.

But I still don't want to mess with
modifying HO drivers
unless it is really necessary.

I have built complete HO diesel power
trucks. I'm looking at
getting some Varney diesels and putting NWSL wheel sets and
gears in
them.

Bob Macklin
Seattle,
Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From:
Ken Starcher ohiocanal@...
[vintageHO]
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday,
February 17, 2016 1:24
PM
Subject: Re:
[vintageHO] Kudos to
Don

Just acquiring the tool doesn't mean one acquires
the knowledge and skill
to operate it effectively. Turning wheels without
overheating them is a
problem too. Chucking up drivers is tough. All there is to
hold onto is the
tread of the wheel, unless you use the axle which may not
be very strong. Even
then, if you're working on a steam engine, you now
have to figure out how to
quarter it. That's a lot of learning to do. Not many
clubs are large enough to
have people with those skills.

Ken A Starcher 1570 Meriline St Cuyahoga
Falls OH 44221
330.920.8035

--------------------------------------------
On Wed,
2/17/16, Mike Bauers mwbauers55@... [vintageHO]
<vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Kudos

to Don
To:
"vintageHO@yahoogroups.com"
<vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Date:
Wednesday, February 17, 2016, 2:48
AM

Philistines
!!!

It sounds like no member of the club is savvy
enough
to
reduce the flanges on those old models
to RP-25.

I
suppose they don't have a resident craftsman that
owns
a hobby lathe, nor
know of one outside of the club
membership, nor of anyone that uses a local
Makers Club that
would have access to that
groups tools.

I
being one that did my first such conversion in 1975,
still
am surprised how
even now, so few RR models have the
tool.

Mike
Bauers

Sent from my
iPhone

> On Feb 17, 2016, at
12:33 AM, "Bob Macklin
macklinbob@...
[vintageHO]"
<vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

>

> Bu they don't
permit it. Plus they told me they use
code
83
rails and our old locomotives won't stay on
the
track.

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Group: vintageHO	Message: 25105	From: chfengr.elkhornforge	Date: 2/17/2016
Subject: Re: Kudos to Don

Don - You have my sympathy. There you stand with a shovel hoping to hold back the incoming tide.
A few of us, me included, straddle two worlds of hobby interests, model trains and special interest automobiles. If like Sean we've been at it for a while we've seen how the automotive world has dealt with their evolution of hobby interests. What it amounted to was the development of "islands" of common interest some closer together than others. Their real key is keeping each island alive and at a manageable size while still leaving the shorelines open enough to allow the kind of cross fertilization and evolution to insure its vitality in a changing world.
Yahoo hobby groups are little islands of common interest. The group owner gets to manage it to fit his vision. If he chooses to build 20 foot seawalls around the island that is his choice. On the other hand if he chooses to ignore the shorelines and occasional high tides all manner of flotsam, harmless, destructive, valuable or some combination of the three will land and perhaps change things. Best to have well managed harbors that invite commerce as well as volunteers willing to keep the beaches clean. What is important for the island owner is to keep the island alive and at a level of development that he has the ability to manage. Otherwise it will one way or another disappear.
Ed Weldon

---In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, <a69mustang4me@...> wrote :
Don! Well said!
I love the vintage stuff!... I figure I have another 30-50 years left to enjoy this stuff! Hopefully
Sean

I've been letting things drift a bit, .......Let's try and get back to what we were originally about, collecting and running the great vintage pieces of our youth. Don Dellmann

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25106	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 2/17/2016
Subject: Re: WSJ article on end of the line for model trains

Bob,

First, I'll answer your last question. You need all that stuff for when you ship cars (loads and empties) off line and receive loads at your interchange. You'll then have a fresh batch of cars on the layout that weren't there the day before.

Besides the manufacturers you mentioned, search out Globe metal cars and MDC/Roundhouse metal cars -- at least their triple hoppers (5 different roads). Their early box cars, reefers, heavy duty flat cars and cabooses were all-metal too, but cast metal, same as the triple hoppers. Can't pull too many of those around with a Little Joe. Roundhouse also made high-side and low-side 40' metal gondolas. I'm sure you'll be pleased with Athearn metal box cars, reefers (and tank cars). To me, they appear more closely to prototype dimensions than do Varney or Globe, with the exception of Globe tank cars. Don't forget Thomas metal tank cars either.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/17/2016 12:01:04 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Ray,

I have purchased several NIB Silver Streak kits produced by Walters's on eBay. I have also seen the Ulrich kits produced by Walther's but I have not bought any of them yet.

I have been buying Varney kits with the metal bodies. Both with the wood floors (pre 1955) and with the plastic floors (post 1955). I have been seeing some NIB Varney kits that are the older paper (cardboard) sides. I hope to try some of these.

There is so much Athearn stuff it is hard to find the early Athearn metal cars but I would be interested in them also.

With a 2' by 4' layout what do I need all this stuff for?

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2016 8:35 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] WSJ article on end of the line for model trains

Bob,

On eBay, where you're buying your other stuff. Walthers produced 'repro' of Silver Streak and Ulrich in the 1970's and into the 1980's. Could have even started reproducing some in the late 1960's, I can't recall off the top of my head. Ye Ole Huff and Puff produced a lot of different "repros" of earlier manufacturers' kits, like Laconia, Binkley and some others. They're all long out of production though; nothing that I know of like these being produced today. Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/17/2016 10:31:34 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Where can I buy Varney, Mantua, Silver Streak, or Ulrich "REPRO" kits?

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2016 3:56 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] WSJ article on end of the line for model trains

If the object of this straightforward explanation is to show that such DIY models are still "vintage," it should be noted that while the construction of these models may be straight out of the 1930's, they are actually being made today in 2016. It's the year that models are produced as being part of why they're vintage and not the year they were reproduced by any other method or materials -- even if these methods and material were exactly the same as the original models.

There are duplicates of antique automobiles being produced today. They are not considered antiques by any stretch of the imagination, even though they mirror the same image, but they're referred to as "Reproductions." Again, absolutely nothing wrong with reproducing model trains, since the Real McCoy can't always be obtained -- and at least the modeler can enjoy what the original had looked like -- but it can't be considered a vintage model. It's great that there are still Paul Moore blueprints around, to be able to construct copies of his original models and yes, "Vintage Tributes" might be one term to describe them.

Just to briefly get back to references of antique automobiles that Larry and I were discussing, while a 20 or 25 year old car may be considered "antique" in Illinois and New Jersey respectively, this would date them only to 1996 and 1991 -- hardly looking at all like the antique cars we're all familiar with as cars of this description, yet old enough to be considered as such by these states. As I've always been accustomed to, Antique cars have always been those that were manufactured pre-WW II. All other older cars not going back quite that far, but still considered by most states to qualify for obtaining antique license (registration) plates/tags are considered as Classic Cars by most owners of them.

While this group is referring to these older H0 models as being vintage, we're still not describing them as antique -- even though many of them are pre-War (and are obviously antiques as we would consider the term). For furniture to be an antique, it's required that it must be at least 100 years old and 50 years old qualifies it as vintage. So by this, it can be seen that auto or furniture designations have no close correlation with model trains although the time frames are similar -- at least for vintage H0 -- where furniture going back to 1966 and earlier is vintage. By that standard though, none of us have any antique H0 unless we can find models produced in 1916 or before < g >.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/17/2016 12:40:39 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

A lot of them are 1920's and earlier cars. That's another sort of vintage.

Other than the tooling, the construction is straight out of 1930's MR construction articles, and the bulk of the material to be used is recent production of the same materials used then.

It's really just a DIY that mirrors the same period construction that was done with pre-printed scale RR cars as you can find in the pages of MR, where they printed some pages of full color billboard reefers. Instead of using one page to build the model, you do the cutting on a number of identical pages to build up 3d relief in one model made from a few copies of the same side.

In many cases the original vintage model had its chassis built of cut art-card or thin wood. Again you make use of the same material as the 1930's article. But cut with a different tool.

Rivets are done either in Varney ph otoReal printed fashion or die impressed. Again as it was done then.

While the projects are not stock remnants of early kit production; they are designed to be built as the early kits were with very similar materials.

Just precut with something other than the older die cutting tooling.

Perhaps Vintage Tributes would be a good defining term for the things?

Mike Bauers
Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 16, 2016, at 4:55 PM, "eriepacific@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Mike,

I can appreciate the fact that Paul Moore models and parts are virtually impossible to come by. Due to their continued popularity today -- when they can be found -- the remaining availability of any of these products are quite scarce and practically non-existent. I can understand wanting to reproduce them as 3-D products especially as this would very closely follow Paul's blueprints. There's nothing wrong with that, but if they were to be produced in this manner, they could hardly be called "vintage," even if Paul himself produced them today.

In a message dated 2/16/2016 7:53:59 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

I need to disagree to a degree.

I've long sought out Paul Moore traction, doodlebug, and passenger car kits.

Some years ago I got to see the remaining stock of his parts, un gathered kits, and production drawing masters. It was in a hobby shop after it was de-acquired from a private collector. It was in limbo as the new owner was simply holding on to the material with no intension of doing anything with it. I suppose it's all in the hands of some other collector by now.

I've got some of the kits I wanted. But they are very hard to come by and many that pop up are badly damaged by the building decades ago.

Over the years I've gathered several of Paul's well drawn catalog sheets and once found many of his blueprints that I was able to obtain.

Even one of the more specific kits I originally wanted back in 1968, found just a couple of &n bsp;years ago. About three months ago I was lucky enough to get one of his TMER&L planbooks in a small group of other plan books, along with some of the original Hi-F Athearn F7 drives used by some series of Paul's kits and plans.

Per his catalogs and drawings, he had some few hundred designs in limited production kits and plan books.the kits and parts are very rare these days from a one man venture that stopped operation about 1970.

So I'm in the situation that I either build in the fashion of Paul's work from his meant to be built from plan books or I'm not going to have his stuff to use.

Now that the largest gathering of his remaining stock is hidden away in the hands of a private collection, or disposed of as old trash; I'm left with options of making or not having.

I will not go the direction of not having after all these years of locating a few relics of his life's work.

His work included several plan books that were intended to be used to build according to those plans. His line drawing catalog sheets are reductions of similar plans. His plan books are duplicates of his blueprints he use to make the major parts of his kits and car sides. He would have those printed on the working stock material and then cut out those printed drawings as his kit parts.

Unlike other vintage model RR cast production, he had hand cut body panels as the bulk of his kits and offered parts.

Thus I have been incrementally creeping towards constructing those designs I've been wanting from what source material I've been able to find. P

Mike Bauers
Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 16, 2016, at 5:55 AM, "Dave Audley audleydave@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

When I was working for Bob H. at Athabasca Scale Models, we often talked about how

many ASM kits were proabably stacked on shelves waiting to be built! We didn't very

often see finished models, and we offered free shirts & T-shirts for photos of finished kits!

Dave Audley

On Tuesday, February 16, 2016 3:56 AM, "eriepacific@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

For that matter, what does 3-D printing of models and laser cutting of their parts have anything to do with vintage HO, except perhaps to copy the older models in replacing them with new? Might be a way of reproducing old parts that can no longer be found, but reproducing whole models in this manner is not vintage as I see it. While the topic is obviously interesting to some, it really has no place here.

Ray W.

In a message dated 2/16/2016 1:57:40 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

I've been letting things drift a bit, but yes, per when I started the group, per our original statement DCC is definitely off topic. While I didn't say it I am getting concerned about reproductions too, small parts yes, but when members start talking about reproducing complete cars or locomotives, I do get concerned. The whole idea is to take the vintage pieces and RUN them.

I can't get really excited about things like motor conversions, because this is for people that OPERATE their models as well as admire them on the shelf, and upgrading things like trucks, couplers, etc, is fine, where do you draw the line?

Let's try and get back to what we were originally about, collecting and running the great vintage pieces of our youth.

Don

Don Dellmann
Contact me at: don.dellmann@...
See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

On 2/15/2016 7:49 PM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] wrote:

Bob,

You're far from being alone. I'd have to guess that most of us here prefer the same types of kits, from the same years and even earlier. Actually, DCC is out of place here and could be considered "Off Topic." It's certainly not Vintage. For that matter, can motor conversions are seen as being Off Topic, as I can't think of a single early H0 manufacturer which offered a can motor in their kits. This is all not to say that a modeler may not do as he pleases -- after all, it's his hobby -- but then, he getting far removed from operating as vintage, and that's half the fun of it; to operate just as it was many years past as these models were meant to be built up.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/15/2016 5:42:09 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

The comment came from a hobby shop owner and I think he was talking about wireless control systems.

I like the kits from the 40's, 50's, and 60's now. eBay is my friend!

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: Valerie Smith wooddale@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, February 15, 2016 9:21 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] WSJ article on end of the line for model trains

Bob

I just converted a brass locomotive to DCC and sound for under $90, so I don't know where you're getting your info. The only thing that needs to be watched out for in the conversions is to make sure the engine has a can motor and insulated from the frame.

Kits are still available and the new company, Scale Trains.com is producing them along with ready to run.

Larry Smith

--

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25107	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 2/17/2016
Subject: Re: Central Valley Trucks?

Don,

Walthers started carrying those junk Central Valley trucks in 1980. Modelers also have to watch out for them when buying build up rolling stock hyped up with Central Valley trucks having been installed. The trucks could be original George Hook Central valley or the real garbage ones.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/17/2016 12:47:25 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

I had some Central Valley cars with the nice CV trucks. And I had a lot of other cars that had CV trucks. I also had many sets of CV trucks in their original boxes.

These were all built in the 60's and 70's. When I sold them 15 years ago I found many of the falling apart.

In later years I converted to Kadee trucks and I had no problems with them.

But the CV trucks (when working) always seemed to roll better that even the Kadees.

I have seen NIB CV trucks on eBay but I have been reluctant to buying them because of the problems I was having with then 20 years ago.

Comments?

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

-- Don Dellmann Contact me at: don.dellmann@... See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25108	From: Brad Smith	Date: 2/17/2016
Subject: Re: Kudos to Don

As a kid, I always wanted a Casey Jones.

Brad

Sent from Brad's iPod

On Feb 17, 2016, at 1:05 PM, Bob Macklin macklinbob@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Mike,

For my small 2' by 4' layout all I need is an under the table speaker!

But right not I am not worried about sound and I don't need (can't afford) DCC.

I have 4 1886 Labelle passenger cars. I am looking for a Varney (or Bowser) 4-6-0 Casey Jones for them. I do have a Roundhouse Harriman 4-6-0 I can use but I want to leave it lettered for the SP. That train takes up my full MAIN LINE and goes NO WHERE!

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: Mike Bauers mwbauers55@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2016 10:41 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Kudos to Don

Bob,

I agree, screw that club and their dead-heads. Some people you just have to leave alone.

Still, the best part of DCC is the quality of the sound.

To do the same in pure DC you need to get one of the vintage PFM sound-control systems, or use the same pick-up method that it does, to pipe sound into the locomotives.

If you remember the pickup, it's a small coil and a pair of small caps feeding the on-model speaker, and blocking the power line noise.

When this system was first featured in The Hobby, I believe in the '30's, seen in MR, the sound feed was an ordinary sound-out cable from a phonograph.

I believe with the same pair of caps and the coil/ choke on the phono line connected to the tracks.

Except for a synchronized exhaust on a model steamer, the same can be done today with any audio sound source. One of those MRC trackside sound generators can be used like this to pipe in the sounds to the models.

Remembering this makes me want to try it with one of those sugar-cube smartphone speakers. It makes for a package about the size of two thumbnails about 1/8-inch thick.

It's something I can play with to see how well it can work today. Maybe with a sound-out port of a smartphone using that steam train sound app I have, or just a radio feed, or a recording of the old Lionel station announcement record.

The things one gets over the years from swap meets. I do have that record and it would be a hoot to make use of it like that.

And so I've rambled..... And wonder like you, why move to DCC when we can easily add sound to DC.

Mike Bauers
Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 17, 2016, at 10:05 AM, "Bob Macklin macklinbob@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

The last version of the Varney Dockside produced by Bowser did have a can motor.

And NWSL does produce a repower kit with new gears and a can motor for the Dockside.

But with the ATTITUDE I got from the local club I don't have a need to change.

I have almost all the parts(new from Bowser) to assemble a new Dockside. One item that is missing is the motor. I was planning to change the gears to NWSL gears so I might just as well use the complete NWSL repower kit.

But for now no need to go to DCC.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: Victor Bitleris bitlerisvj@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2016 7:24 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Kudos to Don

Hi Bob,

I agree DCC would not have much value on a 2 ft by 4 ft diorama. However, way back in the 1970's I think, Earl Smallshaw had a friend install Central Valley valve gear, a can motor with a flywheel and PFM sound in a Varney Docksider. WOW!!! If he could do all of that way back then, certainly a TCS WOW or Econami would fit in Little Joe, especially if you change out that HUGE Varney motor with a decent can motor. If one wanted to of course.

Regards, Vic B.

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Bob Macklin macklinbob@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2016 1:33 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Kudos to Don

Ray,

A couple months ago I asked our local club about running a DC locomotive on their DCC layout. They thought it could be done.

Bu they don't permit it. Plus they told me they use code 83 rails and our old locomotives won't stay on the track.

You can't put DCC in a Varney Dockside, Roundhouse 0-6-0T, Mantua Booster, or Mantua General.

I'm not going back to DCC. I have a 2' by 4' diorama. No need for DCC.

The club I was in Sacramento is now like the one here in Tacoma.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2016 9:01 PM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Kudos to Don

Interesting! I wouldn't know about that, Bob. I don't have (and don't want) any form of DCC. So then, from what you're describing, if a club has DiGiTrax (or possibly even another form of DCC that works similarly), there's no good reason to install DCC in a vintage loco to be able to operate it on such a layout. Thanks for the enlightenment.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/16/2016 8:41:29 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

I don't know about the other DCC systems but with DiGiTrax you can run ONE DC locomotive with the DCC locomotives.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2016 3:22 PM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Kudos to Don

John,

The terms "okay" and "vintage" appear to be almost interchangeable in many of these posts. If the only way to operate a vintage piece on a club layout is to install DCC (while still retaining DC capacity), my take on it is that it positively is okay -- but it's no longer strictly a vintage piece simply because DCC is not vintage. Other modelers can the appreciate how a vintage piece appears even though it's not being operated as one.

As for (Mike) Bauers' posts, I enjoy every one of them I see. Mike has certain style all his own. I only have to start reading one of them and I already know who wrote it before scrolling down to see who signed it. BTW, I regret having forgot to sign my last post -- something that I almost never refrain from doing. My apologies to all. I saw my signature was missing only after I clicked on send and before it actually went. Too late to change things then.

No, I missed seeing those $215 Sharks. Hard to figure, when I know I must have seen at least a dozen or more over the past year going for an average of from $25 -- $30 to no more than $40 each. Why wouldn't this buyer try buying one of those when he had the chance? Shows that some modelers don't know the true value of stuff they bid on, or they have deep enough pockets to allow them not to care.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/16/2016 9:40:57 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Don,

I for one agree with you wholeheartedly. I do accept the idea of repowering as that adds to the idea of operating vintage models.

I do tend to vacillate on DCC as some of us would like to be able to operate our precious antiques on club or other layouts where DCC is the operating system. I feel as long as the ability to run on DC is not compromised it is probably okay.

That said I do draw a line at sound, at least anything digital. If someone happens to have one of the old Mantua Syncro-Steam Sound locos, well go for it.

This is my favorite group and one that I am delighted whenever I see new postings, even from Bauers’ (said in jest). You have done an excellent job of controlling content without becoming dictatorial. Keep up the great work.

BTW, did any of you notice the sale on eBay of an AB set of Mantua Sharks for $215.00. This was an auction that I was following but once it got to $60.00, two bidders when nuts. Heck, I couldn’t afford the $60.00 level. A nice set for sure, both powered and in totally bare metal, original boxes and all but the price is ridiculous. For a $50.00 item no less.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2016 12:57 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] WSJ article on end of the line for model trains

I've been letting things drift a bit, but yes, per when I started the group, per our original statement DCC is definitely off topic. While I didn't say it I am getting concerned about reproductions too, small parts yes, but when members start talking about reproducing complete cars or locomotives, I do get concerned. The whole idea is to take the vintage pieces and RUN them.

I can't get really excited about things like motor conversions, because this is for people that OPERATE their models as well as admire them on the shelf, and upgrading things like trucks, couplers, etc, is fine, where do you draw the line?

Let's try and get back to what we were originally about, collecting and running the great vintage pieces of our youth.

Don

Don Dellmann
Contact me at: don.dellmann@...
See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

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Group: vintageHO	Message: 25109	From: Fred Hultberg	Date: 2/17/2016
Subject: Re: Digest Number 3640

Please trim your posts - I know it's usually a moderator who steps in, but really - some of the stuff that came in this digest is several digests old.(Does that make it vintage?)

Yes, I do know how to scroll down, but my vintage eyes get very tired trying to find the wonderful nuggets buried in repeats of old posts...they are there but I always worry that I may miss them...

Fred Hultberg(resident etching wizard, Fotocut)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25110	From: rxensen	Date: 2/17/2016
Subject: Re: DCC

What type oil do you use on the motor bearing? The front one with a bit of felt also seems to dry out.

Ron Christensen

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25111	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 2/17/2016
Subject: Re: Kudos to Don

You are not kidding Ken. I have a Taig lathe and have turned down flanges. It is not for the weak. There is very little to grab onto the tread and take very very light cuts. Some folks actually finish it off with a form tool, but I couldn't do that. I ended up using files slowly putting the flange profile back in once it was cut down. Just because I have a lathe, doesn't make me an expert by any means, just a hobbyist.

Regards, Vic B.

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Ken Starcher ohiocanal@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2016 4:24 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Kudos to Don

On Wed, 2/17/16, Mike Bauers mwbauers55@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Kudos to Don
To: "vintageHO@yahoogroups.com" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Wednesday, February 17, 2016, 2:48 AM

Philistines !!!

It sounds like no member of the club is savvy enough to
reduce the flanges on those old models to RP-25.

I suppose they don't have a resident craftsman that owns
a hobby lathe, nor know of one outside of the club
membership, nor of anyone that uses a local Makers Club that
would have access to that groups tools.

I being one that did my first such conversion in 1975, still
am surprised how even now, so few RR models have the
tool.

Mike Bauers

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 17, 2016, at 12:33 AM, "Bob Macklin
macklinbob@... [vintageHO]"
<vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

>

> Bu they don't permit it. Plus they told me they use
code 83 rails and our old locomotives won't stay on the
track.

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Group: vintageHO	Message: 25112	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 2/17/2016
Subject: Re: Central Valley Trucks?

Be careful with PSC wheelsets. I have received some that dog tracked and had to modify them to work properly. I bought some newer nickel silver wheelsets to replace brass ones and had a Dickens of a time getting them right.

Regards, Vic B.

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Bob Macklin macklinbob@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2016 2:08 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Central Valley Trucks?

I did have a good collection of CV passenger truck but some had the same problems as the freight trucks.

Now I use PSC brass passenger trucks. They are more expensive but I have had no problems with them.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: Victor Bitleris bitlerisvj@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2016 10:56 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Central Valley Trucks?

Hi Chuck,

They clean up, sort of, and not easily. If you don't mind discoloration and you feel that is a good price, go for it, but they will have some discoloration. The appearance does not affect their performance, unless the foam corroded the axle ends. Unlikely, but possible.

My personal feeling is that for freight trucks, I would go with Kadee rather than discolored Central Valley. For passenger trucks, I would bite the bullet and go with Central Valley, assuming a decent price and live with the discoloration.

Regards Vic B.

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of ckinzer@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2016 12:06 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Central Valley Trucks?

A recent eBay auction for 40 (!) pairs of Central Valley freight trucks said this:

“The inside foam is disintegrating that you can clean off the wheelsets with rubbing alcohol without any damage to the metal wheels and frames.”

Is that true? Do they clean up that easily? Brass locomotives surely don’t.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Windows Mail

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: ‎Wednesday‎, ‎February‎ ‎17‎, ‎2016 ‎8‎:‎59‎ ‎AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

I did have that problem too!

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: ckinzer@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2016 8:53 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Central Valley Trucks?

Another problem is the little pieces of packing foam adhering to the trucks. Just like the problem with some brass engines packed away for too long with foam in direct contact.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Windows Mail

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: ‎Wednesday‎, ‎February‎ ‎17‎, ‎2016 ‎8‎:‎41‎ ‎AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

I had some Central Valley cars with the nice CV trucks. And I had a lot of other cars that had CV trucks. I also had many sets of CV trucks in their original boxes.

These were all built in the 60's and 70's. When I sold them 15 years ago I found many of the falling apart.

In later years I converted to Kadee trucks and I had no problems with them.

But the CV trucks (when working) always seemed to roll better that even the Kadees.

I have seen NIB CV trucks on eBay but I have been reluctant to buying them because of the problems I was having with then 20 years ago.

Comments?

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25113	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 2/17/2016
Subject: Re: Central Valley Trucks?

Oh, I should mention that some folks have replaced the CV wheelsets in passenger trucks with Kadees or Reboxx. They drilled out two rivets and replaced them with 00-90 or 0-80 screws once the new wheelsets were in. This way, you get really nice trucks with good wheelsets. A little bit of work maybe, but probably worth it.

Regards, Vic B.

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Bob Macklin macklinbob@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2016 2:08 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Central Valley Trucks?

I did have a good collection of CV passenger truck but some had the same problems as the freight trucks.

Now I use PSC brass passenger trucks. They are more expensive but I have had no problems with them.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: Victor Bitleris bitlerisvj@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2016 10:56 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Central Valley Trucks?

Hi Chuck,

They clean up, sort of, and not easily. If you don't mind discoloration and you feel that is a good price, go for it, but they will have some discoloration. The appearance does not affect their performance, unless the foam corroded the axle ends. Unlikely, but possible.

My personal feeling is that for freight trucks, I would go with Kadee rather than discolored Central Valley. For passenger trucks, I would bite the bullet and go with Central Valley, assuming a decent price and live with the discoloration.

Regards Vic B.

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of ckinzer@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2016 12:06 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Central Valley Trucks?

A recent eBay auction for 40 (!) pairs of Central Valley freight trucks said this:

“The inside foam is disintegrating that you can clean off the wheelsets with rubbing alcohol without any damage to the metal wheels and frames.”

Is that true? Do they clean up that easily? Brass locomotives surely don’t.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Windows Mail

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: ‎Wednesday‎, ‎February‎ ‎17‎, ‎2016 ‎8‎:‎59‎ ‎AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

I did have that problem too!

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: ckinzer@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2016 8:53 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Central Valley Trucks?

Another problem is the little pieces of packing foam adhering to the trucks. Just like the problem with some brass engines packed away for too long with foam in direct contact.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Windows Mail

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: ‎Wednesday‎, ‎February‎ ‎17‎, ‎2016 ‎8‎:‎41‎ ‎AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

I had some Central Valley cars with the nice CV trucks. And I had a lot of other cars that had CV trucks. I also had many sets of CV trucks in their original boxes.

These were all built in the 60's and 70's. When I sold them 15 years ago I found many of the falling apart.

In later years I converted to Kadee trucks and I had no problems with them.

But the CV trucks (when working) always seemed to roll better that even the Kadees.

I have seen NIB CV trucks on eBay but I have been reluctant to buying them because of the problems I was having with then 20 years ago.

Comments?

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25114	From: Fred Holladay	Date: 2/17/2016
Subject: Re: Kudos to Don

             Ray
     ACC is the stuff that comes in little plastic bottles that you stick your fingers together with.

            Fred Holladay

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2016 07:15:43 -0500
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Kudos to Don

Charles,

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/17/2016 1:05:01 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Here is a good primer on running a DC locomotive on a DCC system. It isn’t all hearts and roses.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Windows Mail

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: ‎Tuesday‎, ‎February‎ ‎16‎, ‎2016 ‎9‎:‎01‎ ‎PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/16/2016 8:41:29 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

I don't know about the other DCC systems but with DiGiTrax you can run ONE DC locomotive with the DCC locomotives.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2016 3:22 PM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Kudos to Don

John,

The terms "okay" and "vintage" appear to be almost interchangeable in many of these posts. If the only way to operate a vintage piece on a club layout is to install DCC (while still retaining DC capacity), my take on it is that it positively is okay -- but it's no longer strictly a vintage piece simply because DCC is not vintage. Other modelers can the appreciate how a vintage piece appears even though it's not being operated as one.

As for (Mike) Bauers' posts, I enjoy every one of them I see. Mike has certain style all his own. I only have to start reading one of them and I already know who wrote it before scrolling down to see who signed it. BTW, I regret having forgot to sign my last post -- something that I almost never refrain from doing. My apologies to all. I saw my signature was missing only after I clicked on send and before it actually went. Too late to change things then.

No, I missed seeing those $215 Sharks. Hard to figure, when I know I must have seen at least a dozen or more over the past year going for an average of from $25 -- $30 to no more than $40 each. Why wouldn't this buyer try buying one of those when he had the chance? Shows that some modelers don't know the true value of stuff they bid on, or they have deep enough pockets to allow them not to care.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/16/2016 9:40:57 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Don,

I for one agree with you wholeheartedly. I do accept the idea of repowering as that adds to the idea of operating vintage models.

I do tend to vacillate on DCC as some of us would like to be able to operate our precious antiques on club or other layouts where DCC is the operating system. I feel as long as the ability to run on DC is not compromised it is probably okay.

That said I do draw a line at sound, at least anything digital. If someone happens to have one of the old Mantua Syncro-Steam Sound locos, well go for it.

This is my favorite group and one that I am delighted whenever I see new postings, even from Bauers’ (said in jest). You have done an excellent job of controlling content without becoming dictatorial. Keep up the great work.

BTW, did any of you notice the sale on eBay of an AB set of Mantua Sharks for $215.00. This was an auction that I was following but once it got to $60.00, two bidders when nuts. Heck, I couldn’t afford the $60.00 level. A nice set for sure, both powered and in totally bare metal, original boxes and all but the price is ridiculous. For a $50.00 item no less.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2016 12:57 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] WSJ article on end of the line for model trains

I've been letting things drift a bit, but yes, per when I started the group, per our original statement DCC is definitely off topic. While I didn't say it I am getting concerned about reproductions too, small parts yes, but when members start talking about reproducing complete cars or locomotives, I do get concerned. The whole idea is to take the vintage pieces and RUN them.

I can't get really excited about things like motor conversions, because this is for people that OPERATE their models as well as admire them on the shelf, and upgrading things like trucks, couplers, etc, is fine, where do you draw the line?

Let's try and get back to what we were originally about, collecting and running the great vintage pieces of our youth.

Don

Don Dellmann
Contact me at: don.dellmann@...
See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

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Group: vintageHO	Message: 25115	From: Denny Anspach	Date: 2/17/2016
Subject: Operating Vintage HO locomotives on modern layouts.

I do so much agree with Don Dellman that this list should stick to what it does best, i.e. stick with the operating excitement of operating, not shelving our old HO models. I have an abiding interest in the real thing and have no interest at all in speculative manufacture of replicas or part duplications.

Also, there are indeed many other DCC expert lists which welcome newcomers, and it would seem that that would be the best place to learn. . Taking into account the almost current predominant installed base of DCC operating layouts, it is very hard for an increasing number of us to not confront DCC as a fact of life in the operation our old DC locomotives, and so it has been for me for the past 17 years.
Here are a number of my personal observations:

DC locomotives can be safely operated on DCC layouts, and this is routinely done all the time. However, this safety become tenuous when the stopped or unused locomotive is left on a energized track, a problem not experienced on a DC layout.

There are few open frame motors whose measured operating current draw exceeds the practical limit of most non-sound DCC decoders.

There are few open frame motors whose brushes cannot be easily isolated by simple desoldering, bending up, or by isolating with tape the usual tab grounding one brush to the motor frame. Other simple methods of brush isolation become obvious with a little study, i.e. Tenshodo, Varney V-2, and Lindsay motors. I have yet to confront a single motor that required an insulated motor mount.

That said, few open frame motors can equal the advantages of a good can motor, especially those motors with weakened magnets, poor balancing, or simply poor construction (quite a few of the earlier Japanese motors). If a given open frame motor benefits from remagnetizing (I have that ability), does not draw excessive current, is well balanced (a crap shoot) ,and has good low speed operating characteristics, I install a decoder and use it as it is. If it flunks, and I really value the locomotive and its operation, I replace the motor with the can variety, if I can do so, bag and tag the old motor and its mounting hardware and tuck it into its packing box, ready for the next owner to put it back into its original place, if desired. I am careful to install the new motor without having to drill or tap or otherwise alter the locomotive frame. I have of course begged the question of drive replacement, i.e. worm drive, etc. , which is another issue.

Although most HO trackwork over the years since WWII has kept pretty well within NMRA standards, there is no doubt that the current trackwork keeps much closer tolerances than the older track ever tried to do. This does create problems for much of the older rolling stock, mostly with reference to wheel flange standards. The previous “deep” 0.030” flanges of old actually cause few problems with ekther code 70 or 83 trackwork, but the absence of a fillet between flange and tread -the principal feature introduced with the RP25 wheel- does cause problems. “Most” older pre-RP25 wheels are in fact in gauge, but many have very thick and blunt flanges that reduce the back-to-back measurements significantly. This combination can cause all sorts of insoluable problems with transiting Shinohara, M-E, and Walthers turnouts and other special work (while whizzing right through ancient Atlas or Tru-Scale turnouts, etc.). The older brass Varney wheels of ‘30s, ’40s, and ‘50s are notable exceptions to these problems.( Gordon Varney kept very high standards). The old Red Ball and Mantua wheel sets, not so.

What to do? When I can do so, I replace the wheel sets with modern RP25 sets, mostly Reboxx (because of their infinite variety of axle lengths and high quality), but also Kadee. I retire the old wheels to a bag, tag them, and then set them aside with the model to be put back on, if the future need arises.

I turn down flanges all the time, some on a lathe, but most with a simple file with the locomotive lying on its back. Of course, measures are taken to secure the filings. I do these ONLY when wheel replacement is neither possible, nor expedient.

At the moment, I have a model 4-6-0 built in 1936 (brass, tin plate) from one of the very first MR locomotive plans of 1934 that has Varney driving wheels. The original 6V motor is retired to its box in favor of a can motor, and I absolutely revel in watching this gorgeous example of early HO home craftsmanship chuff its way smoothly and quietly around the layout holding more than its own as compared to its newer locomotive brethren.

A Taylor Baltic 4-6-4 is on the bench, and I am going to be very interested to see what this venerable model (the very first American HO locomotive kit) is going to require to reliably operate, while doing no harm, and only making modifications that can be reversed easily.

BTW, the original Varney 0-4-0 Docksider can be converted to DCC with a tiny DZ decoder, open frame DC60 motor and all. Operation is not perfect, but it is no worse than pre-DCC.

Denny

Denny

Denny S. Anspach MD
Sacramento CA

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25116	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 2/17/2016
Subject: Re: Kudos to Don

Well reducing flanges is much easier than making a wheel.

You need a holding fixture to turn a wheel.

To reduce the flange you use a notched set of jaws, clamp on the outer tire, cut down the flange to height, then run a notched concave grooved tool end on the stub flange to contour the part.

The contour notch is made with a Dremel cut off disk and run in upside down from the back.

You set your cutter on the front, your contour tool on the back. In 5-10 seconds once you get going is what you'll need to cut and form the flange.

Simply because you are reducing the size of the original flange is why it goes so swiftly. The set up of the wheel in the chuck is almost as fast.

A protruding axle gets a greased end support made from a center drilled brass rod if you'd like to keep it simple.

Mike Bauers
Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 17, 2016, at 3:24 PM, "Ken Starcher ohiocanal@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>
> Just acquiring the tool doesn't mean one acquires the knowledge and skill to operate it effectively. Turning wheels without overheating them is a problem too. Chucking up drivers is tough. All there is to hold onto is the tread of the wheel, unless you use the axle which may not be very strong. Even then, if you're working on a steam engine, you now have to figure out how to quarter it. That's a lot of learning to do. Not many clubs are large enough to have people with those skills

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25117	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 2/17/2016
Subject: Re: WSJ article on end of the line for model trains

Wrong organizations….

I have in mind fraternal groups like The Shriners, the Masons, The Lions club, or even the YMCA.

That kind of -community- service organization.

Best to ya,
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi

> On Feb 17, 2016, at 8:42 AM, Alpvalsys wrote:
>
>
>
> Mike Bauers wrote:
> < service organizations are shrinking as well due to the sick economy and a multiplying new base of a culture of governmental dependency
> --------------------------------
> I take strong exception to that. I'm a veteran of military service, but I do not wish to join the American Legion, the VFW, or any of the other veterans' organizations simply because they don't hold any relevancy for me. I'm financially comfortable, I do volunteer work at my church's outreach center, and I'm involved in both the NRHS (50 years) and the NMRA. Linking so-called government dependency to changes in hobby participation is an apples-and-oranges kind of thing; it's irrelevant.
>
> Ralph V. Balfoort
> Retired D&H and VRS

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25118	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 2/17/2016
Subject: Re: Kudos to Don

Fred,

Yeah, you're right. Now, THAT'S a sticky situation! I wasn't thinking along those lines when mulling about electricity.

Ray

In a message dated 2/17/2016 11:24:41 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

             Ray
     ACC is the stuff that comes in little plastic bottles that you stick your fingers together with.

            Fred Holladay

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2016 07:15:43 -0500
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Kudos to Don

Charles,

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/17/2016 1:05:01 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Here is a good primer on running a DC locomotive on a DCC system. It isn’t all hearts and roses.

https://sites.google.com/site/markgurries/home/technical-discussions/dc-loco-on-dcc

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Windows Mail

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: ‎Tuesday‎, ‎February‎ ‎16‎, ‎2016 ‎9‎:‎01‎ ‎PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/16/2016 8:41:29 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

I don't know about the other DCC systems but with DiGiTrax you can run ONE DC locomotive with the DCC locomotives.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2016 3:22 PM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Kudos to Don

John,

The terms "okay" and "vintage" appear to be almost interchangeable in many of these posts. If the only way to operate a vintage piece on a club layout is to install DCC (while still retaining DC capacity), my take on it is that it positively is okay -- but it's no longer strictly a vintage piece simply because DCC is not vintage. Other modelers can the appreciate how a vintage piece appears even though it's not being operated as one.

As for (Mike) Bauers' posts, I enjoy every one of them I see. Mike has certain style all his own. I only have to start reading one of them and I already know who wrote it before scrolling down to see who signed it. BTW, I regret having forgot to sign my last post -- something that I almost never refrain from doing. My apologies to all. I saw my signature was missing only after I clicked on send and before it actually went. Too late to change things then.

No, I missed seeing those $215 Sharks. Hard to figure, when I know I must have seen at least a dozen or more over the past year going for an average of from $25 -- $30 to no more than $40 each. Why wouldn't this buyer try buying one of those when he had the chance? Shows that some modelers don't know the true value of stuff they bid on, or they have deep enough pockets to allow them not to care.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/16/2016 9:40:57 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Don,

I for one agree with you wholeheartedly. I do accept the idea of repowering as that adds to the idea of operating vintage models.

I do tend to vacillate on DCC as some of us would like to be able to operate our precious antiques on club or other layouts where DCC is the operating system. I feel as long as the ability to run on DC is not compromised it is probably okay.

That said I do draw a line at sound, at least anything digital. If someone happens to have one of the old Mantua Syncro-Steam Sound locos, well go for it.

This is my favorite group and one that I am delighted whenever I see new postings, even from Bauers’ (said in jest). You have done an excellent job of controlling content without becoming dictatorial. Keep up the great work.

BTW, did any of you notice the sale on eBay of an AB set of Mantua Sharks for $215.00. This was an auction that I was following but once it got to $60.00, two bidders when nuts. Heck, I couldn’t afford the $60.00 level. A nice set for sure, both powered and in totally bare metal, original boxes and all but the price is ridiculous. For a $50.00 item no less.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2016 12:57 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] WSJ article on end of the line for model trains

I've been letting things drift a bit, but yes, per when I started the group, per our original statement DCC is definitely off topic. While I didn't say it I am getting concerned about reproductions too, small parts yes, but when members start talking about reproducing complete cars or locomotives, I do get concerned. The whole idea is to take the vintage pieces and RUN them.

I can't get really excited about things like motor conversions, because this is for people that OPERATE their models as well as admire them on the shelf, and upgrading things like trucks, couplers, etc, is fine, where do you draw the line?

Let's try and get back to what we were originally about, collecting and running the great vintage pieces of our youth.

Don

Don Dellmann
Contact me at: don.dellmann@...
See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

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Group: vintageHO	Message: 25119	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 2/18/2016
Subject: Re: Operating Vintage HO locomotives on modern layouts.

Denny,

I find one point here in particular to be of specific significance, and that's the statement you made about most vintage pre-RP25 wheels encountering problems when transiting Shinohara, M&E and Walthers turnouts. I find this of special interest as I've been contemplating installing several Shinohara (or Walthers) wide-radius turnouts -- and all of my equipment has pre-RP25 wheels, as I have nothing but vintage models. Thanks for advising this problem will occur with these manufacturers' turnouts, and to obviously avoid using them.

Would you know if this vintage wheel -- modern turnout problem is restricted only to the two Codes (70 and 83) you cite, or will Code 100 also promote this problem? Would you also know whether Peco turnouts will cause this same problem, or will they better permit the transition of pre-RP25 wheelsets through them? I have Code 100, as I mentioned with another recent post I made, "disguising" it by heavily weathering the sides of the rails. Am I to be relegated only to using Atlas (or Tru-Scale) turnouts, having no curved turnouts available with them? It sounds like you're referring only to Code 70 and Code 83, but I'm not quite clear on that. Many thanks again.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/17/2016 11:59:44 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25120	From: Russ Shiel	Date: 2/18/2016
Subject: global shipping rort

H'lo all...I posted a heads-up to brasscollectors, to which some of you subscribe, but not all the international folks, to whom this heads-up is directed.

Before Christmas, Paypal charged me $26 for Pitney Bowes to 'process' an eBay win which had already been posted, and was somewhere over the Pacific when they levied the spurious charge against my credit card, which I'd used to pay the seller, and for the postage he quoted (<$24).

No response from eBay or Paypal to requests for a refund, or justification of the payment to Pitney Bowes. This after >10 years of 100% positives, and >1400 transactions with eBay. Needless to say, I'm no longer a customer...if they need my $26 so badly, good luck to them.

International buyers...beware of the Global Shipping program...it doesn't combine postage, it levies spurious charges, for example claimed 'duties and taxes' where there are none....and it charges more than the USPS!

Disgruntled Russ in Adelaide!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25121	From: willard seehorn	Date: 2/18/2016
Subject: Subject lines [was] Digest Number 3640

Also not a moderator, but still requesting this.

Please consider changing the subject line when the topic drifts. The subject "WSJ article on end of the line for model trains" went through discussions of the original topic, repairing/restoring vintage equipment, nomenclature of improved repaired vintage equipment and now (some exaggeration involved) the moral decay of the nation caused by sucking at the government teat.

Willard

-----Original Message-----

Please trim your posts - I know it's usually a moderator who steps in, but really - some of the stuff that came in this digest is several digests old.(Does that make it vintage?)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25122	From: Fred Holladay	Date: 2/18/2016
Subject: Re: Mantua Sharks

         Guys
   Thanks for all the info.  I now have a better idea of what I actually have.   Never paid much attention to Mantua back in the day but between this group and HO Info Seeker I'm learning.

        Fred Holladay

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2016 15:59:29 -0600
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Mantua Sharks

Don,

I gotta get a grip on this.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2016 11:39 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua Sharks

In the early 60's Hobbytown actually sold the Mantua bodies with Hobbytown drives, I would guess they did the same thing.

Don

On 2/17/2016 9:37 AM, Mike Bauers mwbauers55@... [vintageHO] wrote:

I'm removing my pillars to put modern drives in.

Mike Bauers
Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 16, 2016, at 6:58 PM, "fvh2@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Now I have a problem. A couple of years ago I gathered up a bunch of die-cast Shark shells to build up. I have both Mantua and (I think) Hobbytown A's and a couple of B's. The plan was to use Hobbytown drives mostly rebuilt from used parts on hand. One big problem is the huge pillar in the center of the Mantua shells: do I remove it or try to find Mantua parts. I really don't like the later Mantua/Tyco motor trucks at all. I guess the question is restored clunkers or non-original Resto-Rods. Or just leave them out behind the back shop.
Fred Holladay

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Group: vintageHO	Message: 25123	From: Fred Holladay	Date: 2/18/2016
Subject: Re: Central Valley Trucks?

The late CVs should be easy enough to spot. They have bright plated wheels. They were insulated with plastic bushings which are the main problem. The originals were varnish insulated, like commutator wire. This will occasionaly break down causing a short. I wonder if that could be remedied with a tiny drop of ACC? The new versions were packaged in a plastic bubble on a hang card, not a plastic box. Short cuts probibly to keep costs in line which spoiled a great product.

Fred Holladay

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2016 11:46:37 -0600
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Central Valley Trucks?

I had some Central Valley cars with the nice CV trucks. And I had a lot of other cars that had CV trucks. I also had many sets of CV trucks in their original boxes.

These were all built in the 60's and 70's. When I sold them 15 years ago I found many of the falling apart.

In later years I converted to Kadee trucks and I had no problems with them.

But the CV trucks (when working) always seemed to roll better that even the Kadees.

I have seen NIB CV trucks on eBay but I have been reluctant to buying them because of the problems I was having with then 20 years ago.

Comments?

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

-- Don Dellmann Contact me at: don.dellmann@... See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25124	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 2/18/2016
Subject: Re: Central Valley Trucks?

Yes, the original owner took the information on wheelset insulation with him when he died. The new owner had to figure out and invent new ways of insulating one of the wheels. He eventually did, but by then it was too late and bad press and word of mouth led to the end of the trucks. He went on to create the truss bridge and several other things, but vowed never to get back in the trucking business (pun intended). I understand his son has made a few passenger trucks for friends and is considering making them again?

Regards, Vic B.

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Fred Holladay fvh2@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2016 11:09 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Central Valley Trucks?

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2016 11:46:37 -0600
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Central Valley Trucks?

I had some Central Valley cars with the nice CV trucks. And I had a lot of other cars that had CV trucks. I also had many sets of CV trucks in their original boxes.

These were all built in the 60's and 70's. When I sold them 15 years ago I found many of the falling apart.

In later years I converted to Kadee trucks and I had no problems with them.

But the CV trucks (when working) always seemed to roll better that even the Kadees.

I have seen NIB CV trucks on eBay but I have been reluctant to buying them because of the problems I was having with then 20 years ago.

Comments?

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

-- Don Dellmann Contact me at: don.dellmann@... See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25125	From: Rick Jones	Date: 2/18/2016
Subject: Re: Central Valley Trucks?

On 2/18/2016 8:30 AM, Victor Bitleris bitlerisvj@... [vintageHO]
wrote:

>
>
> Yes, the original owner took the information on wheelset insulation with
> him when he died. The new owner had to figure out and invent new ways
> of insulating one of the wheels. He eventually did, but by then it was
> too late and bad press and word of mouth led to the end of the trucks.
> He went on to create the truss bridge and several other things, but
> vowed never to get back in the trucking business (pun intended). I
> understand his son has made a few passenger trucks for friends and is
> considering making them again?

About 15 years ago I visited CV in Oceana, CA to see if he'd be
willing to sell the molds, etc. for the lines of trucks. He was not
interested, and said if he ever did decide to let them go Kadee was
first in line to get them.

--

Rick Jones

There is always one more imbecile than you counted on.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25126	From: Ed Weldon	Date: 2/18/2016
Subject: oversize wheel flanges

Mike - I like your method. Seems to me the brass rod in the tailstock could be mounted on the head of a live center and machined from stock large enough in diameter to match your biggest driver diameter. I suppose you could mount it in a tailstock drill chuck if you don't end up with too much runout that might loosen the wheel in the headstock chuck or collet.
Cut a concave cone included angle about 60 degrees. I'd make it out of Delrin. I have a live center like that for my 6" Atlas lathe. The Delrin piece is simply a snug fit on the rotating steel live center point. It doesn't even need to be that. Live centers for Sherline and Taig lathes have just a protruding cone. So machine a cone of that diameter on the other side of the Delrin plug and hold it in place while you run the tailstock in to lightly clamp the plug against the outer driver. Not too tight as to move the wheel on its axle or a tire on a driver.
Live centers for small lathes are a bit of investment; but that pays off pretty fast if you are doing a lot of wheel flanges. And note that the shallower the outer concave cone angle on the tailstock plug the less force will be needed to hold the wheel/axle assembly against the lathe chuck. Just don't make the taper so small that you end up with a locking taper. A 1/4 dia hole in the center of the plug will let you deal with that. Ed Weldon

Well reducing flanges is much easier than making a wheel.
You need a holding fixture to turn a wheel.
To reduce the flange you use a notched set of jaws, clamp on the outer tire, cut down the flange to height, then run a notched concave grooved tool end on the stub flange to contour the part.
The contour notch is made with a Dremel cut off disk and run in upside down from the back.
You set your cutter on the front, your contour tool on the back. In 5-10 seconds once you get going is what you'll need to cut and form the flange.
Simply because you are reducing the size of the original flange is why it goes so swiftly. The set up of the wheel in the chuck is almost as fast.
A protruding axle gets a greased end support made from a center drilled brass rod if you'd like to keep it simple.
Mike Bauers

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25127	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 2/18/2016
Subject: Re: oversize wheel flanges

Thanks, Ed.

I adapted it from frequent observation of how industrial overhead crane drive wheels are made on a lathe in the mining machine production shop of P&H.

I found that putting a 3/4-inch or so piece of rod, recessed into the bore hole of a clamped down hobby lathe turning chuck, allowed me to cut the jaws very shallowly on the inside surface of the jaws, worked for any HO steamer driver I needed to reduce the flanges of. It’s just a shallow notch that gets added to the inside of the lathe chuck-head jaws. That doesn’t affect any other use of the chuck.

When its a protruding axle mounted set of wheels I then use the normal set up of supporting the shaft on both ends.

When doing a steamer drive wheel flange, I only cut the wheel the is in the lathe head-chuck. This way I don’t need to have a more rigid mount for the drive set.

You have very little room near the chuck face to work on the flange. But that’s not a problem since it’s only a very slender rim of flange that you are cutting shorter, and the jaws are very slender near its ends. There’s more than enough room above the face of the lathe chuck to safely trim the flange.

You do need to make a turning fixture if you wish to trim both flanges in one go without removing the wheel set. But as long as you are only re-tooling the flange, working on just the flange of the driver you have installed in the lathe-chuck you save the effort of making that holding fixture and once you add in the time used to adjust the cutters for both wheels, cutting just the one in the lathe head seems to be a time saver as well.

I do much the same with a RR wheel set. while I can support both ends of the axle, it’s convenient to cut only the wheel that is mounted in the headstock. I’m not certain that I can reliably trim the flange on the outboard and be certain it will run true with my simple tailstock center drilled end support. I set up the lathe to cut near the head stock and feeding in each wheel that needs to be trimmed is so swift that I don’t bother to change the set-up of the tools to do both wheels.

Once the tools are set, they only need to be moved less than an inch to work on the wheels that get mounted in the head stock, So working repeatedly in the less than an inch work envelope ultimately saves much more time, and tool-mount cranking, than attempting to work both ends of a driver set of wheels on both respective ends of the lathe table.

If I had to turn an entire tire by itself or once mounted on the wheel center, a solid-holding turning-fixture would be required for the operation.

I once helped a fellow modeler by cutting down his large carton of NEM flanged European passenger cars into RP-25 height and contour. Once started, it took somewhere near a half hour to do the several passenger cars. Once a wheel is mounted, it’s well under 15-seconds to do the job. Perhaps about half of that after you do the third one in a session.

For the heck of it, I’ll attach a shot of Da Jobs WW-II assembly floor to show a bit of what varied machining was done. That includes the long run line of overhead cranes as well.

Best to ya,
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi

On Feb 18, 2016, at 1:54 PM, Ed Weldon wrote:

Mike - I like your method. Seems to me the brass rod in the tailstock could be mounted on the head of a live center and machined from stock large enough in diameter to match your biggest driver diameter. I suppose you could mount it in a tailstock drill chuck if you don't end up with too much runout that might loosen the wheel in the headstock chuck or collet.
Cut a concave cone included angle about 60 degrees. I'd make it out of Delrin. I have a live center like that for my 6" Atlas lathe. The Delrin piece is simply a snug fit on the rotating steel live center point. It doesn't even need to be that. Live centers for Sherline and Taig lathes have just a protruding cone. So machine a cone of that diameter on the other side of the Delrin plug and hold it in place while you run the tailstock in to lightly clamp the plug against the outer driver. Not too tight as to move the wheel on its axle or a tire on a driver.
Live centers for small lathes are a bit of investment; but that pays off pretty fast if you are doing a lot of wheel flanges. And note that the shallower the outer concave cone angle on the tailstock plug the less force will be needed to hold the wheel/axle assembly against the lathe chuck. Just don't make the taper so small that you end up with a locking taper. A 1/4 dia hole in the center of the plug will let you deal with that. Ed Weldon
Well reducing flanges is much easier than making a wheel.
You need a holding fixture to turn a wheel.
To reduce the flange you use a notched set of jaws, clamp on the outer tire, cut down the flange to height, then run a notched concave grooved tool end on the stub flange to contour the part.
The contour notch is made with a Dremel cut off disk and run in upside down from the back.
You set your cutter on the front, your contour tool on the back. In 5-10 seconds once you get going is what you'll need to cut and form the flange.
Simply because you are reducing the size of the original flange is why it goes so swiftly. The set up of the wheel in the chuck is almost as fast.
A protruding axle gets a greased end support made from a center drilled brass rod if you'd like to keep it simple.
Mike Bauers

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25128	From: Doug Harris	Date: 2/18/2016
Subject: Re: global shipping rort

On 18/02/2016 22:22, Russ Shiel rshiel01@... [vintageHO] wrote:

> H'lo all...I posted a heads-up to brasscollectors, to which some of you subscribe, but not all the international folks, to whom this heads-up is directed.
> Before Christmas, Paypal charged me $26 for Pitney Bowes to 'process' an eBay win which had already been posted, and was somewhere over the Pacific when they levied the spurious charge against my credit card, which I'd used to pay the seller, and for the postage he quoted (<$24).
> No response from eBay or Paypal to requests for a refund, or justification of the payment to Pitney Bowes. This after>10 years of 100% positives, and>1400 transactions with eBay. Needless to say, I'm no longer a customer...if they need my $26 so badly, good luck to them.
> International buyers...beware of the Global Shipping program...it doesn't combine postage, it levies spurious charges, for example claimed 'duties and taxes' where there are none....and it charges more than the USPS!
> Disgruntled Russ in Adelaide!

Thanks for the heads up here Ross..

This is OT, so I'll make it brief:

I live in New Zealand.

I have most of my ebay purchases sent to a friend and fellow collector
in California, using the much cheaper internal US Post rates.

He combines purchases for me, and posts to a NZ Post drop shipper in
Oregon, US.

Australia Post may offer a similar service.

NZ Post email me for a valuation on the items, which I send - their
website computes my postage costs, which I pay by credit card. They bulk
container ship to me at the cheapest rate available.

This does involve three lots of shipping, but is still way cheaper than
direct shipping every item. I estimated that I saved $200 on my last
parcel..

There are also a couple of GST (sales tax) loopholes here which can be
used. Contact me off-group for any further info.

--
Cheers.

Doug Harris
Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25130	From: Denny Anspach	Date: 2/18/2016
Subject: Re: Operating Vintage HO locomotives on modern layouts.

Ray, my own best suggestion is to somehow beg, borrow, buy *with return privilege* one of the curved 83 turnouts and bench test. My best guess is that for most of what you have, there will be no problems that cannot be solved by judicious filing of blunt rail ends, etc. . The frogs and guard rails are the big issues. Another thought is to look to Peco code 100 tiurnouts. Their traditional extensive line is designed for the Eurorpean trade with their overly-generous flanges (depth and width). They are of very high quality and pretty bullet-proof (I use a great many of their turnouts exclusively in my layout staging yard). The only downside is that the tie spacing and curvature of the diverging route are also to European standards, something that few observers seem to ever really notice.

In fact, if I was building a new layout purely for the operation of antique equipment on their original wheels, I would definitely consider Peco.

Denny

Denny S. Anspach MD
Sacramento CA

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25131	From: Ed Weldon	Date: 2/18/2016
Subject: Re: global shipping rort

I wonder if anyone has started up a Yahoo group for people without purchasing and international sales departments to discuss the problems of doing business with buyers and sellers in other countries. eBay and others. Which countries have their postal act together and/or reasonable rates for shipping. Which ones have customs problems. Language problems that creep into their for sale adds. Probably others.
I'd join in a heartbeat. For example why does a modern nation like the UK have such high postal rates? Ditto Canada and Australia. Or surprise! Brazil's postal system seems to have their act together in spite of their national economic problems. Or how best to deal with Paypal.

Big subject. Let's not try to explore the subject on this forum.
Ed Weldon

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25132	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 2/18/2016
Subject: Re: global shipping rort

I’d call this an excellent idea.

Does anyone know of a Yahoo list that is related to the issue ?

It would be shame to duplicate a similar effort if something like it is already in motion.

Best to ya,
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi

> On Feb 18, 2016, at 10:47 PM, Ed Weldon wrote:
>
>
>
> I wonder if anyone has started up a Yahoo group for people without purchasing and international sales departments to discuss the problems of doing business with buyers and sellers in other countries. eBay and others. Which countries have their postal act together and/or reasonable rates for shipping. Which ones have customs problems. Language problems that creep into their for sale adds. Probably others.
> I'd join in a heartbeat. For example why does a modern nation like the UK have such high postal rates? Ditto Canada and Australia. Or surprise! Brazil's postal system seems to have their act together in spite of their national economic problems. Or how best to deal with Paypal.
>
> Big subject. Let's not try to explore the subject on this forum.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25133	From: Doug Harris	Date: 2/18/2016
Subject: Re: global shipping rort

On 19/02/2016 17:47, Ed Weldon 23.weldon@... [vintageHO] wrote:

> I wonder if anyone has started up a Yahoo group for people without
> purchasing and international sales departments to discuss the problems
> of doing business with buyers and sellers in other countries. eBay and
> others. Which countries have their postal act together and/or
> reasonable rates for shipping. Which ones have customs problems.
> Language problems that creep into their for sale adds. Probably others.
> I'd join in a heartbeat. For example why does a modern nation like the
> UK have such high postal rates? Ditto Canada and Australia. Or
> surprise! Brazil's postal system seems to have their act together in
> spite of their national economic problems. Or how best to deal with Paypal.
>
> Big subject. Let's _not_ try to explore the subject on this forum.
> Ed Weldon

Yes they have. Search yahoo groups.

--
Cheers.

Doug Harris
Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25134	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 2/18/2016
Subject: personal update

I realize only a few will be wondering, So I’ll make this brief. Most of you can ignore this.

As some will recall, I had to have some sort of major surgery about 4-months ago and expected to spend about 3-months at home.

Well, that passed and I’m doing quite well. It feels like I have a couple or more months to go to be fully healed, mainly just the back to back through the front scar complete its healing.

I got back to work last week and last Thursday I was told they are closing the complex sooner than they had expected. The operation is being split between China and Texas. So like you see happening with the classic BE operation that Cat bought some years ago and is further south in this country, so is the P&H operation being mostly closed down and moved out of the MidWest.

But….. since it’s a union shop operation, I was given the opportunity to work in the central distribution center on the south end of the county. We expect that to be closed in a few years. But for now I’m working.

And wouldn’t you know it? I caught a hell of a serious cold starting this weekend and decided to take Thursday and Friday as vacation to beat it down.

The main shop of P&H will be in operation for some years to come and I have two possibilities of being re-assigned there in the job I was cut-back from a few years ago if one union steward loses an election in a month on first shift [who became a steward just be before they cut back a few years ago , thus as my coworker she with 4-years remained on the job while I with about 40-years then, had to go, off of first shift ] ; or my later coworker on the second shift who is about to retire and remained when the second shift I had been moved to was cut back, will retire after July and between the two of them, one of my old positions will open up.

That plant location is just 10-minutes drive while the warehouse is over an hour away. The informal motto of the firm has been 'Join P&H and see Milwaukee county’ [as you bounce between plants during spells of bad economy.]

Ultimately, I’ve been lucky. Even though I was cut-back about five times in the last four years, I managed to still have a job in the company and get some critical surgery done through some rather good medical insurance. In June, I have 43 years on the job.

I find myself often recalling an old Chinese curse… “ May you live in interesting times.”

My immediate regret was that I missed out on TrainFest and the holiday season to date from late October, and now I don’t think I can make it to this weekends Madison annual train show that is neck and neck with the November Milwaukee TrainFest in quality. Its a very nasty cold !

I’ll not post more on this. Don’t worry about that happening. A few people were left wondering and this seemed to be the best way to pass it on.

I keep reminding myself that its great to be on this side of the sod. That outweighs any other inconvenience of these strange times we live in.

Best to ya,
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25135	From: Doug Harris	Date: 2/18/2016
Subject: Re: personal update

On 19/02/2016 18:42, Mike Bauers mwbauers55@... [vintageHO] wrote:

> I realize only a few will be wondering, So I’ll make this brief. Most of
> you can ignore this.

> I keep reminding myself that its great to be on this side of the sod.
> That outweighs any other inconvenience of these strange times we live in.
>
> Best to ya,
> Mike Bauers

Mike, that is true and that is quite a saga! I thought I did it tough in
my working days..

Remember the other wisdom - Indian I think - 'This too will pass'..

Thinking of you..

--
Cheers.

Doug Harris
Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25136	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 2/19/2016
Subject: Re: Some Good Ones--most new [22 Attachments]

Cute, but definitely off topic

Don

--
Don Dellmann
Contact me at:
don.dellmann@...
See my toys at:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25137	From: jim_irene.more	Date: 2/19/2016
Subject: Re: Ken Kidder plantion loco

Hi Guys.

I found the problem with my plantation loco. The person who had it before m must have removed the wheels and put the back wrong. One insulated wheel was on the wrong side opposite the pickup strip. There fore shorting across the chassis. Thanks for your assistance . Much appreciated.

Jim M.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25138	From: Denny Anspach	Date: 2/19/2016
Subject: Re: Central Valley Trucks?

Central Valley passenger trucks are my go-to trucks for almost all of my standard-weight passenger car modeling requiring trucks of those types, especially my very best models. . They stand up very well as to prototypical accuracy, are sturdily and squarely made of high quality zamac casting that rarely develops zincpest, and can be made to roll with the best. I have been using them since the fifties, and still keep drawing from a pretty large inventory. They are a treasure and true classics of prototype accuracy, and I often -for pennies- rescue pairs from unsold ancient or decrepit models on the sales tables that are otherwise destined eventually to the land fill.

Observations:

In the life of Central Valley, both George Hook and Jack Parker used a variety of wheel sets that simply did not roll well. Part of the problem was (and is) that the cast bearing holes are shaped to a non-standard cone, while the wheel sets had axle end points generally close to the NMRA standards (I used to rattle off the degree angles, but…..).

The ‘Streamline’ passenger trucks had few prototypes for which they were broadly accurate, and those few were the 'American Flyer' (Osgood Bradley) cars made for the New Haven, BM, B&A, Seaboard and only a few other railroads. They are very close to the Milwaukee Road’s trucks under the very first Hiawatha cars of 1934, and I have so used them successfully in this role.

My practice is to replace the wheel sets in those trucks that do not roll well by removing the rivets on one side of the truck bolster, removing one side frame, and then replacing the rivets with countersunk 2-56 flat head screws. This is relatively easy inasmuch as the diameter of the rivets is almost exactly that needed to tap for the 2-56 screws. The wheel sets that work well (and look better!) in the three axle trucks are Reboxx 1.020” axles on the ends, and a single Reboxx 1.015” axle in the middle.

The freight trucks are also excellent, but with over-thick side frames. It is relatively easy to swap wheel sets, if desired or needed. Their Fox Patent trucks are just about the only ones ever produced, and they seem to command a high premium.

Denny

Denny S. Anspach MD
Sacramento CA

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25139	From: corlissbs	Date: 2/19/2016
Subject: Re: personal update

Mike:

I know how you are feeling. I had two workplaces close while I was employed. First, the Milwaukee Road Shops and then A.O. Smith moved the plant to Mexico and Michigan. Luckily, I got a pension from both. I wish you the best and hope you are well enough to make the Mad City train show, which some consider better than Trainfest. Stop and see me at our N-scale layout, if you make it.

Brad

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25140	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 2/19/2016
Subject: Re: personal update

Thanks Brad,

I sure don’t feel well enough today. I hope Sunday will be fine for me. I’m glad I was able to sleep these couple of days at home in the living room. I can breathe with my nose today, not so yesterday.

For vintage content…..

Today one of those swing coupler traction mounts arrived from eBay. For years I had wanted those for the Walthers and Suydam trolleys I had got a few of over the years. I could never find more than one or two of those and always needed more.

Finally I realized that if I could only get one of the hard to find sets, that the normally stamped radius retaining bar/plate could also be made up from suitably stiff plastic sheet cut to the same shapes and spaced with some more styrene feet instead of having bent metal feet.

Its a minor part, but critical to not having long couplers sagging on the ends of model trolleys. It makes it possible to use a KaDee type of coupler on the vintage kit models with no problems.

Maybe with tin can metal instead….. But now I have a well formed pattern to work from.

Best to ya,

Mike Bauers

Milwaukee, Wi

On Feb 19, 2016, at 1:53 PM, corlissbs wrote:

Mike:

I know how you are feeling. I had two workplaces close while I was employed. First, the Milwaukee Road Shops and then A.O. Smith moved the plant to Mexico and Michigan. Luckily, I got a pension from both. I wish you the best and hope you are well enough to make the Mad City train show, which some consider better than Trainfest. Stop and see me at our N-scale layout, if you make it.

Brad

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25141	From: Richard Carbo	Date: 2/19/2016
Subject: Re: personal update

Good luck Mike. Hope it all works out for you. Don’t take offense, but things like this make me appreciate even more that I was able to retire almost seven years ago. Best wishes. Richard Carbo

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Friday, February 19, 2016 12:43 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vintageHO] personal update

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25142	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 2/19/2016
Subject: Re: personal update

Retirement does sound attractive.

If I stay working for a couple of more years I can comfortably have the roof renewed, add in some tools I’ve saved for and finish some home maintenance that is needed as well as build some new-age-tech train modules to take into retirement.

There are some nice goodies I’d like to get before I’m on a retirement income that can help me boost my income. or at least make my modeling more interesting.

Best to ya,

Mike Bauers

Milwaukee, Wi

On Feb 19, 2016, at 2:23 PM, 'Richard Carbo' wrote:

Good luck Mike. Hope it all works out for you. Don’t take offense, but things like this make me appreciate even more that I was able to retire almost seven years ago. Best wishes. Richard Carbo

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25143	From: Richard Carbo	Date: 2/19/2016
Subject: Re: personal update

Believe me when I say I thank God every day that I am retired. Life is too short. It took a lot of hard work and some sacrifice, but it sure is appreciated. Richard

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Friday, February 19, 2016 3:58 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] personal update

Retirement does sound attractive.

There are some nice goodies I’d like to get before I’m on a retirement income that can help me boost my income. or at least make my modeling more interesting.

Best to ya,

Mike Bauers

Milwaukee, Wi

On Feb 19, 2016, at 2:23 PM, 'Richard Carbo' wrote:

Good luck Mike. Hope it all works out for you. Don’t take offense, but things like this make me appreciate even more that I was able to retire almost seven years ago. Best wishes. Richard Carbo

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25144	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 2/19/2016
Subject: Re: personal update

I do agree with you !

Best to ya,

Mike Bauers

Milwaukee, Wi

On Feb 19, 2016, at 3:12 PM, 'Richard Carbo' wrote:

Believe me when I say I thank God every day that I am retired. Life is too short. It took a lot of hard work and some sacrifice, but it sure is appreciated. Richard

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25145	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 2/19/2016
Subject: Re: personal update

Great news Mike!

Sincerely,

Sean

From: "Mike Bauers mwbauers55@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, February 19, 2016 12:42 AM
Subject: [vintageHO] personal update

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25146	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 2/19/2016
Subject: Re: personal update

The thought of retirement just scares me. Not ready for it.

Sincerely,

Sean

From: "Mike Bauers mwbauers55@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, February 19, 2016 3:58 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] personal update

Retirement does sound attractive.

There are some nice goodies I’d like to get before I’m on a retirement income that can help me boost my income. or at least make my modeling more interesting.

Best to ya,

Mike Bauers

Milwaukee, Wi

On Feb 19, 2016, at 2:23 PM, 'Richard Carbo' wrote:

Good luck Mike. Hope it all works out for you. Don’t take offense, but things like this make me appreciate even more that I was able to retire almost seven years ago. Best wishes. Richard Carbo

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25147	From: Don Grant	Date: 2/19/2016
Subject: Re: Some Good Ones--most new

Sorry all! Big finger disease! And not proof reading. This was meant for someone else.

Don Grant

From: "Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com; Don Grant <grant-d@...>
Sent: Friday, February 19, 2016 12:21 AM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Some Good Ones--most new

Cute, but definitely off topic

Don

--
Don Dellmann
Contact me at:
don.dellmann@...
See my toys at:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

------------------------------------
Posted by: Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...>
------------------------------------

------------------------------------

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Group: vintageHO	Message: 25148	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 2/19/2016
Subject: Re: personal update

Keep telling yourself that. I supposedly retired three years ago, I'm working more now that I ever did!

Don

On 2/19/2016 2:58 PM, Mike Bauers mwbauers55@... [vintageHO] wrote:

Retirement does sound attractive.

If I stay working for a couple of more years I can comfortably have the roof renewed, add in some tools I’ve saved for and finish some home maintenance that is needed as well as build some new-age-tech train modules to take into retirement.

There are some nice goodies I’d like to get before I’m on a retirement income that can help me boost my income. or at least make my modeling more interesting.

Best to ya,

Mike Bauers

Milwaukee, Wi

On Feb 19, 2016, at 2:23 PM, 'Richard Carbo' wrote:

Good luck Mike. Hope it all works out for you. Don’t take offense, but things like this make me appreciate even more that I was able to retire almost seven years ago. Best wishes. Richard Carbo

-- Don Dellmann Contact me at: don.dellmann@... See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25149	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 2/19/2016
Subject: Re: personal update

My Dad warned me about that.

Once the world find out you're retired, they try to make use of all of that spare time you now have.

Best to ya...
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi, USA

On Feb 19, 2016, at 6:29 PM, Don Dellmann wrote:

Keep telling yourself that. I supposedly retired three years ago, I'm working more now that I ever did!

Don

On 2/19/2016 2:58 PM, Mike Bauers mwbauers55@... [vintageHO] wrote:
Retirement does sound attractive.

If I stay working for a couple of more years I can comfortably have the roof renewed, add in some tools I’ve saved for and finish some home maintenance that is needed as well as build some new-age-tech train modules to take into retirement.

There are some nice goodies I’d like to get before I’m on a retirement income that can help me boost my income. or at least make my modeling more interesting.

Best to ya,
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi

On Feb 19, 2016, at 2:23 PM, 'Richard Carbo' wrote:

Good luck Mike. Hope it all works out for you. Don’t take offense, but things like this make me appreciate even more that I was able to retire almost seven years ago. Best wishes. Richard Carbo

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25150	From: Doug Harris	Date: 2/20/2016
Subject: Re: personal update

On 20/02/2016 13:29, Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... [vintageHO]
wrote:

> Keep telling yourself that. I supposedly retired three years ago, I'm
> working more now that I ever did!
> Don

I did too, about 10 of 12 years back - I now have less time than ever!

So many hobby projects, so much reading, so much research for my layout,
so much time on ebay and the net!

And I'm building a new house, and will have my second house-shift in six
months in April..

Don't let retirement fool ya! It ain't easy!

--
Cheers.

Doug Harris
Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25151	From: Jim Waterman	Date: 2/20/2016
Subject: Re: personal update

Ah, retirement - I tried it for 4 months. Very nice, made it through the
holidays, and 3 of my kids decided to go back to college.

Found a part time job that is mostly out of my house, very nice. Thanks
to LinkedIn.

So Friday's are train day, I've learned to build home made switches
using the Fast Tracks templates (very very nice by the way), and
finishing up a friends signalling. Next to come is a complete rebuild of
his steel mill, will be over 25 switches in that section alone. Will be
able to set up an operating schedule that will keep one guy busy all day
just in the mill.

So I found a good trade off, working 20-30 hours a week, little travel
and no daily commute. Work is interesting and I have plenty of time in
the morning and evenings to pursue all my hobbies.

Jim Waterman

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25152	From: Jeff Ellis	Date: 2/20/2016
Subject: Re: global shipping rort

Doug Harris

What is the group called? Group search was not very useful. Might be my age creeping up!!

Reagrds

Jeff Ells

Perth W.A.

On Friday, 19 February 2016, 13:33, "Doug Harris digbee@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

On 19/02/2016 17:47, Ed Weldon 23.weldon@... [vintageHO] wrote:
> I wonder if anyone has started up a Yahoo group for people without
> purchasing and international sales departments to discuss the problems
> of doing business with buyers and sellers in other countries. eBay and
> others. Which countries have their postal act together and/or
> reasonable rates for shipping. Which ones have customs problems.
> Language problems that creep into their for sale adds. Probably others.
> I'd join in a heartbeat. For example why does a modern nation like the
> UK have such high postal rates? Ditto Canada and Australia. Or
> surprise! Brazil's postal system seems to have their act together in
> spite of their national economic problems. Or how best to deal with Paypal.
>
> Big subject. Let's _not_ try to explore the subject on this forum.
> Ed Weldon

Yes they have. Search yahoo groups.

--
Cheers.

Doug Harris
Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25153	From: Jeff Ellis	Date: 2/20/2016
Subject: Re: personal update

Mike

Take care of yourself. I always like your contributions to this group. Sean, yu'll know when it is time to "retire" but you will be busier than ever. Don't ask me how I know!

regards to all

Jeff Ellis

Perth W.A.

On Saturday, 20 February 2016, 8:30, "Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Keep telling yourself that. I supposedly retired three years ago, I'm working more now that I ever did!

Don

On 2/19/2016 2:58 PM, Mike Bauers mwbauers55@... [vintageHO] wrote:

Retirement does sound attractive.

If I stay working for a couple of more years I can comfortably have the roof renewed, add in some tools I’ve saved for and finish some home maintenance that is needed as well as build some new-age-tech train modules to take into retirement.

There are some nice goodies I’d like to get before I’m on a retirement income that can help me boost my income. or at least make my modeling more interesting.

Best to ya,

Mike Bauers

Milwaukee, Wi

On Feb 19, 2016, at 2:23 PM, 'Richard Carbo' wrote:

Good luck Mike. Hope it all works out for you. Don’t take offense, but things like this make me appreciate even more that I was able to retire almost seven years ago. Best wishes. Richard Carbo

--
Don Dellmann
Contact me at:
don.dellmann@...
See my toys at:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25154	From: Graeme	Date: 2/20/2016
Subject: Re: personal update

In message <0bf101d16b5a$2f77e3f0$8e67abd0$@net>, "'Richard Carbo'
flyerguy3@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> writes

>Believe me when I say I thank God every day that I am retired. Life is
>too short. It took a lot of hard work and some sacrifice, but it sure
>is appreciated.

Agreed in spades. We retired a little earlier than planned, due to
certain circumstances, but have no regrets. No new cars, exotic
holidays or world cruises, but we now have the time to catch up with all
the stuff that got pushed to the back burner for so many years. Time to
relax, time to just enjoy life. Yes, it still all gets a bit hectic at
times, but hectic doing things we want to do, rather than have to do.

My daily mantra, whilst out walking the dog :

What is this life if, full of care,
We have no time to stand and stare.
No time to stand beneath the boughs
And stare as long as sheep or cows.
No time to see, when woods we pass,
Where squirrels hide their nuts in grass.
No time to see, in broad daylight,
Streams full of stars, like skies at night.
No time to turn at Beauty's glance,
And watch her feet, how they can dance.
No time to wait till her mouth can
Enrich that smile her eyes began.
A poor life this if, full of care,
We have no time to stand and stare.

--
Graeme, Scotland

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25155	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 2/20/2016
Subject: Re: personal update

TOTALLY and COMPLETELY agree. I learned that one pretty quick. They way it goes is " you aren't doing anything anyway"

Regards, Vic B.

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Mike Bauers mwbauers55@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 20, 2016 1:08 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] personal update

My Dad warned me about that.

Once the world find out you're retired, they try to make use of all of that spare time you now have.

Best to ya...
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi, USA

On Feb 19, 2016, at 6:29 PM, Don Dellmann wrote:

Keep telling yourself that. I supposedly retired three years ago, I'm working more now that I ever did!

Don

On 2/19/2016 2:58 PM, Mike Bauers mwbauers55@... [vintageHO] wrote:

Retirement does sound attractive.

If I stay working for a couple of more years I can comfortably have the roof renewed, add in some tools I’ve saved for and finish some home maintenance that is needed as well as build some new-age-tech train modules to take into retirement.

There are some nice goodies I’d like to get before I’m on a retirement income that can help me boost my income. or at least make my modeling more interesting.

Best to ya,

Mike Bauers

Milwaukee, Wi

On Feb 19, 2016, at 2:23 PM, 'Richard Carbo' wrote:

Good luck Mike. Hope it all works out for you. Don’t take offense, but things like this make me appreciate even more that I was able to retire almost seven years ago. Best wishes. Richard Carbo

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25156	From: Ken Starcher	Date: 2/20/2016
Subject: Re: personal update

I keep telling people I'm busy. I have 30 years worth of projects that I've been putting off until I retire and that time is now. Talk to me when they're done. btw it doesn't work.

Ken A Starcher 1570 Meriline St Cuyahoga Falls OH 44221 330.920.8035

--------------------------------------------

On Sat, 2/20/16, Mike Bauers mwbauers55@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] personal update
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, February 20, 2016, 1:08 AM

My Dad warned me about that.
Once the world find out you're
retired, they try to make use of all of that spare time you
now have.

Best to ya...
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi, USA

On Feb 19, 2016, at 6:29 PM, Don
Dellmann wrote:

Keep telling yourself
that. I supposedly retired three years ago, I'm
working more now that I ever did!

Don

On 2/19/2016 2:58 PM, Mike
Bauers mwbauers55@... [vintageHO]
wrote:
Retirement does sound
attractive.
If I stay working for a couple of
more years I can comfortably have the roof renewed, add in
some tools I’ve saved for and finish some home maintenance
that is needed as well as build some new-age-tech train
modules to take into retirement.
There are some nice goodies I’d
like to get before I’m on a retirement income that can
help me boost my income. or at least make my modeling more
interesting.
Best to ya,Mike BauersMilwaukee,
Wi
On Feb 19, 2016, at 2:23 PM,
'Richard Carbo' wrote:

Good luck Mike. Hope it
all works out for you. Don’t take offense, but things like
this make me appreciate even more that I was able to retire
almost seven years ago. Best wishes. Richard
Carbo

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Group: vintageHO	Message: 25157	From: oklacnw	Date: 2/20/2016
Subject: Diedast 0-6-0

Attachments :

I recently was given several old models to put on e.bay, but I cannot identify this engine.
It heavy diecast with no markings I have been unable to find. I too engine apart, cleaned, oiled, reassembled ant tested. I runs on 5 volts at 2 tenths of a amp on my power supply.
Any ideas?

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25158	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 2/20/2016
Subject: Re: Diedast 0-6-0

With that brass frame….. It’s something like an early Tenshodo, possibly before the several small shops consolidated into Tenshodo, from their cast model years of possibly the late 1940’s. I suspect an exported domestic Japanese model.

A group that deals with early imports can help you on it.

Best to ya,
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi

> On Feb 20, 2016, at 12:56 PM, oklacnw@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>
> I recently was given several old models to put on e.bay, but I cannot identify this engine.
> It heavy diecast with no markings I have been unable to find. I too engine apart, cleaned, oiled, reassembled ant tested. I runs on 5 volts at 2 tenths of a amp on my power supply.
> Any ideas?

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25159	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 2/20/2016
Subject: Re: Diedast 0-6-0

I am pretty sure it is a brass Tenshodo tank switcher.

also, it could be a brass and die cast version? Scroll down a bit at the following page.

http://www.tycoforums.com/tyco/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=11856

Not sure of the value. I haven't seen one on eBay for some time. Start out at $25 or $50 and see where it goes?

Regards, Vic B.

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of oklacnw@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 20, 2016 1:56 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vintageHO] Diedast 0-6-0

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25160	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 2/20/2016
Subject: For/from Sean

I was just browsing on the Tyco Forums and found this attachment from a post made by ‘our’ Sean.

Sean has discovered and is rehabbing a Super-Power version of a Tyco/Mantua Booster.

He’s got a great model going there!

It made me realize that we generally overlook the smaller and less complex models we all had when we were first in the hobby ages ago. Those cute little beasties detail up rather well. the longer you look at this model, the more details of modernization you’ll spot. It even has nice little touches like the painted trim boxing on the cylinder skin, and the traditionally green painted window sashes.

I get flashes of what could be done with a few of these little dears rescued from swap meets and garage sales, even the one on the shelf in the basement I assembled in my college years.….. and it would be pure fun. [I’ve always admired those Elesco tank feed water heaters] Like the PRR’s Fleet of Modernization.

I hope we get to see the number 10 after Sean's shops get through with her.

I’m going to keep my eyes open for a couple of stock engines like her….. and gather up my stock of modeling wires and metal strips. Next for some supplies of number boards, bells and a few other things.

Sean, thanks for showing this vintage model to the world.

Best to ya,

Mike Bauers

Milwaukee, Wi

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25161	From: Doug Harris	Date: 2/20/2016
Subject: Re: global shipping rort

On 20/02/2016 14:37, Jeff Ellis ellisjeff97@... [vintageHO] wrote:

> Doug Harris
> What is the group called? Group search was not very useful. Might be my
> age creeping up!!
> Jeff Ells

Hi Jeff.

I can't remember any specific names, as it's several years since I
unsubscribed from them.

Strings got very long-winded and a chore to read, which is principally
why I unsubscribed, but you could ask questions and get some sensible
answers.

Have you tried google? They know everything!

--
Cheers.

Doug Harris
Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25162	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 2/20/2016
Subject: Re: personal update

That ’s why I want to get my laser cutter, now. To go with the lathe, mill, craft-cutter, 3d printer, resin casting, and computers and printers set-up.

I can make myself so busy at home that I’ll have little spare time.

I think the catch phrase to use is, ‘ I’ve got an order for Australia I need to finish! '

Best to ya,

Mike Bauers

Milwaukee, Wi

On Feb 20, 2016, at 10:43 AM, Victor Bitleris wrote:

TOTALLY and COMPLETELY agree. I learned that one pretty quick. They way it goes is " you aren't doing anything anyway"
Regards, Vic B.

From: Mike B

My Dad warned me about that.

Once the world find out you're retired, they try to make use of all of that spare time you now have.

Best to ya...
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi, USA

On Feb 19, 2016, at 6:29 PM, Don Dellmann wrote:

Keep telling yourself that. I supposedly retired three years ago, I'm working more now that I ever did!

Don

On 2/19/2016 2:58 PM, Mike Bauers mwbauers55@... [vintageHO] wrote:
Retirement does sound attractive.

If I stay working for a couple of more years I can comfortably have the roof renewed, add in some tools I’ve saved for and finish some home maintenance that is needed as well as build some new-age-tech train modules to take into retirement.

There are some nice goodies I’d like to get before I’m on a retirement income that can help me boost my income. or at least make my modeling more interesting.

Best to ya,
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi

On Feb 19, 2016, at 2:23 PM, 'Richard Carbo' wrote:

Good luck Mike. Hope it all works out for you. Don’t take offense, but things like this make me appreciate even more that I was able to retire almost seven years ago. Best wishes. Richard Carbo

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25163	From: trainliker	Date: 2/20/2016
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] personal update

Probably drifting away from topic a bit, but for those who don’t already have some of those tools there may soon be a 3 in 1 tool that does laser cutting, routing, and 3D printing in one unit. Seems like a neat idea the positioning systems only need to be once and do triple duty.

I saw one on American Makers (they didn’t go for it afraid that there is just too much fast paced competition out there) but it might have been this one:

http://3dprintingindustry.com/2015/03/11/all-in-one-3d-printer-cnc-machine-laser-engraver-funded/

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Windows Mail

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: ‎Saturday‎, ‎February‎ ‎20‎, ‎2016 ‎4‎:‎36‎ ‎PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

That ’s why I want to get my laser cutter, now. To go with the lathe, mill, craft-cutter, 3d printer, resin casting, and computers and printers set-up.

I can make myself so busy at home that I’ll have little spare time.

I think the catch phrase to use is, ‘ I’ve got an order for Australia I need to finish! '

Best to ya,

Mike Bauers

Milwaukee, Wi

On Feb 20, 2016, at 10:43 AM, Victor Bitleris wrote:

TOTALLY and COMPLETELY agree. I learned that one pretty quick. They way it goes is " you aren't doing anything anyway"
Regards, Vic B.

From: Mike B

My Dad warned me about that.

Once the world find out you're retired, they try to make use of all of that spare time you now have.

Best to ya...
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi, USA

On Feb 19, 2016, at 6:29 PM, Don Dellmann wrote:

Keep telling yourself that. I supposedly retired three years ago, I'm working more now that I ever did!

Don

On 2/19/2016 2:58 PM, Mike Bauers mwbauers55@... [vintageHO] wrote:
Retirement does sound attractive.

If I stay working for a couple of more years I can comfortably have the roof renewed, add in some tools I’ve saved for and finish some home maintenance that is needed as well as build some new-age-tech train modules to take into retirement.

There are some nice goodies I’d like to get before I’m on a retirement income that can help me boost my income. or at least make my modeling more interesting.

Best to ya,
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi

On Feb 19, 2016, at 2:23 PM, 'Richard Carbo' wrote:

Good luck Mike. Hope it all works out for you. Don’t take offense, but things like this make me appreciate even more that I was able to retire almost seven years ago. Best wishes. Richard Carbo

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25164	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 2/20/2016
Subject: Re: personal update

About time.

Previously, I saw 3d print files in Thingiverse, for printing the conversion mount heads to do the same with a robustly made 3d printer. In general, you use the same 3d print software to do the milling and laser cut operations.

I was quite surprised to see that it was the same printer as I had bought.

In my case, it was a $600 machine I got for $400, you print the two mounts and use the average $100 high-quality laminate cutter or Dremel Tool, and the 2-watt laser head is about $150-$200 with an available 4.5-watt laser at about $350 The tool head mounts will cost you something less than one roll of 3d print filament, which can be a $20 roll.

All based on the robust but less expensive PrintrBot printer line.

These new guys will have a nicely integrated product at higher prices than anyone doing it based on the PrinrBot.

Now if Printrbot continues to expand their line up as they have been doing at the rate of one-two models each year; they can just produce their own versions of the mount heads and sell a similar combined machine in the near future.

KnK sells a $1200 craft cutter with two heads, one head is a powered Mill cutter mount. It’s another machine that can also attach a laser head if one wishes to.

If Dremel wishes, their 3d printer can do much the same with its single head mount.. We would not be surprised if they had one like that up and running in their development shop.

My point is, that a number of these triple-use machines should appear from multiple makers in the next few years.

We will feel to be blessed with many choices before long.

For a bare machine that is now just a 3d printer. Just to illustrate where we are today with multiple basic models….

http://printrbot.com/compare-printers/

Best to ya,

Mike Bauers

Milwaukee, Wi

On Feb 20, 2016, at 6:46 PM, ckinzer wrote:

Probably drifting away from topic a bit, but for those who don’t already have some of those tools there may soon be a 3 in 1 tool that does laser cutting, routing, and 3D printing in one unit. Seems like a neat idea the positioning systems only need to be once and do triple duty.

I saw one on American Makers (they didn’t go for it afraid that there is just too much fast paced competition out there) but it might have been this one:

http://3dprintingindustry.com/2015/03/11/all-in-one-3d-printer-cnc-machine-laser-engraver-funded/

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Windows Mail

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: ‎Saturday‎, ‎February‎ ‎20‎, ‎2016 ‎4‎:‎36‎ ‎PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

That ’s why I want to get my laser cutter, now. To go with the lathe, mill, craft-cutter, 3d printer, resin casting, and computers and printers set-up.

I can make myself so busy at home that I’ll have little spare time.

I think the catch phrase to use is, ‘ I’ve got an order for Australia I need to finish! '

Best to ya,
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi

On Feb 20, 2016, at 10:43 AM, Victor Bitleris wrote:

TOTALLY and COMPLETELY agree. I learned that one pretty quick. They way it goes is " you aren't doing anything anyway"
Regards, Vic B.

From: Mike B

My Dad warned me about that.

Once the world find out you're retired, they try to make use of all of that spare time you now have.

Best to ya...
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi, USA

On Feb 19, 2016, at 6:29 PM, Don Dellmann wrote:

Keep telling yourself that. I supposedly retired three years ago, I'm working more now that I ever did!

Don

On 2/19/2016 2:58 PM, Mike Bauers mwbauers55@... [vintageHO] wrote:
Retirement does sound attractive.

If I stay working for a couple of more years I can comfortably have the roof renewed, add in some tools I’ve saved for and finish some home maintenance that is needed as well as build some new-age-tech train modules to take into retirement.

There are some nice goodies I’d like to get before I’m on a retirement income that can help me boost my income. or at least make my modeling more interesting.

Best to ya,
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi

On Feb 19, 2016, at 2:23 PM, 'Richard Carbo' wrote:

Good luck Mike. Hope it all works out for you. Don’t take offense, but things like this make me appreciate even more that I was able to retire almost seven years ago. Best wishes. Richard Carbo

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25165	From: Ken Starcher	Date: 2/20/2016
Subject: Re: personal update

I'll keep and eye out to see if someone does the same for the Lolzbot. I'm thinking about getting a craft cutter. Maybe I won't rush. Thanks for all the good info and trust that by now you're recovered well enough from your maladies.

Ken A Starcher 1570 Meriline St Cuyahoga Falls OH 44221 330.920.8035

--------------------------------------------

On Sat, 2/20/16, Mike Bauers mwbauers55@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] personal update
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, February 20, 2016, 8:41 PM

About time.
Previously, I saw 3d print files
in Thingiverse, for printing the conversion mount heads to
do the same with a robustly made 3d printer. In general, you
use the same 3d print software to do the milling and laser
cut operations.
I was quite surprised to see that
it was the same printer as I had bought.
In my case, it was a $600 machine
I got for $400, you print the two mounts and use the average
$100 high-quality laminate cutter or Dremel Tool, and the
2-watt laser head is about $150-$200 with an available
4.5-watt laser at about $350 The tool head mounts will cost
you something less than one roll of 3d print filament, which
can be a $20 roll.
All based on the robust but less
expensive PrintrBot printer line.
These new guys will have a nicely
integrated product at higher prices than anyone doing it
based on the PrinrBot.
Now if Printrbot continues to
expand their line up as they have been doing at the rate of
one-two models each year; they can just produce their own
versions of the mount heads and sell a similar combined
machine in the near future.
KnK sells a $1200 craft cutter
with two heads, one head is a powered Mill cutter mount.
It’s another machine that can also attach a laser head if
one wishes to.
If Dremel wishes, their 3d
printer can do much the same with its single head mount.. We
would not be surprised if they had one like that up and
running in their development shop.
My point is, that a number of
these triple-use machines should appear from multiple makers
in the next few years.
We will feel to be blessed with
many choices before long.
For a bare machine that is now
just a 3d printer. Just to illustrate where we are today
with multiple basic models….
http://printrbot.com/compare-printers/

Best to ya,Mike BauersMilwaukee, Wi

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25166	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 2/20/2016
Subject: Re: personal update

Thanks, I’m mostly doing well. I can tell I need to knit a bit more. But that’s ok !

I can definitely tell since the surgery that my health is improved to a nice degree in many ways.

As to my bad luck to catching a bad cold now to keep me away from the big Madison train show… Well Dang the luck.

Instead, I’ll do some delayed set-up on some computers that combine to make the network for designing and machining from the assorted tools I’ve gathered up.

A couple of weeks ago that was a full scan of the 1972 Walthers passenger car planbook. Part of that dreaming about how to get those cars I’ve missed on, and can’t get otherwise. And if I clean up a side of a certain room, in there are the very hard to get and now rare proposed C&O turbine powered sort-a Aerotrain link pocket streamliner published plans of the 1950’s, that were released as part of a national contest to have models of the train built by the public.

“ Train "X" was a product of C&O's research department. Cars were about one-third as long as standard cars, much lower, and had two wheels each. They hooked together like semi-trailers. They were supposedly less likely to derail. Air conditioning and other auxiliary equipment were in the headend power car instead of under car floors. The locomotive turned out to be a "bummer", but the concept re-emerged several years later as the United Aircraft Turbotrain. His point was that conventional equipment was too expensive. “

I’ll attach two version drawings.

I’d love to see a model version operating that is about as long as in the illustration. Maybe I’ll concentrate upon finding that set of drawings tomorrow?

It’s one more reason for that wanted laser cutter.

Best to ya,

Mike Bauers

Milwaukee, Wi

On Feb 20, 2016, at 8:49 PM, Ken Starcher wrote:

I'll keep and eye out to see if someone does the same for the Lolzbot. I'm thinking about getting a craft cutter. Maybe I won't rush. Thanks for all the good info and trust that by now you're recovered well enough from your maladies.

Ken A Starcher

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25167	From: Ed Weldon	Date: 2/20/2016
Subject: Re: personal update>>modern tools

With all due respect to Mike Bauers and his marvelously creative mind I
have to say that you guys interested in Vintage HO be cautious. Should
you want to extend a major area of your hobby interest into innovating
new ways of model building by all means go for it. If a method you find
is the best way to get a vintage model to a better state that's great.
And worthy of disclosure to everyone.
But don't fool yourself into believing modern fabrication methods will
substantially improve the vintage model world as a whole unless they
provide a path to counter materials degradation like aging adhesives,
corrosion, mold attack, zinc pest and the like. While a modern
fabrication methods may produce improvements in the "quality" of a
vintage model they will compromise it's originality and thus be
unacceptable to some. We've seen it in the antique car world. It's not
a specific hobby thing. It comes from elements of human nature. As far
as duplicating vintage models with modern methods. This will please some
but not all.
The other point I'd try to make is there is nothing wrong with exploring
new computer based fab methods. But there is a price to pay in
equipment, material and time. And this will be mostly in addition to
your modeling resource expenditures. Especially time. And then there is
the issue of precision. You get what you pay for. The payment is some
combination of dollars and skill development including secondary
operations in finishing the part. The current new 3d machines including
the multi machines may be low cost largely because they are aimed at a
penurious hobby market mostly consisting of folks who want to make toys
and decorations.
We are surrounded in our consumer world with numerous examples of
mechanical precision that we neither recognize nor understand. We take
them for granted not fully recognizing that the machines that produce
them are marvels of mechanical precision and are only practical because
their costs can be amortized over thousands or millions of individual
products. It takes a lot to duplicate this in a home workshop. I don't
see the current generation of hobby fabricating machines changing that a
lot. Yes, they enable easy production of some complex shapes. That is
their forte. But if you want real precision you are going to have to
pay for it.
Ed Weldon

Afterthought here FWIW. Ed Weldon is certainly not a great model
builder. But mechanical precision was the biggest part of my 42 year
mechanical engineering career. I understood precision in the design of
machines and the methods to manufacture them. It brought my family a
good life and paid for some really cool toys.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25168	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 2/20/2016
Subject: Re: personal update

Chuck,

While I'm not focusing directly on your message here, your opening statement forces me to remind everyone concerned that this thread of 20 or so messages has become increasingly (WAY) Off-Topic. So much so that I'm extremely surprised that Don has put up with it up until now. While it may be interesting to read, only because this is all a completely new concept in producing models, it just does not belong here on this Group. Laser cutting, 3-D printing and even resin casting do not belong here any more than retirement plans do -- and even much less so. While it's all made for some activity on this Group, some of us would rather discuss the more "novel" subject of vintage HO, if it's remembered by all concerned that this has been this forum's purpose. PLEASE take this topic elsewhere if it's not yet finished.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/20/2016 7:53:40 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Probably drifting away from topic a bit, but for those who don’t already have some of those tools there may soon be a 3 in 1 tool that does laser cutting, routing, and 3D printing in one unit. Seems like a neat idea the positioning systems only need to be once and do triple duty.

I saw one on American Makers (they didn’t go for it afraid that there is just too much fast paced competition out there) but it might have been this one:

http://3dprintingindustry.com/2015/03/11/all-in-one-3d-printer-cnc-machine-laser-engraver-funded/

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Windows Mail

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: ‎Saturday‎, ‎February‎ ‎20‎, ‎2016 ‎4‎:‎36‎ ‎PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

That ’s why I want to get my laser cutter, now. To go with the lathe, mill, craft-cutter, 3d printer, resin casting, and computers and printers set-up.

I can make myself so busy at home that I’ll have little spare time.

I think the catch phrase to use is, ‘ I’ve got an order for Australia I need to finish! '

Best to ya,

Mike Bauers

Milwaukee, Wi

On Feb 20, 2016, at 10:43 AM, Victor Bitleris wrote:

TOTALLY and COMPLETELY agree. I learned that one pretty quick. They way it goes is " you aren't doing anything anyway"

Regards, Vic B.

From: Mike B

My Dad warned me about that.

Once the world find out you're retired, they try to make use of all of that spare time you now have.

Best to ya...
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi, USA

On Feb 19, 2016, at 6:29 PM, Don Dellmann wrote:

Keep telling yourself that. I supposedly retired three years ago, I'm working more now that I ever did!

Don

On 2/19/2016 2:58 PM, Mike Bauers mwbauers55@... [vintageHO] wrote:

Retirement does sound attractive.

If I stay working for a couple of more years I can comfortably have the roof renewed, add in some tools I’ve saved for and finish some home maintenance that is needed as well as build some new-age-tech train modules to take into retirement.

There are some nice goodies I’d like to get before I’m on a retirement income that can help me boost my income. or at least make my modeling more interesting.

Best to ya,

Mike Bauers

Milwaukee, Wi

On Feb 19, 2016, at 2:23 PM, 'Richard Carbo' wrote:

Good luck Mike. Hope it all works out for you. Don’t take offense, but things like this make me appreciate even more that I was able to retire almost seven years ago. Best wishes. Richard Carbo

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25169	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 2/21/2016
Subject: Re: personal update>>modern tools

My favorite dreamed of wanted tool would be a Star Trek replicator that can precisely make a compete Walthers Shuttle Jack in all the right materials right down to specific alloys, thicknesses, and wood grain.

But I can't wait for one of those.

I most recently dream of a particular compact laser scanner that when attached to a smart phone, for about the sticker price of $300 can make very finely resolved ready to 3d print files for your choice of any 3d printer.

A couple of months ago it wasn't possible, today it exists.

A year ago the closest scanner to this ability cost almost $3,000

This does make it into a push button scan and print series of steps.

This stuff is catching up with our dreams. I don't think any of it can replace true collectable Vintage HO. .

But for anything that you wanted ages ago and missed out on by decades then, now you are on the edge of having it in terms of something very much like it.

Got your Dad's old treasured Pennline 0-4-0 diesel switcher that is dying from white metal rot? A computer buff can clean up a 3d scan of the treasure removing the rot and a clean body can be 3d printed in metal if you'd like.

There are valid applications of the new tech to make use of.

There's always the more traditional casting methods of completing some partial Vintage models that were saved from the trash and can be fully restored with duplicates of the surviving parts. Like the box of old Walthers passenger cars that a local club was throwing away, that were missing assorted doors, platform steps, bolsters, and a couple of cast ends as well as several roof details.

Among the several carcasses are those details. Just not enough to have all cars in competed condition.

But a standard RTV casting kit fixes that from the assorted present parts. Originals can't be found. But your cloned parts bring all of the cars into fully usable condition.

Like that pair of HO Varney cast metal F7's many of us have kept around even though the engine roof sections were lost by someone else long ago. Cast one that we have and those F7 shells no longer hide on the Dead Shelf in the train room.

You guys do know all this in one way or another.

Going several steps away from the issue...

We are designing and will be building radical hyperspace space craft following the principles technically proven by Albert Einstein some decades ago. It's a pity he couldn't build them. But we are going to build them in line with his discoveries anyway. One of those drives is a genuine Warp drive that can travel to nearest star in about two weeks. It works in the lab, it is expected to be a real ship fleet in about 80 years by the several International teams that are working now on the complete ship development, in about their tenth year of the project today.

Last month they found proof of theorized gravity waves that are critical components of performing Time Travel. The dream achievements continue.

Along with these are two approaches to light speed drives that work so far in the labs.

Maybe I'm wandering too far....

Consider that Galileo test flew the first airplane around 1500, give or take a century without my checking the date.....

Isn't it a great thing that we didn't leave it at only his Vintage Flyer and went to create tens of thousands of more sophisticated series of flying machines using hundreds of series of quite different power units that the builder of the original never dreamed of existing?

Well, that new 3d scanner is on my birthday list for this year and there are a number of partial Vintage items here, that will become complete through it.

In a couple of cases, it will allow me to keep the originals as they are, while I do further work to improve the cloned copies.

The Vintage originals remain untouched this way.

Ever see a pair of the 1950's Rivarossi Hiawatha bodies that never got painted nor used? That's them.

Mike Bauers
Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 21, 2016, at 12:41 AM, "Ed Weldon 23.weldon@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>
> With all due respect to Mike Bauers and his marvelously creative mind I
> have to say that you guys interested in Vintage HO be cautious. Should
> you want to extend a major area of your hobby interest into innovating
> new ways of model building by all means go for it. If a method you find
> is the best way to get a vintage model to a better state that's great.
> And worthy of disclosure to everyone.
> But don't fool yourself into believing modern fabrication methods will
> substantially improve the vintage model world as a whole unless they
> provide a path to counter materials degradation like aging adhesives,
> corrosion, mold attack, zinc pest and the like. While a modern
> fabrication methods may produce improvements in the "quality" of a
> vintage model they will compromise it's originality and thus be
> unacceptable to some. We've seen it in the antique car world. It's not
> a specific hobby thing. It comes from elements of human nature. As far
> as duplicating vintage models with modern methods. This will please some
> but not all.
> The other point I'd try to make is there is nothing wrong with exploring
> new computer based fab methods. But there is a price to pay in
> equipment, material and time. And this will be mostly in addition to
> your modeling resource expenditures. Especially time. And then there is
> the issue of precision. You get what you pay for. The payment is some
> combination of dollars and skill development including secondary
> operations in finishing the part. The current new 3d machines including
> the multi machines may be low cost largely because they are aimed at a
> penurious hobby market mostly consisting of folks who want to make toys
> and decorations.
> We are surrounded in our consumer world with numerous examples of
> mechanical precision that we neither recognize nor understand. We take
> them for granted not fully recognizing that the machines that produce
> them are marvels of mechanical precision and are only practical because
> their costs can be amortized over thousands or millions of individual
> products. It takes a lot to duplicate this in a home workshop. I don't
> see the current generation of hobby fabricating machines changing that a
> lot. Yes, they enable easy production of some complex shapes. That is
> their forte. But if you want real precision you are going to have to
> pay for it.
> Ed Weldon
>
> Afterthought here FWIW. Ed Weldon is certainly not a great model
> builder. But mechanical precision was the biggest part of my 42 year
> mechanical engineering career. I understood precision in the design of
> machines and the methods to manufacture them. It brought my family a
> good life and paid for some really cool toys.
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
> Posted by: Ed Weldon <23.weldon@...>
> ------------------------------------
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo Groups Links
>
>
>

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25170	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 2/21/2016
Subject: Re: personal update

Hi Ray,

I sort of started this.

I think it's well talked out by now and we'll move to the usual stuff.

It's mainly my fault.

I pursue the unusual and not often mainstream vintage stuff.

Often those are remnants and not complete from their origination.

So I pursue ways of completing them with no hopes of ever getting the rest of them to have pure Vintage models.

It's mostly with pure intentions.

For example, what solution would you chase for doing something operable with a pair of never painted nor assembled Rivarossi 1950 made Hiawatha 4-4-2 (RR factory 4-4-4) body shell sets, or a pair of Dixon models HH-600's with no owner chassis, or some TMER&L and CNS&M HO trolleys made by hand by the founder of LaBelle that never got motors.

Well I have solutions that won't remake them into complete originals. But they will be well working models.

And while the RR Hia's will be applied, the originals that they are will remain as they are. Their kin will have a better existence standing in for them.

The Dixons and Nienow-LaBelles will get unobtrusive modern drives that won't do any damage to the rare works.

I recently got the drives for the Dixons and finally decided on what drives for the N-L's

While I'm not straight mainstream, I am one of the gang in spirit.

Mike Bauers

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 21, 2016, at 1:40 AM, "eriepacific@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Chuck,

While I'm not focusing directly on your message here, your opening statement forces me to remind everyone concerned that this thread of 20 or so messages has become increasingly (WAY) Off-Topic. So much so that I'm extremely surprised that Don has put up with it up until now. While it may be interesting to read, only because this is all a completely new concept in producing models, it just does not belong here on this Group. Laser cutting, 3-D printing and even resin casting do not belong here any more than retirement plans do -- and even much less so. While it's all made for some activity on this Group, some of us would rather discuss the more "novel" subject of vintage HO, if it's remembered by all concerned that this has been this forum's purpose. PLEASE take this topic elsewhere if it's not yet finished.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/20/2016 7:53:40 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Probably drifting away from topic a bit, but for those who don’t already have some of those tools there may soon be a 3 in 1 tool that does laser cutting, routing, and 3D printing in one unit. Seems like a neat idea the positioning systems only need to be once and do triple duty.

I saw one on American Makers (they didn’t go for it afraid that there is just too much fast paced competition out there) but it might have been this one:

http://3dprintingindustry.com/2015/03/11/all-in-one-3d-printer-cnc-machine-laser-engraver-funded/

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25171	From: oklacnw	Date: 2/21/2016
Subject: Re: Diedast 0-6-0

OK, so now I know what that one screw under the boiler is for- to hold the running boards which are missing. Thanks, guys.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25172	From: oklacnw	Date: 2/21/2016
Subject: Re: Diedast 0-6-0

Attachments :

Here are 3 more photos of the diecast 0-6-0. Definitely cast body.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25173	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 2/21/2016
Subject: Re: personal update

Hi Mike,

Yeah, I guess you may have been partly responsible for this Off-Topic thread. I do hope you're feeling much better soon with that bad cold you have, though. I see you posted yet another O/T message right after I asked you guys only an hour ago, to please cease from posting these types of messages. Don asked everyone to stop posting O/T messages only a few days ago -- and you guys have picked this right up again as soon as a few days have gone by, as if nothing was ever asked of you. I'm not trying to be hard-line here, but your recent discussions are not at all related to vintage models.

I understand that many of us would enjoy having a Rivarrosi Hiawatha or a pre-War Walthers/Taylor MILW "Baltic" Hudson like Denny wrote about in his most recent message. Many of these messages do not even include a mention about any of these early models but just go right into discussions on creating models via these very new methods. These 3-D models are just not vintage no matter how hard we'd wish them to be. They can become very nice reproductions, and I hope you can get to create some for yourself, but they're no comparison to the originals built 60 or 70 years ago and the "atmosphere" they create is far removed from the earlier manufacturers' products. Except that lasers and 3-D printers may be able to recreate something similar, I see no purpose in using this Group -- having the intent to concern itself with (actual/original) vintage H0 models -- as a platform to go into talks about these modern up to date methods. For one thing -- they just won't bring back that old H0 models that we all enjoy(ed) so much.

I don't know what the majority of the membership prefers reading here, but I'm on this group to discuss those very same models that this Group was created for. While I don't mind reading about your modern model-building methods, I don't wish to see them on here, no matter that I have a delete button to quickly remove them; they do not belong here. Many thanks,

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/21/2016 4:19:44 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Hi Ray,

I sort of started this.

I think it's well talked out by now and we'll move to the usual stuff.

It's mainly my fault.

I pursue the unusual and not often mainstream vintage stuff.

Often those are remnants and not complete from their origination.

So I pursue ways of completing them with no hopes of ever getting the rest of them to have pure Vintage models.

It's mostly with pure intentions.

For example, what solution would you chase for doing something operable with a pair of never painted nor assembled Rivarossi 1950 made Hiawatha 4-4-2 (RR factory 4-4-4) body shell sets, or a pair of Dixon models HH-600's with no owner chassis, or some TMER&L and CNS&M HO trolleys made by hand by the founder of LaBelle that never got motors.

Well I have solutions that won't remake them into complete originals. But they will be well working models.

And while the RR Hia's will be applied, the originals that they are will remain as they are. Their kin will have a better existence standing in for them.

The Dixons and Nienow-LaBelles will get unobtrusive modern drives that won't do any damage to the rare works.

I recently got the drives for the Dixons and finally decided on what drives for the N-L's

While I'm not straight mainstream, I am one of the gang in spirit.
Mike Bauers
Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 21, 2016, at 1:40 AM, "eriepacific@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Chuck,

While I'm not focusing directly on your message here, your opening statement forces me to remind everyone concerned that this thread of 20 or so messages has become increasingly (WAY) Off-Topic. So much so that I'm extremely surprised that Don has put up with it up until now. While it may be interesting to read, only because this is all a completely new concept in producing models, it just does not belong here on this Group. Laser cutting, 3-D printing and even resin casting do not belong here any more than retirement plans do -- and even much less so. While it's all made for some activity on this Group, some of us would rather discuss the more "novel" subject of vintage HO, if it's remembered by all concerned that this has been this forum's purpose. PLEASE take this topic elsewhere if it's not yet finished.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/20/2016 7:53:40 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Probably drifting away from topic a bit, but for those who don’t already have some of those tools there may soon be a 3 in 1 tool that does laser cutting, routing, and 3D printing in one unit. Seems like a neat idea the positioning systems only need to be once and do triple duty.

I saw one on American Makers (they didn’t go for it afraid that there is just too much fast paced competition out there) but it might have been this one:

http://3dprintingindustry.com/2015/03/11/all-in-one-3d-printer-cnc-machine-laser-engraver-funded/

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25174	From: luvprr2003	Date: 2/21/2016
Subject: Re: personal update

Hi, Ray,

Gotta watch it. Complaining (or is it just judiciously making observations? ) about O/T threads can easily be interpreted as sour grapes. I haven't been closely following these discussions as I too am not privy to many of the upscale tools and methods and thinking in reference to vintage items, but I think I've noticed some contributions from folks I haven't heard from in the past, and it's possible that there are some gray areas that have encouraged some people to come out of the woodwork--so to speak. As long as vintage models and such are being referred to--even very indirectly--I can't really see the problem. Some of us (being very vintage ourselves) prefer to remain in a relatively narrow concept of "mainstream," but I think we need to have some room in this group for some ideas and such that some of us have not considered or even been aware of in the PAST. I totally understand the pride that we old timers have in our methods and such, and I've dismissed a few of the more contemporary ideas from some of these guys with a sniff but find some of their stuff kinda interesting--if not fascinating.

Just love playing the devil's advocate here once in awhile--as we all do!

Art Waite

In a message dated 2/21/2016 5:16:22 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Hi Mike,

Yeah, I guess you may have been partly responsible for this Off-Topic thread. I do hope you're feeling much better soon with that bad cold you have, though. I see you posted yet another O/T message right after I asked you guys only an hour ago, to please cease from posting these types of messages. Don asked everyone to stop posting O/T messages only a few days ago -- and you guys have picked this right up again as soon as a few days have gone by, as if nothing was ever asked of you. I'm not trying to be hard-line here, but your recent discussions are not at all related to vintage models.

I understand that many of us would enjoy having a Rivarrosi Hiawatha or a pre-War Walthers/Taylor MILW "Baltic" Hudson like Denny wrote about in his most recent message. Many of these messages do not even include a mention about any of these early models but just go right into discussions on creating models via these very new methods. These 3-D models are just not vintage no matter how hard we'd wish them to be. They can become very nice reproductions, and I hope you can get to create some for yourself, but they're no comparison to the originals built 60 or 70 years ago and the "atmosphere" they create is far removed from the earlier manufacturers' products. Except that lasers and 3-D printers may be able to recreate something similar, I see no purpose in using this Group -- having the intent to concern itself with (actual/original) vintage H0 models -- as a platform to go into talks about these modern up to date methods. For one thing -- they just won't bring back that old H0 models that we all enjoy(ed) so much.

I don't know what the majority of the membership prefers reading here, but I'm on this group to discuss those very same models that this Group was created for. While I don't mind reading about your modern model-building methods, I don't wish to see them on here, no matter that I have a delete button to quickly remove them; they do not belong here. Many thanks,

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/21/2016 4:19:44 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Hi Ray,

I sort of started this.

I think it's well talked out by now and we'll move to the usual stuff.

It's mainly my fault.

I pursue the unusual and not often mainstream vintage stuff.

Often those are remnants and not complete from their origination.

So I pursue ways of completing them with no hopes of ever getting the rest of them to have pure Vintage models.

It's mostly with pure intentions.

For example, what solution would you chase for doing something operable with a pair of never painted nor assembled Rivarossi 1950 made Hiawatha 4-4-2 (RR factory 4-4-4) body shell sets, or a pair of Dixon models HH-600's with no owner chassis, or some TMER&L and CNS&M HO trolleys made by hand by the founder of LaBelle that never got motors.

Well I have solutions that won't remake them into complete originals. But they will be well working models.

And while the RR Hia's will be applied, the originals that they are will remain as they are. Their kin will have a better existence standing in for them.

The Dixons and Nienow-LaBelles will get unobtrusive modern drives that won't do any damage to the rare works.

I recently got the drives for the Dixons and finally decided on what drives for the N-L's

While I'm not straight mainstream, I am one of the gang in spirit.
Mike Bauers
Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 21, 2016, at 1:40 AM, "eriepacific@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Chuck,

While I'm not focusing directly on your message here, your opening statement forces me to remind everyone concerned that this thread of 20 or so messages has become increasingly (WAY) Off-Topic. So much so that I'm extremely surprised that Don has put up with it up until now. While it may be interesting to read, only because this is all a completely new concept in producing models, it just does not belong here on this Group. Laser cutting, 3-D printing and even resin casting do not belong here any more than retirement plans do -- and even much less so. While it's all made for some activity on this Group, some of us would rather discuss the more "novel" subject of vintage HO, if it's remembered by all concerned that this has been this forum's purpose. PLEASE take this topic elsewhere if it's not yet finished.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/20/2016 7:53:40 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Probably drifting away from topic a bit, but for those who don’t already have some of those tools there may soon be a 3 in 1 tool that does laser cutting, routing, and 3D printing in one unit. Seems like a neat idea the positioning systems only need to be once and do triple duty.

I saw one on American Makers (they didn’t go for it afraid that there is just too much fast paced competition out there) but it might have been this one:

http://3dprintingindustry.com/2015/03/11/all-in-one-3d-printer-cnc-machine-laser-engraver-funded/

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25175	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 2/21/2016
Subject: Re: personal update

Hi Art,

Thanks for your reply to my previous message; I do appreciate it. While I've heard the term, "sour grapes," in the past, before I got back to you on this suggestion you're airing on how my "observations" might be interpreted, I thought I'd find out exactly what the definition of this meant. It's noted to mean that I might have a negative attitude about these modern methods (laser cutting, 3-D printing, etc.) of reproducing older models because I can't do this myself.

Actually, and to tell you the honest-to-God's truth, I do not at all want to be part of using these modern techniques to reproduced early H0 trains or for any other reason; it has no appeal to me. I have no use what-so-ever for 3-D printing, laser cutting and the like -- UNLESS it can reproduce U.S. currency (LOL).

Complaining??? Not any more than I feel is just not warranted here. This is not the correct venue for getting into these discussions as they are no longer even being associated with early model trains as they advance in just model production using these new techniques, even getting away from vintage H0. Unless you'd choose to use such upscale tools yourself, I doubt that you're missing much. As I have no interest in these modern tools myself, I know I'm not missing anything that would be of interest to me.

Yes, you're quite correct; I too have seen contributions to this topic from members I haven't seen post in the past. I wish I could see them continue with more pertinent matter, directed at the purpose for this Group. You make a point (valid or not) in there being some gray areas, my friend, but the more these discussions elevate the further they get away from referring to vintage models. For those members wanting to discuss upscale tools further, it might be prudent for them to start a Yahoo Group pertaining to this topic, and with a benefit to all interested in such matters, as I don't see it as having any place here. It just does not fit in with vintage models and their discussions. It's difficult at best, to discuss the older models and these newest reproductions in the same light, as obviously one has little to nothing in common, and today's concepts and upscale-tool-produced models are not the same as the vintage models this Group was set up to discuss.

As for some of us remaining in the "relatively narrow concept of 'mainstream," please let me remind you that this Group you chose to join concerns just this same "narrow" concept specifically of vintage (HO) models -- not today's models, nor 1990's models, nor 1980's models. Not trying to be a stickler here for being right on topic, and more contemporary ideas may always have some interest, but that's not what THIS group is about -- despite the fact that other ideas may be "interesting" -- even fascinating. We joined, fully expecting that this was all about the H0 models that were the hobby over half a century ago, and that we remember when many of us first got started in H0 railroad modeling.

If we're to entertain all concepts here, then why have it as a vintage-discussion group? Why don't we open it up to ALL concepts??? -- if this is what's preferred ! . . . and I say this as John Allen would, as tongue-in-cheek.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/21/2016 6:57:08 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Hi, Ray,

Just love playing the devil's advocate here once in awhile--as we all do!

Art Waite

In a message dated 2/21/2016 5:16:22 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Hi Mike,

Yeah, I guess you may have been partly responsible for this Off-Topic thread. I do hope you're feeling much better soon with that bad cold you have, though. I see you posted yet another O/T message right after I asked you guys only an hour ago, to please cease from posting these types of messages. Don asked everyone to stop posting O/T messages only a few days ago -- and you guys have picked this right up again as soon as a few days have gone by, as if nothing was ever asked of you. I'm not trying to be hard-line here, but your recent discussions are not at all related to vintage models.

I understand that many of us would enjoy having a Rivarrosi Hiawatha or a pre-War Walthers/Taylor MILW "Baltic" Hudson like Denny wrote about in his most recent message. Many of these messages do not even include a mention about any of these early models but just go right into discussions on creating models via these very new methods. These 3-D models are just not vintage no matter how hard we'd wish them to be. They can become very nice reproductions, and I hope you can get to create some for yourself, but they're no comparison to the originals built 60 or 70 years ago and the "atmosphere" they create is far removed from the earlier manufacturers' products. Except that lasers and 3-D printers may be able to recreate something similar, I see no purpose in using this Group -- having the intent to concern itself with (actual/original) vintage H0 models -- as a platform to go into talks about these modern up to date methods. For one thing -- they just won't bring back that old H0 models that we all enjoy(ed) so much.

I don't know what the majority of the membership prefers reading here, but I'm on this group to discuss those very same models that this Group was created for. While I don't mind reading about your modern model-building methods, I don't wish to see them on here, no matter that I have a delete button to quickly remove them; they do not belong here. Many thanks,

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/21/2016 4:19:44 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Hi Ray,

I sort of started this.

I think it's well talked out by now and we'll move to the usual stuff.

It's mainly my fault.

I pursue the unusual and not often mainstream vintage stuff.

Often those are remnants and not complete from their origination.

So I pursue ways of completing them with no hopes of ever getting the rest of them to have pure Vintage models.

It's mostly with pure intentions.

For example, what solution would you chase for doing something operable with a pair of never painted nor assembled Rivarossi 1950 made Hiawatha 4-4-2 (RR factory 4-4-4) body shell sets, or a pair of Dixon models HH-600's with no owner chassis, or some TMER&L and CNS&M HO trolleys made by hand by the founder of LaBelle that never got motors.

Well I have solutions that won't remake them into complete originals. But they will be well working models.

And while the RR Hia's will be applied, the originals that they are will remain as they are. Their kin will have a better existence standing in for them.

The Dixons and Nienow-LaBelles will get unobtrusive modern drives that won't do any damage to the rare works.

I recently got the drives for the Dixons and finally decided on what drives for the N-L's

While I'm not straight mainstream, I am one of the gang in spirit.
Mike Bauers
Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 21, 2016, at 1:40 AM, "eriepacific@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Chuck,

While I'm not focusing directly on your message here, your opening statement forces me to remind everyone concerned that this thread of 20 or so messages has become increasingly (WAY) Off-Topic. So much so that I'm extremely surprised that Don has put up with it up until now. While it may be interesting to read, only because this is all a completely new concept in producing models, it just does not belong here on this Group. Laser cutting, 3-D printing and even resin casting do not belong here any more than retirement plans do -- and even much less so. While it's all made for some activity on this Group, some of us would rather discuss the more "novel" subject of vintage HO, if it's remembered by all concerned that this has been this forum's purpose. PLEASE take this topic elsewhere if it's not yet finished.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/20/2016 7:53:40 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Probably drifting away from topic a bit, but for those who don’t already have some of those tools there may soon be a 3 in 1 tool that does laser cutting, routing, and 3D printing in one unit. Seems like a neat idea the positioning systems only need to be once and do triple duty.

I saw one on American Makers (they didn’t go for it afraid that there is just too much fast paced competition out there) but it might have been this one:

http://3dprintingindustry.com/2015/03/11/all-in-one-3d-printer-cnc-machine-laser-engraver-funded/

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25176	From: willard seehorn	Date: 2/21/2016
Subject: Off topic posts [was] personal update

I tend to agree with both sides in this one. Perhaps a new group "21st Century Antique trains" or "Old Trains, New Techniques"?

If I get enough direct messages (wseehorn (at) earthlink) (dot) net I'll set it up.

Willard

-----Original Message-----

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25177	From: Bob Macklin	Date: 2/21/2016
Subject: Dockside VS Booster?

How does the Mantua Booster compare to the Varney Dockside?

When was the Booster first produced? I have a couple full metal Boosters. But both major repair work. I've also got a couple of all metal Shifters.

I also have a Model Power Booster. I plan to see what the part interchangeability is.

So is the Booster a viable alternative to the Dockside. I do have both. But no operational track right now.

Bob Macklin

Seattle, Wa

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25178	From: nvrr49	Date: 2/21/2016
Subject: Yank Models Water Tank

I recently completed an vintage water tower kit, Nirvana Valley Model Railroad: Yank Models Water Tower, a Vintage Kit


			Nirvana Valley Model Railroad: Yank Models Wat... I picked this up last year at an estate sale at the Mid America Train and Toy Show at the KCI Expo Center.
			View on nvrr49.blogspot.com	Preview by Yahoo

Kent in KC

nvrr49.blogspot.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25179	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 2/21/2016
Subject: Re: personal update

So Mike;

WE gonna see some of these ideas in the flesh at the Cedarburg show? ( remember, that's only 2 weeks from today).

Please come so I can womp you upside the head for being off topic

>:o

Seriously, you have been going a little overboard lately. I've kind of put up with it because I've been hearing these ideas for the last 20 years so I'm used to it. ;-)

Don

On 2/21/2016 3:19 AM, Mike Bauers mwbauers55@... [vintageHO] wrote:

Hi Ray,

I sort of started this.

I think it's well talked out by now and we'll move to the usual stuff.

It's mainly my fault.

I pursue the unusual and not often mainstream vintage stuff.

Often those are remnants and not complete from their origination.

So I pursue ways of completing them with no hopes of ever getting the rest of them to have pure Vintage models.

It's mostly with pure intentions.

For example, what solution would you chase for doing something operable with a pair of never painted nor assembled Rivarossi 1950 made Hiawatha 4-4-2 (RR factory 4-4-4) body shell sets, or a pair of Dixon models HH-600's with no owner chassis, or some TMER&L and CNS&M HO trolleys made by hand by the founder of LaBelle that never got motors.

Well I have solutions that won't remake them into complete originals. But they will be well working models.

And while the RR Hia's will be applied, the originals that they are will remain as they are. Their kin will have a better existence standing in for them.

The Dixons and Nienow-LaBelles will get unobtrusive modern drives that won't do any damage to the rare works.

I recently got the drives for the Dixons and finally decided on what drives for the N-L's

While I'm not straight mainstream, I am one of the gang in spirit.
Mike Bauers
Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 21, 2016, at 1:40 AM, "eriepacific@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Chuck,

While I'm not focusing directly on your message here, your opening statement forces me to remind everyone concerned that this thread of 20 or so messages has become increasingly (WAY) Off-Topic. So much so that I'm extremely surprised that Don has put up with it up until now. While it may be interesting to read, only because this is all a completely new concept in producing models, it just does not belong here on this Group. Laser cutting, 3-D printing and even resin casting do not belong here any more than retirement plans do -- and even much less so. While it's all made for some activity on this Group, some of us would rather discuss the more "novel" subject of vintage HO, if it's remembered by all concerned that this has been this forum's purpose. PLEASE take this topic elsewhere if it's not yet finished.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/20/2016 7:53:40 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Probably drifting away from topic a bit, but for those who don’t already have some of those tools there may soon be a 3 in 1 tool that does laser cutting, routing, and 3D printing in one unit. Seems like a neat idea the positioning systems only need to be once and do triple duty.

I saw one on American Makers (they didn’t go for it afraid that there is just too much fast paced competition out there) but it might have been this one:

http://3dprintingindustry.com/2015/03/11/all-in-one-3d-printer-cnc-machine-laser-engraver-funded/

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

-- Don Dellmann Contact me at: don.dellmann@... See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25180	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 2/21/2016
Subject: Re: Dockside VS Booster?

Bob,

As I've always liked my Varney Docksides, I've never owned a Mantua Booster, so I'm unable to give you a comparison first-hand. I do understand though, that the Booster was about equal to the Dockside in quality.

In looking through Mantua literature (and other sources), I see nothing on the Booster indicating it was produced before 1953. In checking out the Mantua catalogs, they produced a very similar saddletanker called "The Little 'B' 0-4-0," starting in the 1948 Mantua Catalog and Handbook of that year. The September 1951 mini-catalog still does not include it (but continues to carry "The Little 'B' 0-4-0." The Mantua HO Model Railroad Locomotive and Car Kit Replacement Parts List catalog dated August 1952 does not include it, nor does the 63 page Mantua's HO Scale Model Railroad Cyclopedia, with the same date.

A small (5 1/2" x 3 3/4") undated 6-page brochure does include it, as well as including "Mantua's New Model Railroad Cyclopedia, so we can assume it was produced in late 1952, after the two previously mentioned Mantua booklets came out. Model R.R. Equipment Corp.'s 1953 catalog includes it.

There were two members of the HO Scale & History SIG (NRHS) who confirmed that the Mantua Booster had a nylon frame (part #3222) in 1952, as dated with the instruction sheets that came with each of these members' kits that included that date printed on them (the same nylon frame was used in The Streetcar, as part #3223). This is not to say I'm verifying the 1952 date as the Booster having a nylon frame that year, as Mantua may have included the same instruction sheet with subsequent year's Boosters, but it's something to look for. Since 1952 would still fall within the Korean War period, it's still possible for at least some 1952 Boosters to have had a nylon frame if Mantua was being plagued with zinc rot in this particular part at that time.

Ray Wetzel.

In a message dated 2/21/2016 11:13:53 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

How does the Mantua Booster compare to the Varney Dockside?

When was the Booster first produced? I have a couple full metal Boosters. But both major repair work. I've also got a couple of all metal Shifters.

I also have a Model Power Booster. I plan to see what the part interchangeability is.

So is the Booster a viable alternative to the Dockside. I do have both. But no operational track right now.

Bob Macklin

Seattle, Wa

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25181	From: Bob Macklin	Date: 2/21/2016
Subject: Re: Dockside VS Booster?

Ray,

I have two early Boosters with zinc frames. But both are parts engines. I think I have enough parts to make one runner. But I can usually get more parts an eBay.

All the parts except the frame and body are the same as the Shifter.

1952 sounds about right. I too went through the documents on HO Seeker.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, February 21, 2016 11:34 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Dockside VS Booster?

Bob,

As I've always liked my Varney Docksides, I've never owned a Mantua Booster, so I'm unable to give you a comparison first-hand. I do understand though, that the Booster was about equal to the Dockside in quality.

In looking through Mantua literature (and other sources), I see nothing on the Booster indicating it was produced before 1953. In checking out the Mantua catalogs, they produced a very similar saddletanker called "The Little 'B' 0-4-0," starting in the 1948 Mantua Catalog and Handbook of that year. The September 1951 mini-catalog still does not include it (but continues to carry "The Little 'B' 0-4-0." The Mantua HO Model Railroad Locomotive and Car Kit Replacement Parts List catalog dated August 1952 does not include it, nor does the 63 page Mantua's HO Scale Model Railroad Cyclopedia, with the same date.

A small (5 1/2" x 3 3/4") undated 6-page brochure does include it, as well as including "Mantua's New Model Railroad Cyclopedia, so we can assume it was produced in late 1952, after the two previously mentioned Mantua booklets came out. Model R.R. Equipment Corp.'s 1953 catalog includes it.

There were two members of the HO Scale & History SIG (NRHS) who confirmed that the Mantua Booster had a nylon frame (part #3222) in 1952, as dated with the instruction sheets that came with each of these members' kits that included that date printed on them (the same nylon frame was used in The Streetcar, as part #3223). This is not to say I'm verifying the 1952 date as the Booster having a nylon frame that year, as Mantua may have included the same instruction sheet with subsequent year's Boosters, but it's something to look for. Since 1952 would still fall within the Korean War period, it's still possible for at least some 1952 Boosters to have had a nylon frame if Mantua was being plagued with zinc rot in this particular part at that time.

Ray Wetzel.

In a message dated 2/21/2016 11:13:53 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

How does the Mantua Booster compare to the Varney Dockside?

When was the Booster first produced? I have a couple full metal Boosters. But both major repair work. I've also got a couple of all metal Shifters.

I also have a Model Power Booster. I plan to see what the part interchangeability is.

So is the Booster a viable alternative to the Dockside. I do have both. But no operational track right now.

Bob Macklin

Seattle, Wa

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25182	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 2/21/2016
Subject: Vintage Modeling....Re: [vintageHO] personal update

I’ll have to review the group mission statement.

You see, my perspective is that Vintage models are not just the remaining relics we are lucky enough to find and restore into operation.

But it includes the Vintage models of the past that you can’t find in the sources of used equipment we stumble across.

An example would be the 1930’s 1940’s article from a contemporary of Paul Moore[ the name escapes me just now] that fellow that did all those year of brass model conversion in RMC and was a big trolley modeler in the 30’s…..

So buried in the old MR’s or RMC’s is a article on building a circa 1910 streamlined steam-car with the power chassis of a Docksider produced in the 30’s or the 40’s.

Now even if you happen to find a vintage Varney Docksider drive of the era, you are still going to be building that model exactly as it was drawn and written up; you will still be making it today, with todays available materials.

So….

I call that Vintage HO modeling. How you make it doesn’t matter, its still a creation from the Vintage era.

What do you think of it?

Best to ya,

Mike Bauers

Milwaukee, Wi

On Feb 21, 2016, at 4:16 AM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

I don't know what the majority of the membership prefers reading here, but I'm on this group to discuss those very same models that this Group was created for. While I don't mind reading about your modern model-building methods, I don't wish to see them on here, no matter that I have a delete button to quickly remove them; they do not belong here. Many thanks,

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25183	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 2/21/2016
Subject: Re: personal update

Are we a Vintage collection group?

Or are we more of a Vintage enthusiasts group?

The first is a lot more restrictive and leaves out much of the restoration work we do that recovers partial relics from the era.

Is a restored wreck of a Walthers composite material passenger car Vintage enough, or is leaving it as its time-worn incomplete condition as virginally original properly Vintage thinking?

Which thinking wins?

Best to ya,

Mike Bauers

Milwaukee, Wi

On Feb 21, 2016, at 7:59 AM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

If we're to entertain all concepts here, then why have it as a vintage-discussion group? Why don't we open it up to ALL concepts??? -- if this is what's preferred ! . . . and I say this as John Allen would, as tongue-in-cheek.

Ray Wetzel

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25184	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 2/21/2016
Subject: Re: personal update

Well you have to understand that I just had nearly four months of being stuck in the house by myself due to illness. It was just last week that I finally got normally into the outside world and mingled again with real living people. I think I had a total of three minutes of live conversation with the mailman during those four months.

It’s just the after effect of cabin fever similar to being trapped in your home for months after the Big Blizzard….. and not being able to get to the LHS, train meets, swap meets, Trainfest, Thanksgiving, Christmas, and New Years dinner.

The sofa was oh — so — comfortable during that time at home.

You’re going to see these ideas later than Cedarburg. The laser cutter features in the newest. TM molds will be ready soon. The Nienow models are getting unobtrusive power trucks and the 1920’s articulated TM wood brill-likes are in work and will be molded before long.

The goal is to have the three types of TM art’s running at TrainFest, possibly with the laser cut new age sides and ends on display as well. In multiple copies.

For perspective

The Brill-like art’s are circa 1920’s, models made with some 30 year old Bachmann bodies and contemporary RTV castings.

The Neinow Art’s [LaBelle Woodworking - personal projects] are modeled on circa 30’s prototypes, that Fred built in the late 50’s and will be powered by drive's built today. His construction templates are in my hands and will eventually become laser cut items to allow small fleets of the cars in the hands of the trolley modeling group

There are also a number of single cars he built at the same time including the North Shore Observation platform interurban, circa ’20’s, model built late 50’s. If it gets a power truck [if it’s not a trailer] it will get a low-floor one built today.

So…… Vintage models or not ????

It gets confusing……..

Best to ya,

Mike Bauers

Milwaukee, Wi

On Feb 21, 2016, at 12:41 PM, Don Dellmann wrote:

So Mike;

WE gonna see some of these ideas in the flesh at the Cedarburg show? ( remember, that's only 2 weeks from today).

Please come so I can womp you upside the head for being off topic  >:o

Seriously, you have been going a little overboard lately. I've kind of put up with it because I've been hearing these ideas for the last 20 years so I'm used to it. ;-)

Don

On 2/21/2016 3:19 AM, Mike Bauers mwbauers55@... [vintageHO] wrote:
Hi Ray,

I sort of started this.
I think it's well talked out by now and we'll move to the usual stuff.

It's mainly my fault.

I pursue the unusual and not often mainstream vintage stuff.

Often those are remnants and not complete from their origination.

So I pursue ways of completing them with no hopes of ever getting the rest of them to have pure Vintage models.

It's mostly with pure intentions.

For example, what solution would you chase for doing something operable with a pair of never painted nor assembled Rivarossi 1950 made Hiawatha 4-4-2 (RR factory 4-4-4) body shell sets, or a pair of Dixon models HH-600's with no owner chassis, or some TMER&L and CNS&M HO trolleys made by hand by the founder of LaBelle that never got motors.

Well I have solutions that won't remake them into complete originals. But they will be well working models.

And while the RR Hia's will be applied, the originals that they are will remain as they are. Their kin will have a better existence standing in for them.

The Dixons and Nienow-LaBelles will get unobtrusive modern drives that won't do any damage to the rare works.

I recently got the drives for the Dixons and finally decided on what drives for the N-L's

While I'm not straight mainstream, I am one of the gang in spirit.
Mike Bauers
Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 21, 2016, at 1:40 AM, "eriepacific@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Chuck,

While I'm not focusing directly on your message here, your opening statement forces me to remind everyone concerned that this thread of 20 or so messages has become increasingly (WAY) Off-Topic. So much so that I'm extremely surprised that Don has put up with it up until now. While it may be interesting to read, only because this is all a completely new concept in producing models, it just does not belong here on this Group. Laser cutting, 3-D printing and even resin casting do not belong here any more than retirement plans do -- and even much less so. While it's all made for some activity on this Group, some of us would rather discuss the more "novel" subject of vintage HO, if it's remembered by all concerned that this has been this forum's purpose. PLEASE take this topic elsewhere if it's not yet finished.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/20/2016 7:53:40 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Probably drifting away from topic a bit, but for those who don’t already have some of those tools there may soon be a 3 in 1 tool that does laser cutting, routing, and 3D printing in one unit. Seems like a neat idea the positioning systems only need to be once and do triple duty.

I saw one on American Makers (they didn’t go for it afraid that there is just too much fast paced competition out there) but it might have been this one:

http://3dprintingindustry.com/2015/03/11/all-in-one-3d-printer-cnc-machine-laser-engraver-funded/

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

-- Don Dellmann Contact me at: don.dellmann@... See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25185	From: Doug Harris	Date: 2/21/2016
Subject: Re: personal update

On 22/02/2016 00:57, luvprr@... [vintageHO] wrote:

> Hi, Ray,
> Gotta watch it. Complaining (or is it just judiciously making
> observations? ) about O/T threads can easily be interpreted as sour
> grapes. I haven't been closely following these discussions as I too am
> not privy to many of the upscale tools and methods and thinking in
> reference to vintage items, but I think I've noticed some contributions
> from folks I haven't heard from in the past, and it's possible that
> there are some gray areas that have encouraged some people to come out
> of the woodwork--so to speak. As long as vintage models and such are
> being referred to--even very indirectly--I can't really see the problem.
> Some of us (being very vintage ourselves) prefer to remain in a
> relatively narrow concept of "mainstream," but I think we need to have
> some room in this group for some ideas and such that some of us have not
> considered or even been aware of in the PAST. I totally understand the
> pride that we old timers have in our methods and such, and I've
> dismissed a few of the more contemporary ideas from some of these guys
> with a sniff but find some of their stuff kinda interesting--if not
> fascinating.
> Just love playing the devil's advocate here once in awhile--as we all do!
> Art Waite

No disrespect to anybody, but my feelings go along with Art's.

I moderate a vintage rail group (Japanese Sakai and Seki) and similar
things happen. I usually just let it ride - it slows down and stops,
everyone is happy, the group goes back to the topic, and life goes on..
I won't expound further, as it's OT. :-))

--
Cheers.

Doug Harris
Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25186	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 2/21/2016
Subject: Re: Dockside VS Booster?

Bob, Ray,

It is my understanding that the Booster was first offered in 1952-1953 and originally came out with the plastic frame and brass contact plates which were also like bearings for the axles. The engine motor was grounded via a screw/wire to the shell, just under the rear tank.

It is a pretty good running dependable engine. A little bit of a better design than that of the Varney Dockside. The contact brush on the Mantua was a better design in my opinion. They both lend very nicely to custom detailing. Having owned about a hundred of each, I can say on a consistent basis, the Mantua engine is easier to get running as well as will usually run on first try after sitting for a very long time. Varneys tend to be a bit more stubborn. Looks wise... I think the stock Dockside vs the stock Booster/Little 6 wins hands down, however add a few details and or pilot truck/trailing truck and the Booster looks very interesting. It also lends itself to a lot of other different customizations a lot easier as well.

Here are a few I customized in my collection:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/9977705@N05/sets/72157627595258142





				View on www.flickr.com	Preview by Yahoo

Here is one I have that was purchased this way:

Brass & Diecast Custom Mantua 2-4-4T Forney Booster Switcher Steam Locomotive



				Brass & Diecast Custom Mantua 2-4-4T Forney Booster S...

				View on www.flickr.com	Preview by Yahoo

This one I just added a few details to:

Custom Mantua 0-6-0 Booster Switcher Steam Locomotive



				Custom Mantua 0-6-0 Booster Switcher Steam Locomotive

				View on www.flickr.com	Preview by Yahoo

This one I went a little overboard on:

Custom Mantua All Weather Cab 2-6-2 Steam Loco



				Custom Mantua All Weather Cab 2-6-2 Steam Loco

				View on www.flickr.com	Preview by Yahoo

Custom Mantua All Weather Cab 2-6-2 Steam Loco



				Custom Mantua All Weather Cab 2-6-2 Steam Loco

				View on www.flickr.com	Preview by Yahoo

Therefore if you like to do any sort of custom wortk, I would chose the Mantua Booster.

Sincerely,

Sean

From: "Bob Macklin macklinbob@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, February 21, 2016 3:20 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Dockside VS Booster?

Ray,

I have two early Boosters with zinc frames. But both are parts engines. I think I have enough parts to make one runner. But I can usually get more parts an eBay.

All the parts except the frame and body are the same as the Shifter.

1952 sounds about right. I too went through the documents on HO Seeker.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, February 21, 2016 11:34 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Dockside VS Booster?

Bob,

As I've always liked my Varney Docksides, I've never owned a Mantua Booster, so I'm unable to give you a comparison first-hand. I do understand though, that the Booster was about equal to the Dockside in quality.

In looking through Mantua literature (and other sources), I see nothing on the Booster indicating it was produced before 1953. In checking out the Mantua catalogs, they produced a very similar saddletanker called "The Little 'B' 0-4-0," starting in the 1948 Mantua Catalog and Handbook of that year. The September 1951 mini-catalog still does not include it (but continues to carry "The Little 'B' 0-4-0." The Mantua HO Model Railroad Locomotive and Car Kit Replacement Parts List catalog dated August 1952 does not include it, nor does the 63 page Mantua's HO Scale Model Railroad Cyclopedia, with the same date.

A small (5 1/2" x 3 3/4") undated 6-page brochure does include it, as well as including "Mantua's New Model Railroad Cyclopedia, so we can assume it was produced in late 1952, after the two previously mentioned Mantua booklets came out. Model R.R. Equipment Corp.'s 1953 catalog includes it.

There were two members of the HO Scale & History SIG (NRHS) who confirmed that the Mantua Booster had a nylon frame (part #3222) in 1952, as dated with the instruction sheets that came with each of these members' kits that included that date printed on them (the same nylon frame was used in The Streetcar, as part #3223). This is not to say I'm verifying the 1952 date as the Booster having a nylon frame that year, as Mantua may have included the same instruction sheet with subsequent year's Boosters, but it's something to look for. Since 1952 would still fall within the Korean War period, it's still possible for at least some 1952 Boosters to have had a nylon frame if Mantua was being plagued with zinc rot in this particular part at that time.

Ray Wetzel.

In a message dated 2/21/2016 11:13:53 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

How does the Mantua Booster compare to the Varney Dockside?

When was the Booster first produced? I have a couple full metal Boosters. But both major repair work. I've also got a couple of all metal Shifters.

I also have a Model Power Booster. I plan to see what the part interchangeability is.

So is the Booster a viable alternative to the Dockside. I do have both. But no operational track right now.

Bob Macklin

Seattle, Wa

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25187	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 2/21/2016
Subject: Re: Dockside VS Booster?

I didn’t think the Mantua Booster could be worn out.

Breaking the steps seemed to be the only potentially delicate parts on them.

I know the Docksider is more delicate than the Booster. The prototype Docksider is so heavy that it was only used on the Baltimore Docks Complex with its heavy loads and tight curves, and you couldn’t find a similar heavy switcher anywhere else in the country. I think there were only three of them built.

The Mantua Booster is quite typical of the generic industrial tank-switcher fleet found almost everywhere around the country.

I lean towards the Booster as being a more typical model, and in general, built as solid as a brick.

Best to ya,

Mike Bauers

Milwaukee, Wi

On Feb 21, 2016, at 10:13 AM, Bob Macklin wrote:

How does the Mantua Booster compare to the Varney Dockside?

When was the Booster first produced? I have a couple full metal Boosters. But both major repair work. I've also got a couple of all metal Shifters.

I also have a Model Power Booster. I plan to see what the part interchangeability is.

So is the Booster a viable alternative to the Dockside. I do have both. But no operational track right now.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25188	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 2/21/2016
Subject: Re: Off topic posts [was] personal update

I’m willing to have this group settle in as an HO version of the Toy Train Collectors Society. I don’t mean to insult anyone with that.

It does seem to be that is the type of group some expect this to be.

I really am the type of guy that has four of the Aristo Craft 4-2-2 1880’s HO steamer models. I just happen to also have a box of 24 MDC Pullman Palace Car 85-footer bodies to slice and dice into the trains they need and will RTV the missing platform steps and bolsters for them, along with a generous sized carton of partial Walthers 50’s-60’s production passenger cars and RTV to clone the needed parts to restore them.

And that Shuttle Jack I’ve long wanted, won’t be one of the originals that I never am successful at getting.

I’m definitely not a purist.

But if most of you are, that’s fine.

Best to ya,

Mike Bauers

Milwaukee, Wi

On Feb 21, 2016, at 8:02 AM, willard seehorn wrote:

I tend to agree with both sides in this one. Perhaps a new group "21st Century Antique trains" or "Old Trains, New Techniques"?

If I get enough direct messages (wseehorn (at) earthlink) (dot) net I'll set it up.

Willard

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25189	From: corlissbs	Date: 2/21/2016
Subject: Re: Dockside VS Booster?

Depends if you like a saddle tank or a side tank locomotive. For me, I prefer a saddle tank. They were much more prevalent in this country. Side tanks were made for warm climates. Some of the side tankers were government surplus after WW1 and 2, built for use in foreign countries. Brooklyn Eastern District Dock CO. in New York City had a huge 0-6-0T. and there were a couple, one in KY and one in VA that were gov. surplus

That being said, I have one side tanker that I would love to get running with a descent drive, just for fun. I bought a new-in-box, 1970 vintage LMB brass 2-6-2T that is cute as can be, a couple of years ago. I remember when those came out and the earlier Ken Kidder (I think) convertible 2-6-2T that I wanted to buy but never did.

Brad

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25190	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 2/21/2016
Subject: LMB 2-6-2t.....Re: [vintageHO] Dockside VS Booster?

Brad,

Have you looked into a new NWSL gearbox for the vintage LMB?

Seems to me that it would be a reliable way to update the model with a good drive.

Which reminds me …. There’s a Varney drive worm on eBay I need for the Varney chassis I have with a Varney Streamliner steamer….. I finally found the right worm for that never assembled model. I hope it fits……

If not, I’m going NWSL on it.

Best to ya,
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi

> On Feb 21, 2016, at 5:59 PM, corlissbs> wrote:
>
>
>
> Depends if you like a saddle tank or a side tank locomotive. For me, I prefer a saddle tank. They were much more prevalent in this country. Side tanks were made for warm climates. Some of the side tankers were government surplus after WW1 and 2, built for use in foreign countries. Brooklyn Eastern District Dock CO. in New York City had a huge 0-6-0T. and there were a couple, one in KY and one in VA that were gov. surplus
>
> That being said, I have one side tanker that I would love to get running with a descent drive, just for fun. I bought a new-in-box, 1970 vintage LMB brass 2-6-2T that is cute as can be, a couple of years ago. I remember when those came out and the earlier Ken Kidder (I think) convertible 2-6-2T that I wanted to buy but never did.
>
> Brad

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25191	From: corlissbs	Date: 2/21/2016
Subject: Re: LMB 2-6-2t.....Re: [vintageHO] Dockside VS Booster?

Mike:

At the Mad City show today there was a guy selling a bunch of old die cast locos. Varney Old Lady, new, and in used, Casey Jones, MDC 0-6-0T, several Mantua Pacifics and Mikes and switchers, and an Athearn Pacific.

Brad

In a message dated 2/21/2016 6:24:04 P.M. Central Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Brad,

Have you looked into a new NWSL gearbox for the vintage LMB?

Seems to me that it would be a reliable way to update the model with a good drive.

Which reminds me …. There’s a Varney drive worm on eBay I need for the Varney chassis I have with a Varney Streamliner steamer….. I finally found the right worm for that never assembled model. I hope it fits……

If not, I’m going NWSL on it.

Best to ya,
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi

> On Feb 21, 2016, at 5:59 PM, corlissbs> wrote:
>
>
>
> Depends if you like a saddle tank or a side tank locomotive. For me, I prefer a saddle tank. They were much more prevalent in this country. Side tanks were made for warm climates. Some of the side tankers were government surplus after WW1 and 2, built for use in foreign countries. Brooklyn Eastern District Dock CO. in New York City had a huge 0-6-0T. and there were a couple, one in KY and one in VA that were gov. surplus
>
> That being said, I have one side tanker that I would love to get running with a descent drive, just for fun. I bought a new-in-box, 1970 vintage LMB brass 2-6-2T that is cute as can be, a couple of years ago. I remember when those came out and the earlier Ken Kidder (I think) convertible 2-6-2T that I wanted to buy but never did.
>
> Brad

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25192	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 2/21/2016
Subject: Re: LMB 2-6-2t.....Re: [vintageHO] Dockside VS Booster?

That sounds nice !

Well, next year for me.

I can console myself that I finally found and ordered the worm I needed for a Varney Streamlined steamer I got at the last Madison show I got to. In a matter of days I’ll be able to get it running with a new motor. I got a couple of other even harder to find goodies with it that still need to be rehabbed.

I’ll finish those and be very very ready for the next Madison show.

And now theres a nicely well stocked train shop between me and work. I think I’ll enjoy the convenience of a place that stocks lots of HO parts. I hear that the Kato HO drive worms work well on Mantua steamer drive gears, perfect for those old dears we find without motors.

Best to ya,
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi

> On Feb 21, 2016, at 6:58 PM, corlissbs wrote:
>
>
>
> Mike:
>
> At the Mad City show today there was a guy selling a bunch of old die cast locos. Varney Old Lady, new, and in used, Casey Jones, MDC 0-6-0T, several Mantua Pacifics and Mikes and switchers, and an Athearn Pacific.
>
> Brad
>
> In a message dated 2/21/2016 6:24:04 P.M. Central Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:
> Brad,
>
> Have you looked into a new NWSL gearbox for the vintage LMB?
>
> Seems to me that it would be a reliable way to update the model with a good drive.
>
> Which reminds me …. There’s a Varney drive worm on eBay I need for the Varney chassis I have with a Varney Streamliner steamer….. I finally found the right worm for that never assembled model. I hope it fits……
>
> If not, I’m going NWSL on it.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25193	From: corlissbs	Date: 2/21/2016
Subject: Re: LMB 2-6-2t.....Re: [vintageHO] Dockside VS Booster?

Mike, where is the stocked hobby shop?

Brad

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25194	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 2/21/2016
Subject: Re: LMB 2-6-2t.....Re: [vintageHO] Dockside VS Booster?

If you happen to like parts and a guy that will order -anything- for you, and discount everything….

He’s small, well packed, and will get you anything within a week.

I think its named South Side Trains

just a couple of blocks south from the intersection of Howell and Howard, on the west side on a corner.

There always some old books there as well. He recently had two of the hardbound Kalmbach late 1940’s Model Railroad Cyclopedia plan-books. If you don’t have one, you’d like one. There are some very nice vintage early twentieth century things in it, and some obscure local RR items.

Best to ya,
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi

> On Feb 21, 2016, at 7:13 PM, corlissbs wrote:
>
>
>
> Mike, where is the stocked hobby shop?
>
> Brad

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25195	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 2/21/2016
Subject: Re: Dockside VS Booster?

Sean,

Okay, then you're echoing what I found, on the Booster first being offered in (late) 1952 -- or as you indicate, possible 1953 -- and it originally came out with a plastic (nylon) frame. After I sent my message, it occurred to me that if the 1952 plans for it had the parts numbers listed, this would show that the model had a plastic (nylon) frame if it was listed as part #3222. Great looking custom jobs. The all-weather cab -- being a bit "overboard" reminds me of the Cab-Forward front that was available for the Varney Dockside, It too, looked a bit "overboard" when that was installed. They both looked very custom though with those additions.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/21/2016 5:20:28 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Bob, Ray,

It is my understanding that the Booster was first offered in 1952-1953 and originally came out with the plastic frame and brass contact plates which were also like bearings for the axles. The engine motor was grounded via a screw/wire to the shell, just under the rear tank.

It is a pretty good running dependable engine. A little bit of a better design than that of the Varney Dockside. The contact brush on the Mantua was a better design in my opinion. They both lend very nicely to custom detailing. Having owned about a hundred of each, I can say on a consistent basis, the Mantua engine is easier to get running as well as will usually run on first try after sitting for a very long time. Varneys tend to be a bit more stubborn. Looks wise... I think the stock Dockside vs the stock Booster/Little 6 wins hands down, however add a few details and or pilot truck/trailing truck and the Booster looks very interesting. It also lends itself to a lot of other different customizations a lot easier as well.

Here are a few I customized in my collection:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/9977705@N05/sets/72157627595258142

View on www.flickr.com

Preview by Yahoo

Here is one I have that was purchased this way:

Brass & Diecast Custom Mantua 2-4-4T Forney Booster Switcher Steam Locomotive

Brass & Diecast Custom Mantua 2-4-4T Forney Booster S...

View on www.flickr.com

Preview by Yahoo

This one I just added a few details to:

Custom Mantua 0-6-0 Booster Switcher Steam Locomotive

Custom Mantua 0-6-0 Booster Switcher Steam Locomotive

View on www.flickr.com

Preview by Yahoo

This one I went a little overboard on:

Custom Mantua All Weather Cab 2-6-2 Steam Loco

Custom Mantua All Weather Cab 2-6-2 Steam Loco

View on www.flickr.com

Preview by Yahoo

Custom Mantua All Weather Cab 2-6-2 Steam Loco

Custom Mantua All Weather Cab 2-6-2 Steam Loco

View on www.flickr.com

Preview by Yahoo

Therefore if you like to do any sort of custom wortk, I would chose the Mantua Booster.

Sincerely,

Sean

From: "Bob Macklin macklinbob@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, February 21, 2016 3:20 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Dockside VS Booster?

Ray,

I have two early Boosters with zinc frames. But both are parts engines. I think I have enough parts to make one runner. But I can usually get more parts an eBay.

All the parts except the frame and body are the same as the Shifter.

1952 sounds about right. I too went through the documents on HO Seeker.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, February 21, 2016 11:34 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Dockside VS Booster?

Bob,

As I've always liked my Varney Docksides, I've never owned a Mantua Booster, so I'm unable to give you a comparison first-hand. I do understand though, that the Booster was about equal to the Dockside in quality.

In looking through Mantua literature (and other sources), I see nothing on the Booster indicating it was produced before 1953. In checking out the Mantua catalogs, they produced a very similar saddletanker called "The Little 'B' 0-4-0," starting in the 1948 Mantua Catalog and Handbook of that year. The September 1951 mini-catalog still does not include it (but continues to carry "The Little 'B' 0-4-0." The Mantua HO Model Railroad Locomotive and Car Kit Replacement Parts List catalog dated August 1952 does not include it, nor does the 63 page Mantua's HO Scale Model Railroad Cyclopedia, with the same date.

A small (5 1/2" x 3 3/4") undated 6-page brochure does include it, as well as including "Mantua's New Model Railroad Cyclopedia, so we can assume it was produced in late 1952, after the two previously mentioned Mantua booklets came out. Model R.R. Equipment Corp.'s 1953 catalog includes it.

There were two members of the HO Scale & History SIG (NRHS) who confirmed that the Mantua Booster had a nylon frame (part #3222) in 1952, as dated with the instruction sheets that came with each of these members' kits that included that date printed on them (the same nylon frame was used in The Streetcar, as part #3223). This is not to say I'm verifying the 1952 date as the Booster having a nylon frame that year, as Mantua may have included the same instruction sheet with subsequent year's Boosters, but it's something to look for. Since 1952 would still fall within the Korean War period, it's still possible for at least some 1952 Boosters to have had a nylon frame if Mantua was being plagued with zinc rot in this particular part at that time.

Ray Wetzel.

In a message dated 2/21/2016 11:13:53 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

How does the Mantua Booster compare to the Varney Dockside?

When was the Booster first produced? I have a couple full metal Boosters. But both major repair work. I've also got a couple of all metal Shifters.

I also have a Model Power Booster. I plan to see what the part interchangeability is.

So is the Booster a viable alternative to the Dockside. I do have both. But no operational track right now.

Bob Macklin

Seattle, Wa

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25196	From: corlissbs	Date: 2/21/2016
Subject: Re: Dockside VS Booster?

One of the Jap brass importers offered a Dockside with full valve gear. The body was die cast and very nice. I have one, but the little name tag that was glued to the bottom cover fell off, so I can't tell who imported of made it. Might have been PFM. I never used the body boiler and cab and would sell it to anyone who wants to kit bash. I made a boiler and cab for mine to turn it into a different locomotive.

Brad

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25197	From: trainliker	Date: 2/21/2016
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Dockside VS Booster?

You are referring to the Sakura 0-4-0 “Docksider” which was imported by PFM.

An even nicer one was all brass, built by Samhongsa, and imported by GEM as B&O Class C16 Docksider.

Actually, especially if you add the Central Valley valve gear kit, the Varney one is quite presentable, in my opinion.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Windows Mail

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: ‎Sunday‎, ‎February‎ ‎21‎, ‎2016 ‎7‎:‎33‎ ‎PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Brad

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25198	From: corlissbs	Date: 2/21/2016
Subject: Re: Dockside VS Booster?

I also have a Bowser Dockside with a new package of Central Valley valve gear. I remotored it with NWSL gears and a Sagami can motor, insulated from the frame in case I want to install DCC sound.

Brad

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25199	From: roger_aultman	Date: 2/21/2016
Subject: Re: Dockside VS Booster?

--
My first H-O steam was a booster with the nylon frame, it came in a set of kits which included two die-cast flat cars a bobber caboose, six 18" sections of brass track with fiber ties and a cardboard tube that held 6 D cells for power. The loco had two plastic drivers and two brass rimmed ones, you can imagine how often that stalled. The flats and caboose are now pulled by a metal booster, the original is in parts in a storage box. The story at the time was metal was being conserved for the Korean war. Roger Aultman

-- "eriepacific@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

=============

Sean,

Okay, then you're echoing what I found, on the Booster first being offered
in (late) 1952 -- or as you indicate, possible 1953 -- and it originally
came out with a plastic (nylon) frame. After I sent my message, it occurred
to me that if the 1952 plans for it had the parts numbers listed, this
would show that the model had a plastic (nylon) frame if it was listed as part
#3222. Great looking custom jobs. The all-weather cab -- being a bit
"overboard" reminds me of the Cab-Forward front that was available for the
Varney Dockside, It too, looked a bit "overboard" when that was installed.
They both looked very custom though with those additions.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/21/2016 5:20:28 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Bob, Ray,

It is my understanding that the Booster was first offered in 1952-1953 and
originally came out with the plastic frame and brass contact plates which
were also like bearings for the axles. The engine motor was grounded via a
screw/wire to the shell, just under the rear tank.

It is a pretty good running dependable engine. A little bit of a better
design than that of the Varney Dockside. The contact brush on the Mantua was
a better design in my opinion. They both lend very nicely to custom
detailing. Having owned about a hundred of each, I can say on a consistent basis,
the Mantua engine is easier to get running as well as will usually run on
first try after sitting for a very long time. Varneys tend to be a bit more
stubborn. Looks wise... I think the stock Dockside vs the stock
Booster/Little 6 wins hands down, however add a few details and or pilot
truck/trailing truck and the Booster looks very interesting. It also lends itself to a
lot of other different customizations a lot easier as well.

Here are a few I customized in my collection:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/9977705@N05/sets/72157627595258142

(https://www.flickr.com/photos/9977705@N05/sets/72157627595258142)

(https://www.flickr.com/photos/9977705@N05/sets/72157627595258142)

_View on www.flickr.com_
(https://www.flickr.com/photos/9977705@N05/sets/72157627595258142)
Preview by Yahoo

Here is one I have that was purchased this way:

_Brass & Diecast Custom Mantua 2-4-4T Forney Booster Switcher Steam
Locomotive_
(https://www.flickr.com/photos/9977705@N05/4286285662/in/album-72157623241615384/)

(https://www.flickr.com/photos/9977705@N05/4286285662/in/album-72157623241615384/)

_Brass & Diecast Custom Mantua 2-4-4T Forney Booster S..._
(https://www.flickr.com/photos/9977705@N05/4286285662/in/album-72157623241615384/)

_View on www.flickr.com_
(https://www.flickr.com/photos/9977705@N05/4286285662/in/album-72157623241615384/)
Preview by Yahoo

This one I just added a few details to:

_Custom Mantua 0-6-0 Booster Switcher Steam Locomotive_
(https://www.flickr.com/photos/9977705@N05/4286047322/in/album-72157623241615384/)

(https://www.flickr.com/photos/9977705@N05/4286047322/in/album-72157623241615384/)

_Custom Mantua 0-6-0 Booster Switcher Steam Locomotive_
(https://www.flickr.com/photos/9977705@N05/4286047322/in/album-72157623241615384/)

_View on www.flickr.com_
(https://www.flickr.com/photos/9977705@N05/4286047322/in/album-72157623241615384/)
Preview by Yahoo

This one I went a little overboard on:

_Custom Mantua All Weather Cab 2-6-2 Steam Loco_
(https://www.flickr.com/photos/9977705@N05/4285303999/in/album-72157623241615384/)

(https://www.flickr.com/photos/9977705@N05/4285303999/in/album-72157623241615384/)

_Custom Mantua All Weather Cab 2-6-2 Steam Loco_
(https://www.flickr.com/photos/9977705@N05/4285303999/in/album-72157623241615384/)

_View on www.flickr.com_
(https://www.flickr.com/photos/9977705@N05/4285303999/in/album-72157623241615384/)
Preview by Yahoo

_Custom Mantua All Weather Cab 2-6-2 Steam Loco_
(https://www.flickr.com/photos/9977705@N05/4286046098/in/album-72157623241615384/)

(https://www.flickr.com/photos/9977705@N05/4286046098/in/album-72157623241615384/)

_Custom Mantua All Weather Cab 2-6-2 Steam Loco_
(https://www.flickr.com/photos/9977705@N05/4286046098/in/album-72157623241615384/)

_View on www.flickr.com_
(https://www.flickr.com/photos/9977705@N05/4286046098/in/album-72157623241615384/)
Preview by Yahoo

Therefore if you like to do any sort of custom wortk, I would chose the
Mantua Booster.

Sincerely,

Sean

____________________________________
From: "Bob Macklin macklinbob@... [vintageHO]"
<vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, February 21, 2016 3:20 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Dockside VS Booster?

Ray,

I have two early Boosters with zinc frames. But both are parts engines. I
think I have enough parts to make one runner. But I can usually get more
parts an eBay.

All the parts except the frame and body are the same as the Shifter.

1952 sounds about right. I too went through the documents on HO Seeker.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----
From: _eriepacific@... [vintageHO]_
(mailto:eriepacific@...%20[vintageHO])
To: _vintageHO@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com)
Sent: Sunday, February 21, 2016 11:34 AM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Dockside VS Booster?

Bob,

As I've always liked my Varney Docksides, I've never owned a Mantua
Booster, so I'm unable to give you a comparison first-hand. I do understand
though, that the Booster was about equal to the Dockside in quality.

In looking through Mantua literature (and other sources), I see nothing on
the Booster indicating it was produced before 1953. In checking out the
Mantua catalogs, they produced a very similar saddletanker called "The
Little 'B' 0-4-0," starting in the 1948 Mantua Catalog and Handbook of that
year. The September 1951 mini-catalog still does not include it (but continues
to carry "The Little 'B' 0-4-0." The Mantua HO Model Railroad Locomotive
and Car Kit Replacement Parts List catalog dated August 1952 does not
include it, nor does the 63 page Mantua's HO Scale Model Railroad Cyclopedia,
with the same date.

A small (5 1/2" x 3 3/4") undated 6-page brochure does include it, as well
as including "Mantua's New Model Railroad Cyclopedia, so we can assume it
was produced in late 1952, after the two previously mentioned Mantua
booklets came out. Model R.R. Equipment Corp.'s 1953 catalog includes it.

There were two members of the HO Scale & History SIG (NRHS) who confirmed
that the Mantua Booster had a nylon frame (part #3222) in 1952, as dated
with the instruction sheets that came with each of these members' kits that
included that date printed on them (the same nylon frame was used in The
Streetcar, as part #3223). This is not to say I'm verifying the 1952 date as
the Booster having a nylon frame that year, as Mantua may have included the
same instruction sheet with subsequent year's Boosters, but it's something
to look for. Since 1952 would still fall within the Korean War period,
it's still possible for at least some 1952 Boosters to have had a nylon
frame if Mantua was being plagued with zinc rot in this particular part at that
time.

Ray Wetzel.

In a message dated 2/21/2016 11:13:53 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

How does the Mantua Booster compare to the Varney Dockside?

When was the Booster first produced? I have a couple full metal Boosters.
But both major repair work. I've also got a couple of all metal Shifters.

I also have a Model Power Booster. I plan to see what the part
interchangeability is.

So is the Booster a viable alternative to the Dockside. I do have both.
But no operational track right now.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25200	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 2/22/2016
Subject: Re: Dockside VS Booster?

Attachments :

mnr 36.jpg

On 2/21/2016 9:33 PM, corlissbs@... [vintageHO] wrote:

One of the Jap brass importers offered a Dockside with full valve gear. The body was die cast and very nice. I have one, but the little name tag that was glued to the bottom cover fell off, so I can't tell who imported of made it. Might have been PFM. I never used the body boiler and cab and would sell it to anyone who wants to kit bash. I made a boiler and cab for mine to turn it into a different locomotive.

Brad

Can't say who made it, but the importer was probably GEM. They had both the C16 dockside and the C16A rebuilt tender version.

BTW, the Mantua Mike is pretty well done, picture attached. Still need a front coupler. Needs a bit of tweaking, there's a very slight bind in the drive train, appears to be associated with the No. 3 driver but I can't see anything :-(
I have had it running so I'm not worried.

Don

-- Don Dellmann Contact me at: don.dellmann@... See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

@@attachment@@

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25201	From: corlissbs	Date: 2/22/2016
Subject: Re: Dockside VS Booster?

You made great progress. The engine looks great.

Brad

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25202	From: anypaddler	Date: 2/22/2016
Subject: Re: Dockside VS Booster?

Mike Bauers wrote:

< The prototype Docksider is so heavy that it was only used on the Baltimore Docks Complex with its heavy loads and tight curves, and you couldnt find a similar heavy switcher anywhere else in the country. I think there were only three of them built.

----------------------------

There were four of them, B&O nos. 96-99, Class C-16. Nos. 96 and 99 later rebuilt with saddle tanks replaced with conventional tenders, Class C-16a.

Ralph V. Balfoort
Retired D&H and VRS

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25203	From: corlissbs	Date: 2/22/2016
Subject: Re: Dockside VS Booster?

I will never forget my first HO loco. It was a Gilbert PRR 0-6-0 with tender. I first wanted to model PRR but then changed and wanted to model the NH, so I filed off the Belpare firebox lumps and decalled the tender. I had a circle of track with two straight sections, a rerailer and terminal strip. I wore the flanges off one side of the engine! Then it was useless and my Dad bought me the new NH Mantua F9. I still have that engine and it still runs great.

Brad

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25204	From: trainliker	Date: 2/22/2016
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Dockside VS Booster? [1 Attachment]

Diecast/brass was Sakura built, PFM imported. All brass was Samhongsa built, GEM imported.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Windows Mail

From: corlissbs@... [vintageHO]
Sent: ‎Monday‎, ‎February‎ ‎22‎, ‎2016 ‎4‎:‎33‎ ‎AM
To: corlissbs@... [vintageHO]

[Attachment(s) from Don Dellmann included below]

On 2/21/2016 9:33 PM, corlissbs@... [vintageHO] wrote:

One of the Jap brass importers offered a Dockside with full valve gear. The body was die cast and very nice. I have one, but the little name tag that was glued to the bottom cover fell off, so I can't tell who imported of made it. Might have been PFM. I never used the body boiler and cab and would sell it to anyone who wants to kit bash. I made a boiler and cab for mine to turn it into a different locomotive.

Brad

Can't say who made it, but the importer was probably GEM. They had both the C16 dockside and the C16A rebuilt tender version.

BTW, the Mantua Mike is pretty well done, picture attached. Still need a front coupler. Needs a bit of tweaking, there's a very slight bind in the drive train, appears to be associated with the No. 3 driver but I can't see anything :-(
I have had it running so I'm not worried.

Don

-- Don Dellmann Contact me at: don.dellmann@... See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25205	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 2/22/2016
Subject: Re: Dockside VS Booster?

Hey guys, I had som communications with the editor of the "Brown Book of Brass" a year or so. He educated me as to the history of the Sakura pieces which you all may find interesting. Please see the following:

"Let's start the talk about "Sakura".

Their company name in Japan is Nikko Model Works. The founder was Mr. Kondo (I don't know his first name. we always call of him "Dad Kondo"). They are skillful die-casting manufacturer serving to Tenshodo for nearly 60 years from after the first job, the gear box for the FT Diesel.

Their works in Tenshodo' s model are almost as follows;

< All of the die-cast gear box, both for the diesel and the steam
< Trucks for the streamlined ' shorty' passenger cars and 2-axle trucks for the ebonite NYC HW passenger cars
< Tender trucks for the U.S.R.A., Rock Island and the C&O/N&W 0-8-0s as well as the SP P-5 4-6-2
< Sprung Archbar and Bettendorf for the freight cars
< 'Baldwin' 0-6-0T----The prototype was not 'By Baldwin'. 'Pittsburg Locomotive Works' is correct
< 3-axle sprung truck for the brass 200t crane and the heavy duty depressed flat car
< Trucks for the GN Y-1 electric engine
< Almost all drivers of the steam engine by Tenshodo

Elder Kondo had managed the company and his younger brother controlled the workshop. Even today, younger Kondo still continue the workshop mainly for Tenshodo. Maybe, he has the top skill of die-casting in the model trains business over the world even now. He is also supplying many of domestic prototype truck for our market through the Nikko Model which is controlled by the elder Kondo's sons.

About 'Sakura'; The elder Kondo also had good sense for model making but had lacked the knowledge or the sense for the copyright. In early of 1960s, other from the business with Tenshodo, he went to seek the chance becoming the independent exporter of the model trains. I suppose that he had imaged of the Fleishman of Germany which was exporting the die-cast steam engines to the U.S. market at that time.

He copied the Varney's B&O 'Dockside' completely and pushed it to the P.F.M. May be, he came to know that the Varney ceased the business at that time.

About the full copy of the Penn Line diesel, while I don't know what importer bought it, I remember their advertising in the domestic model train magazine at that time.

It was so crazy that he also made the complete copy of the Karee #4 coupler and supplied the products into the Japanese market at nearly 50% of the price which Tenshodo put at that time,.

It had been continued for nearly a year or more until Tenshodo realized his un-behaved job. At that time, Tenshodo was the exclusive wholesaler of the Kadee coupler in Japan. They had this business through the P.F.M. We had called Mr. Kondo's couplers "Fake Kadee" at that time. After that, the Kadee went to print their patents over the world on the surface of their package

In other hand, Mr. Kondo waved un-officially to the craftsman who contracted with the Mr. Furuya of the Fujiya, and ordered the C&NW Class H-1 in 1963 and the NYC J3a 4-6-4 with the centipede tender in 1964 He sold these to the P.F.M. with the name of "SAKURA".

These ill-behaved business by Mr. Kondo had been stopped with Mr. his sudden death in late 1960s.

Today, Kondo family would not have much talk about "Sakura", but I had heard the story of Sakura business mainly from late Mr. Furuya of the Fujiyama.

I also had been told from younger Kondo about the history of the family business. Their ancestor had been the craftsman of the hand-made guns from the Edo-period which your old coin had been used. So, they could have much knowledge about the iron and engraving techs for it and had turned to casting job after the Pacific War, as the hand-made gun become hard to make under the new low.

This is the whole story which I know about "Sakura". Maybe, no people in the U.S.A. know this story after Mr. Drew of the P.F.M.'s passing-away, except Mr.John Glaab of The Brown Book whom I once told same story.

I hope this will help your study.

Best regards

Kenichi"

Sincerely,

Sean

From: "ckinzer@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: "corlissbs@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, February 22, 2016 11:27 AM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Dockside VS Booster?

Diecast/brass was Sakura built, PFM imported. All brass was Samhongsa built, GEM imported.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Windows Mail

From: corlissbs@... [vintageHO]
Sent: ‎Monday‎, ‎February‎ ‎22‎, ‎2016 ‎4‎:‎33‎ ‎AM
To: corlissbs@... [vintageHO]

[Attachment(s) from Don Dellmann included below]

On 2/21/2016 9:33 PM, corlissbs@... [vintageHO] wrote:

One of the Jap brass importers offered a Dockside with full valve gear. The body was die cast and very nice. I have one, but the little name tag that was glued to the bottom cover fell off, so I can't tell who imported of made it. Might have been PFM. I never used the body boiler and cab and would sell it to anyone who wants to kit bash. I made a boiler and cab for mine to turn it into a different locomotive.

Brad

Can't say who made it, but the importer was probably GEM. They had both the C16 dockside and the C16A rebuilt tender version.

BTW, the Mantua Mike is pretty well done, picture attached. Still need a front coupler. Needs a bit of tweaking, there's a very slight bind in the drive train, appears to be associated with the No. 3 driver but I can't see anything :-(
I have had it running so I'm not worried.

Don

-- Don Dellmann Contact me at: don.dellmann@... See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25206	From: Richard Dipping	Date: 2/22/2016
Subject: Re: Dockside VS Booster?

On the nylon framed Booster, the cylinders were also nylon, and the insulated dive wheels were nylon, including the flanges. The engine had only two wheels collecting current. So you had one live and one insulated wheel on each side. Kemtron had a four wheel trailing truck designed for the 'Nylon' Booster that would give the engine an additional two wheels picking up.

I think that public acceptance of the Nylon Booster was less than Mantua hoped for, so it was redesigned with all Zamac components.

Now...the really rare Booster was the first run version in which the side tanks had a sloping top surface. It appeared in a few early ads.

Richard

-----Original Message-----
From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sun, Feb 21, 2016 9:21 pm
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Dockside VS Booster?

Sean,

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/21/2016 5:20:28 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Bob, Ray,

It is my understanding that the Booster was first offered in 1952-1953 and originally came out with the plastic frame and brass contact plates which were also like bearings for the axles. The engine motor was grounded via a screw/wire to the shell, just under the rear tank.

It is a pretty good running dependable engine. A little bit of a better design than that of the Varney Dockside. The contact brush on the Mantua was a better design in my opinion. They both lend very nicely to custom detailing. Having owned about a hundred of each, I can say on a consistent basis, the Mantua engine is easier to get running as well as will usually run on first try after sitting for a very long time. Varneys tend to be a bit more stubborn. Looks wise... I think the stock Dockside vs the stock Booster/Little 6 wins hands down, however add a few details and or pilot truck/trailing truck and the Booster looks very interesting. It also lends itself to a lot of other different customizations a lot easier as well.

Here are a few I customized in my collection:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/9977705@N05/sets/72157627595258142

View on www.flickr.com

Preview by Yahoo

Here is one I have that was purchased this way:

Brass & Diecast Custom Mantua 2-4-4T Forney Booster Switcher Steam Locomotive

Brass & Diecast Custom Mantua 2-4-4T Forney Booster S...

View on www.flickr.com

Preview by Yahoo

This one I just added a few details to:

Custom Mantua 0-6-0 Booster Switcher Steam Locomotive

Custom Mantua 0-6-0 Booster Switcher Steam Locomotive

View on www.flickr.com

Preview by Yahoo

This one I went a little overboard on:

Custom Mantua All Weather Cab 2-6-2 Steam Loco

Custom Mantua All Weather Cab 2-6-2 Steam Loco

View on www.flickr.com

Preview by Yahoo

Custom Mantua All Weather Cab 2-6-2 Steam Loco

Custom Mantua All Weather Cab 2-6-2 Steam Loco

View on www.flickr.com

Preview by Yahoo

Therefore if you like to do any sort of custom wortk, I would chose the Mantua Booster.

Sincerely,

Sean

From: "Bob Macklin macklinbob@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, February 21, 2016 3:20 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Dockside VS Booster?

Ray,

I have two early Boosters with zinc frames. But both are parts engines. I think I have enough parts to make one runner. But I can usually get more parts an eBay.

All the parts except the frame and body are the same as the Shifter.

1952 sounds about right. I too went through the documents on HO Seeker.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, February 21, 2016 11:34 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Dockside VS Booster?

Bob,

As I've always liked my Varney Docksides, I've never owned a Mantua Booster, so I'm unable to give you a comparison first-hand. I do understand though, that the Booster was about equal to the Dockside in quality.

In looking through Mantua literature (and other sources), I see nothing on the Booster indicating it was produced before 1953. In checking out the Mantua catalogs, they produced a very similar saddletanker called "The Little 'B' 0-4-0," starting in the 1948 Mantua Catalog and Handbook of that year. The September 1951 mini-catalog still does not include it (but continues to carry "The Little 'B' 0-4-0." The Mantua HO Model Railroad Locomotive and Car Kit Replacement Parts List catalog dated August 1952 does not include it, nor does the 63 page Mantua's HO Scale Model Railroad Cyclopedia, with the same date.

A small (5 1/2" x 3 3/4") undated 6-page brochure does include it, as well as including "Mantua's New Model Railroad Cyclopedia, so we can assume it was produced in late 1952, after the two previously mentioned Mantua booklets came out. Model R.R. Equipment Corp.'s 1953 catalog includes it.

There were two members of the HO Scale & History SIG (NRHS) who confirmed that the Mantua Booster had a nylon frame (part #3222) in 1952, as dated with the instruction sheets that came with each of these members' kits that included that date printed on them (the same nylon frame was used in The Streetcar, as part #3223). This is not to say I'm verifying the 1952 date as the Booster having a nylon frame that year, as Mantua may have included the same instruction sheet with subsequent year's Boosters, but it's something to look for. Since 1952 would still fall within the Korean War period, it's still possible for at least some 1952 Boosters to have had a nylon frame if Mantua was being plagued with zinc rot in this particular part at that time.

Ray Wetzel.

In a message dated 2/21/2016 11:13:53 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

How does the Mantua Booster compare to the Varney Dockside?

When was the Booster first produced? I have a couple full metal Boosters. But both major repair work. I've also got a couple of all metal Shifters.

I also have a Model Power Booster. I plan to see what the part interchangeability is.

So is the Booster a viable alternative to the Dockside. I do have both. But no operational track right now.

Bob Macklin

Seattle, Wa

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25207	From: Bob Macklin	Date: 2/22/2016
Subject: Re: Dockside VS Booster?

I have several Docksides including one that appears to be about as NIB as one might find these days. It is a pre 1955 version. it appears to have been assembled but never run. The gears are not engaged. The flashing on the castings has not been removed. It was never painted.

My thought for this one is to clean it up and adjust it and use it as is. It cost me $22!

I have a post 1960 Dockside with the CV valve gear. It's the one I figure to fix to really run. But it has broken footboards on the plastic shell.

I also have 95% of the parts from Bowser to assemble a completely new dockside. I will do this one with the NWSL motor/gear conversion. This will be a runner.

I have the parts for two Boosters. Probably enough to make a single running unit. I also have a NEW Model Power Booster.

I also have several Mantua Shifters that are pretty much the same as the Booster.

One of the Shifters is an early 1950's in the original box. It has the valve gear. And the original instructions. But it was poorly packed and the frame is broken as is the tab on the boiler to attach the cab. I have a replacement boiler and frame. The tender has ZINC ROT but I have a replacement tender.

I plan to rebuild this one as close to original as possible. Maybe not paint it.

I may rebuild some Shifters with the plastic cab and tender shells.

NWSL does make a replacement gear for the Mantua 0-4-0s.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: Richard Dipping richarddipping@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, February 22, 2016 11:00 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Dockside VS Booster?

On the nylon framed Booster, the cylinders were also nylon, and the insulated dive wheels were nylon, including the flanges. The engine had only two wheels collecting current. So you had one live and one insulated wheel on each side. Kemtron had a four wheel trailing truck designed for the 'Nylon' Booster that would give the engine an additional two wheels picking up.

I think that public acceptance of the Nylon Booster was less than Mantua hoped for, so it was redesigned with all Zamac components.

Now...the really rare Booster was the first run version in which the side tanks had a sloping top surface. It appeared in a few early ads.

Richard

-----Original Message-----
From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sun, Feb 21, 2016 9:21 pm
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Dockside VS Booster?

Sean,

Okay, then you're echoing what I found, on the Booster first being offered in (late) 1952 -- or as you indicate, possible 1953 -- and it originally came out with a plastic (nylon) frame. After I sent my message, it occurred to me that if the 1952 plans for it had the parts numbers listed, this would show that the model had a plastic (nylon) frame if it was listed as part #3222. Great looking custom jobs. The all-weather cab -- being a bit "overboard" reminds me of the Cab-Forward front that was available for the Varney Dockside, It too, looked a bit "overboard" when that was installed. They both looked very custom though with those additions.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/21/2016 5:20:28 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Bob, Ray,

It is my understanding that the Booster was first offered in 1952-1953 and originally came out with the plastic frame and brass contact plates which were also like bearings for the axles. The engine motor was grounded via a screw/wire to the shell, just under the rear tank.

It is a pretty good running dependable engine. A little bit of a better design than that of the Varney Dockside. The contact brush on the Mantua was a better design in my opinion. They both lend very nicely to custom detailing. Having owned about a hundred of each, I can say on a consistent basis, the Mantua engine is easier to get running as well as will usually run on first try after sitting for a very long time. Varneys tend to be a bit more stubborn. Looks wise... I think the stock Dockside vs the stock Booster/Little 6 wins hands down, however add a few details and or pilot truck/trailing truck and the Booster looks very interesting. It also lends itself to a lot of other different customizations a lot easier as well.

Here are a few I customized in my collection:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/9977705@N05/sets/72157627595258142

View on www.flickr.com

Preview by Yahoo

Here is one I have that was purchased this way:

Brass & Diecast Custom Mantua 2-4-4T Forney Booster Switcher Steam Locomotive

Brass & Diecast Custom Mantua 2-4-4T Forney Booster S...

View on www.flickr.com

Preview by Yahoo

This one I just added a few details to:

Custom Mantua 0-6-0 Booster Switcher Steam Locomotive

Custom Mantua 0-6-0 Booster Switcher Steam Locomotive

View on www.flickr.com

Preview by Yahoo

This one I went a little overboard on:

Custom Mantua All Weather Cab 2-6-2 Steam Loco

Custom Mantua All Weather Cab 2-6-2 Steam Loco

View on www.flickr.com

Preview by Yahoo

Custom Mantua All Weather Cab 2-6-2 Steam Loco

Custom Mantua All Weather Cab 2-6-2 Steam Loco

View on www.flickr.com

Preview by Yahoo

Therefore if you like to do any sort of custom wortk, I would chose the Mantua Booster.

Sincerely,

Sean

From: "Bob Macklin macklinbob@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, February 21, 2016 3:20 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Dockside VS Booster?

Ray,

I have two early Boosters with zinc frames. But both are parts engines. I think I have enough parts to make one runner. But I can usually get more parts an eBay.

All the parts except the frame and body are the same as the Shifter.

1952 sounds about right. I too went through the documents on HO Seeker.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, February 21, 2016 11:34 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Dockside VS Booster?

Bob,

As I've always liked my Varney Docksides, I've never owned a Mantua Booster, so I'm unable to give you a comparison first-hand. I do understand though, that the Booster was about equal to the Dockside in quality.

In looking through Mantua literature (and other sources), I see nothing on the Booster indicating it was produced before 1953. In checking out the Mantua catalogs, they produced a very similar saddletanker called "The Little 'B' 0-4-0," starting in the 1948 Mantua Catalog and Handbook of that year. The September 1951 mini-catalog still does not include it (but continues to carry "The Little 'B' 0-4-0." The Mantua HO Model Railroad Locomotive and Car Kit Replacement Parts List catalog dated August 1952 does not include it, nor does the 63 page Mantua's HO Scale Model Railroad Cyclopedia, with the same date.

A small (5 1/2" x 3 3/4") undated 6-page brochure does include it, as well as including "Mantua's New Model Railroad Cyclopedia, so we can assume it was produced in late 1952, after the two previously mentioned Mantua booklets came out. Model R.R. Equipment Corp.'s 1953 catalog includes it.

There were two members of the HO Scale & History SIG (NRHS) who confirmed that the Mantua Booster had a nylon frame (part #3222) in 1952, as dated with the instruction sheets that came with each of these members' kits that included that date printed on them (the same nylon frame was used in The Streetcar, as part #3223). This is not to say I'm verifying the 1952 date as the Booster having a nylon frame that year, as Mantua may have included the same instruction sheet with subsequent year's Boosters, but it's something to look for. Since 1952 would still fall within the Korean War period, it's still possible for at least some 1952 Boosters to have had a nylon frame if Mantua was being plagued with zinc rot in this particular part at that time.

Ray Wetzel.

In a message dated 2/21/2016 11:13:53 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

How does the Mantua Booster compare to the Varney Dockside?

When was the Booster first produced? I have a couple full metal Boosters. But both major repair work. I've also got a couple of all metal Shifters.

I also have a Model Power Booster. I plan to see what the part interchangeability is.

So is the Booster a viable alternative to the Dockside. I do have both. But no operational track right now.

Bob Macklin

Seattle, Wa

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25208	From: John Hagen	Date: 2/22/2016
Subject: Re: Dockside VS Booster?

Mantua Boosters are generally cheaper than Varney Docksides. That said, Life-Like also produced a version and are generally available rather inexpensively. And there was also a AHM or Rivarossi version, some with valve gear. However, these had deep flanges and the valve gear equipped versions had some silly looking pieces involved.

The Docksides were model of the 4 class C16 (#’s 96 – 99) B&O locos purchased for the express purpose of switching the Baltimore docks. There short wheel base and lack of a tender made them perfect for the purpose. And, with the water being carried on the loco, they had great power, especially when the tank was full. Likewise the oil tank use for fuel. Two of them (96 & 99) were converted within a few years to coal burning tender 040, class C16a, and used elsewhere on the system. #’s 97 & 98 remained C16’s and ran well into the 50’s on the docks.

The Varney Docksides (or Life Likes) came without valve gears or even crosshead guides. Later on Bowser came out with them and did have cross head guides at least. Valve gear kits were available for both and you can still find them on eBay but the prices!

The Mantua Boosters, other than the first, nylon framed models, were (are) rugged as hell. I do not know of any well know prototype but they look good and can be modified to taste. Valve gears are also available and at generally lower cost than Docksiders.

If you want a B&O model, get the Varney. If you want an industrial 0-4-0T, get the Mantua. Repairs are easy and parts are plentiful.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Sunday, February 21, 2016 5:01 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Dockside VS Booster?

I didn’t think the Mantua Booster could be worn out.

Breaking the steps seemed to be the only potentially delicate parts on them.

The Mantua Booster is quite typical of the generic industrial tank-switcher fleet found almost everywhere around the country.

I lean towards the Booster as being a more typical model, and in general, built as solid as a brick.

Best to ya,

Mike Bauers

Milwaukee, Wi

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Group: vintageHO	Message: 25209	From: digbee@...	Date: 2/22/2016
Subject: Re: Dockside VS Booster? Now Personal Message..

Hi Sean. I have a question for you re Japanese Trains, could you please contact me on
digbee @ clear.net.nz (remove spaces..)
Many Thanks.
Doug Harris
Auckland New Zealand..

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25210	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 2/23/2016
Subject: Re: Dockside VS Booster?

On 2/22/2016 8:24 AM, corlissbs@... [vintageHO] wrote:

You made great progress. The engine looks great.

Brad

Thanks. You did all the hard work.

Don

-- Don Dellmann Contact me at: don.dellmann@... See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25211	From: Walter Bayer II	Date: 2/23/2016
Subject: Re: Yank Models Water Tank

Super job! Looks great!

Regards,
Walter

On Sun, Feb 21, 2016 at 5:03 PM, nvrr49@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

I recently completed an vintage water tower kit, Nirvana Valley Model Railroad: Yank Models Water Tower, a Vintage Kit

Nirvana Valley Model Railroad: Yank Models Wat...
I picked this up last year at an estate sale at the Mid America Train and Toy Show at the KCI Expo Center.

View on nvrr49.blogspot.com

Preview by Yahoo

Kent in KC
nvrr49.blogspot.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25212	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 2/23/2016
Subject: Re: Yank Models Water Tank

Thanks for sending the pics of this water tower. Nice find and nicely done; great looking structure. I don't recall this manufacturer's name, but what I could find out, they started in 1947, offering fine quality kits in both 0 scale and H0 scale. It appears your GN Water Tower was produced in 1949. There's not one mention of Yank Models Research, Inc. in all of the 15 years (1982 -- 1997) of the quarterly "Reporting Mark" bulletin published by the HO Scale Collectors & History SIG (Special Interest Group) -- NMRA group, seemingly indicating the scarcity of these Yank model kits. There's no doubt that they left nothing to be desired in their choices of quality building materials. BTW, instruction plans for this Yank Models catalog # 109 can be found on HO Seekers. Thanks for sharing.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/21/2016 12:03:59 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

I recently completed an vintage water tower kit, Nirvana Valley Model Railroad: Yank Models Water Tower, a Vintage Kit

< div class="link-enhancr-element" style="padding:7px 20px 0px 14px;"> Nirvana Valley Model Railroad: Yank Models Wat...
I picked this up last year at an estate sale at the Mid America Train and Toy Show at the KCI Expo Center.

View on nvrr49.blogspot.com

Preview by Yahoo

Kent in KC

nvrr49.blogspot.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25213	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 2/23/2016
Subject: Craftsman Question

I’ve got a want for some HO cars that I can only get from one source of home-caster on eBay.

The problem is that they are full of pin-holes and need some more work like refining the door lines and making the windows flat and smooth. Scribers, engravers and a bit of milling will fix the windows and doors.

I most need to fill the pinholes and polish the body to make it look better. What can you suggest I use to fill those holes before I start to polish and prime the body?

I’ll attach a picture of one of his cars.

thanks..

Best to ya,

Mike Bauers

Milwaukee, Wi

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25214	From: roger_aultman	Date: 2/23/2016
Subject: Re: Craftsman Question [1 Attachment]

--
I have some similar cars fortunately they did not have that issue, perhaps one of the fillers from the craft store would do the job. Have you decided how to deal with the glass areas? I used glossy black which while not the greatest seemed ok, one of our club members used a silver color. This was passable but not overly convincing.
Roger Aultman

-- "Mike Bauers mwbauers55@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

=============
I’ve got a want for some HO cars that I can only get from one source of home-caster on eBay.

The problem is that they are full of pin-holes and need some more work like refining the door lines and making the windows flat and smooth. Scribers, engravers and a bit of milling will fix the windows and doors.

I most need to fill the pinholes and polish the body to make it look better. What can you suggest I use to fill those holes before I start to polish and prime the body?

I’ll attach a picture of one of his cars.

thanks..

Best to ya,
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25215	From: louis niederlander	Date: 2/23/2016
Subject: Re: Craftsman Question [1 Attachment]

Attachments :

Just curious Mike, where did you find these and are they available in O scale?

Looks like polyurethane; is it slick to paint? Trying to think of a solution.

Louis N

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Mike Bauers mwbauers55@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2016 5:19 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vintageHO] Craftsman Question [1 Attachment]

[Attachment(s) from Mike Bauers included below]

I’ve got a want for some HO cars that I can only get from one source of home-caster on eBay.

I most need to fill the pinholes and polish the body to make it look better. What can you suggest I use to fill those holes before I start to polish and prime the body?

I’ll attach a picture of one of his cars.

thanks..

Best to ya,

Mike Bauers

Milwaukee, Wi

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25216	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 2/23/2016
Subject: Re: Craftsman Question

On 2/23/2016 1:11 PM, raul@... [vintageHO] wrote:

--
I have some similar cars fortunately they did not have that issue, perhaps one of the fillers from the craft store would do the job. Have you decided how to deal with the glass areas? I used glossy black which while not the greatest seemed ok, one of our club members used a silver color. This was passable but not overly convincing.
Roger Aultman

-- "Mike Bauers mwbauers55@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

=============
I’ve got a want for some HO cars that I can only get from one source of home-caster on eBay.

The problem is that they are full of pin-holes and need some more work like refining the door lines and making the windows flat and smooth. Scribers, engravers and a bit of milling will fix the windows and doors.

I most need to fill the pinholes and polish the body to make it look better. What can you suggest I use to fill those holes before I start to polish and prime the body?

I’ll attach a picture of one of his cars.

thanks..

Best to ya,
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi

I have a number of them from the same fellow (In fact the picture on his ebay store site is my layout!) I just used Testors enamel to paint them, and the paint was thick enough to fill the holes.

Don

-- Don Dellmann Contact me at: don.dellmann@... See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25217	From: trainliker	Date: 2/23/2016
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Craftsman Question [1 Attachment]

Attachments :

s-l1600-25217.jpg

Just brainstorming:

You might start with spraying an overall light coat of primer. This will make any issues, not just pinholes, more visible. The pinholes seem so small, they may not need filling with a putty product. Instead, you could maybe just daub on a little primer more heavily in those places and let that be the filler. Then sand smooth.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Windows Mail

From: corlissbs@... [vintageHO]
Sent: ‎Tuesday‎, ‎February‎ ‎23‎, ‎2016 ‎9‎:‎19‎ ‎AM
To: corlissbs@... [vintageHO]

[Attachment(s) from Mike Bauers included below]

I’ve got a want for some HO cars that I can only get from one source of home-caster on eBay.

I most need to fill the pinholes and polish the body to make it look better. What can you suggest I use to fill those holes before I start to polish and prime the body?

I’ll attach a picture of one of his cars.

thanks..

Best to ya,

Mike Bauers

Milwaukee, Wi

@@attachment@@

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25218	From: Fred Holladay	Date: 2/23/2016
Subject: Re: Craftsman Question [1 Attachment]

             Mike
     There are a number of products available in your LHS if they cater to plastic modelers.  Most are, or are based on DuPont Glazing Putty, an auto body filler for small imperfections.  Sold as Green Stuff in small tubes at our level. DuPont's smallest tube is 1 pound, which will dry rock hard in the tube long before you can finish it.  I think brand names for this and similar products are Squadron, Model Master, and Micro Scale.  Similar products are available from Tamiya and Gunze (Mr Surfacer). There are also a couple of epoxies, such as Miliput, which would work.  The DuPont stuff sands easily and is thined with lacquer thinner.
     Those are toothpick ,fine grit paper and Opti-visor jobs but can be done.  A bigger one will be digging out a relief in the casting to mount the wheels.
            Fred Holladay

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25219	From: gbwdude	Date: 2/23/2016
Subject: Mantua #305 caboose roof top light

Group,

According to the parts sheet on HOSeeker the part that holds the cupola on the caboose roof and carbody is a roof light. I've only seen these lights on prototype early cabooses and am just curious to its purpose on the real deal.

Tyler

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25220	From: roblmclear	Date: 2/23/2016
Subject: Re: Craftsman Question

Mike

I have been modelling in various forms for ages and started in plastic model aircraft, what you need to find is a product called Mr Surfacer, it comes in jars that would be similar to a Testors paint jar, there are three levels of it with differing viscosity, I think the medium would do fine for what you need.

Rob McLear

Aussie

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25221	From: trainliker	Date: 2/24/2016
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Craftsman Question

I have used the “Squadron Green” putty quite a bit on plastic models. I think it to be too thick and hard to use on the teeny tiny holes, though. You would probably have trouble getting it to stick and little chunks of it will roll up and fall off as you struggle to work it.

I see “Mr. Surfacer” was mentioned. New product to me. Looks very promising.

Here is a YouTube tutorial on it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGyIrQfhoGI

For this application, however, I’m not sure how different it would be from just putting on a little more primer or paint on the pinholes.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Windows Mail

From: corlissbs@... [vintageHO]
Sent: ‎Tuesday‎, ‎February‎ ‎23‎, ‎2016 ‎2‎:‎24‎ ‎PM
To: corlissbs@... [vintageHO]

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25222	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 2/24/2016
Subject: Re: Dockside VS Booster?

Hi Ray!

Thanks! Yeah, i like them overboard custom jobs! Makes it fun and interesting!

Sean

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 21, 2016, at 10:21 PM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Sean,

Okay, then you're echoing what I found, on the Booster first being offered in (late) 1952 -- or as you indicate, possible 1953 -- and it originally came out with a plastic (nylon) frame. After I sent my message, it occurred to me that if the 1952 plans for it had the parts numbers listed, this would show that the model had a plastic (nylon) frame if it was listed as part #3222. Great looking custom jobs. The all-weather cab -- being a bit "overboard" reminds me of the Cab-Forward front that was available for the Varney Dockside, It too, looked a bit "overboard" when that was installed. They both looked very custom though with those additions.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 2/21/2016 5:20:28 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Bob, Ray,

It is my understanding that the Booster was first offered in 1952-1953 and originally came out with the plastic frame and brass contact plates which were also like bearings for the axles. The engine motor was grounded via a screw/wire to the shell, just under the rear tank.

It is a pretty good running dependable engine. A little bit of a better design than that of the Varney Dockside. The contact brush on the Mantua was a better design in my opinion. They both lend very nicely to custom detailing. Having owned about a hundred of each, I can say on a consistent basis, the Mantua engine is easier to get running as well as will usually run on first try after sitting for a very long time. Varneys tend to be a bit more stubborn. Looks wise... I think the stock Dockside vs the stock Booster/Little 6 wins hands down, however add a few details and or pilot truck/trailing truck and the Booster looks very interesting. It also lends itself to a lot of other different customizations a lot easier as well.

Here are a few I customized in my collection:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/9977705@N05/sets/72157627595258142

View on www.flickr.com

Preview by Yahoo

Here is one I have that was purchased this way:

Brass & Diecast Custom Mantua 2-4-4T Forney Booster Switcher Steam Locomotive

Brass & Diecast Custom Mantua 2-4-4T Forney Booster S...

View on www.flickr.com

Preview by Yahoo

This one I just added a few details to:

Custom Mantua 0-6-0 Booster Switcher Steam Locomotive

Custom Mantua 0-6-0 Booster Switcher Steam Locomotive

View on www.flickr.com

Preview by Yahoo

This one I went a little overboard on:

Custom Mantua All Weather Cab 2-6-2 Steam Loco

Custom Mantua All Weather Cab 2-6-2 Steam Loco

View on www.flickr.com

Preview by Yahoo

Custom Mantua All Weather Cab 2-6-2 Steam Loco

Custom Mantua All Weather Cab 2-6-2 Steam Loco

View on www.flickr.com

Preview by Yahoo

Therefore if you like to do any sort of custom wortk, I would chose the Mantua Booster.

Sincerely,

Sean

From: "Bob Macklin macklinbob@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, February 21, 2016 3:20 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Dockside VS Booster?

Ray,

I have two early Boosters with zinc frames. But both are parts engines. I think I have enough parts to make one runner. But I can usually get more parts an eBay.

All the parts except the frame and body are the same as the Shifter.

1952 sounds about right. I too went through the documents on HO Seeker.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, February 21, 2016 11:34 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Dockside VS Booster?

Bob,

As I've always liked my Varney Docksides, I've never owned a Mantua Booster, so I'm unable to give you a comparison first-hand. I do understand though, that the Booster was about equal to the Dockside in quality.

In looking through Mantua literature (and other sources), I see nothing on the Booster indicating it was produced before 1953. In checking out the Mantua catalogs, they produced a very similar saddletanker called "The Little 'B' 0-4-0," starting in the 1948 Mantua Catalog and Handbook of that year. The September 1951 mini-catalog still does not include it (but continues to carry "The Little 'B' 0-4-0." The Mantua HO Model Railroad Locomotive and Car Kit Replacement Parts List catalog dated August 1952 does not include it, nor does the 63 page Mantua's HO Scale Model Railroad Cyclopedia, with the same date.

A small (5 1/2" x 3 3/4") undated 6-page brochure does include it, as well as including "Mantua's New Model Railroad Cyclopedia, so we can assume it was produced in late 1952, after the two previously mentioned Mantua booklets came out. Model R.R. Equipment Corp.'s 1953 catalog includes it.

There were two members of the HO Scale & History SIG (NRHS) who confirmed that the Mantua Booster had a nylon frame (part #3222) in 1952, as dated with the instruction sheets that came with each of these members' kits that included that date printed on them (the same nylon frame was used in The Streetcar, as part #3223). This is not to say I'm verifying the 1952 date as the Booster having a nylon frame that year, as Mantua may have included the same instruction sheet with subsequent year's Boosters, but it's something to look for. Since 1952 would still fall within the Korean War period, it's still possible for at least some 1952 Boosters to have had a nylon frame if Mantua was being plagued with zinc rot in this particular part at that time.

Ray Wetzel.

In a message dated 2/21/2016 11:13:53 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

How does the Mantua Booster compare to the Varney Dockside?

When was the Booster first produced? I have a couple full metal Boosters. But both major repair work. I've also got a couple of all metal Shifters.

I also have a Model Power Booster. I plan to see what the part interchangeability is.

So is the Booster a viable alternative to the Dockside. I do have both. But no operational track right now.

Bob Macklin

Seattle, Wa

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25223	From: Russ Shiel	Date: 2/25/2016
Subject: Re: Yank Models Water Tank

Ray...Dave Spanagel was looking for information on 'Yank - structures' (TRM 19(1), Oct 2000), but there's nothing further through to the end of the newsletter at Vol. 24(4), July 2006...apparently none of the members of the SIG could help. Cheers! Russ in Adelaide

From: "eriepacific@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, 24 February 2016, 1:17
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Yank Models Water Tank

Ray Wetzel

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25224	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 2/25/2016
Subject: Re: Yank Models Water Tank

Russ,

Okay, I didn't think Dave Spanagel found any info at all on Yank Models Research. I haven't been able to conveniently search through volumes 16 through 24 very easily. Do you have an index for those volumes? Ray W.

In a message dated 2/25/2016 2:26:28 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

[Unable to display image]

From: "eriepacific@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, 24 February 2016, 1:17
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Yank Models Water Tank

Ray Wetzel

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25225	From: James Bartelt	Date: 2/28/2016
Subject: Model Train Show & Swap Meet Cedarburg, WI Sunday 3-6-2016

METRO Model Railroad Club’s 21st annual railroad show and swap meet on
Sunday, March 6th at Circle B Recreation on Highway 60 in Cedarburg
will run from 9 a.m. to 4 p.m.
Show Chairman Jim Bartelt said the club is constantly striving to make
the show fresh and to show the public the interesting things that are
happening in the world of model trains.
METRO will be bringing back its own HO layout that has twice been
judged best in the nation at the National Train Show. One of the most
highly detailed layouts ever built and now freshened up after many
years of display, it has many animations and numerous (and humorous)
details designed to delight children of all ages.
The Lakeshore O-Scale Railroaders will again be bringing a Lionel
layout to the show and permitting anyone to run the trains. Kids can
also fire missiles from train cars, unload barrels and milk cans, and
enjoy seeing in small scale some of their favorite movie and TV
characters.
The Kettle Moraine Ballast Scorchers club of West Bend, WI will bring
their popular N scale layout. It features various scenes of small town
America with large numbers of vehicles and various eye catching scenes
such as a train derailment, a train watching park, and interesting
industries served by railroads.
Other returnees include the WIZ KidZ, who will be bringing Z scale
trains. These are models so small that a layout can be built in a
cigar box. The West Bend, Jackson and Southern will showing examples
of G scale equipment that is most frequently used to create outdoor
garden railroads, and also some #1 scale trains, which are trains
large enough to actually ride on.
In addition, more than 50 tables of dealers and swappers will be on
hand to buy, sell and trade model railroad equipment, both new and
used. The many club members and dealers on hand will be able to help
modelers young and old with layout design, problem solving, and scenic
hints.
This is the 21st consecutive year for the show, which has become the
largest in southeast Wisconsin after Milwaukee’s TrainFest. Membership
in all of the clubs showing is open; attendees can talk to club
members at the show for membership details. METRO can also be found on
the web at www.metrorrclub.org.
Admission is by a $3 donation for adults; as always, children under 12
are admitted free when accompanied by an adult. Sponsors of this
year’s show include Dr. Daniel Witkowski DDS Gentle Family Dentistry
and Tires Unlimited Automotive Services.

For more info contact:

James Bartelt

Show Chairman
262-284-5876
jimbartelt@...

www.metrorrclub.org

--
James Bartelt
jimbartelt@...

METRO RR Club
http://www.metrorrclub.org

METRO RR CLUB SPRING SHOW 2016
http://members.trainorders.com/scrimjimmy/spring.html

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25226	From: denverrails	Date: 2/28/2016
Subject: Parts for a HO Penn Line E-6

I recently acquired an old Penn Line E-6 and while it is in very good condition, it is missing the running boards. I looked at the plan and it appears that the running boards are stamped brass parts with a tab that attaches to the front of the cab and the front is attached with screws at the cylinder saddle.

I am looking for these parts and would pay a fair price for them. Please let me know if you have them and how much you would want for them .

Thanks!

Wally

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25227	From: Bob Macklin	Date: 2/28/2016
Subject: Re: Parts for a HO Penn Line E-6

Bowser has them in stock:

http://www.bowserorders.com/.sc/ms/sch/ee?search=1-722&go.x=0&go.y=0

Here are the instructions:

http://www.bowser-trains.com/docs/instructions/E-6%20Ref%20Pages.pdf

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: dim01521@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, February 28, 2016 5:30 PM

Subject: [vintageHO] Parts for a HO Penn Line E-6

I recently acquired an old Penn Line E-6 and while it is in very good condition, it is missing the running boards. I looked at the plan and it appears that the running boards are stamped brass parts with a tab that attaches to the front of the cab and the front is attached with screws at the cylinder saddle.

I am looking for these parts and would pay a fair price for them. Please let me know if you have them and how much you would want for them .

Thanks!

Wally

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25228	From: John	Date: 2/28/2016
Subject: Consolidation 2-8-0 by Bachmann

I need to replace the drive wheel assembly on my 2-8-0. The stock number from

the original spare parts list is #2606. Bachmann is sold out of this item and I do

not know if it will be restocked.

Any help in finding this part will be greatly appreciated. Thank you!

Best Regards,

John L. Bachman, Jr.

jbachmanjr@...

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25229	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 3/2/2016
Subject: new tool

Please tolerate this one post. I’m not sure it belongs here. I’ll not make a thread of it.

But it almost looks like a tool we modelers could use and at the least is a bit amazing on how cheap a laser engraver can be, it is a couple of degrees from being a true laser cutter.

It’s a ‘wow’ just by being so cheap to make and hints at cheap laser cutters to come along after. [a true cutting laser head on the same thing can be as low as $50 in a higher power]

http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:902826

"The Photon Printer is a 3D printable laser engraver made from recycled DVD Drives. A list of necessary components is in the instructions.

The Photon Printer started out as a quick weekend project then quickly escalated when I saw that there was room for improvement in the current designs. The design turned out to be quite fun and I really enjoyed seeing it work at the end."

I believe it will be only a couple of years before Dremel sells a bigger and more powerful version. One that actually cuts.

As this is, it can cost about $50 to make, if you have to buy the drives. Certainly if you substituted plywood for the 3d printed parts used here. Even less if you have a couple of old computer cd/dvd drives lying around. The laser used can be bought alone for $5.

The ‘Wow' of it is we never dreamed of such a high-tech tool -ever- being so cheap.

Best to ya,
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25230	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 3/6/2016
Subject: Sorta new single truck HO drive

Just found….

A solution for powering one of the little Hustlers with a more modern and compact drive

T&L CRITTER

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtKpqVwQMnw

The first third of that video is way too long of an intro sequence and will bug you, but stick with it and you’ll be in the meat of the power conversion.

Now this will work out well for those Paul Moore like Little Scoots and those Ken Kidder/Gem wrecks and the Mantua/Tyco CR-4 bodies that turn up in the swaps from time to time. Lord knows there are enough orphaned Hustler and CR-4 shells out there waiting for a new drive.

I estimate this can cost as little as $15 for the drive if you buy everything new, the Athearn/Kato power truck and a budget motor.

I’ll be getting a couple of new geared trucks from the hobby shop when it opens this Tuesday, I have some similar to the small Bachmann motors to use for this that didn’t cost me more than a buck a piece compared to the $20 Bachmann motors. It will be worth trying with those.

This is much better than hunting down remaining operating Hustlers or buying the nearly $100 replacement drives the suppliers are offering us..

This will let me Fast-Track the dozen or so Paul Moore Little-Scoot designs with the laser cutter. Which would be a good thing I can focus upon.

SO……

Look over the video, capture it for reference if you’d like…

AND put some feed-back here about the fellows creation.

Best to ya,
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25231	From: Peeper123	Date: 3/6/2016
Subject: Re: Sorta new single truck HO drive

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 6, 2016, at 7:42 PM, Mike Bauers mwbauers55@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

> Just found….
>
> A solution for powering one of the little Hustlers with a more modern and compact drive
>
> T&L CRITTER
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtKpqVwQMnw
>
> The first third of that video is way too long of an intro sequence and will bug you, but stick with it and you’ll be in the meat of the power conversion.
>
> Now this will work out well for those Paul Moore like Little Scoots and those Ken Kidder/Gem wrecks and the Mantua/Tyco CR-4 bodies that turn up in the swaps from time to time. Lord knows there are enough orphaned Hustler and CR-4 shells out there waiting for a new drive.
>
> I estimate this can cost as little as $15 for the drive if you buy everything new, the Athearn/Kato power truck and a budget motor.
>
> I’ll be getting a couple of new geared trucks from the hobby shop when it opens this Tuesday, I have some similar to the small Bachmann motors to use for this that didn’t cost me more than a buck a piece compared to the $20 Bachmann motors. It will be worth trying with those.
>
> This is much better than hunting down remaining operating Hustlers or buying the nearly $100 replacement drives the suppliers are offering us..
>
> This will let me Fast-Track the dozen or so Paul Moore Little-Scoot designs with the laser cutter. Which would be a good thing I can focus upon.
>
> SO……
>
> Look over the video, capture it for reference if you’d like…
>
> AND put some feed-back here about the fellows creation.
>
> Best to ya,
> Mike Bauers
> Milwaukee, Wi
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
> Posted by: Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@...>
> ------------------------------------
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo Groups Links
>
>
>

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25232	From: bobbinbill229	Date: 3/7/2016
Subject: Old Atlas structures

My wife is the chief builder of structures for our layout; I build the scenery. She just finished an old Atlas structure - "Johnsons Inc. Chemical Products." It is a very nice, complete kit with roof details, etc. not usually found on kits. It was made in West Germany - so that tells you how long ago I bought it! I am wondering if anyone has other kits in the series that they might want to sell. I'd like to see what's available, if anything. This is kit #748.

Thanks

Bill Scott

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25233	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 3/7/2016
Subject: Re: Old Atlas structures

On 3/7/2016 1:22 PM, wscott@... [vintageHO] wrote:

My wife is the chief builder of structures for our layout; I build the scenery. She just finished an old Atlas structure - "Johnsons Inc. Chemical Products." It is a very nice, complete kit with roof details, etc. not usually found on kits. It was made in West Germany - so that tells you how long ago I bought it! I am wondering if anyone has other kits in the series that they might want to sell. I'd like to see what's available, if anything. This is kit #748.

Thanks

Bill Scott

Most of the Atlas of that vintage was first Faller, and in later years, Pola.

Don

-- Don Dellmann Contact me at: don.dellmann@... See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25234	From: maryinvt2	Date: 3/14/2016
Subject: AHM RS2/3 Alco Diesels

Expand Messag

Does anyone know if AHM ever made the subject engines with 8-wheel drive or were they all 4-wheel drives? I know that the early ones only had one power truck but I was hoping to find an RS1,2 or 3 with two power trucks so that I can up-date a nice dummy loco that I have.

If the answer is that they all only had one power truck, does anyone know of an all wheel drive chassis that will fit under the AHM shell easily? Thanks in advance for info you can provide. (My apologies for the cross posting on another group.)
Richard in Vermont

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25235	From: Jay Wanczyk	Date: 3/14/2016
Subject: Re: AHM RS2/3 Alco Diesels

Hi Richard in Vermont,

Whether or not AHM imported a version of the RS-2/3 with two powered trucks is a good question. I looked up their parts catalog located at hoseeker.org and found that later versions did indeed have two power trucks from 1976-1980, a surprise to me! Here is the link to the appropriate page:

http://hoseeker.net/AHMRivarossiassembly/ahmbuildersbiblepage102.jpg

Good luck on your project!

W. Jay W.

From: rh@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>;
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>;
Subject: [vintageHO] AHM RS2/3 Alco Diesels
Sent: Tue, Mar 15, 2016 1:15:43 AM

Expand Messag

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25236	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 3/14/2016
Subject: Re: AHM RS2/3 Alco Diesels

Please be advised; AHM made only RS2 ALCo Road Switchers, they did not produce an RS3. Good to find out though, that the dual power truck (8-wheel drive) model was produced by them, apparently in later years.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 3/14/2016 9:15:55 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Expand Messag

Does anyone know if AHM ever made the subject engines with 8-wheel drive or were they all 4-wheel drives? I know that the early ones only had one power truck but I was hoping to find an RS1,2 or 3 with two power trucks so that I can up-date a nice dummy loco that I have.

If the answer is that they all only had one power truck, does anyone know of an all wheel drive chassis that will fit under the AHM shell easily? Thanks in advance for info you can provide. (My apologies for the cross posting on another group.)
Richard in Vermont

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25237	From: Brad Smith	Date: 3/15/2016
Subject: Re: AHM RS2/3 Alco Diesels

I had to kitbash an RS-1 out of their S-2 and RS-2 parts.

Brad Smith

Sent from Brad's iPod

On Mar 14, 2016, at 10:48 PM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Please be advised; AHM made only RS2 ALCo Road Switchers, they did not produce an RS3. Good to find out though, that the dual power truck (8-wheel drive) model was produced by them, apparently in later years.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 3/14/2016 9:15:55 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Expand Messag

Does anyone know if AHM ever made the subject engines with 8-wheel drive or were they all 4-wheel drives? I know that the early ones only had one power truck but I was hoping to find an RS1,2 or 3 with two power trucks so that I can up-date a nice dummy loco that I have.

If the answer is that they all only had one power truck, does anyone know of an all wheel drive chassis that will fit under the AHM shell easily? Thanks in advance for info you can provide. (My apologies for the cross posting on another group.)
Richard in Vermont

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25238	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 3/15/2016
Subject: Re: AHM RS2/3 Alco Diesels

Wow; I'm trying to picture that. That had to be a tough kitbash, especially as RS2's have more-rounded corners. But then, no one made an RS-1 (except maybe in brass), until Atlas came out with it.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 3/15/2016 8:44:15 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

I had to kitbash an RS-1 out of their S-2 and RS-2 parts.

Brad Smith

Sent from Brad's iPod

On Mar 14, 2016, at 10:48 PM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Please be advised; AHM made only RS2 ALCo Road Switchers, they did not produce an RS3. Good to find out though, that the dual power truck (8-wheel drive) model was produced by them, apparently in later years.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 3/14/2016 9:15:55 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Expand Messag

Does anyone know if AHM ever made the subject engines with 8-wheel drive or were they all 4-wheel drives? I know that the early ones only had one power truck but I was hoping to find an RS1,2 or 3 with two power trucks so that I can up-date a nice dummy loco that I have.

If the answer is that they all only had one power truck, does anyone know of an all wheel drive chassis that will fit under the AHM shell easily? Thanks in advance for info you can provide. (My apologies for the cross posting on another group.)
Richard in Vermont

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25239	From: Brad Smith	Date: 3/15/2016
Subject: Re: AHM RS2/3 Alco Diesels

I used two S-2 switcher hoods and cab and the RS-2 chassis. Looked pretty good.

Brad

Sent from Brad's iPod

On Mar 15, 2016, at 10:26 AM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Wow; I'm trying to picture that. That had to be a tough kitbash, especially as RS2's have more-rounded corners. But then, no one made an RS-1 (except maybe in brass), until Atlas came out with it.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 3/15/2016 8:44:15 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

I had to kitbash an RS-1 out of their S-2 and RS-2 parts.

Brad Smith

Sent from Brad's iPod

On Mar 14, 2016, at 10:48 PM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Please be advised; AHM made only RS2 ALCo Road Switchers, they did not produce an RS3. Good to find out though, that the dual power truck (8-wheel drive) model was produced by them, apparently in later years.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 3/14/2016 9:15:55 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Expand Messag

Does anyone know if AHM ever made the subject engines with 8-wheel drive or were they all 4-wheel drives? I know that the early ones only had one power truck but I was hoping to find an RS1,2 or 3 with two power trucks so that I can up-date a nice dummy loco that I have.

If the answer is that they all only had one power truck, does anyone know of an all wheel drive chassis that will fit under the AHM shell easily? Thanks in advance for info you can provide. (My apologies for the cross posting on another group.)
Richard in Vermont

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25240	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/15/2016
Subject: Re: AHM RS2/3 Alco Diesels

I did the same thing using two Cary S2 shells, one on an Athearn GP7/9 chassis with trucks from an Athearn GE and the other using a MDC Roundhouse RS3 drive (yes the early, not that great Roundhouse drive) supplied to me by Don Stromberg, the owner of Cary. I wrote an article on the model and MR bought it but never published it as a couple of weeks later Atlas introduced their RS1 at the 1987 NMRA Convention in Eugene, OR. MR did use their lead photo for the article for the Sept. 1988 “Model of the Month.”

The one with the MDC drive was hard to get running reliably. They used Athearn motors and a redesign of the Athearn trucks but their method of attachment to the frame was poor at best. Unfortunately I sold both to good friend and GN collector. He would help finance my HO habit (almost as bad as heroine back then) with my kit bashed GN Alco’s and numerous GN Brass diesels/electrics that I painted for him. I think between him and a couple of others I modeled each of the 10 GN S2 switchers. I still get the sweats when I think about those paint jobs, as great as they looked when the tape was removed, as I painted those yellow stripes instead of using decaled stripes.

The only real problem with the AHM RS2’s appearance-wise was the handrails. But back then there was little else to chose from. Alco Models did import brass RS2’s but they were not cheap and not all that accurate really. I did kit bash an O scale RS2 using the Weaver plastic RS3 but it was a lot of work to do properly. I have seen several HO RS2’s bashed from RS3’s, usually Atlas, but they always were wrong in some manner or other.

And the Atlas RS3 used the poorest plastic body casting made. The MDC, even the early ones, the Stewarts and even the first mass produced HO RS3 by Hobbytown (either diecast metal or injection molded plastic) were much, much better. That said the Atlas ran like a dream.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2016 11:49 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] AHM RS2/3 Alco Diesels

I used two S-2 switcher hoods and cab and the RS-2 chassis. Looked pretty good.

Brad

Sent from Brad's iPod

On Mar 15, 2016, at 10:26 AM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Wow; I'm trying to picture that. That had to be a tough kitbash, especially as RS2's have more-rounded corners. But then, no one made an RS-1 (except maybe in brass), until Atlas came out with it.

Ray Wetzel
In a message dated 3/15/2016 8:44:15 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

I had to kitbash an RS-1 out of their S-2 and RS-2 parts.

Brad Smith

Sent from Brad's iPod

On Mar 14, 2016, at 10:48 PM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Please be advised; AHM made only RS2 ALCo Road Switchers, they did not produce an RS3. Good to find out though, that the dual power truck (8-wheel drive) model was produced by them, apparently in later years.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 3/14/2016 9:15:55 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Expand Messag
Does anyone know if AHM ever made the subject engines with 8-wheel drive or were they all 4-wheel drives? I know that the early ones only had one power truck but I was hoping to find an RS1,2 or 3 with two power trucks so that I can up-date a nice dummy loco that I have.

If the answer is that they all only had one power truck, does anyone know of an all wheel drive chassis that will fit under the AHM shell easily? Thanks in advance for info you can provide. (My apologies for the cross posting on another group.)
Richard in Vermont

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25241	From: maryinvt2	Date: 3/16/2016
Subject: Re: AHM RS2/3 Alco Diesels

Thanks guys for all your interesting contributions to my post. My problem now is how to figure out where I can get a decent 8-wheel drive RS2 chassis for my shell. So many of the eBayers don't know anything about trains when I ask them a simple question about their models, like "Does this engine have two power trucks"? The answers come back Like "Dah I don't know anything about trains". Another problem is that I am retired and can't afford to spend a bunch on one of these things only to find out I got a junker. Know what I mean?
Richard in Vermont

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25242	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 3/16/2016
Subject: Re: AHM RS2/3 Alco Diesels

Can you solder?

Can you accept a DIY frame chassis under your shell?

If so, you can do as others have and assemble a simple frame made from common hobby shop square brass tubing, and your choice of trucks and motor. You can use one of those very common $2-$5 motors, or one of the more costly typical model railroad motors in this. This is most often done with Athearn or Kato power trucks…. any make will work.

Details in the form of clear photos of such can be posted and possibly the online links I have are still good for the source pages.

As you can guess, this can very very low cost; certainly if you have or can get a pair of geared trucks from a dead model.

Best to ya,

Mike Bauers

Milwaukee, Wi

On Mar 16, 2016, at 9:07 AM, rh@...> wrote:

Thanks guys for all your interesting contributions to my post. My problem now is how to figure out where I can get a decent 8-wheel drive RS2 chassis for my shell. So many of the eBayers don't know anything about trains when I ask them a simple question about their models, like "Does this engine have two power trucks"? The answers come back Like "Dah I don't know anything about trains". Another problem is that I am retired and can't afford to spend a bunch on one of these things only to find out I got a junker. Know what I mean?
Richard in Vermont

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25243	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 3/16/2016
Subject: Re: AHM RS2/3 Alco Diesels

I post this for the use of anyone that has an old model diesel shell or two, can’t get usable original parts, but still wants to operate with that shell.

see the attachments…..

Best to ya,

Mike Bauers

Milwaukee, Wi

On Mar 16, 2016, at 11:17 AM, Mike Bauers mwbauers55@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Can you accept a DIY frame chassis under your shell?

If so, you can do as others have and assemble a simple frame made from common hobby shop square brass tubing, and your choice of trucks and motor. You can use one of those very common $2-$5 motors, or one of the more costly typical model railroad motors in this. This is most often done with Athearn or Kato power trucks…. any make will work.

Details in the form of clear photos of such can be posted and possibly the online links I have are still good for the source pages.

As you can guess, this can very very low cost; certainly if you have or can get a pair of geared trucks from a dead model.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25244	From: corlissbs	Date: 3/16/2016
Subject: Free Red Ball Car Sides

I have a pair of cardboard, Red Ball HO reefer sides that are free to anybody who wants them. Reply here and give me your email address and then send me a SSAE and the sides are yours. They are for Grand Union Food Markets and are a green color that matches Floquil Dark Green paint.

Brad Smith

Franklin, WI

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25245	From: maryinvt2	Date: 3/17/2016
Subject: Re: AHM RS2/3 Alco Diesels

Hello Mike,
Yes I can solder and wow your the man. What a great idea! I was looking for a new project and this is exactly what I needed. I can't thank you enough. Now I'm asking myself, "How come you didn't think of that?" What trucks did you use? I am certainly indebted to you.
Richard in Vermont

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25246	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 3/17/2016
Subject: Re: AHM RS2/3 Alco Diesels

What a great idea! I was looking for a new project and this is exactly what I needed…

You’re very welcome.

I had very similar thoughts when I saw it for the first time.

One point that isn’t seen in that build, is a previous construction using a round headed brass screw as the substitute bolster button you see cast on the center of each molded model diesel chassis. I think the final touch on the button is to fill in the slot on the screw with something.

The somewhat terrifying aspect of the design is that once you are aware of it, you begin to see where it can be used on all sorts of powered rail vehicles [large and small] that would otherwise be too frustrating to power.

There’s a variation on it for slot-cars that would work well for model railroad tiny speeders. In that case they ‘tube’ the axles and make staple-like ‘C’s or ‘U’s that are as long inside the bends as the distance between the axles. To build the frame, you take 3-4 of those for each side and build a restraining frame by first putting a ‘C’ in front of each axle tube, then place one next to that behind each axle tube, followed by one before and again one behind. Fuse the side by side ‘C’s together as a solid beam and do the same build on the other side. I suggest soldering. You end up with a squared frame using those ‘C’ clips and the axle tubes. End up by clipping the vertical legs of the ‘C’s to be flush with the top of the axle tubes or even use some of the extensions as body mount pins.

About 1/32-inch brass rod would work well in HO for the ‘C's.

Add to the build whatever additional supports are needed for the body, gearbox or gear for a powered axle. Or just gap the power axle tube in your build to press and clear a slot-car drive gear on the axle. [ re-axle N-scale wheel sets for your speeders]

When you think about that method, its easy to make a bending ‘fixture’ to mindlessly form the ‘C’s to size from a measured block of wood or strip of metal using brass wire, steel wire, or phosphor bronze wire for the ‘C’s, and with a simple method in use to have the two axle tubes parallel during the build, the parts just sort of slap together.

Thus it’s easy and nearly painless to build a small fleet of Fairmonts, similar speeders, or converted automobile-speeders.

Play a bit with ordinary metal office staples and you might really like to build like that for the tiny models. Super-gluing the ‘C’s during the build would do well enough for unpowered models.

Best to ya,

Mike Bauers

Milwaukee, Wi

On Mar 17, 2016, at 10:10 AM, rh@vermontel wrote:

Hello Mike,
Yes I can solder and wow your the man. What a great idea! I was looking for a new project and this is exactly what I needed. I can't thank you enough. Now I'm asking myself, "How come you didn't think of that?" What trucks did you use? I am certainly indebted to you.
Richard in Vermont

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25247	From: trainliker	Date: 3/17/2016
Subject: Looking for custom builders plate, nameplate, source

Does anyone know of anyone who can make very small builders plates like we see in HO. (My application is a little different as I need very small plates for unobtrusive identification on the bottom of rolling stock.)

Thanks,

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Windows Mail

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25248	From: Dave Audley	Date: 3/18/2016
Subject: Re: Looking for custom builders plate, nameplate, source

Contact one of the etching manufacturers as they can do small etched brass ( or other metals )

with a name etched into the brass. Maybe Plano or Details West. There are others.

Dave Audley

On Friday, March 18, 2016 12:26 AM, "ckinzer@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Thanks,

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Windows Mail

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25249	From: anypaddler	Date: 3/18/2016
Subject: Re: AHM RS2/3 Alco Diesels

Mike Bauers wrote:

< using a round headed brass screw as the substitute bolster button you see cast on the center of each molded model diesel chassis. I think the final touch on the button is to fill in the slot on the screw with something.
---------------------------------

Although they're more difficult to find in the smaller sizes, I would think a Phillips head screw would be a good choice. They're smooth all the way around, and you might not even have to fill in the depression in the center. Just an idea.

Ralph V. Balfoort
Retired D&H and VRS

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25250	From: trainliker	Date: 3/18/2016
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Looking for custom builders plate, nameplate, source

I was looking for something with color, such as black, like a builders plate, with just the lettering being bright.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Windows Mail

From: corlissbs@... [vintageHO]
Sent: ‎Friday‎, ‎March‎ ‎18‎, ‎2016 ‎4‎:‎16‎ ‎AM
To: corlissbs@... [vintageHO]

Contact one of the etching manufacturers as they can do small etched brass ( or other metals )

with a name etched into the brass. Maybe Plano or Details West. There are others.

Dave Audley

On Friday, March 18, 2016 12:26 AM, "ckinzer@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Thanks,

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Windows Mail

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25251	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 3/18/2016
Subject: Re: Looking for custom builders plate, nameplate, source

I don’t know if the resolution for such is going to be readable.

I can suggest the ‘micro-stanp’ as being very tiny and readable.

Check out this image..

http://microstamp.us/index.php?main_page=popup_image&pID=85

http://microstamp.us

or their Tracemark…

“ The Trace Mark stamp permanently impresses your name, driver's license or personal code with characters as small as .010 inches tall. This size is not visible until magnified, and there are larger sizes available to chose from. The largest size is just at the visible range, yet still very small. Please note that the Trace Mark stamp is used for small marks. Its is not intended to create a mark that will "jump out" at the reader like an advertisement.

Almost invisible to the naked eye, the Trace Mark stamp, when used to identify valuables for security purposes passes unnoticed by thieves and is therefore not removed as so often happens with product serial numbers. In the event of a theft, however, the identifying mark left by the Trace Mark provides an indelible link to the recovery of your valuables. “

Best to ya,
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi

> On Mar 18, 2016, at 9:12 AM, ckinzer@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> I was looking for something with color, such as black, like a builders plate, with just the lettering being bright.
>
> Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer
>
> Sent from Windows Mail
>
> From: corlissbs
>
>
> Contact one of the etching manufacturers as they can do small etched brass ( or other metals )
> with a name etched into the brass. Maybe Plano or Details West. There are others.
>
> Dave Audley
>
>
> On Friday, March 18, 2016 12:26 AM, "ckinzer@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Does anyone know of anyone who can make very small builders plates like we see in HO. (My application is a little different as I need very small plates for unobtrusive identification on the bottom of rolling stock.)
>
> Thanks,
> Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25252	From: trainliker	Date: 3/18/2016
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Looking for custom builders plate, nameplate, source

Actually, I want it to be readable by human eye. It’s for identifying club rolling stock versus members’ rolling stock.

I figure there must be somebody that can do small thin plates ala boilers plates or perhaps little aluminum plates. For the latter, all I can find so far make them thicker and larger than I want.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Windows Mail

From: corlissbs@... [vintageHO]
Sent: ‎Friday‎, ‎March‎ ‎18‎, ‎2016 ‎9‎:‎50‎ ‎AM
To: corlissbs@... [vintageHO]

> On Mar 18, 2016, at 9:12 AM, ckinzer@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> I was looking for something with color, such as black, like a builders plate, with just the lettering being bright.
>
> Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer
>
> Sent from Windows Mail
>
> From: corlissbs
>
>
> Contact one of the etching manufacturers as they can do small etched brass ( or other metals )
> with a name etched into the brass. Maybe Plano or Details West. There are others.
>
> Dave Audley
>
>
> On Friday, March 18, 2016 12:26 AM, "ckinzer@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Does anyone know of anyone who can make very small builders plates like we see in HO. (My application is a little different as I need very small plates for unobtrusive identification on the bottom of rolling stock.)
>
> Thanks,
> Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25253	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 3/18/2016
Subject: Re: Looking for custom builders plate, nameplate, source

It seems that in the range of micro to tiny, that everything between small and micro is unreadable, with micro being readable.

I wonder how good of a resolution the new $90 laser engravers have ? I see they do cleanly readable printing on toothpicks. I see it as half of the solution. What do you laser print on, that can be mounted as your ‘label’?

I understand you aren’t thinking of a do-it-yourself solution. But this sort of project can be home-made completely cut with one of the new $600 laser cutter-engravers in plastics, card, or woods. An adhesive backed plastic would work for the needed material……..

this is a nasty, sloppy address, but it shows a laser engraved toothpick….. now if you did a ‘herald’ instead with a laser that can also cut it free from the material…..

http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NjAwWDYwMA==/z/mOIAAOSwll1W0O0s/$_10.JPG?set_id=880000500F

Or….. laser engrave Dymo plastic label tape with an included frame around the printed id plate as a square ‘plate', then cut the square from the tape and glue it onto the model underside. Maybe there’s a good label stock that can also be used?

That gets back into the $90 laser engraver abilities,.

While it might not be anything that you are thinking of, someone else might want to do something like it.

“ . 512x512 high Resolution Print,Soft material can print out the 3D and the gradient effect "

Here’s one of those newer laser engravers…

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hot-Sale-NEJE-500mW-USB-DIY-Laser-Engraver-Printer-Machine-Print-Logo-Picture-/231693528516

I really suspect that for smaller, readable printing, some sort of laser will need to be part of the making of the id labels.

OR……

HOW ABOUT MAKING a photographic version of each id plate and then printing out several plates in a photo to cut and apply to the models?

Once you make the photo-master on a computer, [make one, have the program fill the screen, or photo 4x6, with copies of them] you can take the file to any instant photo-print kiosk and print out filled photos of them to cut and apply. I’ve done the like for small model ad signs that go on the sides of HO trolleys and are quite readable. Won’t be engraved, but will be photo-real. Use a really aggressive glue and they would work for id labels.

Best to ya,

Mike Bauers

Milwaukee, Wi

On Mar 18, 2016, at 12:12 PM, ckinzer@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Actually, I want it to be readable by human eye. It’s for identifying club rolling stock versus members’ rolling stock.

I figure there must be somebody that can do small thin plates ala boilers plates or perhaps little aluminum plates. For the latter, all I can find so far make them thicker and larger than I want.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Windows Mail

From: corlissbs@... [vintageHO]
Sent: ‎Friday‎, ‎March‎ ‎18‎, ‎2016 ‎9‎:‎50‎ ‎AM
To: corlissbs@... [vintageHO]

I don’t know if the resolution for such is going to be readable.

I can suggest the ‘micro-stanp’ as being very tiny and readable.

Check out this image..

http://microstamp.us/index.php?main_page=popup_image&pID=85

http://microstamp.us

or their Tracemark…

“ The Trace Mark stamp permanently impresses your name, driver's license or personal code with characters as small as .010 inches tall. This size is not visible until magnified, and there are larger sizes available to chose from. The largest size is just at the visible range, yet still very small. Please note that the Trace Mark stamp is used for small marks. Its is not intended to create a mark that will "jump out" at the reader like an advertisement.

Almost invisible to the naked eye, the Trace Mark stamp, when used to identify valuables for security purposes passes unnoticed by thieves and is therefore not removed as so often happens with product serial numbers. In the event of a theft, however, the identifying mark left by the Trace Mark provides an indelible link to the recovery of your valuables. “

Best to ya,
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi

> On Mar 18, 2016, at 9:12 AM, ckinzer@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> I was looking for something with color, such as black, like a builders plate, with just the lettering being bright.
>
> Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer
>
> Sent from Windows Mail
>
> From: corlissbs
>
>
> Contact one of the etching manufacturers as they can do small etched brass ( or other metals )
> with a name etched into the brass. Maybe Plano or Details West. There are others.
>
> Dave Audley
>
>
> On Friday, March 18, 2016 12:26 AM, "ckinzer@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Does anyone know of anyone who can make very small builders plates like we see in HO. (My application is a little different as I need very small plates for unobtrusive identification on the bottom of rolling stock.)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25254	From: Ed Weldon	Date: 3/18/2016
Subject: Re: Looking for custom builders plate, nameplate, source

Chuck - I'd love to know how anyone would be able to make something like
this in HO scale. Possibly photography onto some kind of manageable
print paper? I have a rare Pacific Car and Foundry serial no. plate
that is 1-3/4" x 5". That would be .020 x .058 in HO or a bit less than
double that in O scale. I'm not certain whether it came off a railroad
car or some other product they made.
Do you have actual images to work with? I can try to scan or photograph
the one I have and share it with the group.
Ed Weldon

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25255	From: chfengr.elkhornforge	Date: 3/18/2016
Subject: Re: Looking for custom builders plate, nameplate, source

I guess I misunderstood what Chuck was looking for. I think for ID's on rolling stock the best approach is simply working with size reduction and printing on various paper stocks until you get something readable like Mike suggested. You really want a DIY approach rather than ordering custom printing work from someone else. Sounds to me that if you have access to a high quality laser printer and search around for the right material to print on it'll be a slam dunk.
Some years ago I printed a black line HO scale image of a small locomotive side elevation drawing on transparency film and it came quite crisp and usable. That was done on an inkjet printer. That method may not be sufficiently durable in the face of adhesives or coatings you may use on your application.
Ed Weldon

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25256	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 3/18/2016
Subject: Re: Looking for custom builders plate, nameplate, source

B/W computer laser printers are always on sale somewhere near me between the office supply, electronics stores, and online like Amazon.for about $70.

They print well on thin plastic sheets and the printing is much more durable than the inkjets ink [dyes]

Maybe black lettering on white stock will work for this? Or use any office supply store laser-print colored label stock. Many of those printers are 1200 dpi, the minimum is 600 dpi. You can do some very small printing with that, or almost very small and still clearly readable.

A friend of mine used the smallest possible size to print with an Alps to scale label his HO scale Milwaukee Wi street corner winter sand boxes. One printing point [1/120”] lettering at 600 dpi. You need a magnifying lens to read them. But the very tiny 600 dpi printing is clearly readable by using a gothic style of font, [non-serif. plain face style font].

You can do the same with a larger size font and still small printing of text and framing with the common $70-$90 computer laser printer.

Best to ya,

Mike Bauers

Milwaukee, Wi

On Mar 18, 2016, at 1:17 PM, 23.weldon wrote:

I guess I misunderstood what Chuck was looking for. I think for ID's on rolling stock the best approach is simply working with size reduction and printing on various paper stocks until you get something readable like Mike suggested. You really want a DIY approach rather than ordering custom printing work from someone else. Sounds to me that if you have access to a high quality laser printer and search around for the right material to print on it'll be a slam dunk.
Some years ago I printed a black line HO scale image of a small locomotive side elevation drawing on transparency film and it came quite crisp and usable. That was done on an inkjet printer. That method may not be sufficiently durable in the face of adhesives or coatings you may use on your application.
Ed Weldon

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25257	From: chfengr.elkhornforge	Date: 3/18/2016
Subject: Re: Looking for custom builders plate, nameplate, source

RE: laser printers
Neat, Mike!! I'm not surprised that you are on top of this stuff.
Ed

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25258	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 3/18/2016
Subject: Re: Looking for custom builders plate, nameplate, source

Thanks Ed,

Actually I window shopped laser printers and their costs to use some time ago. I bought a $70 laser printer because I could buy generic $25 replacement carts for it rated at 6,000 - 8,000 pages and the inkjets just were a pain to constantly buy new ink for.

So most of my household printing is done on a B/W laser printer and I now buy $15 6-8,000 page cartridges for it.

If nothing else, they don’t fade away like the inkjet prints will do.

I like the Brother line of B/W laser printers with the available generic low priced replacement drums and toner carts, and them being both wifi, network and USB connected I even got a $19, five reloads toner refill kit I’ve yet to use.

Best to ya,

Mike Bauers

Milwaukee, Wi

On Mar 18, 2016, at 1:53 PM, 23.weldon@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

RE: laser printers
Neat, Mike!! I'm not surprised that you are on top of this stuff.
Ed

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25259	From: denverrails	Date: 3/18/2016
Subject: Penn Line E-6 parts

I have acquired a HO Penn Line E-6 which, while in excellent condition, is missing the running boards. I note from the instructions that these seem to be brass stampings. It is also missing the bell. Does any on the group have a source for these parts as I want to restore it to original condition.

Thanks!!

Wally

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25260	From: Bob Macklin	Date: 3/18/2016
Subject: Re: Penn Line E-6 parts

Bowser has the E-6 running boards in stock!

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: dim01521@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, March 18, 2016 3:02 PM

Subject: [vintageHO] Penn Line E-6 parts

I have acquired a HO Penn Line E-6 which, while in excellent condition, is missing the running boards. I note from the instructions that these seem to be brass stampings. It is also missing the bell. Does any on the group have a source for these parts as I want to restore it to original condition.

Thanks!!

Wally

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25261	From: Fred Hultberg	Date: 3/19/2016
Subject: Re: Small Brass Nameplate

I can do that but it might be cost-prohibitive. You would need the artwork in either CAD(such as AutoCAD) or CorelDraw, from which I can have the negatives made, then the etching.

Lasercut may be the best alternative. I know someone, if he's still doing that kind of work.

Fred Hultberg(resident etching wizard, Fotocut)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25262	From: denverrails	Date: 3/27/2016
Subject: Parts for an old Roundhouse locomotive kit

I was recently given an old Roundhouse steam engine kit, but a number of parts are missing. While some I can replace the critical parts that I am missing are the side rods and the valve gear. It is missing most of the detail parts. Some of these I can replace, however, if you have any and would be willing to part with them. Please let me know.

Thanks!

Wally

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25263	From: Bob Macklin	Date: 3/27/2016
Subject: Re: Parts for an old Roundhouse locomotive kit

What kit is it?

Probably the only you will find what you need it do buy a donor on eBay.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: dim01521@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2016 11:30 AM

Subject: [vintageHO] Parts for an old Roundhouse locomotive kit

I was recently given an old Roundhouse steam engine kit, but a number of parts are missing. While some I can replace the critical parts that I am missing are the side rods and the valve gear. It is missing most of the detail parts. Some of these I can replace, however, if you have any and would be willing to part with them. Please let me know.

Thanks!

Wally

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25264	From: Jim Ruef	Date: 3/27/2016
Subject: Re: Parts for an old Roundhouse locomotive kit

Which engine is it? I might have some parts, -------------------------------------------- On Sun, 3/27/16, dim01521@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote: Subject: [vintageHO] Parts for an old Roundhouse locomotive kit To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, March 27, 2016, 1:30 PM I was recently given an old Roundhouse steam engine kit, but a number of parts are missing. While some I can replace the critical parts that I am missing are the side rods and the valve gear. It is missing most of the detail parts. Some of these I can replace, however, if you have any and would be willing to part with them. Please let me know. Thanks! Wally

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25265	From: denverrails	Date: 3/29/2016
Subject: Re: Parts for an old Roundhouse locomotive kit

It is a 2-8-0-consolidation kit number 460 I decorated. It really is a Southern Pacific prototype as it has a Vanderbilt tender and shows the among the details a number board as the SP use. I am missing part 710-077-0104 and the entire pilot truck. The other missing parts. I can make up with brass detail parts, which will of course improve its appearance.

I would certainly appreciate any parts that you would have and be willing to sell.

Thanks!

Wally

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25266	From: luvprr2003	Date: 3/29/2016
Subject: Re: Parts for an old Roundhouse locomotive kit

You could go to Bowser's site and check their HO detail parts. They still stock a whole lot of steam parts--many of which might suit your needs.

Art W.

In a message dated 3/29/2016 5:32:47 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

It is a 2-8-0-consolidation kit number 460 I decorated. It really is a Southern Pacific prototype as it has a Vanderbilt tender and shows the among the details a number board as the SP use. I am missing part 710-077-0104 and the entire pilot truck. The other missing parts. I can make up with brass detail parts, which will of course improve its appearance.

I would certainly appreciate any parts that you would have and be willing to sell.

Thanks!

Wally

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25267	From: Bob Macklin	Date: 3/29/2016
Subject: Re: Parts for an old Roundhouse locomotive kit

Those are the Cal-Scale parts. You can get them from Bowser or Walthers.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: luvprr@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2016 2:36 PM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Parts for an old Roundhouse locomotive kit

You could go to Bowser's site and check their HO detail parts. They still stock a whole lot of steam parts--many of which might suit your needs.

Art W.

In a message dated 3/29/2016 5:32:47 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

It is a 2-8-0-consolidation kit number 460 I decorated. It really is a Southern Pacific prototype as it has a Vanderbilt tender and shows the among the details a number board as the SP use. I am missing part 710-077-0104 and the entire pilot truck. The other missing parts. I can make up with brass detail parts, which will of course improve its appearance.

I would certainly appreciate any parts that you would have and be willing to sell.

Thanks!

Wally

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25268	From: luvprr2003	Date: 3/29/2016
Subject: Re: Parts for an old Roundhouse locomotive kit

And many pertain to other roads beside SP.

Art

In a message dated 3/29/2016 5:43:43 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Those are the Cal-Scale parts. You can get them from Bowser or Walthers.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: luvprr@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2016 2:36 PM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Parts for an old Roundhouse locomotive kit

You could go to Bowser's site and check their HO detail parts. They still stock a whole lot of steam parts--many of which might suit your needs.

Art W.

In a message dated 3/29/2016 5:32:47 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

It is a 2-8-0-consolidation kit number 460 I decorated. It really is a Southern Pacific prototype as it has a Vanderbilt tender and shows the among the details a number board as the SP use. I am missing part 710-077-0104 and the entire pilot truck. The other missing parts. I can make up with brass detail parts, which will of course improve its appearance.

I would certainly appreciate any parts that you would have and be willing to sell.

Thanks!

Wally

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25269	From: luvprr2003	Date: 3/29/2016
Subject: Re: Parts for an old Roundhouse locomotive kit

I meant to say other than PRR

Art

In a message dated 3/29/2016 5:44:59 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

And many pertain to other roads beside SP.

Art

In a message dated 3/29/2016 5:43:43 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Those are the Cal-Scale parts. You can get them from Bowser or Walthers.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: luvprr@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2016 2:36 PM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Parts for an old Roundhouse locomotive kit

You could go to Bowser's site and check their HO detail parts. They still stock a whole lot of steam parts--many of which might suit your needs.

Art W.

In a message dated 3/29/2016 5:32:47 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

It is a 2-8-0-consolidation kit number 460 I decorated. It really is a Southern Pacific prototype as it has a Vanderbilt tender and shows the among the details a number board as the SP use. I am missing part 710-077-0104 and the entire pilot truck. The other missing parts. I can make up with brass detail parts, which will of course improve its appearance.

I would certainly appreciate any parts that you would have and be willing to sell.

Thanks!

Wally

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25270	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 3/31/2016
Subject: boxcar load

Here’s something different to model….

The load in this boxcar…

http://nyx.uky.edu/dips/xt7sf7664q86/data/12/345_0003a_p/345_0003a/345_0003a.jpg

Best to ya,
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25271	From: Anspach Denny	Date: 3/31/2016
Subject: Walthers/Taylor Milwaukee Baltic 4-6-4

Tp my knowledge this was probably the very first HO locomotive kit produced in this country (1935) I know that Geo Stock may have produced some PRR K4 kits earlier, but I have yet been aware of evidence that they were ever produced or sold at the earlier date.

In any case, what an amazing kit this had to be: frame and pilot, steam chests, lead and trailing truck all brass or bronze sand castings. Applied details minimal with larger ones also castings, and the smaller ones rudimentary fabrications. Piping is oversize and mostly nickeled wire. The bodies were soldered brass fabrications. The kit came in I believe five parts, which the modeler purchased as ir was afforded. Dimensionally and proportionally, this model was very accurate for its prototype (which not long before kit model production had pulled a five car scheduled train from Chicago to Milwaukee with a top speed reached of about 112 mph). The fact now and the fact then was this was designed and built as a careful and demanding *scale* model way before its time.

Frank Taylor (‘Taylor-Built) developed the kit but sold it to Bill Walthers to market. In the December 1935 Model Craftsman, Taylor wrote out the entire set of instructions. The engine kits were produced by Walthers at least through 1940, and may be 1941 (Does someone else know?). Taylor left Walthers to go out on his own and formed Globe, and then moved on to be Editor of Model Railroader (or v.v.?)

I have one of these Baltic models, neatly soldered and what paint is left on it is probably stove paint. Mine has a DC-71 motor (an obvious replacement), delicate spindly zamac-centered drivers (all with the same counter weights) and a separated pilot, the pilot removed in an ill-advised move for replacement decades ago. Almost everything else is there, excluding headlight and bell.

In overall appearance, in real time it stands up extremely well against modern era models of the same locomotive from PFM and PSC. What is surprising (and pleasing) is how very well it runs, smoothly and quietly, with minimal amperage draw either in slip or stall modes. The motor probably is very well balanced, judging with how very well the locomotive just crawls, when asked to do so. Unlike so many other early locomotives that stub their toes (and about everything else) attempting to get around modern track work, this locomotive glides right through complicated code 70 track work without a click or stumble. This says a lot about Walthers’ wheel standards of the time.

My goal is to finish the locomotive as it originally was intended. I will keep the motor. Reattaching the pilot is a challenge, but I will figure it out. I probably will also convert it to DCC in a manner that leaves no tracks should the next owner desire to remove it.

Denny

Denny S. Anspach, MD
Sacramento, CA 95864

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25272	From: luvprr2003	Date: 4/1/2016
Subject: HO track spikes

Looking for 6 HO spikes for special application.

Art W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25273	From: maryinvt2	Date: 4/2/2016
Subject: How to Fix Broken Axles Gears on Vintage Bachmann Locos

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kkm9SlxoN_A

Looks like a good idea to me.

Richard in Vermont

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25274	From: maryinvt2	Date: 4/2/2016
Subject: More on Fixing Cracked Axle Gears

http://tycoforums.com/tyco/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=15592

This is neat stuff if you want to fix your old Bachmann 2-8-0 with the pancake motor. These old locos very often have cracked axle gears (here's the way to fix them) and you can re-motor it at the same time, take a look.

Richard in Vermont

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25275	From: oklacnw	Date: 4/3/2016
Subject: Old AHM RS-2

Attachments :

001-25275.jpg

A while back there was some discussion of the AHM RS-2 model: here is what I did with mine

it is the one motor version & in 1972 I removed plastic handrails & replaced with Kemtron stanchions, filled in the holes left from removing them, added details and painted to the as delivered in 1948 version. Had never entered a contest before, but at wifes urging entered it in a club I had just joined on our retirement from the USAF in 1978. Was pleasantly surprised to take 1st place, diesels.

Al E.

@@attachment@@

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25276	From: John Hagen	Date: 4/3/2016
Subject: Re: Old AHM RS-2 [1 Attachment]

As well you should. Nice job, Al.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2016 7:47 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vintageHO] Old AHM RS-2 [1 Attachment]

[Attachment(s) from oklacnw@... [vintageHO] included below]

A while back there was some discussion of the AHM RS-2 model: here is what I did with mine

Al E.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25277	From: maryinvt2	Date: 4/3/2016
Subject: Re: Old AHM RS-2

That RS2 is a beauty! How does she run? I am trying to find an all wheel drive RS2 for not much money to mate with a Central Vermont shell saved off an AHM loco.
.Richard in Vermont

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25278	From: leetrains	Date: 4/12/2016
Subject: Bowser vintage items fire sale

Bowser has just sent out an email sale flyer with many one of a kind vintage items.
Things such as noted below. There are lots of parts, side rods details and more. Thought it would be of interest. If you didn't get their email or can't find their web page let me know and I will forward to you what I received.
Lee
:

Original Arbour Models HO Mold Making Pattern Sets May or may not
have all relevant parts and patterns

HO Arbour Models Original Sierra mold making patterns

HO Arbour Models Original 4-4-0 Sylvainia Central patterns

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25279	From: Lee	Date: 4/12/2016
Subject: Fw: Bowser Fire Sale HO N & O Scale

Here is the emailed newsletter for the Bowser sales notice. Figured it was easier to send out to all this way. With luck it will go through okay.

Lee

Yuma, AZ

----------------------------------------------------

NOS Discontinued items First Come First Serve

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bowser News Letter

FIRE SALE

Sale Terms

Dealers and Public Orders Welcome
Payment Due When Ordering

Lots of Discontinued items being offered at Net Only Sale Pricing

All Sales Final no Returns

These items are New Old Stock items found in our ware house.

Items may have Shelf worn packaging but items are new in package.

Items sold "As Is"
No warranties expressed or implied.

Limited Quantities Available
All items are discontinued when sold out.
No hold orders or back orders

Orders By

1-800-327-5126

570-368-2379
Fax 570-368-5046
Email sales@...

These items are not offered on line.

Part No.

Description

SALE

One of a Kind

Original Arbour Models HO Mold Making Pattern Sets May or may not
have all relevant parts and patterns
2-229
HO Arbour Models Original Sierra mold making patterns $250.00
2-230
HO Arbour Models Original 4-4-0 Sylvainia Central patterns $250.00

Bowser HO Steam Engine items

1-1
16th Edition Repair Manual - No color flyer - $10.00

Die Cast Bodies and Boilers

1-220
LOW SIDE TENDER BODY $15.00
1-250 LONG HAUL TENDER BODY - P-250 $15.00
1-710 PRR E-6 BOILER $15.00
1-711 PRR H-9 BOILER $15.00
1-712 BOILER G-5 $15.00
1-1284 FLOOR IRR $5.00
1-1285 HO FLOOR BRILL $5.00
1-1286 HO FLOOR JEWETT $5.00
1-2153 BOILER_ CASEY JONES $15.00
1-2200 K-11 BOILER $15.00
1-2303 CYLINDERS K-11 $10.00
1-2330 COAL LOAD HIGH SIDE TENDER $1.99
1-2331 COAL LOAD LONG HAUL TENDER 233-1 $2.00
1-2529
32' TENDER BODY $10.00
1-2530 32' TENDER UNDERFRAME $5.00
1-310 TENDER FRAME-HI OR LO SIDE TNDR- $5.96
1-311 TENDER FLOOR 13_000 GAL TENDER $10.58
1-7012 PRR T-1 TENDER BODY $15.00
1-70020 USRA BOILER $10.00
1-70101 PRR M1 BOILER $15.00
1-70151 M1A BOILER $15.00
1-70180 N-2 BOILER $15.00
1-70220 DOCKSIDE BODY $5.00
1-70250 A-5 BOILER $10.00
1-70265 SLOPE BACK TENDER BODY $7.50
1-70271 L-1 BOILER - ZINC $12.00
1-70280 BOILER - USRA LITE PACIFIC $15.00
1-70296 USRA 32' TENDER BODY $10.00
1-70350 BOILER USRA LITE MIKE $15.00
1-70400 B-6 BOILER $10.00
1-71000
K4 Boiler Drilled $15.00
1-71006
Low Side Tender Body $5.00
1-71007
L1 Boiler drilled $10.00
1-71900
Tender Body -Hi-side w/load dog house ladder and hatch unpainted $15.00
1-71902
Tender Body -Hi-side with Coal Load painted black $9.00
1-71903 Tender Floor -Hi-side with truck screws $5.00
1-71905
Tender Body - 32ft w/ Load Ladder and Floor $12.50
2-207
HO FM Baby Trainmaster Dummy Frame w/ Athearn Trucks No Gear $3.00
2-208
HO Die Cast Brill Body $5.00
2-209
HO Die Cast Brill Body w/ Dummy Chassis $5.00
2-210
HO Die Cast PCC Body $5.00
2-211
HO Die Cast LVT Body $5.00
2-212
HO Die Cast IRR Dummy Chassis $5.00
2-213
HO Die Cast E3/4/6 Body A Unit $15.00
2-214
HO Die Cast E7 / 9 Body A Unit $15.00
2-215
HO Die Cast E6 / 7 Body B Unit $15.00
2-216
HO Die Cast F3 A/B Set Bodies Only $25.00
2-217
HO Die Cast Box Cab Diesel Body $15.00
2-218
HO Die Cast SW 1500 Body $15.00
2-219
HO Die Cast 4-4-0 Boiler for Tyco Chassis $15.00
2-220
HO T1 Boiler T7 Tender Body and Tender Floor Last Version $45.00
2-226
HO Dock Side Chassis old Style for DC-77 $5.00
2-227
HO Dock Side Chassis New Style for Can Motor $5.00
2-228
HO Dock Side Body various road names $3.00
13-2
FTA BODY-ATHERN PROTO-POWER HOBBYTN $8.00

HO Trucks

1-320 PRR Sprung Tender Trucks with leaf spring Old Style $5.00
1-323 SPRING Assembly FOR 320 TENDER TRUCK $1.32
1-2984 PAIR 70T FREIGHT TRUCKS ATHEARN $7.50
1-2986 PAIR 70T TRUCKS 32' TENDER $7.50
1-2988 HO NYC TENDER TRUCKS - Kit (pair) $7.50
1-2989 ANDREW TENDER TRUCKS -KIT (pair) $7.50
1-2990 USRA TENDER TRUCK (PAIR) $7.50
1-35107 BUCKEYE TENDER TRUCK KIT - SP-1 $7.50

HO Bowser Steam Parts Kits

1-7005 COAL BOARD - T-7 $1.66
1-8000 PRR DECAL FOR LONG TENDER PK/2 $3.00
1-8001 T-1 DECAL $4.00
1-8130 CYLINDER BLOCK_ E-6 $10.00
1-8164 CYLINDER BLOCK - H-9 - H-864 $10.00
1-70030 CYLINDER USRA MOUNTAIN $10.00
1-70165 CYLINDER SADDLE M1A $7.94
1-70168 CYLINDER M1A $10.00
1-70223 CYLINDERS_DOCKSIDE $3.00
1-70283 HO ENGINEER - PEWTER $1.00
1-72000 E-6 Assembled Chassi No Motor - AS IS $20.00
1-81130 CYLINDER BLOCK_ K-4 $10.00
1-81131 CYLINDER_ L-1 & I-1 $10.00
1-100201 SIDE ROD KIT - K-11 $14.61
1-100202 WORM MOUNT KIT - K-11 $5.00
1-100204 PONY TRUCK KIT - K-11 $7.00
1-100206 CASTINGS KIT_ K-11 $7.00
1-100207 TRAILING TRUCK KIT_ K-11 $7.00
1-100209 TENDER PARTS KIT K-11 $4.00
1-100215 SPARE RIVET KIT_ K-11 $2.50
1-100251 SIDE ROD KIT $10.00
1-100253 MISCELLANEOUS KIT $5.00
1-100255 VALVE GEAR KIT $10.00
1-100259 TENDER PARTS KIT $5.00
1-100302 WORM MOUNT KIT ARC-1 $10.00
1-100304 LEAD TRUCK KIT ARC-1 $5.00
1-100306 CASTINGS KIT ARC-1 $3.00
1-100309 STEAM PIPE KIT ARC-1 $3.00
1-100310 BELL KIT_ CHALLENGER $3.00
1-100314 PILOT ASSEMBLY KIT_ CHALLENGER $5.00
1-100316 POP VALVE KIT CHALLENGER $3.00
1-100317 WHISTLE_ CHALLENGER $2.00
1-100318 ONE-PIECE SIDE RODS_ CHALL (4) $5.00
1-100322 CROSSHEAD GUIDE SUPPORT KIT $10.00
1-100323 DRAWBAR KIT FOR CHALLENGER & BIG BOY $2.50
1-100351 BIG BOY SIDE ROD KIT $15.00
1-100353 BIG BOY MISCELLANEOUS KIT $5.00
1-100356 BIG BOY CASTINGS KIT $5.00
1-100359 BIG BOY STEAM PIPE KIT $5.00
1-100364 BIG BOY PILOT ASSEMBLY KIT $5.00
1-100401 SIDE ROD KIT_USRA $7.00
1-100406 CASTINGS KIT_USRA $8.00
1-100407 TRAILING TRUCK KIT_USRA $7.00
1-100409 BELL KIT MOUNTAIN $2.00
1-100411 PILOT KIT USRA $2.00
1-100431 SIDE ROD KIT PRR M1 & M1A $12.00
1-100433 MISCELLANEOUS KIT PRR M1 $5.00
1-100434 LEAD TRUCK KIT_PRR M1 & M1A $5.00
1-100439 WALKS KIT_ PRR M1 $12.00
1-100441 TENDER PARTS KIT_ PRR M1 $2.00
1-100453 MISCELLANEOUS KIT_ PRR M1 $5.00
1-100456 CASTING KIT_ PRR M1A $15.00
1-100459 CASTING & WALK KIT_ PRR M1A $9.00
1-100461 LONG HAUL TENDER PARTS KIT $10.00
1-100476 CASTING KIT -NORTHERN DOMES ETC $15.00
1-100477 CASTING KIT NORTHERN - WALKS ETC $15.00
1-100478 TRAILING TRUCK KIT NORTHERN $6.00
1-100479 PILOT KIT NORTHERN $5.00
1-100506 CASTINGS KIT_ K-4 $2.00
1-100571 SIDE ROD KIT A-5 $12.00
1-100573 MISCELLANEOUS KIT A-5 $3.00
1-100577 SUBKIT-CAN MOTOR W/HARDWARE A-5 $15.00
1-100606 CASTINGS KIT_ E-6 $8.00
1-100651 SIDE ROD KIT_ G-5 $8.00
1-100656 CASTING KIT_ G-5 $6.00
1-100661 CAB BACK PLATE G-5 $2.00
1-100663 ASSEMBLED PIPING G-5 $8.00
1-100717 SMALL PARTS FOR I-1 $13.00
1-100731 SIDE ROD KIT 2-10-2 $8.00
1-100733 MISCELLANEOUS KIT 2-10-2 $2.00
1-100736 CASTING KIT 2-10-2 $15.00
1-100739 CASTING KIT 2-10-2 $10.00
1-100773 B-6 MISC KIT $9.00
1-100774 B-6 PARTS BAG $15.00
1-100804 LEAD TRUCK KIT_ L-1 $2.00
1-100805 VALVE GEAR KIT_ L-1 $8.00
1-100806 CASTINGS KIT_ L-1 $12.00
1-100831 SIDE ROD KIT - USRA LT MIKE $12.00
1-100833 MISC KIT - USRA LT MIKE $6.00
1-100834 LEAD TRUCK KIT USRA LT MIKE $5.00
1-100835 VALVE GEAR KIT USRA LT MIKE $7.00
1-100837 TRAILING TRUCK KIT USRA LITE MIKE $9.00
1-100839 PARTS KIT USRA LITE MIKE- with pewter and brass parts $15.00
1-100903 MISCELLANEOUS KIT_ H-9 $4.00
1-100904 LEAD TRUCK KIT_ H-9 $5.00
1-100906 CASTINGS KIT_ H-9 - K9006 $6.00
1-100926 SIDE ROD KIT - OLD LADY $7.00
1-100928 MISC. KIT FOR OLD LADY $6.00
1-100929 LEAD TRUCK KIT FOR OLD LADY $2.00
1-101007 TRAILING TRUCK KIT - T-1 - K10007 $7.00
1-101011 BACK PLATE T-1 $2.00
1-101014 T-7 PARTS FOR T-1 KIT ONLY $5.00
1-101101 SIDE ROD KIT CASEY JONES $7.00
1-101103 MISC KIT CASEY JONES $3.00
1-101104 LEAD TRUCK KIT CASEY JONES $5.00
1-500205 ASSEMBLED K-11 VALVE GEAR $10.00
1-500305 Assembled Valve Gear Challenger $15.00
1-500355 Assembled Valve Gear Big Boy $15.00
1-500930 OLD LADY ASSEMBLED VALVE GEAR $10.00
1-501105 CASEY JONES ASSEMBLED VALVE GEAR $10.00

Bowser HO Rolling Stock Items

1-2984 PAIR 70T FREIGHT TRUCKS ATHEARN $7.50
1-2986 PAIR 70T TRUCKS_ 32' TENDER $7.50
1-74051
PRR CABOOSE SMOKE STACK BRASS $2.00
1-74052
PRR CABOOSE WALK BRASS $4.00
1-74054
N5C CABOOSE 2 BRASS BRAKE WHEELS. $2.00
1-74060
LIGHT KIT FOR N-5 & N-5C $7.50
1-75301
HO X-31 40' RR BOXCAR PRR ASSEMBLED $6.50
1-75321 HO X-31 40' RR BOXCAR PRR ASSEMBLED 12 DIFFERENT #'S $75.00
2-151
BIG TEN ILLINOIS $1.00
2-152
BIG TEN INDIANA $1.00
2-156
BIG TEN MINNESOTA $1.00
2-157
BIG TEN NORTHWESTERN $1.00
2-161
BIG TEN WISCONSIN $1.00

Misc Electrical Components

1-77 DC77 MOTOR $5.00
2-200
LED Warm White replacement for original Stewart LED PK 50 $5.00
2-201
Circuit Board Plug 2 Wire Female PK 10 $2.00
2-202
Micro LED Surface Mount PK 20 $2.50
2-203 Micro Electric Switch PK20 $5.00
2-204
Motor 12V Japan .625 x .750 x .8125 in - .625 Shaft $2.00
2-205
Kemtron Motor 12v 1.375 x 1.250 x .9375 in - .50 Shaft $2.00
2-206
DC Can Motor 12V 1.125 x 1.750 - .090 x .500 Shaft $2.00

Bowser / Varney HO

(Message over 64 KB, truncated)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25280	From: Keith Douglass	Date: 4/13/2016
Subject: Re: Fw: Bowser Fire Sale HO N & O Scale

The Sylvania Central loco was a 4-6-0, not a 4-4-0

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25281	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 4/14/2016
Subject: Re: Bowser Fire Sale HO N & O Scale

Thank you for posting this…..

I was finally able to get a slew of long wanted Aerotrain shells and some parts for some trains and custom railcars.

I thought they were long gone and the woman that answered the phone told me that they are recently accidentally discovered by them. They thought they were sold out ages ago.

Looks like I’ll finally have replacements for the missing headlights and windshields I miss-placed from the order I got several years ago, and be able to guilt-free build that single car Aerotrain ‘doodlebug' I saw in a Kalmbach book I bought when I first got into the hobby. Back in the days when the Varney Aerotrain was long out of production and if you were lucky, you found an old one at the swaps. If you weren’t lucky, you went without one for a very long time.

Soon, I’ll be able to create more than a couple of a dreamed of set of North Shore Aerotrains in Silver-Liner scheme, as the Demo sets that EMD provided the new owners of the temporarily closed down Milwaukee Electric system and disconnected the electric power from the system for the years it was up for sale.

So, of course, the Aerotrain sets have to have a trolley pole to activate the overhead wire signal circuits. Diesel powered, but still needing overhead wire signal and block trips on the newly acquired S.E. Wisconsin trackage.

Now I need at least 5 Athearn SW’s or five sets of their power trucks for the drives.

And a slew of Alclad stainless and suitably bright red paints……..

After years, the -PLAN- comes together !

Thanks Lee !!

Best to ya,

Mike Bauers

Milwaukee, Wi

On Apr 12, 2016, at 11:38 PM, Lee leetrainswrote:

Here is the emailed newsletter for the Bowser sales notice. Figured it was easier to send out to all this way. With luck it will go through okay.

Lee
Yuma, AZ

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25282	From: Lee	Date: 4/15/2016
Subject: Re: Digest Number 3672

glad to be of service!!

Lee

From: "vintageHO@yahoogroups.com" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, April 15, 2016 1:34 AM
Subject: [vintageHO] Digest Number 3672

Vintage HO Operators

Vintage HO Operators Group

1 Message

Digest #3672

1a

Re: Bowser Fire Sale HO N & O Scale by "Mike Bauers" mwbauers

Message

1a

Re: Bowser Fire Sale HO N & O Scale

Thu Apr 14, 2016 8:30 am (PDT) . Posted by:

"Mike Bauers" mwbauers

Thank you for posting this…..

I was finally able to get a slew of long wanted Aerotrain shells and some parts for some trains and custom railcars.

I thought they were long gone and the woman that answered the phone told me that they are recently accidentally discovered by them. They thought they were sold out ages ago.

Looks like I’ll finally have replacements for the missing headlights and windshields I miss-placed from the order I got several years ago, and be able to guilt-free build that single car Aerotrain ‘doodlebug' I saw in a Kalmbach book I bought when I first got into the hobby. Back in the days when the Varney Aerotrain was long out of production and if you were lucky, you found an old one at the swaps. If you weren’t lucky, you went without one for a very long time.

Soon, I’ll be able to create more than a couple of a dreamed of set of North Shore Aerotrains in Silver-Liner scheme, as the Demo sets that EMD provided the new owners of the temporarily closed down Milwaukee Electric system and disconnected the electric power from the system for the years it was up for sale.

So, of course, the Aerotrain sets have to have a trolley pole to activate the overhead wire signal circuits. Diesel powered, but still needing overhead wire signal and block trips on the newly acquired S.E. Wisconsin trackage.

Now I need at least 5 Athearn SW’s or five sets of their power trucks for the drives.

And a slew of Alclad stainless and suitably bright red paints……..

After years, the -PLAN- comes together !

Thanks Lee !!

Best to ya,
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi

> On Apr 12, 2016, at 11:38 PM, Lee leetrainswrote:
>
>
>
> Here is the emailed newsletter for the Bowser sales notice. Figured it was easier to send out to all this way. With luck it will go through okay.
>
> Lee
> Yuma, AZ

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Group: vintageHO	Message: 25283	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 4/16/2016
Subject: New Project

Well,

I got in on theBowser fire sale with some Aerotrain items. Ordered Thursday and the Fed-Ex box arrived today.

I’ve got a bunch of building ahead of me.

I finally got that missing bag of windshields and headlight plate replaced….. and while I was at it……..

I foresee a lot of seam puttying and Alclad-2 stainless steel painting ahead.

Best to ya,

Mike Bauers

Milwaukee, Wi

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25284	From: John Hagen	Date: 4/17/2016
Subject: Re: New Project [2 Attachments]

Attachments :

First photo looks like you puked up something pink………… oh, wait …………….

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Saturday, April 16, 2016 11:10 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vintageHO] New Project [2 Attachments]

[Attachment(s) from Mike Bauers included below]

Well,

I got in on theBowser fire sale with some Aerotrain items. Ordered Thursday and the Fed-Ex box arrived today.

I’ve got a bunch of building ahead of me.

I finally got that missing bag of windshields and headlight plate replaced….. and while I was at it……..

I foresee a lot of seam puttying and Alclad-2 stainless steel painting ahead.

Best to ya,

Mike Bauers

Milwaukee, Wi

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25285	From: trainliker	Date: 4/17/2016
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] New Project

Attachments :

image004.jpg

image002.jpg

That’s a lot more than General Motors ever made.

Possible to make the world’s longest HO Aerotrain with those.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Windows Mail

From: corlissbs@... [vintageHO]
Sent: ‎Sunday‎, ‎April‎ ‎17‎, ‎2016 ‎9‎:‎35‎ ‎AM
To: corlissbs@... [vintageHO]

First photo looks like you puked up something pink………… oh, wait …………….

John Hagen

[Attachment(s) from Mike Bauers included below]

Well,

I got in on theBowser fire sale with some Aerotrain items. Ordered Thursday and the Fed-Ex box arrived today.

I’ve got a bunch of building ahead of me.

I finally got that missing bag of windshields and headlight plate replaced….. and while I was at it……..

I foresee a lot of seam puttying and Alclad-2 stainless steel painting ahead.

Best to ya,

Mike Bauers

Milwaukee, Wi

@@attachment@@

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25286	From: John Hagen	Date: 4/17/2016
Subject: Re: New Project [2 Attachments]

Hey, there’s an idea, Mike.

You could make an up-dated, push-pull Aerotrain. It’d look good with amber beacons and ditch lights a-flashing.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2016 11:40 AM
To: corlissbs@... [vintageHO]
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] New Project [2 Attachments]

[Attachment(s) from ckinzer@... included below]

That’s a lot more than General Motors ever made.

Possible to make the world’s longest HO Aerotrain with those.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Windows Mail

From: corlissbs@... [vintageHO]
Sent: ‎Sunday‎, ‎April‎ ‎17‎, ‎2016 ‎9‎:‎35‎ ‎AM
To: corlissbs@... [vintageHO]

First photo looks like you puked up something pink………… oh, wait …………….

John Hagen

[Attachment(s) from Mike Bauers included below]

Well,

I got in on theBowser fire sale with some Aerotrain items. Ordered Thursday and the Fed-Ex box arrived today.

I’ve got a bunch of building ahead of me.

I finally got that missing bag of windshields and headlight plate replaced….. and while I was at it……..

I foresee a lot of seam puttying and Alclad-2 stainless steel painting ahead.

Best to ya,

Mike Bauers

Milwaukee, Wi

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25287	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 4/17/2016
Subject: Re: New Project

I can picture that......

And to further update a bit more, use a turbine sound system as well.

I do have a few toy turbine pulse jet engine sound boards.

I just a minutes ago ordered a few of the iPhone 4s speaker-sound port assemblies after reading an email suggesting them for a steamer install. They are supposed to have great bass output. Since they are only a couple of bucks, I've got four coming to me.

I'm going to be glad I got those toy sound planes a while back.

Mike Bauers

Sent from my iPhone

On Apr 17, 2016, at 4:25 PM, "'John Hagen' sprinthag@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Hey, there’s an idea, Mike.
You could make an up-dated, push-pull Aerotrain. It’d look good with amber beacons and ditch lights a-flashing.
John Hagen

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25288	From: Russ Shiel	Date: 4/28/2016
Subject: inactivity or off the air?

Cooeee? Is there anybody out there? I've had nothing from vintageHO for aeons...or at least a couple of weeks! Is the website still active?

Cheers, Russ in Adelaide

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25289	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 4/28/2016
Subject: Re: inactivity or off the air?

Russ,

I wasn't keeping track (no pun intended), but I guess you're right. The last message I see is on April 15 or so, on Bowser's Fire Sale, then the post on Old AHM RS2 on April 3. Before that, Art W. posted asking for a few HO spikes. Did you ever get your spikes, Art? if not, I have a box of Varney spikes -- got to be thousands, and could send you a handful if I can locate them.

There should be no lack of material for discussions on this group as we haven't even dented the info on all of the early manufacturers from back then. I guess no one has any questions at this time, which would explain this slow period. All groups have their ups and downs in activity. It's only been 13 days since the last message here.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 4/28/2016 7:28:06 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Cooeee? Is there anybody out there? I've had nothing from vintageHO for aeons...or at least a couple of weeks! Is the website still active?

Cheers, Russ in Adelaide

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25290	From: luvprr2003	Date: 4/28/2016
Subject: Re: inactivity or off the air?

Ray,

Thanks for remembering the spikes, but that project was completed a while ago with fewer spikes than originally intended. But wow--thousands of Varney spikes? Those were the days of real model raillroading I guess. Kinda brings back to me somehow the old and distantly related question too of what makes a model just kit bashed or a truly scratch-built one where everything is/was made from basic materials. Used to annoy me no end that some would claim to have built a model from "scratch" when using parts from various other models. I suppose in the end that it depends on one's definition. I think that was the final decision made long ago.

Art W.

In a message dated 4/28/2016 8:36:17 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Russ,

I wasn't keeping track (no pun intended), but I guess you're right. The last message I see is on April 15 or so, on Bowser's Fire Sale, then the post on Old AHM RS2 on April 3. Before that, Art W. posted asking for a few HO spikes. Did you ever get your spikes, Art? if not, I have a box of Varney spikes -- got to be thousands, and could send you a handful if I can locate them.

There should be no lack of material for discussions on this group as we haven't even dented the info on all of the early manufacturers from back then. I guess no one has any questions at this time, which would explain this slow period. All groups have their ups and downs in activity. It's only been 13 days since the last message here.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 4/28/2016 7:28:06 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Cooeee? Is there anybody out there? I've had nothing from vintageHO for aeons...or at least a couple of weeks! Is the website still active?

Cheers, Russ in Adelaide

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25291	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 4/28/2016
Subject: Re: inactivity or off the air?

I suppose the easy out is to flood the group with the vintage stuff each of us got from swaps, eBay, and other sources over the last few months.

Most of us hang back and post when we've finished a vintage project or got a hold of something rare or unusual.

I suspect we hit a spell when not much is ready to be talked about.

Maybe it's like the odd projects I've got rolling?

For example.... I slowly, but as swiftly as possible, gathered prime examples of Red Ball covered acid tanker and milk car kits and a few assorted wrappers for the cars. The goal is to replicate the wrappers and the cars to have a near unit-train of them to operate at a local large train layout. Since the existing kits as well as the existing builds of the kits are as rare as hens teeth, it's a drawn out process of hunting down the goods and then compensating for the improbability of even finding enough kits in ones lifetime to get more than a couple of them over a year or more of hunting.

Finally I have very good examples of the Skunk Works and the Bordens cars as well as a very few wrappers. And the scans of the wrappers are correcting well in the computer, fixing wrinkles and discoloration of the existing originals as well as color enhancing the scans.

Next its sessions of test printing and final printing to determined settings along with making several of the cars with a mix of strip-wood, RTV cast parts and some vac-formed parts since that upside down butter dish body is just not something that is stock in the hobby as far as being an available stock shape of any kind.

It's debatable as to if replicated vintage model kits are vintage modeling. But the end result is going to be a nice unit train of mixed label vintage model freight cars.

As I suggested, we all have projects of vintage models cooking away that aren't quite ready to show.

These lulls in the posts will happen as a result.

Mike Bauers

Sent from my iPhone

On Apr 28, 2016, at 6:27 AM, "Russ Shiel rshiel01@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Cooeee? Is there anybody out there? I've had nothing from vintageHO for aeons...or at least a couple of weeks! Is the website still active?
Cheers, Russ in Adelaide

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25292	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 4/28/2016
Subject: The Bowser fire sale

So did anyone get the Bowser-Cary Pittsburg 4-4-0 castings that Bowser was fire sale-ing?

Anyone get some interesting goodies from the sale?

I previously posted on my scoring a lot of Aerotrain shells and parts from the sale. I limited my buying to that.

Mike Bauers
Sent from my iPhone

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25293	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 4/28/2016
Subject: Maker passes on

Did everyone notice that Jordan, the long time maker of fine and low priced vintage HO autos and some other more vintage wagons passed away and his products have vanished from the market?

Check Walthers and you’ll see that they no longer have any stock.

The word is that his Will asks that the family destroy his production dies upon his death.

Best to ya,
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi

Best to ya,
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25294	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 4/28/2016
Subject: Re: inactivity or off the air?

Art,

I obtained the box of Varney spikes from an estate sale of H0 stuff that was being sold off from a late modeler I had know about 40 years ago. He hand-laid all his rail and still had a good amount of spikes left over. Thought that at some time in the future I might try my hand at hand-laying track, but I found using Atlas flex track a lot easier < g > The sale was open to the public -- much like a yard sale or garage sale -- and there were a good number of other modelers and railfans there buying stuff too. I picked up lots of miscellaneous parts by Varney, Mantua and other manufacturers, and got a pair of Varney cast F-3's also. .

As for scratch building, I agree that such a model should be built from basic materials if it's considered built from scratch. The question becomes though, how much of any other hobby-related material can be used before we must describe it as kitbashed. I'm sure that no scratch builder makes their own couplers or trucks, so a model of this design is at least partially Kadee and/or Central Valley. Unless we cast the ladders for box car sides -- as one example (with which we'd have to make a mold) -- we'd most likely buy ladders as those produced by Selley, or Kemtron, or Cal-Scale, or whoever made them.

Ray

In a message dated 4/28/2016 9:58:45 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Ray,

Thanks for remembering the spikes, but that project was completed a while ago with fewer spikes than originally intended. But wow--thousands of Varney spikes? Those were the days of real model raillroading I guess. Kinda brings back to me somehow the old and distantly related question too of what makes a model just kit bashed or a truly scratch-built one where everything is/was made from basic materials. Used to annoy me no end that some would claim to have built a model from "scratch" when using parts from various other models. I suppose in the end that it depends on one's definition. I think that was the final decision made long ago.

Art W.

In a message dated 4/28/2016 8:36:17 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Russ,

I wasn't keeping track (no pun intended), but I guess you're right. The last message I see is on April 15 or so, on Bowser's Fire Sale, then the post on Old AHM RS2 on April 3. Before that, Art W. posted asking for a few HO spikes. Did you ever get your spikes, Art? if not, I have a box of Varney spikes -- got to be thousands, and could send you a handful if I can locate them.

There should be no lack of material for discussions on this group as we haven't even dented the info on all of the early manufacturers from back then. I guess no one has any questions at this time, which would explain this slow period. All groups have their ups and downs in activity. It's only been 13 days since the last message here.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 4/28/2016 7:28:06 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Cooeee? Is there anybody out there? I've had nothing from vintageHO for aeons...or at least a couple of weeks! Is the website still active?

Cheers, Russ in Adelaide

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25295	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 4/28/2016
Subject: Re: inactivity or off the air?

We're still here. It's just that since Yahoo decided to make the groups virtually useless, there hasn't been a lot of activity

Don

Don Dellmann
Contact me at:
don.dellmann@...
See my toys at:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

On 4/28/2016 6:27 AM, Russ Shiel rshiel01@... [vintageHO] wrote:

Cooeee? Is there anybody out there? I've had nothing from vintageHO for aeons...or at least a couple of weeks! Is the website still active?

Cheers, Russ in Adelaide

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25296	From: Jay Wanczyk	Date: 4/28/2016
Subject: Re: The Bowser fire sale

Mike B, I saw the photographs of your purchase of a great quantity of Bowser Aero-train parts, and gave a good-natured chuckle when I saw your post state that you had "limited" your buying! Glad to see that someone who appreciates them, and can do something constructive with them, bought them! Jay

From: Mike Bauers mwbauers55@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>;
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>;
Subject: [vintageHO] The Bowser fire sale
Sent: Thu, Apr 28, 2016 2:11:00 PM

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25297	From: corlissbs	Date: 4/28/2016
Subject: Re: Maker passes on

That's sad. Many people could get enjoyment from his legacy. He must have been a bitter man.

brad Smith

Franklin, WI

In a message dated 4/28/2016 11:39:52 A.M. Central Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Did everyone notice that Jordan, the long time maker of fine and low priced vintage HO autos and some other more vintage wagons passed away and his products have vanished from the market?

Check Walthers and you’ll see that they no longer have any stock.

The word is that his Will asks that the family destroy his production dies upon his death.

Best to ya,
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi

Best to ya,
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25298	From: Jay Wanczyk	Date: 4/28/2016
Subject: Re: Maker passes on

Hi Mike B. and All, I'm sorry to hear about Jordan's founder passing away, and also that he requested the dies be buried with him, so to speak. There was an interesting history of the product line, and why for a while, the products were brought out under the name of Vintage Vehicles.

About seven or eight years ago, maybe more, I found one of the difficult to find Jordan Jeep panel delivery truck kits, but one of the sides was badly warped and midshapen. I also wanted to purchase some of its Jeep style wheels for another project, so I wrote to them, asking if he had any spares around, though it then about 30 years since that kit was available. I was surprised to learn that the companies found was still at it.

Lo and behold about two weeks later I received a package with what appeared to be newly cast sprues containing the sides (with much uncharacteristic flash) and also extra Jeep style wheels, along with a note, "no charge" and that these were "absolutely the last of the Jeep parts."

It is also my understanding that the dies were engraved into aluminum blocks, and that used a hand powered plastic injection process to cast the parts.

It will take a while to locate and unpack them, as I thought several years ago I was going to have to move, but will try to do so this weekend and also scan his interesting note.

W. Jay W.

Ps. Even though lately I have been just reading our group posts, I have been following the group only on my yahoo mailbox – and thought perhaps I had inadvertently broken the link. Glad everyone was just "on vacation" and will begin some posts of interesting recent finds.

From: Mike Bauers mwbauers55@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>;
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>;
Subject: [vintageHO] Maker passes on
Sent: Thu, Apr 28, 2016 4:39:45 PM

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25299	From: Rick Jones	Date: 4/28/2016
Subject: Re: Maker passes on

On 4/28/2016 11:39 AM, Mike Bauers mwbauers55@... [vintageHO] wrote:

> Did everyone notice that Jordan, the long time maker of fine and low priced vintage HO autos and some other more vintage wagons passed away and his products have vanished from the market?
>
> Check Walthers and you’ll see that they no longer have any stock.
>
> The word is that his Will asks that the family destroy his production dies upon his death.

Valley Model Trains still has a few of those kits left if anybody is
interested.

--

Rick Jones

Why do we drive on parkways and park on driveways?

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25300	From: Gary Woodard	Date: 4/28/2016
Subject: Re: Maker passes on

Well Mike,

Walthers usually doesn't have anything in stock anyway, its just in the catalog, as for the producer wanting to destroy several million $s worth of molds, provided he wasn't the tool and die maker himself, that isn't usually going to happen, I know, some of his molds date back to the 1960's, (I can remember building those kits when I was a kid), however, the costs alone of making one set of dies would make one think twice before doing so, on the other hand, model railroad manufacturers do tend to be a strange lot!

Gary W

Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!

From: "Mike Bauers mwbauers55@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2016 12:39 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] Maker passes on

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25301	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 4/28/2016
Subject: Re: Maker passes on

Not what I heard. I heard that the dies were to go to family members.

Now, what the means, we really don't know. Yes, he did not want them sold, but never heard he wanted them destroyed. That would be just mean.

Regards, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

The word is that his Will asks that the family destroy his production dies upon his death.

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Group: vintageHO	Message: 25302	From: louis niederlander	Date: 4/28/2016
Subject: Re: Maker passes on

The gentleman we are all speaking of was Harvey Jackson. In my teens I had the opportunity to talk with him and he did tell me about his aluminum tooling and hand operation. This was back when was in Canton Ohio. Sorry to hear of his passing.

Louis N

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Jay Wanczyk the_plainsman@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2016 7:09 PM
To: yahoogroups
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Maker passes on

From: Mike Bauers mwbauers55@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>;
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>;
Subject: [vintageHO] Maker passes on
Sent: Thu, Apr 28, 2016 4:39:45 PM

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25303	From: Jay Wanczyk	Date: 4/28/2016
Subject: Re: Maker passes on

Brad S, I agree, the few sentences of our correspondence back then led me to the same conclusion - even while he appreciated how well received and popular his models work. In my humble opinion, his heirs were in no way legally bound and could consider his legacy over perhaps an end-of-life shortsighted, or perhaps chronic illness induced, poor decision. W. Jay W.

From: corlissbs@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>;
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>;
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Maker passes on
Sent: Thu, Apr 28, 2016 8:12:38 PM

That's sad. Many people could get enjoyment from his legacy. He must have been a bitter man.

brad Smith

Franklin, WI

In a message dated 4/28/2016 11:39:52 A.M. Central Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Did everyone notice that Jordan, the long time maker of fine and low priced vintage HO autos and some other more vintage wagons passed away and his products have vanished from the market?

Check Walthers and you’ll see that they no longer have any stock.

The word is that his Will asks that the family destroy his production dies upon his death.

Best to ya,
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi

Best to ya,
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25304	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 4/28/2016
Subject: Re: Maker passes on

Brad,

That’s just unconfirmed rumor. We don’t know for certain at this point if the dies are to be destroyed.

IF the relatives destroy the dies, then I’ll tag the relatives as foolishly bitter…….. or at least fools that will be bitter with regret about it later.

It is highly likely that some of the tooling to make the tooling is a computerized mill with the creation files to make those dies. Or there may be some sort of master patterns used to pantograph-mill the dies.

It’s quite possible that the masters of those dies in whatever form they may be, can be reused and new molds made.

Best to ya,
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi

> On Apr 28, 2016, at 3:12 PM, corlissbs wrote:
>
>
>
> That's sad. Many people could get enjoyment from his legacy. He must have been a bitter man.
>
> brad Smith
> Franklin, WI
>
> In a message dated 4/28/2016 11:39:52 A.M. Central Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:
> Did everyone notice that Jordan, the long time maker of fine and low priced vintage HO autos and some other more vintage wagons passed away and his products have vanished from the market?
>
> Check Walthers and you’ll see that they no longer have any stock.
>
> The word is that his Will asks that the family destroy his production dies upon his death.
>
> Best to ya,
> Mike Bauers
> Milwaukee, Wi

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25305	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 4/28/2016
Subject: Re: Maker passes on

You just can never accurately predict what the relatives will do.

Some folks are just plain fools….. Lord knows I’ve got a couple on both sides of my family.

Best to ya,

Mike Bauers

Milwaukee, Wi

On Apr 28, 2016, at 3:37 PM, Jay Wanczyk wrote:

Brad S, I agree, the few sentences of our correspondence back then led me to the same conclusion - even while he appreciated how well received and popular his models work. In my humble opinion, his heirs were in no way legally bound and could consider his legacy over perhaps an end-of-life shortsighted, or perhaps chronic illness induced, poor decision. W. Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25306	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 4/28/2016
Subject: Re: The Bowser fire sale

Thanks Jay,

I got a further bit of sorta luck the last week or so as some Hobbytown chassis for the cars and a dummy engine went through eBay. I didn’t get them. But the pictures are nice ideas on how to make the frames for the cars They look like a smart use of square beams for the frames.

They used a lead alloy that I think can be well substituted with RTV urethane casting of a similar DIY frame and some metal sheet for flooring and some weight.

Saving those images is almost like having a solid plan for the parts.

Someone suggested making an Aerotrain ‘B’ power unit for longer trains……… That just could happen.

Best to ya,

Mike Bauers

Milwaukee, Wi

On Apr 28, 2016, at 2:12 PM, Jay Wanczyk wrote:

Mike B, I saw the photographs of your purchase of a great quantity of Bowser Aero-train parts, and gave a good-natured chuckle when I saw your post state that you had "limited" your buying! Glad to see that someone who appreciates them, and can do something constructive with them, bought them! Jay

From: Mike Bauers
So did anyone get the Bowser-Cary Pittsburg 4-4-0 castings that Bowser was fire sale-ing?

Anyone get some interesting goodies from the sale?

I previously posted on my scoring a lot of Aerotrain shells and parts from the sale. I limited my buying to that.

Mike Bauers
Sent from my iPhone

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25307	From: Riverboy	Date: 4/29/2016
Subject: Re: The Bowser fire sale

I'm angry at myself. I had leestrains forward me a copy of the sale "flyer" but I somehow deleted it. I was wanting to see if they still had some things, but I don't remember exactly what it was. It happens. Maybe it means I didn't need them. LOL!

Tod C Dwyer (Ohio)

On Friday, April 29, 2016 2:03 AM, "Mike Bauers mwbauers55@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Thanks Jay,

They used a lead alloy that I think can be well substituted with RTV urethane casting of a similar DIY frame and some metal sheet for flooring and some weight.

Saving those images is almost like having a solid plan for the parts.

Someone suggested making an Aerotrain ‘B’ power unit for longer trains……… That just could happen.

Best to ya,

Mike Bauers

Milwaukee, Wi

On Apr 28, 2016, at 2:12 PM, Jay Wanczyk wrote:

Mike B, I saw the photographs of your purchase of a great quantity of Bowser Aero-train parts, and gave a good-natured chuckle when I saw your post state that you had "limited" your buying! Glad to see that someone who appreciates them, and can do something constructive with them, bought them! Jay

From: Mike Bauers
So did anyone get the Bowser-Cary Pittsburg 4-4-0 castings that Bowser was fire sale-ing?

Anyone get some interesting goodies from the sale?

I previously posted on my scoring a lot of Aerotrain shells and parts from the sale. I limited my buying to that.

Mike Bauers
Sent from my iPhone

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25308	From: Model RailRoad Warehouse	Date: 4/29/2016
Subject: Re: Red Ball Borden Milk Tank Cars

The last Red Ball Borden tanker kits s (1980s) had injection molded styrene shells. A small number of complete kits is currently available (white. with fins) with Cannonball Car Shops brand. Some of the tank shells (slightly imperfect paint/print, some just unpainted) are available in the YARDSALE at mrrwarehouse.com. They include the red and silver paint schemes.

When we launched injection molded parts and kits (using Red Ball molds) in the early 1980s the wood and die cast metal Red Ball was still receiving great market acceptance. I created the Cannonball brand to avoid confusion between plastic items and wood/metal items. It was amusing at times. We received notes from folks warning us our Red Ball was being "pirated" in plastic but that the metal was so much better in detail than the imitators. We also received notes telling us how much better the detail was in Cannonball. In fact both were being made in the sale molds! There were "pirates" at the time, ripping off many kit & part makers with metal copies made in rubber molds. Making rip offs in injection molded styrene is not so easy or cheap. New metal molds for injection molding aren't made cheaply. It IS too common to made rip off resin models and they are on the market. In one case a Red Ball kit was ripped off before it could come to market by an unethical advertising rep who had the pre production model for photos. I have strong feelings about those who copy the creative investments and research of others in rip off models.

LaBelle Woodworking currently has the rights for use of Red Ball carside art.

Merle Rice

Model RR Warehouse (formerly the manufacturer of Wabash Valley Lines- Red Ball )

Home of the Troop Cars, GE Steeple Cabs. New NOW--Mann's Creek Log Buggies and Hoppers in HO and O are on our website, www.mrrwarehouse.com ! Check it out today ! .

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25309	From: nvrr49	Date: 4/29/2016
Subject: Re: inactivity or off the air?

Yeah, most Model Railroad activity has moved to FaceBook, blogs and YouTube. I am going to have to get a better camera for my computer.

Kent in KC
nvrr49.blogspot.com

---In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, <don.dellmann@...> wrote :

We're still here. It's just that since Yahoo decided to make the groups virtually useless, there hasn't been a lot of activity

Don

Don Dellmann
Contact me at:
don.dellmann@...
See my toys at:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25310	From: Richard Dipping	Date: 4/29/2016
Subject: Re: Maker passes on

Like the greedy, foolish heirs of Paulson Spence.

-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Bauers mwbauers55@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Fri, Apr 29, 2016 12:16 am
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Maker passes on

You just can never accurately predict what the relatives will do.

Some folks are just plain fools….. Lord knows I’ve got a couple on both sides of my family.

Best to ya,

Mike Bauers

Milwaukee, Wi

On Apr 28, 2016, at 3:37 PM, Jay Wanczyk wrote:

Brad S, I agree, the few sentences of our correspondence back then led me to the same conclusion - even while he appreciated how well received and popular his models work. In my humble opinion, his heirs were in no way legally bound and could consider his legacy over perhaps an end-of-life shortsighted, or perhaps chronic illness induced, poor decision. W. Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25311	From: rebendever	Date: 4/29/2016
Subject: Re: Maker passes on

Mike,

The instructions to the family heirs was that the business was NOT to be sold and nothing was stated about destruction of the tooling. This is just a rumor.

. Best Regards,

============== http://DrBens.com/ (WebBLOG) ================

Richard E. Bendever DEBEN LLC, 910 Millvale Place, Lawrenceville, GA 30044-6239 www.DEBENLLC.com | Doctor Ben's Scale Consortium | Scale Model Masterpieces | Thomas A. Yorke Ent. | Ph.: 770.666.8100 FAX: 770.979.5069

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25312	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 4/29/2016
Subject: Custom job in eBay

Found there, and left there due to the wild $149 asking price.

But I still think you guys will find it to be darned interesting.

The only thing about it that I can be sure of, is that it has a Hobbytown component drive.

If anyone is really interested in one, there are usable side views to make one for yourself.

It looks like it would be a fun one to operate. With ‘fun’ in quite a few different dimensions.

Perhaps the builder was influenced by the Aerotrains….. and maybe later bought one of the Varney versions that suddenly appeared on the market after he built….

This Thing ……

Lord knows why I looked at it while figuring out how to build a new one….. I see how it can be scaled from the EMD trucks used on it……

I think it needs a cab door on the side of the thing………. And 50’s style windshield outside shades

8^)

Seriously….. That thing would fly with one of the old Hi-F Athearn band drives in her.

Why oh Why am I tempted….. There are six Hi-F drives sitting just a few feet from me…..

That nose …… !!!

Best to ya,

Mike Bauers

Milwaukee, Wi

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25313	From: Valerie Smith	Date: 4/29/2016
Subject: Re: Maker passes on

Vintage Vehicles and Jordan were two different companies owned by two different Jackson brothers. Jordan Jackson took over the Jordan line after Harvey died. Vintage Vehicles was also used as a test bed for models, some of which were later incorporated into the Jordan line. The 26 Essex, steam shovel, crane and Mack AC railbus were four of them. I have one of the Essex in a plastic bag from the very first run of the cars. Also Vintage Vehicles produced two circus wagons for Walthers as part of their great circus train series. I also have those.

Like the Jeep parts mentioned previously, I was working on a Greyhound bus with Harvey Jackson, it got as far as drawing but never made it to die work, anyway, I asked him about the early Model Ts that he did. He sent me the parts to make up a lot of them. The interesting part was that the sides of the car were stamped metal and the seats were a type of plastic that was very hard to glue.

As far as the dies go, I would not be surprised to see them back in production with his brother doing them.

Larry Smith

On Friday, April 29, 2016 10:57 AM, "Richard Dipping richarddipping@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Like the greedy, foolish heirs of Paulson Spence.

You just can never accurately predict what the relatives will do.

Some folks are just plain fools….. Lord knows I’ve got a couple on both sides of my family.

Best to ya,

Mike Bauers

Milwaukee, Wi

On Apr 28, 2016, at 3:37 PM, Jay Wanczyk wrote:

Brad S, I agree, the few sentences of our correspondence back then led me to the same conclusion - even while he appreciated how well received and popular his models work. In my humble opinion, his heirs were in no way legally bound and could consider his legacy over perhaps an end-of-life shortsighted, or perhaps chronic illness induced, poor decision. W. Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25314	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 4/29/2016
Subject: Re: The Bowser fire sale

There were some nice things scattered in there.

A couple that caught my eye was a body set for engine and tender of the PRR T-1 and the Cary/Bowser Pittsburg boiler/cab for the Mantua 4-4-0.

Granted you would still have to come up with drives for them. It was good to see that some of that was still around.

I think there was a likely feeding frenzy on the motors they offered. Most were $1-$4, both the modern cans and the vintage [built like a tank] open frame types.

I could have… But I tried to be a good boy and restricted myself to a lifetime supply of Aerotrain projects.

Best to ya,

Mike Bauers

Milwaukee, Wi

On Apr 29, 2016, at 3:48 AM, Riverboy wrote:

I'm angry at myself. I had leestrains forward me a copy of the sale "flyer" but I somehow deleted it. I was wanting to see if they still had some things, but I don't remember exactly what it was. It happens. Maybe it means I didn't need them. LOL!

Tod C Dwyer (Ohio)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25315	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 4/29/2016
Subject: Re: Maker passes on

AH….

Thank you for that. What I heard was far less encouraging.

Hopefully the product line will somehow survive. Something creative can be arranged like a sizable donation to a charity with royalties to continue from further production of the line…….. and no resale of the line as part of the arrangement.

Best to ya,

Mike Bauers

Milwaukee, Wi

On Apr 29, 2016, at 9:20 AM, yahoo.wrote:

Mike,

The instructions to the family heirs was that the business was NOT to be sold and nothing was stated about destruction of the tooling. This is just a rumor.

. Best Regards,
Richard E. Bendever

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25316	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 4/29/2016
Subject: Re: Maker passes on

I do hope so….

Best to ya,

Mike Bauers

Milwaukee, Wi

On Apr 29, 2016, at 12:38 PM, Valerie Smith wrote:

As far as the dies go, I would not be surprised to see them back in production with his brother doing them.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25317	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 4/29/2016
Subject: Re: Red Ball Borden Milk Tank Cars

You don’t have to worry about me.

I’m doing this for my self and nothing will be beyond that.

I have plans to recreate the printed kit works in crisp lettering using the scans of the fuzzy originals as an example.

The cars will be updated by re-engineering some of the slab strip wood construction into more contemporary model car structural construction.

in essence, the very old kits I was able to find will be used as a type of plan to build my models.

Best to ya,

Mike Bauers

Milwaukee, Wi

On Apr 29, 2016, at 8:39 AM, Model RailRoad Warehouse mrrwarehouse@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

I have strong feelings about those who copy the creative investments and research of others in rip off models.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25318	From: anypaddler	Date: 4/30/2016
Subject: Re: Maker passes on

Richard Dipping wrote:

< Like the greedy, foolish heirs of Paulson Spence.

------------------------------

For those of a younger age: http://meridianspeedway.weebly.com/louisiana-eastern-story.html

Ralph V. Balfoort
Retired D&H and VRS

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25319	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 4/30/2016
Subject: Re: Maker passes on

That is quite the tale…..

Thanks for the link.

What a loss……..

Best to ya,

Mike Bauers

Milwaukee, Wi

On Apr 30, 2016, at 5:53 AM, Alpvalsys wrote:

Richard Dipping wrote:
< Like the greedy, foolish heirs of Paulson Spence.
------------------------------
For those of a younger age: http://meridianspeedway.weebly.com/louisiana-eastern-story.html

Ralph V. Balfoort
Retired D&H and VRS

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25320	From: william.murray@sbcglobal.net	Date: 5/2/2016
Subject: Hello I am a new member

Thought I would introduce myself. Bill is my name, I live in Chicago, I am 72 and a retired veteran. I have been in this hobby since 71, HO that is, I have 37 steamers, 24 diesels, 240 freight cars, 40 passenger cars and my layout is basically four 4x8 boards connected together. It is a crawl under, which my wife said I would regret, and she was right, but I am not starting over. Most of my freight cars are Athearn blue box kits, with some Roundhouse, Accurail, TM. Walthers and even a few Tycos and Bachmanns. Also 2 or 3 Varneys, and a half dozen or so from makers I know nothing about. My steamers are Rivarossi, Mantua, Bowser, Bachmann, Roundhouse, IHC and a few misc. Diesels are Athearn, Bachmann (old standard, new standard, plus and Spectrum), Model Power and AHM/Yugoslavia. I come from the era of DC, kit and even scratch building, Atlas track and MRC power packs. I very much emphasize operation over scenery. Someday I will let my wife in the room to pretty things up, with houses with white picket fences etc. But not yet. I am now trying to sort out some problems I am having with my turnouts and relays, so if this is in your line let me know. I am not very knowledgeable about membership protocol so forgive me if I am clumsy at first.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25321	From: Richard Carbo	Date: 5/2/2016
Subject: Re: Hello I am a new member

Welcome to the group Bill. Richard Carbo

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Monday, May 02, 2016 1:08 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vintageHO] Hello I am a new member

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25322	From: Donald R. Staton	Date: 5/2/2016
Subject: Re: Hello I am a new member

Good Morning Bill. Enter in and enjoy. Ask your questions. We all had to start somewhere and the people here will welcome you and try to help.

Happy railroading...

Don in VA

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

On 5/2/2016 9:23 AM, 'Richard Carbo' flyerguy3@... [vintageHO] wrote:

Welcome to the group Bill. Richard Carbo

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Monday, May 02, 2016 1:08 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vintageHO] Hello I am a new member

Thought I would introduce myself. Bill is my name, I live in Chicago, I am 72 and a retired veteran. I have been in this hobby since 71, HO that is, I have 37 steamers, 24 diesels, 240 freight cars, 40 passenger cars and my layout is basically four 4x8 boards connected together. It is a crawl under, which my wife said I would regret, and she was right, but I am not starting over. Most of my freight cars are Athearn blue box kits, with some Roundhouse, Accurail, TM. Walthers and even a few Tycos and Bachmanns. Also 2 or 3 Varneys, and a half dozen or so from makers I know nothing about. My steamers are Rivarossi, Mantua, Bowser, Bachmann, Roundhouse, IHC and a few misc. Diesels are Athearn, Bachmann (old standard, new standard, plus and Spectrum), Model Power and AHM/Yugoslavia. I come from the era of DC, kit and even scratch building, Atlas track and MRC power packs. I very much emphasize operation over scenery. Someday I will let my wife in the room to pretty things up, with houses with white picket fences etc. But not yet. I am now trying to sort out some problems I am having with my turnouts and relays, so if this is in your line let me know. I am not very knowledgeable about membership protocol so forgive me if I am clumsy at first.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25323	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 5/2/2016
Subject: Re: Hello I am a new member

Attachments :

Welcome Bill, what is the problem with the turnouts and relays? I have a few on my layout and had some issues that I was able to solve over the years.

Take care,
Chuck Higdon- check out my FEC layout at
https://picasaweb.google.com/102920461774912857361

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Monday, May 2, 2016 1:08 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vintageHO] Hello I am a new member

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25324	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 5/2/2016
Subject: something I see..

Some of us know of this fellow in Kenosha that casts and sells a lot of vintage vehicles through eBay. Don D. is using many of his works and his layout using them is featured in the fellows eBay listings.

I just saw this…..

http://www.ebay.com/itm/HO-SCALE-3D-PRINTED-SCRAP-TANKS/111978199160

The guy is now using a 3d printer of his own as well..

Things just keep moving forward in the vintage models realm. Maybe soon, many more of us will have a 3d printer of our own in use to make missing parts from those incomplete vintage RR models that we commonly find today?

Best to ya,
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25325	From: Roger Whiffin	Date: 5/2/2016
Subject: Re: Hello I am a new member

Hi William

What sort of problems are you having?

I know most of my local club members by the sort of shoes they wear as I am nearly always under someone's or club baseboard.

Can you send a plan of your track and indicate whether the switches are live or dead frog, where your feeds are etc.?

RogerW.

From: "william.murray@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, 2 May 2016, 6:07
Subject: [vintageHO] Hello I am a new member

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25326	From: William Murray	Date: 5/2/2016
Subject: Re: Hello I am a new member

OK I see some of the members here also belong to the cast iron loco group as well. I have 50 some relays connected to Atlas turnouts. Some have one button powering one turnout and one relay.Others have one button powering 2 turnouts and 3 relays. My problem is that some of these, and not always the bigger groupings, have trouble getting off and powering everybody correctly. I do have the most expensive CDU I could find, but it can't seem to correct the problem. I use heavy duty wire from control panel to every device. I am thinking some of my relays may not be suitable for work in the bigger circuits (they all test ok when tested alone) or that maybe I should try lighter wire at the very end, that is to the relays themselves. Anyway, ever have any experience like this ?? Thanks. BTW all my buttons, turnouts and relays are Atlas.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25327	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 5/2/2016
Subject: Re: Hello I am a new member

Attachments :

Hi Bill,

I had this problem in the past and more AMPs helps solve the issue. Definitely do not go to a lighter wire, as that can be part of the problem. Last month we ran a second 14GA common wire to the buttons and that solved the problem we had in one area. The lighter the wire the greater the resistance and less amps are delivered to the devices.

I run 14 GA bus line around the layout and tie all the commons to the one side and tap off for the buttons along the edge of my layout. I now have the buttons close to the turnouts because I use wireless control, so no big panel with the track diagram for switching tracks.

Take care,

Chuck

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Monday, May 2, 2016 2:03 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Hello I am a new member

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25328	From: Doug Harris	Date: 5/2/2016
Subject: Re: Hello I am a new member

On 2/05/2016 17:07, william.murray@... [vintageHO] wrote:

> Thought I would introduce myself. Bill is my name, I live in Chicago,
> I am 72 and a retired veteran. I have been in this hobby since 71, HO
> that is, I have 37 steamers, 24 diesels, 240 freight cars, 40
> passenger cars and my layout is basically four 4x8 boards connected
> together. It is a crawl under, which my wife said I would regret, and
> she was right, but I am not starting over.

Hi Bill, welcome to the group, from Noo Zeeland..

--
Cheers.

Doug Harris
Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25329	From: Roger Whiffin	Date: 5/3/2016
Subject: Re: Hello I am a new member

Hi William

General principles

Firstly I have no experience with Atlas turnouts, relays, or push-buttons, BUT have found numerous problems when trying to switch more than one thing at a time using big CDUs, it is sometimes better to use a number of cheaper smaller ones closer to the turnouts.

In particular when changing two or more turnouts at both ends of a very long passing loop where one end is close to the push button and the other some way off maybe half way round a long layout, and several times have had put in individual buttons for each end.

With CDUs, the mixture of short and long leads to the turnouts can appreciably alter the time constant of the two circuits, in very simplistic terms with the closer one "stealing" some of the current required for the one further away because that one would have higher losses due to longer lengths of wire and maybe multiple terminations (especially if fed from baseboard to baseboard).

Usually the thicker the wire the better - lower losses in the wire particularly on distant installations. Are your connections soldered, "old fashioned" heavy screw terminals, plug and socket, or something else?

One thing that I have had to do for one layout was use push-buttons to switch some Govt Surplus relays with high current contacts situated adjacent to a complex and rather distant sets of turnouts and CDU.

Hope this makes sense to you - if not will try and send you a diagram.

RogerW

From: "William Murray william.murray@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, 2 May 2016, 19:02
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Hello I am a new member

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25330	From: William Murray	Date: 5/3/2016
Subject: Re: Hello I am a new member

The reason I use so many relays...... every turnout needs a powered frog and a signal. Converging turnouts also need a track section in front of the points that is powered off when a turnout is set to turn. And when using 3 way signals on a double crossover another relay for each line for more signal work. I use AC for signals and track DC for all the other functions. Oh yes, when multiple converging turnouts are back to back we need relays wired in series to make sure the safety track is good for all turnouts. It can get complex.

On Monday, May 2, 2016 7:21 PM, "'Chuck Higdon' vze5crrw1@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Hi Bill,
I had this problem in the past and more AMPs helps solve the issue. Definitely do not go to a lighter wire, as that can be part of the problem. Last month we ran a second 14GA common wire to the buttons and that solved the problem we had in one area. The lighter the wire the greater the resistance and less amps are delivered to the devices.

I run 14 GA bus line around the layout and tie all the commons to the one side and tap off for the buttons along the edge of my layout. I now have the buttons close to the turnouts because I use wireless control, so no big panel with the track diagram for switching tracks.

Take care,
Chuck

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Monday, May 2, 2016 2:03 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Hello I am a new member

OK I see some of the members here also belong to the cast iron loco group as well. I have 50 some relays connected to Atlas turnouts. Some have one button powering one turnout and one relay.Others have one button powering 2 turnouts and 3 relays. My problem is that some of these, and not always the bigger groupings, have trouble getting off and powering everybody correctly. I do have the most expensive CDU I could find, but it can't seem to correct the problem. I use heavy duty wire from control panel to every device. I am thinking some of my relays may not be suitable for work in the bigger circuits (they all test ok when tested alone) or that maybe I should try lighter wire at the very end, that is to the relays themselves. Anyway, ever have any experience like this ?? Thanks. BTW all my buttons, turnouts and relays are Atlas.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25331	From: William Murray	Date: 5/3/2016
Subject: Re: Hello I am a new member

I tried something new today and it worked! On a turnout with 2 relays that wouldn't trip all 3 at the same time, I tried tapping off at the turnout motor hookup and using lighter wire, connected the 2 relays in series from this point. You know how the tiny little relay screws cannot really hold 2 thick wires, but 2 works good. I think by screwing too many thick wires around screws that can't really tighten down on them, I was not getting good enough conductivity. So far so good. Then I did a turnout with 3 relays, and it worked good. The ultimate test is a double crossover, where one button triggers 2 motors and 3 relays. I will save those for last.

On Monday, May 2, 2016 7:21 PM, "'Chuck Higdon' vze5crrw1@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Hi Bill,
I had this problem in the past and more AMPs helps solve the issue. Definitely do not go to a lighter wire, as that can be part of the problem. Last month we ran a second 14GA common wire to the buttons and that solved the problem we had in one area. The lighter the wire the greater the resistance and less amps are delivered to the devices.

I run 14 GA bus line around the layout and tie all the commons to the one side and tap off for the buttons along the edge of my layout. I now have the buttons close to the turnouts because I use wireless control, so no big panel with the track diagram for switching tracks.

Take care,
Chuck

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Monday, May 2, 2016 2:03 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Hello I am a new member

OK I see some of the members here also belong to the cast iron loco group as well. I have 50 some relays connected to Atlas turnouts. Some have one button powering one turnout and one relay.Others have one button powering 2 turnouts and 3 relays. My problem is that some of these, and not always the bigger groupings, have trouble getting off and powering everybody correctly. I do have the most expensive CDU I could find, but it can't seem to correct the problem. I use heavy duty wire from control panel to every device. I am thinking some of my relays may not be suitable for work in the bigger circuits (they all test ok when tested alone) or that maybe I should try lighter wire at the very end, that is to the relays themselves. Anyway, ever have any experience like this ?? Thanks. BTW all my buttons, turnouts and relays are Atlas.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25332	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 5/3/2016
Subject: Re: Hello I am a new member

Hi Bill,

Joining those who have already messaged you, I'd like to extend my "Welcome to the Group" greeting to you as one of this gathering of mostly "vintage" guys < g >. At 72, you'll fit right in here, even though we have a number of younger guys (I'm 76). I won't attempt to try to give you advice on complicated electrical problems as I see you're already receiving it. With you being a veteran, I would just like to thank you for your service to the country.

I would add here, that your 8' x 16' layout is a fairly decent size one. I'm assuming that as it's a "crawl under" design, that you have pop-up areas to be able to access places that can't be reached from the perimeter. Not as convenient as peninsula construction, but then each of us has to decide on the best way to construct our layout with the amount of trackwork we want, in the space we have available. Then too, since you have little scenery installed yet, this might be the time to raise it another 6" or so to make the "crawls" easier, especially if you can get a small bunch of guys helping to lift it more evenly.

Looks like you have a nice assortment of engines and rolling stock, many of which are considered as being "vintage" and some that aren't. A modeler has to decide for himself exactly what equipment works best for him (and his wallet). Certainly nothing wrong with MRC power packs as I'm sure many of us here use them, although at least a few use power sources such as (Marnold) Marn-O-Stat. While I believe IHC would be too new to qualify as vintage, and while Bachmann may not be vintage either, I believe earlier Train Miniature would well be considered within the vintage timeframe established here (which is still a bit vague sometimes). Some manufacturer' products here are considered vintage right up through the 1970's and some are cut off earlier. I'm still not sure exactly where many actually fall into, but I consider the earlier Bowser engines vintage myself, even while they're not Penn Line. Many were produced in the time-frame we'd consider "vintage," even though they're indistinguishable from the same models produced much later in the 1980's. For that matter, many are indistinguishable from their Penn Line predecessor. Varney fits right in with all the rest we value as vintage, as a prime example of this period.

As for those half a dozen or so models from makers you know nothing about, we have archives here for anyone to browse in trying to determine what their unknown models actually are -- which manufacturers they were made by, and when. If you're really determined to know what these mystery pieces are, just ask the group; they like nothing better that to solve such a challenge. Describe them as best you can -- even sending pics if you'd like -- and include the types of materials they're made of, etc., even the car side numbers where you can. No "protocol" to worry about; we're all here to help each other. You've fit right in already. Enjoy operating your trains, especially the vintage ones.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 5/2/2016 7:24:36 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Thought I would introduce myself. Bill is my name, I live in Chicago, I am 72 and a retired veteran. I have been in this hobby since 71, HO that is, I have 37 steamers, 24 diesels, 240 freight cars, 40 passenger cars and my layout is basically four 4x8 boards connected together. It is a crawl under, which my wife said I would regret, and she was right, but I am not starting over. Most of my freight cars are Athearn blue box kits, with some Roundhouse, Accurail, TM. Walthers and even a few Tycos and Bachmanns. Also 2 or 3 Varneys, and a half dozen or so from makers I know nothing about. My steamers are Rivarossi, Mantua, Bowser, Bachmann, Roundhouse, IHC and a few misc. Diesels are Athearn, Bachmann (old standard, new standard, plus and Spectrum), Model Power and AHM/Yugoslavia. I come from the era of DC, kit and even scratch building, Atlas track and MRC power packs. I very much emphasize operation over scenery. Someday I will let my wife in the room to pretty things up, with houses with white picket fences etc. But not yet. I am now trying to sort out some problems I am having with my turnouts and relays, so if this is in your line let me know. I am not very knowledgeable about membership protocol so forgive me if I am clumsy at first.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25333	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 5/3/2016
Subject: Re: Hello I am a new member

You guys -NEED- to use this stuff or the like on those screwed connections.…

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61rSQE5sM2L._SL1499_.jpg

http://www.amazon.com/CRC-05101-QD-Electronic-Cleaner/dp/B000CCMLD0

You’ll be amazed at how much better those connections will be from it. Wet a Q-tip with the stuff and wipe the screws and attached wire ends with that… even just wiping the assembled connection and letting it wick in makes a large improvement.

I speak from the perspective of using the like stuff since the middle 1970’s on all sorts of electrical connections. Crappy connections without, amazing connections with….

This can be found in all good hardware stores, auto supply, marine supply, aircraft supply, electronic supply, and you get the idea……. A more generic version that used to be commonly around is Tuner Cleaner.

Don’t overlook using it on all contact elements of the electrical path within your model locomotives and lit-model cars as well.

From my experience, it makes cheap copper and brass contacts perform like exotic gold-plated contacts…… for many months at the least.

Best to ya,
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi

> On May 2, 2016, at 11:02 PM, William Murray wrote:
>
>
>
> I tried something new today and it worked! On a turnout with 2 relays that wouldn't trip all 3 at the same time, I tried tapping off at the turnout motor hookup and using lighter wire, connected the 2 relays in series from this point. You know how the tiny little relay screws cannot really hold 2 thick wires, but 2 works good. I think by screwing too many thick wires around screws that can't really tighten down on them, I was not getting good enough conductivity. So far so good. Then I did a turnout with 3 relays, and it worked good. The ultimate test is a double crossover, where one button triggers 2 motors and 3 relays. I will save those for last.
>
>
> On Monday, May 2, 2016 7:21 PM, "'Chuck Higdon' wrote:
>
>
> Hi Bill,
> I had this problem in the past and more AMPs helps solve the issue. Definitely do not go to a lighter wire, as that can be part of the problem. Last month we ran a second 14GA common wire to the buttons and that solved the problem we had in one area. The lighter the wire the greater the resistance and less amps are delivered to the devices.
>
> I run 14 GA bus line around the layout and tie all the commons to the one side and tap off for the buttons along the edge of my layout. I now have the buttons close to the turnouts because I use wireless control, so no big panel with the track diagram for switching tracks.
>
> Take care,
> Chuck
>
>
>
> From: vintageH
>
>
> OK I see some of the members here also belong to the cast iron loco group as well. I have 50 some relays connected to Atlas turnouts. Some have one button powering one turnout and one relay.Others have one button powering 2 turnouts and 3 relays. My problem is that some of these, and not always the bigger groupings, have trouble getting off and powering everybody correctly. I do have the most expensive CDU I could find, but it can't seem to correct the problem. I use heavy duty wire from control panel to every device. I am thinking some of my relays may not be suitable for work in the bigger circuits (they all test ok when tested alone) or that maybe I should try lighter wire at the very end, that is to the relays themselves. Anyway, ever have any experience like this ?? Thanks. BTW all my buttons, turnouts and relays are Atlas.
>

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25334	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 5/3/2016
Subject: Re: Hello I am a new member

Hi Bill,

Like some folks already said, welcome to VintageHO. It sounds like you have been in the hobby for some time. Which explains some of the vintage technology you are using. I am sure glad there are folks to help you out with this stuff so you can keep it going and have fun with it.

I was part of an operations group where about 25 or 30 of us operated once a month on a "Vintage" layout. It even had a "Vintage" DCC system, Wangrow, which was absorbed by NCE and is compatible with it. It had a mix of switch machines, including some Tortoises. It also used a whole LOT of relays for signaling as well. Long story short, after about 30 or so years of use, many of these "Vintage" components were starting to fail over the past 10 years. Many relays and switch machines were no longer available for replacement and we jury rigged some to keep the layout operating, but it was a losing battle. This was a very large layout and at any given time there were about 10 engineers plus yard workers operating locomotives on 12 hour (fast clock) shifts. Anyway, the owner, as well as the layout were aging at the same time and we had to shut it down last October. The layout is being torn down now.

I learned many things on my own the hard way and several others from this layout.

I hope your relays and switch machines hold out better than my experience shows. Maybe they will, because the wear and tear is directly related to how much use the stuff gets.

I started out with Atlas switch machines at first about 30 years ago, but never did like them. They really did not work very well and they looked obvious on top of the layout next to the turnout. Then Atlas came out with the under the table switch machines and I bought several. These were even less reliable. I then went to Rix switch machines and found them full of headaches, but somewhat better than Atlas, if you used Rix Rax mounts. I then went to dual coil machines like NJ International, Kemtron, or Tenshodo. While not prefect, the worked pretty well and did have built in contacts for frog powering and indicating. Eventually, I found out about Tortoise Switch machines shortly after converting to DCC and thought I went to Heaven. Tortoise have two sets of built in contacts, use VERY little current and work all the time, every time. No need for relays and external contacts and no special circuitry and logic as in servos which some folks use. Yeah, I keep hearing about expense, BUT when you buy them by the dozen, they come out to about $13.75 each, but no need for any fancy relays or power supplies and boosters. A 1 amp 12 volt power supply will power 65 Tortoises.

I don't suggest at all to change out such a large amount of equipment you have now, but I am sure that going under the layout to repair this stuff will get old. But, you may wish to consider changing out the old stuff when it does fail to something more reliable. That is what I did. I still have some dual coil switch machines, but have replaced many others with Tortoises due to attrition.

Good luck and regards, Vic B.

Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of William Murray william.murray@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 3, 2016 12:08 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Hello I am a new member

On Monday, May 2, 2016 7:21 PM, "'Chuck Higdon' vze5crrw1@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Hi Bill,

I had this problem in the past and more AMPs helps solve the issue. Definitely do not go to a lighter wire, as that can be part of the problem. Last month we ran a second 14GA common wire to the buttons and that solved the problem we had in one area. The lighter the wire the greater the resistance and less amps are delivered to the devices.

I run 14 GA bus line around the layout and tie all the commons to the one side and tap off for the buttons along the edge of my layout. I now have the buttons close to the turnouts because I use wireless control, so no big panel with the track diagram for switching tracks.

Take care,

Chuck

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Monday, May 2, 2016 2:03 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Hello I am a new member

OK I see some of the members here also belong to the cast iron loco group as well. I have 50 some relays connected to Atlas turnouts. Some have one button powering one turnout and one relay.Others have one button powering 2 turnouts and 3 relays. My problem is that some of these, and not always the bigger groupings, have trouble getting off and powering everybody correctly. I do have the most expensive CDU I could find, but it can't seem to correct the problem. I use heavy duty wire from control panel to every device. I am thinking some of my relays may not be suitable for work in the bigger circuits (they all test ok when tested alone) or that maybe I should try lighter wire at the very end, that is to the relays themselves. Anyway, ever have any experience like this ?? Thanks. BTW all my buttons, turnouts and relays are Atlas.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25335	From: Jim Waterman	Date: 5/4/2016
Subject: When does a train become vintage?

Hey Ray and all,

In the car world, it's an antique at 25 years old. But it's still hard
to call a 1990 Chevy and antigue, let alone a classic. (Some will
disagree, but they still seem like modern cars).

When do we move the clock forward on what is vintage?

As an example, it seems like the early Atlas/Roco stuff would not
qualify but some was made in the late 70's. I can't seem to get it in my
mind that it is 'antique', even though it's over 35 years old at this
point. At what point is Athearn NOT vintage? After rubber band drive?
Some version of their drive train? A time cut off? When does Bowser
become modern - when they ran out of original Penn Line frames (and
switched to brass)?

Are any manufacturers off the list forever and for what reasons? If a
new manufacturer picked up older tooling and continued to produce, is it
vintage (Life Like for example, in various incarnations in the 60's and
70's).

Guys - any thoughts?

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25336	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 5/4/2016
Subject: Re: When does a train become vintage?

Hi Jim,

GREAT question, and one that I'm sure was generated at least partially in response to my remark to Bill's introduction when I wrote "I believe earlier Train Miniature would well be considered within the vintage time-frame we established here (which is still a bit vague sometimes)." Don (Dellmann) briefly outlined here a short while ago, what was to be considered "vintage," but even then a lot was left up in the air without being finalized/pin-pointed as to where a cut-off period would be. I do remember him including certain manufacturers as vintage, right up to 1970 or so -- or was it 1980?

I know what you mean about the automobile world and their threshold for a car to become an antique needing to be at least 25 years old (or more). Motor Vehicle Divisions in many (most? all?) states take this into consideration when a car approaches this age. One of my older cars, a 1993 Mercury Cougar, has been considered by my State (NJ) not to need to be presented for vehicle inspection any longer, as per a letter I received from the Agency several weeks ago with my registration renewal. This new auto registration will expire in May 2017, at which time this car will be 24 years old. At that time, I'll have the choice to renew its registration as is, or re-register it as an antique with "QQ" plates (tags). I don't consider this car any more of an antique than I do my 1949 Ford -- and I don't consider my '49 Ford an antique, but instead, a "Classic" car -- and the Mercury is more "modern" than anything else it could be categorized as. With this, I have to wonder how Sean considers his Mustang; antique or classic? In any case by this it can be seen that an automobile's age has little to do with the age of model trains.

I do believe that "vintage" as associated with model trains mainly refers to a certain time period and that it should be restricted primarily to that period, although it appears -- even from what Don stated -- that certain manufacturers may extend past the considered "vintage" time frame to slightly later years, as one set date for all does not appear to have been established. One large part of this period's cut-off date pertains to the particular craftsman construction style of the models produced falls under. By this, yes I would have to say that most (perhaps all?) manufacturers now off the vintage list would remain off the vintage list as "vintage" has nothing to do with increased age, as automobiles would. "Vintage" with H0 trains remains a certain time frame within the period that these models were produced. Additional years gone by has nothing to do with a model being "vintage" and will not change its more modern construction techniques.

The late ' 70's does not necessarily qualify as a general "vintage" cut off period, except as Don spelled out for us previously (and which I don't recall vividly enough to restate at this time). Again, I'm hoping he can clarify this further. While some Atlas/Roco stuff was made in the late ' 70's, I don't see this as being vintage for these models. With Lew English taking over Bill Bowser's "Bowser Manufacturing Co." in 1961, I still feel that it would remain to be considered as vintage at least up until 1970. Part of this consideration is due to Bowser replacement parts -- even for a 1970 kit -- having been manufactured during that previous decade. To extend the date any further though would just not add to it being vintage. That some Bowser kits contained Penn Line frames only adds to those kits' vintage status. I remember buying two Bowser cast metal boiler Mountain kits around 1977, each kit having a warped cast Penn Line frame. I bought two new Mountain frames from Bowser (Lew English) and was send two cast metal Penn Line frames (not brass frames), yet I don't consider my kits bought in 1977 "vintage."

As for Athearn, while the end of the Hi F drive might be considered as the limit for vintage here, I would extend it into the first generation of geared locomotives (through 1968), which would then take in the 1600 Series of operating (operable) door reefers and the other rolling stock that was made during this period (up through early/mid '60's). There's a marked difference between the operable door moulded plastic reefers and any later ones. I would not consider and Athearn engines produced in the 1970's -- such as the ALCo PA's I bought in 1975 -- to be vintage. Of course, this is only my take on when models cease to be considered vintage, but when I was buying new Athearn locos in 1975, I was also buying "VINTAGE" equipment dating back another 20 to 25 years, and earlier.

As for Life Like and their vintage classification, while those models produced by Sol Kramer would be considered as such, especially because of their age, their particular construction style alone does not necessarily catagorize them as vintage, nor should newer similar versions of Life Like models be considered as vintage only because of them being knock-offs. Ye Old Huff & Puff reproduced many earlier lines in the 1980's but they don't qualify as vintage. In some areas of manufacture, there's a thin line between what's actually vintage and what's still collectible. Walthers reproduced Silver Streak, Ulrich and other lines they bought out, starting in the early 1970's. Many of them even carry the original car side numbers of their predecessor manufacturers. Once built, it's hard to tell them apart from the original manufacturers; models, yet they are not vintage. Pacific HO is vintage, Ulrich is vintage. But not Walthers' reproductions of the same. This does not take away from them though; I have practically everything that Walthers made as reproductions of earlier manufacturers. While I have the original Ulrich line complete, I don't have all of the original Pacific HO/Silver Streak and am glad to have been able to fill in with Walthers kits. The construction methods of these kits are the same craftsman style with the same materials.

Just touching on Train Miniature for a few minutes, this line only started in 1968, yet I feel that they should be considered as vintage when referring to their first manufacturing in California. When they became Train Miniature of Illinois, even while they were similar, I don't seen them as being vintage at this late date, and it becomes a stretch even to consider them as such right up until the move to Illinois.

In general, we can all fall back on the early all-metal, wood & metal and wood models from pre-War up through early post-War and the subsequent decades as certainly being vintage without question. It's where the gray line of "newer" non-vintage starts that's still vague to a lot of members as it can vary with manufacturers.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 5/4/2016 6:50:26 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Hey Ray and all,

In the car world, it's an antique at 25 years old. But it's still hard
to call a 1990 Chevy and antigue, let alone a classic. (Some will
disagree, but they still seem like modern cars).

When do we move the clock forward on what is vintage?

As an example, it seems like the early Atlas/Roco stuff would not
qualify but some was made in the late 70's. I can't seem to get it in my
mind that it is 'antique', even though it's over 35 years old at this
point. At what point is Athearn NOT vintage? After rubber band drive?
Some version of their drive train? A time cut off? When does Bowser
become modern - when they ran out of original Penn Line frames (and
switched to brass)?

Are any manufacturers off the list forever and for what reasons? If a
new manufacturer picked up older tooling and continued to produce, is it
vintage (Life Like for example, in various incarnations in the 60's and
70's).

Guys - any thoughts?

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25337	From: William Murray	Date: 5/4/2016
Subject: Re: Hello I am a new member

Actually, what I have is two parralell 16x4 sections 30 inches apart joined on the ends by 2 1/2 x 2/12 boards, leaving an open center section, where I and my control section reside. Yes I know some of my stuff is too new to be vintage. Over the years I just bought what I could afford. Many of my locos are second hand, bought either over ebay, garage sales or train swap meets. When I started out I bought anything that looked good, only later after finding out how junky some of this stuff was did I become more discriminating. As I said, most of my concentration is in getting my trackwork to be a effective and error free as possible. I know absolutely no one who shares my interest, most of them considering me a doddering old fool who plays with toys !! So I really have no one to help me gain knowledge and skills, most of it being trial and error. Already I have found help from members of this group.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25338	From: trainliker	Date: 5/4/2016
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] When does a train become vintage?

I guess “vintage” is necessarily a relative term.

Today’s detailed injected molded electronics laden offerings may be vintage to a future Jetson family member. The notion of having to machine metal dies may become rather quaint.

Perhaps we need to think in terms of “ages”. Such as the “scratch age” that might arguably be the first.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Windows Mail

From: corlissbs@... [vintageHO]
Sent: ‎Wednesday‎, ‎May‎ ‎4‎, ‎2016 ‎9‎:‎12‎ ‎AM
To: corlissbs@... [vintageHO]

Hi Jim,

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 5/4/2016 6:50:26 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Hey Ray and all,

In the car world, it's an antique at 25 years old. But it's still hard
to call a 1990 Chevy and antigue, let alone a classic. (Some will
disagree, but they still seem like modern cars).

When do we move the clock forward on what is vintage?

As an example, it seems like the early Atlas/Roco stuff would not
qualify but some was made in the late 70's. I can't seem to get it in my
mind that it is 'antique', even though it's over 35 years old at this
point. At what point is Athearn NOT vintage? After rubber band drive?
Some version of their drive train? A time cut off? When does Bowser
become modern - when they ran out of original Penn Line frames (and
switched to brass)?

Are any manufacturers off the list forever and for what reasons? If a
new manufacturer picked up older tooling and continued to produce, is it
vintage (Life Like for example, in various incarnations in the 60's and
70's).

Guys - any thoughts?

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25339	From: trainliker	Date: 5/4/2016
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Hello I am a new member

I suspect many of us are a “doddering old fool who plays with toys.” Can you get a bumper sticker for that?

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Windows Mail

From: corlissbs@... [vintageHO]
Sent: ‎Tuesday‎, ‎May‎ ‎3‎, ‎2016 ‎10‎:‎09‎ ‎AM
To: corlissbs@... [vintageHO]

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25340	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 5/4/2016
Subject: Re: Hello I am a new member

Bill,

I had wondered if you had all four 4 x 8 sheets joined together when I first tried to picture it. I now see there's a 30" wide gap although I wouldn't have guessed that's where you stand to operate it from. As you describe it as a crawl under, I'm assuming that the two connecting end boards joining the two parallel 16' x 4' sections do not lift out.

As it seems to appear, that you could easily make at least one of the connecting end boards a lift out section, with wire connectors, I no longer see any need to raise the layout to increase the crawl space, when you wouldn't need to duck at all if you had the lift-out. Unless -- there's something I'm not foreseeing.

Many of us probably bought what was attractive to our eye rather than looking for quality, so you're not alone there. EBay is still good for occasional bargains if you know what you're looking at. Train swap meets used to be THE place to get at least some of what we were after. I see there's still some around but not like years ago, before eBay. Back then, there were often at least one and sometimes two per week (usually on a Sunday). Some of the larger ones were on for the whole weekend.

As you're finding out, the guys here are a great help when you have a problem. Many times, they've been there and done that.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 5/4/2016 12:45:20 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Actually, what I have is two parralell 16x4 sections 30 inches apart joined on the ends by 2 1/2 x 2/12 boards, leaving an open center section, where I and my control section reside. Yes I know some of my stuff is too new to be vintage. Over the years I just bought what I could afford. Many of my locos are second hand, bought either over ebay, garage sales or train swap meets. When I started out I bought anything that looked good, only later after finding out how junky some of this stuff was did I become more discriminating. As I said, most of my concentration is in getting my trackwork to be a effective and error free as possible. I know absolutely no one who shares my interest, most of them considering me a doddering old fool who play s with toys !! So I really have no one to help me gain knowledge and skills, most of it being trial and error. Already I have found help from members of this group.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25341	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 5/4/2016
Subject: Re: When does a train become vintage?

When I started the group, I considered the cut-off date to be about 1960. Since then it's evolved more into a "style" of modelling, rather than a hard and fast date.

The wood and metal kits, even some of the early plastic. Companies like Quality Craft and Ambroid made this type of kit into the 70's, Mainline, silver streak, LW, live on today in the form of "ye olde Huff 'n puff" (sp?). The availability of scratchbuilding supplies. Even the idea of "good" paint (NOT acrylics) and deals that you just can't get anymore.

What I'd rather not see is reproductions, unless it may be to fabricate a part to complete an otherwise "vintage" model (sorry Mike), major upgrades of locomotives (I turn a blind eye to remotering, but if you put DCC in it, don't tell me! or ANYTHING made in China

The real thing I was more concerned about was this was NOT to be a group about strictly collecting. The whole idea was that we RAN our models.

I don't know if this helps or not.

Don

Don Dellmann
Contact me at:
don.dellmann@...
See my toys at:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

On 5/4/2016 11:41 AM, ckinzer@... [vintageHO] wrote:

I guess “vintage” is necessarily a relative term.

Today’s detailed injected molded electronics laden offerings may be vintage to a future Jetson family member. The notion of having to machine metal dies may become rather quaint.

Perhaps we need to think in terms of “ages”. Such as the “scratch age” that might arguably be the first.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Windows Mail

From: corlissbs@... [vintageHO]
Sent: ‎Wednesday‎, ‎May‎ ‎4‎, ‎2016 ‎9‎:‎12‎ ‎AM
To: corlissbs@... [vintageHO]

Hi Jim,

GREAT question, and one that I'm sure was generated at least partially in response to my remark to Bill's introduction when I wrote "I believe earlier Train Miniature would well be considered within the vintage time-frame we established here (which is still a bit vague sometimes)." Don (Dellmann) briefly outlined here a short while ago, what was to be considered "vintage," but even then a lot was left up in the air without being finalized/pin-pointed as to where a cut-off period would be. I do remember him including certain manufacturers as vintage, right up to 1970 or so -- or was it 1980?

I know what you mean about the automobile world and their threshold for a car to become an antique needing to be at least 25 years old (or more). Motor Vehicle Divisions in many (most? all?) states take this into consideration when a car approaches this age. One of my older cars, a 1993 Mercury Cougar, has been considered by my State (NJ) not to need to be presented for vehicle inspection any longer, as per a letter I received from the Agency several weeks ago with my registration renewal. This new auto registration will expire in May 2017, at which time this car will be 24 years old. At that time, I'll have the choice to renew its registration as is, or re-register it as an antique with "QQ" plates (tags). I don't consider this car any more of an antique than I do my 1949 Ford -- and I don't consider my '49 Ford an antique, but instead, a "Classic" car -- and the Mercury is more "modern" than anything else it could be categorized as. With this, I have to wonder how Sean considers his Mustang; antique or classic? In any case by this it can be seen that an automobile's age has little to do with the age of model trains.

.

I do believe that "vintage" as associated with model trains mainly refers to a certain time period and that it should be restricted primarily to that period, although it appears -- even from what Don stated -- that certain manufacturers may extend past the considered "vintage" time frame to slightly later years, as one set date for all does not appear to have been established. One large part of this period's cut-off date pertains to the particular craftsman construction style of the models produced falls under. By this, yes I would have to say that most (perhaps all?) manufacturers now off the vintage list would remain off the vintage list as "vintage" has nothing to do with increased age, as automobiles would. "Vintage" with H0 trains remains a certain time frame within the period that these models were produced. Additional years gone by has nothing to do with a model being "vintage" and will not change its more modern construction techniques.

The late ' 70's does not necessarily qualify as a general "vintage" cut off period, except as Don spelled out for us previously (and which I don't recall vividly enough to restate at this time). Again, I'm hoping he can clarify this further. While some Atlas/Roco stuff was made in the late ' 70's, I don't see this as being vintage for these models. With Lew English taking over Bill Bowser's "Bowser Manufacturing Co." in 1961, I still feel that it would remain to be considered as vintage at least up until 1970.  Part of this consideration is due to Bowser replacement parts -- even for a 1970 kit -- having been manufactured during that previous decade. To extend the date any further though would just not add to it being vintage. That some Bowser kits contained Penn Line frames only adds to those kits' vintage status. I remember buying two Bowser cast metal boiler Mountain kits around 1977, each kit having a warped cast Penn Line frame. I bought two new Mountain frames from Bowser (Lew English) and was send two cast metal Penn Line frames (not brass frames), yet I don't consider my kits bought in 1977 "vintage."

As for Athearn, while the end of the Hi F drive might be considered as the limit for vintage here, I would extend it into the first generation of geared locomotives (through 1968), which would then take in the 1600 Series of operating (operable) door reefers and the other rolling stock that was made during this period (up through early/mid '60's). There's a marked difference between the operable door moulded plastic reefers and any later ones. I would not consider and Athearn engines produced in the 1970's -- such as the ALCo PA's I bought in 1975 -- to be vintage. Of course, this is only my take on when models cease to be considered vintage, but when I was buying new Athearn locos in 1975, I was also buying "VINTAGE" equipment dating back another 20 to 25 years, and earlier.

As for Life Like and their vintage classification, while those models produced by Sol Kramer would be considered as such, especially because of their age, their particular construction style alone does not necessarily catagorize them as vintage, nor should newer similar versions of Life Like models be considered as vintage only because of them being knock-offs. Ye Old Huff & Puff reproduced many earlier lines in the 1980's but they don't qualify as vintage. In some areas of manufacture, there's a thin line between what's actually vintage and what's still collectible. Walthers reproduced Silver Streak, Ulrich and other lines they bought out, starting in the early 1970's. Many of them even carry the original car side numbers of their predecessor manufacturers. Once built, it's hard to tell them apart from the original manufacturers; models, yet they are not vintage. Pacific HO is vintage, Ulrich is vintage. But not Walthers' reproductions of the same. This does not take away from them though; I have practically everything that Walthers made as reproductions of earlier manufacturers. While I have the original Ulrich line complete, I don't have all of the original Pacific HO/Silver Streak and am glad to have been able to fill in with Walthers kits. The construction methods of these kits are the same craftsman style with the same materials.

Just touching on Train Miniature for a few minutes, this line only started in 1968, yet I feel that they should be considered as vintage when referring to their first manufacturing in California. When they became Train Miniature of Illinois, even while they were similar, I don't seen them as being vintage at this late date, and it becomes a stretch even to consider them as such right up until the move to Illinois.

In general, we can all fall back on the early all-metal, wood & metal and wood models from pre-War up through early post-War and the subsequent decades as certainly being vintage without question. It's where the gray line of "newer" non-vintage starts that's still vague to a lot of members as it can vary with manufacturers.

Ray Wetzel



In a message dated 5/4/2016 6:50:26 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Hey Ray and all,

In the car world, it's an antique at 25 years old. But it's still hard
to call a 1990 Chevy and antigue, let alone a classic. (Some will
disagree, but they still seem like modern cars).

When do we move the clock forward on what is vintage?

As an example, it seems like the early Atlas/Roco stuff would not
qualify but some was made in the late 70's. I can't seem to get it in my
mind that it is 'antique', even though it's over 35 years old at this
point. At what point is Athearn NOT vintage? After rubber band drive?
Some version of their drive train? A time cut off? When does Bowser
become modern - when they ran out of original Penn Line frames (and
switched to brass)?

Are any manufacturers off the list forever and for what reasons? If a
new manufacturer picked up older tooling and continued to produce, is it
vintage (Life Like for example, in various incarnations in the 60's and
70's).

Guys - any thoughts?

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25342	From: corlissbs	Date: 5/4/2016
Subject: Re: When does a train become vintage?

1960 might be a wee bit early for the cut off. Athearn would be vintage, in my opinion, until they put flywheels on their drive. The early geared Athearn dirves are very interesting. Revell and Penn Line are truly "vintage". Penn line had the finest gear drive at the time. Mantua, too, with their power truck in 1962ish. You couldn't kill it. Our local hobby shop ran one continuously. Hobbytown of Boston in 1962 had one of their drives running continuously in their window. I used to visit there quite often.

Walthers was still selling their kits and drives into the mid 1960's.

I still have my 1962 Mantua F7, after many, many miles and it still runs fine.

Brad Smith

Franklin,WI

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25343	From: Doug Harris	Date: 5/4/2016
Subject: Re: Hello I am a new member

On 5/05/2016 04:50, ckinzer@... [vintageHO] wrote:

> I suspect many of us are a “doddering old fool who plays with toys.” Can you get a bumper sticker for that?
> Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Never tell them you play with or have 'toys'. My explanation is that 'I
collect *antique* toys, particularly pre-war and postwar Japanese' which
adds a respectable aura and mystery to it.

Works!
--
Cheers.

Doug Harris - a doddering old 77, and still collecting - trains and years..
Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25344	From: trainliker	Date: 5/4/2016
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Hello I am a new member

The key word is “old” which usually means you don’t have to give a rat’s derriere what anyone else thinks.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Windows Mail

From: corlissbs@... [vintageHO]
Sent: ‎Wednesday‎, ‎May‎ ‎4‎, ‎2016 ‎3‎:‎29‎ ‎PM
To: corlissbs@... [vintageHO]

On 5/05/2016 04:50, ckinzer@... [vintageHO] wrote:
> I suspect many of us are a “doddering old fool who plays with toys.” Can you get a bumper sticker for that?
> Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Never tell them you play with or have 'toys'. My explanation is that 'I
collect *antique* toys, particularly pre-war and postwar Japanese' which
adds a respectable aura and mystery to it.

Works!
--
Cheers.

Doug Harris - a doddering old 77, and still collecting - trains and years..
Auckland, New Zealand

------------------------------------

------------------------------------

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Group: vintageHO	Message: 25345	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 5/4/2016
Subject: Re: Hello I am a new member

Certainly, we never "play" with our trains. Then too, we never "run" them -- we OPERATE them. And then, they're not just "trains," they're MODELS -- and scale models, to boot.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 5/4/2016 7:04:38 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

The key word is “old” which usually means you don’t have to give a rat’s derriere what anyone else thinks.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Windows Mail

From: corlissbs@... [vintageHO]
Sent: ‎Wednesday‎, ‎May‎ ‎4‎, ‎2016 ‎3‎:‎29‎ ‎PM
To: corlissbs@... [vintageHO]

On 5/05/2016 04:50, ckinzer@... [vintageHO] wrote:
> I suspect many of us are a “doddering old fool who plays with toys.” Can you get a bumper sticker for that?
> Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Never tell them you play with or have 'toys'. My explanation is that 'I
collect *antique* toys, particularly pre-war and postwar Japanese' which
adds a respectable aura and mystery to it.

Works!
--
Cheers.

Doug Harris - a doddering old 77, and still collecting - trains and years..
Auckland, New Zealand

------------------------------------

------------------------------------

------------------------------------

Yahoo Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

<*> Your email settings:
    Individual Email | Traditional

<*> To change settings online go to:
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<*> To change settings via email:
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<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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<*> Your use of Yahoo Groups is subject to:
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Group: vintageHO	Message: 25346	From: bobbinbill229	Date: 5/4/2016
Subject: Heljan transfer table DC, not DCC

Does anyone know of detailed, step-by-step instructions for programming a Heljan transfer table? I am pulling out what hair is left trying to figure it out. Ordinary DC, not DCC.

If you know, or can point me in the right direction, I'd appreciate it. Someone out there must have figured it out - Help!

Thanks

Bill Scott

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25347	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 5/4/2016
Subject: Re: When does a train become vintage?

Brad,

I notice Don revised his stance on the time line that vintage would include. Just as you brought out, I too feel that the early Athearn drives have something that sets them apart from newer mechanisms; my reason for including them as vintage in my earlier message. Revell and Penn Line are a "given!" There was never any question about these two manufacturers being vintage. Mantua is unquestionably an old standby as a vintage manufacturer producing vintage products. With more modern designs as time went by, it is seen that these newer designs became more removed from their earlier vintage engineering as they "improved" (became "updated"). Here's one company in particular that, while not equaling the outward lines of the products of their contemporaries, their more generic appearance was far outdone by the quality engineering of their drives, making them one of the most reliable vintage mechanisms produced. They join the Eveready Battery in their dependability to keep running.

One major reason why one certain dateline for "vintage" not being able to be set is because not all manufacturers' engineering and design were the same, while they all included fairly decent quality of varying degrees. They were all somewhat different in design, with some even being innovative, yet none were primitive -- and none were duplicated as similar in their design to more "advanced" models ("advanced," not necessarily always meaning better, but only newer). Early Hobbytown was an exception; while they were always top quality, their flywheel drive was an improvement. The multitude of various early manufacturers' different designs and early products did not all extend to only one certain year where vintage would not exceed, nor did every vintage manufacturer produce their acceptably vintage products up to only one specific year. Each one of these earlier designs though, were unmistakenly different from later manufacture, whether it be in motive power or in rolling stock. This is one good reason why Walthers stamped metal sided craftsman type construction passenger cars remain "vintage" right up through the 1970's. The design changed little from the similar passenger kits they produced in the 1930's, albeit, rivet detail not included early on (added in the '50's), and is vastly different from what they're producing today. Their switch to molded styrene roofs should not negate their vintage status.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 5/4/2016 4:34:14 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

1960 might be a wee bit early for the cut off. Athearn would be vintage, in my opinion, until they put flywheels on their drive. The early geared Athearn dirves are very interesting. Revell and Penn Line are truly "vintage". Penn line had the finest gear drive at the time. Mantua, too, with their power truck in 1962ish. You couldn't kill it. Our local hobby shop ran one continuously. Hobbytown of Boston in 1962 had one of their drives running continuously in their window. I used to visit there quite often.

Walthers was still selling their kits and drives into the mid 1960's.

I still have my 1962 Mantua F7, after many, many miles and it still runs fine.

Brad Smith

Franklin,WI

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25348	From: Donald R. Staton	Date: 5/4/2016
Subject: Re: When does a train become vintage?

Thanks Don...
Since vintage is what most of us are, at least according to age, we seem to still have that great attachment to the equipment we started with. My first operating locomotive was Athearn HI-F... My first big steam loco was built from a Mantua Mike chassis I bought and put into a Hobbyline dummy Berk kit... And with all I have owned since, I still have those locos and they still operate. Though a lot of older stuff has come and gone through my stuff, and a lot of it I would like to see and own again, I am more attached to model trains than ever and just made some very good parts buys from Sean on Ebay. That purchase will keep me going for a long time yet before I get them all put into use.

Thanks for starting and maintaining this group.

Happy railroading...
Don Staton in VA
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

On 5/4/2016 2:47 PM, Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... [vintageHO] wrote:

When I started the group, I considered the cut-off date to be about 1960. Since then it's evolved more into a "style" of modelling, rather than a hard and fast date.

The wood and metal kits, even some of the early plastic. Companies like Quality Craft and Ambroid made this type of kit into the 70's, Mainline, silver streak, LW, live on today in the form of "ye olde Huff 'n puff" (sp?). The availability of scratchbuilding supplies. Even the idea of "good" paint (NOT acrylics) and deals that you just can't get anymore.

What I'd rather not see is reproductions, unless it may be to fabricate a part to complete an otherwise "vintage" model (sorry Mike), major upgrades of locomotives (I turn a blind eye to remotering, but if you put DCC in it, don't tell me! or ANYTHING made in China

The real thing I was more concerned about was this was NOT to be a group about strictly collecting. The whole idea was that we RAN our models.

I don't know if this helps or not.

Don

Don Dellmann Contact me at: don.dellmann@... See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

On 5/4/2016 11:41 AM, ckinzer@... [vintageHO] wrote:

I guess “vintage” is necessarily a relative term.

Today’s detailed injected molded electronics laden offerings may be vintage to a future Jetson family member. The notion of having to machine metal dies may become rather quaint.

Perhaps we need to think in terms of “ages”. Such as the “scratch age” that might arguably be the first.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Windows Mail

From: corlissbs@... [vintageHO]
Sent: ‎Wednesday‎, ‎May‎ ‎4‎, ‎2016 ‎9‎:‎12‎ ‎AM
To: corlissbs@... [vintageHO]

Hi Jim,

GREAT question, and one that I'm sure was generated at least partially in response to my remark to Bill's introduction when I wrote "I believe earlier Train Miniature would well be considered within the vintage time-frame we established here (which is still a bit vague sometimes)." Don (Dellmann) briefly outlined here a short while ago, what was to be considered "vintage," but even then a lot was left up in the air without being finalized/pin-pointed as to where a cut-off period would be. I do remember him including certain manufacturers as vintage, right up to 1970 or so -- or was it 1980?

I know what you mean about the automobile world and their threshold for a car to become an antique needing to be at least 25 years old (or more). Motor Vehicle Divisions in many (most? all?) states take this into consideration when a car approaches this age. One of my older cars, a 1993 Mercury Cougar, has been considered by my State (NJ) not to need to be presented for vehicle inspection any longer, as per a letter I received from the Agency several weeks ago with my registration renewal. This new auto registration will expire in May 2017, at which time this car will be 24 years old. At that time, I'll have the choice to renew its registration as is, or re-register it as an antique with "QQ" plates (tags). I don't consider this car any more of an antique than I do my 1949 Ford -- and I don't consider my '49 Ford an antique, but instead, a "Classic" car -- and the Mercury is more "modern" than anything else it could be categorized as. With this, I have to wonder how Sean considers his Mustang; antique or classic? In any case by this it can be seen that an automobile's age has little to do with the age of model trains.

.

I do believe that "vintage" as associated with model trains mainly refers to a certain time period and that it should be restricted primarily to that period, although it appears -- even from what Don stated -- that certain manufacturers may extend past the considered "vintage" time frame to slightly later years, as one set date for all does not appear to have been established. One large part of this period's cut-off date pertains to the particular craftsman construction style of the models produced falls under. By this, yes I would have to say that most (perhaps all?) manufacturers now off the vintage list would remain off the vintage list as "vintage" has nothing to do with increased age, as automobiles would. "Vintage" with H0 trains remains a certain time frame within the period that these models were produced. Additional years gone by has nothing to do with a model being "vintage" and will not change its more modern construction techniques.

The late ' 70's does not necessarily qualify as a general "vintage" cut off period, except as Don spelled out for us previously (and which I don't recall vividly enough to restate at this time). Again, I'm hoping he can clarify this further. While some Atlas/Roco stuff was made in the late ' 70's, I don't see this as being vintage for these models. With Lew English taking over Bill Bowser's "Bowser Manufacturing Co." in 1961, I still feel that it would remain to be considered as vintage at least up until 1970.  Part of this consideration is due to Bowser replacement parts -- even for a 1970 kit -- having been manufactured during that previous decade. To extend the date any further though would just not add to it being vintage. That some Bowser kits contained Penn Line frames only adds to those kits' vintage status. I remember buying two Bowser cast metal boiler Mountain kits around 1977, each kit having a warped cast Penn Line frame. I bought two new Mountain frames from Bowser (Lew English) and was send two cast metal Penn Line frames (not brass frames), yet I don't consider my kits bought in 1977 "vintage."

As for Athearn, while the end of the Hi F drive might be considered as the limit for vintage here, I would extend it into the first generation of geared locomotives (through 1968), which would then take in the 1600 Series of operating (operable) door reefers and the other rolling stock that was made during this period (up through early/mid '60's). There's a marked difference between the operable door moulded plastic reefers and any later ones. I would not consider and Athearn engines produced in the 1970's -- such as the ALCo PA's I bought in 1975 -- to be vintage. Of course, this is only my take on when models cease to be considered vintage, but when I was buying new Athearn locos in 1975, I was also buying "VINTAGE" equipment dating back another 20 to 25 years, and earlier.

As for Life Like and their vintage classification, while those models produced by Sol Kramer would be considered as such, especially because of their age, their particular construction style alone does not necessarily catagorize them as vintage, nor should newer similar versions of Life Like models be considered as vintage only because of them being knock-offs. Ye Old Huff & Puff reproduced many earlier lines in the 1980's but they don't qualify as vintage. In some areas of manufacture, there's a thin line between what's actually vintage and what's still collectible. Walthers reproduced Silver Streak, Ulrich and other lines they bought out, starting in the early 1970's. Many of them even carry the original car side numbers of their predecessor manufacturers. Once built, it's hard to tell them apart from the original manufacturers; models, yet they are not vintage. Pacific HO is vintage, Ulrich is vintage. But not Walthers' reproductions of the same. This does not take away from them though; I have practically everything that Walthers made as reproductions of earlier manufacturers. While I have the original Ulrich line complete, I don't have all of the original Pacific HO/Silver Streak and am glad to have been able to fill in with Walthers kits. The construction methods of these kits are the same craftsman style with the same materials.

Just touching on Train Miniature for a few minutes, this line only started in 1968, yet I feel that they should be considered as vintage when referring to their first manufacturing in California. When they became Train Miniature of Illinois, even while they were similar, I don't seen them as being vintage at this late date, and it becomes a stretch even to consider them as such right up until the move to Illinois.

In general, we can all fall back on the early all-metal, wood & metal and wood models from pre-War up through early post-War and the subsequent decades as certainly being vintage without question. It's where the gray line of "newer" non-vintage starts that's still vague to a lot of members as it can vary with manufacturers.

Ray Wetzel



In a message dated 5/4/2016 6:50:26 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Hey Ray and all,

In the car world, it's an antique at 25 years old. But it's still hard
to call a 1990 Chevy and antigue, let alone a classic. (Some will
disagree, but they still seem like modern cars).

When do we move the clock forward on what is vintage?

As an example, it seems like the early Atlas/Roco stuff would not
qualify but some was made in the late 70's. I can't seem to get it in my
mind that it is 'antique', even though it's over 35 years old at this
point. At what point is Athearn NOT vintage? After rubber band drive?
Some version of their drive train? A time cut off? When does Bowser
become modern - when they ran out of original Penn Line frames (and
switched to brass)?

Are any manufacturers off the list forever and for what reasons? If a
new manufacturer picked up older tooling and continued to produce, is it
vintage (Life Like for example, in various incarnations in the 60's and
70's).

Guys - any thoughts?

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25349	From: corlissbs	Date: 5/4/2016
Subject: Re: When does a train become vintage?

Ray:

You wrote a great letter. I had to chuckle when you mentioned the Hobbytown flywheel. My early Hobbytown diesels had no flywheel and then the drives had either a flywheel or a centrifugal clutch-your choice. I chose the flywheel for my RS-3. The clutch didn't last long as an option. I also had a Revell SW7 with a centrifugal clutch. It was fun and prevented the jackrabbit starts common of Revell.

I forgot to mention Varney-definitely vintage. I still have all of those in my collection.

Brad Smith

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25350	From: Ed Weldon	Date: 5/4/2016
Subject: Re: When does a train become vintage?

Antique is older than me (one who claims to be older than dirt; but lies)
Vintage is anything designed before I was 25 and good enough to be saved
from the garbage dump (what we did before we called them landfills)
Ed Weldon (age 77 and still full of irritating opinions) [:>}

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25351	From: Rick Jones	Date: 5/4/2016
Subject: Re: When does a train become vintage?

On 5/4/2016 8:53 PM, Ed Weldon 23.weldon@... [vintageHO] wrote:

> Antique is older than me (one who claims to be older than dirt; but lies)
> Vintage is anything designed before I was 25 and good enough to be saved
> from the garbage dump (what we did before we called them landfills)

I think I might follow something like this:

Antique - first generation models, mostly craftsman kits
Athearn metal, etc

Vintage - second generation, early plastic and advanced craftsman kits
Athearn blue box, Globe, Varney, and other basic plastic kits up through
the mid-'90s, Fine Scale Miniatures, Ambroid, Sheepscot, La Belle

Modern - third generation highly detailed kits and RTR, DCC era
Athearn Genesis, Proto 2000, Kadee, Red Caboose, Intermountain, etc.

Since I am not sure when various companies began and ended
production I'm not sure whether some, like Central Valley and Silver
Streak, would be antique or vintage.

--

Rick Jones

"Milhouse, we're living in the age of cooties."
-Bart Simpson, "The Simpsons"

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25352	From: leetrains	Date: 5/4/2016
Subject: Re: The Bowser fire sale

guess what?? Bowser just emailed another Fire Sale flyer.....
Lee

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25353	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 5/5/2016
Subject: Re: The Bowser fire sale

Is there an expiration date for these flyers, or is it just that sales end when the stock runs out? I hadn't noticed any time period/restriction with the first sale flyer but I could have missed it.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 5/4/2016 11:30:47 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

guess what?? Bowser just emailed another Fire Sale flyer.....
Lee

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25354	From: William Murray	Date: 5/5/2016
Subject: Re: Hello I am a new member

Thanks for your reply. Yes Atlas switch's are ugly and non-prototype. I use them because everything else cost too damn much. Could these tortoise machines work on an Atlas turnout? Ain't no way I could replace all my turnouts and machines. My pension isn't that big. I am becoming increasingly disillusioned with Atlas. I have noticed some of my turnouts have lost their internal connection and the part between the frog and the end is dead. But my biggest pita was with my 19 degree crossings. I had four and many of my locos stalled on them. I replaced them with Peco crossings and the problem went away. And Atlas customer service is the pits! I know more about how their relays work than they do !! (I am not exaggerating). I find my self replacing some of my Atlas turnouts when there is no apparent damage. They just poop out internally. And their 280 series of turnouts are garbage. They have no screwdown tabs and the machines fly off the ties when you power them!! I like the old 260 series because them had metal frogs too. Anyway glad to hear from you.

On Tuesday, May 3, 2016 10:24 AM, "Victor Bitleris bitlerisvj@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Hi Bill,

Like some folks already said, welcome to VintageHO. It sounds like you have been in the hobby for some time. Which explains some of the vintage technology you are using. I am sure glad there are folks to help you out with this stuff so you can keep it going and have fun with it.

I was part of an operations group where about 25 or 30 of us operated once a month on a "Vintage" layout. It even had a "Vintage" DCC system, Wangrow, which was absorbed by NCE and is compatible with it. It had a mix of switch machines, including some Tortoises. It also used a whole LOT of relays for signaling as well. Long story short, after about 30 or so years of use, many of these "Vintage" components were starting to fail over the past 10 years. Many relays and switch machines were no longer available for replacement and we jury rigged some to keep the layout operating, but it was a losing battle. This was a very large layout and at any given time there were about 10 engineers plus yard workers operating locomotives on 12 hour (fast clock) shifts. Anyway, the owner, as well as the layout were aging at the same time and we had to shut it down last October. The layout is being torn down now.

I learned many things on my own the hard way and several others from this layout.

I hope your relays and switch machines hold out better than my experience shows. Maybe they will, because the wear and tear is directly related to how much use the stuff gets.

I started out with Atlas switch machines at first about 30 years ago, but never did like them. They really did not work very well and they looked obvious on top of the layout next to the turnout. Then Atlas came out with the under the table switch machines and I bought several. These were even less reliable. I then went to Rix switch machines and found them full of headaches, but somewhat better than Atlas, if you used Rix Rax mounts. I then went to dual coil machines like NJ International, Kemtron, or Tenshodo. While not prefect, the worked pretty well and did have built in contacts for frog powering and indicating. Eventually, I found out about Tortoise Switch machines shortly after converting to DCC and thought I went to Heaven. Tortoise have two sets of built in contacts, use VERY little current and work all the time, every time. No need for relays and external contacts and no special circuitry and logic as in servos which some folks use. Yeah, I keep hearing about expense, BUT when you buy them by the dozen, they come out to about $13.75 each, but no need for any fancy relays or power supplies and boosters. A 1 amp 12 volt power supply will power 65 Tortoises.

I don't suggest at all to change out such a large amount of equipment you have now, but I am sure that going under the layout to repair this stuff will get old. But, you may wish to consider changing out the old stuff when it does fail to something more reliable. That is what I did. I still have some dual coil switch machines, but have replaced many others with Tortoises due to attrition.

Good luck and regards, Vic B.

Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of William Murray william.murray@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 3, 2016 12:08 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Hello I am a new member

The reason I use so many relays...... every turnout needs a powered frog and a signal. Converging turnouts also need a track section in front of the points that is powered off when a turnout is set to turn. And when using 3 way signals on a double crossover another relay for each line for more signal work. I use AC for signals and track DC for all the other functions. Oh yes, when multiple converging turnouts are back to back we need relays wired in series to make sure the safety track is good for all turnouts. It can get complex.

On Monday, May 2, 2016 7:21 PM, "'Chuck Higdon' vze5crrw1@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Hi Bill,

I had this problem in the past and more AMPs helps solve the issue. Definitely do not go to a lighter wire, as that can be part of the problem. Last month we ran a second 14GA common wire to the buttons and that solved the problem we had in one area. The lighter the wire the greater the resistance and less amps are delivered to the devices.

I run 14 GA bus line around the layout and tie all the commons to the one side and tap off for the buttons along the edge of my layout. I now have the buttons close to the turnouts because I use wireless control, so no big panel with the track diagram for switching tracks.

Take care,

Chuck

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Monday, May 2, 2016 2:03 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Hello I am a new member

OK I see some of the members here also belong to the cast iron loco group as well. I have 50 some relays connected to Atlas turnouts. Some have one button powering one turnout and one relay.Others have one button powering 2 turnouts and 3 relays. My problem is that some of these, and not always the bigger groupings, have trouble getting off and powering everybody correctly. I do have the most expensive CDU I could find, but it can't seem to correct the problem. I use heavy duty wire from control panel to every device. I am thinking some of my relays may not be suitable for work in the bigger circuits (they all test ok when tested alone) or that maybe I should try lighter wire at the very end, that is to the relays themselves. Anyway, ever have any experience like this ?? Thanks. BTW all my buttons, turnouts and relays are Atlas.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25355	From: William Murray	Date: 5/5/2016
Subject: Re: Hello I am a new member

That is about the only good thing I have found since becoming a senile citizen.

On Wednesday, May 4, 2016 6:04 PM, "ckinzer@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

The key word is “old” which usually means you don’t have to give a rat’s derriere what anyone else thinks.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Windows Mail

From: corlissbs@... [vintageHO]
Sent: ‎Wednesday‎, ‎May‎ ‎4‎, ‎2016 ‎3‎:‎29‎ ‎PM
To: corlissbs@... [vintageHO]

On 5/05/2016 04:50, ckinzer@... [vintageHO] wrote:
> I suspect many of us are a “doddering old fool who plays with toys.” Can you get a bumper sticker for that?
> Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Never tell them you play with or have 'toys'. My explanation is that 'I
collect *antique* toys, particularly pre-war and postwar Japanese' which
adds a respectable aura and mystery to it.

Works!
--
Cheers.

Doug Harris - a doddering old 77, and still collecting - trains and years..
Auckland, New Zealand

------------------------------------

------------------------------------

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Group: vintageHO	Message: 25356	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 5/5/2016
Subject: Re: When does a train become vintage?

Brad,

The thought of centrifugal (and other) clutches occurred to me when I wrote of Hobbytown's flywheel drive, although I wasn't aware that Hobbytown actually offered one (centrifugal clutch) with their kits. Back around when Hobbytown was first getting started, the Jerry Martin "CentriClutch" (manufactured by American R.R. Models) was produced by 1953 -- as per Model R.R. Equipment Corp. catalog -- with the major portion of sales offered as an after-market addition for the cast-metal Varney F-3. I thought I even recalled reading that Gordon Varney advertised it to be used with his F units (although, not sold with his kits), but can't seem to locate that info anywhere now.

The Jerry Martin "CentriClutch" was offered in four different models; Model R.R. Equipment Corp. Catalog # 2271H was designed for the Hobbytown E-7, even back that far. Catalog # 2272H was for the Varney F-3A (and/or F-3B), the # 2273H was for the Varney EMD Switcher and the # 2274H was for the John English ALCo FA (and/or FB). These were friction clutches. A little-known company by the name of Tomhor (not Tomar) also produced clutches, but were of the hydraulic design. I recall they were to be filled inside with petroleum jelly. There were four different models of these too; Model R.R. Equipment Cop. catalog # 2275H (Tomhor catalog # 603) was designed for the Hobbytown E-7. The Tomhar catalog # 601 was for the Dual Powered Varney F-3 Brute, the # 602 was designed for the Single Powered Varney F-3 and the # 600 was similar to the previous two except it lacked the Mounting Unit. Then, there was the Kadee Hydraulic Clutch -- Model R.R. Equipment Corp. catalog # 2279H -- which was "adaptable to various diesels."

No need to remind us that Varney is vintage. That's already assumed. Varney goes back to October 1936, that I know of, and for my estimation the vintage designation includes every Varney product up until the time he sold his business to Sol Kramer in May 1957. While Sol Kramer's "Varney" line is still considered vintage after this time, there appeared to be a reduction in quality compared the Gordon Varney's products. For a good number of years (1959 through 1966), Kramer held promotions of his Varney freight cars, selling them during these periods for $1 each. While much went on in subsequent years, it all ended when Kramer finally transferred his operations to Hong Kong in 1971/1972 (after moving it all to Taiwan in 1968) in care of Ying Lai Cheng and later, in 1975, with Wai Shing Ting for Life Like. At that time, Life Like rolling stock was about the poorest quality models being marketed. Chain department stores in this area (Northeast USA) were selling Life Like freight cars for 49 cents (and less).

Ray Wetzel.

In a message dated 5/4/2016 8:53:22 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Ray:

You wrote a great letter. I had to chuckle when you mentioned the Hobbytown flywheel. My early Hobbytown diesels had no flywheel and then the drives had either a flywheel or a centrifugal clutch-your choice. I chose the flywheel for my RS-3. The clutch didn't last long as an option. I also had a Revell SW7 with a centrifugal clutch. It was fun and prevented the jackrabbit starts common of Revell.

I forgot to mention Varney-definitely vintage. I still have all of those in my collection.

Brad Smith

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25357	From: William Murray	Date: 5/5/2016
Subject: Re: When does a train become vintage?

Here is my thought on vintage: If I can afford it, it is vintage. A BLI engine is new, and it is expensive. (Who would pay $500 for an engine?). Therefore it is doubly disqualified. A Mantua pacific from the 80's is too new to be vintage, but it is built the same as when it was vintage. So what does that make it? In my book, vintage, but only if I could afford it.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25358	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 5/5/2016
Subject: Re: Hello I am a new member

Attachments :

With the tracks losing power it is in the plate the points pivot over. Mostly in the winter when the wood shrinks because it dries out some. Putting jumpers in from the running rails to the inside rails solves the issue, but it is extra work you did not want to have to do. But once done, it is done. Or bigger gaps between the rails on the switch and joining tracks. Or a bigger nail to hold the switch flat.

Take care,

Chuck

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Wednesday, May 4, 2016 12:26 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Hello I am a new member

On Tuesday, May 3, 2016 10:24 AM, "Victor Bitleris bitlerisvj@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Hi Bill,
Like some folks already said, welcome to VintageHO. It sounds like you have been in the hobby for some time. Which explains some of the vintage technology you are using. I am sure glad there are folks to help you out with this stuff so you can keep it going and have fun with it.
I was part of an operations group where about 25 or 30 of us operated once a month on a "Vintage" layout. It even had a "Vintage" DCC system, Wangrow, which was absorbed by NCE and is compatible with it. It had a mix of switch machines, including some Tortoises. It also used a whole LOT of relays for signaling as well. Long story short, after about 30 or so years of use, many of these "Vintage" components were starting to fail over the past 10 years. Many relays and switch machines were no longer available for replacement and we jury rigged some to keep the layout operating, but it was a losing battle. This was a very large layout and at any given time there were about 10 engineers plus yard workers operating locomotives on 12 hour (fast clock) shifts. Anyway, the owner, as well as the layout were aging at the same time and we had to shut it down last October. The layout is being torn down now.
I learned many things on my own the hard way and several others from this layout.
I hope your relays and switch machines hold out better than my experience shows. Maybe they will, because the wear and tear is directly related to how much use the stuff gets.
I started out with Atlas switch machines at first about 30 years ago, but never did like them. They really did not work very well and they looked obvious on top of the layout next to the turnout. Then Atlas came out with the under the table switch machines and I bought several. These were even less reliable. I then went to Rix switch machines and found them full of headaches, but somewhat better than Atlas, if you used Rix Rax mounts. I then went to dual coil machines like NJ International, Kemtron, or Tenshodo. While not prefect, the worked pretty well and did have built in contacts for frog powering and indicating. Eventually, I found out about Tortoise Switch machines shortly after converting to DCC and thought I went to Heaven. Tortoise have two sets of built in contacts, use VERY little current and work all the time, every time. No need for relays and external contacts and no special circuitry and logic as in servos which some folks use. Yeah, I keep hearing about expense, BUT when you buy them by the dozen, they come out to about $13.75 each, but no need for any fancy relays or power supplies and boosters. A 1 amp 12 volt power supply will power 65 Tortoises.
I don't suggest at all to change out such a large amount of equipment you have now, but I am sure that going under the layout to repair this stuff will get old. But, you may wish to consider changing out the old stuff when it does fail to something more reliable. That is what I did. I still have some dual coil switch machines, but have replaced many others with Tortoises due to attrition.
Good luck and regards, Vic B.

Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of William Murray william.murray@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 3, 2016 12:08 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Hello I am a new member

The reason I use so many relays...... every turnout needs a powered frog and a signal. Converging turnouts also need a track section in front of the points that is powered off when a turnout is set to turn. And when using 3 way signals on a double crossover another relay for each line for more signal work. I use AC for signals and track DC for all the other functions. Oh yes, when multiple converging turnouts are back to back we need relays wired in series to make sure the safety track is good for all turnouts. It can get complex.

On Monday, May 2, 2016 7:21 PM, "'Chuck Higdon' vze5crrw1@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Hi Bill,
I had this problem in the past and more AMPs helps solve the issue. Definitely do not go to a lighter wire, as that can be part of the problem. Last month we ran a second 14GA common wire to the buttons and that solved the problem we had in one area. The lighter the wire the greater the resistance and less amps are delivered to the devices.

I run 14 GA bus line around the layout and tie all the commons to the one side and tap off for the buttons along the edge of my layout. I now have the buttons close to the turnouts because I use wireless control, so no big panel with the track diagram for switching tracks.

Take care,
Chuck

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Monday, May 2, 2016 2:03 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Hello I am a new member

OK I see some of the members here also belong to the cast iron loco group as well. I have 50 some relays connected to Atlas turnouts. Some have one button powering one turnout and one relay.Others have one button powering 2 turnouts and 3 relays. My problem is that some of these, and not always the bigger groupings, have trouble getting off and powering everybody correctly. I do have the most expensive CDU I could find, but it can't seem to correct the problem. I use heavy duty wire from control panel to every device. I am thinking some of my relays may not be suitable for work in the bigger circuits (they all test ok when tested alone) or that maybe I should try lighter wire at the very end, that is to the relays themselves. Anyway, ever have any experience like this ?? Thanks. BTW all my buttons, turnouts and relays are Atlas.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25359	From: Donald R. Staton	Date: 5/5/2016
Subject: Re: The Bowser fire sale

Some items that were there are now missing - meaning they are sold out. Some items that I tried to get off the first list that were out of stock are now missing on this new list.

Don Staton in VA

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

On 5/5/2016 7:48 AM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] wrote:

Is there an expiration date for these flyers, or is it just that sales end when the stock runs out? I hadn't noticed any time period/restriction with the first sale flyer but I could have missed it.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 5/4/2016 11:30:47 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

guess what?? Bowser just emailed another Fire Sale flyer.....
Lee

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25360	From: John Hagen	Date: 5/5/2016
Subject: Re: When does a train become vintage?

Well,

2015 is “vintage.” Trying to define it is a tad on the improbable side. But I would personally consider anything that is no longer available, had some sort of significance, was not made in the thousands and appeals to me as vintage. Now this means that vintage would be many things to many people. But what it means on this group is something else.

This does come up from time to time. Me thinks it is best for Don Dellmann, list owner, to set the parameters. He has done so in the past but what they were and/or when they were posted --------?

The groups home page states;

“Group Description

This is the place for those who collect and RUN that wonderful vintage HO from the early 1960's and before.

Does the thought of Varney, Penn Line, Megow, Kasiner, Blue Line, Lionel HO, Ulrich, American Beauty, Hobbyline, Marx, Revell, etc. etc. make your heart beat faster? This is the place for you.

Athearn Metal cars, MDC back when they really WERE "diecast", Walthers metal passenger cars, all are "on topic" here.

The models us "olde pharts" grew up with, the wood and metal, and even cardstock kits. The pioneering plastic models, all the heritage that made model railroading the greatest hobby in the world.

Join us as we go back to those thrilling days of yesteryear.”

Maybe Don will post an undated version and put it in a file folder so we can direct inquirers to it in the future?

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2016 11:13 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] When does a train become vintage?

Hi Jim,

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 5/4/2016 6:50:26 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Hey Ray and all,

In the car world, it's an antique at 25 years old. But it's still hard
to call a 1990 Chevy and antigue, let alone a classic. (Some will
disagree, but they still seem like modern cars).

When do we move the clock forward on what is vintage?

As an example, it seems like the early Atlas/Roco stuff would not
qualify but some was made in the late 70's. I can't seem to get it in my
mind that it is 'antique', even though it's over 35 years old at this
point. At what point is Athearn NOT vintage? After rubber band drive?
Some version of their drive train? A time cut off? When does Bowser
become modern - when they ran out of original Penn Line frames (and
switched to brass)?

Are any manufacturers off the list forever and for what reasons? If a
new manufacturer picked up older tooling and continued to produce, is it
vintage (Life Like for example, in various incarnations in the 60's and
70's).

Guys - any thoughts?

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25361	From: trainliker	Date: 5/5/2016
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] When does a train become vintage?

I don’t see where rarity or quantity has anything to do with “vintage”. There were a lot of Model T’s made, but most people would generally call them “vintage”. I believe most would not consider any of the 2016 limited production “super cars” as “vintage”.

I keep harking back to eras, like with automobiles. Here is one definition of auto eras:

Early

Brass (a.k.a Veteran or Ewardian)

Vintage

Prewar

Postwar

Modern

(Interestingly, those last three are used in the Lionel world.)

As an example, “Brass” mean cars of the era with the brass headlamps and such. I have heard this term used a lot and I don’t think there is a lot of disagreement about it.

The “what” transitions in model railroading seem significant and should probably play a role in defining some sort of dividing lines.

The “when” will probably be a moving target as what is new today is old tomorrow. So a “when” definition may move over time. But the “what” wouldn’t.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Windows Mail

From: corlissbs@... [vintageHO]
Sent: ‎Wednesday‎, ‎May‎ ‎4‎, ‎2016 ‎9‎:‎55‎ ‎AM
To: corlissbs@... [vintageHO]

Well,

This does come up from time to time. Me thinks it is best for Don Dellmann, list owner, to set the parameters. He has done so in the past but what they were and/or when they were posted --------?

The groups home page states;

“Group Description

Maybe Don will post an undated version and put it in a file folder so we can direct inquirers to it in the future?

John Hagen

Hi Jim,

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 5/4/2016 6:50:26 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Hey Ray and all,

In the car world, it's an antique at 25 years old. But it's still hard
to call a 1990 Chevy and antigue, let alone a classic. (Some will
disagree, but they still seem like modern cars).

When do we move the clock forward on what is vintage?

As an example, it seems like the early Atlas/Roco stuff would not
qualify but some was made in the late 70's. I can't seem to get it in my
mind that it is 'antique', even though it's over 35 years old at this
point. At what point is Athearn NOT vintage? After rubber band drive?
Some version of their drive train? A time cut off? When does Bowser
become modern - when they ran out of original Penn Line frames (and
switched to brass)?

Are any manufacturers off the list forever and for what reasons? If a
new manufacturer picked up older tooling and continued to produce, is it
vintage (Life Like for example, in various incarnations in the 60's and
70's).

Guys - any thoughts?

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25362	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 5/5/2016
Subject: Re: When does a train become vintage?

Well, that's certainly one way of looking at this < g >. Engines today are priced out of sight, and far to high for the average teen ager (or younger modeler). It doesn't look as though the new prospective modelers today can afford it, nor can it be assured that the hobby can continue with the younger generation when they're priced out of it.

While your take on this seems right on, in the general application, there are vintage locomotives that are far from being reasonably priced and which sometimes can exceed your $500 example. Unless you're real lucky, any of the formed brass Mantua steam engines can easily be priced at $250 or more, with the pre-War Consolidation costing near if not equal to this $500 figure -- and of course they're all well within being vintage. You couldn't touch a Penn Line Crusader for only $500 as most of the very few decent ones that appeared on eBay over the last few years went between $1200 and $1400. This loco is definitely vintage no matter how you slice it. Those who were able to get one of these gems at these prices consider themselves fortunate as there were only 200 of them made. Consider a Winton C&O Allegheny or a Schrader New Haven EP4, too. A George Stock PRR GG-1 is exceptionally heavy, not only in its cast bronze weight but in the money it would take to purchase one (around $700 -- minimum).

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 5/5/2016 10:36:24 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Here is my thought on vintage: If I can afford it, it is vintage. A BLI engine is new, and it is expensive. (Who would pay $500 for an engine?). Therefore it is doubly disqualified. A Mantua pacific from the 80's is too new to be vintage, but it is built the same as when it was vintage. So what does that make it? In my book, vintage, but only if I could afford it.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25363	From: Brad Smith	Date: 5/5/2016
Subject: Re: Hello I am a new member

My wife says that I play with my toys.

Brad Smith

Sent from Brad's iPod

On May 4, 2016, at 6:12 PM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Certainly, we never "play" with our trains. Then too, we never "run" them -- we OPERATE them. And then, they're not just "trains," they're MODELS -- and scale models, to boot.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 5/4/2016 7:04:38 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

The key word is “old” which usually means you don’t have to give a rat’s derriere what anyone else thinks.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Windows Mail

From: corlissbs@... [vintageHO]
Sent: ‎Wednesday‎, ‎May‎ ‎4‎, ‎2016 ‎3‎:‎29‎ ‎PM
To: corlissbs@... [vintageHO]

On 5/05/2016 04:50, ckinzer@... [vintageHO] wrote:
> I suspect many of us are a “doddering old fool who plays with toys.” Can you get a bumper sticker for that?
> Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Never tell them you play with or have 'toys'. My explanation is that 'I
collect *antique* toys, particularly pre-war and postwar Japanese' which
adds a respectable aura and mystery to it.

Works!
--
Cheers.

Doug Harris - a doddering old 77, and still collecting - trains and years..
Auckland, New Zealand

------------------------------------

------------------------------------

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Group: vintageHO	Message: 25364	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 5/5/2016
Subject: Re: When does a train become vintage?

Agreed, "vintage" is not necessarily rare and has nothing to do with how many were made or are still available. But, there are rare vintage models and because of their scarcity, they command a good deal of money to purchase these vintage pieces.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 5/5/2016 2:14:37 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

I don’t see where rarity or quantity has anything to do with “vintage”. There were a lot of Model T’s made, but most people would generally call them “vintage”. I believe most would not consider any of the 2016 limited production “super cars” as “vintage”.

I keep harking back to eras, like with automobiles. Here is one definition of auto eras:

Early

Brass (a.k.a Veteran or Ewardian)

Vintage

Prewar

Postwar

Modern

(Interestingly, those last three are used in the Lionel world.)

As an example, “Brass” mean cars of the era with the brass headlamps and such. I have heard this term used a lot and I don’t think there is a lot of disagreement about it.

The “what” transitions in model railroading seem significant and should probably play a role in defining some sort of dividing lines.

The “when” will probably be a moving target as what is new today is old tomorrow. So a “when” definition may move over time. But the “what” wouldn’t.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Windows Mail

From: corlissbs@... [vintageHO]
Sent: ‎Wednesday‎, ‎May‎ ‎4‎, ‎2016 ‎9‎:‎55‎ ‎AM
To: corlissbs@... [vintageHO]

Well,

2015 is “vintage.” Trying to define it is a tad on the improbable side. But I would personally consider anything that is no longer available, had some sort of significance, was not made in the thousands and appeals to me as vintage. Now this means that vintage would be many things to many people. But what it means on this group is something else.

This does come up from time to time. Me thinks it is best for Don Dellmann, list owner, to set the parameters. He has done so in the past but what they were and/or when they were posted --------?

The groups home page states;

“Group Description

This is the place for those who collect and RUN that wonderful vintage HO from the early 1960's and before.

Does the thought of Varney, Penn Line, Megow, Kasiner, Blue Line, Lionel HO, Ulrich, American Beauty, Hobbyline, Marx, Revell, etc. etc. make your heart beat faster? This is the place for you.

Athearn Metal cars, MDC back when they really WERE "diecast", Walthers metal passenger cars, all are "on topic" here.

The models us "olde pharts" grew up with, the wood and metal, and even cardstock kits. The pioneering plastic models, all the heritage that made model railroading the greatest hobby in the world.

Join us as we go back to those thrilling days of yesteryear.”

Maybe Don will post an undated version and put it in a file folder so we can direct inquirers to it in the future?

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2016 11:13 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] When does a train become vintage?

Hi Jim,

GREAT question, and one that I'm sure was generated at least partially in response to my remark to Bill's introduction when I wrote "I believe earlier Train Miniature would well be considered within the vintage time-frame we established here (which is still a bit vague sometimes)." Don (Dellmann) briefly outlined here a short while ago, what was to be considered "vintage," but even then a lot was left up in the air without being finalized/pin-pointed as to where a cut-off period would be. I do remember him including certain manufacturers as vintage, right up to 1970 or so -- or was it 1980?

I know what you mean about the automobile world and their threshold for a car to become an antique needing to be at least 25 years old (or more). Motor Vehicle Divisions in many (most? all?) states take this into consideration when a car approaches this age. One of my older cars, a 1993 Mercury Cougar, has been considered by my State (NJ) not to need to be presented for vehicle inspection any longer, as per a letter I received from the Agency several weeks ago with my registration renewal. This new auto registration will expire in May 2017, at which time this car will be 24 years old. At that time, I'll have the choice to renew its registration as is, or re-register it as an antique with "QQ" plates (tags). I don't consider this car any more of an antique than I do my 1949 Ford -- and I don't consider my '49 Ford an antique, but instead, a "Classic" car -- and the Mercury is more "modern" than anything else it could be categorized as. With this, I have to wonder how Sean considers his Mustang; antique or classic? In any case by this it can be seen that an automobile's age has little to do with the age of model trains.

.

I do believe that "vintage" as associated with model trains mainly refers to a certain time period and that it should be restricted primarily to that period, although it appears -- even from what Don stated -- that certain manufacturers may extend past the considered "vintage" time frame to slightly later years, as one set date for all does not appear to have been established. One large part of this period's cut-off date pertains to the particular craftsman construction style of the models produced falls under. By this, yes I would have to say that most (perhaps all?) manufacturers now off the vintage list would remain off the vintage list as "vintage" has nothing to do with increased age, as automobiles would. "Vintage" with H0 trains remains a certain time frame within the period that these models were produced. Additional years gone by has nothing to do with a model being "vintage" and will not change its more modern construction techniques.

The late ' 70's does not necessarily qualify as a general "vintage" cut off period, except as Don spelled out for us previously (and which I don't recall vividly enough to restate at this time). Again, I'm hoping he can clarify this further. While some Atlas/Roco stuff was made in the late ' 70's, I don't see this as being vintage for these models. With Lew English taking over Bill Bowser's "Bowser Manufacturing Co." in 1961, I still feel that it would remain to be considered as vintage at least up until 1970.  Part of this consideration is due to Bowser replacement parts -- even for a 1970 kit -- having been manufactured during that previous decade. To extend the date any further though would just not add to it being vintage. That some Bowser kits contained Penn Line frames only adds to those kits' vintage status. I remember buying two Bowser cast metal boiler Mountain kits around 1977, each kit having a warped cast Penn Line frame. I bought two new Mountain frames from Bowser (Lew English) and was send two cast metal Penn Line frames (not brass frames), yet I don't consider my kits bought in 1977 "vintage."

As for Athearn, while the end of the Hi F drive might be considered as the limit for vintage here, I would extend it into the first generation of geared locomotives (through 1968), which would then take in the 1600 Series of operating (operable) door reefers and the other rolling stock that was made during this period (up through early/mid '60's). There's a marked difference between the operable door moulded plastic reefers and any later ones. I would not consider and Athearn engines produced in the 1970's -- such as the ALCo PA's I bought in 1975 -- to be vintage. Of course, this is only my take on when models cease to be considered vintage, but when I was buying new Athearn locos in 1975, I was also buying "VINTAGE" equipment dating back another 20 to 25 years, and earlier.

As for Life Like and their vintage classification, while those models produced by Sol Kramer would be considered as such, especially because of their age, their particular construction style alone does not necessarily catagorize them as vintage, nor should newer similar versions of Life Like models be considered as vintage only because of them being knock-offs. Ye Old Huff & Puff reproduced many earlier lines in the 1980's but they don't qualify as vintage. In some areas of manufacture, there's a thin line between what's actually vintage and what's still collectible. Walthers reproduced Silver Streak, Ulrich and other lines they bought out, starting in the early 1970's. Many of them even carry the original car side numbers of their predecessor manufacturers. Once built, it's hard to tell them apart from the original manufacturers; models, yet they are not vintage. Pacific HO is vintage, Ulrich is vintage. But not Walthers' reproductions of the same. This does not take away from them though; I have practically everything that Walthers made as reproductions of earlier manufacturers. While I have the original Ulrich line complete, I don't have all of the original Pacific HO/Silver Streak and am glad to have been able to fill in with Walthers kits. The construction methods of these kits are the same craftsman style with the same materials.

Just touching on Train Miniature for a few minutes, this line only started in 1968, yet I feel that they should be considered as vintage when referring to their first manufacturing in California. When they became Train Miniature of Illinois, even while they were similar, I don't seen them as being vintage at this late date, and it becomes a stretch even to consider them as such right up until the move to Illinois.

In general, we can all fall back on the early all-metal, wood & metal and wood models from pre-War up through early post-War and the subsequent decades as certainly being vintage without question. It's where the gray line of "newer" non-vintage starts that's still vague to a lot of members as it can vary with manufacturers.

Ray Wetzel



In a message dated 5/4/2016 6:50:26 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Hey Ray and all,

In the car world, it's an antique at 25 years old. But it's still hard
to call a 1990 Chevy and antigue, let alone a classic. (Some will
disagree, but they still seem like modern cars).

When do we move the clock forward on what is vintage?

As an example, it seems like the early Atlas/Roco stuff would not
qualify but some was made in the late 70's. I can't seem to get it in my
mind that it is 'antique', even though it's over 35 years old at this
point. At what point is Athearn NOT vintage? After rubber band drive?
Some version of their drive train? A time cut off? When does Bowser
become modern - when they ran out of original Penn Line frames (and
switched to brass)?

Are any manufacturers off the list forever and for what reasons? If a
new manufacturer picked up older tooling and continued to produce, is it
vintage (Life Like for example, in various incarnations in the 60's and
70's).

Guys - any thoughts?

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25365	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 5/5/2016
Subject: Re: Hello I am a new member

That's what many people outside of the hobby want to believe. All the more reason why we need to use terms like "operate" and "model" so that it gets drummed into them that we don't just play with toys < g >.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 5/5/2016 2:38:43 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

My wife says that I play with my toys.

Brad Smith

Sent from Brad's iPod

On May 4, 2016, at 6:12 PM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Certainly, we never "play" with our trains. Then too, we never "run" them -- we OPERATE them. And then, they're not just "trains," they're MODELS -- and scale models, to boot.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 5/4/2016 7:04:38 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

The key word is “old” which usually means you don’t have to give a rat’s derriere what anyone else thinks.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Windows Mail

From: corlissbs@... [vintageHO]
Sent: ‎Wednesday‎, ‎May‎ ‎4‎, ‎2016 ‎3‎:‎29‎ ‎PM
To: corlissbs@... [vintageHO]

On 5/05/2016 04:50, ckinzer@... [vintageHO] wrote:
> I suspect many of us are a “doddering old fool who plays with toys.” Can you get a bumper sticker for that?
> Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Never tell them you play with or have 'toys'. My explanation is that 'I
collect *antique* toys, particularly pre-war and postwar Japanese' which
adds a respectable aura and mystery to it.

Works!
--
Cheers.

Doug Harris - a doddering old 77, and still collecting - trains and years..
Auckland, New Zealand

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Group: vintageHO	Message: 25366	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 5/5/2016
Subject: Re: Hello I am a new member

Attachments :

I recent;y purchased the Atlas code 83 19 degree crossing and hope it does ok. The only locos that could stall are my 4 wheel switchers, but since that location is in an industry that is worked by a peddler freight, I most likely will not have a 4 wheel switcher working there. If I do need one, I have an 0-4-0 with a TCS Sound and Keep Alive decoder in it. If you pick it up off the track it continues to run for about 5 or 6 seconds. That is really cool. It should go right over the dead spots with no hesitation.

I have a few Atlas turnouts, but they are all relatively recent code 83 and appear to work ok, but again, these are in locations where the 0-4-0's don't go. Most of my turnouts are all hand built and have frogs powered via the Tortoise contacts. I also have some Shinohara turnouts and they are ok as well. I have not had any issues at all with the Tortoises running Atlas or Shinohara turnouts. I do fasten the turnouts down with about 6 to 8 judiciously placed spikes so they don't move. I think for the Atlas ones, I just use normal Atlas track nails. I also use Atlas code 83 in difficult to reach areas, since it is pretty much bullet proof and bends easily. I use ME code 83 in most visible areas, since it looks really good, but is a bit more finicky to work with. Whatever you do, never use the ME pre-weathered track. It is practically impossible to work.

Good luck and let us know how things go

Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of William Murray william.murray@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 4, 2016 12:26 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Hello I am a new member

On Tuesday, May 3, 2016 10:24 AM, "Victor Bitleris bitlerisvj@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Hi Bill,

Like some folks already said, welcome to VintageHO. It sounds like you have been in the hobby for some time. Which explains some of the vintage technology you are using. I am sure glad there are folks to help you out with this stuff so you can keep it going and have fun with it.

I was part of an operations group where about 25 or 30 of us operated once a month on a "Vintage" layout. It even had a "Vintage" DCC system, Wangrow, which was absorbed by NCE and is compatible with it. It had a mix of switch machines, including some Tortoises. It also used a whole LOT of relays for signaling as well. Long story short, after about 30 or so years of use, many of these "Vintage" components were starting to fail over the past 10 years. Many relays and switch machines were no longer available for replacement and we jury rigged some to keep the layout operating, but it was a losing battle. This was a very large layout and at any given time there were about 10 engineers plus yard workers operating locomotives on 12 hour (fast clock) shifts. Anyway, the owner, as well as the layout were aging at the same time and we had to shut it down last October. The layout is being torn down now.

I learned many things on my own the hard way and several others from this layout.

I hope your relays and switch machines hold out better than my experience shows. Maybe they will, because the wear and tear is directly related to how much use the stuff gets.

I started out with Atlas switch machines at first about 30 years ago, but never did like them. They really did not work very well and they looked obvious on top of the layout next to the turnout. Then Atlas came out with the under the table switch machines and I bought several. These were even less reliable. I then went to Rix switch machines and found them full of headaches, but somewhat better than Atlas, if you used Rix Rax mounts. I then went to dual coil machines like NJ International, Kemtron, or Tenshodo. While not prefect, the worked pretty well and did have built in contacts for frog powering and indicating. Eventually, I found out about Tortoise Switch machines shortly after converting to DCC and thought I went to Heaven. Tortoise have two sets of built in contacts, use VERY little current and work all the time, every time. No need for relays and external contacts and no special circuitry and logic as in servos which some folks use. Yeah, I keep hearing about expense, BUT when you buy them by the dozen, they come out to about $13.75 each, but no need for any fancy relays or power supplies and boosters. A 1 amp 12 volt power supply will power 65 Tortoises.

I don't suggest at all to change out such a large amount of equipment you have now, but I am sure that going under the layout to repair this stuff will get old. But, you may wish to consider changing out the old stuff when it does fail to something more reliable. That is what I did. I still have some dual coil switch machines, but have replaced many others with Tortoises due to attrition.

Good luck and regards, Vic B.

Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of William Murray william.murray@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 3, 2016 12:08 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Hello I am a new member

The reason I use so many relays...... every turnout needs a powered frog and a signal. Converging turnouts also need a track section in front of the points that is powered off when a turnout is set to turn. And when using 3 way signals on a double crossover another relay for each line for more signal work. I use AC for signals and track DC for all the other functions. Oh yes, when multiple converging turnouts are back to back we need relays wired in series to make sure the safety track is good for all turnouts. It can get complex.

On Monday, May 2, 2016 7:21 PM, "'Chuck Higdon' vze5crrw1@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Hi Bill,

I had this problem in the past and more AMPs helps solve the issue. Definitely do not go to a lighter wire, as that can be part of the problem. Last month we ran a second 14GA common wire to the buttons and that solved the problem we had in one area. The lighter the wire the greater the resistance and less amps are delivered to the devices.

I run 14 GA bus line around the layout and tie all the commons to the one side and tap off for the buttons along the edge of my layout. I now have the buttons close to the turnouts because I use wireless control, so no big panel with the track diagram for switching tracks.

Take care,

Chuck

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Monday, May 2, 2016 2:03 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Hello I am a new member

OK I see some of the members here also belong to the cast iron loco group as well. I have 50 some relays connected to Atlas turnouts. Some have one button powering one turnout and one relay.Others have one button powering 2 turnouts and 3 relays. My problem is that some of these, and not always the bigger groupings, have trouble getting off and powering everybody correctly. I do have the most expensive CDU I could find, but it can't seem to correct the problem. I use heavy duty wire from control panel to every device. I am thinking some of my relays may not be suitable for work in the bigger circuits (they all test ok when tested alone) or that maybe I should try lighter wire at the very end, that is to the relays themselves. Anyway, ever have any experience like this ?? Thanks. BTW all my buttons, turnouts and relays are Atlas.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25367	From: Bob Macklin	Date: 5/5/2016
Subject: Re: When does a train become vintage?

My first locomotive was a Varney Dockside in 1948. Back in the 80's I found a couple of original Docksides in a hobby shop in Tucson I bought for $15 each.

But when I retired in 2000 with no place to run trains I sold most of my collection. All the Docksides went.

Recently I got a 1950's Dockside on eBay that appears to be about as NIB as you will probably find. It was assembled but appeared to be never run. The flashing had not even been removed from the castings.

I have been trying to collect more early Docksides to use to make good running units. I'm even using the 1960 Docksides with the plastic shells.

I have also been buying 1950 vintage Varney car kits. Preferably unassembled. Nothing with the plastic shells. I'm looking at some of the earlier kits with the old cardboard sides. I've just lost interest in the modern stuff.

I'm also restoring some of the early Mantua Shifters and Boosters.

When I sold my train stuff in 2000 I sold a Varney Casey Jones I bought in 1959. I wish I had it now. I've been looking for a good one on eBay that I can afford.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: 'Donald R. Staton' chpln1@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2016 12:05 PM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] When does a train become vintage?

Thanks Don...
Since vintage is what most of us are, at least according to age, we seem to still have that great attachment to the equipment we started with. My first operating locomotive was Athearn HI-F... My first big steam loco was built from a Mantua Mike chassis I bought and put into a Hobbyline dummy Berk kit... And with all I have owned since, I still have those locos and they still operate. Though a lot of older stuff has come and gone through my stuff, and a lot of it I would like to see and own again, I am more attached to model trains than ever and just made some very good parts buys from Sean on Ebay. That purchase will keep me going for a long time yet before I get them all put into use.

Thanks for starting and maintaining this group.

Happy railroading...
Don Staton in VA
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

On 5/4/2016 2:47 PM, Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... [vintageHO] wrote:

When I started the group, I considered the cut-off date to be about 1960. Since then it's evolved more into a "style" of modelling, rather than a hard and fast date.

The wood and metal kits, even some of the early plastic. Companies like Quality Craft and Ambroid made this type of kit into the 70's, Mainline, silver streak, LW, live on today in the form of "ye olde Huff 'n puff" (sp?). The availability of scratchbuilding supplies. Even the idea of "good" paint (NOT acrylics) and deals that you just can't get anymore.

What I'd rather not see is reproductions, unless it may be to fabricate a part to complete an otherwise "vintage" model (sorry Mike), major upgrades of locomotives (I turn a blind eye to remotering, but if you put DCC in it, don't tell me! or ANYTHING made in China

The real thing I was more concerned about was this was NOT to be a group about strictly collecting. The whole idea was that we RAN our models.

I don't know if this helps or not.

Don

Don Dellmann Contact me at: don.dellmann@... See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

On 5/4/2016 11:41 AM, ckinzer@... [vintageHO] wrote:

I guess “vintage” is necessarily a relative term.

Today’s detailed injected molded electronics laden offerings may be vintage to a future Jetson family member. The notion of having to machine metal dies may become rather quaint.

Perhaps we need to think in terms of “ages”. Such as the “scratch age” that might arguably be the first.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Windows Mail

From: corlissbs@... [vintageHO]
Sent: ‎Wednesday‎, ‎May‎ ‎4‎, ‎2016 ‎9‎:‎12‎ ‎AM
To: corlissbs@... [vintageHO]

Hi Jim,

GREAT question, and one that I'm sure was generated at least partially in response to my remark to Bill's introduction when I wrote "I believe earlier Train Miniature would well be considered within the vintage time-frame we established here (which is still a bit vague sometimes)." Don (Dellmann) briefly outlined here a short while ago, what was to be considered "vintage," but even then a lot was left up in the air without being finalized/pin-pointed as to where a cut-off period would be. I do remember him including certain manufacturers as vintage, right up to 1970 or so -- or was it 1980?

I know what you mean about the automobile world and their threshold for a car to become an antique needing to be at least 25 years old (or more). Motor Vehicle Divisions in many (most? all?) states take this into consideration when a car approaches this age. One of my older cars, a 1993 Mercury Cougar, has been considered by my State (NJ) not to need to be presented for vehicle inspection any longer, as per a letter I received from the Agency several weeks ago with my registration renewal. This new auto registration will expire in May 2017, at which time this car will be 24 years old. At that time, I'll have the choice to renew its registration as is, or re-register it as an antique with "QQ" plates (tags). I don't consider this car any more of an antique than I do my 1949 Ford -- and I don't consider my '49 Ford an antique, but instead, a "Classic" car -- and the Mercury is more "modern" than anything else it could be categorized as. With this, I have to wonder how Sean considers his Mustang; antique or classic? In any case by this it can be seen that an automobile's age has little to do with the age of model trains.

.

I do believe that "vintage" as associated with model trains mainly refers to a certain time period and that it should be restricted primarily to that period, although it appears -- even from what Don stated -- that certain manufacturers may extend past the considered "vintage" time frame to slightly later years, as one set date for all does not appear to have been established. One large part of this period's cut-off date pertains to the particular craftsman construction style of the models produced falls under. By this, yes I would have to say that most (perhaps all?) manufacturers now off the vintage list would remain off the vintage list as "vintage" has nothing to do with increased age, as automobiles would. "Vintage" with H0 trains remains a certain time frame within the period that these models were produced. Additional years gone by has nothing to do with a model being "vintage" and will not change its more modern construction techniques.

The late ' 70's does not necessarily qualify as a general "vintage" cut off period, except as Don spelled out for us previously (and which I don't recall vividly enough to restate at this time). Again, I'm hoping he can clarify this further. While some Atlas/Roco stuff was made in the late ' 70's, I don't see this as being vintage for these models. With Lew English taking over Bill Bowser's "Bowser Manufacturing Co." in 1961, I still feel that it would remain to be considered as vintage at least up until 1970.  Part of this consideration is due to Bowser replacement parts -- even for a 1970 kit -- having been manufactured during that previous decade. To extend the date any further though would just not add to it being vintage. That some Bowser kits contained Penn Line frames only adds to those kits' vintage status. I remember buying two Bowser cast metal boiler Mountain kits around 1977, each kit having a warped cast Penn Line frame. I bought two new Mountain frames from Bowser (Lew English) and was send two cast metal Penn Line frames (not brass frames), yet I don't consider my kits bought in 1977 "vintage."

As for Athearn, while the end of the Hi F drive might be considered as the limit for vintage here, I would extend it into the first generation of geared locomotives (through 1968), which would then take in the 1600 Series of operating (operable) door reefers and the other rolling stock that was made during this period (up through early/mid '60's). There's a marked difference between the operable door moulded plastic reefers and any later ones. I would not consider and Athearn engines produced in the 1970's -- such as the ALCo PA's I bought in 1975 -- to be vintage. Of course, this is only my take on when models cease to be considered vintage, but when I was buying new Athearn locos in 1975, I was also buying "VINTAGE" equipment dating back another 20 to 25 years, and earlier.

As for Life Like and their vintage classification, while those models produced by Sol Kramer would be considered as such, especially because of their age, their particular construction style alone does not necessarily catagorize them as vintage, nor should newer similar versions of Life Like models be considered as vintage only because of them being knock-offs. Ye Old Huff & Puff reproduced many earlier lines in the 1980's but they don't qualify as vintage. In some areas of manufacture, there's a thin line between what's actually vintage and what's still collectible. Walthers reproduced Silver Streak, Ulrich and other lines they bought out, starting in the early 1970's. Many of them even carry the original car side numbers of their predecessor manufacturers. Once built, it's hard to tell them apart from the original manufacturers; models, yet they are not vintage. Pacific HO is vintage, Ulrich is vintage. But not Walthers' reproductions of the same. This does not take away from them though; I have practically everything that Walthers made as reproductions of earlier manufacturers. While I have the original Ulrich line complete, I don't have all of the original Pacific HO/Silver Streak and am glad to have been able to fill in with Walthers kits. The construction methods of these kits are the same craftsman style with the same materials.

Just touching on Train Miniature for a few minutes, this line only started in 1968, yet I feel that they should be considered as vintage when referring to their first manufacturing in California. When they became Train Miniature of Illinois, even while they were similar, I don't seen them as being vintage at this late date, and it becomes a stretch even to consider them as such right up until the move to Illinois.

In general, we can all fall back on the early all-metal, wood & metal and wood models from pre-War up through early post-War and the subsequent decades as certainly being vintage without question. It's where the gray line of "newer" non-vintage starts that's still vague to a lot of members as it can vary with manufacturers.

Ray Wetzel



In a message dated 5/4/2016 6:50:26 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Hey Ray and all,

In the car world, it's an antique at 25 years old. But it's still hard
to call a 1990 Chevy and antigue, let alone a classic. (Some will
disagree, but they still seem like modern cars).

When do we move the clock forward on what is vintage?

As an example, it seems like the early Atlas/Roco stuff would not
qualify but some was made in the late 70's. I can't seem to get it in my
mind that it is 'antique', even though it's over 35 years old at this
point. At what point is Athearn NOT vintage? After rubber band drive?
Some version of their drive train? A time cut off? When does Bowser
become modern - when they ran out of original Penn Line frames (and
switched to brass)?

Are any manufacturers off the list forever and for what reasons? If a
new manufacturer picked up older tooling and continued to produce, is it
vintage (Life Like for example, in various incarnations in the 60's and
70's).

Guys - any thoughts?

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25368	From: chfengr.elkhornforge	Date: 5/5/2016
Subject: Re: When does a train become vintage?

Another way to look at it - Like I sorta suggested, antique and vintage are much in the eye of the individual. I don't quite know how you can possibly define them to specific calendar periods for most cultural purposes.
The wine industry has a vintage 2015 and will be expected to have a next one for 2016.
I think vintage modeling should be most about modeling a specific period. Pick a year and then vintage becomes anything that would have been available for building in that year. And like wines, some vintages are better than others.

This suggests the majority of one's modeling materials, kits, RTR's and techniques would be what was available to the modeler a selected year and before. Realistically the earlier you get before that year the fewer the proportion of earlier produced designs, if not models in the scene. (but nobody here will be counting). This kinda represents what you might have been able to buy at the local hobby shop or by mail or internet order, as the year might suggest. Also a few representatives of dad's , grandpa's or what some old friend or eBay find might contribute. Mine would be a lead cast boiler Roundhouse 0-6-0 from one of Cliff Grandt's earliest lots and a pile of Baker couplers, all from prowling eBay.
About Silver Streak. I bought my first of their kits before1954. They were the Cadillac of HO kits (Ambroid was the "Rolls Royce"; but most of us were not skilled enough to tackle one of those.) I bought my first Central Valley HOn3 trucks in 1953. Their HO trucks were already the best of the best. I bought my first plastic kits, a Varney gondola and a covered hopper around 1952. Still high class examples of injection molding even if the under body detailing and brake wheels were a bit crude. Die cast locomotives were predominant in the 1950's. With a little attention to tuning gear mesh and electrical pickups they ran fine and pulled more cars than you could fit on most layouts. Even with steel rails on Atlas fiber tie strips. Lightweight mass produced plastic models ruined all that and set us back a generation.
OK. off topic a bit. But I can't resist reminiscing. …......... Ed Weldon (still older than dirt)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25369	From: John Hagen	Date: 5/5/2016
Subject: Re: When does a train become vintage?

My point was that vintage to me is not necessarily vintage to you.

As I said defining it is likely an improbable accomplishment.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2016 1:41 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] When does a train become vintage?

Ray Wetzel

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Group: vintageHO	Message: 25370	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 5/5/2016
Subject: Re: When does a train become vintage?

Attachments :

There are plenty of lesser price locos for those starting out to buy. Just as there are more expensive ones too. I remember it took a while to save up for my AHM Hudson at $39.95 from my LHS, but I did get it. The younger people just need the exposure to know the hobby exists. The train shows are one venue and they have lots of kids, so it will do alright. They also need the parents to help them build their first 4x8 layout. Today, that might be the bigger issue.

Take care,

Chuck

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Thursday, May 5, 2016 2:32 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] When does a train become vintage?

While your take on this seems right on, in the general application, there are vintage locomotives that are far from being reasonably priced and which sometimes can exceed your $500 example. Unless you're real lucky, any of the formed brass Mantua steam engines can easily be priced at $250 or more, with the pre-War Consolidation costing near if not equal to this $500 figure -- and of course they're all well within being vintage. You couldn't touch a Penn Line Crusader for only $500 as most of the very few decent ones that appeared on eBay over the last few years went between $1200 and $1400. This loco is definitely vintage no matter how you slice it. Those who were able to get one of these gems at these prices consider themselves fortunate as there were only 200 of them made. Consider a Winton C&O Allegheny or a Schrader New Haven EP4, too. A George Stock PRR GG-1 is exceptionally heavy, not only in its cast bronze weight but in the money it would take to purchase one (around $700 -- minimum).

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 5/5/2016 10:36:24 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Here is my thought on vintage: If I can afford it, it is vintage. A BLI engine is new, and it is expensive. (Who would pay $500 for an engine?). Therefore it is doubly disqualified. A Mantua pacific from the 80's is too new to be vintage, but it is built the same as when it was vintage. So what does that make it? In my book, vintage, but only if I could afford it.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25371	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 5/5/2016
Subject: Re: When does a train become vintage?

Well, that's certainly one way of looking at this < g

>. Engines today are priced out of sight, and far to high for the

average teen ager (or younger modeler). It doesn't look as though the new prospective modelers today can afford it, nor can it be assured that the hobby can continue with the younger generation when they're priced out of it.

While your take on this seems right on, in the general application, there are vintage locomotives that are far from being reasonably priced and which sometimes can exceed your $500 example. Unless you're real lucky, any of the formed brass Mantua steam engines can easily be priced at $250 or more, with the pre-War Consolidation costing near if not equal to this $500 figure -- and of course they're all well within being vintage. You couldn't touch a Penn Line Crusader for only $500 as most of the very few decent ones that appeared on eBay over the last few years went between $1200 and $1400. This loco is definitely vintage no matter how you slice it. Those who were able to get one of these gems at these prices consider themselves fortunate as there were only 200 of them made. Consider a Winton C&O Allegheny or a Schrader New Haven EP4, too. A George Stock PRR GG-1 is exceptionally heavy, not only in its cast bronze weight but in the money it would take to purchase one (around $700 -- minimum).

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 5/5/2016 10:36:24 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Here is my thought on vintage: If I can afford it, it is vintage. A BLI engine is new, and it is expensive. (Who would pay $500 for an engine?). Therefore it is doubly disqualified. A Mantua pacific from the 80's is too new to be vintage, but it is built the same as when it was vintage. So what does that make it? In my book, vintage, but only if I could afford it.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25372	From: trainliker	Date: 5/5/2016
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: When does a train become vintage?

I could see even more of a breakdown of what you call antique.

Perhaps the earliest with sand cast locomotives and do your own machining/drilling. Paper sides on cars. 6 volt motors.

Then diecast locomotives. Kits with prepainted and lettered sides. Some kits diecast.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Windows Mail

From: corlissbs@... [vintageHO]
Sent: ‎Wednesday‎, ‎May‎ ‎4‎, ‎2016 ‎7‎:‎32‎ ‎PM
To: corlissbs@... [vintageHO]

On 5/4/2016 8:53 PM, Ed Weldon 23.weldon@... [vintageHO] wrote:
> Antique is older than me (one who claims to be older than dirt; but lies)
> Vintage is anything designed before I was 25 and good enough to be saved
> from the garbage dump (what we did before we called them landfills)

I think I might follow something like this:

Antique - first generation models, mostly craftsman kits
Athearn metal, etc

Vintage - second generation, early plastic and advanced craftsman kits
Athearn blue box, Globe, Varney, and other basic plastic kits up through
the mid-'90s, Fine Scale Miniatures, Ambroid, Sheepscot, La Belle

Modern - third generation highly detailed kits and RTR, DCC era
Athearn Genesis, Proto 2000, Kadee, Red Caboose, Intermountain, etc.

Since I am not sure when various companies began and ended
production I'm not sure whether some, like Central Valley and Silver
Streak, would be antique or vintage.

--

Rick Jones

"Milhouse, we're living in the age of cooties."
-Bart Simpson, "The Simpsons"

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25373	From: William Murray	Date: 5/5/2016
Subject: Re: Hello I am a new member

Yes I did put in jumpers, but my point was that if it was a quality product it shouldn't have been neccessary. But I will not forgive them for their crossings, which are beyond garbage. I bought 4 19 degree crossings and about half of my locos either stall or slow down on them. When comparing them to the Peco replacements, I see the gaps on the Atlas are about twice that of the Peco. Talking to them on the phone is a waste, they are completely ignorant about their own products. They ended up asking me questions about how their relays worked !!

On Thursday, May 5, 2016 9:41 AM, "'Chuck Higdon' vze5crrw1@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

With the tracks losing power it is in the plate the points pivot over. Mostly in the winter when the wood shrinks because it dries out some. Putting jumpers in from the running rails to the inside rails solves the issue, but it is extra work you did not want to have to do. But once done, it is done. Or bigger gaps between the rails on the switch and joining tracks. Or a bigger nail to hold the switch flat.

Take care,
Chuck

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Wednesday, May 4, 2016 12:26 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Hello I am a new member

Thanks for your reply. Yes Atlas switch's are ugly and non-prototype. I use them because everything else cost too damn much. Could these tortoise machines work on an Atlas turnout? Ain't no way I could replace all my turnouts and machines. My pension isn't that big. I am becoming increasingly disillusioned with Atlas. I have noticed some of my turnouts have lost their internal connection and the part between the frog and the end is dead. But my biggest pita was with my 19 degree crossings. I had four and many of my locos stalled on them. I replaced them with Peco crossings and the problem went away. And Atlas customer service is the pits! I know more about how their relays work than they do !! (I am not exaggerating). I find my self replacing some of my Atlas turnouts when there is no apparent damage. They just poop out internally. And their 280 series of turnouts are garbage. They have no screwdown tabs and the machines fly off the ties when you power them!! I like the old 260 series because them had metal frogs too. Anyway glad to hear from you.

On Tuesday, May 3, 2016 10:24 AM, "Victor Bitleris bitlerisvj@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Hi Bill,
Like some folks already said, welcome to VintageHO. It sounds like you have been in the hobby for some time. Which explains some of the vintage technology you are using. I am sure glad there are folks to help you out with this stuff so you can keep it going and have fun with it.
I was part of an operations group where about 25 or 30 of us operated once a month on a "Vintage" layout. It even had a "Vintage" DCC system, Wangrow, which was absorbed by NCE and is compatible with it. It had a mix of switch machines, including some Tortoises. It also used a whole LOT of relays for signaling as well. Long story short, after about 30 or so years of use, many of these "Vintage" components were starting to fail over the past 10 years. Many relays and switch machines were no longer available for replacement and we jury rigged some to keep the layout operating, but it was a losing battle. This was a very large layout and at any given time there were about 10 engineers plus yard workers operating locomotives on 12 hour (fast clock) shifts. Anyway, the owner, as well as the layout were aging at the same time and we had to shut it down last October. The layout is being torn down now.
I learned many things on my own the hard way and several others from this layout.
I hope your relays and switch machines hold out better than my experience shows. Maybe they will, because the wear and tear is directly related to how much use the stuff gets.
I started out with Atlas switch machines at first about 30 years ago, but never did like them. They really did not work very well and they looked obvious on top of the layout next to the turnout. Then Atlas came out with the under the table switch machines and I bought several. These were even less reliable. I then went to Rix switch machines and found them full of headaches, but somewhat better than Atlas, if you used Rix Rax mounts. I then went to dual coil machines like NJ International, Kemtron, or Tenshodo. While not prefect, the worked pretty well and did have built in contacts for frog powering and indicating. Eventually, I found out about Tortoise Switch machines shortly after converting to DCC and thought I went to Heaven. Tortoise have two sets of built in contacts, use VERY little current and work all the time, every time. No need for relays and external contacts and no special circuitry and logic as in servos which some folks use. Yeah, I keep hearing about expense, BUT when you buy them by the dozen, they come out to about $13.75 each, but no need for any fancy relays or power supplies and boosters. A 1 amp 12 volt power supply will power 65 Tortoises.
I don't suggest at all to change out such a large amount of equipment you have now, but I am sure that going under the layout to repair this stuff will get old. But, you may wish to consider changing out the old stuff when it does fail to something more reliable. That is what I did. I still have some dual coil switch machines, but have replaced many others with Tortoises due to attrition.
Good luck and regards, Vic B.

Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of William Murray william.murray@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 3, 2016 12:08 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Hello I am a new member

The reason I use so many relays...... every turnout needs a powered frog and a signal. Converging turnouts also need a track section in front of the points that is powered off when a turnout is set to turn. And when using 3 way signals on a double crossover another relay for each line for more signal work. I use AC for signals and track DC for all the other functions. Oh yes, when multiple converging turnouts are back to back we need relays wired in series to make sure the safety track is good for all turnouts. It can get complex.

On Monday, May 2, 2016 7:21 PM, "'Chuck Higdon' vze5crrw1@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Hi Bill,
I had this problem in the past and more AMPs helps solve the issue. Definitely do not go to a lighter wire, as that can be part of the problem. Last month we ran a second 14GA common wire to the buttons and that solved the problem we had in one area. The lighter the wire the greater the resistance and less amps are delivered to the devices.

I run 14 GA bus line around the layout and tie all the commons to the one side and tap off for the buttons along the edge of my layout. I now have the buttons close to the turnouts because I use wireless control, so no big panel with the track diagram for switching tracks.

Take care,
Chuck

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Monday, May 2, 2016 2:03 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Hello I am a new member

OK I see some of the members here also belong to the cast iron loco group as well. I have 50 some relays connected to Atlas turnouts. Some have one button powering one turnout and one relay.Others have one button powering 2 turnouts and 3 relays. My problem is that some of these, and not always the bigger groupings, have trouble getting off and powering everybody correctly. I do have the most expensive CDU I could find, but it can't seem to correct the problem. I use heavy duty wire from control panel to every device. I am thinking some of my relays may not be suitable for work in the bigger circuits (they all test ok when tested alone) or that maybe I should try lighter wire at the very end, that is to the relays themselves. Anyway, ever have any experience like this ?? Thanks. BTW all my buttons, turnouts and relays are Atlas.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25374	From: William Murray	Date: 5/5/2016
Subject: Re: When does a train become vintage?

after reading all of your comments on vintage, I guess I hardly qualify as a vintage modeler. I do have an Ulrich 40ft gondola I bought unbuilt and I built it and it is one of my favorites. Similarly, I have an Ambroid hart gondola and I wonder what the fuss about them was. While good looking, it is very flimsy. I have a few Varney cars, 2 boxcars and a tanker IIRC. Also a Kurtz IC reefer which frankly doesn't look as good as my Accurail IC reefer. Also a Silver Streak boxcar and a HO boxcar.I hope I am not commiting heresy here. I have a Varney 4-6-2 that can barely run. It is not on my roster, I got it in a lot sale, and I will probably sell it off. I guess some of my Mantua's would qualify. Two of them have those older motors that the boiler fits very snugly over. One of them is from the 80s, sold as "power drive", and the other from before the period that they had that small but worthy pitman type motor. Maybe someone of you guys can tell me when that would date from. And I have a 2-10-0 that is either a Bowser or a Pennline, but I don't know which. It has nothing whatever on it to identify it. My more recent Bowser 4-4-4-4 has the name stamped in the boiler. Some Mantua is labeled Tyco, and some of them are labeled both! My first loco was packaged in a Tyco empire builder train set. It is obviously a Mantua Mikado, identical to my other kit built Mantua Mikado except for lacking wheel bearings.

On Thursday, May 5, 2016 6:06 PM, "ckinzer@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

I could see even more of a breakdown of what you call antique.

Perhaps the earliest with sand cast locomotives and do your own machining/drilling. Paper sides on cars. 6 volt motors.

Then diecast locomotives. Kits with prepainted and lettered sides. Some kits diecast.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Windows Mail

From: corlissbs@... [vintageHO]
Sent: ‎Wednesday‎, ‎May‎ ‎4‎, ‎2016 ‎7‎:‎32‎ ‎PM
To: corlissbs@... [vintageHO]

On 5/4/2016 8:53 PM, Ed Weldon 23.weldon@... [vintageHO] wrote:
> Antique is older than me (one who claims to be older than dirt; but lies)
> Vintage is anything designed before I was 25 and good enough to be saved
> from the garbage dump (what we did before we called them landfills)

I think I might follow something like this:

Antique - first generation models, mostly craftsman kits
Athearn metal, etc

Vintage - second generation, early plastic and advanced craftsman kits
Athearn blue box, Globe, Varney, and other basic plastic kits up through
the mid-'90s, Fine Scale Miniatures, Ambroid, Sheepscot, La Belle

Modern - third generation highly detailed kits and RTR, DCC era
Athearn Genesis, Proto 2000, Kadee, Red Caboose, Intermountain, etc.

Since I am not sure when various companies began and ended
production I'm not sure whether some, like Central Valley and Silver
Streak, would be antique or vintage.

--

Rick Jones

"Milhouse, we're living in the age of cooties."
-Bart Simpson, "The Simpsons"

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25375	From: William Murray	Date: 5/5/2016
Subject: Re: Hello I am a new member

Well I don't know about you guys but I play with my toys.

On Thursday, May 5, 2016 1:45 PM, "eriepacific@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

That's what many people outside of the hobby want to believe. All the more reason why we need to use terms like "operate" and "model" so that it gets drummed into them that we don't just play with toys < g >.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 5/5/2016 2:38:43 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

My wife says that I play with my toys.

Brad Smith

Sent from Brad's iPod

On May 4, 2016, at 6:12 PM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Certainly, we never "play" with our trains. Then too, we never "run" them -- we OPERATE them. And then, they're not just "trains," they're MODELS -- and scale models, to boot.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 5/4/2016 7:04:38 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

The key word is “old” which usually means you don’t have to give a rat’s derriere what anyone else thinks.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Windows Mail

From: corlissbs@... [vintageHO]
Sent: ‎Wednesday‎, ‎May‎ ‎4‎, ‎2016 ‎3‎:‎29‎ ‎PM
To: corlissbs@... [vintageHO]

On 5/05/2016 04:50, ckinzer@... [vintageHO] wrote:
> I suspect many of us are a “doddering old fool who plays with toys.” Can you get a bumper sticker for that?
> Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Never tell them you play with or have 'toys'. My explanation is that 'I
collect *antique* toys, particularly pre-war and postwar Japanese' which
adds a respectable aura and mystery to it.

Works!
--
Cheers.

Doug Harris - a doddering old 77, and still collecting - trains and years..
Auckland, New Zealand

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Group: vintageHO	Message: 25376	From: Roger Whiffin	Date: 5/5/2016
Subject: Re: When does a train become vintage?

Going right back to the original subject line - and No arguments please.

Q/ When does a train become vintage?

A/ When you look at one and remember them being brand-new in the shops when you were a kid!

RogerW

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25377	From: trainliker	Date: 5/5/2016
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] When does a train become vintage?

I recently sold an unbuilt Varney Dockside on eBay:

This will give you an idea of what an unmolested kit looks like.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Windows Mail

From: corlissbs@... [vintageHO]
Sent: ‎Thursday‎, ‎May‎ ‎5‎, ‎2016 ‎7‎:‎35‎ ‎AM
To: corlissbs@... [vintageHO]

My first locomotive was a Varney Dockside in 1948. Back in the 80's I found a couple of original Docksides in a hobby shop in Tucson I bought for $15 each.

But when I retired in 2000 with no place to run trains I sold most of my collection. All the Docksides went.

I have been trying to collect more early Docksides to use to make good running units. I'm even using the 1960 Docksides with the plastic shells.

I'm also restoring some of the early Mantua Shifters and Boosters.

When I sold my train stuff in 2000 I sold a Varney Casey Jones I bought in 1959. I wish I had it now. I've been looking for a good one on eBay that I can afford.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: 'Donald R. Staton' chpln1@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2016 12:05 PM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] When does a train become vintage?

Thanks Don...
Since vintage is what most of us are, at least according to age, we seem to still have that great attachment to the equipment we started with. My first operating locomotive was Athearn HI-F... My first big steam loco was built from a Mantua Mike chassis I bought and put into a Hobbyline dummy Berk kit... And with all I have owned since, I still have those locos and they still operate. Though a lot of older stuff has come and gone through my stuff, and a lot of it I would like to see and own again, I am more attached to model trains than ever and just made some very good parts buys from Sean on Ebay. That purchase will keep me going for a long time yet before I get them all put into use.

Thanks for starting and maintaining this group.

Happy railroading...
Don Staton in VA
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

On 5/4/2016 2:47 PM, Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... [vintageHO] wrote:

When I started the group, I considered the cut-off date to be about 1960. Since then it's evolved more into a "style" of modelling, rather than a hard and fast date.

The wood and metal kits, even some of the early plastic. Companies like Quality Craft and Ambroid made this type of kit into the 70's, Mainline, silver streak, LW, live on today in the form of "ye olde Huff 'n puff" (sp?). The availability of scratchbuilding supplies. Even the idea of "good" paint (NOT acrylics) and deals that you just can't get anymore.

What I'd rather not see is reproductions, unless it may be to fabricate a part to complete an otherwise "vintage" model (sorry Mike), major upgrades of locomotives (I turn a blind eye to remotering, but if you put DCC in it, don't tell me! or ANYTHING made in China

The real thing I was more concerned about was this was NOT to be a group about strictly collecting. The whole idea was that we RAN our models.

I don't know if this helps or not.

Don

Don Dellmann Contact me at: don.dellmann@... See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

On 5/4/2016 11:41 AM, ckinzer@... [vintageHO] wrote:

I guess “vintage” is necessarily a relative term.

Today’s detailed injected molded electronics laden offerings may be vintage to a future Jetson family member. The notion of having to machine metal dies may become rather quaint.

Perhaps we need to think in terms of “ages”. Such as the “scratch age” that might arguably be the first.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Windows Mail

From: corlissbs@... [vintageHO]
Sent: ‎Wednesday‎, ‎May‎ ‎4‎, ‎2016 ‎9‎:‎12‎ ‎AM
To: corlissbs@... [vintageHO]

Hi Jim,

GREAT question, and one that I'm sure was generated at least partially in response to my remark to Bill's introduction when I wrote "I believe earlier Train Miniature would well be considered within the vintage time-frame we established here (which is still a bit vague sometimes)." Don (Dellmann) briefly outlined here a short while ago, what was to be considered "vintage," but even then a lot was left up in the air without being finalized/pin-pointed as to where a cut-off period would be. I do remember him including certain manufacturers as vintage, right up to 1970 or so -- or was it 1980?

I know what you mean about the automobile world and their threshold for a car to become an antique needing to be at least 25 years old (or more). Motor Vehicle Divisions in many (most? all?) states take this into consideration when a car approaches this age. One of my older cars, a 1993 Mercury Cougar, has been considered by my State (NJ) not to need to be presented for vehicle inspection any longer, as per a letter I received from the Agency several weeks ago with my registration renewal. This new auto registration will expire in May 2017, at which time this car will be 24 years old. At that time, I'll have the choice to renew its registration as is, or re-register it as an antique with "QQ" plates (tags). I don't consider this car any more of an antique than I do my 1949 Ford -- and I don't consider my '49 Ford an antique, but instead, a "Classic" car -- and the Mercury is more "modern" than anything else it could be categorized as. With this, I have to wonder how Sean considers his Mustang; antique or classic? In any case by this it can be seen that an automobile's age has little to do with the age of model trains.

.

I do believe that "vintage" as associated with model trains mainly refers to a certain time period and that it should be restricted primarily to that period, although it appears -- even from what Don stated -- that certain manufacturers may extend past the considered "vintage" time frame to slightly later years, as one set date for all does not appear to have been established. One large part of this period's cut-off date pertains to the particular craftsman construction style of the models produced falls under. By this, yes I would have to say that most (perhaps all?) manufacturers now off the vintage list would remain off the vintage list as "vintage" has nothing to do with increased age, as automobiles would. "Vintage" with H0 trains remains a certain time frame within the period that these models were produced. Additional years gone by has nothing to do with a model being "vintage" and will not change its more modern construction techniques.

The late ' 70's does not necessarily qualify as a general "vintage" cut off period, except as Don spelled out for us previously (and which I don't recall vividly enough to restate at this time). Again, I'm hoping he can clarify this further. While some Atlas/Roco stuff was made in the late ' 70's, I don't see this as being vintage for these models. With Lew English taking over Bill Bowser's "Bowser Manufacturing Co." in 1961, I still feel that it would remain to be considered as vintage at least up until 1970.  Part of this consideration is due to Bowser replacement parts -- even for a 1970 kit -- having been manufactured during that previous decade. To extend the date any further though would just not add to it being vintage. That some Bowser kits contained Penn Line frames only adds to those kits' vintage status. I remember buying two Bowser cast metal boiler Mountain kits around 1977, each kit having a warped cast Penn Line frame. I bought two new Mountain frames from Bowser (Lew English) and was send two cast metal Penn Line frames (not brass frames), yet I don't consider my kits bought in 1977 "vintage."

As for Athearn, while the end of the Hi F drive might be considered as the limit for vintage here, I would extend it into the first generation of geared locomotives (through 1968), which would then take in the 1600 Series of operating (operable) door reefers and the other rolling stock that was made during this period (up through early/mid '60's). There's a marked difference between the operable door moulded plastic reefers and any later ones. I would not consider and Athearn engines produced in the 1970's -- such as the ALCo PA's I bought in 1975 -- to be vintage. Of course, this is only my take on when models cease to be considered vintage, but when I was buying new Athearn locos in 1975, I was also buying "VINTAGE" equipment dating back another 20 to 25 years, and earlier.

As for Life Like and their vintage classification, while those models produced by Sol Kramer would be considered as such, especially because of their age, their particular construction style alone does not necessarily catagorize them as vintage, nor should newer similar versions of Life Like models be considered as vintage only because of them being knock-offs. Ye Old Huff & Puff reproduced many earlier lines in the 1980's but they don't qualify as vintage. In some areas of manufacture, there's a thin line between what's actually vintage and what's still collectible. Walthers reproduced Silver Streak, Ulrich and other lines they bought out, starting in the early 1970's. Many of them even carry the original car side numbers of their predecessor manufacturers. Once built, it's hard to tell them apart from the original manufacturers; models, yet they are not vintage. Pacific HO is vintage, Ulrich is vintage. But not Walthers' reproductions of the same. This does not take away from them though; I have practically everything that Walthers made as reproductions of earlier manufacturers. While I have the original Ulrich line complete, I don't have all of the original Pacific HO/Silver Streak and am glad to have been able to fill in with Walthers kits. The construction methods of these kits are the same craftsman style with the same materials.

Just touching on Train Miniature for a few minutes, this line only started in 1968, yet I feel that they should be considered as vintage when referring to their first manufacturing in California. When they became Train Miniature of Illinois, even while they were similar, I don't seen them as being vintage at this late date, and it becomes a stretch even to consider them as such right up until the move to Illinois.

In general, we can all fall back on the early all-metal, wood & metal and wood models from pre-War up through early post-War and the subsequent decades as certainly being vintage without question. It's where the gray line of "newer" non-vintage starts that's still vague to a lot of members as it can vary with manufacturers.

Ray Wetzel



In a message dated 5/4/2016 6:50:26 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Hey Ray and all,

In the car world, it's an antique at 25 years old. But it's still hard
to call a 1990 Chevy and antigue, let alone a classic. (Some will
disagree, but they still seem like modern cars).

When do we move the clock forward on what is vintage?

As an example, it seems like the early Atlas/Roco stuff would not
qualify but some was made in the late 70's. I can't seem to get it in my
mind that it is 'antique', even though it's over 35 years old at this
point. At what point is Athearn NOT vintage? After rubber band drive?
Some version of their drive train? A time cut off? When does Bowser
become modern - when they ran out of original Penn Line frames (and
switched to brass)?

Are any manufacturers off the list forever and for what reasons? If a
new manufacturer picked up older tooling and continued to produce, is it
vintage (Life Like for example, in various incarnations in the 60's and
70's).

Guys - any thoughts?

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25378	From: chfengr.elkhornforge	Date: 5/5/2016
Subject: Re: When does a train become vintage?

Rick - Like I sorta suggested, antique and vintage are much in the eye of the individual. I don't quite know how you can possibly define them to specific calendar periods for most cultural purposes.
The wine industry has a vintage 2015 and will be expected to have a next one for 2016.
I think vintage modeling should be most about modeling a specific period. Pick a year and then vintage becomes anything that would have been available for building in that year. And like wines, some vintages are better than others.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25379	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 5/5/2016
Subject: Re: Hello I am a new member

Attachments :

Ummm, well, when my wife asked what I did this afternoon, I told her I worked on the railroad. She said, oh, you played trains. I said I worked. I was laying track, etc. When I go to operating sessions as I will next Tuesday, she will say, I am playing trains. When I go to my friends house on the third Friday of the month to help build the layout and WORK, she says, oh, your playing trains. And when I go to our NMRA CPD13 meetings on the 4th Tuesday of the month, she says oh, your playing trains. I just can't win. It is really work, ....after retirement.

Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of William Murray william.murray@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 5, 2016 7:47 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Hello I am a new member

Well I don't know about you guys but I play with my toys.

On Thursday, May 5, 2016 1:45 PM, "eriepacific@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

That's what many people outside of the hobby want to believe. All the more reason why we need to use terms like "operate" and "model" so that it gets drummed into them that we don't just play with toys < g >.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 5/5/2016 2:38:43 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

My wife says that I play with my toys.

Brad Smith

Sent from Brad's iPod

On May 4, 2016, at 6:12 PM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Certainly, we never "play" with our trains. Then too, we never "run" them -- we OPERATE them. And then, they're not just "trains," they're MODELS -- and scale models, to boot.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 5/4/2016 7:04:38 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

The key word is “old” which usually means you don’t have to give a rat’s derriere what anyone else thinks.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Windows Mail

From: corlissbs@... [vintageHO]
Sent: ‎Wednesday‎, ‎May‎ ‎4‎, ‎2016 ‎3‎:‎29‎ ‎PM
To: corlissbs@... [vintageHO]

On 5/05/2016 04:50, ckinzer@... [vintageHO] wrote:
> I suspect many of us are a “doddering old fool who plays with toys.” Can you get a bumper sticker for that?
> Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Never tell them you play with or have 'toys'. My explanation is that 'I
collect *antique* toys, particularly pre-war and postwar Japanese' which
adds a respectable aura and mystery to it.

Works!
--
Cheers.

Doug Harris - a doddering old 77, and still collecting - trains and years..
Auckland, New Zealand

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Group: vintageHO	Message: 25380	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 5/5/2016
Subject: Re: When does a train become vintage?

Hi Ed,

Loved your post. I loved your reference to Silver Streak as Cadillac and Ambroid as Rolls Royce. I remember my first Silver Streak caboose. My older brother was with me to provide guidance, I was about 10 or 11 years old. I bought a few Athearn boxcars and flatcars. I needed a caboose for these to go behind the A and B Mantua cast metal Sharks we already had. The guy at the hobby shop recommended a Silver Streak Missouri Pacific caboose. I thought it was cool and the guy at the hobby shop figured after I built the Athearn cars, I should be able to tackle the Silver Streak caboose. HAH! That caboose almost killed the hobby for me. I am still not sure why, as I have been building stick and tissue model airplanes with no problems. I guess that the caboose never ended up looking like a real caboose. Later, I got an Athearn caboose and was very happy about that. Fats forward a few years and now I am in my early 20's and married with children. I went into a local hobby ( train store) shop and saw a Quality Craft kit for a triple decker auto carrier. I don't know how long it took, maybe 3 weeks, and I had a finished, BEAUTIFUL triple decker Santa Fe auto carrier that looked GOOD! I did it myself and was thrilled. I went back to that train store and bought an Ambroid Cushion Coil car and had the same experience. I was hooked from then on...even though I was really hooked before I was 6 or 7 years old.

BTW, I have built many of these craft kits as well as scratchbuilt cars since then, but I have quite an inventory of Vintage cars still to build.

Thanks for reminding me of what enjoy.

Regards, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of 23.weldon@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 4, 2016 11:32 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: When does a train become vintage?

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25381	From: Bob Macklin	Date: 5/5/2016
Subject: Re: When does a train become vintage?

Sorry I missed that one! But the near NIB I did get only cost me about $25!

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: ckinzer@... [vintageHO]

To: corlissbs@... [vintageHO]

Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2016 12:38 PM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] When does a train become vintage?

I recently sold an unbuilt Varney Dockside on eBay:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Varney-Vintage-Diecast-Dockside-0-4-0-steam-engine-kit-Unbuilt-Original-Box-/322084286895?hash=item4afdb831af:g:JC4AAOSwZ8ZW~yWu

This will give you an idea of what an unmolested kit looks like.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Windows Mail

From: corlissbs@... [vintageHO]
Sent: ‎Thursday‎, ‎May‎ ‎5‎, ‎2016 ‎7‎:‎35‎ ‎AM
To: corlissbs@... [vintageHO]

My first locomotive was a Varney Dockside in 1948. Back in the 80's I found a couple of original Docksides in a hobby shop in Tucson I bought for $15 each.

But when I retired in 2000 with no place to run trains I sold most of my collection. All the Docksides went.

Recently I got a 1950's Dockside on eBay that appears to be about as NIB as you will probably find. It was assembled but appeared to be never run. The flashing had not even been removed from the castings.

I have been trying to collect more early Docksides to use to make good running units. I'm even using the 1960 Docksides with the plastic shells.

I have also been buying 1950 vintage Varney car kits. Preferably unassembled. Nothing with the plastic shells. I'm looking at some of the earlier kits with the old cardboard sides. I've just lost interest in the modern stuff.

I'm also restoring some of the early Mantua Shifters and Boosters.

When I sold my train stuff in 2000 I sold a Varney Casey Jones I bought in 1959. I wish I had it now. I've been looking for a good one on eBay that I can afford.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: 'Donald R. Staton' chpln1@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2016 12:05 PM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] When does a train become vintage?

Thanks Don...
Since vintage is what most of us are, at least according to age, we seem to still have that great attachment to the equipment we started with. My first operating locomotive was Athearn HI-F... My first big steam loco was built from a Mantua Mike chassis I bought and put into a Hobbyline dummy Berk kit... And with all I have owned since, I still have those locos and they still operate. Though a lot of older stuff has come and gone through my stuff, and a lot of it I would like to see and own again, I am more attached to model trains than ever and just made some very good parts buys from Sean on Ebay. That purchase will keep me going for a long time yet before I get them all put into use.

Thanks for starting and maintaining this group.

Happy railroading...
Don Staton in VA
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

On 5/4/2016 2:47 PM, Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... [vintageHO] wrote:

When I started the group, I considered the cut-off date to be about 1960. Since then it's evolved more into a "style" of modelling, rather than a hard and fast date.

The wood and metal kits, even some of the early plastic. Companies like Quality Craft and Ambroid made this type of kit into the 70's, Mainline, silver streak, LW, live on today in the form of "ye olde Huff 'n puff" (sp?). The availability of scratchbuilding supplies. Even the idea of "good" paint (NOT acrylics) and deals that you just can't get anymore.

What I'd rather not see is reproductions, unless it may be to fabricate a part to complete an otherwise "vintage" model (sorry Mike), major upgrades of locomotives (I turn a blind eye to remotering, but if you put DCC in it, don't tell me! or ANYTHING made in China

The real thing I was more concerned about was this was NOT to be a group about strictly collecting. The whole idea was that we RAN our models.

I don't know if this helps or not.

Don

Don Dellmann Contact me at: don.dellmann@... See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

On 5/4/2016 11:41 AM, ckinzer@... [vintageHO] wrote:

I guess “vintage” is necessarily a relative term.

Today’s detailed injected molded electronics laden offerings may be vintage to a future Jetson family member. The notion of having to machine metal dies may become rather quaint.

Perhaps we need to think in terms of “ages”. Such as the “scratch age” that might arguably be the first.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Windows Mail

From: corlissbs@... [vintageHO]
Sent: ‎Wednesday‎, ‎May‎ ‎4‎, ‎2016 ‎9‎:‎12‎ ‎AM
To: corlissbs@... [vintageHO]

Hi Jim,

GREAT question, and one that I'm sure was generated at least partially in response to my remark to Bill's introduction when I wrote "I believe earlier Train Miniature would well be considered within the vintage time-frame we established here (which is still a bit vague sometimes)." Don (Dellmann) briefly outlined here a short while ago, what was to be considered "vintage," but even then a lot was left up in the air without being finalized/pin-pointed as to where a cut-off period would be. I do remember him including certain manufacturers as vintage, right up to 1970 or so -- or was it 1980?

I know what you mean about the automobile world and their threshold for a car to become an antique needing to be at least 25 years old (or more). Motor Vehicle Divisions in many (most? all?) states take this into consideration when a car approaches this age. One of my older cars, a 1993 Mercury Cougar, has been considered by my State (NJ) not to need to be presented for vehicle inspection any longer, as per a letter I received from the Agency several weeks ago with my registration renewal. This new auto registration will expire in May 2017, at which time this car will be 24 years old. At that time, I'll have the choice to renew its registration as is, or re-register it as an antique with "QQ" plates (tags). I don't consider this car any more of an antique than I do my 1949 Ford -- and I don't consider my '49 Ford an antique, but instead, a "Classic" car -- and the Mercury is more "modern" than anything else it could be categorized as. With this, I have to wonder how Sean considers his Mustang; antique or classic? In any case by this it can be seen that an automobile's age has little to do with the age of model trains.

.

I do believe that "vintage" as associated with model trains mainly refers to a certain time period and that it should be restricted primarily to that period, although it appears -- even from what Don stated -- that certain manufacturers may extend past the considered "vintage" time frame to slightly later years, as one set date for all does not appear to have been established. One large part of this period's cut-off date pertains to the particular craftsman construction style of the models produced falls under. By this, yes I would have to say that most (perhaps all?) manufacturers now off the vintage list would remain off the vintage list as "vintage" has nothing to do with increased age, as automobiles would. "Vintage" with H0 trains remains a certain time frame within the period that these models were produced. Additional years gone by has nothing to do with a model being "vintage" and will not change its more modern construction techniques.

The late ' 70's does not necessarily qualify as a general "vintage" cut off period, except as Don spelled out for us previously (and which I don't recall vividly enough to restate at this time). Again, I'm hoping he can clarify this further. While some Atlas/Roco stuff was made in the late ' 70's, I don't see this as being vintage for these models. With Lew English taking over Bill Bowser's "Bowser Manufacturing Co." in 1961, I still feel that it would remain to be considered as vintage at least up until 1970.  Part of this consideration is due to Bowser replacement parts -- even for a 1970 kit -- having been manufactured during that previous decade. To extend the date any further though would just not add to it being vintage. That some Bowser kits contained Penn Line frames only adds to those kits' vintage status. I remember buying two Bowser cast metal boiler Mountain kits around 1977, each kit having a warped cast Penn Line frame. I bought two new Mountain frames from Bowser (Lew English) and was send two cast metal Penn Line frames (not brass frames), yet I don't consider my kits bought in 1977 "vintage."

As for Athearn, while the end of the Hi F drive might be considered as the limit for vintage here, I would extend it into the first generation of geared locomotives (through 1968), which would then take in the 1600 Series of operating (operable) door reefers and the other rolling stock that was made during this period (up through early/mid '60's). There's a marked difference between the operable door moulded plastic reefers and any later ones. I would not consider and Athearn engines produced in the 1970's -- such as the ALCo PA's I bought in 1975 -- to be vintage. Of course, this is only my take on when models cease to be considered vintage, but when I was buying new Athearn locos in 1975, I was also buying "VINTAGE" equipment dating back another 20 to 25 years, and earlier.

As for Life Like and their vintage classification, while those models produced by Sol Kramer would be considered as such, especially because of their age, their particular construction style alone does not necessarily catagorize them as vintage, nor should newer similar versions of Life Like models be considered as vintage only because of them being knock-offs. Ye Old Huff & Puff reproduced many earlier lines in the 1980's but they don't qualify as vintage. In some areas of manufacture, there's a thin line between what's actually vintage and what's still collectible. Walthers reproduced Silver Streak, Ulrich and other lines they bought out, starting in the early 1970's. Many of them even carry the original car side numbers of their predecessor manufacturers. Once built, it's hard to tell them apart from the original manufacturers; models, yet they are not vintage. Pacific HO is vintage, Ulrich is vintage. But not Walthers' reproductions of the same. This does not take away from them though; I have practically everything that Walthers made as reproductions of earlier manufacturers. While I have the original Ulrich line complete, I don't have all of the original Pacific HO/Silver Streak and am glad to have been able to fill in with Walthers kits. The construction methods of these kits are the same craftsman style with the same materials.

Just touching on Train Miniature for a few minutes, this line only started in 1968, yet I feel that they should be considered as vintage when referring to their first manufacturing in California. When they became Train Miniature of Illinois, even while they were similar, I don't seen them as being vintage at this late date, and it becomes a stretch even to consider them as such right up until the move to Illinois.

In general, we can all fall back on the early all-metal, wood & metal and wood models from pre-War up through early post-War and the subsequent decades as certainly being vintage without question. It's where the gray line of "newer" non-vintage starts that's still vague to a lot of members as it can vary with manufacturers.

Ray Wetzel



In a message dated 5/4/2016 6:50:26 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Hey Ray and all,

In the car world, it's an antique at 25 years old. But it's still hard
to call a 1990 Chevy and antigue, let alone a classic. (Some will
disagree, but they still seem like modern cars).

When do we move the clock forward on what is vintage?

As an example, it seems like the early Atlas/Roco stuff would not
qualify but some was made in the late 70's. I can't seem to get it in my
mind that it is 'antique', even though it's over 35 years old at this
point. At what point is Athearn NOT vintage? After rubber band drive?
Some version of their drive train? A time cut off? When does Bowser
become modern - when they ran out of original Penn Line frames (and
switched to brass)?

Are any manufacturers off the list forever and for what reasons? If a
new manufacturer picked up older tooling and continued to produce, is it
vintage (Life Like for example, in various incarnations in the 60's and
70's).

Guys - any thoughts?

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25382	From: willard seehorn	Date: 5/5/2016
Subject: Re: When does a train become vintage?

This thread sort of reminds me of the heated arguments (that I read about, wasn't there, despite my appearance) that medieval theologians had about how many angels could dance on the head of a pin.

First question, what class of angel are we talking about? It does make a difference! Are they Seraphim, Cherubim, Thrones, Dominions, Virtues, Powers, Principalities, Archangels, Angels, or Personal guardian angels?

Willard

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25383	From: Van Campbell	Date: 5/5/2016
Subject: Re: When does a train become vintage?

I believe that another way to gauge a particular model as vintage ("vintage", as I would define the word in context with model trains, would also have connotations of being a "collectible") would be market value. Most models, like an automobile, will depreciate in value almost immediately, regardless as to if it's NOS or used. One could consider that any 'out-of-production' model that has begun to appreciate in value, relative to it's initial retail value, as a vintage collectible.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25384	From: Doug Harris	Date: 5/5/2016
Subject: Re: When does a train become vintage?

On 5/05/2016 15:32, 23.weldon@... [vintageHO] wrote:

> Rick - Like I sorta suggested, antique and vintage are much in the
> eye of the individual. I don't quite know how you can possibly
> define them to specific calendar periods for most cultural purposes.

I did see some figures from the antique trade many years back -
'Antique' was over 100 years old, and I can't remember 'Vintage' - maybe
google would know..

--
Cheers.

Doug Harris
Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25385	From: Doug Harris	Date: 5/5/2016
Subject: Re: Hello I am a new member

On 5/05/2016 16:42, William Murray william.murray@...
[vintageHO] wrote:

> That is about the only good thing I have found since becoming a senile citizen.
>
>
> On Wednesday, May 4, 2016 6:04 PM,"ckinzer@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> The key word is “old” which usually means you don’t have to give a rat’s derriere what anyone else thinks.
> Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer
>
>
> Sent from Windows Mail
> From:corlissbs@... [vintageHO]
> Sent: ‎Wednesday‎, ‎May‎ ‎4‎, ‎2016 ‎3‎:‎29‎ ‎PM
> To:corlissbs@... [vintageHO]
> On 5/05/2016 04:50,ckinzer@... [vintageHO] wrote:
>> > I suspect many of us are a “doddering old fool who plays with toys.” Can you get a bumper sticker for that?
>> > Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer
>
> Never tell them you play with or have 'toys'. My explanation is that 'I
> collect*antique* toys, particularly pre-war and postwar Japanese' which
> adds a respectable aura and mystery to it.
>
>
> Works!
> -- Cheers. Doug Harris - a doddering old 77, and still collecting -
> trains and years.. Auckland, New Zealand
> ------------------------------------
> ------------------------------------
> ------------------------------------ Yahoo Groups Links #yiv2451717597
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William - please turn off your html..

Thanks..

--
Cheers.

Doug Harris
Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25386	From: Dale Smith	Date: 5/5/2016
Subject: Re: When does a train become vintage?

As far as antiques go, vintage is generally 25 years. Collectibles can really be any age. Antique shows, such as those where I help my wife sell "vintage" jewelry, rarely enforce a 100 year age limit, but many require that everything offered be at least 25 years old.

As to trains, for someone in his 70's, vintage is what I had as a teenager and earlier. I may not be able to define it, but, as Justice Stewart once said, "I know it when I see it."

Dale Smith

On 5/5/2016 8:54 PM, Doug Harris digbee@... [vintageHO] wrote:

On 5/05/2016 15:32, 23.weldon@... [vintageHO] wrote:
> Rick - Like I sorta suggested, antique and vintage are much in the
> eye of the individual. I don't quite know how you can possibly
> define them to specific calendar periods for most cultural purposes.

I did see some figures from the antique trade many years back -
'Antique' was over 100 years old, and I can't remember 'Vintage' - maybe
google would know..

--
Cheers.

Doug Harris
Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25387	From: William Murray	Date: 5/5/2016
Subject: Re: Hello I am a new member

Attachments :

You ain't getting paid.You ain't working. Your doing it because you are enjoying it. Because it is FUN (remember that word?). Embrace the inner boy.

On Thursday, May 5, 2016 8:03 PM, "Victor Bitleris bitlerisvj@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Ummm, well, when my wife asked what I did this afternoon, I told her I worked on the railroad. She said, oh, you played trains. I said I worked. I was laying track, etc. When I go to operating sessions as I will next Tuesday, she will say, I am playing trains. When I go to my friends house on the third Friday of the month to help build the layout and WORK, she says, oh, your playing trains. And when I go to our NMRA CPD13 meetings on the 4th Tuesday of the month, she says oh, your playing trains. I just can't win. It is really work, ....after retirement.

Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of William Murray william.murray@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 5, 2016 7:47 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Hello I am a new member

Well I don't know about you guys but I play with my toys.

On Thursday, May 5, 2016 1:45 PM, "eriepacific@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

That's what many people outside of the hobby want to believe. All the more reason why we need to use terms like "operate" and "model" so that it gets drummed into them that we don't just play with toys < g >.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 5/5/2016 2:38:43 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

My wife says that I play with my toys.

Brad Smith

Sent from Brad's iPod

On May 4, 2016, at 6:12 PM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Certainly, we never "play" with our trains. Then too, we never "run" them -- we OPERATE them. And then, they're not just "trains," they're MODELS -- and scale models, to boot.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 5/4/2016 7:04:38 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

The key word is “old” which usually means you don’t have to give a rat’s derriere what anyone else thinks.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Windows Mail

From: corlissbs@... [vintageHO]
Sent: ‎Wednesday‎, ‎May‎ ‎4‎, ‎2016 ‎3‎:‎29‎ ‎PM
To: corlissbs@... [vintageHO]

On 5/05/2016 04:50, ckinzer@... [vintageHO] wrote:
> I suspect many of us are a “doddering old fool who plays with toys.” Can you get a bumper sticker for that?
> Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Never tell them you play with or have 'toys'. My explanation is that 'I
collect *antique* toys, particularly pre-war and postwar Japanese' which
adds a respectable aura and mystery to it.

Works!
--
Cheers.

Doug Harris - a doddering old 77, and still collecting - trains and years..
Auckland, New Zealand

------------------------------------

------------------------------------

------------------------------------

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Group: vintageHO	Message: 25388	From: Graeme	Date: 5/5/2016
Subject: Re: When does a train become vintage?

In message <572C39C4.9020106@...>, "Dale Smith dalefsmith@...
[vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> writes

>
>As to trains, for someone in his 70's, vintage is what I had as a
>teenager and earlier. I may not be able to define it, but, as Justice
>Stewart once said, "I know it when I see it."

Agreed :-)

Everyone has their own definitions, it seems, but, FWIW, here are mine :

Pre WWI antique

WWI to WWII Pre War

WWII to 1969/70 Post War

1970 to today Modern
--
Graeme, Scotland

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25389	From: rick flaherty	Date: 5/6/2016
Subject: Re: When does a train become vintage?

Attachments :

Bugs P-38[7].png

Anything “vintage” is what you have fond memories of.

It can be from 50 years ago or yesterday. Like a fine wine that will never again be produced.

It comes from the heart and soul. Not from the wallet.

Rick

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits". Albert Einstein

From: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of "Graeme graeme@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Reply-To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Thursday, May 5, 2016 at 11:53 PM
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: When does a train become vintage?

In message <572C39C4.9020106@...>, "Dale Smith dalefsmith@...
[vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> writes

>
>As to trains, for someone in his 70's, vintage is what I had as a
>teenager and earlier. I may not be able to define it, but, as Justice
>Stewart once said, "I know it when I see it."

Agreed :-)

Everyone has their own definitions, it seems, but, FWIW, here are mine :

Pre WWI antique

WWI to WWII Pre War

WWII to 1969/70 Post War

1970 to today Modern
--
Graeme, Scotland

@@attachment@@

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25390	From: Graeme	Date: 5/6/2016
Subject: Re: When does a train become vintage? [1 Attachment]

In message <D3518F58.3050D%flick23@...>, "rick flaherty
flick23@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> writes

>Anything ³vintage² is what you have fond memories of.

Probably, although looking at my list below, I would describe Pre War as
Vintage, although I was not born then :-)

>
>Pre WWI antique
>
>WWI to WWII Pre War
>
>WWII to 1969/70 Post War
>
>1970 to today Modern

--
Graeme, 1952 vintage

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25391	From: Doug Harris	Date: 5/6/2016
Subject: Re: Hello I am a new member

On 6/05/2016 15:23, William Murray william.murray@...
[vintageHO] wrote:

> You ain't getting paid.You ain't working. Your doing it because you are
> enjoying it. Because it is FUN (remember that word?). Embrace the inner
> boy.

Is Model Railroading still fun??

--
Cheers.

Doug Harris
Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25392	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 5/6/2016
Subject: Re: Hello I am a new member

Attachments :

Hahahaha,

Yes, that is exactly why I do it. Truthfully, some parts are more fun than others. I will be very happy when my trackwork is complete and ballasted so I can get on with the more fun parts, like building models, scenery, and RUNNING trains (operating).

Regarding my helping on my friends layout, there are about 25 of us working on this as we all expect to operate on this very large layout when it is built. Got to pay the piper if you want to play.

I must say it is very gratifying and FUN to watch trains run through complex trackwork that you created. Additionally, it is more fun to see vintage trains running through it.

Regards, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of William Murray william.murray@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 5, 2016 11:23 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Hello I am a new member

You ain't getting paid.You ain't working. Your doing it because you are enjoying it. Because it is FUN (remember that word?). Embrace the inner boy.

On Thursday, May 5, 2016 8:03 PM, "Victor Bitleris bitlerisvj@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Ummm, well, when my wife asked what I did this afternoon, I told her I worked on the railroad. She said, oh, you played trains. I said I worked. I was laying track, etc. When I go to operating sessions as I will next Tuesday, she will say, I am playing trains. When I go to my friends house on the third Friday of the month to help build the layout and WORK, she says, oh, your playing trains. And when I go to our NMRA CPD13 meetings on the 4th Tuesday of the month, she says oh, your playing trains. I just can't win. It is really work, ....after retirement.

Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of William Murray william.murray@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 5, 2016 7:47 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Hello I am a new member

Well I don't know about you guys but I play with my toys.

On Thursday, May 5, 2016 1:45 PM, "eriepacific@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

That's what many people outside of the hobby want to believe. All the more reason why we need to use terms like "operate" and "model" so that it gets drummed into them that we don't just play with toys < g >.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 5/5/2016 2:38:43 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

My wife says that I play with my toys.

Brad Smith

Sent from Brad's iPod

On May 4, 2016, at 6:12 PM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Certainly, we never "play" with our trains. Then too, we never "run" them -- we OPERATE them. And then, they're not just "trains," they're MODELS -- and scale models, to boot.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 5/4/2016 7:04:38 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

The key word is “old” which usually means you don’t have to give a rat’s derriere what anyone else thinks.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Windows Mail

From: corlissbs@... [vintageHO]
Sent: ‎Wednesday‎, ‎May‎ ‎4‎, ‎2016 ‎3‎:‎29‎ ‎PM
To: corlissbs@... [vintageHO]

On 5/05/2016 04:50, ckinzer@... [vintageHO] wrote:
> I suspect many of us are a “doddering old fool who plays with toys.” Can you get a bumper sticker for that?
> Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Never tell them you play with or have 'toys'. My explanation is that 'I
collect *antique* toys, particularly pre-war and postwar Japanese' which
adds a respectable aura and mystery to it.

Works!
--
Cheers.

Doug Harris - a doddering old 77, and still collecting - trains and years..
Auckland, New Zealand

------------------------------------

------------------------------------

------------------------------------

Yahoo Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

<*> Your email settings:
    Individual Email | Traditional

<*> To change settings online go to:
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Group: vintageHO	Message: 25393	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 5/6/2016
Subject: Re: When does a train become vintage?

HAHAHAHA!!! I love it Will. And I totally agree with you.

Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of willard seehorn wseehorn@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 5, 2016 10:02 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: When does a train become vintage?

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25394	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 5/6/2016
Subject: Re: When does a train become vintage?

The below flashed into my mind when I discovered an interview video on YouTube yesterday that is about 2-months old.

There is now another company in 3D printing that uses a process more advanced and even less costly than the Carbon-3d very fast resin printing. Carbon-3d is limited to a build about 4x4x-whatever due to a critical part of its mechanism…….. This newer process is currently building in 2/3 of the time as Carbon-3d and ……..

IS PRINTING PRESENTLY AT ONE-SQUARE METER PLUS HOWEVER TALL. !!! and it uses any 3d printing resin from any source, from soft rubber to gear-hard curing resin.

In short, that means that as far as our hobby goes, there is a fast printing, possibly very high resolution process that can render even the largest model RR part we are familiar with.

AND….

They state they have a similar high speed print process for METALS !!!

While it’s not vintage originals…….. consider the joy, or horror of ….. for example…… PennLine HO Crusaders printed in metal and finally available to anyone upon a simple request to have one printed up….

Scary… Huh ???

Best to ya,

Mike Bauers

Milwaukee, Wi

On May 4, 2016, at 1:47 PM, Don Dellmann wrote:

What I'd rather not see is reproductions, unless it may be to fabricate a part to complete an otherwise "vintage" model (sorry Mike), major upgrades of locomotives (I turn a blind eye to remotering, but if you put DCC in it, don't tell me! or ANYTHING made in China

The real thing I was more concerned about was this was NOT to be a group about strictly collecting. The whole idea was that we RAN our models.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25395	From: rick.flaherty	Date: 5/6/2016
Subject: Re: When does a train become vintage?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=liIlW-ovx0Y
&
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7iXw9zZrLo

-----------------------------------------

From: "Victor Bitleris bitlerisvj@... [vintageHO]"
To: "vintageHO@yahoogroups.com"
Cc:
Sent: Fri, 6 May 2016 14:24:15 +0000
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: When does a train become vintage?

HAHAHAHA!!! I love it Will. And I totally agree with you.

Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25396	From: Dennis Kunkel	Date: 5/6/2016
Subject: Re: When does a train become vintage?

My question on this subject is the "continuation" or "evolution" models. For instance, Mantua, which was built over a number of decades. We can certainly agree that the early brass boiler Pacifics and Atlantics are vintage. Then we get into the die-cast Mantuas. The first die-cast Mikados and Pacifics had all die-cast metal boilers, including the cab, and a die-cast metal tender. Given their age, they would be classified as vintage. These models then evolved over time, up to and including the Model Power versions. The cabs and tenders became plastic, gearboxes gave way to a worm on a DC70 (DC60?) motor, then the small Mantua motor, and eventually a can motor and gearbox. At what point in this evolution did the models cease to be vintage? The latest iterations are fundamentally the same models they were back in the 1960's.

The same is true for Bowser. The original Bowsers from Redlands - vintage. When Bowser was sold to Lew English in 1961 and moved to Pennsylvania, production of the models continued. Brass boilers gave way to die-cast, and many other evolutionary improvements were made over the years. What criteria can be used to distinguish a vintage Bowser from a modern Bowser? There seems to be agreement that Penn Line is vintage. Bowser bought Penn Line in 1963 and the Penn Line models continued as Bowser models, with continuous evolutionary improvements. There is not a great deal of difference between a Penn Line locomotive and the equivalent Bowser locomotive at the end of production of the Bowser steam locomotive line, other than evolutionary improvements.

Another manufacturer is Hobbytown. Hobbytown drives have been around long enough for at least the earliest ones to be classified as vintage, based on age. The basic design of the drives, with helical gearing in the trucks, did not change significantly over the lifetime of Hobbytown, through Bear Locomotive. The huge DC90 motors gave way to smaller motors and eventually can motors. The gear tower moved from outboard to inboard on the trucks. Flywheels were introduced. Clutches were briefly part of the drivetrain. All evolutionary improvements. Where is the cutoff between vintage and modern?

Should all of the "evolutionary" models be considered as vintage, even those produced after 2000, if they employ the same basic design as the vintage models?

Dennis Kunkel

From: "'John Hagen' sprinthag@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 4, 2016 12:55 PM
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] When does a train become vintage?

Well,

This does come up from time to time. Me thinks it is best for Don Dellmann, list owner, to set the parameters. He has done so in the past but what they were and/or when they were posted --------?

The groups home page states;

“Group Description

Maybe Don will post an undated version and put it in a file folder so we can direct inquirers to it in the future?

John Hagen

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25397	From: Bob Macklin	Date: 5/6/2016
Subject: Re: When does a train become vintage?

My feeling is PRE plastic or possibly the early partial plastic.

I prefer the zinc diecast locomotives and the wood/metal cars.

I hate Athearn plastic cars but I can tolerate the MDC Old Timer plastic cars.

LaBelle wood car kits are still in production but assembling one today is the same as it was 40 years ago.

Even the Walther's Silver Streak and Ulrich kits are the same as they were back in the 60's.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: Dennis Kunkel dtkunkel@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2016 12:39 PM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] When does a train become vintage?

My question on this subject is the "continuation" or "evolution" models. For instance, Mantua, which was built over a number of decades. We can certainly agree that the early brass boiler Pacifics and Atlantics are vintage. Then we get into the die-cast Mantuas. The first die-cast Mikados and Pacifics had all die-cast metal boilers, including the cab, and a die-cast metal tender. Given their age, they would be classified as vintage. These models then evolved over time, up to and including the Model Power versions. The cabs and tenders became plastic, gearboxes gave way to a worm on a DC70 (DC60?) motor, then the small Mantua motor, and eventually a can motor and gearbox. At what point in this evolution did the models cease to be vintage? The latest iterations are fundamentally the same models they were back in the 1960's.

The same is true for Bowser. The original Bowsers from Redlands - vintage. When Bowser was sold to Lew English in 1961 and moved to Pennsylvania, production of the models continued. Brass boilers gave way to die-cast, and many other evolutionary improvements were made over the years. What criteria can be used to distinguish a vintage Bowser from a modern Bowser? There seems to be agreement that Penn Line is vintage. Bowser bought Penn Line in 1963 and the Penn Line models continued as Bowser models, with continuous evolutionary improvements. There is not a great deal of difference between a Penn Line locomotive and the equivalent Bowser locomotive at the end of production of the Bowser steam locomotive line, other than evolutionary improvements.

Another manufacturer is Hobbytown. Hobbytown drives have been around long enough for at least the earliest ones to be classified as vintage, based on age. The basic design of the drives, with helical gearing in the trucks, did not change significantly over the lifetime of Hobbytown, through Bear Locomotive. The huge DC90 motors gave way to smaller motors and eventually can motors. The gear tower moved from outboard to inboard on the trucks. Flywheels were introduced. Clutches were briefly part of the drivetrain. All evolutionary improvements. Where is the cutoff between vintage and modern?

Should all of the "evolutionary" models be considered as vintage, even those produced after 2000, if they employ the same basic design as the vintage models?

Dennis Kunkel

From: "'John Hagen' sprinthag@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 4, 2016 12:55 PM
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] When does a train become vintage?

Well,

2015 is “vintage.” Trying to define it is a tad on the improbable side. But I would personally consider anything that is no longer available, had some sort of significance, was not made in the thousands and appeals to me as vintage. Now this means that vintage would be many things to many people. But what it means on this group is something else.

This does come up from time to time. Me thinks it is best for Don Dellmann, list owner, to set the parameters. He has done so in the past but what they were and/or when they were posted --------?

The groups home page states;

“Group Description

This is the place for those who collect and RUN that wonderful vintage HO from the early 1960's and before.

Does the thought of Varney, Penn Line, Megow, Kasiner, Blue Line, Lionel HO, Ulrich, American Beauty, Hobbyline, Marx, Revell, etc. etc. make your heart beat faster? This is the place for you.

Athearn Metal cars, MDC back when they really WERE "diecast", Walthers metal passenger cars, all are "on topic" here.

The models us "olde pharts" grew up with, the wood and metal, and even cardstock kits. The pioneering plastic models, all the heritage that made model railroading the greatest hobby in the world.

Join us as we go back to those thrilling days of yesteryear.”

Maybe Don will post an undated version and put it in a file folder so we can direct inquirers to it in the future?

John Hagen

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25398	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 5/7/2016
Subject: Re: Hello I am a new member

Try the easy way first.....

If it's a buried conductive surface problem and not just a gap.....

A couple of drops of Tuner Cleaner or CRC Electronic Cleaner will neutralize the hidden oxidation and restore as-new condition to the electrical path.

Mike Bauers

Sent from my iPhone

On May 5, 2016, at 9:41 AM, "'Chuck Higdon' vze5crrw1@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

With the tracks losing power it is in the plate the points pivot over. Mostly in the winter when the wood shrinks because it dries out some. Putting jumpers in from the running rails to the inside rails solves the issue, but it is extra work you did not want to have to do. But once done, it is done. Or bigger gaps between the rails on the switch and joining tracks. Or a bigger nail to hold the switch flat.

Take care,
Chuck

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Wednesday, May 4, 2016 12:26 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Hello I am a new member

Thanks for your reply. Yes Atlas switch's are ugly and non-prototype. I use them because everything else cost too damn much. Could these tortoise machines work on an Atlas turnout? Ain't no way I could replace all my turnouts and machines. My pension isn't that big. I am becoming increasingly disillusioned with Atlas. I have noticed some of my turnouts have lost their internal connection and the part between the frog and the end is dead. But my biggest pita was with my 19 degree crossings. I had four and many of my locos stalled on them. I replaced them with Peco crossings and the problem went away. And Atlas customer service is the pits! I know more about how their relays work than they do !! (I am not exaggerating). I find my self replacing some of my Atlas turnouts when there is no apparent damage. They just poop out internally. And their 280 series of turnouts are garbage. They have no screwdown tabs and the machines fly off the ties when you power them!! I like the old 260 series because them had metal frogs too. Anyway glad to hear from you.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25399	From: Ed Weldon	Date: 5/7/2016
Subject: Re: Hello I am a new member

FWIW : http://www.helpguide.org/articles/emotional-health/benefits-of-play-for-adults.htm Ed Weldon

“…..she says oh, your playing trains. I just can't win.” Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

“Well I don't know about you guys but I play with my toys. william.murray

“we don't just play with toys“ Ray Wetzel

“My wife says that I play with my toys.” Brad Smith

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25400	From: trainliker	Date: 5/7/2016
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Hello I am a new member

I think they may be referring to a bit different sort of “play”. The article focuses on play with others.

So model railroading may help relationships with other model railroaders. But I doubt that a weekend spent playing with trains in the basement is going to help anyone’s spousal relationship.

I’m afraid that model railroading is the sort of hobby that is more likely to shut family and most friends out of the that particular play picture.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Windows Mail

From: corlissbs@... [vintageHO]
Sent: ‎Saturday‎, ‎May‎ ‎7‎, ‎2016 ‎7‎:‎56‎ ‎AM
To: corlissbs@... [vintageHO]

FWIW : http://www.helpguide.org/articles/emotional-health/benefits-of-play-for-adults.htm Ed Weldon

“…..she says oh, your playing trains. I just can't win.” Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

“Well I don't know about you guys but I play with my toys. william.murray

“we don't just play with toys“ Ray Wetzel

“My wife says that I play with my toys.” Brad Smith

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25401	From: roger_aultman	Date: 5/7/2016
Subject: Re: Hello I am a new member

--
Perhaps similar to playing cards or sports. Roger Aultman

-- "ckinzer@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

=============
I think they may be referring to a bit different sort of “play”. The article focuses on play with others.

So model railroading may help relationships with other model railroaders. But I doubt that a weekend spent playing with trains in the basement is going to help anyone’s spousal relationship.

I’m afraid that model railroading is the sort of hobby that is more likely to shut family and most friends out of the that particular play picture.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Windows Mail

From: corlissbs@... [vintageHO]
Sent: ‎Saturday‎, ‎May‎ ‎7‎, ‎2016 ‎7‎:‎56‎ ‎AM
To: corlissbs@... [vintageHO]

FWIW : http://www.helpguide.org/articles/emotional-health/benefits-of-play-for-adults.htm Ed Weldon

“…..she says oh, your playing trains. I just can't win.” Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

“Well I don't know about you guys but I play with my toys. william.murray

“we don't just play with toys“ Ray Wetzel

“My wife says that I play with my toys.” Brad Smith

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25402	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 5/7/2016
Subject: Re: Hello I am a new member

Sorry guys, I'm not playing with my trains.....

I'm exploring flanged wheel, guided rail, transit systems on a micro-cosmic basis; with a focus on theoretical propulsion systems and adaptive engineering.

Thus I freelance with much of my modeling and use electric drives with various electronic controls.

I also do field research in the outside world of existing train systems combined with studies of past systems and engineering.

And let's not overlook the related studies of the many ways to craft my miniatures and the acquired tools to do so.

Yes guys, I am a practitioner of ...

MicroFerroEquinology .....

A MicroFerroEquinologist !!!!!

I don't play with.... I explore the use of model trains.

Damn, I do have a lot of fun with it in the process.......

Mike Bauers

Sent from my iPhone

On May 7, 2016, at 9:56 AM, "Ed Weldon 23.weldon@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

FWIW : http://www.helpguide.org/articles/emotional-health/benefits-of-play-for-adults.htm Ed Weldon

“…..she says oh, your playing trains. I just can't win.” Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

“Well I don't know about you guys but I play with my toys. william.murray

“we don't just play with toys“ Ray Wetzel

“My wife says that I play with my toys.” Brad Smith

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25403	From: toytrain13	Date: 5/7/2016
Subject: Looking for Walthers Roof Bead castings

Hello. I'd like to obtain (purchase) one or more sets of Walters Rood Beads C978-C979. I'm building a couple of the old Exacta (copper body) passenger cars, and I need these for the wood Monitor roofs.
Thanks- Richard White

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25404	From: Bob Macklin	Date: 5/7/2016
Subject: Re: Hello I am a new member

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer said:

<<So model railroading may help relationships with other model railroaders. But I doubt that a weekend spent playing with trains in the basement is going to help anyone’s spousal relationship.>>

My told me she would rather have me in my hobby room playing with my toys than in a bar somewhere!

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: ckinzer@... [vintageHO]

To: corlissbs@... [vintageHO]

Sent: Saturday, May 07, 2016 8:15 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Hello I am a new member

I think they may be referring to a bit different sort of “play”. The article focuses on play with others.

So model railroading may help relationships with other model railroaders. But I doubt that a weekend spent playing with trains in the basement is going to help anyone’s spousal relationship.

I’m afraid that model railroading is the sort of hobby that is more likely to shut family and most friends out of the that particular play picture.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Windows Mail

From: corlissbs@... [vintageHO]
Sent: ‎Saturday‎, ‎May‎ ‎7‎, ‎2016 ‎7‎:‎56‎ ‎AM
To: corlissbs@... [vintageHO]

FWIW : http://www.helpguide.org/articles/emotional-health/benefits-of-play-for-adults.htm Ed Weldon

“…..she says oh, your playing trains. I just can't win.” Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

“Well I don't know about you guys but I play with my toys. william.murray

“we don't just play with toys“ Ray Wetzel

“My wife says that I play with my toys.” Brad Smith

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25405	From: chfengr.elkhornforge	Date: 5/7/2016
Subject: Re: Hello I am a new member

There's a difference between enjoying a glass of wine and being an alcoholic. Same with Model Railroading. The wise man knows where to draw the line.
For me, my situation is a bit different than most. The few hours I get to play with my hobby are my most refreshing times. I sure wouldn't want to lose that.
Ed W

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25406	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 5/7/2016
Subject: Re: When does a train become vintage?

Sent this over 5 hours ago, but Yahoo never posted it. My apologies if you receive this twice.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 5/7/2016 10:40:39 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, EriePacific@... writes:

This is still not an easy question to answer, even after receiving Don's revision of this, but I'll take another stab at addressing these particular issues. For starters though, with model railroad items, it's not as simple as assigning automobiles to a certain cut-off date, and then too, since much of the consideration of what's "vintage" is attributed to the "style of modeling" as Don points out, this mainly craftsman style of construction that's associated with what constitutes a vintage model doesn't just end for all manufacturers in one certain year.

Various manufacturers continued their own certain style of construction independent of other manufacturers, yet each of these same manufacturers incorporated their own -- or similar -- craftsman style construction which is noted to be vintage. Now, getting to "continuation" or "evolution" of models, it's sometimes difficult to draw the line but as concerns Mantua, I believe everyone is in agreement that their pre-War and post-War formed brass steam engines are all vintage. I think we should also agree that the all cast-metal locos with gear boxes drives are also vintage. I would even go so far as to include the all-cast-metal (w/metal cab, metal front end detail [pilot,etc.] and metal tender) Mantua also vintage despite having the exposed spur gear on the axle.

When things changed from there, I no longer saw this line as being vintage. Plastic cab, plastic front end and plastic tender changes it all more than enough, from being vintage. In general, and I'll use this term loosely, it might appear -- at times -- that when a manufacturing line is sold or has changed hands, it's no long the vintage line that it once was despite the fact that the line may still retain the same construction style. While craftsman construction may help denote a vintage model, I don't believe their later knock-off counterparts of these same models should enjoy this vintage designation. The Main Line, Silver Streak, L-W, A-C, Binkley and other reproduction produced by Ye Olde Huff 'N Puff in the 1980's just do not constitute a vintage designation as I see it. The same goes for Mantua, especially when they changed hands a number of times between being "Mantua" and "Tyco." I don't see Tyco as being vintage, and I especially don't see the later Mantua, after Tyco, as being vintage, even though I was glad to see John Tyler once more in command..

As for Lew English's Bowser Manufacturing Co., while he no longer manufactured the cast brass/bronze boilered (Knapp) Mountain loco, the zamak M1 Mountain he did offer into the early 1970's was in close design to Bill Bowser's Mountain, even if not the same appearance. Then too, when Lew English bought out his portion (along with Sol Kramer buying the other portion) of Bob Faust's Penn Line company on January 29, 1964, he made no changes to them for a good while and I would think this line should still remain as "vintage" up until the time that English changed the frames from cast metal to pressed brass. "Evolutionary Improvements," depending on their extent, changes a model from being vintage to one not being able to continue being vintage -- as I see it, even if it's not considered "modern." To change all of the frames on his Bowser models to brass is a major change.

The original Hobbytown of Boston models were at one time vintage when they first started out. After making major changes, I don't believe they would still be considered as being vintage as now those same models were different enough from their original production so as to be notably altered. The flywheel drive being one of these major alterations from vintage. As for clutches, this is a minor alteration that was most often chosen by the modeler as an aftermarket addition, bought from sources other than Hobbytown if it wanted to be added.

As I see it, "Evolutionary" models should not be considered as vintage, since evolved models no longer resemble the original vintage models. I don't even see why evolving models should be considered for vintage as they've often changed to a large degree. "Basic" (to vintage) design is not the same as fully original design when the drive has been changed, and even while a set date does not involve vintage models, I can't think of any model produced after 2000 as having the same design as any vintage model.

While most of us probably have our own preferences in vintage models, we can't discriminate some vintage models from others just because of this. I too prefer wood/metal cars, but we cannot omit early plastic cars from being considered vintage. There were some vintage models that were made of cardstock and wood, but with a plastic roof. Such were Lehigh Models. There as a line of early plastic Mantua reefers with lithographed pressed metal sides.  I own and run (operate - < g >) a number of early Athearn plastic cars as being vintage even though I have all of Athearn's metal cars with about 95% of their road numbers. G.F. Menzies metal cars are reproductions, yet I still bought them (yes, many use the same Athearn produced sides). D.J. Baker, the same thing and Park Varieties the same also, although Franklin Brua did all his own, different roadnames.

Many of the Walthers Silver Streak and Ulrich models of the 1970's may be the "same" as the original vintage Pacific HO (Silver Streak) and Ulrich models of the previous decade, but they're actually reproductions -- same as Ye Olde Huff 'N Puff reproduced model's of other early manufacturers in the 1980's, but I don't see these as "vintage;" they're not the same Pacific HO. Yeah, like you, I'd like to see them as vintage, but when I consider that they bought out the earlier manufacturers and then continued to reproduce their same lines of models, I can only see them as that -- reproductions." This is not to say that I don't collect them and run them, as I do (and I'm glad I have them) because it's difficult to find all of the original Pacific HO models first produced. Once built and put on the rails, it's next to impossible to tell the difference, but when they go back in the box, they go back in a Walthers box. If Don wants to describe these (and Ye Olde Huff 'N Puff) as vintage, I'll certainly be glad to go along with that, but I wouldn't have thought so otherwise.

Again, aptly put -- " I'll know it when I see it."

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 5/6/2016 9:40:42 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

My feeling is PRE plastic or possibly the early partial plastic.

I prefer the zinc diecast locomotives and the wood/metal cars.

I hate Athearn plastic cars but I can tolerate the MDC Old Timer plastic cars.

LaBelle wood car kits are still in production but assembling one today is the same as it was 40 years ago.

Even the Walther's Silver Streak and Ulrich kits are the same as they were back in the 60's.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: Dennis Kunkel dtkunkel@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2016 12:39 PM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] When does a train become vintage?

My question on this subject is the "continuation" or "evolution" models. For instance, Mantua, which was built over a number of decades. We can certainly agree that the early brass boiler Pacifics and Atlantics are vintage. Then we get into the die-cast Mantuas. The first die-cast Mikados and Pacifics had all die-cast metal boilers, including the cab, and a die-cast metal tender. Given their age, they would be classified as vintage. These models then evolved over time, up to and including the Model Power versions. The cabs and tenders became plastic, gearboxes gave way to a worm on a DC70 (DC60?) motor, then the small Mantua motor, and eventually a can motor and gearbox. At what point in this evolution did the models cease to be vintage? The latest iterations are fundamentally the same models they were back in the 1960's.

The same is true for Bowser. The original Bowsers from Redlands - vintage. When Bowser was sold to Lew English in 1961 and moved to Pennsylvania, production of the models continued. Brass boilers gave way to die-cast, and many other evolutionary improvements were made over the years. What criteria can be used to distinguish a vintage Bowser from a modern Bowser? There seems to be agreement that Penn Line is vintage. Bowser bought Penn Line in 1963 and the Penn Line models continued as Bowser models, with continuous evolutionary improvements. There is not a great deal of difference between a Penn Line locomotive and the equivalent Bowser locomotive at the end of production of the Bowser steam locomotive line, other than evolutionary improvements.

Another manufacturer is Hobbytown. Hobbytown drives have been around long enough for at least the earliest ones to be classified as vintage, based on age. The basic design of the drives, with helical gearing in the trucks, did not change significantly over the lifetime of Hobbytown, through Bear Locomotive. The huge DC90 motors gave way to smaller motors and eventually can motors. The gear tower moved from outboard to inboard on the trucks. Flywheels were introduced. Clutches were briefly part of the drivetrain. All evolutionary improvements. Where is the cutoff between vintage and modern?

Should all of the "evolutionary" models be considered as vintage, even those produced after 2000, if they employ the same basic design as the vintage models?

Dennis Kunkel

From: "'John Hagen' sprinthag@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 4, 2016 12:55 PM
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] When does a train become vintage?

Well,

2015 is “vintage.” Trying to define it is a tad on the improbable side. But I would personally consider anything that is no longer available, had some sort of significance, was not made in the thousands and appeals to me as vintage. Now this means that vintage would be many things to many people. But what it means on this group is something else.

This does come up from time to time. Me thinks it is best for Don Dellmann, list owner, to set the parameters. He has done so in the past but what they were and/or when they were posted --------?

The groups home page states;

“Group Description

This is the place for those who collect and RUN that wonderful vintage HO from the early 1960's and before.

Does the thought of Varney, Penn Line, Megow, Kasiner, Blue Line, Lionel HO, Ulrich, American Beauty, Hobbyline, Marx, Revell, etc. etc. make your heart beat faster? This is the place for you.

Athearn Metal cars, MDC back when they really WERE "diecast", Walthers metal passenger cars, all are "on topic" here.

The models us "olde pharts" grew up with, the wood and metal, and even cardstock kits. The pioneering plastic models, all the heritage that made model railroading the greatest hobby in the world.

Join us as we go back to those thrilling days of yesteryear.”

Maybe Don will post an undated version and put it in a file folder so we can direct inquirers to it in the future?

John Hagen

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25407	From: Ken Starcher	Date: 5/7/2016
Subject: Re: When does a train become vintage?

If I'm buying it, it's just an old, outdated train. If I'm selling, it is a rare vintage classic. <grin>

Ken A Starcher 1570 Meriline St Cuyahoga Falls OH 44221 330.920.8035

--------------------------------------------

On Wed, 5/4/16, Jim Waterman Watermaj@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: [vintageHO] When does a train become vintage?
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, May 4, 2016, 6:50 AM

Hey Ray and all,

In the car world, it's an antique at 25 years old. But
it's still hard

to call a 1990 Chevy and antigue, let alone a classic. (Some
will

disagree, but they still seem like modern cars).

When do we move the clock forward on what is vintage?

As an example, it seems like the early Atlas/Roco stuff
would not

qualify but some was made in the late 70's. I can't
seem to get it in my

mind that it is 'antique', even though it's over
35 years old at this

point. At what point is Athearn NOT vintage? After rubber
band drive?

Some version of their drive train? A time cut off? When does
Bowser

become modern - when they ran out of original Penn Line
frames (and

switched to brass)?

Are any manufacturers off the list forever and for what
reasons? If a

new manufacturer picked up older tooling and continued to
produce, is it

vintage (Life Like for example, in various incarnations in
the 60's and

70's).

Guys - any thoughts?

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Group: vintageHO	Message: 25408	From: Ken Starcher	Date: 5/7/2016
Subject: Re: When does a train become vintage?

On Wed, 5/4/16, Jim Waterman Watermaj@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: [vintageHO] When does a train become vintage?
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, May 4, 2016, 6:50 AM

Hey Ray and all,

In the car world, it's an antique at 25 years old. But
it's still hard

to call a 1990 Chevy and antigue, let alone a classic. (Some
will

disagree, but they still seem like modern cars).

When do we move the clock forward on what is vintage?

As an example, it seems like the early Atlas/Roco stuff
would not

qualify but some was made in the late 70's. I can't
seem to get it in my

mind that it is 'antique', even though it's over
35 years old at this

point. At what point is Athearn NOT vintage? After rubber
band drive?

Some version of their drive train? A time cut off? When does
Bowser

become modern - when they ran out of original Penn Line
frames (and

switched to brass)?

Are any manufacturers off the list forever and for what
reasons? If a

new manufacturer picked up older tooling and continued to
produce, is it

vintage (Life Like for example, in various incarnations in
the 60's and

70's).

Guys - any thoughts?

#yiv1888297024 #yiv1888297024 --
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Group: vintageHO	Message: 25409	From: Ken Starcher	Date: 5/7/2016
Subject: Re: When does a train become vintage?

On Wed, 5/4/16, Jim Waterman Watermaj@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: [vintageHO] When does a train become vintage?
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, May 4, 2016, 6:50 AM

Hey Ray and all,

In the car world, it's an antique at 25 years old. But
it's still hard

to call a 1990 Chevy and antigue, let alone a classic. (Some
will

disagree, but they still seem like modern cars).

When do we move the clock forward on what is vintage?

As an example, it seems like the early Atlas/Roco stuff
would not

qualify but some was made in the late 70's. I can't
seem to get it in my

mind that it is 'antique', even though it's over
35 years old at this

point. At what point is Athearn NOT vintage? After rubber
band drive?

Some version of their drive train? A time cut off? When does
Bowser

become modern - when they ran out of original Penn Line
frames (and

switched to brass)?

Are any manufacturers off the list forever and for what
reasons? If a

new manufacturer picked up older tooling and continued to
produce, is it

vintage (Life Like for example, in various incarnations in
the 60's and

70's).

Guys - any thoughts?

#yiv1888297024 #yiv1888297024 --
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Group: vintageHO	Message: 25410	From: rick flaherty	Date: 5/7/2016
Subject: Re: When does a train become vintage?

Attachments :

Bugs P-38[13].png

Rick

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits". Albert Einstein

From: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of "Ken Starcher ohiocanal@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Reply-To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Saturday, May 7, 2016 at 2:01 PM
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] When does a train become vintage?

On Wed, 5/4/16, Jim Waterman Watermaj@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: [vintageHO] When does a train become vintage?
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, May 4, 2016, 6:50 AM

Hey Ray and all,

In the car world, it's an antique at 25 years old. But
it's still hard

to call a 1990 Chevy and antigue, let alone a classic. (Some
will

disagree, but they still seem like modern cars).

When do we move the clock forward on what is vintage?

As an example, it seems like the early Atlas/Roco stuff
would not

qualify but some was made in the late 70's. I can't
seem to get it in my

mind that it is 'antique', even though it's over
35 years old at this

point. At what point is Athearn NOT vintage? After rubber
band drive?

Some version of their drive train? A time cut off? When does
Bowser

become modern - when they ran out of original Penn Line
frames (and

switched to brass)?

Are any manufacturers off the list forever and for what
reasons? If a

new manufacturer picked up older tooling and continued to
produce, is it

vintage (Life Like for example, in various incarnations in
the 60's and

70's).

Guys - any thoughts?

#yiv1888297024 #yiv1888297024 --
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@@attachment@@

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25411	From: Ken Starcher	Date: 5/7/2016
Subject: Re: When does a train become vintage?

That is weird. Why did it post 3 times? And it shouldn't have shown my address. Weird.

Ken A Starcher

--------------------------------------------

On Sat, 5/7/16, Ken Starcher ohiocanal@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] When does a train become vintage?
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, May 7, 2016, 5:02 PM

If I'm buying it, it's just an old,
outdated train. If I'm selling, it is a rare vintage
classic. <grin>

Ken A Starcher

--------------------------------------------

On Wed, 5/4/16, Jim Waterman Watermaj@...
[vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: [vintageHO] When does a train become vintage?

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Date: Wednesday, May 4, 2016, 6:50 AM

Hey Ray and all,

In the car world, it's an antique at 25 years old.
But

it's still hard

to call a 1990 Chevy and antigue, let alone a classic.
(Some

will

disagree, but they still seem like modern cars).

When do we move the clock forward on what is vintage?

As an example, it seems like the early Atlas/Roco stuff

would not

qualify but some was made in the late 70's. I
can't

seem to get it in my

mind that it is 'antique', even though it's
over

35 years old at this

point. At what point is Athearn NOT vintage? After
rubber

band drive?

Some version of their drive train? A time cut off? When
does

Bowser

become modern - when they ran out of original Penn Line

frames (and

switched to brass)?

Are any manufacturers off the list forever and for what

reasons? If a

new manufacturer picked up older tooling and continued
to

produce, is it

vintage (Life Like for example, in various incarnations
in

the 60's and

70's).

Guys - any thoughts?

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Group: vintageHO	Message: 25412	From: rick flaherty	Date: 5/7/2016
Subject: Re: When does a train become vintage?

http://www.ebay.com/bhp/west-bend-4-qt-slow-cooker

From: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of "Graeme graeme@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>

Reply-To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Thursday, May 5, 2016 at 11:53 PM
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: When does a train become vintage?

In message <572C39C4.9020106@...>, "Dale Smith dalefsmith@...
[vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> writes

>
>As to trains, for someone in his 70's, vintage is what I had as a
>teenager and earlier. I may not be able to define it, but, as Justice
>Stewart once said, "I know it when I see it."

Agreed :-)

Everyone has their own definitions, it seems, but, FWIW, here are mine :

Pre WWI antique

WWI to WWII Pre War

WWII to 1969/70 Post War

1970 to today Modern
--
Graeme, Scotland

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25413	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 5/7/2016
Subject: Re: When does a train become vintage?

This is still not an easy question to answer, even after receiving Don's revision of this, but I'll take another stab at addressing these particular issues. For starters though, with model railroad items, it's not as simple as assigning automobiles to a certain cut-off date, and then too, since much of the consideration of what's "vintage" is attributed to the "style of modeling" as Don points out, this mainly craftsman style of construction that's associated with what constitutes a vintage model doesn't just end for all manufacturers in one certain year.

Various manufacturers continued their own certain style of construction independent of other manufacturers, yet each of these same manufacturers incorporated their own -- or similar -- craftsman style construction which is noted to be vintage. Now, getting to "continuation" or "evolution" of models, it's sometimes difficult to draw the line but as concerns Mantua, I believe everyone is in agreement that their pre-War and post-War formed brass steam engines are all vintage. I think we should also agree that the all cast-metal locos with gear boxes drives are also vintage. I would even go so far as to include the all-cast-metal (w/metal cab, metal front end detail [pilot,etc.] and metal tender) Mantua also vintage despite having the exposed spur gear on the axle.

When things changed from there, I no longer saw this line as being vintage. Plastic cab, plastic front end and plastic tender changes it all more than enough, from being vintage. In general, and I'll use this term loosely, it might appear -- at times -- that when a manufacturing line is sold or has changed hands, it's no long the vintage line that it once was despite the fact that the line may still retain the same construction style. While craftsman construction may help denote a vintage model, I don't believe their later knock-off counterparts of these same models should enjoy this vintage designation. The Main Line, Silver Streak, L-W, A-C, Binkley and other reproduction produced by Ye Olde Huff 'N Puff in the 1980's just do not constitute a vintage designation as I see it. The same goes for Mantua, especially when they changed hands a number of times between being "Mantua" and "Tyco." I don't see Tyco as being vintage, and I especially don't see the later Mantua, after Tyco, as being vintage, even though I was glad to see John Tyler once more in command..

As for Lew English's Bowser Manufacturing Co., while he no longer manufactured the cast brass/bronze boilered (Knapp) Mountain loco, the zamak M1 Mountain he did offer into the early 1970's was in close design to Bill Bowser's Mountain, even if not the same appearance. Then too, when Lew English bought out his portion (along with Sol Kramer buying the other portion) of Bob Faust's Penn Line company on January 29, 1964, he made no changes to them for a good while and I would think this line should still remain as "vintage" up until the time that English changed the frames from cast metal to pressed brass. "Evolutionary Improvements," depending on their extent, changes a model from being vintage to one not being able to continue being vintage -- as I see it, even if it's not considered "modern." To change all of the frames on his Bowser models to brass is a major change.

The original Hobbytown of Boston models were at one time vintage when they first started out. After making major changes, I don't believe they would still be considered as being vintage as now those same models were different enough from their original production so as to be notably altered. The flywheel drive being one of these major alterations from vintage. As for clutches, this is a minor alteration that was most often chosen by the modeler as an aftermarket addition, bought from sources other than Hobbytown if it wanted to be added.

As I see it, "Evolutionary" models should not be considered as vintage, since evolved models no longer resemble the original vintage models. I don't even see why evolving models should be considered for vintage as they've often changed to a large degree. "Basic" (to vintage) design is not the same as fully original design when the drive has been changed, and even while a set date does not involve vintage models, I can't think of any model produced after 2000 as having the same design as any vintage model.

While most of us probably have our own preferences in vintage models, we can't discriminate some vintage models from others just because of this. I too prefer wood/metal cars, but we cannot omit early plastic cars from being considered vintage. There were some vintage models that were made of cardstock and wood, but with a plastic roof. Such were Lehigh Models. There as a line of early plastic Mantua reefers with lithographed pressed metal sides. I own and run (operate - < g

>) a number of early Athearn plastic cars as being vintage even

though I have all of Athearn's metal cars with about 95% of their road numbers. G.F. Menzies metal cars are reproductions, yet I still bought them (yes, many use the same Athearn produced sides). D.J. Baker, the same thing and Park Varieties the same also, although Franklin Brua did all his own, different roadnames.

Many of the Walthers Silver Streak and Ulrich models of the 1970's may be the "same" as the original vintage Pacific HO (Silver Streak) and Ulrich models of the previous decade, but they're actually reproductions -- same as Ye Olde Huff 'N Puff reproduced model's of other early manufacturers in the 1980's, but I don't see these as "vintage;" they're not the same Pacific HO. Yeah, like you, I'd like to see them as vintage, but when I consider that they bought out the earlier manufacturers and then continued to reproduce their same lines of models, I can only see them as that -- reproductions." This is not to say that I don't collect them and run them, as I do (and I'm glad I have them) because it's difficult to find all of the original Pacific HO models first produced. Once built and put on the rails, it's next to impossible to tell the difference, but when they go back in the box, they go back in a Walthers box. If Don wants to describe these (and Ye Olde Huff 'N Puff) as vintage, I'll certainly be glad to go along with that, but I wouldn't have thought so otherwise.

Again, aptly put -- " I'll know it when I see it."

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 5/6/2016 9:40:42 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

My feeling is PRE plastic or possibly the early partial plastic.

I prefer the zinc diecast locomotives and the wood/metal cars.

I hate Athearn plastic cars but I can tolerate the MDC Old Timer plastic cars.

LaBelle wood car kits are still in production but assembling one today is the same as it was 40 years ago.

Even the Walther's Silver Streak and Ulrich kits are the same as they were back in the 60's.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: Dennis Kunkel dtkunkel@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2016 12:39 PM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] When does a train become vintage?

My question on this subject is the "continuation" or "evolution" models. For instance, Mantua, which was built over a number of decades. We can certainly agree that the early brass boiler Pacifics and Atlantics are vintage. Then we get into the die-cast Mantuas. The first die-cast Mikados and Pacifics had all die-cast metal boilers, including the cab, and a die-cast metal tender. Given their age, they would be classified as vintage. These models then evolved over time, up to and including the Model Power versions. The cabs and tenders became plastic, gearboxes gave way to a worm on a DC70 (DC60?) motor, then the small Mantua motor, and eventually a can motor and gearbox. At what point in this evolution did the models cease to be vintage? The latest iterations are fundamentally the same models they were back in the 1960's.

The same is true for Bowser. The original Bowsers from Redlands - vintage. When Bowser was sold to Lew English in 1961 and moved to Pennsylvania, production of the models continued. Brass boilers gave way to die-cast, and many other evolutionary improvements were made over the years. What criteria can be used to distinguish a vintage Bowser from a modern Bowser? There seems to be agreement that Penn Line is vintage. Bowser bought Penn Line in 1963 and the Penn Line models continued as Bowser models, with continuous evolutionary improvements. There is not a great deal of difference between a Penn Line locomotive and the equivalent Bowser locomotive at the end of production of the Bowser steam locomotive line, other than evolutionary improvements.

Another manufacturer is Hobbytown. Hobbytown drives have been around long enough for at least the earliest ones to be classified as vintage, based on age. The basic design of the drives, with helical gearing in the trucks, did not change significantly over the lifetime of Hobbytown, through Bear Locomotive. The huge DC90 motors gave way to smaller motors and eventually can motors. The gear tower moved from outboard to inboard on the trucks. Flywheels were introduced. Clutches were briefly part of the drivetrain. All evolutionary improvements. Where is the cutoff between vintage and modern?

Should all of the "evolutionary" models be considered as vintage, even those produced after 2000, if they employ the same basic design as the vintage models?

Dennis Kunkel

From: "'John Hagen' sprinthag@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 4, 2016 12:55 PM
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] When does a train become vintage?

Well,

2015 is “vintage.” Trying to define it is a tad on the improbable side. But I would personally consider anything that is no longer available, had some sort of significance, was not made in the thousands and appeals to me as vintage. Now this means that vintage would be many things to many people. But what it means on this group is something else.

This does come up from time to time. Me thinks it is best for Don Dellmann, list owner, to set the parameters. He has done so in the past but what they were and/or when they were posted --------?

The groups home page states;

“Group Description

This is the place for those who collect and RUN that wonderful vintage HO from the early 1960's and before.

Does the thought of Varney, Penn Line, Megow, Kasiner, Blue Line, Lionel HO, Ulrich, American Beauty, Hobbyline, Marx, Revell, etc. etc. make your heart beat faster? This is the place for you.

Athearn Metal cars, MDC back when they really WERE "diecast", Walthers metal passenger cars, all are "on topic" here.

The models us "olde pharts" grew up with, the wood and metal, and even cardstock kits. The pioneering plastic models, all the heritage that made model railroading the greatest hobby in the world.

Join us as we go back to those thrilling days of yesteryear.”

Maybe Don will post an undated version and put it in a file folder so we can direct inquirers to it in the future?

John Hagen

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25414	From: William Murray	Date: 5/7/2016
Subject: Re: Hello I am a new member

Well, isn't that the idea ? We create our own world, of which we are the masters.

On Saturday, May 7, 2016 10:18 AM, "ckinzer@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

I think they may be referring to a bit different sort of “play”. The article focuses on play with others.

So model railroading may help relationships with other model railroaders. But I doubt that a weekend spent playing with trains in the basement is going to help anyone’s spousal relationship.

I’m afraid that model railroading is the sort of hobby that is more likely to shut family and most friends out of the that particular play picture.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Windows Mail

From: corlissbs@... [vintageHO]
Sent: ‎Saturday‎, ‎May‎ ‎7‎, ‎2016 ‎7‎:‎56‎ ‎AM
To: corlissbs@... [vintageHO]

FWIW : http://www.helpguide.org/articles/emotional-health/benefits-of-play-for-adults.htm Ed Weldon

“…..she says oh, your playing trains. I just can't win.” Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

“Well I don't know about you guys but I play with my toys. william.murray

“we don't just play with toys“ Ray Wetzel

“My wife says that I play with my toys.” Brad Smith

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25415	From: William Murray	Date: 5/7/2016
Subject: Re: When does a train become vintage?

Where do you live in Seattle? I lived there in 65, had an apt on 9th and Cherry, near the cathedral, I worked at the old federal office bldg at 1st and Cherry. I remember the long but easy walk downhill to go to work, and the long uphill climb to go home. Sometimes when I wasn't up to it, I would have to take a bus downtown and another bus uphill! I looked at Seattle on google earth recently and it is almost unrecognizable. I took the GN Empire builder home, thru the rockies, very beautiful.

On Saturday, May 7, 2016 2:39 PM, "eriepacific@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Sent this over 5 hours ago, but Yahoo never posted it.  My apologies if you receive this twice.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 5/7/2016 10:40:39 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, EriePacific@... writes:

This is still not an easy question to answer, even after receiving Don's revision of this, but I'll take another stab at addressing these particular issues. For starters though, with model railroad items, it's not as simple as assigning automobiles to a certain cut-off date, and then too, since much of the consideration of what's "vintage" is attributed to the "style of modeling" as Don points out, this mainly craftsman style of construction that's associated with what constitutes a vintage model doesn't just end for all manufacturers in one certain year.

Various manufacturers continued their own certain style of construction independent of other manufacturers, yet each of these same manufacturers incorporated their own -- or similar -- craftsman style construction which is noted to be vintage. Now, getting to "continuation" or "evolution" of models, it's sometimes difficult to draw the line but as concerns Mantua, I believe everyone is in agreement that their pre-War and post-War formed brass steam engines are all vintage. I think we should also agree that the all cast-metal locos with gear boxes drives are also vintage. I would even go so far as to include the all-cast-metal (w/metal cab, metal front end detail [pilot,etc.] and metal tender) Mantua also vintage despite having the exposed spur gear on the axle.

When things changed from there, I no longer saw this line as being vintage. Plastic cab, plastic front end and plastic tender changes it all more than enough, from being vintage. In general, and I'll use this term loosely, it might appear -- at times -- that when a manufacturing line is sold or has changed hands, it's no long the vintage line that it once was despite the fact that the line may still retain the same construction style. While craftsman construction may help denote a vintage model, I don't believe their later knock-off counterparts of these same models should enjoy this vintage designation. The Main Line, Silver Streak, L-W, A-C, Binkley and other reproduction produced by Ye Olde Huff 'N Puff in the 1980's just do not constitute a vintage designation as I see it. The same goes for Mantua, especially when they changed hands a number of times between being "Mantua" and "Tyco." I don't see Tyco as being vintage, and I especially don't see the later Mantua, after Tyco, as being vintage, even though I was glad to see John Tyler once more in command..

As for Lew English's Bowser Manufacturing Co., while he no longer manufactured the cast brass/bronze boilered (Knapp) Mountain loco, the zamak M1 Mountain he did offer into the early 1970's was in close design to Bill Bowser's Mountain, even if not the same appearance. Then too, when Lew English bought out his portion (along with Sol Kramer buying the other portion) of Bob Faust's Penn Line company on January 29, 1964, he made no changes to them for a good while and I would think this line should still remain as "vintage" up until the time that English changed the frames from cast metal to pressed brass. "Evolutionary Improvements," depending on their extent, changes a model from being vintage to one not being able to continue being vintage -- as I see it, even if it's not considered "modern." To change all of the frames on his Bowser models to brass is a major change.

The original Hobbytown of Boston models were at one time vintage when they first started out. After making major changes, I don't believe they would still be considered as being vintage as now those same models were different enough from their original production so as to be notably altered. The flywheel drive being one of these major alterations from vintage. As for clutches, this is a minor alteration that was most often chosen by the modeler as an aftermarket addition, bought from sources other than Hobbytown if it wanted to be added.

As I see it, "Evolutionary" models should not be considered as vintage, since evolved models no longer resemble the original vintage models. I don't even see why evolving models should be considered for vintage as they've often changed to a large degree. "Basic" (to vintage) design is not the same as fully original design when the drive has been changed, and even while a set date does not involve vintage models, I can't think of any model produced after 2000 as having the same design as any vintage model.

While most of us probably have our own preferences in vintage models, we can't discriminate some vintage models from others just because of this. I too prefer wood/metal cars, but we cannot omit early plastic cars from being considered vintage. There were some vintage models that were made of cardstock and wood, but with a plastic roof. Such were Lehigh Models. There as a line of early plastic Mantua reefers with lithographed pressed metal sides.  I own and run (operate - < g >) a number of early Athearn plastic cars as being vintage even though I have all of Athearn's metal cars with about 95% of their road numbers. G.F. Menzies metal cars are reproductions, yet I still bought them (yes, many use the same Athearn produced sides). D.J. Baker, the same thing and Park Varieties the same also, although Franklin Brua did all his own, different roadnames.

Many of the Walthers Silver Streak and Ulrich models of the 1970's may be the "same" as the original vintage Pacific HO (Silver Streak) and Ulrich models of the previous decade, but they're actually reproductions -- same as Ye Olde Huff 'N Puff reproduced model's of other early manufacturers in the 1980's, but I don't see these as "vintage;" they're not the same Pacific HO. Yeah, like you, I'd like to see them as vintage, but when I consider that they bought out the earlier manufacturers and then continued to reproduce their same lines of models, I can only see them as that -- reproductions." This is not to say that I don't collect them and run them, as I do (and I'm glad I have them) because it's difficult to find all of the original Pacific HO models first produced. Once built and put on the rails, it's next to impossible to tell the difference, but when they go back in the box, they go back in a Walthers box. If Don wants to describe these (and Ye Olde Huff 'N Puff) as vintage, I'll certainly be glad to go along with that, but I wouldn't have thought so otherwise.

Again, aptly put -- " I'll know it when I see it."

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 5/6/2016 9:40:42 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

My feeling is PRE plastic or possibly the early partial plastic.

I prefer the zinc diecast locomotives and the wood/metal cars.

I hate Athearn plastic cars but I can tolerate the MDC Old Timer plastic cars.

LaBelle wood car kits are still in production but assembling one today is the same as it was 40 years ago.

Even the Walther's Silver Streak and Ulrich kits are the same as they were back in the 60's.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: Dennis Kunkel dtkunkel@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2016 12:39 PM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] When does a train become vintage?

My question on this subject is the "continuation" or "evolution" models. For instance, Mantua, which was built over a number of decades. We can certainly agree that the early brass boiler Pacifics and Atlantics are vintage. Then we get into the die-cast Mantuas. The first die-cast Mikados and Pacifics had all die-cast metal boilers, including the cab, and a die-cast metal tender. Given their age, they would be classified as vintage. These models then evolved over time, up to and including the Model Power versions. The cabs and tenders became plastic, gearboxes gave way to a worm on a DC70 (DC60?) motor, then the small Mantua motor, and eventually a can motor and gearbox. At what point in this evolution did the models cease to be vintage? The latest iterations are fundamentally the same models they were back in the 1960's.

The same is true for Bowser. The original Bowsers from Redlands - vintage. When Bowser was sold to Lew English in 1961 and moved to Pennsylvania, production of the models continued. Brass boilers gave way to die-cast, and many other evolutionary improvements were made over the years. What criteria can be used to distinguish a vintage Bowser from a modern Bowser? There seems to be agreement that Penn Line is vintage. Bowser bought Penn Line in 1963 and the Penn Line models continued as Bowser models, with continuous evolutionary improvements. There is not a great deal of difference between a Penn Line locomotive and the equivalent Bowser locomotive at the end of production of the Bowser steam locomotive line, other than evolutionary improvements.

Another manufacturer is Hobbytown. Hobbytown drives have been around long enough for at least the earliest ones to be classified as vintage, based on age. The basic design of the drives, with helical gearing in the trucks, did not change significantly over the lifetime of Hobbytown, through Bear Locomotive. The huge DC90 motors gave way to smaller motors and eventually can motors. The gear tower moved from outboard to inboard on the trucks. Flywheels were introduced. Clutches were briefly part of the drivetrain. All evolutionary improvements. Where is the cutoff between vintage and modern?

Should all of the "evolutionary" models be considered as vintage, even those produced after 2000, if they employ the same basic design as the vintage models?

Dennis Kunkel

From: "'John Hagen' sprinthag@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 4, 2016 12:55 PM
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] When does a train become vintage?

Well,

2015 is “vintage.” Trying to define it is a tad on the improbable side. But I would personally consider anything that is no longer available, had some sort of significance, was not made in the thousands and appeals to me as vintage. Now this means that vintage would be many things to many people. But what it means on this group is something else.

This does come up from time to time. Me thinks it is best for Don Dellmann, list owner, to set the parameters. He has done so in the past but what they were and/or when they were posted --------?

The groups home page states;

“Group Description

This is the place for those who collect and RUN that wonderful vintage HO from the early 1960's and before.

Does the thought of Varney, Penn Line, Megow, Kasiner, Blue Line, Lionel HO, Ulrich, American Beauty, Hobbyline, Marx, Revell, etc. etc. make your heart beat faster? This is the place for you.

Athearn Metal cars, MDC back when they really WERE "diecast", Walthers metal passenger cars, all are "on topic" here.

The models us "olde pharts" grew up with, the wood and metal, and even cardstock kits. The pioneering plastic models, all the heritage that made model railroading the greatest hobby in the world.

Join us as we go back to those thrilling days of yesteryear.”

Maybe Don will post an undated version and put it in a file folder so we can direct inquirers to it in the future?

John Hagen

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25416	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 5/8/2016
Subject: Re: When does a train become vintage?

Hi Bill,

This appears to be sent by you, unless I'm mistaken. I was just wondering who you're addressing here as there are four members who've posted here, yet your message is appearing above mine as the last message sent. Please know that I don't live in Seattle, nor ever stated that I did. I've lived in New Jersey all of my life. Perhaps you may have even intended to write this to another group but mistakenly wrote it here, as I see no mention of Seattle by any of the other members below (?). I would imagine that a ride on the GN Empire Builder through the Rockies must have been breathtaking though.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 5/8/2016 12:23:39 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Where do you live in Seattle? I lived there in 65, had an apt on 9th and Cherry, near the cathedral, I worked at the old federal office bldg at 1st and Cherry. I remember the long but easy walk downhill to go to work, and the long uphill climb to go home. Sometimes when I wasn't up to it, I would have to take a bus downtown and another bus uphill! I looked at Seattle on google earth recently and it is almost unrecognizable. I took the GN Empire builder home, thru the rockies, very beautiful.

On Saturday, May 7, 2016 2:39 PM, "eriepacific@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Sent this over 5 hours ago, but Yahoo never posted it.  My apologies if you receive this twice.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 5/7/2016 10:40:39 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, EriePacific@... writes:

This is still not an easy question to answer, even after receiving Don's revision of this, but I'll take another stab at addressing these particular issues. For starters though, with model railroad items, it's not as simple as assigning automobiles to a certain cut-off date, and then too, since much of the consideration of what's "vintage" is attributed to the "style of modeling" as Don points out, this mainly craftsman style of construction that's associated with what constitutes a vintage model doesn't just end for all manufacturers in one certain year.

Various manufacturers continued their own certain style of construction independent of other manufacturers, yet each of these same manufacturers incorporated their own -- or similar -- craftsman style construction which is noted to be vintage. Now, getting to "continuation" or "evolution" of models, it's sometimes difficult to draw the line but as concerns Mantua, I believe everyone is in agreement that their pre-War and post-War formed brass steam engines are all vintage. I think we should also agree that the all cast-metal locos with gear boxes drives are also vintage. I would even go so far as to include the all-cast-metal (w/metal cab, metal front end detail [pilot,etc.] and metal tender) Mantua also vintage despite having the exposed spur gear on the axle.

When things changed from there, I no longer saw this line as being vintage. Plastic cab, plastic front end and plastic tender changes it all more than enough, from being vintage. In general, and I'll use this term loosely, it might appear -- at times -- that when a manufacturing line is sold or has changed hands, it's no long the vintage line that it once was despite the fact that the line may still retain the same construction style. While craftsman construction may help denote a vintage model, I don't believe their later knock-off counterparts of these same models should enjoy this vintage designation. The Main Line, Silver Streak, L-W, A-C, Binkley and other reproduction produced by Ye Olde Huff 'N Puff in the 1980's just do not constitute a vintage designation as I see it. The same goes for Mantua, especially when they changed hands a number of times between being "Mantua" and "Tyco." I don't see Tyco as being vintage, and I especially don't see the later Mantua, after Tyco, as being vintage, even though I was glad to see John Tyler once more in command..

As for Lew English's Bowser Manufacturing Co., while he no longer manufactured the cast brass/bronze boilered (Knapp) Mountain loco, the zamak M1 Mountain he did offer into the early 1970's was in close design to Bill Bowser's Mountain, even if not the same appearance. Then too, when Lew English bought out his portion (along with Sol Kramer buying the other portion) of Bob Faust's Penn Line company on January 29, 1964, he made no changes to them for a good while and I would think this line should still remain as "vintage" up until the time that English changed the frames from cast metal to pressed brass. "Evolutionary Improvements," depending on their extent, changes a model from being vintage to one not being able to continue being vintage -- as I see it, even if it's not considered "modern." To change all of the frames on his Bowser models to brass is a major change.

The original Hobbytown of Boston models were at one time vintage when they first started out. After making major changes, I don't believe they would still be considered as being vintage as now those same models were different enough from their original production so as to be notably altered. The flywheel drive being one of these major alterations from vintage. As for clutches, this is a minor alteration that was most often chosen by the modeler as an aftermarket addition, bought from sources other than Hobbytown if it wanted to be added.

As I see it, "Evolutionary" models should not be considered as vintage, since evolved models no longer resemble the original vintage models. I don't even see why evolving models should be considered for vintage as they've often changed to a large degree. "Basic" (to vintage) design is not the same as fully original design when the drive has been changed, and even while a set date does not involve vintage models, I can't think of any model produced after 2000 as having the same design as any vintage model.

While most of us probably have our own preferences in vintage models, we can't discriminate some vintage models from others just because of this. I too prefer wood/metal cars, but we cannot omit early plastic cars from being considered vintage. There were some vintage models that were made of cardstock and wood, but with a plastic roof. Such were Lehigh Models. There as a line of early plastic Mantua reefers with lithographed pressed metal sides.  I own and run (operate - < g >) a number of early Athearn plastic cars as being vintage even though I have all of Athearn's metal cars with about 95% of their road numbers. G.F. Menzies metal cars are reproductions, yet I still bought them (yes, many use the same Athearn produced sides). D.J. Baker, the same thing and Park Varieties the same also, although Franklin Brua did all his own, different roadnames.

Many of the Walthers Silver Streak and Ulrich models of the 1970's may be the "same" as the original vintage Pacific HO (Silver Streak) and Ulrich models of the previous decade, but they're actually reproductions -- same as Ye Olde Huff 'N Puff reproduced model's of other early manufacturers in the 1980's, but I don't see these as "vintage;" they're not the same Pacific HO. Yeah, like you, I'd like to see them as vintage, but when I consider that they bought out the earlier manufacturers and then continued to reproduce their same lines of models, I can only see them as that -- reproductions." This is not to say that I don't collect them and run them, as I do (and I'm glad I have them) because it's difficult to find all of the original Pacific HO models first produced. Once built and put on the rails, it's next to impossible to tell the difference, but when they go back in the box, they go back in a Walthers box. If Don wants to describe these (and Ye Olde Huff 'N Puff) as vintage, I'll certainly be glad to go along with that, but I wouldn't have thought so otherwise.

Again, aptly put -- " I'll know it when I see it."

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 5/6/2016 9:40:42 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

My feeling is PRE plastic or possibly the early partial plastic.

I prefer the zinc diecast locomotives and the wood/metal cars.

I hate Athearn plastic cars but I can tolerate the MDC Old Timer plastic cars.

LaBelle wood car kits are still in production but assembling one today is the same as it was 40 years ago.

Even the Walther's Silver Streak and Ulrich kits are the same as they were back in the 60's.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: Dennis Kunkel dtkunkel@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2016 12:39 PM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] When does a train become vintage?

My question on this subject is the "continuation" or "evolution" models. For instance, Mantua, which was built over a number of decades. We can certainly agree that the early brass boiler Pacifics and Atlantics are vintage. Then we get into the die-cast Mantuas. The first die-cast Mikados and Pacifics had all die-cast metal boilers, including the cab, and a die-cast metal tender. Given their age, they would be classified as vintage. These models then evolved over time, up to and including the Model Power versions. The cabs and tenders became plastic, gearboxes gave way to a worm on a DC70 (DC60?) motor, then the small Mantua motor, and eventually a can motor and gearbox. At what point in this evolution did the models cease to be vintage? The latest iterations are fundamentally the same models they were back in the 1960's.

The same is true for Bowser. The original Bowsers from Redlands - vintage. When Bowser was sold to Lew English in 1961 and moved to Pennsylvania, production of the models continued. Brass boilers gave way to die-cast, and many other evolutionary improvements were made over the years. What criteria can be used to distinguish a vintage Bowser from a modern Bowser? There seems to be agreement that Penn Line is vintage. Bowser bought Penn Line in 1963 and the Penn Line models continued as Bowser models, with continuous evolutionary improvements. There is not a great deal of difference between a Penn Line locomotive and the equivalent Bowser locomotive at the end of production of the Bowser steam locomotive line, other than evolutionary improvements.

Another manufacturer is Hobbytown. Hobbytown drives have been around long enough for at least the earliest ones to be classified as vintage, based on age. The basic design of the drives, with helical gearing in the trucks, did not change significantly over the lifetime of Hobbytown, through Bear Locomotive. The huge DC90 motors gave way to smaller motors and eventually can motors. The gear tower moved from outboard to inboard on the trucks. Flywheels were introduced. Clutches were briefly part of the drivetrain. All evolutionary improvements. Where is the cutoff between vintage and modern?

Should all of the "evolutionary" models be considered as vintage, even those produced after 2000, if they employ the same basic design as the vintage models?

Dennis Kunkel

From: "'John Hagen' sprinthag@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 4, 2016 12:55 PM
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] When does a train become vintage?

Well,

2015 is “vintage.” Trying to define it is a tad on the improbable side. But I would personally consider anything that is no longer available, had some sort of significance, was not made in the thousands and appeals to me as vintage. Now this means that vintage would be many things to many people. But what it means on this group is something else.

This does come up from time to time. Me thinks it is best for Don Dellmann, list owner, to set the parameters. He has done so in the past but what they were and/or when they were posted --------?

The groups home page states;

“Group Description

This is the place for those who collect and RUN that wonderful vintage HO from the early 1960's and before.

Does the thought of Varney, Penn Line, Megow, Kasiner, Blue Line, Lionel HO, Ulrich, American Beauty, Hobbyline, Marx, Revell, etc. etc. make your heart beat faster? This is the place for you.

Athearn Metal cars, MDC back when they really WERE "diecast", Walthers metal passenger cars, all are "on topic" here.

The models us "olde pharts" grew up with, the wood and metal, and even cardstock kits. The pioneering plastic models, all the heritage that made model railroading the greatest hobby in the world.

Join us as we go back to those thrilling days of yesteryear.”

Maybe Don will post an undated version and put it in a file folder so we can direct inquirers to it in the future?

John Hagen

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25417	From: Bob Macklin	Date: 5/8/2016
Subject: Re: When does a train become vintage?

I live in Kent, Wa. about 25 miles south of Seattle. In 1941 I did live on Capital Hill in Seattle.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2016 4:43 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] When does a train become vintage?

Hi Bill,

This appears to be sent by you, unless I'm mistaken. I was just wondering who you're addressing here as there are four members who've posted here, yet your message is appearing above mine as the last message sent. Please know that I don't live in Seattle, nor ever stated that I did. I've lived in New Jersey all of my life. Perhaps you may have even intended to write this to another group but mistakenly wrote it here, as I see no mention of Seattle by any of the other members below (?). I would imagine that a ride on the GN Empire Builder through the Rockies must have been breathtaking though.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 5/8/2016 12:23:39 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Where do you live in Seattle? I lived there in 65, had an apt on 9th and Cherry, near the cathedral, I worked at the old federal office bldg at 1st and Cherry. I remember the long but easy walk downhill to go to work, and the long uphill climb to go home. Sometimes when I wasn't up to it, I would have to take a bus downtown and another bus uphill! I looked at Seattle on google earth recently and it is almost unrecognizable. I took the GN Empire builder home, thru the rockies, very beautiful.

On Saturday, May 7, 2016 2:39 PM, "eriepacific@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Sent this over 5 hours ago, but Yahoo never posted it.  My apologies if you receive this twice.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 5/7/2016 10:40:39 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, EriePacific@... writes:

This is still not an easy question to answer, even after receiving Don's revision of this, but I'll take another stab at addressing these particular issues. For starters though, with model railroad items, it's not as simple as assigning automobiles to a certain cut-off date, and then too, since much of the consideration of what's "vintage" is attributed to the "style of modeling" as Don points out, this mainly craftsman style of construction that's associated with what constitutes a vintage model doesn't just end for all manufacturers in one certain year.

Various manufacturers continued their own certain style of construction independent of other manufacturers, yet each of these same manufacturers incorporated their own -- or similar -- craftsman style construction which is noted to be vintage. Now, getting to "continuation" or "evolution" of models, it's sometimes difficult to draw the line but as concerns Mantua, I believe everyone is in agreement that their pre-War and post-War formed brass steam engines are all vintage. I think we should also agree that the all cast-metal locos with gear boxes drives are also vintage. I would even go so far as to include the all-cast-metal (w/metal cab, metal front end detail [pilot,etc.] and metal tender) Mantua also vintage despite having the exposed spur gear on the axle.

When things changed from there, I no longer saw this line as being vintage. Plastic cab, plastic front end and plastic tender changes it all more than enough, from being vintage. In general, and I'll use this term loosely, it might appear -- at times -- that when a manufacturing line is sold or has changed hands, it's no long the vintage line that it once was despite the fact that the line may still retain the same construction style. While craftsman construction may help denote a vintage model, I don't believe their later knock-off counterparts of these same models should enjoy this vintage designation. The Main Line, Silver Streak, L-W, A-C, Binkley and other reproduction produced by Ye Olde Huff 'N Puff in the 1980's just do not constitute a vintage designation as I see it. The same goes for Mantua, especially when they changed hands a number of times between being "Mantua" and "Tyco." I don't see Tyco as being vintage, and I especially don't see the later Mantua, after Tyco, as being vintage, even though I was glad to see John Tyler once more in command..

As for Lew English's Bowser Manufacturing Co., while he no longer manufactured the cast brass/bronze boilered (Knapp) Mountain loco, the zamak M1 Mountain he did offer into the early 1970's was in close design to Bill Bowser's Mountain, even if not the same appearance. Then too, when Lew English bought out his portion (along with Sol Kramer buying the other portion) of Bob Faust's Penn Line company on January 29, 1964, he made no changes to them for a good while and I would think this line should still remain as "vintage" up until the time that English changed the frames from cast metal to pressed brass. "Evolutionary Improvements," depending on their extent, changes a model from being vintage to one not being able to continue being vintage -- as I see it, even if it's not considered "modern." To change all of the frames on his Bowser models to brass is a major change.

The original Hobbytown of Boston models were at one time vintage when they first started out. After making major changes, I don't believe they would still be considered as being vintage as now those same models were different enough from their original production so as to be notably altered. The flywheel drive being one of these major alterations from vintage. As for clutches, this is a minor alteration that was most often chosen by the modeler as an aftermarket addition, bought from sources other than Hobbytown if it wanted to be added.

As I see it, "Evolutionary" models should not be considered as vintage, since evolved models no longer resemble the original vintage models. I don't even see why evolving models should be considered for vintage as they've often changed to a large degree. "Basic" (to vintage) design is not the same as fully original design when the drive has been changed, and even while a set date does not involve vintage models, I can't think of any model produced after 2000 as having the same design as any vintage model.

While most of us probably have our own preferences in vintage models, we can't discriminate some vintage models from others just because of this. I too prefer wood/metal cars, but we cannot omit early plastic cars from being considered vintage. There were some vintage models that were made of cardstock and wood, but with a plastic roof. Such were Lehigh Models. There as a line of early plastic Mantua reefers with lithographed pressed metal sides.  I own and run (operate - < g >) a number of early Athearn plastic cars as being vintage even though I have all of Athearn's metal cars with about 95% of their road numbers. G.F. Menzies metal cars are reproductions, yet I still bought them (yes, many use the same Athearn produced sides). D.J. Baker, the same thing and Park Varieties the same also, although Franklin Brua did all his own, different roadnames.

Many of the Walthers Silver Streak and Ulrich models of the 1970's may be the "same" as the original vintage Pacific HO (Silver Streak) and Ulrich models of the previous decade, but they're actually reproductions -- same as Ye Olde Huff 'N Puff reproduced model's of other early manufacturers in the 1980's, but I don't see these as "vintage;" they're not the same Pacific HO. Yeah, like you, I'd like to see them as vintage, but when I consider that they bought out the earlier manufacturers and then continued to reproduce their same lines of models, I can only see them as that -- reproductions." This is not to say that I don't collect them and run them, as I do (and I'm glad I have them) because it's difficult to find all of the original Pacific HO models first produced. Once built and put on the rails, it's next to impossible to tell the difference, but when they go back in the box, they go back in a Walthers box. If Don wants to describe these (and Ye Olde Huff 'N Puff) as vintage, I'll certainly be glad to go along with that, but I wouldn't have thought so otherwise.

Again, aptly put -- " I'll know it when I see it."

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 5/6/2016 9:40:42 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

My feeling is PRE plastic or possibly the early partial plastic.

I prefer the zinc diecast locomotives and the wood/metal cars.

I hate Athearn plastic cars but I can tolerate the MDC Old Timer plastic cars.

LaBelle wood car kits are still in production but assembling one today is the same as it was 40 years ago.

Even the Walther's Silver Streak and Ulrich kits are the same as they were back in the 60's.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: Dennis Kunkel dtkunkel@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2016 12:39 PM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] When does a train become vintage?

My question on this subject is the "continuation" or "evolution" models. For instance, Mantua, which was built over a number of decades. We can certainly agree that the early brass boiler Pacifics and Atlantics are vintage. Then we get into the die-cast Mantuas. The first die-cast Mikados and Pacifics had all die-cast metal boilers, including the cab, and a die-cast metal tender. Given their age, they would be classified as vintage. These models then evolved over time, up to and including the Model Power versions. The cabs and tenders became plastic, gearboxes gave way to a worm on a DC70 (DC60?) motor, then the small Mantua motor, and eventually a can motor and gearbox. At what point in this evolution did the models cease to be vintage? The latest iterations are fundamentally the same models they were back in the 1960's.

The same is true for Bowser. The original Bowsers from Redlands - vintage. When Bowser was sold to Lew English in 1961 and moved to Pennsylvania, production of the models continued. Brass boilers gave way to die-cast, and many other evolutionary improvements were made over the years. What criteria can be used to distinguish a vintage Bowser from a modern Bowser? There seems to be agreement that Penn Line is vintage. Bowser bought Penn Line in 1963 and the Penn Line models continued as Bowser models, with continuous evolutionary improvements. There is not a great deal of difference between a Penn Line locomotive and the equivalent Bowser locomotive at the end of production of the Bowser steam locomotive line, other than evolutionary improvements.

Another manufacturer is Hobbytown. Hobbytown drives have been around long enough for at least the earliest ones to be classified as vintage, based on age. The basic design of the drives, with helical gearing in the trucks, did not change significantly over the lifetime of Hobbytown, through Bear Locomotive. The huge DC90 motors gave way to smaller motors and eventually can motors. The gear tower moved from outboard to inboard on the trucks. Flywheels were introduced. Clutches were briefly part of the drivetrain. All evolutionary improvements. Where is the cutoff between vintage and modern?

Should all of the "evolutionary" models be considered as vintage, even those produced after 2000, if they employ the same basic design as the vintage models?

Dennis Kunkel

From: "'John Hagen' sprinthag@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 4, 2016 12:55 PM
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] When does a train become vintage?

Well,

2015 is “vintage.” Trying to define it is a tad on the improbable side. But I would personally consider anything that is no longer available, had some sort of significance, was not made in the thousands and appeals to me as vintage. Now this means that vintage would be many things to many people. But what it means on this group is something else.

This does come up from time to time. Me thinks it is best for Don Dellmann, list owner, to set the parameters. He has done so in the past but what they were and/or when they were posted --------?

The groups home page states;

“Group Description

This is the place for those who collect and RUN that wonderful vintage HO from the early 1960's and before.

Does the thought of Varney, Penn Line, Megow, Kasiner, Blue Line, Lionel HO, Ulrich, American Beauty, Hobbyline, Marx, Revell, etc. etc. make your heart beat faster? This is the place for you.

Athearn Metal cars, MDC back when they really WERE "diecast", Walthers metal passenger cars, all are "on topic" here.

The models us "olde pharts" grew up with, the wood and metal, and even cardstock kits. The pioneering plastic models, all the heritage that made model railroading the greatest hobby in the world.

Join us as we go back to those thrilling days of yesteryear.”

Maybe Don will post an undated version and put it in a file folder so we can direct inquirers to it in the future?

John Hagen

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25418	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 5/8/2016
Subject: Re: When does a train become vintage?

I think we're blowing a lot of steam over this topic, but my original
group description kind of says it all. There are no hard and fast
rules, "Vintage" is more of a feel.

I also collect old phonograph records (In fact I'm a moderator on "45
worlds" - http://www.45worlds.com/vinyl/ If you care, my name there is
"Trainman") And we had a very similar discussion a few months back in
the "Classical" section on "What is 'Classical' music?". Like here,
there really isn't a hard and fast answer.

If you want a cutoff date, fine. 1970. How's that?

My original thought was early to mid 60's. My first HO was Christmas
1959, and to me "vintage" is anything that was available then (even
though it may have still have been available much later, perhaps even
today). When I run my layout in "Vintage" mode (
https://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/albums/72157631811733918 ) I
try to limit it to locomotives and cars that were available then. For
example, "blue box" Athearn box cars. If the door's slide in guides top
and bottom, OK. "Claw" type doors stay on the shelf. Likewise, screwed
on coupler pocket covers, OK. Clips, No. Athearn F-7's, probably not.
Globes (single headlight, separate number boards) OK regardless what
drive they're riding on, though I'd rather run my Varney F-3's and
Mantua Sharks. Athearn passenger cars with multi-piece bodies,
absolutely, One piece bodies, not really.

It's easier to say what ISN'T, (and an easy way to do that is look for
"china" on the box). Bachmann, pretty much no. Prior to "our" era they
only had the Plasticville buildings (which ARE "on topic). Mantua, yes
(in the early years Mantua was the "kit", Tyco was the same models RTR).
In any brand, if the trucks "snap in" instead of mount with screws,
you can be reasonably sure they are NOT "Vintage"

Control wise, DCC is a definite "no-no" (If you have a decoder in it,
don't tell me <G>) Command control? Astrac, yes, Dynatrol, Zero 1, Trix
EMS etc., probably not

The early "TAT" type transistor throttles were just coming into vogue,
the newer SCR types were later.

I'm not fond of "reproductions" (although we DID do the "Ostuco Decal
Project" here a few years back.

I am not going to be a puckerbutt about it, I think we pretty much know
what's OK and what isn't

--
Don Dellmann
Contact me at:
don.dellmann@...
See my toys at:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25419	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 5/8/2016
Subject: Re: Hello I am a new member

Reminds me of a cartoon in MR years ago. A visitor was asking "What do
you think of yourself as when you run your layout, engineer, dispatcher,
conductor?"

Meanwhile the layout owner was sitting there in an ermine robe and a crown.

Don

Don Dellmann
Contact me at:
don.dellmann@...
See my toys at:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

On 5/7/2016 1:57 PM, William Murray william.murray@...
[vintageHO] wrote:

>
>
> Well, isn't that the idea ? We create our own world, of which we are the
> masters.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25420	From: Donald R. Staton	Date: 5/8/2016
Subject: Re: Hello I am a new member

The greatest satisfaction to me, from my trains, is being able to create and build a world that, when done properly, correctly and with great care, works and functions as it was designed to function... We can create a miniature world that works well... But it takes much planning, work and effort to get there and keep it functioning well. We usually learn lots of useful lessons along the way... And it makes our lives more enjoyable!

Reference the cartoon... He was not a King of his small realm... HE WAS CREATOR and as such must always give it attention to keep it functioning well and as designed.

Happy railroading...

Don Staton in VA.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

On 5/8/2016 10:11 AM, Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... [vintageHO] wrote:

Reminds me of a cartoon in MR years ago. A visitor was asking "What do
you think of yourself as when you run your layout, engineer, dispatcher,
conductor?"

Meanwhile the layout owner was sitting there in an ermine robe and a crown.

Don

Don Dellmann
Contact me at:
don.dellmann@...
See my toys at:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25421	From: Bob Macklin	Date: 5/8/2016
Subject: Re: When does a train become vintage?

The Globe F-7 came out in 1954 or 1955. I have a Globe SP Black Widow I bought at the "Original Whistle Stop" in Pasadena in December 1955. I also have a couple more I got on eBay in the past two years. I conspire these engines VINTAGE. When Athearn put their name on them they were converted to the rubberband drive. In 1955 the Globe F-7s were good running units.

In the 1950's Athearn also sold metal freight cars similar to the ones sold by Varney. They were in the red and white boxes. Were there other cars similar to these. I have not looked for them on eBay because there is so much Athearn Blue Box stuff.

In those days MDC sold freight cars the were made from white metal castings. I think Ulrich made similar cars.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2016 7:08 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] When does a train become vintage?

I think we're blowing a lot of steam over this topic, but my original
group description kind of says it all. There are no hard and fast
rules, "Vintage" is more of a feel.

I also collect old phonograph records (In fact I'm a moderator on "45
worlds" - http://www.45worlds.com/vinyl/ If you care, my name there is
"Trainman") And we had a very similar discussion a few months back in
the "Classical" section on "What is 'Classical' music?". Like here,
there really isn't a hard and fast answer.

If you want a cutoff date, fine. 1970. How's that?

My original thought was early to mid 60's. My first HO was Christmas
1959, and to me "vintage" is anything that was available then (even
though it may have still have been available much later, perhaps even
today). When I run my layout in "Vintage" mode (
https://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/albums/72157631811733918 ) I
try to limit it to locomotives and cars that were available then. For
example, "blue box" Athearn box cars. If the door's slide in guides top
and bottom, OK. "Claw" type doors stay on the shelf. Likewise, screwed
on coupler pocket covers, OK. Clips, No. Athearn F-7's, probably not.
Globes (single headlight, separate number boards) OK regardless what
drive they're riding on, though I'd rather run my Varney F-3's and
Mantua Sharks. Athearn passenger cars with multi-piece bodies,
absolutely, One piece bodies, not really.

It's easier to say what ISN'T, (and an easy way to do that is look for
"china" on the box). Bachmann, pretty much no. Prior to "our" era they
only had the Plasticville buildings (which ARE "on topic). Mantua, yes
(in the early years Mantua was the "kit", Tyco was the same models RTR).
In any brand, if the trucks "snap in" instead of mount with screws,
you can be reasonably sure they are NOT "Vintage"

Control wise, DCC is a definite "no-no" (If you have a decoder in it,
don't tell me <G>) Command control? Astrac, yes, Dynatrol, Zero 1, Trix
EMS etc., probably not

The early "TAT" type transistor throttles were just coming into vogue,
the newer SCR types were later.

I'm not fond of "reproductions" (although we DID do the "Ostuco Decal
Project" here a few years back.

I am not going to be a puckerbutt about it, I think we pretty much know
what's OK and what isn't

--
Don Dellmann
Contact me at:
don.dellmann@...
See my toys at:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25422	From: k5myj	Date: 5/8/2016
Subject: Pseudo Narrow Guage

This is not really vintage except for the modeling period.

For several years I have been building and running pseudo narrow guage trains using Roundhouse "Old Timer" cars and engines.

These are not vintage kits ( but most are old kits) but the period is vintage.

I use almost excusivly Campbell buildings and bridges. They were avalable in the 60's.

I also use LaBelle cars that are mostly wood and were available in the 60's.

Is my Roundhouse 1953 SP 0-6-0 a VINTAGE locomotive. Same question for the ALL METAL Roundhouse 0-6-0T. I don't know the actual date on it but it is PRE PLASTIC!

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25423	From: William Murray	Date: 5/8/2016
Subject: Re: When does a train become vintage?

Sorry, I find this email setup here awkward and have made this mistake before. For all I know I am making it again!

On Sunday, May 8, 2016 6:43 AM, "eriepacific@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Hi Bill,

This appears to be sent by you, unless I'm mistaken. I was just wondering who you're addressing here as there are four members who've posted here, yet your message is appearing above mine as the last message sent. Please know that I don't live in Seattle, nor ever stated that I did. I've lived in New Jersey all of my life. Perhaps you may have even intended to write this to another group but mistakenly wrote it here, as I see no mention of Seattle by any of the other members below (?). I would imagine that a ride on the GN Empire Builder through the Rockies must have been breathtaking though.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 5/8/2016 12:23:39 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Where do you live in Seattle? I lived there in 65, had an apt on 9th and Cherry, near the cathedral, I worked at the old federal office bldg at 1st and Cherry. I remember the long but easy walk downhill to go to work, and the long uphill climb to go home. Sometimes when I wasn't up to it, I would have to take a bus downtown and another bus uphill! I looked at Seattle on google earth recently and it is almost unrecognizable. I took the GN Empire builder home, thru the rockies, very beautiful.

On Saturday, May 7, 2016 2:39 PM, "eriepacific@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Sent this over 5 hours ago, but Yahoo never posted it.  My apologies if you receive this twice.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 5/7/2016 10:40:39 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, EriePacific@... writes:

This is still not an easy question to answer, even after receiving Don's revision of this, but I'll take another stab at addressing these particular issues. For starters though, with model railroad items, it's not as simple as assigning automobiles to a certain cut-off date, and then too, since much of the consideration of what's "vintage" is attributed to the "style of modeling" as Don points out, this mainly craftsman style of construction that's associated with what constitutes a vintage model doesn't just end for all manufacturers in one certain year.

Various manufacturers continued their own certain style of construction independent of other manufacturers, yet each of these same manufacturers incorporated their own -- or similar -- craftsman style construction which is noted to be vintage. Now, getting to "continuation" or "evolution" of models, it's sometimes difficult to draw the line but as concerns Mantua, I believe everyone is in agreement that their pre-War and post-War formed brass steam engines are all vintage. I think we should also agree that the all cast-metal locos with gear boxes drives are also vintage. I would even go so far as to include the all-cast-metal (w/metal cab, metal front end detail [pilot,etc.] and metal tender) Mantua also vintage despite having the exposed spur gear on the axle.

When things changed from there, I no longer saw this line as being vintage. Plastic cab, plastic front end and plastic tender changes it all more than enough, from being vintage. In general, and I'll use this term loosely, it might appear -- at times -- that when a manufacturing line is sold or has changed hands, it's no long the vintage line that it once was despite the fact that the line may still retain the same construction style. While craftsman construction may help denote a vintage model, I don't believe their later knock-off counterparts of these same models should enjoy this vintage designation. The Main Line, Silver Streak, L-W, A-C, Binkley and other reproduction produced by Ye Olde Huff 'N Puff in the 1980's just do not constitute a vintage designation as I see it. The same goes for Mantua, especially when they changed hands a number of times between being "Mantua" and "Tyco." I don't see Tyco as being vintage, and I especially don't see the later Mantua, after Tyco, as being vintage, even though I was glad to see John Tyler once more in command..

As for Lew English's Bowser Manufacturing Co., while he no longer manufactured the cast brass/bronze boilered (Knapp) Mountain loco, the zamak M1 Mountain he did offer into the early 1970's was in close design to Bill Bowser's Mountain, even if not the same appearance. Then too, when Lew English bought out his portion (along with Sol Kramer buying the other portion) of Bob Faust's Penn Line company on January 29, 1964, he made no changes to them for a good while and I would think this line should still remain as "vintage" up until the time that English changed the frames from cast metal to pressed brass. "Evolutionary Improvements," depending on their extent, changes a model from being vintage to one not being able to continue being vintage -- as I see it, even if it's not considered "modern." To change all of the frames on his Bowser models to brass is a major change.

The original Hobbytown of Boston models were at one time vintage when they first started out. After making major changes, I don't believe they would still be considered as being vintage as now those same models were different enough from their original production so as to be notably altered. The flywheel drive being one of these major alterations from vintage. As for clutches, this is a minor alteration that was most often chosen by the modeler as an aftermarket addition, bought from sources other than Hobbytown if it wanted to be added.

As I see it, "Evolutionary" models should not be considered as vintage, since evolved models no longer resemble the original vintage models. I don't even see why evolving models should be considered for vintage as they've often changed to a large degree. "Basic" (to vintage) design is not the same as fully original design when the drive has been changed, and even while a set date does not involve vintage models, I can't think of any model produced after 2000 as having the same design as any vintage model.

While most of us probably have our own preferences in vintage models, we can't discriminate some vintage models from others just because of this. I too prefer wood/metal cars, but we cannot omit early plastic cars from being considered vintage. There were some vintage models that were made of cardstock and wood, but with a plastic roof. Such were Lehigh Models. There as a line of early plastic Mantua reefers with lithographed pressed metal sides.  I own and run (operate - < g >) a number of early Athearn plastic cars as being vintage even though I have all of Athearn's metal cars with about 95% of their road numbers. G.F. Menzies metal cars are reproductions, yet I still bought them (yes, many use the same Athearn produced sides). D.J. Baker, the same thing and Park Varieties the same also, although Franklin Brua did all his own, different roadnames.

Many of the Walthers Silver Streak and Ulrich models of the 1970's may be the "same" as the original vintage Pacific HO (Silver Streak) and Ulrich models of the previous decade, but they're actually reproductions -- same as Ye Olde Huff 'N Puff reproduced model's of other early manufacturers in the 1980's, but I don't see these as "vintage;" they're not the same Pacific HO. Yeah, like you, I'd like to see them as vintage, but when I consider that they bought out the earlier manufacturers and then continued to reproduce their same lines of models, I can only see them as that -- reproductions." This is not to say that I don't collect them and run them, as I do (and I'm glad I have them) because it's difficult to find all of the original Pacific HO models first produced. Once built and put on the rails, it's next to impossible to tell the difference, but when they go back in the box, they go back in a Walthers box. If Don wants to describe these (and Ye Olde Huff 'N Puff) as vintage, I'll certainly be glad to go along with that, but I wouldn't have thought so otherwise.

Again, aptly put -- " I'll know it when I see it."

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 5/6/2016 9:40:42 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

My feeling is PRE plastic or possibly the early partial plastic.

I prefer the zinc diecast locomotives and the wood/metal cars.

I hate Athearn plastic cars but I can tolerate the MDC Old Timer plastic cars.

LaBelle wood car kits are still in production but assembling one today is the same as it was 40 years ago.

Even the Walther's Silver Streak and Ulrich kits are the same as they were back in the 60's.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: Dennis Kunkel dtkunkel@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2016 12:39 PM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] When does a train become vintage?

My question on this subject is the "continuation" or "evolution" models. For instance, Mantua, which was built over a number of decades. We can certainly agree that the early brass boiler Pacifics and Atlantics are vintage. Then we get into the die-cast Mantuas. The first die-cast Mikados and Pacifics had all die-cast metal boilers, including the cab, and a die-cast metal tender. Given their age, they would be classified as vintage. These models then evolved over time, up to and including the Model Power versions. The cabs and tenders became plastic, gearboxes gave way to a worm on a DC70 (DC60?) motor, then the small Mantua motor, and eventually a can motor and gearbox. At what point in this evolution did the models cease to be vintage? The latest iterations are fundamentally the same models they were back in the 1960's.

The same is true for Bowser. The original Bowsers from Redlands - vintage. When Bowser was sold to Lew English in 1961 and moved to Pennsylvania, production of the models continued. Brass boilers gave way to die-cast, and many other evolutionary improvements were made over the years. What criteria can be used to distinguish a vintage Bowser from a modern Bowser? There seems to be agreement that Penn Line is vintage. Bowser bought Penn Line in 1963 and the Penn Line models continued as Bowser models, with continuous evolutionary improvements. There is not a great deal of difference between a Penn Line locomotive and the equivalent Bowser locomotive at the end of production of the Bowser steam locomotive line, other than evolutionary improvements.

Another manufacturer is Hobbytown. Hobbytown drives have been around long enough for at least the earliest ones to be classified as vintage, based on age. The basic design of the drives, with helical gearing in the trucks, did not change significantly over the lifetime of Hobbytown, through Bear Locomotive. The huge DC90 motors gave way to smaller motors and eventually can motors. The gear tower moved from outboard to inboard on the trucks. Flywheels were introduced. Clutches were briefly part of the drivetrain. All evolutionary improvements. Where is the cutoff between vintage and modern?

Should all of the "evolutionary" models be considered as vintage, even those produced after 2000, if they employ the same basic design as the vintage models?

Dennis Kunkel

From: "'John Hagen' sprinthag@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 4, 2016 12:55 PM
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] When does a train become vintage?

Well,

2015 is “vintage.” Trying to define it is a tad on the improbable side. But I would personally consider anything that is no longer available, had some sort of significance, was not made in the thousands and appeals to me as vintage. Now this means that vintage would be many things to many people. But what it means on this group is something else.

This does come up from time to time. Me thinks it is best for Don Dellmann, list owner, to set the parameters. He has done so in the past but what they were and/or when they were posted --------?

The groups home page states;

“Group Description

This is the place for those who collect and RUN that wonderful vintage HO from the early 1960's and before.

Does the thought of Varney, Penn Line, Megow, Kasiner, Blue Line, Lionel HO, Ulrich, American Beauty, Hobbyline, Marx, Revell, etc. etc. make your heart beat faster? This is the place for you.

Athearn Metal cars, MDC back when they really WERE "diecast", Walthers metal passenger cars, all are "on topic" here.

The models us "olde pharts" grew up with, the wood and metal, and even cardstock kits. The pioneering plastic models, all the heritage that made model railroading the greatest hobby in the world.

Join us as we go back to those thrilling days of yesteryear.”

Maybe Don will post an undated version and put it in a file folder so we can direct inquirers to it in the future?

John Hagen

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25424	From: William Murray	Date: 5/8/2016
Subject: Re: When does a train become vintage?

I thought I had sent that to you alone, but I see that others got the msg as well. I thought "reply" went only to the sender, and "reply to all" went everywhere. Maybe I hit the wrong one. Anyway, thanks, yes, I wasn't far from capital hill. As I said, I could hardly recognize the place.

On Sunday, May 8, 2016 9:06 AM, "Bob Macklin macklinbob@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

I live in Kent, Wa. about 25 miles south of Seattle. In 1941 I did live on Capital Hill in Seattle.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2016 4:43 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] When does a train become vintage?

Hi Bill,

This appears to be sent by you, unless I'm mistaken. I was just wondering who you're addressing here as there are four members who've posted here, yet your message is appearing above mine as the last message sent. Please know that I don't live in Seattle, nor ever stated that I did. I've lived in New Jersey all of my life. Perhaps you may have even intended to write this to another group but mistakenly wrote it here, as I see no mention of Seattle by any of the other members below (?). I would imagine that a ride on the GN Empire Builder through the Rockies must have been breathtaking though.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 5/8/2016 12:23:39 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Where do you live in Seattle? I lived there in 65, had an apt on 9th and Cherry, near the cathedral, I worked at the old federal office bldg at 1st and Cherry. I remember the long but easy walk downhill to go to work, and the long uphill climb to go home. Sometimes when I wasn't up to it, I would have to take a bus downtown and another bus uphill! I looked at Seattle on google earth recently and it is almost unrecognizable. I took the GN Empire builder home, thru the rockies, very beautiful.

On Saturday, May 7, 2016 2:39 PM, "eriepacific@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Sent this over 5 hours ago, but Yahoo never posted it.  My apologies if you receive this twice.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 5/7/2016 10:40:39 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, EriePacific@... writes:

This is still not an easy question to answer, even after receiving Don's revision of this, but I'll take another stab at addressing these particular issues. For starters though, with model railroad items, it's not as simple as assigning automobiles to a certain cut-off date, and then too, since much of the consideration of what's "vintage" is attributed to the "style of modeling" as Don points out, this mainly craftsman style of construction that's associated with what constitutes a vintage model doesn't just end for all manufacturers in one certain year.

Various manufacturers continued their own certain style of construction independent of other manufacturers, yet each of these same manufacturers incorporated their own -- or similar -- craftsman style construction which is noted to be vintage. Now, getting to "continuation" or "evolution" of models, it's sometimes difficult to draw the line but as concerns Mantua, I believe everyone is in agreement that their pre-War and post-War formed brass steam engines are all vintage. I think we should also agree that the all cast-metal locos with gear boxes drives are also vintage. I would even go so far as to include the all-cast-metal (w/metal cab, metal front end detail [pilot,etc.] and metal tender) Mantua also vintage despite having the exposed spur gear on the axle.

When things changed from there, I no longer saw this line as being vintage. Plastic cab, plastic front end and plastic tender changes it all more than enough, from being vintage. In general, and I'll use this term loosely, it might appear -- at times -- that when a manufacturing line is sold or has changed hands, it's no long the vintage line that it once was despite the fact that the line may still retain the same construction style. While craftsman construction may help denote a vintage model, I don't believe their later knock-off counterparts of these same models should enjoy this vintage designation. The Main Line, Silver Streak, L-W, A-C, Binkley and other reproduction produced by Ye Olde Huff 'N Puff in the 1980's just do not constitute a vintage designation as I see it. The same goes for Mantua, especially when they changed hands a number of times between being "Mantua" and "Tyco." I don't see Tyco as being vintage, and I especially don't see the later Mantua, after Tyco, as being vintage, even though I was glad to see John Tyler once more in command..

As for Lew English's Bowser Manufacturing Co., while he no longer manufactured the cast brass/bronze boilered (Knapp) Mountain loco, the zamak M1 Mountain he did offer into the early 1970's was in close design to Bill Bowser's Mountain, even if not the same appearance. Then too, when Lew English bought out his portion (along with Sol Kramer buying the other portion) of Bob Faust's Penn Line company on January 29, 1964, he made no changes to them for a good while and I would think this line should still remain as "vintage" up until the time that English changed the frames from cast metal to pressed brass. "Evolutionary Improvements," depending on their extent, changes a model from being vintage to one not being able to continue being vintage -- as I see it, even if it's not considered "modern." To change all of the frames on his Bowser models to brass is a major change.

The original Hobbytown of Boston models were at one time vintage when they first started out. After making major changes, I don't believe they would still be considered as being vintage as now those same models were different enough from their original production so as to be notably altered. The flywheel drive being one of these major alterations from vintage. As for clutches, this is a minor alteration that was most often chosen by the modeler as an aftermarket addition, bought from sources other than Hobbytown if it wanted to be added.

As I see it, "Evolutionary" models should not be considered as vintage, since evolved models no longer resemble the original vintage models. I don't even see why evolving models should be considered for vintage as they've often changed to a large degree. "Basic" (to vintage) design is not the same as fully original design when the drive has been changed, and even while a set date does not involve vintage models, I can't think of any model produced after 2000 as having the same design as any vintage model.

While most of us probably have our own preferences in vintage models, we can't discriminate some vintage models from others just because of this. I too prefer wood/metal cars, but we cannot omit early plastic cars from being considered vintage. There were some vintage models that were made of cardstock and wood, but with a plastic roof. Such were Lehigh Models. There as a line of early plastic Mantua reefers with lithographed pressed metal sides.  I own and run (operate - < g >) a number of early Athearn plastic cars as being vintage even though I have all of Athearn's metal cars with about 95% of their road numbers. G.F. Menzies metal cars are reproductions, yet I still bought them (yes, many use the same Athearn produced sides). D.J. Baker, the same thing and Park Varieties the same also, although Franklin Brua did all his own, different roadnames.

Many of the Walthers Silver Streak and Ulrich models of the 1970's may be the "same" as the original vintage Pacific HO (Silver Streak) and Ulrich models of the previous decade, but they're actually reproductions -- same as Ye Olde Huff 'N Puff reproduced model's of other early manufacturers in the 1980's, but I don't see these as "vintage;" they're not the same Pacific HO. Yeah, like you, I'd like to see them as vintage, but when I consider that they bought out the earlier manufacturers and then continued to reproduce their same lines of models, I can only see them as that -- reproductions." This is not to say that I don't collect them and run them, as I do (and I'm glad I have them) because it's difficult to find all of the original Pacific HO models first produced. Once built and put on the rails, it's next to impossible to tell the difference, but when they go back in the box, they go back in a Walthers box. If Don wants to describe these (and Ye Olde Huff 'N Puff) as vintage, I'll certainly be glad to go along with that, but I wouldn't have thought so otherwise.

Again, aptly put -- " I'll know it when I see it."

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 5/6/2016 9:40:42 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

My feeling is PRE plastic or possibly the early partial plastic.

I prefer the zinc diecast locomotives and the wood/metal cars.

I hate Athearn plastic cars but I can tolerate the MDC Old Timer plastic cars.

LaBelle wood car kits are still in production but assembling one today is the same as it was 40 years ago.

Even the Walther's Silver Streak and Ulrich kits are the same as they were back in the 60's.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: Dennis Kunkel dtkunkel@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2016 12:39 PM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] When does a train become vintage?

My question on this subject is the "continuation" or "evolution" models. For instance, Mantua, which was built over a number of decades. We can certainly agree that the early brass boiler Pacifics and Atlantics are vintage. Then we get into the die-cast Mantuas. The first die-cast Mikados and Pacifics had all die-cast metal boilers, including the cab, and a die-cast metal tender. Given their age, they would be classified as vintage. These models then evolved over time, up to and including the Model Power versions. The cabs and tenders became plastic, gearboxes gave way to a worm on a DC70 (DC60?) motor, then the small Mantua motor, and eventually a can motor and gearbox. At what point in this evolution did the models cease to be vintage? The latest iterations are fundamentally the same models they were back in the 1960's.

The same is true for Bowser. The original Bowsers from Redlands - vintage. When Bowser was sold to Lew English in 1961 and moved to Pennsylvania, production of the models continued. Brass boilers gave way to die-cast, and many other evolutionary improvements were made over the years. What criteria can be used to distinguish a vintage Bowser from a modern Bowser? There seems to be agreement that Penn Line is vintage. Bowser bought Penn Line in 1963 and the Penn Line models continued as Bowser models, with continuous evolutionary improvements. There is not a great deal of difference between a Penn Line locomotive and the equivalent Bowser locomotive at the end of production of the Bowser steam locomotive line, other than evolutionary improvements.

Another manufacturer is Hobbytown. Hobbytown drives have been around long enough for at least the earliest ones to be classified as vintage, based on age. The basic design of the drives, with helical gearing in the trucks, did not change significantly over the lifetime of Hobbytown, through Bear Locomotive. The huge DC90 motors gave way to smaller motors and eventually can motors. The gear tower moved from outboard to inboard on the trucks. Flywheels were introduced. Clutches were briefly part of the drivetrain. All evolutionary improvements. Where is the cutoff between vintage and modern?

Should all of the "evolutionary" models be considered as vintage, even those produced after 2000, if they employ the same basic design as the vintage models?

Dennis Kunkel

From: "'John Hagen' sprinthag@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 4, 2016 12:55 PM
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] When does a train become vintage?

Well,

2015 is “vintage.” Trying to define it is a tad on the improbable side. But I would personally consider anything that is no longer available, had some sort of significance, was not made in the thousands and appeals to me as vintage. Now this means that vintage would be many things to many people. But what it means on this group is something else.

This does come up from time to time. Me thinks it is best for Don Dellmann, list owner, to set the parameters. He has done so in the past but what they were and/or when they were posted --------?

The groups home page states;

“Group Description

This is the place for those who collect and RUN that wonderful vintage HO from the early 1960's and before.

Does the thought of Varney, Penn Line, Megow, Kasiner, Blue Line, Lionel HO, Ulrich, American Beauty, Hobbyline, Marx, Revell, etc. etc. make your heart beat faster? This is the place for you.

Athearn Metal cars, MDC back when they really WERE "diecast", Walthers metal passenger cars, all are "on topic" here.

The models us "olde pharts" grew up with, the wood and metal, and even cardstock kits. The pioneering plastic models, all the heritage that made model railroading the greatest hobby in the world.

Join us as we go back to those thrilling days of yesteryear.”

Maybe Don will post an undated version and put it in a file folder so we can direct inquirers to it in the future?

John Hagen

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25425	From: John Hagen	Date: 5/8/2016
Subject: Re: When does a train become vintage?

You must use “Reply to sender” at the bottom of the posting. Using just “Reply” in your email program will send it to the group.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2016 1:43 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] When does a train become vintage?

On Sunday, May 8, 2016 9:06 AM, "Bob Macklin macklinbob@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

I live in Kent, Wa. about 25 miles south of Seattle. In 1941 I did live on Capital Hill in Seattle.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.
----- Original Message -----
From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO]
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2016 4:43 AM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] When does a train become vintage?

Hi Bill,

This appears to be sent by you, unless I'm mistaken. I was just wondering who you're addressing here as there are four members who've posted here, yet your message is appearing above mine as the last message sent. Please know that I don't live in Seattle, nor ever stated that I did. I've lived in New Jersey all of my life. Perhaps you may have even intended to write this to another group but mistakenly wrote it here, as I see no mention of Seattle by any of the other members below (?). I would imagine that a ride on the GN Empire Builder through the Rockies must have been breathtaking though.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 5/8/2016 12:23:39 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Where do you live in Seattle? I lived there in 65, had an apt on 9th and Cherry, near the cathedral, I worked at the old federal office bldg at 1st and Cherry. I remember the long but easy walk downhill to go to work, and the long uphill climb to go home. Sometimes when I wasn't up to it, I would have to take a bus downtown and another bus uphill! I looked at Seattle on google earth recently and it is almost unrecognizable. I took the GN Empire builder home, thru the rockies, very beautiful.

On Saturday, May 7, 2016 2:39 PM, "eriepacific@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Sent this over 5 hours ago, but Yahoo never posted it.  My apologies if you receive this twice.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 5/7/2016 10:40:39 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, EriePacific@... writes:
This is still not an easy question to answer, even after receiving Don's revision of this, but I'll take another stab at addressing these particular issues. For starters though, with model railroad items, it's not as simple as assigning automobiles to a certain cut-off date, and then too, since much of the consideration of what's "vintage" is attributed to the "style of modeling" as Don points out, this mainly craftsman style of construction that's associated with what constitutes a vintage model doesn't just end for all manufacturers in one certain year.

Various manufacturers continued their own certain style of construction independent of other manufacturers, yet each of these same manufacturers incorporated their own -- or similar -- craftsman style construction which is noted to be vintage. Now, getting to "continuation" or "evolution" of models, it's sometimes difficult to draw the line but as concerns Mantua, I believe everyone is in agreement that their pre-War and post-War formed brass steam engines are all vintage. I think we should also agree that the all cast-metal locos with gear boxes drives are also vintage. I would even go so far as to include the all-cast-metal (w/metal cab, metal front end detail [pilot,etc.] and metal tender) Mantua also vintage despite having the exposed spur gear on the axle.

When things changed from there, I no longer saw this line as being vintage. Plastic cab, plastic front end and plastic tender changes it all more than enough, from being vintage. In general, and I'll use this term loosely, it might appear -- at times -- that when a manufacturing line is sold or has changed hands, it's no long the vintage line that it once was despite the fact that the line may still retain the same construction style. While craftsman construction may help denote a vintage model, I don't believe their later knock-off counterparts of these same models should enjoy this vintage designation. The Main Line, Silver Streak, L-W, A-C, Binkley and other reproduction produced by Ye Olde Huff 'N Puff in the 1980's just do not constitute a vintage designation as I see it. The same goes for Mantua, especially when they changed hands a number of times between being "Mantua" and "Tyco." I don't see Tyco as being vintage, and I especially don't see the later Mantua, after Tyco, as being vintage, even though I was glad to see John Tyler once more in command..

As for Lew English's Bowser Manufacturing Co., while he no longer manufactured the cast brass/bronze boilered (Knapp) Mountain loco, the zamak M1 Mountain he did offer into the early 1970's was in close design to Bill Bowser's Mountain, even if not the same appearance. Then too, when Lew English bought out his portion (along with Sol Kramer buying the other portion) of Bob Faust's Penn Line company on January 29, 1964, he made no changes to them for a good while and I would think this line should still remain as "vintage" up until the time that English changed the frames from cast metal to pressed brass. "Evolutionary Improvements," depending on their extent, changes a model from being vintage to one not being able to continue being vintage -- as I see it, even if it's not considered "modern." To change all of the frames on his Bowser models to brass is a major change.

The original Hobbytown of Boston models were at one time vintage when they first started out. After making major changes, I don't believe they would still be considered as being vintage as now those same models were different enough from their original production so as to be notably altered. The flywheel drive being one of these major alterations from vintage. As for clutches, this is a minor alteration that was most often chosen by the modeler as an aftermarket addition, bought from sources other than Hobbytown if it wanted to be added.

As I see it, "Evolutionary" models should not be considered as vintage, since evolved models no longer resemble the original vintage models. I don't even see why evolving models should be considered for vintage as they've often changed to a large degree. "Basic" (to vintage) design is not the same as fully original design when the drive has been changed, and even while a set date does not involve vintage models, I can't think of any model produced after 2000 as having the same design as any vintage model.

While most of us probably have our own preferences in vintage models, we can't discriminate some vintage models from others just because of this. I too prefer wood/metal cars, but we cannot omit early plastic cars from being considered vintage. There were some vintage models that were made of cardstock and wood, but with a plastic roof. Such were Lehigh Models. There as a line of early plastic Mantua reefers with lithographed pressed metal sides.  I own and run (operate - < g >) a number of early Athearn plastic cars as being vintage even though I have all of Athearn's metal cars with about 95% of their road numbers. G.F. Menzies metal cars are reproductions, yet I still bought them (yes, many use the same Athearn produced sides). D.J. Baker, the same thing and Park Varieties the same also, although Franklin Brua did all his own, different roadnames.

Many of the Walthers Silver Streak and Ulrich models of the 1970's may be the "same" as the original vintage Pacific HO (Silver Streak) and Ulrich models of the previous decade, but they're actually reproductions -- same as Ye Olde Huff 'N Puff reproduced model's of other early manufacturers in the 1980's, but I don't see these as "vintage;" they're not the same Pacific HO. Yeah, like you, I'd like to see them as vintage, but when I consider that they bought out the earlier manufacturers and then continued to reproduce their same lines of models, I can only see them as that -- reproductions." This is not to say that I don't collect them and run them, as I do (and I'm glad I have them) because it's difficult to find all of the original Pacific HO models first produced. Once built and put on the rails, it's next to impossible to tell the difference, but when they go back in the box, they go back in a Walthers box. If Don wants to describe these (and Ye Olde Huff 'N Puff) as vintage, I'll certainly be glad to go along with that, but I wouldn't have thought so otherwise.

Again, aptly put -- " I'll know it when I see it."

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 5/6/2016 9:40:42 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:
My feeling is PRE plastic or possibly the early partial plastic.

I prefer the zinc diecast locomotives and the wood/metal cars.

I hate Athearn plastic cars but I can tolerate the MDC Old Timer plastic cars.

LaBelle wood car kits are still in production but assembling one today is the same as it was 40 years ago.

Even the Walther's Silver Streak and Ulrich kits are the same as they were back in the 60's.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.
----- Original Message -----
From: Dennis Kunkel dtkunkel@... [vintageHO]
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2016 12:39 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] When does a train become vintage?

My question on this subject is the "continuation" or "evolution" models. For instance, Mantua, which was built over a number of decades. We can certainly agree that the early brass boiler Pacifics and Atlantics are vintage. Then we get into the die-cast Mantuas. The first die-cast Mikados and Pacifics had all die-cast metal boilers, including the cab, and a die-cast metal tender. Given their age, they would be classified as vintage. These models then evolved over time, up to and including the Model Power versions. The cabs and tenders became plastic, gearboxes gave way to a worm on a DC70 (DC60?) motor, then the small Mantua motor, and eventually a can motor and gearbox. At what point in this evolution did the models cease to be vintage? The latest iterations are fundamentally the same models they were back in the 1960's.

The same is true for Bowser. The original Bowsers from Redlands - vintage. When Bowser was sold to Lew English in 1961 and moved to Pennsylvania, production of the models continued. Brass boilers gave way to die-cast, and many other evolutionary improvements were made over the years. What criteria can be used to distinguish a vintage Bowser from a modern Bowser? There seems to be agreement that Penn Line is vintage. Bowser bought Penn Line in 1963 and the Penn Line models continued as Bowser models, with continuous evolutionary improvements. There is not a great deal of difference between a Penn Line locomotive and the equivalent Bowser locomotive at the end of production of the Bowser steam locomotive line, other than evolutionary improvements.

Another manufacturer is Hobbytown. Hobbytown drives have been around long enough for at least the earliest ones to be classified as vintage, based on age. The basic design of the drives, with helical gearing in the trucks, did not change significantly over the lifetime of Hobbytown, through Bear Locomotive. The huge DC90 motors gave way to smaller motors and eventually can motors. The gear tower moved from outboard to inboard on the trucks. Flywheels were introduced. Clutches were briefly part of the drivetrain. All evolutionary improvements. Where is the cutoff between vintage and modern?

Should all of the "evolutionary" models be considered as vintage, even those produced after 2000, if they employ the same basic design as the vintage models?

Dennis Kunkel

From: "'John Hagen' sprinthag@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 4, 2016 12:55 PM
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] When does a train become vintage?

Well,
2015 is “vintage.” Trying to define it is a tad on the improbable side. But I would personally consider anything that is no longer available, had some sort of significance, was not made in the thousands and appeals to me as vintage. Now this means that vintage would be many things to many people. But what it means on this group is something else.
This does come up from time to time. Me thinks it is best for Don Dellmann, list owner, to set the parameters. He has done so in the past but what they were and/or when they were posted --------?
The groups home page states;
“Group Description
This is the place for those who collect and RUN that wonderful vintage HO from the early 1960's and before.

Does the thought of Varney, Penn Line, Megow, Kasiner, Blue Line, Lionel HO, Ulrich, American Beauty, Hobbyline, Marx, Revell, etc. etc. make your heart beat faster? This is the place for you.

Athearn Metal cars, MDC back when they really WERE "diecast", Walthers metal passenger cars, all are "on topic" here.

The models us "olde pharts" grew up with, the wood and metal, and even cardstock kits. The pioneering plastic models, all the heritage that made model railroading the greatest hobby in the world.

Join us as we go back to those thrilling days of yesteryear.”

Maybe Don will post an undated version and put it in a file folder so we can direct inquirers to it in the future?
John Hagen

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25426	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 5/8/2016
Subject: Re: When does a train become vintage?

One of the mysteries of Neo-Yahoo programing….

Best to ya,

Mike Bauers

Milwaukee, Wi

On May 8, 2016, at 5:43 PM, 'John Hagen' wrote:

You must use “Reply to sender” at the bottom of the posting. Using just “Reply” in your email program will send it to the group.
John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2016 1:43 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] When does a train become vintage?

I thought I had sent that to you alone, but I see that others got the msg as well. I thought "reply" went only to the sender, and "reply to all" went everywhere. Maybe I hit the wrong one. Anyway, thanks, yes, I wasn't far from capital hill. As I said, I could hardly recognize the place.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25427	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 5/8/2016
Subject: Re: When does a train become vintage?

No problem; I enjoyed your description of the Rockies as seen from the GN Empire Builder -- "See America First." Had to be a nice ride.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 5/8/2016 6:21:24 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

On Sunday, May 8, 2016 9:06 AM, "Bob Macklin macklinbob@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

I live in Kent, Wa. about 25 miles south of Seattle. In 1941 I did live on Capital Hill in Seattle.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2016 4:43 AM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] When does a train become vintage?

Hi Bill,

This appears to be sent by you, unless I'm mistaken. I was just wondering who you're addressing here as there are four members who've posted here, yet your message is appearing above mine as the last message sent. Please know that I don't live in Seattle, nor ever stated that I did. I've lived in New Jersey all of my life. Perhaps you may have even intended to write this to another group but mistakenly wrote it here, as I see no mention of Seattle by any of the other members below (?). I would imagine that a ride on the GN Empire Builder through the Rockies must have been breathtaking though.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 5/8/2016 12:23:39 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Where do you live in Seattle? I lived there in 65, had an apt on 9th and Cherry, near the cathedral, I worked at the old federal office bldg at 1st and Cherry. I remember the long but easy walk downhill to go to work, and the long uphill climb to go home. Sometimes when I wasn't up to it, I would have to take a bus downtown and another bus uphill! I looked at Seattle on google earth recently and it is almost unrecognizable. I took the GN Empire builder home, thru the rockies, very beautiful.

On Saturday, May 7, 2016 2:39 PM, "eriepacific@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Sent this over 5 hours ago, but Yahoo never posted it.  My apologies if you receive this twice.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 5/7/2016 10:40:39 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, EriePacific@... writes:

This is still not an easy question to answer, even after receiving Don's revision of this, but I'll take another stab at addressing these particular issues. For starters though, with model railroad items, it's not as simple as assigning automobiles to a certain cut-off date, and then too, since much of the consideration of what's "vintage" is attributed to the "style of modeling" as Don points out, this mainly craftsman style of construction that's associated with what constitutes a vintage model doesn't just end for all manufacturers in one certain year.

Various manufacturers continued their own certain style of construction independent of other manufacturers, yet each of these same manufacturers incorporated their own -- or similar -- craftsman style construction which is noted to be vintage. Now, getting to "continuation" or "evolution" of models, it's sometimes difficult to draw the line but as concerns Mantua, I believe everyone is in agreement that their pre-War and post-War formed brass steam engines are all vintage. I think we should also agree that the all cast-metal locos with gear boxes drives are also vintage. I would even go so far as to include the all-cast-metal (w/metal cab, metal front end detail [pilot,etc.] and metal tender) Mantua also vintage despite having the exposed spur gear on the axle.

When things changed from there, I no longer saw this line as being vintage. Plastic cab, plastic front end and plastic tender changes it all more than enough, from being vintage. In general, and I'll use this term loosely, it might appear -- at times -- that when a manufacturing line is sold or has changed hands, it's no long the vintage line that it once was despite the fact that the line may still retain the same construction style. While craftsman construction may help denote a vintage model, I don't believe their later knock-off counterparts of these same models should enjoy this vintage designation. The Main Line, Silver Streak, L-W, A-C, Binkley and other reproduction produced by Ye Olde Huff 'N Puff in the 1980's just do not constitute a vintage designation as I see it. The same goes for Mantua, especially when they changed hands a number of times between being "Mantua" and "Tyco." I don't see Tyco as being vintage, and I especially don't see the later Mantua, after Tyco, as being vintage, even though I was glad to see John Tyler once more in command..

As for Lew English's Bowser Manufacturing Co., while he no longer manufactured the cast brass/bronze boilered (Knapp) Mountain loco, the zamak M1 Mountain he did offer into the early 1970's was in close design to Bill Bowser's Mountain, even if not the same appearance. Then too, when Lew English bought out his portion (along with Sol Kramer buying the other portion) of Bob Faust's Penn Line company on January 29, 1964, he made no changes to them for a good while and I would think this line should still remain as "vintage" up until the time that English changed the frames from cast metal to pressed brass. "Evolutionary Improvements," depending on their extent, changes a model from being vintage to one not being able to continue being vintage -- as I see it, even if it's not considered "modern." To change all of the frames on his Bowser models to brass is a major change.

The original Hobbytown of Boston models were at one time vintage when they first started out. After making major changes, I don't believe they would still be considered as being vintage as now those same models were different enough from their original production so as to be notably altered. The flywheel drive being one of these major alterations from vintage. As for clutches, this is a minor alteration that was most often chosen by the modeler as an aftermarket addition, bought from sources other than Hobbytown if it wanted to be added.

As I see it, "Evolutionary" models should not be considered as vintage, since evolved models no longer resemble the original vintage models. I don't even see why evolving models should be considered for vintage as they've often changed to a large degree. "Basic" (to vintage) design is not the same as fully original design when the drive has been changed, and even while a set date does not involve vintage models, I can't think of any model produced after 2000 as having the same design as any vintage model.

While most of us probably have our own preferences in vintage models, we can't discriminate some vintage models from others just because of this. I too prefer wood/metal cars, but we cannot omit early plastic cars from being considered vintage. There were some vintage models that were made of cardstock and wood, but with a plastic roof. Such were Lehigh Models. There as a line of early plastic Mantua reefers with lithographed pressed metal sides.  I own and run (operate - < g >) a number of early Athearn plastic cars as being vintage even though I have all of Athearn's metal cars with about 95% of their road numbers. G.F. Menzies metal cars are reproductions, yet I still bought them (yes, many use the same Athearn produced sides). D.J. Baker, the same thing and Park Varieties the same also, although Franklin Brua did all his own, different roadnames.

Many of the Walthers Silver Streak and Ulrich models of the 1970's may be the "same" as the original vintage Pacific HO (Silver Streak) and Ulrich models of the previous decade, but they're actually reproductions -- same as Ye Olde Huff 'N Puff reproduced model's of other early manufacturers in the 1980's, but I don't see these as "vintage;" they're not the same Pacific HO. Yeah, like you, I'd like to see them as vintage, but when I consider that they bought out the earlier manufacturers and then continued to reproduce their same lines of models, I can only see them as that -- reproductions." This is not to say that I don't collect them and run them, as I do (and I'm glad I have them) because it's difficult to find all of the original Pacific HO models first produced. Once built and put on the rails, it's next to impossible to tell the difference, but when they go back in the box, they go back in a Walthers box. If Don wants to describe these (and Ye Olde Huff 'N Puff) as vintage, I'll certainly be glad to go along with that, but I wouldn't have thought so otherwise.

Again, aptly put -- " I'll know it when I see it."

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 5/6/2016 9:40:42 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

My feeling is PRE plastic or possibly the early partial plastic.

I prefer the zinc diecast locomotives and the wood/metal cars.

I hate Athearn plastic cars but I can tolerate the MDC Old Timer plastic cars.

LaBelle wood car kits are still in production but assembling one today is the same as it was 40 years ago.

Even the Walther's Silver Streak and Ulrich kits are the same as they were back in the 60's.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: Dennis Kunkel dtkunkel@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2016 12:39 PM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] When does a train become vintage?

My question on this subject is the "continuation" or "evolution" models. For instance, Mantua, which was built over a number of decades. We can certainly agree that the early brass boiler Pacifics and Atlantics are vintage. Then we get into the die-cast Mantuas. The first die-cast Mikados and Pacifics had all die-cast metal boilers, including the cab, and a die-cast metal tender. Given their age, they would be classified as vintage. These models then evolved over time, up to and including the Model Power versions. The cabs and tenders became plastic, gearboxes gave way to a worm on a DC70 (DC60?) motor, then the small Mantua motor, and eventually a can motor and gearbox. At what point in this evolution did the models cease to be vintage? The latest iterations are fundamentally the same models they were back in the 1960's.

The same is true for Bowser. The original Bowsers from Redlands - vintage. When Bowser was sold to Lew English in 1961 and moved to Pennsylvania, production of the models continued. Brass boilers gave way to die-cast, and many other evolutionary improvements were made over the years. What criteria can be used to distinguish a vintage Bowser from a modern Bowser? There seems to be agreement that Penn Line is vintage. Bowser bought Penn Line in 1963 and the Penn Line models continued as Bowser models, with continuous evolutionary improvements. There is not a great deal of difference between a Penn Line locomotive and the equivalent Bowser locomotive at the end of production of the Bowser steam locomotive line, other than evolutionary improvements.

Another manufacturer is Hobbytown. Hobbytown drives have been around long enough for at least the earliest ones to be classified as vintage, based on age. The basic design of the drives, with helical gearing in the trucks, did not change significantly over the lifetime of Hobbytown, through Bear Locomotive. The huge DC90 motors gave way to smaller motors and eventually can motors. The gear tower moved from outboard to inboard on the trucks. Flywheels were introduced. Clutches were briefly part of the drivetrain. All evolutionary improvements. Where is the cutoff between vintage and modern?

Should all of the "evolutionary" models be considered as vintage, even those produced after 2000, if they employ the same basic design as the vintage models?

Dennis Kunkel

From: "'John Hagen' sprinthag@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 4, 2016 12:55 PM
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] When does a train become vintage?

Well,

2015 is “vintage.” Trying to define it is a tad on the improbable side. But I would personally consider anything that is no longer available, had some sort of significance, was not made in the thousands and appeals to me as vintage. Now this means that vintage would be many things to many people. But what it means on this group is something else.

This does come up from time to time. Me thinks it is best for Don Dellmann, list owner, to set the parameters. He has done so in the past but what they were and/or when they were posted --------?

The groups home page states;

“Group Description

This is the place for those who collect and RUN that wonderful vintage HO from the early 1960's and before.

Does the thought of Varney, Penn Line, Megow, Kasiner, Blue Line, Lionel HO, Ulrich, American Beauty, Hobbyline, Marx, Revell, etc. etc. make your heart beat faster? This is the place for you.

Athearn Metal cars, MDC back when they really WERE "diecast", Walthers metal passenger cars, all are "on topic" here.

The models us "olde pharts" grew up with, the wood and metal, and even cardstock kits. The pioneering plastic models, all the heritage that made model railroading the greatest hobby in the world.

Join us as we go back to those thrilling days of yesteryear.”

Maybe Don will post an undated version and put it in a file folder so we can direct inquirers to it in the future?

John Hagen

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25428	From: John Hagen	Date: 5/8/2016
Subject: Re: When does a train become vintage?

Actually, that has been since well before the Neo-ism.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2016 7:36 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] When does a train become vintage?

One of the mysteries of Neo-Yahoo programing….

Best to ya,

Mike Bauers

Milwaukee, Wi

On May 8, 2016, at 5:43 PM, 'John Hagen' wrote:

You must use “Reply to sender” at the bottom of the posting. Using just “Reply” in your email program will send it to the group.
John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2016 1:43 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] When does a train become vintage?

I thought I had sent that to you alone, but I see that others got the msg as well. I thought "reply" went only to the sender, and "reply to all" went everywhere. Maybe I hit the wrong one. Anyway, thanks, yes, I wasn't far from capital hill. As I said, I could hardly recognize the place.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25429	From: Ken Starcher	Date: 5/9/2016
Subject: Re: Hello I am a new member

Depending upon how a wife interprets "models," "playing with models" could be problematic. Better stick with toys.

Ken A Starcher OHIO

--------------------------------------------

On Thu, 5/5/16, Victor Bitleris bitlerisvj@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Hello I am a new member
To: "vintageHO@yahoogroups.com" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Thursday, May 5, 2016, 9:03 PM

Ummm, well, when my wife asked what I did this afternoon,
I told her I worked on the railroad. She said, oh, you
played trains. I said I worked. I was laying track,
etc. When I go to operating sessions as I will next
Tuesday, she will say, I am playing
trains. When I go to my friends house on the third Friday
of the month to help build the layout and WORK, she says,
oh, your playing trains. And when I go to our NMRA CPD13
meetings on the 4th Tuesday of the month, she says oh, your
playing trains. I just
can't win. It is really work, ....after retirement.

Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
<vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of William
Murray william.murray@... [vintageHO]
<vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>

Sent: Thursday, May 5, 2016 7:47 PM

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Hello I am a new
member

Well I don't know about you guys but I play with my
toys.

On Thursday, May
5, 2016 1:45 PM, "eriepacific@... [vintageHO]"
<vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

That's what many people outside of the hobby want
to believe. All the more reason why we need to use terms
like "operate" and "model" so that it
gets drummed into them that we don't just play with toys
< g >.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 5/5/2016 2:38:43 P.M. Eastern
Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

My wife says that I play with my toys.

Brad Smith

Sent from Brad's iPod

On May 4, 2016, at 6:12 PM,
eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
wrote:

Certainly, we never "play"
with our trains. Then too, we never "run" them
-- we OPERATE them. And then, they're not just
"trains," they're MODELS -- and scale models,
to boot.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 5/4/2016 7:04:38 P.M. Eastern
Daylight Time,
vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

The key word is “old” which usually means you
don’t have to give a rat’s derriere what anyone else
thinks.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Windows Mail

From: corlissbs@...
[vintageHO]

Sent: ‎Wednesday‎, ‎May‎ ‎4‎, ‎2016
‎3‎:‎29‎ ‎PM

To: corlissbs@...
[vintageHO]

On 5/05/2016
04:50,
ckinzer@... [vintageHO] wrote:

> I suspect many of us are a “doddering old fool who
plays with toys.” Can you get a bumper sticker for
that?

> Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Never tell them you play with or have 'toys'. My
explanation is that 'I

collect *antique* toys, particularly pre-war and postwar
Japanese' which

adds a respectable aura and mystery to it.

Works!

--

Cheers.

Doug Harris - a doddering old 77, and still collecting -
trains and years..

Auckland, New Zealand

------------------------------------

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Group: vintageHO	Message: 25430	From: John Hagen	Date: 5/9/2016
Subject: Re: Hello I am a new member

Geez,

What are you? A man or a husband?

John Hagen (Husband)

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Monday, May 09, 2016 11:16 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Hello I am a new member

Depending upon how a wife interprets "models," "playing with models" could be problematic. Better stick with toys.

Ken A Starcher OHIO

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Group: vintageHO	Message: 25431	From: William Murray	Date: 5/9/2016
Subject: Re: When does a train become vintage?

Left Seattle King st station at 11pm. Darkness thru the Cascades and I couldn't see a thing in the tunnel. Dawn at Spokane. Then up the Idaho panhandle to Bonner's Ferry. Beautiful. Across the Bitter root range took most of the day. More Beautiful. Glacier NP. More Beautiful. Then the plains across Montana. Kind of monotonous. Then dark. More Montana. Then North Dakota in the middle of the night. I looked out the window so I could have a visual memory of ND. All I saw was black. Dawn pulling out of Fargo, into Minnesota, the land of paper birch trees. Afternoon, twin cities. End of the line for the Empire Builder. Sat around station for too long, then onto a CBQ all coach, and very crowded, down the Mississippi then over to Chicago, arrived Union station about 10pm. 47 hours altogether. Early November 1965. My most ambitious train ride.

On Sunday, May 8, 2016 8:04 PM, "eriepacific@... [vintageHO]" wrote:

No problem; I enjoyed your description of the Rockies as seen from the GN Empire Builder -- "See America First." Had to be a nice ride.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 5/8/2016 6:21:24 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

I thought I had sent that to you alone, but I see that others got the msg as well. I thought "reply" went only to the sender, and "reply to all" went everywhere. Maybe I hit the wrong one. Anyway, thanks, yes, I wasn't far from capital hill. As I said, I could hardly recognize the place.

On Sunday, May 8, 2016 9:06 AM, "Bob Macklin macklinbob@... [vintageHO]" wrote:

I live in Kent, Wa. about 25 miles south of Seattle. In 1941 I did live on Capital Hill in Seattle.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25432	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 5/9/2016
Subject: Re: When does a train become vintage?

This is a getting bit off topic.

BTW, I did edit your message. Please don't quote entire thread, delete
everything other than the specific message you're relying to. People
who only read in digest mode don't paticularly care to wade through the
same message 5 times.

Thanks

Dib

Don Dellmann
Contact me at:
don.dellmann@...
See my toys at:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

On 5/9/2016 12:53 AM, William Murray william.murray@...
[vintageHO] wrote:

>
>
> Left Seattle King st station at 11pm. Darkness thru the Cascades and I
> couldn't see a thing in the tunnel. Dawn at Spokane. Then up the Idaho
> panhandle to Bonner's Ferry. Beautiful. Across the Bitter root range
> took most of the day. More Beautiful. Glacier NP. More Beautiful. Then
> the plains across Montana. Kind of monotonous. Then dark. More Montana.
> Then North Dakota in the middle of the night. I looked out the window so
> I could have a visual memory of ND. All I saw was black. Dawn pulling
> out of Fargo, into Minnesota, the land of paper birch trees. Afternoon,
> twin cities. End of the line for the Empire Builder. Sat around station
> for too long, then onto a CBQ all coach, and very crowded, down the
> Mississippi then over to Chicago, arrived Union station about 10pm. 47
> hours altogether. Early November 1965. My most ambitious train ride.
>
>
> On Sunday, May 8, 2016 8:04 PM, "eriepacific@... [vintageHO]" wrote:
>
>
>
>
> No problem; I enjoyed your description of the Rockies as seen from
> the GN Empire Builder -- "See America First." Had to be a nice ride.
>
> Ray Wetzel
>
>
> In a message dated 5/8/2016 6:21:24 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:
> I thought I had sent that to you alone, but I see that others got
> the msg as well. I thought "reply" went only to the sender, and
> "reply to all" went everywhere. Maybe I hit the wrong one. Anyway,
> thanks, yes, I wasn't far from capital hill. As I said, I could
> hardly recognize the place.
>
>
> On Sunday, May 8, 2016 9:06 AM, "Bob Macklin macklinbob@...
> [vintageHO]" wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> I live in Kent, Wa. about 25 miles south of Seattle. In 1941 I
> did live on Capital Hill in Seattle.
>
> Bob Macklin
> Seattle, Wa.
>
>
>
>

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25433	From: k5myj	Date: 5/9/2016
Subject: Mantua Cars?

Looking at the old Mantua catalog I don't see them producing cars until maybe 1959.

Did Mantua produce cars before 1959? Were the cars produced in plastic?

It's pretty easy to find the metal ( and older cardboard) cars produced by Varney.But I have not been able to find any of the mid 50's metal cars produced by Athearn. I sold the few I had probably about 10+ years ago.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25434	From: John Barlow	Date: 5/9/2016
Subject: Re: Mantua Cars?

NO WAY! 1959?

I got started in HO in 1954 at the age of eight, my first two pieces being their "bobber" caboose kit (Reading prototype?) and a lead 40-foot flat car kit. I saved my pennies and bought the then newly

released "Booster" in the autumn of 1955. Yes, I'll be 70 in this coming JUly.

John Barlow (jdenver4150@...)

On Monday, May 9, 2016 12:55 PM, "macklinbob@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25435	From: Richard Dipping	Date: 5/9/2016
Subject: Re: Mantua Cars?

Yes, Mantua goes way back producing cars. 1938 at least. The early Mantua cars were made of sheet metal stampings and some die castings. They made passenger cars; open platform coach, combine and baggage. Reefers, gondolas, boxcars, tank cars, hoppers. The freight cars had printed card sides. Four and eight wheel cabooses were sold. The flat car came out a bit later and was die cast zamac, not lead. The plastic cars first started appearing in the '50s, introduced one type at a time and replacing the metal version as they did so. It was much cheaper to produce the plastic kits, and Mantua was gearing up for TYCO ready-to-run train sets, so factory assembly of plastic cars was much more efficient. They were well advertised in MR so it should be possible to find the introduction dates of each.

-----Original Message-----
From: John Barlow jdenver4150@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Mon, May 9, 2016 2:14 pm
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua Cars?

NO WAY! 1959?

released "Booster" in the autumn of 1955. Yes, I'll be 70 in this coming JUly.

John Barlow (jdenver4150@...)

On Monday, May 9, 2016 12:55 PM, "macklinbob@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25436	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 5/9/2016
Subject: Re: Hello I am a new member

Hmm, just imagine when you go to an NMRA covention and are an AP Judge that Judges Models. The first time I mentioned that at work, I got some weird looks from the women.

Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Ken Starcher ohiocanal@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, May 9, 2016 12:15 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Hello I am a new member

Depending upon how a wife interprets "models," "playing with models" could be problematic. Better stick with toys.

Ken A Starcher OHIO

--------------------------------------------

On Thu, 5/5/16, Victor Bitleris bitlerisvj@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Hello I am a new member
To: "vintageHO@yahoogroups.com" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Thursday, May 5, 2016, 9:03 PM

Ummm, well, when my wife asked what I did this afternoon,
I told her I worked on the railroad. She said, oh, you
played trains. I said I worked. I was laying track,
etc. When I go to operating sessions as I will next
Tuesday, she will say, I am playing
trains. When I go to my friends house on the third Friday
of the month to help build the layout and WORK, she says,
oh, your playing trains. And when I go to our NMRA CPD13
meetings on the 4th Tuesday of the month, she says oh, your
playing trains. I just
can't win. It is really work, ....after retirement.

Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
<vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of William
Murray william.murray@... [vintageHO]
<vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>

Sent: Thursday, May 5, 2016 7:47 PM

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Hello I am a new
member

Well I don't know about you guys but I play with my
toys.

On Thursday, May
5, 2016 1:45 PM, "eriepacific@... [vintageHO]"
<vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

That's what many people outside of the hobby want
to believe. All the more reason why we need to use terms
like "operate" and "model" so that it
gets drummed into them that we don't just play with toys
< g >.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 5/5/2016 2:38:43 P.M. Eastern
Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

My wife says that I play with my toys.

Brad Smith

Sent from Brad's iPod

On May 4, 2016, at 6:12 PM,
eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
wrote:

Certainly, we never "play"
with our trains. Then too, we never "run" them
-- we OPERATE them. And then, they're not just
"trains," they're MODELS -- and scale models,
to boot.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 5/4/2016 7:04:38 P.M. Eastern
Daylight Time,
vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

The key word is “old” which usually means you
don’t have to give a rat’s derriere what anyone else
thinks.

Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Sent from Windows Mail

From: corlissbs@...
[vintageHO]

Sent: ‎Wednesday‎, ‎May‎ ‎4‎, ‎2016
‎3‎:‎29‎ ‎PM

To: corlissbs@...
[vintageHO]

On 5/05/2016
04:50,
ckinzer@... [vintageHO] wrote:

> I suspect many of us are a “doddering old fool who
plays with toys.” Can you get a bumper sticker for
that?

> Charles E. “Chuck” Kinzer

Never tell them you play with or have 'toys'. My
explanation is that 'I

collect *antique* toys, particularly pre-war and postwar
Japanese' which

adds a respectable aura and mystery to it.

Works!

--

Cheers.

Doug Harris - a doddering old 77, and still collecting -
trains and years..

Auckland, New Zealand

------------------------------------

------------------------------------

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Group: vintageHO	Message: 25437	From: Bob Macklin	Date: 5/9/2016
Subject: Re: Mantua Cars?

Thanks for the comments on the Mantua cars. With a little more effort I found a 1948 catalog on HO Seeker.

I have found out how to find the 1950's Varney kits. Bur what I see right now on eBay it is more difficult with Mantua and Athearn. I prefer unbuilt kits and they must be in original boxes.

The Roundhouse cars of the 50's were cast white metal. Ulrich made gondolas and hoppers with cast white metal sides. All the Silver Streak I have ever know has been wood with cast white metal parts. I've been doing OK with these.

But with probably one exception I hate the plastic stuff.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: Richard Dipping richarddipping@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, May 09, 2016 12:29 PM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua Cars?

Yes, Mantua goes way back producing cars. 1938 at least. The early Mantua cars were made of sheet metal stampings and some die castings. They made passenger cars; open platform coach, combine and baggage. Reefers, gondolas, boxcars, tank cars, hoppers. The freight cars had printed card sides. Four and eight wheel cabooses were sold. The flat car came out a bit later and was die cast zamac, not lead. The plastic cars first started appearing in the '50s, introduced one type at a time and replacing the metal version as they did so. It was much cheaper to produce the plastic kits, and Mantua was gearing up for TYCO ready-to-run train sets, so factory assembly of plastic cars was much more efficient. They were well advertised in MR so it should be possible to find the introduction dates of each.

-----Original Message-----
From: John Barlow jdenver4150@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Mon, May 9, 2016 2:14 pm
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua Cars?

NO WAY! 1959?

I got started in HO in 1954 at the age of eight, my first two pieces being their "bobber" caboose kit (Reading prototype?) and a lead 40-foot flat car kit. I saved my pennies and bought the then newly

released "Booster" in the autumn of 1955. Yes, I'll be 70 in this coming JUly.

John Barlow (jdenver4150@...)

On Monday, May 9, 2016 12:55 PM, "macklinbob@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Looking at the old Mantua catalog I don't see them producing cars until maybe 1959.

Did Mantua produce cars before 1959? Were the cars produced in plastic?

It's pretty easy to find the metal ( and older cardboard) cars produced by Varney.But I have not been able to find any of the mid 50's metal cars produced by Athearn. I sold the few I had probably about 10+ years ago.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25438	From: John Hagen	Date: 5/9/2016
Subject: Re: Mantua Cars?

Do more specific searches. Get into HO then search for Mantua Metal, Athearn Metal, Mantua car kits, Athearn car kits ……. You get the idea.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Monday, May 09, 2016 3:52 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua Cars?

Thanks for the comments on the Mantua cars. With a little more effort I found a 1948 catalog on HO Seeker.

I have found out how to find the 1950's Varney kits. Bur what I see right now on eBay it is more difficult with Mantua and Athearn. I prefer unbuilt kits and they must be in original boxes.

But with probably one exception I hate the plastic stuff.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

•

•

•

•

Messages in this topic (4)

In a message dated 5/13/2016 6:48:27 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

· New Members 2

• Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25439	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 5/9/2016
Subject: Re: Mantua Cars?

Mantua made car kits in the 1940's. Most notably, tank cars, reefers
and box cars.
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/vintageHO/photos/albums/984667354

The tank cars were sold as a body kit, nd the tank wrapper separately.
The house cars were unique in that the sides were metal (brass?) with a
paper overly glued on.

Don

Don Dellmann
Contact me at:
don.dellmann@...
See my toys at:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

On 5/9/2016 1:54 PM, macklinbob@... [vintageHO] wrote:
>
>
> Looking at the old Mantua catalog I don't see them producing cars until
> maybe 1959.
>
> Did Mantua produce cars before 1959? Were the cars produced in plastic?
>
> It's pretty easy to find the metal ( and older cardboard) cars produced
> by Varney.But I have not been able to find any of the mid 50's metal
> cars produced by Athearn. I sold the few I had probably about 10+ years ago.
>
> Bob Macklin
> Seattle, Wa.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25440	From: robison.dave	Date: 5/9/2016
Subject: Re: Mantua Cars?

On Mon, 5/9/16, macklinbob@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: [vintageHO] Mantua Cars?
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, May 9, 2016, 11:54 AM

Looking at the old Mantua catalog I don't see
them producing cars until maybe 1959.

Did Mantua produce cars before 1959? Were the
cars produced in plastic?

It's pretty easy to find the metal ( and
older cardboard) cars produced by Varney.But I have not been
able to find any of the mid 50's metal cars produced by

Athearn. I sold the few I had probably about 10+ years
ago.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

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Group: vintageHO	Message: 25441	From: William Murray	Date: 5/9/2016
Subject: Re: When does a train become vintage?

I would be happy if someone would tell me what settings I could set that would prevent all of this past message bulk. I see no obvious way. Thank you.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25442	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 5/9/2016
Subject: Re: When does a train become vintage?

When you write the message, you manually delete the parts you don't want
to quote.

Don

Don Dellmann
Contact me at:
don.dellmann@...
See my toys at:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

On 5/9/2016 2:49 PM, William Murray william.murray@...
[vintageHO] wrote:

>
>
> I would be happy if someone would tell me what settings I could set that
> would prevent all of this past message bulk. I see no obvious way. Thank
> you.
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25443	From: Bob Macklin	Date: 5/9/2016
Subject: Re: Mantua Cars?

I was looking at something on HO Seeker that had only a list of Mantua locos in the early 50's. With a little more effort I did find info on the metal cars circa 1950.

And I have now seen a few on eBay. Not as many as Varney. I also finally found some 1950's Athearn metal cars. Again not as many as Varney.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

----- Original Message -----

From: dave@... [vintageHO]

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, May 09, 2016 12:24 PM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua Cars?

What catalog are you looking at? Certainly the Mantua catalogs from the 1940s and early 1950s showed their stamped brass old time passenger cars (coach, combine, and baggage), as well as a line of so called All Metal freight cars (box, reefer, gondola, hopper, tank) of mostly brass and diecast construction with paper sides from a variety of roads, and four or eight wheel cabooses. Sometime in the 1950s (others will have more info, or look at the excellent HO Seeker site) Mantua changed at least their reefers to a plastic body with litho tin sides.

Dave R.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25444	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 5/9/2016
Subject: Re: Mantua Cars?

Mantua first started producing freight cars in 1938, although not every type. They made a flat car, a high-side gondola and a 4-wheel "Bobber" caboose. They continued to make these three cars in 1939 and 1940. By 1941 and into early 1942, they were making refrigerator cars in 16 different roadnames, and tank cars in 8 different roadnames. The 4-wheel "Bobber" caboose was still being manufactured but the gondola and flat car was discontinued from their catalogs at this time.

In 1945, Mantua resumed the production of now 18 different refrigerator cars and 12 tanks cars. The 4-wheel "Bobber" caboose was brought back too and their 3 (baggage, Combination and coach) old time open vestibule passenger cars were introduced this year. A "new" 8-wheel caboose was added at this time. By 1947, 40' boxcars were offered in 12 different roadnames and high side gondolas were brought back, in 6 different roadnames. 32' 55-ton hopper cars were offered in 1948, in 6 different roadnames. All of these freight cars from 1941, on, were advertised as "All-Metal" although, except for the cabooses, all had heavy paper overlays.

The catalog Series Number 313 consisted of the plastic-bodied reefers with lithographed metal sides. There were six of them'; the first three (# 313A Burlington/CB&Q, # 313B Crazy Crystal and # 313C Borden's) were introduced in 1955 and the last three (# 313D Pluto Water, # 313E Land 'O Lakes and # 313F Baby Ruth) were introduced in 1956. I believe they were produced until 1959.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 5/9/2016 6:42:32 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

What catalog are you looking at? Certainly the Mantua catalogs from the 1940s and early 1950s showed their stamped brass old time passenger cars (coach, combine, and baggage), as well as a line of so called All Metal freight cars (box, reefer, gondola, hopper, tank) of mostly brass and diecast construction with paper sides from a variety of roads, and four or eight wheel cabooses. Sometime in the 1950s (others will have more info, or look at the excellent HO Seeker site) Mantua changed at least their reefers to a plastic body with litho tin sides.

Dave R.

--------------------------------------------
On Mon, 5/9/16, macklinbob@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: [vintageHO] Mantua Cars?
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, May 9, 2016, 11:54 AM

Looking at the old Mantua catalog I don't see
them producing cars until maybe 1959.

Did Mantua produce cars before 1959? Were the
cars produced in plastic?

It's pretty easy to find the metal ( and
older cardboard) cars produced by Varney.But I have not been
able to find any of the mid 50's metal cars produced by

Athearn. I sold the few I had probably about 10+ years
ago.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25445	From: William Murray	Date: 5/10/2016
Subject: Re: Hello I am a new member

I get weird looks from women all the time.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25446	From: Jim Waterman	Date: 5/10/2016
Subject: Re: Hello I am a new member

Face it guys,

We're big boys playing with our toys.
Work is that thing you do (or used to do) to pay the mortgage and buy
food. This is fun.

Jim Waterman

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25447	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 5/10/2016
Subject: Re: Hello I am a new member

Appitimized (spelling failure) by running a rebuilt Atlas Turbo-Racer in the layout out of the pure joy of it running about.

Rebuilt with the newer bushing Athearn frame instead of the original needle point axles in a frame pocket......

You ever see one of those wear out the bearing depressions by gradually grinding them upward in the hard cast metal Hustler frame???

Well that's what what I had to replace on my Turbo-Racer, the wheels and frame.

I'll always remember the sight of it emerging from the tunnels of the MSOE train club layout in clouds of forgotten dust and clearing away the Zip-textured ground scenery for several inches near all of the tracks....

Fun to run in many ways......

Mike Bauers
Sent from my iPhone

> On May 10, 2016, at 5:34 AM, "Jim Waterman Watermaj@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>
> Face it guys,
>
> We're big boys playing with our toys.
> Work is that thing you do (or used to do) to pay the mortgage and buy
> food. This is fun.
>
> Jim Waterman
>
>
> ------------------------------------
> Posted by: Jim Waterman <watermaj@...>
> ------------------------------------
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo Groups Links
>
>
>

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25448	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 5/10/2016
Subject: Re: Vintage Mantua Cars

Just thought I'd finish up here on early vintage Mantua, since I pulled out some slightly later reference material this morning, that I should have referred to yesterday when writing my previous message on this topic. I remember someone here posting that Mantua produced a die-cast flat car, but I don't remember who it was. My apologies for not being able to find this post right now, to give them credit for this bit of info at this time.

While I did mention that Mantua produced flat cars in 1938, '39 and '40, they were not the same (as described in these early catalogs) as the later ones some of us are more familiar with. In reading a page from a loose-leaf Mantua dealer catalog dated 12/1/49, it shows the die-cast flat car that more of us own than the pre-war version (I have several of these later flat cars). It is listed as Catalog # 308 in the Mantua HO Model Railroad Locomotive and Car Kit Replacement Parts list (dated 8/52). This car was factory painted similar to a Tuscan Red color but was not lettered nor did it come with paper sides to be adhered to the car's sides.

Further, the 1953 Mantua's HO Scale Model Railroad Cyclopedia includes a listing of 18 different roadnames for the 40' boxcar -- up from 12 roadnames included in the 1947 Mantua catalog. This kit was cataloged as Box Car Kit # 302. The car sides were cataloged in the # 9400 Series with the first one (Catalog # 9400) being the Baltimore & Ohio "Sentinel Service" and the last one (Catalog # 9417) being the Rock Island.

Someone here also mentioned Central Valley as a possible vintage H0 manufacturer but didn't know how far back they went. I believe they may have stated that they had some Central Valley and I again apologize for not remembering who they are and not being able to find their post again. Central Valley goes back at least to 1950, as they're included in that year's Model R.R. Equipment Corp. catalog. They may go back further, and any ads in earlier MR magazines would indicate this. Besides offering their fine quality rolling stock trucks, they produced a series of 34' truss-rod freight car kits.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 5/9/2016 8:51:06 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, EriePacific@... writes:

Mantua first started producing freight cars in 1938, although not every type. They made a flat car, a high-side gondola and a 4-wheel "Bobber" caboose. They continued to make these three cars in 1939 and 1940. By 1941 and into early 1942, they were making refrigerator cars in 16 different roadnames, and tank cars in 8 different roadnames. The 4-wheel "Bobber" caboose was still being manufactured but the gondola and flat car was discontinued from their catalogs at this time.

In 1945, Mantua resumed the production of now 18 different refrigerator cars and 12 tanks cars. The 4-wheel "Bobber" caboose was brought back too and their 3 (baggage, Combination and coach) old time open vestibule passenger cars were introduced this year. A "new" 8-wheel caboose was added at this time. By 1947, 40' boxcars were offered in 12 different roadnames and high side gondolas were brought back, in 6 different roadnames. 32' 55-ton hopper cars were offered in 1948, in 6 different roadnames. All of these freight cars from 1941, on, were advertised as "All-Metal" although, except for the cabooses, all had heavy paper overlays.

The catalog Series Number 313 consisted of the plastic-bodied reefers with lithographed metal sides. There were six of them'; the first three (# 313A Burlington/CB&Q, # 313B Crazy Crystal and # 313C Borden's) were introduced in 1955 and the last three (# 313D Pluto Water, # 313E Land 'O Lakes and # 313F Baby Ruth) were introduced in 1956. I believe they were produced until 1959.

Ray Wetzel

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25449	From: Dave Audley	Date: 5/10/2016
Subject: Re: Hello I am a new member

daudley@...

Dave Audley

On Tuesday, May 10, 2016 11:14 AM, "Mike Bauers mwbauers55@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

> On May 10, 2016, at 5:34 AM, "Jim Waterman Watermaj@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>
> Face it guys,
>
> We're big boys playing with our toys.
> Work is that thing you do (or used to do) to pay the mortgage and buy
> food. This is fun.
>
> Jim Waterman
>
>
> ------------------------------------
> Posted by: Jim Waterman <watermaj@...>
> ------------------------------------
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo Groups Links
>
>
>

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25450	From: Jay Wanczyk	Date: 5/12/2016
Subject: Central Valley Re: [vintageHO] Vintage Mantua Cars

Attachments :

image-25450.jpg

Hi Ray W., and All: If I might add to the Central Valley part of your comment, according to their current website, Central Valley begin production of the old-timer freight car kits in 1947 and continue them till 1983. They still have a supply of the Zamac side door door castings available if anyone needs them for a restoration. The attached photo is from their current website. Several early model railroad individuals were involved, Harry Parker is named on the website but I also believe either Frank Weiss or George Hook may have been involved at one point. My research memory is a bit rusty from lack of currency, but I remember that the late 1940s Model Railroader magazines have quite a few mentions and ads from them. The following information is extrapolated from their current website:
"1100 Die-Cast Caboose Doors - (6 doors per package). These door are what is left over from the parts & supplies of the "Old Timer Kits". Central Valley produced the the Old Timer kits from 1947 through 1983." W. Jay W.

From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>;
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>;
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Vintage Mantua Cars
Sent: Tue, May 10, 2016 5:34:27 PM

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 5/9/2016 8:51:06 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, EriePacific@... writes:

Mantua first started producing freight cars in 1938, although not every type. They made a flat car, a high-side gondola and a 4-wheel "Bobber" caboose. They continued to make these three cars in 1939 and 1940. By 1941 and into early 1942, they were making refrigerator cars in 16 different roadnames, and tank cars in 8 different roadnames. The 4-wheel "Bobber" caboose was still being manufactured but the gondola and flat car was discontinued from their catalogs at this time.

In 1945, Mantua resumed the production of now 18 different refrigerator cars and 12 tanks cars. The 4-wheel "Bobber" caboose was brought back too and their 3 (baggage, Combination and coach) old time open vestibule passenger cars were introduced this year. A "new" 8-wheel caboose was added at this time. By 1947, 40' boxcars were offered in 12 different roadnames and high side gondolas were brought back, in 6 different roadnames. 32' 55-ton hopper cars were offered in 1948, in 6 different roadnames. All of these freight cars from 1941, on, were advertised as "All-Metal" although, except for the cabooses, all had heavy paper overlays.

The catalog Series Number 313 consisted of the plastic-bodied reefers with lithographed metal sides. There were six of them'; the first three (# 313A Burlington/CB&Q, # 313B Crazy Crystal and # 313C Borden's) were introduced in 1955 and the last three (# 313D Pluto Water, # 313E Land 'O Lakes and # 313F Baby Ruth) were introduced in 1956. I believe they were produced until 1959.

Ray Wetzel

@@attachment@@

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25451	From: rhbale8	Date: 5/12/2016
Subject: Re: Central Valley Re: [vintageHO] Vintage Mantua Cars [1 Attachment

Here is some background on Central Valley from a 1966 interview with George Hook.

In 1948 a firm named Central Valley Model Works entered the model railroad field with a product that very probably was one of the first items specifically intended for the modeler interested in adding super detail to stock locomotives. Central Valley’s first produce was a valve gear kit for the ubiquitous Varney dockside switcher. The owner and guiding hand at CV since those early and sometimes lean days is a talented gentlemanly individual, whose name is George Hook. Today, thousands of model railroaders consider the name Central Valley the standard of quality in HO car trucks and craftsman car kits of the truss rod era.

The CV line includes 12 types of precision HO car trucks and 22 old time car kits representing four basic body styles of box, refrigerator, and ventilator cars plus a side-door caboose. The car sides are pre-painted and printed on a fine grade of plywood imported from Switzerland. CV holds NMRA Warrant #7, and George Hook is particularly proud of the low number of certification which signifies early conformance to NMRA Standards. Both of CV’s basic product categories clearly reflect the formal engineering background of George Hook, as well as his personal fascination for the architecture of railway rolling stock during the period from 1880 to 1910.

CV was not George Hooks first venture into model railroad manufacturing. He was one of the principals of Micro-Motive, a firm which shortly after WWII introduced one of the hobby’s first free-rolling trucks in HO. George designed the Micro-Motive trucks and developed a technique of insulating wheels at the hub with a baked varnish process. This same technique is used today in manufacturing CV wheel sets and trucks. and although it is a relatively complicated and expensive process, George considers it to be the best way to electrically insulate a wheel and still maintain a high degree of mechanical precision.

George Hook says his hobby is “railway modeling” and dryly adds that he usually finds “about ten minutes a month” for personal modeling. Although he was born in England, George calls himself a California native-in-law. He bases his claim on the fact that his gracious wife Marjorie is a native daughter of the Golden State. George studied electrical engineering at UCLA and Cal Tech, and like many Southern Californians he spent the war years in the aircraft industry. As assistant project engineer on the then secret P2V Neptune, George was one of the individuals who nursed the plane from the drawing board into a flying reality.

George is a long-time member of NMRA and PCR as well as the Southern California Hobby Industry Association and the Western Model Railroad Manufacturers Association. He has held numerous positions in the latter group, including the office of president.

George Hook is a quiet, precise individual with a fine sense of humor, but the most lasting impression one holds after visiting with him is that you have just had the distinct and all too often rare privilege of meeting a truly fine gentleman. – From a 1966 interview for NMRA Bulletin by Richard Bale.

2015 Update by Richard Bale…

Soon after WWII, Hook and other ex-Lockheed airplane engineers developed Micro-Motive HO trucks. They were excellent trucks but the marketing plan failed. As noted in the 1966 interview, Hook used the same manufacturing and insulation technique for his Central Valley trucks.

George Hook died in the mid-1970s and Central Valley was purchased by Jack Parker who moved the operation to Oceano, CA. Parker passed away in 2010 and Central Valley is now owned and operated by his son Jeff.

Jack Parker was an engineer and toolmaker at Mattel where he helped design models and tooling for practically everything including the Hot Wheels product line. He later moved to Revell where he worked closely with Al Armitage in bringing their famous engine house to market. Armitage built the pilot model and Parker designed and cut the tooling.

When George Hook started Central Valley in the late 1940s, it was located in San Fernando Valley at 13000 Saticoy Street, North Hollywood. There was a hot bed of model manufacturers in the immediate neighborhood including Cliff Line, Ulrich, and 410M Paint (Stewart-Lundhal) which had originally been developed by Model Die Casting. Bill Ulrich eventually bought 410M and produced both Ulrich kits and 410M paint out of 11423 Vanown St. North Hollywood. Central Valley Model Works was located at 13000 Saticoy St. North Hollywood, CA 91605, 410M Products at 11423 Vanowen St. North Hollywood, CA 91605.

Richard Bale

News & New Products Editor
Model Railroad Hobbyist magazine
Always free at mrhmag.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25452	From: Jay Wanczyk	Date: 5/12/2016
Subject: Re: Central Valley Re: [vintageHO] Vintage Mantua Cars

Hi Richard Bale,

Thanks For the Central Valley history, and clearing up the fact that it was George Hook who founded it; Harry Parker was a much later, second phase owner, (though he himself began in model railroading in 1947.) that part was not made clear on their website.

In the late 1940s, those Micro Motive trucks had A bit of an advertising campaign build up for them prior to their introduction in a series of small ads in MR, and they were/are excellent trucks, a great vintage replacement, especially for operators of other vintage brands of freight cars with less than satisfactory original trucks.

For anyone unfamiliar with them, the CV valve gear kits are still sought after and a great accessory for the Varney Dockside. The accompanying oversized instruction sheet is very well done and a bit entertaining as well, lettered and written in the same manner as the CV "Old-timer" freight car kits – no doubt reflecting Mr. Hook'a personality. Have to see if it is on HOSeeker.com, if not will try to scan the large sheet and forward it.

CV also made an accessory valve gear for the John English PRR B class 0-4-0 switcher which I have yet to find an example of. Now back to the (volunteer) salt mine!

W. Jay W.

From: Rhbale@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>;
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>;
Subject: Re: Central Valley Re: [vintageHO] Vintage Mantua Cars
Sent: Thu, May 12, 2016 2:36:18 PM

Here is some background on Central Valley from a 1966 interview with George Hook.

2015 Update by Richard Bale…

Richard Bale

News & New Products Editor
Model Railroad Hobbyist magazine
Always free at mrhmag.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25453	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 5/13/2016
Subject: Re: Central Valley Re: [vintageHO] Vintage Mantua Cars [1 Attachment

Hi W.Jay W.,

Your additions are most appreciated. I figured Central Valley started around this time, although I didn't know exactly what year. Interesting that they still have an inventory of Zamak door castings. By "side door" door castings, I see that you're referring to the side door cabooses rather than for the reefers. Odd that their website lists no other Zamak parts for the other models. I notice that Richard Bale has added to this commentary, getting further into some detail. With Richard's comments, that saves me from going through the HOSC&H SIG "Reporting Mark" bulletins to find more on this manufacturer, although I still may take some time to research that source again. Many thanks for including what you have here; I found it valuable.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 5/12/2016 9:54:31 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Hi Ray W., and All: If I might add to the Central Valley part of your comment, according to their current website, Central Valley begin production of the old-timer freight car kits in 1947 and continue them till 1983. They still have a supply of the Zamac side door door castings available if anyone needs them for a restoration. The attached photo is from their current website. Several early model railroad individuals were involved, Harry Parker is named on the website but I also believe either Frank Weiss or George Hook may have been involved at one point. My research memory is a bit rusty from lack of currency, but I remember that the late 1940s Model Railroader magazines have quite a few mentions and ads from them. The following information is extrapolated from their current website:
"1100 Die-Cast Caboose Doors - (6 doors per package). These door are what is left over from the parts supplies of the "Old Timer Kits". Central Valley produced the the Old Timer kits from 1947 through 1983." W. Jay W.

From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>;
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>;
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Vintage Mantua Cars
Sent: Tue, May 10, 2016 5:34:27 PM

Just thought I'd finish up here on early vintage Mantua, since I pulled out some slightly later reference material this morning, that I should have referred to yesterday when writing my previous message on this topic. I remember someone here posting that Mantua produced a die-cast flat car, but I don't remember who it was. My apologies for not being able to find this post right now, to give them credit for this bit of info at this time.

While I did mention that Mantua produced flat cars in 1938, '39 and '40, they were not the same (as described in these early catalogs) as the later ones some of us are more familiar with. In reading a page from a loose-leaf Mantua dealer catalog dated 12/1/49, it shows the die-cast flat car that more of us own than the pre-war version (I have several of these later flat cars).  It is listed as Catalog # 308 in the Mantua HO Model Railroad Locomotive and Car Kit Replacement Parts list (dated 8/52). This car was factory painted similar to a Tuscan Red color but was not lettered nor did it come with paper sides to be adhered to the car's sides.

Further, the 1953 Mantua's HO Scale Model Railroad Cyclopedia includes a listing of 18 different roadnames for the 40' boxcar -- up from 12 roadnames included in the 1947 Mantua catalog. This kit was cataloged as Box Car Kit # 302. The car sides were cataloged in the # 9400 Series with the first one (Catalog # 9400) being the Baltimore & Ohio "Sentinel Service" and the last one (Catalog # 9417) being the Rock Island.

Someone here also mentioned Central Valley as a possible vintage H0 manufacturer but didn't know how far back they went. I believe they may have stated that they had some Central Valley and I again apologize for not remembering who they are and not being able to find their post again. Central Valley goes back at least to 1950, as they're included in that year's Model R.R. Equipment Corp. catalog. They may go back further, and any ads in earlier MR magazines would indicate this. Besides offering their fine quality rolling stock trucks, they produced a series of 34' truss-rod freight car kits.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 5/9/2016 8:51:06 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, EriePacific@... writes:

Mantua first started producing freight cars in 1938, although not every type. They made a flat car, a high-side gondola and a 4-wheel "Bobber" caboose. They continued to make these three cars in 1939 and 1940. By 1941 and into early 1942, they were making refrigerator cars in 16 different roadnames, and tank cars in 8 different roadnames. The 4-wheel "Bobber" caboose was still being manufactured but the gondola and flat car was discontinued from their catalogs at this time.

In 1945, Mantua resumed the production of now 18 different refrigerator cars and 12 tanks cars. The 4-wheel "Bobber" caboose was brought back too and their 3 (baggage, Combination and coach) old time open vestibule passenger cars were introduced this year.  A "new" 8-wheel caboose was added at this time. By 1947, 40' boxcars were offered in 12 different roadnames and high side gondolas were brought back, in 6 different roadnames.  32' 55-ton hopper cars were offered in 1948, in 6 different roadnames. All of these freight cars from 1941, on, were advertised as "All-Metal" although, except for the cabooses, all had heavy paper overlays.

The catalog Series Number 313 consisted of the plastic-bodied reefers with lithographed metal sides. There were six of them'; the first three (# 313A Burlington/CB&Q, # 313B Crazy Crystal and # 313C Borden's) were introduced in 1955 and the last three (# 313D Pluto Water, # 313E Land 'O Lakes and # 313F Baby Ruth) were introduced in 1956. I believe they were produced until 1959.

Ray Wetzel

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25454	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 5/13/2016
Subject: Re: Central Valley Re: [vintageHO] Vintage Mantua Cars

Richard,

Thank you very much for the in-depth information on Central Valley Model Works and for a bit of the history behind this firm, including its founder George Hook and his successors, Jack Parker and his son Jeff Parker. The original Central Valley trucks were, and still are, considered as unequivocally the best trucks ever produced in H0 by most hobbyists. Your outline of this subject fills in a lot of factoids that aren't commonly known by many enthusiasts.

Yes, the specific Central Valley valve gear developed for the Varney Dockside was a real winner and a popular addition to this model. You may recall that I wrote a short piece on Gordon Varney in connection with this valve gear last year. I'll Forward that post to this present time, for your interest and for those you may enjoy seeing a refresher on this, right after posting this present message.

Yes, you're exactly right, Central Valley produced 12 types of (precision) "famous" freight and passenger car H0 trucks and 22 "Old Timer Freight Car Kits." Since we're on this manufacturer, this is probably as good of time as any to make them known. I have a number of these old time kits, but as this period does not fit into what I model, I mainly bought only roads that I've preferred as they'd look out of place if I ran them with much later equipment in the "1930's -- 1950's era." Coincidentally, Howell Day/ Red Ball produced no fewer than 59 different types of sprung H0 old time and modern -- freight, passenger, tender, caboose and traction trucks. I won't list those here unless I get a request from someone needing this information, but that advertised them as "The World's Greatest Variety of Trucks."

The passenger and freight trucks of Central Valley's production, as noted in the 1964 Walthers catalog, included:

6-Wheel Passenger

T-21 Riveted Frame -- for older heavy cars

T-22 Cast Frame -- for heavy all steel cars

4-Wheel Passenger

T-25 Riveted Frame -- for older cars and light coaches

T-31 Standard -- for baggage cars and day coaches

T-39 Streamliner -- for modern lightweight cars

Old-Time Freight

T-51 "Fox" Rigid Frame -- for light old-time cars

T-52 "Fox" Swing Motion -- for old-time stock cars and reefers

T-53 Arch Bar -- for all types of old-time freight cars

Modern Freight

T-55 Bettendorf -- today's standard for all modern cars

T-56 Roller Bearing -- with low-friction "Timken" bearing

T-57 Roller Bearing -- for high speed service, enclosed bearings

HOn3 Narrow Gauge

T-54 HOn3 Arch Bar -- a standard type on narrow gauge roads

For those here who would like to know the complete line of Central Valley Old Timer Freight Car Kits, they include:

Side Door Caboose Kits

C-91 0-3 Window Arrangement - Red

C-92 0-3 Window Arrangement - Yellow

C-93 1-2 Window Arrangement - Green

Refrigerator Car Kits

F-91 Phila & Reading

F-92 Cent RR of N.J.

F-93 Lehigh Valley

F-94 Cgo. Milw & StPaul

Ventilated Box Car Kits

R-91 Norfolk & Western

R-92 Georgia Midland & Gulf

R-93 Phila & Reading (P & R)

R-94 Mobile & Ohio

Old Time Box Car Kits

B-91 PRR "Union Line"

B-92 S.P. "Sunset Route"

B-93 Mich Cent "Canada So'n"

B-94 Cgo. Lake Shore & E'n

B-95 B&O "Balto & Ohio"

B-96 Cutler & Savidge Lmbr

B-98 Cent Pac Fruit "Fast"

B-99 Tonopah & Tidewater

B910 Arctic Oil Works

B911 Det Gnd Hav'n & MILW

Special Order Option Kits

Any Kit with Unpainted Sides

On the Stewart Lundahl/410M Paint, while I've currently misplaced my 410M Paint literature, the history of this line of paints was covered in my MDC/Roundhouse V File (in the archives). I believe that Roundhouse did not develop this line of paints but purchased them as needed from the Stewart Lundahl Company. The nineteen (including Clear Gloss and Clear Flat) different 410M Paint colors came in a unique (to Stewart Lundahl) 48cc -- cubic centimeter -- bottle that no other model paint manufacturers used, and was labeled "410M" in large white letters on a dark band -- as illustrated in the 1950 and 1953 Model R.R. Equipment Corp. catalogs. MDC/Roundhouse had Stewart Lundahl bottle these paints for them (MDC/Roundhouse) in the same 48 cc bottles, but specifically labeled "ROUNDHOUSE" in red letters on a black band -- as illustrated in the 1950, 1951 and 1953 Model Die Casting Co. catalogs; they (MDC Roundhouse) advertised it as "The Radiant Red & Black Label." In later years, as again found (illustrated) in the 1964 Walthers catalog, yes Bill Ulrich bought the 410M Paint line and offered them in the same 48 cc bottles. It should be noted that while most model railroad colors offered by these three firms were the same, there were some different colors offered by each of them, and each of them lacked a few colors that others offered. Example while Ulrich also offered 19 colors (same as MDC) they did not offer Clear Gloss or Clear Flat.

The detailed narrative of the history of Central Valley and the gentlemen behind it is nicely covered and very much appreciated. You covered a lot in a relatively small space; thanks.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 5/12/2016 10:36:26 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Here is some background on Central Valley from a 1966 interview with George Hook.

In 1948 a firm named Central Valley Model Works entered the model railroad field with a product that very probably was one of the first items specifically intended for the modeler interested in adding super detail to stock locomotives. Central Valley’s first produce was a valve gear kit for the ubiquitous Varney dockside switcher. The owner and guiding hand at CV since those early and sometimes lean days is a talented gentlemanly individual, whose name is George Hook. Today, thousands of model railroaders consider the name Central Valley the standard of quality in HO car trucks and craftsman car kits of the truss rod era.

The CV line includes 12 types of precision HO car trucks and 22 old time car kits representing four basic body styles of box, refrigerator, and ventilator cars plus a side-door caboose. The car sides are pre-painted and printed on a fine grade of plywood imported from Switzerland. CV holds NMRA Warrant #7, and George Hook is particularly proud of the low number of certification which signifies early conformance to NMRA Standards. Both of CV’s basic product categories clearly reflect the formal engineering background of George Hook, as well as his personal fascination for the architecture of railway rolling stock during the period from 1880 to 1910.

CV was not George Hooks first venture into model railroad manufacturing. He was one of the principals of Micro-Motive, a firm which shortly after WWII introduced one of the hobby’s first free-rolling trucks in HO. George designed the Micro-Motive trucks and developed a technique of insulating wheels at the hub with a baked varnish process. This same technique is used today in manufacturing CV wheel sets and trucks. and although it is a relatively complicated and expensive process, George considers it to be the best way to electrically insulate a wheel and still maintain a high degree of mechanical precision.

George Hook says his hobby is “railway modeling” and dryly adds that he usually finds “about ten minutes a month” for personal modeling. Although he was born in England, George calls himself a California native-in-law. He bases his claim on the fact that his gracious wife Marjorie is a native daughter of the Golden State. George studied electrical engineering at UCLA and Cal Tech, and like many Southern Californians he spent the war years in the aircraft industry. As assistant project engineer on the then secret P2V Neptune, George was one of the individuals who nursed the plane from the drawing board into a flying reality.

George is a long-time member of NMRA and PCR as well as the Southern California Hobby Industry Association and the Western Model Railroad Manufacturers Association. He has held numerous positions in the latter group, including the office of president.

George Hook is a quiet, precise individual with a fine sense of humor, but the most lasting impression one holds after visiting with him is that you have just had the distinct and all too often rare privilege of meeting a truly fine gentleman. – From a 1966 interview for NMRA Bulletin by Richard Bale.

2015 Update by Richard Bale…

Soon after WWII, Hook and other ex-Lockheed airplane engineers developed Micro-Motive HO trucks. They were excellent trucks but the marketing plan failed. As noted in the 1966 interview, Hook used the same manufacturing and insulation technique for his Central Valley trucks.

George Hook died in the mid-1970s and Central Valley was purchased by Jack Parker who moved the operation to Oceano, CA. Parker passed away in 2010 and Central Valley is now owned and operated by his son Jeff.

Jack Parker was an engineer and toolmaker at Mattel where he helped design models and tooling for practically everything including the Hot Wheels product line. He later moved to Revell where he worked closely with Al Armitage in bringing their famous engine house to market. Armitage built the pilot model and Parker designed and cut the tooling.

When George Hook started Central Valley in the late 1940s, it was located in San Fernando Valley at 13000 Saticoy Street, North Hollywood. There was a hot bed of model manufacturers in the immediate neighborhood including Cliff Line, Ulrich, and 410M Paint (Stewart-Lundhal) which had originally been developed by Model Die Casting. Bill Ulrich eventually bought 410M and produced both Ulrich kits and 410M paint out of 11423 Vanown St. North Hollywood. Central Valley Model Works was located at 13000 Saticoy St. North Hollywood, CA 91605, 410M Products at 11423 Vanowen St. North Hollywood, CA 91605.

Richard Bale

News & New Products Editor
Model Railroad Hobbyist magazine
Always free at mrhmag.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25455	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 5/13/2016
Subject: Re: Dockside Valve Gear

Richard,

As you'll note, the below message is from last June. Some of what I researched to offer this came from Varney catalogs and some came from the "Greenberg's Guide to Varney Trains," which I helped Dave Spanagel with. I left Vic's comment in here on the two Rivarossi versions as it's very informative.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 6/17/2015 1:06:17 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

As everyone is probably well aware, the die-cast pre-War Varney Dockside (# 415) and the early post-War Dockside (# 1551A), produced from 1946 through 1948, did not come with Central Valley Valve Gear. The same Dockside (# 1551A) was revised in 1949, with a new frame and new stampings for the crossheads and was produced into 1956. Varrney introduced Central Valley Valve Gear as an option in 1950 (Central Valley was marketing this valve gear on their own, to fit the Dockside well before this). As Varney was offering it though, and as Varney added it as an option in 1950, it appears that it was meant (by Varney) to be added to the revised version of the # 1551A, with the new frame. I don't know how much different the 1946-48 frame is as all of my Docksides are the 1949-56 version, but perhaps this is where the problem comes in, in trying to mount it to the earlier Docksides. As for the plastic-bodied Docksides, I don't know that the Central Valley Valve Gear is designed to be used on these models; it may not be if the frame is much different than on the die-cast models.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 6/16/2015 3:15:24 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Well, there are TWO versions of the Rivarossi with valve gear. The older version has the valve rod go directly into the upper cylinder and the newer version has the rod riding in a groove in the cylinder extension, which looks much more prototypical. The older version, while it doesn't look quite as nice is actually a better operating version. I only have the newer version and it causes problems every now and then with the rod getting displaced.
I have a Varney Docksider and the Central Valley valve gear kit and I do agree that the mounting for it is a bit hokey, but I am not sure how else they could have done it without redesigning the loco itself? I still think that if you do a really nice job on the Varney and add some brass details, the Varney could end up looking very very nice.
Regards, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

Posted by: EriePacific@...

Reply via web post • Reply to sender • Reply to group • Start a New Topic • Messages in this topic (1)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25456	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 5/13/2016
Subject: Re: Central Valley Re: [vintageHO] Vintage Mantua Cars

I have a bunch of T-21's and T-22's and a couple of T-25's and T-31's. I REALLY miss the T-25's and T-31's and wish I can find some at reasonable prices. They are going for some pretty high prices as are the Fox trucks. Maybe I can sell my set of Fox trucks and buy a couple of T-25's? VBG!

There was a rumor that the current owner was considering making the passenger trucks again. That is all I would like. The Kadee trucks do very good justice for most freight car trucks these days. I remember not toooo long ago, in the early 1970's when I was buying Central Valley freight trucks for $3.00 a piece and felt that was a decent price for a quality truck at that time. I also felt Kadee trucks were pretty darn good as well. I remember buying a set of Lindberg trucks for 50 cents and they were great, except they had plastic (Delrin?) wheelsets. Back then no one cared if wheelsets were plastic.

Regards, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, May 13, 2016 6:36 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: Central Valley Re: [vintageHO] Vintage Mantua Cars

Richard,

The passenger and freight trucks of Central Valley's production, as noted in the 1964 Walthers catalog, included:

6-Wheel Passenger

T-21 Riveted Frame -- for older heavy cars

T-22 Cast Frame -- for heavy all steel cars

4-Wheel Passenger

T-25 Riveted Frame -- for older cars and light coaches

T-31 Standard -- for baggage cars and day coaches

T-39 Streamliner -- for modern lightweight cars

Old-Time Freight

T-51 "Fox" Rigid Frame -- for light old-time cars

T-52 "Fox" Swing Motion -- for old-time stock cars and reefers

T-53 Arch Bar -- for all types of old-time freight cars

Modern Freight

T-55 Bettendorf -- today's standard for all modern cars

T-56 Roller Bearing -- with low-friction "Timken" bearing

T-57 Roller Bearing -- for high speed service, enclosed bearings

HOn3 Narrow Gauge

T-54 HOn3 Arch Bar -- a standard type on narrow gauge roads

For those here who would like to know the complete line of Central Valley Old Timer Freight Car Kits, they include:

Side Door Caboose Kits

C-91 0-3 Window Arrangement - Red

C-92 0-3 Window Arrangement - Yellow

C-93 1-2 Window Arrangement - Green

Refrigerator Car Kits

F-91 Phila & Reading

F-92 Cent RR of N.J.

F-93 Lehigh Valley

F-94 Cgo. Milw & StPaul

Ventilated Box Car Kits

R-91 Norfolk & Western

R-92 Georgia Midland & Gulf

R-93 Phila & Reading (P & R)

R-94 Mobile & Ohio

Old Time Box Car Kits

B-91 PRR "Union Line"

B-92 S.P. "Sunset Route"

B-93 Mich Cent "Canada So'n"

B-94 Cgo. Lake Shore & E'n

B-95 B&O "Balto & Ohio"

B-96 Cutler & Savidge Lmbr

B-98 Cent Pac Fruit "Fast"

B-99 Tonopah & Tidewater

B910 Arctic Oil Works

B911 Det Gnd Hav'n & MILW

Special Order Option Kits

Any Kit with Unpainted Sides

The detailed narrative of the history of Central Valley and the gentlemen behind it is nicely covered and very much appreciated. You covered a lot in a relatively small space; thanks.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 5/12/2016 10:36:26 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Here is some background on Central Valley from a 1966 interview with George Hook.

In 1948 a firm named Central Valley Model Works entered the model railroad field with a product that very probably was one of the first items specifically intended for the modeler interested in adding super detail to stock locomotives. Central Valley’s first produce was a valve gear kit for the ubiquitous Varney dockside switcher. The owner and guiding hand at CV since those early and sometimes lean days is a talented gentlemanly individual, whose name is George Hook. Today, thousands of model railroaders consider the name Central Valley the standard of quality in HO car trucks and craftsman car kits of the truss rod era.

The CV line includes 12 types of precision HO car trucks and 22 old time car kits representing four basic body styles of box, refrigerator, and ventilator cars plus a side-door caboose. The car sides are pre-painted and printed on a fine grade of plywood imported from Switzerland. CV holds NMRA Warrant #7, and George Hook is particularly proud of the low number of certification which signifies early conformance to NMRA Standards. Both of CV’s basic product categories clearly reflect the formal engineering background of George Hook, as well as his personal fascination for the architecture of railway rolling stock during the period from 1880 to 1910.

CV was not George Hooks first venture into model railroad manufacturing. He was one of the principals of Micro-Motive, a firm which shortly after WWII introduced one of the hobby’s first free-rolling trucks in HO. George designed the Micro-Motive trucks and developed a technique of insulating wheels at the hub with a baked varnish process. This same technique is used today in manufacturing CV wheel sets and trucks. and although it is a relatively complicated and expensive process, George considers it to be the best way to electrically insulate a wheel and still maintain a high degree of mechanical precision.

George Hook says his hobby is “railway modeling” and dryly adds that he usually finds “about ten minutes a month” for personal modeling. Although he was born in England, George calls himself a California native-in-law. He bases his claim on the fact that his gracious wife Marjorie is a native daughter of the Golden State. George studied electrical engineering at UCLA and Cal Tech, and like many Southern Californians he spent the war years in the aircraft industry. As assistant project engineer on the then secret P2V Neptune, George was one of the individuals who nursed the plane from the drawing board into a flying reality.

George is a long-time member of NMRA and PCR as well as the Southern California Hobby Industry Association and the Western Model Railroad Manufacturers Association. He has held numerous positions in the latter group, including the office of president.

George Hook is a quiet, precise individual with a fine sense of humor, but the most lasting impression one holds after visiting with him is that you have just had the distinct and all too often rare privilege of meeting a truly fine gentleman. – From a 1966 interview for NMRA Bulletin by Richard Bale.

2015 Update by Richard Bale…

Soon after WWII, Hook and other ex-Lockheed airplane engineers developed Micro-Motive HO trucks. They were excellent trucks but the marketing plan failed. As noted in the 1966 interview, Hook used the same manufacturing and insulation technique for his Central Valley trucks.

George Hook died in the mid-1970s and Central Valley was purchased by Jack Parker who moved the operation to Oceano, CA. Parker passed away in 2010 and Central Valley is now owned and operated by his son Jeff.

Jack Parker was an engineer and toolmaker at Mattel where he helped design models and tooling for practically everything including the Hot Wheels product line. He later moved to Revell where he worked closely with Al Armitage in bringing their famous engine house to market. Armitage built the pilot model and Parker designed and cut the tooling.

When George Hook started Central Valley in the late 1940s, it was located in San Fernando Valley at 13000 Saticoy Street, North Hollywood. There was a hot bed of model manufacturers in the immediate neighborhood including Cliff Line, Ulrich, and 410M Paint (Stewart-Lundhal) which had originally been developed by Model Die Casting. Bill Ulrich eventually bought 410M and produced both Ulrich kits and 410M paint out of 11423 Vanown St. North Hollywood. Central Valley Model Works was located at 13000 Saticoy St. North Hollywood, CA 91605, 410M Products at 11423 Vanowen St. North Hollywood, CA 91605.

Richard Bale

News & New Products Editor
Model Railroad Hobbyist magazine
Always free at mrhmag.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25457	From: Dave Audley	Date: 5/13/2016
Subject: Re: Central Valley Re: [vintageHO] Vintage Mantua Cars

Another interesting fact about MDC/Roundhouse is that kits were packaged here in Calgary

in the mid 1950's! I have 2 of these kits with "CALGARY, ALBERTA, CANADA" on the label!

Dave Audley

On Friday, May 13, 2016 4:36 PM, "eriepacific@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Richard,

The passenger and freight trucks of Central Valley's production, as noted in the 1964 Walthers catalog, included:

6-Wheel Passenger

T-21 Riveted Frame -- for older heavy cars

T-22 Cast Frame -- for heavy all steel cars

4-Wheel Passenger

T-25 Riveted Frame -- for older cars and light coaches

T-31 Standard -- for baggage cars and day coaches

T-39 Streamliner -- for modern lightweight cars

Old-Time Freight

T-51 "Fox" Rigid Frame -- for light old-time cars

T-52 "Fox" Swing Motion -- for old-time stock cars and reefers

T-53 Arch Bar -- for all types of old-time freight cars

Modern Freight

T-55 Bettendorf -- today's standard for all modern cars

T-56 Roller Bearing -- with low-friction "Timken" bearing

T-57 Roller Bearing -- for high speed service, enclosed bearings

HOn3 Narrow Gauge

T-54 HOn3 Arch Bar -- a standard type on narrow gauge roads

For those here who would like to know the complete line of Central Valley Old Timer Freight Car Kits, they include:

Side Door Caboose Kits

C-91 0-3 Window Arrangement - Red

C-92 0-3 Window Arrangement - Yellow

C-93 1-2 Window Arrangement - Green

Refrigerator Car Kits

F-91 Phila & Reading

F-92 Cent RR of N.J.

F-93 Lehigh Valley

F-94 Cgo. Milw & StPaul

Ventilated Box Car Kits

R-91 Norfolk & Western

R-92 Georgia Midland & Gulf

R-93 Phila & Reading (P & R)

R-94 Mobile & Ohio

Old Time Box Car Kits

B-91 PRR "Union Line"

B-92 S.P. "Sunset Route"

B-93 Mich Cent "Canada So'n"

B-94 Cgo. Lake Shore & E'n

B-95 B&O "Balto & Ohio"

B-96 Cutler & Savidge Lmbr

B-98 Cent Pac Fruit "Fast"

B-99 Tonopah & Tidewater

B910 Arctic Oil Works

B911 Det Gnd Hav'n & MILW

Special Order Option Kits

Any Kit with Unpainted Sides

The detailed narrative of the history of Central Valley and the gentlemen behind it is nicely covered and very much appreciated. You covered a lot in a relatively small space; thanks.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 5/12/2016 10:36:26 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Here is some background on Central Valley from a 1966 interview with George Hook.

In 1948 a firm named Central Valley Model Works entered the model railroad field with a product that very probably was one of the first items specifically intended for the modeler interested in adding super detail to stock locomotives. Central Valley’s first produce was a valve gear kit for the ubiquitous Varney dockside switcher. The owner and guiding hand at CV since those early and sometimes lean days is a talented gentlemanly individual, whose name is George Hook. Today, thousands of model railroaders consider the name Central Valley the standard of quality in HO car trucks and craftsman car kits of the truss rod era.

The CV line includes 12 types of precision HO car trucks and 22 old time car kits representing four basic body styles of box, refrigerator, and ventilator cars plus a side-door caboose. The car sides are pre-painted and printed on a fine grade of plywood imported from Switzerland. CV holds NMRA Warrant #7, and George Hook is particularly proud of the low number of certification which signifies early conformance to NMRA Standards. Both of CV’s basic product categories clearly reflect the formal engineering background of George Hook, as well as his personal fascination for the architecture of railway rolling stock during the period from 1880 to 1910.

CV was not George Hooks first venture into model railroad manufacturing. He was one of the principals of Micro-Motive, a firm which shortly after WWII introduced one of the hobby’s first free-rolling trucks in HO. George designed the Micro-Motive trucks and developed a technique of insulating wheels at the hub with a baked varnish process. This same technique is used today in manufacturing CV wheel sets and trucks. and although it is a relatively complicated and expensive process, George considers it to be the best way to electrically insulate a wheel and still maintain a high degree of mechanical precision.

George Hook says his hobby is “railway modeling” and dryly adds that he usually finds “about ten minutes a month” for personal modeling. Although he was born in England, George calls himself a California native-in-law. He bases his claim on the fact that his gracious wife Marjorie is a native daughter of the Golden State. George studied electrical engineering at UCLA and Cal Tech, and like many Southern Californians he spent the war years in the aircraft industry. As assistant project engineer on the then secret P2V Neptune, George was one of the individuals who nursed the plane from the drawing board into a flying reality.

George is a long-time member of NMRA and PCR as well as the Southern California Hobby Industry Association and the Western Model Railroad Manufacturers Association. He has held numerous positions in the latter group, including the office of president.

George Hook is a quiet, precise individual with a fine sense of humor, but the most lasting impression one holds after visiting with him is that you have just had the distinct and all too often rare privilege of meeting a truly fine gentleman. – From a 1966 interview for NMRA Bulletin by Richard Bale.

2015 Update by Richard Bale…

Soon after WWII, Hook and other ex-Lockheed airplane engineers developed Micro-Motive HO trucks. They were excellent trucks but the marketing plan failed. As noted in the 1966 interview, Hook used the same manufacturing and insulation technique for his Central Valley trucks.

George Hook died in the mid-1970s and Central Valley was purchased by Jack Parker who moved the operation to Oceano, CA. Parker passed away in 2010 and Central Valley is now owned and operated by his son Jeff.

Jack Parker was an engineer and toolmaker at Mattel where he helped design models and tooling for practically everything including the Hot Wheels product line. He later moved to Revell where he worked closely with Al Armitage in bringing their famous engine house to market. Armitage built the pilot model and Parker designed and cut the tooling.

When George Hook started Central Valley in the late 1940s, it was located in San Fernando Valley at 13000 Saticoy Street, North Hollywood. There was a hot bed of model manufacturers in the immediate neighborhood including Cliff Line, Ulrich, and 410M Paint (Stewart-Lundhal) which had originally been developed by Model Die Casting. Bill Ulrich eventually bought 410M and produced both Ulrich kits and 410M paint out of 11423 Vanown St. North Hollywood. Central Valley Model Works was located at 13000 Saticoy St. North Hollywood, CA 91605, 410M Products at 11423 Vanowen St. North Hollywood, CA 91605.

Richard Bale

News & New Products Editor
Model Railroad Hobbyist magazine
Always free at mrhmag.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25458	From: rhbale8	Date: 5/13/2016
Subject: Re: Central Valley Re: [vintageHO] Vintage Mantua Cars

Dave...

I've followed MDC/Roundhouse rather closely over the years and have never heard about the "Calgary" kits. That is a real surprise. I met with Clarence Menteer several times in the late 50s and often snooped around the factory. MDC's sales tanked when Athearn dumped plastic on the market but uncle Irv who was just down the road a couple of miles helped Clarence out by selling him undec shells for pennies.

Can you tell us more about them "Calgary" cars: type of car, metal frame or plastic, road name, etc... Were they widely distributed or just from one or two dealers and perhaps a more definitive date?

Thanks.

Richard Bale

Another interesting fact about MDC/Roundhouse is that kits were packaged here in Calgary

in the mid 1950's! I have 2 of these kits with "CALGARY, ALBERTA, CANADA" on the label!

Dave Audley

On Friday, May 13, 2016 4:36 PM, "eriepacific@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Richard,

Thank you very much for the in-depth information on Central Valley Model Works and for a bit of the history behind this firm, including its founder George Hook and his successors, Jack Parker and his son Jeff Parker. The original Central Valley trucks were, and still are, considered as unequivocally the best trucks ever produced in H0 by most hobbyists. Your outline of this subject fills in a lot of factoids that aren't commonly known by many enthusiasts.

Yes, the specific Central Valley valve gear developed for the Varney Dockside was a real winner and a popular addition to this model. You may recall that I wrote a short piece on Gordon Varney in connection with this valve gear last year. I'll Forward that post to this present time, for your interest and for those you may enjoy seeing a refresher on this, right after posting this present message.

Yes, you're exactly right, Central Valley produced 12 types of (precision) "famous" freight and passenger car H0 trucks and 22 "Old Timer Freight Car Kits." Since we're on this manufacturer, this is probably as good of time as any to make them known. I have a number of these old time kits, but as this period does not fit into what I model, I mainly bought only roads that I've preferred as they'd look out of place if I ran them with much later equipment in the "1930's -- 1950's era." Coincidentally, Howell Day/ Red Ball produced no fewer than 59 different types of sprung H0 old time and modern -- freight, passenger, tender, caboose and traction trucks. I won't list those here unless I get a request from someone needing this information, but that advertised them as "The World's Greatest Variety of Trucks."

The passenger and freight trucks of Central Valley's production, as noted in the 1964 Walthers catalog, included:

6-Wheel Passenger

T-21 Riveted Frame -- for older heavy cars

T-22 Cast Frame -- for heavy all steel cars

4-Wheel Passenger

T-25 Riveted Frame -- for older cars and light coaches

T-31 Standard -- for baggage cars and day coaches

T-39 Streamliner -- for modern lightweight cars

Old-Time Freight

T-51 "Fox" Rigid Frame -- for light old-time cars

T-52 "Fox" Swing Motion -- for old-time stock cars and reefers

T-53 Arch Bar -- for all types of old-time freight cars

Modern Freight

T-55 Bettendorf -- today's standard for all modern cars

T-56 Roller Bearing -- with low-friction "Timken" bearing

T-57 Roller Bearing -- for high speed service, enclosed bearings

HOn3 Narrow Gauge

T-54 HOn3 Arch Bar -- a standard type on narrow gauge roads

For those here who would like to know the complete line of Central Valley Old Timer Freight Car Kits, they include:

Side Door Caboose Kits

C-91 0-3 Window Arrangement - Red

C-92 0-3 Window Arrangement - Yellow

C-93 1-2 Window Arrangement - Green

Refrigerator Car Kits

F-91 Phila & Reading

F-92 Cent RR of N.J.

F-93 Lehigh Valley

F-94 Cgo. Milw & StPaul

Ventilated Box Car Kits

R-91 Norfolk & Western

R-92 Georgia Midland & Gulf

R-93 Phila & Reading (P & R)

R-94 Mobile & Ohio

Old Time Box Car Kits

B-91 PRR "Union Line"

B-92 S.P. "Sunset Route"

B-93 Mich Cent "Canada So'n"

B-94 Cgo. Lake Shore & E'n

B-95 B&O "Balto & Ohio"

B-96 Cutler & Savidge Lmbr

B-98 Cent Pac Fruit "Fast"

B-99 Tonopah & Tidewater

B910 Arctic Oil Works

B911 Det Gnd Hav'n & MILW

Special Order Option Kits

Any Kit with Unpainted Sides

On the Stewart Lundahl/410M Paint, while I've currently misplaced my 410M Paint literature, the history of this line of paints was covered in my MDC/Roundhouse V File (in the archives). I believe that Roundhouse did not develop this line of paints but purchased them as needed from the Stewart Lundahl Company. The nineteen (including Clear Gloss and Clear Flat) different 410M Paint colors came in a unique (to Stewart Lundahl) 48cc -- cubic centimeter -- bottle that no other model paint manufacturers used, and was labeled "410M" in large white letters on a dark band -- as illustrated in the 1950 and 1953 Model R.R. Equipment Corp. catalogs. MDC/Roundhouse had Stewart Lundahl bottle these paints for them (MDC/Roundhouse) in the same 48 cc bottles, but specifically labeled "ROUNDHOUSE" in red letters on a black band -- as illustrated in the 1950, 1951 and 1953 Model Die Casting Co. catalogs; they (MDC Roundhouse) advertised it as "The Radiant Red & Black Label." In later years, as again found (illustrated) in the 1964 Walthers catalog, yes Bill Ulrich bought the 410M Paint line and offered them in the same 48 cc bottles. It should be noted that while most model railroad colors offered by these three firms were the same, there were some different colors offered by each of them, and each of them lacked a few colors that others offered. Example while Ulrich also offered 19 colors (same as MDC) they did not offer Clear Gloss or Clear Flat.

The detailed narrative of the history of Central Valley and the gentlemen behind it is nicely covered and very much appreciated. You covered a lot in a relatively small space; thanks.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 5/12/2016 10:36:26 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Here is some background on Central Valley from a 1966 interview with George Hook.

In 1948 a firm named Central Valley Model Works entered the model railroad field with a product that very probably was one of the first items specifically intended for the modeler interested in adding super detail to stock locomotives. Central Valley’s first produce was a valve gear kit for the ubiquitous Varney dockside switcher. The owner and guiding hand at CV since those early and sometimes lean days is a talented gentlemanly individual, whose name is George Hook. Today, thousands of model railroaders consider the name Central Valley the standard of quality in HO car trucks and craftsman car kits of the truss rod era.

The CV line includes 12 types of precision HO car trucks and 22 old time car kits representing four basic body styles of box, refrigerator, and ventilator cars plus a side-door caboose. The car sides are pre-painted and printed on a fine grade of plywood imported from Switzerland. CV holds NMRA Warrant #7, and George Hook is particularly proud of the low number of certification which signifies early conformance to NMRA Standards. Both of CV’s basic product categories clearly reflect the formal engineering background of George Hook, as well as his personal fascination for the architecture of railway rolling stock during the period from 1880 to 1910.

CV was not George Hooks first venture into model railroad manufacturing. He was one of the principals of Micro-Motive, a firm which shortly after WWII introduced one of the hobby’s first free-rolling trucks in HO. George designed the Micro-Motive trucks and developed a technique of insulating wheels at the hub with a baked varnish process. This same technique is used today in manufacturing CV wheel sets and trucks. and although it is a relatively complicated and expensive process, George considers it to be the best way to electrically insulate a wheel and still maintain a high degree of mechanical precision.

George Hook says his hobby is “railway modeling” and dryly adds that he usually finds “about ten minutes a month” for personal modeling. Although he was born in England, George calls himself a California native-in-law. He bases his claim on the fact that his gracious wife Marjorie is a native daughter of the Golden State. George studied electrical engineering at UCLA and Cal Tech, and like many Southern Californians he spent the war years in the aircraft industry. As assistant project engineer on the then secret P2V Neptune, George was one of the individuals who nursed the plane from the drawing board into a flying reality.

George is a long-time member of NMRA and PCR as well as the Southern California Hobby Industry Association and the Western Model Railroad Manufacturers Association. He has held numerous positions in the latter group, including the office of president.

George Hook is a quiet, precise individual with a fine sense of humor, but the most lasting impression one holds after visiting with him is that you have just had the distinct and all too often rare privilege of meeting a truly fine gentleman. – From a 1966 interview for NMRA Bulletin by Richard Bale.

2015 Update by Richard Bale…

Soon after WWII, Hook and other ex-Lockheed airplane engineers developed Micro-Motive HO trucks. They were excellent trucks but the marketing plan failed. As noted in the 1966 interview, Hook used the same manufacturing and insulation technique for his Central Valley trucks.

George Hook died in the mid-1970s and Central Valley was purchased by Jack Parker who moved the operation to Oceano, CA. Parker passed away in 2010 and Central Valley is now owned and operated by his son Jeff.

Jack Parker was an engineer and toolmaker at Mattel where he helped design models and tooling for practically everything including the Hot Wheels product line. He later moved to Revell where he worked closely with Al Armitage in bringing their famous engine house to market. Armitage built the pilot model and Parker designed and cut the tooling.

When George Hook started Central Valley in the late 1940s, it was located in San Fernando Valley at 13000 Saticoy Street, North Hollywood. There was a hot bed of model manufacturers in the immediate neighborhood including Cliff Line, Ulrich, and 410M Paint (Stewart-Lundhal) which had originally been developed by Model Die Casting. Bill Ulrich eventually bought 410M and produced both Ulrich kits and 410M paint out of 11423 Vanown St. North Hollywood. Central Valley Model Works was located at 13000 Saticoy St. North Hollywood, CA 91605, 410M Products at 11423 Vanowen St. North Hollywood, CA 91605.

Richard Bale

News & New Products Editor
Model Railroad Hobbyist magazine
Always free at

mrhmag.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25459	From: Anspach Denny	Date: 5/14/2016
Subject: Re: Central Valley

My particular interests are in vintage products that were scale models in the best sense (or close to) that can also all these years later appear amongst and operate with the best in my particular world of current prototype scale modeling. In this and other respects, this has been and is an extremely interesting and informative thread, and I thank Richard Bale for his good work.

George Hook’s Central Valley products were a class act, way ahead of their time in many respects, and most have very well stood up to the tests of time.

Here are some bulleted random comments 'ready for your deletion’!:

* Side door caboose: These are simply some of the very finest kit models ever. I have two finely-built models built by the late Fred Cribbins c. 1955, one red beautifully hand lettered for Irving Fallberg’s delightfully- fictitious, funny, and famous FIDDLETOWN & COPPEROPOLIS Railway; and another unlettered green. I smile overtime I look at them.

* Passenger car trucks: Although first produced in the late ‘40s, these trucks still stand up to the test of time in their adherence to the fundamental elements of 1:87 scale. All but T31 are still my go-to trucks for my prototype operating heavy weight passenger car modeling, whether brass, composite, resin or plastic.

Hook must have been meticulous in the standards that he set for the castings inasmuch as there has been close to zero (not zero!) zinc pest in even developing in the very earliest productions. He soon developed some snap-in wire/plastic brake hangers and shoes that made these already handsome trucks look even better. At the end of Hook’s production (or at the beginning of Parkers?) one or the other replaced these hangers with new snap in molded plastic end transoms/brake hangers/shoes that raised the bar even higher. These were not produced very long.

Despite a lot of reputation and urban mythology about *free-rolling*, they were not by current standards (although perhaps arguably better than the competition at the time). I routinely replace all of the Hook and succeeding Parker wheels with Reboxx axle sets, improving roll-ability varying from about 50% up to 500%. The taper of the bearing holes were to Hook’s own standards (not NMRA’s), and the wheel tread contour that Hook developed over the years was different than the RP 25 adopted by most others (they both shared a flange reduction from 0.030” to 0.025” and the addition of a fillet tween tread and flange). The bearing hole difference creates some issues when it comes to wheel set replacement.

T-39 This ’streamline’ truck, produced in two, and later four spring, versions is an odd ball, the prototype only serving in a relatively few Pullman-produced coaches, namely the distinctive ‘American Flyer’ cars produced by Pullman-owned Osgood-Bradley for B&M, NH, Bangor & Aroostook, LV, Seaboard, and Cotton Belt (others?). They are very close to the Milwaukee Road-made trucks under the Hiawatha cars of 1934, and in this regard, I use them (with Reboxx replacements) under all of brass Hiawatha cars of the time.

* Freight car trucks: These have not stood up to the tests of time as well as the passenger trucks, largely because they have such very thick side frames. One can only speculate why this was so, but I would imagine that this was so because virtually none, i.e. zip, nada, non of prototype freight car truck plans include any data whatsoever about side frame thickness (competitive proprietary reasons), so one has to guess, gather field measurements, or compromise on the parameters of model manufacturing process and material tolerances extant at the time.

Two CV freight car trucks that I treasure are the Fox Patent trucks and short arch bar trucks. Virtually no one else has modeled the Fox trucks, and only very recently has an extremely fine similar plastic short (5’) arch bar truck become available. As we speak, I am installing the CV arch bars on some Westerfield resin ore cars, where they not only look good, are correct for the cars, but also have the weight required for these very light weight models.

*Docksider valve gear: I installed this gear on my Docksider (1946) soon after CV first produced it, and both then and today, it simply *makes* the model, and no one today today produces valve gear to such a fine degree.

*Paint: Because of their lead content, the 3M colors were rich, and are virtually impossible to match currently- a problem very familiar to most attempting to restore models from the period. I still have some bottles, which I guard. A mystery to me is that 3M paints never show up at shows, or (at least when I look over the years) on eBay, etc. If sealed, these paints last good for use for years. Now, however, the 3M paints (vinyl?) that they produced for plastic were some of the worst model paints ever on the market.

*Advertising: Yesterday I noted CV’s first (or close to first) ad for his trucks in a 1948 HO MONTHLY, and the air brushed photo of one of three axle trucks had the professional sophistication, polish, poise and finish that would have made it a class act still today! The drawings on the face of an unopened new/old stock CV Docksider valve gear depicts this same aura of artistry and high scale quality.

Where to find: I have routinely picked up CV passenger trucks at various shows, etc. over the years, very commonly attached to derelict or poorly built models passed by by most others. Purchased most often for the price of the model, e.g. $1.00-$5.00, I salvage the trucks, replacing them with other inferior trucks out of my own scrap pile, and resell the model often for the same price.

As we speak, and as I am preparing a number of kit projects to take to our summer residence for several months, I am preparing three sets of CV trucks out of inventory: replacement of the original 36” brass deep flange wheels with 33” Reboxx wheel sets in a T-25 to be installed on a resin NYC express car; ditto for one each T-21 and 22 3 axle trucks for etched brass Milwaukee ’60’ RPO and a CB&Q ’80’ diner.

Great products, produced by a person with extraordinary talents and high standards.

Denny

Denny S. Anspach, MD
Sacramento, CA 95864

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25460	From: David Emery	Date: 5/15/2016
Subject: Fox trucks

Eric Cox (Panamint Models) has several kinds of Fox trucks available on Shapeways, as well as other 19th century truck designs: https://www.shapeways.com/shops/panamintmodels The FUD material on Shapeways doesn’t have any give to it, you have to be careful when inserting wheelsets. But the material glues back together quite nicely with CA. One suggestion I’ve read is to carefully soak/saturate the material with very thin CA (after you’ve thoroughly cleaned the parts to get any residual casting material from them.)

dave

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25461	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 5/15/2016
Subject: Re: Fox trucks

As for Fox trucks, this is one of the many freight truck designs that Red Ball produced. I guess now's as good of time as any to list all of Red Ball's freight, passenger and other trucks produced by Howell Day -- so here they are below. The figures given after the description indicate prototype wheelbase and then prototype wheel diameter. The abbreviation (Letter) indicates "Rigid" (R) or "Sprung" (S). All have insulated metal wheels with RP-25 contour.

FOUR-WHEEL FREIGHT & TENDER TRUCKS

T-1 Allied Full Cushion -- 5 1/2', 33", R

T-2 Bettendorf Heavy Duty -- 5 1/2', 33", R

T-3 Gould Heavy Duty -- 5 1/2', 33", R

T-4 Bettendorf T-Section -- 5 1/2', 33", R

T-5 Bettendorf U-Section -- 5 1/2', 33", R

T-6 Standard Arch Bar -- 5 1/2', 33", R

T-7 Diamond Arch Bar -- 5 1/2', 33", R

T-8 Stafford Roller Arch Bar -- 5 1/2', 33", R

T-9 Leaf Spring Arch Bar -- 5 1/2', 33", R

T-10 Bettendorf Swing Motion -- 5 1/2', 33", R

T-11 1870 Wood Beam -- 5 1/2', 26", R

T-12 Symington-Gould Tender -- 5 1/2', 33", R

T-13 Barber Stabilized Timken -- 5 1/2', 33", R

T-14 Simplex High Speed -- 5 1/2', 33", R

T-15 Pilcher Trussed Arch Bar -- 5 1/2', 33", R

T-16 Barber Stabilized -- 5 1/2', 33", R

T-17 Taylor Coil Spring -- 5 1/2', 33", R

T-18 Taylor Leaf Spring -- 5 1/2', 33", R

T-19 Symington-Gould Hi-Speed -- 5 1/2', 33", R

T-20 Vulcan -- 5 1/2', 33", R

FOUR-WHEEL SPECIAL FREIGHT TRUCKS

T-21 Symington Wrought Steel -- 5 1/2', 33", R

T-22 Wood Beam -- 4', 33", R

T-23 Fox Pressed Steel -- 5 1/2', 33", R

T-24 Dalman Two-Level -- 5 1/2', 33", R

T-25 National Tye B -- 5 1/2', 33", R

T-26 Andrews Coil Spring -- 5 1/2', 33", S

T-27 Andrews Coil Spring -- 5 1/2', 33", R

T-28 Andrews Leaf Spring -- 5 1/2', 33", R

T-31 Recent Arch Bar -- 5 1/2', 33", S

T-32 Bettendorf Standard -- 5 1/2', 33", S

T-33 Arch Bar Leaf Spring -- 5 1/2', 33", S

T-34 Timken Roller Bearing -- 5 1/2', 33", S

T-36 Log Car Trucks -- 4', 24", R

SIX-WHEEL FREIGHT TRUCKS

T-40 Buckeye Plain Journal -- 9', 33", R

T-41 N&W Pilcher Patent -- 8 1/2', 33", R

T-42 Commonwealth Tender -- 8 1/2', 33", R

T-43 Buckeye Roller Journal -- 10', 36", R

T-44 Lamont Low Slung -- 8 1/2', 36", R

FOUR-WHEEL EXPRESS or PASSENGER TRUCKWS

T-48 Commonwealth -- 8', 36", S

T-50 Commonwealth -- 8', 36", R

T-51 Pennsy Roller Bearing -- 8', 36", R

T-52 Standard Roller Bearing -- 8', 36", R

FOUR-WHEEL PASSENGER TRUCKS

T-22 Wood Beam -- 4', 33", R

T-60 Old Style Plain Journal -- 7'-3", 36", R

T-61 Commonwealth Top Equalized -- 8', 36", R

T-62 SP Streamlined -- 9', 36", R

T-63 UP Challenger -- 8 1/2', 36", R

T-64 Late Wood Beam -- 6 1/2', 36", S

SIX-WHEEL PASSENGER TRUCKS

T-70 Commonwealth Top Equalized -- 11', 36", R

T-71 Pullman Cast Type -- 11', 36", R

SPECIAL PURPOSE TRUCKS

T-66 PRR 4-Wheel Tender -- 6'-3", 36", R

T-81 ALCo Rotary Snow Plow -- 5', 33", R

T-86 ALCo Diesel -- 9', 36", R

T-87 Buckeye 8-Wheel Tender -- 15', 36", R

CABOOSE CHASSIS, 4-WHEEL

T-77 Short 4-Wheel -- 6 1/2', 33" (also suitable for old-time coal cars)

T-88 Regular 4-Wheel -- 13 1/2', 36"

FOUR WHEEL CABOOSE TRUCKS

T-33 Oldie Leaf Springs -- 5 1/2', 33", S

T-68 Modern Leaf Springs -- 5 1/2', 33", S

TRACTION TRUCKS

T-82 Baldwin MCB -- 7', 33", R

T-83 Taylor HLB -- 6', 33", R

T-84 St. Louis Car Co. -- 7', 33", R

T-85 Taylor ST -- 8', 33" R

While it's noted that most Red Ball truck production is of the rigid design, there's a style for virtually every application that often may not be found elsewhere, while most of the more popular designs are sprung.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 5/15/2016 9:43:30 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25462	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 5/17/2016
Subject: Re: Dockside Valve Gear

Attachments :

6462994595_5957d75f67_o.jpg

6339293460_168c72194f_o.jpg

Thanks for the post Ray.

I am no expert, but it has been my experience that the valve gear has fit many of the various Varney lil Joe chassis variations. I have several, (~30+) Varney lil Joes with full valve gear in my collection. I have seem them come with all sorts of chassis including the plastic shelled version, with non-modified full CV valve gear. Since the valve gear only mounts in two locations, (the crank pin & between the boiler/steam chest) there is no reason to modify them as these locations have basically the same styling on all the engines. The plastic boiler came with a weight inside, but it sat on the steam chest in the same manner as the previous versions, providing an area for the CV bracket to be held in place between the boiler and chest.

Here are two versions I restored previously. One of which I detailed using the box photo as inspiration.

Sincerely,

Sean

From: "eriepacific@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, May 13, 2016 6:50 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Dockside Valve Gear

Richard,

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 6/17/2015 1:06:17 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

As everyone is probably well aware, the die-cast pre-War Varney Dockside (# 415) and the early post-War Dockside (# 1551A), produced from 1946 through 1948, did not come with Central Valley Valve Gear. The same Dockside (# 1551A) was revised in 1949, with a new frame and new stampings for the crossheads and was produced into 1956. Varrney introduced Central Valley Valve Gear as an option in 1950 (Central Valley was marketing this valve gear on their own, to fit the Dockside well before this). As Varney was offering it though, and as Varney added it as an option in 1950, it appears that it was meant (by Varney) to be added to the revised version of the # 1551A, with the new frame. I don't know how much different the 1946-48 frame is as all of my Docksides are the 1949-56 version, but perhaps this is where the problem comes in, in trying to mount it to the earlier Docksides. As for the plastic-bodied Docksides, I don't know that the Central Valley Valve Gear is designed to be used on these models; it may not be if the frame is much different than on the die-cast models.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 6/16/2015 3:15:24 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

Well, there are TWO versions of the Rivarossi with valve gear. The older version has the valve rod go directly into the upper cylinder and the newer version has the rod riding in a groove in the cylinder extension, which looks much more prototypical. The older version, while it doesn't look quite as nice is actually a better operating version. I only have the newer version and it causes problems every now and then with the rod getting displaced.
I have a Varney Docksider and the Central Valley valve gear kit and I do agree that the mounting for it is a bit hokey, but I am not sure how else they could have done it without redesigning the loco itself? I still think that if you do a really nice job on the Varney and add some brass details, the Varney could end up looking very very nice.
Regards, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

Posted by: EriePacific@...

Reply via web post • Reply to sender • Reply to group • Start a New Topic • Messages in this topic (1)

@@attachment@@

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25463	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 5/17/2016
Subject: Re: Dockside Valve Gear (2 Attachments)

Sean,

Your additional info on this topic is very much appreciated. Good to know that the Central Valley full valve gear will attach to metal boiler or plastic boiler Varney Dockside versions with similar ease. I never had the plastic boiler Varney Dockside so I never really knew if things were much different with them. Thanks for the info and thanks for the two attachments; they clear things up nicely. Just though I'd mention -- since we're on this subject -- that the same 1964 (and other) Walthers catalog that includes the "Old Timer Freight Car Kits" and the "Famous Car Trucks" also includes the (Central Valley) Valve Gear, as CV catalog # K-12, for 0-4-0 Switch Engine.

Best regards,

Ray Wetzel

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25464	From: greenbrier614	Date: 5/18/2016
Subject: Re: Dockside Valve Gear

Attachments :

Varney Dockside1.JPG

Hi Sean, Ray, Vic, et al,

I also have a plastic boilered Dockside with full CV valve gear, shown in the attachment. I picked it up a few years ago at the Merchant's Square Mall in Allentown, though ironically enough it came from one of the mall's many vendors, not the train show itself. The valve gear is mounted just like my all metal version.

I thought I could fill you in on the history of the Rivarossi versions, if anyone's interested. Here goes:

Their first effort was in 1948; it was a crude looking Bakelite version with a sidewinder motor. Circa 1950 it was compelely re-tooled with the first version of the much more realistic styrene shell we're familiar with, a glossy
engineering plastic frame and the large ball bearing motor they made at the time, which barely squeezed inside the cab. It was available as a kit or RTR. The first runs had a diecast steamchest with a small integrated boiler weight only as long as the steamchest, but the casting was soon revised so that the weight filled the entire boiler. Many of these castings have since deteriorated, of course. This was the version that Lionel sold in '57.

In the early 60's they changed to the steel square U-channel frame and much more accurate plastic cylinders. They were powered by the new, more compact ball bearing motor, eliminating the 'fishbelly' in the old plastic frame beneath the cab that the larger motor required. It was used up until about 1970, and at some point the small version of their noisier square bronze bearing motor made its presence known. The squat round can motor mounted at an angle replaced both in the early 70's, and was usually the quietest of the lot, though the ball bearing motors were quite smooth. (I think the ball bearing motors started being replaced with the noisy square motor in the late 60's before the round can came along or was adapted, though I can't be certain of that.)

Addressing Vic's problem: I think you may have some iteration of the Pemco / Mehano / IHC version. They had the radius bar resting in a cylinder extension. The Rivarossis all had a valve rods that fit securely into the cylinder with no extension.

Nelson

@@attachment@@

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25465	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 5/19/2016
Subject: Re: Dockside Valve Gear [1 Attachment]

Very good information Nelson. Yes, my dockside is a Pemco, while the C16a with plastic valve cylinder extensions is a Rivarossi and the C16a with the valve rod going into the cylinder is an AHM. I will save this post for future reference.

Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of greenbrier614@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2016 2:06 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Dockside Valve Gear [1 Attachment]

[Attachment(s) from greenbrier614@... [vintageHO] included below]

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25466	From: Ross Oakland	Date: 5/22/2016
Subject: WTB - Revell HO F7 Santa Fe War Bonnet locomotive or shell

Hi group,

I am looking for a Revell HO F7 Santa Fe War Bonnet locomotive or shell. Doe not have to be complete. If someone has one they would like to sell I'd be interested.

Please contact me at:

reoakland@...

Thank you,

Ross

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25467	From: greenbrier614	Date: 5/23/2016
Subject: Mystery GN GG1 on eBay

Attachments :

Mystery GN GG1 06.jpg

Mystery GN GG1 02.jpg

This one has me baffled. Do any of you have a clue as to made the GG1 in the attached photos? From the underside it almost looks like a Fleischmann design, though everything I've seen of theirs has sidewinder motors and gear trains. The thick wheels and flanges do look European. It looks like there's a spur gears on the end of one truck, so it seems to have at least one powered truck.

I'm not bidding, but didn't include a link in case someone else is.

Nelson

@@attachment@@

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25468	From: Brad Smith	Date: 5/23/2016
Subject: Re: Mystery GN GG1 on eBay [2 Attachments]

Penn Line made a GN GG-1, I believe.

Brad

Sent from Brad's iPod

On May 23, 2016, at 9:40 PM, greenbrier614@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

This one has me baffled. Do any of you have a clue as to made the GG1 in the attached photos? From the underside it almost looks like a Fleischmann design, though everything I've seen of theirs has sidewinder motors and gear trains. The thick wheels and flanges do look European. It looks like there's a spur gears on the end of one truck, so it seems to have at least one powered truck.

I'm not bidding, but didn't include a link in case someone else is.

Nelson

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25469	From: greenbrier614	Date: 5/23/2016
Subject: Re: Mystery GN GG1 on eBay [2 Attachments]

Hi Brad,

The Penn Line GG1 was a lot more protypical, even if it was too short. This almost looks tinplate, with no center drivers.

Nelson

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25470	From: johnhutnick	Date: 5/24/2016
Subject: Re: Mystery GN GG1 on eBay [2 Attachments]

The GG1 in question is a Penn Line body placed on some other chassis. Look at Ebay 291756673422 for an excellent example of an original Great Northern.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25471	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 5/24/2016
Subject: Re: Mystery GN GG1 on eBay

Sorry to blow that theory out of the water. They don't match up. I check them out last night. In looking at both engines from underneath, at the body wall thickness, it can clearly be seen that they're different from each other. The mystery GN GG1's body casting is much thicker than the Penn Line GG1. I have several Penn Line GG1's and just now mic'd (micrometered) one of my Penn Line GG1 bodies; the body walls are approximately 0.060" -- 60/1000th (or 6/100th) of an inch thick. While we can't measure the mystery engine's body thickness, just comparing the two engines visually shows how much thicker the mystery engine's body casting is.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 5/24/2016 10:25:34 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

The GG1 in question is a Penn Line body placed on some other chassis. Look at Ebay 291756673422 for an excellent example of an original Great Northern.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25472	From: greenbrier614	Date: 5/24/2016
Subject: Re: Mystery GN GG1 on eBay

I agree Ray. I thought it was bash at first too, but the shell and frame look like they are part of one design.

I just noticed that the seller says it's about 15" long which is way longer than scale, and it looks stubby to boot. Maybe it's mislabeled S, but I've never heard of one in S scale until the American Models version. OO possibly?.

Nelson

---In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, <eriepacific@...> wrote :

Ray Wetzel

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25473	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 5/25/2016
Subject: Re: Mystery GN GG1 on eBay

Nelson,

Good thing that measurement did not escape you. While I had read the description, that 15" length went right past me. For those curious to know how long an H0 scale Penn Line GG1 is, with your message serving as a prompt to me, I just now took a ruler to one of mine and saw that the shell measures 9 1/2". This mystery GG1's pilot trucks extend out a bit from the ends of the locomotive, but not to the extent of almost half (4 3/4") the length (at a 4 1/2" difference; 9 1/2" -- 15") of a Penn Line shell -- even if this mystery engine were to full scale, which it's not since it's obviously stubby. The prototype GG1 measures 79' 6" long. I don't know exactly what that equates to in H0 scale, although I believe it comes out to a bit more than 10," as my H0 ruler tells me, but Lionel's 0 scale stubby GG1 measures 20". As we know, S scale is about half-way between these to scales, so it appears it may probably be S scale as you're suggesting, at least it would seem to have to be S scale. It's too long for 00 scale.

Ray Wetzel

In a message dated 5/25/2016 12:18:20 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:

I agree Ray. I thought it was bash at first too, but the shell and frame look like they are part of one design.

I just noticed that the seller says it's about 15" long which is way longer than scale, and it looks stubby to boot. Maybe it's mislabeled S, but I've never heard of one in S scale until the American Models version. OO possibly?.

Nelson

---In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, <eriepacific@...> wrote :

Sorry to blow that theory out of the water. They don't match up. I check them out last night. In looking at both engines from underneath, at the body wall thickness, it can clearly be seen that they're different from each other. The mystery GN GG1's body casting is much thicker than the Penn Line GG1. I have several Penn Line GG1's and just now mic'd (micrometered) one of my Penn Line GG1 bodies; the body walls are approximately 0.060" -- 60/1000th (or 6/100th) of an inch thick. While we can't measure the mystery engine's body thickness, just comparing the two engines visually shows how much thicker the mystery engine's body casting is.

Ray Wetzel

Group: vintageHO	Message: 25474	From: John Hagen	Date: 5/25/2016
Subject: Re: Mystery GN GG1 on eBay

76’8” frame length (and body length for practical purposes) equates to;

10.563 in HO

12.105 in OO

14.375 in S

79”6” over coupler faces equates to;

10.953” in HO.

12.552 in OO

14.906 in S

Prototype dimensions from Model Railroader, September 1954.

John Hagen

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2016 5:53 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Mystery GN GG1 on eBay

Nelson,

Ray Wetzel

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